Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11208

1 Tuesday, 7th December, 1999

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

6 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario

7 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

9 MR. NICE: Before returning to evidence, can

10 I mention, I think, three matters in private session

11 because it, in part, relates to confidential material.

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14 [Open session]

15 Examined by Ms. Somers: [Resumed]

16 Q. Looking to the period of late spring to early

17 summer of 1992, are you aware of any agreements that

18 may have been made between Serbs and Croats in the

19 areas of Katica and Podjele, let's say May of 1992?

20 A. Yes, yes. The Serbs wanted to leave Busovaca

21 to go to their own entity, among their own people, and

22 the Serbs made an agreement with the Croats to let them

23 pass so that they could leave unhindered. And in

24 return, in agreement with the officers in charge of the

25 barracks, the Croats would enter the barracks first and

Page 11215

1 the weapons that would be left behind in the barracks

2 would be given to them, as well as their things, their

3 livestock, their entire property. They left all of

4 that to the Croats. And among others, Zdravko

5 Bilanovic left his apartment, or actually he sold some

6 of his things to Franjo Sliskovic, who afterwards

7 married Dario Kordic's sister-in-law.

8 Q. Yesterday, the barracks you talked about,

9 that was Sajtovici barracks, are you referring also to

10 the Sajtovici barracks near Koanik?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who is Franjo Sliskovic?

13 A. Franjo Sliskovic was an officer, an HVO

14 officer, and he's Anto Sliskovic's brother, Anto being

15 one of the main commanders in Busovaca, and he married

16 the sister of Dario Kordic's wife and he moved into the

17 apartment of Zdravko Bilanovic.

18 Q. Did you personally see him in that apartment?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know whether or not Anto Sliskovic

21 also took an apartment from a Serb?

22 A. Yes. Anto Sliskovic and his wife are living

23 to this day in the apartment of Mico Bulatovic. He

24 left his own apartment that he had been allotted by his

25 company, from the firm he was working in. It was too

Page 11216

1 small for him. Then he moved into this bigger

2 apartment right next to the municipality building, and

3 that is where he is living with his family, the

4 apartment having been owned by Mico Bulatovic.

5 Q. Do you know whether or not the Serbs who were

6 leaving the Busovaca municipality required any written

7 permission from the controlling HVO?

8 A. Yes, yes. They had to request permission

9 from the Croats to leave, because they, all of them,

10 left en masse. No one stayed behind, and they had to

11 have permission, and they were given an escort too by

12 HVO soldiers until they left the territory of Kiseljak,

13 as far as their entity.

14 Q. On the 25th of January, 1993, what happened,

15 and if you can say what time it happened?

16 A. In the morning on the 25th of January at

17 6.00, the sirens sounded, and we all went into shelters

18 and we hid there. We heard the shooting, detonations,

19 and we took shelter. The closest shelter for me was in

20 a Croat house. My husband, child, and myself, we hid

21 there. We were the only Muslims in that house. The

22 others were Serbs or Croats and their families.

23 However, about 7.00 in the morning, my

24 neighbour ran in and said that they had taken her

25 husband to a camp, and all the other men who had been

Page 11217

1 in the next-door shelter. She was crying. She didn't

2 know what to do. She said, "My husband was there too,

3 and we didn't know what would happen next." As most of

4 the people were Croats in this shelter, they didn't

5 expect any Muslims.

6 In any event, they rounded up all the men,

7 even men under age and elderly men, over 65, and they

8 took them all to the Kaonik prison.

9 Q. When you say "rounded up men," of what ethnic

10 group were these men?

11 A. Muslims, Muslims, all the Muslims. They took

12 them to the barracks in Kaonik. In Sajtovici, there

13 was a camp for Muslims, for Muslim men, and they

14 detained them there for several days.

15 Q. Was your husband one of the men who was taken

16 to Kaonik and detained?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How long was he there?

19 A. Seven or eight days, until the exchange.

20 Q. Did your husband tell you what he had to do

21 while he was at Kaonik?

22 A. Yes. He was forced to dig trenches at

23 Strane, Loncari, at Kula, at Polje, Ravno, the village

24 of Ravno. He was digging trenches there around the

25 clock. They were mistreated while digging, beaten.

Page 11218

1 Q. Do you know whether or not anyone with your

2 husband or your husband was taken to Katici or

3 Merdani? If you know, please tell us.

4 A. My husband was not taken to Katici or

5 Merdani, but he did dig at Skradno.

6 Q. How many brothers do you have?

7 A. I have three brothers.

8 Q. Were they in the shelter with you on the 25th

9 of January? If not, where were they?

10 A. No, they were not with me in the shelter.

11 They were near their own house. They were hiding in

12 the attic of a neighbour's, under the roof. That is

13 where they were.

14 Q. Were you able to have contact with them while

15 they were hiding?

16 A. Through relatives, yes. When I went to see

17 them and see how they were doing, all they said was

18 that they were up there, that they were all right, that

19 they were getting food from time to time and so on when

20 there was time to take food up there to them.

21 MS. SOMERS: We will return to discussing

22 your brothers in a moment. I would ask for a brief

23 private session.

24 [Private session]

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14 [Open session]

15 MS. SOMERS:

16 Q. Returning to the discussion about your

17 brothers, did they live through the attack -- I'm

18 sorry. Did they survive the incidents in Busovaca?

19 Were they taken prisoner, and if so, what happened?

20 A. When my brothers were arrested, one day -- it

21 was sometime at the beginning of February or the end of

22 January -- I came to visit them, and I saw the door

23 leading to the loft had been broken. Something had

24 obviously happened, and a member of the family told me

25 that they had been taken away an hour and a half or two

Page 11235

1 before I had arrived, that they were beaten up right

2 there, that their documents were taken from them,

3 including driving licenses, which were torn up. They

4 were tied up and forced forward. And as they were

5 walking along the street, Anto Sliskovic was personally

6 watching their arrest and overseeing it. And Dragic,

7 who arrested my brother, asked Anto, "What am I going

8 to do with them, Major?" and he said, "Take them

9 there," and they took them away.

10 And as soon as I arrived, I hurried to see

11 what had happened to them, because a member of my

12 family told me that shortly after they had left, she

13 heard a burst of fire and she thought they had been

14 killed. So I went along the road and I met a man, and

15 he told me, "All three Mujahedins are lying in front of

16 the morgue."

17 Along the way, I met Dusko Grubesic. I went

18 up to him and I asked him, "Why have you killed my

19 brothers?"

20 Q. Who is Dusko Grubesic?

21 A. Dusko Grubesic is the main commander of the

22 Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade in Busovaca, and I went

23 up to him.

24 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... about

25 why he may have killed your brothers?

Page 11236

1 A. He said to me, "I ordered that not a single

2 Muslim from Busovaca may be killed from now on." And I

3 said, "But Dusko, they had driving licenses with their

4 address in Vitez, because they took their driving test

5 in Vitez, so that the address was indicated on the

6 license plate, and they may have thought they were from

7 Vitez, if you had given orders not to kill people only

8 from Busovaca and it said 'Vitez' on the driving

9 license." And then he said to me, "Wait there," and

10 this was just across the way from the church, "I'll go

11 and check." And he ran up the steps. I didn't have

12 any patience to wait. I ran up after him, and Vlado

13 Cosic was there. They were dialing some numbers.

14 Q. Who is Vlado Cosic?

15 A. Vlado Cosic was a policeman in the civilian

16 police, and then later he joined the military police.

17 He was in black and he had a white belt, and he was

18 sitting there.

19 Q. Before you go any further, I want to make

20 sure I understood. What exactly were the words of

21 Dusko Grubesic to your question?

22 A. He said to me, "I have given orders that not

23 a single other Muslim from Busovaca may be killed."

24 And then I explained to him that my brothers' documents

25 had "Vitez" indicated on them.

Page 11237

1 Q. Thank you very much. Did you ever come to

2 find your brothers?

3 A. Yes. Dusko was checking. He called up the

4 police in Kaonik and he couldn't find them, so he was

5 worried too, and he told me to go home and that in an

6 hour's time he would send the police to check where

7 they were.

8 I didn't have any patience to wait, so I went

9 to the civilian police, and the military police was

10 there too and there were military men there. Everyone

11 was there, the military and the civilian police. I

12 asked them for an explanation. They told me that they

13 were not there.

14 Then I went to the morgue to check there, and

15 I came across a friend whom I knew and I asked, "Have

16 my brothers been killed? Are they lying there?" And

17 he told me, "No," that they were someone else, some

18 other people.

19 At the end, they were found at Kaonik. A

20 friend of my brother's told me they had reached Kaonik,

21 and afterwards my brothers told me they had been held

22 for about two hours in the toilet in the bus station,

23 and after that they were transferred to Kaonik.

24 Before going to Kaonik, before they left to

25 Kaonik --

Page 11238

1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers,

2 could you please bear in mind that your questions have

3 to directly concern events appearing in the

4 indictment. So will you, please, stick to that,

5 because we cannot, as you know, recount all the events

6 in detail that occurred so long ago. So, please, limit

7 yourself to the things that are directly related to

8 what we are dealing with in this trial.

9 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. There

10 were two points that had to be made, and I'm afraid

11 they've gotten a little bit gone around.

12 JUDGE MAY: Let's go on to paragraph 15.

13 There's no need to deal with Kaonik or with the 25th of

14 January, about which we've heard.

15 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Judge. You're

16 satisfied with the Kula digging?

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, yes.

18 MS. SOMERS: Okay, fine. Thank you very

19 much. I'm sorry, which number was it?

20 JUDGE MAY: 15.

21 MS. SOMERS: 15; fine.

22 Q. Are you familiar with a woman named Davorka

23 Kordic?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE MAY: This is objected to. I hadn't

Page 11239

1 read it. This is about the accused's sister, yes. It

2 seems to me that it's not relevant, what the accused's

3 sister said.

