Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 903

1 Friday, 13 February 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, before the witness is called, the --

8 JUDGE ORIE: What about calling the case, or would you --

9 MR. STEWART: Oh, I'm sorry. I beg your pardon, Your Honour. Too

10 enthusiastic. I'll curb my enthusiasm immediately.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

12 Momcilo Krajisnik.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you had something.

14 MR. STEWART: I'm trying to restrain myself, Your Honour.


16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the way the matter was left yesterday

17 in relation to Rule 73 was -- Your Honour very kindly indicated that we

18 would have the opportunity of renewing our application, given the

19 circumstances in which it had to be indicated yesterday. Your Honour, we

20 do wish to do that. Rule 73, under the heading of "other motions," which

21 is what we looked at relatively briefly yesterday, the procedure is that

22 we are to make, if we wish to appeal the matter in relation to

23 Mr. Deronjic we are to make a request for certification to be filed within

24 seven days of the filing of the impugned decision. In a sense, it's all

25 going slightly backwards at the moment, because Your Honours haven't yet

Page 904

1 had the opportunity of giving the full reasons you gave us a summary of

2 the reasons, but clearly we can't wait to go through the formal steps and

3 wait for the reasons and then file our request, because the whole thing

4 will have moved on.

5 JUDGE ORIE: It will be given full priority to give you the

6 reasons, but you'll understand that even the Chamber now and then needs

7 some time to write matters down.

8 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour. I don't wish it to be

9 thought that there was the slightest implication of any complaint about

10 the time being taken. It's just a question of where it leaves us

11 procedurally in the circumstances.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, procedurally, I would say the decision is

13 there. You could already file a request and give your provisional reasons

14 for that, and it goes without saying that you'll be allowed to complete

15 the reasons for your request once you've received the written decision.

16 Perhaps that's -- if you'd rather start right away, you could file a

17 motion, file a request, and then give supplementary reasons once you've

18 seen our written decision.

19 MR. STEWART: Yes. Well, Your Honour, in fact, what we have done,

20 and this is subject to one of those slightly irritating matters which is

21 simply the need to obtain sufficient photocopies. But what we have, in

22 fact, got exactly that written application ready for by way of the request

23 for certification, and I think one of the court officers is very kindly

24 arranging sufficient photocopies even as we speak.

25 As far as the proposal Your Honour has just made for filing

Page 905

1 supplementary reasons are concerned, the difficulty with this being that

2 while it's part of our submissions in this document that we're about to

3 file that the evidence given by Mr. Deronjic yesterday, although of course

4 he began to go into some important issues, his evidence is not yet got so

5 far that we reach a more or less irreversible position so far as his

6 giving evidence is concerned. After all, the nature of our application,

7 the nature of our appeal, would be that his evidence should be deferred.

8 And that appeal really is rendered pretty useless if, while it's pending

9 and while we're awaiting the reasons and while we're filing supplementary

10 reasons, Mr. Deronjic is simply continuing with his evidence, because we

11 will have a situation that he's given days and days of evidence.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we were aware of that when we

13 yesterday took our decision.

14 MR. STEWART: Well, I understand that, Your Honour, but it still

15 leaves the question of an appeal, and it still leaves the issue which I

16 believe that both Your Honours and we acknowledged yesterday had not

17 presented the opportunity for anything approaching mature consideration,

18 which was the way in which the conditions of 73(B) were intended to

19 operate. And we have -- in the time available, we have had a look at the

20 Tribunal case-law to see whether there is any helpful guidance in relation

21 to that, and so far as -- you can never prove an absolute negative, but so

22 far as we've been able to ascertain, there isn't anything which casts any

23 particularly helpful guidance on that. So it becomes a matter of looking

24 at that particular provision to see what it's intended to do.

25 Your Honour, what I was going to propose, of course in the

Page 906

1 Tribunal's hands, was that we should in the circumstances, we should very

2 briefly highlight our submissions this morning on this matter, because,

3 after all, if the matter isn't dealt with, then what we would have to

4 propose is that we request certification. If Your Honours give

5 certification, then of course we are in a position to proceed with our

6 appeal. We would, of course, be seeking that the Appeals Chamber would

7 deal with the matter by way of expedition, which we expect they would be

8 willing within the confines of what they can humanly do, they would

9 naturally be willing to do, given the particular issue, and of course, the

10 Appeals Chamber is then in control of precisely what procedures it adopts

11 and what timetable it adopts to resolve the matter. But what would be

12 important in the circumstances would be that Mr. Deronjic's evidence

13 should be halted, because if we do proceed with his evidence -- well, I've

14 already said that, Your Honour. It becomes impossible to untangle, in

15 practice, if he continues.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You said it already yesterday even.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has decided that we'll continue to hear

19 the evidence of Mr. Deronjic at this moment, and you can be assured that

20 whatever is filed will be checked by us and we'll rethink during every

21 break what to do. But we'll continue now.

22 MR. STEWART: And Your Honours -- will Your Honours give the

23 Defence an opportunity of developing submissions on this matter?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first see what you have written down on paper.

25 We'll review that during the next break, to start with, and we'll also

Page 907

1 then decide whether there will be a moment for additional oral

2 submissions.

3 MR. STEWART: Yes. I'm much obliged, Your Honour. In that case,

4 Your Honour, since I can't do much with it over the next hour or so, this

5 is the only copy I've got at the moment, but perhaps I can hand that up,

6 on, if possible, the understanding that somebody will give me a copy back

7 at some point.


9 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And even if it's not formally filed yet, courtesy

11 copies will be read by the Judges anyhow.

12 MR. STEWART: I'm not quite sure precisely what the procedure is

13 for filing, Your Honour, but as we have actually handed it to the Court --

14 JUDGE ORIE: I think a filing should be done at the registry

15 downstairs because there it's all registered, et cetera, et cetera, which

16 could -- but don't worry about that. This Chamber is not that formalistic

17 that if we know that a document will be filed, and of course in full

18 confidence that the filing will not be anything different from what we

19 receive, we'll look at the courtesy copies already prior to filing, if

20 urgency ask us to do so.

21 MR. STEWART: I understand, Your Honour. If my co-counsel won't

22 sign it, well, it'll just go in signed by me. Your Honour, may I say: We

23 undertake to file that at the first moment that one of our team can escape

24 from Court, which would be the first break.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Once the witness and counsel are in, the usher will

Page 908

1 immediately start making copies. But her first duty is to --

2 MR. STEWART: Of course. We understand, Your Honour. We've

3 obliged the help given this morning with this administration.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, I think it's not yourself, but

5 with the assistance of the security, could the witness be brought into the

6 courtroom.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Cvijetic in.

9 Good morning, Mr. Deronjic. May I remind you that you're still

10 bound by the solemn declaration you've made yesterday. Good morning.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, you may proceed.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, Counsel.

16 Examined by Mr. Harmon: [Continued]

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Deronjic.

18 A. Good morning, Mr. Harmon.

19 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I would like to focus your attention on some

20 additional aspects of how the SDS party organised itself in the

21 municipalities.

22 MR. HARMON: And if I could have the next exhibit, please. Could

23 I have its number, and if it could be shown to the witness.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P38.

25 MR. HARMON: If a copy of that could be shown to the witness.

Page 909

1 Q. Mr. Deronjic, have you seen this exhibit before you came into

2 Court today?

3 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon, I've seen this document.

4 Q. Now, this is a document that is dated the 15th of August, 1991.

5 It comes from the president of the Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina, and it is addressed to all municipal main board -- all

7 municipal boards of the SDS in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I would like

8 your comments on this document, please. Could you tell the Judges, one,

9 whether you have ever received a document similar to this; and could you

10 tell the Judges what this document signifies.

11 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon. As president of the municipal board of the

12 Serbian Democratic Party in Bratunac, I received this document in brief.

13 It talks about certain disciplinary measures within the SDS. And in 1991,

14 we received quite a lot of material of similar contents, where the SDS

15 officials at the local level are instructed to a certain kind of behaviour

16 in accordance with the directives of the Serbian Democratic Party.

17 Actually, we could say that a kind of discipline was being introduced into

18 the work of the local bodies of the SDS, and these guidelines for conduct

19 are actually what this is.

20 Q. Were these guidelines mandatory?

21 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon. The guidelines were binding, and we were obliged

22 to respect them.

23 Q. Now, on the B/C/S version that is before you, there appears at the

24 bottom to be a stamp. Can you tell us what stamp that is?

25 A. This is the stamp of the Serbian Democratic Party, the stamp of

Page 910

1 the Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 It's a stamp used by the -- or signifying the Main Board. That is the

3 only party stamp that I know of.

4 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Deronjic.

5 I'd like to turn your attention to an event that took place in the

6 joint assembly on the 14th and 15th of October, 1991, where the

7 deputies -- some of the deputies who were present passed a memorandum

8 supporting the creation of a sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina. Can you

9 tell us, first of all: Are you aware of that decision, that event?

10 A. I apologise. I didn't remember the month. The 14th and the

11 15th --

12 Q. Of October 1991. Are you aware of what happened in the assembly

13 on that date?

14 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon. This is what I understood. This is supposed to

15 refer to 1991, at a session of the Joint Assembly of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina. The representatives of two peoples, Muslims and Croats, in

17 the Joint Assembly supported the declaration on the independence of Bosnia

18 and Herzegovina, and practically from that date on, Bosnia and Herzegovina

19 became an independent state, in accordance with the desire of those

20 deputies.

21 Q. Now, there will be significant testimony about that particular

22 event, but in terms of the SDS party, what did that event signify for the

23 SDS party, in broad terms?

24 A. I remember that event by an activity of the SDS which followed

25 immediately after this assembly session. I will tell you what the first

Page 911

1 measure of the SDS was that I recall. We were invited on the 18th of

2 October to an extraordinary meeting, an urgent meeting of the SDS Main

3 Board. It was also attended by the presidents of the municipal boards.

4 At this meeting, which was chaired by the presidency of the SDS, headed by

5 Mr. Karadzic, we were given guidelines for conduct following this event,

6 and the way we interpreted the event was the unconstitutional declaration

7 of independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The guidelines were as

8 follows: Public discussions were supposed to be held as soon as possible,

9 to inform the people about the political importance of that event; and

10 then according to these guidelines that we received, we were to urgently

11 form crisis staffs of the Serbian people - that's what they were

12 called - in the municipalities. We were also told then that the

13 leadership of the party had decide that in the coming period - I think

14 that the date was already set then - a referendum would be held for the

15 opinion of the Serbian people to be heard on this event, and I think this

16 referendum was held in November, with one question: Were the Serbian

17 people in favour of remaining in Yugoslavia? I don't remember the exact

18 wording of this question.

19 Our task was to adhere to these measures for the conduct of the

20 members of the SDS and to make preparations for the referendum. I

21 remember that event. I think at the time it was also indicated. It was

22 actually stated that we would form an assembly, a Serb assembly,

23 comprising members of the Serbian ethnic group who were in the joint

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina assembly, which actually did happen subsequently.

25 Q. Now, at this particular meeting, you said that there were

Page 912

1 presidents from the SDS municipal boards. How many of the presidents from

2 the SDS municipal boards do you recall attending that particular meeting?

3 A. They were all obliged to attend, and I cannot remember

4 specifically that meeting, but I think practically all of them were

5 present. There were many of us at this meeting, because this was a major

6 political event.

7 Q. And was this also a meeting that was a meeting with the Main Board

8 as well?

9 A. Yes, of course, the Main Board, augmented by the presidents of the

10 municipal boards, as well as by the party officials.

11 Q. And you said that you were given tasks to adhere to, and my

12 question is: Were you given these tasks in the form of written documents

13 and instructions?

14 A. As far as I can remember, and I've refreshed my memory from the

15 minutes, I think that we received written documents about conduct. I

16 think they were called guidelines for the conduct of the Serbian people or

17 the SDS, in given circumstances.

18 Q. And were you, as a municipal SDS president, duty-bound to adhere

19 to those directives?

20 A. Yes. That is how I understood it from that meeting, that I was

21 duty-bound to apply those guidelines. And then on the 19th, in Bratunac,

22 I convened a session of the municipal board, at which these guidelines

23 were discussed, and tasks were assigned for their implementation.

24 Q. In terms of the direction of the SDS party policy, did this

25 meeting mark a significant event in your mind?

Page 913

1 A. Yes, of course. I think that that was a meeting which reflected

2 the policy trends of the SDS in 1991. I think it was one of the most

3 important meetings in relation to these new policies or this direction in

4 the conduct of the SDS.

5 Q. What was that direction the SDS was taking?

6 A. I said very briefly yesterday - perhaps I went into too much

7 detail - that in 1991 the direction of the SDS was to create

8 Republika Srpska. This is one of the dates, or this meeting is one of the

9 meetings which, in continuity, signifies a key event. Of course, the next

10 one which marked the forming of the Serbian Assembly was also a major

11 date.

12 Q. Now, having received these instructions, did you return to the

13 Bratunac municipality and implement them? And you can answer that

14 question yes or no at this point.

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, Your Honours, my next exhibit is a

17 photocopy of two volumes that I have received. Excuse me just a minute.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 MR. HARMON: There apparently is a technical problem,

20 Your Honours, but I think we can proceed. If it becomes a problem to

21 Your Honours, I would ask the Court's indulgence for a brief recess while

22 the technical problem can be cured. But I think we can proceed without

23 resolving it at this point.

24 Your Honour, what I'm going to -- my next exhibit is an exhibit

25 that is in B/C/S. It has -- it's multiple pages and it is an identical

Page 914

1 copy of two originals volumes that I have taken out of the Evidence Unit.

2 I have shown these to counsel. I'm prepared to let Your Honours inspect

3 these. But the witness has asked that these originals be brought in

4 because it's easier for him to answer questions by flipping through the

5 pages in these documents. And my request of the Court is that I be

6 permitted to have the witness have these two documents in front of him

7 while I ask him questions. The exact materials are photocopied in the

8 exhibit, and I have extracts that I will be referring to, and I will be

9 submitting as exhibits. They will be both in the B/C/S language and in

10 the English language.

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could we just be clear where this

12 material is to be found? Mr. Harmon did of course kindly show the items

13 to me for a brief inspection. I just wish to be clear at the moment.

14 When he says that the exact materials are photocopied in the exhibit, I'm

15 not quite sure physically what we're talking at the moment.

16 MR. HARMON: I'm talking about an exhibit that we have provided to

17 you that is -- it has a logo on the front. You should have this. This

18 was ...

19 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour.

