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  1. 1 Tuesday, 27th April, 1999

    2 --- Upon commencing at 9:47 a.m.

    3 (Open session)

    4 (The accused entered court)

    5 (The witness entered court)

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    7 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario

    8 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.


    11 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers

    12 [Witness answers through interpreter]

    13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Cicak.

    14 A. Good morning. How are you today?

    15 Q. Fine, thank you. We were just going through

    16 the chronological documents that you had been shown by

    17 the Prosecution during your examination in chief, and

    18 we had just finished going through the document that

    19 was marked D7, or Z7, minutes of the meeting of the

    20 HDZ, Travnik region, on July the 21st, 1991. I think

    21 that I finished going over the questions that I had for

    22 you at that document, and I thank you for your answers.

    23 A. I just (inaudible).

    24 Q. The next document, Mr. Cicak, that you were

    25 shown by the Prosecution chronologically was a document

  2. 1 that was marked Z8, dated July 30th, 1991, and I wonder

    2 if the usher would just put that in front of you.

    3 You have the document, sir?

    4 A. Yes, thank you.

    5 Q. All right. And as I understand it, it was

    6 Mr. Anto Valenta that called this meeting for July the

    7 30th, 1999. Did you know anything about that meeting

    8 before it was called by Mr. Valenta?

    9 A. I knew that a meeting was being prepared, but

    10 you forget one thing: This meeting was called on the

    11 30th of July, 1991, at 20.00 hours, and that meant that

    12 I could not attend the meeting at that time because I

    13 am rather far away from the place of venue of such

    14 meeting, so that all the meetings that took place at

    15 8.00 or 9.00 or 10.00 in the evening, I simply could

    16 not attend them.

    17 Q. All right. So you were not present at this

    18 meeting, I take it?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. All right. You can see that Mr. Kordic is

    21 listed as one of the many attendees at this meeting,

    22 and he's listed on page 1; right?

    23 A. Yes. All the presidents of all municipal

    24 boards of the HDZ in the region, in the Lasva region,

    25 were invited to the meeting.

  3. 1 Q. All right. And one of the agenda items to be

    2 discussed was a public HDZ panel to be convened in the

    3 town of Vitez on August the 4th, 1991, just a few days

    4 later. Do you see that, sir?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. If you take a look at page 2 of this

    7 document, item number 2, the recommendation was that

    8 the panel be regional in character and that Croatians

    9 as well as Muslim people would be invited to take part

    10 in it. Do you see that?

    11 A. I do, yes.

    12 Q. Did you attend that panel discussion when it

    13 was ultimately convened?

    14 A. I believe I did.

    15 Q. All right. One of the main themes of

    16 discussion was the question of whether recruits should

    17 continue to be sent to the JNA army. Do you remember

    18 discussing that particular subject?

    19 A. Yes, I remember it. It was general agreement

    20 not only by political parties but also of the citizens

    21 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was that young men from

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, regardless of their ethnic origin,

    23 should not be sent to the regular troops as recruits to

    24 the Yugoslav People's Army.

    25 Q. There was vigorous opposition, both amongst

  4. 1 the Croatian Community and the Muslim community in the

    2 Travnik region, to the proposition that recruits should

    3 continue to be sent to an army that was actively waging

    4 a war of aggression against neighbouring republics;

    5 isn't that correct?

    6 A. Yes, there was fierce opposition. I believe

    7 that young men followed the advice and did not accept

    8 to be recruited.

    9 Q. Would it be fair to say, Mr. Cicak, that you

    10 were an advocate of that particular recommendation,

    11 that young men in the area should refrain from

    12 volunteering their services to the JNA?

    13 A. I was not directly involved in this business,

    14 because I had other duties in the municipal

    15 organisation of the HDZ, but I would have done the same

    16 as others. That is, I would have resisted and not

    17 allowed young men from Bosnia-Herzegovina to

    18 participate in any aggressive action against

    19 neighbouring republics.

    20 Q. Even if the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    21 actually recommended the conscription of recruits into

    22 the JNA; right?

    23 A. I think that the government of

    24 Bosnia-Herzegovina would never take such a decision.

    25 Q. All right. Now, item number 3 of the

  5. 1 discussion items here is that support should be given

    2 to an HDZ initiative to set up a new Croatian

    3 government which would consist of Croatian experts

    4 regardless of their political orientation. Do you see

    5 that?

    6 A. Yes, very well.

    7 Q. But that reference is to the new government

    8 that was to be set up in Croatia after the declaration

    9 of independence by Croatia in June of 1991, following

    10 the referendum a month earlier; isn't that correct?

    11 A. I am quite sure that it refers to the

    12 government of the Republic of Croatia.

    13 Q. That's the point I was making. I think that

    14 we can now pass on to the provision of item 3 that

    15 says: "Because of its geographic position and because

    16 it is a centre of the district, municipal HDZ board in

    17 Busovaca is appointed headquarters of the Travnik

    18 regional community." Do you see that?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And indeed, sir, after this particular

    21 meeting, further meetings of the Travnik regional

    22 community were actually held in Busovaca, the town of

    23 Busovaca; isn't that right?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Now, if you take a look at the final portion

  6. 1 of these minutes, sir, a recommendation was made by the

    2 Travnik regional community to both the presidency of

    3 the HDZ in Bosnia and Herzegovina and also to the

    4 regional War Council to start working on a proposal of

    5 plans to protect the entire population -- or "the

    6 population," it says -- from the danger of war that

    7 could erupt at any moment. Do you see that?

    8 A. Yes, I can see that.

    9 Q. That was a position that you agreed with

    10 too? I mean, it was being actively discussed amongst

    11 the political leadership in the HDZ at that time,

    12 wasn't it, sir?

    13 A. Yes, I did, except that I requested that from

    14 the president of the presidency, all active ministers,

    15 deputy ministers, and other people, take an active part

    16 in the protection of Bosnia-Herzegovina against

    17 military operations. Unfortunately, I failed. And

    18 then this is not the duty of the HDZ, as a party.

    19 Q. Well, the comment that is made right at the

    20 end of the minutes is prescient, is it not, Mr. Cicak,

    21 because just a few days later, there was a massive

    22 Serbian military attack on the city of Vukovar in

    23 eastern Croatia; is that right?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And just so that we can set the historical

  7. 1 context for Their Honours' understanding, as of this

    2 time, Croatia was still not an independent country, was

    3 it? Do you recall my --

    4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter says, "Sorry,

    5 we could not hear the answer."

    6 Q. Sorry, I spoke over you, sir. My question

    7 was, "As of the time of these minutes, Croatia was

    8 still not an independent country?" I think you said

    9 you agreed with that.

    10 A. Just a moment. Croatia had a somewhat longer

    11 period during which it was -- its independence was

    12 recognised, so I do not know which date you have in

    13 mind. There is the 25th of June, when it proclaimed

    14 its independence. Then it was postponed until the 8th

    15 of October, '91. Then on the 15th of January, '92, it

    16 was recognised by the European Union and only after

    17 that by the United Nations, so it was quite a long

    18 period of time.

    19 Q. Right, that's the point I was making, and I

    20 think you agree with me. The first step towards the

    21 realisation of independence for the Republic of Croatia

    22 was its declaration of independence on June the 25th, I

    23 believe, of 1991; is that right?

    24 A. Yes, the 25th of June, 1991.

    25 Q. Pursuant to an agreement reached at the town

  8. 1 of Brioni, I believe, sir, that the Croatian

    2 authorities agreed to delay the carrying into effect of

    3 that declaration of independence until October the 8th

    4 of 1991; right?

    5 A. Until the 8th of October, 1991.

    6 Q. Precisely. And as of that time, it was still

    7 uncertain whether the international community would

    8 actually recognise Croatia as an independent country?

    9 There was some uncertainty in that regard; don't you

    10 agree?

    11 A. I agree, and I could not understand why the

    12 international community was procrastinating with it.

    13 Q. Right, sir. But whatever the reason for that

    14 procrastination, I believe the first country to

    15 recognise the independence of Croatia was actually

    16 Germany on Christmas Eve of 1992. Is that consistent

    17 with your recollection?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Then the international community actually

    20 recognised the independence of Croatia following upon

    21 the German recognition on January the 15th of 1992,

    22 which was one day before the speech that you talked

    23 about in your direct examination in Busovaca; is that

    24 correct?

    25 A. At that meeting, I did not take the floor,

  9. 1 but I did say something during a discussion with the

    2 officials of the Tribunal.

    3 Q. Yes, sir, I agree with that. But the point I

    4 was making was that that speech occurred just one day

    5 after the recognition of Croatia as an independent

    6 country by the international community at large.

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Now, to get back to these minutes, Exhibit

    9 Z8, as of their date, July the 30th, 1991,

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina was still one of the constituent

    11 republics left in what used to be the Socialist Federal

    12 Republic of Yugoslavia; is that correct?

    13 A. You mean the rest of the Socialist Federal

    14 Republic of Yugoslavia?

    15 Q. That's exactly right, and you agree with

    16 that?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. This is, just to set the general stage here,

    19 this is certainly a time of turmoil and confusion,

    20 politically and militarily, in the former Yugoslavia,

    21 is it not, sir? You lived through it. You can

    22 certainly tell us that.

    23 A. Yes, with pleasure, if necessary.

    24 Q. Well, I'll tell you what, let's go over to

    25 the next exhibit that the Prosecutor showed you,

  10. 1 Exhibit Z9, which is a copy of the minutes of the HDZ

    2 of the Travnik region of August the 13th, 1991.

    3 JUDGE MAY: I have Z11.

    4 MR. SAYERS: Is it Z11? I'm sorry. My

    5 apologies to the Trial Chamber for misidentifying the

    6 exhibit.

    7 Q. You have Exhibit Z11 in front of you,

    8 Mr. Cicak?

    9 A. I don't know what these markings are, but

    10 could you give me the date and what it is about?

    11 Q. Yes, sir. It says, "August the 13th, 1991,"

    12 and it appears to be a copy of the minutes of a meeting

    13 of the HDZ for the Travnik region on that date.

    14 Do you remember testifying about this

    15 particular document, sir?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. You were one of the seven attendees at this

    18 meeting from the Busovaca opstina; right?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. This session was actually held in Busovaca,

    21 was it not?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. It was attended by Mr. Mate Boban, as one of

    24 the guests --

    25 A. Yes, he was present. Yes, Mr. Mate Boban was

  11. 1 present, Professor Martin Udovicic and Dr. Vjekoslav

    2 Barac. They were not guests there, they were part of

    3 the HDZ B and H, and it was only natural for them to

    4 attend that meeting.

    5 Q. All right. Now, on the subject of Mr. Martin

    6 Udovicic, there isn't any doubt he was present at this

    7 meeting in Busovaca; right?

    8 A. (No audible response)

    9 Q. So he didn't object to having the Travnik

    10 regional community meetings moved from Travnik to

    11 Busovaca, did he, sir?

    12 A. I have my particular opinion on that. If

    13 you're interested, I can tell you. If not, then I

    14 won't say anything about it.

    15 Q. Well, you said, at page 1194 of your first

    16 day of testimony, that it would be inconceivable that a

    17 former president who headed the regional community of

    18 Travnik, that is, Professor Martin Udovicic, should

    19 leave the leadership of the regional community and its

    20 movement to Busovaca. Do you remember that testimony?

    21 A. Absolutely.

    22 Q. Nonetheless, here is Mr. Udovicic in Busovaca

    23 for a meeting of the Travnik regional community on

    24 August 13th of 1991, and you were there; right?

    25 A. Yes.

  12. 1 Q. Now, the first item on the agenda, Mr. Cicak,

    2 was an analysis of the decisions reached by the main

    3 board of the HDZ BiH on --

    4 A. May I add a word to your former question,

    5 because I did not complete my answer? If I may, Your

    6 Honour.

    7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    8 A. Mr. Martin Udovicic and Mr. Vjekoslav Barac

    9 were impotent -- were quite helpless in the Travnik

    10 region as against Mr. Kordic and his mentor, Mate

    11 Boban, because Mr. Mate Boban, together with Kordic,

    12 was asking that the regional community be transferred

    13 to Busovaca. So that Mr. Martin Udovicic, who is a

    14 very noble man, a professor and educated, Dr. Vjekoslav

    15 Barac, who is a physician, another noble man, were

    16 simply helpless before that, and they could not stop

    17 something like that.

    18 Q. Thank you. Now, isn't it true that it was at

    19 this meeting, this was the only time that you ever

    20 actually met Mate Boban in the town of Busovaca?

    21 A. No. I met Mr. Mate Boban several times, but

    22 we were never on good terms. So when we met in

    23 Busovaca for the first time, we dissented right away,

    24 that is, as far as the interpretation of the

    25 democracy. I saw it one way and he saw it the other

  13. 1 way. He embraced a very national -- rather

    2 nationalistic perception of Croats, and I embraced a

    3 democratic solution to problems with all the

    4 ethnicities living in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And that

    5 conflict lasted until his departure; that is, our

    6 misunderstandings.

    7 Q. Let me focus you back on the question I asked

    8 you, sir, if you could just for a minute.

    9 Isn't it true that you only ever met Mr. Mate

    10 Boban once in the town of Busovaca? You may have had

    11 meetings with him in other places, but you only met him

    12 once in Busovaca?

    13 A. No, several times in Busovaca, not once only,

    14 and that was not the first time.

    15 Q. All right. Now, the first item on the

    16 agenda, as I tried to ask you earlier, was an analysis

    17 of the decisions of the main board of the HDZ BiH

    18 reached on August the 6th of 1991? You see that, don't

    19 you?

    20 A. You mean item 1, "Conclusions"?

    21 Q. No, item 1 of the agenda.

    22 A. Sorry. Yes.

    23 Q. You weren't actually present at the meeting

    24 at the main board held on that date, were you?

    25 A. No, I was not, but I spoke to the members of

  14. 1 the main board about those conclusions.

    2 Q. All right. Did you ever see a copy of the

    3 minutes of that particular meeting, sir?

    4 A. I think that nobody in the HDZ ever saw

    5 original minutes of any meeting at all. They always

    6 received minutes made by Mr. Kostroman.

    7 Q. Did you ever see a copy of the minutes of the

    8 August the 6th, 1991 meeting, sir, of the main board of

    9 the HDZ BiH?

    10 A. I have to think about which meeting it was,

    11 and I can't really know offhand which meeting it was.

    12 Q. Fair enough.

    13 A. Do you mean that?

    14 Q. How do you mean? Well, let's move on.

    15 Busovaca is actually one of 14 separate municipalities

    16 that was represented by elected representatives at this

    17 meeting; isn't that right?

    18 A. Busovaca was represented by a representative

    19 or rather since it happened in Busovaca, there were

    20 several members of the municipal board. Normally,

    21 there is one representative attending such meetings on

    22 behalf -- at the regional community.

    23 Q. Right, but there were 14 separate

    24 municipalities represented here. That's the simple

    25 question that I'm asking. That's pretty obvious, isn't

  15. 1 it?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. If you take a look at the decision, sir, just

    4 a few that I would like to discuss with you that I

    5 don't believe were covered by the Prosecutor when they

    6 covered this document with you, item number 2 states

    7 that the decisions of the Travnik regional community

    8 are supported by all municipality boards of the HDZ

    9 BiH. Do you see that?

    10 A. I do.

    11 Q. That includes the decision to move the

    12 Travnik regional community headquarters to Busovaca;

    13 right?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. All right. Now let's turn to paragraph 3.

    16 I'm not sure I understood your testimony during direct

    17 examination. This paragraph states that the behaviour

    18 of Stjepan Kljujic, the president of the HDZ BiH, while

    19 he conducted the session of the HDZ BiH main board on 6

    20 August, 1991, is judged as unbefitting and

    21 unacceptable.

    22 A. An excellent question. Both questions are

    23 very excellent. Namely, if you look at it a little

    24 bit, if you're an analyst and if you engage in

    25 politics, you will see that these meetings, which are

  16. 1 of vital importance for Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Stjepan

    2 Kljujic has not been invited to them. That is, the

    3 president of the party, the president of the party is

    4 not invited to a meeting which is of utmost importance

    5 for Bosnia-Herzegovina, and secondly, the general

    6 secretary, Mr. Markesic, is not invited to that meeting

    7 either. The meeting is conducted by an ordinary

    8 administrative clerk, Ignac Kostroman, so that all

    9 this, if you look at it in the light of all the other

    10 developments, means that the 13th of August, 1991, was

    11 the beginning of dismissal of Mr. Kljujic from the post

    12 of presidency and the move, the transfer, the shift of

    13 the presidency of the HDZ to Herzegovina.

    14 Q. Mr. Kljujic was a pretty popular character,

    15 wasn't he?

    16 A. Well, he was quite popular. He remained

    17 popular, and he's still popular.

    18 Q. In fact, he didn't like working very hard,

    19 did he, sir?

    20 A. That is his own personal affair.

    21 Q. Well, that was your personal opinion, too,

    22 wasn't it? That's what you told the Prosecutors four

    23 or five months ago.

    24 A. Since we are good friends, I don't know. I

    25 didn't realise that the Prosecutor would be registering

  17. 1 every little word I said. We are close personal

    2 friends. I know how he behaves and he knows how I

    3 behave, so from now on I'm going to watch what I'm

    4 saying.

    5 Q. You did tell the Prosecutors just four or

    6 five months ago, on page 3 of your statement, that even

    7 though he was a media personality and charming, he

    8 worked very little; right?

    9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, I think the witness

    10 has answered that question.

    11 MR. SAYERS: I fully concur, Your Honour, and

    12 I'll move on swiftly.

    13 Q. Turning to the subparagraph (a) of main

    14 paragraph 4 of this document, sir, a proposal was made

    15 at this meeting that you attended, the HDZ BiH

    16 secretariat should "solicit resumes from distinguished

    17 Croat intellectuals in order to establish proper

    18 records on potential cadres." You certainly agreed

    19 with that proposition, did you not?

    20 A. I absolutely disagreed. This is a

    21 continuation of the communist practice of registering

    22 persons who are positive and others who are not

    23 positive, those who are good and those who are bad.

