Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6481

1 Monday, 13th September, 1999

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 10.46 a.m.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let's have Dr. Allcock.

5 MR. NICE: Incidentally, the reason I have

6 advanced another witness, possibly, in place of Damon

7 was because of the non-availability of the witness I

8 told you about who was on and off right up until Friday

9 afternoon, I think.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we ought to be in open

12 session now.

13 Dr. Allcock, thank you for coming back. You

14 are, of course, under the solemn declaration.

15 MR. NICE: I don't know whether the witness

16 does know by any means what the attitude of the Defence

17 is, but he's still at the moment under

18 cross-examination, and it's for them to make their

19 position clear.

20 JUDGE MAY: No further cross-examination? Is

21 that the position?

22 MR. STEIN: That's correct, sir.

23 MR. NICE: Can the witness please have four

24 exhibits, 1669, 1670, 1671, and 1673.

25 May the witness have copies as well, please.

Page 6482


2 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

3 Q. Can you look at 1669 first, please, a

4 reference book bulletin? It's not that one; it's

5 another document.

6 A. Oh, yes, right, yes.

7 Q. This is something called "Reference Books

8 Bulletin." Just tell us what that is, if you can.

9 A. Well, I understand that it's a journal that

10 circulates principally among librarians which evaluates

11 the material which is likely to be coming their way and

12 specialises in reference books rather than publications

13 more generally.

14 Q. And that speaks of the conflict in Yugoslavia

15 which I have in my hand and which is available --

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. -- but it says of that, which is a book

18 edited by you and others, that it's "an outstanding

19 reference resource in which a wide array of entries

20 deepen our knowledge of a vital contemporary issue."

21 It goes on to deal with how the book is arranged, and

22 is praiseworthy of it.

23 A. It does indeed. I was very gratified to see

24 that.

25 Q. Next document, 1670. Can you tell us from

Page 6483

1 where this comes?

2 A. Well, yes, this is the material prepared by

3 the publisher of my forthcoming book. Incidentally,

4 that is already somewhat out of date, in that the

5 publisher has arranged for a joint publication with

6 Columbia University Press, so that that's the

7 publisher's preliminary notice.

8 Q. And the notice speaks of your book,

9 "Explaining Yugoslavia": "Contradictory images are

10 often presented to us of the lands which were once

11 Yugoslavia. Nothing ever changes," and so on. Next

12 paragraph: "The central claim of this book is that

13 substantial historical discontinuities can be

14 documented in the history of the Balkans, but these are

15 not those captured by reference to age-old hatreds,

16 revolution, nor the clash of civilisations. The

17 patterns of continuity revealed by sociological theory

18 are processes of modernisation and globalisation, and

19 the region is involved in the same processes of

20 development upon which we ourselves are embarked."

21 THE INTERPRETER: We ask you to slow down,

22 please.

23 MR. NICE: Sorry.

24 Q. The third document, I have to ask you for

25 what it is, because --

Page 6484

1 A. How is this numbered?

2 Q. 1671; do you have that?

3 A. Oh, right, yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us, please, what 1671 is?

5 Because you having been a witness, we haven't been able

6 to talk to you, and it may be I'll withdraw it, but can

7 you tell us what it is before I withdraw it?

8 A. Yes. In the process of producing a

9 substantial academic work, it's quite normal for

10 authors to circulate copies of their material to

11 respected and appropriately qualified colleagues for

12 comment before publication. Naturally the publishers

13 do this, but we also do this independently, on our own

14 initiative. And I sent -- this refers, in fact, it's a

15 response to the text of the book which has already been

16 drawn to your attention, "Explaining Yugoslavia." I

17 sent a copy of that to one of the members of the staff

18 of the American University in Bulgaria, Professor

19 Ivelin Sardamov, for his comment, and the e-mail

20 message which you have in front of you consists of part

21 of his critical response to my text.

22 The reason it's only a part of his response,

23 incidentally, is that the later part of it got into

24 fairly protracted discussion of one particular point of

25 detail, and it didn't seem to me to be particularly

Page 6485

1 relevant.

2 Q. If anybody wants it, you are prepared to

3 provide it?

4 A. Oh, of course, yes.

5 Q. Well, again, that's a very flattering

6 review.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to read

8 these out in detail, for want of time. If the doctor's

9 credentials come to be put in issue at a later stage,

10 we can look at them then in more detail.

11 Q. Incidentally, I'm being pressed to ask you

12 just to tell us that the review we looked at before,

13 that's 1670, which begins, "This is a remarkable book,"

14 was reviewed by somebody called Djilas. Who is he?

15 A. Djilas. Aleksa Djilas is a well-known

16 political scientist. He is actually the son of Milovan

17 Djilas, a well-known politician and dissident in the

18 former Yugoslavia, but who has since made a career for

19 himself as an academic specialist on the region. He is

20 the author of at least three very substantial

21 historical studies of the former Yugoslavia, and my

22 text was sent to him by the publisher as an independent

23 reviewer of the kind to which I've already referred.

24 Q. Thank you very much. The last document,

25 1673, is simply three pages to remind the Court of what

Page 6486

1 the original exhibit, the book, is and amounts to,

2 "Conflict in the Former Yugoslavia," which we have

3 already seen a review, and includes a forward by Martin

4 Bell.

5 A. Could I just make one extremely brief comment

6 on that, to the extent that the hardback edition of

7 that work sold out within three months. It's obviously

8 been quite well received.

9 Q. You were asked a number of questions about

10 your expertise and experience, with various comments on

11 tourism as a subject, and observations as to whether

12 you were doing it while you were travelling around the

13 country. Is tourism a serious subject for study? How

14 does it rank as an event in the world, or as a business

15 or an industry?

16 A. It's extremely important. I've heard it said

17 that tourism is now the world's largest industry in

18 terms of the number of people it employs. It certainly

19 is one of the largest aspects of international trade.

20 It's certainly taken seriously by all academic

21 disciplines. I, myself, participate in a study group

22 of the International Sociological Association, which is

23 devoted to the study of tourism, and you'd find similar

24 study groups in organisations of economists or other

25 social scientists.

Page 6487

1 Q. You were then asked a number of questions

2 about sociology and the range of topics that sociology

3 covers or can cover. Is there anything unusual or

4 overbroad about the range of topics that you, in your

5 history as a sociologist, have had to cover? Or is

6 that par for the course?

7 A. Well, perhaps I'm slightly broader than most

8 sociologists in my coverage. I do remember the

9 previous encounter that ranged over that material, and

10 it struck me that there was an acute confusion

11 underlying part of that questioning between specific

12 areas of sociological expertise, general concepts that

13 might be expected to be the stock in trade of any

14 sociologist and adjacent disciplines.

15 As I think I mentioned on that occasion, I

16 have had to range fairly widely in my work over

17 Yugoslavia because there are so few social scientists,

18 and in particular so few sociologists, who have taken

19 an interest in the area. But I don't think that,

20 bearing in mind that we're talking about a career of 30

21 years here, that I've been particularly promiscuous in

22 my academic attention.

23 Q. Which leads me to my second-to-last question,

24 or my last question before I come to one last short

25 topic. The last question is this: In the field in

Page 6488

1 which you are dealing, are there those whose

2 specialisation, if they are specialists, is much more

3 narrowly focused, or is the body of people dealing with

4 this topic qualified broadly in the areas in which you

5 are qualified? Help us on that.

6 A. Individuals do vary enormously in how they

7 construct their own specialism. I can think, for

8 example, of a colleague in Britain, Saul Estrin, whose

9 focus is very narrowly econometric, and at the other

10 extreme you would find somebody like the American

11 specialist, Denison Rusinow, who I suppose you would

12 say his range of interest is as broad as my own.

13 Individuals do have to carve out their own

14 academic careers and do so on the basis of a variety of

15 opportunities. I think that perhaps I tend to the

16 broad end of the spectrum because the British academic

17 community, unlike the American academic community, is

18 rather smaller, and therefore, in order to serve the

19 range of interests, both at the teaching and research

20 level, we tend to have to be a little bit more generous

21 in our attentions than our American colleagues,

22 perhaps.

23 Q. And you said accepted when Judge Bennouna

24 asked you whether you were a generalist, that in the

25 way that that discussion was being explored, that you

Page 6489

1 were?

2 A. Oh, I think that's fair enough, yes.

3 Q. Does that in any way invalidate, in your

4 judgement, the ability of you or anybody similarly

5 qualified to express an opinion on these topics?

6 A. No. I think it's important to realise that

7 social science, as with all the sciences, there are

8 different functions involved. There are those whose

9 primary task is to advance our knowledge on quite

10 specific points and who legitimately make a career

11 pursuing a really rather narrowly focused range of

12 issues. There is also, within any discipline, an

13 important function to be served by those who are able

14 to synthesise the work of colleagues who choose to take

15 that more focused approach. That's an important

16 component of the discipline, that synthesising

17 function. I have seen my role, in large measure, as --

18 although not exclusively -- as working in that

19 generalising mode. Certainly recently, when I was

20 working on tourism and agriculture, I was contributing

21 rather more in the specialised mode.

22 Q. Last topic. You were asked about racism by

23 Mr. Stein raising with you whether that was something

24 that you covered, and I want to deal with one issue of

25 racism with you, please. Will you take your report at

Page 6490

1 Appendix 6.

2 A. Yes. Okay.

3 Q. You make some comments here about someone

4 called Stjepan Mestrovic. As a matter of fact, has he

5 had access to your report?

6 A. No. Well, I certainly haven't sent him a

7 copy.

8 Q. Just tell us, in summary, what's contained

9 here about him, in case it becomes of value later.

10 A. Well, the interest of this, and this is why

11 it's in an appendix rather than the main body of the

12 report, the reason for drawing this material to the

13 attention of the Court is to illustrate the kind of

14 ways in which the discussion about the nature and

15 relationship between ethnic groups in the region had

16 tended to become focused. I wouldn't like this to be

17 thought of as a comment on my part as saying that

18 Stjepan Mestrovic is a racist, but it's an unfortunate

19 consequence, I think, of the resurrection of the work

20 of people like Tomasic, that they tend to lean in the

21 direction of assuming that groups of people have

22 permanent and indelible characteristics. That kind of

23 discourse, I think, does point us in the direction of

24 racist discourse.

25 Q. Has the effect, as you suggest at the end of

Page 6491

1 the first paragraph, as exploiting those who wish to

2 find -- or leads to the potential exploitation by those

3 who wish to find academic justification for extreme

4 political views?

5 A. Yes. This is one of the risks of any kind of

6 academic work, that you have no control over how your

7 work is received. I think this is probably true of

8 Mestrovic as well, but I don't think he sets out to

9 stimulate racist attitudes. But the way in which this

10 work has been received and read -- it often happens. I

11 mean, Samuel Huntington's work on the clash of

12 civilisations has had a similar exploitation, similar

13 misuse in the region by people trying to prove that

14 there are necessary and inevitable conflicts between

15 different ethnic groups.

16 Q. Can such views, for example, find a place in

17 the thinking and works of somebody like Valenta?

18 A. I would have thought so, yes.

19 MR. NICE: That's all I ask.

20 JUDGE MAY: Thank you, Dr. Allcock, for

21 having come. You are released.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE MAY: We will take 30 minutes.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.13 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.46 a.m.

Page 6492

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the

2 solemn declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

5 truth.

6 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a seat.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:

10 Q. You are Fuad Zeco, are you not, born in Breza

11 on the 6th of July, 1932?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You graduated as a veterinarian, you worked

14 as a veterinarian, and you are now retired.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. After your veterinary studies, you were

17 appointed, in 1968, as director of the veterinarian

18 station of the Vitez municipality, were you not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The zone of Vitez was a rural area and, as

21 such, it had a large number of livestock.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. During your veterinarian activities, you

24 moved around a great deal and you met a lot of people,

25 did you not?

Page 6493

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You lived in Vitez, close to your place of

3 work, the veterinarian centre, in a part of Vitez

4 called Rijeka.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The majority of the population of this area

7 were Croat by nationality.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Zeco, you were never engaged in politics

10 in your life and you were never a member of any

11 political party, were you?

12 A. No, I was not.

13 Q. I should like to ask you to talk to us a

14 little about the relations between the Croats and

15 Muslims in Vitez.

16 Those relations were good and harmonious, up

17 to the point when the HVO was established in Vitez;

18 isn't that so?