20 [Defence counsel confer]

21 MR. STEWART: Well, I understand -- I'm sorry. We don't have it

22 in physical hard copy. So presumably it's on a CD. Could it just be

23 indicated where it is? That's all I'm asking, actually, just a simple

24 question. Through the Tribunal, if I may simply ask that. Because we're

25 just trying to follow what's happening. Sort of part of our job.

Page 915

1 MR. HARMON: I'm informed it was provided in CD.

2 MR. STEWART: Well, yes. That's -- Your Honour, that's helpful

3 only up to a point. Reference numbers are really very, very helpful. We

4 do have quite a few dozens and hundreds of CDs. Well, hundreds is may be

5 an exaggeration. I withdraw that. Certainly dozens. It feels like

6 hundreds.

7 MR. HARMON: I'm informed, Your Honour, that the Defence received

8 last night a list identifying this document, with an ERN number. This

9 document also is part of an expert report that was filed - I don't know

10 when - a year and a half ago. So this document has been available to the

11 Defence.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you: You say the Defence received

13 the list last night. Was this document on any previous list, indicated

14 as ...

15 MR. HARMON: I'm informed that the Defence received a hard copy of

16 this document on July 31st, 2002.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My question was whether it was listed on one of

18 the previous lists. I mean, we have the very -- I would say the very

19 practical problem that you can't review all CDs every night, so therefore,

20 one of the reasons of the existence of these lists is that, at least well

21 in advance, the attention is -- the attention is drawn to the fact that

22 these exhibits will be presented at this stage of the proceedings. Yes.

23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the day before yesterday, a list was

24 given to the Defence, listing this document.


Page 916

1 MR. HARMON: Last night, another list was given to the Defence

2 listing the same document.


4 MR. HARMON: This document was part of -- a hard copy of this

5 document was given, as I said, in July of 2002 to the Defence.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's -- I do understand it was in your view

7 not only in the CD-ROM.

8 Yes, Mr. Stewart.

9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm afraid that maybe there's some

10 confusion. At the moment, we do not think that this list was given to us

11 the day before yesterday. If Mr. Harmon is talking about some other list,

12 well, that may be -- it may be true. Your Honour, can I say: The

13 practical position, and Your Honour, after all, has some experience of

14 sitting in a sense where I'm sitting, in relation to other matters.

15 Documents supplied in July 2002, now, everybody knows that none of the

16 current Defence -- well, Ms. Cmeric was involved but the present counsel

17 were not involved at all.

18 The real world is that we cannot trawl through boxes and boxes of

19 documents picking out every document in B/C/S and bring it to Court with

20 us in case it should be a document which will be referred to in a

21 particular week on a particular day. That's simply human not possible.

22 Similarly, when we are provided with CD material, with sometimes limited

23 clues as to where it's going and what's on it, and labels which are simply

24 numbers that we can't cross-check, Your Honour knows that, as you've said,

25 we can't just in an evening go through a CD and identify everything. So

Page 917

1 far as this list -- may I just add, Your Honour, third point, with

2 respect: We did discuss with Mr. Harmon yesterday the absence in relation

3 to this witness as he began his evidence of the type of list of exhibits

4 which we have been given in relation to previous witnesses, and I

5 understood that the Prosecution had had their own problems, because

6 everybody has their own problems, in producing that list. But we have all

7 been handicapped by the absence of that list. So the point of my question

8 just now really was just to know where this stuff is. I can now see it.

9 I now see it. I have the CD -- well, in fact I've got it copied onto a

10 hard disk. I have it on my computer. While we've been talking over the

11 last few minutes, I see it, I have it up on my computer. But

12 realistically and humanly, it's not a task that we were able to do from

13 being provided with a CD with all the exhibits yesterday evening. All I'm

14 asking for, sometimes, is, in the difficult circumstances that we all

15 face, just a little bit more practical help and guidance as to where

16 material can be found. Because to say, well, you've had it, it's there

17 somewhere, you've got it, you were given it in 2002 or it's on a CD is not

18 going to enable the Defence to do its job and it's not going to enable

19 this trial to proceed properly.

20 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, if I may respond briefly. I want the

21 record to be clear on this. We didn't tell the Defence it's on a CD, go

22 look for it. Two days ago we gave the Defence a list identifying the

23 document, identifying the ERN number, both in the B/C/S version and in the

24 English version. Last night we reordered the exhibit list, and we gave

25 them a second list identifying the same materials in the same form. So

Page 918

1 this is not a situation of trying to find a needle in a haystack. This is

2 a situation where two days ago they were directed specifically to this

3 exhibit.

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wonder if we might, to clarify this,

5 may we be simply shown this list that we said -- I don't say we weren't,

6 but at the moment I'm simply mystified. If I could have a look at this

7 list that apparently we were given two days ago, then I would know what

8 we're talking about. But I am handicapped at the moment, Your Honour.

9 Maybe it's my fault. I hope I shall graciously withdraw if it turns out

10 we've had something which made it all crystal clear and we overlooked it,

11 but at the moment I simply don't know what we're talking about.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see. I do understand that on this

13 list -- and the Chamber has received copies of this list, The first one

14 without the trial exhibit numbers on it yet and the second one with for

15 the first five, or I should say, seven documents the numbers P33 until

16 P37. Where does it appear exactly on the list, Mr. Harmon?

17 MR. HARMON: I have a list, Your Honour. It is on page 2 of the

18 list.


20 MR. HARMON: The first list.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Harmon.

22 MR. HARMON: I apologise. It is page 2 of the list, third and the

23 fourth item down on that list. It says: "Minutes of assembly sessions,"

24 and it says number of pages to the right, 91 and 97.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That appears quite, I would say, not on top of

Page 919

1 the list, but it's among the first ten items. I think that was on the

2 original list. I think at this very moment the most important thing is

3 whether the -- first of all, whether the Defence would have a hard copy or

4 could be provided with a hard copy so that it would be more easy to follow

5 the testimony to be given by this witness. Would there be any other

6 suggestion to stop on this point or ...? Mr. Stewart, you have explained

7 your difficulties and you've said what you would like to have done in a

8 different way, but now let's be practical and see what consequences this

9 should result in at this moment.

10 MR. STEWART: I'm not suggesting -- we're not -- we're not, I

11 think, right now handicapped in any way that there's any reason for the

12 evidence not to proceed, but can I just say, Your Honour: I'm still not

13 sure that we have a list dated 12/02/04, 1802. That's what we're looking

14 at this morning. Now, if a moment ago Your Honour or Mr. Harmon were

15 looking at a different list, just within the last two or three minutes

16 when he was referring to this item, then I'm back to the point I made: I

17 don't know what list it is we're talking about.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I've got two lists in front of me. The first one,

19 the 12th of the second -- of 2004, time 8:41. The other one is the 12th

20 of the 2nd, 04, 18 hours, 20 minutes. We find that in the bottom of

21 the -- of all pages, right-hand bottom. But the documents appear on both

22 lists, and the easiest way is to find the number of pages, and on

23 the -- well, let's say the early list, it appears on page 2, items 3 and

24 4, and on the other list. I must say, the time indicated only appears on

25 the -- there's a cover sheet, I see, and a time and a date appears only on

Page 920

1 the next pages, which start with 1. So the structure of the pages is on

2 from page 2 of that last document the same, but it in addition has a cover

3 sheet where we mainly find the numbers P33 and up until P37. Perhaps I

4 just show to you, this is the cover page.

5 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. May I just comment. The two

6 lists Your Honour --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry. Now I turned my microphone on. The two

9 lists that Your Honour is referring to are both dated the 12th of

10 February, which is yesterday. The timing of the later one is slightly

11 different, perhaps it's just a different printout, because our timing is

12 1802. But may I observe that the earlier one that Your Honour referred to

13 was dated, timed 8:41 yesterday morning. Well, at 8:41 yesterday morning

14 the Defence team is really involved in that very important technical tasks

15 of making sure our wigs are straight and we're ready to come into Court.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's be practical. Whatever has to be clarified, in

17 view of lists and whether they are given are not, is not something we

18 should go through in detail at this very moment. I did understand that

19 for the continuation of the examination-in-chief at this moment, there are

20 no insurmountable problems. Let's proceed with that. Let's see if

21 there's any matter to be clarified, let the parties see whether they could

22 do that during the break, and if there's any remaining issue we'll hear

23 from you. Mr. Harmon, you may proceed.

24 MR. HARMON: Yes. Your Honour, may I then have first of all these

25 exhibits passed to Your Honours if Your Honours wish to inspect them, and

Page 921

1 then to the witness.


3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 MR. HARMON: Can I ask the registrar for the exhibit number of the

5 copy that we will be tendering into evidence.

6 THE REGISTRAR: For ERN number 02192709, it will be Prosecution

7 Exhibit number P39. And for document bearing ERN number 02192549, it will

8 be Prosecution Exhibit number P40.

9 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much.

10 Q. Mr. Deronjic, in front of you are two volumes. Before we go into

11 those volumes, I would like to ask you some questions about them. Can you

12 identify those volumes? Can you tell the Judges what they are, when they

13 were prepared, and how they were prepared. And if you wait just a minute.

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]


16 Q. Please proceed.

17 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon. These are records, or minutes, from all the

18 sessions of the municipal board of the SDS, from 1990 to spring 1996, that

19 is, all sessions of the municipal board that I held in Bratunac, for which

20 the minutes were made.

21 Q. Do you recognise those documents as being the proper minutes?

22 A. Yes. These are original minutes, bearing all the signatures of

23 the recording secretary and my own.

24 Q. Now, let me return to your testimony relating to the meeting in

25 Sarajevo on the 18th of October, 1991. You said that you returned to

Page 922

1 Bratunac, understanding instructions that you had received, and you

2 implemented those in Bratunac.

3 MR. HARMON: If I could have the next exhibit shown to the

4 witness, which is an extract from these minutes. For the help of the

5 registrar, these start out with minutes, and then it says "of the

6 emergency meeting."

7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P41.

8 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Harmon. I'm ready --

10 MR. HARMON: Just wait a minute, Mr. Deronjic. We seem to have

11 another technical problem.

12 Perhaps, rather than delay while we try to resolve the technical

13 problem: The registrar has a copy of the English version that can be put

14 on the screen - on the ELMO, I'm sorry - and we can proceed.

15 Q. Mr. Deronjic, do you have before you the minutes of the meeting

16 that were convened upon your return to Bratunac municipality?

17 A. Yes, I do have it in front of me.

18 Q. And are these the minutes that are in the exhibit that are before

19 you?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Can you explain what you did when you returned to Bratunac after

22 that meeting on the 18th of October.

23 A. Upon return from the session of the Main Board, held in Sarajevo

24 on the 18th October, 1991, as written in these minutes, I informed the

25 municipal board on the stances taken by the Main Board and the measures

Page 923

1 that were adopted as guidelines for the conduct of local organs. From

2 these minutes, we can see that we indeed applied all these measures. We

3 appointed a commission for carrying out of a plebiscite of the Serbian

4 people, elected five members on to this commission, elected also a Crisis

5 Staff of the Serbian People, of which I became the president.

6 We furthermore agreed on guard duty in party offices and scheduled

7 a public debate in Bratunac to acquaint the citizenship with the

8 guidelines that were ordered by the Main Board to be implemented in

9 municipalities.

10 Q. And if you could turn, Mr. Deronjic, to point 5. And please, if

11 that could be shown on the ELMO.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- the Chamber would like to see not only

13 the upper part of the first page, but just briefly also the down parts.

14 If we could go back to page 1, and also have just a glance on the -- yes.

15 Yes. We could now move to the next page.

16 MR. HARMON: And if we can start at the top of the page and do the

17 same thing for the Judges and then end on paragraph 5.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm reading slowly, but not that slowly. Yes.


20 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I invite your comments on paragraph 5, please. What

21 does that mean?

22 A. The president of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of

23 Bratunac, Mr. Rodoljub Djukanovic, as far as I can remember, informed the

24 municipal board of the SDS about the process of regionalisation, that is,

25 activities related to the creation of Serbian Autonomous districts. There

Page 924

1 is somewhere in the minutes one meeting where we accepted the initiative

2 to create the Serbian Autonomous District of Birac, which included the

3 municipality of Bratunac, and then at the following meeting we adopted a

4 decision to support the establishment of the Birac Autonomous District,

5 which was established in January. The last one out of all these regional

6 communities to be formed. And then the current conclusion is to acquaint

7 the population as soon as possible with the new situation, in keeping with

8 the decision of the Main Board to hold public debates and to acquaint the

9 citizenship with the current situation.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Deronjic. We'll move to the next exhibit, please?

11 MR. STEWART: Can I just clarify, Your Honour? That seems to us,

12 unless I'm mistaken, that seems to be pages 84 and 85. It's listed as

13 page 83 on the printout, but I -- it's coming up as pages 84 and 85.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Is that a matter of translation? Is the original 83?

15 Perhaps the witness could check in the original whether what he finds

16 on --

17 MR. STEWART: The page reference is given under the translation

18 column, Your Honour, so --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I've seen that. It says 83. But we could

20 perhaps check in the original.

21 Yes. Could you please open the original, perhaps put it on the

22 ELMO, and show us page 83. And if you do not find anything there, page 84

23 and 85.

24 MR. HARMON: It could be a translation error.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, let's clarify the issue.

Page 925

1 MR. HARMON: It may be a reference to the translation page number.

2 That's what I'm thinking.

3 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, I don't understand that. I'm looking at

4 the translation and it's pages 84 and 85.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps it's a reference to the original.

6 That's what I'm trying to check.

7 Could we put the original page 83 on the ELMO. Could I just have

8 the original. The problem seems to be, Mr. Harmon, that there is no

9 original page numbering in the handwritten copies, so the pages must refer

10 to anything else.

11 MR. HARMON: I believe those might be -- the translators have put

12 in those numbers.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you try to find out that. We know at this

14 moment what translation we have, and during the break we -- I take it

15 there is nothing in the translation which does not appear in the original.

16 MR. HARMON: That's what I'm informed, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it says 83 of 86, and since the number of

18 pages is 91 and 97, the first, P41.1, translation ERN says page 33. On

19 the bottom of the page I find 83 of 86, and then on the second page, I

20 find 84 of 86. So I take it that the correct indication for P41 in

21 translation would be pages 83 and 84 out of 86, of the translation

22 numbering. But, Mr. Stewart.

