1 Monday, 14th June, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.15 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario
7 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.
8 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry we've been delayed.
9 What we'll do is sit for an hour and then take a break,
10 and then sit for another hour until 12.30.
12 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, I'm fully aware
13 of the little time available to us, but I should like
14 to say something. It won't take more than five
15 minutes. However, I should like to raise a matter
16 which I believe is very important for the Defence and
17 for the trial as such, so may I have five minutes
18 before we proceed to the examination of the witness?
19 JUDGE MAY: Is it a matter which should be
20 dealt with now, or can it be dealt with at the end of
21 the day?
22 MR. MIKULICIC: Mr. President, I think this
23 will affect the testimony we shall hear today, so the
24 Defence should like to clarify this matter before the
25 witness continues.
1 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
2 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you.
3 Very briefly, Mr. President, Your Honours, we
4 have now come across innovative techniques which the
5 Prosecution has introduced in order the expedite the
6 trial; by this I mean the summaries of witnesses'
7 evidence which are distributed and which are then the
8 basis for the examination of witnesses by the
9 Prosecution. The Defence did not object to this
10 novelty, to begin with, because the Defence should also
11 like to see the proceedings expedited; and secondly, we
12 did not want to oppose an experiment, an innovation,
13 before we saw how it worked in practice. Today's
14 witness, Mr. Munib Kajmovic, is, however, an example to
15 which the Defence has a number of objections, and we
16 should like to present them now.
17 To begin with, the Defence is bound to note
18 that this innovative method is acceptable when the
19 Defence is given the summary at least one day,
20 24 hours, before the witness is examined, rather than
21 read before the witness begins to be examined. And
22 again, it would be quite acceptable, provided an
23 important condition were met, and that is that the
24 allegations in the summary as to the facts deriving
25 from earlier statements of the witness are presented
1 correctly and accurately, and this is something that I
2 wish to address on this occasion.
3 To make it easier for you to understand what
4 I want to say, the Defence has drawn up a small table
5 in order to show how the allegation in the summary
6 distributed by the Prosecution simply does not agree
7 with the facts that this allegation refers to, based on
8 earlier statements of this witness.
9 Will the usher please help me to distribute
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could it also be placed on
12 the ELMO, please, for the sake of the interpreters?
13 MR. MIKULICIC: The Prosecutor refers to
14 earlier statements of Witness Munib Kajmovic which he
15 allegedly made on the 13th of July '95,
16 27 February '97, and testimony in the Blaskic case on
17 the 10th of January, 1998. The Defence has tried to
18 find those statements in order to verify the
19 allegations; however, Mr. Kajmovic has never made a
20 statement on the 27th of February, nor did he testify
21 in the Blaskic case on the 10th of January.
22 The differences may not be big, but I assure
23 you, Your Honours, that we spent a great deal of time
24 going through the records of this case. However, what
25 we believe is more important is on the second page of
1 our document. In the left table there are found
2 allegations from the Prosecutor's summary, and to the
3 right is the statement to which a reference is made.
4 By definition, they should be identical; however, it is
5 not, and there are significant discrepancies.
6 The summary says that the witness said that
7 our client, Mr. Cerkez, was a military commander of the
8 Vitez Brigade, and he was known as the chief commander
9 of the HVO in Vitez; then, that nobody doubted that he
10 was, in fact, in control of all military formations and
11 special purpose units. Below this quotation indicated
12 in paragraph 18 on page 3, it refers to the witness's
13 statement of the 27th of February,'98, on page 2, in
14 the witness's statement of the 27th of January, since
15 there is nothing -- since the 27th February -- the
16 statement of 27 February is non-existent, the witness
17 said, "I know that Mario Cerkez was a commander or some
18 commander of the HVO in Vitez and that Filip Filipovic
19 was above Mario Cerkez."
20 So these are two quite different, quite
21 discrepant statements indicated in the Prosecutor's
22 summary and in the statement of the witness.
23 On the third page we have two more examples
24 of this kind, in which one thing is said, reference is
25 made to allegations, and yet in the statements and
1 testimonies, it is completely different.
2 If we look at number 3 in the summary
3 which -- yes, I'm sorry.
4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mikulicic, we can read the
5 examples that you gave. But these are summaries; they are
6 no more than that. They're not evidence, and they can
7 be no more than what the Prosecutor thinks that the
8 witness is going to say, or dealing with those bits
9 which the Prosecutor thinks is relevant. The evidence,
10 of course, is what the witness gives from the witness
11 stand, and were he to give the evidence which you say
12 is wrongly described in the summary, then, of course,
13 it would be open to you to cross-examine on the actual
14 statements to show that the evidence was wrong. It can
15 be no more than a guideline as to what the Prosecutor
16 wants the witness to deal with, out of what may be a
17 very considerable amount of evidence; at least, that is
18 as I understand it.
19 Given for the moment that these examples are
20 right, what are you asking us to do about it?
21 MR. MIKULICIC: Mr. President, I agree with
22 what you said, and of course I fully respect that. But
23 with all due respect, unless we insist on the duty of
24 the Prosecutor to present fully accurate data, then we
25 are not saving any time because the proceedings will
1 again then be extended, and I see then no purpose for
2 the summaries.
3 So yes, the Defence is for this manner of
4 evidence, but only if these summaries are correct and
5 that I go by the facts that are referred to.
6 Otherwise, I really see no use of this. Moreover, the
7 Defence believes that in a certain way, that the facts
8 might be manipulated in this manner, and this is
9 something that we really do not want to see.
10 Yes, I fully know that you are all
11 professional Judges and that you will be judging the
12 facts in a manner in which you do that, as
13 professionals; but nonetheless, the Defence would be
14 much happier if these inaccurate documents were never
15 submitted to you for your examination.
16 So yes, we are for summaries, but only if
17 certain control is exercised over the accuracy of the
18 summaries, and only then, if [unintelligible] will we
19 be able to expedite the trial. Otherwise, we shall
20 again have the facts that we will have to argue and
21 which will force us to conduct further investigation.
22 That is what I wanted to say, and of course,
23 the decision is up to you. Thank you.
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation)
25 Mr. Mikulicic, I believe that the Chamber has already
1 noted that this manner of examination by the
2 Prosecution, in chief, and this manner of organising
3 the examination, on the basis of questions which derive
4 from previous statements, has allowed us to gain some
5 time, and I believe the Defence has also admitted that
6 it has allowed us to gain some time to keep better
7 control over the hearing and to ensure a fair and
8 expeditious trial.
9 Now, if you are asking us that this basis --
10 I'm not talking about the summary; we're talking that
11 the examination-in-chief is made on the basis of
12 statements, and of course, yes, your request that the
13 summaries be given you more in advance is fully
14 legitimate. At the very beginning, we have already
15 asked Mr. Nice -- we have told him that 24 hours in
16 advance would be quite important, and that is quite
18 But as for the rest, you can intervene in
19 different matters either at the moment when the
20 question is asked, to correct the quotation, and that
21 is what you said today, 27th of February. Mistakes can
22 be found anywhere; one can find them in your
23 documents. But you also have the cross-examination,
24 and so far you have used it very much so that you can
25 effectively show that there is a contradiction between
1 the previous statement and a question or answer asked
2 during the examination-in-chief.
3 I believe that with all these precautions
4 taken note of, I think we are quite satisfied now that
5 now, owing to the cooperation between the Prosecution
6 and the Defence on the basis of this method, we have
7 improved the conduct of the trial, which is very
8 important for us, as you know, and we believe that we
9 have also managed to speed things a bit on the part of
10 the Prosecution and on the part of the Defence.
11 I think we can proceed in this manner, of
12 course with all necessary improvements which may be
14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mikulicic, I'm sure the
15 Prosecution have heard the criticisms which you make of
16 this document. We have decided to proceed with these
17 summaries, as Judge Bennouna has said, because it's a
18 very helpful way of getting at the essence of what the
19 witness is going to say, and it helps to concentrate
20 the minds of the Prosecution on what they want the
21 witness to deal with.
22 You should clearly have the summaries in good
23 time, and of course they should be as accurate as
24 possible, but they are not evidence themselves and can
25 never be. As I said, it's what the witness says in the
1 witness stand which is evidence. With that in mind,
2 we'll go on.
3 Yes, Mr. Nice, would you like to call the
5 MR. NICE: Incidentally, just to satisfy my
6 friends, the statement they referred to is a statement
7 of the -- there's a month error in the citation of the
8 date of that statement. They had only to pick up the
9 phone, as there's normally people here on the weekends
10 and in the evenings, and we would have told them, as we
11 always do if they ask us a question.
12 Yes. Can the witness come back?
13 Can I just add this as well while the witness
14 is coming in? Twenty-four hours is desirable, but it's
15 not always possible. As you know, we have a rolling
16 programme of witnesses coming in, and our aim is to
17 keep them here as little as possible before they give
18 evidence. That means they are spoken to and, in the
19 terminology of this place, proofed wherever possible
20 the day before they give evidence. It's only when they
21 are proofed that the documents can be prepared, and of
22 course it's in proofing that sometimes additional
23 material comes up.
24 I give documents as early as I can. Indeed,
25 I've handed to my friends this morning, in respect of
1 the next witness, a document that's incomplete and yet
2 to be finalised because it was only prepared
3 yesterday. But I'll do my best.
4 (The witness entered court)
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you would like to take a
6 seat, Mr. Kajmovic.
7 MR. NICE: For the Court and my friends, we
8 are back at paragraph 16, having left off halfway
9 through paragraph 22.
10 WITNESS: MUNIB KAJMOVIC (Resumed)
11 Examined by Mr. Nice:
12 [Witness answers through interpreter]
13 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, were you present at a ceremony
14 in Vitez in the summer of 1992?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where?
17 A. It was a parade of HVO soldiers when they
18 took the oath of allegiance, and we were officially
19 invited by the HVO military structure to attend this
20 ceremony, the oath-taking ceremony.
21 Q. Where did it happen?
22 A. It happened at the town stadium in Vitez.
23 Q. Who spoke at the ceremony?
24 A. There were several speakers from the military
25 ranks who delivered particular speeches, saying nothing
1 particular with regard to the deterioration of
2 relations. But towards the end of the ceremony,
3 Mr. Dario Kordic arrived, and he also delivered a
5 Q. Tell us, please, what he said.
6 A. Sometime towards the end of the ceremony or,
7 rather, this review, and as far as I can remember, it
8 was about five or six minutes before the end of it,
9 before the end of the ceremony when Mr. Dario Kordic
10 arrived, and he asked to be given the microphone
11 because he wanted to address those present.
12 He delivered the speech, and to our surprise
13 his speech was very sharp. That is, he was delivering
14 a message to Izetbegovic, telling him to finally notify
15 the Muslims in Central Bosnia that this was Croat land,
16 that they had to accept that this was Herceg-Bosna or
17 else anything might happen. That was the gist of it.
18 Q. When he said "anything else might happen,"
19 can you be any more particular about what he said might
21 A. What he meant was that unless a political
22 solution was found --
23 MR. SAYERS: [Inaudible] the witness's
24 conclusion from the words of Mr. Kordic, I think he
25 should talk about facts, what he heard, but I don't
1 think he should be permitted to express his opinions
2 regarding conclusions that he reached from what he
3 heard. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MAY: What did Mr. Kordic say might
6 A. It is difficult for me. Now it's 1999, and
7 that happened in 1992, and it's difficult for me to
8 quote verbatim Mr. Dario Kordic. Naturally, I mean too
9 much time has passed.
10 But the gist of this whole speech was a
11 threat to the Muslims in the Lasva Valley, that they
12 had to accept the parastate product of Herceg-Bosna,
13 whether they liked it or not.
14 It was characteristic in his speech that he
15 was addressing Alija Izetbegovic, that he should send a
16 message to the Bosniaks in the Lasva Valley to accept
17 that. That is, apart from addressing the Bosniaks who
18 were sitting at home around the stadium and watching
19 it, he was also addressing President Izetbegovic to
20 meet his request.
21 JUDGE MAY: That's far enough, Mr. Kajmovic.
22 What you were asked is not to comment on the evidence
23 but just tell us, if you would, what happened. Yes.
24 MR. NICE:
25 Q. What affect did that speech have on you and,
1 so far as you could judge it, any other Muslims who you
2 knew had heard it?
3 A. During that oath-taking ceremony, all people
4 who spoke -- how shall I put it? There was certain
5 views expressed that we did not like, but we were not
6 particularly concerned or indignant about those
7 speeches. But when Dario Kordic made that speech, we
8 were all -- rather there were only a few of us present
9 there, and we were shocked by that speech.
10 After that speech, we were invited to the
11 club premises next to the stadium itself and there was
12 a cocktail party of sorts, and when we came there,
13 Dario Kordic came to me and greeted me and said,
14 roughly, "Well, how are you, Professor?" But we did
15 not stay there long, but we were very shocked indeed.
16 We could not recover after that speech. I
17 had not had an opportunity of hearing such a harsh
18 speech until that time.
19 Q. Paragraph 17. If necessary, can you help
20 anybody who wants to know about the detail of damage to
21 Muslim properties that occurred after the time you've
22 just spoken about? Just "Yes" or "No", can you deal
23 with damage to Muslim properties, if asked?
24 A. That damage, yes, yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 A. Yes, there was considerable damage.
2 Q. We've had it from elsewhere. Paragraph 18.
3 A. Yes, there was major damage.
4 Q. At this time between the summer or autumn of
5 1982 (sic) and the spring of 1983 (sic), what was Mario
6 Cerkez's position?
7 A. As far as I know, he was the local commander,
8 that is, commander at the municipal level of the
9 brigade of theirs which existed at the time. I
10 wouldn't know any details about that, any particulars
11 about that. I remember them better by the ultimatums
12 they put to us, that the local troops should be placed
13 under the command of the HVO. That is, these kind of
14 particulars I can say something, but otherwise I
15 couldn't tell you much about Mario Cerkez.
16 Q. We'll come to a particular matter of that
17 sort a little later. But just in general, you say that
18 he was the commander of a brigade. Does that brigade
19 have a name or not?
20 A. I think it was called the Vitez Brigade.
21 Q. Was there anyone in Vitez known to you to be
22 superior to him in a military capacity?
