1 Thursday, 26 February 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Good morning to everyone in this courtroom, and as always, also to

11 those just outside the courtroom, without whose help we couldn't

12 function.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, may I first announce to the parties, as

15 far as Friday is concerned: This Chamber has not the full Friday

16 afternoon available, because we have a Status Conference and an additional

17 initial hearing. But that would not take the whole of the Friday

18 afternoon. So presumably we might be ready with that at 3.15 or 3.30. If

19 it looks as if it would be possible to finish on Friday, the Chamber would

20 very much like to continue the second half of Friday afternoon, and this,

21 of course, asks some arrangements also for you, Mr. Krajisnik, because

22 usually either you arrive for the afternoon or you leave at the end of the

23 morning, in the early afternoon. So care will then be taken that it --

24 that at least you get something for lunch here. Unless you'd say that's

25 too much for me, I insist on continuing on Monday, then we'll consider

1 that. I'm not saying that we're going to do that, but we'll consider it.

2 But if there's no firm objection from your side, we'll try to finish

3 Friday in the afternoon, if at all needed, because finishing Friday

4 morning would even be better.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no. I will be glad to

6 see us finish this as soon as possible, thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik, for your cooperation.

8 Then, Mr. Tieger, if there's nothing else, you may proceed with

9 the examination-in-chief of Mr. Treanor.

10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 WITNESS: PATRICK TREANOR [Resumed]

12 Examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

13 Q. Mr. Treanor, good morning.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. I'd like to move as quickly and as efficiently as possible through

16 the remaining material and to give you some idea of the pace at which I'd

17 like us to proceed, I hope we can begin addressing, for example, the 16th

18 Assembly Session by the beginning of the third session of today.

19 For that reason, I will only be drawing your attention to a

20 limited number of highlights, those portions of the documents that you've

21 highlighted, and it may not be possible to discuss those highlights in as

22 much detail as you otherwise would. I don't want you to feel rushed, but

23 I would ask you to make your responses as concise as possible, as you

24 explained to the Court why you selected that passage. And I would also

25 note that a number of documents may be -- will be addressed by other

1 witnesses. I'll try to bring those to your attention as they arise.

2 If we could begin, then, at tab 99. The constitutional law for

3 implementing the constitution, I would like to go through the provisions

4 of the constitution relating to the powers of the president, the powers of

5 the Assembly, and so on, as quickly as possible. The Court will have them

6 available to study in more detail if required.

7 Beginning, then, at constitutional law for implementing the

8 constitution, you have highlighted first Article 5, which addresses the

9 election of the first president by the Assembly, and Article 6, which

10 indicates that until the election of the president, the rights and

11 obligations will be carried out by the Council of Ministers.

12 I'll move on to tab 100, the decree on promulgation of the

13 government, unless there are some necessary comments about those

14 provisions.

15 A. No. I think they're self-explanatory.

16 Q. Now, at tab 100, you've highlighted Article 10, which indicates

17 that the president and the government are responsible to the Assembly, and

18 also Article 15, which indicates that the government is responsible to the

19 Assembly for proposing policies and enforcement of laws.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Turning back to tab 96, at which we find the decision on

22 proclaiming the constitution, you have highlighted first Article 80, which

23 addresses the role and authority of the president. Article 81 -- and

24 Article 80, I should indicate, is found on page 13, at tab 96.

25 You've also highlighted Article 81, which indicates the president

1 can declare a state of emergency, and in war or imminent threat of war,

2 can pass enactments later to be confirmed by the Assembly.

3 A. Yes. This is a particularly important article. It will come into

4 use later on.

5 Q. You've also highlighted Article 82, at page 14, which indicates

6 that the president may convene the government and have its state views.

7 And you've highlighted Article 87, which indicates the term of office.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I'd like to turn next to tab 102, the Law on National Defence. I

10 note first that we've already seen the promulgation of government act,

11 which is located at tab 100. With respect to the Law on National Defence,

12 you've highlighted Article 5, which is found on page 2, which indicates

13 that the Assembly shall organise the National Defence. You've also --

14 A. Yes. And I would point out here, buried in that article, there's

15 reference to the president in there.

