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  1. 1 Wednesday, 28th April, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 9.45 a.m.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: It is the case IT-95-14/2-T

    6 (sic), the Prosecutor versus Dario Kordic and Mario

    7 Cerkez.

    8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

    9 MR. NICE: Sorry, I jumped the gun.

    10 Just before the next witness, Zlotrg, is

    11 brought in, I thought it might be helpful if I

    12 explained something about his evidence and how it may

    13 be possible to save time.

    14 He's one of two witnesses who are going to

    15 deal with the next municipality in order, Vitez. The

    16 witness who we've sent back for want of time will

    17 probably be able to give a greater overview of events

    18 than this witness, but this witness can deal with quite

    19 a large period of time.

    20 He was a police officer, and at one stage

    21 between December of 1992 and April of 1993, he made,

    22 and others in his office, made contemporary notes of

    23 particular events, and those notes still exist.

    24 In October of 1994, he made a detailed report

    25 to a judge, in respect of a pending case, which

  2. 1 incorporated those notes covering the period December,

    2 '92, to April, 1993, and also covered events that went

    3 before that, and set out his then recollection,

    4 assisted by further events of what happened after that,

    5 namely, what happened to him when he was arrested and

    6 detained.

    7 And in 1996, he made another report, not

    8 specifically for the purposes of the OTP but for

    9 himself and for police records, I believe, again

    10 dealing with period 1, events that went before, the

    11 period of the notes, and events that happened

    12 afterwards.

    13 The two reports have been served, as I

    14 understand it, on the Defence, and they have possession

    15 of them. I'm not sure that they have, at the moment,

    16 possession of the original notes from the police

    17 station. They don't, but they exist and they can be

    18 made available to them.

    19 It occurred to me, and I discussed this with

    20 my friends yesterday, that certainly by the time we

    21 reach December, '92, it will save time and be the most

    22 efficient way of presenting evidence if he can simply

    23 read from the contemporary notes that he made, which

    24 were reflected in the two reports to which I've

    25 referred, and it may be that the Tribunal will take the

  3. 1 view that it will be more efficient thereafter to allow

    2 him to refer to the reports for the period of time that

    3 came afterwards. I thought if I mentioned it now,

    4 rather than try and explain all that in his presence,

    5 it would probably be helpful.

    6 The first part of his evidence we'll deal

    7 with in the usual way, in any event.

    8 JUDGE MAY: The name of the witness again,

    9 please?

    10 MR. NICE: Zlotrg. It's Z-l-o-t-r-g; first

    11 name, Edib.

    12 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, what we've been

    14 considering is this: If copies of the notes were

    15 available for the Trial Chamber, since we are not in

    16 any national jurisdiction, is there any reason why we

    17 should not have the notes in front of us, and rather

    18 than laboriously reading through the notes, simply have

    19 them as the statement, as it were, in chief; your

    20 highlighting any parts you wish to highlight, and the

    21 Defence cross-examining on any part that they wish to

    22 cross-examine on?

    23 MR. NICE: I entirely agree. I can see no

    24 reason for that not to happen. And the only question

    25 would be whether one would take it further, for

  4. 1 example, in relation to the report made to the judge in

    2 the High Court in Bosnia-Herzegovina in October, 1994,

    3 which sets out matters antecedent to and immediately

    4 after the contemporaneous notes, but of course it's a

    5 solemn occasion, making a statement to a court, and

    6 relying on those as well.

    7 But it may be best if we deal with things

    8 stage by stage. The contemporaneous notes are a

    9 discreet item and they are available.

    10 JUDGE MAY: The notes may be, after all, the

    11 best record, rather than some later record, a statement

    12 made then at a subsequent time. If we had the notes in

    13 front of us, presumably it would be enough to start

    14 with. If anyone wanted to refer to the report for any

    15 particular reason, it could then be produced. But at

    16 the outset, it need not be, I should have thought.

    17 Yes, Mr. Stein.

    18 MR. STEIN: I just want to make clear, as I

    19 understand it, there are three layers of notes, the

    20 original contemporaneous notes which Your Honours have

    21 just ruled on and on which we have no problem; a second

    22 layer, a 1996 compilation of all those notes, and then

    23 ultimately another layer in which the witness uses the

    24 notes to testify. The first layer, we agreed with

    25 opposing counsel. The second and third, I think, was

  5. 1 just covered by your ruling.

    2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, at the outset, then,

    3 we will have the contemporaneous notes.

    4 MR. NICE: Shall I make -- I can make those

    5 available straightaway, because I know my learned

    6 friends, although they've seen the fruit of those notes

    7 in the two reports made in '94 and '96, I don't think

    8 they've have the originals yet. They've been produced

    9 in other trials, I believe.

    10 If those can be made available now, they are

    11 to become Exhibit 332,1, and then before very long,

    12 we'll reach a point where they cut in, because the

    13 evidence, although it starts in '91, it won't take very

    14 long before we get to the end of 1992. Probably by

    15 mid-morning break, I would have thought.

    16 JUDGE MAY: And just to make sure, Mr. Nice,

    17 that I have the reports in order, Mr. Stein referred to

    18 a report or a compilation in '96. In fact, as I

    19 understand it, there was a report in 1994.

    20 MR. NICE: Correct.

    21 JUDGE MAY: October. Was that the one to the

    22 judge?

    23 MR. NICE: It was, indeed, yes, in a pending

    24 case where he was advised to tell the truth and

    25 instructed in his legal duties.

  6. 1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

    2 MR. NICE: And then there was the later one

    3 made in '96 -- Mr. Stein got the order wrong, but I

    4 quite understand that -- which he made, as I understand

    5 it, both for himself and for general police records.

    6 JUDGE MAY: And what we are being handed are

    7 his notes for December, '92, until April, '93?

    8 MR. NICE: Correct.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Can we have the witness,

    10 please?

    11 Mr. Nice, would you deal with one thing which

    12 is on my mind? What is the significance of "Z" on

    13 these exhibits?

    14 MR. NICE: I believe the Registry is better

    15 able to answer that than we are. That's the letter

    16 given to Prosecution exhibits in this case. Why I have

    17 "Z" or "Z," and I'm not going to be in any way

    18 nationalistic about the pronunciation of the last

    19 letter of our alphabet, I don't know. Perhaps I better

    20 say "Z" to show --

    21 MR. STEIN: We have some speculation on that,

    22 but I don't think we should share it.

    23 (The witness entered court)

    24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness take the

    25 declaration.

  7. 1 THE WITNESS: (Interpretation) I solemnly

    2 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    3 and nothing but the truth.

    4 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to sit down.


    6 Examined by Mr. Nice:

    7 [Witness answers through interpreter]

    8 Q. Your full name, please.

    9 A. Edib Zlotrg.

    10 Q. Age?

    11 A. 46.

    12 Q. Where were you born?

    13 A. Nova Bila.

    14 Q. By the time of the late 1980s, what job were

    15 you doing, and where were you living?

    16 A. Until the end of the '80s, I was at the

    17 public security station in Vitez, and I lived in Vitez,

    18 Marsala Tita Street, Number 14A.

    19 Q. Well, you were in those services; does that

    20 represent the police? Is that the police?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Just to go back a touch, what was your last

    23 job before being in the police?

    24 A. I was a car mechanic at the car repair shop

    25 in Vitez or, rather, I was a test driver and the shop

  8. 1 steward in that shop in Vitez.

    2 Q. When you moved to join the police, roughly

    3 what year or precisely what year was it?

    4 A. I think it was 1986.

    5 Q. Did you join the police as a policeman to do

    6 police and detective work, or did you join the police

    7 to do some other type of work?

    8 A. No, I was responsible for equipment at the

    9 public security station.

    10 Q. What sort of equipment?

    11 A. Armaments, ammunition, all of the -- all the

    12 gear for an active policeman. So that uniforms, the

    13 restraint means, and armaments, and the equipment and

    14 the gear of the regular police, and stationery.

    15 Q. In 1991, there were the elections in which

    16 the HDZ had local success. Did that lead to any

    17 changes in the arrangements at the police station?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Namely?

    20 A. Pero Skopljak was appointed our head, and

    21 Saban Mahmutovic was appointed the commander. We

    22 worked normally, as before, until one point in time

    23 when the chief, Pero Skopljak, began to invite every

    24 individual employee of the Croat and Serb origin, and

    25 immediately after that, they began to separate from us

  9. 1 and to put markings on their police uniforms of the

    2 Croatian Defence Council, and every day they were

    3 getting further and further away from the Muslim

    4 people.

    5 Q. When was it, approximately, that this

    6 invitation by Skopljak to Croat- and Serb-origin

    7 employees was made?

    8 A. About a month or two after they took over the

    9 office, after he took stock of the situation at the

    10 police station.

    11 Q. And a word or so about Skopljak: What was

    12 his background?

    13 A. I know that he was a priest in Vitez, and I

    14 guess he married and was thus expelled from the

    15 ecclesiastical orders. I was surprised, I saw his

    16 diploma, and I was really surprised to see that he had

    17 graduated from theology. At least, that is what he

    18 showed us, the document with which he proved that he

    19 was a graduate of a higher school of learning.

    20 Q. You say that there was a distance being

    21 created between Muslims and the others. Can we now

    22 deal with something by way of detail: You had access

    23 to weapons because of your job?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. What started to happen, or what happened, in

  10. 1 relation to weapons, after Skopljak had taken over?

    2 A. Mr. Skopljak began to take the rifles away

    3 from me, and the combat gear, and that is so many sets

    4 of ammunition for every automatic rifle. Naturally, he

    5 always signed receipts when he took them over. That

    6 armament, by and large, ended in the hands of the

    7 members of the Croat people.

    8 On a couple of occasions, I warned him that

    9 he could not behave like that.

    10 Q. His reaction to your warnings?

    11 A. After, he exerted himself to remove me from

    12 that post so he could bring in his own man.

    13 Q. What methods of exertion did he use to try

    14 and remove you from your post?

    15 A. He called me to interviews with him, he

    16 threatened me with notice, and I told him that I could

    17 be removed only by the Minister of the Interior of

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina from the job, because he was the one

    19 that had signed my appointment, and until I received a

    20 document to that effect, I would be responsible for the

    21 stored weapons and ammunition. That happened on

    22 several occasions.

    23 Q. Eventually, did you lose or surrender your

    24 job?

    25 A. Yes, in late '92 I moved over to the criminal

  11. 1 investigation department of that same station.

    2 Q. And was that because you were dismissed by

    3 higher authority or because you surrendered the post?

    4 How did it happen?

    5 A. No, I did not want it to happen.

    6 Q. So were you dismissed, or moved, by higher

    7 authority?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Before we move on in time, can you help us

    10 with a couple of things that Skopljak was doing in the

    11 course of --

    12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice --

    13 THE INTERPRETER: Judge Bennouna, your

    14 microphone, please.

    15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Sorry, the

    16 previous question, I did not quite understand the

    17 answer. You said whether he was dismissed or moved by

    18 higher authority, and the witness answered "Yes." So

    19 it is "Yes," what? I think we did not get a clear

    20 answer to that, because you said either/or, and yet we

    21 received only one "Yes." So I should appreciate it if

    22 this could be clarified, please.

    23 A. I was transferred to the criminal

    24 investigation department at the insistence of Chief

    25 Skopljak, and he brought in to my place, he put in his

  12. 1 driver, Ivica Cosic.

    2 MR. NICE:

    3 Q. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear

    4 before. His driver, Cosic, did he have any experience,

    5 so far as you were aware, of dealing with weapons or

    6 the other equipment that had been in your

    7 responsibility and charge?

    8 A. Yes. He was a policeman in the public

    9 security station, and for a while before I came there,

    10 he did do that kind of work.

    11 Q. Going back probably a little in time, but to

    12 deal with the activities of Skopljak, was there an

    13 incident involving some FAP trucks that occurred?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Can you tell us quite briefly what happened?

    16 A. I do not recall the date, but I remember

    17 coming to work, and then we found two drivers in the

    18 room where officers on duty were. If I am correct,

    19 they came from Vogosca, and they were transporting two

    20 vehicles, two FAP vehicles, full of fuses for the plant

    21 in Vogosca. The transport had been announced, had been

    22 reported to the public security station properly, and

    23 this station was to supply the escort. However, they

    24 were intercepted somewhere between Vitez and Busovaca,

    25 at a place called Klupe, and according to the driver,

  13. 1 they were taken to Mt. Kruscica, to the area of

    2 Zabrdje, municipality of Vitez, and they were left

    3 there during the night.

    4 However, my fellow policeman at the police

    5 station, Mirsad Tatarevic, found the trucks in Tisovac,

    6 a municipality of Busovaca, covered, camouflaged, with

    7 branches. According to his statement, Vlado Ramljak, a

    8 policeman, on one occasion at a hotel, told Mirsad that

    9 Mr. Pero Skopljak had ordered him to intercept the

    10 trucks and liquidate the drivers.

    11 Q. Were the drivers ever seen again?

    12 A. Yes, that morning, they came to report. Had

    13 they been liquidated, they would not have come to

    14 report that they had been robbed. But it was Romljak

    15 who said that this was the first task of that kind, and

    16 that he simply could not perform it.

    17 Q. So the fuses, what were the fuses for, what

    18 sort of equipment? If you know; don't guess if you

    19 don't.

    20 A. I think for shells, because Vogosca, I think,

    21 made shells.

    22 Q. And so that landed up in Tisovac?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. The second thing about Skopljak is his

    25 movements to and from Grude.

  14. 1 A. Every week, Pero Skopljak took the official

    2 vehicle and the driver, Ivica Cosic, and went to

    3 Grude. And according to Cosic, whenever they would

    4 come back from Grude, it would be either escorting a

    5 truck with armaments or bringing in weapons to Vitez in

    6 the official car of the public security station for the

    7 Croat people. And Ivica Cosic was criticising me for

    8 not arming ourselves, because, allegedly, Croats were

    9 defending us as well.

    10 Q. Did any of the weapons allegedly coming back

    11 via this route find their way into Muslim hands or not?

    12 A. No, not at least as far as I know.

    13 Q. These last two matters you've helped us with,

    14 the convoy -- the two lorries, rather, with the fuses,

    15 and the trips, Skopljak to Grude, did they happen in

    16 1991, or 1992, or can't you remember?

    17 A. '91, because in 1992 I was not the head of

    18 the equipment depot.

    19 Q. You did tell us that you lost your job or

    20 changed jobs at the end of 1992?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. But you say in 1992, you weren't in charge of

    23 the depot, so you had lost that earlier?

    24 A. It means on the 30th of December, that was

    25 when I turned over the stock, when the inventory took

  15. 1 place. No, sorry, they went to Grude in '92, that is

    2 where I went wrong, because I spent the whole of '92 at

    3 the depot, so I know that.

    4 Q. I want you to stick with 1991, just to deal

    5 with things, insofar as we can, in periods of time.

    6 What, if any, changes for the life of Muslims

    7 in Vitez happened in the course of 1991, in general?

    8 A. First of all, pressure was exerted against

    9 the Muslim population. Armed members of the HVO were

    10 patrolling Vitez, and they were using derogatory terms

    11 against the Muslims, against the president of the

    12 presidency. They were dismissed from work.

    13 Q. Any other events or types of events that you

    14 can now recall?

    15 A. Well, since the conflict with the Serbs had

    16 already started in Bosnia, then the members of the

    17 Territorial Defence were called up for work duty.

    18 Otherwise, they would not be receiving the aid that

    19 they were entitled to receive. So quite a few members

    20 of the Territorial Defence went back to work and

    21 returned everything that they had received from the

    22 units to the units, themselves.

    23 Q. As between groups of different ethnic

    24 origins, had there been friction in the late '80s or in

    25 1990 in Vitez or not?

  16. 1 A. No, there wasn't any friction.

    2 Q. By 1991 and the end of 1991, was there any

    3 display of friction or of tension between the groups of

    4 people of different ethnic origin?

    5 A. As far as I know, there weren't any conflicts

    6 of wider proportions. Perhaps there was a squabble or

    7 two, but there was nothing, really, in 1991.

    8 Q. Did there come a time when ethnically-based

    9 songs, for example, were to be sung by one group or

    10 another?

    11 A. Well, I already said that the members of the

    12 HVO and the members of the HOS sang songs glorifying

    13 the Ustasha movement and insulted everything that was

    14 Muslim.

    15 Q. Let's move to 1992. The changes that you've

    16 described in 1991, did they continue, or get less, or

    17 get worse in 1992?