4 MS. SOMERS: There are relationships, I

5 think, that the Court should be made aware of, which I

6 think the names have come before this Court on numerous

7 occasions and I believe --

8 JUDGE MAY: Right. The sister, and she's the

9 girlfriend of Pasko Ljubicic, according to this.

10 MS. SOMERS: Yes. I wanted to get that

11 evidence in and just the relationship to the radio

12 station, which I think is important and does go to the

13 persecution counts.

14 JUDGE MAY: Well, speaking for myself, I'm

15 not going to admit the evidence of what the sister

16 said. Now, let's move on.

17 MS. SOMERS:

18 Q. Can I just ask, please, are you familiar with

19 any relationship between, so that we have it in

20 evidence, between Davorka Kordic and Pasko Ljubicic?

21 A. Yes. Davorka Kordic and Pasko Ljubicic for

22 some time had a romantic relationship. They were boy

23 and girlfriend, and it was a big love affair between

24 them.

25 Q. Was it during the war?

Page 11240

1 A. It started sometime before the war, and

2 during the war.

3 Q. And did they ever marry, to your knowledge?

4 A. No, they never married. At the end, they

5 parted, and he married another girl from Vitez and she

6 married someone else.

7 Q. Did you ever see, on TV Busovaca or any other

8 television station, Dario Kordic and any HVO officials?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you describe the times briefly that you

11 saw them?

12 A. I saw them sometime in 1992, June, July, when

13 the HVO troops were taking an oath of allegiance. And

14 Dusko Grubesic lined up his troops belonging to the

15 Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade, and he saluted to Dario

16 Kordic and offered him his troops to review. And Dario

17 reported back, and Dusko Grubesic reported to him.

18 Kordic saluted back, and Dusko Grubesic reported to

19 Kordic.

20 Q. Was Mr. Kordic [realtime transcript read in

21 error "Dusko Grubesic"] in uniform at the time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you recall any press conferences at which

24 any HVO officials, other than --

25 A. Yes.

Page 11241

1 Q. -- other than Dario Kordic, or Kordic with

2 other officials, were broadcast on television, and if

3 so, do you recall if any of the content was offensive

4 to any of the Muslim people, if you recall?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me for interrupting.

7 There's a correction that Ms. Verhaag has indicated.

8 It should be on line 3, 32(3). It's not Dusko Grubesic

9 in uniform. Dario Kordic in uniform.

10 Q. I'm sorry, please continue.

11 A. What was the question? Could you please

12 repeat it?

13 Q. The question was did you ever witness on

14 television any press conferences in which Kordic, --

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. -- or Kordic in combination with other

17 officials, spoke, and was there any content offensive

18 to the Muslim people?

19 A. Yes. This was happening almost every

20 Tuesday. There was a press centre at Busovaca

21 Television, and it was broadcast on Tuesdays. When

22 journalists -- I don't know which journalists

23 attended. They asked questions, and the propaganda

24 always was that an HVO brigade or soldiers had been

25 attacked by Muslim forces or the Mujahedin, and words

Page 11242

1 like that were used.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. They were always being attacked.

4 Q. Returning to your husband's situation after

5 his release from Kaonik, after he was exchanged, did he

6 remain at liberty, a free person?

7 A. No. After he was exchanged, he came home,

8 fearing that something could happen to me and the

9 child. He was free for only three days, and then

10 military policemen came to fetch him and took him again

11 to Kaonik, forcing him to dig trenches at Strane, Kula,

12 Loncari, wherever they needed them.

13 Q. Was he sleeping at Kaonik or was it a

14 different type of arrangement?

15 A. When they took him for the first time, he

16 slept at Kaonik for two days. Then he was released

17 home, and he was taken to dig trenches from our house.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. And then after some time, a courier would

20 come with written call-up papers.

21 Q. Where were you living in mid-May of 1993?

22 A. I was living in my mother's house, because I

23 had been chased out of my apartment. A military

24 policeman came and told me that I had to leave my

25 apartment in five minutes' time, to pick up my personal

Page 11243

1 belongings. I collected some clothes for the child and

2 left, and I asked him, "Where should I go?" And he

3 said, "I don't care where you go." I asked him, "Let

4 me go to Zenica." He said, "You can't, but see where

5 you can go."

6 Q. How long had you lived in the house where you

7 had been evicted from?

8 A. From 1986 until that time when these

9 policemen forced me out.

10 Q. Did you need permission to live in your

11 mother's house after you were evicted from your house,

12 and if so, who gave you that permission?

13 A. I went because they were evicting people from

14 all houses and they were settling refugees in those

15 houses, people from Stranjani and the surroundings of

16 Zenica, and they were being put up in these houses, the

17 families having been thrown out. And so I feared that

18 would happen to me a second time, so I went to the

19 Sumarija building and asked Dusko Grubesic to give me

20 some kind of certificate so they wouldn't throw me out

21 again. I told him that I had been evicted and that I

22 could be evicted again, and then he gave me a piece of

23 paper saying that I would be safe in my mother's house

24 and that no one would throw me out again.

25 MS. SOMERS: I would ask the usher --

Page 11244

1 A. However --

2 MS. SOMERS: -- excuse me -- to please

3 present Exhibit Z1727.

4 A. Yes. This document -- I went to Dusko

5 Grubesic, to Sumarija. I found him there upstairs, and

6 he told Dragan Tomacic to write that nobody should

7 disturb me, that I should be safe there.

8 Q. Is this a copy of the document that you were

9 given at the time?

10 A. Yes. Yes, it is a copy.

11 Q. One quick question about you leaving your own

12 home. Do you know if a Croat family moved in after you

13 were evicted from your home?

14 A. Yes. That very moment I left, they took a

15 Croatian family inside. When I came back to pick up

16 some things I had forgotten, the next day, I knocked at

17 the door and asked them whether they would let me take

18 some of the child's things and the photographs, and she

19 said, "No, you can't take anything. I've lost many of

20 my own souvenirs, and you have nothing to look for

21 here."

22 Q. Do you know a woman named Fatima Ibriljic,

23 and if so, how do you know her?

24 A. Yes, I do. She was living very close by to

25 my house. She was married in Visoko, her husband and

Page 11245

1 son were there, and she came to pick up some documents

2 in January. She was there when the war broke out. She

3 couldn't leave; she was pregnant --

4 Q. What did she want from you?

5 A. She asked me, as I was more familiar with

6 Busovaca and its people, to help her to get out, and I

7 promised that we would go to Frano Kristo to ask him to

8 let her go because she was about to deliver and there

9 was no delivery ward there. So we went to see Frano.

10 Frano agreed to see me and not her. She was crying.

11 On the way, we met Dario Kordic, he was

12 coming out of the church with his two bodyguards and a

13 team of reporters from Radio Television Busovaca. I

14 tried to approach him but his bodyguards wanted to

15 prevent me; however, Dario allowed me to come up to

16 him. I said, "Hello," and I asked, "Where have you

17 been? I can't see you on television and we haven't

18 been seeing you at all," and he said he had been in

19 Novi Travnik and that because of the war he couldn't

20 come to Busovaca for some time.

21 Then I asked him if I could go to Zenica,

22 that I couldn't endure it there anymore, that I had

23 been evicted from my apartment, and he said, "What are

24 you going to do in Zenica? There is starvation

25 there." I said, "Nevermind. I'd like to go. I can't

Page 11246

1 carry on here anymore. You know what's happening

2 here. And if I can't go, could at least Fatima go

3 because she's pregnant?"

4 Q. Did he help you?

5 A. Yes, he helped Fatima. He told me, "Go and

6 see Frano Kristo and tell him that I said that she

7 should be given a permit to leave Busovaca." Then I

8 said, "What if Frano doesn't believe me, because I have

9 already been to see him? He may not believe me that I

10 have seen you," because it was very hard to see him and

11 even harder to talk to him. He said, "If Frano doesn't

12 give it to you, come and look for me." And I asked

13 him, "Where can I find you? Give me your telephone

14 number so I can look for you." Then he told his

15 bodyguard to accompany us to Frano's so that Frano

16 should give Fatima the certificate that she could leave

17 Busovaca, which Frano did. A day or two later, Fatima

18 left with an UNPROFOR ambulance. She was driven to

19 Zenica. But I was not allowed to leave; I stayed on.

20 Q. Are you familiar with a murder of an

21 individual named Ibro Hodzic in Busovaca in January of

22 1993 --

23 JUDGE MAY: Before we go to that, can we have

24 a date for this conversation with Mr. Kordic? Can the

25 witness give us a date, roughly?

Page 11247

1 MS. SOMERS:

2 Q. Ms. Neslanovic, you've heard the Judge's

3 question. Are you able to give us a month, an

4 approximate month and a year for this conversation?

5 A. It was in 1993, I think in July. June or

6 July, roughly about then.

7 Q. Returning to the death of Ibro Hodzic, were

8 you aware of it?

9 A. Yes, I heard about this event. They were

10 saying that Ibro Hodzic had been killed in his

11 apartment by Dragic --

12 Q. Were you aware of any suspects?

13 A. Yes. They said that Condra had done it.

14 Before that, on the 25th of January, Mirsad Delija had

15 been killed in his house when they were searching

16 Muslim houses allegedly looking for weapons and who

17 knows what else, and Mirsad Delija was then killed in

18 his own house, and then Ibro Hodzic later on.

19 Q. Let's return to Condra. Did you personally

20 ever have any encounters of any type with Condra?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. How did that happen?