19 A. Yes, very good, the relations were.

20 Q. The period we are talking about when this

21 change occurred is the spring of 1992.

22 A. Yes. I was thinking of the period up to 1992

23 when relations were excellent, and after the appearance

24 of the HVO in 1992, the relations started to change for

25 the worse.

Page 6494

1 Q. The HVO in Vitez, once established, little by

2 little took over power; would you agree with that

3 statement?

4 A. The procedure that occurred following the

5 emergence of the HVO was one that I could not accept,

6 and the situation that developed was unacceptable to

7 me.

8 Q. You noted that the HVO started setting up

9 patrols and checkpoints in the town and on the roads.

10 A. There were patrols within the territory of

11 Vitez municipality, in the villages, and also in the

12 town of Vitez itself.

13 Q. The persons who were checked at these

14 checkpoints were exclusively Muslims, were they not?

15 A. The Muslims were those who were exclusively

16 subject to checks and searches by members of the HVO.

17 Q. The HVO was able to identify people as

18 Muslims. How did they know what ethnic group people

19 belonged to when they checked them at these

20 checkpoints?

21 A. Well, these were more or less local people.

22 They asked people to give their names, and if they were

23 Muslim, they would be checked, interrogated, and so

24 on. The people who were patrolling on the part of the

25 HVO knew me well. I was well-known as a veterinarian

Page 6495

1 in the area. So they all knew me and they knew who I

2 was.

3 Q. So you yourself, you personally were the

4 subject of control?

5 A. Yes, on a number of occasions. I was

6 checked; I was asked where I was going, why I was going

7 there. Though it was well-known why I had to pass, but

8 still they checked me, asked me whether I was carrying

9 a weapon, and what the purpose of my trip was, though

10 it was quite clear that I was going to do my job.

11 Q. As regards the personnel working in municipal

12 institutions, Mr. Zeco, would it be true to say that at

13 a certain point in time in 1992, they were asked to

14 sign a document recognising the power of the HVO, an

15 act of loyalty towards the Croatian Community of

16 Herceg-Bosna?

17 A. I was in close and frequent contact with

18 representatives of the authorities. I also

19 collaborated with those institutions so that I knew

20 most of the people employed in the municipal bodies. I

21 knew almost all of them, both Croats and Muslims.

22 Among the people working in the municipal

23 authorities was my wife, who worked in the cadastre of

24 the municipality, and one day she came home very

25 excited and disturbed, telling me that she had been

Page 6496

1 asked to sign a document of loyalty to the newly formed

2 municipal body, that is, the Croatian Community of

3 Herceg-Bosna, and if she failed to sign, she would be

4 dismissed; she would lose her job. This happened to

5 all the employees who were Muslims or of Bosniak

6 nationality employed in the municipal bodies of

7 authority.

8 Q. You also told us that the Croatian flag, the

9 flag of Herceg-Bosna had been hoisted at the

10 municipality building.

11 A. Yes, I remember that well. I think it was in

12 June 1992 when this flag was hoisted of the Croatian

13 state and the flag of Herceg-Bosna. The same flag was

14 raised at the building of the Secretariat of the

15 Interior, known as the SUP.

16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Regarding

17 this particular question, can one conclude from the

18 answer of the witness that there were two flags, the

19 flag of the Herceg-Bosna community and the Croatian

20 flag, the flag of the Croatian state?

21 A. Yes.


23 Q. Because of all these facts that you have just

24 described to us, the Muslim community of Vitez and the

25 leadership of the local Muslim intelligentsia started

Page 6497

1 to organise themselves, and that is how a committee for

2 the coordination of the protection of Muslim interests

3 was established in July of 1992; is that correct,

4 Mr. Zeco?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You yourself were appointed a member of this

7 coordination committee in charge of the sector of

8 agriculture, livestock production, and also civil

9 defence matters because you had some training in civil

10 defence.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Certain members of that committee belonged to

13 political parties and others did not, like yourself.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Zeco, you knew somebody called Anto

16 Valenta, who was an ideologue with considerable

17 influence within the HVO, and you had discussions with

18 this gentleman. Could you briefly report to us the

19 substance of those discussions?

20 A. I would frequently come across Mr. Anto

21 Valenta. My wife, as I have just said, worked in the

22 department for property and the cadastre; she's a

23 surveyor by training. Frequently, when I went to the

24 municipal building, I would drop in to see my wife,

25 where I would also meet with Mr. Anto Valenta, who was

Page 6498

1 looking for geographic maps in the cadastre. Since we

2 knew each other, he even said to me, "Look, this is how

3 we should deal with the question of maps, so that

4 people belonging to one ethnic group should organise

5 themselves and live as a people in a certain

6 territory," and we had discussions along those lines.

7 When I said, "What about life here in this

8 area? We've all been living here together" but he kept

9 insisting on his theory, explaining that each nation

10 should live in a particular area and that that is how

11 we should organise ourselves. In those days, I found

12 this most surprising, and I was not pleased at all.

13 Q. This same gentleman, during those

14 discussions, told you that, in his view, the Croats do

15 not have sufficient positions of importance in the

16 municipal government and that this should change.

17 A. Exactly. That is what he said. He said that

18 Croats up till then had not been adequately represented

19 and did not have the influence that they should have;

20 however, I didn't agree with him on that point, and we

21 would have disputes over that point.

22 Q. Anto Valenta appeared very regularly on

23 Vitez, Busovaca, and Kiseljak television.

24 A. Yes. Very, very frequently, he would be seen

25 on the screens of local TV stations.

Page 6499

1 Q. Also with him on the screen, there was often

2 Ignac Kostroman, Tihomir Blaskic, and the accused,

3 Dario Kordic.

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Did you know personally the family of the

6 accused, Dario Kordic, and especially the father, Pero

7 Kordic, who was a veterinarian, like you, but in

8 Busovaca?

9 A. Yes. With Mr. Pero Kordic, Dario Kordic's

10 father, I was a close friend and also his mother,

11 Rozika. We were true friends and we frequently visited

12 one another, especially on special festive occasions.

13 I was a guest in their home frequently for Christmas

14 and Easter, and Dario Kordic's parents were guests in

15 my home during Bajram and other such festivities.

16 Q. You personally were able to see that the

17 Kordic family was an extremely religious family and

18 that the father, Pero Kordic, was very active in

19 religious organisations.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The last time that you spoke to Dario

22 Kordic's father, Pero Kordic, was in January 1993 when

23 there was a conflict going on in the area of Busovaca,

24 and you telephoned Dario Kordic's father. Could you

25 tell us what Mr. Pero Kordic told you on that occasion?

Page 6500

1 A. I had a great deal of respect and

2 appreciation for the religious feelings of my friend,

3 Mr. Pero Kordic, and we were genuinely close friends,

4 so that after the events in Busovaca in January 1993,

5 shortly after that, out of curiosity, I called up my

6 friend Pero on the phone and I asked him -- I remember

7 it very well; it was a Saturday -- and I asked him,

8 "Colleague Pero, what's new in Busovaca?" and his

9 answer was, "All kinds of things. There's livestock,

10 there's everything, but there are no Muslims."

11 As a friend, I was truly shocked and

12 surprised by this statement, and I said, "Pero, that

13 is, indeed, regrettable, that you should say this to me

14 as your friend, a Muslim, that you could say something

15 like that to me," and since then, I never met or had

16 any contact again with my friend, Pero Kordic.

17 Q. When you made that remark to your friend,

18 Pero Kordic, what was his answer?

19 A. He said that that was how things stood and

20 that that was what it was like.

21 Q. Now let us move on to another period,

22 Mr. Zeco.

23 We reached the month of October 1992, and in

24 October 1992, you personally saw trucks and cars of HVO

25 armed soldiers who were going in the direction of Novi

Page 6501

1 Travnik, coming from Busovaca, and who were trying to

2 pass through Vitez.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In that same period, you attended a meeting

5 of the coordination committee for the protection of

6 Muslims, and the local Muslim commander, Sefkija

7 Dzidic, told you that the BiH army had decided to set

8 up checkpoints in Ahmici and Stara Bila, to prevent the

9 conflict spreading from Busovaca.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The HVO issued an ultimatum for the removal

12 of those checkpoints?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Still within that same time frame, the HVO

15 attacked the BH army headquarters in Vitez?

16 A. Yes, it did, yes.

17 Q. This headquarters had to move, did it not, as

18 a result?

19 A. Yes, it did. As the result of the attack by

20 the HVO units, the headquarters of the army, which was

21 located in the building of the secondary school centre,

22 had to be moved to Stari Vitez.

23 Q. The logistics centre was also attacked at

24 that time, was it not?

25 A. Yes, in the immediate vicinity of the army

Page 6502

1 headquarters was where the logistics headquarters was

2 located, in a private house, the centre of the army in

3 Vitez. A very close associate of mine, Ahmic Cazim,

4 was there, and the members of the HVO units physically

5 attacked him, and they also launched an attack on that

6 logistics headquarters belonging to the army.

7 Q. During the last week of this same month of

8 October in 1992, Mr. Zeco, you, yourself, were

9 physically attacked by a group of HVO soldiers wearing

10 camouflage uniforms in the area of Krizancevo Selo,

11 were you not?

12 A. Yes. Throughout that time, I did my

13 professional duties, and I was called out to Krizancevo

14 Selo to intervene professionally. On my return from

15 Krizancevo Selo, at the entrance to the village, on the

16 main road through Vitez, that part of the road is very

17 narrow, and you could only have one vehicle moving in

18 one direction.

19 I was in my own vehicle moving along the

20 road. Behind me there was another vehicle which was

21 occupied by the members of the HVO units. They hit me

22 and honked their horn and gave me signs to move aside

23 so that they could pass. There was nothing I could do

24 but to go on for 50 metres, because that was the narrow

25 section of the road, so I went on driving my vehicle,

Page 6503

1 and when I emerged from that section, I moved aside.

2 But the vehicle with the HVO members, the HVO members

3 got out of the car, and they opened my doors, one of

4 the members of the HVO, and with his foot, with his

5 leg, he attacked me physically, and he broke my -- the

6 bone in my nose.

7 At the same time, the other soldier --

8 because they already knew me; that is to say, they

9 recognised me -- he grabbed hold of the soldier,

10 because he had taken up a machine gun, and he said to

11 me, "Doctor, flee from here." So I got back into my

12 car and -- all bloody as I was; blood was still running

13 out of my nose -- I fled to the police station in

14 Vitez.

15 Q. You wanted to submit a complaint with the

16 police, and you addressed the chief of police,

17 Mr. Samir, and he told you that according to his

18 information, the soldiers who attacked you belonged to

19 a group called the Vitezovi; isn't that so?

20 A. Yes. When I came in front of the police

21 station building, everybody knew me, more or less, and

22 Mirko Samir happened to be there at the time. He was

23 the chief of MUP, and I knew him. He asked me what had

24 happened, and I told him what had happened, and he

25 immediately said to me, "Well, wait here for a moment,"

Page 6504

1 and he sent his policemen off and told them -- he

2 ordered them to go on the spot and to ascertain what

3 had in fact happened. He personally took me -- he got

4 into the car with me, my car with me, and we went to

5 the first-aid station together, in Vitez, where I was

6 given medical treatment.

7 He insisted upon me going to the hospital in

8 Travnik for a further medical examination in order to

9 determine the objective state of my injuries. However,

10 I said that I was going to go home and that I would

11 think about it and see what I was going to do next.

12 That's what I did do, in fact; I went home.

13 Q. So Mr. Samir told you that there was nothing

14 he could do to follow up your complaint because these

15 were military men, and in fact your complaint never was

16 followed through?

17 A. When I went home, about half an hour later,

18 Mr. Samir Mirko, Mirko Samir, came with two policemen,

19 he came to my house with them. In a way he apologised

20 to me on that occasion and said that for the time

21 being, he could do nothing because the circumstances

22 were such, and he insisted that I go to Travnik and

23 have a checkup so that we could have the results of

24 that medical checkup, and when the time was ripe and

25 the situation was favourable, he would then take steps,

Page 6505

1 whereas for the time being, as they were military

2 circumstances and military needs, there was nothing he

3 could do about it, and that the situation was as it

4 stood at the moment. In that way he sort of tried to

5 apologise and calm me down and console me.