16 Q. And for the benefit of counsel, we are now at tab 102, Law on

17 National Defence.

18 You've also highlighted Article 6, which indicates that the

19 president shall supervise the Territorial Defence, submit a plan of

20 defence, and issue orders for utilisation of police during war?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. And you've highlighted Article 39, which indicates that the

23 president shall order deployment of the Territorial Defence in threat of

24 war or other emergencies.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. If we could turn now to tab 103, which contains the Law on

2 Internal Affairs. You've highlighted Article 25, which appears at

3 page 5.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Krajisnik.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The binder that I have here, Your

6 Honour, only has number 100, nothing else.

7 JUDGE ORIE: That's the original B/C/S, Madam Registrar, we have

8 got a copy as well. Could I have a look.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, I see that binder 9 is split up

11 in the B/C/S version, and 9A and 9B, so if Mr. Krajisnik could be provided

12 with 9B now. 9A, I'm sorry. It's 9A. So if 9A, which starts with 101,

13 could be provided to --

14 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Your Honour, we were not provided with B/C/S

15 versions of I think 102 and 103, and also we don't have a 106, Your

16 Honour, at all, neither English or B/C/S. So that's -- and 105.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were these documents on the list provided for

18 Mr. Treanor?

19 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, in all likelihood, Your Honour, it's just that

20 with the hard copy versions of the ten folders we received, these

21 particular documents were missing.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say they might have been disclosed, they

23 might have been --

24 MS. LOUKAS: Might have been on the CD, on the exhibit, but

25 they're not actually in the folders that we were supplied with; that's

1 all.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Did you check on the CD so that Mr. Krajisnik

3 can follow the B/C/S version?

4 MS. LOUKAS: No. We just noticed it this morning, unfortunately,

5 Your Honour, that they were missing.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have understanding, since the hard copies are

7 distributed in a rather late stage, that I do understand that you only

8 noticed this this morning. This, of course, is exactly the reason why the

9 Chamber introduced that list. Whether everything was disclosed and

10 whether it was in both languages, but I have understanding for the

11 specific circumstances at this moment.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, we have another technical problem,

14 especially the registrar cannot use LiveNote at this moment on her laptop

15 computer, and she should, because if there's ever any need to make any

16 redaction, she needs a connection with LiveNote. That would take ten

17 minutes. Would these ten minutes not be an excellent time to try to get

18 hold of the B/C/S versions of exactly those exhibits you just mentioned?

19 Perhaps the parties could come together and see what's missing, so that we

20 could then proceed after this ten minutes.

21 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll adjourn until -- I can't see the

23 clock, but it will be 25 minutes past 9.00.

24 --- Break taken at 9.15 a.m.

25 --- Upon resuming at 10.02 a.m.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Not all technical problems have been solved. What we

2 have at this moment, we have LiveNote scrolling on our main screen. Most

3 of us have no LiveNote on their laptop computers, but there are a few

4 laptop computers that do function properly, one of them is the laptop of

5 the registrar, the other one is the laptop of the legal officer of

6 chambers. Whenever a party needs to find the exact wording of what has

7 been said and which does not appear on the screen any more, it's confirmed

8 by the Registry and by our legal officer that they will gladly assist

9 anyone who needs to scroll back. It will be done for them. It will then

10 be read out, if you guide them to the exact place.

11 I think we could try to proceed in this way. It's also a handicap

12 for me, because I'm one of the most enthusiastic users of my laptop. But

13 it's suggested that we continue.

14 I do not see any nodding no by the parties, so I take it that we

15 can continue.

16 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. That would be fine.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed, and we hope that

18 everything will be functioning properly again soon.

19 MS. LOUKAS: I can indicate from the Defence perspective, Your

20 Honour, we're happy to continue without the benefit of the laptops, and I

21 can also indicate that Mr. Krajisnik now has the relevant B/C/S documents

22 that were missing.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That's at least one of the advantages of having a

24 break of almost three quarters of an hour. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Q. We were at tab 103, the Law on Internal Affairs. Mr. Treanor, in

2 that document, you have highlighted Article 25, found at page 5, which

3 indicates that the president shall evaluate the work programme of the

4 National Security Service on the basis of a report from the minister and

5 tell the Assembly.

6 A. Yes. I'd just like to point out in connection with this article

7 that this law is the law which regulates the affairs of the Ministry of

8 Internal Affairs, which has included within it two basic services: The

9 public security service, which is the regular police, and the -- in the

10 previous set-up, what was known as the State Security Service, which was

11 basically an internal security service, largely used to monitor the

12 activities of people that were suspect to the communist regime. That

13 particular branch of the ministry in this document under the RS has now

14 been renamed the National Security Service. So the reference here is to

15 that internal security service, and gives the president of the republic

16 certain special oversight over that particular branch of the ministry.

17 Q. You've also highlighted Article 33, found at page 7. The

18 president can activate reserve police in emergencies.

19 A. Yes. This particular clause is included in a long list of items

20 of the -- duties of the central ministry, as opposed to its regional

21 branches.

22 Q. Turning back for a moment to tab 99, which contains the

23 constitutional law for implementing the constitution. You have

24 highlighted Article 3, which indicates until the National Assembly is

25 elected the Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina

1 carries out their responsibilities.

2 A. Yes. We saw that yesterday.

3 Q. And Article 5 was highlighted, which indicates until the election

4 of the president, the functions are carried out by the members of the

5 Presidency, elected on 18 October 1990.

6 A. Yes. This article in the constitutional law basically makes

7 Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic the acting presidents of the republic, that

8 is, they exercise all the powers that are attributed to the president of

9 the republic in the constitution and the legislation we've just seen.

