1 Thursday, 19 February 2004

2 (Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-00-39-T, The Prosecutor versus

7 Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Good afternoon to everyone. Mr. Stewart, is the Defence ready to

10 continue its cross-examination of the witness Deronjic? Yes, then, the

11 witness may be brought into the courtroom.

12 Mr. Harmon.

13 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, at the conclusion of yesterday's

14 session, Your Honours asked about a specific minute and whether it was

15 already in evidence, and I can inform Your Honours that it is -- the

16 minute that is referred to by Mr. Deronjic is found in Prosecution

17 Exhibit 39. I have prepared extra copies of Prosecution Exhibit 39 which

18 can be distributed to you, and you will find reference to that particular

19 meeting of the municipal board that was held in Kravica on the 22nd of

20 January 1992 on page 13 of the exhibit.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's part of the book.

23 MR. HARMON: Yes, that's correct.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now I feel a bit less ashamed of myself not to

25 know exactly what is in the book as a whole.

1 MR. HARMON: But the reference is on page 13.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

3 Mr. Deronjic, I apologise for not -- doing something else when you

4 entered the courtroom. Please be seated. It might sound familiar already

5 to you, but nevertheless I would remind you that you're still bound by the

6 solemn declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony, and

7 you certainly will remind my words spoken at that very moment.

8 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

9 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 WITNESS: MIROSLAV DERONJIC [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]

13 Q. Mr. Deronjic, good afternoon. You told the Chamber yesterday that

14 in Bratunac, you had adapted Variant B because you weren't able strictly

15 to follow the instructions set out.

16 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Stewart. Yes, that's correct, that's what I

17 said.

18 Q. And you also said that you decided to maintain contacts with

19 Muslim representatives.

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Was Mr. Zekic aware of the maintenance of those contacts?

22 A. Yes, he did -- he was.

23 Q. And did he raise any objection?

24 A. No, we completely disagreed about it. I can just say that he did

25 not apply Variant A and B in Srebrenica at all, and I think that the

1 reason for that was that there wasn't an adequate number of Serbs in the

2 joint organs of authority, and he felt that this should not be done. I

3 was able to discuss this with him, and he simply did not interfere in what

4 we were doing and how we were doing things in Bratunac. He's a man whom I

5 know well, and he's not very systematic in his work, if I can put it that

6 way.

7 Q. Now moving to a different topic, then, you -- in your evidence

8 earlier in this hearing, you said that in the course of the summer in

9 which you were talking about, 1991, you said that there was some

10 activities which you implemented and that was the arming of the people.

11 And you said that a large number of the population at the time on one side

12 and the other were armed. Those were your words.

13 First of all, when you talk about one side and the other, can we

14 be clear who it is you're talking about?

15 A. Yes. When I said that a large number of the population was armed,

16 including one side and the other, I was thinking of the Serbs in Bratunac

17 and the Muslims in Bratunac.

18 Q. And in 1991, in the summer, are you able to give any indication of

19 the relative scale of arms bearing by the two sides, Serbs and Muslims?

20 A. I could tell you what I know. Of course, I don't know precisely

21 the number of Serbs who were armed, and it's hard to say to what extent

22 the Muslims were armed. However, some events from that period, or rather

23 clashes practically open conflicts, even though a slightly milder term

24 could be unrest in Bratunac caused by various political developments

25 stirred up the ethnic tensions or national tensions in the municipalities

1 so that at one point in unrest developed into open conflict, including two

2 killings. From late August until the late fall and the beginning of the

3 winter of 1991, 1992, the town was practically under barricades, and it

4 was very difficult to control the situation in the field. It was

5 difficult for the police to do so.

6 I will mention that at one point, because of the killing of two

7 Muslims in Kravica, Bratunac was visited by top representatives of the

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities. Mr. Koljevic came to Bratunac

9 representing the Serb side. Mr. Ostojic on behalf of the SDS, and Mr.

10 Ejup Ganic. I think he was at the time he was the vice-president or

11 something. But anyway, he was one of the key figures in the SDA. And

12 Mr. --

13 Q. Can we just pause a second, Mr. Deronjic. Can we put a date on

14 that, the particular incident in Kravica? Or can you put a date on it, is

15 what I mean.

16 A. It's September. I don't know the exact date. I have it written

17 down somewhere. If you remind me, perhaps I could give you the exact date

18 tomorrow. But it was in September that the killing of two Muslims

19 occurred in Kravica. The circumstances are well known, if you are

20 interested, or the Trial Chamber, in finding out more details I can

21 explain.

22 Q. If we can just try and put a date on it then. If I suggested to

23 you that it was, in fact, Saturday, the 31st of August 1991, would you be

24 prepared to accept that that was the date?

25 A. Yes, I could accept that. I said September, but now you've helped

1 me, so we're talking about late August. That's the date.

2 Q. And then in early September, that delegation arrived that you

3 described. That's correct, isn't it?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. And what was -- what was the purpose of their visit?

6 A. The purpose of their visit was the unrest in Bratunac, those two

7 killings. They came, and they were forced to land in Bratunac in a

8 helicopter because Bratunac was blocked on all sides. All the villages --

9 in all the villages, people erected barricades. The tensions were

10 especially high between Glogova from where the two people who were killed

11 in Kravica were, and the village of Kravica. There were barricades all

12 over the place, including in the town itself. There were barricades in a

13 number of streets.

14 In that period, I went to all those places with the

15 representatives from Sarajevo who came. I went to Kravica, to Glogova, I

16 was in Bratunac town also. We addressed the Muslim citizens. And we

17 could see that both sides had weapons, and they were publicly carrying

18 those weapons. We saw numerous people with weapons on barricades of each

19 of the sides.

20 Q. I'll come back to barricades if I may in a moment. But so far as

21 this delegation was concerned, this high-level delegation, did they

22 inquire or investigate into the events which had occurred as you've just

23 described?

24 A. Yes. They asked questions, and they asked me to tell them exactly

25 what happened. I talked with all of them individually, and also

1 separately with the Serb side and the Muslim side. So I did provide the

2 answers to what the cause of all of those conflicts was.

3 Q. And did that delegation pronounce any conclusions as to what had

4 happened in Kravica?

5 A. Other than visiting Glogova, Mr. Hebib and I visited Glogova, and

6 we addressed a gathering in Glogova which was attended by a large number

7 of people. And then I also visited Kravica with the Serb representatives,

8 and also addressed the people there. No other measures were undertaken

9 over those few days. Several days later, the Bratunac security station

10 staff was replaced, including the chief and the commander. I think that

11 people were brought from outside, from Tuzla, I think, to take charge of

12 that security station. These were the measures that the delegation

13 carried out.

14 Q. Did they in any way look into the question of the scale of arms

15 which were held by Muslims and Serbs in that locality?

16 A. No. I have to say that at one point we discussed this at the

17 municipality, and it was noted that there were too many weapons in

18 Bratunac, that everybody there personally saw those weapons. Neither side

19 was interested in the details of how this arming came about. It was just

20 a fact that was noted.

21 Q. And were you able at that time yourself to have any -- well, I'll

22 rephrase it. What degree of knowledge did you personally have about the

23 scale of arms which was held in the first place by Muslims?

24 A. It was difficult to control. Of course, we knew that the Muslim

25 side was arming itself. We monitored this, and I think that they also

1 knew that we were arming ourselves. Sometimes at joint meetings, we would

2 accuse one another. They would accuse us, and we would accuse them. So

3 this was an open secret in Bratunac, that we were all armed. To what

4 extent, I am not able to say, but I personally knew about it, and I had

5 and I still have to this day with my lawyer the minutes of an SDA meeting

6 in Bratunac in early 1992 in which they are distributing weapons and

7 communications equipment in local communes and different settlements, and

8 they are saying how many pieces of weapons were delivered to each village

9 and how much was due to arrive. I still have those minutes today, and I

10 think they're in the possession of my lawyer.

11 I'm saying this, but it's true that each side was arming itself.

12 Q. Now, in relation to a different locality, we've heard in the

13 course of this case a description of arms being held by Muslims as being

14 hunting rifles and not very much more than that. Would that description

15 of largely hunting rifles being held by the Muslim community, would that

16 be an accurate description of the situation in the Bratunac locality in

17 the summer of 1991?

18 A. I personally, as well as the gentlemen who came to Bratunac, could

19 see all kinds of weapons, including automatic weapons in Glogova. They

20 could see that at the barricades. At the meeting I attended in Glogova,

21 also you could see the weapons.

22 Q. And were such weapons of that type in the hands of both the Muslim

23 community and the Serb community?

24 A. Glogova is populated by Muslims, so the weapons were held by the

25 Muslims. In Bratunac, you could see automatic weapons at the barricades.

1 And the barricades were either those of the Serbs or the Muslims, and each

2 side had weapons.

3 Q. And these barricades, the word is a fairly simple one, but could

4 you give some -- perhaps a little bit more description of the nature of

5 these barricades and the effect they had on the life of Bratunac?

6 A. Yes. It did seem incredible, but this is what happened. After

7 the killings in Kravica, throughout the town and the municipality, people

8 were erecting barricades and posting sentries. When I say barricades, I'm

9 thinking of barriers placed across roads and thoroughfares. For example,

10 in Kravica they knocked down a tree to block the road. And they left a

11 small space so that cars could pass by. In Glogova as well. I toured all

12 of these places, so this is how I know the details. They brought out

13 heavy forestry machinery, large tractors out on the streets. The

14 machinery that handles large tree trunks. So you had to be very careful

15 in traffic. It proceeded with caution so that everything was under

16 control.

17 In Bratunac, there were barricades in practically every street out

18 of fear that open conflict could start. You could see in the streets that

19 people had brought out objects. For example, they brought horse carts and

20 left them on the streets, or old trucks, old cars so that they could have

21 control over the traffic flow. And I saw numerous people with weapons at

22 those barricades. At one point, I myself was in a very unpleasant

23 situation because I was not able to go through a barricade. It seemed to

24 me that I would get killed because I lost my way. I came into this street

25 trying to avoid other barricades, so I couldn't get out of it. What I'm

1 trying to say is the situation remained dramatic, and it remained so until

2 the end of that year. The barricades were up for quite a long time.

3 For example, the police would enter one street to do their work,

4 and the guards posted on the street, whether they were Muslim or Serb

5 depending on the situation, would even stop the police, and sometimes they

6 would even talk to them. The police would speak to the people with the

7 weapons in a good-natured way. And sometimes, actually most times, they

8 would allow the police to pass. But sometimes it happened that they would

9 turn them back.

10 After these events, we would sit down together with the Muslim

11 side often and discuss that with them so that already in early January or

12 late December, the situation had calmed down a little bit and some of the

13 barricades were dismantled and taken off the streets.

14 Q. These barricades were to -- on the edges of particular sections or

15 neighbourhoods of the town, were they? In one case a Muslim area and in

16 another case a predominantly Serb area. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct. There were some streets or some

18 neighbourhoods which were populated by one population group or the other.

19 And I can mention which streets and which barricades these were and who

20 the area was populated by. I can say, for example, that guards would --

21 from a Muslim checkpoint would go to talk to guards at the Serb

22 checkpoint. There were some absurd situations. People were communicating

23 amongst themselves, but they kept -- they held on to their weapons for

24 fear that somebody would do something to them. That's what the situation

25 was like.

1 Q. And these -- did these barricades, they may not have been totally

2 unchanged, but barricades remained, did they, in Bratunac and in

3 neighbouring villages right through until April 1992?

4 A. No. In the fall, just before winter, I think this was sometime in

5 December, we managed to dismantle these barricades, but people continued

6 to keep sentry. I know that in Bratunac there were guard duties. There

7 were no longer any barricades, but people would be on guard. For example,

8 a man would stand guard at his own house. During the day, he would go and

9 work.

10 Q. When you say: "We managed to dismantle the barriers at the end of

11 1991," does "we" mean the local police, or who else does "we" mean?

12 A. These were joint efforts. I have to say that at the time when

13 we're talking about the SDA leadership, their key figures, the president

14 of the municipality, Mr. Nijaz Dubicic, I had a series of contacts, not

15 only I, but other people, too, from the organs of authority on the Serb

16 side. A series of meetings also attended by the members of the police.

17 And I can say that they did not support any of this, neither did we. We

18 were asking for these barricades to be removed and for life to return to

19 normal so that the police could do their work, including the investigation

20 into these killings, which was a pretext for these conflicts.

21 Q. And you said in your evidence earlier that all these events, and

22 you were talking at that time of really the second half of 1991, took

23 place against the background of the open war raging in the Republic of

24 Croatia, which was followed closely in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Do you

25 recall that?

1 A. I can say that the effect of the war in Croatia on the events in

2 Bratunac was direct because some people, both Serbs and Muslims, went to

3 those fronts as volunteers. And I know that perhaps ten young men, whom I

4 knew, perhaps there were more - I don't know - they went to Croatia to the

5 front from the Serb corps, but there were also many young Muslims who went

6 as volunteers to the fronts in Croatia and fought on the Croat side. When

7 they returned from the front, they brought the atmosphere of the front

8 back with them, so we had disputes also about this matter. To us Serbs,

9 it was inconceivable that the Muslims, in a war which wasn't their own,

10 participated on the Croat side. But they had their own reasons for this.