23 A. Condra would come across the way to the house

24 where I was living to see some friends who had moved in

25 there from Zenica. He and Dragic, and Cicko, they

Page 11248

1 would gather there. There was a girl that they were

2 all courting, and that is why they would congregate

3 there.

4 Then one day, they were sitting there and

5 joking, and they took my son, who was playing in the

6 yard, they placed him against the wall, and they took a

7 pistol. They were playing around. Anyway, they put

8 him there like a target, and when they fired their

9 pistols, they would hit the facade, sometimes the roof

10 of the house, and then bits of tiles would fall on his

11 head. When the second shot was fired, my son yelled,

12 "Mummy." I heard the shots. I didn't know what was

13 happening. When I came out, I saw my son with his back

14 against the wall, he was terrified. I came up to him,

15 I placed him behind my back, and the person holding the

16 pistol, Cicko, said to me, "I could kill you too

17 without being held to account by anyone." I took the

18 child inside. I just left the house immediately and

19 went to see Branko Sliskovic and told him what had

20 happened.

21 Q. What did Branko Sliskovic say to you?

22 A. I told him who did it, and he said, "I'm

23 surprised that Condra Dragic should do that because

24 they are my Anto's escorts." He was surprised that

25 they should be behaving in that way, that they were not

Page 11249

1 with his Anto. They only escorted him -- they would

2 leave Anto only when they went on particular missions;

3 otherwise, they would always be with him. Then he said

4 he would call Anto.

5 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Somers, I think we've gone

6 far enough into this matter.

7 MS. SOMERS: Okay.

8 JUDGE MAY: Let us move on as quickly as

9 possible.

10 MS. SOMERS: If I may just link up Condra

11 directly through the next question.

12 Q. If you can tell us very quickly, did you go

13 to see Anto Sliskovic, and if so, was he alone?

14 A. Yes. After seeing Branko, he told me, "Go

15 and see my Anto. You know where he's working." So I

16 went to his office, Anto's office. I asked his

17 secretary whether I could see him.

18 Q. Was he alone?

19 A. No, he wasn't alone. Condra was already

20 sitting with him. When I came in to ask whether he

21 could see me, Condra was there, and then Anto refused

22 to receive me. He told me to come some other day.

23 Q. You mentioned earlier in connection with this

24 story that you were discussing in private session about

25 the Jokers. Were you ever told who commanded the

Page 11250

1 Jokers, and if so, who told you?

2 A. Daro said that he was a Joker, that Pasko

3 Ljubicic was their commander --

4 Q. Is Daro the same Darko who you referred to

5 earlier in the private session?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. What did he say?

8 A. He said that he was a soldier, that he was

9 getting his salary from Zagreb. I asked him how come

10 he had so much freedom, and he said that he was a

11 special soldier, he was not a front line soldier. He

12 went only on special missions. He differed from the

13 others. He had a higher salary than the others, that

14 his salary was coming from Zagreb, that this special

15 unit was being paid by Zagreb, and they were called the

16 Jokers.

17 Q. Did Daro tell you who commanded it? I'm

18 afraid I didn't hear your answer earlier.

19 A. Yes. He told me that Pasko Ljubicic was the

20 commander.

21 Q. Did Daro tell you what types of military

22 actions the Jokers engaged in?

23 A. Yes, he told me that they only went on

24 special assignments, if something had to be taken or

25 reconnoitred, and that they went on special missions

Page 11251

1 and then they would be free again, until the next

2 special assignment. They didn't go to the front, they

3 didn't go to the trenches, that he was a special

4 soldier, he told me.

5 Q. Briefly, why did you come in contact with

6 Daro? What brought you in contact with Daro?

7 A. There was a girl there who came from Guca

8 Gora as a refugee.

9 Q. Did you keep company with her?

10 A. Yes. Yes. There were no other young girls,

11 she was lonely, so I helped her a little.

12 Q. Were you with her when Daro came to see her?

13 A. Yes. Yes, we were together several times

14 when he would come. The two of us would be sitting

15 together and he would join us.

16 Q. And these conversations about the Jokers

17 occurred during those times?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you ever see Tihomir Blaskic in person?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you explain when and with whom, if with

22 anyone?

23 A. I would see him in the municipality; I would

24 see him with Dario Kordic; I would see him with

25 Kostroman; in the company of Zoran Maric. The leading

Page 11252

1 figures in Busovaca.

2 Q. Was he ever in the municipality building

3 where you were working?

4 A. Yes. Yes, several times.

5 Q. Did you ever see Anto Valenta in that

6 municipality building?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was he in the company of Kordic ever?

9 A. Yes. At the press centre conferences, on

10 television, they would appear together, and on other

11 occasions too. They were frequently together in

12 Dario's office and ...

13 Q. Can you describe where Dario Kordic had his

14 offices?

15 A. Dario Kordic had his office in the

16 municipality building, then in the post office, in the

17 basement, and at the Ivancica Villa, at Tisovac, in the

18 motel there.

19 Q. Did he always maintain his office in the

20 municipality building, even when he had other offices?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you happen to notice, in the time before

23 the attack, the HVO attack, on the 25th of January, in

24 which of these three offices Dario Kordic spent most of

25 his time?

Page 11253

1 A. In the post office and also at Tisovac, but

2 all these places are very close. So in the course of

3 the day, he could visit all three places.

4 Q. Do you know whether or not during the war

5 Dario Kordic's family, his wife and children, were

6 living with him in Busovaca?

7 A. Yes, they were living with him in Busovaca.

8 Q. Did you ever notice Dario Kordic to be gone

9 from Busovaca for several days at a time?

10 A. Yes. He wouldn't come to the office, we

11 wouldn't see him; otherwise, we would frequently come

12 across him, and then we would notice his absence of a

13 couple of days.

14 Q. Were you able to comment on the type of

15 transportation that would be available to HVO persons

16 in Busovaca, particularly HVO officials?

17 A. There were jeeps, luxury automobiles,

18 Mercedes, but mostly Land Rovers or jeeps, as we call

19 them.

20 Q. Do you know, were there any working

21 helicopters?

22 A. Yes, they would come too occasionally, not

23 frequently, but two or three times I saw them land at

24 the stadium in Busovaca.

25 Q. One final question tying up something you

Page 11254

1 said earlier. When you spoke of Dragic, Condra, and

2 Juka, were they all Croat HVO soldiers, to your

3 knowledge?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. SOMERS: No further questions.

7 Excuse me. If I could indulge the Court.

8 There was one exhibit that was attached and I didn't

9 realise it was attached to the back of Z1727. If the

10 usher could just point it out to the witness, it is

11 simply a confirmation of her leaving Busovaca, and that

12 would be the --

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. SOMERS: I've made a mistake. I beg your

15 pardon. There was one other exhibit, if the Court

16 would let me just put it in front of the witness.

17 There is also Z175.1. I do apologise. It was buried

18 under my other document.

19 Q. Can you just identify it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recognise the signature on the

22 document in front of you, 175.1, on the right-hand

23 side?

24 A. Yes, I do. Only this part, Kordic, I

25 recognise that that is Dario Kordic's signature.

Page 11255

1 Q. In this document, which is an appointment of

2 certain positions, can you just read into the record

3 what Pasko Ljubicic was appointed to, and nothing more?

4 A. Pasko Ljubicic was appointed to the Civil

5 Defence as an officer. At the time, I was not aware of

6 that because Pasko Ljubicic didn't have an office

7 there.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MS. SOMERS: I apologise for having left

10 these out. No further questions.

11 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now for half an

12 hour.

13 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

15 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, may I just read

16 into the record an exhibit number that has been

17 assigned to those notes which are under seal? The

18 exhibit number is Z1437,3. Thank you.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

21 Your Honours.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

23 Q. Mrs. Neslanovic, good afternoon. I'm Mitko

24 Naumovski, a lawyer from Zagreb, and I'm one of the

25 Defence counsel for Mr. Kordic. I will ask you some

Page 11256

1 questions. I should like to ask you not to answer them

2 immediately, to wait for the interpretation of my

3 questions into the languages of the Tribunal.

4 Mrs. Neslanovic, you spoke to the

5 investigators of the Tribunal on three occasions,

6 didn't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you also make a statement to the state

9 security centre in Zenica?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When was that; do you remember that?

12 A. I believe it was in 1995.

13 Q. Did you perhaps give a statement to the

14 commission on the establishment of war crimes or some

15 other agency?

16 A. I don't know. I gave my statements, but they

17 were from the International Community, and who they

18 were, I suppose they were investigators. That is what

19 they were called, I guess. I wouldn't really know.

20 Q. I'm asking you because all we have are the

21 statements that you gave to the Tribunal investigators

22 and not the other statements that you made to other

23 bodies.

24 A. No, only the Tribunal investigators spoke to

25 me. Those at the state security centre only took me

Page 11257

1 in, but they did not interview me.

2 Q. All right, very well. Thank you.

3 Let us follow the same order as in your

4 examination-in-chief, but just a few words. We do not

5 think it's particularly material, but this was raised

6 during the chief examination and I have to ask you,

7 that is, something about Mr. Kordic's mother.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We can agree that she treated both you and

10 your brothers and other members of your family and that

11 nobody ever complained of her treatment of you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And she not only treated you during her

14 working hours at the health centre, you also went to

15 her home and she would receive you privately out of

16 friendliness, simply to help you?

17 A. She was a physician on duty, and when she

18 would have no patients, she would go home. So she

19 often did the examinations at home, but she worked at

20 the health centre. But then she would go home and she

21 would also receive patients there. That is, if

22 somebody came to look for her at the health centre and

23 she wouldn't be there, then they could go to her home.

24 Q. What I meant was that you were a neighbour,

25 so it was quite easy for you. That is what I meant.

Page 11258

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. And you know that she suffered a stroke in

3 1995?