    24 However, this point 4 is a continuation of points 2 and

    25 3 that I talked about, that is to say, a complete

  18. 1 separation of the centre of the HVO, Mr. Kljujic and

    2 Mr. Markesic, and again, making new files and being

    3 annexed to Herceg-Bosna, that is to say Mate Boban and

    4 Dario Kordic, who would go on leading the HVO and the

    5 southern part. But Posavina, the northern part, was

    6 much smarter, and they didn't allow others to interfere

    7 in their own affairs.

    8 Q. Well, let's turn to paragraph 7 of this

    9 document. The regional community boards were

    10 instructed, and other boards were encouraged, "to make

    11 contact with Mate Boban to familiarise themselves with

    12 the superior level of organisation in certain

    13 Herzegovinian municipality boards and to exchange

    14 useful information in the new situation." Do you see

    15 that?

    16 A. Very good. Very good. You put your

    17 questions very well. This is a continuation of points

    18 2, 3, and 4. Now we have point 7. So this is an

    19 obvious example of the fact that everything had to be

    20 concentrated on Mr. Mate Boban. This is a telling

    21 example of how this was done. Everything was supposed

    22 to be oriented towards Mr. Mate Boban. You put your

    23 questions remarkably well.

    24 Q. Thank you. And actually, Mr. Udovicic was

    25 the gentleman that suggested this, and that vote was --

  19. 1 a vote was taken on that suggestion, and it was

    2 approved at the meeting that you attended; isn't that

    3 right?

    4 A. Yes. After that, Mr. Udovicic moved away

    5 with his entire family. He went to Zagreb, and that is

    6 where he lives until the present day, and I think that

    7 he stopped all HDZ activities, and most probably he

    8 doesn't even want to remember having belonged to the

    9 HDZ, ever.

    10 Q. So after August the 13th, 1991, Mr. Udovicic

    11 was off to Zagreb and didn't attend any further

    12 meetings of the party political organisation in the

    13 Travnik region?

    14 A. Please, don't take my word for every date

    15 that is mentioned. I don't know whether he left on

    16 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday. I

    17 don't know whether he left at 3.00, 4.00, or 5.00.

    18 Please don't insist on these minute details.

    19 Q. Let's turn our attention to paragraph 11 of

    20 the document, where the declaration is made that "It is

    21 indispensable to activate our Security Council

    22 immediately because there can be no delay. Any delay

    23 will cause unforeseeable consequences for the Croatian

    24 people. "

    25 That was one of the proposals that was

  20. 1 discussed and agreed upon at this meeting that you

    2 attended; isn't that correct?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Indeed, if you take a look at paragraph 13, a

    5 recommendation is made by the Travnik regional

    6 community that the presidency should take a clear stand

    7 on the participation of Croatian clubs in sports events

    8 because of recent Greater Serbian propaganda in that

    9 milieu. Do you see that?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. You agreed with that, didn't you?

    12 A. Absolutely. The point was that there were

    13 matches that were played between the national teams of

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia, and there were certain

    15 incidents, and we don't want to spread this to the

    16 other state, but this did take place in the other state

    17 too. So I think that this is in the context of the

    18 right kind of policy that should be pursued, a

    19 democratic policy, and that is to say to avoid

    20 incidents that certain persons are prone to.

    21 Q. And indeed, that's the essence of democracy,

    22 isn't it? Making recommendations, having the right to

    23 make recommendations which may or may not be accepted

    24 according to the will of the majority?

    25 A. I don't understand what you're referring to.

  21. 1 JUDGE MAY: Nor do I. Let's move on.

    2 MR. SAYERS: Coming to the next exhibit --

    3 A. If you don't understand him, what's left for

    4 me?

    5 JUDGE MAY: Now, don't comment, please,

    6 Mr. Cicak, and we'll move more quickly.

    7 MR. SAYERS:

    8 Q. Moving to the next exhibit --

    9 A. I wish we would move faster.

    10 JUDGE MAY: We will move faster, if,

    11 Mr. Cicak, you do not comment on the evidence. Could

    12 you remember, please, that you are here to give

    13 evidence, not to comment. Counsel is here asking you

    14 questions, that's his job, and if you don't comment, we

    15 will move more quickly.

    16 Yes, Mr. Sayers. Can we move on? We've only

    17 dealt with two documents in three-quarters of an hour.

    18 MR. SAYERS: I'm very sorry for that, Your

    19 Honour, and I'll try to move much more quickly.

    20 Turning to Exhibit Z12, which is the minutes

    21 of a meeting dated August 23rd, 1991 -- and if I may,

    22 just for the Court's easy reference, I've prepared a

    23 graphic organisational chart of the way that the HDZ

    24 looked, with all of its municipalities, as of the date

    25 of this particular document.

  22. 1 All right, Mr. Cicak, trying to move right

    2 along here, this was a meeting of the -- this

    3 represents conclusions reached by the presidency of the

    4 HDZ BiH dated August the 23rd, 1991. Correct?

    5 A. I don't know. This paper was sent by

    6 Mr. Kostroman. He was not authorised to do that. But

    7 let's accept it as such.

    8 Q. It reflects the division, organisational

    9 division of the party in Bosnia-Herzegovina into nine

    10 separate regions, doesn't it?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Those nine separate regions covered 70

    13 separate municipalities; right?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Busovaca was just one of those 70

    16 municipalities; right?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. You were just one of three vice-presidents of

    19 that municipality at this time, August of 1991; that's

    20 fair to say, is it not?

    21 Is that fair to say, sir?

    22 A. At first glance one could say so. However, I

    23 was equally important not only as the vice-president

    24 but also as a prominent citizen in all the

    25 municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I mentioned

  23. 1 earlier on that there were 110 municipalities in

    2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. You say there were 70-something

    3 municipalities, but Croats lived in all 110

    4 municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I took care

    5 of them. I was concerned about their safety, security,

    6 their work, their well-being.

    7 Q. Thank you. Now let's turn to the next

    8 exhibit, if I may, Exhibit Z13.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Before we do that, we need a

    10 number for this structure. What is the number,

    11 please?

    12 THE REGISTRAR: The number is D11/1.

    13 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Judge Bennouna's microphone isn't

    15 working -- is now working.

    16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Sayers,

    17 the witness has just told us that he was not only the

    18 vice-president of the regional community of Travnik,

    19 but that he was also an eminent personality charged

    20 with intervening and protecting Croats,

    21 the Croats in all the other municipalities. I think we

    22 were told that there were a lot of municipalities

    23 there. Could we know, on the basis of what Mr. Cicak

    24 was authorised to protect eminent personalities, those

    25 110 people, I mean, he was the vice-president of the

  24. 1 Travnik community as we see here but under what

    2 authority did he act in that respect.

    3 MR. SAYERS: I think that is a very excellent

    4 question, Judge Bennouna, and I just open the floor up

    5 to Mr. Cicak to answer by what authority he purported

    6 to represent the Croatian people at this time.

    7 A. At that time, no authority was needed. I did

    8 not represent the Croat people. I was talking about

    9 the reputation I enjoyed among the Croat people and not

    10 only among the Croat people but also among the Muslim

    11 and the Serb peoples. That is to say, that I

    12 communicated in all these municipalities, and it was

    13 not attached to a special mandate or office, but

    14 citizens from various municipalities wherever I

    15 appeared received me as if I were one of their own.

    16 They talked to me, they talked about the problems that

    17 were the most topical at that point and I could move

    18 from one part of Bosnia-Herzegovina to another part of

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, talk to citizens of all ethnic

    20 backgrounds without any danger, without any mandate,

    21 without any recommendations, and I could present those

    22 conclusions at any meeting of the Croatian Democratic

    23 Union or other associations wherever I might have

    24 been.

    25 MR. SAYERS: And, Judge Bennouna, there was

  25. 1 one premise to your question which I think was not

    2 factually correct although it's easy to be confused.

    3 It took me a long time to figure this out, but I do not

    4 believe that Mr. Cicak was the vice-president of the

    5 Travnik regional community at any time, and I'd just

    6 like to ask him a question in that regard, if I may.

    7 Q. Mr. Cicak, it's true, isn't it, that you were

    8 actually one of the three vice-presidents of the very

    9 lowest level of party organisation, the Busovaca

    10 municipality, and that you never actually enjoyed any

    11 formal office at the regional community level?

    12 A. I think that you're operating with the wrong

    13 information. Apart from the office I held in Busovaca,

    14 I was a member of the court of honour, and the

    15 disciplinary court of the main board of the HDZ of

    16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, so Busovaca was not really my point

    17 of departure. I personally had a far broader range,

    18 scope, than merely Busovaca.

    19 Q. All right.

    20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) There it

    22 is. Yes. Right.

    23 I wanted to say, according to the table that

    24 we have, the vice-president of the municipality -- in

    25 the municipality of Busovaca, that is what we have in

  26. 1 the document here. Thank you very much.

    2 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much indeed, Your

    3 Honour.

    4 Q. Mr. Cicak, were you elected or appointed to

    5 the positions in the HDZ that you've just described,

    6 other than the position of vice-president of the local

    7 party board at the Busovaca level?

    8 A. I was elected at the convention.

    9 Q. All right. Now, turning to Exhibit Z13,

    10 which I believe is the next exhibit chronologically, I

    11 only have two questions, and believe me, sir, they are

    12 both extremely short.

    13 First, do you see the provision of this

    14 document that says that the state of emergency requires

    15 round the clock duties and alertness in the municipal

    16 HDZ BiH boards, including the monitoring of military

    17 formations in the field?

    18 A. Yes, I see that.

    19 Q. Do you also see the instruction that the

    20 municipal boards were to contact their counterparts at

    21 the SDA to come up with joint defence preparations?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. All right. We can now go on to the next

    24 exhibit, Z14, if I may.

    25 The date of this document is August the 29th

  27. 1 of 1991. Did you know anything about the peace

    2 conferences under way two days earlier? I believe that

    3 was the Badinter EC Arbitration Commission. Did you

    4 know anything about that, sir?

    5 A. I know, but I wasn't really interested in

    6 that, because I knew that those conferences were bound

    7 to fail.

    8 Q. All right. Now, you were actually at this

    9 particular meeting held in Busovaca at the lowest level

    10 of the party organisation, the municipal level, on

    11 August the 29th, 1991; right?

    12 A. I don't know what meeting you're referring

    13 to. Oh, yes, the 29th. Yes.

    14 Q. You were one of the authors of this

    15 particular document, weren't you?

    16 A. Possibly.

    17 Q. All right. And at this time, of course,

    18 Mr. Cicak, it's well known to all people in

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina that Vukovar had been attacked and

    20 was besieged by this time; isn't that right?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Article 3 of this document provides that the

    23 executive board of the municipal organisation would

    24 become the command of the municipal HDZ BiH

    25 organisation in exceptional or wartime conditions. Do

  28. 1 you see that?

    2 A. Yes, I see that.

    3 Q. Going on to the next article, sir, the

    4 decision made on August the 29th, 1991, was that the

    5 president of the municipal HDZ organisation in Busovaca

    6 would become the commander, with his assistants, the

    7 deputy president, secretaries and treasurer, and they

    8 would have the same post in the command. Do you see

    9 that?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. You didn't know that Mr. Kordic ceased to be

    12 president of the municipal organisation on April the

    13 1st of 1992, did you?

    14 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, the witness's

    15 answer was inaudible to the interpreters.

    16 MR. SAYERS:

    17 Q. Would you repeat your answer, Mr. Cicak,

    18 because the interpreter didn't get it?

    19 A. Yes, it's clear to me.

    20 Q. All right. Just three short questions to

    21 conclude this document, or four, if I may.

    22 The Security Council was to be made up of

    23 eight members, is that correct, according to Article

    24 6? You do agree with that, don't you? I mean it says

    25 it in pretty clear language.

  29. 1 A. Yes, yes, yes. Sorry. If I pause, it

    2 doesn't mean I don't agree.

    3 Q. No problem. Then in Article 9, of course, it

    4 says that the Security Council, the eight members of

    5 the Security Council, all have to act jointly with

    6 respect to decisions that they make. Do you see that?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. All right. The Prosecutor asked you some

    9 questions in connection with Article 14, I believe, of

    10 this document, regarding release of information to the

    11 press, and there was some implication made in that

    12 connection, and I would just like to ask you to agree

    13 with me that it's a pretty good idea, in wartime

    14 conditions, to restrict access of information about

    15 your resources, people, organisation, to the enemy.

    16 That's a fairly general proposition that you would

    17 accept; isn't that right?

    18 A. Yes, a standard one.

    19 Q. All right. That completes the questions I

    20 have for this document. Let's move on to the next one,

    21 if I might. Exhibit Z16.

    22 A. Can I put a question? Can I put another

    23 question in relation to this? I mean an answer. I

    24 want to give an answer.

    25 JUDGE MAY: Which document is it you want to

  30. 1 give an answer about? The last one, the one that we've

    2 just dealt with? Yes, if you could, briefly, please.

    3 A. The Defence did not let me do so. I'll be

    4 very brief.

    5 First of all, this is a very good document

    6 that Mr. Kordic never abided by. Here there is an

    7 obligation to let the municipal organisation know about

    8 certain things and to have them give their consent in

    9 terms of what the HDZ is doing, including the HDZ

    10 Busovaca. Mr. Kordic never abided by this document.

    11 MR. SAYERS:

    12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cicak. We've heard your views

    13 on that regard before. And with that in mind, let's

    14 turn to the activity of the party at the national

    15 level, and that's Exhibit Z16.

    16 These are the minutes of a meeting of the

    17 Security Council of the HDZ BiH at the national level,

    18 held on September the 18th, 1991, and they are actually

    19 signed by Stjepan Kljujic; isn't that right, sir?

    20 A. I'm not sure.

    21 Q. How do you mean you're not sure?

    22 A. I don't see why he would sign the same

    23 document twice. Why would you put one signature by the

    24 other? I mean a person would really have to be very

    25 tipsy or have something happen to him.

  31. 1 Q. Well, let's take a look at the signature

    2 page. You recognise the signature of the person that

    3 you've described as your good friend, don't you,

    4 Mr. Kljujic?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. He signs this in what capacity, sir?

    7 A. It says here that he signs in the capacity of

    8 president.

    9 Q. Right. And the signature to the left of his

    10 is the signature of Ignac Kostroman, I believe. Right?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. In what capacity, sir?

    13 A. The administrative secretary.

    14 Q. All right. Now, let's go through this

    15 document --

    16 A. You didn't give me an answer. Why is there

    17 another signature of Mr. Kljujic's here? Okay, you

    18 don't even have to answer.

    19 Q. This was a meeting held in the town of

    20 Konjic. Is that right, sir?

    21 A. I did not attend that meeting.

    22 Q. You were not there. All right.

    23 A. I was not there.

    24 Q. Item 1 of the conclusions reached by the

    25 Security Council on that day is that the Security

  32. 1 Council is renamed the Crisis Staff; right?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And the Crisis Staff actually consists, as I

    4 count them, of 13 members.

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Their names are listed in a separate

    7 attachment to this document; right, sir?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Now, this document that Mr. Kljujic signed

    10 directed the political executive crisis staff, or

    11 directed the staff, rather, to form a professional

    12 command organ which would be a professional military

    13 body. Do you see that, sir?

    14 A. (Inaudible response)

    15 Q. Mr. Kljujic issues an order to begin

    16 immediately to direct the entire HDZ and the Croatian

    17 people in Bosnia-Herzegovina to arrange for the

    18 procurement of weapons. The document says that in

    19 black and white, does it not, sir?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. The president of the Crisis Staff is not

    22 Mr. Boban at all, it's Mr. Kljujic, isn't it?

    23 A. That is Kljujic's last -- or rather I think

    24 that Kljujic spoke only on one more occasion, and then

    25 he no longer appeared in HDZ politics.

  33. 1 Q. But as of the 18th of September, 1991, when

    2 he issued this directive, he was the president of the

    3 Crisis Staff, wasn't he, sir? You're not disagreeing

    4 with that?

    5 A. Just a small correction. On that day, a

    6 meeting of the presidency was held, and it was renamed

    7 into the Crisis Staff. That is to say that a meeting

    8 of the presidency of the HDZ of BH was held, and a

    9 decision was reached straightaway that it would no

    10 longer be called the presidency of the BH HDZ but it

    11 would be called the Crisis Staff, as we've just

    12 mentioned.

    13 Q. All right. And you see, at the bottom of the

    14 page, the directive issued by the Crisis Staff that

    15 reads as follows:

    16 "In the event of armed conflict on

    17 territories with predominantly Croatian populations,

    18 the Crisis Staff shall assume all powers in the

    19 municipalities, and the work of the BH HDZ shall

    20 temporarily cease until the threat of war has passed;

    21 i.e., until the Crisis Staff makes such an assessment."

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Do you remember any discussion of that

    24 directive issued by President Kljujic of this

    25 organisation at the local level in Busovaca?

  34. 1 A. I responded quite vehemently to this -- quite

    2 sharply to this decision, because I knew what it would

    3 end up in; that is, the formation of ethnically-pure

    4 environments and that where there was a majority

    5 population somewhere, then a particular group should

    6 take over the power. That is, where the Serbs were the

    7 majority, Serbs should take over the power. Where

    8 Croats were the majority of the population in a

    9 particular area, Croats should take power, and where

    10 the Muslims were the majority, Muslims should take

    11 power. It is completely opposite to any democratic

    12 ideas at all. And in case of war, all these matters

    13 should have been resolved in a completely different

    14 manner.

    15 Q. So it's fair to say that you vehemently and

    16 vociferously disagreed with the decision signed by the

    17 person you that described as your good friend?

    18 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter of comment.

    19 MR. SAYERS: I'll move on, Your Honour.

    20 Q. Turning to paragraph 5 of this document --

    21 A. It has nothing to do -- friendship and

    22 politics are two different things.

    23 Q. This paragraph reads:

    24 "Stjepan Kljujic is required immediately to

    25 contact the leadership of the SDA/Party of Democratic

  35. 1 Action/and to seek a political declaration from them.

    2 But the Crisis Staff shall develop plans of action both

    3 with and without the SDA and shall undertake concrete

    4 measures for this purpose."