11 In return, they accused us of our young men going to war in a different

12 state. But this was not a mass occurrence. However, for various reasons,

13 people did go to these theatres of war. When I say various reasons, I'm

14 thinking of looting, robbery, different motives. The people who went

15 there had different motives for doing so.

16 Q. Now, in your evidence on -- well, it was yesterday, of course, you

17 referred to the affair involving Mr. Spegelj, in the arming of Croats in

18 Croatia. First question on that is -- before I ask you any more about it,

19 did that affair have any impact on the Bratunac locality?

20 A. Indirectly, yes, but it is a very stretched link. If you're

21 thinking of the arming, yes, there was a lot of pressure for the Serbs to

22 get armed. But I don't think that there was any direct link, any direct

23 effect on the actual war events in the area. However, the

24 dissatisfaction --

25 Q. I'm sorry, I interrupted, Mr. Deronjic. You said: "However, the

1 dissatisfaction."

2 A. No, what I was trying to say was that this caused great

3 dissatisfaction amongst the Serbs. The newly elected authorities in the

4 Republic of Croatia, because of this arming which we considered to be a

5 direct threat to the Serbs in Croatia. This is how this whole thing was

6 interpreted over the media, and this was the interpretation that we were

7 receiving from the top levels of authority. And this is why we received

8 an image of the situation which may have been erroneous. But in the final

9 analysis, this caused major dissatisfaction amongst the Serbs in Bosnia.

10 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I was really in a sense trying to avoid going too

11 much into something which you confirmed didn't have a direct impact on

12 Bratunac. But in the light of the last few answers, I really had better

13 ask you, then, to tell the Tribunal as briefly as you can what was the

14 affair involving Mr. Spegelj and the arming of Croats in Croatia?

15 A. You probably know actually. I don't know how much you know. But

16 this affair was a matter of public knowledge, and it was published and

17 broadcast in the media that Spegelj participated in the arming of Croats

18 in Croatia at the time when the common state of Yugoslavia still existed.

19 This arming, these weapons came from the neighbouring countries through

20 various channels, and the State Security Service followed this, and they

21 even managed to shoot some of the activities. And I had opportunity to

22 see the footage of this affair involving this arming.

23 Q. Well, I've got to ask you about something else now, then,

24 Mr. Deronjic. You said -- when you were talking about the pressure, you

25 talked about -- well, I don't want to misquote. You say -- you talked

1 about fear, Serbs arming themselves because they were fearful of the

2 possibility that during the breakup of Yugoslavia certain things which had

3 happened in the past could happen again. And you said that people were

4 under a lot of pressure to rearm. And then you said: "Then again, there

5 was the pressure on the people because they did not fully trust the

6 Yugoslav People's Army, the JNA." Who was it who didn't trust the

7 Yugoslav People's Army?

8 A. You want me to answer only the question concerning the JNA? It

9 seems to me that you have asked several questions. If you want me to talk

10 about the JNA only, I can certainly do that.

11 Q. I didn't intend to ask several questions, so I'll refine it then.

12 The question was you referred to there being pressure on the people to arm

13 because they did not fully trust the Yugoslav People's Army. And I'm

14 asking you who it was who did not fully trust the Yugoslav People's Army?

15 A. There was a large number of people within the Serbian Democratic

16 Party who did not trust the Yugoslav People's Army. When I say, "A large

17 number of people," I'm not only referring to the membership, to the

18 members. I cannot speak about that. I am referring to the officials of

19 the SDS. Both at the local and the regional level in which I

20 participated. And also on the basis of my knowledge from the top

21 republican level of the party, I knew that there was a difference in

22 opinion as to the future role of the JNA. You're probably aware of the

23 fact that a lot of SDS members were anti-communists, and they considered

24 the army to be part of the previous, former regime, and that it was a big

25 question mark whether they would be willing to side with the Serbs in the

1 implementation of the programme, in the implementation of the nationalist

2 objectives.

3 Such opinions were frequently expressed, and I often was able to

4 hear criticism from the members of the main board, criticism which was

5 levelled against the JNA and the fact that they were not able to adopt

6 themselves to the present moment, the actual political situation and the

7 events as they were unfolding on the ground. So apart from the failure to

8 adapt ideologically, I have to say, so that it should be perfectly clear,

9 that the JNA was still multiethnic. Their leadership, but also the rank

10 and file were multiethnic.

11 Q. I want to ask you about decisions that you took that you referred

12 to in Bratunac in early May of 1992, and two particular decisions you

13 referred to. One was a decision banning the activities of all

14 paramilitary formations in the territory of Bratunac, and the other was a

15 decision allowing the police legally to disarm illegal groups which

16 appeared in the locality. Now, you remember giving evidence about those

17 two decisions?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. Was Mr. Zekic aware of those decisions being taken?

20 A. I'm certain that he knew about the first decision. As for the

21 second one, the one of the 13th of May, Mr. Zekic was already dead. He

22 died on the 8th.

23 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... Yes. Yes, I beg your

24 pardon, the second decision came a few days later, so of course that would

25 follow. So in relation to the first decision, did you ever hear any

1 protest or objection or dissent from Mr. Zekic in relation to that?

2 A. I saw Mr. Zekic on the 4th or the 5th of May. Unfortunately, this

3 was the last time I saw him. So I really cannot say what his view was.

4 Q. My question was whether, in fact, he indicated any dissent or

5 opposition to that first decision.

6 A. At the meeting in the Fontana Hotel, I did not mention this

7 decision at all. We discussed the overall role of the volunteers and the

8 plans that they seemed to be receiving from someone. That was the essence

9 of the discussion. He didn't make any comments, nor did I raise any

10 particular issue with respect to that. No, he did not give any comment to

11 that effect.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters are kindly asking Mr. Stewart to

13 come closer to the microphone, please.

14 MR. STEWART:

15 Q. You referred earlier in your evidence to a disarming plan, and you

16 said that after -- Captain Reljic took control, and that was in April --

17 middle of April 1992, according to your evidence, he was issuing commands.

18 And then in late April, so we're talking about 1992, certain activities

19 occurred out in Muslim villages, and in particular collection of weapons

20 in Muslim villages and warehousing of those weapons at a depot of the

21 police station in Bratunac. Were you involved in any way in that

22 collection of weapons and warehousing?

23 A. Yes, I was. Not only that, I took part in one such operation of

24 disarming as a soldier. I did not have any particular function at that

25 time, and I had been mobilised as a soldier. And I participated in the

1 action of the disarming of the village of Podcaus, as a soldier.

2 Q. And -- well, let's take that village, Podcaus, to start with. Did

3 your involvement in that enable you to form any view of what the scale of

4 arming and arms bearing had been in that village in April 1992?

5 A. The name of the village is Podcaus, and it is actually almost a

6 suburb of Bratunac in the direction of Srebrenica. I was not able to gain

7 any insight into that. I mean, I was with the troops, with the soldiers,

8 in a forest far from the village. It was members of the military and the

9 police who actually entered the village and carried out the disarming

10 itself. However, later, when I became a member of the municipal Crisis

11 Staff, I was able to check the quantity of the weapons that had been

12 seized during that operation. I think that most of those weapons were

13 hunting rifles and various kinds of trophy weapons which were first stored

14 at the police station in Bratunac, but then moved to the Zvornik police

15 station. So I think the exact number can be established. According to

16 the information that I had, I think that we were talking about 300, or

17 perhaps a little more, rifles that had been surrendered by the Muslims

18 during this operation of disarming in Bratunac.

19 Q. And those 300 came from a -- can you say, came from a population

20 of how many approximately?

21 A. 22.000 residents who were Muslims in Bratunac.

22 Q. And are you able to give any further information about the scale

23 of arms bearing in the vicinity of Bratunac at that time, in April 1992?

24 A. I'm afraid I don't have any direct knowledge of that. In April

25 1992, I did not have opportunity to count them. But it was a large

1 quantity of weapons. I have indirect knowledge coming from the testimony

2 of some Muslims, even in my case, who mentioned the fact that they had

3 buried a certain amount of weapons. Again, no numbers were mentioned.

4 But there are indications that they had secret caches of weapons.

5 I'm not trying to strike any kind of balance here. But the fact

6 remains that they had weapons. If you want me to be precise, I think that

7 the Serbs had more weapons than Muslims in Bratunac; however, as a result

8 of their numbers, Muslims in terms of the number -- the size of the

9 population, the Muslims outnumbered Serbs. But they had weapons as well.

10 Q. Now, I'd like you, please, Mr. Deronjic - and I indicated this

11 exhibit earlier to the Tribunal - to have a look, please, at P47.

12 Do you have that, Mr. Deronjic? It's -- you have been asked about

13 this before, a decision on strategic objectives of the Serbian People in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you have that in front of you?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. And you were asked -- Mr. Harmon asked you, as I'm asking you now,

17 to focus on strategic objective number 3 on that list. And Mr. Harmon

18 asked you if you'd like to comment on the statement made by Mr. Kertes in

19 April of 1991 in Belgrade in this particular strategic objective. And you

20 said: "Yes, Mr. Harmon, I think these things are connected," that's

21 Mr. Kertes's statement, "perhaps not in this form, refers to the strategic

22 decision of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina." And I'm just

23 wondering what -- if you could say what you meant by "perhaps not in this

24 form"?

25 A. See, here, it says: "To establish a corridor in the Drina River

1 valley," that is, to eliminate the border, which is clearly stated in

2 item 3 of this decision. Kertes uttered a sentence which was rather

3 outspoken, but it was not a precise rendering of what and how it should be

4 done. He didn't use these same words. He just said 50 kilometres from

5 the Drina River, the area will be completely Serb. So although the words

6 were not the same, the idea is exactly the same.

7 Q. Now, turning to something else, I just want to ask you about, do

8 you recall that meeting you've given evidence about when you went to Pale

9 in May 1992, and you made a report which included a reference to what had

10 happened in Glogova. You remember that?

11 A. Yes, correct.

12 Q. And you already described quite a lot about that meeting. You

13 received some sort of applause at that meeting, didn't you?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. What sort of applause was it? Was it polite applause for an

16 efficient report? Was it in the nature of some enthusiastic, unusual

17 congratulation? What -- how was it?

18 A. To be perfectly frank, my impression was that this was a form of

19 congratulation on the job that I had done well.

20 Q. What had you reported to the -- because you described to the

21 Tribunal you had a private discussion later about it. But how much had

22 you actually reported to the meeting about what had happened in Bratunac

23 and in Glogova?

24 A. I said that the population of the village of Glogova had been

25 forcibly moved out. I'm not sure I used the exact expression, but it was

1 perfectly clear that they had not left on their own, of their own free

2 will; that the village had by and large been burned down; that there had

3 been a lot of destruction in Glogova as well; that the operation of the

4 forcible removal of the Muslim population would continue the next day in

5 Bratunac and the neighbouring villages. That was the essence of my

6 statement. I cannot remember all the details.

7 I also indicated that I did not have information regarding the

8 killings in Glogova, and I did not inform them of that because I truly

9 didn't know anything about that on that day.

10 Q. And you described later on, Mr. Djeric was angry about that

11 particular matter.

12 A. Yes, he was very angry.

13 Q. Can you say, what were the essential points that gave rise to his

14 anger?

15 A. Everything. The fact that the population had been forcibly

16 removed, the fact that the village had been burned down, almost all of it.

17 He was surprised at hearing this, and I think his response concerned all

18 of this and provoked his anger.

19 Q. I want to ask you about something different, Mr. Deronjic.

20 MR. STEWART: I wonder if the witness please could have up -- if

21 we could have P52.

22 Q. You've seen this before, of course. This is a bank document. I

23 just want to ask you -- it was put to you by Mr. Harmon. Do you know --

24 well, it's more than one page, but do you know any more about these

25 documents than can be read by looking at them?

1 A. The only thing I know was that Mr. Dukic, according to the stories

2 that went around, was financing the SDS. I don't know whether anything

3 else can mean anything. But I said that this document confirmed the

4 widely spread opinion that he was one of the persons who financed the SDS.

5 I don't know anything else about this document. I saw it only recently.

6 Q. In other words, anybody else reading this document can get as much

7 from it as you can, Mr. Deronjic?

8 A. I wouldn't say anybody else. Those who are familiar with the

9 stories and the rumours, yes, perhaps. But what we see here is only the

10 mention of payments, but we do not find anything about the purpose, the

11 objective of these payments. At least, I cannot see anything that would

12 indicate that.

13 Q. Let me put it another way: Of course, when I say "anybody,"

14 anybody who knows who Mr. Karadzic is, who knows who Mr. Krajisnik is and

15 who knows that Deutsche Bank is a bank. But given those matters, what I'm

16 putting to you, Mr. Deronjic, is that you don't personally know anything

17 about any of the particular items or particular individual matters

18 referred to in this document, do you, apart from what you actually see on

19 the writing on the document?

20 A. No, nothing. I don't know anything about these payments, items,

21 but what I can see here. But I made a link with the widely spread opinion

22 that Dukic was one of the financiers from the early periods of the SDS.

23 Q. Just a different point altogether, then and we'd be finished with

24 P52 for the moment. You described in your earlier evidence how you were

25 asked for some help in relation to getting away from Bratunac. You were

1 asked for some help by Mr. Dubicic?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. And did you, in fact, give help to Mr. Dubicic, which was of

4 practical value to him in getting away from Bratunac?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And was that the provision of a vehicle?