4 A. Yes, I have heard about it.

5 Q. And although very many doctors left, she

6 nevertheless had to go on working in 1992 and 1993, and

7 so she did work in 1992 and 1993?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That is what this document says, 1437,1, that

10 is, that although she was also ill, she tried to take

11 care of everybody in Busovaca as best she could; we

12 agree about that?

13 A. What I heard is that she suffered a stroke in

14 1996, 1997, not before that, that that was the time

15 when she suffered a stroke.

16 Q. No. The first one was in 1990, and the

17 second one was in April 1994. That's why I'm asking

18 you.

19 A. Oh, I see. I didn't know about the first

20 one.

21 Q. And the last question about that: We shall

22 agree that she was a good physician, wasn't she?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Now a few questions relative to

25 your work.

Page 11259

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So you worked from 1997 [sic] and, you say,

3 until January 1993; is that so?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you performed your duties throughout

6 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And therefore in 1992, nobody chased you away

9 from your work?

10 A. No, but they told me, in 1993, and that is in

11 January 1993, not to come back for work anymore.

12 Q. But nobody forced you to sign any papers in

13 1992?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And in 1992, you even asked for an unpaid

16 leave in addition to your regular annual leave?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And in November 1992, you also did some extra

19 work, and you were rewarded. I think you received 30

20 per cent of your salary more. You went to clean the

21 office premises, something like that, isn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And as the cleaning lady in the municipal

24 hall, you had free access to all the offices?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11260

1 Q. Likewise, you could also be present at

2 various press conferences that you mentioned?

3 A. Yes. Well, those press conferences I watched

4 on television because it was already after the war

5 broke out. There were press conferences before the war

6 too. And I could see them as they came into the

7 municipal hall or came out of the small hall in the --

8 small room in the municipal hall where they usually

9 held those press conferences or meetings or whatever.

10 Q. So we agree that the press conferences took

11 place in the municipal hall, that is, in the meeting

12 room, isn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I believe we shall also agree that you

15 personally -- that your movements personally were not

16 constrained. You could go wherever, you could go to

17 the building of the command or the police building or

18 whatever?

19 A. Oh, no. The police would not allow a

20 neighbour to visit a neighbour or even talk, and they

21 also forbid us to leave our houses. We were told that

22 we were not to leave our houses at all, even though I

23 did not observe that and I just went out of my house

24 because there were things I had to do.

25 Q. Well, that is what I asked you. You

Page 11261

1 personally moved about freely around the town, wherever

2 you wanted?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mrs. Neslanovic, you told us today about an

5 understanding between Serbs who lived in those two

6 villages near Busovaca and the HVO regarding the

7 distribution of weapons at Kaonik?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. But you have no direct knowledge of that, do

10 you?

11 A. I heard it from young men who came after the

12 Sajtovici barracks were liberated. When the JNA

13 withdrew from the barracks, then the Territorial

14 Defence, or whatever it was called, the army, was to

15 come there to share the booty with the HVO soldiers.

16 And the HVO soldiers were already in the barracks at

17 the time when they were supposed to enter together, and

18 an armed conflict happened then.

19 Q. Yes, yes, we know that. Just a moment.

20 I'm sorry I had to interrupt you. I do

21 understand all that, but the Court has already had an

22 opportunity to hear testimony about the distribution of

23 weapons, and who negotiated with whom, and so on and so

24 forth. But the negotiations were conducted between the

25 delegation of the crisis staff of the Busovaca

Page 11262

1 municipality, including the representatives of both

2 Muslims and Croats, and on the other end the JNA on the

3 other side?

4 A. Yes, but citizens and in Katici, and they are

5 mostly people of Serb ethnicity, and those soldiers who

6 were already in the barracks and from Podjele and those

7 who lived there, I mean the local people, they were

8 already in the Sajtovici barracks as a reserve force.

9 Q. Specifically, do you know that there was a

10 joint Croat and Muslim delegation in Busovaca, during

11 the negotiations which took place at the higher JNA

12 command in Zenica, included a Croat, Florijan

13 Glavocevic, and a Muslim, Asim Sunulahpasic, Zoran

14 Maric, and Besim Spahic, a Muslim who at that time was

15 the mayor of Zenica, that was the delegations, and they

16 were negotiating with the JNA delegation on the other

17 side?

18 A. I don't know that. I know what was happening

19 here. I don't know what kind of agreement they

20 reached. I know what happened there.

21 When the weapons were to be taken over, a

22 conflict took place because HVO soldiers had already

23 entered the barracks. And Sead Mesic was wounded, and

24 a Muslim fellow who had come there to share those

25 weapons with Croat soldiers withdrew after the JNA

Page 11263

1 withdrew.

2 Q. But what I don't agree with is your statement

3 that the Croat -- because it was an agreement between

4 the Bosnian Croats on one hand and the JNA on another.

5 A. No, nothing about the agreement in Zenica. I

6 know about the civilians and the soldiers who were in

7 the barracks who came from Podjele, who went there from

8 the reserve force, those who were in the barracks.

9 Q. Yes, yes, you already told us that.

10 Since you are mentioning Sunulahpasic was

11 wounded and he's a Muslim, do you know who took him to

12 a doctor?

13 A. I don't. I know that he was wounded and he

14 was my neighbour, and he was in the vicinity and we

15 went to pay him a visit. Who took him to the hospital,

16 I don't know. All I know is that he was wounded.

17 Q. Perhaps I'll refresh your memory by saying

18 that it was Franjo Sliskovic who took him in his car.

19 A. I don't really know.

20 Q. Right. But if we're referring to the wounded

21 on that occasion, and the Court has already heard about

22 that, a Croat, Darko Vuleta was wounded?

23 A. I don't know. I know that Sead was wounded

24 there because he was my neighbour, and that is how I

25 knew that he was wounded, that there had been an armed

Page 11264

1 conflict, so I don't know who else was wounded. I

2 heard about him.

3 Q. Let me ask you another question on this

4 subject.

5 Do you have any knowledge that apart from the

6 agreement on the distribution of weapons between Croats

7 and Muslims in these barracks in Sajtovici, or rather

8 Kaonik, and that was a local agreement, about 100

9 Muslims from Zenica arrived and were in front of the

10 barracks?

11 A. No, I don't know that.

12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 Your Honours, I'm not going into that topic

14 anymore. I'm not going to dwell on it, because I

15 believe you have heard a great deal about it already.

16 So let us move on to January 1993.

17 Q. Did you go to Kacuni sometime in late

18 January, around the 20th, 21st of January, 1993?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you have any direct knowledge as to what

21 happened in Kacuni on the 24th of January, 1993, and

22 who was killed there?

23 A. No, I don't know. I didn't go there. I

24 don't know.

25 Q. Do you agree with me that it was on that day

Page 11265

1 that the Kacuni-Grabovac road was closed, that one

2 could not drive through Kacuni?

3 A. I know that the road was closed and the

4 roadblocks were reinstituted before that and that the

5 traffic was stopped, but why, I do not know. I know

6 that there were some misunderstandings and that there

7 were some roadblocks there.

8 Q. But we agree that these roadblocks were put

9 up by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I mean in Kacuni?

10 A. I don't know who it was. All I know was that

11 there was a roadblock there and that they were checking

12 who was coming in and who was coming out. But who

13 manned that roadblock, I don't really know, because up

14 there, there was both Croat and Muslim villages.

15 Q. But whose troops were in Kacuni? Kacuni was

16 the seat of the Territorial Defence or, rather, the

17 barracks of the [indiscernible] Brigade.

18 A. In Kacuni, yes, there were troops up there.

19 Q. But it was the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. The Territorial Defence first and then the

21 army, yes.

22 Q. Very well, thank you. Are you aware of

23 another detail relative to this roadblock at Kacuni?

24 Do you know that around the 21st of January, '93, there

25 was an attempt to abduct Ignac Kostroman and

Page 11266

1 Tihomir Blaskic at that roadblock?

2 A. No, I don't know that.

3 Q. Now, a few questions about the 25th of

4 January, '93.

5 You, your husband and your son were, you say,

6 in the neighbouring house, in a shelter, together with

7 Croats and Serbs who used to live there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And later on you say men were taken away to

10 Kaonik?

11 A. Yes, the Muslims.

12 Q. Oh, the Muslims. Your husband was taken away

13 under somewhat different circumstances than the rest of

14 them?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The policeman, Josip Maric, was there, and he

17 talked to your husband about that, didn't he?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would you agree with me that it was Josip

20 Maric who told your husband that they had come to take

21 him to prison?

22 A. No. To a separate place, to a safer place,

23 and it was called prison.

24 Q. But it was that Croat policeman who also said

25 to your husband the following, and I'm quoting: "It is

Page 11267

1 up to you to say whether you want to stay here or come

2 with us, but it will be safer for you if you came with

3 us because somebody who does not know you might kill

4 you?"

5 A. Yes. It was safer for him to be in the

6 prison than to stay free, that is, at home, for

7 instance, because there anyone could kill him. So that

8 there, there in the camp, the chances were better that

9 he would keep his life than if he were free in the

10 territory.

11 Q. The final question about that. Your husband

12 decided himself to go with them, I mean, it was of his

13 own free will, wasn't it?

14 A. Well, he said, "Well, if it's safer there,

15 then I'll go there, if you can guarantee that nothing

16 will happen to me there," and he guaranteed that

17 nothing would happen to him there, that he would take

18 care of him.

19 Q. Very well. So your husband spent some seven

20 or eight days at Kaonik, didn't he?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And he wasn't beaten, he wasn't harassed by

23 anyone?

24 A. No, he was not beaten because they knew him.

25 Q. Just one more thing about your husband. You

Page 11268

1 said that when he came home, he had to go and dig

2 trenches wherever it was necessary.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You also said today, and the Prosecutor

5 interrupted you, that he received a summons in writing

6 to report to a place where he was to dig.