    18 A. They got worse.

    19 Q. I want you to deal with some specific

    20 incidents. Try and date them, if you can.

    21 Was there an incident involving a man called

    22 Trako, T-r-a-k-o, in Vitez?

    23 A. Yes. Samir Trako, nicknamed Crni. I think

    24 in May, 1992, he was killed in the hotel in Vitez.

    25 Q. How was he killed?

  17. 1 A. He was hit by two or three bullets from an

    2 automatic rifle.

    3 Q. Who was the officer on duty in the police

    4 station at the time?

    5 A. I don't know who the policeman on duty was,

    6 but I know that I was the criminology technician on

    7 duty.

    8 Q. And for a murder case or a killing of this

    9 kind, was it your duty to attend the scene?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Indeed, when you attended such a scene, did

    12 you go alone or did you go with another official?

    13 A. No, I would go with the entire team for the

    14 investigation. It consisted of an investigating judge,

    15 the prosecutor, the operative worker of the police

    16 station, that is to say, the public security station,

    17 and the criminology technician.

    18 Q. When did you get to that scene first?

    19 A. The next morning.

    20 Q. Was that normal or was there any reason why

    21 there was a delay between one day and the next?

    22 A. It was not normal. I wasn't even notified of

    23 the event. It is only when I came to my regular work

    24 that I was informed.

    25 Q. By whom?

  18. 1 A. The man on duty.

    2 Q. Samir Trako, what ethnic group did he come

    3 from?

    4 A. Muslim.

    5 Q. When you got to the scene with the team, what

    6 did you discover?

    7 A. We found what we were shown by the members of

    8 the HVO. That is to say that we found the alleged

    9 scene where the crime was committed, where the murder

    10 was committed.

    11 As far as I remember, there were only two

    12 holes in the glass and a small blood stain. And I

    13 think there is a record that was compiled by the judge

    14 from the basic court in Travnik, because my notes,

    15 related to this case, remained in Stari Vitez and were

    16 destroyed.

    17 However, we asserted straightaway that that

    18 murder had not been committed there, because there

    19 would have had to be more traces. We should have seen

    20 more than we were presented by the members of the HVO.

    21 And then, on the other hand, we did not find the

    22 perpetrators of the crime at the crime scene.

    23 According to the commander of the military police, Ivan

    24 Budimir, he had run way, which was illogical. I mean

    25 to have a man escape from headquarters of the military

  19. 1 police, full of military police, and that he tried to

    2 escape from there and that he was shooting. That is

    3 what they claimed.

    4 Q. I'm just going to cut across you there with

    5 this question, for explanation purposes: You say that

    6 a man was -- "for a man to escape from the headquarters

    7 of the military police." Although this happened at the

    8 Hotel Vitez, what was the Hotel Vitez used for at the

    9 time?

    10 A. It was the headquarters where Mario Cerkez

    11 was. I don't know what his function was, whether he

    12 was commander of the brigade or commander of the

    13 staff. I really don't know.

    14 Q. Were the premises staffed by military men or

    15 women?

    16 A. Yes, members of the Croatian Defence Council.

    17 Q. And were they armed?

    18 A. Yes, yes, they were always armed.

    19 Q. And what was the overall account for this

    20 killing that was given to you, at your investigation,

    21 by the HVO?

    22 A. They said that Trako tried to enter the

    23 premises where the military police was and that the

    24 officer on duty, Vukadinovic, had warned him and then

    25 shot at him, although Trako was unarmed. And the

  20. 1 commander of the military police, Ivan Budimir, put him

    2 into his car and took him to Travnik.

    3 Together with Trako were two other Muslims

    4 whom the military police of the Croatian Defence

    5 Council also took in an unknown direction, unknown to

    6 us. And only a day or two later, they were handed over

    7 to us, but they had been beaten up.

    8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, may I just have a

    9 clarification? The witness said that Trako tried to

    10 enter the premises where the military police was and

    11 that the officer on duty had warned him and then shot

    12 at him. And then comes the part that I'm interested

    13 in, "although Trako was unarmed." Was that something

    14 that was said to the witness, or does that reflect his

    15 own judgement?

    16 THE WITNESS: I know that he was not armed

    17 for the following reason: The Territorial Defence did

    18 not have any weapons, so all our weapons were at the

    19 front line. So a member of the Territorial Defence

    20 units would go to the front line, fight there for a

    21 while, leave his weapons there and then go back, and

    22 they would be replaced by others. And this is a

    23 statement that was made by Ivan Budimir and the rest.

    24 Also, we did not find any weapons while

    25 carrying out the post-mortem on Trako Samir.

  21. 1 MR. NICE:

    2 Q. What did the HVO say, if anything, about

    3 whether the man had been armed?

    4 A. They didn't say anything in relation to that.

    5 Q. Just that he tried to get into the premises?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 MR. NICE: I hope that meets Judge Robinson's

    8 concern.

    9 Q. You were telling us about how two other men

    10 had been with Trako and had been beaten up before being

    11 handed over to you?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Those two men, what were their names, if you

    14 can help us?

    15 A. One was Petak, and the other person's last

    16 name was Trako as well, but I really can't remember

    17 their first names. But there are medical documents

    18 concerning their condition when they were handed over

    19 to us.

    20 Q. Just "Yes" or "No." Were they able to give

    21 you any account of what had happened at the killing?

    22 A. I did not talk to them. That was most

    23 probably done by the security officer at the command of

    24 the Territorial Defence.

    25 Q. And that officer would be -- can you help us?

  22. 1 A. Efraim Pinjo.

    2 Q. Did you, yourself, see those two other men

    3 when they were handed over?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. So you formed the view that the scene that

    6 you were shown was not, as it were, a true scene?

    7 A. First of all, as far as the shooting wounds

    8 are concerned, and obviously he was shot most probably

    9 by an automatic rifle, probably a big calibre, 762, I

    10 can't remember exactly, but most probably so, and he

    11 was shot at from a very short distance, so there must

    12 have been more bleeding.

    13 Another thing. When a wounded person is

    14 carried from the place where he is wounded, through

    15 this kind of a hallway, which is about 10 metres long,

    16 I think, there had to be blood stains, blood stains on

    17 the floor in this hallway. However, we did not see any

    18 of this.

    19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic?

    20 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Mr. President,

    21 of course I'm trying to avoid any kind of objections

    22 because we work here in a different way, but the

    23 witness has not been identified as an expert and now

    24 he's giving us an expert opinion on the wounds.

    25 If the Prosecutor has grounds for this to

  23. 1 explain how qualified the witness is in forensics, then

    2 perhaps we can have this line of questioning.

    3 Thank you.

    4 MR. NICE:

    5 Q. Just help us, please, Mr. Zlotrg: In the

    6 course of your work dealing with equipment and

    7 firearms, had you had to visit other scenes of

    8 killings, or not?

    9 A. Not only that, I was a criminology

    10 technician, and I conducted such crime-scene

    11 investigations in cases of suicide and murders. And my

    12 job as this kind of a technician is to take pictures of

    13 every wound, to identify them, and after all, we were

    14 taught, in order to become criminology technicians,

    15 what an exit wound is and what kind of bleeding there

    16 is when there is an exit wound, an entrance wound, and

    17 that's my job.

    18 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we find that he is

    20 sufficiently expert for these purposes.

    21 MR. NICE:

    22 Q. Returning to the question of blood stains in

    23 the hallway, you didn't see any of those where you

    24 expected them. Any other features of the scene that

    25 you haven't covered already that alerted your

  24. 1 suspicions?

    2 A. There were two holes in the glass door, and 5

    3 or 6 metres away from that is another glass wall which

    4 was not affected by bullets or anything else. I think

    5 that a bullet that would pass through one piece of

    6 glass would have to, if not break, then at least damage

    7 this other glass pane. But we never found anything

    8 like it.

    9 Q. Did you ever find evidence of any other scene

    10 where the crime may have been committed, or not?

    11 A. No. No. We were not even allowed to go

    12 further.

    13 Q. The delay between the alleged time of the

    14 killing and your arrival, whose responsibility was

    15 that? Who had caused that delay?

    16 A. To the best of my knowledge, the policeman on

    17 duty, instead of informing the members of the

    18 investigation team -- that is to say, instead of

    19 informing me, the operations worker, that is to say the

    20 inspector, the investigating judge of the basic Court

    21 in Travnik, and the office of the prosecutor, he called

    22 the head of the police station, Pero Skopljak, and Pero

    23 Skopljak ordered me to have Mr. Vladimir Santic taken

    24 to the crime scene for investigation, and Mr. Franjo

    25 Sucic, who was a criminology technician. They did go

  25. 1 to the scene of the crime, and what they did, I don't

    2 know. I just know that the next day, when we arrived

    3 at the scene of the crime, it was not properly secured

    4 by policemen, and I think that the investigating judge

    5 stated this in his report.

    6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I don't know if you're

    7 going to move on, but --

    8 MR. NICE: I am going to move on.

    9 JUDGE MAY: -- as a matter of principle in

    10 this case, I wonder how much we are going to be

    11 assisted by very great detail about individual crimes,

    12 serious though, of course, they are, in other cases.

    13 MR. NICE: Yes. It depends to whom this

    14 crime may be directly connected in due course, but I've

    15 dealt with what I want to deal with by way of the

    16 scene, and I've got a couple of more questions to ask,

    17 and then I think I probably will be moving on.

    18 Q. Was anybody ever arrested for this crime?

    19 A. As far as I know, no.

    20 Q. Was anybody ever identified by the HVO at the

    21 scene as responsible for the crime?

    22 A. Yes, Vukadinovic. I think his first name is

    23 Perica. He's a military policeman.

    24 Q. And what happened so far as he is concerned?

    25 A. He went away in an unknown direction. He had

  26. 1 weapons too, but then after a few months, he walked

    2 about Vitez as a free man.

    3 Q. Now, I want you to answer the next question

    4 simply "yes" or "no"; do you understand me?

    5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice,

    6 may I interrupt you for a moment. You asked a

    7 question, if anyone had been identified by the HVO as

    8 responsible for the crime, and the witness's answer was

    9 yes, and he gave you a name. How does the witness

    10 know? Is it direct knowledge, or hearsay, that he

    11 learned that the HVO has identified somebody as

    12 responsible for the crime? Because he answered in the

    13 affirmative, and I believe it would be good if it could

    14 be clarified during this session. Thank you.

    15 A. The report says so, that Perica Vukadinovic

    16 shot, and also the statement made to the investigating

    17 judge, that he was the one who did the shooting and

    18 then ran away from the scene.

    19 MR. NICE:

    20 Q. Can you say which member of the HVO provided

    21 that detail?

    22 A. Since Ivan Budimir was commander of the

    23 military police, and he was present during the

    24 investigation of the scene, I think that he was the one

    25 who made the statement.

  27. 1 Q. Coming back to the question that I had asked

    2 you, I want you, please, to answer the next question

    3 simply yes or no. Do you understand me?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Were there rumours as to who had committed

    6 this crime? Just yes or no.

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And again, I don't want you at any stage at

    9 the moment to mention the name of the person against

    10 whom the rumours were made. I just want you to tell

    11 us, as it were, how close or far from any source --

    12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, just a moment.

    13 THE INTERPRETER: The judge's microphones are

    14 on.

    15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we don't want to hear

    16 about rumour.

    17 MR. NICE: I've used the word "rumour" in

    18 order to characterise what may be second- or third-hand

    19 hearsay, rather than to use a technical term, and I was

    20 simply going to discover from the witness at what state

    21 of remove he had any information to help the Tribunal.

    22 I'm quite happy to leave it there because I suspect,

    23 although I can't be sure, that the answer would not be

    24 helpful.

    25 JUDGE MAY: Your characterisation of

  28. 1 "rumour," of course, we understand as not trying to

    2 denigrate the evidence. But nonetheless, that is in

    3 effect what it would be, and as a matter of principle,

    4 as I say, we are against hearing evidence of rumour

    5 because it is liable to be completely unreliable. We

    6 could place no reliance on it when coming to any sort

    7 of verdict. So if you would bear that in mind,

    8 please.

    9 MR. NICE: Certainly. We may, on a future

    10 occasion -- I'm not going to take it further with this

    11 witness, but we may on a future occasion have to find

    12 another formulation of words, because "first- and

    13 second-hand hearsay" is very much a technical term of

    14 art with which we are comfortable and witnesses may not

    15 be, but in any event, let's move on.

    16 Q. The next event is one I want you to help us

    17 with, I think a little later, but give us the date, if

    18 you can. Was there an occasion when Muslim policemen

    19 in the police station were disarmed?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. When, and just in a couple of sentences, the

    22 circumstances?

    23 A. I do not remember the exact date. It says so

    24 in my statement, but I think it was sometime in June or

    25 July that Darko Kraljevic, the then-commander of HOS,

  29. 1 barged into the police station with HOS units and

    2 disarmed Tatarevic Mirsad, Hrustic Safet, and a few

    3 other policemen, locked them up, came back after a

    4 while and said that they could be released because they

    5 didn't need hostages. That is the first time that we

    6 members of the Muslim people were expelled from the

    7 police station. We were not allowed access into the

    8 police station any more.

    9 Q. Any reason given for disarming these people?

    10 A. Well, we didn't sign -- we didn't sign a

    11 paper saying that we would join the police force of the

    12 so-called Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

    13 Q. And whose condition had that been?

    14 A. The Croatian Defence Council.

    15 Q. Who in particular, if anyone, had made it

    16 clear that that was a condition of your continuing

    17 employment?

    18 A. After that, they had a competition, and they

    19 took the Muslims whom the Croatian Defence Council and

    20 the SIS liked.

    21 Q. Yes, and who did that include? Did that

    22 include you?

    23 A. Yes. I was kicked out.

    24 Q. But when you say it was a condition of

    25 signing, who expressed to you or to your colleagues

  30. 1 that you had to sign up to the Croatian Community of

    2 Herceg-Bosna? Who told you that?

    3 A. I cannot remember exactly. I think all of it

    4 started from Pero Skopljak.

    5 Q. So you were now out of the police station?

    6 A. Yes, and all members of the Muslim people who

    7 did not want to state their loyalty, not only us. I

    8 mean, even the employed in the municipal offices in the

    9 municipality of Vitez.

    10 Q. How did you spend your time for the next

    11 weeks and months?

    12 A. Contacting the Ministry of the Interior in

    13 Sarajevo, and they told us to keep quiet, that is, to

    14 stay at home and wait.

    15 Q. In the event, did you continue to receive

    16 your salary or not?

    17 A. From the Ministry, yes.

    18 Q. The Vitez municipal Territorial Defence

    19 headquarters had a logistics section?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Was there an incident there that you can tell

    22 us about?

    23 A. Yes, though it was a long time ago, and I

    24 don't remember the date, but I suppose you have the

    25 date. The Croatian Defence Council attacked, and I

  31. 1 know that two policemen took part in this. Vladimir

    2 Jukic and Vlado Ramljak participated in the attack, and

    3 I know that on that occasion they captured Muharem

    4 Kurtovic, Cazim Ahmic, and Patkovic; I can't remember

    5 his first name.

    6 Q. What was the reason for this attack, so far

    7 as it could be judged?

    8 A. Because they were members of the Territorial

    9 Defence. And looted, because after that, they

    10 plundered, they looted, and massed the stocks that

    11 belonged to the Territorial Defence.

    12 Q. What sort of stocks were they?

    13 A. Food, as far as I know.

    14 Q. Did Skopljak stay in his job as chief of

    15 police or did things change?

    16 A. I think in September, when the politicians

    17 agreed that the police should start working together

    18 again, then Pero Skopljak was removed and replaced by

    19 Mirko Samija, the judge of the basic court in Travnik.

    20 That is when we began to function together again, I

    21 mean, the police station, rather, the public security

    22 station.

    23 Q. So having been at home and keeping quiet for

    24 a couple of months or so, you now returned to the

    25 police station?

  32. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. And for what period of time were you able to

    3 work effectively, or at all, in the police station?

    4 A. I don't quite understand. Since the return,

    5 or generally speaking?

    6 Q. After that return. When Skopljak was

    7 replaced and you returned.

    8 A. About a month.

    9 MR. NICE: If the dates that are in the

    10 statement are not in dispute, it would probably be

    11 helpful if my friends told me, and then I could simply

    12 put the dates to the witness rather than lack precision

    13 where precision may ultimately help.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Is there any objection to that

    15 course?