7 A. No. The vehicle belonged to the Bratunac public security station.

8 He just asked whether this would cause problems if he were to take the

9 vehicle, if they took the vehicle and left, and I said there should be no

10 problems, that they could take the vehicle.

11 Q. Yes, I wasn't suggesting you gave him your car, Mr. Deronjic. But

12 you -- so you gave your approval and authority to such a vehicle being

13 made available to enable Mr. Dubicic to get away from Bratunac?

14 A. Yes. I can say that, although it's a strange formulation that I

15 approved it, since the chief of police was there. He's the one who

16 disposes of the facilities of the station. I know that some people wanted

17 to stay and some wanted to leave Bratunac. But I didn't find anything

18 strange about that. I said that if you have any problems, you can always

19 cite me, if you have any problems in Kravica. And I know that they did

20 mention my name in Kravica, and then they left for Tuzla.

21 MR. STEWART: I've no further questions, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

23 Is there any need to re-examine the witness, Mr. Harmon?

24 MR. HARMON: A few questions, Your Honour. If I may have the

25 assistance of the usher to have the podium brought to me, I would

1 appreciate it. We have one podium for the two sides.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Harmon:

4 MR. HARMON: If I could have P48 shown to the witness.

5 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I would like to show you some entries in the diary

6 of Mr. Jankovic. I just invite your comments on this particular set of

7 entries.

8 MR. HARMON: And I have prepared for Your Honours the Jankovic

9 diaries in hard copy, and I could direct Your Honours' attention to the

10 portions that I'm referring to. The exhibit is P48.

11 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I want you to look at these particular entries. I

12 will invite your comment in a minute. And it deals with a question that

13 Mr. Stewart put to you on -- it's on page 27 of the LiveNote transcript

14 that I have, as to whether you had any contacts with Mr. Krajisnik from

15 1990 onwards. And you said in your answer that you had never had any

16 opportunity to contact Mr. Krajisnik personally in that period. And I

17 would like to refer you to the Jankovic diary.

18 I'm referring you to the entry that starts for January the 12th.

19 You will find that, Mr. Deronjic, if you could read -- if you could read

20 the diary entries and -- you are signaling me that that may not be the

21 right exhibit. Is that correct? If you could read the entries,

22 Mr. Deronjic, let me continue my question. It will be on the B/C/S

23 version of the diary on page 1 to the end of page 5.

24 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, it will be found on page 2 of the

25 English version. It will go through -- midway through page 4, the English

1 version.

2 To assist the Court, I have a copy. I can just let the witness

3 use my B/C/S copy. It's difficult to locate in what is currently

4 available.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that the Defence would agree that we

6 expect Mr. Harmon to give exactly the same copy as the original document.

7 MR. HARMON:

8 Q. Mr. Deronjic, if you could take a look at the entry in

9 Mr. Jankovic's diary, the entry I'm referring to is the entry from January

10 the 12th, 1991. And if you could read that entire entry. It ends at

11 page 5 in the B/C/S version.

12 A. Excuse me, are you just asking me to read what it says on page 5?

13 Q. No, I'm asking you to read the entry that starts on -- entry for

14 January the 12th, 1991. That should start on page 1. Do you see the

15 entry for January the 12th? If you would read that complete diary entry.

16 A. Yes, I see it. Yes, I've read the first page.

17 Q. If you could read the complete entry for that date. That should

18 carry you over, Mr. Deronjic, to the end of page 5. The entry ends,

19 Mr. Deronjic, just before the new entry dated January the 13th, 1991.

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. Just above the entry for January the 13th, it indicates that a

22 group of persons were to leave for Sarajevo to negotiate with Karadzic.

23 And your name is mentioned in item number 4. Do you see that reference?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Deronjic, if you would turn to the entry that is dated

1 January the 15th, 1991, in the English version it is found on page 5. In

2 the version before you, Mr. Deronjic, it is found on page 9. And it's

3 dated January the 15th, 1991, and there's a -- and I'll make it easy for

4 you -- easier for you, Mr. Deronjic. I will just read it.

5 It says: "Talks in Sarajevo. The meeting began at 1800. The

6 meeting was attended by Karadzic, SDS president; Krajisnik, BiH president;

7 Velibor Ostojic, Dukic (sick with ambition). Karadzic started the talks

8 by a lesson regarding forming a party within a party and regarding not

9 consulting him about that."

10 I will not read any further, Mr. Deronjic. But as I read and

11 understood the entry on January the 12th, a delegation went to see

12 Mr. Karadzic on the 15th in respect of the SDS -- the creation of the SDS

13 regional board in your region. You were selected to be one of the

14 participants in that meeting, and that meeting occurred a number of days

15 later in Sarajevo along with Mr. Krajisnik present. So does that,

16 Mr. Deronjic, refresh your recollection? Do you recall attending such a

17 meeting with Mr. Krajisnik?

18 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon. I mentioned this meeting in a conversation with

19 you during the interview I provided, but at the time I could not remember

20 all the participants. It's true that I attended this meeting, and I

21 remember Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic at this meeting. I mostly

22 focussed on what President Karadzic was saying, and I think that I said

23 that he was very angry because in his opinion we formed this region --

24 this regional board on our own initiative. Yes, this meeting did take

25 place.

1 Q. I was interested in correcting the answer that you gave that you

2 never had any opportunity to contact Krajisnik personally in the period of

3 time that was referenced by Mr. Stewart, which was the period of time of

4 1990 onwards. So let me ask you, Mr. Deronjic, what was the role of

5 Mr. Krajisnik in that meeting? What was his participation?

6 A. I really don't remember his participation. I don't remember him

7 saying anything, but I do remember that he was present. We were

8 criticised by Karadzic, and Dukic presented the main problem there because

9 he wanted to have his own informal power in Eastern Bosnia, and this is

10 where the disagreement came from. I don't really remember it all that

11 well. The role of President Krajisnik there was one of the leading

12 officials of the SDS. That's what we thought at the time.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Deronjic, I'm referring to the entry on January the 15th,

14 1991. It says, and I quote: "When we presented everything that we had

15 done, everyone but Dukic was left breathless. Karadzic and Krajisnik

16 congratulated." Can you expand on what that means, "Karadzic and

17 Krajisnik congratulated"?

18 A. I really don't know. Petar Jankovic is a very strange person. I

19 don't know whether we amazed them with our abilities or our political

20 work. I really don't think that. But probably we discussed some economic

21 activities, and they felt pleased about that. Jankovic was always talking

22 about establishing a bank. He always wanted to set up a bank. Jankovic,

23 before the outbreak of the conflict, left Bosnia and Herzegovina. He was

24 in a dispute with the SDS leadership at the time. I know that he was

25 ambitious in order to become a leading figure in the SDS. He had burning

1 ambition. But I would not really take this that seriously, that they were

2 breathless. I don't know what it was so great that we did. We were

3 criticised for some conduct about a certain meeting in Dubica, but I

4 really recall very little of this. And I don't remember them

5 congratulating us. That could be the precise answer. I don't remember

6 anybody congratulating us on anything during that period.

7 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I see it is 3.30. Is this the usual

8 time for the break?

9 JUDGE ORIE: No, we usually have one and a half hour until the

10 first break.

11 MR. HARMON: All right.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me just to add one

13 sentence, because I can see from -- I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm reading the

14 minutes. He says that Dukic lost control. It's true that there was a

15 conflict between Petar Jankovic and Dukic. And I'm remembering the

16 meeting now a little bit. The main discussion was between him and Dukic.

17 Dukic practically reported us as being undisciplined in the field, and

18 this is when there was a dispute between Dukic and this Petar Jankovic. I

19 apologise for adding this.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, would you please verify with the witness

21 that in the original that in my translation it says: "Ajkic is losing

22 control and having hysterics."

23 MR. HARMON:

24 Q. Mr. Deronjic, let me direct you to the entry on January the 15th,

25 1991. That should be on page 9 of the B/C/S version before you, and there

1 is a sentence that I read to you: "Karadzic and Krajisnik congratulated."

2 In the English translation in the next sentence, there is a name. It

3 starts the first sentence. It says the name "...is losing control and

4 having hysterics." Can you tell us what the name is in the B/C/S version

5 before you?

6 A. That is Mr. Rajko Dukic.

7 Q. Let me take you down to the next -- the two sentences later, the

8 sentence that starts with: "Our delegation reached a conclusion that it

9 was all..." Can you tell me the name that follows?

10 A. Dukic.

11 Q. All right. I've concluded with this document, Mr. Deronjic. Let

12 me take you to another part of your testimony.

13 One point during your cross-examination, Mr. Stewart identified

14 for you the positions that were -- that you were aware of that

15 Mr. Krajisnik held during the period of time between 1991 and 1993. And

16 you identified the following positions. You said he was the Speaker of

17 the BH Assembly, he was the Speaker of the Republika Srpska Assembly, he

18 had a membership in the Personnel Commission. And then you added that he

19 was also a member of the SDS Main Board. And that is the sum total of

20 your recollection when you gave that testimony.

21 Let me ask you, Mr. Deronjic, are you familiar with a body known

22 as the Supreme Command?

23 A. Yes, I know of a body called the Supreme Command. This body

24 existed in Republika Srpska.

25 Q. Did that body exist in the period of 1991 to 1992?

1 A. I don't know the dates from when until when it existed.

2 Q. Are you aware if Mr. Krajisnik was a member of that body?

3 A. Yes, I know. I know that at one point Mr. Krajisnik was a member

4 of that body. And thank you for reminding me, but I really wasn't able to

5 remember that. I didn't really have the opportunity to think about that.

6 But that is correct.

7 Q. Are you aware of a body known as the National Security Council?

8 A. I don't know if we're thinking of the same body. I think that

9 that is the council -- I'm not sure whether these are two different

10 bodies. Perhaps there were two different bodies. I always thought that

11 there was -- that was just the one.

12 Q. What knowledge do you have as to Mr. Krajisnik's membership in the

13 National Security Council? If you don't know, you don't know.

14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's a little bit difficult to see what

15 the witness is going to say since he has already answered a question in

16 relation to a body called the Supreme Command, and then expressly said

17 that he thought this one was the same body. So to be asked about

18 Mr. Krajisnik's membership of what Mr. Harmon is putting forward as

19 another body when the witness is not accepting and not saying that there

20 are two different bodies is really inappropriate.

21 MR. HARMON: I'm not sure, Your Honour, it's inappropriate. But

22 it's certainly -- I will withdraw the question. This is not an area that

23 is contested. This has been a -- this is an admitted fact that is before

24 this Tribunal. So I withdraw the question.

25 Q. Mr. Deronjic, are you aware of the existence of a body known as

1 the expanded presidency?

2 A. I heard of that body, but I don't know any details.

3 Q. Okay. Let me take you, then, to another area of your

4 cross-examination. And you were asked by Mr. Stewart, and you affirmed to

5 Mr. Stewart, that you had never heard Mr. Krajisnik express any racial

6 hatred toward anyone. Do you remember that testimony? Racial or

7 nationalistic hatred toward anyone, I think was the question. Is that

8 correct, isn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you ever express any racial or nationalistic hatred toward

11 anyone?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And nevertheless, according to your factual basis, you subscribed

14 to a policy of creating Serb-ethnic territories within Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina, and later to the use of force to remove non-Serbs from

16 Serb-designated territories --

17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, is Mr. Harmon cross-examining his

18 witness now, or is he re-examining his witness? Because, normally

19 speaking, we would suppose that cross-examining your own witness has to be

20 the subject of a special application.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.

22 MR. HARMON: I'm cross-examining your witness, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Cross-examining a witness, usually as far as I

24 understand, but I'm not raised in the common-law tradition, that if you

25 treat your own witness as someone that should be cross-examined on the

1 answers he has given on cross-examination by the other party that you --

2 whether you need leave for that, or that you at least announce that. But

3 announcement is made, and let me just confer with the other Judges.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: You may examine the witness as you did, Mr. Harmon.

6 I have to add to that, that the Chamber has noted that this is a subject,

7 at least a subject matter that has been dealt with in cross-examination by

8 the Defence. So this is not a -- this is not an opening for all subjects.

9 But on this issue.

10 MR. HARMON: I understand.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

12 MR. STEWART: May I simply -- I'm sorry, Your Honour. Of course

13 we accept that ruling. So far as the subject being dealt with in

14 cross-examination is concerned, the subject of statements by Mr. Krajisnik

15 was certainly raised in cross-examination. Of course, that's precisely

16 the point. The subject of statements made by this witness, such

17 statements is not in the least bit touched on in cross-examination.

18 JUDGE ORIE: But I think it's a matter of reliability and

19 credibility that is involved because if you have to judge upon -- if you

20 have to give information on ever something -- well, let's say if you would

21 consider that to be bad being said about another person, then your own

22 position might be of influence for the situation. So therefore,

23 Mr. Harmon is allowed to proceed.

24 MR. HARMON:

25 Q. Did you understand -- let me repeat my last question,

1 Mr. Deronjic. You, nevertheless, subscribed to a policy of creating

2 Serb-ethnic territories within Bosnia and Herzegovina, and later to the

3 use of force to remove non-Serbs from Serbian-designated territories.

4 That's correct, isn't it, Mr. Deronjic?

5 A. The answer is yes.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Deronjic, I want to go to another part of your testimony.

