1 Monday, 19th April, 1999
2 (Closed session)
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.45 a.m.
4 (The accused entered court)
13 pages 632-744 redacted – closed session
5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
13 pages 746-778 redacted – closed session
16 (Open Session)
17 (The witness entered court)
18 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a
20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Lopez-Terres.
21 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 It might be necessary, in order to facilitate the
23 testimony, that is, the resumption of the testimony for
24 Witness C, to recall, in several words, the sequence of
25 what was being said when we stopped last Friday.
1 When we ended on Friday, Witness C told us
2 that he was at the workers' centre in Novi Travnik,
3 together with nine other individuals, four of whom
4 represented the Bosnian community, five representing
5 the Croatian community in Novi Travnik, when together
6 in that centre, he was surprised, at the end of the
7 afternoon, by shooting, and from where he was, he could
8 see that there was troop movement being carried out in
9 the city. My last question that I asked the witness
10 was the following: I wanted to know at what point the
11 witness was able to get out of the workers' centre.
12 I would like first, before we give the floor
13 to the witness, I would simply like to remind Witness C
14 that out of a concern for efficiency and speed, that it
15 would be good if he were to answer the questions asked
16 to him as concisely as possible, without giving too
17 many details, and of course it will be my
18 responsibility, if necessary, to ask him for
19 clarifications that might be necessary.
20 WITNESS: Witness C (Resumed)
21 Examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:
22 Q. Witness C, you were in the workers' centre.
23 Can you tell us when it was you left that centre?
24 A. We left the workers' centre together sometime
25 around 23.00. After we had previously made telephone
1 calls, the gentlemen called the HVO and I called the
2 people at my own building, which was 60 to 70 metres
3 away from the workers' centre, so they would open the
4 door for me. So we left the workers' centre around ten
5 past 11.00 p.m., because in the meantime, in the
6 hallway, we saw Mr. Ragib Zukic, who laid there. He
7 had fainted.
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation)
9 Mr. President, Mr. Lopez-Terres. Let me intervene
10 here. You told the witness that you were going to ask
11 questions and that the questions should be answered by
12 the witness concisely. I would like you to apply from
13 the very first question on what you said.
14 You said, "What time did you leave?" He left
15 at such and such a time. If you have another question,
16 then you can move to it in order to control what the
17 testimony is, otherwise, we're going to find ourselves,
18 once again, in a narrative style, and this is also a
19 question of time. Thank you very much.
20 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Thank you
21 Your Honour.
22 Q. Witness C, you said that you left around
23 23.10 and that the other people in the Bosnian
24 delegation left the centre at the same time that you
25 did; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, we all left the workers' centre
3 Q. Among the people accompanying you that day
4 was Mr. Ragib Zukic and Mr. Salih Krnjic, the one last
5 being the president of the executive council of the
6 municipality in Novi Travnik.
7 Could you tell us what happened to
8 Mr. Zukic?
9 A. I mentioned earlier on that we heard some
10 noise around 9.30, but we were in a different room and
11 we didn't know what was going on in the hallway. Only
12 as we were leaving we saw Ragib Zukic, who was lying on
13 the floor. He had fainted. Then we took him to my
15 Q. Mr. Ragib Zukic had been attacked? Is that
16 what you're saying?
17 A. Yes. Yes. It was probably the attack around
18 9.30. We were told by the gentlemen in the other room,
19 who were sitting there, that Mr. Zlatan Civcija had
20 walked into the room together with two other men.
21 MR. STEIN: We object to the hearsay nature
22 of this declaration.
23 JUDGE MAY: I think hearsay is admissible
24 here. Again, if you could deal with it fairly shortly,
25 Mr. Lopez-Terres.
1 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation)
2 Q. Witness C, you were able to notice, see
3 yourself, that Mr. Ragib Zukic had been wounded at that
4 point; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. Yes. I can say, personally, that from
6 the workers' centre to my own building, which is 60
7 metres and then there is eight stories, Ibrahim Mujic
8 and I, and Halil Krnjic too, we really had to carry him
9 from the workers' centre to my apartment. In my
10 apartment we put him on a bed and he was still
11 unconscious. Then we washed his face in the bathroom
12 and it was only then that he came to.