    16 MR. STEIN: Frankly, with the six statements

    17 that we have, I'm not clear on the dates.

    18 JUDGE MAY: So that it may be simpler if the

    19 witness clarified the dates?

    20 MR. STEIN: Exactly. If he can, but --

    21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. But it may be simplest to

    22 put them to him directly.

    23 MR. NICE: He's referred on several occasions

    24 to his statement.

    25 And for the assistance of Mr. Stein, the

  33. 1 statement that I'm looking at is the one of the 27th

    2 and 28th of September, which is probably the most

    3 comprehensive. I'm on page 4 of that.

    4 MR. STEIN: Which year?

    5 MR. NICE: 1997. And indeed, I'm going to

    6 put the dates of the last four events to the witness,

    7 starting at the top of page 4.

    8 Q. In your statement, Mr. Zlotrg, you said that

    9 the occasion when Darko Kraljevic disarmed Muslim

    10 policemen was the 18th of June of 1992; that the attack

    11 on the logistics section was approximately the 24th or

    12 25th of June of 1992; that Skopljak's replacement by

    13 Samija was on the 21st of September of 1992; and in

    14 line with what you've just said about working for about

    15 a month, that you worked together until about the 20th

    16 of October, 1992. Those are the dates you've put out

    17 in your statement. When you made your statement, were

    18 you able to either recall or research material to

    19 establish those dates?

    20 A. Well, to begin with, I was born on the 21st

    21 of October, so that I associated it with that. That is

    22 why it was fixed in my memory. Secondly, as I have

    23 said, I had my journal, and I noted down all those

    24 events, and also in the archives of the police station

    25 you can find those events recorded.

  34. 1 Q. So the month of working together ended on the

    2 20th of October, and what were the circumstances in

    3 which that cooperation came to an end?

    4 A. In the morning, I started for work, and

    5 naturally, as I came near the station, I noticed

    6 members of the Croatian Defence Council under full

    7 combat gear standing in front of the station. The

    8 flag, the Croatian flag, had been hoisted in front of

    9 the building. So I realised that something was wrong

    10 and I started towards the command of the Territorial

    11 Defence staff.

    12 On my way there, midway, I met the commander

    13 of the station of the public security station,

    14 Mr. Saban Mahmutovic. He asked me where I was going,

    15 and I described to him the scene in front of the public

    16 security station. I told him that it would be better

    17 for him too, to also come with me to the headquarters

    18 to see what it was all about, but he insisted on going

    19 back to the station to see with his own eyes what was

    20 happening there.

    21 Q. Did you go back with him or did he go back

    22 alone?

    23 A. We went back together.

    24 Q. What happened?

    25 A. When we entered the station, since our

  35. 1 offices are on the first floor, we started up the

    2 stairs, but a policeman who had allegedly been on a

    3 sick leave because of some heart problem, Ivo Perkovic,

    4 was in full combat gear, and he ran up the stairs in

    5 our steps, following us, and ordered us to come down,

    6 that we could not come upstairs. But Saban Mahmutovic

    7 asked him, "Well, who is the commander here, me or

    8 you?"

    9 And he went on, and I returned to the room of

    10 the officer on duty. And there I saw about 10 members

    11 of the police in full combat gear, that is, with

    12 armaments, with rifles, and Mirko Samija, the chief or

    13 so, in the uniform. It is the first time I ever saw

    14 him in a camouflage uniform. And there I waited for my

    15 commander. And after about 50 minutes, he came back

    16 and said, "Mirko, what does all that mean?" And Mirko

    17 told him, "Well, don't you see?"

    18 And we left the public security station and

    19 returned to it only in November, '97.

    20 Q. You say that the Croatian flag was hoisted on

    21 the building. Are you able to be specific about which

    22 flag it was that was hoisted?

    23 A. The flag of the State of Croatia.

    24 Q. Nothing to do with Bosnia-Herzegovina at all?

    25 A. None.

  36. 1 Q. Was a meeting arranged for later in October?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. By whom and for whom was the meeting

    4 arranged?

    5 A. It was organised by Mirko Samija, the chief,

    6 in order to again start the joint work of the police

    7 station in Vitez. He invited us to discuss how we

    8 would go on working together.

    9 Q. You attended the meeting; what were the

    10 terms?

    11 A. Yes, all the employed were present at the

    12 meeting, that is, Croats, Serbs, and Muslims. And when

    13 we entered the hall in the municipal hall of the

    14 municipality of Vitez, Mr. Samija opened the meeting

    15 and told us straightaway to fill in application forms,

    16 the Ministry of the Interior of the Croatian Community

    17 of Herceg-Bosna with the seat in Mostar, which meant to

    18 give notice of leave to the Ministry of the Interior of

    19 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And those who had

    20 filled those application forms still did not have his

    21 work guaranteed. But he said, "After you pass SIS

    22 tests,..." that is, the Security and Information

    23 Service tests, "... only those who pass the SIS test

    24 may get the job," so that no one was guaranteed work.

    25 Q. What was your reaction to this proposal or

  37. 1 this requirement?

    2 A. Well, one of us asked him -- at first we

    3 refused it, naturally. And then we asked him, well,

    4 how did he intend to make public order in purely Muslim

    5 villages such as Preocica, Bukve, Kruscica and other

    6 places. And he said that his police would do that,

    7 armed with rifles, with helmets and bulletproof

    8 jackets.

    9 And then the rest of us left the meeting,

    10 because we realised that the meeting had been convened

    11 simply to bring the pressure to bear on us, to make us

    12 join the Ministry of the Interior of the Croatian

    13 Community of Herceg-Bosna.

    14 Q. And did all the Muslims leave the meeting or

    15 did any stay behind?

    16 A. We all left the meeting.

    17 Q. Was a further meeting held that same day by

    18 you and your fellow Muslim policemen?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. The decision that was made?

    21 A. That we should send a request to the Ministry

    22 of the Interior to form a police station in Stari

    23 Vitez, in Old Vitez.

    24 Q. Stari Vitez being part of Vitez or a separate

    25 community?

  38. 1 A. It's a part of Vitez.

    2 Q. If and when we look at a map of Vitez a

    3 little later, we can point it out then.

    4 The decision was made to set up then, the

    5 police station in Stari Vitez. How quickly was that

    6 decision put into effect?

    7 A. We were allowed, by the Ministry of the

    8 Interior, to form and to set up a police station in

    9 Stari Vitez only as late as November.

    10 Q. Before we come to that, there's something

    11 else that I can fit into a chronology of events, and

    12 the Defence will be assisted by knowing that it's the

    13 statement of the 4th of February of this year, a short

    14 statement that deals with it.

    15 Was there, in October of 1992, an agreement

    16 made between residents of Ahmici and the HVO?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Were you aware of it at the time or not?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. Did you come into possession of the material

    21 documentation?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Can you look, please, at Exhibit 245? You

    24 have before you a document --

    25 THE INTERPRETER: Could it be put on the

  39. 1 ELMO, because the interpreters do not have it, please.

    2 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry. A copy can be

    3 brought around to the interpreters straightaway. It's

    4 my mistake for not having provided this one in advance,

    5 and I apologise to the interpreters. The English

    6 version is on the ELMO.

    7 Q. Do you have a document in your own language

    8 with some signatures at its foot?

    9 A. Yes, yes.

    10 Q. So far as the signatures are concerned, some

    11 being said to be for the HVO and some for the Muslim

    12 people, are you able to recognise any of them?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Which ones?

    15 A. Muris Ahmic.

    16 Q. It would help if you identify which side it's

    17 on, HVO or Muslim, and which number it is; first,

    18 second, third, if there are three.

    19 A. For the Muslim people, the first signature.

    20 Fahrudin Ahmic is the third signature, and Islam Ahmic

    21 is the fourth signature. As for the second one, I'm

    22 not quite sure. I think it's Nazir or Nezir Ahmic.

    23 I'm not sure. I didn't know you would be asking me

    24 that because I do have them.

    25 Q. Were these men known to you at the time, or

  40. 1 people known to you at the time?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Are any or all of them still alive?

    4 A. Not one of the four of them is alive. They

    5 were killed on the 16th of April.

    6 Q. The agreement itself, if you follow it in the

    7 original, I'll read the English translation. It's an

    8 agreement between the HVO, Croatian Defence Council,

    9 Santici, and representatives of the Muslim people of

    10 Ahmici, concluded at the home of Nenad Santic on the

    11 22nd of October, 1992.

    12 "4.00 p.m. The Muslim inhabitants of Ahmici

    13 are required to make a list of their weapons and submit

    14 them to the HVO in the interests of preserving the

    15 peace in Santici and Ahmici. To this end, the HVO

    16 Santici shall provide every guarantee to and ensure the

    17 safety of the Muslim people in these areas. The HVO

    18 will, in the foreseeable future, establish a mixed unit

    19 of Croats and Muslims for the purpose of defending the

    20 area from the aggressor Chetniks.

    21 "The mixed unit, that is to say the Muslims

    22 from this unit, will not be used in combat actions

    23 against the Muslims or the Croats in any area.

    24 "On the basis of the above, the return of

    25 both Muslim and Croatian refugees to their homes is

  41. 1 guaranteed, as is their peaceful coexistence. This

    2 guarantee shall be provided by the mixed unit of both

    3 parties."

    4 Does what I have read out, translated by the

    5 interpreters, match what is on the document?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Then picking up the history of events that

    8 more closely at the time concerned you, you say that

    9 the station was not set up, I think, until November or

    10 December?

    11 A. Late November.

    12 Q. Before we come to that, was there an incident

    13 involving a man called Kargic and Hurem and a Yugo

    14 motor car that you can tell us about?

    15 A. Yes. They were Territorial Defence members

    16 who were killed, and --

    17 Q. The date you've given in your statement --

    18 A. Just a moment. There was somebody -- there

    19 was somebody who sustained severe injuries, but I can't

    20 remember the name now. The name escapes me, but he was

    21 also a member of the Armija. Minet Akeljic.

    22 Q. Would you like me to put the date to you from

    23 your statement?

    24 A. Will you read it, please? There are so many

    25 of those dates that --

  42. 1 Q. The 19th of November. By the time of this

    2 incident, had the station in Stari Vitez been

    3 established or not?

    4 A. I don't think so, but I'm not sure.

    5 Q. In any event, learning of the death of these

    6 two men and the injury of the third, did you take any

    7 action in your official capacity, or in your capacity

    8 as a policeman, or did you attempt to take such action?

    9 A. Yes. I was providing technical assistance to

    10 the police during the inspection on site, because they

    11 did not have a technician, a criminal technician. So

    12 that's when I was notified of the event.

    13 I first went to the command of the

    14 Territorial Defence headquarters, and when they

    15 informed me about all the details that were accessible

    16 to them, I went to the military police of the Croatian

    17 Defence Council and talked there to Marijan Jukic. I

    18 don't know if he was the unit commander or whether he

    19 was a member of the military police. And he told me

    20 that for reasons of security, we should try to defer

    21 the inspection until the next day, because there was

    22 dense fog and the tension was very high.

    23 And after that, I went to the civilian police

    24 of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

    25 Q. I'm going to ask you to just pause for a

  43. 1 minute. You and your fellow Muslim police officers had

    2 ceased working at and from the police station where the

    3 HVO were. You had yet or may have had yet to establish

    4 your own police station. But in this intervening

    5 period of time, were you performing police work at all

    6 or not?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. So the initiative you took on this occasion,

    9 was it, as it were, as a citizen or as a policeman

    10 about to be established at Stari Vitez? What was your

    11 capacity?

    12 A. I was there as -- well, how shall I put it --

    13 an extramural associate of the military police of the

    14 Territorial Defence headquarters, because they did not

    15 have that kind of personnel and I was reluctant to

    16 leave the police, the police work, so that this

    17 technical professional part of help during the on-site

    18 investigation, which was to be done by the army by

    19 statute, because if the crime involves military, then

    20 it cannot be the civilian police which will do such an

    21 investigation.

    22 And then the TO commander took me on to

    23 perform all those duties as a criminal technician for

    24 the military police, and that it was in that capacity

    25 as a technician familiar with the criminal

  44. 1 investigation that I worked for.

    2 Q. Thank you for explaining, and you just

    3 previously had told us that you were going to conduct

    4 the on-site investigation on the following day. On

    5 that day, where did you go first?

    6 A. The team which arrived from Zenica, that is,

    7 the higher military prosecutor, military judge and the

    8 team of the security service from Zenica, and so we

    9 were dealing with the murder. At 9.00 they arrived to

    10 the station in Vitez, that is, the station of the

    11 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

    12 Q. What happened there?

    13 A. And then the inspector from Zenica requested

    14 that we go to the Territorial Defence headquarters to

    15 get the particulars about the dead and to conduct an

    16 interview with their superiors.

    17 Q. Did you go off to do that and, on the way,

    18 reach the Vitez petrol station?

    19 A. We did go to the headquarters, and we

    20 finished there. The headquarters gave us a vehicle and

    21 a driver. And the criminal investigation also attached

    22 to us a man from their office, Ramo Vatres, to attend

    23 the on-site investigation.

    24 And as we went there to the scene of the

    25 crime next to the petrol station in Vitez, members of

  45. 1 the military police of the Croatian Defence Council

    2 appeared in front of us, aimed their rifles at us, and

    3 stopped the car and made us, at gunpoint, get off that

    4 vehicle.

    5 I tried to explain to a policeman that we

    6 were a team, that we were a part of the investigation

    7 team, and they could not begin with the investigation

    8 until we arrived, and that it had all been agreed with

    9 the commander of the military police, or whoever he

    10 was, Marijan Jukic. And he simply pointed his rifle at

    11 me and made me move towards the hotel where the

    12 headquarters of General Blaskic were at the time.

    13 Together with me were the driver, and I don't

    14 recall his name, Enes Pojskic, inspector from the

    15 security service centre in Zenica, and Ramo Vatres, a

    16 criminal investigation inspector from the Territorial

    17 Defence headquarters in Vitez. And there is a record

    18 of this, which I handed over to the Prosecutor's

    19 office.

    20 Q. And how long were you detained?

    21 A. They kept us for a couple of hours, until

    22 Mr. Merdan came to negotiate with Mr. Blaskic. And

    23 only after that, we were released.

    24 Q. Were you then able to conduct an

    25 investigation into the killing of these men?

  46. 1 A. We had to. There was nobody else to do it.

    2 Q. And to whom or to what type of person did you

    3 speak, and what type of enquires were you able to make?

    4 A. We were only present there on behalf of the

    5 Armija, and we helped the investigation team which had

    6 come from the security service centre in Zenica. And I

    7 was helping my fellow officer, that is, the criminal

    8 investigation technician from Zenica, there.

    9 Q. And what was the conclusion of the

    10 investigation?

    11 A. I don't know what their conclusion was, but

    12 we subsequently, through operative work, concluded that

    13 the possible perpetrator could be -- just a moment, let

    14 me try to remember the name -- a member of the Croatian

    15 Defence Council, Dragan Botic, who was with them. I

    16 don't mean in their company but in the same coffee pub

    17 in which they had been on the way to Kruscica, and he

    18 must have come out before them and then ambushed them.

    19 But those were only our inferences, which are not

    20 founded -- which are not based on any evidence.

    21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, when you come to a

    22 convenient moment.

    23 MR. NICE: Yes. The next thing is to play a

    24 small video clip of the arrest or the part detention of

    25 this witness. It will take a couple of minutes. It

  47. 1 can be done as conveniently now as after the break, as

    2 you choose.

    3 JUDGE MAY: After the break. We'll adjourn

    4 now for 20 minutes.

    5 Mr. Zlotrg, could you remember, in this

    6 adjournment and any other adjournments there are in

    7 this case, not to speak to anybody about your evidence

    8 until it's over? And that does include members of the

    9 Prosecution.

    10 THE WITNESS: All right.

    11 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

    12 --- Recess taken at 11.18 a.m.

    13 --- On resuming at 11.45 a.m.

    14 MR. NICE: If the unit could very kindly play

    15 the video that covers this incident on the 19th/20th of

    16 November --

    17 JUDGE MAY: Microphone.

    18 MR. NICE: If the audiovisual unit would very

    19 kindly play the very short video that covers this

    20 incident on the 19th/20th of November, '92.