7 You referred to preparing maps for the Bratunac municipality with

8 different colours. Do you remember that testimony?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the different colours identified different ethnic groups

11 within your municipality. Can you identify for the Judges what colours

12 were used to designate which ethnic groups in the maps that you prepared.

13 A. Yes, we used blue to mark Serb territories and green to mark

14 Muslim territories.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I think this is repetitious. I even

16 remember that the witness said that there was no colour for Croats because

17 there were hardly any Croats. So please proceed.

18 MR. HARMON: Fine, that was only one question. I didn't remember

19 it. But I will pursue another line of questioning.

20 Q. Mr. Deronjic, you had a series of answers to one of Mr. Stewart's

21 questions in which you discussed the Serbs in their arguments emphasising

22 both historical arguments and landownership arguments. Do you remember

23 that testimony?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, the next exhibit, if I could have the next exhibit, please.

1 It is an exhibit that has a list --

2 MR. HARMON: Sorry.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number P62.

4 MR. HARMON: P62 could be distributed, then.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 MR. HARMON: I'm waiting for those copies to be distributed.

7 Q. Mr. Deronjic, before you is P62. Do you recognise that particular

8 document?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. What is represented by P62?

11 A. This is information about the arable lands in Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina, and the ownership of that land. We distinguish between three

13 categories of ownership: Serb ownership, Muslim ownership, and social

14 ownership which existed as a form of ownership in the earlier period.

15 Q. Did you assist in the preparation of this document?

16 A. I really don't remember the details. I said we made it. Probably

17 I helped in some way. I probably did help in the compilation of this

18 list.

19 Q. All right. And where were lists like this sent?

20 A. We passed all the information to the technical service in

21 Sarajevo, the technical section of the SDS. Everything was sent to the

22 party presidency.

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. HARMON: I notice it is a quarter to 4.00 now, Your Honour. I

25 have only a couple more questions after the break.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And perhaps the Bench might have some questions

2 as well.

3 We'll adjourn until five minutes past 4.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: May the witness be brought into the courtroom.

7 Please be seated, Mr. Deronjic.

8 Mr. Harmon, please proceed.

9 MR. HARMON:

10 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I only have one additional matter to cover with you.

11 And it deals with Variant A and Variant B. As you recall, that document

12 is -- bears the -- in the upper left-hand corner, the Main Board, and it's

13 dated the 19th of December 1991. If I could have the next exhibit shown

14 to the witness and given a number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit Number P63.

16 MR. HARMON: There should be a sufficient number of hard copies

17 for the Judges, if those could be distributed.

18 Q. Mr. Deronjic, P63, for your information, is a set of minutes of

19 the session of the Serb People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Assembly.

20 It is an Assembly session that was held on the 11th of December 1991,

21 eight days before the issuance of Variant A and Variant B. And I would

22 like to direct your attention to subpart 2 of that -- of those minutes,

23 the part that reads: "A draft recommended (decision) on setting up

24 municipal assemblies of the Serb People in BiH."

25 Do you find that section in the minutes before you? It should be

1 very early on in the document. Mr. Deronjic, I think it is on the page

2 that bears the ERN number in the lower right-hand corner of 00183447. If

3 you could read subpart 2 in its entirety; it's not long.

4 A. I've read it.

5 Q. If I can direct your attention, Mr. Deronjic, to the top of the

6 page bearing the ERN number 00183448, to the paragraph that reads -- it

7 should read as follows: "The Assembly --" and this, Your Honour, is found

8 on page 3 of the English translation, three paragraphs from the bottom,

9 reading from that particular paragraph: "The Assembly's President,

10 Momcilo Krajisnik, once again underlined the need to set up Serb

11 municipalities where the Serbs are a minority without any obligation to do

12 the same in all municipalities."

13 Mr. Deronjic, I invite your observations on that particular

14 paragraph, please.

15 A. Without any specific guideline, I don't think I can add anything

16 in particular. I know that this concerns Variant A and B, and one can see

17 that this was discussed. I have already indicated that these variants,

18 according to this document, envisaged Variant B, that is, the formation of

19 parallel Serb organs and municipalities as well. This was actually an

20 order to establish Serb municipalities, and I implemented this order in

21 Bratunac.

22 Q. Let me ask you, do you see any connection between this -- the

23 minutes of the Bosnian Serb Assembly session and Mr. Krajisnik's -- the

24 paragraph that I identified for you, and Variant A and Variant B, which

25 was issued eight days later?

1 A. Yes, absolutely. There is a connection. It can be seen clearly

2 from this. It means that this material was discussed at this session, and

3 that, among others, the Assembly's president, Mr. Krajisnik, also

4 discussed it.

5 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Deronjic. I've concluded my examination.

6 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

8 Judge Canivell has some questions for you.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE CANIVELL: I would like to ask you a few things.

11 First of all, you said that in a meeting at which you thought of

12 resigning, you were promised that an aspect that you saw in the

13 instructions you had received wouldn't be applied immediately. And that

14 made you reconsider your further decision. Where did they come, these

15 promises, from the highest personalities in the SDS, or from where that

16 these promises came?

17 A. Your Excellency, I have to apologise to you, but I think that the

18 interpretation that I received was not completely clear. I don't think

19 the -- your question has been interpreted in its entirety. So I should

20 like the interpreter to repeat it, please.

21 JUDGE CANIVELL: Does the interpreter need me to repeat what I

22 asked? Well, I will repeat it.

23 You said that you were promised that some of the measures that

24 were suggested to introduce in -- you remember the A and B alternatives

25 and first and second stage of this document, you received some promise

1 that some of these measures wouldn't be implemented immediately. And

2 that's why you decided to reconsider your -- the resignation you had

3 already tendered in your post in the staff in Bratunac. I would like to

4 know who made you these promises.

5 A. Thank you for your question, Your Excellency. I now fully

6 understand what you meant. I received these promises from the municipal

7 board of the SDS in Bratunac, from an official of this municipal board.

8 So I'm talking about the officials at the local level, that they would

9 allow me to implement this variant -- these Variants A and B in the way

10 that I suggested, which implied, which included talks with Muslims

11 regarding this particular issue and an agreement to be reached with them

12 concerning the partition of certain institutions. I insisted only that

13 the police station should be divided into the Muslim and the Serb police

14 station, which agreement was reached and was implemented at the level of

15 the Joint Assembly in Bratunac.

16 Formally speaking, two police stations were set up. However, they

17 continued to work together in the same building and undertook a number of

18 measures that had been agreed upon jointly with the leaders of these two

19 police stations. So this is one of the promises that I received. This is

20 how I wanted to proceed. This is how I thought this should be

21 implemented. And it was at that point that I retracted my resignation and

22 continued to implement this policy in this manner.

23 JUDGE CANIVELL: Thank you. I have another question. You have

24 mentioned at a certain point that rank and file members of the JNA were

25 multiethnic. But at what moment you are-- you were referring, for one

1 aspect? And besides, what proportion of ethnicities would be serving in

2 those JNA forces?

3 A. Let me try to answer your question as best as I could, Your

4 Excellency, although I am not the right person to provide such analyses.

5 In 1991, Muslims refused to be recruited into the JNA. In the

6 summer of 1991, they refused the JNA recruitment. Before that, it was the

7 Muslim population that was mostly being recruited and mobilised into the

8 JNA because they were the predominant population. However, I think that

9 after 1991, a very small number of Muslims remained in the JNA because

10 they had refused to serve in the JNA.

11 JUDGE CANIVELL: And finally -- thank you. Finally, you

12 explained, but I didn't understand completely well, that at a certain

13 moment, you said Serbs had more weapons than Muslims. But I don't know if

14 you were speaking in general or you were referring to in relation with the

15 number of Serbs and the number of Muslims, or what you really meant at

16 this moment? Do you remember the point? You had mentioned it while you

17 were being cross-examined by Mr. Stewart.

18 A. Yes, Your Excellency, I fully remember my testimony. I merely

19 wanted to show that both sides were arming themselves. My opinion is that

20 as far as the percentage is concerned and the ratio between the weapons

21 and the populations, Serbs did have more weapons. However, because of the

22 fact that Muslims were more numerous, one could say they had a large

23 quantity of weapons as well.

24 JUDGE CANIVELL: Okay. Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you.

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 [Interpretation] Witness, I should like to ask you a few questions

3 in order to ensure that I understood you properly and that I followed your

4 testimony properly. My first question is as follows: I'm interested in

5 what was mentioned at the very beginning of your testimony concerning a

6 certain number of inconsistencies in some of your statements. Could you

7 please very briefly inform me of the reason -- of the possible reason of

8 such inconsistencies? Is it because you were not able to remember

9 everything, or was it something else? I should like to hear from you what

10 you think is the reason of these inconsistencies in your statements,

11 please.

12 A. Your Excellency, when we talk about the previous statements given

13 to the Prosecutor, let me just remind you of the fact that it was in 1997

14 that I started giving statements to the Office of the Prosecutor. They

15 concerned mostly the events in Srebrenica. In a testimony here before

16 this Tribunal, I already indicated that I had not provided the whole truth

17 in some of those statements. I did tell the truth; however, not the whole

18 truth, concerning one of my conversations and meetings with Mr. Karadzic

19 because I believed that this could endanger me and my family. So this was

20 the reason why I had failed to mention this detail concerning this

21 conversation between me and Mr. Karadzic.

22 As for the remainder of the statements that I have given, I tried

23 as best as I could to be consistent. However, it is very difficult for me

24 to have full control over everything that I said, over all of the

25 descriptions of the events that I provided, especially when it comes to

1 the use of specific terms and specific wordings. It is possible for these

2 minor inconsistencies to have taken place because of the interpretation.

3 I understand that this is a rather difficult and complex process because

4 even for me it is very difficult to find the right word sometimes for what

5 I want to say. So I think that this could also be one of the reasons for

6 these inconsistencies. It was never my intention to improvise in any way,

7 and I believe I can support everything I said with adequate proof.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much. So if

9 I understand you correctly, you have just reassured us, and you have

10 confirmed that you have been telling the truth, that everything you have

11 told us is true and correct.

12 Let me move on to my second question concerning your intention to

13 offer your resignation at one point. You said, if I understand your

14 testimony correctly, that you had intended to resign because you did not

15 approve of the methods that had been envisaged.

16 A. Yes, that is more or less the essence of my motives.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] We have been provided with a

18 transcript -- rather, a report of the 22nd of July 1992 [as interpreted].

19 I will read it out to you because there may have been a mistake in

20 translation or interpretation. And I quote: [In English] "New option of

21 communist Yugoslavia."

22 [Interpretation] This seems to me to be a bit too removed from the

23 reasons that you offered for your resignation. The text does not reflect

24 this motive that you have given to us. I should like to hear your

25 comment, your answer to this.

1 A. Your Honour, let me first draw your attention to the fact that the

2 meeting lasted the entire day, and it was frequently interrupted with many

3 discussions and debates. This is just a brief report of the meeting. The

4 minutes were kept by a secretary of the party, not very educated man, and

5 he recorded what he thought had to be recorded.

6 As for the reasons of my resignation, I also believe that I

7 mentioned Variants A and B as well. I have to say that we, in Bratunac,

8 acted on my proposal and implemented this Variant A and B in a completely

9 modified manner. Otherwise I don't know why we would have acted the way

10 we did. But among other things, I also criticised the policy of

11 Milosevic, Karadzic, and Babic, I believe, was mentioned in this context

12 as well. Because I had had previous disagreements with these policies; in

13 particular, the policy of Mr. Milosevic. On that occasion, I expressed

14 the opinion that Mr. Milosevic was not working in the interest of the

15 Serbian people, and I also expressed my opinion that he had ideological

16 reasons to act the way he did, that he wanted to have a state which would

17 again be a communist state and so on and so forth. So it was a rather

18 long session, a rather long meeting which involved a number of discussions

19 and debates. And the person who took the minutes recorded only a small

20 portion thereof.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for your

22 explanation. Speaking of Variant A and B, let me draw your attention to a

23 question which was asked of you by the Prosecutor. You answered as

24 follows, and I quote your words: [In English] "One was to implement

25 measures to create Republika Srpska because Variant B implies the

1 establishment of parallel institutions at the municipal level. And when I

2 say 'parallel,' I mean purely Serbian as opposed to the institutions that

3 were in place at the time, whereas in Variant B it implied the association

4 and linkage of Serbian municipalities into one entity."

5 [Interpretation] At the beginning, you spoke only of the

6 Variant B, and then all of a sudden you say: "On the other hand, in

7 Variant A," which means that you either made a mistake or you wanted to

8 say Variant A at the beginning, and then Variant B as opposed to what you

9 had already indicated. Or maybe you wanted to say that it was only

10 Variant B which required two measures to be taken at the same time.

11 A. Your Honour, I think this is an unintentional contradiction. I

12 would actually like to modify this and say that this was implied in both

13 variants.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.

15 A. If you will allow me one additional sentence concerning the

16 meeting that we discussed a moment ago, because I just remembered

17 something. So with your permission, I should like to add just one more

18 sentence regarding measures A and B and the meeting at which I tendered my

19 resignation. May I?

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, please.

21 A. Your Honour, if you continue, I think you will be able to read a

22 comment which will enable you to understand the situation better. The

23 president of the Serbian Assembly in Bratunac and a member of the

24 municipal SDS, Ljubisav Simic, says: "If necessary, we will refuse the

25 orders of the presidency of the SDS, and we will not betray the people we

1 have so far led in the direction that we deemed to be the right one." And

2 because there are no other orders but the ones that we received, he was

3 obviously referring to those orders.