13 Q. Do you know who attacked him?
14 A. I did not see for myself who had been in the
15 hallway, but Mr. Zvonko Grabovac, Blagun Lovrinovic,
16 Stipo Slipac, and Halil Krnjic told us that they walked
17 into the room where they were sitting, and we were only
18 across the hallway in another room, that Mr. Zlatan
19 Civcija walked in, together with two soldiers, and they
20 took Ragib Zukic and Salih Krnjic. Salih Krnjic we did
21 not see, but we did see Ragib Zukic in the hallway 10
22 or 12 metres after the room where we were sitting
23 and -- I mean, apart from that hallway.
24 Q. They were both HVO soldiers?
25 A. Yes. Yes. According to statement by these
1 gentlemen who were in the room who saw Zlatan Civcija
2 and these two soldiers.
3 Q. You have just told us that you brought
4 Mr. Ragib Zukic back to your house. Do you know what
5 happened to Mr. Salih Krnjic, the second person who was
6 in that delegation? Do you know what happened to him?
7 A. Only the next day at 10.00 I saw Salih Krnjic
8 in the village of Kasapovici. He told me he had been
9 taken away by Zlatan Civcija and these two soldiers to
10 a cafe called Grand, and that he was locked up in a
11 room down there. He was released on the next day
12 sometime around 10.00, according to his statement.
13 Q. Do you know who the cafe belonged to?
14 A. I had already mentioned this cafe. This is a
15 cafe owned by Mr. Marinko Marelja.
16 Q. Did Mr. Marinko Marelja, in fact, speak? Was
17 he the individual who financed the publication on the
18 book of the partition of Bosnia, of Mr. Anto Valenta?
19 A. Yes. He told me that himself. This is
20 also --
21 Q. You did, in fact, tell that to us when you
22 were testifying.
23 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) could the
24 witness have a look at the first page of the book. The
25 number of the exhibit is Z91.
1 Q. Does the first page match the book that you
2 were talking about, and do you see Mr. Marinko
3 Marelja's name in the document?
4 A. Yes, yes. I see it in the group of two
5 sponsors, Marinko Marelja and Mirko Bobas.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness C. I would like you to
7 tell us now what the consequences of this conflict were
8 for the city of Novi Travnik, that is, the conflict
9 that took place during June of 1992. Could you tell us
10 whether buildings belonging to the Territorial Defence
11 services were taken by the HVO forces during the
13 A. On that night, on the 19th of June, it was
14 practically three buildings that were attacked where
15 two units were, as well as the headquarters of the
16 Territorial Defence. This was the building where the
17 municipal headquarters of the Territorial Defence was,
18 together with the police station. The other building
19 was the elementary school, Mosa Pijade, in town, where
20 the Territorial Defence unit was. The third building
21 was part of the post office where the military police
22 of the Territorial Defence was staying. So it was
23 these three buildings that were the target of the
25 During this attack, the buildings of the
1 municipal headquarters of the Territorial Defence was
2 hit the most because it caught fire. That is to say,
3 that wing of the building where the headquarters of the
4 Territorial Defence was. The rest was demolished. The
5 elementary school building was hit pretty badly,
6 especially the windows, the glass on the windows. All
7 of that was broken.
8 But as far as I know, there was only very
9 small damage on the post office building, because its
10 location was such that it was probably difficult to
11 engage this target in a meaningful way. So that is why
12 it was only the facade that was affected and some glass
13 was broken.
14 Q. Witness C, during your interrogation or
15 examination with our investigators, you showed us that
16 the centre of Novi Travnik, and you gave us a document
17 which showed it, could you make a comment about it?
18 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) If the
19 usher would give it to the parties as well as to the
20 witness. Mr. Usher, could we use the ELMO, please?
21 Q. Thank you. Witness C, could you show us the
22 buildings that you've just spoken about, as they appear
23 on this document?
24 A. This is the building of the municipal
25 headquarters of the Territorial Defence, and the right
1 wing was the headquarters of the Territorial Defence,
2 and on the left-hand side was the Ministry of the
3 Interior. Nearby, 120 metres away, was the building of
4 the elementary school called Mosa Pijade, and this is
5 where one of the units of the Territorial Defence was.
6 Over here, in the street of Pribilovici, was
7 the entrance to the post office where the military
8 police of the Territorial Defence was located. Over
9 here on the left-hand side is the building of the workers'
10 centre that we discussed a few minutes ago.