23 A. Filip Filipovic was for a while, and then
24 after Blaskic arrived, I believe that Blaskic was his
1 Q. Were you aware of special-purpose units in
2 the area; "Yes" or "No"?
3 A. We knew that there were several of those
4 units. But their role, their task, I wouldn't know,
5 and I'm not particularly conversant with the military
6 organisation, but we knew there were several such units
7 for various tasks.
8 Q. [Indiscernible] or any of them?
9 A. Well, I know that some were called Jokers,
10 others were Vitezovi Knights, but I really don't know
11 much about that.
12 Q. Could you help us with the 19th of October of
13 1992? Was there an incident or meeting then that you
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where and who was present?
17 A. On the 18th of October, '92, I think the HVO
18 attacked Novi Travnik, and to my knowledge, the command
19 of our brigade, that is, the command of the army of BH
20 in Vitez, was issued orders by Commander Hadzihasanovic
21 to put up a roadblock in the neighbourhood community of
22 Ahmici and another one in the neighbourhood community
23 of Grbavica in order to prevent the passage of the HVO
24 troops from Kiseljak and Fojnica in the direction of
25 Novi Sad.
1 This order was complied with, and in the
2 evening the headquarters of the BH army in Vitez were
3 visited by Mr. Ivica Santic, mayor, and Mario Cerkez,
4 and they asked us -- I was present in the room. They
5 requested that the roadblock be removed.
6 Q. Before we move on, is this the 18th or the
7 19th, or can't you remember?
8 A. I think it was in the night between the 19th
9 and 20th of October, although it could also have been
10 between the 18th and the 19th. But I think it was the
11 19th to the 20th.
12 Q. Very well. This was in the BH headquarters.
13 Where were those headquarters?
14 A. Yes. The headquarters were in the building
15 of the secondary school in Vitez.
16 Q. What was said between them and you?
17 A. Since Ivica Santic came and said that he was
18 responsible, that he was requesting the staff to remove
19 the roadblocks in Ahmici and Grbavica, and they were
20 told this would be done straightaway if the HVO attack
21 against the army in Novi Travnik stopped and if they
22 stopped sending units from Kiseljak, from Fojnica and
24 Santic then said that he could not do that,
25 that he did not have the power, the authority, to take
1 such a decision and that such a decision could be taken
2 only by Dario Kordic.
3 We then said that we could not remove those
4 roadblocks but that we should also like to talk to
5 Dario Kordic so as to find a solution to put an end to
6 conflicts. Ivica Santic said to that that we could
7 call him by telephone, if we wanted to, and that his
8 task was only to request the removal of the
10 He gave us the telephone number, and Faud
11 Kaknjo called Novi Travnik, that is, Kordic, and got
12 him indeed, and we were sitting around the table. At
13 first -- Kordic did not answer the phone at first, but
14 we could hear quite well his raised voice and
15 invective. I think he was cursing God. He was
16 requesting from somebody in the room in which he was to
17 attack the Armija in Novi Travnik with all the means
18 available until they surrendered, and then at some
19 point he took up the telephone receiver and said no
20 negotiations would take place until the Armija
21 surrendered, and any proposals to that effect were
22 simply no go. That was the end of that conversation.
23 An hour or two after Ivica Santic and Cerkez
24 left, a shell was fired against that room, and
25 fortunately it hit the wall above the window, about a
1 metre above the window, so that we escaped unscathed
2 that night. But the headquarters had to leave that
3 building because the HVO had attacked, and all the
4 people had to withdraw.
5 Q. One detail. So far as the phone conversation
6 was concerned, who from your side was going to be
7 speaking directly into the mouthpiece of the telephone?
8 A. Faud Kaknjo.
9 Q. Indeed, when appropriate, who was holding the
10 handset of the telephone?
11 A. Faud Kaknjo was holding the handset.
12 Q. Were you nevertheless in a position to hear
13 what you've described to the Court?
14 A. Yes. I sat right next to him, and we were
15 listening very carefully. We sort of leaned in towards
16 Faud Kaknjo so we would be able to follow the
17 conversation, and I was able to here it. I believe
18 some other people were also able to hear it.
19 Q. The second part of paragraph 22.
20 Between the latter half of 1992 and the
21 spring of 1993, were there any moderate Croats, or
22 Croats who you judged to be moderate, who found
23 themselves in positions of leadership or holding
24 office, and if so, what happened to them?
25 A. One could give some examples where some more
1 moderate people were involved, but at the top positions
2 on the local level, you could not say that there were
3 any moderates. Perhaps at lower levels, there were
4 some, but I believe that even if such people existed, I
5 think that they were not able to manifest that because
6 they were afraid of being sanctioned by the leadership
7 of the HVO. Perhaps Ivan Budimir would be an example
8 of that kind, and later on he was killed by them.
9 Q. Did you see Dario Kordic at any time between
10 the oath-taking ceremony in the summer and the spring
11 of '93, and if so, how was he dressed and how was he
13 A. I did not see him, for the most part, except
14 I saw him on television several times, and the
15 television was broadcasting press conferences out of
16 Busovaca. He wore a uniform and he was addressed as
17 "Colonel". That is the rank that he had been accorded
18 then. And also he often had a rosary with a cross
19 which he held.
20 Q. Paragraph 23 we've I think substantially
21 dealt with. 24, towards the end of 1992, or
22 thereabouts, were you aware of soldiers present in
23 Vitez who were not local to Vitez?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Tell us about them, in just a sentence or so.
1 A. This was a group of soldiers, perhaps about
2 ten men, who were billeted in a house across the street
3 from my own. They were Ivo Pocanja had a coffee bar
4 called Patria, and that's where they were staying.
5 Sometimes they would leave this house in uniforms,
6 sometimes in civilian clothes.
7 Q. And what could you tell about their origins?
8 Where did they come from?
9 A. I did not know these men because I had never
10 seen them before in the territory of the municipality.
11 One day I was passing by that house, and one of them
12 stopped me and asked to exchange some money. He was
13 looking to exchange some money, to exchange it into
14 foreign currency. From his accent, I could see that
15 they were people either from eastern Herzegovina or
16 from Croatia.
17 Q. Can I now deal with an incident in January
18 1993 involving Mario Cerkez. Was there an incident
19 there that you can recall and tell us about, please?
20 A. Yes. On several occasions the HVO and HDZ
21 structures -- that is, the local HVO government -- sent
22 us ultimatums; in other words, they demanded that the
23 BH army be placed under the control of the HVO. Among
24 these people was also Mario Cerkez.
25 So those were the only contacts which I had
1 with Mario Cerkez. On several occasions they asked
2 that we accept their command, and of course they gave
3 us ultimatums; at first not openly, but later on they
4 were open. I believe that one such ultimatum was given
5 in January 1993, when Mario Cerkez expressly told us
6 that if we did not accept this command by noon the next
7 day, that shelling would start; that is, that the HVO
8 would carry out an attack.
9 Of course, we could not accept this, because
10 this would mean a direct attack on the state of Bosnia
11 and Herzegovina. It was counter to all the laws of the
13 Q. Can you break your narrative to tell us
14 this: Was it explained where the shelling would take
16 A. These ultimatums did not specify what
17 locations would be attacked, but we were told that if
18 we did not accept it -- in other words, one of the
19 ultimatums was, if you don't accept this by 12.00 noon
20 tomorrow, we would start an attack.
21 So these were the forms of pressure that they
23 Q. You didn't accept this ultimatum. In the
24 event, was there any shelling?
25 A. No, there was no shelling. Specifically on
1 that ultimatum, we had even accepted it, because
2 militarily we were not organised enough in order to
3 counter the HVO, and with respect to one of these
4 ultimatums, formally we took a position to accept it.
5 But on that day, when 12.00 noon came, Mario Cerkez did
6 not make a phone call, and the situation just remained
7 tense, and they did not do anything.
8 Q. At that stage, what part of Vitez were you
9 living in?
10 A. I lived in the new part of Vitez, but we held
11 our meetings in the old part of Vitez. That is where
12 the headquarters were after we had been driven out of
13 the school centre, the secondary school centre, in
14 October '92.
15 Q. And the old part of Vitez, Stari Vitez, what
16 was the majority population there?
17 A. The majority was the Bosniaks.
18 Q. What approximate percentage occupation, by
19 one ethnic group and another, was there in Stari Vitez
20 leading up to the spring of 1993?
21 A. There were about 1.200 to 1.400 inhabitants
22 in Stari Vitez. Out of them, 200, 250 were Croats, and
23 the rest were Bosniaks.
24 Q. 15th of April, 1993, please: Did you meet
25 Mario Cerkez?
1 A. Briefly, at the fire station in Stari Vitez.
2 A ceremony was held there that was to celebrate BH Army
3 Day. That day is taken as the day of establishment of
4 the BH army. Mario Cerkez came to this ceremony. He
5 did not stay long because an incident had taken
6 place -- I don't know the details, but there was a gas
7 station, and he and some members of the BH army went
8 there to try to solve the problem, so that I saw him
9 that day in the fire station in Vitez.
10 Q. What passed between you?
11 A. He had been invited to this ceremony. We sat
12 around the table, and meanwhile, as I said, this
13 incident took place, so that essentially nothing
14 important happened in the fire station that day, except
15 that they were negotiating with the military structures
16 to normalise the relations, and that the next day --
17 that is, on 16 April -- a match should take place
18 between the BH army and the HVO members.
19 Q. What sort of a match?
20 A. A soccer match.
21 Q. Thank you. What time of the day, if you can
22 recall, was this encounter, this meeting with Cerkez?
23 A. As far as I recall, this was sometime in the
24 afternoon. Perhaps 3.00 in the afternoon; sometime
25 around that time, even though I am not sure. But it
1 was on that day, because on that day there was the
2 ceremony which he attended briefly.
3 Q. On the 15th of April -- just "Yes" or "No" to
4 this -- was there a press conference by Kordic of which
5 you subsequently became aware? Just "Yes" or "No."
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How soon after the press conference
8 apparently occurred did you learn of it? Same day,
9 subsequent day?
10 A. I learned of it as early as that evening,
11 around 9.00, 9.00 p.m., from people with whom I had
12 contact, because I was asked whether I had seen this
13 press conference and what I thought about it. Then, of
14 course, later on, during the military conflict, this
15 conference was discussed at quite some length.
16 Q. What was your understanding of what was said
17 in the conference?
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes?
19 MR. SAYERS: I have to object on the grounds
20 of unreliable hearsay at -- who knows how many hands,
21 Your Honour? This witness didn't see the press
22 conference, so all he is trying to do is to relate what
23 other people, who may or my not have seen the press
24 conference, heard about it and concluded from it. I
25 think, under Rule 89(B) and (C), that sort of evidence
1 is unduly prejudicial and has virtually no probative
2 value and therefore should be excluded. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, perhaps you can
4 establish at what hand he heard about the conference.
5 MR. NICE:
6 Q. First of all, was it one person or more than
7 one person who told you about the conference?
8 A. Regarding this conference, personally, to
9 date, to date, among us who were in some positions
10 there, we are still --
11 Q. It will help, Mr. Kajmovic, if you just
12 answer the quite specific questions I ask, at least at
13 the moment.
14 On the day itself, was it from one person or
15 more than one person that you heard about the
17 A. From several persons, and they all believed
18 that this was a speech that was going to --
19 Q. I'm going to stop you again. Did you
20 understand that one of those people or more than one of
21 those people had heard the conference on the television
22 or radio themselves?
23 A. Yes, several people.
24 Q. Can you give an idea of how many people
25 speaking to you had apparently heard the conference
1 themselves? One, two, however many.
2 A. Several. Several people. I don't know the
3 number, but several people told me about it. Not right
4 away, but over a longer period of time.
5 Q. But I'm just concerned now with the same
6 day. On that day, when you learnt about it, whoever
7 told you about it, how long before they told you about
8 it had it apparently happened? In terms of minutes,
9 hours, or whatever.
10 A. I heard about it sometime around 9.00 p.m. on
11 15 April, '93.
12 Q. And apparently it had happened at what time
13 in the day itself?
14 A. The conference was sometime in the afternoon
15 on 15 April, in Busovaca; but as far as I heard, this
16 conference was broadcast twice on local television. I
17 think it was once around 5.00 p.m. and again around
18 7.00 p.m.
19 Q. Were the accounts that you heard, from people
20 who had apparently seen or heard the conference, were
21 they consistent one with another, or were they at odds
22 one with another?
23 A. They related approximately the same thing,
24 that this was a declaration of war and that there will
25 be an attack.
1 Q. That's all I asked.
2 MR. SAYERS: Very briefly, Your Honour, we
3 have no objection to any videotape of this alleged TV
4 conference or any transcript of the alleged radio
5 programme. Apparently it was broadcast several times.
6 If there's such a transcript, then obviously that's the
7 best evidence of what was said. But this sort of
8 anecdotal information, derived from an variety of
9 unidentified people over an apparently substantial
10 period of time, is absolutely the essence of something
11 that is untrustworthy and unreliable, and for that
12 reason we object to it. Thank you.
13 (Trial Chamber confers)
14 JUDGE MAY: We shall admit this evidence.
15 The reports which the witness heard were heard on the
16 very same day as the conference was given, and
17 therefore, to that extent, are likely to be more
19 MR. NICE:
20 Q. Tell us, please, what you were told, by those
21 who heard the press conference, of its content.
22 A. If I can only just make one comment, please:
23 Kordic's speech on 15 April was confirmed in 5.30 a.m.
24 on 16 April, and everybody --
25 JUDGE MAY: Now, look, Mr. Kajmovic, we will
1 all get on more quickly if you would just answer the
2 questions. What was it that you heard was said at the
3 press conference? Could you please concentrate on
5 A. I did not hear the speech given at the press
6 conference, but people warned me, they levelled
7 criticism against me: Why did we not prepare against
8 the HVO attack when it was clear that it was going to
9 happen following Kordic's speech?
10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we are not going to get
11 on --
12 MR. NICE: It's problems with -- perhaps
13 cultures. Can I try once more?
14 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, it will help, I'm sure, if you
15 listen to the questions and just answer the question.
16 Now, what were you told as to the content of
17 the press conference? That is to say, what were you
18 told Kordic had said in the press conference? That's
19 all we want to hear.