7 A. Yes. In the beginning, they would come after

8 him. Later on, they would send a written summons that

9 at such and such a time he should go and dig trenches

10 at such and such a place.

11 Q. Who was it who brought those summons?

12 A. It was a young man, rather, a man of Muslim

13 ethnicity --

14 Q. Excuse me. Just a moment.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

18 Your Honours.

19 Q. You worked at the municipal hall, and you

20 more or less knew the organisation, which department

21 existed, so on and so forth.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So we can agree, I suppose, that in the

24 former state and also in the present state,

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the former Yugoslavia, there was

Page 11269

1 an institution called the civilian defence.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. At the time when your husband went to dig

4 trenches, who was the chief of the civil defence in

5 Busovaca?

6 A. It was Viktor Maric.

7 Q. I suppose you also know who were bound by

8 that kind of duty. Who were people who were bound to

9 dish out certain duties within the civilian defence?

10 A. Practically all citizens who were not

11 militarily-able were dished out various duties in the

12 civilian defence, and my husband was militarily-able;

13 that is, all of them, including women and children, all

14 those who could help, for instance, rescue somebody

15 from the ruins, put out a fire, so on and so forth;

16 that is, all those citizens who could move around and

17 were not militarily-able, were not of military age.

18 Q. So we can agree that your husband would

19 receive summons signed by Viktor Maric, who was the

20 chief of the civil defence in Busovaca?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that was his labour obligation, in a way,

23 wasn't it?

24 A. Yes, in a way.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, a few questions

Page 11270

1 about your brothers, and there is no need to mention

2 their names. You said that you had three brothers.

3 Were your brothers members of the Territorial Defence

4 of Busovaca?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And they were members of that particular

7 Busovaca detachment, as it was called?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you speak up a bit, please, because I'm

10 afraid the interpreters can't hear you properly. Thank

11 you.

12 Your brothers were at Kadica Strana on the

13 24th and 25th of 1993?

14 A. No, they were not. They were at home. That

15 was somebody else. It's not far off, but it's a

16 different street. They were at their own home. On

17 that particular day, I happened to have been with

18 them. On the 24th, I was at their place.

19 Q. When did you leave their house on the 24th?

20 A. I left before dark, perhaps it was 6.00 or

21 7.00 p.m., thereabouts.

22 Q. So you personally have no knowledge as to

23 where your brothers were on the night between the 24th

24 and 25th of January, 1993.

25 A. I know that they were at home. They were

Page 11271

1 safeguarding their house because their families were

2 there.

3 Q. You spoke today about the arrest of your

4 brother several days later, but I noticed that in none

5 of the previous statements did you make mention of one

6 particular detail, that Anto Sliskovic supervised their

7 arrest.

8 A. No, I didn't mention that because it was a

9 long period of time and I had to try and remember each

10 detail, and my brother told me that later on and he

11 referred to him as captain, what are you doing with

12 them, and so on.

13 Q. When did your brother tell you that?

14 A. Well, my brother told me that after the

15 arrest. When I go back and remember all those details

16 and think about it, and then he said that Anto had

17 personally supervised his arrest.

18 Q. This is only something that you heard later

19 on; you don't know it directly yourself.

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. Thank you. You mentioned today that the

22 wrong conclusion was made that your brothers had been

23 killed and that you then looked for them all over

24 Busovaca, and in addition to that, you contacted Dusko

25 Grubesic to ask him about it; is that correct?

Page 11272

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You said that he was the commander of the

3 Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade, but you did not say

4 where the brigade's headquarters was.

5 A. Well, Dusko personally was at his

6 headquarters, that's where he had his offices, in the

7 Sumarija building on the ground floor, where the TO

8 offices had previously been located. The brigade, that

9 is to say, their brigade, had their offices at the

10 stadium and in the primary school building and in the

11 barracks as well and in the Udruga.

12 Q. But the headquarters was in the Sumarija

13 building; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. Dusko was in the Sumarija building.

15 Q. Thank you. If I have understood you

16 correctly, and from your previous statements and from

17 what you said today, Dusko Grubesic made a great deal

18 of effort to locate your brothers; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And he undertook -- he checked up on them; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You said today, when you talked to him about

24 the fear you had for your brothers, that he told you,

25 that is to say, that Dusko Grubesic, commander of the

Page 11273

1 Busovaca Brigade, told you that he had issued an order

2 that no single Muslim in Busovaca would be killed.

3 A. Must not be killed. He used the word

4 "must." "Not a single Muslim must be killed anymore

5 in Busovaca," that's what he said.

6 Q. Yes, and I noticed that you used that word,

7 "must not be any Muslim killed," but I have in front

8 of me notes from your conversation with the

9 investigator, dated the 31st of September, 1997, and at

10 the end, the translator, the interpreter says that

11 these notes represent the verbatim record of your

12 conversation with the investigator.

13 In that particular statement, and we just

14 have the English version in front of us, on page 5, the

15 last paragraph, in that paragraph, you told the

16 investigator that Dusko Grubesic said the following:

17 "Don't worry. I have issued an order that not a

18 single man in Busovaca will be killed anymore."

19 A. No. He said, "No single Muslim must be

20 killed," that's what he said, because it was only the

21 Muslims that were killed at the time because the

22 conflict was between the Muslims and the Croats. And

23 he told me, "I ordered that not a single Muslim must be

24 killed anymore," that no Muslims should be killed

25 anymore -- must be killed anymore, although there had

Page 11274

1 been quite a few of them who had been killed before

2 that. And several days elapsed, and then he said that

3 he had ordered this. He didn't tell me who he had

4 ordered it -- who he had issued the orders to, but he

5 said that not a single other Muslim may be killed.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

7 Mr. Naumovski, the Chamber has heard in the

8 examination-in-chief this quote, so there's no point in

9 going back to that. We have already heard it, that not

10 a single Muslim may be killed. So let us move forward,

11 please.

12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

13 Your Honour. I just wanted to point out the difference

14 in the previous statement because the Muslims are not

15 mentioned in the previous statement. It makes

16 reference to "anybody," so that was my reaction. But

17 if you say that we have exhausted that point, I can

18 move forward, yes.

19 MS. SOMERS: If I may, please, just comment

20 that what Mr. Naumovski is reading from is not a

21 statement at all signed by the witness. It is simply

22 what is called "Witness Information" taken by

23 investigators. So this is not ratified by the

24 witness.

25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you to

Page 11275

1 my learned friend for that assistance. I have just

2 made that point myself. Thank you. We may proceed.

3 Q. So you found your brothers, thank God, safe

4 and sound. They were in Kaonik and they were released

5 later.

6 A. Yes, but they had been beaten up and

7 mistreated.

8 Q. They were released on the 8th of February

9 when the exchange took place; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I now have a few questions with respect to

12 when you left your house. You described the

13 circumstances under which you were forced to leave here

14 today, and now I should like to ask you whether you

15 agree with me when I say that from 1992, ever since the

16 war began in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that

17 several large groups of refugees and displaced persons

18 had come into Busovaca; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And there was a large group of refugees from

21 the Jajce area in 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. There was also a very large group made up of

24 the inhabitants, that is to say, Croats from Travnik

25 and the surrounding villages, Guca Gora, Slanja, and

Page 11276

1 all that area, and in the summer of 1993, they came,

2 and a figure of 18.000 is mentioned, which means a

3 great influx of refugees to the area.

4 A. Yes. I don't know the exact number of those

5 refugees, but there were a considerable number. That

6 was where their centre was, and some of them stayed

7 there. Others went off, depending on how they found

8 accommodation and lodging and anything else. People

9 who were not satisfied with the accommodation they got

10 there, they would go further on and look for other

11 accommodation elsewhere.

12 Q. When you were forced to leave your house,

13 some refugees took up residence in your house; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You mentioned a detail today that when you

17 came to look for your things the next day, that the

18 refugees said, "Unfortunately, madam, we had to leave

19 all our memories behind." Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. After that, you lived for a time

22 in your mother's house. I don't want to take too much

23 time on that point, but what is important is Z1227,

24 that is to say, that you asked the commander of the

25 Busovaca Brigade, Dusko Grubesic, to issue a

Page 11277

1 certificate to you.

2 A. Yes, to protect me in some way.

3 Q. You went to the Sumarija building, to the

4 command headquarters there, and you were issued that

5 certificate there, were you not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It speaks for itself, but basically it said

8 that nobody must trouble you in the house in which you

9 were living, that is to say, in your mother's house,

10 that you would be protected there.

11 You told us that you tried to leave

12 Busovaca.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You asked UNPROFOR to help you leave; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes. First of all, I asked the authorities

17 in the police. Frano was there, Frano Kristo, first of

18 all, I asked him, and he told me that I was to go to

19 UNPROFOR, and "if UNPROFOR gives you a certificate that

20 they would be taking you out, then we shall also issue

21 you a certificate giving you permission to leave."

22 Then I went to UNPROFOR to ask them whether

23 they would be willing to issue me a certificate to

24 leave Busovaca, and they told me that Zenica had

25 accused them of performing ethnic cleansing, if they

Page 11278

1 were to export or allow Muslims to leave under pressure

2 of any kind. So they told me that they were accused of

3 performing ethnical cleansing by Zenica and so they

4 refused to take me out.

5 Q. When you spoke about Frano Kristo, you just

6 said that he was chief of police, but he was chief of

7 the civilian police, was he not?

8 A. Yes, although there was the army there as

9 well. There was the army and the police. So I don't

10 really know.

11 Q. But he was in the civilian police, I think

12 you agree with that, and that's what you said in your

13 statement.