4 He even says at one point we're going to refuse to obey both

5 Sarajevo and Belgrade, and we will continue with the policy that we think

6 is adequate in light of the circumstances and the situation as it is in

7 Bratunac. This is what I wanted to add.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. When he spoke

9 of the instructions coming from Sarajevo, who exactly did he have in mind?

10 A. Mr. Ljubisav Simic, the president of the Serbian municipality in

11 Bratunac, and a member of the municipal board of the SDS in Bratunac, he

12 wanted to say that we would refuse these orders if they were not in

13 conformity with our needs and the circumstances of our situation. And he

14 referred to Variant A and B.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but who issued those orders?

16 A. We received the orders from the presidency of the party.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Let me move to a different topic

18 concerning the operation, or rather the events which took place in

19 Glogova. If I understand you correctly, you decided at one point to open

20 up a corridor between Bratunac and Kravica. You said: "We decided." Who

21 did you have in mind? Who took this decision?

22 A. Your Honour, I was referring to the Crisis Staff of the

23 municipality of Bratunac of which I was the president.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But were you prompted by

25 someone else? Did you receive directives or orders from someone else,

1 from elsewhere? Or was it you? Did you make that decision and were you

2 in charge of the implementation of that decision?

3 A. In order for you to better understand my testimony, I made this

4 decision on that night at the Crisis Staff without having received prior

5 directives to that effect. I, likewise, never asked any guidelines for

6 the implementation of this directive, save for the consultations that I

7 had had with Goran Zekic who was a member of the board and who was a

8 deputy in the Assembly. And also with this person who was a link with

9 Serbia and its state organs, Mr. Predrag Spasojevic.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] During the night, at one point

11 you just had an idea that night that you had to adopt this decision, and

12 you carried out that decision the next morning?

13 A. No, in the factual basis, Your Honour, and in my interview -- that

14 in late April, beginning of May, I had given this idea some thought and

15 that I had discussed it with Captain Reljic, who was the military officer

16 on the ground, and that we went on a reconnaissance visit to the village

17 of Magasici on the 7th. So I had prepared this action with the military,

18 but the actual decision to proceed with the operation was adopted at the

19 meeting of the Crisis Staff of the 8th of May.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But generally speaking, a

21 decision of such a significance, would it require consent or approval from

22 higher level?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] What higher level would that be?

25 What higher level of authority?

1 A. I think that at that point it would have been the republican

2 leadership, the top leadership of Republika Srpska.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Is it your opinion or your

4 conviction?

5 A. It is my conviction.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] When was this approval conveyed

7 to you, or this order? It was either an order or an approval, if I

8 understand your testimony correctly.

9 A. I received the approval from Mr. Zekic. He was the only

10 representative of the Serbs in the republican organs at the high level. I

11 asked him whether this was okay, and he said yes.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let me move to

13 another subject. If I understand you correctly, you went to Pale at one

14 point to give your report of the events that had taken place in Glogova.

15 You told us that General Mladic was among those who were present at this

16 meeting, and he wanted you to indicate on a map the exact location of the

17 village of Glogova. Now, if I understood your testimony correctly,

18 General Mladic was a military chief, and the fact that he requested you to

19 point the location of a village on a map seems to me a bit confusing. I

20 mean, it is difficult to understand that the military chief would not be

21 perfectly familiar with his area of responsibility. Didn't you think it

22 strange? Were you not surprised by his question?

23 A. No, Your Honour. Let me explain. General Mladic became chief of

24 staff of the VRS on the 15th of May. This meeting took place either on

25 the 10th or the 11th of May. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the exact

1 date. And I thought, and this is what I already explained, that this was

2 the first time that General Mladic was being briefed about the situation

3 in Bosnia. And that was the reason why all presidents of the Crisis Staff

4 or presidents of the municipal board had been invited to the meeting. The

5 idea was for them to brief General Mladic about the situation on the

6 ground. That was my understanding of the purpose of the meeting, and I

7 think that at that moment he was not at all familiar with the situation in

8 Bosnia.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Not only that he was not familiar

10 with the situation in Bosnia, but you're now telling us that he at that

11 point was not yet appointed to the post of the chief of staff of the

12 military. So in what capacity was he present at this meeting?

13 A. Your Excellency, I arrived late to this meeting, and nobody

14 introduced General Mladic to me. I knew him from the media. I knew who

15 he was. I think that he was there in the capacity of a person who in two

16 or three days would take over command of the Army of Republika Srpska

17 because on the 15th of May, he was named as the commander-in-chief of

18 the VRS.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But I think you will agree with

20 me that he was a career military officer.

21 A. Absolutely.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You also told us that Mr. Djeric

23 had had a different reaction compared to the one that you received at

24 Pale. Could you explain to me in two or three words who he was, what

25 function he had, and what power he actually wielded.

1 A. Mr. Djeric was the prime minister of Republika Srpska in its first

2 composition. And according to my belief, he didn't have too much

3 influence.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Don't you think that he acted on

5 the basis of the information that you had provided to him?

6 A. I don't know what you're thinking of exactly. Perhaps the

7 question wasn't interpreted correctly. I apologise.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, no, I haven't phrased it

9 properly. You provided him with a piece of very important information,

10 and he reacted in a way which demonstrated his dissatisfaction. Don't you

11 think -- didn't you think at that point that he would react on that, that

12 he would act upon it, that he would see other people, other individuals

13 who might have a certain influence on the situation?

14 A. I didn't hear that. Mr. Djeric wrote down what I said in his work

15 diary. He made no comment other than being angry. He was asking

16 angrily, "Who ordered you that? Why did you do that?" That's the way he

17 was doing it. I said that the war in all the neighbouring municipalities

18 was such that this was also spreading to Bratunac, so I also did something

19 which I believed I should do. And he wrote that down. He didn't say

20 anything.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Were you alone during that

22 conversation.

23 A. No, no, Your Excellency. At each of the meetings, I was

24 accompanied by the driver who brought me to the meetings. He entered with

25 me to the first and the second meeting. On our way back to Bratunac, and

1 I said his name before, so on our way back to Bratunac we commented on

2 this difference in the positions and in the reactions.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] This brings me to my last topic

4 which concerns the issue of volunteers. You testified about the

5 volunteers who were present in Bratunac. I have a few questions in

6 relation to that.

7 To your knowledge, who was paying for them? Where were they

8 accommodated? And who paid for their expenses?

9 A. Your Excellency, the first group did not live in Bratunac, to

10 clarify that immediately. The second group who arrived lived in various

11 places in Bratunac and in abandoned Muslims houses. I don't know about

12 the financing. I don't think anybody financed them. They financed

13 themselves. They were mostly criminals who really did a lot of looting in

14 that period. So I assume that's how they financed themselves. I also

15 think that there must have been some way that they were financed through

16 Serbia, from where they came. But I don't know anything about that.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Concerning inhumane treatment and

18 the fate of the detainees, are you aware of any incident in which the

19 responsible persons were tried for what they had done or simply

20 questioned?

21 A. I don't know of any case of anyone being questioned or put on

22 trial.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

24 Thank you, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Deronjic, I've got a few questions for you as

1 well. First questions relate again to the meeting where your resignation

2 has been the subject of discussion. First of all, for the record, I saw

3 that in English the question put in French by Judge El Mahdi refers to a

4 meeting of the 22nd of July, where I think it's the meeting of 22nd of

5 January. But in the transcript, it appears as the 22nd of July. Do we

6 agree, Mr. Deronjic, that when you answered the question of Mr. -- of

7 Judge El Mahdi, that you're referring to the 22nd of January meeting?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Also, there was a short quotation of the minutes of

10 that meeting which is not fully complete, so I'd like to have that on

11 record as well because the minutes read, where it comes to the option of a

12 communist Yugoslavia, the full sentence reads: "I will rather accept the

13 sovereign Bosnia than some new option of communist Yugoslavia." That's

14 the full sentence read.

15 Now, you answered about the minutes that were made by the

16 secretary of the municipal board, a not-well-educated man. Can you tell

17 us what the name of this person was?

18 A. The gentleman's name is Milenko Katanic.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And then you told us that this was not an educated

20 person, but did you see these minutes, and did you ever correct them or

21 made a note that they were not complete?

22 A. The answer for the first question is that I saw the minutes and I

23 signed them. I made no corrections, because I believed that it reflected

24 the essence. I did not really pay attention to the details. We did not

25 correct any minutes. We didn't have the possibility of writing everything

1 down. It was impossible to do that.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The minutes of this meeting themselves say that

3 it was Mirna Nikolic who took the minutes. What's your comment to that?

4 A. I know that there were two secretaries in the municipal board.

5 Ms. Mirna Nikolic and Mr. Milenko Katanic. I thought that they were taken

6 by Milenko Katanic, but Ms. Mirna Nikolic is a party secretary. I don't

7 think that she even has a high-school education, but she is about there.

8 JUDGE ORIE: She is not a well-educated man either, is she?

9 A. Well, I wouldn't dare to say that she was not educated, but I

10 think she is able to note down everything that is stated at a meeting like

11 that. You must take into account that sometimes those meetings of ours

12 were such that discussions overlapped, and this was all part of a regular

13 procedure.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The only thing I'm making clear to you,

15 Mr. Deronjic, that you explained the quality of the minutes taken by

16 referring to a man, not well educated. And from your answer now, I

17 understand that it's a woman, and you certainly did not have that person

18 in mind when you answered one of my -- the previous questions. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You also told us that, this was only the essence,

22 because it had been -- and let me try to read it literally.

23 You said: "Your Honour, let me first draw your attention to the

24 fact that the meeting lasted the entire day, and it was frequently

25 interrupted with many discussions and debates." At what time did the

1 meeting start, Mr. Deronjic?

2 A. I really cannot remember these details, Your Honour. My memory is

3 not such that --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could Mr. Deronjic be provided with the minute book.

5 Would you, Mr. Deronjic, please find for me the meeting of the

6 22nd of January 1992.

7 A. Yes, I've found it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you find any indication as to the time when this

9 meeting started?

10 A. Yes. It states here that the meeting began at 1700 hours, which

11 means that it's in the afternoon. And I notice that I did not say how

12 long it lasted correctly. It started in the afternoon, but then it

13 probably went on late into the night. I think that's the only thing that

14 I can add.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'll come back to the issue discussed in

16 this meeting, and that is that you indicated that if there would be --

17 that Mr. Karadzic, Dukic, and Koljevic should come to Bratunac where they

18 will clearly state what the national programme is and what the bottom

19 limit is. Otherwise, it reads: "I'd rather hand in my resignation than

20 betray myself."

21 Could you tell us, what was unclear to you and what needed further

22 explanation by Mr. Karadzic or one of the other persons mentioned?

23 A. Yes, I can tell you. I must say that the meeting mostly dealt

24 with the issue of relationships with Milosevic and the policy regarding

25 that. That was the central issue at the meeting. I did not want to

1 participate in something that was not quite clear to me. Did that mean

2 that the policy in Bosnia was created by Milosevic or by us? And if --

3 and whether the measures that we were implementing were something that we

4 approved at top-party levels, or was it something that we did not even

5 review or adopt?

6 For example, it was quite clear that the programme of the Serbian

7 Democratic Party was abandoned, and I think in one sentence here I

8 say: "There is no Yugoslavia any more; there are no longer six

9 republics." And that was our programme. And what I wanted to say was

10 what was our programme now, it wasn't clear, at least to me and to the

11 people in Bratunac where all of this would lead, where this new policy

12 that was being created would lead.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, was there any doubt in your mind as to whether

14 the Muslims had to leave their villages and the area they were living in?

15 A. At that point, I didn't have any idea that they were supposed to

16 leave the Bratunac municipality.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So when you said that you might resign, it was

18 mainly about future policy in the, may I call it, inter-Serbian

19 relationship, that is Republika Srpska, at least, and the -- well, let me

20 say Belgrade and Pale. That was your concern when you considered to

21 resign if you didn't get any further explanation. Is that a correct

22 understanding of your testimony?

23 A. Yes, that was one of the reasons why I wanted to submit my

24 resignation.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 Now, in your testimony you answered to a question of Mr. Stewart

2 that on point 6 of stage 1 of the B plan, which is "set up secret storage

3 places and depots in local communities or populated places with a majority

4 Serbian population for the storage of foodstuffs, et cetera." I think you

5 were asked whether this was implemented or not, and I think that you

6 answered that question by saying that you'd rather wait and keep the money

7 apart so that you could buy the foodstuff whenever that would be needed.

8 Were, finally, these food storages created, or were they not?

9 A. No, Your Honour. That was a recommendation which was not

10 implemented.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It was never implemented?

12 A. I don't know of anything other than it was a recommendation for

13 this to be done.

14 JUDGE ORIE: But you were never involved in implementing the

15 creation of food storages?

16 A. No, I don't remember that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: May I then ask you to look at the same document you

18 have in front of you. I have to find it on my computer. One second.

19 The minutes, but now not on the 22nd of January but the next

20 meeting. Could you indicate to us when the next meeting was held?

21 A. I don't know. I can check here. But I really don't remember all

22 of the meetings.