23 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, can I just -- it isn't -- it

24 isn't that I'm trying to be difficult. Some may say I don't need to try,

25 that it comes naturally. But the position, Your Honour, is this: That,

Page 926

1 for example, I am working now, as I take it I've been invited to do, I'm

2 working from the CD of exhibits -- well, in fact I've copied the contents

3 over to a hard disk but for practical purposes I'm working from a CD of

4 exhibits that I've been provided with, and on that, the numbering is, as

5 I've indicated to Your Honour, it's pages 84 and 85.


7 MR. STEWART: So it's only this, Your Honour, if I may say. This

8 is only one tiny point and I acknowledge the Prosecution have their

9 difficulties; nobody can get everything right all the time. It only this

10 seems a tiny point but when it's multiplied Your Honour knows that every

11 time we come across this sort of difficulty, that can be another five or

12 ten minutes sorting it out when we're trying to prepare work on the case.

13 That's all. And these are cumulative difficulties when we're under

14 enormous pressure anyway.

15 JUDGE ORIE: It's my experience that sometimes by copying

16 documents, page numbering, especially if this is automatic page numbering,

17 sometimes differs as well. I'm aware of the problem. Let's concentrate

18 at this moment on the content, and whenever it would bother you in such a

19 way that you have difficulties in following the testimony, then of course

20 we will deal with it during the hearing. If it's a problem that could be

21 solved during a break or if can could be clarified during a break, the

22 Chamber would appreciate if the parties would try to do that.

23 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


Page 927

1 Q. Now, Mr. Deronjic, we have finished with P41. I'd like to go to

2 the next exhibit, please. And I assume that will be P42.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P42.

4 MR. HARMON: And if those -- the English version of that could be

5 placed on the ELMO, and the B/C/S version given to Mr. Deronjic.

6 Q. We'll start with just showing on the ELMO the top of

7 this -- Mr. Deronjic, take a moment and examine, please, the B/C/S version

8 of Exhibit P42.

9 Mr. Deronjic, does this appear to be the minutes from an SDS

10 municipal board session held on the 25th of October, 1991?

11 A. Yes. These are the minutes from that meeting.

12 Q. And was this meeting in respect of continuing to implement the

13 directives that you had received on the 18th of October in Sarajevo?

14 A. Yes, that is correct. As far as I can understand now, this

15 meeting took place a few days after this first meeting, and then the

16 election of the Crisis Staff was confirmed at the meeting, and then

17 further details about the plebiscite were developed a little more. A

18 commission was also elected for propaganda and technical assistance in the

19 implementation of the plebiscite. Also, the agenda was augmented with a

20 decision on regionalisation. So in item 4, it says that the assembly

21 accepts the decision -- the board on the formation of the Autonomous

22 Region of Birac, and therefore we accepted the idea of regionalisation,

23 which resulted in the creation of the Birac region in January of 1992.

24 Q. And could you comment on item number 1 on the agenda. I'm sorry.

25 Item number 1 below the five items listed on the agenda. Starting -- I'll

Page 928

1 read it for you to orient you. "The president briefly introduced the

2 board with the founding of the Serbian Assembly, its tasks and aims. The

3 board unanimously accepted all the tasks."

4 Can you comment on that, please.

5 A. Yes. We were told on the 18th of October that a Serbian assembly

6 would be formed, and what its tasks would be, and they were preparations

7 to establish Republika Srpska. I informed the board about this briefly,

8 as much as I was able to do, based on the information from that meeting.

9 The board unanimously accepted these tasks that we were supposed to

10 implement.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Deronjic. Now, we have talked about the 18th of

12 October, 1991 meeting. I would now like to fast-forward two months to a

13 meeting that was held in Sarajevo on the 19th of December, 1991. And I'd

14 ask you if you can tell us about the meeting that took place on that date.

15 First of all, if you could tell us who summoned you.

16 A. The meeting of the 19th -- I'm not sure about the dates. I said

17 that during the interview. The meeting was held on or about the 19th of

18 December, in Sarajevo, in 1991. I went there at the invitation of the

19 party secretariat. I cannot remember exactly who invited me. The meeting

20 was of a similar kind. It was an expanded meeting of the Main Board,

21 including party officials and the presidents of the municipal boards.

22 I remember the date also, because during those few days - I don't

23 know exactly whether it was the 20th or the 21st - an assembly session was

24 held, at which the assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina was established. At this meeting, which took place one day

Page 929

1 before or one day after this assembly session - I really don't

2 remember - received documents about the future conduct of the party

3 officials and the Serbian people in general. I think that's what it was

4 called. And this document -- or the measures are known as Variant A and

5 B, and these measures were supposed to be implemented in the field by all

6 the party organs.

7 Q. Let me just ask you, Mr. Deronjic, to identify, if you can, the

8 people you remember who were present at that meeting. You've identified

9 the fact that there were SDS municipal board presidents, expanded Main

10 Board. Can you just fill in by identifying by name the people you saw at

11 that meeting.

12 A. This was an assembly session that was a key event during those

13 days, the convening of the Serbian Assembly. At that meeting, I saw, as

14 far as I can remember, the top officials of the Serbian Democratic Party,

15 including the party presidency, including Mr. Krajisnik, who was preparing

16 the assembly session. The meeting about the A and B variant materials was

17 held independently of the assembly session, of course, and the only thing

18 that I remember from that meeting -- of course, all the members of the

19 Main Board were present, and officials of the party, local ones too. I

20 couldn't really remember the individual -- every individual who attended

21 it at the time, but I know that that meeting, where the A and B variant

22 materials were presented, was chaired by Mr. Karadzic. I remembered some

23 of his sentences and some of the views he expressed regarding the

24 self-organising of Serbs out in the field.

25 To make it brief: It was a well-known event, attended by all the

Page 930

1 top party officials and people who had to date participated in the joint

2 authorities: Mr. Koljevic, Mrs. Plavsic. I'm not sure whether I saw you

3 all of them, but I did see some of them.

4 Q. Did you see Goran Zekic from a neighbouring municipality?

5 A. Yes. Yes. We travelled together. Goran Zekic and myself. We

6 most often went to all of those meetings together. Zekic was also a

7 member of the assembly. He was a deputy in the assembly, so he was

8 obliged to attend the meeting.

9 Q. Did you see Brano Grujic, from the Zvornik municipality?

10 A. I mentioned the names of the people. I tried to recall them. I'm

11 not sure whether I saw him or not. I more or less mentioned the people

12 who should have been there. I think I did see him there, but I cannot be

13 100 per cent certain.

14 Q. And what about Rajko Dukic?

15 A. Rajko Dukic did attend that meeting.

16 Q. All right.

17 MR. HARMON: Now if I can have the next exhibit, please. And I am

18 informed that there is no technical problem at the moment, so it will

19 appear on the screen. Thank you to the registrar for assisting me with

20 the ELMO.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P43.


23 Q. Mr. Deronjic, let me ask you if you have seen a copy of this

24 document before coming in to testify.

25 A. Yes, of course. We received this document in 1991, at this

Page 931

1 meeting that I discussed.

2 Q. And this is -- the document that is in front of you is a copy,

3 copy number 100. You mentioned that you received a copy of a document

4 before you left. Did the other presidents of the municipal boards also

5 receive copies of the same document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know if this was the copy that was provided to you or was

8 provided to somebody else? Are you able to tell?

9 A. Excuse me. What do you mean, "this copy?" Do you mean the

10 contents of this copy?

11 Q. The contents of this copy.

12 A. Yes. Yes. I am trying to go through the whole thing to the end.

13 I think that that is the content. I cannot read everything right now, but

14 I believe, yes, that that is the content.

15 MR. HARMON: May I have the assistance of the usher one more time,

16 please. If I could have the English translation. This is a

17 mistranslation, the copy that is on the computer screen. I apologise to

18 the Court. If I could have the English version placed on the ELMO.

19 Actually, now the proper translation has appeared on the screen, so I'm

20 getting used to this technology, Your Honour. I apologise. I don't need

21 this placed on the ELMO any longer. The proper translation has been

22 placed on the screen.

23 Q. Mr. Deronjic, if you look at the upper left-hand corner of the

24 document before you, can you tell us who issued these instructions?

25 A. The instructions were issued by the Main Board of the Serbian

Page 932

1 Democratic Party.

2 Q. Now, in the upper right-hand corner, it says: "Strictly

3 confidential."

4 A. Yes, that's correct. The material was strictly confidential.

5 That's what it said on the material itself. And I must say that we also

6 in the municipalities applied a certain degree of confidentiality, perhaps

7 not a strict confidentiality as it is stated here, but we did have such

8 materials.

9 Q. Now, who instructed you at that meeting about the contents of this

10 document?

11 A. Mr. Karadzic gave us the instructions on this.

12 Q. What did he tell you?

13 A. There were comments on events that had taken place before in the

14 light of that event, in particular, of the 14th and the 15th of October,

15 when it was noted that -- and of course I'm not quoting; I'm just trying

16 to remember the sense of it, the sense of the address by Mr. Karadzic, and

17 that that event, the voting and the support of the declaration for the

18 independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina was an unconstitutional act and

19 that it represented a violation of the basic rights of the Serbian people

20 as a constitutive people of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that these

21 measures, these confidential members which we received on the organising,

22 as we called them, on the self-protection of the Serbian people in Bosnia

23 and Herzegovina, and that these measures we were duty-bound to implement

24 in the municipalities.

25 They represented a form. Besides the measures which we were to

Page 933

1 implement, they were a kind of extraordinary circumstance within the SDS,

2 and you can see from the material that it was necessary to convene daily

3 meetings of crisis staffs, municipal boards, and so on. And I remembered

4 that meeting. I'm only able to quote one sentence spoken by

5 Mr. President, that we were duty-bound to ensure contacts with every

6 man - they were thinking of Serbs - in the municipality and, if possible,

7 if there were no other contacts, we were obliged to ensure physical

8 contacts with people in the field, by messenger or courier. That's what

9 it was said. And it was suggested that municipal boards should distribute

10 amongst the officials in the local boards the number of families that they

11 would be in charge of. We're not only talking about discipline, but a

12 kind of care for these people; to monitor their health situation, their

13 social situation, and, amongst other things, absolute discipline, and that

14 people should be connected amongst themselves out in the field, meaning

15 that the officials of the SDS were supposed to create a network which

16 would cover all the people. That was the gist of Mr. Karadzic's address.

17 Q. Did these instructions make a distinction between municipalities

18 where Serbs were in the majority of the population and where they were in

19 the minority of the population?

20 A. Yes. I was obliged to implement these documents, and I had a

21 clear concept of what they were. There was Variant A and Variant B. The

22 Variant A referred to municipalities in which the Serbs were in a

23 majority, and it wasn't something that was interesting for the Bratunac

24 municipality. Variant B represented a programme of measures for those

25 municipalities which had a minority Serb population. Both the variants

Page 934

1 had two levels. There were two levels or degrees of mobility, or

2 mobilisation, out in the field.

3 The first level, which I would qualify as a milder level, which

4 was introduced right away at that meeting itself, the introduction or

5 application of level 1 was declared right there. Level 2 was something

6 that depended on the circumstances and that we would be informed later

7 when that would be applied.

8 So the variants A and B represented the options for those

9 municipalities which had either a majority or a minority Serb population.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, you moved to the next subject, but one

11 thing is not clear to me from the previous subject. You said it was not

12 all about discipline, but it was also about discipline. Discipline to do

13 what? To send your children in time to school, or what was this

14 "discipline" about?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, they talked about

16 discipline in the party organs, and a kind of mobility of the party

17 organs, as well as a discipline implementation of the tasks which the

18 municipal board would assign to the local boards within a municipality.

19 That was the kind of discipline they meant.

20 Secondly, there were instructions that already for stage 1, you

21 had to have regular daily meetings of the municipal and regional boards,

22 and then we had to report back on these meetings to the Main Board and the

23 presidency of the party at the republican level. That is the kind of

24 discipline that they meant. It constituted a kind of ...

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you are raising the issue of discipline not

Page 935

1 in relation to party discipline but in the context of responsibility to

2 keep close contact with, I think it was 10 or 20 families. My question

3 is: Were these families also expected to behave in a disciplinary way,

4 and was that the reason that people would even seek physical contact with

5 these families?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I understood, these were

7 security measures, Your Honour, in the sense of informing people about

8 certain extraordinary circumstances. So the local boards were entrusted

9 with staying in contact with the local population in case of certain

10 measures. Let's say in case of some kind of alert or the outbreak of

11 hostilities. So in cases like that, the local boards would be able to

12 convey to the population what had happened and to also provide some kind

13 of care for those people in such an event.

14 JUDGE ORIE: We were talking about discipline, not about taking

15 care of what could happen to those families. But we're talking about

16 discipline in relation to these families. What kind of discipline were

17 they expected to show?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The population, Your Honour, at that

19 time - perhaps I misspoke - no discipline was expected of them. But the

20 officials of the SDS were expected to take care about their own conduct,

21 to make sure that their conduct was disciplined at that point. We even

22 adopted a measure forbidding the officials from leaving, the SDS officials

23 from being absent during such periods.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then read to you what your testimony was in

25 this respect. You said that: "It was suggested that the municipal boards

Page 936

1 should distribute amongst the official and the local boards the number of

2 families that they would be in charge of. We're not only talking about

3 discipline, but a kind of care for these people, to monitor their health

4 situation, their social situation, and, amongst other things, absolute

5 discipline."

6 I take it that taking care of the health situation and taking care

7 of the social situation was directly related in your answer to the

8 families, and in your answer I see not any distinction that the discipline

9 was for the party officials and that the health care was for the families.

10 So my direct question to you is: Were the families expected to join in

11 discipline together with the party?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Such conduct was expected.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This is a bit contrary to what you said one

14 minute ago. But discipline in respect of what exactly? Not intervening

15 if any armed activity would come up, in leaving the villages, if ordered?