20 A. It said that war was practically inevitable,
21 and so everybody was in fear of what was going to
22 happen that night. They did not say -- I was not told
23 that Kordic had openly and directly said that this was
24 going to take place, but everybody concluded from this
25 speech that this is what was going to follow -- whether
1 the next day or two days, but soon.
2 Q. Let me stop you again. From what you were
3 told, which you say was broadly consistent one account
4 with other, can you help the Judges at all with the
5 words or the things that Kordic was said, by those
6 people listening to the broadcast, to have said? If
7 you can't help us with any particular words or any
8 particular things that he said, we'll move on; but if
9 you can help, then please do so.
10 A. I do not recall these details, but people
11 called us and criticised us because we were people who
12 were supposed to produce these judgements --
13 Q. I understand that. If you can't recall the
14 words, I'm going to move on. We may come back to that
15 topic later, but not for the time being.
16 The first you knew of any attack by any party
17 was at what time and on what day?
18 A. You mean when the attack took place?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. I was asleep in Stari Vitez, and about 4.30 I
21 was awakened by the shells which were falling on Stari
23 Q. I'm now going to deal with the attack on
24 Stari Vitez in absolute summary, and I don't want you
25 to trouble yourself with detail, because it's been
1 dealt with by other witnesses and may be dealt with by
2 other witnesses to come, so we don't need to deal with
3 things repeatedly, but just answer these questions with
4 one or two words, if that's appropriate.
5 How long did the attack on Stari Vitez last?
6 A. The attack started on 16 April, around 5.30,
7 about half past 5.00, and it basically ended
8 25 February, 1994, when the cease-fire took effect.
9 Q. Within that long period of time, were there
10 major offensives as opposed to continuing lesser
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Included in those mayor incidents, was there
14 the truck-bomb attack?
15 A. Yes, this took place on the third day of the
16 attack; that is, on 18 April, 1993.
17 Q. Was there a further attack in July?
18 MR. NICE: For the assistance of my friends,
19 the statement of the 27th of February, page 3 --
20 January, page 3.
21 A. Yes, there was major attack on 18 July '93;
22 there was another one in late January '94.
23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice,
24 there's an error in the date, on the transcript. Maybe
25 it comes from the witness. He mentioned the 25th of
1 February, that the attack started on 16 April, half
2 past 5.00, and it basically ended -- that means -- no,
3 perhaps it's not a mistake. It means the attack ended
4 on 25th February, 1994, the year after?
5 MR. NICE: Exactly, yes.
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: Okay. Thank you.
7 MR. NICE:
8 Q. The one detail only from the 18th of July '93
9 attack -- and again, single-word answers will help the
10 Court most -- at that time, was Stari Vitez being
11 defended by yourself and others or by various people on
12 the Muslim side? Just "Yes" or "No."
13 A. Yes, Bosnian side, yes.
14 Q. In the course of that attack, did the Bosniak
15 side lose any soldiers, or none?
16 A. There were no killed, just some wounded.
17 Q. Did the HVO lose soldiers?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were some of their soldiers left lying in
20 territory that was under Muslim control?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were the bodies of those soldiers searched?
23 A. Yes, with the assistance of UNPROFOR.
24 Q. And was paper found on one body, one soldier
25 in particular, identifying where he had come from?
1 A. I received such information from the
2 headquarters, that among the killed soldiers was a
3 Croat soldier.
4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, now, what is the
5 point here?
6 MR. SAYERS: I just would like a point of
7 clarification, Your Honour, as to whether this is his
8 personal knowledge or whether he is reciting something
9 that he learned from other people.
10 JUDGE MAY: No doubt that can be established.
11 MR. NICE:
12 Q. I think you've told us -- the information
13 about the identification of the soldier came from
15 A. I received it from a staff member, the army
16 staff members, Nenad. It was their information, and
17 based on his personal identification papers, they saw
18 that he had come from Croatia.
19 Q. Pausing there, the man Nenad, to your
20 knowledge, had he been the person to see the
21 identification papers himself, or not, or don't you
23 A. I'm not sure that I know what document you're
24 referring to. Are you referring to the personal ID
25 documents? I don't know what the soldier's name was,
1 but Nihad Rebikic is the name of the BH army staff, and
2 he told me that he saw the documents of this killed
3 soldier and that he was from Croatia. I don't know
4 whether his name was Nenad or something else.
5 Q. Forget Nenad; it was my mistake.
6 I see the time. I recall what the Chamber
7 said about the break it was going to take, but I'm
8 entirely in your hands.
9 JUDGE MAY: How much longer are you going to
11 MR. NICE: By the time I deal with it and an
12 objection that I know is coming up, another ten
13 minutes, I should think, at least.
14 JUDGE MAY: We'll take the break now. A
15 quarter of an hour.
16 --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.38 a.m.
18 MR. NICE:
19 Q. To complete the history of Stari Vitez and
20 the attacks on it, you've made reference to a third
21 major attack. When was that?
22 A. The first major attack was the beginning,
23 that is, the 16th of April. The second --
24 Q. I'm going to cut you short. Please listen to
25 the questions. The Chamber already knows about the
1 first and the second attack. When was the third
3 A. The third attack took place on the 22nd, in
4 the evening, the 23rd, in the evening, and the 24th, in
5 the evening. The 22nd, the 23rd, and the 24th of
6 February, 1994.
7 Q. The nature of this attack, was it an attack
8 by shells?
9 A. These were attacks that went on throughout
10 the night with shells and an attempt at an infantry
12 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I would object to
13 this question. I think that this question is clearly
14 out of the time which is indicted.
15 JUDGE MAY: I can't see that it does any harm
16 at all. Go on.
17 MR. NICE: I've asked all I wanted to ask
18 about it, save only for this:
19 Q. In the course of the overall fighting or
20 attacks at and on Stari Vitez or from it, were any
21 people from Stari Vitez taken prisoner by the HVO or
23 A. During the attack, if you mean during the
24 attack --
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. No, not then.
2 Q. Were soldiers killed in the course of the
3 attack; "Yes" or "No"?
4 A. On the side of the BH army, there were
5 wounded, and possibly some people may have been killed,
6 but I don't know the details. As for the HVO side, I
7 don't know.
8 Q. Paragraph 30, and I hope that my friends
9 won't object if I put to the witness, to save time, the
10 appointments he had. Just please listen to this,
11 Mr. Kajmovic:
12 Did you spend the entire time of this
13 conflict in Stari Vitez, apart, I think, from a couple
14 of occasions when you left with UNPROFOR or some other
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Were you appointed commander of the civilian
18 police, were you in charge of food distribution and
19 burial of the dead?
20 A. Yes. I was commander of the civil defence
21 staff, not the police, whose task it was to distribute
22 food, some of the food we had in reserve, and to bury
23 the dead and killed. That was the primary role and
24 task of the civil defence staff.
25 Q. Following the conflict in -- at the end of
1 the conflict in February, 1994, did you go to live in
2 Zenica, where you are still working, you being unable
3 to return to Vitez?
4 A. Yes. Three months later, I left Stari
5 Vitez. I am living in Zenica to this day.
6 Q. Two other paragraphs I want to return to, one
7 as I promised last week. But first paragraph 28. I
8 want you, please, to answer these questions strictly
9 "Yes" or "No" or by single words where that is
11 Did you learn of Kordic's whereabouts on the
12 day of the 16th of April; "Yes" or "No"?
13 MR. SAYERS: Once again, Your Honour, I
14 object to this, and I'm specifically referring to
15 page 6 of the first statement that Mr. Kajmovic gave on
16 the 13th of July, 1995.
17 The basis of this information is quite
18 explicitly a rumour, and that's the word that's used in
19 this statement, and that kind of testimony should not
20 be admissible for the same reasons I have previously
21 articulated under Rule 89(B) and C. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, perhaps you can
23 establish, with some care, the basis of this evidence,
24 and particularly if it's as a result of a rumour.
25 MR. NICE: Certainly.
1 Q. So, first of all, just "Yes" or "No". Did
2 you discover his whereabouts or, to be precise, his
3 apparent whereabouts, just "Yes" or "No"?
4 A. I did receive information that it was in the
5 post office in Vitez --
6 Q. Stop there, please. Please, will you listen
7 carefully to the instructions? When you're asked to
8 answer "Yes" or "No", please just answer "Yes" or "No",
9 Mr. Kajmovic. I know it's difficult.
10 Just give the name or other identity. From
11 whom did you learn this information?
12 A. I cannot remember now, but I did receive such
14 Q. Was it from one person or more than one
16 A. More than one, several persons, though I
17 didn't see it and I cannot assert it.
18 Q. Was it on the day itself or on a subsequent
19 day or days, and if subsequently, how long after?
20 A. Roughly, I think it was a month and a half to
21 two months when, on a couple of occasions, I left Stari
23 MR. NICE: No further. Paragraph 14,
24 please. Sorry.
25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice, go on.
1 MR. NICE: I thought Judge Robinson wanted
2 to -- no.
3 Q. Paragraph 14 is the paragraph I said that we
4 would return to last week, if necessary. I've reviewed
5 the cross-examination, and I think it would probably be
6 helpful to touch on it lightly.
7 I want to take you back in time,
8 Mr. Kajmovic, to the spring of 1992 and to the Bratstvo
9 factory. You told us you were able to deal with an
10 incident there. Were you present yourself at the
11 Bratstvo factory at the incident in the spring of 1992?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you see the defendant Dario Kordic there?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How was he dressed?
16 A. In HVO uniform, a camouflage uniform.
17 Q. By whom or was he accompanied?
18 A. In front of the factory, there were about 100
19 HVO soldiers.
20 Q. What did Kordic do or say in your presence
21 that concerned the factory and its contents?
22 A. In view of the fact that the problem could
23 not be resolved inside the factory, a meeting was
24 scheduled in the municipality building of Novi
25 Travnik. A meeting was held with representatives of
1 the Bosniak and Croatian side, both military and
2 civilian, and he insisted that he be given two multiple
3 rocket launchers.
4 Q. Was anything said about payment for the
5 rocket launchers?
6 A. Yes. At the meeting itself, the director of
7 Bratstvo, I think his name was Krizanovic, said that
8 this could not be taken just like that and that
9 somebody had to pay for them. Then he said, "I would
10 sign and the executive board of the municipal assembly
11 of Busovaca would pay for those multiple rocket
13 Q. For clarity, who said he would sign?
14 A. Kordic said that he would sign. I think that
15 he actually signed a piece of paper.
16 MR. NICE: Thank you. I turn now briefly to
17 one exhibit. To put to the end the matter that I know
18 is subject of objection, can I put in a collection of
19 photographs of Vitez? We can deal with them very
20 briefly, but they will then be available for other
21 evidence where photographs are helpful, if that
22 happens. So can this Exhibit 2207 be provided to the
23 Court and to the witness?
24 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, have you seen this album of
25 photographs yourself before?
1 A. These are photographs of the Rijeka community
2 centre in Vitez or, more specifically, the Rijeka
3 neighbourhood community which was an HVO camp for a few
5 Q. I'm going to go through them very quickly,
6 and I just want you to confirm that the index is
7 accurate in case we use the photographs on future
8 occasions, bearing in mind, as I was informed by the
9 interpreters last week, that when I did it too quickly
10 in relation to another document, I made a mistake.
11 So if we just turn over quickly, 2 is the
12 Vitez police station; yes?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. 3, the post office?
15 A. Post office in Vitez, yes.
16 Q. 4, the police station?
17 A. That is the police station.
18 Q. 5, the public accounts office?
19 A. Yes, known as the SDK in Vitez.
20 Q. Thank you. 6, the post office?
21 A. The post office in Vitez, yes.
22 Q. 7, a department store?
23 A. Yes, the department store in Vitez.
24 Q. 8, 9 and 10, Hotel Vitez?
25 A. Yes, the Hotel Vitez.
1 Q. Do you know whose headquarters were contained
3 A. Blaskic's headquarters.
4 Q. 11 and 12, the Workers' University?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. 13, part of Hotel Vitez?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. 14, the elementary school?
9 A. Yes, in Vitez.
10 Q. 15 through to 19, the Workers' University?
11 A. Yes, yes, the Workers' University.
12 Q. 20, Hotel Vitez?
13 A. Just a moment, please. Yes, this is the
14 Hotel Vitez.
15 Q. 21, the music school?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. 22, Hotel Vitez?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. 23, the municipality house, but I think you
20 would say that these signs were put up after the
22 A. Yes, the entrance to the house.
23 Q. And you say the signs here were put up
24 after --
25 A. Yes, after.
1 Q. 24, the entrance to the municipality house?
2 A. Yes, the entrance to the building.
3 Q. 25, music school, police station?
4 A. No. No, no. This photograph is the
5 municipality building of Vitez, and to the left, you
6 can see a little bit of the music school.
7 Q. Thank you. 26, the music school?
8 A. The music school, yes.
9 Q. And 27?
10 A. Yes, the same building.
11 Q. 28, the hotel again; 29 --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- the municipality building again, and 30,
14 the hotel?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. We then come to the next topic. Very
17 briefly, you told us that you conducted for your thesis
18 a population study; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. As part of that study, did you research
21 available material on the census of Vitez both before
22 and after the conflict?
23 A. Yes. I carried out research, and I came to
24 certain conclusions.
25 Q. Did you plot the information from available
1 census material both on maps and in charts?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. NICE: I understand there's an objection
4 to the product of this work being laid before you, so
5 I'll let the objection be made.
6 MR. SAYERS: With respect to the photographs,
7 Your Honour, there is no objection. I had previously
8 informed Mr. Nice that we objected to the proffer
9 that's contained in paragraph 31 of this document, the
10 outline of Mr. Kajmovic's testimony.