    5 Was there any discussion of that in Busovaca

    6 when you met with the elected party representatives at

    7 the local level, sir?

    8 A. This was something that Mr. Kljujic was

    9 charged with, but the municipal board or the Croatian

    10 Democratic Community in Busovaca on a number of

    11 occasions spoke to the SDA leadership, recommending

    12 them to prepare people for the misfortune looming over

    13 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    14 However, they responded -- they replied that

    15 they were not ready at the time, and I believe it

    16 simply turned out like that. They simply thought that

    17 somebody else would solve it, solve the question. But

    18 nobody else could solve that question but the people of

    19 Bosnia and Herzegovina. That is, jointly Muslims,

    20 Bosniaks, were not interested, at first, in defending

    21 themselves; that is, they were not ready for that

    22 critical point in time. And that is why it was decided

    23 to recommend to continue negotiations with them.

    24 I do not know whether this met with any

    25 success or not. When I was there, it did not prove

  36. 1 successful.

    2 Q. All right. Three other short questions on

    3 this document.

    4 Would you turn to paragraph 8, please? It

    5 would be fair to say that this is, at the highest level

    6 of the party, nationally, a continuation of the

    7 discussion that we've seen in the earlier documents,

    8 and the conclusion at the national party level was that

    9 municipalities should not send recruits to the JNA and

    10 that no mobilisations would be permitted except

    11 mobilisations carried out through the crisis staffs of

    12 the party?

    13 A. Yes. This recommendation is well worded

    14 here, but it doesn't refer to the Croatian Democratic

    15 Union only but to the State of Bosnia-Herzegovina at

    16 large, from the president of the presidency down to the

    17 last citizen. It was decided that recruits should not

    18 be sent to serve their military duty with the Yugoslav

    19 People's Army, that is, not to be sent outside the

    20 frontiers of Bosnia-Herzegovina and not to be sent to

    21 serve, again, their military service with the Yugoslav

    22 People's Army.

    23 Subsequently, it resulted in a series of very

    24 unpleasant scenes across Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    25 Q. Now, at this time in the middle of September

  37. 1 of 1991, the future of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as a

    2 country, was up in the air, it was uncertain. Would

    3 you agree with that?

    4 A. Absolutely.

    5 Q. Indeed, there were numerous proposals being

    6 discussed amongst all of the political parties in the

    7 country as to what the country would look like a year

    8 or two from that particular point in time. Would that

    9 be fair to say?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Was one of those proposals that was being

    12 discussed nationally and by the HDZ, both at the local

    13 and the national level, a proposal for some kind of

    14 canonisation of the various regions in the country?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. And that canonisation would proceed along, I

    17 believe, pretty much ethnic lines; isn't that correct?

    18 A. Absolutely.

    19 Q. Indeed the document signed by Stjepan Kljujic

    20 calls for the appointment of a commission for

    21 canonisation in paragraph 11 of this document?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Indeed it also calls for the appointment of

    24 certain members to that commission. I wonder if you

    25 would just take a look at the people who were appointed

  38. 1 to that commission, sir. They are all pretty

    2 respectable, well-credentialed, intellectual people,

    3 aren't they?

    4 A. What page is it? Will you tell me?

    5 Q. It's paragraph 11 of the document, page 3.

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. They include, of course, Dr. Milenko Brkic

    8 from Mostar; right?

    9 A. Yes. Mariofil Ljubic is here, Mr. Pandzic,

    10 Mr. Markesic, Miro Lasic, Milenko Brkic, Vlatko

    11 Kraljevic, Ivan Komsic and Zoran Perkovic. At that

    12 time, some of them are prominent citizens -- rather

    13 politicians of Bosnia-Herzegovina to this day.

    14 Q. The final point I want to make about this

    15 document appears just after --

    16 A. I have not finished with this. If I may,

    17 Your Honours, may I add just one word?

    18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    19 A. Mr. Kljujic was planning to perform the

    20 canonisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina with mixed

    21 population, that is, that every canton would have

    22 Muslims, Croats, Serbs.

    23 The other side, headed by Mr. Boban,

    24 Mr. Kordic, Mr. Tudjman and all the others, wanted the

    25 canonisation to follow purely ethnical principles;

  39. 1 that is, to have a Croat canton, a Serb canton, and a

    2 Muslim or Bosniak canton.

    3 I opposed that idea, but I was alone in that,

    4 just as I am alone today when, again, there is talk

    5 about the ethnic division of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    6 Q. All right, sir. Now, if you could just turn

    7 to page 3 of the document, this document was to be kept

    8 strictly confidential, wasn't it? I'm sorry, it's on

    9 page 4 of the Croatian version.

    10 A. Yes. Please go on.

    11 Q. You would agree that this document was to be

    12 kept strictly confidential?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Now, just stepping back a little bit to place

    15 this document in the historical context, were you aware

    16 that the peace conference had been convened right here,

    17 actually, in The Hague on September the 7th of 1991,

    18 and that it was actually chaired by Lord Carrington?

    19 A. Yes. Go on, please.

    20 Q. Were you aware that the Serbian autonomous

    21 region of Eastern Herzegovina was declared six days

    22 before this document, sir, on September the 12th, 1991?

    23 A. I was, I am.

    24 Q. And that's something, I take it, sir, that

    25 caused you the utmost of concern.

  40. 1 A. The whole procedure about the peacemaking

    2 role of all the peacemakers in Bosnia-Herzegovina gave

    3 rise to concern, both in my case and in the case of all

    4 the other citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I really

    5 do not wish to comment on it.

    6 Q. Well, four days after the Serbian autonomous

    7 region of Eastern Herzegovina was formed, the Serbian

    8 autonomous region of Bosnia and Krajina was formed,

    9 too, so were you aware of that?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Did you see that as heralding the

    12 disintegration of the internal structure of

    13 Bosnia-Herzegovina along ethnic lines?

    14 A. Yes, I saw the announcement, but not the

    15 disintegration. The disintegration is impossible.

    16 Q. There was a huge amount of concern amongst

    17 the Croats and the Muslims at these apparently

    18 secessionist efforts on the part of the Serbs in

    19 September of 1991. I think that would be fair to say,

    20 and you would agree with that, would you not, sir?

    21 A. I will do that. But, Your Honours, can we

    22 please stick to the first defendant's case?

    23 Q. Well, let's just proceed along the path

    24 chronologically.

    25 JUDGE MAY: If Counsel asks questions which

  41. 1 are irrelevant, we'll stop him. But at the moment,

    2 he's not.

    3 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

    4 Q. Three days after the call to arms issued by

    5 President Stjepan Kljujic of the HDZ BiH, on September

    6 the 21st, 1991, that's when the convoy that Mr. Nice

    7 referred to in the direct examination was stopped at

    8 Kaonik; is that correct, sir?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And that was a big JNA convoy carrying armed

    11 shipments to the Serbs in the JNA; isn't that right?

    12 A. You are wrong, or rather you were given the

    13 wrong information. It was not a big convoy, it was a

    14 small convoy which was intercepted by the paramilitary

    15 formation of the HDZ BH in the municipality of

    16 Busovaca.

    17 Q. Large or small, though, it was headed for the

    18 JNA, wasn't it, sir?

    19 A. Absolutely.

    20 Q. You were worried that those arms would

    21 actually be used to kill Muslims and to kill Croats,

    22 were you not?

    23 A. To begin with, you need to know that nobody

    24 knew what was being transported. There was no

    25 counterintelligence service which would report what had

  42. 1 been loaded onto those trucks. It could have been food

    2 or anything else. And, thirdly, we did not think it

    3 was a means -- an instrument of killing.

    4 Q. All right. Just a couple of days after

    5 September the 21st of 1991, something happened at the

    6 town of Ravno, and you mentioned it in your direct

    7 examination, and I wonder if you would be --

    8 A. Please.

    9 Q. -- if you would be so good as to just tell

    10 the Judges what occurred at Ravno at the end of

    11 September 1991.

    12 A. If Your Honours permit me, may I complete the

    13 previous answer? Only one sentence.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Yes, and then deal with the

    15 question.

    16 A. I should like to ask the Defence to be very

    17 precise. At Kaonik at that moment, JNA

    18 representatives, SDA representatives came, and

    19 Mr. Kordic went to negotiations together with them. He

    20 stepped aside, and he agreed that the next day they

    21 would all sit down in the hotel in Vitez and would

    22 continue the negotiations. He let the convoy through

    23 without any problem, but the moment he put his

    24 combatants -- rather his criminals -- to stop, they

    25 were ready to begin to kill people, and it was not the

  43. 1 strategic material, which is what they noted among

    2 themselves. So the meeting was attended by Mr. Kordic,

    3 by Mr. Muhamed Cero, and the captain responsible for

    4 the convoy.

    5 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, sir. Now could you

    6 answer the question, please.

    7 A. Will you repeat it, please.

    8 Q. Certainly. Could you tell the Judges of the

    9 Trial Chamber what happened at the town of Ravno

    10 towards the end of September 1991?

    11 A. I think you went slightly wrong there. Will

    12 you please think about the date again?

    13 Q. Well, you mentioned the town of Ravno, sir.

    14 A. It doesn't really matter. It doesn't really

    15 matter. I can answer, but you have to amend the

    16 documentation. The village of Ravno was razed to the

    17 ground by the Yugoslav People's Army. There was a

    18 cannon attack, and then an onslaught took place so that

    19 nobody stayed there. People that could move ran away.

    20 Those who stayed behind were killed, shovelled over

    21 with ground. This village of Ravno stopped existing,

    22 but it was not on the day that you mentioned. It

    23 happened much more -- a long time before that.

    24 In Bosnia-Herzegovina we believe that that

    25 was the beginning of the war. I don't know if I was

  44. 1 too fast for interpreters. That is, we see that date

    2 as the beginning of the aggression against

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    4 Q. And the town of Ravno, the village of Ravno,

    5 was primarily a Croat community inside

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina; isn't that correct, sir?

    7 A. The village of Ravno is a Croat village in

    8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and now it has been

    9 reconstructed, and it is a Croat village again, and it

    10 has even become a municipality.

    11 Q. All right. But by September of 1991, all

    12 you're saying, sir, is that it was a smoking hole in

    13 the ground with no one left there, as a result of the

    14 attacks of the JNA inside Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that

    15 correct?

    16 A. Yes. The HDZ BH, or more specifically

    17 Mr. Kljujic, protested vigorously with the presidency

    18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the citizens of

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he insisted, indicating that

    20 this was the beginning of the aggression against

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina by the JNA, but he was alone.

    22 Q. Do you recall a famous press conference or

    23 press announcement made by President Izetbegovic in

    24 connection with the attack on Ravno, sir, at which he

    25 announced to all of the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina

  45. 1 that "This is not our war"?

    2 A. Yes, I do remember this nonsense.

    3 Q. That particular announcement caused

    4 tremendous concern and worry and anxiety amongst the

    5 Croat community throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, did it

    6 not?

    7 A. No. It did not cause major fear among the

    8 Croats. It caused great fear among the citizens of

    9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Muslims, Serbs and Croats. That

    10 is, citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina began to fear.

    11 Q. All right.

    12 MR. SAYERS: If I could turn to the next

    13 document chronologically, Your Honours, I believe it's

    14 Z18.

    15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Sayers,

    16 before we proceed, before we move on to the next

    17 question, the witness told us that in relation to

    18 canonisation there were two positions, two views on

    19 that, and he explained them to us. We should like to

    20 know, what were the objectives expected of the

    21 canonisation?

    22 MR. SAYERS: That's an excellent question,

    23 Judge Bennouna, and I'm sorry that I didn't cover it.

    24 Q. Turning to the question posed to you by

    25 Judge Bennouna, Mr. Cicak, could you just explain for

  46. 1 the Court what the objectives of this commission for

    2 canonisation were?

    3 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina is divided into natural

    4 regions. Under the communist regime, they were regions

    5 Tuzla, Doboj, Zenica, Bihac, Mostar, and a number of

    6 others. It transpired, when Mr. Badinter came to

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, it proved proper to overcome the

    8 crisis by turning those natural regions into cantons.

    9 However, two views prevailed. Mr. Kljujic

    10 and others in the HDZ, that is, in the presidency of

    11 the HDZ, with other progressive forces, they said that

    12 every canton should be mixed, that is, that in each one

    13 of them, Muslims, Croats, and Serbs should live

    14 together. However, the Herzegovinian current, headed

    15 by Boban, Kordic and others, advocated a view -- and

    16 you can find it in a document, and I'm sorry that we

    17 glossed over that document too quickly and never drew

    18 attention to it -- it says that it has been the age-old

    19 aspiration to form those cantons and to annex them to

    20 the state of Croatia.

    21 In another document you can also find that

    22 the Croat part of the Security Council was to become

    23 part of the system of the organised defence of

    24 Croatia. So, you see, joining ethnically pure regions

    25 with the state of Croatia, both in terms of defence and

  47. 1 in civil administration.

    2 MR. SAYERS: Did that respond to your

    3 question, Judge Bennouna?

    4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Yes, thank

    5 you, but those people who discussed the canonisation,

    6 did they understand by it a federal structure, when

    7 they spoke about the canonisation?

    8 A. They meant the structure of

    9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, absolutely federal.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, it's now the time for

    11 the break.

    12 THE WITNESS: Thank God.

    13 JUDGE MAY: I notice that so far you've

    14 covered five documents in an hour and a half. We

    15 really must make more progress after the adjournment.

    16 I don't want to put a limit on the length of

    17 cross-examination, but we must have regard to the time

    18 and the time this trial is taking. So I must ask you

    19 to speed up after the adjournment.

    20 MR. SAYERS: I'll do my best to do that, Your

    21 Honour.

    22 JUDGE MAY: You had, I understand, hoped or

    23 anticipated you would finish by the next adjournment.

    24 MR. SAYERS: Actually, I gave that estimate

    25 to Mr. Nice at the end of the first day, and of course

  48. 1 the witness covered a tremendous amount of territory

    2 which was not in any way heralded by the scanty summary

    3 of his purported testimony that we received, so to put

    4 it mildly, we had some scrambling to do over the

    5 weekend and last night, so I regret that it is taking a

    6 little longer than I anticipated.

    7 JUDGE MAY: Well, perhaps you could put on as

    8 much speed as possible after the adjournment.

    9 MR. SAYERS: Yes, sir. Thank you.

    10 THE WITNESS: Now the witness is responsible

    11 for this.

    12 JUDGE MAY: 20 minutes, I should have said.

    13 --- Recess taken at 11.15

    14 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

    15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, one matter occurs to

    16 us, and it is this: You are going through it document

    17 by document. Is it possible to speed that process up

    18 without going through every single one?

    19 MR. SAYERS: Absolutely, Your Honour. I did

    20 not intend to do that, but I felt it was important to

    21 lay a proper historical foundation.

    22 Q. Bearing in mind the injunction that we heard

    23 just before the break, Mr. Cicak, that brevity is to be

    24 commended, I have one final question for you on Exhibit

    25 Z16. I don't think you need to see the document,

  49. 1 necessarily, but here's what it says.

    2 Paragraph 2: "The crisis staffs must be

    3 formed post-haste for three regional communities of the

    4 BH HDZ, namely: the Travnik regional community, the

    5 Herzegovina regional community, and the Posavina

    6 regional community."

    7 You don't disagree that that was a decision

    8 reached by the Security Council at the national level

    9 on September the 18th, 1991, do you?

    10 A. Esteemed colleague, I appreciate what you're

    11 saying and I understand what you're saying, but could I

    12 please have the Croatian interpretation of what you're

    13 saying?

    14 MR. SAYERS: Okay. Thank you very much

    15 indeed, sir.

    16 Now, if we could just turn our attention

    17 briefly to Exhibit Z18.

    18 I'm sorry. I don't think that there was a

    19 Croatian interpretation of that preceding question, so

    20 if I might just ask it again.

    21 Q. Can you understand me now, sir?

    22 How about now, Mr. Cicak?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. Sorry about that.

    25 A. It's all right.

  50. 1 Q. I just wanted to draw your attention to

    2 paragraph 2. I don't need to repeat it for the Trial

    3 Chamber, I'd just like you to agree that that reflects

    4 accurate a decision that was reached by the Security

    5 Council of the party at the national level on September

    6 the 18th, 1991.

    7 A. Absolutely correct.

    8 Q. So there were three regional communities that

    9 were actually recognised by the party on the national

    10 level as of that time; correct?

    11 A. No, the instructions -- oh, yes, yes,

    12 absolutely. I got a bit confused.

    13 Q. No problem. Okay. Moving along to

    14 Exhibit Z18, I would just like to ask you a few

    15 questions in connection with that.

    16 If you take a look at paragraph 4, it is

    17 true, is it not, that the HDZ BiH advocated an

    18 independent and indivisible Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And you agreed with that, too; right?

    21 A. Absolutely.

    22 Q. There wasn't any suggestion of secession of

    23 parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina to form an independent

    24 country with Croatia at this time, was there?

    25 A. There was.

  51. 1 Q. Well, actually, the date of this document is

    2 October the 8th, 1991, and that's the very day that the

    3 declaration of Croatian independence became legally

    4 effective, is it not?

    5 A. Yes, but this is Mr. Stjepan Kljujic's last

    6 document, or rather of the Crisis Staff that he had

    7 chaired, and this is the last text that he had written.

    8 Q. All right. And, indeed, if you take a look

    9 at paragraph 6, the Croatian people in

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina were instructed not to contribute in

    11 any way to strains in relations with the Muslims;

    12 correct?

    13 A. Just a moment, please. Allow me to have a

    14 look.

    15 Q. Absolutely. Take your time.

    16 A. Your interpretation seems to be a bit

    17 different. Yes.

    18 Q. You agree that that's basically the sense of

    19 what the Croatian version of paragraph 6 says, what

    20 I've just said?

    21 A. Absolutely. It is Mr. Stjepan Kljujic's

    22 recognisable style, or rather his way of thinking.

    23 Q. Nonetheless, though, the HDZ was continuing

    24 to develop its own policies and activities

    25 independently, and that's what the rest of that

  52. 1 conclusion states; right?