16 What kind of discipline were they expected to show?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we skipped a topic, or

18 some activities which we implemented in the course of the summer, and that

19 was the arming of the people. A large number of the population at the

20 time, on one side and the other, were armed. In Bratunac, there were a

21 number of conflicts already in the previous period. The disciplinary

22 measures obliged people to behave in accordance with the instructions of

23 the organs of the SDS in the field, so with the instructions of the local

24 boards who were in charge of that region. What these could be depends on

25 the events that could ensue, but they were duty-bound to carry out the

Page 937

1 measures of the local board in a disciplined way, which they would be

2 instructed to do. Sometimes there was guard duty that was required, or,

3 for example, the securing of some key facilities, or the possibility for

4 the preparation of food reserves in that area. This is what I was

5 thinking of, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: In your answer, you also spoke about the population

7 being armed on both sides. Would the discipline also cover the receiving

8 arms and keeping arms available for events to come?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Would the discipline be also expected from Serbs who

11 were not party members?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were different views on this,

13 but I think that it -- the population was supporting the SDS, and this was

14 expected.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was not asking whether they were supporting

16 the SDS, but whether this discipline was also expected from non-party

17 members. And you say it was expected from them, at least if I understand

18 your testimony correctly, it was expected from them, but it caused no

19 problems because they were in support of the party anyhow, even if not

20 members. Is that a correct understanding?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Perhaps we didn't

22 understand one another very well. When we were forming the Crisis Staff

23 in the municipality, according to instructions from October 1991, the

24 Crisis Staff was called the Crisis Staff of the Serbian People, with the

25 obvious intent that it should encompass the entire Serb population,

Page 938

1 regardless of party affiliation. And we were instructed to hold public

2 panel discussions and to inform the people about the measures that we were

3 implementing, and to see whether the people were supporting what we were

4 doing. I did hold such a discussion panel. I did inform the people at a

5 public gathering about these measures, and I did receive support. Nobody

6 was opposed to my stance. The Crisis Staff of the Serbian People which we

7 formed also included non-party people. There are their names here in the

8 minutes, and I can tell you exactly which prominent figures were included

9 in this category.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm not asking you that. I'm just drawing your

11 attention to when you talked about discipline, it was about SDS, and now

12 we hear that there was some relevant information as far as crisis staffs

13 are concerned as well.

14 I intervened. I have no further questions. But at the same time,

15 it's 10.30, so I'd like to have a break, and we'll adjourn until 5 minutes

16 to 11.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, please proceed.

20 MR. HARMON: Before I continue with my examination, Your Honour, I

21 wish to inform the Court that during the discussion on when the lists were

22 provided to Defence counsel, I had been informed that the first list was

23 provided two days ago. During the recess -- I therefore informed the

24 Court of that. I had been informed during the recess that indeed the list

25 was provided to the Defence yesterday morning, the first list, and the

Page 939

1 second list at around 6.00. So I apologise for providing incorrect

2 information to the Court, and I apologise to counsel as well.

3 MR. STEWART: Well, the apology is accepted, Your Honour, of

4 course.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.


7 Q. Mr. Deronjic, we were talking about Variant A and Variant B, the

8 document that is marked "strictly confidential." Can you tell the

9 Trial Chamber why this document was marked "strictly confidential"?

10 A. Mr. Harmon, I think it's strictly confidential because I suppose

11 it was not meant to fall into the hands of the authorities of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina. I suppose that's the reason. We were not specifically told

13 why it was strictly confidential, or at least I don't remember that we

14 were.

15 Q. And in your view, Mr. Deronjic, what was the purpose of organising

16 in this fashion?

17 A. The purpose of the Serbs organising themselves in this fashion was

18 twofold, I believe. One was to implement measures to create

19 Republika Srpska, because Variant B implies the establishment of parallel

20 institutions at the municipal level. And when I say "parallel," I mean

21 purely Serbian as opposed to the institutions that were in place at the

22 time. Whereas in Variant B, it implied the association and linkage of

23 Serbian municipalities into one entity.

24 At that time, republican departments -- republican authorities

25 were formed, such as police centres, parallel to the existing ones at the

Page 940

1 level of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And on the other hand, these documents

2 were meant to help the Serbian people organise themselves, in view of the

3 war and possible threats and conflicts breaking out, because the

4 implementation of this radical plan of creating Republika Srpska implied

5 the possibility of war. I must remind you that all these events took

6 place against the background of the open war raging in the Republic of

7 Croatia, which was followed closely in our country.

8 MR. HARMON: Could I have the next exhibit in order given an

9 exhibit number and presented to the witness, please.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P44.


12 Q. Mr. Deronjic, upon receiving these confidential instructions, did

13 you return to Bratunac with them and take steps to implement them?

14 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon. On the 23rd December 1991, four days after my

15 return from Sarajevo, or wherever it was - whenever it was exactly that

16 this meeting in Sarajevo took place - we held a meeting of the municipal

17 board, and the agenda included review of the decision and documents of the

18 meeting of the SDS in Sarajevo, and we adopted certain decisions related

19 to the background material I brought from that meeting.

20 Q. And is Prosecutor's Exhibit 44 the minutes from that meeting that

21 was held on the 23rd of December, 1991?

22 A. Excuse me. I don't see this mark, P40 -- yes, I see it here on

23 top. P44, yes. Those are the minutes of that meeting.

24 Q. Now, in -- you've described this document as making a distinction

25 between municipalities where Serbs are in the minority, Variant B. And in

Page 941

1 this case, the Bratunac municipality, as you said, was a Variant B

2 municipality; correct?

3 A. Yes, correct.

4 Q. And under these confidential instructions, you were to take

5 certain steps, certain specified steps. Mr. Deronjic, did you take all of

6 the steps that were required, or can you describe to the Court what steps

7 you did take.

8 A. We took most of the steps indicated in the documents that I had

9 brought from the meeting of the Main Board of the SDS. These meetings

10 largely reflect all the measures that we took. We scheduled a founding

11 meeting of the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bratunac and we adopted

12 the decision to hold this assembly on the 12th of December, 1991. Just a

13 minute. Let me check. Sorry. 30th December. And there are minutes of

14 that assembly meeting.

15 In other words, we formed a parallel assembly in Bratunac,

16 involving all Serbian MPs and Serbs who were deputies representing the SDP

17 party. Other parties were not represented in the assembly at all.

18 Then we decided to form the Crisis Staff of the SDS. I want to

19 clarify here that for practical reasons in Bratunac, we did not form a

20 separate crisis staff, as the documents instructed us, because, according

21 to the instruction of the 18th of October, a crisis staff had already been

22 formed, and we just verified this existing crisis staff as the SDS Crisis

23 Staff.

24 Furthermore, we introduced guard duty in the municipal board of

25 the SDS and in all the local boards, and we conveyed to the local boards

Page 942

1 all the measures to be taken regarding networking, linking all the people

2 into one network and securing a smooth flow of information towards people

3 in the field. All these steps were taken, and from that point on we

4 started to engage in the activities of the crisis staff, which we

5 formalised as the SDS Crisis Staff.

6 MR. HARMON: Now if I could have the next exhibit marked, please.

7 If that exhibit could be given to the witness.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution exhibit number P45.


10 Q. Mr. Deronjic, take a moment to cast your eye on that.

11 Mr. Deronjic, you described these confidential instructions as having two

12 phases: Phase 1 and phase 2. Did you eventually receive instructions to

13 implement phase 2 of Variant A and Variant B? You can answer that yes or

14 no.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who ordered it implemented?

17 A. The order came from the Main Board, and it was related to us by

18 Mr. Zekic, Mr. Goran Zekic.

19 Q. And Mr. Goran Zekic at the time was a member of the Main Board;

20 isn't that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, having received that instruction from Mr. Zekic, did you

23 indeed implement phase 2 of Variant A and B, and does Prosecutor's Exhibit

24 45 represent the minutes of a meeting held in the municipal board on the

25 24th of February, 1992, where those -- the second phase was implemented?

Page 943

1 A. Yes. We introduced the second phase of the Variant A and Variant

2 B documents, and this document represents the minutes of the meeting of

3 the municipal board of the 24th February 1992. Just one thing: It says

4 here "minutes of the meeting of the Main Board." It is no Main Board. It

5 is the municipal board. It must be an error made by the recording

6 secretary who erroneously typed "Main Board." It was the municipal board

7 of Bratunac.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, could that be checked? Because in the

9 English translation, it reads "municipal board," which of course could

10 cause some doubt in the quality of the translation.

11 MR. HARMON: That's what my exhibit reflects as well, and this is

12 an official translation. So I will check and we can --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Deronjic, could you please read the first line of

14 these minutes and then slowly, please, so that we can get it translated,

15 and we have to see whether there is really a question of a translation

16 problem.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency. "Minutes of

18 the meeting of the Main Board held on the 24th of February, 1992, starting

19 at 1700 hours." And then it says: "35 deputies --"

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's sufficient.

21 MR. HARMON: Perhaps it could be just corrected orally in the

22 record.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since we now have -- first of all, the witness

24 has drawn our attention to it, secondly, it's confirmed by the

25 translators. So therefore I'd rather not send the document back to the

Page 944

1 translation services and deal with it in this way.


3 Q. Now, the first item on the agenda, according to these minutes,

4 Mr. Deronjic, was the implementation of level 2, the state of emergency.

5 My question to you is: Was that agenda item adopted unanimously?

6 A. Yes. I don't remember the meeting itself, but it says in the

7 minutes that the agenda was adopted unanimously.

8 Q. Now, what role and importance did phase 2 of Variant A and B

9 instructions have in respect of the developments in Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina? Can you comment on that, please.

11 A. The second degree, or second phase, of variants A and B implied

12 the introduction of new measures in the organising of the Serbian people

13 in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that primarily referred to the

14 establishment of parallel institutions. According to variants A and B, it

15 was our duty to establish the assembly, and in the second phase of Variant

16 B, we were to form a complete executive board of the Serbian assembly at the

17 local level. I must say that for various reasons we didn't do that in

18 Bratunac, because we held this session of the assembly belatedly.

19 Then Variant B also envisages the establishment of other parallel

20 institutions, primarily police ones and security institutions, such as the

21 Territorial Defence, the judiciary, health care institutions, separation

22 of education establishments. All these were measures envisaged by

23 Variants A and B in their second stage. And we adapted in Bratunac these

24 measures, because we were not able to strictly follow these orders, for a

25 number of reasons. And if you need clarification, I will be happy to

Page 945

1 provide it.

2 Q. Can you clarify that very briefly, Mr. Deronjic.

3 A. I'm afraid I can't be very brief, but I'll try. We did not have

4 the practical possibilities for forming parallel institutions, and that's

5 why we gave up on that immediately. On the other hand, there were

6 misgivings, and perhaps a not complete understanding of all this, and

7 that's why we held a session of the municipal board, in its enlarged

8 composition, to include representatives of the local boards, because we

9 were afraid of conflicts arising, because Bratunac was already living in a

10 very tense atmosphere.

11 We decided to maintain contacts with Muslim representatives, to

12 hold regular assembly sessions, joint assembly sessions, and to try at

13 those joint sessions to agree on some acceptable measures envisaged by

14 these Variants A and B, such as separating the police force in Bratunac.

15 We managed to agree on that and we implemented that decision.

16 Q. All right. Thank you for that explanation, Mr. Deronjic.

17 I'd like to change the topic and I'd like to focus on a new area,

18 and that is the subject of how the Bosnian Serbs from your region received

19 weapons. And I would like you, Mr. Deronjic, to focus your attention to

20 sometime around approximately April of 1991, and ask you: When was the

21 first time that you became aware that weapons were being provided to the

22 Serbian people in your region?

23 A. I first learned of this arming in an organised form in April 1991,

24 at a meeting between Mr. Dukic, president of the Executive Board of SDS;

25 Goran Zekic; and myself. That was held in Milici in the second half of

Page 946

1 April, towards the end of April perhaps. I can't remember the exact date,

2 but I remember the venue.

3 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Deronjic. Just stop, because we're still

4 getting acquainted with many of these figures in the SDS. Can you inform

5 the Judges -- you said Mr. Dukic. Is that Rajko Dukic?

6 A. Yes, that's him.

7 Q. Can you inform the Judges a little bit about Mr. Dukic, who he is,

8 what the positions he held in the SDS party, and what influence you

9 believe he had in that party.

10 A. Before the SDS was established, I didn't know Mr. Dukic. I had

11 only heard of him. He was a businessman, director, one of the largest

12 companies in Bosnia and Herzegovina in the pre-war period, namely, the

13 bauxite mine in Milici, which used to be part of a single municipality,

14 Vlasenica. Mr. Dukic is one of the founders of the SDS. I must say that

15 there was an opinion, for which I have no basis, namely, that he was one

16 of the major financiers of the Serbian Democratic Party. I have no proof

17 of that and I'm just relating this opinion. And Mr. Dukic was the first

18 president of the Executive Board of the SDS. He enjoyed great authority

19 in the SDS, and in 1991, in 1992, he was a prominent member. He later

20 changed his views after the war, but that doesn't matter now.

21 He was the highest political authority, the most prominent

22 politician in the municipality of Birac, and he was thought and said to be

23 a man who wielded great influence in the business circles of Belgrade.

24 Q. Now --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Deronjic, you just -- part of your answer was

Page 947

1 that there was an opinion about Mr. Dukic, one of the major financiers,

2 and you added to that that was an opinion and you had no basis for it and

3 no proof for it. That means that it's rumour. That is not of great

4 assistance for the Chamber, unless you could tell us through which

5 channels that rumour came to you, what would have been the source. I'm

6 not saying that you couldn't tell us about anything for which you had not

7 solid proof, but you added already here that, as a matter of fact, there

8 was no basis whatsoever for yourself to assess even the credibility of

9 these rumours, and that does not assist the Chamber. You were not

10 specifically asked for it, but I'd like you to keep that in mind while

11 giving your answers. Please proceed.

12 MR. HARMON: I see an error in the record as well, Your Honour. It

13 says -- strike that.

14 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Deronjic: At this meeting in April with

15 Rajko Dukic, Goran Zekic, and yourself, in Milici, in April, can you tell

16 us what was said and who said what?

17 A. I remember that meeting, and I remember that Mr. Dukic passed on

18 to us the information that it had been decided at a high level that Serbs

19 in Bosnia should arm themselves. When he said "at a high level," he did

20 not specify, but he added one sentence that I remember, namely, that

21 Mr. Karadzic personally convinced Mr. Milosevic that Serbs in Bosnia

22 should arm themselves. We discussed this, and to be completely precise, I

23 remember most clearly the instructions he gave to Mr. Zekic and myself

24 regarding distribution of arms. He said we were in charge of the

25 municipalities we were representing, and he gave a paper to Mr. Zekic

Page 948

1 which, as I later learnt, contained the name and the telephone numbers of

2 the man we were supposed to contact in Belgrade.

3 Q. Did Mr. Karadzic, in a conversation with you, later inform you

4 about his role in the arming of the Bosnian Serbs?

5 A. No. This has nothing to do with a conversation in which I would

6 have been informed. It is an utterance that I heard Mr. Karadzic made at

7 one of the meetings, where he repeated that he personally had convinced

8 Mr. Milosevic that Serbs should arm themselves.

9 Q. Now, after that meeting concluded in Milici, and Goran -- I'm

10 sorry. Did you and Goran Zekic return to your respective municipalities?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did Mr. Zekic tell you who was in charge of the entire arming

13 operation?