11 The objection is a very simple one:
12 Essentially, the Prosecutor is seeking to elicit from
13 this witness expert testimony. In Blaskic, there was
14 no requirement, I believe, in the Rules of Procedure,
15 as they existed at that time, for the provision of
16 expert witnesses' reports. Mr. Kajmovic was actually
17 identified as and permitted to testify as an expert in
18 the Blaskic case, an expert demographer and
19 statistician and so forth, over the objection of the
21 I believe that that was in the days before
22 Rule 94 bis. Rule 94 bis states that any expert
23 witness report has got to be provided to the Defence as
24 soon as possible, but it shall be filed with the Trial
25 Chamber not less than 21 days before the date on which
1 the expert is expected to testify. Then another Rule
2 comes into effect that puts the onus on the Defence to
3 notify the Trial Chamber, within 14 days of the filing
4 of such a report, whether it accepts the expert
5 testimony or whether it intends to cross-examine the
7 This gentleman is actually not qualified as
8 an expert witness. He is not impartial, for all of the
9 reasons that he has previously testified about. He was
10 the head of the SDA party in Vitez. But more
11 importantly, and significantly insofar as the Blaskic
12 case is concerned, this gentleman testified on January
13 the 19th, 1998, I believe, he informed the Trial
14 Chamber that a copy of his thesis was available if the
15 Trial Chamber wished to see it, but he had yet to
16 defend his thesis. Indeed, he told the Trial Chamber
17 that he expected to defend the thesis in June of 1998.
18 I think he said: "It will be presented this June in
19 front of the faculty at the University of Sarajevo."
20 In paragraph 3 of the proffer presented by
21 the Prosecutor, the last sentence states that this
22 thesis has yet to be defended before the faculty. I
23 think that the Court should know that it is a master's
24 thesis, a master's degree, not a doctor's thesis or
25 anything like that. This gentleman is a history teacher
1 from a small town; he has previously described Vitez as
2 a fairly small municipality. He's not a statistician
3 by training or by avocation; he's not an ethnographic
4 expert, if such a thing even exists; he's not a
5 demographer; and he still has yet to defend this
6 master's thesis before the school of political science
7 at the school of political science at the University of
9 We think that this report is going to be,
10 (a), an expert report from someone who has not been
11 identified in accordance with the mandatory
12 requirements of Rule 94 bis; and (b), as he did in
13 Blaskic, a mere conduit for many, many levels of
14 hearsay evidence masquerading under the guise of a
15 supposedly "expert" opinion.
16 Furthermore, Mr. Kajmovic didn't employ any
17 scientific methods. Instead, what he did was he went
18 through the records that he got from the police station
19 in Vitez, and he conducted, according to his Blaskic
20 testimony, about 40 to 50 random interviews and
21 admitted quite candidly to the Trial Chamber, to Judge
22 Jorda, that he had not interviewed a single Croat.
23 Indeed, Mr. Harmon, who was the sponsor of the expert
24 opinion in that case, stated on page 5711 of the
25 transcript that Mr. Kajmovic has explained why he could
1 not do such research.
2 That led to Judge Jorda being very troubled
3 by the admission of this testimony, which he actually
4 allowed in, in the days before Rule 94 bis, and I'd
5 just like to quote Judge Jorda's observation, if I may,
6 from the Bench in that trial, page 5740 of the Blaskic
7 trial transcript. He said that "Because you have a
8 thesis which corresponds to what you believe, and to
9 your commitments in the SDA, and as a Judge, I'm
10 somewhat disturbed that you have this thesis."
11 And we are, too, Your Honours. We believe,
12 in conclusion, that this is procedurally improper; it's
13 a violation of the express, simple, easily
14 understandable, and easily observable requirements of
15 Rule 94 bis; and it jeopardises the right of the
16 Defence to reasonable disclosure. We have never even
17 seen the thesis. We have never been told what this
18 gentleman is going to say. And he is not an expert; he
19 is just a student, at present, who has got a thesis.
20 For those reasons, we object to any attempt
21 to introduce expert testimony through this percipient
22 fact witness.
23 JUDGE MAY: If the witness is not an expert,
24 as this witness has not been categorised in this trial,
25 but he is a witness who -- as a student, as you put it
1 -- has made a study, why should that study not be
2 admitted, whatever the niceties of whether the thesis
3 has been defended or not? Why should he not be
4 entitled to give evidence of the study and then the
5 Court give it what weight it thinks it should have?
6 You can cross-examine as to it. I'm not sure how
7 significant the evidence is, but it will be open to you
8 to do that. What is the damage and prejudice if that
9 course is followed?
10 MR. SAYERS: Because, Judge May, we have to
11 cross-examine on the fly. We've never even seen the
12 study or the report or any of the opinions. We have no
13 idea what he is going to say, even, in his testimony.
14 JUDGE MAY: What have you been given?
15 MR. SAYERS: The only thing that we have,
16 Your Honours, is a copy of the transcript of this
17 gentleman's testimony in Blaskic, where he articulated
18 a number of opinions; but even then, we couldn't tell
19 what the basis for those opinions was, and nor could
20 the Defence, because they hadn't been given the study
21 either. So the way that the evidence came in was
22 purely oral testimony, in a completely ad hoc way, and
23 that's what we're confronted with right now.
24 JUDGE MAY: Well, let me make some inquiries
25 about this.
1 Mr. Nice, I hadn't appreciated that there
2 were no underlying documents.
3 MR. NICE: There are four underlying
4 documents. I'm sorry they hadn't been produced
5 earlier; it's my oversight for not distributing them
6 last week, I think, really.
7 What it amounts to is that at paragraph 31,
8 over the page, is the only conclusion I'm concerned to
9 elicit from this witness, which are two rather modest
10 conclusions. They're two statistical conclusions.
11 They're not dissimilar from the sort of conclusions
12 that people have been giving, by way of estimate,
13 regularly throughout this trial when they're asked,
14 "Well, by what percentage, in your estimate, did the
15 population increase or decrease as to its ethnic
16 composition, and so on, by what percentages did it
18 In the case of this witness, by reference to
19 a couple of maps on which he's charted information and
20 a couple of charts on which he has charted information,
21 he can give the modest statistical conclusions that are
22 contained in paragraph 31, and that's all.
23 JUDGE MAY: To the effect that part of the
24 Muslim population left?
25 MR. NICE: Correct.
1 JUDGE MAY: And that the Croat population
3 MR. NICE: That's it. It may well be, in
4 fact, that these aren't contested by the Defence as
5 conclusions; I don't know.
6 (Trial Chamber confers)
7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic?
8 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Mr. President,
9 allow me to add a couple of words which may help to
10 clarify the matter. First of all, I should like to
11 confirm that we never received these documents, and
12 therefore I'm convinced that we cannot conduct the
13 cross-examination properly, because we have no way of
14 verifying those data within a couple of hours or during
15 the day. It seems to me that that would be highly
16 prejudicial for the Defence, if it has no time to
17 verify the data, on the basis of the Rules that my
18 learned friend has already referred to.
19 As for the substance of data that we might
20 learn from this, I should like to recall that in the
21 supporting material, the Prosecution has offered
22 official statistical data; that is, the population
23 census of the official institution responsible for
24 this. That was the Statistical Institute of the former
25 Yugoslavia and the Statistical Institute of the
1 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So that was the basic
2 data; that is the ethnic structure of the population
3 before the outbreak of conflicts, because it was mere
4 chance that census was carried out in 1991, and we
5 received those materials as part of the supporting
7 As for the migrations that occurred in the
8 course of the conflict, I assure you there is a host of
9 official data produced by various institutions, among
10 which, I can tell you from memory, there are the parish
11 authorities of the new Federation of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina; then there are the data of the
13 federal authorities of the Federation, on which the
14 financing and reconstruction of returnees' homes is
15 being financed. These are exhaustive data. Some of
16 them I have seen myself.
17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Kovacic,
18 I think we all wish to avoid wasting too much time. In
19 reality, one testimony does not exclude others. If
20 there is an evaluation to be given, it is up to the
21 Chamber to judge the weight of it. This does not mean
22 to say that there is no other information coming from
23 other sources and which will also be conveyed to the
24 Chamber, either by the Prosecution or the Defence.
25 Therefore I think we should try to save time, hearing
1 one estimate that is not a global expertise, or
2 thesis. Regardless of the level of that thesis, it is
3 simply a question put by the Prosecution to the
4 witness. Do you have a fundamental objection if this
5 witness is asked for his estimate, for what it's
6 worth? I think these are not crucial issues, and we
7 should avoid too much argument over them. Thank you.
8 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,
9 in answer to the question you have put to me, the
10 answer is yes, I do have an objection, because I think
11 that such a matter will be part of the record as an
12 opinion of an expert person whom we are indirectly
13 proclaiming to be an expert witness. As for saving
14 time, my objection is partly along those lines too.
15 Instead of focusing on qualitative, trustworthy
16 evidence, which it is up to the Prosecution to provide,
17 we are substituting existing and accessible data with
18 non-reliable sources, and we are wasting time in the
19 process. That is my point. Thank you.
20 (Trial Chamber confers)
21 JUDGE MAY: We really are concerned about the
22 time being wasted in this trial on what is a relatively
23 trivial issue.
24 First of all, this witness is not being put
25 forward as an expert. Now, it may be that in some
1 jurisdictions, people other than experts cannot give
2 their opinion. That rule does not apply, as far as I
3 know, in this jurisdiction. This witness has made a
4 study of the topic, and in our judgement he's perfectly
5 entitled to put forward what his conclusions are.
6 The issue is a relatively narrow one and not,
7 I should have thought, of great significance. If the
8 Defence wish to cross-examine at length on it, they
9 will be subject to the direction of the Court, but no
10 doubt any relevant documents can be disclosed.
11 Meanwhile, other evidence, no doubt, can be called
12 about it, if there are better sources, by the Defence.
13 But we really hope not too much time is going to be
14 taken up with what looks to be a very small point.
15 Yes. Call the evidence, and briefly,
17 MR. NICE: Can the witness, I think, have
18 collectively the table 2140, table 2153? That's in
19 B/C/S, but it's probably -- and it's got the English
20 and French translations attached to it. Can he also
21 have the map 2141 and the map 2154? Please put the
22 demographic map for 1991 on the ELMO. Thank you.
23 Q. Did you prepare this document as part of your
24 studies; "Yes" or "No"?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The dots are keyed as to the ethnic origin of
2 people resident in particular areas; is that correct?
3 A. It is.
4 Q. From where did you get the information that
5 identifies those who were Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs and
6 then Yugoslavians and others? Where did you get the
7 information from?
8 A. It was like this: If I may just briefly
9 comment, the objection of the Defence --
10 Q. I don't want you to comment, I want you to --
11 no, don't bother with what happens in Court. Please
12 listen to the questions. Just tell us, where did you
13 get the information as translated in blue, red, green,
14 and black dots?
15 A. Yes, these are official statistical data,
16 rather the data of the statistical administration of
17 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, dating to 1991, so
18 these are official data.
19 MR. NICE: Thank you. Can he have the
20 demographic map for 1996, which is another map that
21 looks like this? I trust the Court has got it.
22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
23 MR. NICE: Would you mind putting it on the
25 Q. This relates to 1996 and to a smaller area.
1 From where did you get this information?
2 A. Yes, these are the results I arrived at
3 through the investigation and analysis of different
4 sources. The ethnic composition of the population in
5 the municipality of Vitez looks more or less as it is
6 represented on this map. New figures will become
7 available only after a new census. Of course, there
8 hasn't been a census now but there are some estimates
9 of the statistical administration of the Republic of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they are at very little
11 variance with the figures that I arrived at. I even
12 think that the figures that I came to are more accurate
13 than the estimates of the statistical administration of
14 the Republic.
15 MR. NICE: That's all I wanted. May we look,
16 please, then --
17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice,
18 the Court does need to know certain things. There
19 is a legend here explaining different colours, and we
20 need a minimum interpretation, if possible.
21 Could I have the translation of the legend of
22 these symbols, the thing that is in a box here? We
23 cannot read Serbo-Croatian, and I can't see any other
24 language that I would understand, explaining what the
25 signs mean.
1 MR. NICE:
2 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, will you look at the box?
3 Perhaps the unit could focus down on the box
4 and enlarge it on the ELMO. The box contains a key.
5 Can you tell us, the first colour in blue,
6 "Hrvati" is "Croat", the second in green is Bosniak?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The third, "Ostali" is "Other"?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The black line means what?
11 A. The black line means the boundaries of the
12 Vitez municipality, between the Vitez municipality and
13 other municipalities, but there is an error here. The
14 dotted line is the boundary between the Vitez and
15 adjacent municipalities, and the full line is
16 practically the line separating the part of the Vitez
17 municipality which continued under the HVO control and
18 the other part which remained under the administrative
19 control of the lawful BH authorities. These green,
20 blue and white circles indicate the ethnic structure
21 or, rather, the exchange after the aggression.
22 Of course, we have here the data showing that
23 the Croat population in the municipality of Vitez has
24 risen by some 20 per cent, that it was about 45
25 per cent formerly and it has reached some 64,98, and
1 correspondingly, of course, a drop in the share of the
2 Bosniak population expelled from the territory of the
3 Vitez municipality.
4 Q. The drop in the Bosniak population was by
5 what percentage, approximately?
6 A. The drop was -- well, we have it here. From
7 41 to 33,763 per cent, so it would make a decline of
8 about seven per cent.
9 Q. That's all I need, save only for this: There
10 are two tables produced to the Court which you might
11 just look at to identify, numbers 2140 and 2153. Do
12 those tables contain -- and here the documents are in
13 B/C/S, English and French. Do those documents contain,
14 in tabulated form, information about population at
15 various locations including Vitez? Just "Yes" or "No"
16 to that.
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 MR. NICE: Thank you. You can answer
19 questions about that, if asked.
20 Thank you very much.
21 A. Yes, this table shows the ethnic structure
22 according to the 1991 census. According to the
23 so-called --
24 MR. NICE: Mr. Kajmovic, you've given the
25 evidence we need, the table is self-explanatory, and it
1 may be the others will ask you questions. Maybe they
3 Thank you. You'll be asked further
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Who is going to
7 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Mr. President,
8 I should first like to suggest that we be given some
9 time to prepare for the cross-examination. I am
10 suggesting this because this witness, less perhaps so
11 on Friday, but today very evidently was examined in
12 much greater detail and much greater depth than
13 indicated by his previous statements.
14 We were quite taken by surprise by some
15 things that today we could not find all that detail in
16 earlier statements, not even in the Prosecutor's
17 summary could we find anything, or there were
18 discrepancies between the statements in summaries and
19 the evidence of the witness, and for no other reason
20 than for a more rational approach to cross-examination
21 and to avoid repetition and going back to some of the
23 Secondly, in view of the breadth and the
24 surprises, we should also like to ask for your
25 permission to split it. We have two Defence counsel in
1 this matter, and we should like to split it in two, for
2 one to examine the witness as to his evidence and the
3 other one to go through the diary which was given us
4 under the discovery period, so that we could proceed
6 We should like to start our cross-examination
7 tomorrow, because there were a number of new facts
8 which we did not hear before and we did not hear from
9 our client either.