6 Q. You never learnt what happened with your

7 complaint and any subsequent inquiries?

8 A. Quite by chance, one month later, a friend of

9 mine who worked in the municipality of Vitez called me

10 and said, "I've got something to show you." He took me

11 off. In front of a building there was a pillar, and on

12 the pillar was a death certificate stuck to it with --

13 an obituary notice, with a photograph on it, and he

14 said, "This is the soldier who attacked you and who

15 broke your nose." He said, "Well, you see, he's dead.

16 He seems to have killed himself through adverse

17 circumstances."

18 I read this obituary notice. As far as I

19 remember, his surname was Grabovac. Grabovac. That

20 was the surname, as far as I can remember. He came

21 from the area of Cajdras, the Zenica municipality.

22 That's what I remember about all that. But, as I say,

23 I didn't attach any particular importance to that. It

24 was a fact, and I accepted it as such.

25 Q. As far as you know, that soldier was never

Page 6506

1 punished for his attack on you?

2 A. No. I only know that at that time, I was

3 told that the policemen who went on the spot to

4 ascertain the facts and circumstances had been given

5 information that of those present, nobody must state

6 who was present. This was something that Darko

7 Kraljevic raised, who was in a cafe where the policeman

8 had turned up, and they had been given orders that

9 nobody was to betray the individual who had launched

10 the attack on me. That's what I was told by the

11 policemen who went on the spot to investigate in that

12 particular case. That was the information that I got

13 from those policemen who escorted Mirko Samir.

14 Q. This Vitezovi unit was previously called HOS

15 and joined the HVO in the summer of 1992; isn't that

16 so?

17 A. Yes. Yes. Those were precisely those people

18 referred to as HOS, the HOS unit. At its head was

19 Darko Kraljevic, my neighbour, a close neighbour of

20 mine, the son of Kraljevic, the father, who is a friend

21 of mine, Stanko, and the mother of Darko Kraljevic

22 worked with my wife, they were colleagues in the same

23 office, so that I knew the family very well. I knew

24 Darko's family very well. Darko and his younger

25 brother went to school together with my own daughters,

Page 6507

1 and I was the individual who --

2 Q. This Vitezovi unit was stationed close to

3 your house in the building of the forestry

4 administration; isn't that so?

5 A. Yes. We are quite close. Everything was --

6 the forestry administration, my house, my veterinarian

7 station, Darko's house, where I worked -- everything

8 was within 300 square metres, a space of 300 square

9 metres.

10 Q. In that same building, was there a unit of

11 the Vitez Brigade that was stationed there?

12 A. On the premises of the forestry

13 administration building, it was the forestry

14 administration building that we called the Sumarija in

15 Rijeka, and in that particular building was where the

16 headquarters, the command of the Rijeka unit was

17 located, that particular unit of the HVO.

18 Q. Excuse me; the translation was "the command

19 of Rijecko"; is that "Rijeka"? The name of the area,

20 isn't it?

21 A. Yes, that's right. Rijeka, and the

22 adjective "Rijecka." Yes, the place was called

23 Rijeka. Quite right.

24 Q. In January of 1993, Mr. Zeco, you were a

25 member of the war presidency which replaced the

Page 6508

1 coordination committee for the protection of Muslims,

2 and you were entrusted with the civil defence affairs

3 for the Municipality of Vitez?

4 A. Yes. In January, the war presidency was set

5 up for the Vitez municipality, whose member I was, and

6 I was appointed commander of the municipal headquarters

7 of civil defence.

8 Q. Thank you. Let us now go on to the month of

9 April 1993. On the 16th of April, 1993, Mr. Zeco, you

10 were at home when, around 5.30 in the morning, you

11 heard the bombing of the town of Vitez, and you were

12 not at all expecting an attack on the town?

13 A. Not at all. At least I, personally, did not,

14 and the people who were in contact with me then, we had

15 no intimation whatsoever that what took place on that

16 16th of April in the morning at 5.30 would happen. At

17 5.30 in the morning I was woken up, and so was my wife,

18 by shooting and shelling. And after a short space of

19 time -- that is to say, half an hour of that -- the

20 members of HVO units came up to the house, and they

21 asked me to open up.

22 Q. Just a moment, please, Mr. Zeco. This attack

23 on the town of Vitez, was it by the BH army or the HVO?

24 A. No, it was not. At least I, myself, as a

25 member of the war presidency, not at all. It was not

Page 6509

1 any kind of sign that the army, BH army, did anything

2 in the line of an armed attack on any kind of

3 institutions or property or whatever. There was

4 absolutely no sign of this, especially as on the 15th

5 of April, there was a meeting of the war presidency at

6 which the commander of the Armija, Dzidic Sefkija, was

7 present, and I myself was at a joint meeting of the

8 commission for the sowing season in the municipality,

9 but I nonetheless succeeded in arriving at the meeting

10 of the war presidency, towards its end, and the meeting

11 was attended by the commander of the BH army, Sefkjia,

12 and he didn't say at all that anything like that could

13 happen.

14 Q. The soldiers that appeared at your home on

15 that morning, around 6.00, 6.30 in the morning, were

16 they HVO soldiers or soldiers of the BH army?

17 A. No, they were soldiers of the HVO, and

18 amongst them I recognised two. They were my

19 neighbours, Krunoslav Bonic, nicknamed Kico, who came

20 up to my door directly and said, "Doctor, put your

21 clothes on, I have to take you off." And in the

22 vicinity was the son of Zvonko Karin, my neighbour, his

23 son, I don't know his name, but he was there too, and

24 they told me to get dressed because they were going to

25 take me off to a certain place.

Page 6510

1 Q. Mr. Zeco, didn't you know the name of

2 Krunoslav Bonic?

3 A. Yes, I did, but he's a younger generation

4 from me. I don't remember exactly, but I did know --

5 Q. I'm asking you for the first name of the

6 father of Krunoslav Bonic, the father, the first name.

7 A. Yes, I knew the father well, Krunoslav

8 Bonic's father.

9 Q. Just his name.

10 A. Franjo, Franjo Bonic was his name. By

11 profession he is a waiter, and so --

12 Q. Thank you. Thank you. This Krunoslav Bonic

13 who arrested you, did you know whether he was captured

14 by the BH army during the conflict and where he now

15 lives?

16 A. Yes, he was captured. After the war conflict

17 ceased, he was arrested. I know that he was arrested

18 and that he spent his time in prison in Travnik, and

19 after that, after a certain amount of time spent in

20 prison, he moved to Australia. That's what I know.

21 Q. I'm going to show you a photograph, Mr. Zeco,

22 reference number Z2764. Mr. Zeco, can you tell me

23 whether you recognise on this photograph Krunoslav

24 Bonic that you have been telling us about?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 6511

1 Q. Thank you. After being arrested, Mr. Zeco,

2 in your home, and then you were taken to the veterinary

3 station where you used to work, and you noted upon your

4 arrival that some 50 Muslim detainees were already in

5 the basement of that building; is that so?

6 A. Yes. They took me to the veterinary station,

7 and in the basement of that building, in the office

8 premises and the halls where we examined the animals,

9 there were already about 40 individuals there,

10 exclusively of Muslim ethnicity.

11 Q. I'm now going to show you a photograph,

12 Mr. Zeco, the reference number 2765. This photograph,

13 does it show the veterinary station you mentioned?

14 A. Yes. You can see the veterinary station

15 building, the one that I have just mentioned.

16 Q. Thank you. I'd like to show you another

17 document, Mr. Zeco, which is an aerial photograph of

18 the neighbourhood in Vitez called Rijeka. It is marked

19 Z1971.

20 This is a document which was annexed,

21 attached to your statement of 1997, and at the time,

22 you explained to the investigator where the various

23 buildings were located, the various institutions we

24 have mentioned so far.

25 Can you confirm to us that this document

Page 6512

1 does, indeed, show the headquarters in Rijeka, the

2 veterinarian station in which you were detained

3 together with other Muslims, and then finally on the

4 right-hand side, shows where your own house is located?

5 A. Yes, quite so. That is precisely the

6 photograph of the locality called Rijeka. I can see

7 the veterinarian station building here, I can see my

8 own house, I can see the Sumarija, and I recognise ...

9 Q. Could you show where your house was,

10 Mr. Zeco, on the video or on the screen, where the

11 headquarters were, where Sumarija was, and where the

12 station was where you worked?

13 A. That is the veterinarian station

14 [indicating]. This is my own house [indicating]. This

15 is the veterinarian station [indicating]. This is my

16 own house [indicating]. That's right. This part here

17 [indicating], that is the forestry administration

18 building called Sumarija.

19 Q. Mr. Zeco, and it is in that building, the

20 forestry administration building, that there were the

21 Vitezovi on the one hand and the headquarters of the

22 unit of the Vitez Brigade in Rijeka?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. The three locations are very close to one

25 another, aren't they?

Page 6513

1 A. I said a moment ago that the area is 300

2 square metres in size. It's one next to each other.

3 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: We no longer need the

4 document.

5 Q. In the cellar of that veterinarian station,

6 there were other prisoners from the neighbourhood of

7 Rijeka, and they were detained there too, bringing the

8 number to some 70 people.

9 A. Yes. All the prisoners more or less who were

10 detained there, there were about 70 to 76 people -- at

11 one point, there were 76, I know that -- they were

12 called out and taken away. But for the most part,

13 there were about 70 people, mostly Muslims from the

14 local community of Rijeka.

15 However, there were a few people from another

16 area of Vitez. Mostly, they were Muslims who had been

17 caught there during the attack, who had been in the

18 Rijeka area during the attack, and as they were

19 Muslims, they were arrested and taken to the building

20 and held prisoner there in the building of the

21 veterinarian station. There were maybe five or six

22 individuals from another area, not from the Rijeka

23 local community area.

24 Q. Were all the detainees civilians?

25 A. They were exclusively civilians.

Page 6514

1 Q. All males?

2 A. Male, yes.

3 Q. You were detained there together with that

4 group of people for four days, after which you were

5 taken to the Dubravica school, weren't you?

6 A. Yes, we were all detained there at the

7 veterinarian station, and on the fourth day, we were

8 transferred from the veterinarian station, we were

9 transferred to -- we went from in front of the Sumarija

10 building, buses came to pick us up, and we were then

11 transferred to the school which was in the Dubravica

12 area.

13 Q. Before we come to speak about that transfer,

14 I'd like you to tell us how things developed at the

15 station. The guards there did not provide you with any

16 food, did they, but your families were authorised to

17 take food and drinks to you; is that so?

18 A. Yes. Our families, who lived more or less

19 close by, would come and bring us food. There were no

20 problems at that time for food to be brought to us and

21 given to us. So as far as the food question was

22 concerned for the people there, it was just that people

23 who lived outside the Rijeka area, they were helped too

24 by the families of the detainees from the area, so that

25 these others would also be given food by the families

Page 6515

1 of the detainees.

2 Q. In respect of the guards at this centre, at

3 this station, you noticed that they would regularly

4 come in in order to select detainees and for the

5 detainees to go and dig trenches in the Rijeka and

6 Kruscica areas.

7 A. Yes. Throughout the time spent at the

8 veterinarian station, soldiers would come, several

9 soldiers would arrive, and they would ask the person in

10 charge of us, the one who was the organiser of the

11 people detained at the veterinarian station, they asked

12 him for a certain number of prisoners, to take them

13 off, and we know from the stories told by the people

14 when they returned that they were taken to dig

15 trenches.

16 Q. The commander of the veterinarian station,

17 which was then used as a detention centre, was, indeed,

18 Zeljko Matkovic, wasn't it?

19 A. Yes, he was the commander of the prisoners

20 being held at the veterinarian station. He was in

21 command, Zeljko Matkovic, yes.

22 Q. He was from Rijeka. You knew him; is that

23 so?

24 A. I knew him very well. He was a teacher by

25 profession, and he lived close by. He was a neighbour,

Page 6516

1 so I knew him very well.