14 A. Yes, but he did not have the authority to

15 issue orders to let me go. He had to ask Anto

16 Sliskovic or some of the other soldiers who made the

17 decision, so he had to ask them first whether to allow

18 me to leave, which means, that as a civil policeman, he

19 did not decide on the fates of civilians.

20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

21 just a detail which I omitted a moment ago when the

22 witness spoke about UNPROFOR and the assistance to

23 leave and Muslims to leave, Witness Sepa spoke about

24 that subject, and that is the detail that I wish to

25 bring up. He mentioned services in the form of

Page 11279

1 transport because he was stationed in Busovaca. Thank

2 you.

3 Q. I wanted to emphasise that he was in the

4 civilian police force; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. You received another certificate,

7 apart from the one that Dusko Grubesic gave you.

8 A. Yes, I received a certificate when I was to

9 leave Busovaca. First of all, Nikica Petrovic called

10 me and had a talk with me and said, well, he would

11 allow me and my child to leave, to go to Zenica, and he

12 ordered Frano to give me a written statement or

13 certificate giving me free passage to leave Busovaca.

14 Q. I had in mind another certificate. Did you

15 receive a certificate, that is to say, you did receive

16 a certificate, I think, signed by Zoran Maric, which

17 also stated that nobody was allowed to interfere with

18 you.

19 A. Yes, I received a certificate of that kind,

20 that nobody must molest us, all those who were left in

21 Busovaca, that we were not allowed -- nobody was to

22 expel us from our homes. But it was quiet for two or

23 three days after that, and afterwards, that paper meant

24 nothing because they carried on what they were doing

25 before that. So that paper was, in fact, worthless.

Page 11280

1 Q. Now I have several questions to ask you. You

2 worked in the municipality, did you not, so you know

3 things about that. Let me ask you about the power

4 structure, so to speak, in the Busovaca municipality.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know that Mr. Florijan Glavocevic was

7 the president of the HVO up until August of 1992?

8 A. I know that Florijan Glavocevic was the

9 president of the municipality. I did not know that he

10 was president of, as you say, the representative of the

11 HVO. I didn't know that. I just knew that he was the

12 president of the municipality and that he worked as

13 such in the Busovaca municipality. But what function

14 he had or post he had in the HVO, I really don't know.

15 Q. Let me just check. Are we speaking of the

16 same period, the summer of 1992?

17 A. Yes, we are.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you. Later on, the

19 function performed by Glavocevic was taken over by

20 Mr. Maric; is that correct?

21 A. Before Florijan, I think Zoran was before

22 Florijan. I don't recall exactly. There was Niko

23 Grubesic, there was Florijan Glavocevic, and then Zoran

24 Maric, and they were all presidents at a similar time,

25 but I don't mow who was the first, second, or third. I

Page 11281

1 think that Niko Grubesic came after Florijan, and

2 before that, I think it was Zoran Maric, something of

3 that kind. That's how it must have been because Zoran

4 Maric was there in 1992 or -- well, yes, there was a --

5 I think it was Florijan and then Niko Grubesic replaced

6 him. But all three of them were presidents of the

7 municipality, yes.

8 Q. Mr. Niko Grubesic, in fact, came after the

9 war, that he was the mayor of Busovaca afterwards; is

10 that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But the period that I'm referring to,

13 Mr. Niko Grubesic was the secretary of the

14 municipality. I think that's what you called him.

15 A. Yes, that was in 1992. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. I assume that you know some of

17 the details related to the military organisation of the

18 HVO in Busovaca. Ivo Brnada was the commander of the

19 HVO in May 1992; do you know about that?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. You don't know?

22 A. No, I do not.

23 Q. Do you know who the first commander of the

24 Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade in Busovaca was?

25 A. Well, I know there was Dusko, and then due to

Page 11282

1 illness, he had to leave to Split and he was replaced

2 during that time by Jure -- I don't remember his

3 surname, Jure Cavara, and then once again, Dusko came

4 back. That's what I know.

5 Q. So you don't know who was there before him in

6 December 1992?

7 A. No, I only know the time when Dusko was

8 there.

9 Q. Can you recall, with greater precision, when

10 he was the commander in the framework of time?

11 A. I think it was in 1992, the summer of 1992.

12 I met him sometime in April. He was in Split but had

13 come back from Split because he had some lung

14 problems. He was ill, but he was the commander of the

15 brigade.

16 Q. Let me ask you to tell me more exactly

17 whether you know when the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade

18 was formed in Busovaca in more precise terms.

19 A. Well, I don't know the exact date, no.

20 Q. Very well, thank you. I just have one more

21 question related to your personal status.

22 You explained to us a moment ago that you

23 were given permission to leave Busovaca?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But you were, in fact, exchanged -- that is,

Page 11283

1 there was a personal exchange that took place. Your

2 husband found a family in Zenica, a Croat, and then you

3 were exchanged that way?

4 A. Yes. That was the only way in which I was

5 able to leave Busovaca, in actual fact.

6 Q. And you told us in your statement, in one of

7 your statements, that many families were exchanged

8 privately, so to speak, in that way?

9 A. Yes. My husband was in Zenica and the other

10 person's husband was in Busovaca, and so they would

11 exchange families.

12 Q. Mrs. Neslanovic, I have several questions to

13 ask you with regard to your acquaintance with Fatima

14 Ibriljic, who was pregnant at the time.

15 You tried to help her, and you went to the

16 civilian police to talk to Frano Kristo, whether that

17 woman would be allowed to leave, permitted to leave?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Kristo promised that he would see what he

20 could do?

21 A. He would only see what he could do about me.

22 He would talk to Anto Sliskovic, because he was in

23 charge of civilians, and that he had to have agreement

24 from Anto Sliskovic to allow me to leave.

25 And then I mentioned Fatima, and he said,

Page 11284

1 well, he would do that next time. So he made no

2 promises with regard to letting Fatima leave, that he

3 would promise to talk to Anto Sliskovic about me, what

4 he could do to have me leave.

5 So I went to Frano on several occasions,

6 asking him to give me permission to leave. He would

7 just say, "Well, find Anto Sliskovic. He's the main

8 man, he's the man in charge, and if he says you can go,

9 then you can go."

10 Q. Let's stick to the topic in hand. I'd now

11 like to ask you a few details about this particular

12 lady.

13 On that same day when you went to the police

14 station to talk to Frano Kristo, you met Mr. Kordic,

15 who was coming out of the church or somewhere like

16 that.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. We agree, I think, that Mr. Kordic was

19 friendly towards you and told the escort to let you go

20 by, and you said a few -- exchanged a few friendly

21 words there; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At one point, this pregnant lady with tears

24 in her eyes came up to you and told you about her own

25 personal problem?

Page 11285

1 A. Well, she was crying, so I explained her

2 predicament. She wasn't able to say anything,

3 actually.

4 Q. You asked Mr. Kordic, in friendly terms, to

5 help the woman; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Mr. Kordic promised that he would help?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. He said he would contact the chief of the

10 civilian police, that is to say, Frano --

11 A. No, he told me to tell Frano that he had said

12 that Fatima should be given permission to leave

13 Busovaca, and I had just come from Frano Kristo.

14 Q. Yes, you've described that to us already,

15 thank you, not to waste time.

16 The next thing I want to ask you is this:

17 Mr. Kordic promised to help and sent one of his escorts

18 to accompany that pregnant lady to the civilian police

19 station to see what could be done; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You were not in the office when they talked

22 to Frano Kristo?

23 A. No, that's correct. I waited outside. In

24 fact, the escort wouldn't allow me to enter. I wanted

25 to go in, but he wouldn't let me.

Page 11286

1 Q. And you know that after that, you know that

2 in a day or two Fatima Ibriljic was sent to Zenica by

3 UNPROFOR?

4 A. Yes. Dario's mother helped her to be allowed

5 to leave urgently. Dario's mother helped a great deal,

6 not to use the transport but to leave more urgently.

7 Q. So Dr. Kordic ensured medical assistance for

8 this woman; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Let us now proceed.

11 Mrs. Neslanovic, I have a few more

12 questions. I hope we'll have time to get through them

13 all.

14 You mentioned today -- you mentioned the

15 press conferences today, and we agreed that they were

16 held on a Tuesday in the municipality building; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes. In most cases, they took place on a

19 Tuesday, which does not mean that there were no other

20 ad hoc press conferences.

21 Q. So these were regular, weekly, public press

22 conferences, were they not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Journalists would come, that kind of thing?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11287

1 Q. And they were televised, were they not, you

2 say?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So at these press conferences, problems were

5 publicly aired about the war and matters of that kind?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I noted that you said today that this was,

8 for the most part, propaganda because it appeared that

9 it was only the BH army that was attacking the HVO?

10 A. Yes. I said the Muslim forces were attacking

11 the HVO, that that was what was said, that it was

12 always the HVO that was attacked by the BH army and

13 that they were only defending themselves.

14 Q. You were never in the army or your husband

15 wasn't in the army, so I didn't want to ask you any

16 questions from the military field. But I have one

17 question to ask you. Do you agree that there was heavy

18 fighting?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Even around the town of Busovaca?

21 A. Yes, yes, there was fighting, and you could

22 hear detonations, explosions and firing, and I know

23 that I had to go to a shelter and stay in shelters.

24 And we were being warned constantly over the radio that

25 we should go to seek protection in shelters. Sometimes

Page 11288

1 we would go to shelters without any detonations or

2 explosion or shooting being heard. But it was assumed

3 that an attack could come about, so we were told to go

4 to the shelters.

5 Q. Do you agree with me when I say that the town

6 of Busovaca was shelled?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That these shells fell on the town itself?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. When you spoke a moment ago about

11 Mr. Dusko Grubesic, you gave us an interesting piece of

12 information. At least you gave us one of your thoughts

13 on that particular subject. You said that Dusko

14 Grubesic reported to Mr. Kordic when there was a review

15 of some kind. Would you think about that and tell us

16 when that took place? But take your time and think

17 about it.