    21 There is no transcript for the television

    22 programme that is being played; it's a very short

    23 extract, it's a news extract. Rather than burden the

    24 translation department last night, which has already

    25 got a lot on its plate, I hoped that we could either

  48. 1 proceed with no translation or with the interpreters

    2 here perhaps reading out the headlines as it comes, but

    3 there is very little text.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Has it got an exhibit number?

    5 MR. NICE: It's Z2235,1.

    6 (Videotape played)

    7 MR. NICE: That's the wrong video. The other

    8 one, please.

    9 (Videotape played)

    10 THE INTERPRETER: (Voiceover) Muslims and

    11 Croats, panic-stricken that they would be killed by the

    12 Chetniks. The Serbs attacked their village too, and

    13 expelled them. They managed to save a few things, and

    14 they are going on an uncertain journey. Two women,

    15 exhausted, sitting by the road. They have been

    16 travelling for hours. They are fleeing their village

    17 that was burned. Their husbands and sons remained at

    18 the front line. The Croat Muslim forces are too weak

    19 to repel the assailants. The mines bother drivers more

    20 than the Serb army, and the UN still hasn't reached

    21 Travnik for justified reasons. Now the old city is

    22 under constant artillery fire from the Serb side. In

    23 Travnik, there are 15.000 refugees, 9.000 of them from

    24 Jajce. If the Serbs manage to take Travnik, they are

    25 going to establish a corridor direct to Sarajevo, which

  49. 1 is 20 kilometres away.

    2 A few kilometres east of Travnik, in Vitez,

    3 as if they had no other worries, the Muslims and the

    4 Croats clashed. The Croats killed two Muslims,

    5 mistreated seven Croatian policemen. Croatian

    6 policemen took the suspects away.

    7 THE INTERPRETER: This is very difficult to

    8 read.

    9 MR. NICE: Thank you. That's as far as I

    10 need go.

    11 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, can you tell us, please, we saw a

    12 car with people getting out of it: Were you shown

    13 there?

    14 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphone

    15 isn't on.

    16 MR. NICE:

    17 Q. Could you turn the microphone on, please.

    18 Press the green ...

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Which one were you? It can always be rerun

    21 if necessary, but we can probably do it from memory.

    22 Which one were you?

    23 A. I was behind the driver.

    24 Q. At the time that you got out of the car, were

    25 you free to move, or were you under some control or

  50. 1 restraint?

    2 A. We were under the control of the military

    3 police of the HVO.

    4 Q. And you were taken from there to --

    5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice, it

    6 was a bit too fast, really, to see anything, as far as

    7 I'm concerned. Could we have a fixed frame shown on

    8 the screen so that we can see it whilst you provide


    10 MR. NICE: I would ask the technicians if

    11 they can pick it up at the end of the passage we were

    12 looking at, in the garage.

    13 (Videotape fixed frame shown)

    14 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

    15 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, can you tell us, please, what is

    16 happening, for example, or what was happening at this

    17 time, and which person are you?

    18 A. I'm the person wearing a long overcoat, and

    19 I'm trying to explain to the military policeman that I

    20 had agreed with his superior officer that we could pass

    21 unhindered in order to carry out an investigation on

    22 the scene in connection with the murder of two TO

    23 members. However, he took us to the hotel.

    24 Q. Who are the other people shown in the

    25 picture? We can see a uniformed soldier on the right,

  51. 1 you with your back to the camera, in the long overcoat,

    2 and then who else?

    3 A. Yes. To my left is the inspector, Enes

    4 Poljskic, from the security services, and the person

    5 between the two of us is a member of the Croatian

    6 military police, or it's our driver; I can't really

    7 tell. It's not a very good photograph.

    8 Q. How many people took you into custody? One,

    9 or more than one?

    10 A. There were more of them.

    11 Q. Thank you.

    12 MR. NICE: I hope that meets the problem.

    13 I'm sorry not to have dealt with it in that way

    14 earlier.

    15 MR. STEIN: Excuse me.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    17 MR. STEIN: A transcription issue. During

    18 the clip, I heard the translator say there were 15.000

    19 refugees going through the city at this particular

    20 period of time, but the transcript doesn't appear to

    21 carry that. I would just like to note that for the

    22 transcriptionists.

    23 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

    24 MR. NICE:

    25 Q. We come then to December of 1992, the time

  52. 1 when the police station in Stari Vitez had been

    2 established or was to be established. I'd like you,

    3 please, to help us first of all with notes made and

    4 records upon which you may be able to rely.

    5 First, from a certain point, were there kept

    6 in the police station hand-written notes, by you and by

    7 other officers, the originals of which still exist and

    8 are with you today?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 MR. NICE: Those are the documents already

    11 produced to the Court as Exhibit 332,1 this morning.

    12 They start, as we see, on the 23rd of December.

    13 Q. Secondly, were you obliged to attend upon a

    14 judge on the 3rd of October of 1994, to provide

    15 detailed answers in relation to a pending case?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. In the course of being interviewed following

    18 a warning as to your -- an advisement as to tell the

    19 truth and a warning of the consequences of giving false

    20 testimony, in the course of doing that, were you able

    21 to list several events, or many events, between

    22 December 1992 and April of 1993?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Were you able then to rely on the original

    25 hand-written notes to which we've just referred, and

  53. 1 also on other notes then available to you?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Accordingly, the list of events in the

    4 document produced to the judge in October 1994 is

    5 longer and more comprehensive than simply the list of

    6 events contained in the hand-written notes?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. On the other hand, the entries in the

    9 document of December 1994, even where they cover events

    10 also covered in the hand-written notes, are frequently

    11 shorter and more succinct?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, what I would invite

    14 the Court to do would be to make an exhibit of the

    15 judicial statement and to rely on that as the document

    16 setting out events between December 1992 and April

    17 1993, both because it's more comprehensive and because

    18 it's for the most part a better summary than the

    19 original hand-written notes. I can then deal with them

    20 briefly, for the most part, and in detail for some.

    21 JUDGE MAY: Is there any objection to that?

    22 MR. STEIN: Not that we won't deal with on

    23 cross-examination.

    24 MR. NICE: Then the previous notes, having

    25 been exhibited as 332,1, in order that those lodging

  54. 1 documents in a chronological sequence can place them in

    2 the right place, these should be given 332,2, and I'll

    3 distribute them now.

    4 If the witness could please look at the B/C/S

    5 version of these, and if the usher could be on hand to

    6 display on the ELMO the appropriate English-language

    7 versions when we come to them, if the document needs to

    8 be detached into two parts.

    9 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, I also want you to have this in

    10 mind: If it comes about, as we look through the

    11 entries and deal with them swiftly, that any of them

    12 have no possible connection, in your judgement, with

    13 matters that were ethnically based at the time and were

    14 simply common crimes, or may have been, will you be

    15 good enough to tell us as much, and we will then strike

    16 them from the list, which in the English-language

    17 version starts at page 5.

    18 Mr. Zlotrg, did you understand my request

    19 about deleting items that are in no way ethnically

    20 connected? As we go through them, not doing all of

    21 them at the moment, but just run through them. Will

    22 you tell me, or will you tell the Court, if you think

    23 that something is simply a common crime?

    24 Very well.

    25 MR. NICE: In which case, Your Honour, we can

  55. 1 deal with this now, I think, really quite swiftly.

    2 JUDGE MAY: There is a point by Mr. Kovacic.

    3 MR. KOVACIC: Mr. President, I'm not sure

    4 whether the witness is the person who is supposed to

    5 look at the events that are listed here and noted here,

    6 whether the witness is the person to draw the right

    7 conclusion and to say, "This has nothing to do with an

    8 ethnic conflict, this is a mere brawl," or "This has

    9 something to do with the ethnic conflicts involved." I

    10 think that it is up to the Court to rule on that. I

    11 think that we should simply ask the witness whether he

    12 knows of these events and whether he wrote this, and

    13 then of course we are going to cross-examine him about

    14 these events. But we do not expect him to be in a

    15 position to draw such conclusions. Thank you.

    16 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    17 JUDGE MAY: We've considered this, and we

    18 think the right conclusion, balancing the need for the

    19 witness to give his evidence, he having knowledge of

    20 these events, against the fact that we shall be

    21 deciding the case and ultimately having to draw

    22 conclusions from the evidence, and those conclusions

    23 may include decisions on what are ethnically-based

    24 crimes and what aren't, we think the simplest way to

    25 deal with it is for the witness to give his evidence,

  56. 1 and if he's asked about a matter which he thinks is

    2 simply a common crime with no ethnic basis at all, he

    3 should say so, and we can then pass on to something

    4 else. If the Defence then wish to cross-examine about

    5 that particular item, of course it's always open to

    6 them to do so.

    7 Mr. Nice, I hope we can take this as rapidly

    8 as possible.

    9 MR. NICE: Certainly.

    10 JUDGE MAY: There are some 10 or so pages.

    11 MR. NICE: Yes, but the pages that relate to

    12 this period only go from pages 5 to 8, I think, or 9,

    13 so that it won't take very long, for the most part.

    14 But there are some entries that may have to be dealt

    15 with in detail, and we may have to go back to the

    16 hand-written notes from time to time.

    17 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, please, then, is it right that on

    18 the 16th of December, the house of Aida Pekmic was shot

    19 at, from Gradina?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Was that a Muslim person?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. On the 24th of December, fire was opened at

    24 the newspaper stand belonging to Hajrudin Karic, a

    25 Muslim?

  57. 1 A. Yes, between the headquarters of the Vitez

    2 Brigade and the headquarters of Mr. Blaskic.

    3 Q. On the 27th of December, the hand grenade

    4 thrown at the Kalifornija store, is that a Muslim

    5 store?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. The 30th of December, an explosive device in

    8 the bar and grill of Smajo Duzo. Is he a Muslim?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. The 8th of January, 1993, members of the HVO

    11 police, commanded by Vlado Jukic, commander of the

    12 police station in Vitez, ordered members of the

    13 Bosnia-Herzegovina army military police to leave the

    14 joint checkpoint at the railway station?

    15 A. Yes, but this is Vladimir Jukic. That is the

    16 period when the flag of Bosnia and Herzegovina was

    17 taken down and when the flag of Croatia remained.

    18 Q. Thank you. The 15th of January, the Big Ben

    19 building of Muharem Sarajlic came under fire, and is he

    20 a Muslim?

    21 A. Yes, and Big Ben is not a building, it's a

    22 restaurant.

    23 Q. Thank you. The 19th of January, an armed

    24 robbery at the private house of Fajim (sic) Mujkic,

    25 property stolen. First of all, is that a Muslim?

  58. 1 A. Yes, and his name is Fehim, F-e-h, et cetera,

    2 and on that occasion a large amount of gold was taken

    3 away, and a pistol as well; family gold, jewellery.

    4 Q. On the 19th of January, a rifle grenade fired

    5 from the direction given of Toljusic at a catering

    6 establishment in Platna Vodica owned by Mesa Hurem. Is

    7 that a Muslim?

    8 A. Yes, and it is called Fatina Vodica in the

    9 part called Kruscica, and his name is not Mesa, but I

    10 don't know his first name. But the last name is Hurem,

    11 and he is the owner.

    12 Q. On the 20th and 21st of January, a refugee

    13 family from Karaula in Nadioci was harassed by a member

    14 of the HVO police?

    15 A. Yes, Zdravko Tomic.

    16 Q. And do you know the ethnic nature of the

    17 refugee family?

    18 A. Muslim.

    19 Q. On the 20th of January, Buljubasic was

    20 stopped at the railway station in an Opel car, with

    21 MUP, and remind the Tribunal, please, what "MUP" stands

    22 for, MUP registration plates.

    23 A. "MUP," meaning the Ministry of the Interior.

    24 But I do not think they had MUP plates. The plates

    25 were simply issued -- civilian plates were issued by

  59. 1 the Ministry of the Interior.

    2 Q. Plates were taken away, as were the

    3 registration plates?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And this was a Muslim?

    6 A. Yes, and they were taken away from him

    7 because the plates were not issued by a police station

    8 of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

    9 Q. The 21st of January, an explosive device

    10 thrown at the house of Saban Mahmutovic, chief of the

    11 Vitez SJB. "SJB" stands for --

    12 A. Yes, he was acting chief in Stari Vitez, of

    13 the police station.

    14 Q. The same day, an explosive device planted on

    15 the premises of a Sarajevo bank. It's set out that

    16 Darko Kraljevic was in charge of the operation, that

    17 Croatian members of the Vitez volunteer fire brigade

    18 attempted to enter the premises of the Stari Vitez

    19 volunteer fire brigade and seize their vehicles, and

    20 you name or somebody has named Marijan Strukar from

    21 Stari Vitez and others as playing a key role in this

    22 operation. The significance of this, please?

    23 A. Well, from what we know, the explosive was

    24 planted by Darko Kraljevic and his associates on the

    25 premises of Privredna banka, Sarajevo, in the Petra

  60. 1 Mecave Street in Vitez.

    2 And the fire brigade, with their fire

    3 engines, were in Stari Vitez, and they tried to seize

    4 upon this incident to get their fire engines from Stari

    5 Vitez. Nobody stopped them to. They simply tried to

    6 get the fire engine and take it into the territory

    7 controlled by the Croatian Defence Council. And from

    8 what we learned, Marijan Jukic, who I believe was the

    9 commander of the fire brigade, tried to get the fire

    10 engine out.

    11 Q. On the 21st of January, two members of the

    12 HVO stopped Mahmutovic on Partizanska Street,

    13 threatened with a pistol, and forced him to drive to

    14 the railway station. They stole his vehicle; correct?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. The 20th and 21st of January, loud

    17 detonations heard in Vitez, or coming from the town of

    18 Vitez, but you were unable or officers were unable to

    19 reach the spot, but six commercial buildings of Muslims

    20 were blown up in the incident?

    21 A. According to our documentation, yes.

    22 Q. On the 21st, Huso Karahodza from Vitez

    23 stopped at the railway station; license plates taken

    24 away, documents destroyed. Was he a Muslim?

    25 A. Yes, and he had plates issued by the public

  61. 1 security station in Stari Vitez and his driver's

    2 license. And if I'm correct, he paid a fine.

    3 Q. The 23rd of January, in Grbavica, Huso Palic

    4 was wounded by HVO members who are named. Is Palic a

    5 Muslim?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And the 25th of January, at the checkpoint in

    8 Polje or Gnevic Polje, members of the HVO police

    9 force -- of the police forced Abdulah Ahmic from Ahmici

    10 and another Muslim in a uniform off a bus travelling in

    11 the direction of Travnik, but let others go through?

    12 A. Yes, but this was Navic Polje, N-a-v-i-c.

    13 Q. Thank you. The 26th of January, the HVO

    14 police stopped Dzananovic, a security officer of the

    15 325th Mountain Brigade, and Refik Kovacevic, at a

    16 checkpoint in Dobravica, and stole their pistols and

    17 two hand grenades?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. I'm just going to intervene, and in order to

    20 keep things strictly chronological, when we can, with

    21 this document, please, Exhibit 410,1. You need two

    22 copies, because it's copied on the reverse side, and

    23 therefore the witness can have it on the side that

    24 reads in B/C/S, and the English version can be put on

    25 the ELMO.

  62. 1 This is a document headed "A proposal For

    2 Reorganisation/Reactivation of the Vitez Civilian

    3 Police", and it refers, in the opening line, to the

    4 27th of January. And does it read, please, as follows,

    5 so far as material:

    6 "That in order to carry out the tasks agreed

    7 upon at the meeting held on the 27th of January in

    8 Vitez, attended by representatives of the BH army, HVO,

    9 Croatian Defence Council government, the HVO staff, the

    10 Vitez public security station and representatives of

    11 UNHCR and UNPROFOR, we submit the following proposal

    12 for the organisation and functioning of the Vitez

    13 public security station:"

    14 Mr. Zlotrg, were you aware of this meeting?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Were you aware of the making of the decision

    17 or not?

    18 A. This was only a proposal made by the public

    19 security station in Vitez, Stari Vitez, which Saban

    20 Mahmutovic, the chief, presented at the meeting.

    21 Q. And so at this time it was possible -- was it

    22 possible to have meetings at this time between

    23 yourselves and the HVO and other external forces such

    24 as UNHCR and UNPROFOR?

    25 A. Yes, but only the commander -- only the chief

  63. 1 of the station could communicate with Mirko Samija.