2 Q. During those four days, some of the people

3 that had been selected to go and dig trenches were

4 killed. Among them, Jusuf Ibrakovic and Mr. Nesib

5 Hurem; is that so?

6 A. Yes. When they had been -- when a group had

7 been taken away, upon their return, when they came back

8 from trench-digging, they said that on the occasion,

9 Jusuf Ibrakovic, called Juso, was killed -- had been

10 killed. I got to know him and I was interested in this

11 because he did not come from the Rijeka area, but he

12 was from the area of Stari Vitez.

13 At that particular time, his mother phoned me

14 up and asked me --

15 Q. Excuse me. Unfortunately, it may not be

16 necessary to mention all the details.

17 I just wanted to show you two documents.

18 These are death certificates with regard to Mr. Jusuf

19 Ibrakovic and Mr. Nesib Hurem. Their numbers are

20 Z22104 and Z22105.

21 Mr. Zeco, could you please tell us whether

22 these death certificates do represent Mr. Ibrakovic and

23 Mr. Hurem, whom you've just mentioned?

24 A. Yes. Yes, precisely so.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Lopez-Terres, I'd like

Page 6517

1 to find out if the witness himself was selected for

2 trench-digging; if not, if he's able to offer any

3 explanation as to the method of selecting people for

4 trench-digging.


6 Q. Can you please answer the Judge's question,

7 Mr. Zeco?

8 A. Yes. The HVO soldiers would come to the

9 building of the veterinarian station, and they would

10 ask Zeljko Matkovic to supply them with 10 to 15

11 prisoners so that they could take them off. They asked

12 for physically stronger men. So he would select -- how

13 he selected this was left to him, and he would select

14 these individuals which he would then send off with the

15 soldiers to do trench-digging.

16 Q. You didn't quite answer the first question,

17 Mr. Zeco. Were you yourself forced to go and dig

18 trenches?

19 A. No. No, they didn't take me off to dig

20 trenches. Nobody asked me to go.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.


23 Q. The sides where the trenches were dug were in

24 close vicinity to the confrontation line, weren't they?

25 A. The prisoners at the veterinarian station,

Page 6518

1 they took them off to the confrontation line, to the

2 Kruscica area. That was the area they were taken to to

3 dig trenches; that is to say, the prisoners from the

4 veterinarian station.

5 Q. Are you aware of the circumstances under

6 which Mr. Hurem and Mr. Ibrakovic were killed?

7 A. Jusuf Ibrakovic, according to the stories

8 told by the rest, the other people who went to dig

9 trenches, tried to take an automatic rifle which was in

10 front of him. How the rifle came to be in front of

11 him -- when he took the rifle, one of the soldiers who

12 was there close by shot at him directly, and he killed

13 Jusuf Ibrakovic; whereas Nesib Hurem, he died while he

14 was digging trenches; he died from a bullet fired from

15 some area. Nobody said where the shot came from or how

16 this happened, but he was killed during

17 trench-digging. That was the information that I got.

18 Q. During the time that you spent in the

19 detention centre, the HVO soldiers took your car,

20 didn't they, and the car was never returned to you

21 later on, was it?

22 A. Yes, that's right. They asked me to give

23 them the keys. The keys were in my pocket; they took

24 the keys. The garage was in the immediate vicinity.

25 They took the vehicle off, and I know because I saw

Page 6519

1 from the veterinarian station. I could see it in the

2 courtyard of the forestry administration building.

3 After that, I didn't see it.

4 Q. It is in that vehicle that a plan for the

5 protection and evacuation of Muslim civilians was

6 found. You had prepared that plan in case there was an

7 attack by the HVO; is that so?

8 A. Yes, in the car. As it was my duty to

9 prepare a plan for the safeguarding and protection of

10 Muslim citizens in case of an HVO attack, I said a

11 moment ago that I went to a meeting of the war

12 presidency, and I was given the assignment of

13 preparing, for the meeting of the 16th of April, a plan

14 of this kind and to present them a plan for the

15 safeguarding and protection of the Muslim people in

16 case of an HVO attack.

17 That plan was precisely in my car in a

18 cassette, and the HVO soldiers -- because later on, for

19 a brief period, Zeljko Matkovic told me about this plan

20 that was found, that was discovered, and they said that

21 it was allegedly a war plan, but it wasn't. It was

22 just a plan to safeguard and protect the civilians and

23 property in case of an HVO attack.

24 Q. Still whilst you were being detained in the

25 veterinarian station, on the 18th of April, 1993, two

Page 6520

1 days following your arrival there, Zeljko Matkovic,

2 whom you've just mentioned, asked you and the other

3 detainees, he told you to go to the cellar of the

4 veterinarian station. Do you remember the words he

5 said to you then?

6 A. Yes. He expressly ordered -- he said that

7 everybody who was in the offices, in the examination

8 hall, in the hallway, corridors, because the space was

9 restricted, he asked us all to go down to the basement,

10 and some 70 of us all went down. He said, "Something

11 is going to happen. What will happen will be seen, but

12 you all have to go to the basement," and that's what we

13 did.

14 After a short period of time there, an

15 explosion was heard, and Zeljko Matkovic finally came

16 and said, "You can come out now. Now you know. With

17 this, the question has been solved of the Muslims in

18 the Vitez area." We still did not know anything. We

19 just knew that we heard an explosion, detonation. What

20 it was, later on, we learnt that it was an explosion in

21 Stari Vitez of explosives there that were activated.

22 Q. Can you tell us more about the explosion?

23 What do you know about it? What was explained to you

24 as to the cause of the explosion?

25 A. I did not understand the question fully.

Page 6521

1 Q. Sir, there was an explosion on the 18th of

2 April, 1993. Could you tell us what it was actually?

3 JUDGE MAY: We've got his evidence about

4 that, Mr. Lopez-Terres, and we, of course, have heard

5 other evidence. Let's move on.


7 Q. Four days after you had arrived at the

8 station, you were transferred to the Dubravica school.

9 You explained to us that you first went to the Sumarija

10 building where buses were waiting for you; is that so?

11 A. Yes --

12 Q. This school --

13 A. -- in front of the Sumarija administration

14 building.

15 Q. How far was the Dubravica school from the

16 veterinarian station?

17 A. Well, the distance is about a kilometre away,

18 as the crow flies, I mean. Perhaps it's 1.200 or 1.300

19 metres. That is the distance from the forestry

20 administration building to the school in Dubravica.

21 Q. In the building of the forestry

22 administration, a unit of the Vitez Brigade was

23 stationed, and it was headed by somebody you knew.

24 Could you give us the name of that commander?

25 A. Yes, the commander of that unit at Rijeka was

Page 6522

1 Karlo Grabovac, whom I knew personally, and I know that

2 he was the commander of the unit at Rijeka.

3 Q. Do you know his father's first name?

4 A. Yes. I know the whole family. There is Jozo

5 Grabovac, who worked at the post office.

6 Q. Thank you. How old, approximately, was Karlo

7 Grabovac?

8 A. Well, he was between 50 and 55 years of age

9 at the time; that is to say, I'm speaking about the

10 1993 period.

11 Q. I mean Karlo Grabovac's age; I wanted to know

12 how old the son was.

13 A. Karlo was between 23 and 25 years of age,

14 somewhere thereabouts.

15 Q. As far as you know, was Karlo Grabovac the

16 superior in the chain of command to Zeljko Matkovic?

17 A. [No audible response]

18 Q. And he was in charge of the areas of Kruscica

19 and Rijeka?

20 A. Yes. Yes, I think that the command of that

21 unit for the Kruscica area in Vitez was in the forestry

22 administration building, and all the orders which were

23 issued to Zeljko Matkovic would come from the forestry

24 administration building, the orders which he executed

25 and which he acted upon. Yes, that's right.

Page 6523

1 Q. As far as you know, was the accused, Mario

2 Cerkez, Karlo Grabovac's commander?

3 A. Yes, I know that. Yes.

4 Q. As far as you know, there were several

5 centres in Vitez, weren't there, in which there were

6 units of the Vitez Brigade. You mentioned five centres

7 in addition to the main centre where the headquarters

8 was.

9 A. I think that touring the Vitez municipality

10 region, I came to realise that in certain localities,

11 there were certain commands of those military units,

12 and I knew that there was the Rijeka unit, the

13 Dubravica one, the Stara Bila one, in Kruscica,

14 Divjak. All those were commands in command of the HVO

15 units in the Vitez municipality.

16 The main command, the headquarters of the

17 Vitez municipality, was in town in the cultural centre,

18 that is to say, in the hotel building. For the Vitez

19 municipality, that was the headquarters, the sort of

20 supreme headquarters for all the other headquarters in

21 the Vitez area.

22 Q. This supreme headquarters was in the hands of

23 Mario Cerkez; is that so?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you were transferred to the Dubravica

Page 6524

1 school, you were put together with the other detainees

2 in the gym premises, and you noticed that there were

3 already other people detained there, women, children,

4 and some men, coming from the region of Ahmici.

5 A. Yes, I remember that well. When we arrived,

6 as you have just described it, that was the situation I

7 came across when we arrived.

8 Q. Were you able to gauge the number of

9 prisoners that were together with you in that gym

10 premises?

11 A. About that number, there were about that many

12 people there, because during our detention on the

13 premises, we had to solve the question of food. So we

14 would assess the situation and we had to count the

15 number of people there, and we found that there were

16 about 360 detainees there.

17 Q. Whilst you were being detained at the

18 Dubravica school, you were authorised to receive drinks

19 and food from your families, weren't you?

20 A. Yes. We were brought food by the members of

21 the HVO. They would bring in food that our families

22 had brought to the courtyard of the forestry

23 administration building. Then they would take over

24 this food brought by our families, and they were told

25 when to bring that food, so that they could then take

Page 6525

1 it to us, to the Dubravica school. During our

2 detention at the Dubravica school, we would get this

3 food regularly.

4 Q. During your detention, you received staple

5 products, such as soap, underwear, clean underwear,

6 that sort of thing, didn't you?

7 A. Yes. Yes, the people that brought us the

8 food, we would tell them what else we would like to

9 have brought to us. They would then convey our wishes,

10 and we would get underwear or whatever we required in

11 the way of personal items. So this was solved, fully

12 solved, this question.

13 Q. Among the male detainees in the Dubravica

14 school, were some of them selected for trench-digging,

15 and were they taken to specific areas which you could

16 mention for us?

17 A. Yes, that's right. During the time we spent

18 in Dubravica, there would be demands from the HVO --

19 more demand from the HVO, so that prisoners would be

20 taken off for trench-digging more and more. They were

21 usually taken to the area of Nadioci, Pirici, Kuber,

22 Sivrino Selo, Tolovici. For the most part, those were

23 the areas where there were some front lines in the

24 area. So throughout the time we spent in the camp,

25 prisoners were taken off.

Page 6526

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, it's now the

2 time to adjourn. Is that a convenient moment?

3 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: Absolutely, Your Honour.

4 Thank you.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Half past two.

6 Mr. Zeco, we're going to adjourn until half

7 past two. Would you please be back then?


9 JUDGE MAY: Would you remember not to speak

10 to anybody about your evidence during this and any

11 other adjournment, and that includes the members --


13 JUDGE MAY: -- of the Prosecution? Thank you

14 very much.

15 Half past two.

16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.










Page 6527

1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Lopez-Terres.

3 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Zeco, before the break, you told us the

5 various places where the prisoners were taken to dig

6 trenches from the school in Dubravica. You testified

7 as a witness in the General Blaskic case in

8 September 1997, and at the time, you marked a document

9 representing various geographical zones, and I'm going

10 to show you a copy of that document now, which was

11 marked 29 in the Blaskic case and will have our

12 reference Z2767.

13 Would you look at that document, Mr. Zeco,

14 and confirm that this is indeed a copy of the document

15 on which you testified in September 1997, and would you

16 again indicate the various places where prisoners were

17 taken to dig trenches.

18 JUDGE MAY: We are getting the French

19 translation.

20 Mr. Lopez-Terres, the spots have been marked

21 on this plan; there's no need for the witness to do it

22 again. We will simply accept the plan.

23 Mr. Zeco, there is no need to go over it

24 again. Are the places which you marked on here the

25 places at which trenches had to be dug?

Page 6528

1 A. Yes, precisely. These little arrows here

2 indicate the places where the prisoners were digging

3 trenches, and they are in the northeastern part of the

4 Vitez municipality: Tolovici, Vrhovine, Pirici --

5 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Zeco, let me interrupt;

6 we can see from the plan. If anybody wants to ask you

7 any questions about it, they can.