14 A. Yes. Mr. Zekic told me that.

15 Q. Who did he tell you was in charge of the arming operation?

16 A. I asked him what he knew about all that, on our way home. He said

17 he knew about the arming operation and that he knew Mr. Danilo

18 Veselinovic, who, as he put it, was the man number one in the arming of

19 Serbs. He also said that he, Goran Zekic, had talked to Mr. Veselinovic

20 about the arming of Serbs generally, and specifically in our area. He

21 also mentioned the names of some other people who were involved:

22 Mr. Tintor, and I can't recall the name of another man he mentioned now;

23 I'll remember it later. So that was the conversation I had with Mr. Zekic

24 on our way home.

25 Q. When you say Mr. Tintor, are you referring to Jovan Tintor?

Page 949

1 A. Yes. I mean Jovan Tintor, member of the Main Board at the time.

2 Q. Now, you mentioned Danilo Veselinovic. Was he also a member of

3 the Main Board at the time?

4 A. Yes, he also was a member of the Main Board.

5 Q. Now, you said that Mr. Dukic gave Mr. Zekic a piece of paper.

6 Shortly thereafter, did you and Mr. Zekic travel someplace, and can you

7 tell the Judges where you went in respect of the issue of arms?

8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm not quite sure whether where you

9 went is intended as a geographical question or as something more general,

10 but if it's intended to be geographical, then there isn't much point in

11 asking the witness: Did you and Mr. Zekic travel somewhere, and then:

12 Can you tell the Judges where you went? Because the second bit of that

13 question implies the answer to the first bit of the question. So they

14 really need to be broken down to wait to see whether the answer to the

15 first question is yes or no before the second question comes up at all.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if the answer to the first question would

17 be no, no answer would be given to the second question any more. I do

18 agree with you that these are two questions, but it's not inadmissible to

19 combine them, I would say. Because if the first question would be

20 answered by yes, then of course there's a -- I would say there's a natural

21 need to answer the second question in order to provide information. If

22 the answer to the first question would be no, then the Chamber would be

23 surprised if an answer to the second question would be given.

24 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, that would be logical, but the

25 point is the inherently leading nature of questions which are presented in

Page 950

1 that composite form.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber --

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, it's leading in some extent, because the

5 first question perhaps should have been: Did you ever meet Mr. Zekic at

6 that time? And only then ask him whether you went somewhere with

7 Mr. Zekic. But this is not leading to an extent that's not acceptable.

8 So the objection is denied.

9 Please proceed.


11 Q. Mr. Deronjic, you can answer the question.

12 A. I'm a little confused myself. The answer to the first question is

13 yes.

14 Q. Where did you go with Mr. Zekic?

15 A. Over the next few days, I went to Belgrade with Mr. Zekic, to see

16 Mr. Mihalj Kertes.

17 Q. Please tell the Judges about that trip.

18 A. One morning, Goran Zekic came to collect me and said that I should

19 get ready, that we were going to Belgrade. This was the late April. I

20 think that was the time. I got ready and we left for Belgrade. On the

21 way there, I said: "Where are we going?" And he didn't tell me right

22 away what it was all about. I could just assume, based on the meeting in

23 Milici, that this is what this was about.

24 We came to Belgrade. Mr. Zekic is a -- used to study in Belgrade.

25 He knows Belgrade very well. We came in front of the Serbian presidency

Page 951

1 building. That's where we parked the car. Goran Zekic announced us at

2 the entrance. He said that we were there to see Mr. Kertes. I described

3 where the building was, also the office, so I think there is no need for

4 such details here.

5 We went in. Mr. Kertes received us very quickly. We were brought

6 in by a secretary. Mr. Kertes was alone in the office. He received us.

7 We said that we had announced our visit earlier. Mr. Zekic did that, and

8 Mr. Kertes knew what the visit was about. We sat down in the office and

9 we began to discuss the topic for which we came.

10 Q. When you refer to Mr. Kertes, do you know his first name?

11 A. Yes. His name is Mihalj Kertes.

12 Q. Can you please relate the conversation that you had

13 with -- between you, Mr. Zekic, and Mr. Kertes.

14 A. To my best recollection, we discussed the following: Zekic said

15 that our visit was previously announced, and it was in connection with

16 what was agreed earlier. He said that very discreetly, without mentioning

17 weapons. Mr. Kertes said yes, that he knew about it, and then he

18 continued the conversation on this topic, that he was in charge of that

19 kind of business or those kinds of tasks, that he was carrying them out,

20 arming the Serbs. He also mentioned Croatia and Kosovo and he related to

21 us some details. One detail in connection with that job of his, he said

22 that we should report to Bubanj Potok, in reference to this, this is a

23 barracks or a warehouse, as far as I can recall, in Belgrade.

24 Then we moved to a different topic, which was just an incidental

25 topic. I don't remember exactly who asked Mr. Kertes what the political

Page 952

1 plans were of Serbia in connection with the region that we were in. I'm

2 speaking about Podrinje.

3 And then he said the sentence that I tried to quote as correctly

4 as possible, that it was the position of Serbian politics that the left

5 bank of the Drina would be exclusively Serb. He mentioned about 50

6 kilometres depth of territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That's how I

7 understood that remark of his.

8 Q. Mr. Deronjic, Mr. Kertes said that he was in charge of the

9 provision of arms. I'd like to play an intercept for you. This

10 intercept, Your Honours, is dated the 24th of June, 1991.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I remembered from intercepts played

12 during the opening statement that it was almost impossible to follow the

13 text in writing on the screen, so I do not know --

14 MR. HARMON: I understand that, Your Honour, and I have prepared a

15 translation in English and in B/C/S of the intercept. So it was hard for

16 me as well to follow. It goes far too fast.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.

18 MR. HARMON: Just one minute. The technology is catching up with

19 us again. If the registrar could mark the intercept itself, or give us a

20 number for the intercept. I don't know what you need to mark, but I have

21 something -- do you need this? I'll provide this to you shortly. If you

22 could just give me the next number on that, and then give us numbers for

23 the transcripts as well.

24 THE REGISTRAR: The next number will be Prosecution number P46,

25 for the intercept; and the transcripts will be P46A and P46A.1 for the

Page 953

1 translation.

2 MR. HARMON: Perhaps, Your Honour, the copies aren't here. Could

3 I put -- have the English version placed on the ELMO, and I will -- we can

4 pause during the playing of this intercept.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

6 MR. HARMON: Perhaps, Your Honour, I think what we could do is we

7 could play the intercept in its entirety through once. It's a short

8 intercept. Mr. Deronjic could listen to it and then I could put the pages

9 of the material, the translation on the ELMO thereafter.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's proceed that way.

11 MR. HARMON: So if we could just play the intercept in its

12 entirety and then we'll proceed.

13 [Intercept played]


15 Q. Mr. Deronjic, do you recognise one or both of those speakers by

16 voice?

17 A. I recognise the voice of Mr. Karadzic. I'm not sure about

18 Mr. Kertes. I'm not sure that it's his voice. I only had the opportunity

19 once to see him and hear him.

20 Q. Mr. Deronjic, if we could -- let me ask you this, Mr. Deronjic.

21 What does this -- in your opinion, what does this conversation deal with?

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the question really should be to his

23 knowledge, not to his opinion. We've had quite a lot of questions this

24 morning which are introduced with the phrase "in your view" and "in your

25 opinion." That should, we suggest, be avoided if at all possible because

Page 954

1 it does have a tendency to steer the witness away from the proper ambit of

2 his evidence.

3 MR. HARMON: May I respond, Your Honour.


5 MR. HARMON: This witness has listened to this.

6 Q. Have you listened to this intercept before coming into Court

7 today?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Having listened to this intercept, Mr. Deronjic, did you form an

10 opinion as to what the content of this conversation related to?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. May I then ask if my learned friend thinks that's the appropriate

13 way to ask the question, may I now seek the answer to that question?

14 MR. STEWART: No, as a matter of fact, I don't think that would be

15 the appropriate way because that has exactly the same vice and exactly the

16 same objection as the original question. The point isn't whether

17 Mr. Deronjic has formed an opinion; after all, if he hasn't formed an

18 opinion, he's presumably going to answer the question, if he answers it

19 honestly, by saying to Mr. Harmon, "Well, I haven't got an opinion," and

20 we move on to the next question. The vice in the question is he's being

21 asked for an opinion at all, as opposed to what he knows.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it's not always possible, Mr. Stewart, to

23 distinguish exactly facts and opinion. If you would ask a witness whether

24 a car was driving fast, that is, of course, opinion and fact mixed

25 together.

Page 955

1 Mr. Deronjic, Mr. Harmon would like to know what this

2 conversation, in view of you, was about. Because it always needs some

3 interpretation. So therefore, you may answer that question.

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I make a suggestion, that in fact

5 rather than preface the question with any reference to opinions or views,

6 the simple question, what was the conversation about, with Your Honour's

7 clear indication to the witness as to what primarily the Tribunal is

8 looking for, would be preferable. It's the unnecessary introduction of

9 the phrase "in your view" or "in your opinion." And we've had this more

10 than once this morning. It's that unnecessary introduction of the phrase

11 which is bound to have a tendency to steer the witness in the wrong

12 direction towards opinion, as opposed to factual knowledge.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever questions can be put without this addition,

14 Mr. Harmon, I think it would be appropriate to do so; on the other hand,

15 it's not such an issue, because if it's really just facts that you could

16 hear, that is, what is the third word spoken or what's the second part of

17 the conversation, of course, if it's just facts, then of course the

18 Chamber could, just by reading it, establish those same facts. For

19 example, a telephone conversation would be about a football match, then we

20 really do not need a witness to explain to us that the conversation is

21 about a football match. So to that extent, facts that clearly come out

22 from the conversation itself can be established by the Chamber. But if,

23 on the basis of specific knowledge of a witness, he could add something to

24 the meaning of that, I think he could explain that or ask the attention on

25 certain aspects which the Chamber otherwise might not understand that

Page 956

1 well. That's, of course, the basis of his personal knowledge.

2 Let's proceed.


4 Q. Mr. Deronjic, what is this conversation about?

5 A. Your Honour, I will just add one sentence. In the introduction.

6 This conversation explicitly discusses the topic of furniture. It refers

7 to 50 pieces of furniture a day. Then the logical question is asked:

8 What is this? Is this furniture, or what is it? I would like to say that

9 in my opinion, and according to the information that I have from that

10 period, this is a conversation discussing the arms for Serbs, and that the

11 expression, the term "furniture" is used to conceal the true intent to arm

12 the people.

13 Since I personally know that Mr. Kertes was involved in this

14 business, this is a conclusion that I believe is justified, that what is

15 being discussed here is the arming of Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

16 people who are helping in this endeavour, and people who are in a way

17 posing obstacles in this endeavour. This is my opinion, which allow may be

18 incorrect. Q. The intercept -- and if I could have the second page of the

19 English version placed on the screen, on the ELMO. I'm sorry. The third

20 page. If I can have the third page placed on the ELMO.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps in order -- I don't know what further

22 questions you're going to put to the witness, Mr. Harmon, but I'd like to

23 intervene with two questions.

24 The first question, Mr. Deronjic, is: You explained more or less

25 to us that "furniture" is a code word, at least doesn't mean furniture but

Page 957

1 means something else. Are you aware of any other occasion where the word

2 "furniture" was used to refer to arms?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I'm not aware of

4 such a case.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Second question: Could you relate by your

6 conversation with Mr. Kertes whether he professionally had anything to do

7 with furniture?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't tell us anything, but I

9 know that professionally he has nothing to do with furniture.

10 JUDGE ORIE: From what you know what his profession was, you

11 cannot relate that in any way to furniture?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The answer is yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


15 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to one line in this

16 conversation, and I'd like you to comment on it. This is attributed to

17 Mihalj Kertes.

18 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, it is on the screen in front of you.

19 It says, in response to Mr. Karadzic. Mr. Karadzic asked: "Does Slobo

20 demand that he should decide about every business?" And Mr. Kertes

21 answers: "No. Slobo has given Jovica and me carte blanche, but then he's

22 Jovica's boss and he's driving Jovica crazy."

23 Q. Can you comment on that line.

24 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon. It is my assumption that the person being

25 referred to here is Mr. Jovica Stanisic. If necessary, I can explain why

Page 958

1 I make this assumption.

2 Q. And Slobo, who does that refer to?

3 A. Undoubtedly, it refers to Mr. Slobodan Milosevic.

4 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions in respect of this

5 intercept.

6 Let me go back to the conversation that you had with Mr. Kertes

7 and Mr. Zekic in his office. Did he at some point in that conversation

8 ask you if you wanted to pay a visit on Mr. Milosevic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what was your answer?

11 A. We did not wish to meet with Mr. Milosevic at that time, and we

12 didn't know whether that was even possible.

13 Q. Now, you also mentioned the conversation -- a statement that

14 Mr. Kertes said about the left bank, and approximately 50 kilometres of

15 the left bank being exclusively Serb.

16 MR. HARMON: Can I have the next exhibit, please, marked for

17 identification and shown to the witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Given an exhibit number or marked for identification?

19 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry. Given an exhibit number.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P47.

22 MR. HARMON: And could the B/C/S version be shown?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 MR. HARMON: Could the B/C/S version be presented to the witness.

25 Okay.

Page 959

1 Q. Mr. Deronjic, this exhibit -- are you familiar with this exhibit?

2 Can you tell the Judges what this exhibit is.

3 A. Yes, I'm familiar with this exhibit. It is a decision published

4 in the Official Gazette of Republika Srpska. I think the date it was

5 published is the 12th of May. I'm not sure of that, but it's definitely

6 from the month of May. The actual decision is actually entitled:

7 "Decision on strategic objectives of the Serbian people in Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina."

9 Q. And is there a name that is -- appears at the bottom of that

10 particular decision?

11 A. Yes. It's an assembly decision. Below it is the name of

12 Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.

13 Q. And I'd like to focus your attention on strategic objective number

14 3?

15 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wonder if we could comment. Because

16 although very strictly speaking it's a question which could wait until

17 cross-examination, the simple fact is that this document says at the top

18 that it's the Official Gazette of the Republika Srpska for Friday, the

19 26th of November, 1993. So when the witness says it's the decision

20 published in the Official Gazette, and I think the date it was published

21 is the 12th of May, it might just be helpful if the witness's attention

22 could be directed to the contents of the document itself to see whether he

23 is, in fact, happy with that answer.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But could then perhaps also the attention of

25 the witness be drawn to where the date of the 12th of May of 1992 appears

Page 960

1 in the document, so that he has a better reference.

2 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour. That's part of the same

3 exercise.


5 MR. HARMON: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: On the other hand -- let me just first precisely

7 check.