    2 A. Independently, but on the basis of the

    3 principle of an indivisible Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    4 Q. All right. If you just take a look at

    5 paragraph 9, there's a concern expressed there by the

    6 Security Council that crisis staffs have only been

    7 partially implemented and that the implementation of

    8 the conclusions regarding crisis staffs must be

    9 undertaken in all environments. You didn't disagree

    10 with this, did you?

    11 A. I did, but that was impossible to implement.

    12 There were only three communities where it was possible

    13 to establish crisis staffs. That was Posavina,

    14 Herzegovina and Travnik, respectively.

    15 Q. Would you turn to paragraph 14, sir?

    16 A. Very gladly.

    17 Q. This is a decision made to establish a new

    18 newspaper called "The Herceg-Bosna", and there would be

    19 a three-person board basically responsible for its

    20 publication and preparation, including Mr. Kljujic;

    21 right?

    22 A. Yes, yes. There are three persons that are

    23 charged with this here; that is to say, Stjepan

    24 Kljujic, Miro Lasic and Ivan Markesic. However, as far

    25 as I know, this newspaper was never, ever published.

  53. 1 Q. And according to paragraph 15, it was

    2 Mr. Kljujic, not Mr. Boban, who was responsible for

    3 coordinating work between the newly-independent country

    4 of Croatia and the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

    5 Herzegovina; right?

    6 A. Just a moment, please. Let me have a look.

    7 Q. Sure.

    8 A. Yes, that's what it says here.

    9 Q. All right. According to paragraph 11, just

    10 to go back a little bit, do you recall any discussion

    11 at the local level of the importance of keeping proper

    12 records of personnel and equipment? Do you?

    13 A. I don't know what equipment you have in

    14 mind. If you're talking about weapons, you have to

    15 rephrase your question. As for records, we talked

    16 about that concerning the young men who were supposed

    17 to go into the JNA. As regards these particular

    18 records that you mentioned, I don't know what you are

    19 referring to, so would you please be so kind as to

    20 rephrase your question or repeat it?

    21 Q. Well, if you don't know what the document is

    22 referring to, let's just move on, sir.

    23 Was there any concern expressed in the

    24 Croatian community, and in the Muslim community,

    25 actually, at this time, regarding a potentially

  54. 1 significant problem with large numbers of refugees?

    2 A. I don't think that it is a question of

    3 refugees.

    4 Q. How about paragraph 18, then, of this

    5 document signed by Mr. Kljujic?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. The municipal committees were directed to

    8 form commissions for the reception of refugees, were

    9 they not?

    10 A. Absolutely.

    11 Q. And, indeed, there was a directive to

    12 cooperate with humanitarian organisations such as the

    13 Red Cross, Caritas and other humanitarian

    14 organisations, and you were aware of that directive, I

    15 take it, paragraph 19.

    16 A. I am aware of that and we worked on this.

    17 But I think it is not a question of refugees who had

    18 come in, it is a question of preparing the organisation

    19 for receiving them. If there is a danger of war, then

    20 there might be refugees, and then the population should

    21 take them in. That is to say, every municipal board

    22 had to have certain services set up so they would carry

    23 out their duties when the time came. So it is not a

    24 question of refugees that were already coming in.

    25 Q. Stepping aside from this document a little,

  55. 1 and before we go to the next one, isn't it true that at

    2 this time in the autumn of 1991, there was a

    3 significant degree of concern in the expatriate

    4 community of Croats living abroad outside of

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina and that support, both financial and

    6 otherwise, was received from that expatriate community?

    7 A. There was not great concern, but there was

    8 great support, considerably so. The idea of Mr. Franjo

    9 Tudjman of a movement of all the Croats throughout the

    10 world, including the diaspora that fully responded to

    11 this call.

    12 Q. And people in countries like, for example,

    13 just to choose a few, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and

    14 the United States, actually sent in contributions to

    15 help Croats, didn't they? Right?

    16 A. Yes, especially Australia.

    17 Q. If you would just take a look at Exhibit Z19,

    18 Z19, and I'm the first to say, Mr. Cicak, that this is

    19 somewhat illegible, but doesn't it appear to you to be

    20 a receipt for Deutschmarks, Swiss francs, Austrian

    21 shillings, U.S. dollars, and also the Swedish kronors?

    22 A. I don't know what you're asking me to do.

    23 JUDGE MAY: Well, the witness hasn't seen

    24 this document before, so there's very little point

    25 putting it to him. And no doubt we'll hear some

  56. 1 evidence about it in due course.

    2 MR. SAYERS: I'll move on, Your Honour.

    3 Q. Just a couple of questions about the next

    4 exhibit, which is Exhibit Z20.

    5 This was a meeting of the regional community

    6 of the HDZ for the Travnik region held in Busovaca on

    7 November the 4th, 1991; is that correct, sir?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Incidentally, Mr. Martin Udovicic was present

    10 for this meeting, was he not?

    11 A. I'm not sure. I think he was together with

    12 Mr. Kordic.

    13 Q. Would you take a look at the list of the

    14 attendees from the Travnik municipality? Mr. Zec,

    15 Mr. Gaso, Mr. Matisic and Mr. Udovicic attended, did

    16 they not?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. And so did you, sir, did you not?

    19 A. Yes. Yes, it says so here.

    20 Q. Sure. You agree with the conclusion that is

    21 contained on paragraph 3 of the conclusions, that the

    22 HDZ municipal boards were to maintain the closest

    23 cooperation possible with the SDA, the Party of

    24 Democratic Action boards, in order to avoid all

    25 conflicts and disagreements; right?

  57. 1 A. (Inaudible response)

    2 Q. That subject was discussed in this meeting,

    3 was it not?

    4 A. It was discussed, but in a different way.

    5 That is to say we talked about the need for us to

    6 cooperate with the SDA, but already at that point we

    7 came to the conclusion that there were various conflict

    8 situations and that this kind of policy should not be

    9 continued.

    10 However, the municipal board of the HDZ of

    11 Busovaca was powerless before a group of armed young

    12 men that was the assault fist of the HDZ of Busovaca.

    13 I can only say that at that time, not a single member

    14 of another party of the SDA could not freely pass

    15 through Busovaca without being at the receiving end of

    16 provocations.

    17 Q. Now, Mr. Kljujic had been invited to this

    18 meeting, but he didn't bother to attend; isn't that

    19 true?

    20 JUDGE MAY: Well, that question is put in a

    21 tendentious way.

    22 MR. SAYERS: Let me rephrase it, Your

    23 Honour.

    24 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Kljujic had been

    25 invited to the meeting?

  58. 1 A. Mr. Kljujic was regularly invited to all

    2 meetings, any municipal board of the HDZ in

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is to say, in the 110

    4 municipalities that there were, there were 110

    5 municipal boards of the HDZ, and Mr. Kljujic and

    6 Mr. Markesic, the secretary-general, were regularly

    7 invited. However, because of the obligations he had in

    8 the state presidency, it was impossible for him,

    9 physically, to attend all of this, so he did not attend

    10 the meeting in Busovaca, either.

    11 Q. As we've seen, though, two months earlier,

    12 sir, the political organisation of the whole party was

    13 split into three main regions, with Travnik being one

    14 of them; right?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. So an invitation from one of the three main

    17 regions of the political party in which he held a high

    18 position would be a pretty important invitation, would

    19 it not?

    20 A. An invitation from wherever was very

    21 important for Mr. Stjepan Kljujic. It did not really

    22 matter whether those were the communities in Travnik,

    23 Herzegovina, Posavina, wherever, but any municipality.

    24 I mean people in whatever municipality would think it

    25 would be very important for him to come.

  59. 1 Q. Let me just ask you one minor question

    2 relating to the meaning of the Croatian word

    3 "Zajednica". If you take a look at the heading of

    4 this document, it says, "Hrvatska Demokratica Zajednica

    5 Bosne I Herzegovine," and I apologise for that terrible

    6 pronunciation. But the name right beneath it says,

    7 "Hrvatska Travnicka Regionalna Zajednica, and that

    8 seems to be translated differently from the word

    9 "Zajednica" at the top, in the English version,

    10 anyway. Does "Zajednica" mean "Union", or does it mean

    11 "Community", or does it mean both?

    12 A. It cannot mean both. The Croatian Democratic

    13 Union means solely a community, no union. And in the

    14 second line, we have Croatian Travnik regional

    15 community, so it is an HDZ organisation which had nine

    16 municipalities and a bit more. Subsequently,

    17 gradually, it was beginning to take over the functions

    18 of the republican community, that is, of

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    20 Q. Okay. Let's go over to the next document,

    21 Exhibit Z21/1.

    22 Before this document was sent out, it was

    23 actually discussed and approved by the municipal HDZ

    24 organisation; isn't that true?

    25 A. It was discussed. No special decision can be

  60. 1 taken in regard to any written document composed by an

    2 individual, so I think that this is Mr. Dario Kordic's

    3 letter, so it is his personal matter, and therefore

    4 there was no need for anyone to discuss it, in

    5 particular. But, of course, one could talk about it.

    6 Q. Indeed you were a participant in the

    7 discussions regarding this letter before it was sent

    8 out to Mr. Kljujic, weren't you?

    9 A. I do not know even if it was sent to

    10 Mr. Kljujic, but we did discuss about it, and there was

    11 an objection that Mr. Stjepan Kljujic should have

    12 attended the meetings of the municipal board and the

    13 regional Travnik community seat in Busovaca, he should

    14 have attended it sometime. But because he was so busy

    15 with the presidency in Bosnia-Herzegovina, he could not

    16 come. What Mr. Kordic is writing here, of course, is

    17 his personal matter, and I think that in this way, he

    18 is belittling both Mr. Tudjman and Mr. Markesic, but

    19 that is his personal view and I really do not wish to

    20 comment on that.

    21 Q. All right. Let's move on. If you would turn

    22 to Exhibit Z22, you were asked a few questions about

    23 this document. Before we start going through this,

    24 very briefly, the English version that we were

    25 presented contains the following statements right up at

  61. 1 the top of it on page 1, and I would just like to read

    2 it out to you and have it translated, Mr. Cicak, and

    3 just ask you whether that appears on the Croatian

    4 version.

    5 It says:

    6 "The decision of the so-called --"

    7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I made it quite clear

    8 when we were dealing with this document in chief that

    9 that passage shouldn't be there and it's not on the

    10 original.

    11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, indeed, I've crossed it

    12 out.

    13 MR. SAYERS: All right.

    14 A. May I say just one word, Your Honours?

    15 JUDGE MAY: Briefly.

    16 A. One word only. This is the introduction

    17 leading to the formation of the Croatian Community of

    18 Herceg-Bosna. This is the first time that Mr. Kordic

    19 said that this community should be set up.

    20 MR. SAYERS:

    21 Q. All right, sir. Just to ask you some very

    22 brief questions on that, it's true, and you would agree

    23 with this, I think, that a variety of proposals were

    24 being --

    25 A. Shall we be discussing this?

  62. 1 Q. No, just a general question to begin with.

    2 You would agree, wouldn't you, that a variety

    3 of proposals were being energetically discussed

    4 regarding the political future, the constitution of

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina at this time, by not only the

    6 Croatian Community in the country but also the Muslim

    7 Community and the Serbian community?

    8 A. Now you have something -- could you please

    9 repeat the question? I think you confounded something

    10 there.

    11 Q. All right. I hope I didn't lose something in

    12 the translation, but I think that you would agree with

    13 me, and you would tell the Judges of the Trial Chamber,

    14 that as of this time, towards the end of 1991, this was

    15 a time when a huge number of proposals regarding the

    16 future -- the potential future, political future, of

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovina were being discussed by all three of

    18 the main ethnic groups in the country?

    19 A. Yes, it was being discussed, and the SDS was

    20 particularly aggressive. As we said, they had already

    21 marked their territory for the creation of a future

    22 community. Likewise, the Herzegovinian community, that

    23 is, Herceg-Bosna, was also very aggressive, and as were

    24 the Croats in the Posavina community, they behaved very

    25 wisely.

  63. 1 As for the SDA, they also reacted very

    2 loudly, but they had no territorial pretensions.

    3 Q. You would agree that it was a time of

    4 rapidly-changing political and intellectual views

    5 regarding the future of the country?

    6 A. I mean those who had their personal views,

    7 those who were people who were democratically-minded and

    8 who were poised, they, of course, always thought the

    9 same. But there were some others who changed their

    10 views, their opinions, from one day to the other.

    11 Q. Absolutely. And that's the point I'm

    12 making. Also there was no such thing as the country or

    13 the independent Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at this

    14 time, was there?

    15 A. No. Bosnia-Herzegovina proclaimed its

    16 independence on the 3rd of March, 1992. On the 6th of

    17 April, 1992, it was admitted to the European Union, and

    18 only on the 25th of May, it was admitted to the United

    19 Nations, I mean 1992. You are talking about '91, and

    20 this is '92.

    21 Q. Now, a decision hadn't even been made at this

    22 point, although it was shortly to be made, regarding

    23 the holding of a national referendum on the question of

    24 whether Bosnia and Herzegovina should actually become

    25 an independent republic. I believe that's fair to

  64. 1 say. Would you agree with that?

    2 A. I don't have to agree or not to agree. It is

    3 fact.

    4 Q. Fair enough. Now, with respect to Exhibit

    5 Z22, the last question that I've got is that Mr. Kordic

    6 signed this document, I believe, as one of 22

    7 participants.

    8 A. Your Honours, may we go back? Just one

    9 word.

    10 JUDGE MAY: One word.

    11 A. The Croatian Democratic Union received

    12 directives from Mr. Franjo Tudjman to vote against the

    13 referendum. The Croatian democratic community -- or

    14 rather the Croatian democratic community was ready to

    15 vote against the referendum. And adding to the

    16 influence of the international factor, Mr. Tudjman

    17 changed his opinion, issued a directive, and then the

    18 Croatian democratic community voted for the

    19 referendum.

    20 MR. SAYERS:

    21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cicak, and we'll get to that

    22 in just a second. But you would agree with me that

    23 Mr. Kordic signed or is one of the attendees of this

    24 meeting, but only one of 22 attendees; right?

    25 A. You mean that document of the 12 November,

  65. 1 '91?

    2 Q. Yes.

    3 A. True.

    4 Q. Turning to the formation of the Croatian

    5 Community of Herceg-Bosna on November 18, 1991, do you

    6 remember seeing a television announcement by Mate Boban

    7 on the same day that that community was formed,

    8 announcing its formation?

    9 A. I do, but I do not think one should gloss

    10 over this document so quickly on the 12th of November.

    11 This is the introduction to the establishment of

    12 Herceg-Bosna, and Mr. Dario Kordic proclaimed this as

    13 the historic event of the creation of the Croat

    14 community of Bosnia-Herzegovina, relating to the

    15 Republic of Croatia. That is when the Croatian

    16 Community of Herceg-Bosna was founded.

    17 Q. All right, sir. Now, turning, if we could,

    18 for a moment, skipping over a few exhibits to

    19 Exhibit Z39, which was the resignation letter dated

    20 January 25th, 1991, you have described in your

    21 direction examination being both comic and absurd.

    22 A. Yes. Will you ask me the question?

    23 Q. Yes, I will. Do you recall that January the

    24 25th, 1991, was the very day upon which a decision was

    25 finally reached on holding a referendum on the question

  66. 1 of independence in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Do you recall, sir, that just two weeks

    4 before that, on January the 9th of 1992, the Serbs had

    5 held a referendum, the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina had

    6 held a referendum expressing their desire to be

    7 excluded from any sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina that was

    8 outside the framework of the former Yugoslavia?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. By the time that the decision was made to

    11 hold a referendum, sir, it was clear that approximately

    12 just over one-third of the population of the

    13 prospectively new country was not going to vote on the

    14 question of independence?

    15 A. That is an assumption on your part on the

    16 basis of some statistical data, I gather. As far as I

    17 know, the leaderships of the three national parties had

    18 the principal say, and people, the citizens of

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, were never asked anything about the

    20 vital questions concerning Bosnia-Herzegovina. Nobody

    21 asked them anything.

    22 Q. All right. Well, we'll get to that in just a

    23 few seconds, but let's continue marching

    24 chronologically through the process by which this

    25 referendum was eventually held. I'd like to turn your

  67. 1 attention, if I may, to Exhibit Z41, which was the

    2 minutes of a meeting of the HDZ BiH for the Travnik

    3 regional community on January the 27th of 1992.

    4 Once again, Mr. Udovicic is present at this

    5 meeting, is he not, sir?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. On the agenda as item number 1 is the current

    8 political and security situation after the decision of

    9 the Bosnia and Herzegovina assembly to hold a

    10 referendum on the issue of Bosnia and Herzegovinian

    11 sovereignty. That was really the primary agenda item?

    12 A. No, no, what I have is the minutes here. I

    13 only have an excerpt from the minutes. Could I please

    14 have the document?

    15 Q. Do you see the "Conclusions" section on

    16 page -- the second page?

    17 A. Yes, I do see that, but that is not the

    18 document we were talking about.

    19 Q. Could you just look above the "Conclusions"

    20 section, sir, to the agenda item. Are we on the same

    21 sheet?

    22 Now, you would agree with me that the vital

    23 and the single most important political question that

    24 was being discussed at this meeting was the question of

    25 the referendum; that's a fact, isn't it?

  68. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. All right. Now, could you just turn to the

    3 last sentence of the first conclusion that was reached

    4 at this meeting, sir. I'd just like to read it to

    5 you. It says: "One of the options of the Croatian

    6 Community of Herceg-Bosna was the association of areas

    7 of Herceg-Bosna to the Republic of Croatia. This

    8 conclusion has not been adhered to."

    9 A. I couldn't -- I couldn't locate it. Could you

    10 tell me what page it is?

    11 Q. It appears to be the second page. And it's

    12 not your fault, Mr. Cicak. These are very, very faint

    13 copies, but if you take a look, there's a number on the

    14 left-hand side, "2." Do you see that?

    15 A. " 2"?

    16 Q. If you look just above that, that's where the

    17 passage that I just read you appears, and I'd just like

    18 to ask you whether you agree that what I've just read

    19 in English, when it's translated into Croatian, says

    20 what I say it said, if that's clear.