8 Yes, can we go on, please, Mr. Lopez-Terres.

9 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Of course,

10 Mr. President.

11 Q. Mr. Zeco, as far as you remember, some of the

12 detainees who went to dig trenches in the areas we have

13 referred to, were they killed or wounded during this

14 forced labour?

15 A. Yes. There were some who were killed, some

16 of the detainees, and there were some who were wounded,

17 yes.

18 Q. You were kept informed at the school in

19 Dubravica of the fate of those who went to dig

20 trenches, and upon their return to the school, they

21 told you of what had happened, didn't they?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. During these reports made to you by the

24 prisoners, they told you that they were forced to dig

25 trenches and that very frequently they were mistreated,

Page 6529

1 physically and psychologically, and also humiliated; is

2 that true?

3 A. Yes. Exactly so.

4 Q. Could you also confirm the story of what one

5 of the prisoners told you regarding what happened in

6 the area of Nadioci?

7 A. Yes. Let me mention quite a drastic example

8 of this psychological and physical abuse. A young

9 prisoner who was under 20 -- I know him well; he used

10 to work in a tyre repair shop -- became physically and

11 psychologically broken. He told us the story that

12 members of the HVO had mistreated them in such a way

13 that they tied a pig to a tree, and they forced him to

14 have intercourse with that pig. However, this didn't

15 happen. Even though he had agreed to do it, they gave

16 up the idea, but this had a terrible effect on him and

17 the others who were present.

18 Q. I should now like to show the Chamber a video

19 clip of a film taken in this Dubravica school in April

20 1993. It is Prosecution Exhibit 1625-1.

21 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Can we

22 play the tape, please?

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] There are

25 several extracts.

Page 6530

1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Black Legion"

2 is written.

3 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Thank

4 you. I think we can stop there.

5 Q. Mr. Zeco, you've seen these several

6 abstracts. This film was shot in the areas of the

7 school at Dubravica. Did you recognise the halls of

8 that school?

9 A. Yes, I did. I recognised the school, and I

10 even saw the spot where I was detained.

11 Q. That was in the gym, wasn't it, the Sports

12 Hall?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On the screen, at a given moment, we saw a

15 drawing on the wall with the words "Crna Legija."

16 Could you tell us what that means?

17 A. It was the emblem of the Vitezovi, as far as

18 I was informed, and they were headed by Darko

19 Kraljevic.

20 Q. Thank you. When you were with the other

21 detainees in this school of which we just saw some

22 pictures, you were informed by the guards at that

23 school that should the BH army attack the institution,

24 it would be totally destroyed by explosives and also by

25 setting alight the petrol tank that was to be found in

Page 6531

1 the school; isn't that so?

2 A. At the time we arrived, and that was in the

3 period from the 19th to the 21st of April, I think, in

4 the immediate vicinity of the school, where we were

5 held, there was shooting. There was a battle going on,

6 and the shooting came quite close to the school at one

7 point, and it was then that HVO soldiers came and told

8 us that the ground around the school was mined, and

9 that should the army attack, that we would be blown up

10 together with the building; that is, that in the

11 basement there was a fuel tank, and that it would be

12 set alight. That is what we were told.

13 Q. Were you then told by the local commander

14 that indeed, the HVO had confirmed this, that should

15 the offensive continue, the building would be destroyed

16 by explosives, together with the detainees in it?

17 A. Yes. Later on, after some time, when I left

18 the area of Vitez municipality and crossed into

19 territory under control of the BH army, I had a direct

20 contact with the commander of an army brigade in the

21 area of Vitez, that is commander Mensud Kelestura, who

22 told me that the HVO had said that should the army

23 continue its offensive, they would blow up the building

24 together with the Muslim detainees in that building at

25 the time.

Page 6532

1 Q. You were eventually released, together with

2 the other detainees, on the 30th of April, 1993, but

3 before being able to go home, you were asked whether

4 you and the other detainees wanted to stay in Vitez or

5 to leave the region.

6 A. Yes. We were told that we should all go to

7 an office where things had already been prepared and

8 tell them what we wanted to do, whether we wanted to

9 stay in Vitez or to leave the area of Vitez. I

10 personally expressed the wish to stay in Vitez.

11 Q. The office that you mentioned that had been

12 prepared, were there only soldiers inside or also

13 civilians who were among those who put these questions

14 to you?

15 A. There were soldiers in there, but the

16 administrative matters were mostly dealt with by

17 certain women in civilian clothes. They were

18 administrative employees there.

19 Q. The prisoners who came from Ahmici were taken

20 by bus to Zenica upon their release, weren't they?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. They couldn't return to their homes.

23 A. No. We were told that the prisoners from

24 Ahmici would be taken by bus and relocated to Zenica.

25 Q. They didn't have a choice, I think.

Page 6533

1 A. Yes, they didn't.

2 Q. During the night of the 2nd of May, 1993, a

3 few days later when you were at home, two HVO soldiers

4 appeared at your house and started searching it. Could

5 you confirm that?

6 A. After my release and return to my home, the

7 second night, two soldiers came, HVO soldiers, who said

8 that they had received a report that there was a radio

9 transmitter in my house and that they wanted to search

10 the house to check. They went through the whole house,

11 they searched it, and said, "It's okay," and they left

12 the house.

13 Q. Was Krunoslav Bonic one of the two soldiers,

14 the one who you mentioned this morning?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. After leaving your house, these two soldiers

17 came back, in fact, half an hour later and took you to

18 a house in the area of Sofa, after putting handcuffs on

19 you.

20 A. Yes. About half an hour later, a group of

21 soldiers, I think three or four of them, came. Because

22 there were other soldiers behind them, I didn't turn

23 around to look, they were masked, with something over

24 their heads, they took me to a room in the area of

25 Sofa, to a small hut, and they took me inside.

Page 6534

1 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: Excuse me for

2 intervening. It must be a matter of translation.

3 "Sofa" is a region of Vitez, a geographic area, not a

4 sofa, as such, as a piece of furniture.

5 Q. There's a place called Sofa; that's what the

6 people of Vitez call it?

7 A. Yes, it is just behind my house or, rather,

8 just behind the veterinarian station, maybe 200 metres

9 away.

10 Q. You noted traces of blood on the walls in

11 that house. What else did you note?

12 A. Yes. When I entered this room, I was

13 really -- I don't know how to say -- extremely

14 astonished because I saw on the walls splashes of

15 blood, and inside there was a pile of beer cans, and I

16 became apprehensive of my own fate.

17 Q. While going to that house, you were hit

18 several times, including by the soldier Bonic.

19 A. Yes. Among the others who were there, they

20 were masked, they had a cover over their faces, but I

21 recognised by his voice and face and general appearance

22 that Bonic was one of them.

23 They even physically abused me. They told me

24 to lie down and that I mustn't turn around. I moved a

25 little bit and peeked behind, when one of them hit me

Page 6535

1 with his pistol butt, and shortly after that, they

2 fired a shot just above my head so that this warm air

3 hit me, and I thought I had been shot, that I had been

4 hit; fortunately, I hadn't. But one of the

5 consequences is that I had this ringing sound in my

6 ears, and ever since then, I have problems with my

7 hearing.

8 Q. While you were in the house, the same

9 soldiers brought in another prisoner whom you

10 recognised as Mr. Midhat Hodzic, the former mayor of

11 the municipality, and who suffered the same fate as

12 you, didn't he?

13 A. Yes. About half an hour after my arrival,

14 they brought in Midhat Hodzic, my neighbour, the former

15 president of the municipality. They brought him into

16 the same room in which I was, and they treated him in

17 the same way as they had treated me.

18 Q. Those soldiers put questions to you. Did

19 they interrogate you? Did they ask for information

20 about the BH army, about the weapons that Muslims may

21 have?

22 A. Yes. They gave us a piece of paper to write

23 down, as far as we knew, where the BH army units were

24 located, to tell them who were the men who had assisted

25 in the procurement of weapons, which weapons were kept

Page 6536

1 where, but both Midhat Hodzic and myself had no

2 knowledge about these things that they were interested

3 in. However, they kept insisting that we do that, and

4 they were probably not satisfied with our replies and

5 what we wrote down on this paper, and then they

6 physically pressured us so that they hit us repeatedly

7 and injured us physically.

8 Q. When, fortunately, they took you back home

9 that night, these soldiers took a sum of 480

10 Deutschemarks that you had at home, and they ordered

11 you to leave your house the next day at 5.00 in the

12 afternoon.

13 A. Yes, they told me that after 5.00, I must not

14 be found in my house.

15 Q. You stayed, nevertheless, and you went to the

16 police station to submit a complaint regarding the

17 suffering and the maltreatment and the order that you

18 had received to leave the area, and you understood that

19 that claim had little chance of producing any result.

20 A. Yes. I asked the police to intervene, and I

21 wanted to tell them what had happened. Two policemen

22 came to my house, they drew up a report about the

23 event, and I explicitly required their opinion and

24 their view regarding my continued stay there, whether I

25 should stay on or not. I asked them to go to the

Page 6537

1 headquarters in the forestry administration building at

2 Rijeka to convey this position that I should stay, and

3 they promised to do that. But when they left, I saw

4 that they didn't go to the headquarters, but rather

5 that they went directly to their police station. So my

6 conclusion was that they would not carry out the

7 promise they had made to me.

8 Q. This headquarters you're referring to is the

9 building of the Sumarija, where Mr. Grabovac was in

10 command, the building you have already referred to?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Finally, you were taken in by a Croatian

13 friend.

14 A. Yes. In the meantime, a friend of mine

15 came -- rather, a colleague of my wife's, his name was

16 Zvonko Santic, he came to visit us because he had

17 learnt that I had been released from prison. But when

18 he heard what had happened that night, he himself said

19 that if that was so, he would take us in and take us to

20 his own house and provide protection for me and my wife

21 in that way, which he did, indeed. We got into the car

22 that he had come in and moved to the house of this

23 friend of ours called Zvonko Santic.

24 Q. The next day, you tried to collect some

25 personal belongings from your house and you noted that

Page 6538

1 it was occupied.

2 A. Yes. The next day, my wife -- because we

3 hadn't prepared ourselves for moving, so the next day,

4 my wife and Zvonko Santic drove us to my house to

5 collect some personal belongings; however, when they

6 arrived, they were prevented from entering the house or

7 taking anything from it. However, Zvonko Santic

8 intervened; he tried to explain that it was necessary,

9 but the person who had already moved into the house

10 called the HVO soldiers to intervene, and they again

11 came from the Sumarija building, and they didn't allow

12 them to go in but rather demanded that they leave,

13 which they did, and came back without having completed

14 what they set out to do.

15 Q. So you stayed with that Croatian family for

16 several days, and on the 8th of May, 1993, soldiers of

17 the military police of the HVO came to take you to the

18 Vitez Hotel?

19 A. Yes. I was taken by military policemen, this

20 time to the Vitez Hotel, to a room, and somebody I did

21 not know was there. He must have had some sort of a

22 position; he was wearing a camouflage uniform. He

23 asked me what were the plans that I had compiled? I

24 said that they were plans for the protection of the

25 civilian population because I was the commander of the

Page 6539

1 municipal civil defence staff, and these were

2 exclusively plans to protect civilians, civilian

3 property, in the case of war operations or conflicts.

4 That was the plan for this.

5 After a certain period of time and thinking

6 things over, he said, "All right." He called a soldier

7 and said to him, "This is the job of the civilian

8 police," and that I should be taken to the police

9 station, which I was.

10 Q. So you were then taken to the civilian

11 police, who interrogated you again, and they held you

12 for 48 hours?

13 A. Yes. I was taken to the police station.

14 They drew up a report about everything. After

15 compiling this report, which I signed, I was taken to a

16 room which had a toilet and an improvised bed and a

17 blanket, and I spent 48 hours there.

18 Q. You were then released and told to stay under

19 house arrest for a while?

20 A. Yes. They escorted me back to Zvonko

21 Santic's house again, and they told me that I would be

22 in a kind of house arrest, that I mustn't leave the

23 house because they would control the area, and this is

24 something that I noticed anyway, I could notice their

25 presence around the building, so that I was taken back

Page 6540

1 to Zvonko Santic's house.