    2 Q. And the proposal at that stage was that there

    3 should be a public security station called the Vitez

    4 police station; that the employment structure of the

    5 police station would be nationally balanced; that the

    6 police station would, number 3, would temporarily

    7 function according to directives agreed by the

    8 temporary municipal wartime government of Vitez; that

    9 the Vitez police station would start functioning at the

    10 same time as temporary municipal wartime government of

    11 Vitez, and then there were provisions made for signs on

    12 buildings and police vehicles, and that people engaged

    13 to perform tasks and duties since October, 1992, would

    14 be demobilised.

    15 Now, those were the proposals. Did they come

    16 about?

    17 A. Just a moment. Someone was -- there should

    18 have been the demobilisation of all those who joined

    19 the police as of the 22nd of October, '92. That is,

    20 all those people had to leave the police station.

    21 Q. But did this proposal come about or not?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. So that those of you working at --

    24 A. On the 16th -- no, on the 15th of April, '93,

    25 Mr. Saban Mahmutovic made a statement on Vitez

  64. 1 Television in which he said that as of the next day,

    2 that is, the 16th of April, the police station will

    3 begin to work jointly and that they would then begin to

    4 implement this decision.

    5 So it was on the eve of the attack, one day

    6 before the attack, on the local television, he stated,

    7 "We are beginning to work together with our Croat

    8 fellow policemen, and we shall abide by this

    9 agreement."

    10 Q. So that if we now return to the October, '94

    11 document that you have before you --

    12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice,

    13 let me interrupt you for a moment. In this document,

    14 mention is made in English of the temporary wartime

    15 government in Vitez. So does "wartime temporary

    16 municipal government" -- could the witness tell us what

    17 this municipal government was, what this temporary

    18 wartime government is, which is mentioned here in this

    19 document?

    20 THE WITNESS: There should have been an equal

    21 representation of Croats and Muslims during the war.

    22 It was wartime, so we had needed a wartime presidency.

    23 However, as far as I know, it never was

    24 translated into life, and this document refers only to

    25 the work of the police and I really don't know what

  65. 1 happened in the civilian structure of the government.

    2 MR. NICE: It may be the other witness, who

    3 will be returning in a couple of weeks' time, will be

    4 able to help you more fully with that, given his

    5 status. So that if we can pick up, on the ELMO and in

    6 the hand of the witness, the document we were looking

    7 at before, the number of which I've now temporarily

    8 forgotten. It's 332,2, and we are on page 6.

    9 Q. Is it right, Mr. Zlotrg, that on the 30th of

    10 January of 1993, an unknown person reported by

    11 telephone a fire at the house of Ahmet Vehabovic from

    12 Nadioci and HVO authorities did not permit an on-site

    13 investigation team to have access to the scene of the

    14 fire?

    15 A. Yes. It wasn't the first time that we were

    16 forbidden to go to the scene.

    17 Q. On the same day, an unknown person reported a

    18 fire at the house of Muhamed Pezor, and an

    19 investigation pointed to involvement by the HVO?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. On the 31st of January, an Audi motor car

    22 passed through the Divjak settlement several times,

    23 firing at apartment buildings. Fire was returned, and

    24 then HVO members Pavovic from Vitez was wounded in the

    25 elbow and Kolak from Vitez, the driver of the Audi,

  66. 1 apparently caused the incident. It occurred near a

    2 United Nations base, and personnel came to look for

    3 bullet castings. The motor car returned, and fire was

    4 opened at UN staff and local inhabitants.

    5 Are you able to say, in relation to the

    6 apartment buildings concerned, whether they had a

    7 particular ethnic occupation or not?

    8 A. Yes. Muslims.

    9 Q. On the 1st of February, at 19.10, an unknown

    10 person threw an explosive device at Devad Mujanovic's

    11 house near the railway station, but no one was

    12 injured. Is he a Muslim?

    13 A. Yes, and his name is Mujanovic,

    14 M-u-j-a-n-o-v-i-c.

    15 Q. On the 2nd of February -- sorry about my

    16 pronunciation of the names, but it's the best I can

    17 manage thus far -- Topcic, the wife of Salem Topcic, an

    18 employee of the Vitez SJB, reported that an unknown

    19 person wearing a uniform with HVO insignia had entered

    20 her apartment, threatened her with weapons, and stolen

    21 the official pistol of another member -- of Salem, some

    22 Deutschmarks, jewellery and other valuables, and they

    23 waited then for Salem for a while in order to arrest

    24 him, and the police later learned that the incident was

    25 the responsibility of somebody called Kovac, first name

  67. 1 unknown.

    2 A. Yes. Her name was Naila, N-a-i-l-a. They

    3 did not steal it, they plundered it, holding her at

    4 gunpoint. It was an armed robbery. And we were not

    5 really 100 per cent sure that it was Kovac, but there

    6 were certain things which made us believe that it was,

    7 indeed, our colleague Kovac.

    8 At that time, we already were working in

    9 Stari Vitez while we were still living in Vitez, in the

    10 town.

    11 Q. On the 3rd of February, a murder in Nadioci.

    12 Were you part of an on-site investigation team?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. The inquiry revealed that a man by the name

    15 of Brano, but known as Cicko or Cicka, knocked on the

    16 door, shot the victim, inflicting perforating wounds in

    17 the area of his heart; that the wife escaped. The two

    18 young children were captured. The body was taken into

    19 the living room. Explosives were then used, and indeed

    20 the body was substantially destroyed?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Miroslav Brano I think was the name. We've

    23 got a videotape of that just to show the nature --

    24 A. No, Bralo with an "L," B-r-a-l-o.

    25 MR. NICE: We've got a video, I think, that

  68. 1 explains this, and perhaps that could now be played.

    2 It's, thank you very much, Z2559.

    3 JUDGE MAY: What is the video, Mr. Nice?

    4 MR. NICE: It shows the scene of the crime

    5 and shows the results of the explosion. That's what it

    6 shows. This witness went there as one of the scenes of

    7 crimes officers to deal with it.

    8 (Videotape played)

    9 MR. NICE:

    10 Q. This shows the damage done to the house by

    11 the explosion following the killing?

    12 A. I have nothing -- I cannot see that.

    13 MR. NICE: He cannot see it on his screen.

    14 If --

    15 A. Now I can see it.

    16 Q. I'm so sorry.

    17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I distribute

    18 2559A, the transcript of the content that's on the

    19 video? We needn't interrupt the video.

    20 Q. We saw the body there, did we not,

    21 Mr. Zlotrg?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. The head, I think, had been blown off

    24 altogether?

    25 A. Yes.

  69. 1 Q. Is this person an investigator?

    2 A. This is a physician.

    3 Q. Thank you.

    4 MR. NICE: We have the transcript before us

    5 of what the old man is saying.

    6 Thank you very much. That's all we require

    7 of that.

    8 Q. We saw the old man and the two children. I

    9 know we haven't come to the events of April 1993, but

    10 just to deal with this history in one, what happened to

    11 the family in April 1993?

    12 A. Esad Salkic's wife and his two children we

    13 saw here, and the infant was with Esad's -- that is

    14 with the sister of Esad's wife, I think somewhere near

    15 Novi Travnik, or something like that. So that baby was

    16 the only one who survived.

    17 Q. The others were killed in the Ahmici killing?

    18 A. Yes, on the 16th of April.

    19 Q. Thank you. If we move on then. Now back to

    20 the document, to the 3rd of February, still on the 3rd

    21 of February, another incident: HVO police at a

    22 checkpoint stopped a van and forced members of the

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina army out of the vehicle, disarmed

    24 them, and seized their rifles?

    25 A. Yes.

  70. 1 Q. On the 3rd of February, a loud explosion

    2 heard in Ahmici; well, that plainly relates to what

    3 we've just been looking at. 1.500 HVO forces from

    4 Busovaca attempted a breakthrough in the area of

    5 Vranska and Pezici which was successfully repelled.

    6 Can you just explain then, the position as between the

    7 various parties at this stage by reference to that

    8 entry?

    9 A. In that part, to my knowledge -- and I was a

    10 policeman -- but in that part, there were no organised

    11 units of the Territorial Defence.

    12 Q. And therefore, what was happening here by

    13 these forces from Busovaca attempting an infantry

    14 breakthrough, if you can help us?

    15 A. I really don't know.

    16 Q. Very well. The 5th of February, an explosive

    17 device planted in the house of Zijad -- name unknown,

    18 or last name illegible. Do you know who the "Zijad"

    19 was?

    20 A. No, I don't, because we had no access there,

    21 and after that, we did nothing. But I should say that

    22 inspectors did that, that would be more likely, of the

    23 criminal investigation of the criminal police, because

    24 my job was only to collect and document material

    25 evidence of a crime.

  71. 1 Q. 5th of February, members of the HVO police,

    2 including Jozo -- "Buha," is that? -- seized a hunting

    3 rifle from Zijad Pezer from Dubravica. The holiday

    4 cottage of Zaim -- name not legible -- in Zabrdje,

    5 which was used by the HVO for training of its troops,

    6 was set on fire and burnt down. Can you just explain

    7 that, please, for us?

    8 A. As far as I know, from the conversations I

    9 had with my best friend, Radoslav Budimir, he told me

    10 that he went to Zabrdje on several occasions and that

    11 that is where they conducted training of the members of

    12 the Croatian Defence Council. But we were not allowed

    13 access up there.

    14 Q. So the burning down of this house, is this a

    15 Muslim victim or not?

    16 A. Yes. Pozicija Zaim.

    17 Q. Explosive device planted in the holiday

    18 cottage of Midha Hodzic; is that a Muslim or not?

    19 A. Yes. He was the former mayor of Vitez.

    20 Q. And then on the -- maybe the 6th of February,

    21 not entirely clear, looks like it -- Hazim Planincic

    22 from Stara Bila reported that the HVO police had been

    23 looking for him and threatened to kill him because his

    24 son was in the Bosnia-Herzegovina army, and they looted

    25 his apartment?

  72. 1 A. Yes. That was customary.

    2 Q. The 6th of February, a report from Vitez,

    3 from Semsa Romancic, that Nikita Saric and other

    4 members of the HVO police had forcefully evicted her

    5 from her apartment, which was then made available to

    6 someone else, who is said to have worked for the HVO

    7 communications centre?

    8 A. Yes, the apartment was given to Nikica's

    9 brother, Novica. His nickname was "Nona."

    10 Q. The 14th of February, HVO person with

    11 insignia fired a pistol at Muslim houses in Podgradina,

    12 shouting this was Croatia.

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. 15th of February, railway station checkpoint,

    15 HVO police stopped Varupa and harassed him because he

    16 had put a flag with the symbols of lilies on his car.

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. 17th of February, at the checkpoint in

    19 Vranska, members of the HVO stopped a vehicle marked

    20 "MUP" and forced the policemen, Hrustic and Ahmic, out

    21 of the car, disarmed them, and seized their weapons?

    22 A. Yes, and that was the official vehicle of the

    23 public security station.

    24 Q. On the following day, a person with the same

    25 surname as you -- relation or not?

  73. 1 A. Distantly related.

    2 Q. Adem from Vitez stepped on a mine, lost a

    3 foot.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And the road -- I'm so sorry.

    6 A. Members of the Muslim people took that road

    7 all the time because that was the shortest road leading

    8 to Bukve. A lot of people had taken that road before

    9 him because a Muslim funeral was to take place on that

    10 day, but then as he was passing by, he stepped on an

    11 antipersonnel mine and it blew off a foot.

    12 Q. 19th of February, report about a break-in at

    13 a warehouse located in the vicinity you set out in the

    14 note; HOS soldiers thought to be responsible because

    15 the establishment employed mostly Muslims?

    16 A. Yes. That was the warehouse of Sumarija, and

    17 it was in Kruscica, and the members of the HOS were at

    18 the motel. I don't know what its name was.

    19 Q. An account of harassment on the 19th of

    20 February by Varupa. On the 22nd of February, a phone

    21 call from Saban Mahmutovic, resident of the settlement

    22 of Gradina in Vitez, reporting that he had been the

    23 subject of threats to attack his house. This is a

    24 Muslim, is it?

    25 A. Yes. He was chief of the police station,

  74. 1 Vitez, in Stari Vitez.

    2 Q. On the 10th of March, a foreigner was

    3 apparently beaten up and taken by HVO police to

    4 Busovaca. Any significance in that?

    5 A. Yes. My wife told me about it, because she

    6 worked in Kruscica, at the catering company there, and

    7 she said that they had beaten up this man and took him

    8 away, but -- probably to Busovaca, except that we don't

    9 know for sure.

    10 Q. On the 19th of February, unidentified

    11 perpetrators fired at the junction given, singing songs

    12 -- the terms of which are set out in the note; I don't

    13 think I need read them out -- abusive of Muslims, using

    14 the word "Alija"?

    15 A. Yes. And it is interesting to mention that

    16 they were shooting at the apartment of Ivan Santic, the

    17 mayor of the town of Vitez, and members of the TO,

    18 Territorial Defence military police, came to protect

    19 him, and there is an official note to that effect.

    20 Q. 24th of February, armed HVO members went into

    21 the bakery in Vitez, abusive terms -- which are set out

    22 in the note and I'm not going to read out -- used of an

    23 anti --

    24 A. Yes, and there is also an official note on

    25 this. They wanted to slit the throat of a worker who

  75. 1 was of Muslim ethnicity.

    2 Q. Any reason for wanting to slit his throat

    3 that was identified?

    4 A. Because he's a Muslim.

    5 Q. On the 13th of April, two people in HVO

    6 uniforms took some money from a store and from a bag in

    7 the possession of Vahidin Sisic. Do you know what the

    8 store was?

    9 A. I think it was a gasoline station owned by

    10 Krehic Cazim -- Cazim Krehic, on the road that went

    11 round Vitez.

    12 Q. Thank you. Very well. We'll now move to the

    13 events of the 14th, 15th, and 16th of November itself.

    14 JUDGE MAY: November?

    15 MR. NICE: April. I'm so sorry.

    16 Q. But help us, if you will, before we part from

    17 this list of crimes: How did this rate of crimes

    18 involving Muslims as victims compare with former times?

    19 A. We lived in peace. We were friends. We were

    20 best men at each other's weddings with Croats. I was

    21 best man three times over, and no normal person could

    22 understand what happened, why there was such repression

    23 against us.

    24 In '91, the pressure was mainly

    25 psychological, but in '92, especially late in '92 and

  76. 1 the beginning of '93, this pressure was no longer only

    2 psychological, but it was physical too, I mean,

    3 physical mistreatment and the looting of buildings and

    4 the destruction of buildings, and most of the victims

    5 were Muslims.

    6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice.

    7 MR. NICE: Yes.

    8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just ask the witness, in

    9 relation to this particular matter, whether there was

    10 intermarriage between Muslims and Croats.

    11 A. Yes. My brother was married to a Croat

    12 woman, and my other brother was married to a Serb

    13 woman, and unfortunately, both were killed.

    14 MR. NICE:

    15 Q. We'll come to the death of the brother in a

    16 moment, but to amplify your answer, (a), can you -- but

    17 if you can't, don't attempt to guess -- can you put any

    18 estimate on the number of people who had mixed

    19 marriages? Then the second part of the same question,

    20 so that you can deal with it comprehensively, the

    21 second part of the question is: Was there, in your

    22 experience, within any of the ethnic groupings,

    23 antagonism towards the idea or dislike of the idea of

    24 mixed marriages?

    25 A. As far as I know, until the conflicts broke

  77. 1 out, no, but once the conflicts did break out, then the

    2 Croats simply exerted pressure on people who were in

    3 mixed marriages.

    4 MR. NICE: I hope that meets Judge Robinson's

    5 inquiry.

    6 Q. 13th of April, 1993. First, a matter of

    7 detail about the television station, and just bringing

    8 matters up to date: What about Skopljak? What was his

    9 job now in this part of April 1993?

    10 A. If I'm not mistaken, he was president of the

    11 Croatian Defence Council. That is to say that he was a

    12 political leader.

    13 Q. Did he have any role in relation to the

    14 radio/television station?

    15 A. Yes. I don't know the exact date, but the

    16 HVO had mobilised the station that was owned by Pero

    17 Gudelj.

    18 Q. And for what was that station now used?

    19 A. To campaign against the Muslims and against

    20 the Muslim leadership. All the time, they insulted

    21 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, whenever they had an opportunity

    22 to do so, and also they broadcast press conferences

    23 attended by Mr. Kordic, Mr. Kostroman, Valenta,

    24 Blaskic, and other officials of the HDZ.

    25 Q. What was the general content of those

  78. 1 broadcasts, if you can describe it in general terms?