    21 A. No, really, believe me, I can't manage this.

    22 I don't know what you mean. I don't know what you have

    23 in mind. I don't know what you want to ask me.

    24 Q. At the risk of belabouring the point, if

    25 you'd just take a look at that sentence, now that

  69. 1 you've located it --

    2 JUDGE MAY: I think we've read the sentence;

    3 if you --

    4 MR. SAYERS: I'll move on, Your Honour. I'll

    5 move right on. In fact, we can move on beyond that

    6 document.

    7 Q. As we get to the next document, Mr. Cicak,

    8 would you agree that the referendum question was the

    9 single most important political question that was

    10 occupying HDZ party politics at this time?

    11 A. Not the HDZ. You always put your questions

    12 wrong. That problem had preoccupied the citizens of

    13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The HDZ was against the

    14 referendum, and later on they conceded and they asked

    15 all the Croats to vote at the referendum, and

    16 Mr. Kordic's claim seems ridiculous. I think it was in

    17 his article "Small-Time Judas" that the Croats

    18 unanimously expressed their will. The Croats expressed

    19 their will, but not because the HDZ had asked them to

    20 do so.

    21 Q. Well, let's keep our attention focused on

    22 these documents. If you could see Exhibit Z47, please,

    23 and also Exhibit Z42.

    24 A. Just a minute, please. Let me have a look at

    25 it. What do you wish to ask me in connection with this

  70. 1 document?

    2 Q. If you could turn to Exhibit Z42, I would

    3 just like to ask you a few basic questions. Z42.

    4 This is actually the minutes, I believe, of

    5 the first meeting of the Croatian Community of

    6 Herceg-Bosna, also known, for the Trial Chamber's

    7 information, as HZ-HB, dated January the 29th, 1992.

    8 Mr. Kordic is one of about 50 attendees at this

    9 meeting; right? You'd agree with that, wouldn't you?

    10 A. It's written down here that he was present.

    11 Q. The chairman of the meeting was Mr. Mate

    12 Boban, page 2? What I'd like to turn your attention to

    13 is the decisions reached by this Community.

    14 Number 1: This says -- it relates to the

    15 decision on calling of the plebiscite, and it says

    16 that "The Croatian nation in Bosnia and Herzegovina, as

    17 an indigenous, constitutive and constituent nation,

    18 will decide on its own destiny."

    19 Those terms, sir, "indigenous, constitutive

    20 and constituent nation," those actually appear in the

    21 1974 constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina, don't they?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. All right. If you take a look at the item

    24 marked "Interparty talks," it appears on page 4 of the

    25 English version, this states that "Competent persons

  71. 1 from Herceg-Bosna are being authorised to continue

    2 interparty talks according to given instructions and

    3 with permanent contacts with authorised officials from

    4 the HDZ Central Office, in order to find a political

    5 consensus and avoid further tensions and conflict."

    6 Do you recall any discussion of that

    7 particular issue?

    8 A. Just a minute, please. I was not present at

    9 this meeting.

    10 Q. All right. I just asked you whether you

    11 remembered any discussion of that particular issue,

    12 regarding interparty talks and the avoidance of

    13 tensions and conflict.

    14 A. Absolutely. We discussed a lot of things.

    15 Yes, these interparty talks were intensive, but it

    16 depends with which objective in mind.

    17 Q. Turning to the next exhibit, Z47, I only have

    18 a couple of questions for you in connection with this,

    19 and I'd like you to look specifically at the first

    20 paragraph, sir.

    21 A. I got the English version. Just a minute,

    22 please.

    23 Q. Now, there's a reference in there to a main

    24 board meeting held in Livno. Do you see that?

    25 A. Yes.

  72. 1 Q. Now, isn't it true, Mr. Cicak, that when I

    2 use the word "Livno question" or "Livensko Pitanje,"

    3 that is a phrase that is known to just about every

    4 Croatian in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    5 A. I don't think so. I don't think that every

    6 Croat in Bosnia-Herzegovina is familiar with this

    7 phrase, but those who were close to the top echelons at

    8 that time -- Mate Boban, Dario Kordic, and others --

    9 are aware of this phrase. The people from Posavina are

    10 not aware of this phrase.

    11 Q. All right. If you just take a look for one

    12 second at Exhibit Z42, the referendum question is

    13 actually contained on page 4 of the English version.

    14 JUDGE MAY: What is it, Mr. Sayers, you want

    15 us to look at here, please?

    16 MR. SAYERS: It's the phraseology of the

    17 question to be voted on in the referendum, Your Honour,

    18 as phrased by the authorities of the Socialist Federal

    19 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This was the question

    20 to be considered at the referendum held in March of

    21 1992.

    22 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry, I don't see this.

    23 Where is it?

    24 MR. SAYERS: It's on page 4 of Exhibit Z42,

    25 right up at the top, Your Honour: "Phrasing the

  73. 1 referendum question." The actual question is contained

    2 in the first paragraph.

    3 JUDGE MAY: I can't see it.

    4 I've got it.

    5 MR. SAYERS: Sorry for the confusion.

    6 Q. Do you have it in the Croatian version,

    7 Mr. Cicak, the question to be voted upon at the

    8 referendum?

    9 A. I haven't managed to find it yet. Page 4, so

    10 what are we talking about? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, where

    11 could this be?

    12 Then it's not on page 4. You keep insisting

    13 that it's page 4. Yes, but this is page 3, not page

    14 4. Please, do not confuse numbers.

    15 Q. All right, sir. You've now found the

    16 question to be voted upon at the referendum to be held

    17 in March of 1992, I take it, have you?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. You would agree with me, sir, that this was a

    20 source of extremely vigorous disagreement within the

    21 HDZ, and the Livno question was probably the single

    22 most important political issue being discussed around

    23 this time within the HDZ; right?

    24 A. You mean this answer to the referendum?

    25 Q. No, I mean the phraseology of the question to

  74. 1 be voted upon was a source of very significant

    2 disagreement within the Croat community, was it not?

    3 A. There were many questions that led to discord

    4 within the Croatian Democratic Union. This has nothing

    5 to do with disagreement. This is simply an aspiration

    6 of the Croatian people for full independence within

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    8 Q. Well, do you remember one of the meetings

    9 that you talked about was a meeting actually held in

    10 the town of Livno on February the 6th, 1992?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And the Livno question was voted on at that

    13 meeting, was it not, sir?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. You were not at that meeting, though, were

    16 you?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. You do understand that the vote on that Livno

    19 question -- and I'll present the question to the Trial

    20 Chamber in a minute or two -- the vote was, I believe,

    21 137 votes -- 140 votes in favour of the proposal, 3

    22 against, and 4 abstentions. Does that sound familiar?

    23 A. It does sound familiar, but absolutely, this

    24 question is not important for the Croatian people.

    25 This question, they simply wanted to politicise it.

  75. 1 MR. SAYERS: I'm just handing up to the Court

    2 the proposal that was considered at the February 6th,

    3 1992, meeting at Livno, and this was the phraseology of

    4 the referendum question that was advocated by the

    5 elected representatives of the party at that meeting,

    6 both in English and Croatian.

    7 I'm sorry, Judge Bennouna, we have not yet

    8 had time to translate it into French.

    9 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit is marked D12/1.

    10 MR. SAYERS:

    11 Q. Now, the document that's been put in front of

    12 you contains the question that was voted on at Livno in

    13 February of 1992, doesn't it? It's familiar to you?

    14 That's a truthful statement, isn't it, Mr. Cicak?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. All right. The next document I'd like you to

    17 see, if you don't mind, is --

    18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Sayers,

    19 as regards this question and the question of the vote,

    20 there may be a mistake, possibly, in the transcript.

    21 You said that there were 137 votes, and then 140 in

    22 favour of the proposal, 3 against, and 4 abstentions,

    23 so that would come to 147 and not 137, as is written

    24 here. So that would have been 147 people voting,

    25 casting a vote, 140, with 3 against, and 4

  76. 1 abstentions? Is that so?

    2 MR. SAYERS: I think your mathematics are

    3 spot on, Your Honour, and the problem derives from a

    4 garbled question on my part, for which I apologise.

    5 Maybe I can clear it up with a couple of follow-up

    6 questions to the witness.

    7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, this witness was not

    8 present at the meeting, and it may be more appropriate

    9 to ask another witness about it.

    10 MR. SAYERS: I'm delighted to do that, Your

    11 Honour, but in answer to Judge Bennouna's question, I'm

    12 more than happy to provide the actual numbers, if the

    13 Court wants.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Well, we'll ask this witness:

    15 Can you help, Mr. Cicak, on the precise numbers of the

    16 voting? You weren't present at the meeting, were you?

    17 A. No, but I can't help at all regarding the

    18 exact number of persons who were present. I don't

    19 think that anyone knew the number, that is to say, how

    20 many people were present. I don't know whether they

    21 were counted before that, registered, recorded in any

    22 way. This was really Mr. Kostroman's affair.

    23 MR. SAYERS: I'll move on, Your Honour.

    24 Q. Would it be fair to say that prior to

    25 February the 27th of 1992, the sense in the party was

  77. 1 that there would be no support for this particular

    2 Livno question, or this particular proposal, for the

    3 referendum that had been put forth by the government of

    4 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    5 A. I wouldn't like to comment on that, because

    6 this goes beyond my possibilities.

    7 Q. Very well. If you'd turn to Exhibit Z48, I

    8 think you were shown these during your direct

    9 examination. These are minutes dated February the

    10 27th, 1992, of a meeting of the presidency of the HDZ

    11 BiH. Right at the end of the first conclusion,

    12 Mr. Cicak, the presidency of the national party calls

    13 upon all Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina to do their duty

    14 and participate in the referendum; isn't that correct?

    15 A. But I don't know where you're reading it

    16 from.

    17 Q. I don't know whether the translation -- or

    18 the Croatian version that you've been given is clear

    19 enough to read on that subject, but let me just suggest

    20 to you that the English version reads as follows, at

    21 the end of paragraph 1: "Consequently, we call upon

    22 the members of the Croatian Democratic Union of Bosnia

    23 and Herzegovina and all the Croats of Bosnia and

    24 Herzegovina to do their duty and participate in the

    25 referendum."

  78. 1 Do you remember hearing any injunction from

    2 the top echelons of the party along those lines at the

    3 end of February, 1992?

    4 A. There was a debate, but as I have said, there

    5 were two kinds of it. First there was a debate whether

    6 the Croat people should or should not take part in the

    7 referendum at all, and that is, it was against their

    8 taking part in it, but the Croat people refused that,

    9 and I should say they all refused it, and they refused

    10 to listen to any injunctions of the Croatian Democratic

    11 Union. Then Mr. Tudjman changed his mind, whether

    12 under pressure of the international community or

    13 whatever, he then obeyed the Croat people, and they all

    14 voted for the referendum. But please don't give me

    15 such documents, because this is completely illegible.

    16 Q. One of the points made in the first paragraph

    17 of this document --

    18 (English translation not available)

    19 A. I'm repeating for the third time, I do not

    20 have this paragraph, and this document is worth

    21 nothing. If you can read this, please do so.

    22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, I don't know that

    23 there's any point in --

    24 (English translation not available)

    25 MR. SAYERS: I'm actually getting the French

  79. 1 translation.

    2 JUDGE MAY: I am getting the French

    3 translation too.


    5 MR. SAYERS: And I fully appreciate your

    6 point. I'll move on, Your Honour.

    7 Q. I would like, if I may, Mr. Cicak, to show

    8 you another document that has not yet been marked as an

    9 exhibit but fits in chronologically with the events

    10 that we've been looking at. All we have, I regret to

    11 say, is the English version, and I believe they were in

    12 the Prosecutor's core documents. It looks like page

    13 5698, and it's a direction by the HDZ BiH, dated

    14 March 4, 1992, directed to all municipal boards of the

    15 HDZ BiH in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

    17 D13/1.

    18 MR. NICE: As it happens, I can assist with

    19 the B/C/S/ version of that, because I have, today,

    20 finally had prepared the bundle of original documents

    21 missing from the core documents, and so if the witness

    22 would like to look at this document, not marking it

    23 because they are bundles that are again to be

    24 distributed in due course, further photocopied and

    25 circulated in due course, if he would like to look at

  80. 1 it at the moment, the original will be provided very

    2 shortly.

    3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness have that

    4 copy, if it's a better one.

    5 MR. SAYERS:

    6 Q. Now, before we actually look at this

    7 document, Mr. Cicak, you referred earlier to the

    8 national referendum that was held, and I believe it was

    9 held on the 29th of February of 1992, and March the 1st

    10 of 1992. Is that consistent with your recollection?

    11 A. Why shouldn't it be? Yes.

    12 Q. Would it be fair to say that of the people

    13 that participated in that referendum, the vote was

    14 overwhelmingly in favour of independence for Bosnia and

    15 Herzegovina, both on the Croat side and on the Muslim

    16 side?

    17 A. And Serbs loyal to the authorities in

    18 Sarajevo; that is, Serbs who did not belong to Radovan

    19 Karadzic and Croats and Bosniaks, Muslims, they voted.

    20 I think that the turnout was fantastic, never since the

    21 overthrow of the ancient regime to this day. I think

    22 that over 90 per cent turned out.

    23 Q. And your recollection is that the referendum

    24 was not, by and large, boycotted by the Serbian part of

    25 the population of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

  81. 1 A. That's a much better question. This was

    2 worded very well indeed. You have to distinguish

    3 between Serbs loyal to the criminal Karadzic and Serbs

    4 who stayed in Bosnia-Herzegovina together with other

    5 peoples; that is, remained loyal to the government of

    6 Bosnia and Herzegovina. So we have two groups of

    7 Serbs.

    8 Q. One of those groups of Serbs boycotted the

    9 referendum pretty much altogether, did they not?

    10 A. Well, yes, as many as there were.

    11 Q. Now, turning to the document that's been

    12 marked as D13/1, were you present at this meeting?

    13 A. Will the usher please help me find the

    14 document? Which is the document D13/1? Can you help

    15 me?

    16 MR. NICE: -- front of him opened. I'll

    17 just check it, if he's not happy.

    18 A. 13/1. Where is it marked?

    19 JUDGE MAY: Give it to Mr. Nice and make sure

    20 it's the right document.

    21 MR. NICE: Yes, it's the right document.

    22 A. Yes, please.

    23 MR. SAYERS:

    24 Q. Were you present at the meeting, of which

    25 this document appears to be the minutes?

  82. 1 A. No, I was not present at the meeting.

    2 Q. By the way, do you know that Mrs. Kordic was

    3 the first person to vote in favour of the referendum in

    4 Busovaca?

    5 A. I'm not familiar with this detail, and I do

    6 not know if Mrs. Kordic voted the first or was somebody

    7 else the first, and I really think it is not of much

    8 relevance.

    9 Q. Mr. Cicak, were you present at an HDZ meeting

    10 held in the town of Siroki Brijeg on February the 2nd

    11 of 1992?

    12 JUDGE MAY: Before you get to that, are you

    13 going to ask any questions about this document?

    14 MR. SAYERS: Yes.

    15 JUDGE MAY: It might be helpful, while the

    16 witness has it in front of him, to ask the questions

    17 about that, or otherwise confusion sets in.

    18 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour, and I'll do so

    19 with all dispatch.

    20 Q. Did you ever discuss, at the local level at

    21 around this time just after the referendum, sir, the

    22 call made upon HDZ municipal boards by the national

    23 political party to the Croatian people to abstain from

    24 any action that might aggravate the already heated

    25 situation?

  83. 1 A. I think you are mixing the two terms. One

    2 thing is referendum, whether we discussed the

    3 referendum, and the second thing, whether we discussed

    4 how not to add fuel to the fire, and these are two

    5 different things. We discussed the referendum at great

    6 length, and I explained why there was a

    7 misunderstanding, because first it was said that the

    8 Croats should not take part in the referendum because

    9 they wanted the secession and wanted to join with the

    10 Republika Srpska. And that referendum gave them

    11 nothing. It meant only something adverse.

    12 Secondly, as for the tense situation and the

    13 duration of relations with others, this, indeed, was

    14 discussed, and all relevant parties in the territory of

    15 the Travnik regional community and over a wider area

    16 were advised to abstain from any activities that would

    17 be likely to cause some conflict. Of course, we could

    18 not really bring such pressure to bear on one party,

    19 which was completely separated from us, and that was

    20 the SDS.

    21 Q. Well, let's just turn to this document,

    22 because there are just a couple of questions I want to

    23 ask you about it.

    24 The first is that there's a reference in the

    25 document to 120.000 well-equipped Serbian soldiers

  84. 1 being present on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    2 Do you agree that that's an accurate statement of fact

    3 at this time in history?

    4 A. I don't know when is that figure, 120.000.

    5 The JNA had a highly-sophisticated army, well equipped,

    6 and it was regrettably in Bosnia-Herzegovina. We could

    7 do nothing to throw it out or, rather, have it moved

    8 elsewhere. Of course, we wanted it to go to the

    9 Republic of Serbia. So it is true, yes.

    10 Q. The presence of these huge numbers of

    11 well-armed, well-equipped JNA forces on the territory

    12 of this brand-new country, was that a source of

    13 tremendous concern, not only to the Croat members of

    14 the community but also to the Muslims, too?

    15 A. Yes. It made all citizens of

    16 Bosnia-Herzegovina worry, and a solution had to be

    17 devised quickly, both by domestic political actors and

    18 international political actors. But it seems that they

    19 turned a deaf ear to this request of ours.

    20 Q. And it's true that the subject of the duty to

    21 save thousands of lives and to prevent bloodshed that's

    22 reflected on the first page of this document was a

    23 subject that was being discussed actively throughout

    24 the Croat community in Bosnia-Herzegovina in these

    25 tumultuous times; isn't that right?

  85. 1 A. Yes. It was actively discussed.

    2 Q. And similarly --

    3 A. Question?

    4 Q. And similarly the statement made towards the

    5 end of this document that, "We must not provoke

    6 inter-ethnic conflicts with the non-Croatian people

    7 living in our territories because that would be fatal.