2 Q. So on the 13th of May, you were finally able

3 to leave Vitez, and since then, Mr. Zeco, have you had

4 the chance to regain possession of your house?

5 A. No. I was not able to go back home until

6 perhaps a month ago. Now I can tell you that I have

7 submitted all the necessary papers and requests and

8 even taken the matter to court to regain possession of

9 my property.

10 Q. As far as you know, Mr. Zeco, how many

11 Muslims from the area of Rijeka remained in that area

12 after the facts that you have just described?

13 A. All in all, in the urban area which was under

14 the control of the HVO, I know that only between 90 and

15 100 Muslims stayed on in the area under HVO control in

16 Vitez municipality.

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

18 Mr. Lopez-Terres, the witness told us that he went back

19 to his house a month ago. Does that mean that his

20 claims have been fruitful?

21 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Zeco, could you give us a more precise

23 answer regarding the results of your claims?

24 A. Most recently I got in touch with various

25 humanitarian organisations or, rather, organisations

Page 6541

1 providing legal assistance and which are trying to

2 assist refugees and exiled persons to recover their

3 property. Since that is my wish and my desire and

4 intention, to recover my property and to go back, a

5 month ago I tried to do something in that area. I

6 submitted the request to the municipal authority six

7 months ago, in writing, but I received no answer to

8 those requests.

9 However, now, with the assistance and

10 intervention of these institutions which are

11 participating in dealing with these problems, I was

12 counselled that I should go and try and get in touch

13 with the people who are currently living in my house,

14 and that is what I did. I was not able to enter; they

15 didn't let me go inside. But they said until they have

16 resolved their own problems, they would not let me

17 enter.

18 I didn't argue. I left it to the official

19 authorities to deal with the problem and to make it

20 possible for me to recover my property.

21 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I have no

22 further questions, Mr. President, for this witness.

23 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

24 Yes, Mr. Sayers.

25 MR. SAYERS: If it please the Court,

Page 6542

1 Mr. Kovacic wanted to go first, but he's not ready at

2 this point. This witness was sprung on us, so with the

3 Court's permission, I'll take the lead here.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:

6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Zeco.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. Sir, my name is Stephen Sayers, and I

9 represent Dario Kordic. I'll try to be brief in the

10 questions that I have for you this afternoon, sir.

11 I understand, sir, that you have given a

12 statement to the Prosecution's investigators in July of

13 1995. Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That statement was given at the Ministry of

16 the Interior in Sarajevo; is that correct, sir?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Where was it given, sir?

19 A. I gave my statement in Zenica, in the

20 building -- in the municipal building of Zenica.

21 Q. All right. And you gave another statement to

22 the Prosecution, I believe, in January of 1997, sir; is

23 that right?

24 A. Quite possibly, yes.

25 Q. I believe that you testified in the Blaskic

Page 6543

1 case over the course of two days, on September the 25th

2 and 26th, 1997, two years ago?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Throughout 1991 and 1992, sir, it's true, is

5 it not, that you were actually active in civic matters

6 in the Vitez municipality?

7 A. I became active in the Vitez municipality;

8 that is to say, involved in solving the problems that

9 had arisen in July 1992. That's when I started.

10 Q. Prior to that time, you had actually been a

11 member of the municipal staff for civil defence; is

12 that not true, sir?

13 A. I was otherwise, throughout the period before

14 the conflict and in the former system as well, I was

15 always in the municipal staff for civil defence. I

16 always worked there, and I covered the subject matter

17 of the protection of livestock animals and property.

18 Q. In that capacity, I believe, you had attended

19 various seminars and training courses that equipped you

20 with the knowledge to develop plans for the defence of

21 the civilian population in the event of a military

22 attack; is that correct, sir?

23 A. Yes, that's correct. Throughout that time, a

24 long time ago, I went through all forms of education at

25 the level of the republic, the Republic of

Page 6544

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina as it was then, and even on a

2 federal level as well, of federal importance. Once

3 again, with regard to the protection of civilians,

4 property, and so on.

5 Q. You've already told the Trial Chamber that

6 you sat on the war presidency formed by the Muslim

7 people in January of 1993 as the commander at the

8 municipal headquarters of the civilian defence staff;

9 is that correct, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So I take it that you brought to the job, if

12 you like, some personal experience and training that

13 equipped you to perform your duties in that capacity;

14 is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Just a few general questions about the area

17 that you lived and travelled around in as a

18 veterinarian, sir, primarily the Vitez/Rijeka area; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In the map that you were shown, which was

22 marked as Z2767, that you marked up in the case against

23 General Blaskic, this map basically shows the area

24 where you discharged your responsibilities as a

25 veterinary practitioner; is that correct?

Page 6545

1 A. Could I please ask you to repeat that

2 question?

3 Q. Yes, it was probably not as clear as it could

4 be. Let me just ask you to take a look at the map that

5 you were shown by counsel for the Prosecution. It was

6 marked as Z2767. Would it be fair to say that this map

7 basically shows the area where you practised as a vet

8 in Vitez?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Occasionally, sir, as I understand it, but

11 only occasionally, you would be required to venture out

12 as far as Travnik to the west and Busovaca to the

13 southeast; would that be fair to say?

14 A. Yes, and related to performing our jobs as

15 vets, we cooperated; that is to say, we were

16 institutionally linked as a work organisation in

17 Busovaca, Vitez, Novi Travnik, Travnik.

18 Administratively, we were integrated into a common

19 service. Of course, every veterinary station had

20 performed its own professional duties in the area it

21 covered, but when the occasion arose, we even worked in

22 the areas of other municipalities, so that this area of

23 the Lasva River Valley is very well known to me. On

24 several occasions over the years, I would replace my

25 colleague, Pero Kordic, when he went on holiday. I

Page 6546

1 would replace him and perform the duties of a

2 veterinary surgeon in the Busovaca municipality, so

3 that this area of Busovaca, Vitez, Novi Travnik,

4 Travnik, is fairly well known to me.

5 Q. Thank you. You drove around in your vehicle

6 to perform services for various people in your

7 municipality, I take it, throughout the years of 1992

8 and up to the outbreak of the fighting in April of

9 1993; would that be fair to say?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. As you've previously stated to the Trial

12 Chamber, your face was well-known and your job was

13 well-known by pretty much everybody that you came

14 across in the area; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. Now, it would be also fair to

17 say, sir, that Vitez has a primarily farming and

18 agrarian economy for the people who live in the

19 outlying villages; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. With the exception of the two explosives and

22 ammunition factories actually located in the town of

23 Vitez itself, the Vitezit factory and the Slobodan

24 Princip Seljo factory; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6547

1 Q. You would also agree that Vitez was a vital

2 transit area between the rural and the urban areas;

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In fact, it was on the main road between the

6 towns of Banja Luka and Sarajevo; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. An extremely important road in Central

9 Bosnia; would you not agree, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Let me just turn very briefly to the

12 circumstances under which the republic was founded, and

13 I won't spend too much time on this, sir.

14 Would it be fair to say that the Bosnian

15 Serbs boycotted the referendum that was held on the

16 independence of the country on February the 28th and

17 March the 1st of 1992?

18 A. Yes, you could put it that way.

19 Q. But the Croats who lived in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Muslims too voted

21 overwhelmingly in favour of independence of the country

22 in that referendum, did they not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The republic was actually founded on March

25 the 6th of 1992 as an independent country; right?

Page 6548

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Within one month, sir, your country was

3 embroiled in a terrible civil war, wasn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In fact, the Serbs had, I believe, surrounded

6 and attacked the town of Mostar on March the 16th of

7 1992; does that sound about correct?

8 A. As far as dates go, I did not pay any great

9 attention to the dates, but probably it was

10 thereabouts, yes.

11 Q. Fair enough, sir. Do you recall that within

12 a month of the founding of the country, the capital,

13 Sarajevo, was attacked, surrounded, and besieged by

14 forces belonging to your Bosnian Serb countrymen and

15 also by the JNA?

16 A. I think that -- yes. Yes, but I personally

17 could accept that that was done by the Yugoslav army,

18 the Yugoslav army; that is to say, that the army did

19 that.

20 Q. All right. Now, would it be fair to say that

21 there had been large numbers, very large numbers of

22 refugees flooding into the Lasva Valley from the north,

23 from the east, and also from the west as a result of

24 offensives launched by Bosnian Serbs against their

25 fellow countrymen?

Page 6549

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Essentially, sir, in the spring, if you like,

3 of 1993, you'd been lucky, if you like, in the Lasva

4 Valley because there had essentially been no attacks in

5 the Lasva Valley by your Bosnian Serb countrymen

6 against you and your Croat countrymen; correct?

7 A. The Vitez area was saved from a general

8 attack, yes, that's right, but in the immediate

9 vicinity of the Lasva River Valley; that is to say, the

10 area of Vlasic, Zenica, where there had been an

11 instance of that aggression in the vicinity of Vitez,

12 and so this, of course, was reflected and had an effect

13 on the situation in the Vitez area.

14 That was the object of organising the

15 defence, the army's defence, and the HVO units which

16 were in the initial stages, they had a joint -- they

17 were jointly organised by way of defending the region.

18 Yes, that's true. And Vitez, from that aggressor, let

19 us say the Serb aggressor, led by the army of the

20 former Yugoslavia, Vitez luckily escaped an attack. It

21 was not attacked.

22 Q. It's true, though, isn't it, sir, that the

23 subject of needing to arm in self-defence was a subject

24 that was discussed very frequently by both you, the

25 Muslims, and by the Croats in the Vitez area after the

Page 6550

1 attacks in April of 1992?

2 A. In that period of time, I was not directly

3 engaged in activities of that kind. I was still -- I

4 was just informed and kept abreast of everything. I

5 kept abreast of everything, but I did not have any

6 activities. I was not involved in the first half of

7 1992, but I did receive information as to the

8 situation.

9 Q. All right. You have explained to the Trial

10 Chamber the circumstances under which the HVO basically

11 took over the organs of the municipal government in

12 Vitez in approximately June of 1992; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. About a month later, you and your colleagues

15 set up a body by the name of "The Coordination

16 Committee for the Protection of Muslims"; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you were elected to that body, sir, were

19 you not?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, we know all this.

22 The witness has agreed and given evidence about it.

23 MR. SAYERS: Yes, I'll move on, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.


Page 6551

1 Q. Would it be safe to say with respect to the

2 civilian police, about which you've given evidence,

3 Mr. Zeco, that it was your opinion that they were

4 essentially ineffective in Vitez when it came to

5 assaults performed upon you by members of the military?

6 A. I did not say that they were ineffective,

7 because the chief of MUP, Mirko Samija, who explained

8 that to me, given the prevailing circumstances, they

9 could not conduct an investigation as they would have

10 liked to have conducted one, and Mirko Samija himself

11 insisted and even the next day called me and told me

12 that, at all costs, I should go to Travnik, to the

13 hospital there for a medical examination which would

14 ascertain an objective finding, so that he would have

15 this finding, and when the time was ripe for this, an

16 investigation would go through. I believed him, in

17 view of the developments, and I accepted that state of

18 affairs and those facts.

19 Those are the observations that I have to

20 make in respect of that matter.

21 Q. Just a few questions about Mirko Samija. He

22 was the chief of civilian police in the Vitez

23 municipality; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And he was a Croat, sir, was he not?

Page 6552

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who was the chief of the military police in

3 your municipality at that time?

4 A. I think that at that time, before Mirko

5 Samija, the chief of police was Pero Skopljak.

6 Q. All right. With respect to the assaults that

7 were launched upon you by the members of the HVO

8 military, did you ever make a complaint to the military

9 police, to Mr. Skopljak?

10 A. No, I personally did not.

11 Q. All right. Turning now to the October 1992

12 conflict in your municipality that you described to the

13 Trial Chamber, you were aware that the Bosnian Serbs

14 were launching a violent attack upon the town of Jajce

15 throughout October of 1992, weren't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that the

18 townspeople of Jajce were in a desperate way during

19 that month, weren't they?

20 A. I didn't quite understand you. Could you ask

21 the question again, the latter half?