8 Yes. Mr. Deronjic, you said it was published on the 12th of May.

9 It says that -- I have some difficulties in reading, as a matter of fact,

10 the publication exactly.

11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I can clarify this with the witness, if

12 you wish.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.


15 Q. Mr. Deronjic, in the lower left-hand corner of the decision

16 itself, it has the date 12 May 1992.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And on the upper right-hand corner, near the words "Official

19 Gazette of the Republika Srpska," it has 26 November 1993. Can you tell

20 us what those dates represent, please.

21 A. I believe that the decision was adopted on the 12th of May, 1992

22 and that it was published in the Official Gazette in November 1993. I

23 made a mistake, and I mixed up those two dates.

24 Q. Thank you. In any event, we can proceed, Mr. Deronjic. I'd like

25 to focus your attention on strategic objective number 3, which is, and I

Page 961

1 quote: "Establish a corridor in the Drina River Valley, that is,

2 eliminate the Drina as a border separating Serbian states."

3 And I would like you to comment on the statement made by

4 Mr. Kertes in April of 1991 and this particular strategic objective which

5 was promulgated on the 12th of May, 1992. Could you proceed, please.

6 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon. I think that these things are connected, that

7 Mr. Kertes's statement, perhaps not in this form, refers to the strategic

8 decision of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I would

9 just like to add that I am familiar with one meeting devoted to this topic

10 from the summer of 1991. This was a meeting in Bajina Basta, which is in

11 Serbia, and it's a municipality bordering on the Srebrenica and Bratunac

12 municipality. This was organised by intellectuals from Podrinje and from

13 Belgrade. The meeting was entitled: "Drina, the backbone of the Serbian

14 people." And I think that this topic, Drina, as not a border between

15 Serbs, was something that was written about in the media in 1990 and 1991,

16 and this is something that, in my opinion, is connected.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Deronjic, after leaving Mr. Kertes's office, where did

18 you go?

19 A. Goran Zekic and I went to Bubanj Potok, and there we were met by

20 an officer whose name I don't know, because I didn't ask. Mr. Zekic made his

21 acquaintance and went to the office, and I went inside those depots - those

22 are indeed very large depots, storing arms of the Yugoslav People's Army -

23 accompanied by a couple of soldiers. Mr. Zekic and the officer returned

24 shortly, and Mr. Zekic and I reviewed for a while the arsenals in the

25 depot. And Mr. Zekic told me that he had agreed a delivery for Bratunac

Page 962

1 and Srebrenica and that we could go home.

2 On the way home, we talked a little about how to organise that

3 first scheduled transport of arms for Bratunac and Srebrenica.

4 Q. What did you discuss?

5 A. We talked about how to get those arms into Bosnia and Herzegovina,

6 specifically to Bratunac and Srebrenica, but I, at least, didn't know how

7 safe it was to drive those weapons through Serbia. So I asked Zekic what

8 he knew about that aspect. He said that he would make arrangements for

9 one truck to arrive in the neighbouring municipality of Ljubovija, whereas

10 I was supposed to prepare a group of people from Bratunac to help us get

11 those arms from Ljubovija into Bratunac and Srebrenica, a group of men

12 whom I trusted implicitly.

13 Q. Can you give us some additional details about the specific

14 arrangements as to who you trusted and what arrangements were made to

15 store the arms in Bosnia itself.

16 A. Yes. I selected three men. Goran Zekic suggested some of them

17 who were his friends. It so happened that some of them were presidents of

18 the local boards in Bratunac. Mr. Slavko Jovanovic, Milan Sundjin, and

19 Raso Milosevic, men from three different areas. It was agreed that

20 Goran Zekic would let me know when the arms are arriving and that we

21 should transport the weaponry to our localities and put them in safe

22 storage and provide guards. That's what happened. The weapons arrived,

23 and just by way of illustration, I said that the arms arrived when it was

24 the finals of the football cup, and the Red Star football club became the

25 champion of Europe. That's how I remember the date. That was the night

Page 963

1 when we got the arms across the Drina River.

2 Goran Zekic went home to transport the arms further towards

3 Srebrenica and put them in agreed depots, depots designated for people in

4 the field. It was agreed that this should not be disclosed even to the

5 closest associates, that we should keep it as secret as possible.

6 Q. And were these depots where the weapons were stored in

7 Serbian-occupied areas?

8 A. I'm sorry. What I heard in my earphones was Serbian occupation.

9 Q. No. Let me rephrase the question. Mr. Deronjic, where were these

10 weapons stored in Bosnia?

11 A. Arms depots in Bosnia were located in those Serb areas, that is,

12 areas populated solely by Serbs. One was in Fakovici, near Drina River,

13 another in Osansko, downstream, and the third --

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter, they didn't hear the name of

15 the third one.


17 Q. Could you repeat the name? The interpreters didn't hear it.

18 A. The third one was Kravica, a region populated solely by Serbs,

19 located in Bratunac.

20 Q. And once those weapons were put in storage, what happened to those

21 weapons?

22 A. Nothing happened. This transport was effected in secret. But in

23 the next period, in the summer, as far as I remember, there were already

24 rumours about the arming operation in Bratunac. The secret was out, and

25 pressure was brought to bear by some people who thought that they didn't

Page 964

1 receive arms, whereas some others did. So I issued orders to distribute

2 those weapons to people who could be trusted to keep it secret. That was

3 necessary, I thought, because there was a danger the police might find out

4 about it and seize the weapons.

5 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask one question?

6 I'm not that well aware of when what kind of championships, there

7 are so many these days, are held, but could you give us a clear indication

8 on how much time it took before the weapons were delivered, after your

9 trip to Belgrade.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I don't know the

11 exact date. It was the beginning of May. May 1991.

12 JUDGE ORIE: May 1991. And your visit to Belgrade was in, from

13 what I remember, early April of 1991; is that -- or just April? I have to

14 check that.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So a couple of weeks.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even less, one could say.


19 Yes, please proceed.


21 Q. Mr. Deronjic, in addition to this particular arms shipment that

22 arrived at the beginning of May, did additional arms come to Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina? Were there additional deliveries?

24 A. Yes, there were other shipments. The process of arming Serbs in

25 Bratunac continued and lasted up to the end of 1991. I indicated in my

Page 965

1 interview the sources from which I knew the weapons were shipped, and I

2 also indicated those about which I had firsthand knowledge, although I was

3 no longer directly involved. But I did attend a meeting together with

4 Goran Zekic in the beginning of summer, in a place called Bajina Basta, a

5 meeting with the president of the Executive Council of Bajina Basta, who

6 told us that he was in charge for delivering arms to Srebrenica and

7 Visegrad. Goran Zekic took me there to see if we in Bratunac could get

8 some weapons from the Uzice Corps, and in a way, he managed to secure

9 that. I had no longer any ties with Uzice after that, but Goran Zekic did

10 manage to get a certain amount of weaponry over to Srebrenica.

11 I indicated that we had another arms shipment from another source,

12 and that is the JNA in Tuzla, where a garrison command was located. I

13 have never been to Tuzla, but I heard from other people that Goran Zekic

14 went there with Petar Jankovic, president of the municipal board of

15 Kalesija, and they visited a general whose last name was also Kalesija [as

16 interpreted]. With him, they agreed on arms shipment that were effected

17 to Srebrenica.

18 As far as I know, a part of it was left in Srebrenica.

19 I know of another case of an arms delivery. It concerns an

20 activity of the Territorial Defence, I believe, in August 1991.

21 Q. Let me interrupt you and just ask you: The record reads: " --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The name of the

23 general was Jankovic. He was the namesake of another Jankovic,

24 Petar Jankovic.

25 MR. HARMON: And I'm referring, Your Honour, to the sentence that

Page 966

1 is at 12:13:54 -- it's page 63, and it is line 7, where the correction

2 needs to be made.

3 Q. So, Mr. Deronjic, just to correct this record: You testified:

4 "But I heard from other people that Goran Zekic went there and they

5 visited a general whose last name was Kalesija." Is that spoken in error?

6 A. That's an interpreter's error. I said that Goran Zekic and

7 Mr. Jankovic, president of the municipal board from Kalesija, called on

8 General Jankovic.

9 Q. And did you tell us who Petar Jankovic was?

10 A. No. I said Jankovic meaning Petar Jankovic, president of the SDS

11 municipal board for Kalesija.

12 Q. And did you know Petar Jankovic?

13 A. Yes, I knew him well.

14 Q. Mr. Deronjic, before I interrupted you, you were about to tell us

15 another source by which the Bosnian Serbs acquired weapons. Could you

16 continue with what you were going to say.

17 A. I said I know about one activity of the TO of Bratunac in the

18 summer of 1991. How do I know about it? It was a coincidence. My

19 brother-in-law, that is, the husband of my sister, was a professional

20 instructor in the Territorial Defence for the areas of Bratunac and

21 Srebrenica. I heard that he was holding drills involving some young men

22 in the surroundings of Fakovici and I went together with a representative

23 for that area for the SDS, where I found my brother-in-law and a large

24 group of young men who were carrying out drills and training, to learn to

25 handle weapons. I asked for an explanation, and my brother-in-law said it

Page 967

1 was on the orders of Mr. Sobot. The name is all I remember. And that was

2 somebody from the staff of the Territorial Defence from Tuzla who was in

3 charge of Bratunac and Srebrenica localities.

4 This training was being carried out in that location, in that

5 training centre. The place was called Ruljevici. It was also carried out

6 in Kravica, in Banjevici, in a school building, in Podravanje, or Ravanje.

7 All these are Serbian settlements.

8 We discussed this because only Serbs were involved in the

9 training. My brother-in-law explained that it was a good way for Serbs to

10 arms themselves in that period, because it was well known that Muslims

11 rejected involvement in all military activities, including those of the

12 TO, whereas this exercise was part of the regular activities of the TO.

13 In practice, however, it was exclusively training for Serbs.

14 Another curious detail is that the arms delivered for the training

15 of these people was left to them as their personal weapons.

16 Q. Mr. Deronjic, when did the -- to your knowledge, when did the last

17 shipment of arms arrive in the Bratunac municipality, and where did it

18 arrive?

19 A. The last delivery that I know of was to Kravica, when unrest broke

20 out in Bratunac municipality as the result of the murder, the killing of

21 two extremists in that time. I don't know how well these events are

22 known, and if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them. And

23 these weapons arrived from Serbia, across the Drina River, and were

24 transported to that region by night, because the climate in the Bratunac

25 municipality was already tainted by war and the town was full of

Page 968

1 barricades as a result of the killing of those people.

2 Q. I only wanted to ask you two small details. You mentioned the

3 killing of two extremists. Were those people Bosnian Muslims?

4 A. Yes, that's true.

5 Q. And was --

6 A. They were Bosnian Muslims.

7 Q. Is the town of Kravica adjacent to the town of Glogova?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I see it's 12.20. I don't know if

10 this is the appropriate time to break, but ...

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, this is approximately the time I had in mind.

12 Could I ask the parties to review their agendas and to see whether, on the

13 17th of February, that is, next Tuesday, they would be willing to sit in

14 the morning. In general, morning sessions are preferred by the parties to

15 afternoon sessions, and there might be a possibility that we could sit in

16 the morning. But of course I would not --

17 MR. HARMON: I can give you my answer immediately, Your Honour. I

18 prefer morning sessions and we would be --

19 JUDGE ORIE: You would be available in the morning.

20 MR. HARMON: Yes.

21 MR. STEWART: Our immediate answer, Your Honour, may we take a

22 moment is in general we prefer morning sessions but that may not apply to

23 that particular day.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If you say it's not possible, then we have to --

25 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I'm not saying at this moment

Page 969

1 it's not possible. I'm just asking that we might think about it over the

2 break at least.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. I hear then from you after the break.

4 Yes.

5 MR. STEWART: But I could say, Your Honour, that in general, the

6 Defence's preference is for morning sessions.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that's a generally felt preference, for

8 morning activities, rather than late-evening activities. We'll adjourn

9 until 20 minutes to 1.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: May I inquire about the 17th of April. That's --

13 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. The Defence position is this:

14 We -- it is quite a tall order. It is quite demanding --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, let me be quite clear. If you say, for

16 whatever reasons, because your son has his birthday or whatever, that it

17 wouldn't suit you, I'm not going to change the programme on such short

18 notice. That's it. So yes or no will do, and we'll -- Judges can change,

19 Mr. Harmon can change to the morning. But if you have good reasons,

20 that's enough.

21 MR. STEWART: I understand, and I'm very much appreciate what

22 Your Honour is saying, effectively saying if we say no, we say no.


24 MR. STEWART: In fact I was going to make another practical

25 suggestion which may then help everybody, which is this, and it just

Page 970

1 starts from the simple position that it is very demanding for us to be

2 ready to cross-examine Mr. Deronjic. There's no secret about that.


4 MR. STEWART: But, Your Honour, if we -- if the Tribunal were to

5 sit on Tuesday morning, but then we understand that one of the witnesses,

6 Mr. Hasanovic, was not previously available, so he couldn't be brought in

7 the contemplated order, but we understood I think from Mr. Hannis, but one

8 of the Prosecution team, anyway, that Mr. Hasanovic could be available on

9 the 18th, next Wednesday.


11 MR. STEWART: I see Mr. Harmon is standing up. I don't know if

12 he's going to correct a fact at this point.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.

14 MR. HARMON: Well, I don't want you to continue being misled.

15 During the recess I just checked to see if this witness is available, has

16 finally secured the necessary travel papers from the United States. I

17 understand that he still has not done that, and therefore, Mr. Hasanovic

18 may not be the next witness. The next witness may be Mr. Treanor.

19 MR. STEWART: It's very easy then. With a great sort of respect,

20 then, as far as Tuesday morning is concerned, Your Honour, the answer is a

21 simple no, with respect.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll respect that. I mean, we -- it's -- the

23 Chamber understands that such a decision by everyone prefers the morning

24 session is not taken without some pain.

25 Yes, please proceed.

Page 971

1 MR. HARMON: May I inquire, Mr. President, what time we will

2 conclude today's session.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll continue until 45 minutes past 1.00, that's a

4 quarter to 2.00. Yes.

5 MR. HARMON: Yes. Thank you.

6 Could I have the next exhibit, please, given a number for exhibit.

7 And could Mr. Deronjic be provided with the B/C/S version of that exhibit.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P48.


10 Q. Mr. Deronjic, in front of you is Prosecutor's Exhibit 48. I would

11 ask you: Have you seen this exhibit before?

12 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon. I've seen it recently.

13 Q. And when was the first time that you saw this exhibit?

14 A. Three or four days ago, when I met with you and when you showed me

15 this document.