    8 It is necessary that political parties keep talking and

    9 regularly update each other on the latest

    10 developments," that was a subject that was being

    11 actively discussed within the community of Croats in

    12 these times of turmoil as well?

    13 THE INTERPRETER: Would you please slow

    14 down? The interpreters do not have the document.

    15 A. Yes. It was discussed by the citizens of

    16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but I must tell you one key thing.

    17 As a major expert, you must know that state affairs may

    18 not be tackled by no one party; that is, whatever a

    19 party does, it means a paramilitary operation or

    20 unlawful action and so on and so forth. So, please,

    21 you must bear in mind that all this should have been

    22 done by the State of Bosnia-Herzegovina rather than by

    23 the HDZ, or SDA, or SDP, or the Green, or whichever

    24 party. That is nonsense.

    25 Q. Mr. Cicak, what is nonsense, the statement

  86. 1 that, "We must not provoke inter-ethnic conflicts with

    2 the non-Croatian people"?

    3 JUDGE MAY: No, I'm going to stop this line

    4 of questioning.

    5 A. No, what you asked --

    6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cicak, that includes the

    7 answer. Let's move on. When you come to a convenient

    8 moment, we'll adjourn.

    9 MR. SAYERS: Yes. Just a couple of final

    10 concluding questions with respect to this document.

    11 Q. The gentleman who signed this as the second

    12 vice-president, Vlado Santic, he was actually a

    13 vice-president of the HDZ BiH; is that not correct?

    14 A. Yes. I knew him personally.

    15 Q. He never was a vice-president of the HZ-HB,

    16 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, was he?

    17 A. I did not go into that, and, please, don't

    18 ask me such details. I never thought about that. I

    19 wasn't interested in who was the president of an

    20 unlawful, illegitimate organisation. Will you please

    21 interpret this while there is interpreting?

    22 MR. SAYERS: Your Honours, this would be a

    23 convenient point to break. I'm sure the Court will be

    24 relieved to hear, we've finished our travels through

    25 the chronological documents, and now we're just going

  87. 1 to go into the articles and conclude the examination.

    2 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Half past 2.00.

    3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.59 p.m.























  88. 1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

    2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.

    3 MR. SAYERS:

    4 Q. Mr. Cicak, did we establish in your direct

    5 examination that you had been removed from your

    6 position as vice-president of the local Busovaca HDZ

    7 political organisation in approximately the middle of

    8 March of 1992?

    9 A. That is not precise. That is to say that I

    10 was not removed from my position as president (sic) of

    11 the local Busovaca HDZ, because according to the

    12 statute, that is not within the jurisdiction of the

    13 municipal board. The municipal board cannot replace

    14 the vice-president. It is only the assembly that

    15 elected him that can do so. All the rest is a farce.

    16 Q. All right. Now, in your March the 12th

    17 article, which was marked, I believe, as Exhibit Z59,2,

    18 you described the Croat representatives attending the

    19 Brussels Peace Conference, namely Mr. Mate Boban,

    20 Mr. Vlado Santic, and Mr. Iko Stanic, as variously

    21 weak-spirited, as espousing half-baked concepts, and as

    22 being sick and deranged. Do you recall that article?

    23 A. I do. But again, you're not being precise

    24 and accurate.

    25 Q. It's true, is it not, that Mr. Boban has a

  89. 1 master's degree in economics from Grude?

    2 A. Nobody's mentioned that.

    3 Q. Did you know that Mr. Stanic was a lawyer in

    4 the town of Derventa in the Bosanski Posavina?

    5 A. Nobody's mentioning this, come on, so don't

    6 you mention it either.

    7 Q. Would you please answer the question, sir,

    8 instead of fencing.

    9 A. What am I supposed to say to that?

    10 Q. Mr. Stanic is a lawyer from the town of

    11 Derventa in Posavina to the north of

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina --

    13 A. Absolutely. Yes. I was absolutely not

    14 interested in that, who is a lawyer, who has a master's

    15 degree, who has a doctor's degree, who is a professor.

    16 I was interested in who was a human being and who was

    17 not.

    18 Q. In fact, Mr. Vlado Santic is a professor,

    19 isn't he, sir?

    20 A. I don't want to answer that.

    21 Q. One matter I would like to clear up that was

    22 left hanging a little bit yesterday, if I may, is just

    23 with the next exhibit.

    24 A. No, please, let's finish about Mr. Boban, Iko

    25 Stanic, and their trip to Brussels.

  90. 1 JUDGE MAY: You must allow counsel to ask

    2 questions in the order in which he wishes.

    3 Mr. Sayers, it is easier to follow if we

    4 stick with one document at a time.

    5 MR. SAYERS: I've finished with that

    6 document, Your Honour.

    7 JUDGE MAY: You've finished with 59?

    8 MR. SAYERS: Yes, indeed, sir.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Let's go on to the next.

    10 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, please, the most

    11 important thing has remained unclarified. The

    12 gentleman is putting unimportant questions, minor

    13 questions, and the substantive issues from this

    14 document have not been clarified to this Honourable

    15 Court at all.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cicak, it will eventually be

    17 for us to rule as to what is important and what isn't.

    18 Prosecuting counsel will have a chance to examine you

    19 again after the examination by the Defence, after

    20 cross-examination. If there are important matters to

    21 bring out, they can be brought out then.

    22 Let us now go to the next document, which

    23 is ...

    24 MR. SAYERS: This is an extremely simple

    25 document, which is --

  91. 1 A. Thank you.

    2 MR. SAYERS: -- just a map of the area to

    3 show where Granice and Bare are.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Could we have the exhibit

    5 number, please.

    6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    7 MR. SAYERS:

    8 Q. Looking at exhibit D14/1, Mr. Cicak, would

    9 you agree that map accurately represents the locations

    10 of the village of Granice and the village of Bare that

    11 we talked about yesterday?

    12 A. I don't know which section this is, but I

    13 know it says Bare, and I know it says Granice, Hrasna,

    14 Ravno, et cetera. So I imagine that this is authentic,

    15 that this is part of a geography map.

    16 Q. All right. Thank you. I wonder if the usher

    17 would show you Exhibit 52, please.

    18 Now, right above the article that you spent a

    19 lot of time with the Prosecutor, there's a piece

    20 that's written by the editor, right at the top of the

    21 page, beginning with the word "Vjerovatno,", if I've

    22 pronounced that correctly. Would you just read that to

    23 the Court, please, so that we can have a translation of

    24 what that says.

    25 A. What am I supposed to read?

  92. 1 Q. The paragraph right at the top left-hand part

    2 of the page.

    3 A. I have to read slowly so that interpreters

    4 can keep up.

    5 "Readers have probably had the opportunity

    6 of reading the writings of Mr. Dragutin Zvonimir Cicak

    7 that he addressed to many newspapers in

    8 Bosnia-Herzegovina and in which he used unprecedented

    9 vocabulary to attack the president of the HDZ of

    10 Busovaca, Dario Kordic, the leadership of the HDZ of

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, then the leadership of the Croatian

    12 Community of Herceg-Bosna.

    13 When he wrote again, before he attacked the

    14 friars from Busovaca and Stjepan Kljujic, a meeting of

    15 the municipal board of the HDZ of Busovaca was held

    16 where all present unanimously condemned Cicak's

    17 writing, and a conclusion was also passed to initiate

    18 proceedings for him to be excluded from the HDZ, and on

    19 the spot he was replaced from the post of

    20 vice-president of probably the municipal committee of

    21 the HDZ of Busovaca."

    22 Is that what you wanted?

    23 Q. Yes. Thank you very much.

    24 A. There's a series of inaccuracies here in this

    25 piece, but whether it is for me to say or to you, I

  93. 1 don't know.

    2 Q. Now, just turning for a moment to the

    3 discussions that you had with the Prosecutor concerning

    4 Mr. Boban's alleged relations with the Republic of

    5 Croatia, and specifically turning your attention to the

    6 financial issues that you gave your opinions and views

    7 upon, you never actually saw any money change hands

    8 between Mr. Boban and anybody else, did you?

    9 A. I did. It's not true I didn't see it. But

    10 please, would you tell me, why did I read this piece,

    11 where there are so many inaccuracies, and then you

    12 simply decided to disregard it?

    13 Q. All right. Turning back to the question that

    14 I was asking you about, I wonder if you would take a

    15 look at Exhibit D7/1, please.

    16 MR. NICE: With respect, I think that the

    17 witness has a point.

    18 A. Please, do not put questions and then simply

    19 forget about them.

    20 MR. NICE: If --

    21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice.

    22 MR. NICE: -- the witness does have a point,

    23 something is going to be read out and no question is

    24 going to be founded on it, then the purpose of

    25 cross-examination is being misused. I can deal with it

  94. 1 in re-examination, but I think there are limits beyond

    2 which counsel shouldn't go, and simply using

    3 cross-examination as a vehicle for putting in material

    4 of this type.

    5 JUDGE MAY: Well, this was an exhibit which

    6 you introduced, Mr. Nice. It obviously contains other

    7 material --

    8 MR. NICE: Yes, certainly.

    9 JUDGE MAY: -- which the Defence are entitled

    10 to have translated.

    11 MR. NICE: Certainly.

    12 JUDGE MAY: It might have been better had it

    13 been done in a more neutral way, and that is by getting

    14 it translated by the usual channels rather than asking

    15 a witness to do it.

    16 MR. NICE: I can deal with it in

    17 re-examination, but --

    18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, what was the purpose

    19 of having that section read out?

    20 MR. SAYERS: Well, this was a document that

    21 was introduced by the Prosecution, and it does contain

    22 an opinion of the editor piece, which refers to the

    23 removal of Mr. Cicak from his position at the local

    24 level. I could just have asked him, I suppose, "Does

    25 it say that," but I thought that it would be most

  95. 1 efficient just to get him to read out what it said,

    2 rather than asking him questions about it, Your

    3 Honour.

    4 JUDGE MAY: But it may be fairer to the

    5 witness to allow him to comment upon it, since it does

    6 refer to him, and not necessarily in a complimentary

    7 way.

    8 MR. SAYERS: That's fine.

    9 Q. Do you have any opinions or views about the

    10 accuracy of that particular opinion of the editor,

    11 Mr. Cicak?

    12 A. I do. First of all, it relates to the fact

    13 that I never attacked the friars of Busovaca. The

    14 friars of Busovaca are a religious community of the

    15 Franciscans in Busovaca.

    16 Secondly, I absolutely never attacked

    17 Mr. Stjepan Kljujic.

    18 Thirdly, I never attacked the HDZ of Bosnia

    19 and Herzegovina.

    20 And, fourthly, the municipal board of the HDZ

    21 of Busovaca does not have the right to expel the

    22 vice-president of the HDZ. It can only be done by the

    23 assembly that elected him.

    24 Q. So, the editor of this paper has it all

    25 wrong, in your view, and only you have it all right?

  96. 1 JUDGE MAY: That's a comment.

    2 A. Absolutely, that is your comment, and a silly

    3 one at that.

    4 MR. SAYERS:

    5 Q. All right. Well, let's pass on to the

    6 observation that you just uttered, that you had

    7 supposedly seen money change hands between Mr. Boban

    8 and someone else, which was the question that we asked

    9 about three or four questions ago.

    10 I'd like you to take a look at the statement

    11 that you gave to the Prosecutors approximately four or

    12 five months ago, when you spent three days with them,

    13 November the 10th, 11th and 12th of 1998, and in the

    14 English version, it's on page 7. This is Exhibit D7/1.

    15 A. Could you please be so kind as to tell me

    16 which page you are referring to?

    17 Q. Yes, as soon as I've located it in the

    18 Croatian version. It's on page 7 of the English

    19 version, and it's the first full paragraph. It's on

    20 page 5 of the Croatian version, Mr. Cicak, two

    21 paragraphs up from the bottom.

    22 A. Yes. And what are you interested in?

    23 Q. Now, you told the Prosecutors, just a few

    24 months ago, that, "When Boban came to Busovaca in his

    25 lovely blue BMW, he would bring lots of money, which he

  97. 1 would distribute freely for the acquisition of arms. I

    2 never saw the transfer of money from one hand to

    3 another. Boban is not that stupid."

    4 Did you make that statement to the

    5 Prosecutors just a few months ago, sir?

    6 A. Yes, I did, but at that time I didn't mention

    7 that I did see one money transaction. Actually,

    8 Mr. Boban had given a certain quantity of money. I

    9 think it was several tens of thousands of German

    10 marks. He gave this to the president of the HDZ of

    11 Vares, or some place around Vares. Mr. -- his name

    12 starts with a "P", I think, and his first name is

    13 Slavko or Stanko, and his last name is Pejcinovic, I

    14 think. This gentleman got this money because Vares was

    15 the worst off from among all the municipalities in

    16 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they needed assistance the

    17 most at that point in time.

    18 Q. So despite what you told the Prosecutors four

    19 or five months ago, you've got a different version of

    20 events today?

    21 A. No. These are not different versions of

    22 different events. They are different events, but I

    23 could not tell the Prosecutor everything because it

    24 would have been a 2.000-page volume.

    25 Q. Now, on the subject of President Tudjman, are

  98. 1 you aware that President Tudjman and President

    2 Izetbegovic, now of the newly-independent Republic of

    3 Bosnia and Herzegovina, together issued a series of

    4 joint communiqués to the world community at large in

    5 June or July of 1992?

    6 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. Could you please

    7 explain why you put this question to me?

    8 Q. Were you aware that President Tudjman and

    9 President Izetbegovic issued a joint communiqué on June

    10 15th, 1992, which included, among other things, the

    11 following; paragraph 2 of that communiqué:

    12 "The Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

    13 expresses its gratitude to the Republic of Croatia for

    14 the humanitarian aid and the reception and

    15 accommodation given to a large number of refugees from

    16 Bosnia and Herzegovina"?

    17 A. I'm aware of that. That was one of the

    18 courtesy statements that Mr. Izetbegovic sent to

    19 Mr. Tudjman as a token of gratitude for having received

    20 refugees. Well, it was actually a question of refugees

    21 leaving, but --

    22 Q. Let me finish reading the portion of the

    23 paragraph that I was in the middle of.

    24 "... who have been force to leave their

    25 centuries-old hearths as a result of brutal and

  99. 1 barbaric packs by Chetniks and military forces from

    2 Serbia and Montenegro."

    3 You actually heard that joint communiqué, did

    4 you not, sir?

    5 A. Yes, yes. So what do you want me to tell

    6 you?

    7 Q. Do you also remember hearing, in the same

    8 joint communiqué, in paragraph 3 of that document:

    9 "The Republic of Croatia supports Bosnia and

    10 Herzegovina's efforts for preserving its independence

    11 and repulsing the aggression and is giving and will

    12 continue to give aid to this end"?

    13 A. Yes. That kind of statement was made, and it

    14 caused an uproar in the political circles of

    15 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    16 Q. Do you remember, just two weeks later,

    17 President Tudjman and President Izetbegovic issued

    18 another joint communiqué on the 5th of July, 1992, the

    19 first paragraph of which said:

    20 "The Republic of Croatia has recognised the

    21 sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic

    22 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. We have been trying, with

    23 our actions, to honour this decision."

    24 Do you remember that?

    25 A. Yes, I remember.

  100. 1 Q. Do you also remember that just a few days

    2 after this statement, another statement was issued in

    3 Helsinki, at some peace talks being held in that city,

    4 by President Tudjman and President Izetbegovic, which

    5 contained the following statement in paragraph 5:

    6 "Both presidents reiterate the commitment of

    7 their states to the principle whereby after the

    8 ceasation of war in the territory of Bosnia and

    9 Herzegovina, the internal system of this state will be

    10 set up democratically and on the basis of equality of

    11 the three constituent nations of Bosnia and

    12 Herzegovina"?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. As I understand your previous testimony,

    15 Mr. Cicak, you were not in the town of Busovaca when it

    16 was bombed by the JNA air force on April the 26th,

    17 1992. Is that correct?

    18 A. I don't think that the dates match. I think

    19 this was on the 26th of October, 1992, when the BH HDZ

    20 office was destroyed, and that is when all my private

    21 documents were destroyed as well, those that were in

    22 that office.

    23 Q. In your view, Mr. Cicak, Mr. Kordic was not

    24 any kind of a political leader in Busovaca in the years

    25 1990 or 1991, was he?

  101. 1 JUDGE MAY: What do you mean by that? The

    2 evidence is that he was a political leader. But if

    3 you've got some comment on it you want to put to the

    4 witness, I think you should put it more clearly,

    5 Mr. Sayers.

    6 MR. SAYERS: Well, I will try to do that,

    7 Your Honour.

    8 Q. You have described, in page 3 of the English

    9 version of the statement that was marked as D7/1,

    10 "Mr. Kordic is shy, and quiet, and unwilling to make a

    11 commitment" in the first part of the time period that

    12 your testimony that you covered, and it's on page 1,

    13 actually page 2 of the Croatian version of the

    14 statement on the bottom paragraph.

    15 A. Yes. Go ahead. What did you want to ask?

    16 Q. Your version of events to the Prosecutor a

    17 few months ago was that Mr. Kordic actually attached

    18 himself to Mr. Kljujic in order to facilitate his

    19 rise -- the rise of his political fortunes. Do you

    20 remember telling the Prosecutor that a few months ago?

    21 A. No, no. Mr. -- I'm sorry, I've forgotten

    22 your name too now. Your information is completely

    23 wrong. Mr. Kordic and Mr. Kljujic could not stand one

    24 another, either physically or psychologically. The

    25 relationship between Kordic and Mr. Kljujic, or rather

  102. 1 Mr. Kljujic and Kordic, was quite, quite remote. That

    2 is to say, Kordic did not get close to Mr. Stjepan

    3 Kljujic.

    4 Q. But you told the Prosecutors, just a few

    5 months ago, that Mr. Kljujic never hated anyone, he

    6 just saw himself as way above Mr. Kordic.

    7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sayers?

    8 MR. SAYERS: Yes.

    9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you just point us to

    10 the --

    11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge,

    12 please.

    13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you just point us to

    14 the passage in the English text which refers to the

    15 defendant being shy?

    16 MR. SAYERS: Yes. If you take a look at

    17 page 3, it's the second line down from the first full

    18 paragraph. Sorry if that was unclear, Judge Robinson.