22 Q. Yes, sir, I'd be happy to. Would you agree

23 with me that the townspeople in Jajce, who were

24 subjected to the violent attack by Bosnian Serbs in

25 October of 1992, were in a pretty desperate way?

Page 6553

1 A. Possibly, yes.

2 Q. The town of Jajce was actually captured by

3 the Bosnian Serbs on October the 24th, was it not?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, stepping back to October the 19th and

6 20th, Mr. Zeco, there had not --

7 A. Very well.

8 Q. -- there had not been any previous armed

9 fighting, as far as you were aware, between the Muslims

10 and the Croats in the Lasva Valley, had there?

11 A. Which period? Up until which period, do you

12 mean?

13 Q. When the roadblock was placed on the main

14 road at Ahmici.

15 A. No, there wasn't; although up until then, on

16 several occasions, there were incidents of various

17 kinds where the members of the HVO encountered members

18 of the army and disarmed them, if we can call this

19 incidents or -- this is what happened up until then, in

20 the course of 1992.

21 Q. All right. So would it be fair to say that

22 when the roadblock was erected at Ahmici on October the

23 19th, that was the first time in your municipality that

24 a large number of Muslims had confronted Croats, armed

25 and impeding their access to the main supply route at

Page 6554

1 Ahmici?

2 A. I personally was not a part of situations

3 like that. I was not involved. All I know is that it

4 was a question of passage for the military units;

5 whereas there was no other impediment to anybody else's

6 access. So it was only this event of the 19th of

7 October that took place, and it was then that that area

8 became involved, that area of Ahmici.

9 I don't know that there was the inclusion of

10 any other units but that it was only at a local level,

11 at the level of the village of Ahmici. That was that

12 particular incident.

13 Q. The last question on this subject: That's

14 the first time, as far as you're aware, in the Lasva

15 Valley that Muslims forces stopped an HVO troop convoy

16 at gunpoint; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Indeed, I think that you would agree that

19 that was the perfect point at which to place a

20 roadblock because that controlled the communications

21 west to east along that road; correct?

22 A. Well, the whole term, the Lasva Valley, is a

23 narrow area, this whole space, so that it is an area of

24 Ahmici, a narrow area which could be placed under

25 control. So from that aspect, we can accept that

Page 6555

1 definition, yes.

2 Q. I'd like to give the Trial Chamber just a

3 visual image of what the geography and the hills are

4 like around Ahmici. As you are driving from Vitez to

5 Ahmici, sir, it's pretty obvious that the land on

6 either side is fairly open and somewhat flat until you

7 get to the Catholic cemetery, and then the hills

8 basically become very steep on either side at that

9 point, don't they?

10 A. You mean -- well, Ahmici itself, Ahmici, the

11 settlement, that area, Santici, it is a broader area.

12 So it's the broad area from the Kaonik region, which is

13 exceptionally narrow, and that is the space between

14 Busovaca and the Vitez municipality. So that is that

15 part, that region, whereas Ahmici lies in another

16 region, where it is broader, a broader space, so that

17 more easterly -- from the military aspects, a more

18 narrow area would be in the easterly part, which could

19 be placed under military control and supervision,

20 whereas Ahmici, the Ahmici area itself, is rather

21 broad.

22 But yes, as far as communications go, with

23 the road, the roadblock was placed precisely at that

24 section of the road. But there was breadth in the area

25 as you go farther on.

Page 6556

1 Q. All right. Let me just read to you a little

2 piece of your 1995 statement that was given in July

3 concerning this subject. You said that "We made a

4 decision to make a barricade at Ahmici. This was the

5 best place to have communicational control of the

6 roads." Do you still agree with that?

7 A. No, I don't agree. In deciding upon erecting

8 a roadblock, I personally did not take part in that, in

9 any discussions or anything like that.

10 Q. Let me just move on to one other subject that

11 you addressed with the Trial Chamber, and that was the

12 decision made by the Muslim forces to relocate their

13 headquarters from one building in Vitez to Stari Vitez;

14 do you remember that?

15 A. I remember that incident when that situation

16 occurred.

17 Q. I believe that the new headquarters was set

18 up in the fire station right next to the mosque in

19 Stari Vitez; is that correct?

20 A. No. I know very well that after the

21 headquarters was transferred from the secondary school

22 centre, that the headquarters were located in the house

23 of Cazim Patkovic. After that time, and that is to say

24 immediately before it was transferred, it was first the

25 Cazim Patkovic house, and after a certain amount of

Page 6557

1 time it was in the fire brigade station, and then to

2 another locality, a firm which collected waste

3 products, so that was where it was afterwards.

4 Q. All right. Now, you've described the

5 establishment of the war presidency by the Muslim

6 political leadership in Vitez in January of 1993; do

7 you remember that? Isn't it true that the war

8 presidency had to be set up by a municipal assembly?

9 A. Yes, that the war presidency was formed on

10 the basis of statements from delegates, members of the

11 municipal assembly, and that the necessary number of

12 deputies was required, and with their signature and

13 acquiescence, they set up a war presidency.

14 Q. Two other members of the war presidency in

15 addition to yourself, I take it, were Sefkija Dzidic,

16 the military commander of the forces in Stari Vitez;

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Also Saban Mahmutovic, who was the chief of

20 the police on the Muslim side; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So as of January 1993, you essentially had

23 two parallel governments; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. One Croat, one Muslim, operating side by side

Page 6558

1 at the same time and in the same municipality; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Including two separate police forces and two

5 separate police stations?

6 A. Later on there was the establishment of joint

7 co-operation and joint action. What we wanted to do

8 was to link this up, and I know that at that time, when

9 it came to a determination of functions, we would

10 contact the other side, so to speak, that is to say,

11 the Croat side. I know that when I wanted to set up

12 co-operation and the work of the civil defence units,

13 then we had a joint meeting and established a sort of

14 joint body for civil defence, a municipal body, so that

15 on the Croatian side, the Croatian side nominated Rudo

16 Strbac, appointed him for civilian matters, and for

17 military matters, they appointed Marko Krezic. At the

18 time he was defence secretary for the Vitez

19 municipality.

20 On the other side, so to speak, I was in

21 charge of civilian matters, so that we tried to have a

22 joint body for civil defence purposes and activities,

23 whereas Suljo Kalco, Sulejman Kalco was his name, he

24 was in charge of military affairs on behalf of the

25 army, so that in a way, this was to have been, at that

Page 6559

1 time, teamwork on the part of the civil defence teams.

2 There was close co-operation --

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zeco, I'm going to interrupt

4 you. If anybody wants any more detail, they'll ask.

5 If you would keep your answers as short as possible, we

6 will be able to get on quickly and will finish your

7 evidence as soon as we can.

8 Yes, have you got very much more,

9 Mr. Sayers?

10 MR. SAYERS: I would think about 20 minutes,

11 Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 MR. SAYERS: If I may.

14 Q. What you're saying, Mr. Zeco, is that from

15 the perspective of the Muslim leadership, there was a

16 civilian arm and a military arm; right?

17 A. Something like that.

18 Q. The same thing was true with respect to the

19 HVO government, wasn't it? You had a civilian

20 administration in Vitez and then a military arm too?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The name of the head of the civilian

23 government in Vitez was Ivica Santic, wasn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Santic, the mayor, was the brother of

Page 6560

1 Zvonko Santic, the gentleman who gave you lodging in

2 May of 1993; isn't that true?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Then the military arm of the HVO, if you

5 like, in Vitez, was headed by whom?

6 A. The military component in Vitez was led by

7 Mario Cerkez.

8 Q. Did you ever meet Colonel Blaskic?

9 A. I believe that I recall that Blaskic was the

10 commander of units for the Central Bosnia area.

11 Q. On the subject of loyalty oaths, it's true,

12 isn't it, that only about ten or so people actually

13 lost their jobs as a result of refusal to sign these

14 oaths?

15 A. I guess it is possible. As far as I know,

16 those who had some kind of a position and who did not

17 sign, I know that several of those lost their jobs in

18 the Vitez municipality organs, whereas while this issue

19 was being considered, that is --

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... it's

21 true that only about ten or so people lost their jobs,

22 and that is true, isn't it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You did not lose your job, did you, as a

25 veterinary practitioner, if you like?

Page 6561

1 A. The veterinary station was a public

2 institution with its own rules and regulations. It was

3 only controlled by the municipal authorities

4 indirectly.

5 Q. You didn't lose your job, did you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Nor did your wife, did she?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, four years ago, you gave a statement to

10 the Prosecution where you stated that you believed that

11 Mr. Skopljak was actually in charge of the civilian

12 government in Vitez. Is that still your view?

13 A. That who was heading the government, did you

14 mention?

15 Q. Pero Skopljak.

16 A. No. The head of the government, that was the

17 HVO government, and it was headed at that time by the

18 mayor, Ivica Santic.

19 Q. All right. Let me just read you a statement

20 from page 3 of your July 12 and 14, 1995, statement.

21 You say, quote: "The representatives of the Croats

22 were Skopljak, Pero," and some other names. "The mayor

23 was Santic Ivica, but my opinion was that in actuality,

24 the man in charge was Skopljak Pero, because he was in

25 command of the HVO. The official representative of the

Page 6562

1 civil authorities was Santic Ivica, but the HVO and its

2 leader, Skopljak, had the real power. It was so

3 obvious that Skopljak Pero was in charge."

4 Now, do you remember making that statement?

5 A. In that sense, yes, that statement of mine is

6 correct, yes.

7 Q. So it was actually Mr. Skopljak who was in

8 charge of the civilian government and not Mr. Santic,

9 is what you're saying?

10 A. No. No, officially, in an official sense,

11 Ivica Santic was the representative of authority in the

12 Vitez municipality government. But Pero Skopljak was

13 also in the government, and his influence was crucial

14 and significant in resolving all types of situations

15 which had arisen. That is how my statement was

16 framed.

17 Q. All right. Let me turn to another subject,

18 which is your conversation with Mr. Kordic's father,

19 Pero Kordic, in January of 1993.

20 That conversation occurred after fighting had

21 broken out in Busovaca in that month; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Isn't it true that the Muslim forces in

24 Busovaca were responsible for launching an attack on

25 that town in January of 1993, sir?

Page 6563

1 A. I did not analyse the situation that

2 developed. I only know that in Busovaca, the legal

3 authority was suspended and the power was taken over by

4 the HVO. It established its own authority in the

5 territory of the Busovaca municipality.

6 Q. Did you hear about the massacre of 12 Croats

7 at the village of Dusina on the 26th of January of

8 1993?

9 A. I have heard of it.

10 Q. And you spoke to Mr. Kordic after that

11 massacre, didn't you, sir?

12 A. Yes, we spoke after that.

13 Q. Turning, sir, to the testimony that you gave

14 regarding the fighting that broke out on April the

15 16th, as I understand it, you were arrested by HVO

16 soldiers dressed in combat gear and camouflage on that

17 morning; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You were taken about 20 metres, if you like,

20 from your house to the veterinarian station and

21 basically detained in your office; correct?

22 A. It's more like 50 to 100 metres.

23 Q. Do you remember that the night before, you

24 had actually recommended calling a meeting of the war

25 presidency to discuss the elaboration of plans to

Page 6564

1 protect Muslims in the case of an HVO attack?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, on this map that we've been looking at,

4 this photocopy, Rijeka appears to be about one

5 kilometre or less from Kruscica; would that be fair to

6 say?

7 A. Well, it is -- the area of Kruscica is kind

8 of set in, that area of Kruscica where the local

9 commune of Rijeka is, around the river.

10 Q. Where is it?

11 A. Specifically, my house and the veterinarian

12 station are about 500 to 1.000 metres, as the crow

13 flies, to Kruscica.

14 Q. On April the 16th of 1993, Kruscica was the

15 headquarters of the 325th Mountain Brigade of the

16 Muslim forces, commanded by Sifet Sivro; correct?

17 A. I believe that at that time, the commander

18 was Dzenanovic, Esad Dzenanovic, on the 16th.

19 Q. But the headquarters of the 325th Mountain

20 Brigade were located in Kruscica on April the 16th;

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, you were not maltreated in any way when

24 you were taken to the Hotel Vitez on May the 8th; is

25 that correct, sir? This is after the military plans

Page 6565

1 had been found in your car.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Following your release from the Hotel Vitez,

4 it's true that Dr. Mujezinovic wrote you a falsified

5 diagnosis of heart problems, and that resulted in your

6 transport to Travnik hospital; correct?