10 Thank you.
11 (Trial Chamber confers)
12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, are you ready to
14 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour, I am.
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Kovacic, we're not
16 going to allow two cross-examinations. Only one is
17 allowed. It's more than enough per accused.
18 Secondly, you've got until half past 2.00 to
19 get ready.
21 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers.
23 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, my name is Steve Sayers. I
24 represent Dario Kordic. Good morning.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. I believe, sir, that you have given two
2 previous statements to the investigators helping the
3 Prosecutor in this case. Is that correct?
4 A. One, as far as I know, in 1995.
5 Q. You gave a statement to Mr. Gerns on July 13,
6 1995; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. A lady by the name of Emina Kaknjo was
9 present at that interview, I believe.
10 A. I don't remember what was the interpreter's
12 Q. Well, according to the face page of your
13 statement, sir, John Gerns was the interviewer. You
14 remember him?
15 A. I believe it was a Pakistani.
16 Q. The interpreter, and forgive me for my
17 abysmal pronunciation, is Adisa Karamuratovic. Do you
18 remember her?
19 A. No, I don't. There were several interpreters
20 and I don't remember all these things, because the
21 statement was made one day and then the next day there
22 were corrections made to it and then checks. There
23 were further conversations related to the statement. I
24 really can't go into the method used by the
25 investigation team.
1 Q. The name of the other person present at this
2 interview, at least according to your statement, is
3 Emina Kaknjo. Do you know her?
4 A. There were several interpreters, there were a
5 number of interpreters. I paid no attention to such
7 Q. All right. Then you said that you gave a
8 statement at which you believe another person was
9 present. Was that person Ehsan Ullah Bajwa? Does that
10 ring a bell?
11 A. I don't know. I mean this was completely
12 irrelevant to me, and I think it's quite immaterial. I
13 don't think it is important. It is the investigation
14 team that did their job, and I really wasn't interested
15 in all that, so that names I never remembered. Nor did
16 I try to remember them.
17 Q. The point is the second statement you gave to
18 the Tribunal's investigators was about two years later
19 on January 27th, 1997. Do you remember that?
20 A. If you mean the evidence about demographic
21 changes in the Vitez municipality, well, it wasn't much
22 of a statement because I came here to testify.
23 Q. Well, just to clear this up, since you seem
24 to be in some confusion, sir, maybe it would be a good
25 idea if I showed you your two statements.
1 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D33/1.
2 A. This is a supplement to the first statement,
3 and that is all there is to it. Yes, that is one and
4 one only statement, and this was a supplement to the
5 first statement.
6 MR. SAYERS:
7 Q. Just wait for the question, Mr. Kajmovic. I
8 think we can clear this up in short order.
9 I believe that on the ELMO right now is a
10 statement that you gave on July the 13th, 1995, and I
11 would just like you to take a look at the last page and
12 confirm that that's your signature, sir.
13 A. Yes, it is, a supplement to the first
15 Q. The second statement that you gave --
16 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, when we get to a
19 convenient moment, we'll adjourn.
20 MR. SAYERS: If I could just get the witness
21 to authenticate these documents, I think that's an
22 appropriate point, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
24 MR. SAYERS:
25 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, the second statement is
1 actually the one that you gave to the investigators two
2 years or one and a half years --
3 A. Yes, but we see it as one statement.
4 Q. All right. Just one set of questions on this
5 before the break.
6 The purpose of a second statement was to
7 explain and clarify some of the unclear statements that
8 you had made one and a half years earlier, wasn't it?
9 A. I suppose so. No, excuse me. When I was
10 making that first part, if I call it that, of the
11 statement, perhaps some things we did not say because
12 we were more or less answering questions of the
13 Prosecutor's office, that is, answering what he had to
14 ask us. Then subsequently -- well, and there were a
15 number of interviews until eventually we finally made,
16 shall I say, the rounded-off statement, the complete
17 statement. So that was it.
18 Q. You did say in the first paragraph of the
19 statement that the purpose was to explain and clarify
20 some of the points arising from the last statement;
22 A. Possibly the first statement was not
23 complete. Perhaps it did not cover all the detail or
24 the particulars and things. These things are
25 irrelevant. I'm quite ready to answer questions
1 related to these statements.
2 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, that might be a
3 convenient point.
4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn now. We'll
5 sit again at half past 2.00 or as early as possible
6 thereafter. We're holding an initial appearance, as
7 you know, at 2.00.
8 Mr. Kajmovic, could you be back, please, at
9 half past 2.00 to continue your evidence?
10 A. Yes.
11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.
2 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kajmovic. Just to close
4 the loop on the statements that we were looking at, do
5 you or do you not know someone by the name of Emina
7 A. I believe that I would able to recognise
9 Q. Now, during the time that you've been talking
10 about, you actually kept a contemporaneous diary
11 consisting of some hundreds of pages, did you not?
12 A. It was not a diary, but there were certain
13 notes from a particular period.
14 Q. But you kept an ongoing chronicle, if you
15 like, of significant things that you would make a note
16 of; right?
17 A. They weren't crucial things. They were just
18 notes which are sort of minutes necessary when you
19 attend meetings. So these were really notes from
20 certain meetings as well as for certain meetings.
21 Q. Right. And in fact, in your diary, you go on
22 to describe or to make notes of meetings that you and
23 your colleagues had with members of the HVO, or the
24 Croat side, if you like, over the course of about a
25 year, from the middle of 1992 until about the middle of
1 1993; isn't that right?
2 A. I kept certain notes which were necessary for
3 me. Sometimes they were more copies than at others,
4 and I don't know exactly which notebook you're
5 referring to, which notes, so I'm not clear on that.
6 It is possible that some of the notes, these are notes
7 which the HVO found in my house after the beginning of
8 the conflict and the occupation of the town of Vitez,
9 so to speak. In other words, I would need to know
10 which notes you're referring to, and then I could be
11 more specific and say more what you're referring to.
12 MR. SAYERS: With the Chamber's permission, I
13 only have one copy of this rather substantial document
14 that we actually received from the Prosecution. I
15 would like to show it to the witness and just have him
16 authenticate it.
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
18 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, do you recognise the document
20 that we've put in front of you, ignoring for a moment
21 the yellow tabs, which I've put on that document
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And is that the chronicle or series of notes
25 to which you have just referred?
1 A. I would need to review it a little bit.
2 Yes, this is, I believe, one of these
3 notebooks. It is my handwriting, and it could be one
4 of my notebooks. It could be either one of the ones
5 which I had turned over to the Prosecution or one of
6 the ones which you may have acquired in another way.
7 But from the pages which I have gone through, I can see
8 that this is my signature, and this is my notebook.
9 Q. All right. How many notebooks did you
10 actually turn over to the Prosecution, apart from that
12 A. I believe that this was one notebook.
13 Q. Only one notebook is what you turned over to
14 Mr. Gerns, I take it?
15 A. Yes, as far as I can recall, only one.
16 Q. All right. And let me just put one
17 proposition to you, sir, and ask you to agree, "Yes" or
18 "No." The name "Dario Kordic" does not appear in the
19 hundreds of pages of those notes that you took
20 contemporaneously, anywhere, does it?
21 A. I would need to look, but probably there's no
22 mention of it.
23 Q. All right. Now, just a few general
24 questions, if I may, before I turn to more specific
25 matters, and let me just say that I hope to be
1 completed with these questions, with your co-operation,
2 sir, in about 45 minutes, if possible. And since I
3 tend to speak rather quickly, please, if you would,
4 just wait to hear the translation, and then answer my
5 question, and we'll get along just fine, I think.
6 You would agree, sir, that the years 1992 and
7 1993 were a time of complete political and military
8 chaos in your municipality, would you not?
9 A. '93, yes. '92, at least the first half, I
10 don't think you could quite call it chaos, but the
11 second half, yes, of course.
12 Q. You would agree with me that there was a
13 really remarkable surge in criminal activity in the
14 second half of 1992 and throughout 1993, would you not?
15 A. Absolutely not. There were sabotages and
16 destruction of Bosniak structures, if you will, but
17 there was no chaos there.
18 Q. All right. Let me see if I understand your
19 position, sir. As I understand it, you were the
20 president of the SDA in Vitez?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You became a member of the first crisis staff
23 that was established in Vitez?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You became a member of the war presidency
2 established in Vitez, I believe, in January of 1993?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You did not? You organised the coordination
5 committee for the protection of Muslims, did you not?
6 A. The coordination committee for the protection
7 of interests of Muslims, yes, but after -- this was
8 after a particular processes there, yes.
9 Q. You were also the commander of the civilian
10 defence force after April the 16th of 1993 until the
11 end of the hostilities that you described in your
12 direct examination? "Yes" or "No"?
13 A. Yes, only at the Stari Vitez level, not for
14 the entire municipality. Only for Stari Vitez, the Old
16 Q. You were not in fact the commander of the
17 civilian police, were you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And as I understand your testimony, you now
20 live in Zenica; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And during the war, that was the headquarters
23 of the 3rd Corps of the ABiH?
24 A. Yes, that's where the headquarters was.
25 Q. In fact, it was the headquarters of General
1 Hadzihasanovic was it not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, you gave some cursory testimony about
4 questions that Mr. Kordic asked you as a student many,
5 many years ago; do you remember that?
6 A. As a pupil, and there were some questions on
7 history. I cannot recall specifically what.
8 Q. All right. Now, let me just turn, if I may,
9 to your knowledge of the military structure of the
10 HVO. Two and a half years ago, when you gave certain
11 corrections and amendments to the investigators of this
12 Tribunal, in your January 1997 statement, you told
13 them -- and I believe that you've testified to this
14 effect today -- that you were not very familiar with
15 the military structure of the HVO, and you would agree
16 with that, would you not?
17 A. Yes, approximately so.
18 Q. But you knew Colonel Tihomir Blaskic and
19 Colonel Filip Filipovic were the established military
20 authorities in Vitez, did you not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And both of these gentlemen were former JNA
23 officers, weren't they?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you told the investigators that
1 Mr. Cerkez was some sort of commander in the HVO in
2 Vitez in some capacity, but you didn't really know in
3 what capacity; right?
4 A. That he was something like a commander
5 probably of a brigade at the Vitez level. This is what
6 I knew, approximately.
7 Q. All right, sir. But you stressed to the
8 investigators that this was just, to use your word,
9 your impression; right?
10 A. Yes, yes. This is also how he acted while
11 giving the ultimatum.
12 Q. Right. You could not be sure what the
13 military structure of the HVO was and where Mr. Cerkez
14 fit into that, actually, could you?
15 A. No. I think that military persons would be
16 more competent to talk about this.
17 Q. Do you know anything about Brigadier General
18 Milivoj Petkovic?
19 A. No. I have heard of him, but I don't know
20 any details about him.
21 Q. Do you know who the president of the HVO in
22 all of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was in the
23 second half of 1992 and 1993?
24 A. As far as I know, at the level of Bosnia and
25 Herzegovina, Dzjena Kaprilic was the head of
1 the HVO, and the president of the presidency of
2 Herceg-Bosna was Mate Boban. Then there were some
3 changes, but I just don't know enough about the
4 structures to be able to tell you what changes occurred
6 Q. All right. Let's pass on to the next
7 subject, which is Mr. Kordic and the oath-taking
8 ceremony that you described in Vitez Stadium sometime
9 in the summer or towards the end of 1992.
10 In your July the 13th statement, on page 7,
11 you actually said that this oath-taking ceremony
12 supposedly occurred at the end of 1992. Do you recall
13 whether it was in the summer of 1992 or the end of 1992
14 or has the lapse of seven years dimmed your memory in
15 that regard?
16 A. I believe that it was most probably August.
17 I know it was very warm. I know that a soldier
18 collapsed. He needed some medical assistance, and then
19 I remember us commenting it was probably due to heat.
20 So it could have been August or July. Sometimes even
21 September can be pretty hot. I'm not sure, but I know
22 that it was quite warm.
23 Q. Now, this oath-taking ceremony actually
24 followed a similar oath-taking ceremony for the members
25 of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, didn't it? It
1 had been held some time earlier?
2 A. Yes, similar, except here we had a larger
3 parade, that is, at the municipality level, and there
4 was oath-taking, and the oath taken by these soldiers
5 was that they would be fighting for Herceg-Bosna rather
6 than Bosnia and Herzegovina, so that was the
8 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but my question
9 was an extremely simple question. The oath-taking
10 ceremony that you described followed a similar
11 oath-taking ceremony for the members of the army of
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina, didn't it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. You said that --
15 A. The BH army oath taking never took place at
16 the stadium.
17 Q. You say that Mr. Kordic, to the best of your
18 recollection, arrived at the oath-taking ceremony in
19 the Stadium Vitez about five to six minutes before it
20 closed. Do you remember that?
6 Q. In fact, he was on the crisis staff with you,
7 was he not?
8 A. He was not on the crisis staff.
9 Q. Well, he was a prominent Muslim politician in
10 your municipality, right, and you knew him well?
11 A. I knew him.
12 Q. All right. You said that you can't quote
13 verbatim what Mr. Kordic supposedly said seven years
14 ago. Do you admit to the possibility that actually
15 Mr. Kordic said absolutely nothing about the Muslims in
16 that speech there?
17 A. I don't know if you have a tape or not, but
18 it is quite true and evident that he levelled certain
19 threats against the Bosniak people in that region, and
20 he even insisted that Alija Izetbegovic convince his
21 own people that this was historical Croat territory.
22 Now, that is true.
23 Q. (redacted)
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.
4 MR. NICE: Can we just quickly go into
5 private session, please?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Just one moment, please.
8 (Private session)
15 (Open session)
16 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
18 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, I'll need to amend
19 this in order to reflect the pseudonym instead of the
20 actual name for the document on the front, and with the
21 Trial Chamber's permission, I'll submit a replacement
22 page tomorrow.
23 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
24 MR. SAYERS:
25 Q. I'm referring you specifically to page 6500
1 of the testimony of this witness, where the witness
2 says that Mr. Kordic, during this speech, "... spoke of
3 Vitez as a traditionally and historically Croatian
4 territory, and he said that they had to defend that
5 territory. Unfortunately, he did not mention the
6 Muslims in Vitez. He never mentioned the Muslim
7 people. He, what is more indirectly, was speaking
8 against the Muslims."