11 These three buildings, these three locations,
12 were targets of an attack that night, and that night
13 there was practically no military line that was
14 established. The attack was aimed at these buildings,
15 and then after the units withdrew, the units that were
16 located in these buildings or, rather, when the
17 headquarters was no longer in this building, about
18 10.00 p.m. combat operations stopped. Then after that
19 at the workers' centre we could not hear shooting any
20 longer, and others who were in town also confirmed that
21 around 10.00 p.m. they last heard shooting in town.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) The
24 document is Exhibit Z1962A.
25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Could the
1 witness show us on the map where the workers' centre
3 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation)
4 Q. Witness C, would you show that to us,
6 A. This is the building of the workers' centre.
7 That is the L-shaped building that is in the immediate
8 vicinity of the municipality building where the post
9 office is too, nearby. So that is to say that this
10 dark mark is the post office building and the
11 municipality building is next to it and only about 20
12 metres away is the building of the workers' centre and
13 it's an L-shaped building. It's on the street that
14 used to be called Streliste, and then this is the
15 street of Pribilovici that goes from the elementary
16 school where the unit was.
17 Q. Witness C, after the conflict on the 19th of
18 June, 1992, was the city of Novi Travnik cut into two
19 sectors, one that was occupied by the HVO forces and
20 the other occupied by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
21 A. After this conflict there was no such
22 division of the town itself. As I said, a line was not
23 established that night in this direction where the
24 combat operations were taking place, and the next day,
25 after the negotiations at 12.00, there were no physical
1 barriers in town. Civilians could move about normally
2 and other activities, including military activities,
3 could take place normally along roads and in town and
4 along various roads going to and from Novi Travnik. So
5 after that date, in fact, the town was not partitioned,
6 if that's what you asked.
7 Q. What do you know about the HVO forces that
8 participated in the attack on those buildings on the
9 19th of June, 1992?
10 A. In terms of the members of our forces that
11 were in these buildings, that is to say, this unit that
12 was protecting this building and then this unit and
13 this school and the military police and unit at the
14 headquarters, in terms of what they knew and what they
15 saw, units that were wearing HVO and HOS uniforms took
16 part in the attack.
17 Q. As far as you know, were the HVO units and
18 HOS units from Novi Travnik or were there other forces
19 that also participated in the attack?
20 A. From a few minutes after 5.00, when the
21 meeting began on the 19th of June, I was at the
22 workers' centre, so I do not have direct information in
23 terms of what the municipal headquarters received
24 before they were leaving the building. However,
25 according to the reports that I received the next day
1 in headquarters and what I was told at the meeting that
2 I attended, the Commander of our municipal TO
3 headquarters did tell us that they received direct
4 information, that it was units from Busovaca and Vitez,
5 from that direction, that took part in the attack.
6 These are HVO units.
7 MR. STEIN: Apparently now we're into double,
8 triple, or quadruple hearsay and I therefore object and
9 ask that the matter be ruled inadmissible.
10 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) If you
11 allow me, the witness has just said that he heard this
12 from his superior. I don't really have the
13 individual -- what someone said about -- what he
14 learned is necessarily third or fourth party hearsay.
15 The fact that you heard it from somebody else.
16 MR. STEIN: On the face of the record, the
17 Commander heard it from other people. I mean, it's
18 right there.
19 (Trial Chamber deliberates)
20 JUDGE MAY: We'll admit this evidence. To
21 reiterate, the test is not, of course, whether it's
22 hearsay or whether it's double hearsay. The test is
23 whether it's likely to be reliable or not. In this
24 case, we're prepared to admit the evidence. Of course,
25 deciding what weight to give it will be entirely a
1 matter for us.
2 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Thank
4 Q. Witness C, the person who you were referring
5 to who gave you that indication, what was his name?
6 Can you tell us?
7 A. I received the information directly from the
8 commander of the municipal headquarters of the
9 Territorial Defence, Mr. Muvi Klindo (phoen). The
10 meeting was held at a private building because we had
11 to seek another location that day in the village of
12 Kasapovici, and we were talking about a street up here
13 at the end of the 4th of July. And this is the street,
14 4th of July, and that is the village of Kasapovici, and
15 that is where we found temporary location and that is
16 where I heard this information.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness C. After the conflict on
18 the 19th of June, 1992, other buildings in the Novi
19 Travnik city centre, did they find themselves occupied
20 by HVO forces also?