23 JUDGE ORIE: No, please find the next one after the 22nd of

24 January.

25 A. Yes, the 24th of February 1992.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Deronjic.

2 Could I please ask you to read the last line of

3 paragraph 4, "Other business." As a matter of fact, I'll read it for you.

4 Three lines before, it's about Mr. Deronjic suggesting a few things. And

5 then the last line reads: "He added that as much food as possible should

6 be stored in exclusively Serb areas." That sounds very much as food

7 storage in which you just testified that you never implemented any food

8 storage programme. Could you please comment on this part of the minutes.

9 A. Your Honour, I said that this was a recommendation which we

10 received in the materials, and I conveyed the recommendation. Your

11 question is if I knew whether such food depots were created, and I said

12 that I didn't know anything about it. And I said that they were not.

13 When you asked me whether I took part in the creation of these food

14 depots, I practically did not do anything in order to create such food

15 depots. But I did say at the municipal board that people should take care

16 that there are food reserves at all of the various territories, but I

17 don't think that anything was actually undertaken in this regard.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Does it say any of the various territories, or

19 exclusively on Serbian territory?

20 A. Here, it states: "Exclusively Serb territories."

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In your answer, you said various territories.

22 Is that -- is it wrong in the minutes, or is it -- or was your answer a

23 mistake?

24 A. Probably in what I said.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So do I understand your testimony well? That you say

1 that you have drawn the attention that as much food as possible should be

2 stored in exclusively Serb areas, and that this has got nothing to do with

3 food storage that was recommended to you?

4 A. I apologise. I'm thinking that there is a major misunderstanding

5 here. It's possible that you received a wrong interpretation. It

6 absolutely has to do with what we were suggested or ordered to do. And

7 I'm just saying, Your Excellency, that I did not concretise the proposal

8 in the sense that we made food reserves, or I don't know anything about

9 that. I don't know if food was really concentrated and taken somewhere.

10 I don't know about it. I don't know how we could have put it all together

11 and taken it to some territory.

12 As far as these measures are concerned, I proposed that something

13 like that should be done. If people had money, they should make their own

14 reserves, if that was possible for them.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take you to a different matter. You have

16 testified about de-arming villages. I then asked you the question whether

17 also Serbs were de-armed in those villages. And your answer was, and I'm

18 now summarising, that these were exclusively Muslim villages. I did put

19 the question to you in relation to the village of Podcaus, which is at the

20 southeastern outskirts of Bratunac. Was that an exclusively Muslim

21 village?

22 A. Your Honour, it's very difficult for me to give you a precise

23 answer because I don't know what that region includes. I know that that

24 region to a vast degree is Muslim. I don't know if it's completely

25 Muslim. I don't know to this day. Perhaps there is the odd Serb house

1 there or perhaps some of the outlying settlements are mixed. But for the

2 most part, the majority part, it is Muslim.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps have the map - I haven't got a

4 number here - the map of Bratunac in front of the witness.

5 Yes, could it perhaps be put on the ELMO, if possible. Perhaps

6 you could turn a bit, Mr. Deronjic, to the machine to the right of you.

7 Could you just indicate to us what you consider to be Podcaus. Perhaps

8 with the pointer.

9 Yes, your finger is good as well. We see it just south of the

10 word "Bratunac."

11 A. [Indicates]

12 JUDGE ORIE: To where? When you were talking about de-arming

13 Podcaus, what area did you have in mind? A larger area?

14 A. [Indicates]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, for example, go to the east and see where

16 it would stop.

17 A. I'm sorry, let me just find the east, the eastern part. Yes, here

18 it is. The area of Podcaus is connected with the area -- with the suburb

19 of Bratunac, Djanici, which is a Muslim area. Then there is the high

20 point, the high ground, Caus, the highest elevation in the Municipality of

21 Bratunac.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please point that out so that we can see

23 it, with a pointer or a pen.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do see it. I didn't see when you pointed

1 where would be the eastern boundary of what you considered to be Podcaus.

2 That would go until where, up until where?

3 A. Here, I think. There is a Roma settlement cause Rakovac, but

4 there are also Serb houses there, as well as a few Muslim houses.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, my question: Were Serbs also de-armed in

6 Podcaus?

7 A. No.

8 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer is now a bit different from what you

9 said earlier when I asked: "Were Serbs disarmed in such villages?" You

10 didn't say they were not. Your answer at that time was that you referred

11 to villages that were exclusively Muslim. Isn't that true?

12 A. I don't see the difference. I indicated yesterday that Serb

13 villages had not been disarmed.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I asked whether Serbs in villages that were disarmed

15 were also disarmed in those villages. But it's not of vital importance

16 whether you see the difference. But do you agree with me that your answer

17 now in respect at least of Podcaus is a different answer to what your

18 answer was on my earlier question whether in disarming villages, Serbs

19 were also disarmed?

20 A. I don't precisely remember the answer that I gave.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'm not going to insist that you answer my

22 last question.

23 I'll turn to a totally different subject, your visit to Bajina

24 Basta. Do you remember that you testified that you were invited by

25 Mr. Zekic to go there. What was the reason to go there?

1 A. Mr. Zekic sent me a message through a person who visited me at

2 home, Mr. Milorad Popovic, a member of the Bratunac SDS. He said that

3 Mr. Zekic had left me a message, that he had gone to Bajina Basta, and

4 that I should get there as well because there was a meeting to be held in

5 the building of the Territorial Defence of Bajina Basta. I took a vehicle

6 from the power distribution company in Bratunac and went to Bajina Basta.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so the meeting was the reason why you went

8 there. You saw that the same kind of troops or men that later came to

9 Bratunac came over a bridge into Bajina Basta. Is that -- did I correctly

10 understand that?

11 A. No. These men went to Skelani on the Bosnian side. So they went

12 from Bajina Basta, which is in Serbia, to Skelani.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, came from Serbia, and they came over the bridge.

14 I take it the bridge over the Drina River. Is that a correct

15 understanding?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you were told at that time that you could

18 expect them to come to Bratunac as well. Is that a correct understanding?

19 A. I don't remember using these words.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I'll check it for you over the break. One of the

21 problems is that I have only partial access to my LiveNote in this

22 courtroom because part of the testimony was given in another courtroom.

23 You said that the same type of men appeared in Bratunac, but you

24 didn't know where they came from or you didn't know who they were? Do you

25 remember that you were asked about who they were, who came to Bratunac?

1 A. Yes, I remember that.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat your answer to that question. Yes.

3 A. Your Honour, this is the question that I was asked when Muslims

4 asked me whether I could give them my guarantee. I couldn't because I

5 didn't know those people. I could only make assumptions as to who they

6 were. No one told me at the meeting who it was who had sent them, nor did

7 they identify themselves. I mean, at the meeting at the Fontana Hotel.

8 Goran Zekic only briefly introduced these people to me, and he said that

9 the topic of the discussion was Srebrenica, that they had issued an

10 ultimatum to the Muslims in Bratunac to abandon power. I didn't know who

11 those people were; I didn't know who had sent them. I knew only that they

12 had arrived with Goran Zekic.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And when you were in that meeting a couple of

14 days before when you saw these people for the first time, you didn't

15 ask, "Who are they"?

16 A. Yes, I did. And Zekic told me that they were volunteers who were

17 supposed to enter Srebrenica.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Anything further than volunteers, or...

19 A. Just what he told me. He made a joke that they had been brought

20 by Jokic and made some comments to that effect. But they were about to

21 leave for Skelani. I stayed in this office briefly, and Zekic and I

22 continued talking for about a minute or two when we got to Skelani. I

23 immediately went back to Bratunac, thinking that I would soon have an

24 opportunity to meet with Zekic again and bring up the issue.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And did you have such an opportunity?

1 A. It was on the 5th of May that I first had opportunity to discuss

2 the issue directly with him.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Was that before these people came to Bratunac or

4 after?

5 A. After their arrival.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So even when they arrived in Bratunac, did you ask

7 Mr. Zekic again who they were, apart from just being volunteers?

8 A. No. The meeting was a rather unusual one. No one told me that we

9 had a meeting that day. I received the information to come to the

10 meeting, but we discussed some issues very briefly, and then I immediately

11 went back to the police station to discuss further with the Muslims. But

12 they soon arrived and then immediately left for Srebrenica. And I never

13 saw Zekic again because he went with them.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, my question was whether you further asked him.

15 You gave a long answer but... Could I understand the answer to be no?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... My question

18 was whether you asked Mr. Zekic again who they were. And I do now

19 understand that your answer was no.

20 Now, about you expecting these people to come to Bratunac as well,

21 could you -- you said you had no expectation or no one presented you any

22 perspective in that direction. Or could you tell us a bit more about how

23 surprised you were when these people came to Bratunac.

24 A. Your Honour, I was totally surprised because no one had told me.

25 Of course, I could assume that Bratunac would be visited by someone

1 because such things were happening in my surroundings everywhere. But

2 I -- and I simply couldn't conclude on the basis of anything that Bratunac

3 would be bypassed and that such a group would not appear in Bratunac.

4 However, I was surprised because no one had told me that someone would

5 come to Bratunac on the 17th, the 17th of April.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well that you say, "I was

7 surprised although I expected it to happen"?

8 A. Precisely. I thought that a thing like that could happen, but I

9 didn't know who would that be, when they would arrive, and I also thought

10 that if this should happen I should be informed by someone about their

11 arrival, that I would be told in advance as to what their mission would be

12 in the town.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I've got no problems in accepting that you thought

14 that it could happen. My question was whether you expected it to happen

15 and when you had any idea of whether that would be after you-- whether

16 that would come soon or late or a month or a week or -- I mean, what

17 actually was in your mind apart from that something could happen?

18 A. Your Excellency, your question commands a longer answer, due to

19 the complexity of the situation in Bratunac and my attitude to the policy

20 coming from Serbia, which is something that I could discuss here for

21 days --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. I'm not asking what was the

23 basis for what you thought to be possible or what you expected; I'm asking

24 you, did you just consider it possible that they could come or did you

25 expect them to come? And if you thought it would be possible or if you

1 expected them to come, would that be soon or late or whatever did you have

2 in mind at that moment when you returned from your meeting with Zekic when

3 you for the first time saw those people? What was on your mind as to what

4 Bratunac might experience in the future in this respect?

5 A. My thinking at that time was that for some mysterious reason

6 Bratunac was being bypassed, starting from Bijeljina and moving further

7 south, you have the events in Zvornik, and then nothing happens in

8 Bratunac. And all of a sudden, you have these people appearing in

9 Srebrenica. And I thought maybe they would not come to Bratunac at all,

10 that Srebrenica was a strategically more interesting municipality and that

11 similar things would happen there as in Bijeljina and Zvornik. However, I

12 was not ruling out the possibility that someone would come to Bratunac as

13 well.

14 JUDGE ORIE: To summarise, you didn't think it impossible that

15 they would come, but you did not consider it likely or very likely. You

16 didn't expect them to come. Is that a correct understanding of your

17 answer?

18 A. It's really a nuance, a minor difference. I don't want to make a

19 mistake. I was expecting an event of that kind to take place, but I was

20 not sure that it would indeed happen and in the manner that it eventually

21 did happen.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the 16th of February, your testimony

23 was: "When I came back to Bratunac, I expected that Bratunac would soon

24 also be caught up in the same problems and that some unit would also

25 appear there."

1 A. Yes, I never excluded that possibility. That is correct.

2 JUDGE ORIE: When did you first find out how many people were

3 killed in the Glogova attack?

4 A. I never learned the exact number of the people who were killed in

5 Glogova --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please continue your answer.

7 A. Information about the possibility of there having been killings in

8 Glogova, after the funeral of Zekic, someone did mention that people had

9 been murdered in Glogova. However, this person - I cannot remember who it

10 was - was not certain about it. In the course of the several following

11 days, I'm sure I did not have any opportunity to become acquainted with

12 this. I was describing the -- I have described for you the events that

13 took place on the 10th, 11th, and the 12th. Those were very dramatic

14 days.

15 Later, after that period, different information reached me about

16 the events in Glogova. At one point I heard that there had been killings,

17 and then again this would be denied. It is difficult for me to tell you

18 precisely when it was that I learned that killings had taken place. After

19 the war, or rather during the war, I had the opportunity to read a book

20 whose author is a man from Bratunac, and he mentioned in this book that a

21 certain number of people had been killed in Glogova. The author of the

22 book I'm talking about is Mr. Masic, a teacher from Bratunac. After the

23 war, all my attempts to learn more about it were to no avail. It was

24 impossible for me to learn what exactly had happened in Glogova.

25 Some inquiry was done by my lawyers in the course of the

1 preparation of my Defence, and then we learned that, yes, there had

2 been -- that there were killings, and we even discovered the location

3 where it happened. This was all done pursuant to my request because we

4 wanted to establish the truth and find out how many people had been killed

5 in Glogova. However, we were not able to get any firm proof, and I

6 accepted the allegation of the Prosecutor -- the case of the Prosecutor.

7 Whether this is the exact number, I don't know, but I have no reason to

8 doubt what they think happened there.

9 JUDGE ORIE: When for the first time you accepted that a large

10 number of people were killed in Glogova? And when I'm talking about a

11 large number of people, that's in the -- over 40, let's say it that way.

12 So I'm not asking about any specific knowledge of whether there was 65 or

13 68 or 62. When did you accept and believe for the first time that a

14 larger number of people were killed in Glogova?