9 Do you agree or disagree with that statement,
10 in fact?
11 A. I recall that the speech was filled with
12 threats, that he had addressed himself to President
13 Izetbegovic, that the speech contained quite a few
14 threats to the Muslim people, and I don't know about
15 the interpretations. They can be, you know, different
16 ones, but that is the essence. This is how I
17 understood it.
18 He did address himself to President
19 Izetbegovic. He did mention a Croatian historic
20 territory. He said that this would be Croatian
21 territory, and he expressed some threats too.
22 Q. All right, sir. Now, you say that you met
23 Mr. Kordic at several meetings in 1992; is that
25 A. Yes. These were several meetings which were
1 attended by representatives from Travnik, Novi Travnik,
2 Busovaca and Vitez, and certain issues were tabled
3 there, trying to be resolved, the matters of police
4 markings and insignia and other things, but nothing was
5 able to be solved.
6 Q. Well, Mr. Kordic actually attended these
7 meetings as the president of the HDZ for the Busovaca
8 municipality, did he not?
9 A. Yes. For instance, I remember his attending
10 one of these meetings in Busovaca. Whether he attended
11 all of them, I'm not absolutely sure.
12 Q. Now, you say that you saw Mr. Kordic on
13 several occasions wearing camouflage clothes, clothing,
14 or a camouflage uniform?
15 A. Not several times, but I saw him, for
16 instance, at that parade in Vitez and then when this
17 incident happened with multiple rocket launchers in
18 Novi Travnik, and that is about it. I did not see him
19 many times.
20 Q. You never saw him wearing any rank insignia,
21 did you?
22 A. He may have had some rank insignia, but I did
23 not see it because I did not meet him very often.
24 Q. But when you saw him on the TV, you always
25 saw him carrying a rosary and a crucifix, did you not?
1 A. Yes. That was rather unusual for the
2 conditions at the time, and it left an imprint in my
4 Q. All right. Let me turn to the next subject,
5 the blockade at Ahmici.
6 At the point where the roadblock was actually
7 set up on October the 19th, 1992, this was just below
8 the village of Ahmici; is that correct?
9 A. It was in the village of Ahmici.
10 Q. It was on the main supply route between Vitez
11 and the towns to the west and towns to the east such as
12 Zenica and Busovaca; right?
13 A. Yes, on the road going from Lasva in the
14 direction of Travnik.
15 Q. You've previously testified in the Blaskic
16 case in January of 1998 that this was, to use your
17 words, a strategically-important point; correct?
18 A. A strategically-important point for the HVO,
19 in the sense that that was the only position where it
20 could have been possible to enter -- to break the
21 communication line which was under the control of the
23 Q. Well, you actually said that it was only at
24 this point that the HVO troops could be halted on the
25 road from Busovaca to Vitez; isn't that right?
1 A. For the attack on the BH army in Novi
3 Q. Well, you do agree that you told the Court,
4 page 5733 that, "It was a strategically-important
5 point, and only at this point was there any danger that
6 it could be cut off and that the HVO may not be able to
7 use it for military purposes," right, you remember
8 saying that?
9 A. Yes, because in Ahmici, on the road, in
10 addition to Croats there were quite a number of
11 Bosniaks living there.
12 Q. My only question was whether you said that
13 and you agree with that, that that was your testimony
14 in the Blaskic case about a year and a quarter ago. It
15 was, wasn't it?
16 A. That was a place where the army could have
17 put up a barricade. Let me put it this way: The
18 access to the road was there.
19 Q. I'd like to stop you there. I'm sorry to do
20 it. I don't mean to be impolite, but I'm happy to show
21 you your testimony in the Blaskic case in January of
23 You do agree that that was your testimony,
24 don't you?
25 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think we've been around
1 this point, Mr. Sayers. You've made the point.
2 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, I think so. I'll
3 move on.
4 Q. Now, it's true also that General
5 Hadzihasanovic, the commander of the 3rd Corps in
6 Zenica, ordered that blockade to be set up at that
7 strategically important point; isn't that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. (Obscured by interpretation) was to take
10 control of the road communications, wasn't it?
11 A. No. The aim was to halt the passage of HVO
12 units from Busovaca, Fojnica, and Kiseljak going to
13 Novi Travnik.
14 Q. Once again, on page 5733, your testimony in
15 Blaskic, quote: "So this was one of the motives, to
16 take control of this road communications, and this
17 would be the purely military aspect of it." Did you
18 say that in the Blaskic case, one and a quarter years
19 ago, sir, under oath?
20 A. No, no, please don't do that. I do not
21 agree, absolutely not. The order was to put up the
22 barricade, to halt -- to prevent the passage of units
23 to Novi Travnik and thereby to prevent an HVO attack on
24 the army at Novi Travnik. It was not a question of
25 controlling the communication.
1 MR. SAYERS: With the Trial Chamber's
2 permission, I'm more than happy to make copies of this
3 page and move on to the next point, but that was the
4 testimony in Blaskic.
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
6 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.
7 Q. Now, you would agree with me, therefore, sir,
8 that the HVO troop convoy moving along the road on
9 October the 19th encountered a blocked road and armed
10 people pointing guns at them to impede their progress
11 to points west; correct?
12 A. Yes, their aim was to impede the passage of
13 HVO soldiers, but not to shoot at them, but just to
14 prevent them from passing.
15 May I please make a remark? Please don't try
16 to force me to confirm your own inferences which
17 absolutely have no grounds and do not correspond to
18 reality. This was not a question of controlling
19 communications or territory, but simply to try and stop
20 the passage of large units so that the conflict in Novi
21 Travnik could be localised and halted.
22 Q. Yes, and to stop the passage of those units
23 by force of arms; correct?
24 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think, Mr. Sayers, we've
25 been through this probably enough. This witness's
1 evidence had to do with a conversation at the
3 MR. SAYERS: Right. And I am going to turn
4 to that subject right now, Your Honour.
5 Q. You had a conversation with Mr. Kaknjo,
6 Mr. Santic, and Mr. Cerkez at the ABiH headquarters in
7 Vitez on April the 18th -- I'm sorry, on October the
8 18th or 19th; you couldn't remember which. Right?
9 A. Probably in the night of the 19th.
10 Q. All right. And this conversation occurred
11 fairly late at night, didn't it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. There's no mention of this incident anywhere
14 in the contemporaneous notes that you have before you,
15 is there, sir?
16 A. Possibly not, because I couldn't make notes
17 every time.
18 Q. And it was actually Mr. Kaknjo who made the
19 telephone call to a Novi Travnik number; is that
21 A. Yes. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. All right. And Mr. Kaknjo was also a leading
23 political figure in Vitez; in fact, he was the
24 president of the executive board after the 1990
25 elections, one of the top Muslim politicians in Vitez.
2 A. A Bosniak politician, yes. And please don't
3 use that term. This is a membership of a faith, of a
4 faith, so please be precise in the expressions you use.
5 Q. Did you know that an offer had been made to
6 Mr. Kaknjo to become the deputy president of the HVO in
7 Vitez, sir?
8 A. I was not familiar with that detail. It is
9 the first time that I hear of it.
10 Q. How many people were in the room with
11 Mr. Kordic in Novi Travnik? Do you have any idea?
12 A. It was a meeting in the building of the
13 municipal assembly of Novi Travnik. Possibly there
14 were some 15 people there. In any event, there was
15 quite a number.
16 The discussion went on for some time, and the
17 meeting ended by satisfying the request of Dario
18 Kordic. I can even say that there were some funny
19 things, because the director warned Dario Kordic that
20 not any driver could come in and drive those trucks,
21 because they require special handling, and any error
22 could be serious. Then they looked for drivers who
23 were qualified. But in any event, what he demanded had
24 to be met.
25 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, are you mixing up two separate
1 meetings, one that occurred at the Bratstvo facility in
2 the spring of 1992 and the October 1992 conversation
3 about which I'm asking some questions of you right
5 A. I'm referring to a meeting held in 1992. I'm
6 not aware of any meeting in Bratstvo, but Dario Kordic
7 brought some 100 soldiers outside the gates of Bratstvo
8 trying to enter. And since there was resistance
9 against that, a meeting was organised in the building
10 of the municipal assembly of Novi Travnik late at
12 Q. I'm not asking you any questions whatsoever
13 about the Bratstvo, spring 1992, Novi Travnik affair.
14 You've given your testimony on that; I have no
15 questions to ask you about that. What I'm asking you
16 to focus on, sir, is the telephone conversation that
17 you supposedly had with Mr. Kordic, or which you did
18 have with Mr. Kordic, in October of 1992 -- to be more
19 accurate, that Mr. Fuad Kaknjo had with Mr. Kordic.
20 How long did this telephone conversation
21 last, sir?
22 A. I would like to ask you to be kind enough not
23 to confuse these two meetings, the talk in Vitez and
24 the talk with Dario Kordic during the HVO attack on
25 Novi Travnik and the meeting in Novi Travnik when Dario
1 Kordic was present and asked for a multiple rocket
2 launcher. So it is you who is confusing the two
3 meetings. If you're talking about the meeting --
4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kajmovic, we are not going to
5 get on like this. Counsel is here, and he is entitled
6 to ask his questions. If we indulge in argument, we
7 shall all be here a very long time.
8 Mr. Sayers, I don't think there is much point
9 going on with this.
10 MR. SAYERS: I'm inclined to agree with you,
11 Your Honour, but this was a point that the Prosecution
12 sort of concentrated on somewhat. If I might just ask
13 a few questions about the circumstances?
14 JUDGE MAY: Put, by all means, your account
15 of what happened on the telephone, if you want. In
16 fact, we would like to know what it is that the Defence
17 say about that.
18 MR. SAYERS: The Defence position is this,
19 Your Honour -- I'm glad that you asked. There was such
20 a conversation; Mr. Fuad Kaknjo, at the request of
21 Mr. -- actually, at his own instance, made a call to
22 Dario Kordic in Novi Travnik. I believe it was October
23 the 19th, 1992. Combat activities had been initiated
24 in that town by a fellow by the name of commander Refik
25 Lendo, L-E-N-D-O, and Mr. Kordic said that he was not
1 inclined to talk to Mr. Kaknjo unless Mr. Refik Lendo
2 turned himself over to the HVO forces.
3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Sayers,
4 perhaps we can hear the witness confirm this, after
5 all, because this was referred to in the
6 examination-in-chief this morning. There was a meeting
7 held after the affair with Bratstvo, the Bratstvo
8 factory, arms factory, and then after the events linked
9 to the barricades and Novi Travnik, the witness told us
10 that they went to telephone Dario Kordic. Perhaps we
11 could ask him whether he was a member of this
12 delegation, and when was this in 1992 when this
13 delegation called Dario Kordic? At least we will know
14 exactly where we are. Otherwise, we seem to be a
15 little confused.
16 MR. SAYERS: I think that's a good
17 suggestion, Your Honour, and I'll try to clear that up
18 with some questions.
19 Q. Do I understand your testimony to be, sir,
20 that on the evening of either October the 18th or
21 October the 19th, 1992, you were in the military
22 headquarters of the ABiH in Vitez along with Mr. Fuad
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And at that time, you received a visit from
1 Mr. Santic and Mr. Cerkez; correct?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. Mr. Santic was the president of the HVO in
4 Vitez; correct?
5 A. The HVO government in Vitez, and he was still
6 formally the town mayor of Vitez municipality.
7 Q. And these two gentlemen actually came to see
8 Mr. Kaknjo, and you just happened to be there when they
9 arrived; correct?
10 A. They came to see Sefkjia Dzidic, the
11 commander of the Territorial Defence, and we were in
12 the room where the commander was.
13 Q. And as I understand it, here is what
14 happened. Mr. Kaknjo offered to place a call to Dario
15 Kordic in Novi Travnik where hostilities, where
16 fighting was going on; correct?
17 A. No. May I tell you what actually happened?
18 Q. Well --
19 JUDGE MAY: Let counsel put his account, and
20 then you can put yours, Mr. Kajmovic.
21 MR. SAYERS:
22 Q. Have you ever spoken to Fuad Kaknjo about
23 this particular event?
24 A. You asked me a question.
25 Q. Let me ask you to answer this question: Have
1 you ever spoken to Fuad Kaknjo about what happened that
3 A. I really have to respond. Certain facts are
4 being skipped over, and I'm asked to give you others.
5 I must tell you that Mario Cerkez and Ivica Santic came
6 with the request for the BH army to remove the
7 barricade. We said we wouldn't do that until you stop
8 the attack on Novi Travnik. Ivica Santic answered, "I
9 do not have the authority to take such decisions, but I
10 can give you a telephone number to call up Kordic, who
11 is in Novi Travnik. He's the only one who can make
12 such a decision."
13 And that is the substance of the matter.
14 Obviously the Defence is avoiding that and is skipping
15 over it and wants to know whether I spoke to Kaknjo
16 about this. I did speak to Fuad Kaknjo about many
17 things, including this. There is no dispute over that.
18 MR. SAYERS: Well, let me just, if I may,
19 distribute to the Trial Chamber that Mr. Kaknjo's
20 account of what went on -- and I'd just like to ask the
21 witness whether he agrees or disagrees with that, which
22 I think is necessary, since we're dealing with memory
23 over a long period of time, if I may. It's pages 199
24 to 201 of Mr. Kaknjo's testimony, February 19th, 1999,
25 in the Aleksovski case.
1 JUDGE MAY: You can put that, Mr. Sayers, and
2 then perhaps we can move on.
3 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
6 MR. SAYERS:
7 Q. Now, Mr. Kajmovic, here's what Mr. Kaknjo had
8 to say regarding this. He was asked what he suggested
9 after a meeting with Mr. Santic and Mr. Cerkez, and his
10 answer was,
11 A. "I suggested -- I proposed that
12 the president of the
13 municipality ..."
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Which page,
16 MR. SAYERS: Page 199, Your Honour, lines 14
17 and 15.
18 Actually, could you put it on the ELMO for
19 the translators? Thank you.
20 Q. Over on the next page:
21 "... go to Vitez and try to calm
22 down the situation.
23 Q. This is that you and Ivica Santic
24 go over, is that right?