18 A. It was in 1992. It was the summer of 1992

19 when Dusko, on the stadium, positioned his army, the

20 Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade, and all the HDZ

21 officials were there. And Dusko -- the army was

22 standing to attention, and then he reported to Dario,

23 and then together they reviewed the army and greeted

24 the members of the army, as is customary at reviews --

25 military reviews and ceremonies of this kind. It is

Page 11289

1 customary for the leaders to do that kind of thing.

2 Q. Thank you. Perhaps I'll refresh your memory

3 when I ask you whether that could have been on the 23rd

4 of August, 1992.

5 A. I don't know exactly. I know it was

6 summertime. It was a nice day.

7 Q. Tell me, were you yourself at the stadium?

8 A. No, I was not. I watched it on television.

9 It was quite close to where I was, so I would see

10 soldiers in uniform going by, and of course it was on

11 the radio as well.

12 Q. Now I'm going to ask you a detail about this

13 reporting. Did you see the reporting on television?

14 A. Yes. It was on Busovaca Television, and it

15 was televised only by the Busovaca TV network.

16 Q. Mrs. Neslanovic, let me tell you -- and, Your

17 Honours, I have to confront the witness with one

18 particular fact and I don't want you to misunderstand

19 me -- but Mr. Dusko Grubesic did not report to

20 Mr. Kordic because Anto Juric -- do you know who Anto

21 Juric was?

22 A. No.

23 Q. He was there. You don't know him at all?

24 A. No.

25 Q. We was the commander of a battalion, and you

Page 11290

1 don't know about them. Well, they were present at this

2 review.

3 A. No, Dario was there. I saw him very well.

4 Q. Thank you. Do you know who spoke -- who made

5 a speech at this particular ceremony that you're

6 talking about?

7 A. Dario.

8 Q. Who else?

9 A. I know that Dusko took the microphone and

10 addressed the army members, and then Dario said a few

11 words congratulating the soldiers and all those present

12 and that kind of thing.

13 Q. Anybody else?

14 A. Dusko and Dario and the other leaders.

15 Q. But I have a quick question. Did Mr. Blaskic

16 take the floor? Did he make a speech?

17 A. I don't remember. He was present on the

18 occasion, he was present amongst the dignitaries. He

19 was standing behind, in the row behind.

20 Q. Zoran Maric was there too. Did he speak?

21 A. I don't know that he spoke.

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

23 I think you have understood our position regarding this

24 matter, so I don't need to repeat it to the witness.

25 Q. Were there several line-ups of troops at the

Page 11291

1 stadium in Busovaca in 1992?

2 A. I don't know whether they were in public.

3 Q. No. I'm talking about public ceremonies.

4 A. Yes, there were. I did see many soldiers

5 around, but what the occasion was, I don't know.

6 Q. Do you know that there was a parade in

7 December 1992?

8 A. No, I don't.

9 Q. Then we can move on. A couple of questions

10 under a common heading, miscellaneous.

11 You mentioned the sister of Kordic. She was

12 an announcer on the radio, wasn't she?

13 A. She was the chief in the radio, she was the

14 editor in chief.

15 Q. You know that from personal knowledge?

16 A. Yes, because it was announced. Davorka

17 Kordic as the editor in chief, that was on the

18 announcement of programmes, a programme technically

19 prepared by Josip Rajic and so on. All of this was on

20 television.

21 Q. But individual programmes, she was the editor

22 of individual programmes?

23 A. No, no, all of them from the moment the radio

24 was founded. Davorka was in charge of all of that.

25 Q. Thank you. Yesterday when you started your

Page 11292

1 testimony in answer to a question from the Prosecution,

2 you said that in July there was a machine gun

3 positioned in town, but you said in July?

4 A. June or July.

5 Q. Yes, yes, we know that. I wanted to ask you

6 something else. This wasn't in July but in May 1992.

7 Does that refresh your memory?

8 A. No. I know that it was very hot, it was the

9 summer, so I don't think that it could have been so hot

10 in May. It was really very hot.

11 Q. And then that machine gun, after a short

12 time, was removed?

13 A. It was there for up to perhaps a month, and

14 there were machine gun nests in ethnically-pure areas

15 inhabited by Muslims near Tihomir Jovic's house in

16 Mahala.

17 Q. We agree that they were removed a short while

18 later?

19 A. Yes. No, the bunkers remained, and then the

20 anti-aircraft guns would pass by there on trucks.

21 Q. Yes, you've told us that already. When you

22 started talking about when uniforms began to be worn in

23 Busovaca, I took note that you said sometime in April

24 1992 onwards, it became fashionable to dress in

25 uniform. Many people were wearing uniforms?

Page 11293

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But this was still while Bosnia-Herzegovina

3 was a constituent of the Republic of Yugoslavia?

4 A. No, immediately after it proclaimed its

5 independence. I apologise.

6 Q. But what I wanted to say was while the JNA

7 was still present?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Today, also one of these other

10 questions, that leaders of the HVO in Busovaca used

11 luxury passenger cars and various other types of

12 vehicles?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You also mentioned a helicopter?

15 A. Yes. A helicopter would come to the

16 stadium. It would land at the stadium. Why it came, I

17 don't know. I heard from citizens that they were

18 bringing in medicines and taking away the wounded,

19 their purpose being, therefore, a humanitarian one.

20 This happened once in 1993. I remember seeing the

21 helicopter landing at the stadium, escorted by two NATO

22 fighter planes, and then the helicopter landed quickly.

23 Q. That is precisely what I wanted to ask you.

24 Can you tell us exactly when that was or at least

25 roughly what time of year it was, the first time that

Page 11294

1 you saw them?

2 A. In 1993. It could have been May or June,

3 somewhere around there.

4 Q. You said it was white. Did it have any

5 markings?

6 A. I didn't notice any markings. I saw that it

7 was white, but I didn't notice any marks on it.

8 Q. And when --

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

10 Mr. Naumovski, what do you wish to present through this

11 question regarding the helicopter? Put the question

12 directly. There's no point asking what colour it was,

13 was it white, and so on. Put your question directly in

14 connection with the indictment, the charges in the

15 indictment.

16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

17 the witness has just answered my question by saying

18 that it was a humanitarian flight that she was aware of

19 in 1993. My next question, if I may, was going to be

20 when she saw it a second time.

21 Q. And that was in 1994?

22 A. No, in 1993. In 1994, I was no longer in

23 Busovaca.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I had to ask

25 this question because of the context within which the

Page 11295

1 witness gave this answer to the Prosecutor, but I've

2 finished with that subject now.

3 Q. I didn't wish to dwell in detail on the

4 confidential part of the hearing. I won't mention any

5 names, so we don't have to go into private session. So

6 be careful. Don't mention any names yourself either.

7 I will be very brief.

8 Regarding the first case that we discussed,

9 you said they were not soldiers from Busovaca. You

10 know the case I am referring to, the first case?

11 A. No, I don't understand you.

12 Q. You told the Prosecutor, or rather all of us,

13 about the event that occurred, the first event that you

14 described.

15 A. You mean with my relative?

16 Q. Yes, but don't repeat the thing so that we

17 don't have to go into private session. Do we agree

18 that the man who did it was not from Busovaca?

19 A. One of them was not. I don't know about the

20 other. At least that is what Branko Sliskovic told

21 me.

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Perhaps it's

23 better that we go into private session just in case I

24 ask a question that might reveal the witness. Very

25 briefly, please.

Page 11296

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Page 11298

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13 [Open session]

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

15 Q. A few questions about the HDZ leaders in

16 Busovaca. Do you know who the HDZ leaders in Busovaca

17 were?

18 A. Yes. Dario, Niko Grubesic, Glavocevic, Bruno

19 Susnjar, he was there too. He was also near the top

20 somewhere. Then there was Kostroman and Blaskic and

21 Valenta.

22 Q. I'm talking about Busovaca only.

23 A. These others were guests. There was Niko,

24 Florijan, Dario, Bruno Susnjar, and there were some

25 others who I knew by sight.

Page 11299

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Anto Bilic, Anto Stipac.

3 Q. Yes. So you know the whole circle of

4 people.

5 A. Yes, I know Anto Bilic and Anto Stipac. They

6 are my neighbours.

7 Q. A couple more questions linked to this group

8 under miscellaneous. You said yesterday or today, I'm

9 not quite sure, that Frano Sliskovic moved into the

10 Serb's apartment, Zdravko Milanovic, who had left

11 Busovaca, but he bought that apartment.

12 A. No, he purchased his furniture. He couldn't

13 buy the apartment because he had received it from his

14 company. He left that flat and he sold his things.

15 Q. At minimum prices?

16 A. Yes, I was told that by a relative of

17 Zdravko's wife, that they sold that furniture for petty

18 prices.

19 Q. Never mind. Let's not tire the Court with

20 these details. You said that Frano Sliskovic later

21 married Mr. Kordic's sister-in-law. Do you know that

22 they married in December 1994?

23 A. Yes, but they were living out of wedlock.

24 Maybe that is when they got married, but they lived

25 together much before then.

Page 11300

1 Q. So you mentioned another person, a Serb or a

2 Montenegrin, Mico Bulatovic. Can we agree that he and

3 Zdravko Milanovic voluntarily, of their own free will,

4 left Busovaca.