15 A. Here, Your Honour, when I was faced with the facts as they were

16 pleaded in the indictment and after we carried out some additional

17 investigation into that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 Mr. Deronjic, let me just see whether I have any more questions

20 for you.

21 Yes, one final question for you. The preparation for the attack

22 on Glogova as far as logistics were concerned, was that prepared prior to

23 the decision taken or was it organised all on the same evening?

24 A. It was prepared before. The army carried out the preparations.

25 We just gave our approval at the meeting.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And they were already in position?

2 A. No. However, the deployment and participation of the units was

3 already known. So right after the meeting, I went to see the unit which

4 had already been lined up in front of the town hall.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answers.

6 We'll have a break now because it's already one hour and a half.

7 Would there be any need to ask further questions to Mr. Deronjic on the

8 basis of the questions put by the Bench?

9 Mr. Harmon.

10 MR. HARMON: Not on behalf of the Prosecution.

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I understood that we normally would be

12 given an opportunity to ask any questions that arise out of the

13 Prosecution's questions.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if there is some really urgent question.

15 Usually there is after cross-examination, but if it directly arises out of

16 the Prosecution's questions and re-examination, then I would not stop you

17 from putting a question to the witness. But did you have many in mind

18 or...

19 MR. STEWART: No. No, Your Honour, I didn't. I mean, they're

20 only urgent in the sense that if I don't ask them while Mr. Deronjic is

21 here, then there's not much point.

22 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would it take? Should we do it after

23 the break or -- I know that the interpreters and the technicians urgently

24 need a break.

25 MR. STEWART: Probably no more than two or three minutes, Your

1 Honour, if I risk saying that.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're referring to unexpected again.

3 Mr. Harmon.

4 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. I'm just trying to anticipate the

5 remainder of the agenda for today. Does the Court, after Mr. Stewart, --

6 if we come back and Mr. Stewart asks some additional questions, does the

7 Court intend to ask additional questions? The reason I raise that it

8 because it will take us approximately 25 minutes or 30 minutes to set up

9 for the next witness we have.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we would have a bit of a longer break - and

11 I'm now looking to the interpreters and the technicians - would you allow

12 for another three minutes, apart from the unexpected?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I get a positive response from the booth. So please

15 proceed, Mr. Stewart.

16 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stewart:

17 Q. Mr. Deronjic, you had a reference to the National Security Council

18 that came up in the questions from Mr. Harmon this afternoon. Did you

19 ever receive any sort of letter or order or written communication of any

20 sort from the National Security Council?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Or any oral instruction or order?

23 A. No, I don't remember any such thing.

24 Q. So far as the Supreme Command was concerned, you heard a mention

25 from Mr. Harmon as well of Supreme Command. If I suggest to you that that

1 was -- that that was an advisory body, do you know anything at all about

2 that?

3 A. No, I really don't know anything about the work of such an organ.

4 I'm aware of its existence, but I don't know anything about its work.

5 Q. And if I suggest to you that Mr. Krajisnik was a member of the

6 Supreme Command from the 31st of December 1992, is that something you can

7 accept, reject, or simply have no knowledge of?

8 A. No, I don't know anything about it.

9 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. That -- I think that was

10 within the three minutes maybe.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it certainly was.

12 Mr. Harmon.

13 MR. HARMON: I don't want to stimulate a protracted question and

14 answer. But if I could show the witness Prosecution Exhibit 56 to refresh

15 his recollection in respect of one of the questions -- specific questions

16 that was asked by Mr. Stewart, I can elicit a single answer from him. Or

17 I can do it after the break, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

19 Further re-examination by Mr. Harmon:

20 Q. Mr. Deronjic, you were asked whether you had ever received any

21 sort of letter or order or written communication of any sort from the

22 National Security Council. And let me direct you to Prosecution

23 Exhibit 56 which you should have in front of you. And I direct your

24 attention to the first paragraph in that order which is dated the 1st of

25 May 1992. Do you see a reference in that first paragraph to the National

1 Security Council?

2 A. The National Defence -- excuse me, National Security Council.

3 Q. Do you see that reference?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 MR. HARMON:

6 Q. Do you see that reference in Prosecution Exhibit 56?

7 A. Yes, that is correct. So, yeah, there has been a mistake. I was

8 not aware of which particular body sent this. When we discussed this

9 decision, I didn't pay attention to that.

10 MR. HARMON: No further questions. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

12 Mr. Deronjic, this concludes your testimony in this Court. Very

13 often I have to say that I thank witnesses for coming from a long

14 distance. In your case, I think I could just leave it to thanking you for

15 coming and giving evidence in this Court.

16 Mr. Deronjic may be escorted out of the courtroom.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then just a few technical matters for the parties. I

19 see that no Defence exhibits have been tendered during the

20 cross-examination of Mr. Deronjic, and that the Prosecution tendered

21 Exhibits P33 up to P63. And since no objections were made and since I do

22 not hear any objections at this very moment, they are admitted into

23 evidence.

24 Then finally, I'd like to indicate to the parties, and also to the

25 Registry, that next Monday, and I do understand that the parties have been

1 consulted about it, that next Monday we'll sit in the afternoon and it

2 will be Courtroom III.

3 We'll now adjourn until a quarter past 6.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 6.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I see that the composition of the Prosecution team

7 has changed. Mr. Tieger, could you please.

8 MR. TIEGER: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. I'm

9 Alan Tieger. I appear with Mr. Timothy Resch.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger. We have been provided with

11 four binders as it stands now for the next witness. I do understand that

12 there are a lot more to be expected, and apart from that, that we have

13 binders for footnotes as well which we would not start to learn by heart

14 today. And finally, that there are also a similar number of binders for

15 the original B/C/S version.

16 I do understand that Madam Registrar has a -- has developed a

17 system of numbering these exhibits, and I also do understand that a final

18 number cannot be yet assigned to all the documents because we need the

19 overview of all of it. It's a complex, logistical exercise. Let's start

20 and see where we get stuck, hopefully not at all. Yes.

21 Any questions by the parties as far as the system of numbering is

22 concerned? If not, perhaps, Madam Registrar, a few words on how it works.

23 [Trial Chamber and the Registrar confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: I see that each binder will have a number and each

25 binder will contain a certain number of tabs. And since we do not know

1 exactly how many tabs fit into the binder, the final numbering will be

2 done at the end, but the exhibits will be stored in these binders in

3 accordance with their presentation. Is that a correct understanding?

4 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I had a bit of difficulty

5 hearing the last portion of the Court's comments.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I said that the exhibits will be stored in these

7 binders in the subsequent order corresponding with their presentation in

8 the courtroom.

9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. And if I may, as long as we're on

10 the subject of logistics in what the Court correctly characterised as a

11 fairly complex logistical exercise, we have also prepared the exhibits in

12 electronic form to be presented in the Sanction mode. In that connection,

13 I should mention that we have been apprised of some of the difficulties

14 that the Court encountered previously. We have made an effort to address

15 and remedy those problems. Whether or not they will be wholly

16 satisfactory, of course, remains to be seen. But I'm optimistic and

17 hopeful that the Sanction presentation will be of greater benefit to the

18 Chamber than it was previously.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber hopes that it's not necessary to go

20 collectively to the ophthalmologist, I think you call it, because we

21 couldn't just see it.

22 Yes, Mr. Stewart.

23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I just say. There are two things

24 actually. I wonder, perhaps I'm just being thick, but I'm just trying to

25 understand. Your Honour says the final numbering will be done at the

1 end. Does Your Honour mean the exhibit numbering or what?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because it will be double numbering. One for

3 the binder, the next one for the tab. But if we do not know exactly at

4 what number we stop, I mean how many -- I mean, a document could be

5 binder 2, number 14. But if it doesn't fit in, it will be binder 3,

6 number 1.

7 MR. STEWART: Oh, it's -- I understand that, Your Honour. That's

8 what I was having difficulty with. I quite see why the binder and tab

9 numbering might have to wait until the end. But they are going to get

10 their P, though, number immediately.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry. That was what I didn't understand. May

13 I simply make this observation as well: The Defence team in all sorts of

14 ways as Your Honour will know since we -- both counsel are new to this

15 Tribunal, we have been on a learning curve about all sorts of practical

16 matters effecting how the Tribunal works, and Your Honour has been very

17 patient with us as we climb up that learning curve.

18 As far as Sanction is concerned, we are absolutely at the very

19 bottom and beginning of that curve. Because although we know about it, we

20 very assiduously went to a lecture and presentation about it before

21 Christmas. But we have had no training, no experience, we know nothing

22 about it, we know nothing about how it works. I simply make that clear,

23 because if that is going to be a handicap to the Tribunal or to us, then,

24 we'll have to take an opportunity to find out about it. But we know

25 nothing really.

1 JUDGE ORIE: From what I understand, the Prosecution is presenting

2 it computerwise in Sanction, and we had some difficulties in properly

3 looking at it on our screens. Is Sanction available for the Defence? I

4 take it it is. So therefore -- yes.

5 MR. TIEGER: My understanding, Your Honour, is that it is used by

6 the Defence, for example, in the Brdjanin case.

7 MR. STEWART: That's fine, Your Honour, except that we are not the

8 Defence in the Brdjanin case. We don't have it. So is it something --

9 are we going to be given a --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Is the license available? I think, as a matter of

11 fact, Madam Registrar is writing some useful information, as she always

12 does. Let me be wise and wait for it.

13 Yes, if you contact OLAD or Ms. Philpott, the Registrar, then

14 you'll learn more about how available it is, how to use it -- well,

15 whatever information you'd like to have, you can get it from OLAD and the

16 Registry.

17 MR. STEWART: Thanks, Your Honour. And I hope that money doesn't

18 have to change hands.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's... I do understand your hope.

20 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to call your next witness, which I do

21 understand will be Mr. Treanor.

22 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Treanor into

24 the courtroom.

25 [The witness entered court]

1 JUDGE ORIE: Good evening, because it's already after 6.00,

2 Mr. Treanor, I assume. Mr. Treanor, before giving evidence in this Court,

3 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

4 declaration. The text is handed out to you now by the usher. May I

5 invite you to make that solemn declaration.

6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

7 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated, Mr. Treanor.

9 I noticed that you'd prefer not to have headphones. May I take it

10 that you could follow whatever language is spoken in this Court, that

11 would mean French, English, and/or B/C/S?

12 THE WITNESS: Well, I can certainly follow the English, and I can

13 more or less follow the B/C/S. If there's going to be B/C/S, I'll

14 probably use the headphones.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And French?

16 THE WITNESS: No.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi usually speaks French, so if he

18 speaks, would you please put on your headphones because otherwise you'll

19 miss what he says.

20 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 WITNESS: PATRICK TREANOR

23 Examined by Mr. Tieger:

24 Q. Good evening, Mr. Treanor.

25 A. Good evening.

1 Q. I'd like to begin by reciting quickly some of your academic and

2 professional background, I hope accurately, and I trust you will correct

3 me if I'm in error in any respect.

4 You were -- you received a bachelor of arts in modern languages

5 from the College of Holy Cross in Massachusetts in the United States, a

6 masters degree in Russian and Eastern European studies from Yale

7 University, and a doctor of philosophy from the School of Slavonic and

8 Eastern European Studies from the University of London in Bulgarian

9 history. Is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, you began your professional career

12 as an intelligence analyst in the federal research division of the United

13 States Library of Congress in 1977 until 1980. Is that right, sir?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. And in 1980, you began work as an historian and later a senior

16 historian at the Department of Justice in the office of special

17 investigations. Is that right?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. You remained there until 1994?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, that office is responsible -- was and is responsible for

22 investigating and litigating cases of persons living in or attempting to

23 gain entry to the United States and who are alleged to have participated

24 in Nazi persecution during World War II?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

1 Q. And is it also correct that much of your work in that respect

2 related to the former Yugoslavia?

3 A. Yes, that is also correct.

4 Q. Now, from 1994 to the present, have you been engaged first as a

5 research officer for the Office of the Prosecutor, and subsequently as the

6 head of the legal research team, a post you assumed in February of 1998?

7 A. I have been a research officer since 1994. There have been some

8 various changes in title. At the beginning, the name of the team that I

9 headed is the leadership research team, however.

10 Q. And in the course of those efforts, have you conducted your own

11 research and supervised the research efforts of others on your team?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And has that work involved the collection and analysis of

14 documents relating to the conflict in Bosnia, and more specifically, to

15 the Bosnian Serb governmental organs and the SDS?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Treanor, you prepared a report, did you not,

18 entitled "The Bosnian Serb Leadership, 1990 through 1992" which was

19 indicated 30 July 2002?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And can you -- well, let me ask you quickly whether that report

22 describes the structures, organs of the Serbian Democratic Party and the

23 government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Republika

24 Srpska, as well as the policies and leadership of the SDS and the Serbian

25 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

1 A. Yes, that's correct. That's generally the content of the report.

2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that report and its accompanying

3 footnotes have been marked as Prosecution's next in order. And at this

4 time, I would ask that it be moved into evidence.

5 THE REGISTRAR: The expert report will be Prosecution Exhibit

6 Number P64. And the 28 binders of footnotes will be P64A.

7 MR. TIEGER:

8 Q. Mr. Treanor, can you provide the Court with some understanding of

9 the nature of the documents that are reflected in that report and upon

10 which that report relied for its -- for the issues it focussed on and its

11 conclusions.