    19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

    20 MR. SAYERS:

    21 Q. Just going down to the bottom of the English

    22 version of the page, and it's the bottom of page 2 as

    23 well of the statement that Mr. Cicak gave to the

    24 Prosecutors a few months ago, you told the Prosecutors

    25 that Mr. Kljujic never considered Mr. Kordic to be his

  103. 1 equal and considered Mr. Kordic to be way beneath him.

    2 Is that accurate?

    3 A. It is.

    4 Q. Now, turning to another subject regarding

    5 Mr. Kordic, he never had any military training, did he,

    6 sir, to your knowledge?

    7 A. I don't know what you have in mind. He is a

    8 colonel.

    9 Q. Are you aware of any military training that

    10 he had?

    11 A. I really wouldn't go -- go now into military

    12 training of somebody. But if somebody carries the rank

    13 of a colonel, I mean to be a colonel means a highly

    14 educated, sophisticated personality. It was very, very

    15 high, because the only one above him was a general. In

    16 other words, my conclusion is that Mr. Kordic, in the

    17 meantime, acquired the high military education almost

    18 up to the general, that is, he became a colonel, the

    19 next step is general, and he did so in some miraculous

    20 way. And that could be only by miracle, the miracle of

    21 God.

    22 Q. All right. Now, let's turn to the incident

    23 that you described in which a beating was administered

    24 to you for two hours by a group of roughians on the

    25 30th of March, 1992.

  104. 1 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Sayers, you

    2 cross-examined about this yesterday, and I have a note

    3 of your asking at least about Mr. Kordic and his

    4 reaction to it, and referring the witness to his

    5 statement. So don't go over all that ground again,

    6 please.

    7 MR. SAYERS: I --

    8 A. Your Honours, may I just put in a word? May

    9 I?

    10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    11 A. One word. Please, don't use the word

    12 "hooligans". It was a paramilitary formation on the

    13 Croatian Democratic Union organised in Busovaca.

    14 Roughians, hooligans are in Rotterdam when Feyenoord

    15 plays.

    16 MR. SAYERS:

    17 Q. You were retired at the time, were you not,

    18 sir?

    19 A. I was never retired, and if you're talking

    20 about retirement as not doing anything, I was always

    21 active socially, and I am active socially now, and I

    22 hope that until the end of my youth, I will continue to

    23 be active. Of course, I only mean a tease about it.

    24 Q. I don't mean that in any critical or

    25 pejorative light, but you actually had retired from an

  105. 1 active work life by this time; isn't that correct?

    2 A. Yes, I had other business.

    3 Q. What age did you actually retire at, sir?

    4 A. Well, as the law specified that one could be

    5 pensioned off.

    6 Q. And at what age were you pensioned off?

    7 A. The full legal grounds prescribed for the

    8 pension, for the retirement.

    9 Q. Have you ever been treated by Dr. Petar

    10 Pavlovic?

    11 A. I think you got the name wrong. He is a very

    12 good man. He is Pero Pavlovic. Mr. Pero Pavlovic

    13 never treated me. And I must tell the Court, to avoid

    14 any noisome questions again, I'm not medically insured,

    15 I do not have my health card, nor have I ever been to

    16 see a doctor in my life.

    17 Q. Well, on that subject, let's take a look at

    18 Exhibit Z66.

    19 JUDGE MAY: 66, I think, comes in various

    20 forms. Which one is it? 66,1?

    21 MR. SAYERS: That's the Croatian version,

    22 Your Honour, I think it is.

    23 JUDGE MAY: Oh. I'm not sure. It's the

    24 medical report, yes, which is, in fact, Z66. You're

    25 quite right.

  106. 1 MR. SAYERS:

    2 Q. Now, there isn't any doubt that you actually

    3 did see a doctor on, I believe, the 1st of April 1992;

    4 correct?

    5 A. But this is not Busovaca. This is a

    6 forgery. I do apologize. I never went to see a doctor

    7 in Busovaca. I know nothing about this document. I do

    8 not even know who signed it, but if it was signed by

    9 Mr. Barac, then I don't know what it had to do with

    10 Busovaca, if you are claiming, that is, that this is

    11 Busovaca.

    12 Q. Well --

    13 A. This document, if it is a hospital document,

    14 when I came beaten, battered, crippled, I preferred to

    15 give you the original rather than such texts, and you

    16 could see the original. Mr. -- I was seen in the

    17 hospital by Mr. Vjekoslav Barac, a member of

    18 Parliament, an eminent citizen, a member of the HDZ

    19 presidency, and he asked Mr. Barac to issue this

    20 document, to examine me, and to establish how could I

    21 be rehabilitated in the quickest possible way. So this

    22 perhaps could be the only document, if that is what you

    23 mean.

    24 As for some others, I don't know. But we

    25 discussed this, and I really see no need why we

  107. 1 should -- if you think -- if you think that it struck,

    2 my physical destruction, battery, beating, that it came

    3 down on me from God, then you are quite wrong. That is

    4 not the way I went to the hospital.

    5 JUDGE MAY: Do you have a question about this

    6 document, Mr. Sayers?

    7 MR. SAYERS: Yes.

    8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, well, would you like to ask

    9 it, please.

    10 MR. SAYERS: Yes, I would.

    11 Q. The words "contusio captis" that you pointed

    12 to in your direct examination, do you know what those

    13 mean?

    14 A. Yes. Why shouldn't I know it?

    15 Q. It just means abrasions on the head, doesn't

    16 it?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Did you have any x-rays in connection with

    19 this beating that was administered to you?

    20 A. All types of examinations I went through, but

    21 the principal thing is that after the beating, after

    22 the blows I received, I had a period of vomiting, of

    23 losing consciousness, and it was only after that that I

    24 went for examinations. I am not a physician, but I

    25 think these are basic -- what do you call them --

  108. 1 symptoms of a brain contusion.

    2 Q. You were told to come back four or five days

    3 later --

    4 A. May I just go back to this document. I did

    5 not go to see the doctor of my own free will, this

    6 document. I was not ill, like any other person, I

    7 mean, one catches a cold or gets the flu and goes to a

    8 doctor. I had to seek medical help because I had been

    9 crippled by the strike fist of Mr. Kordic's.

    10 Q. Did you take any x-rays, sir? I don't

    11 believe you answered that question.

    12 A. Yes, all sorts of examinations, because it

    13 was also suspected that some of my bones had been

    14 broken, that is the hard tissues had been damaged,

    15 because I had those haematoma from the toe to the top

    16 of my head.

    17 Q. But you didn't actually sustain any broken

    18 bones in this assault, did you, sir?

    19 A. Thank God for that.

    20 Q. I'd like you to take a look at the

    21 penultimate document, I'm sure the Trial Chamber is

    22 delighted to hear: Z66,1A. This is a public

    23 announcement that you released the day after you had

    24 been to see the medical people and the day after you

    25 had been to see the security services centre in Zenica;

  109. 1 is that correct?

    2 A. Excellent.

    3 Q. There's no mention of supposedly being asked

    4 questions about the CIA, FBI, Mossad, and so forth, in

    5 this public announcement, is there, sir? The

    6 observations are limited to observations about the KOS,

    7 which is the counter-intelligence service of the JNA.

    8 A. Do I have to answer this question, which is

    9 really ridiculous, Your Honours?

    10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    11 A. If the Defence listened carefully when I

    12 spoke -- and I'm not sure about that, because my

    13 impression was that they were rather absent-minded -- I

    14 said that I was beaten and I was battered. They forced

    15 me to sign, and in two copies, that I was collaborating

    16 with KOS. As an example, so as an example, I added

    17 that then, had they asked me, "Were you collaborating

    18 with FBI, with CIA, or with Mossad, Sigurimi," or

    19 whatever the name may be, I would have written it all

    20 down just to get away from them because I was really at

    21 the end of my physical and psychological tether. All

    22 they asked me to do, I signed, and I do not think

    23 anyone could really read what I had written there. But

    24 check it, sir, in the archives of HDZ, it is called

    25 Pretrugna Slusba Hadze, archives of HDZ. They might

  110. 1 have it. I do hope we have clarified this now.

    2 Q. Thank you for that clarification. The last

    3 statement that you made to the press on that day, April

    4 the 2nd, was that "There will be no investigation in

    5 this case. There will be no criminal charges or

    6 prosecution." Now, you actually made your criminal

    7 complaint to the Zenica security services centre,

    8 didn't you, sir?

    9 A. No. You are misinformed, and this is another

    10 of your mistakes, but you know how to ask questions as

    11 if you were on the other side, namely, I didn't file

    12 criminal charges. I asked, I demanded, I requested

    13 that an inspection be carried out on site, because the

    14 Zenica police were bound, of course, to conduct an

    15 investigation whenever a grave crime had been

    16 committed. And yesterday I said that there were

    17 several statements, several papers, several records,

    18 and 25 photographs. But as he was a Croat and a member

    19 of the HDZ, the police member, or rather the chief of

    20 the police, these documents disappeared. Likewise,

    21 these documents were at the Prosecutor's office, and

    22 yesterday I told the Court that these documents had

    23 disappeared once again.

    24 I do not have the right, when it is a crime

    25 against life or limb, to give up or -- I cannot file

  111. 1 these charges because this has to be done ex officio.

    2 Crimes against life and limb have to be prosecuted ex

    3 officio, and charges have to be brought ex officio. I

    4 said that I would not be filing any charges because we

    5 were going through a time when the state was falling

    6 into pieces.

    7 I mean, both Your Honours and the

    8 Prosecutor's office.

    9 Q. Well, you said that you never made a criminal

    10 complaint. I wonder if we could just turn to the last

    11 document, Exhibit Z65.

    12 Is that your signature on this document, sir,

    13 on the Croatian version of it?

    14 A. This is not a document. This is the report

    15 on the verbally received criminal charge, or perhaps a

    16 criminal offence, or a crime. Your colleagues from the

    17 territory of the former Yugoslavia know it.

    18 Q. If I can focus your attention, sir, on page 3

    19 of the Croatian version: Is that or is that not your

    20 signature?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. This is a report that you signed of a

    23 criminal complaint made to Munib Isakovic in Zenica; is

    24 that correct?

    25 A. There were several people there, but

  112. 1 Mr. Munib Isakovic, that gentlemen is an officer there

    2 in that office, and I suppose there are five or six

    3 persons in that office.

    4 Q. There are some details about the person

    5 making the charge, and you are described as a retired

    6 person. I'm sorry to return to this subject, but I

    7 don't believe that you've answered the question. How

    8 old were you when you actually retired, sir?

    9 A. Old enough, as required by law.

    10 Q. What was that age?

    11 A. Well, now one has to go into calculations.

    12 I'm sorry, I now should start calculating whether it is

    13 37, 36, 35, and so on and so forth. I really don't

    14 think we have all the time.

    15 Q. I think it was a pretty simple question,

    16 sir: How old were you when you retired?

    17 A. I don't know.

    18 Q. All right. Now, you described in graphic

    19 terms during the examination-in-chief that you gave

    20 what was supposedly said by Mr. Zoran Marinic to you as

    21 the beating was being administered to you. There's no

    22 reference to that version of events in this police

    23 report, is there, sir?

    24 A. In this police record, there is absolutely

    25 nothing about what happened on the site, apart from

  113. 1 some dry facts, because it says he came and made a

    2 statement. I could have done it on two pages, in three

    3 lines, or -- I don't know, I mean, this -- this had

    4 nothing, really, to do, except for my request that the

    5 site of the crime be properly inspected, that stock be

    6 taken of it and the records be made. So the record was

    7 made, 25 photographs were taken, and these are all

    8 missing, and this is really a document which is of no

    9 relevance at all, and one can throw it away, but thank

    10 God the archives have kept it.

    11 Q. In the inventory that appears on page 2 of

    12 the English version of items that were allegedly stolen

    13 from your house was a small-calibre sport rifle, wasn't

    14 it?

    15 A. Very nice. It's a very nice rifle, to shoot

    16 birds. I don't really know if you are conversant with

    17 arms. It was made in Brno, by a plant in Brno. It is

    18 very precise, 5-millimetre, and it served me on my

    19 property to chase away -- to chase away vermin; that

    20 is, magpies, crows, and other birds which simply

    21 damaged my crops, flowers, and everything else. An

    22 excellent weapon.

    23 Q. You were warned of the --

    24 A. I even have documentation with me here.

    25 Q. You were warned of the gravity of making

  114. 1 false accusations against you, weren't you, sir?

    2 JUDGE MAY: We had all this yesterday,

    3 Mr. Sayers. We don't need to go through this detail.

    4 MR. SAYERS: There was only one final point

    5 that I wanted to make with respect to this document, if

    6 I might be permitted.

    7 JUDGE MAY: Well, what's the point?

    8 MR. SAYERS: He identified six people as

    9 being responsible for the a attack on him, two of whom

    10 we did go over, Dario Brnada and Marko Kulic and the

    11 other four identified by name, Your Honour.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Very well. You asked questions

    13 about this yesterday, and that's sufficient. Now, is

    14 there anything else?

    15 MR. SAYERS: Just one final comment.

    16 Q. You described some of the derogatory comments

    17 that Mr. Kordic had supposedly made about Muslims on

    18 TV. In the process of your preparation for your

    19 testimony over the last week or so, were you ever shown

    20 any clips of those television broadcasts, Mr. Cicak?

    21 A. No, but if Your Honours would like that, I

    22 can submit those excerpts. They are at Radio Zenica.

    23 Those are journalist who attended press conferences

    24 held by Mr. Kordic, who used those disparaging

    25 terminology about Muslims, and I believe it would be

  115. 1 worthwhile looking at it, Your Honours, even though it

    2 is really not as important as other things that he

    3 did. But if you listened to me properly and it seems

    4 to me that you are not listening to me all that

    5 carefully, they said that name which Kordic used to

    6 call the Muslims, balija. Balija, it means an outcast,

    7 an outsider. One can understands this as people who

    8 are outcasts, who are -- who don't belong in the

    9 society and if we are referring to Bosnian Muslims and

    10 when they are termed balijas, then they feel offended

    11 by it, because they are citizens which together with

    12 Croats, Serbs, Romany and other peoples living in

    13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, they all live together and make one

    14 community.

    15 You know, the word "balija" is not a

    16 deprecating word, is not an insulting word.

    17 I'm sorry, I don't know. Who was asking me

    18 something?

    19 JUDGE MAY: I'm not asking you anything,

    20 Mr. Cicak, but saying that we've heard this yesterday.

    21 So can we go on? Is there any other questions?

    22 MR. SAYERS: Just one final question.

    23 Q. Did you work for the press agency --

    24 A. Sir, the gentleman from the Defence is saying

    25 that he's asking his last question, and this is, I

  116. 1 think, the 10th time he's asking his last question.

    2 Could I hear that last question, please?

    3 Q. During your service with the Armija of Bosnia

    4 and Herzegovina in Zenica, did you work for the press

    5 office of the 3rd Corps?

    6 A. No, I never worked for the press office,

    7 because I have no propensity for it. But I could

    8 know -- I had ways of knowing what they did in the

    9 press office, but I paid no attention to it. There

    10 are, however, some articles of mine which can be found

    11 in the then press.

    12 But one thing that I wish to say. I don't

    13 really know if the first accused is here. Between 1991

    14 and this day, I never mentioned his name. This is the

    15 first time I come across his name in the company. He

    16 is, to me, a non-existent person.

    17 MR. SAYERS: Thank you for your patience,

    18 Your Honour.

    19 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

    20 Mr. Kovacic, is there anything you want to

    21 ask?

    22 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour, but I

    23 think the Defence of Mr. Kordic took all the questions

    24 which we had in mind.

    25 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

  117. 1 Yes, Mr. Nice.

    2 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

    3 Q. Do you still have in front of you, just so we

    4 can deal with it now, Z65, the police report? Do you

    5 have that document in front of you, Mr. Cicak?

    6 A. I do.

    7 Q. You were asked several questions about it,

    8 but just one thing arising from the last question you

    9 were asked about names. Will you look, please, to the

    10 third paragraph from the end?

    11 A. The first page?

    12 Q. Second page, third paragraph from the end of

    13 the document, third substantial paragraph.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. In the English version, that reads as

    16 follows:

    17 "I can say that on the following day, I went

    18 to see Ivan Kordic, HDZ president in Busovaca, and

    19 asked him that the money and other things taken by

    20 those six be returned to me and why he had ordered it

    21 to be done to me."

    22 Then will you come back, please, to the first

    23 page, and it's looking at substantial paragraphs -- the

    24 fourth substantial paragraph, where you name the

    25 people, and you say that, "I know two by their names

  118. 1 and surnames, Dario Brnada from Putis and Marko Kulic

    2 from Bare, both from Busovaca." Then the report goes

    3 on to say, "The others are also from Busovaca and are

    4 members of the paramilitary formation of the HDZ

    5 reserve service of Herceg-Bosna." There is then a

    6 colon, and the names are set out, including Dario

    7 Kordic, Sliskovic and Prusac. Do you see that?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Were you telling the police that Kordic had

    10 been one of the people who had attacked you, or were

    11 you telling him that you had asked Kordic why he had

    12 ordered it to be done to you?

    13 MR. SAYERS: I object to that question, Your

    14 Honour, on the ground that this document speaks for

    15 itself, and it's leading.

    16 JUDGE MAY: The witness is entitled to

    17 interpret what it was that he was saying in the

    18 document.

    19 A. May I?

    20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you would answer the

    21 question, please.

    22 A. I kindly ask you to read the document

    23 carefully once again. It says here that I know Dario

    24 Brnada from Putis and Marko Kulic, as we call him

    25 Zelenika from Bare, both from Busovaca, and the others

  119. 1 also from Busovaca, and there should simply be a full

    2 stop there.

    3 On the left-hand side was also a man with a

    4 small beard, and that beard was worn by Svabo. Then

    5 the sentence goes on, "members of the paramilitary

    6 formation of the HDZ reserve service," that is to say

    7 held by Kordic. So I did not say that it was Kordic

    8 who had beaten me, but these were members of the

    9 paramilitary formation that are kept by Dario Kordic,

    10 Anto and Franjo Sliskovic and Igor Prusac. I think

    11 that is quite clear.