    2 A. They mainly talked about Anto Valenta's book

    3 on humane resettlement, and they attacked verbally the

    4 army, that is to say, the Territorial Defence. They

    5 denied the role the army was playing, and they attacked

    6 the political leadership at all levels, that is to say,

    7 the Muslim leadership. At any rate, they tried to sow

    8 discord between the two peoples.

    9 Q. And as between those two peoples, did the

    10 broadcasts have any, and if so what, effect?

    11 A. Well, yes. After that, the members of the

    12 HVO were patrolling Vitez, and HOS members were doing

    13 that too. They were shooting, singing, shouting

    14 derogatory slogans, and they were riding in trucks, and

    15 you can see from this survey all the things they did to

    16 the Muslim people.

    17 Q. Before we move on to what happened to you,

    18 there is one other matter of detail: Was there a local

    19 company called Unis?

    20 A. It was not really a local company. The main

    21 office was in Sarajevo. But within Unis, there were

    22 three factories: One was for special purposes, the

    23 other one was for explosives, and the third one made

    24 plastic wrappings.

    25 Q. Did anything happen, so far as the local Unis

  79. 1 company was concerned, by this part of April 1993?

    2 A. As far as I know, mines and explosives were

    3 taken out of the Unis factory. I don't know all the

    4 things that they made, but everything that meant

    5 explosives and special-purposes production, they

    6 dislocated that from the factory. That's what the

    7 Croatian Defence Council did.

    8 Q. And where was the material taken, to your

    9 knowledge?

    10 A. First to Kruscica, and then, later, I think

    11 the region of Busovaca, Tisovac. I know about Kruscica

    12 for sure because a driver, a Croat, told me so.

    13 Q. By this stage, in Vitez, what currency were

    14 you able to use?

    15 A. All factories used the Croat dinar as their

    16 currency, and they also opened giro accounts, that is

    17 to say, that all payments went through the SDK of

    18 Croatia. We used the Bosnian dinar, naturally.

    19 Q. Moving on then, from the period that ends as

    20 the conflict begins, on the 15th of April itself --

    21 conflict proper begins -- on the 15th of April itself,

    22 as you've already indicated, was there an announcement

    23 on the news media of an agreement on co-operation being

    24 reached?

    25 A. Yes. Mr. Mahmutovic made a statement that we

  80. 1 would start working together with our colleagues.

    2 Q. Did you hear the statement made?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Did you believe it or not?

    5 A. I would not have been arrested had I not

    6 believed it. I would have left. At least, I would

    7 have had my family leave.

    8 Q. Moving on to the early hours of the following

    9 morning, the 16th of April, at about half past 5.00,

    10 were you in your flat?

    11 A. Yes. I was asleep.

    12 Q. What woke you?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Sorry, what was it that woke you?

    15 A. Detonation.

    16 Q. Coming from where?

    17 A. From the direction of Ahmici.

    18 Q. From your flat, were you able to see other

    19 houses and flats and buildings and so on?

    20 A. Yes, and I saw smoke from the direction of

    21 Ahmici.

    22 Q. I'll show you a map, I think, after the

    23 adjournment, rather than take valuable time now with

    24 setting it up, and it may be after the adjournment we

    25 can even have one that fits onto the ELMO, but I doubt

  81. 1 it. Did you see any movement of people in the streets

    2 at that time?

    3 A. Yes, members of the Croatian Defence Council

    4 in camouflage uniforms. There weren't any civilians.

    5 Q. What were they doing, the HVO members?

    6 A. They were arresting Muslims and killing them

    7 in their apartments. That's what I found out later,

    8 that they were killing them, but they walked into

    9 buildings, and they left some buildings on their own

    10 and others with Muslims. It depended on the actual

    11 assignment they had.

    12 Q. And over what period of time did you see

    13 these movements of HVO soldiers on the morning of the

    14 16th or the day of the 16th, if it lasted longer?

    15 A. Until the 19th of April, when I was

    16 arrested.

    17 Q. Staying with the 18th, did you learn about

    18 your sister at some stage that day?

    19 A. My sister was in Zenica. She was in a safe

    20 place. I don't know.

    21 Q. I'm so sorry, your brother. I'm so sorry.

    22 Your brother.

    23 A. Yes. I found out immediately on the 16th,

    24 his neighbours telephoned me that he was killed and

    25 that my sister-in-law was heavily wounded and that I

  82. 1 was supposed to help her.

    2 Q. What happened, as you were told?

    3 A. Later on I was told that she bled to death,

    4 and I was also told how this event took place.

    5 Q. Namely?

    6 A. In the morning, I don't know at what time,

    7 members of the Croatian Defence Council came to the

    8 door. They were hitting the door with rifle butts, and

    9 when my brother tried to open the door, they shot

    10 through the door. On that occasion, according to the

    11 mother of his wife, her grandson was wounded. Then he

    12 went to the phone to call up the command of the staff

    13 of the Territorial Defence, and he also called for an

    14 ambulance, and his wife went to open the door.

    15 However, the members of the Croatian Defence Council

    16 were still shooting through the door, and they wounded

    17 her in the stomach.

    18 After that they broke down the door. One of

    19 them walked up to my brother, who was making a phone

    20 call, and asked him, "Are you the one who writes for

    21 the newspapers?" And when my brother gave an

    22 affirmative answer, he shot him in the head from

    23 nearby.

    24 They did not allow for any medical assistance

    25 to be given to my sister-in-law. The mother of my

  83. 1 sister-in-law was standing at the door, and his three

    2 small children. The daughter, who was born in 1979,

    3 and twins, born in 1984, they watched all of this. One

    4 of the men from the group asked the leader of the group

    5 what they were supposed to do with the children, and

    6 this one said, "Let them be. Why, do they bother

    7 you?" Then they moved on to other apartments.

    8 That is what the mother of my sister-in-law

    9 stated. And my sister-in-law was a very good friend of

    10 Mr. Cerkez's. They worked together, unfortunately.

    11 They had coffee together several times, many times.

    12 Q. Perhaps, before we break for the lunch

    13 adjournment, the question or the observation, "Are you

    14 the one who writes to the newspapers," does that make

    15 any particular sense?

    16 A. Yes, because my brother had these twins.

    17 They were eight years old at the time. The members of

    18 the Croatian Defence Council would come to his cafe,

    19 and they stood in front of the window and they shot in

    20 the air. These were men who mobilised earlier. He was

    21 good at writing, and he wrote a letter, and he said

    22 that it would be better for them to show their heroism

    23 at Vlasic rather than frightening children in town.

    24 I doubt that this soldier knew what he had

    25 written. Somebody ordered him to kill him, because

  84. 1 their soldiers didn't have time to read, and this was

    2 published in a newspaper that was published on our

    3 side, not on their side, and it wasn't really readily

    4 accessible to each and every soldier. This question

    5 was probably put because they wanted to make sure

    6 whether that was the right person who was supposed to

    7 be killed, simply for identification purposes.

    8 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. The usual

    9 time.

    10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
















  85. 1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

    2 MR. NICE: Please, Your Honour, I've asked --

    3 sorry, I'm too early again. I've asked for the witness

    4 to be kept out, and I'm going to ask for the Court to

    5 go, shortly, into --

    6 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    7 MR. NICE: -- and I'm going to ask for the

    8 Court to go briefly into private session.

    9 Lawyers representing Mr. Kordic know exactly

    10 why. Those representing Mr. Cerkez know approximately

    11 why. There's no objection to that. It won't take very

    12 long. And you will be satisfied, I'm sure in due

    13 course, that it's for good reason.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

    15 (private session)




    19 Pages 1649 – 1654 redacted - in private session







  1. 1(redacted)













    14 (Open Session)

    15 (The witness entered court)

    16 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry that you have been

    17 detained, Mr. Zlotrg. We had to deal with some other

    18 matter. It's nothing at all to do with your evidence

    19 or with you.

    20 MR. NICE:

    21 Q. You've been dealing with the death of your

    22 brother, and you had spoken of the movement of the

    23 offenders elsewhere in the building, and on the

    24 information that you received, where else did those

    25 same offenders go, within that or any other building,

  2. 1 and what did they do?

    2 A. Before they reached my brother's apartment,

    3 they ill-treated, on the ground floor, the family of

    4 Armina Arnautovic. Her husband is a diabetic, and he

    5 could barely see. They fired over their heads. I

    6 think they locked them in the WC. I'm not sure.

    7 Then they came to my brother's door and his

    8 neighbour, Behajija Muslimovic, a former policeman,

    9 retired, and they robbed him. They looted his

    10 apartment. They took his money which he had, and also

    11 locked him, together with his family, in the WC.

    12 Then they climbed the floor above to the

    13 family of Dzemo. I cannot remember his last name.

    14 He's a Romany. He was also harassed. I know that that

    15 day or the next day, they took him out to shoot him,

    16 but meanwhile his brother-in-law arrived -- no -- yes,

    17 his brother-in-law, the brother of his sister, arrived

    18 and saved him from the firing squad.

    19 Q. The man Darko Kraljevic, did he have a

    20 position in -- a premises in Vitez that you could see

    21 from your window?

    22 A. Yes, the seat or the headquarters of Darko

    23 Kraljevic was in the Ben's coffee pub, and I could see

    24 it quite clearly from the balcony window in my flat.

    25 Q. Would you look at the map that's on the board

  3. 1 to your left, over there. Is that map in sufficient --

    2 I'm afraid you haven't had a chance to prepare yourself

    3 for this, because the map wasn't located; but is that

    4 map in sufficient detail for you to identify for the

    5 Court where you lived and where, for example, Darko

    6 Kraljevic's premises were?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 MR. NICE: We must give this map an exhibit

    9 number. I'm not sure that it's got one already. I'll

    10 check with Ms. Verhaag.

    11 2231,1.

    12 Q. Can you point out where you were -- first of

    13 all, orientate us: Which road leads to where on the

    14 map? Just explain the map for the Court, please.

    15 A. This is the road to Unis plant. This is a

    16 road through Vitez, this is the new part of Vitez, and

    17 this is the old part of Vitez.

    18 Q. When you've been --

    19 A. This is a roundabout to the highway.

    20 Q. Orientate us by reference to towns to which

    21 that road was going. Going up the map takes us to

    22 where?

    23 A. To Busovaca.

    24 Q. And down the map?

    25 A. Travnik.

  4. 1 Q. Thank you. Right. So point to your house

    2 again, and Kraljevic's house.

    3 Your house?

    4 A. The building that I lived in (indicating).

    5 Q. And Kraljevic?

    6 A. The command post of Darko Kraljevic's was

    7 here (indicating), in this building here.

    8 Q. Thank you very much. If you would like to

    9 take your seat again. From your window, what

    10 activities, if any, did you see going on at Kraljevic's

    11 command post?

    12 A. I saw groups of members of the Croatian

    13 National Defence, groups of two or three coming out of

    14 Ben's coffee shop. They approached a member of the

    15 Croatian Defence Council, Marko Mlakic, nicknamed

    16 Tasko, and they talked about something -- I don't know

    17 what; I could not hear that -- but for what I could

    18 see, they must have been asking about addresses of

    19 people they were either to kill or take under custody,

    20 because he was showing -- he was indicating with his

    21 hand the door or the window or the balcony of a person

    22 living there. In his hands he had, presumably, a list

    23 of residents and who lived where at what floor, and he

    24 also lived in that building.

    25 Q. And then what did you see the man Marko

  5. 1 Mlakic do?

    2 A. Directing those groups of people to

    3 individual addresses. That is, showing them, pointing

    4 at the addresses they inquired about.

    5 Q. Niko Krizanac, did you see him?

    6 A. Yes, he drove in an ambulance car. He came

    7 in front of Ben's coffee shop, and instead of the

    8 wounded, he loaded crates with ammunition into the

    9 ambulance car. He did it on several occasions at brief

    10 intervals.

    11 Q. Were you watching television while in your

    12 flat on this day?

    13 A. Yes, in my apartment and at my neighbour's,

    14 where I had taken my family.

    15 Q. What were the broadcasts that you saw?

    16 A. Those were mostly news and information for

    17 citizens of Croat ethnicity.

    18 Q. Anything in particular being put out that you

    19 can recall?

    20 A. Yes, it was an information which was repeated

    21 time and time again, all day, and roughly, any Croat

    22 who gives shelter, who hides Muslims, will be severely

    23 punished. I cannot really quote it, but that was the

    24 gist of it. Then I asked my neighbour if I could move

    25 my family from his house, and he said, "No need to."

  6. 1 Q. Your neighbour's ethnicity being ... ?

    2 A. Croat.

    3 Q. How long did your family stay in your

    4 neighbour's apartment?

    5 A. All I know, that it was until the 19th, when

    6 I was arrested, that they were there after that, but I

    7 don't know how long.

    8 Q. Until your arrest, what did you discover

    9 about the movements of other Muslim families in Vitez?

    10 A. No Muslim could move about the town freely.

    11 Those who did were escorted by the Croatian Defence

    12 Council and were taken to camps. We were not allowed

    13 to lock our doors, I mean, the doors of our flats, and

    14 after that, we were not even allowed to close the doors

    15 of our flats.

    16 Q. Were you learning of the arrest of other

    17 Muslims within this period of time, the 16th to the

    18 19th of April?

    19 A. Well, through my window, I saw them being

    20 taken away, and only when I was arrested did I realise

    21 where they had taken them, because I met most of them

    22 in a camp which was in the cellar of the Workers'

    23 University in Vitez.

    24 Q. Very well. Let's deal with the circumstances

    25 of your arrest. What time and on what day were you

  7. 1 first approached to be arrested?

    2 A. I think it was the 17th, in the morning of

    3 the 17th, when three policemen came, headed by Marko

    4 Rajkovic. With him there was also Bonic; I cannot

    5 remember what his first name was. They were my

    6 colleagues, people that I worked with.

    7 They asked me if I had any weapons, and I

    8 said that I didn't, and then they told me that I was a

    9 good man and therefore they would let me go on in the

    10 flat. But I would have rather that they had arrested

    11 me and taken me to the people, because then I would

    12 have more chances of surviving.

    13 Q. But you were left on that occasion, on the

    14 17th; what happened the next morning?

    15 A. Another group came.

    16 Q. Could you identify what unit they were

    17 members of?

    18 A. Members of Vitezovi, Knights.

    19 Q. What did they say and do?

    20 A. They were headed by the brother of a good

    21 friend of mine, a Croat, Franjic. I know they used to

    22 call him "Jesus." When he came to the door and saw me,

    23 he merely picked up the telephones that were in my flat

    24 and then left. He did not want to arrest me.

    25 Q. That would be the 18th, and that then brings

  8. 1 us to the 19th. Before we turn to your arrest, what

    2 was happening elsewhere that you were aware of on the

    3 19th, and particularly in Zenica?

    4 A. On the 18th, nothing happened. On the 19th,

    5 Zenica was shelled.

    6 Q. How did you learn of that?

    7 A. On TV.

    8 Q. Thank you. To deal with your arrest on the

    9 19th, who came to arrest you?

    10 A. First, two members of the Croatian Defence

    11 Council came. They came to arrest me. Whenever they

    12 would come, they would take me to the apartment, they

    13 would search the apartment and insult me. This man was

    14 really fair. He apologised to me for the fact that he

    15 was arresting me. He said that he had to arrest me. I

    16 couldn't remember him, but apparently I had helped him

    17 sometime before. I said that he could take me away

    18 with all the other people who were being taken into

    19 custody, because my assessment was that I could survive

    20 if he took me together with the others. So he did take

    21 me.

    22 However, on the second floor, my neighbours

    23 beseeched him to leave me at the apartment. One of my

    24 neighbours was his director, and he finally addressed

    25 his director, and he said that he was leaving me at my

  9. 1 apartment at his responsibility, and they left.

    2 Five minutes after that, as I was watching

    3 the news and the effects of the shelling of Zenica, my

    4 neighbour's son came to the apartment and said that HVO

    5 members were looking for me. When I went out on the

    6 staircase, I saw Radosa Drazenko standing there, a

    7 member of the civilian police. He worked in the

    8 police, in the communications department, while we were

    9 still a single police force. He had Vitezovi insignia

    10 on his shoulder, and he was escorted by another HVO

    11 member. He took me to my apartment, and they didn't

    12 let anyone follow us.

    13 He insulted me upstairs. He said, "How come

    14 you're not in Mahala? How come you're still alive?

    15 Aren't you shooting at us? May Alija fuck you,"

    16 et cetera.