5 A. I know that Mico Bulatovic went on a visit to

6 Montenegro to visit his friend, so that his furniture,

7 everything, stayed behind. The man didn't take

8 anything with him, except his own clothes. Then

9 Busovaca was shelled and the man didn't return to

10 Busovaca.

11 Q. Very well. That was just in passing, a

12 question en passant. You mentioned this person called

13 Daro several times. We won't go back to the event that

14 we referred to in private session, but later you said

15 that you were present when he talked to you and this

16 young woman.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You know this Daro. In view of what he did

19 later on, you were willing to talk to him. But he did

20 a very nasty thing, according to what you heard, but

21 you still had contact with him.

22 A. I had no choice. I couldn't publicly avoid

23 him.

24 Q. Tell me, as a person, was he a show-off? Did

25 he like to boast, to be pretentious, to claim to be

Page 11301

1 somebody important?

2 A. Yes. Yes, he did, a little.

3 Q. Very well. Thank you.

4 A. Maybe about his appearance or something like

5 that.

6 Q. Never mind. That's not so important. Again,

7 in passing.

8 Perhaps we can now go on to the last subject

9 matter, and I believe we will manage to finish by

10 1.00. These are a couple of questions linked to

11 Mr. Kordic. We agree that he was appointed Secretary

12 for National Defence after the first elections in the

13 joint government formed by the Muslims, Croats, and

14 Serbs in Busovaca.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. While working there, his secretary in the

17 office was a Muslim lady, Hafida Hodzic.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. She worked with him throughout the time he

20 held that position.

21 A. I think so. She did work there. I don't

22 know exactly when she left.

23 Q. She was his secretary. She would copy out

24 the minutes of meetings.

25 A. I don't know whether she took down the

Page 11302

1 minutes. I don't know what exactly she did, but I do

2 know that she acted as a kind of secretary. Whether

3 she copied down the minutes of meetings, that I don't

4 know.

5 Q. Never mind. Never mind. It's not

6 important.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

8 Mr. Naumovski, if you want to say that there were

9 Muslims in that municipality, that has been said

10 several times. There's no point in repeating that

11 here.

12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, I

13 understand, Your Honour, but she was the personal

14 secretary of Mr. Kordic, and the Prosecution is

15 indirectly making certain implications in that

16 direction. That's all I wanted to say.

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 Go on. But, please, you need not necessarily take as

19 much time as the Prosecution every time. It's more

20 than an hour and twenty minutes. There's no need to

21 dwell on matters that are already common knowledge.

22 Indeed, you had to refer to things to corroborate

23 certain points, but you can do it quickly, swiftly.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well,

25 Your Honour. I'll hurry up.

Page 11303

1 Q. Do you know that the Secretary for National

2 Defence in Busovaca municipality and throughout all

3 municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina was officially

4 supplied with a pistol?

5 A. No, I don't know that.

6 Q. You said that Mr. Kordic, while the JNA was

7 still there, that Mr. Kordic would come in camouflage

8 uniform.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So you saw him frequently wearing such a

11 uniform later on.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. It was always a camouflage uniform.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You never saw him in a black uniform.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know who took Mr. Kordic's place as

18 president of the HDZ in Busovaca municipality in April

19 1992?

20 A. I don't know because I didn't attend HDZ

21 meetings, and what was happening there, I don't know.

22 Q. But if I give you the name, perhaps that

23 would refresh your memory. It was Mr. Florijan

24 Glavocevic who became president of the HVO Busovaca in

25 April 1992.

Page 11304

1 A. That was the rumour in the municipality, but

2 he didn't stay in that position for long. He was very

3 shortly replaced.

4 Q. Who then came for president of the HDZ after

5 Glavocevic?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Apart from the event that you described in

8 connection with your acquaintance, the pregnant lady

9 that you addressed Mr. Kordic to help, can we agree

10 that you addressed them for their assistance in their

11 house, talking to his wife?

12 A. I never went there, except for once, but I

13 couldn't enter because there were soldiers in front of

14 the house. They wouldn't let me go inside. They were

15 guarding his house.

16 Q. Let me be specific. Did you, on one

17 occasion, address Mr. Kordic, or rather his wife to

18 help you to get food for your family?

19 A. No, I did not. No, I didn't say that.

20 Q. Not to his wife or to Mr. Kordic?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you. You mentioned today the killing

23 of Ibro Hodzic.

24 A. And Mirsad Delija.

25 Q. No, we're only interested in Ibro Hodzic. He

Page 11305

1 was killed around the 10th of February, the beginning

2 of February of 1993.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. A day or two after that killing, a press

5 conference was held which was telecast on television.

6 Did you watch it?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Let me try and refresh your memory. At that

9 press conference, Mr. Dario Kordic publicly denounced

10 the killing of Ibro Hodzic, expressed condolences to

11 his wife, and explicitly stated that this crime could

12 only have been done by criminals and that such an act

13 was not good for the Croatian people.

14 A. I didn't have occasion to watch that. I

15 don't remember that, because the war was on already,

16 and I spent a lot of time in shelter and I was very

17 worried about life.

18 JUDGE MAY: We've explored this as much as

19 possible.

20 Now, Mr. Naumovski, is there anything else

21 you want to ask?

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Just a couple

23 of questions more, Your Honour.

24 Q. You said that Mr. Kordic would be absent for

25 several days.

Page 11306

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when you spoke to him in the street, he

3 told you that he was not able to come to Busovaca

4 because of the war. But you don't know where he went,

5 you have no knowledge about that.

6 A. No, except what he told me himself.

7 Q. Mr. Kordic would usually use what we would

8 call a luxury, a passenger car, a Mercedes or an Opel,

9 to move around in?

10 A. Yes, I would see him in a passenger car and

11 in a Land Rover. I don't know what colour they were,

12 but usually passenger cars, yes.

13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

14 I understood your observation, but it could be relevant

15 because of the statements of some other witnesses who

16 spoke about this. So it was my duty to check this out

17 through this witness. But I've finished. Just one

18 more question.

19 Q. Mrs. Neslanovic, and that will end my

20 examination, during your statement with the

21 investigators, you stated that Mr. Kordic could not

22 have known about everything that was happening, that

23 obviously some things were happening outside of his

24 knowledge. That is what you told the investigators.

25 A. Yes.

Page 11307

1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 Thank you, Mrs. Neslanovic, and thank you, Your

3 Honours, for your patience. That ends my

4 cross-examination of this witness.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Mikulicic.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Neslanovic. My name is

8 Goran Mikulicic, I'm an attorney from Zagreb, and in

9 this case, together with colleague Kovacic, I represent

10 Mario Cerkez. I will be very brief.

11 You told us, Mrs. Neslanovic, that you worked

12 in Busovaca municipality and you had occasion to see

13 many people, many leading figures from the civilian and

14 military authorities who came to the municipality; is

15 that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mario Cerkez in Busovaca

18 municipality?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. Tell me, Ms. Neslanovic, when you saw him and

21 under which circumstances.

22 A. He would come as a guest to see Dario or any

23 one of the others, but he would come as a guest. He

24 would stay there for an hour or two and then leave.

25 Q. Do you remember when this was?

Page 11308

1 A. That was in 1992, as far as I can remember,

2 as far as I was able to see.

3 Q. Was there some kind of a celebration that

4 prompted his coming as a guest?

5 A. Whether there was a celebration, I don't

6 remember, but he did come. I would see him there.

7 Whether it was for a ceremony of some sort or on a

8 private visit, I don't know.

9 Q. Tell me, Mrs. Neslanovic, do you know when he

10 came whether he was wearing civilian clothes or a

11 military uniform?

12 A. Sometimes he would come in civilian clothes

13 and sometimes in camouflage uniform. As the war was

14 approaching, everyone was wearing camouflage uniforms.

15 There were very few civilians, hardly anyone, just here

16 and there.

17 Q. Very well. So that was the only time you saw

18 him.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you, Ms. Neslanovic. I have no further

21 questions.

22 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] The Cerkez

23 Defence has no further questions, Your Honours.

24 MS. SOMERS: If the Chamber will give me five

25 rapid-fire questions with quick answers. Thank you.

Page 11309

1 Re-examined by Ms. Somers:

2 Q. Ms. Neslanovic, when did your husband leave

3 Busovaca for Zenica?

4 A. He left in May.

5 Q. Of what year?

6 A. 1993.

7 Q. Did Anto Sliskovic ever wear a uniform that

8 you saw?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What type? Was it camouflage?

11 A. Sometimes camouflage, sometimes black.

12 Q. Did Anto Sliskovic have an office near Dario

13 Kordic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You mentioned during cross that the Zrinjski

16 Brigade had been headquartered in the primary school.

17 Do you know where the Jokers were headquartered?

18 A. Yes. They were headquartered in the

19 elementary school in Busovaca. I went there by chance

20 to look for a certificate to prove that my child had

21 finished four years of elementary school. I was

22 looking for someone to give me this certificate;

23 however, I found soldiers there. There were beds in

24 the classrooms. The soldiers were sleeping there. The

25 Jokers, they had the word "Jokers" on their shoulders,

Page 11310

1 that is where they played table tennis and that is

2 where they spent their time.

3 Q. Either through your meetings with Daro, or

4 any other source, did you ever learn that Daro was

5 punished for the rape?

6 A. No, never. I never heard that he was ever

7 punished.

8 Q. One last question. Did you observe Anto

9 Sliskovic in the company of Dario Kordic at official

10 meetings, either in the municipality building or

11 anywhere where Dario Kordic had authority?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. SOMERS: No further questions.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mrs. Neslanovic, that concludes

16 your evidence. Thank you for coming to the

17 International Tribunal to give it. You are now

18 released.

19 We will adjourn until half past two.

20 We're not going to adjourn. There's

21 something they want to deal with. If you would like to

22 go.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 (Private Session)

25 (redacted)

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21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.

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11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

12 4.13 p.m., to be reconvened on

13 Wednesday, the 8th day of December,

14 1999, at 9.30 a.m.

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