25 A. In fact, we did not go. That was
1 just an attempt.
2 Q. That was your suggestion?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What did he say to you when you
5 suggested that proposal?
6 A. That he talked and that it did not
7 happen, so that I could just try to
8 talk to them myself.
9 Q. Did he suggest that you should
10 telephone somebody?
11 -- and this is on page 200 --
12 A. Yes, he told me that and he gave me
13 the phone number.
14 Q. Did he suggest who you should speak
16 I think there's a typographical error there.
17 A. With Kordic.
18 Q. Is that Dario Kordic?
19 A. Yes
20 Q. What position did Dario Kordic hold
21 at that time?
22 A. I think it was the president of the
24 Q. Did you subsequently speak to Dario
1 A. Yes, I did talk to him.
2 Q. What did you say to him?
3 A. I wanted that Ivica Santic and I
4 mediate so that we could calm
5 things down.
6 Q. What did he say to you?
7 A. If the commander of the Territorial
8 Defence surrendered -- the army
9 commander in Novi Travnik, and if
10 he surrendered the arms, then we
11 could talk.
12 Q. What army was this that he was
13 referring to?
14 A. The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
15 that was its name, the Territorial
16 Defence at that time."
17 Does that refresh your recollection of this
18 telephone conversation that you may have overheard
19 seven years ago, sir?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Kaknjo actually depicted events
22 accurately, didn't he?
23 A. More or less accurately, yes.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. The only thing is that he didn't add the
1 curse that was heard as Kordic was approaching the
3 Q. Was this a speakerphone that you were using,
4 or just a regular hand-held telephone?
5 A. In the receiver, Kaknjo was speaking, and I
6 was next to him, and I could hear the conversation.
7 Q. Was it a speakerphone or a hand-held
8 telephone, sir?
9 A. No, no, it was a hand-held telephone, the
11 Q. All right. Now, did it have a rotary dial,
12 or push-buttons, the more modern type?
13 A. It was a telephone without any loudspeakers,
14 but we heard it, nevertheless, because we were right
15 next to one another.
16 Q. But Mr. Kaknjo was actually doing the
17 talking, not you. Isn't that right?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. You didn't say a word on the telephone, did
21 A. No.
22 Q. So you were, as I understand it, trying to
23 listen in while Mr. Kaknjo was holding the speaker to
24 his ear and the microphone to his mouth; right?
25 A. Yes, quite.
1 Q. And you would agree with me, sir, would you
2 not, that he was in a better position to hear what was
3 being said than you were?
4 A. He was in a better position, but
5 nevertheless, I heard it all too.
6 Q. You never made any notes of that conversation
7 seven years ago, did you?
8 A. No. At the time this happened, these were
9 very hard times; and anyway, an hour or an hour and a
10 half later, we could have all been killed there. So it
11 wasn't really logical to expect us to make any notes.
12 Q. Well, you never made any notes about that
13 conversation, did you?
14 A. No. I didn't need to.
15 Q. So what you've recounted to the Trial Chamber
16 today is your memory --
17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, I think we can move
18 on. You've made the point.
19 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour.
20 Q. Now, as I understand it, there was actually
21 fighting that broke out at Ahmici on April the 19th and
22 20th of 1992, and one member of the armed forces on
23 either side was killed in that fighting, sir; is that
25 A. Possibly.
1 Q. Turning to your testimony, brief though it
2 was, on the attacks on Muslim businesses at the end of
3 1992, it's correct, is it not, that those attacks
4 occurred over a relatively short period of time?
5 A. In a relatively short period of time.
6 Q. But they occurred at the end of 1992, did
7 they not?
8 A. Somewhere towards the end of '92, yes.
9 Q. But there were no incidents in Stari Vitez,
10 where most of the Muslim population lived; isn't that
12 A. There were some incidents, but of a smaller
13 scale, because it was impossible to blow up Bosniak
14 property there.
15 Q. All right. In your January the 27th, 1997,
16 statement, sir, you made this statement, did you not?
17 Quote: "There were no such incidents in the Old Vitez,
18 which was predominantly Muslim in its population."
19 A. There was no destruction of property, no
20 incidents of that kind, but the holding of vehicles now
21 and then and the throwing of grenades. But there was
22 no destruction on the scale that we saw in the other
23 part of the town because it was impossible to carry out
24 such an operation in the old part of the city as it was
25 in the new part.
1 Q. You would concede that around this period of
2 time throughout 1992 and 1993, it was relatively easy
3 for people to gain possession of plastic explosives,
4 would you not?
5 A. For the HVO, there was no problem, as they
6 controlled the factories, the Princip factory.
7 Q. You said in your January the 27th, 1997
8 statement, sir, that, "There was a large
9 explosive-producing factory in Vitez, and it was easy
10 for people to get plastic explosives," didn't you?
11 A. Yes. This was a factory that was under the
12 complete control of the HVO.
13 Q. Well, most of the incidents that you
14 described actually coincided with the arrival of these
15 outsiders from either Eastern Herzegovina or Croatian,
16 that which you previously testified; isn't that right?
17 A. Yes. Roughly, there was a group up there.
18 Q. All right. Let me turn to April the 15th,
19 which you have covered, and April the 14th.
20 On April the 14th, do you remember hearing
21 any information about four HVO officers being kidnapped
22 just outside of Novi Travnik by the 7th Muslim Brigade
24 A. I was not aware of that at the time. I
25 didn't know about it at the time.
1 Q. Did you know, on April the 15th, that a
2 military HVO commander, I believe he was the commander
3 of the Jure Francetic Brigade, Zivko Totic, was
4 kidnapped by the 7th Muslim Brigade in the city of
6 A. No, I didn't know about that.
7 Q. You didn't know that Mr. Totic's bodyguards
8 were killed in a hail of gunfire on that day in Zenica?
9 A. I didn't. How could I know, when this was in
10 another municipality?
11 Q. You didn't see any TV broadcasts recording
12 that assassination and kidnapping?
13 A. No. I didn't know about that.
14 Q. Now, one day before the outbreak of fighting
15 in Vitez, and that is on the evening of April the 15th,
16 1993, you were actually in the village of Kruscica; is
17 that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That is about, and maybe I've got my
20 distances wrong here, but about one kilometre directly
21 south of the town of Vitez?
22 A. Yes, thereabouts; two kilometres perhaps.
23 Q. All right. That was the local Territorial
24 Defence headquarters; correct?
25 A. Yes, it was indeed a headquarters of the
2 Q. You actually had a hand-held radio in your
3 possession that evening, did you not?
4 A. No, we did not. The headquarters, there was
5 one there.
6 Q. All right. Over the hand-held radio, you
7 heard that there was fighting going on in Busovaca at
8 about 5.00 p.m. on April the 15th, 1993, didn't you?
9 A. Yes. As we were sitting in that room, we
10 were informed by one of the commanders that he was
11 receiving the news that the HVO was attacking Busovaca,
12 or rather the Bosniak population, with all their
14 Q. At page 6 of your statement in July of 1995,
15 you said that, "I heard on my hand-held radio,"
16 something. Are you saying that it wasn't your radio
17 but it was really the radio that belonged to the
18 military facility in Kruscica?
19 A. Yes. It was a radio -- rather a radio
20 station which belonged to the military, and if it says
21 as you say it does, then it's wrong.
22 Q. Very well. Now, just moving very briefly
23 through the details of the fighting here, you say that
24 about 100 HVO troops were involved in the fighting in
25 Vitez and Stari Vitez during the period April the 16th
1 to April the 19th, 1993; right?
2 A. The question was how many HVO soldiers were
3 attacking Old Vitez, but I can't say that. I presume
4 that HVO commanders would know that. But we could say
5 that there were 100 men participating in the attack.
6 Q. Yes. In fact on page 3 of your statement two
7 years ago, you actually said that about 100 HVO
8 soldiers were attacking Vitez and Stari Vitez, didn't
10 A. Well, yes, thereabouts. I think so. I guess
11 so. It is impossible to obtain accurate information.
12 Q. Very well. Against these 100 or so HVO
13 soldiers, there were about 150 Muslim soldiers, weren't
15 A. No.
16 Q. Well, let me just draw your attention to
17 page 3 of your statement a couple of years ago to the
18 Prosecutor. "The approximate number of soldiers who
19 were resisting the HVO attack in Stari Vitez was
20 approximately 150."
21 A. Yes, but a while ago you said "in the
22 counterattack", so I know what I'm talking about. This
23 was not a counterattack, it was defence. They were
24 only defending themselves. They did not engage in any
1 Q. But you agree with me 100 HVO soldiers on one
2 side, 150 Muslim soldiers on the other?
3 A. Yes. At first, in the early stage in that
4 part where I was on the line, there were about 20 men,
5 mostly members of the civilian police, and only later,
6 that is, in the days that followed, on the second,
7 third and fourth day, more men joined in the defence of
8 Stari Vitez. But at the early stage when the Croat
9 soldiers set on fire some parts of Stari Vitez or Old
10 Vitez, there were not that many. But later on, yes,
11 there may have been 150, perhaps a little more.
12 Q. Well, according to your statement, the front
13 lines in Vitez were pretty much established on April
14 the 16th to April the 19th, 1993, and remained
15 virtually unchanged for the next ten months; isn't that
17 A. Yes. After the HVO attack, the front line
18 was established, and, yes, true, it did not change
19 until the end of the war.
20 Q. You would agree with me that your troops were
21 told to fire at the HVO with every available weapon,
22 weren't they?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Well, your troops fought courageously, did
25 they not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. They fought as hard as they possibly could,
3 didn't they, sir?
4 A. Yes, and they had orders not to fire a single
5 bullet unless they were attacked by the HVO, and they
6 could do it only in case the HVO attacked.
7 Q. Well, the HVO did advance on April the 16th,
8 and you did fire bullets at the HVO and killed a lot of
9 them, didn't you?
10 A. They were not advancing, they were attacking,
11 and that is when the conflict occurred.
12 Q. But you would agree with me that you killed a
13 lot of HVO troops between April the 16th and April the
14 19th? Your troops, that is.
15 A. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't agree with you.
16 I do not think there were all that many. Naturally, it
17 is a pity when a single man dies, but I don't think
18 there were many of them, and it's relative too.
19 Q. Well, the president of the war presidency was
20 Dr. Mujezinovic, I believe, the Muslim war presidency,
21 correct, or the Bosniak war presidency?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know that he had actually traded over
24 100 HVO wounded soldiers on the 19th of April, 1993,
1 A. Possibly.
2 Q. In fact, you had your own rifle on April the
3 16th, didn't you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Let me just read to you a statement that you
6 made on page 2 of your January the 27th, 1997
7 statement. "I didn't have any weapons initially, but
8 later I got a rifle, as the owner of the rifle had
9 probably been hit."
10 So you did have a rifle at some point during
11 these hostilities, didn't you, sir?
12 A. Later on, yes, I was issued a rifle and it
13 wasn't hidden. In all likelihood, a member of the
14 Armija got killed, and that is when I got a rifle. So
15 at the outset, I didn't have a rifle because there
16 weren't any around, and then subsequently, after a
17 casualty in the army of B and H, then I could be given
18 a rifle.
19 Q. Now, after April the 19th of 1993, you would
20 agree with me that military combat operations were
21 going on in Vitez until the Washington Agreement was
22 actually signed sometime in early 1994; isn't that
24 A. Until 12.00 on the 25th of February, 1994.
25 Q. What you had was military forces on both
1 sides fighting each other, didn't you, sir; HVO on one
2 side and ABiH on the other?
3 A. In Vitez specifically, the BH army was
4 defending itself against the attack of the HVO. On
5 other parts of the front line across the municipality,
6 you will have to ask military experts or somebody else
7 and they will be able to tell you more about that. I
8 don't really know much about these events, and I'm
9 rather reluctant to talk about things that I do not
10 know enough about.
11 Q. All right. Now, you talked about members of
12 the civilian population in Stari Vitez being evacuated
13 with the help of the United Nations protection forces.
14 Do you remember that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The headquarters of UNPROFOR was, what, a
17 half a kilometre or so from the combat zone?
18 A. Perhaps slightly over that.
19 Q. Now, during the war a Croat house was burned
20 down because shots were being fired from it at your
21 soldiers; isn't that correct?
22 A. Yes. In my statement, I did mention a detail
23 of that nature.
24 Q. All right. Just to cover very briefly the
25 two flare-ups of fighting that Mr. Nice covered with
1 you in short order, the first occurred on July the 18th
2 of 1993; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I think that you said that absolutely no
5 Muslim soldiers were killed but many HVO soldiers were
6 killed. Is that right?
7 A. Wounded, yes, and a certain number of HVO
8 members were killed. Yes, you wanted me to say "a
9 large number", and I said that it was a relative --
10 Q. Well, in your statement two years ago, you
11 told the Prosecutor's representatives, "The HVO lost
12 many soldiers, while we did not lose a single soldier."
13 So I'm actually just using your words, sir. You would
14 agree with what you wrote two years ago?
15 A. Yes, yes. It will be, as far as I know,
16 about 12.
17 Q. Just before the outbreak of hostilities in
18 the early part of 1993, January, did you ever hear
19 about massacres of Croat civilians in the villages of
20 Dusina, Nezerovici and Lasva?
21 A. You keep pressing military matters on me, and
22 I'm really not familiar with that, and in particular
23 I'm not conversant with events in other
24 municipalities. Whether this is true or not, I really
25 do not know, and you should seek the answer from
1 somebody else who is more knowledgeable about these
3 Q. I wasn't actually seeking a military opinion
4 from you. I was just asking, sir, whether you, as a
5 member of your community --
6 A. Well, I did not hear about that.
7 Q. Did you ever hear that the HVO commander in
8 those villages, Commander Zvonko, had been shot 12
9 times in the face and arms with automatic weapons and
10 had his heart cut out of his body by elements of the
11 7th Muslim Brigade?
12 A. No, I don't know about that.
13 Q. Did you ever hear about the massacre of Croat
14 civilians at the village of --
15 JUDGE MAY: Well, the witness has dealt with
16 these matters. He said he didn't hear of them.
17 MR. SAYERS: I'll move on, Your Honour. I
18 just have a few clean-up questions.
19 Q. You were never actually arrested on April the
20 16th, were you? 1993, that is.