    17 Q. Just pausing to explain to the Tribunal what

    18 he meant by Mahala --

    19 A. That is Old Vitez.

    20 Q. Thank you. Carry on. He'd cursed you; what

    21 did he then say?

    22 A. He insulted me and said, "How is it possible

    23 that you're still alive?" And I said, "Well, you can

    24 see that I am." Then he ordered that I get dressed.

    25 Before that, they searched the entire apartment. I

  10. 1 don't know if they took something or not; they kept me

    2 in one room while this other one went all over the

    3 apartment and did whatever he wanted to do.

    4 Then they took me into a kombi van which was

    5 parked in the parking lot, and when the kombi van was

    6 full of Muslims, then they took us to the premises of

    7 the Radnicki Univerzitet. They took us to the heating

    8 room there.

    9 Q. While he was in your flat, did he say

    10 anything to you about his intentions, and did he ask

    11 you anything about what you had done?

    12 A. No, he was just insulting me and cursing,

    13 saying, "Oh, you want to stay, do you," and insulting

    14 me that way. He didn't say anything about his

    15 intentions.

    16 Q. You went to the Workers' University, to

    17 the --

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. -- heating room. How long did you stay

    20 there?

    21 A. Perhaps seven or eight days.

    22 Q. Always in the heating room or somewhere else?

    23 A. The heating room was packed. Literally, we

    24 were one over the other. You couldn't even lie down.

    25 We sat next to one another for seven days, and then

  11. 1 they sent a group to the cinema hall. I was in that

    2 group. Another group was taken to the offices of the

    3 SDP party, the Party of Democratic Change, and that

    4 office was upstairs.

    5 Q. Can you give an estimate of how many people

    6 were detained in these premises overall?

    7 A. It must have been 300 to 400. I don't know

    8 for sure. It was dark downstairs. You couldn't see a

    9 thing. There was only one light bulb, or two, and we

    10 were packed, so it was difficult to tell.

    11 Q. What were you provided with, if anything, by

    12 way of food and drink?

    13 A. Once a day, a quarter of a loaf of bread and

    14 a tin.

    15 Q. What, if any, sanitation facilities were

    16 there?

    17 A. Yes, there was a toilet on the floor where

    18 the cinema hall is.

    19 Q. When did you leave that premises first, and

    20 where did you go?

    21 A. I went to the cinema hall, which was on the

    22 ground floor.

    23 Q. But after the cinema hall, when you left the

    24 building altogether, where did you go for the first

    25 time?

  12. 1 A. I went trench digging.

    2 Q. Who instructed you to do that?

    3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice?

    4 MR. NICE: Yes, of course.

    5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you leave the heating

    6 room, I would be interested to learn the dimensions of

    7 the heating room, particularly in relation to the

    8 number of persons who were crowded there.

    9 A. I really don't know the dimensions.

    10 MR. NICE:

    11 Q. Use this room as an example, if that will

    12 help you; either twice the size, half the size,

    13 whatever you like, of this room.

    14 A. Perhaps as big as this room, but it wasn't

    15 this nicely appointed.

    16 Q. Could you estimate how many people were in

    17 that room in particular? You've dealt with all the

    18 rooms comprehensively, but how many in that room in

    19 particular?

    20 A. All of us were in that room, and then later,

    21 because it was so full, we were sent to these two

    22 different rooms. But part of the people who were there

    23 remained in the heating room.

    24 I really don't know because I came there

    25 after I had found out that my brother and my

  13. 1 sister-in-law were dead, so I really can't give you any

    2 accurate figures as to the number of people that were

    3 there.

    4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice,

    5 please.

    6 MR. NICE:

    7 Q. Trench digging: Who made you, told you, or

    8 asked you to go trench digging?

    9 A. In the evening we went to bed, and Zlatko

    10 Nakic, a military policeman, came to my bed, and he

    11 kicked me. I got up, and he simply said, "Get ready."

    12 He told me to wait for him in the hallway. Only when I

    13 got out did I realise that they were making lists for

    14 trench digging.

    15 Q. How many of you went trench digging that

    16 night?

    17 A. Well, there were between seven and ten of

    18 us. We came from different camps: From the cinema,

    19 from the SDK, and from the elementary school.

    20 Q. In what vehicle did you travel?

    21 A. A kombi van.

    22 Q. Where did you go?

    23 A. They took us to the Bungalow, in front of the

    24 Bungalow, where the headquarters of the military police

    25 was. Later on I realised that this was the first

  14. 1 company, and I knew that my former colleague, Vladimir

    2 Santic, was in command there, that he commanded that

    3 unit.

    4 Q. The Bungalow is in what area or near to what

    5 town or village?

    6 A. Near Nadioci. This is the area of the town

    7 of Vitez but in the direction of Busovaca.

    8 Q. So you were taken first to the Bungalow, and

    9 what, if anything of significance, did you hear there?

    10 A. I only heard my colleague laughing and

    11 talking. I didn't hear anything. I only recognised

    12 his voice.

    13 Q. Yes. Well, can the witness now see Exhibit

    14 Z1926, please, which is a document that the witness has

    15 marked on an earlier occasion? Put the marking at the

    16 top, I think. That's right.

    17 The area of the Bungalow may or may not be

    18 shown on this. Can you have a look at it? Is it shown

    19 on this map, the area of the Bungalow? We see

    20 Busovaca. As you take the pointer, point out roughly

    21 where the Bungalow was.

    22 A. The Bungalow should be approximately over

    23 here (indicating) below Rovna, on the Zenica-Vitez road

    24 just below Rovna. This is Rovna, so the Bungalow

    25 should be on this road (indicating).

  15. 1 Q. And while waiting there or while you were

    2 there, did something happen?

    3 A. The Bungalow, you mean?

    4 Q. Yes, at the Bungalow. Was there some

    5 gunfire?

    6 A. While we were there, waiting for the

    7 policemen to give us the schedule where we would be

    8 digging trenches, a bullet flew through the air. And

    9 then the guard who was in front of the Bungalow cocked

    10 his rifle, and he said, "If I hear another bullet, I'm

    11 going to kill all of you."

    12 Q. In the event, you went to dig trenches at

    13 about what time?

    14 A. No, no, no, no. We were not taken to dig

    15 trenches then. We were taken to the prison or, rather,

    16 the camp of Kaonik, to a hangar that was above the

    17 prison.

    18 Q. And what time did you arrive there?

    19 A. It was sometime in the morning. Around 2.00

    20 or 3.00, perhaps.

    21 Q. The prison, and Kaonik in general, we can see

    22 on this -- well, we can see Kaonik on this plan. Would

    23 you just point it out for the Judges, please?

    24 A. The Kaonik prison should be somewhere in this

    25 region (indicating).

  16. 1 Q. In fact, you can see the writing just above

    2 that, above where the pointer is at the moment, and to

    3 the southwest of Strane. It's just there. I hope it's

    4 visible.

    5 A. Yes, yes.

    6 Q. When you got to the prison or to Kaonik, what

    7 happened to you on arrival?

    8 A. They did not take us to the prison, they took

    9 us to the hangar, where we found some 40 to 50

    10 civilians who were detained there from all of Bosnia

    11 and Herzegovina. These were people who were simply

    12 taken from their vehicles. I had found people there

    13 who went to work in Novi Travnik, and then as they

    14 reached the curve on the road, they were stopped and

    15 taken from their vehicles to that prison.

    16 Q. Have a look, please, at the next exhibit, and

    17 we will come back to this exhibit in a moment, but the

    18 next exhibit, Z1862. It's an aerial view of Kaonik.

    19 Now, I think something has gone wrong. Those

    20 markings, are those markings you recognise or are those

    21 markings of someone else?

    22 A. I did make some markings, but I don't know

    23 whether this is it. I'll try to explain it to you

    24 now.

    25 First I was brought to this hangar marked by

  17. 1 the letter "I." "B" is the prison, the military police

    2 prison of the Croatian Defence Council. And the letter

    3 "F" shows the building where the intervention unit of

    4 the Croatian Defence Council was. Before that, I think

    5 it was the headquarters of the former army.

    6 Q. So having gone to the hangar, what were you

    7 told was in store for you, if anything?

    8 A. They didn't tell us a thing. They simply

    9 threw us into the hangar and locked the door. We

    10 didn't even know where we were brought to. Only when

    11 we talked to the other prisoners did we realise that we

    12 were at Kaonik.

    13 Q. Was there any question of your being

    14 registered in any formal way on arrival at this place?

    15 A. Yes. These men who brought us gave a list

    16 with our names on it to the guard who was there.

    17 Q. Did you discover whether the Red Cross had

    18 been making visits to this place, and if so, what had

    19 been happening on their visits?

    20 A. As far as I know, they didn't visit them

    21 before we went to the prison again and before we told

    22 the Red Cross people that there were people in the

    23 hangar as well. That is perhaps 15 days afterwards.

    24 Q. On your way to Kaonik on this occasion, had

    25 you passed the areas of Nadioci and Ahmici?

  18. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. At the time that you passed them, had you

    3 been able to see what state they were in?

    4 A. No, because we were in a kombi van that was

    5 closed, and it was night-time. The road goes through

    6 there, so we had to go through Nadioci and Ahmici, that

    7 I knew.

    8 Q. Did you, on the next or some subsequent day,

    9 however, have an opportunity to see Ahmici?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Was it the following day?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. How many days later?

    14 A. Two days later.

    15 Q. We better deal with the intervening day,

    16 then, first, if we can.

    17 On that next day, did anything in particular

    18 happen that you can recall in your treatment?

    19 A. Nothing, except that the members of the

    20 military police came again and took us back to the

    21 Bungalow.

    22 Q. And when they took you to the Bungalow, was

    23 this in daylight?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Were you able to see out of the vehicle that

  19. 1 you went in?

    2 A. Not then, because it was closed.

    3 Q. What happened at the Bungalow?

    4 A. From there, they sent us to Kratine to dig

    5 trenches.

    6 Q. If we come back to Exhibit 1926, put that on

    7 the ELMO, please. Is this a map you have marked on a

    8 previous occasion, showing where you were taken to dig

    9 trenches?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And that's the area marked at the top?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Who was in charge of the trench digging?

    14 A. The commander of that sector was Miroslav

    15 Bralo, nicknamed Cicko, and he ordered where we would

    16 dig and what.

    17 Q. I would like you now, please, to tell the

    18 Court about the trench digging, starting with the time

    19 at which you had to dig trenches and what happened and

    20 what risks there were for yourself.

    21 A. When we came to the region of Kratine, Cicko

    22 lined us up and called our names out. When I came up,

    23 he said that he knew me from somewhere and that he

    24 would remember. And then he asked a man, whose last

    25 name was Ahmic -- his father's name is Suljo, I can't

  20. 1 remember his name -- to teach us how to cross

    2 ourselves. He said that we were not Muslims, that we

    3 were Croats, and that we had no place to pray because

    4 they had torched and raised to the ground all mosques.

    5 He also said that he was competing with some

    6 Croat, whose nickname was Svabo from Busovaca, who

    7 would kill more Muslims, and I think that he then

    8 mentioned the figure of 80 Muslims, men, women,

    9 children, old people, and that he was currently

    10 leading. Then he left, and he left Ahmic to train us,

    11 so to speak, in which order and how to cross

    12 ourselves.

    13 When he came back about two hours later, we

    14 all crossed ourselves nicely, except for a Romany, who

    15 had changed the word order, and then he made him cross

    16 himself properly once again. But the young man always

    17 made a mistake at one particular point. Then Cicko

    18 turned around, went seven or eight metres away, and

    19 took an axe out of a stump, a tree stump. Then he went

    20 back, and he turned the blunt side of the axe towards

    21 this man's head and said, "If you make a mistake now,

    22 I'm going to kill you." However, the young boy did it

    23 right, and he made him repeat it about 20 times so that

    24 he wouldn't make a mistake. Fortunately, he managed to

    25 cross himself properly.

  21. 1 After that, we went to dig trenches.

    2 However, we were facing the army, and the members of

    3 the army saw everything we did, and those who were

    4 guarding us were sheltered. So on one occasion, they

    5 were shooting across us, but nobody was hurt.

    6 Q. When you said -- so sorry. When you said the

    7 army could see you, you mean the army against whom you

    8 were defending, the Croats, could see you?

    9 A. Yes, the members of the army of the Republic

    10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    11 Q. And so therefore they were able to see that

    12 you were Muslims or recognise you; is that the

    13 position?

    14 A. They most probably assumed that we were the

    15 ones who were digging trenches for them, because they

    16 had already received information that the HVO was using

    17 Muslim prisoners to dig trenches. But they couldn't

    18 see it for themselves, because it doesn't say anywhere

    19 that we are Muslims.

    20 Q. You say that the guards were hidden while you

    21 were digging trenches. How were they able to hide and

    22 save themselves from any attack by the army?

    23 A. We were digging trenches on the slope, and on

    24 the other side at Kuber were the members of the army.

    25 Since they were below the slope, they couldn't see

  22. 1 us -- see them, naturally, but they could see us,

    2 because we were up on the slope and we were digging

    3 their trenches and making bunkers for them.

    4 Q. How long did this exercise of trench digging

    5 go on?

    6 A. That day, the entire night, and all of the

    7 next day.

    8 Q. Were you fed?

    9 A. Once a day.

    10 Q. What were you fed?

    11 A. A quarter of a loaf of bread and half a tin.

    12 Q. Did somebody get sick in the course of the

    13 night?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. What happened?

    16 A. We were down, waiting for the new schedule

    17 for the trench digging, where Cicko was, and one of the

    18 members of the Croatian Defence Council called down to

    19 Cicko and told him that one man had got sick. He

    20 asked, "Who was it? Was it a balija?" And the guard

    21 said, "Yes." Then he said, "Well, slit his throat so

    22 that he doesn't suffer." But they did not slit his

    23 throat, and four colleagues, who were digging trenches

    24 with us, took him to the hospital in Busovaca.

    25 Q. They took him to the hospital in Busovaca.

  23. 1 How were you able to -- or how were your colleagues

    2 able to be free enough to take the man to hospital in

    3 Busovaca?

    4 A. Well, naturally they were escorted by the

    5 Croatian Defence Council, but Croats refused to carry

    6 him and Muslims had to carry him. A car, a vehicle,

    7 could not come up to the area of Kratine.

    8 Q. How many men, altogether, were digging

    9 trenches in this area, so far as you could judge?

    10 A. We found up there a group that had been

    11 digging before us. They stayed with us. I believe

    12 there were about 15 of us, but I'm not sure.

    13 Q. Was there an incident involving three men

    14 that you can tell us about, three civilians?

    15 A. Yes. We were having a lunch break, some 100

    16 metres away from Cicko's command post, and they brought

    17 three civilians. They were brought running to Cicko.

    18 We were too far. I could not see clearly, but later on

    19 the young man who was standing guard over us that night

    20 told us that Cicko tied their hands behind their backs,

    21 undressed them, and then, I think, threw some corn, or

    22 some grain, anyway, and forced them to pick it up. And

    23 they were picking it up with their lips, with their

    24 mouths, with their teeth. After they did, they were

    25 taken away somewhere.

  24. 1 This young man said that he had taken them to

    2 a swamp which was there nearby, and he must have slit

    3 their throats, because we did not hear the sound of a

    4 shot being fired. Whatever the case, we never saw them

    5 again.

    6 Later on, I heard they were people of Serb

    7 ethnicity from the village of Loncari.

    8 Q. The man with whom Cicko said he was competing

    9 to kill the largest number of Muslims, do you know the

    10 full and proper name of that person or not?

    11 A. His nickname was Svabo, and he is a member of

    12 the Croatian Defence Council from Busovaca. I did know

    13 his name, but now I really can't remember it.

    14 Q. After this trench digging, where were you

    15 taken?

    16 A. Back to the Bungalow and then back to the

    17 cinema hall.

    18 Q. Did you, by now, have a chance to see Ahmici

    19 and Nadioci by daylight?

    20 A. Not that day, when they took me to Kratine to

    21 dig, because we returned by night. But when we went up

    22 to Kratine, it was daylight, so I could see

    23 everything. I saw houses burnt down, presumably

    24 Muslim. And amongst all these sinders, there were some

    25 houses completely unscathed. I mean they were simply

  25. 1 whole, in one piece, and nothing seemed wrong with

    2 them, and those were Croat houses. These were only

    3 Muslim houses, and I also saw the mosque demolished.

    4 Q. Having been taken back from trench digging,

    5 what happened to you?