21 A. Before the conflict, HVO headquarters was in
22 the old hotel, as we all called it. It's the hotel
23 called Bratstvo in Novi Travnik. But before that, at
24 the new hotel, too. The Hotel Novi Travnik, that is
25 where a unit was stationed, a HOS unit, and meals were
1 prepared jointly until June for soldiers who --
2 Q. What was the name of that building, please?
3 Witness C, could you tell us the name of that building,
4 direct us to what the name of the building was, the
5 building that was occupied by the HVO forces that
6 you've referred to?
7 A. In June, at this Hotel Novi Travnik, or the
8 new hotel, as we called it, that is where an HOS unit
9 was, and then there was a kitchen there where meals
10 were prepared. And in the old hotel was the
11 headquarters. But that hotel's name was actually
12 Bratstvo. That was before the conflict.
13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Usher, you can take your
14 seat, please.
15 Witness C, after the fighting in June, 1992,
16 that you've just spoken to us about, there was another
17 set of fighting in October of 1992 in Novi Travnik
18 also. Could you tell us how many days the second
19 conflict lasted?
20 A. The second conflict in Novi Travnik, with
21 intensive combat activity, went on from the 19th of
22 October until -- around 15.00 or perhaps five minutes
23 before that, until the 26th of October, when there was
24 no longer any combat action except for an occasional
25 incident or two on the lines for the next day or two.
1 But in fact the conflict had stopped on the 26th of
2 October, 1992.
3 Q. So this conflict which lasted for -- it
4 lasted for a week. Who set it off?
5 A. The conflict started on the 19th of October,
6 around 15.00, and it was started off by the HVO units,
7 as they attacked the army positions.
8 At that time, there was one unit in the fire
9 brigade building, and because of the incident that had
10 occurred a day before that, practically along this
11 entire line where the first conflict had ended, it was
12 in that direction that they started the attack, these
13 HVO units, in the direction of the street of Kalinska
14 (phoen), or the 4th of July, as it is called. So that
15 is when the attack began in town itself, along this
17 Q. During that one-week conflict, did the HVO
18 take over new territory in the city?
19 A. Well, the conflict lasted -- the lines were
20 not changed significantly. Those that were in fact in
21 place on the 19th of October, practically in town,
22 there was hardly any change, not even by one metre,
23 except that we could say that the HVO units now had a
24 line in the direction of Streliste, because in the
25 meantime, from July until October, this facility was
1 used by them, too, and this was used as the last line
2 where the HVO units were, that is to say, where they
3 were in the October conflict and where they had set up
4 their positions.
5 Q. Could you make a comment about what you said
6 about the document that you gave to the investigators
7 during your examination, specifying the HVO force
8 positions and those positions of the army of
10 The document is Exhibit C196/2B, and I'll ask
11 the usher to distribute it.
12 JUDGE MAY: We've got it already.
13 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation)
14 Q. Very well. Since everybody has the document,
15 could you tell us, Witness C, what the different
16 parties' positions were at the time of that second
17 conflict in October, 1992?
18 A. In the town itself, fighting took place along
19 this line from the village of Pribilovici, then up and
20 down this hill where the firing range is, then a few
21 houses below it. Then the line crossed this Borisa
22 Kidrica's Street here two buildings above the
23 elementary school, then went down towards the workers'
24 centre. The workers' centre was one of the military
25 strongholds. Then the old high-rise residential
1 building I noted down here, number 1; then the hotel
2 which were the headquarters of the HVO, that is the old
3 Bratstvo Hotel; and then the line went down towards the
4 hill of Oseliste, toward the TV transmitter which is in
5 the immediate vicinity of the fire brigade centre,
6 perhaps three or four hundred metres as the crow
8 So this was the line of conflict and the line
9 of separation which persisted, I think, throughout the
10 second conflict between the 19th and 26th of October.
11 This is as far as the town is concerned, but there was
12 fighting also in other parts of the municipality.
13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Thank you.
14 Mr. Lopez-Terres, might I know what a separation line
15 means, when he says that? The separation line of
16 what? Does that mean that on each side there were
17 opposing forces? And where are they on the drawing, if
18 we might know, because we're being told about a
19 separation line and we don't really quite know what
20 that means.