16 Q. Mr. Deronjic, prior to seeing this exhibit, you had provided the

17 Office of the Prosecutor with a substantial amount of information in

18 respect of the arming of the Bosnian Serbs in Bosnia; is that correct?

19 A. Yes. I supplied the information that I had.

20 Q. Now, if you would inspect the first page of this exhibit, in the

21 upper left-hand corner there is a name, the name of Petar Jankovic, with

22 an address of Dubnica, and a telephone number. Do you know this

23 individual?

24 A. Yes. It's Petar Jankovic, president of the SDS municipal board of

25 Dubnica.

Page 972

1 Q. And --

2 A. Sorry. Kalesija. Dubnica is a Serb-populated area in the

3 municipality of Kalesija.

4 MR. HARMON: Could I have on the screen -- I'm sorry. Could I

5 have Prosecutor's Exhibit --

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 MR. HARMON: Again, rather than wait for tech -- just to orient

8 Your Honours as to where Kalesija is, Your Honours can see from

9 Prosecutor's Exhibit 35 the words "Bosnia and Herzegovina." Next to the

10 end of Bosnia there's Sekovici, and if you go directly above that, you

11 will see the municipality of Kalesija. This is just to orient

12 Your Honours as to where Mr. Jankovic is from.

13 Now if we could return to the exhibit that we were discussing,

14 P48.

15 Q. Mr. Deronjic, did you have an opportunity to read through this

16 particular exhibit?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Based on its contents and based on the name that appears on the

19 front of this, who do you believe to be the author of this particular

20 exhibit?

21 A. The author of this text is Petar Jankovic. That's his diary from

22 that period.

23 Q. All right. Now, after -- and just in general terms, after

24 reviewing this particular diary, did you come to any conclusions,

25 additional conclusions, in respect of the arming of the Bosnian Serbs in

Page 973

1 Eastern Bosnia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in general terms, because I'm going to direct you to specific

4 parts of this diary, in general terms, what conclusions did you reach?

5 A. I reached the conclusion that Petar Jankovic had been involved in

6 the arming of the Serbs and that he carried out this arming in his own

7 municipality and in neighbouring municipalities, mainly Lopari, the

8 neighbouring municipality. And then there are other names of

9 municipalities well known from that time. I wish to say that my thinking

10 about this arming operation, and my conclusion, is that Mr. Petar Jankovic

11 was not - and this is corroborated by this diary - a part of the group of

12 people who were in charge of the arming operation. Instead, he

13 established his own private connections for the purpose of arming Serbs in

14 this region. This is attested by several segments of that diary.

15 Q. Well, I would like to orient you through this diary, and I'm going

16 to refer you to specific portions of it, Mr. Deronjic, and if you could

17 refer to page 142 of the version in front of you. It bears the ERN number

18 00185071.

19 A. Yes, I have it in front of me.

20 Q. Could you read that? Mr. Deronjic, could you please read the

21 entry that starts on the 29th of July, 1991. Do you see that portion of

22 the diary entry in front of you?

23 A. Yes. On this page of the diary, dated the 29th of July, 1991, it

24 says that Petar Jankovic called up Mr. Kerovic and that is Dr. Kerovic,

25 from Lopari municipality. I believe he was a member of the Main Board of

Page 974

1 the SDS, telling him that they should go, as agreed, to Belgrade, to see

2 Jovica. It says in brackets here "chief of state security." In my

3 opinion, this is a reference to Jovica Stanisic, chief of Serbia's state

4 security.

5 At 12.00, they came to the office of Jovica Stanisic. I suppose

6 that's him. And Jovica informs them of a fax sent by Jankovic, if I

7 understand correctly, saying that 3.600 pieces of weapons were approved.

8 The word used here is not "weapons," but I think that's meant. And also,

9 a way of transportation is agreed. This is how I read this first page.

10 Q. This is -- the entry on this is July 29th, 1991; is that correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Okay. Let me refer you now to another segment --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please remain for one second.

14 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The English text reads that he says that the weaponry

16 has been approved, but less than 3.600, which we asked for.

17 Your testimony with this text in front of you was that the 3.600

18 weapons were agreed, if I am not mistaken, were approved. I have some

19 difficulties in reconciling your testimony and the text you have in front

20 of you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the term -- I didn't

22 see it. I missed it. I'm just saying -- I'm trying to get used to the

23 handwriting, even though I've read it before. But correctly, it says

24 weapons were approved. That's what it says, in my text also. I

25 apologise.

Page 975

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, there's also some indication of the

2 relative use of asking a witness to read a certain part, and if he

3 misreads it, then we've just got the text as he sees it in front of him.

4 I mean, I'm not going to stop you at this moment, but just be aware of

5 that risk.

6 MR. HARMON: What I intend to do, Your Honour, is I intend to show

7 him certain portions of this, have him read it to himself, have him

8 comment on it and maybe take him to specific parts of it for his insights

9 into it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


12 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I'd like to have you turn, please, to page 166 of

13 the document in front of you.

14 A. Excuse me. I cannot see the page numbers on the document. Oh,

15 okay.

16 Q. I will --

17 A. Yes, I have found it. I'm sorry. 160 and -- I'm sorry.

18 Q. 166, Mr. Deronjic.

19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, excuse me. We seem to be running into

20 some practical difficulty here. I don't know whether it's us, but we have

21 this document as supplied on a CD to us, and it only runs to 48 pages. I

22 don't know what the explanation is, but --

23 MR. HARMON: I'll be glad to give the explanation. Mr. Deronjic

24 has in front of him a handwritten copy of the diary, and I'm referring to

25 the numbers that are on the pages of the B/C/S original version in front

Page 976

1 of him.


3 MR. HARMON: I'm referring as well, Your Honour, to a date that is

4 referenced in each of these entries, because each entry has a date. I

5 have an English translation of this diary. Mr. Stewart can check.

6 Hopefully it will correspond to what he has on his disk. The page I'm

7 referring to is page 40.

8 MR. STEWART: Well, that's extremely helpful, Your Honour,

9 because, after all, this is not supposed to be an IQ test. If I'm given

10 page 40, then I can find it, but I can't work from the B/C/S, because I

11 don't speak the language.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That has been clarified. Please proceed.

13 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

14 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much.

15 Q. Mr. Deronjic, the entry --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


18 Q. Mr. Deronjic, the entry that I'm asking you to read is on page

19 166. If you go back to -- quickly to page 164, you'll see the date of

20 that entry is September 6th, 1991.

21 A. Yes. This page is actually at the beginning of this text, and I

22 see that it is the 6th of September, 1991.

23 Q. Now, have you had a chance to read that diary entry?

24 A. Some words I cannot decipher, but I have read the majority of the

25 text.

Page 977

1 Q. Mr. Deronjic, can you provide the Judges with some insight as to

2 this particular page of the diary?

3 A. I can just say that I recognise some names. Mr. Jovica is

4 mentioned. I assume that it refers to the same person, Jovica Stanisic.

5 Mr. Kerovic is mentioned; I've already said who he is. Then there are

6 papers mentioned, and some misunderstanding between Kerovic and Jankovic.

7 I don't know exactly what this is about. It says here: It seems that"

8 and then I cannot see this word, "to call the DB chief," this word behind,

9 after, just after -- yes. I don't know what it says. Somebody is

10 supposed to call the chief. "Kerovic says that he gave to Stanko

11 Cvijan" - that man is completely unknown to me - "Radmilo looked at the

12 papers." And that person from the other texts, from the other diary pages,

13 I think, is, in my opinion, Mr. Radmilo Bogdanovic, who at that time was

14 the minister of internal affairs in Serbia. But I'm not sure.

15 Q. Okay. There's a reference -- I'll quote a portion of this entry

16 to you. It is at the end it says: "Before we left, Jovica said:

17 'Smallest number of people should be involved in this.' I say: 'No

18 problems.'"

19 What are your observations on that particular passage?

20 A. Just allow me to find it. Is that at the end of this page? Are

21 we still talking about 166 or is that at the end of the entire text?

22 Q. It's not at the end of the entire text, but it's toward the end of

23 the text. There is a telephone number that Jovica gives at the telephone

24 number and it's the entries shortly above that.

25 A. Yes. 011685.

Page 978

1 Q. Now, I referred you, Mr. Deronjic, to the passage that says: "The

2 smallest number of people should be involved." --

3 A. Yes. I found it.

4 Q. Any comments?

5 A. These are conversations between the person providing the weapons

6 to Petar Jankovic and is asking him that the fewest number of people is

7 involved in this matter.

8 Q. All right. Now let me direct you, Mr. Deronjic, to the next

9 passage in this diary, that is found on page 171.

10 MR. HARMON: And Mr. Stewart, it's on page 41 of the translation.

11 Q. And I'm referring, Mr. Deronjic, to the entries for September the

12 8th, 1991, and September the 9th, 1991. Would you read the passage for

13 September the 8th, 1991, and the first three lines of the entry for

14 September the 9th, 1991.

15 A. In the first sentences, Petar Jankovic is supposed to go to bring

16 some people who arrived in Borovo Selo -- from Borovo Selo. Borovo Selo

17 is in Croatia. So based on that, I conclude that this was about people

18 who went to Borovo Selo, where at the time there was fighting --

19 Q. Let me interrupt you there. If you'd comment, please,

20 Mr. Deronjic, if you've finished reading the passages I've directed you

21 to, I'm interested in the passage that starts at the end of a number 1, 2,

22 3, it starts with: "Meeting at Vukosavci at 2000 hours" and that is found

23 in the entry of September 8th, 1991. It's on page 171 of your text.

24 A. Yes, I read that. 2000 hours, is meeting was held. I assume that

25 this was in this village or this hamlet.

Page 979

1 Q. Without reading back to us what you see in front of you,

2 Mr. Deronjic, I'd like you to read it, and then I will ask you to provide

3 your comments to the Judges about what you've read, and I may ask you some

4 specific questions about what's found in the text. So have you had a

5 chance to read the passages to which I've directed you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you have any comments about these passages?

8 A. The implementation of some agreements regarding the arming of

9 Serbs in that area, I'm not familiar with the names of these settlements.

10 The agreement being made is about the distribution of the weapons. So I

11 assume that this is about the implementation in the field of the

12 arrangements made in Belgrade.

13 Q. Let me direct you, Mr. Deronjic, to page 175 in the text before

14 you. And I would like you to read over to and through the next page,

15 176 --

16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, if I don't have either a date or a

17 text, I'm hopelessly --

18 MR. HARMON: I haven't finished, Mr. Stewart.

19 MR. STEWART: Okay. Thank you.

20 MR. HARMON: Kindly wait.

21 Q. This is found on page 42 of the English translation. The date of

22 this is January 24th, 1992. And Mr. Deronjic, I would like you to read

23 through the portion that says: "He promised to help to get weapons and we

24 are working on that." When you've read through that text, let me know.

25 A. I've read it. I've read up to that part.

Page 980

1 Q. All right. And what are your observations as to this portion of

2 Mr. Jankovic's diary?

3 A. Mr. Jankovic notes in the diary that his activity is directed at

4 General Jankovic. I mentioned that name. That was the commander of the

5 Tuzla Corps, as far as I know. And he also met another man. His name is

6 given here, but I don't know that man. I'd never heard of him. It says

7 that he categorised him as a good Serb, and he says that he promised to

8 help him about the weapons. This is obviously a military officer, and

9 they are still working on that.

10 Q. Let me direct --

11 A. -- task.

12 Q. -- you further on that same date to the -- toward the end of

13 that.

14 MR. HARMON: Mr. Stewart, it is found on page 43, the section I'm

15 going to refer to.

16 Q. Mr. Deronjic, if I can direct you to the portion that starts:

17 "After the meeting in Zelina, Nikola called at 2300 to tell me I should

18 call him at 0700." If you would read that. I can ... It starts at page

19 180, I believe, Mr. Deronjic, on your version.

20 A. Yes. At 2300, Nikola called.

21 Q. If you'd read that passage to the end.

22 JUDGE ORIE: May I make a practical suggestion, Mr. Harmon? We

23 have at the front page, on the left part of the page, and this keeps from

24 us from zooming out, and my eyes are becoming worse and worse.

25 MR. HARMON: We will assist, Your Honour.

Page 981

1 JUDGE ORIE: I caused even a worse situation. Yes. That's what I

2 like.


4 Q. Mr. Deronjic, can you provide the Court with your insights as to

5 what this is about.

6 A. I don't know who Mr. Nikola is. This pertains to weapons for

7 Petar Jankovic. The gentleman is introducing him to some military

8 officer. I don't know that person either - and informs him when the

9 weapons should arrive at Dubnica. That is the gist of this text. I don't

10 know this other gentleman either, the one called Momcilo.

11 Q. Let me refer, Mr. Deronjic, to page 184 of the version in front of

12 you.

13 MR. HARMON: And Mr. Stewart, it starts at page 43 of the version

14 that you have. And this is a diary entry date of January the 25th, 1992.

15 Q. And Mr. Deronjic, I would like to direct your attention to that

16 part of the entry that starts with: "Meeting in Borogovo at 1600 hours."

17 Do you see that portion of the text, Mr. Deronjic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I would like you to read to the end of the text, until it

20 reads: "Everyone was pleased."

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Have you read it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Your comments, please.

25 A. I don't know what Borogovo is. It's probably a village.

Page 982

1 Petar Jankovic is explaining to the people that -- he's explaining the

2 agreement with the army, and every is satisfied or pleased with this

3 agreement with the army. But I don't know what the actual agreement

4 refers to.

5 Q. Okay. Let me direct your attention now, Mr. Deronjic, to an entry

6 that is found on page 197 of your text.

7 MR. HARMON: Mr. Stewart, it's found on page 46 of the English

8 translation and it is a diary entry of January 31st, 1992.

9 Q. I would like you to read that entry through the end of the

10 sentence that says: "Flogging a dead horse."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Your comments and observations, please.

13 A. Mr. Jankovic, at the Tuzla Corps command, meets Mr. Zekic. I

14 think this is Goran Zekic. I'm sure of it, because I've already said that

15 he knew Petar Jankovic and that he went to Tuzla with him, to the corps.

16 And that a part of the weapons shipment should be given to Bratunac and

17 Srebrenica, probably in accordance with an agreement between him and

18 Zekic. I don't know who these other people are and what this SCA means,

19 and I don't know who this Becir is. I don't know what that means,

20 "tonight in Milici," I don't know what that means.

21 Q. All right. Let me refer you again to another portion of this

22 diary. This is --

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask one additional question?