21 A. Fortunately not. No, I wasn't.
22 Q. You remained in Stari Vitez with some
23 UNPROFOR-sponsored excursions from April the 16th,
24 1993, to February the 24th, 1994; right?
25 A. Between the 15th of April in the evening
1 until the summer of 1994, throughout all the time I was
2 in Stari Vitez.
3 MR. SAYERS: If I may have two seconds to
4 confer with Mr. Stein. I hope I haven't been too
5 extravagant with my time estimate. I think I'm at the
6 end of my questioning, Your Honours.
7 Yes, I do have one question.
8 Q. Did you investigate the incident on June the
9 10th of 1993 where eight Croat children playing a game
10 were killed by a grenade thrown from Stari Vitez close
11 to the house of Hakija Cengic?
12 A. No, I did not investigate that or very many
13 other details, but I did hear that an incident of that
14 kind took place. I talked to people about that, but I
15 do not really know anything about the whole incident.
16 Q. What kinds of investigations were carried out
17 into that situation, sir, with eight small children
18 killed by a grenade; do you know?
19 A. No, I don't, because Stari Vitez was blocked
20 off, it was surrounded, and it is quite possible that
21 something was done but in the part of the territory
22 controlled by the army of B and H. In Vitez, we simply
23 could know nothing about it. We had nothing to do with
24 it and could not follow these things, and I was in
25 Stari Vitez so I simply cannot know. I had no ways of
1 knowing what was going on outside Stari Vitez.
2 Q. When that incident occurred, you were still
3 the president of the SDA, the Party for Democratic
5 A. Yes. It was wartime.
6 Q. You didn't feel that you had any
7 responsibility to investigate that incident, I take it,
9 A. Well, it is a relative matter, whether
10 somebody is responsible or not. To begin with, I don't
11 know how it happened and whether it happened at all. I
12 never gave orders to anyone to fire or to throw
13 grenades from either side.
14 As a man, as a human being, of course, I can
15 condemn that incident, and I think that the one who did
16 it, if he did it, should be called to account. I think
17 he should be punished for that. That is, as a human
18 being, I can condemn that, but I had no say in the
19 matter. I could not either prevent it or not prevent
20 it because I, myself, was in association when I and my
21 family could be hit by a grenade any time.
22 MR. SAYERS: Mr. Kajmovic, thank you very
23 much. I have no further questions, unless the Trial
24 Chamber has any for me.
25 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Thank you,
1 Mr. President.
2 Mr. Kajmovic, I'm Bozidar Kovacic. I'm
3 Defence counsel with my colleague, Mr. Mikulicic, and
4 I'm representing Mr. Cerkez here.
5 I also have several questions for you, and I
6 should like to kindly ask you, because of the
7 interpreters, and the two of us speak the same
8 language, we can easily understand one another, but
9 will you please try to make a break or wait, and I
10 shall also endeavour to make a break, because otherwise
11 we can run into major trouble. Nobody understands what
12 we are talking about, and that's that.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:
14 Q. So, Mr. Kajmovic, will you please tell us,
15 briefly only, did you know my client's family, Mario
16 Cerkez's family, that is, prior to the fighting, prior
17 to the conflict in Vitez; did you know them?
18 A. I heard about them, but not personally.
19 Q. So you didn't know the mother or father?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you have any common friends with Mario
23 A. No.
24 Q. You didn't have any friends in common?
25 A. Possibly there were some, but I don't
2 Q. But do you remember, since his mother worked
3 at the post office, she was a clerk in the post office,
4 who usually know people in such small places?
5 A. Perhaps I knew him by sight, but otherwise I
7 Q. Will you please --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel slow down,
10 MR. KOVACIC:
11 Q. I didn't really understand with regard to --
12 JUDGE MAY: Please slow down.
13 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I apologise.
14 Q. My question, as regards your master's thesis,
15 I'm not sure I understood you quite well.
16 Last year, when you testified in the Blaskic
17 case, it was announced that in June you would be
18 defending the thesis?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that true?
21 A. It is.
22 Q. On Friday, my learned friend from the
23 Prosecution said that you still needed an oral
24 examination, that was all that was left that you had to
25 do, and then you yourself said that you still had to do
1 things in regard with this thesis. I'm not sure.
2 A. Yes. May I explain it?
3 Q. Yes. Will you please tell us?
4 A. Well, Mirko Pejanovic is my tutor, and after
5 I completed my thesis, I gave it to him and he had some
6 comments to make. He wanted me to supplement my work
7 with two more issues. One was the referendum conducted
8 on the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and secondly
9 to explain in more detail the elections of '91, because
10 I touched only briefly upon it in my work, and that I
11 had to add something about the matters and purposes for
12 my instigating the first part of my paper. He had no
13 other comments, and I'm about to finish this. Then
14 when it is decided, then I shall do it. I thought
15 indeed that I would finish it by June, but
16 unfortunately I was also very busy and had no time to
17 do it.
18 Then Pejanovic also spent a lot of time going
19 through my paper, and so that is why it had to be
21 Q. Thank you very much. Now I understand.
22 Before the war broke out in
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, what was your citizenship?
24 A. Well, you should know that all the citizens
25 of the former SFRY had the nationality or the
1 citizenship of that State.
2 Q. Right. But has anything changed in this
3 regard after the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina became
4 a sovereign State in April of 1992?
5 A. Yes, of course it changed. I am referring to
6 myself. I'm now a national of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
7 Q. So you first acquired the republican
8 citizenship only after the sovereignty of '92?
9 A. Well, the same holds true of the Slovenians,
10 the Croats, and everybody else.
11 Q. Thank you. Tell us, have you ever heard that
12 pursuant to the laws of the former Yugoslavia, the
13 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that under
14 its laws, all citizens enjoyed first the republican
15 nationality and then only the [indiscernible]
16 nationality deriving from it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You heard about it?
19 A. Yes, I heard something about it, but since I
20 have no legal training, I didn't go into details.
21 Q. But then nothing has changed. You continued
22 as a national of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
23 A. Yes. First of all, a national of Bosnia and
24 then of Yugoslavia.
25 Q. Right, thank you. Mr. Kajmovic, are you a
1 practising believer?
2 A. Well, rather "No" than "Yes."
3 Q. But are you practising?
4 A. Well, that is why I said so. I don't,
5 really. I'm not really practising. I don't really
6 observe it, in particular, apart from some religious
7 holidays. It's more the tradition that I try to
9 Q. I see. Thank you very much.
10 Mr. Kajmovic, a while ago Mr. Sayers asked
11 you about some things, and it reminded me. I think
12 that it was on no less than two occasions during the
13 examination, you said, "I was not informed about events
14 or developments in other municipalities," and even at
15 some point you said, "I don't know much about what was
16 going on in the municipality of Vitez beyond Stari
17 Vitez, outside Stari Vitez, where I was between the
18 15th of April, 1992, until the summer of 1994."
19 A. Yes. During that period of time, I was not
20 informed about what was going on outside Stari Vitez.
21 Q. But tell me why. What was the trouble? Why
22 weren't you informed?
23 A. Well, the problem was that we simply could
24 not leave Stari Vitez.
25 Q. The usual mass media, television, radio,
1 newspapers --
2 A. No, no, no. There was no electricity, so
3 that people tried to make some generating stations and
4 trying to use transistors and things, but it was
5 impossible. I mean some people managed, but we on the
6 front line, we simply had no electricity, so I had no
7 way of listening to the media.
8 Q. So can we agree then it was the
9 inaccessibility of the information or, rather, the
10 inaccessibility of public information is why you were
11 uninformed, that you were blocked off from information?
12 A. Well, the blockade was in the first place
13 military. I mean the information can be obtained
14 unless you're militarily blocked, and I simply could
15 not gain access to any source of information.
16 Q. So in other words, you had no access to
17 sources of information or to any media?
18 A. Well, no, I didn't.
19 Q. Do you think that, in general terms, the
20 situation in the Vitez municipality during that wartime
21 was good or better or significantly better for other
22 citizens, I mean all of its inhabitants?
23 A. Well, for us in Stari Vitez, and there were
24 about 1.200 people there, we really had it very, very
25 hard, terribly hard. In other areas, later on when it
1 was all over, I know that people had all sorts of
2 problems with regard to food, health care, power supply
3 and so on and so forth. I believe even in that part of
4 Vitez which was controlled by the HVO, I don't think
5 they had it much easier either, because they also had
6 problems with the water supply and --
7 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, let's not dwell on this. It is
8 common knowledge that they had problems, but what I'm
9 interested in is whether those outside Stari Vitez were
10 in a much better situation or in a worse situation as
11 regards media, public information.
12 A. Well, they were in a slightly better
14 Q. Slightly better, you say. Thank you.
15 In your statement of 1995 for the
16 investigators, at some point you spoke about -- just a
17 moment. I'll try to cut this short, if possible.
18 At some point, you mentioned a meeting held
19 in the post office building, and you said that
20 Mr. Sefkija Dzidic was there, he was the commander of
21 the Territorial Defence, Mr. Faud Kaknjo, the president
22 of the executive board, Mr. Ivica Santic, the municipal
23 mayor, Mr. Pero Skopljak, you, and Mario Cerkez. What
24 was that period of time? It is not quite clear from
25 this fragment.
1 A. Yes. This was the time when there were
2 several of those ultimatums, so it was roughly after
3 the 20th of October, 1992, until the -- between the
4 20th of October and the 16th of April, '93.
5 Several of those ultimatums were made during
6 that period of time, and this was one of those
7 meetings, and that Pero said that might -- that those
8 who were stronger would rule this area and so on and so
10 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, just wait a moment. I'll try
11 to take you there by shortcut first.
12 So that was sometime in late '92 until the
13 fighting broke out in '93?
14 A. Yes, roughly that time.
15 Q. Tell me, are you sure that Mario Cerkez was
16 present at that meeting?
17 A. As far as I can recollect now, I think he
19 Q. I'm asking you that because there were
20 several meetings and encounters, and that is why I'm
21 checking about this meeting. Do you remember him
22 saying anything, if he was present? Did he take an
23 active part in the meeting?
24 A. No, he didn't participate much in the debate
25 at that meeting in the post office. Pero Skopljak
1 spoke more than he did at that meeting.
2 Q. In connection with this event, you said that
3 Mr. Cerkez was some sort of a commander at that time in
5 A. Yes, that he was most probably the commander
6 of the Vitez Brigade.
7 Q. Do you know when the Vitez Brigade was
9 A. No, I don't know those details. I'm not
10 familiar with the military structures in detail.
11 Q. In view of the fact that in 1992 you were a
12 member of the crisis staff, and that there were a
13 series of meetings and contacts between the two sides,
14 could you at least tell us whether the Vitez Brigade
15 existed in the course of 1992 at all?
16 A. I think it did.
17 Q. You think it had been founded in 1992?
18 A. Yes, it certainly existed.
19 Q. Let me remind you, do you remember the period
20 when there was a joint inter-municipality brigade
21 called Stjepan Tomasevic?
22 A. Are you referring to HVO members of Vitez and
23 Novi Travnik?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Such information did reach me, and in fact
1 that the commander of that brigade was Mario Cerkez.
2 But I really don't know the details, and I think it
3 would be better for you to get that information from
4 someone else.
5 Q. Very well, then, we can agree that you do not
6 know exactly whether Cerkez was a commander in 1992 and
7 which units?
8 A. I really do know very little about the
9 military units. What reached me may have been correct
10 or not. But even that was not reliable. I really
11 don't think that it was reliable, as far as the
12 military is concerned, because I was more involved in
13 political activities. So please don't insist, because
14 I'll really not sufficiently familiar with those
16 Q. Very well. Thank you.
17 Mr. Kajmovic, at one point in your testimony,
18 you said that there were few moderates among the Croats
19 -- I think those were your words -- and that as an
20 example, you mentioned Mr. Boro Jozic.
21 A. No.
22 Q. I apologise: You mentioned Ivan Budimir.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did Budimir -- was he well seen, was he
1 A. Yes, he was a man who was for a time the
2 coach of the football club, and who, for a brief
3 period, worked as a teacher of physical education in
4 the secondary school centre, and for a time I think he
5 was even commander of the military police in Vitez.
6 But he really is a man of tolerance, without any
7 extremist views.
8 Q. Could one say that he was man of credibility?
9 A. Yes, as far as the Bosniak side is concerned,
10 we trusted him.
11 Q. Does that mean that the Croatian side didn't?
12 A. I think they did, up to a point, up to a
13 certain period of time.
14 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, you also said at the time that
15 he was killed by the HVO; that was the first I heard of
17 A. Yes, I assumed that that was done, though I
18 do not have any hard evidence.
19 Q. So no evidence?
20 A. Only a conversation with Ivica Santic, and I
21 must tell you quite frankly that I don't believe what
22 he said, because I asked him.
23 Q. So can it be said that these were rumours
24 that you heard?
25 A. I had a concrete conversation with Ivica
1 Santic, and he explained to me briefly what had
2 happened, but I'm afraid I cannot believe in that
3 version of events.
4 Q. May I ask you, then, the following -- will
5 you just answer "Yes" or "No"?
6 A. Yes, you can.
7 Q. Did Santic tell you that he had heard
8 something from somebody else?
9 A. No, I do not recall that. I don't remember
10 him saying anything to that effect.
11 Q. Very well. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, it's now 5 past
13 4.00. Are you going to be very much longer with this
15 MR. KOVACIC: Could you give me just two
17 JUDGE MAY: If you can finish the examination
18 in ten minutes, no doubt we would be prepared to sit
19 for that.
20 MR. KOVACIC: No, sir, I cannot be so fast.
21 It's difficult to me to make any forecast, because my
22 colleague, Mr. Sayers, took some parts of it. Still,
23 some pieces are remaining, and I will need to
24 reconsider everything, but I guess -- an hour and a
25 half, up to two hours max, I could have it.
1 JUDGE MAY: I think two hours is more than
2 enough. I hope you can do it in an hour.
3 MR. KOVACIC: That's very reasonable for me.
4 Should we finish now?
5 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now.
6 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, sir.
7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kajmovic, would you be back
8 tomorrow morning, please, at 9.45, and your testimony
9 will be finished then.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
11 4.05 p.m., to be reconvened on
12 Tuesday, the 15th day of June, 1999,
13 at 9.45 a.m.