21 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation)
22 Q. Could you indicate more specifically to us,
24 A. Well, the separation line is -- when I say
25 that, in this direction where the HVO forces, and this
1 is -- this marks the positions of HVO units. And at a
2 very small distance from that was the line held by the
3 forces of the BH army, because as of June, they began
4 to operate under the name of the units of the army of
6 So for comparison's sake, the line of the BH
7 army units followed -- went from the fire brigade
8 centre, then in front of this high-rise residential
9 building marked as "2". We used to call it Koriceva
10 Soliter. And then up here by Kresa, another high-rise
11 building, and down here is a row of houses to the
12 pensioners' home, which is over here, and then the line
13 of the army units went towards Isakovic hill, in this
14 direction. The distance was perhaps 50 to 60 metres,
15 the shortest one, and the biggest distance was somewhat
16 longer. I mean between the two lines, between the two
18 Q. During the week that we're speaking about,
19 that's the 19th to the 26th of October, did the HVO
20 forces begin to destroy any property belonging to
21 members of the Bosnian Croat community in Novi Travnik?
22 A. Apart from the buildings which were destroyed
23 or damaged due to the fighting along the separation
24 line between the two forces, which I showed a moment
25 ago, a number of buildings belonging to Bosniak Muslims
1 were destroyed. Those were in the part of the town
2 which we call Bare. This is the lower part. You can't
3 even see all the buildings. They are not here on the
4 drawing. But these were Ratanjska. It is right in
5 front of this INA petrol station.
6 Here is a small suburb of Novi Travnik,
7 Ratanjska. There were four or five houses there which
8 were set on fire, and then it proceeded to various
9 business outlets. Here there was a big restaurant,
10 Dallas, owned by Mr. Delic, and then a pizzeria, Duga,
11 which was owned by --
12 Q. Can you show us that on the map, please?
13 A. These buildings which were demolished were in
14 Ratanjska. It is here at the entry to Travnik. Then
15 several houses around the INA petrol station, and then
16 here the Dallas Restaurant, which was set on fire and
17 completely destroyed, owned by Mr. Delic. Here was a
18 pizzeria called Duga, which was also set alight, and
19 its owner, Mr. Krnjic, was killed next to it. Then
20 here were also several business outlets such as
21 Videotech or some shops that were demolished but not
22 torched because they were in large residential
23 buildings. There was the Videotech Lejla was
24 demolished, particularly. Here in the town itself, on
25 the Marshal Tito Street, roughly the level of the post
1 office, about here, was a kebab restaurant owned by
2 Karalic, and then a house owned by Mr. Kopcic was set
3 on fire, and this is as for the suburb or, rather, this
4 part from the town.
5 This was the part of the town where most of
6 the houses or business outlets of Muslims were
7 demolished or burned down.
8 Q. As regards these properties, was there any
9 strategic or military interest of any type?
10 A. The nearest building that was destroyed was
11 behind the first -- behind the front line of the HVO,
12 some two or three hundred metres. All the other
13 buildings are deep in the rear, that is, some seven or
14 eight hundred metres from the front line. These
15 buildings at the entrance into Novi Travnik must have
16 been about a kilometre away from the line occupied by
17 the HVO units, so these were simply either residential
18 units or were some restaurants or shops.
19 Q. They were civilian properties, then; is that
20 what you're saying? As you did just a while ago in
21 respect of the first attack on the HVO forces who
22 participated in those attacks in the week of October,
23 1992, could you comment about that, too?
24 A. In contrast with the first attack, which to
25 us in the municipal Territorial Defence headquarters
1 was sudden and we could not have predicted it, the
2 October attack on the HVO units, judging by the manner
3 in which it was prepared, the preparations and all the
4 other elements, we could see on a regular basis --
5 there was an incident on the day before, that is, on
6 the 18th of October, that is when the incident started,
7 we could foresee that there would be an HVO attack on
8 the Armija units and therefore we behaved more
9 cautiously and we tried to gather some facts.
10 We knew that the HVO forces were engaged from
11 Novi Travnik on the first day, on the 19th of October,
12 and from Vitez on the 19th of October, and on the basis
13 of information we received at the time from the
14 regional headquarters of the Territorial Defence in
15 Zenica, that on the 20th of October, in the direction
16 of Novi Travnik, units from Busovaca passed that way.