12 A. Yes, certainly. First of all, I'd like to say that the report is

13 a joint product written by myself and other members of my unit. I began

14 the research and writing that ultimately resulted in the report in 1994.

15 After the formation of the team in late 1997, early 1998, other members of

16 the team became involved in pursuing the research and writing in specific

17 areas. I continued to supervise that process and maintained ultimate

18 control over what went into the report.

19 Now, the report itself is based on the very extensive collection

20 of original documents which is in the possession of OTP. Most of those

21 documents originate from the Serbian Democratic Party or the governmental

22 structures which it set up, in particular, the Serbian autonomous regions

23 and the various organs of the later Republika Srpska.

24 When I say original documents, I mean documents which were

25 internal to those structures on the one hand, which is a very large volume

1 of documentation including such items as minutes of meetings, internal

2 correspondence, instructions that were issued by various levels, reports

3 received from various levels of the party and state structures. The

4 official documentation also includes the official publication of initially

5 the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina; that is, its

6 Official Gazette, which later became the Official Gazette of

7 Republika Srpska.

8 We also utilise in the report a few press items which helped to

9 shed some light and fill in some gaps in the documentation that we have.

10 There are also -- among the original documentation, there are some diaries

11 of individuals that were involved in the activities of the SDS and its

12 offshoots. And we also drew to some extent on the intercepted telephone

13 conversations of high-ranking members of the SDS. These telephone

14 conversations were intercepted by the State Security Service of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina and have been made available to us. I think those are the

16 general types of documentation that the report is based on. Primarily, it

17 is based, however, on the -- again, the official documentation of the SDS

18 and its governing structures as they were set up gradually in 1991 and

19 1992.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Treanor, may I ask -- may I just ask you one

21 clarification. I don't know whether I understood you well. Could you

22 please look at your screen, page 76, line 4. You said: "We also utilise

23 in the report a few press items." I thought I heard something different,

24 but it might be that my ears are not good enough.

25 THE WITNESS: A few press items?

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is that what you said?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, then I misunderstood you.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. TIEGER:

6 Q. Mr. Treanor, you've also selected a number of documents for the

7 purposes of assisting the Court in understanding your testimony during the

8 course of this case. Is that right?

9 A. Yes, that's correct. The report is written on a topical basis;

10 that is, each of the structures involved is discussed and analysed from

11 the point of view of how it was organised, how it operated, who the main

12 personalities were, what the nature of its activities were. It is not, as

13 I think it stated in the introduction to the report, the report is not a

14 history by any means of the conflict. Therefore, it does not have a

15 chronological organisation to it, but rather, as I said, a topical

16 organisation.

17 I felt that for the purposes of presenting the report to the

18 Court, it might be more helpful, since I presume the Court is familiar

19 with the report, to attack the subject from another angle, that is, more

20 from the chronological point of view, to give the Court a feeling for the

21 development of events, particularly how the SDS leadership perceived the

22 development of events within Bosnia in order to understand the context in

23 which the various structures that it set up were formed, what their

24 purposes were at the time that they were formed, and how they fulfilled

25 the functions that they were designed to fulfil within the overall plans

1 of the SDS leadership.

2 Therefore, the presentation that you'll be hearing over the next

3 few days will include a number of documents which were not included in the

4 original report in order to give the Court a feeling for this

5 chronological development, the situation as it unfolded for the SDS

6 leaders. We will also be using many documents that were cited in the

7 report, but sometimes, again, attacking those documents from a different

8 angle, more from the point of view of what they tell about the development

9 of events rather than what they tell about the structures per se.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, as the Registrar has already noted, the

11 documents to be used during the course of Mr. Treanor's testimony have

12 been assembled and presented. At this time, I would ask that they be

13 given the next order in number and moved into evidence.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit Number P65.

15 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, as we move --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you would expect a decision on admission into

17 evidence, Mr. Tieger, but the practice in this Trial Chamber is that we

18 deal finally with the exhibits at the very end of the testimony of the

19 witness. But of course, the Defence knows that they could object right

20 away. But in order not to do it all in bits and pieces, we do it at the

21 very end, but we'll hear whatever objection there might be at the moment

22 when the documents are tendered. And that of course -- and since we're

23 talking now about binders, the Defence is in a position to object whatever

24 document from a binder is presented, and if they would find there would be

25 any reason not to be admitted, not even to be presented to the witness.

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. TIEGER:

3 Q. Mr. Treanor, I'd like to move into that chronology, but perhaps

4 before we do, it would be of assistance to the Chamber if you could

5 provide an overview of the materials that you will cover, the issues that

6 you will address during the course of your testimony.

7 A. Yes, certainly. The report, as I mentioned earlier, is organised

8 on a topical basis. The main topics covered are the Serbian Democratic

9 Party itself, its founding, its programme, development and activities, the

10 policies that its leadership pursued. It then moves into discussing the

11 structures that were set up by the leadership of the Serbian Democratic

12 Party; that is, the -- first of all, the regional structures, and then the

13 central governmental organs of what later became Republika Srpska. The

14 presentation over the next few days will cover all of those topics. But

15 as I indicated earlier, we'll attempt to put them into the context of the

16 development of events in Bosnia and Herzegovina, which I will try to refer

17 to as BH for the sake of simplicity heretofore, between approximately the

18 middle of 1990 and the end of 1992. That period of time saw Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina move from being under the single-party rule of the League of

20 Communists to being a -- to having a short-lived perhaps multiparty

21 governance, and then finally moving into what the Bosnian Serb Assembly

22 later referred to as an interethnic and interfaith war.

23 The main milestones along that path are the -- and as will be

24 covered in the presentation, the founding of the political parties,

25 especially the SDS, in July 1990, the multiparty elections in November and

1 December 1990, then the developments of relations between the SDS, which

2 became one of the governing parties in BH after the elections, and its

3 partners in governance in a coalition. They were in a coalition with the

4 SDA, the party of democratic action, which was a Bosnian Muslim party, and

5 the Croatian Democratic Union, which was the Croatian party in Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina. Their relations began to deteriorate over certain issues,

7 most notably the position of Bosnia and Herzegovina within Yugoslavia, the

8 internal organisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina itself. Those relations

9 were exacerbated by the outbreak of war hostilities in Slovenia and

10 Croatia in the summer of 1991, which led to a heightening of tensions

11 within Bosnia, which produced the next major step in the development of

12 this story which is October 1991 when the Assembly of BH basically voted

13 to take BH on the path to total independence from Yugoslavia, which was

14 responded to by the SDS leadership with the formation of its own assembly

15 in October 1991.

16 That further develops -- they further developed their governmental

17 institutions over the next few months. Negotiations were going on at the

18 same time to reach an internal settlement. But they failed. And at the

19 beginning of April 1992, BH was, in fact, recognised by foreign powers as

20 an independent state which led the SDS leadership, and in particular, the

21 Assembly which it had founded, to declare RS as an independent state.

22 The story then continues, as will be seen in the course of the

23 presentation, with the activities of the higher level government bodies of

24 Republika Srpska, in particular the National Security Council and the

25 Presidency of Republika Srpska which -- of which Mr. Krajisnik was a

1 member. And we take the story through, I think, until the -- basically

2 the middle of December 1991 [sic] when the Presidency of Republika Srpska

3 was reformed, and Radovan Karadzic was elected as the single president of

4 the Republic.

5 Q. If you just -- I think --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MR. TIEGER:

8 Q. Just a minor correction to the record. I think when you

9 concluded, you mentioned that the -- we take the story I think until

10 the -- basically the middle of December 1991.

11 A. 1992, I'm sorry.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 Mr. Treanor, will the documents to which you refer and your

14 discussion of those documents also embrace the leadership figures of the

15 SDS and Republika Srpska and the nature of their interaction with each

16 other and their subordinates?

17 A. Yes, I think it's fair to say that the documentation that will be

18 presented focuses very much on the central leadership figures within the

19 SDS and its governmental structures and the relationships that they had

20 with each other and also with many of their subordinates.

21 Q. Mr. Treanor, then, can we begin discussing the documents that you

22 selected, and perhaps we can begin, then, with the founding assembly of

23 the SDS in 1990.

24 MR. TIEGER: And Your Honours, this can be found at tab 1 of

25 binder 1 and will, of course, be presented on your screen.

1 Q. Mr. Treanor, can you tell us what the document found at tab 1

2 represents.

3 A. Well, if I'm not mistaken, we have here the introductory speech of

4 Radovan Karadzic to the founding assembly of the Serbian Democratic Party

5 on the 19th of July 1990. It was -- this Assembly founded the party,

6 elected Radovan Karadzic president of the party, and adopted a programme

7 and party statutes.

8 Q. Although I know you've already alluded to it in your overview, can

9 you place the foundation of the Serbian Democratic Party in context of

10 events in former Yugoslavia and in Bosnia particularly.

11 A. Yes, I can. I'm not sure how great a length you'd like me to go

12 on about that, seeing as there's only a few minutes left. To make a very

13 long story short, Yugoslavia was going through a very severe crisis in

14 1989 and 1990. There was acute disagreement among the ruling communist

15 elites in the various republics who still ruled Yugoslavia as a one-party

16 state. Disagreement over the internal structure of that state, the nature

17 of its political system, and indeed its economic system. I would also

18 remind the Court that at this time the communist systems in Eastern Europe

19 and the Soviet Union were also undergoing severe crisis, the fall of the

20 Berlin Wall on the 9th of November 1989, and I could recall a little

21 closer to Yugoslavia the fall of the Ceausescu regime and the murder of

22 Ceausescu on the 25th of December 1989. The League of Communists of

23 Yugoslavia had an extraordinary -- its 14th and extraordinary congress

24 on -- in January 1990, and on the 23rd of January, that congress, in

25 fact, broke up to disagreements among the representatives, delegates to

1 that congress, from the various republics. That effectively ended

2 one-party rule in Yugoslavia and opened the way for multiparty elections

3 in the various republics.

4 1990 just happened to be an election year in Yugoslavia, the

5 previous elections having been four years earlier. And one of the issues

6 during the decade prior to that within Yugoslavia had been the issue of

7 the nature of the political system and whether it should be transformed

8 into a multiparty system. The pressure for that was now -- proved to be

9 irresistible. Multiparty elections were scheduled in the various

10 republics. They took -- multiparty elections took place in Slovenia

11 first, on the 8th of April 1990, followed by Croatia on the 22nd of April.

12 Both sets of elections resulted in severe defeats for the communist --

13 leagues of communists in those republics and brought to power

14 nationalistic parties in both of those republics who were by no means

15 committed to the continued existence of Yugoslavia.

16 Now, in Bosnia, in February 1990, a law had been passed which

17 permitted the founding of noncommunist political parties. However, there

18 was a clause in that law which forbade any political associations founded

19 on an ethnic or religious basis, which proved to be controversial. That

20 clause was overturned by the constitutional court on the 11th of June

21 1990. And at the end of July 1990, the 31st of July, a package of

22 constitutional amendments to the constitution of BH came into force which,

23 in effect, abolished the monopoly of the League of Communists, dismantled

24 the communists' ideological provisions of the constitution, guaranteed the

25 right of free political association, and it also had a couple of other

1 interesting clauses which became the subject of some controversy later on,

2 so I will allude to them.

3 Amendment 60 defined Bosnia-Herzegovina as a democratic sovereign

4 state of its citizens and peoples and named the Muslim, Serbian, and

5 Croatian peoples. It also, in Amendment 62, specified that the territory

6 of BH was indivisible, and the boundaries of the republic could only be

7 changed at a referendum of the citizens with a two-thirds majority.

8 At any rate, the way was open for the founding of noncommunist

9 political parties and for the holding of multiparty elections. In fact,

10 on the 6th of August, elections were scheduled for the 18th of November.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Treanor, I don't know whether this is a suitable

12 moment to stop you. But I look at the clock, it's 7.00 o'clock. We have

13 to finish. And you showed already -- a limited time, but if you have one

14 or two more sentences.

15 THE WITNESS: A few more minutes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but certainly not more, because it's not just

17 us, it's also the interpreters and the technicians who assist us.

18 Please --

19 THE WITNESS: The foundation of the noncommunist political parties

20 had already begun. On the 26th of May 1990, the SDA, the party of

21 democratic action, was formed. That was before the constitutional court

22 rulings, so its name does not carry an ethnic appellation, but it was

23 certainly based on the concerns of the Muslim people, and it was -- it

24 came out for -- in its programme for the maintenance of BH within its

25 present borders.

1 I'll just mention the HDZ before we get on to the SDS, where we

2 can pick up tomorrow. The HDZ was founded on the 18th of August in 1990

3 as the Croatian National Party in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And on the primary

4 issue of the day, that is, the future of BH, its position was that BH

5 should be enabled to exercise the right of self-determination up to and

6 including secession from Yugoslavia. So that is the context in which the

7 SDS, the Serbian Democratic Party. Was founded in July 1990.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Treanor.

9 We'll adjourn. We'll continue tomorrow in the afternoon, quarter

10 past 2.00 in this same courtroom. I instruct you not to speak with

11 anyone, not even someone in the office of your employer, about your

12 testimony that you have given in this Court and you're still about to give

13 in this Court.

14 If there's nothing else to be raised by the parties, we'll adjourn

15 until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day of

19 February, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.

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