    6 A. When we arrived in the hall, those who did

    7 not go digging told us that representatives of the

    8 International Red Cross had been there that day and

    9 took down -- took notes of all their names, and then

    10 the next day they would be coming to then make a list

    11 of all our names of our group.

    12 Q. Did they return the following day, the Red

    13 Cross?

    14 A. Yes, and that is when I was put on record and

    15 was issued a Red Cross card.

    16 Q. During trench digging of which you were

    17 aware, were there any deaths?

    18 A. When I returned to the cinema hall, I heard

    19 that a couple of young men who had been going to dig

    20 trenches died. Also, when I was in the hangar in

    21 Busovaca, those whom I found there said that it never

    22 happened that a group would go out and come back

    23 without somebody having been wounded or killed. That

    24 is where I also heard about my relative, Mehmed Sivro,

    25 called Majo. That is, I heard that nobody knew his

  26. 1 whereabouts and that he had died, in all probability,

    2 because he had not come back from trench digging. When

    3 I came out, that is when I was exchanged, then I did

    4 meet him in Zenica, and he was alive.

    5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I'm looking at the

    6 clock. Have you got very much more?

    7 MR. NICE: No. I think I should finish this

    8 afternoon.

    9 JUDGE MAY: It would be good if we could

    10 start on the cross-examination.

    11 MR. NICE: Yes, but there's more to be done.

    12 Q. So you had been taken from Vitez to

    13 Busovaca. You had then been taken trench digging.

    14 You've now been returned to Vitez.

    15 How long did you stay detained at Vitez?

    16 A. I stayed in Vitez until May the 2nd or the

    17 3rd in the cinema hall, and then with 13 chosen persons

    18 more, I was moved to the chess club, which was in that

    19 building where my brother lived. I mean my brother

    20 whom they had killed.

    21 Q. How long did you stay there?

    22 A. We stayed there only a couple of days.

    23 Q. What were the conditions like?

    24 A. They threw us into a dirt room, windowless.

    25 Everything was broken down. There was a guard in front

  27. 1 of the door, that is, an HVO policeman, a local person

    2 from Vitez. We cleaned it up, and we -- no sooner did

    3 we clean it up, then we were taken away to Busovaca, so

    4 that we spent only a couple of days there.

    5 Q. Any food?

    6 A. No. Our families sent us food.

    7 Q. What was the agreement that led to your

    8 eventual release?

    9 A. I was released twice. I do not know which

    10 instance do you mean. I was released on the 30th of

    11 April, and I was exchanged on the 16th of May.

    12 Q. We'll deal with the 30th of April release and

    13 your rearrest.

    14 A. On the 30th of April, Sefer Halilovic and

    15 General Petkovic signed a ceasefire, saying that all of

    16 the detained would be released. That is, Sefer

    17 Halilovic came to tell us that at the cinema hall,

    18 telling us that we could go wherever we liked.

    19 We got ready, but then members of the

    20 military police turned us back and then again spread my

    21 things, thinking that I would, yes, be enjoying there

    22 bed and board for some time, but then Zeljko Sajevic

    23 came after an hour and called out my name, and I went

    24 to the Dita room. That was a restaurant that we called

    25 Dita, and it was part of the cinema. Boro Jozic was

  28. 1 there, and I signed that I'd left the camp sound and

    2 alive and that I was going home.

    3 However, the next day, on the 1st of May,

    4 Anto Kovac, nicknamed Zabac, arrived, together with

    5 another policeman of the HVO. They came to my door,

    6 and because I knew him, I asked him if I should take a

    7 blanket or something, and he said, "No, there's no need

    8 to," and that's what he told my family, that I'd be

    9 right back. He simply threw me out into the cinema

    10 hall and left me there, and I was asked to give no

    11 statement or anything.

    12 Q. When you got --

    13 A. And then --

    14 Q. So sorry. Carry on.

    15 A. And subsequently a former friend of mine, a

    16 Croat, Anto Valenta's nephew, told me that Blaskic had

    17 ordered to take me back to prison. Since his uncle was

    18 a high-ranking member of the HDZ, perhaps that was

    19 indeed so, but I do not know it.

    20 Q. When you got to the cinema, was there a

    21 process of being checked in according to some

    22 notebooks?

    23 A. When I arrived at the cinema, there must have

    24 been 30 or 40 of us in the cinema hall. Then Anto

    25 Kovac entered, and Jurcevic -- I can't remember his

  29. 1 first name; he was nicknamed "Butur." One of them had

    2 a red agenda, another one had a blue one, and they sat

    3 at the opposite side of a desk and made us move into

    4 the rear part of the cinema hall, and we had to

    5 approach the desk one by one to give them our

    6 particulars, even though they knew us. They knew all

    7 about us.

    8 Then -- well, depending; for instance, I was

    9 registered in the red agenda; some others were

    10 registered in the blue agenda. But then all of us who

    11 were in the red agenda were singled out from that group

    12 and taken to the chess club.

    13 Q. And from the chess club, were you ever

    14 obliged to go and do trench digging?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Do you know what happened to those who were

    17 not taken to the chess club and who were entered

    18 according to the different book?

    19 A. They stayed behind. We sent them the list of

    20 13 of us to the cinema, and when they were releasing

    21 all for all, then this commission which was attending

    22 the release of prisoners from the cinema was told then

    23 that the 13 of us were missing. Well, I did not know

    24 that at the time, of course, but I only knew that they

    25 turned up at noon, and very hastily, and that was not

  30. 1 their custom. They usually transported us in the early

    2 hours of the morning when everybody was asleep, but

    3 that day, around 5.00, they put us all onto a delivery

    4 van, the closed van, and took us towards Busovaca, to

    5 Kaonik. I learned subsequently that some five or ten

    6 minutes later a UN transporter had arrived in front

    7 of the chess club and they were inquiring about us, but

    8 they could not find us.

    9 Q. At Kaonik, were you entered into the hangar,

    10 or the prison, or what?

    11 A. Prison.

    12 Q. Did anybody identify himself as the commander

    13 of Kaonik?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Who was that?

    16 A. Subsequently, when they were put up in cells,

    17 Zlatko Aleksovski came and inquired after me, and that

    18 is when he introduced himself.

    19 Q. Would you look, please, at Exhibit 1864.

    20 What does that show?

    21 A. The right part of the prison, as you enter

    22 the building, the prison.

    23 Q. This room, or area, what was it used for?

    24 A. That is where we had lunch. It is a table

    25 and chairs, and every cell had its lunch separately.

  31. 1 We never had lunch together. Letter "A" indicates our

    2 cell, and there were 13 of us in one cell.

    3 Q. How big was the cell containing 13 of you?

    4 A. Well, I should say four times 3,60 metres.

    5 Q. Was it possible for you to all lie down for

    6 sleeping at the same time, or not?

    7 A. No. Three of us slept on the concrete floor,

    8 that is, we spread our blankets and we slept on the

    9 floor, on the concrete floor, and above us were those

    10 who had some cots on which they slept.

    11 Q. While you were in Kaonik on this occasion, or

    12 at this time, were you obliged to go and do trench

    13 digging at all?

    14 A. No. We did not. But we could hear how every

    15 morning they would call out other prisoners to go to

    16 dig trenches.

    17 Q. While you were at Kaonik, did you see any

    18 mistreatment of individuals?

    19 A. No, but we could hear people being beaten and

    20 people crying out. We were in a windowless cell.

    21 Q. How regularly did you hear people crying out?

    22 A. There was no rule about that, but one could

    23 hear it day in, day out.

    24 Q. Food in the prison: What food did you get?

    25 A. I was 96 kilogrammes before, and I came out

  32. 1 with 63 kilogrammes. I believe that is a

    2 telling-enough answer.

    3 Q. What facilities for sanitation?

    4 A. Yes, there was a WC, but at the opposite end

    5 from this table where we had lunch. That is, down in

    6 the bottom, in the rear part of the prison.

    7 Q. Your release from Kaonik occurred by what

    8 process and on what days?

    9 A. We were released from Kaonik on the 14th of

    10 May and taken back to the cinema hall in Vitez.

    11 Q. And from the cinema hall, were you exchanged?

    12 A. Yes. Yes.

    13 Q. What was the process of exchange? Do you

    14 know?

    15 A. As far as I know, and the first information

    16 that we received was that after the release from

    17 Kaonik, we would go back home to our families to decide

    18 whether we would stay in the town or should we be

    19 moving to the free territory. That is, what free

    20 territory was for us. However, when we arrived in

    21 Vitez, we were told that it was because of our safety

    22 that we would remain locked there until the 16th of

    23 May, when we were to be exchanged.

    24 Q. Yes. When you were released, did

    25 Aleksovski -- or when you were moved from Kaonik and

  33. 1 then exchanged -- did Aleksovski say anything to you?

    2 MR. STEIN: I object.

    3 JUDGE MAY: Why?

    4 MR. STEIN: On the grounds that this is a

    5 witness, obviously, someone who we cannot speak with

    6 because he indeed is an indicate in the nature of a

    7 co-conspirator, if you will, and we have no ability to

    8 test, through interviewing or investigation, the

    9 truthfulness of this alleged exchange.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Does anything turn on this?

    11 MR. NICE: Yes, indeed, it certainly does

    12 turn on it, and it's a highly material observation made

    13 by Aleksovski indicating -- it might be in one way

    14 favourably, but indicating something about who

    15 instructed the movement and release of prisoners.

    16 It's highly important, and there is

    17 absolutely no reason to exclude it. It falls within

    18 the same category of material that the witness has been

    19 dealing with throughout his testimony, and it would be,

    20 in our respectful submission, quite wrong to exclude

    21 it.

    22 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    23 JUDGE MAY: Well, the objection is taken that

    24 this is hearsay evidence involving a statement given by

    25 a man who is also on trial at this Tribunal, and

  34. 1 therefore, as I understand the argument, the Defence

    2 submit that they would not be able to call this man to

    3 rebut any statement which it's alleged he made.

    4 We have considered this. We are going to

    5 admit the evidence. We bear in mind the point that is

    6 made, although in fact it would be possible, were

    7 Mr. Aleksovski willing to give evidence in this

    8 Chamber, to call him. Of course, he may not be willing

    9 to do so.

    10 But we think that the objection goes to the

    11 weight of the evidence, and we bear in mind the point

    12 made by the Defence. On the other hand, we are told

    13 that it's of probative value, and we will accept that,

    14 and we shall admit the evidence.

    15 MR. NICE: Thank you.

    16 Q. The question that I asked, Mr. Zlotrg, was

    17 whether Aleksovski said anything to you at the time

    18 that you were moved from Kaonik, preparatory to your

    19 exchange, about the circumstances of your being

    20 released.

    21 A. Yes. First, when we were released, we had to

    22 sign in some three or four places that we were getting

    23 out, that we were safe and alive after the prison, and

    24 when we boarded the van, a military policeman pulled

    25 out his gun and said nothing would come out of this

  35. 1 exchange because the Armija allegedly had not met some

    2 conditions and that we would be taken back to the

    3 prison.

    4 After about an hour, we were set free again.

    5 This time we did not sign anything because they already

    6 had our signatures. Mr. Aleksovski said that we should

    7 thank Kordic for being released because he had

    8 reportedly pleaded our cause and asked that we be

    9 allowed to go to Vitez. That was the gist of what

    10 Aleksovski said.

    11 Q. I want now to deal with Mario Cerkez in

    12 particular. Had you known him before 1991?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. In what setting and how well?

    15 A. He was a worker at the Slobodan Princip Seljo

    16 factory, and he worked on information. He did more or

    17 less the same job afterwards at the police station.

    18 Q. How did you know him? Was he a friend, an

    19 acquaintance, just somebody you recognised on the

    20 street? What was the position?

    21 A. Vitez is a small town. We know each other

    22 well. I know his father better, because when I was a

    23 car mechanic, I maintained his vehicle. His mother

    24 worked at the department store. She worked as a

    25 cashier.

  36. 1 Q. So did you in fact have any direct contact

    2 with Cerkez on a friendly basis before the difficulties

    3 that you've been telling us about?

    4 A. We would say hello to one another, not more

    5 than that. We were not friends, but we were not

    6 enemies either.

    7 Q. In the course of 1991, 1992, and into 1993,

    8 what office did Mario Cerkez hold?

    9 A. I know that he was a member of the joint

    10 staff in Novi Travnik. As far as I know, that was a

    11 brigade that consisted of the Croat people from Vitez

    12 and Novi Travnik. As far as I know, he was deputy

    13 commander.

    14 Q. Deputy to whom?

    15 A. I don't know. I think the commander was from

    16 Novi Travnik. I really don't know. Their headquarters

    17 was in Novi Travnik, at the hotel there.

    18 Q. Over that period of time, over those years,

    19 what, if anything, did you see of Cerkez around the

    20 town?

    21 A. Most probably I did. I can't remember. I

    22 saw him in '91 -- I saw him in '92 for sure.

    23 Q. Were you aware of any change in his role

    24 coming up to the spring of 1993?

    25 A. '92 or '93?

  37. 1 Q. Well, if there was a change in '92, tell us

    2 about it, but I was really asking about '93. What

    3 changes in his role were you aware of, if any?

    4 A. In 1992, I think that on NDH day, he was

    5 appointed commander of the staff of the HVO in Vitez.

    6 I don't know exactly which post this was, because the

    7 brigade was established only in the summer, when there

    8 was this ceremonial review, as far as I know.

    9 Q. After that, were you aware of any other

    10 change in his role or job?

    11 A. When the war broke out, he was commander of

    12 the Vitez Brigade of the Croatian Defence Council.

    13 Actually, his zone of responsibility was Vitez and the

    14 rural areas around Vitez, as far as I know.

    15 Q. Did he visit you or speak to you, amongst

    16 others, on any occasion when you were detained?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. When and where?

    19 A. In the cinema hall of the Workers' Education

    20 Centre. I think that this was on the 15th or 16th of

    21 May, 1993.

    22 Q. What were the circumstances of his visit?

    23 What was the general purpose of his visit?

    24 A. He was an emissary of the Croatian

    25 authorities in the HVO about the possibility of the

  38. 1 coexistence of the Croats and the Muslims, and he would

    2 guarantee all the rights that we were entitled to.

    3 However, when I asked him, if he was offering us all

    4 these fine guarantees, why didn't he release me on the

    5 14th, why didn't he let me go to join my family if no

    6 one would touch me from there, and I could then go and

    7 talk to my family and see whether we would remain in

    8 town or whether we would leave, and why was he keeping

    9 me there? And that he said for my own safety.

    10 Then I said to him, "What kind of safety are

    11 you providing me with, when I was among others on the

    12 list of persons to be killed?" And then he said to me,

    13 "If you were on that list, you would not be alive

    14 now." It was something to that effect. I cannot quote

    15 it verbatim because it was a long time ago.

    16 I thanked him, and I went to the back of the

    17 cinema hall, and he got up and he left the meeting

    18 immediately. That was it.

    19 Q. Your question about a list, was that

    20 something that was spontaneous, or was that something

    21 planned by you?

    22 A. Spontaneous. I could not plan anything

    23 because I didn't know that he would come. He simply

    24 walked in. He assembled us who were detained in there,

    25 and he started persuading us.

  39. 1 Q. I asked the question badly. When you, in

    2 your question, made reference to a list or lists, was

    3 that something that you did just spontaneously or did

    4 you think about that and ask the question for a reason?

    5 A. I knew -- or, rather, I assumed that there

    6 was a list. However, I was convinced of this when I

    7 saw Marko sending people to various addresses, because

    8 these men who came with the exact name and surname

    9 of the person they were looking for, and Marko took

    10 them to the entrance and showed them, and that means

    11 that there were lists.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Nice, it's 5 past 4.

    13 Clearly we are anxious to finish this witness, if at

    14 all possible, tomorrow. Have you got very much more?

    15 MR. NICE: I have effectively concluded. I

    16 would be grateful just to make sure there is no tidying

    17 up tomorrow morning. A couple of questions and that

    18 will be it.

    19 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Cross-examination in

    20 the morning. As I've said, if we can finish the

    21 witness tomorrow, so much the better.

    22 Mr. Zlotrg, could you be back, please, 9.45

    23 tomorrow morning.

    24 THE WITNESS: Whenever it suits you.

    25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

  40. 1 4.05 p.m., to be reconvened

    2 on Thursday, the 29th day of March,

    3 1999, at 9.45 a.m.