17 A day or two later, we learned, rather we
18 received the information from the regional TO
19 headquarters in Zenica that the attack was also
20 participated by Kiseljak units, that is, the HVO units
21 from Kiseljak.
22 I'm referring to the information, the
23 official information we received from our command at
24 the time, from our superiors at the time.
25 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Thank
1 you. Perhaps one point in respect of one of the
2 previous questions that I asked the witness. I asked
3 the witness whether the different property destroyed
4 was property belonging to civilians only. I understood
5 that he had said "Yes," but I don't see that in the
7 JUDGE MAY: The point is noted.
8 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation)
9 Q. Witness C, how did the second conflict in
10 October come to its end?
11 A. Officially or, rather, from the superior
12 command we received the order sometime on the 25th, in
13 the evening hours of the 25th, that the conflict
14 between the Armija of the BH army and HVO units had to
15 be put to an end. Then the Commander of the municipal
16 headquarters of the armed forces of Novi Travnik,
17 Mr. Refik Lendo, issued an order to terminate all
18 fighting since that night there was again major
20 This order was repeated in the morning,
21 around 9.00 on the 26th of October, and by noon, with
22 the exception of incidents at some other parts of the
23 land, but at noon the fighting between the units which
24 took part in the conflict stopped.
25 Q. Were the negotiations between the
1 representatives of the Bosnian and Croatian
3 A. I'm not aware if there were any negotiations
4 before that or if those were the orders from commands
5 for either of the components. I mentioned that we
6 received --
7 Q. Of subsequent negotiations, that is,
8 subsequent to the conflict. Could you speak to us
9 about those negotiations?
10 A. The negotiations or, rather, talks with an
11 analysis of causes of the second conflict between the
12 HVO units and the BH army in Novi Travnik took place
13 several days later, after the complete termination of
14 hostilities and after the joint commissions visited the
15 grounds along the separation line both in the town and
16 outside it, and assured themselves that the trenches
17 were filled in, that the units were not there, that the
18 mines had been removed if there were any mines placed.
19 Normally, after that the commission finished
20 their work, there were talks about the causes of the
21 conflict in Novi Travnik, and these talks took place --
22 according to my notes, they took place on the 5th of
23 November, 1992 in the Novi Travnik Hotel.
24 Q. Were you a participant in those
1 A. Yes. At the meeting of the municipal
2 headquarters the evening before, I was designated,
3 together with the Commander, Mevludin Berberovic, to
4 represent the municipal headquarters in the talks on
5 the causes of the conflict in Novi Travnik, which was
6 held in Hotel Novi Travnik. I went to Novi Travnik
7 Hotel. I and Mr. Berberovic went on foot from the
8 secondary school building, which is here. We walked
9 through the town to the building of the Novi Travnik
11 The Commander Refik Lendo took a vehicle
12 which belonged to Mr. Arif Pasalic, who drove to the
13 headquarters building and picked him up, and they
14 travelled together to the Hotel Novi Travnik where the
15 talks were held.
16 Q. Is either one or both of the negotiations --
17 I'm sorry, in respect of the two -- one, or the other,
18 or both of the accused, were they involved in the
19 negotiations as well?
20 A. In these negotiations, as far as I can
21 remember, only Mr. Kordic participated, but I did not
22 take it down if Mr. Cerkez took part in these
24 Q. Do you remember as what Mr. Dario Kordic was
25 a participant in the negotiations, what his status
2 A. I do not remember the positions of offices
3 held by individual participants at the meeting, because
4 there were several representatives who did not come
5 from the territory of Novi Travnik. They came from a
6 wider area of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I already
7 mentioned one of them. That was Asif Pasalic. I know
8 there was Mr. Srecko Vucina. Bozo Rajic was also
9 there, and he even chaired the meeting that took place
10 in the Novi Travnik Hotel.
11 Q. Was that the first time that you met
12 Mr. Dario Kordic?
13 A. Yes. I had not met him before that, directly
14 or personally, or after that.
15 Q. So that was the only time that you met him.
16 What did the negotiations end with?
17 A. To be quite frank, these negotiations did not
18 end up in any specific conclusions. Nothing particular
19 was concluded by that meeting, nor were any duties or
20 obligations laid down. Each was a kind of a
21 conversation. There were talks trying to analyse the
22 causes of the conflict, and each one of those present
23 voiced his opinion or his perception of this.