7 A. I do have a heart condition, for your

8 information. I did have four bypasses, and

9 Dr. Mujezinovic was my physician. In 1990, I was

10 operated on, my heart. So, in fact, I am a heart

11 patient, if you will. So nothing was really forged,

12 but we made an agreement because I was in some sort of

13 detention, and we agreed that he would help me to be

14 moved to the Travnik hospital, which was done. But not

15 as a forgery; it had to do with a real situation.

16 Q. I don't mean to belabour the point, Mr. Zeco,

17 but on page 8 of the statement that you gave four years

18 ago, here's what you said: You were able to arrange

19 for Dr. Mujezinovic "... to give me a falsified paper

20 stating that I needed treatment at hospital, and it was

21 because of this that I was taken to Travnik hospital on

22 the 13th of May, 1993, and that is how I escaped from

23 Vitez." Is that correct?

24 A. You cannot say that it was falsified. I

25 forged -- I agreed that with Dr. Mujezinovic's help, I

Page 6566

1 was transferred from Vitez to Travnik, and that was an

2 arrangement that was made. But, indeed, in 1990, I had

3 a heart surgery, I had four bypasses done then, and so

4 I don't know about the word "falsified" or "forged." I

5 do not agree with that wording.

6 Q. But you do remember signing each page or

7 initialling each page of the statement and --

8 JUDGE MAY: I think, Mr. Sayers, we've got

9 the point, so far as it helps us.

10 MR. SAYERS: I don't mean to beat it to

11 death, Your Honour, and I'll move on.

12 Q. Is it true that your veterinarian assistant

13 was stopped, sir, shortly before the April 1993

14 conflict and was discovered to have arms in his car?

15 A. Yes. This was Cazim Patkovic, who was a

16 member of the army, and he helped out at the

17 veterinarian station. He had been a member of the TO

18 at that time. I did not follow their activities; they

19 had their own tasks and their own business. I know

20 that as a member of the TO, that is, of the BH army, he

21 had his military activities, and I know of an incident

22 when his car was taken and a certain amount of

23 ammunition was found. I did go to the municipality to

24 have that car returned. It is a fact that this did

25 happen, but he was a member of the Territorial Defence,

Page 6567

1 that is, a member of the BH army.

2 Q. All right. Let's turn to the subject of the

3 defence plans that were discovered in your car.

4 You'd actually temporarily disabled the car

5 by disconnecting cables in it, had you not?

6 A. Yes, I did so every night because the

7 situation had already been created where cars were

8 disappearing from garages, and this was a measure that

9 I took to prevent that, so that the car could not be

10 started.

11 Q. All right. These plans that were discovered

12 in your car actually described what would be done in

13 the event that fighting should break out or that there

14 should be an attack in certain areas; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. For example, if there were to be an attack on

17 the village that you lived in, Rijeka, there would be

18 an evacuation of the civilian population to the

19 headquarters --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- of the 325th Mountain Brigade in Kruscica;

22 correct?

23 A. No, not to the brigade command, in any event,

24 but in the area where there was some natural shelter,

25 where the civilian population could be sheltered, and

Page 6568

1 this was the area of Kruscica, which is hilly, which is

2 forested. It had nothing to do with the brigade

3 command being located in Kruscica.

4 Q. All right. The civilians who lived in the

5 Kolonija section of Vitez would be evacuated to the

6 town of Gacice or the village of Gacice just to the

7 southeast of Vitez; correct?

8 A. Yes, and then again, this is an area which

9 would have the same natural features, I mean, the one

10 in Gacice.

11 Q. All right. Similarly, your plans also

12 contemplated what would happen in the event of an

13 attack on the villages of Santici and Nadioci; correct?

14 A. Again certain tasks were supposed to be

15 assigned. Certain people should have been tasked with

16 the protection of the civilian population in that area

17 and do everything that was necessary. In all the areas

18 where the Muslim population lived, there were a number

19 of persons who were tasked with the protection of the

20 civilian population which was threatened in these

21 built-up areas where they lived.

22 Q. Just to get back to the question that I asked

23 you, sir, specifically, your defence plans dealt with

24 what would happen to the civilian population in the

25 event of an HVO attack on the villages of Santici and

Page 6569

1 Nadioci; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, if I might just ask the usher to put

4 Z2767 on the ELMO, I'd just like you to point out where

5 Santici and Nadioci are. If you could use the pointer,

6 sir.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. All right. You are now pointing to Santici

9 or Nadioci?

10 A. Nadioci [indicates].

11 Q. All right.

12 A. This is Santici [indicates].

13 Q. Could you just point out where Ahmici is,

14 please?

15 A. Between Nadioci and Santici.

16 Q. All right. Could you tell the Trial Chamber

17 what the plans called for in the event that Ahmici were

18 to be attacked?

19 A. The area of Ahmici, Ahmici and the

20 surrounding area, was supposed to be secured in terms

21 of protection of the civilian population so that the

22 population in this area would be safe.

23 Q. All right. So your plans actually

24 contemplated what would occur in the event of an HVO

25 attack on the village of Ahmici; is that right?

Page 6570

1 A. Yes. Since there were natural conditions

2 which were conducive to protection, that if there were

3 any combat to take place there, that the population

4 around Ahmici would be protected, and the population

5 did have a potential of being protected in that way.

6 Q. You had actually devised these plans after

7 consultation with the military commanders, Sulejman

8 Kalco and Sifet Sivro; correct?

9 A. They took it upon themselves to consider this

10 plan from the military standpoint and to do their part;

11 that is, to give their own solutions from the military

12 standpoint. So they were in charge of this military

13 side of this issue, to find the right solution.

14 Q. That's because by this time, by April the

15 16th of 1993, it was obvious to you and your

16 colleagues, both civil and military, of the war

17 presidency that conflicts between the HVO and the

18 Muslim forces in the Lasva Valley were inevitable;

19 correct?

20 A. After -- that was the assumption given the

21 unfolding of the events.

22 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, you mentioned

23 the village of Vrhovine. I only have one question for

24 you on this. All of the Croats who used to live in

25 this village were cleaned out of the town in 1993,

Page 6571

1 weren't they?

2 A. Personally, I don't know that, with the

3 exception of further out towards Nadioci, that there

4 were any Croat families living in Vrhovine. In the

5 village of Vrhovine itself, there were no Croats, but

6 to the northeast, I know that that's where Mirko

7 Samir's family is from, so there may have been some

8 Croatian families there.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zeco, I'm going to interrupt

10 you.

11 Now, Mr. Sayers, I wish to finish your

12 cross-examination today, please.

13 MR. SAYERS: Believe me, Your Honour, I do

14 too, and I think that I have about another five

15 minutes.

16 Q. Turning to the truck bomb incident, sir,

17 everything that you know about that incident you were

18 told by others; isn't that correct?

19 A. What I just said a moment ago is what Zeljko

20 Matkovic had told me, is what I knew. He provided the

21 information about the bomb, so he was the one who

22 transmitted this information to all of us who were

23 detained in the veterinary station, and this is what I

24 was referring to when I said what I knew about it.

25 Q. And I think we agree on this, though: What

Page 6572

1 you know about that is derived exclusively from what

2 you were told by other people; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the same thing goes with respect to

5 casualties that you described in the trench-digging

6 incidents, the people that were supposedly shot or died

7 during that. You didn't see any of these people shot

8 yourself, did you?

9 A. This is mostly on the basis of people who

10 were sent out to dig and who had come back from that.

11 Q. But the point is, what you've told the Trial

12 Chamber is essentially what you were told by other

13 people, isn't it?

14 A. Yes, on that issue.

15 Q. Yes. Now, you also gave some testimony with

16 respect to stories about a threat to blow up the

17 Dubravica school in the event of a continued assault by

18 Muslim forces; do you remember that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Isn't it true that on the 22nd of April,

21 1993, there was actually a cease-fire agreement that

22 was signed by General Sefer Halilovic, Brigadier

23 Milivoj Petkovic, and countersigned by General Philippe

24 Morillon and by John Pierre Thebault from the ECMM?

25 A. At that time, I did not know this. While I

Page 6573

1 was in the camp -- that is, throughout the period which

2 I spent in detention -- I did not know of that.

3 Q. But all you knew is that somehow the fighting

4 around the school stopped on or around April the 22nd,

5 1993; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Just a few final questions for

8 you, sir. Were you aware that the town of Travnik was

9 attacked by Muslim forces on June the 8th and captured

10 on June the 12th, 1993?

11 A. On 8 June? I did not have such information.

12 Q. Were you aware that the town of Kakanj had

13 been attacked on June the 9th by Muslim forces and

14 captured on June the 13th of 1993?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you ever hear that large numbers of

17 refugees, Croat refugees, were the result of the

18 Travnik fighting and the Kakanj fighting and the

19 capture of those two cities by Muslim forces in the

20 early summer of 1993?

21 A. I know this fact, that there was a large

22 number of Croat refugees in that area, yes.

23 Q. Did you know that the town of Fojnica had

24 been attacked and captured by Muslim forces in July of

25 1939, and that resulted in a large efflux of Croat

Page 6574

1 refugees as well?

2 A. With respect to the towns which you

3 mentioned, my understanding was that those areas had

4 been defended. Because in these areas -- and I know

5 this because I live in the wide area of Zenica -- I

6 know that it was the Croats from those areas who

7 voluntarily and under other people's influence had

8 left, and that the legal authorities had stayed on the

9 ground. I know this because I am in such an area,

10 because currently, I reside in the Zenica region.

11 Q. All right. Finally, were you aware that the

12 town of Vares had been attacked and captured on

13 November the 1st and 2nd, 1993, and that resulted in

14 about 7.000 Croat refugees leaving the town?

15 A. Yes, I know that, that this also happened in

16 the territory of Vares municipality.

17 Q. My final questions for you, Mr. Zeco, are

18 these: Is it true that in your house in Rijeka, right

19 now, Croat refugees from somewhere live?

20 A. I know.

21 Q. Do you know where they are refugees from,

22 sir?

23 A. I know. In my home, until recently, in my

24 house, there were Ivica Livancic, who is a Croat from

25 Dubravica, and even to date, I have an official

Page 6575

1 document from the Vitez municipality, so I received a

2 document from the people who currently are using my

3 house, that they had paid 1.600 German marks, that they

4 had paid that money in order to be allowed to move into

5 my house, and now they have officially stated that they

6 refused to leave the house because they did not

7 recognise any of Westendorp's laws. I have this

8 document in my possession. This was a document that

9 was drafted officially in the Vitez municipality.

10 Q. Do I take it, sir, that you now live in

11 Zenica, the city of Zenica?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the house that you currently live in, who

14 was that formerly owned by?

15 A. It was a social apartment. Formerly it was

16 occupied by a person who lived [sic] in a local

17 transport company, and he filed a request to be given

18 back his apartment, and I was then asked to come and

19 give an official statement. I did accept that and

20 recognised that he should come back, but that my

21 problem should also be resolved, because right now I

22 have a provisional decision which allows me to stay in

23 this apartment with my wife while my children have left

24 Bosnia and have moved to the United States.

25 Q. Finally, sir, what was the ethnicity of the

Page 6576

1 person who used to live in your apartment before you?

2 A. It was -- the person was of Croatian ethnic

3 background, and the other persons who are there are

4 also ethnic Croats.

5 MR. SAYERS: No further questions, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

8 Mr. Kovacic, tomorrow morning, for your

9 cross-examination, I hope you can be expeditious.

10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Tomorrow

11 afternoon.

12 JUDGE MAY: Tomorrow afternoon, it's pointed

13 out, not tomorrow morning. Half past two tomorrow

14 afternoon.

15 I hope you can be expeditious, so that we can

16 get on to another witness.

17 MR. KOVACIC: I'll do my best, sir.

18 JUDGE MAY: Well, you've got 24 hours to

19 prepare --

20 MR. KOVACIC: Yes.

21 JUDGE MAY: -- and sharpen it.

22 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.

23 JUDGE MAY: One point about the transcript.

24 I see that days 53 to 56 seem to be missing; that today

25 is described as day 54. It should be day 57. No doubt

Page 6577

1 that's being attended to.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

3 4.25 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

4 the 14th day of September, 1999,

5 at 2.30 p.m.