    12 MR. NICE: Thank you.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski?

    14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) I'm sorry to

    15 intervene. The witness, Cicak, gave his opinion, and

    16 he read part of this. However, he added a part that

    17 does not exist over here, the part about the man with a

    18 beard. That is not mentioned here in this criminal

    19 report. That is why I had to intervene.

    20 A. Again, I have to say that you did not listen

    21 to me carefully. I said this yesterday, not today.

    22 Please be attentive and listen to what I'm saying.

    23 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. It won't assist

    24 for you to abuse Defence counsel.

    25 There's a matter I should have raised with

  120. 1 Mr. Sayers. It's this: Is there any dispute that this

    2 witness was beaten up?

    3 MR. SAYERS: I don't see how there could be,

    4 Your Honour.

    5 JUDGE MAY: I take it, then, the answer is,

    6 "No, it's not disputed."

    7 MR. SAYERS: I don't think it's disputed.

    8 JUDGE MAY: Then the next point is this: Is

    9 there any dispute that the witness complained to

    10 Mr. Kordic?

    11 MR. SAYERS: Well, I really don't know, Your

    12 Honour, in all candour.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Kordic will know. It

    14 may not be the terms of the complaint, but in general

    15 terms, is there any argument that this witness

    16 complained about being beaten up to Mr. Kordic?

    17 MR. SAYERS: I believe that there was a

    18 meeting, that he complained about having been beaten by

    19 persons unknown, and I also believe that he showed the

    20 bruises that the photographs showed on his body. The

    21 other versions of events that this witness has given

    22 today and in the earlier days, I believe, are

    23 completely inaccurate.

    24 JUDGE MAY: Well, there may be dispute about

    25 the details, but the outline appears not to be in

  121. 1 dispute.

    2 Yes, Mr. Nice, I hope you can finish with

    3 this witness today.

    4 MR. NICE: Oh, certainly. I've only got --

    5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice,

    6 please.

    7 MR. NICE: I've only got about half a dozen

    8 topics, or perhaps eight. And I've only got one more,

    9 I think, on a document that I want the witness to look

    10 at, so perhaps we can deal with that now. 64,2 and 3,

    11 please.

    12 Q. Mr. Cicak, if you look at this, remind

    13 yourself what it is. It's a newspaper article for

    14 which we have a part translation. If you look at the

    15 two second sheets where there is a small block of type

    16 in relation -- on each page, or, no, there's one page

    17 with a small block of type, that part of the newspaper

    18 article reflects your being asked questions by a

    19 reporter and your answering those questions.

    20 If the Court would be good enough to look at

    21 the English version pretty well dead centre of the

    22 block of type.

    23 You were asked yesterday about not telling

    24 the investigators of your account that when you went to

    25 see Kordic after the beating, he told you that he

  122. 1 expected you to come repenting, not complaining. Is it

    2 right that you said that to the newspaper reporter,

    3 when you were asked questions about this attack

    4 immediately afterwards?

    5 A. Did I say this? Yes, yes, it's true. But I

    6 told Kordic that as well.

    7 MR. NICE: Thank you. That can go back.

    8 Your Honour, there's one slightly technical

    9 point. I should deal with it before the witness leaves

    10 the stand. It relates to Defence Exhibit D9/1. This

    11 was a document provided to you in B/C/S/ with an

    12 English translation, following on documentation

    13 provided by the Prosecution to the Defence. You will

    14 recall the document, for you yourself observed that

    15 there was a question mark beside a date. If you

    16 possibly remember it, you observed.

    17 The position is that the English translation

    18 provided by the Defence may, in reality, be somewhat

    19 inappropriate for this reason: The documents provided,

    20 which were, in fact, in excess of our duties and, in a

    21 sense, by oversight, are investigators' notes rather

    22 than an interview. They are not a signed document at

    23 all.

    24 This all happened a long time ago, way before

    25 I knew anything about any of these matters. But I

  123. 1 think the original document was maybe hand-written but

    2 in English, was typed up in English, and the B/C/S/

    3 that was provided pursuant to our obligations, we

    4 having provided the document in English, is a

    5 translation into B/C/S/. There is therefore no need to

    6 re-translate it back. That's not helpful. What you

    7 will need to have, at some stage, would be the original

    8 typed up English notes of the investigator, which

    9 indeed explain why there are question marks present on

    10 the document. They are Exhibit 2704 in the Prosecution

    11 numbering of exhibits, but it may be that you would

    12 rather keep them associated with the Defence exhibit,

    13 the number of which I've just given you.

    14 Hand those in, please.

    15 JUDGE MAY: It may be most convenient if they

    16 go into the Defence exhibits as D9/1(a).

    17 MR. NICE: Thank you. But unless there's

    18 any -- I've explained the position. I don't imagine

    19 it's controversial, and I'm not going to ask the

    20 witness anything further about it. The following

    21 couple of questions -- and I don't desire the witness

    22 to look at it, as I've explained. He doesn't need to

    23 look at it. It was dealing with something at an

    24 appropriate stage.

    25 So the usher can take the document away, and

  124. 1 we'll move on to the next two questions, which can

    2 probably be answered, Mr. Cicak, simply by a "Yes" or a

    3 "No".

    4 Q. In relation to a medical certificate that

    5 you've been asked about, did you have a copy of that at

    6 the time or not?

    7 A. (No audible response)

    8 Q. Here's the original. You have the copy with

    9 you. Thank you.

    10 A. No, no, no. No, no. This is the original.

    11 Q. So did you have a copy -- please listen to

    12 me, Mr. Cicak, because it will make life easier for

    13 you. Were you provided with a copy at the time of your

    14 examination, "Yes" or "No"?

    15 A. During my examination by whom?

    16 Q. By the doctor.

    17 A. I don't know what the procedure at doctors'

    18 examinations is here, but doctors usually write this

    19 down immediately, directly, whatever they see and

    20 ascertain. When he puts all the papers together, then

    21 he writes a --

    22 Q. I'm going to withdraw that question. I'm

    23 going to move on.

    24 Mr. Cicak, I'm going to turn to another

    25 topic, please. Guns.

  125. 1 In the course of this history -- forget your

    2 sporting gun. In the course of this history, did you

    3 receive a gun of any kind, yourself, "Yes" or "No"?

    4 A. I did not receive a gun. I received a

    5 pistol, as a member of the narrow leadership of the

    6 HDZ, and it was free of charge, at that.

    7 Q. Who provided you with that gun?

    8 A. It was at a faraway place, at a man called

    9 Tunjo. His real name is Anto Arapovic, I think, but

    10 his nickname is Tunjo. He's a local person, and he's a

    11 land surveyor, and his house is on the outskirts of the

    12 town of Busovaca itself, and we had a meeting there. I

    13 believe that Anto Sliskovic was there, and Anto Bilic

    14 and others, and Mr. Kordic, and I was given a pistol or

    15 whatever you call it, a very heavy one. It was not

    16 usable, as far as I was concerned, at all, nor would I

    17 have ever used it.

    18 Q. Thank you. Picking up on something you were

    19 asked by Judge Bennouna, in the period 1991 and 1992,

    20 how widely or otherwise did you travel in the State of

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    22 A. '91?

    23 Q. And '92.

    24 A. As far as necessary, but I think I travelled

    25 a lot.

  126. 1 Q. When you went to other locations, did you

    2 meet members of the HDZ in those locations sometimes,

    3 frequently, never, rarely; what was the position?

    4 A. Time to time.

    5 Q. Did you discuss current political matters

    6 with them or not?

    7 A. It depends on the nature of the meeting

    8 concerned. If it was official, then I discussed it,

    9 and if it was a private journey, then we would do

    10 something different.

    11 Q. We know what your views were, and there's no

    12 need to repeat them, but please tell the Tribunal

    13 this: Insofar as you did discuss views with other

    14 people in the HDZ when you met them, were your views --

    15 did they receive any support, were they entirely

    16 eccentric, did they receive a majority of support?

    17 Tell us, but again, briefly.

    18 A. My views were received remarkably well, and

    19 no one ever opposed them, except at the time when I

    20 went through a total collapse, physical and

    21 psychological, when I was beaten up.

    22 Q. That brings me to this next question on the

    23 same topic. You, as we know, were publishing articles,

    24 expressing views in very strong terms. Were you the

    25 only person expressing such views publicly, or were

  127. 1 others doing the same thing, or were lots of people

    2 doing the same thing?

    3 A. I think that many persons presented such

    4 views, but I was the only one from the HDZ who

    5 presented this. However, other citizens also agreed,

    6 or rather presented their views, which were very, very

    7 close to my own perceptions.

    8 Q. You were asked about Busovaca being but one

    9 of 70 or, as you would say, a hundred municipalities,

    10 and therefore your lowly position in the overall

    11 hierarchy of the party. We know that Travnik was one

    12 of several regions. Did all regions and municipalities

    13 have the same degree of authority and importance or did

    14 they have different importance and significance?

    15 A. They had different degrees. One can say that

    16 this was a total disorganisation in the party. There

    17 were some municipalities where there was only a

    18 president, where there wasn't even a board, a

    19 committee, nothing. The Travnik region or the town of

    20 Busovaca were amongst the more organised municipalities

    21 of the HDZ.

    22 Q. It was suggested to you that the first

    23 defendant, Kordic, ceased to be the president of the

    24 Busovaca party on the 1st of April of 1992, and you

    25 appeared to accept that. First of all, do you know, in

  128. 1 the sense that you know from some source, that he did

    2 cease to be the president on that day, the 1st of

    3 April?

    4 A. I think that the date is wrong.

    5 Mr. Glavocevic did not take over this office from Dario

    6 Kordic on that day but later. I have that particular

    7 figure. But should I look it up, should I tell you?

    8 Q. Don't trouble. You're saying you think it's

    9 later. It may not matter.

    10 But this question, please help me. You

    11 became aware of his giving up that office, or losing

    12 that office, or whatever it may be. So far you could

    13 judge, did that change the position of him in relation

    14 to local affairs? Did that change his authority at

    15 all? What was the position, so far as you could judge?

    16 A. This is an excellent question that you've

    17 put. Of course, it should have been put earlier on.

    18 The political, military and civilian

    19 government and authorities, or rather the

    20 administrative authorities at that time, were totally

    21 undivided. Whoever was in power, regardless of where

    22 he was, whether he was the president of the HDZ,

    23 regardless of whether he was commander, regardless of

    24 whether he was president of the municipality, he was a

    25 powerful person, and whatever he said was carried out

  129. 1 by all who were supposed to carry it out.

    2 Q. Who was in power at the time that you're

    3 talking about, that is, before and after any

    4 resignation or dismissal of Kordic from the position of

    5 president of Busovaca?

    6 A. Only one word should be said before that, and

    7 that is that Busovaca became too small for Kordic, for

    8 his ambitions and his development, and therefore he had

    9 to reach an agreement with the municipal board of the

    10 HDZ that he should leave that office, that he should

    11 move further on, because he had aspired for the top

    12 echelons of the HDZ. Mr. Glavocevic assumed this duty,

    13 and later on I found out that he had major

    14 difficulties.

    15 Q. I think my last question is this: It was put

    16 to you in a question that may have been in two parts,

    17 that Mr. Udovicic, himself, proposed the move of the

    18 Travnik regional party to Busovaca, and you may have

    19 appeared to have accepted that proposition, that he

    20 proposed it himself. Just help us. Did Mr. Udovicic

    21 propose that move or not, or can't you remember, or

    22 don't you know?

    23 A. In my modest opinion, Mr. Udovicic would

    24 never have proposed anything that stupid. It is a

    25 well-known thing, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, that

  130. 1 Travnik is a city with a long tradition, the city of

    2 viziers. That it be moved from that town to a village,

    3 that is to say to Busovaca, for Busovaca to become the

    4 centre, possibly somebody else could have proposed it

    5 and then it was accepted by others at the meeting.

    6 MR. NICE: Thank you. Yes, that concludes

    7 all I want to ask this witness.

    8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cicak, it may not matter very

    9 much, but you were asked what age you retired. Would

    10 you like to tell us, or do you have some objection to

    11 telling us that?

    12 A. You are really putting me into an

    13 embarrassing position. Now I have to try to make -- to

    14 do all the math right, how old I was when I --

    15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Cicak,

    16 let us leave aside your personal situation. The

    17 question was put to you, and I believe that you

    18 answered that there was a legal age at which you would

    19 go and retire. So this applies to everybody, doesn't

    20 it, in the country you belong to?

    21 There is an age at which people retire, and

    22 that happens in all countries in the world. So could

    23 you tell us, what is the legal age for retirement in

    24 Bosnia and Herzegovina, there where you were? You said

    25 that there was a rule or a law applying there.

  131. 1 A. Yes, there is. There is a limit, that is to

    2 say that you can retire after 35 years of service or

    3 when you reach the age of 55. That's the way it was

    4 then. I retired a bit earlier, so my pension was 1,5

    5 per cent lower than it would have been otherwise.

    6 JUDGE MAY: Thank you, Mr. Cicak. You are

    7 now released. Thank you for coming to the

    8 International Tribunal to give your evidence. You are

    9 now free to go home.

    10 THE WITNESS: May I say something, Your

    11 Honour?

    12 JUDGE MAY: For the last time, and provided

    13 it's brief.

    14 THE WITNESS: I think that you can allow me

    15 to do so because I am going home.

    16 It is the first time in my life that I was

    17 told that I was lying, and I never would have expected

    18 that from the gentleman of the Defence. If I had been

    19 beaten up, if I had been beaten black and blue, I mean,

    20 for someone to bring this into question, that is beyond

    21 my imagination.

    22 I would like to thank you for everything you

    23 have done for me here. I felt all right, and I believe

    24 that I have contributed as much as I could have.

    25 There is one more thing I wish to say, that

  132. 1 there are quite a few more documents that have remained

    2 unclarified, but you will be the best judge of that. I

    3 have some papers with me that speak about certain

    4 events, and the gentleman had the right to raise these

    5 questions, but he didn't. Regrettably, I shall go home

    6 deprived of having been given the possibility to give

    7 an answer to these questions, and these questions are

    8 very important for me, but thank you for everything.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Since you have finished your

    10 evidence, Mr. Cicak, if you want to talk to the

    11 Prosecution about those documents, you can. No doubt

    12 Mr. Nice will speak to you.

    13 MR. NICE: That will be dealt with.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

    15 MR. NICE: Can I detain you for a couple of

    16 minutes? Nothing to do with this witness, usual

    17 problems, but it's better dealt with.

    18 JUDGE MAY: No more than two minutes.

    19 Thank you, Mr. Cicak. You are free to go.

    20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    21 (The witness withdrew)

    22 MR. NICE: It's the organisation of

    23 witnesses, which is one of the major problems we face

    24 here, as of course you know. I explained the position

    25 yesterday, and I got it wrong, actually. The critical

  133. 1 witness whose timetable is so inflexible, for

    2 understandable reasons, comes in on Monday and won't be

    3 available till Tuesday, and I don't know if I can

    4 accelerate him to be available on Monday. The witness

    5 who will start tomorrow will last, I would have

    6 thought, about a day, but of course so far one's

    7 estimates have been underestimates. He may last

    8 longer, and with cross-examination, he could find

    9 himself taken into next Monday afternoon in any event,

    10 although that would mean over a day and a half.

    11 Possible, but I have plans to try and make his evidence

    12 compact, which might make that improbable.

    13 Next component is Victims and Witness Unit

    14 apparently don't have a precedent for taking a witness

    15 back home midway through evidence and viewed the issue

    16 as one that was somewhat surprising. They do need to

    17 know by 4.30 today whether the second witness, because

    18 it's the second witness I am referring to, who we were

    19 otherwise going to have for a bit of his evidence in

    20 chief, they need to know by 4.30 today whether he is to

    21 leave tomorrow.

    22 JUDGE MAY: Shall we make every effort to

    23 ensure that the witness who you are going to call

    24 tomorrow morning is finished by 12.30 on Thursday?

    25 MR. NICE: Yes.

  134. 1 JUDGE MAY: That would seem to be the most

    2 sensible course, in which you can assist as much as

    3 anybody.

    4 MR. NICE: I certainly intend to. As to the

    5 other witness, if I send him home, which I think is

    6 really the proper course, and if I can't get the other

    7 witness or any other witness here, which is improbable,

    8 for Monday, that would mean that the two hours of Court

    9 sitting allocated for Monday afternoon would be

    10 abandoned, unless there were an issue we could properly

    11 argue.

    12 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    13 JUDGE MAY: We think the witness should go.

    14 There is an argument to be heard about the

    15 admissibility of evidence relating to the search

    16 warrant.

    17 MR. NICE: Yes. We might be able to tee that

    18 up for Monday afternoon. Perhaps I can discuss that

    19 with my friends opposite.

    20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, and let us know in advance.

    21 MR. NICE: Of course.

    22 The only other quick point -- I've exceeded

    23 my two minutes -- is this: The translation of

    24 documents order is about to reach its expiry date --

    25 well, a couple of weeks' time. There are two

  135. 1 documents, both extensive, one in Swedish and one in

    2 Spanish, for which we have no in-house interpreters.

    3 Translation of such documents are farmed out and

    4 subcontracted. It takes time, and of course it's very

    5 costly.

    6 I have asked my friends opposite to consider

    7 those documents -- they have had them in their original

    8 languages already -- and to let me know whether they do

    9 require them to be translated, or alternatively, since

    10 these are not witnesses who will be coming immediately,

    11 whether we can, in respect of those documents, seek a

    12 waiver from the order and put things on hold so as not

    13 simply to run the risk of wasting money.

    14 If we are able to agree a waiver amongst

    15 ourselves, I hope that will be acceptable to the

    16 Chamber; if not, can I bring the matter back to you

    17 tomorrow?

    18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, I hope agreement can be

    19 reached. It seems a sensible course.

    20 MR. NICE: Thank you.

    21 JUDGE MAY: Very well. 9.45 tomorrow.

    22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    23 4.05 p.m., to be reconvened

    24 on Wednesday, the 28th day

    25 of April, 1999, at 9.45 a.m.