24 After a number of interventions by
25 Mr. Marinko Marelja, who also attended this meeting,
1 which was far from convincing, and the abusive language
2 he used when he addressed Mr. Refik Lendo or myself,
3 the meeting ended without any specific result. We
4 spent another hour in that hotel. We had lunch and
5 then we parted company.
6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, when you come
7 to a convenient moment, we'll adjourn. Is that a
8 convenient moment for you?
9 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Yes.
10 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn until
11 tomorrow morning.
12 Witness C, could you be back, please, at 9.45
13 tomorrow morning, when I hope we will finish your
15 THE WITNESS: I will, Your Honours. I will
16 be here whenever you tell me to be.
17 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd
18 like to go now.
19 (The witness withdrew)
20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, do you have a matter
21 you want us to consider?
22 MR. NICE: Yes. It won't take very long.
23 Before I come to that, it might assist, in relation to
24 calling the next witness, if we know, A, if the Defence
25 are going to make any application to adjourn
1 cross-examination of this witness, and if not, how long
2 their cross-examination is likely to take.
3 JUDGE MAY: I had not anticipated the former
4 application. Can we know how long it will take?
5 MR. STEIN: We're prepared to go forward, but
6 we're not prepared to tell you how long because we just
7 don't know.
8 JUDGE MAY: Can the witness --
9 MR. NICE: I think I'll have the second
10 witness available as from the afternoon, cancellable if
11 it's clear towards the end of the morning that he may
12 not be required.
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, or to be more optimistic, be
14 available on the phone before then if need be.
15 MR. NICE: Certainly. Yes.
16 What I seek is either an order or, in any
17 event, approval, as it relates to Rule 90(E), which
18 effectively permits investigators to be present without
19 prejudice to the Rule that, in general, people who may
20 become witnesses shouldn't attend any parts of the
21 proceedings. It's a combination of Rule 90(D) and
23 I would seek not to have just one
24 investigator as the investigator in charge of the case
25 but two, because this is a very large case and there
1 are two investigators in charge of it at the moment. I
2 will be assisted by their being able to be present in
3 Court, and by "in Court," I mean not just outside but
4 in Court during closed sessions, where there are closed
5 sessions, notwithstanding the possibility that they may
6 have to be called in due course. It's not necessarily
7 expected that they will have to be called, but any
8 investigator, in a case like this, is always a possible
9 candidate for a witness and, I think, they've both been
11 The position is that it can be extremely
12 helpful to have an investigator present in Court from
13 time to time. It's particularly helpful for me when
14 although I have a number of other team members, they're
15 not by any means going to be here all the time because
16 there's a great deal of other work to be done on a
17 continuing basis.
18 Therefore, I would seek the court's general
19 approval to my having these two named investigators in
20 Court if and when I need them to be here, not
21 withstanding the possibility that I may need to call
22 them later.
23 JUDGE MAY: Any objection?
24 MR. STEIN: Your Honour, I object only if the
25 witnesses are to be called later. The possibility of
1 them styling their testimony is extant.
2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, do you want to add
4 MR. KOVACIC: No, Your Honour. I'm not
5 sure. I would like to investigate that a little bit
6 more, I mean, the Rules and practice, and then to say
7 what I mean.
8 JUDGE MAY: I can tell you what Rules are.
9 The Rules permit this to occur, in the sense that
10 Rule 90(E) permits an investigator not to be precluded
11 from being called as a witness on the ground that he or
12 she has been present in the courtroom during the
13 proceedings. I can tell you that the practice, as far
14 as I know, is to allow the investigator to be present.
15 It applies to both sides, of course. It
16 doesn't only apply to one side. It applies to the
17 investigators for both sides.
18 Certainly, as far as I know, it has been the
19 practice, in any case that I've been involved in, that
20 the investigator has been allowed in to assist the
21 party and that hasn't been a bar to the investigator
22 giving evidence.
23 MR. STEIN: May we at least know who they
25 MR. NICE: Terry Cameron and Sue Ellen Taylor
1 are their names.
2 JUDGE MAY: We shall permit it. 9.45
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
5 at 4.40 p.m., to be reconvened on
6 Tuesday, the 20th day of April, 1999
7 at 9:45 a.m.