24 MR. HARMON: Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: The text also reads: "You are not going to see the

Page 983

1 godfather." Is the godfather just what it means or did the word

2 "godfather" have any specific meaning in that time in your circles?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, there is no special

4 meaning. I understand what you can be associated with, but I assume that

5 "godfather" means General Jankovic. That would be the head of the corps

6 commander.

7 JUDGE ORIE: This is your interpretation. Did you ever hear the

8 word "godfather" used where you were sure that it was referring to

9 Jankovic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Petar Jankovic had several kums,

11 best men. He also had a priest from Vlasenica who was his best man, and

12 he would often refer to kum this and kum that. I heard from

13 Petar Jankovic that his kum was also this other Jankovic.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have you one second for me?

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have another question for you. It reads, in

17 English, and I have consulted with at least one of my -- of the other

18 Judges, who is also not a native English speaker. It reads in English:

19 "He gave me my share of ammo." But I don't know whether "ammo" is a

20 word, a normal English word or whether it's an abbreviation or -- of

21 course, I haven't seen the original B/C/S version, but could you perhaps

22 check for me what it reads in B/C/S. So that's the -- just after Bratunac

23 and Srebrenica mentioned, in English, it reads: "He gave me my share of

24 ammo, out of which I should give some to ...."

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the version in the Serbian

Page 984

1 language, which I have here, it says that -- it talks about "municija,"

2 ammunition, so this would be the cartridges or the bullets for weapons.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what we guessed that it was, but it's

4 now confirmed. Ammo, is that an ordinary abbreviation for ammunition?

5 MR. STEWART: Yes, it is, but it's a -- I don't know what it is in

6 the American language, but in the English language it's, if you like, it's

7 army slang and quite common slang, mild slang, nothing vulgar, but it

8 sounds as if the correct translation here would simply have been

9 "ammunition," and to introduce that slightly more colloquial slang

10 connotation of the word was not a correct translation.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Judges apologise for not having been

12 neither in the British or in the American army. Please proceed.

13 MR. STEWART: Neither were we, I think, Your Honour.


15 Q. Mr. Deronjic, finally let me turn your attention to page 201.

16 MR. HARMON: Mr. Stewart, page 47.

17 MR. STEWART: Thank you.


19 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I would like you to read two entries, one

20 starting -- one dated February 4th, 1992. And if you would read the entry

21 as well for February the 5th, 1992 to the end.

22 A. Yes, I've read it.

23 Q. Now, let me -- Judge Orie asked you a question about kum. In the

24 first sentence is a person identified as the godfather?

25 A. Yes, that's correct. It's obvious that Mr. Jankovic has several

Page 985

1 kums. This is Dancic, this Dancic person in Tuzla is somebody I don't

2 know.

3 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we will provide evidence as to the

4 identity of this individual later in the course of the trial.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll wait for that.

6 MR. HARMON: All right.

7 Q. Could I have your comments, please, on these two diary entries.

8 A. Mr. Jankovic wrote down that -- excuse me. I would just like to

9 look it over. With Vesna, his wife, Mr. Jankovic met in Tuzla, with this

10 kum, in a hotel, where he gave him a gift. They were at dinner, and he

11 gave him a present. This is a briefcase or a pen, as far as I can see.

12 Yes, a pen and a briefcase. This is probably about -- the conversation

13 probably included mention of weapons and that there should be some kind of

14 meeting with General Jankovic --

15 Q. And have you read the entry --

16 A. -- about this.

17 Q. Dated February 5th, 1992, the next entry that starts on page 204?

18 MR. HARMON: The same page, Mr. Stewart, page 47.

19 A. Yes, I've read this first part. This is a meeting with

20 General Jankovic, in Tuzla. Mr. Petar Jankovic mentions some people whom

21 I don't know. I don't know their names.

22 Q. And this -- well, it says the following, I'd like your comments,

23 Mr. Deronjic. I'm referring to the entry of February 5th, 1992, the third

24 sentence: "The general received us pleasantly. Just as we started

25 presenting our requests, godfather arrived." And then I won't read the

Page 986

1 whole sentence. It goes on to say: "Requests are about providing the

2 unit with weapons."

3 A. Yes, 450 pieces.

4 Q. And does this entry confirm what Mr. Zekic had informed you about

5 the role of General Jankovic?

6 A. I have to say that information about Zekic being in Tuzla was

7 something that I did not hear from him. I heard it from his secretary in

8 the party, Mr. Jokic, who showed me a pistol on one occasion, which was

9 issued to him from the army. He showed me a receipt from some military

10 officer in Tuzla. And then he told me that Zekic, Petar Jankovic were in

11 Tuzla together. This is confirmed from this diary, the series of contacts

12 that Petar Jankovic had with General Jankovic, and indicates that on one

13 occasion, Mr. Goran Zekic also attended one of those meetings in Tuzla.

14 Q. You mention a receipt that was given to Mr. Jokic. Let me show

15 you the next exhibit, please, which is --

16 MR. HARMON: If I could have the number, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: The next number is Prosecution Exhibit number P49.

18 MR. HARMON: And if I could have the B/C/S version of that exhibit

19 put in front of Mr. Deronjic.

20 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I direct your attention to the signature on the

21 lower left-hand side of the document. Are you able to identify that

22 signature?

23 A. In the lower corner, it says "Major Jablanovic." No. Taken over

24 Petar. "Taken over by Petar." I've never had occasion that I remember to

25 see the signature of Petar Jankovic, so I couldn't swear that it is his

Page 987

1 signature. But the handwriting is very similar to the writing in the

2 diary, which I believe to be Petar Jankovic's.

3 Q. All right. And there appears, Mr. Deronjic, on the B/C/S copy

4 before you, a stamp. What is that stamp?

5 A. That's the stamp of the military post box Tuzla, indicating also

6 the number of that military post office, which means nothing to me,

7 because I don't know how these post offices were numbered.

8 Q. And this appears to be, does it not, a receipt for a pistol and

9 some bullets and a rap for pistol, that I'm unfamiliar with?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, if we could show Mr. Deronjic the next exhibit, please.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P50.


14 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I direct your attention to the bottom middle block

15 on that document. Do you see a name?

16 A. Yes. I see it. It says Petar Jankovic, and the signature is

17 identical to the one on the previous document.

18 Q. And this document is dated October the 28th, 1991; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And it describes certain weapons and bullets; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So this -- does this appear to be a receipt for weapons of various

24 types?

25 A. Yes. In my mind, these arms were received by Petar Jankovic,

Page 988

1 because it says "received by Petar Jankovic."

2 MR. HARMON: Now if I could have the next exhibit marked, please,

3 as an exhibit.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P51.

5 MR. HARMON: If the B/C/S version again could be placed before

6 Mr. Deronjic.

7 Q. Mr. Deronjic, take a moment to acquaint yourself with that

8 document. Let me ask you: Have you seen this document before coming in

9 to testify?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, on the first page of this document, let me just orient the

12 Court. On the first page of this document, it is dated in the upper

13 left-hand corner March the 20th, 1992. It is from the command of the 2nd

14 Military District. It is a military secret, strictly confidential, and it

15 is from General -- or the commander, General Kukanjac. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If you could turn to the second page of the document in front of

18 you. The title of this document is: "Conclusions of the evaluation of

19 the situation on the BiH territory in the zone of responsibility of

20 2nd Military District," again, marked "military secret, strictly

21 confidential."

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I would like to direct your attention, Mr. Deronjic, to a section

24 of that document, that is, part 4. It says: "Paramilitary organisation

25 in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

Page 989

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, if I could refer you, Mr. Deronjic, to the paragraph directly

3 above that.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As soon as it comes on the screen. It looks like it's resisting.

6 I will read this paragraph to you. Mr. Deronjic, this paragraph

7 says -- and it relates to the preceding paragraph. It says: "Regarding

8 this matter, commander of the 2nd Military District will soon have a

9 discussion with the leadership of the Serbian people (Karadzic, Koljevic,

10 Plavsic, Krajisnik, and Dukic)." Is that correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Now, if you'd turn, Mr. Deronjic, to part 5, which in your text --

13 MR. HARMON: And Mr. Stewart, this is on -- if you have it on CD,

14 it's on page 6.

15 Q. Part 5 starts with: Volunteer units in the zone of the

16 2nd Military District."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you read that text, Mr. Deronjic, through the second

19 paragraph that says "some experiences ..."

20 A. Yes, I've read it.

21 Q. Do you agree with me, Mr. Deronjic, that this paragraph relates to

22 providing weapons to volunteer units that are not part of the JNA or

23 Territorial Defence?

24 A. No. I think --

25 Q. Mr. Deronjic --

Page 990

1 A. -- this is a reference to volunteer units --

2 Q. Let me direct you to 5, subpart c, the last sentence.

3 A. "For the time being, it would be necessary to stop with the

4 formation and arming of volunteer units."

5 Q. Let me read you -- do you see a 5, and then you see, lower-case

6 letter, a, b, and c. I'd like to direct you to a certain portion. Do you

7 that "c"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you read the last sentence of that.

10 A. Yes. Yes. It says: "Volunteer units are outside of the

11 establishment composition of the army and TO." It is not very clearly

12 legible, but I can distinguish that that is the sentence.

13 Q. And the subpart b directly above that, discusses how many people

14 there were, doesn't it?

15 A. Yes. 69.100-something men.

16 Q. Now, go down, if you would, Mr. Deronjic, to subpart f?

17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I make two comments, please,

18 Your Honour. One is that since the witness is here and we do have an

19 apparently illegible passage in 5c it might be helpful if the witness were

20 able to assist the Tribunal and everybody with that apparently illegible

21 part at the very beginning of c. He may or may not, but he stands a

22 better chance than the rest of us because it's his language.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that the translation is also made by

24 someone who knows the language. But could you read the very first words

25 of subparagraph c.

Page 991

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I can't make out

2 the first two words. The first two words are completely illegible. Then

3 it says: "Is not envisaged for the replenishment of the RJ of the 2nd TO.

4 All units in the 2nd Military District," et cetera.

5 MR. STEWART: By the way, of course, I agree if the translation

6 wasn't made by somebody who is familiar with the language, we'd all be in

7 trouble. But that "d" is just a very obvious misprint in the title, in

8 the heading, to that number of people in the zone. It's clearly the

9 number of people in the zone of the corps.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps could you read the title of d, of

11 subparagraph d. Could you please read the title in your language. Aloud,

12 please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Troop strength is 69.100." We

14 can't make out the --

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- Referring to D, not to B, of Bernard, but to D of

16 Deronjic.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency. D: ",

18 "Number of men in the zones of the corps."


20 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, may I make a suggestion? Rather than

21 having these kind of interruptions, I think counsel and I could agree out

22 of the courtroom as to these kind of language difficulties and I would be

23 able to proceed in a much more expeditious fashion.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It could save time in Court, and let me make

25 then the following observation: If it would be something that would

Page 992

1 really obstruct the understanding of the Chamber, it certainly should be

2 done at the very moment. But, as a matter of fact, this correction

3 perhaps we should have -- we would have overlooked it anyhow. We could be

4 informed about it later that there's a -- that there's a translation which

5 is not fully correct. So I would like to invite the parties to intervene

6 and to interrupt whenever really necessary for our understanding and

7 otherwise to arrange for the matters outside of Court.

8 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, it is a quarter to 2.00.

10 MR. HARMON: I had only a few more questions about this document,

11 but I can --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then I first would have to know how much

13 additional time would be available, in view of the afternoon session,

14 because tapes have to be exchanged, et cetera. And also in respect of the

15 interpreters and technicians.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].

17 JUDGE ORIE: Unfortunately, for practical and technical reasons,

18 since this courtroom will be used and since there are a lot of technical

19 aspects have to be dealt with first, I have to stop you at this moment.

20 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Deronjic, may I -- what I may have forgotten

22 yesterday. May I instruct you not to speak with anyone. That means not

23 with parties, not with other inmates, not with whomever, speak about your

24 testimony that you have given in this Court and that you're still about to

25 give in this Court. We'd like to see you back, then, next Monday. We are

Page 993

1 sitting in the morning on Monday in courtroom -- Madam Registrar?

2 Courtroom I.

3 We adjourn until Monday, 9.00.

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm sorry. Before Your Honour

5 adjourns. Could I say: I accept the comment made about the corrections,

6 the particular one about corps and corpses was perhaps slightly

7 unfortunate which is why we mentioned that. But may we just inquire what

8 the position is in relation to our application for certification.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The only thing I can tell you that we have read

10 your submission that is either filed or not on the basis --

11 MR. STEWART: It has been filed.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It has been filed.

13 MR. STEWART: Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: On the basis of that document, the Chamber will not

15 change its position as it has decided before. That means that -- I can

16 tell you that perhaps the main reason for that, your submission repeats

17 what risk, or in your view, serious risk there is that a testimony -- but

18 perhaps I'll first ask Mr. Deronjic to be escorted out of the courtroom.

19 Could you please escort Mr. Deronjic out of the courtroom.

20 Mr. Cvijetic, I don't think your presence is necessary any more

21 for what we are discussing at this very moment.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE ORIE: I will be very brief, because we have to leave this

24 courtroom. It's very much emphasised in your submission of this morning

25 what risk of a untruthful testimony exists, and apart from that, specific

Page 994

1 attention is given to the procedural issues as we find them in the

2 Rule - what is it? - 73. The Chamber doesn't change its position on the

3 basis of this, because the Chamber in its decision has, in its oral

4 decision, has explained clearly that it is aware that the situation has a

5 risk that this could happen. But the Chamber also explained that that's

6 not the definition of the situation as a whole. The Chamber has also

7 explained that there are other mechanisms also in place which might lead

8 in another direction, and the Chamber has also explained that if one

9 waits, that there might again be other psychological mechanisms that could

10 either favour or disfavour a truthful testimony.

11 To that extent, this submission emphasises one part where the

12 Chamber has sought to balance and to see what is the weight of each of

13 these circumstances, each of these risks. On the basis of that, the

14 Chamber has decided not to change its view at this moment, and our work

15 this afternoon -- I hope to deliver a decision in writing, if possible,

16 even this afternoon.

17 MR. STEWART: On the -- when Your Honour says "decision in

18 writing," Your Honour means on the original motion.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which would give you an opportunity to further

20 study the decision of the Chamber and to make any further submissions you

21 would like to make on the basis of that.

22 MR. STEWART: Yes. I'm obliged, Your Honour. Thank you for

23 that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have to adjourn because the courtroom is needed

25 we'll adjourn for the second time until Monday morning, 9.00.

Page 995

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.

2 to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of February

3 2004, at 9.00 a.m.