10 Q. For the record, my question indicated that the date was 18 October

11 1990. The date in the article is 18 November 1990.

12 And you've also highlighted Article 6, which indicates until the

13 election of the government, the rights and obligations will be carried out

14 by the Ministerial Council, or Council of Ministers.

15 A. Right. That's a similar transitional provision.

16 Q. If we could turn to tab 104, the minutes of a March 2nd, 1992

17 meeting of the Presidency of the Socialist Federative Republic of

18 Yugoslavia.

19 A. Yes. But before we leave the package of instruments we've just

20 been considering, I'd just like to point out one facet for the Court. The

21 constitution which was adopted and indeed proclaimed on the 28th of

22 February, according to its terms, comes into effect on that day. However,

23 the law on defence and the law on internal affairs, which were also

24 adopted on that day, according to the terms of those laws, would not come

25 into effect until eight days after they were published in the Official

1 Gazette, and they were not published in the Official Gazette until the

2 23rd of March. When we get to that point, I will hopefully remind the

3 Court of that.

4 Q. Turning now to the meeting of March 2nd, 1992 on the first page,

5 you've highlighted a portion which indicates the attendees from Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina, including Dr. Koljevic, Momcilo Krajisnik, and Dr. Karadzic.

7 A. Yes. These are the -- this is a record, a rather lengthy record,

8 of the meeting in Belgrade, the invitation to which we saw yesterday. The

9 meeting was originally scheduled for a particular date and then I think

10 rescheduled to the 28th of February. It did not in fact take place until

11 the 2nd of March, which was a Monday, I believe. As we've seen, certainly

12 the Bosnian Serb leaders were very busy on the 28th of March -- 28th of

13 February, adopting their constitution, and then they went to Banja Luka

14 for the meeting there on the 29th.

15 Q. The next two documents that you selected, Mr. Treanor, are found

16 at tabs 105 and 106. The first are headlines from March 6th, 1992. The

17 second is an 11 March joint meeting of the Main Board, Executive Board,

18 and political council. Unless you feel it's necessary to pause and

19 comment on either of those, I would move on to the 10th Assembly Session.

20 A. Well, as long as the Court has the opportunity to read the

21 highlighted portions, we'll move on.

22 Q. I can address quickly the highlighted portions of those documents.

23 At tab 105, the March 6th headlines, we see highlighted three portions.

24 The first of which is in the upper part of the page and begins: "That is

25 why it is justified and necessary to consolidate ethnic territories in

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina." That's one sentence. The next highlighted

2 portion begins in the second paragraph: "Mr. Vukic also told the Serbian

3 people not to be fooled by invitations to various peace rallies, which are

4 nothing else but Ramadan gatherings, which irritate Serbs," and continues.

5 That is also one sentence. And finally, a section that is the beginning

6 of another paragraph: "At the end of today's press conference, Radoslav

7 Vukic also reflected on the recent events in Banja Luka radio, stressing

8 that the editorial policy of this media organisation to date has not

9 served sufficiently the interests of the ruling party, and that it should,

10 therefore, be changed as soon as possible."

11 A. This document is apparently a news broadcast which was at least

12 prepared at Banja Luka Radio, containing a summary of a press conference

13 of what is described as the regional board of the Serbian Democratic Party

14 in Banja Luka. Whether it was actually broadcast or not, I don't know.

15 Q. And turning to the 11 March 1992 joint meeting, we see highlighted

16 the heading indicating the date of the meeting and the organs which

17 attended. And then we also see highlighted the second and third

18 paragraphs on the first page, the first of which begins: "It has to be

19 emphasised that in the sphere of entire relations," and the second of

20 which begins: "In the past negotiations an agreement was reached to

21 constitute Bosnia and Herzegovina upon federal principles."

22 A. This is another one of the series of large meetings that I've

23 mentioned too and we've seen records before of such meetings, where

24 different groups of people, representatives from different organs in the

25 party, get together to have a meeting, rather than meeting separately. At

1 this time, the negotiations under international supervision have resumed,

2 and that is reflected in this document, with giving support to the

3 negotiating group.

4 Q. If we could turn, then, to tab 107. The 10th Session of the

5 Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina, held on 11 March

6 1992, in Sarajevo. Mr. Treanor, I'm going to direct your attention to

7 three highlights that you've provided from that session, but could you

8 first provide us with some backdrop and context to that session.

9 A. Yes. The work of this session was primarily, almost exclusively,

10 to consider a report from the negotiators regarding the negotiations which

11 had resumed in Brussels just a few days before.

12 Q. And if I could direct your attention to the highlight found at

13 page 3 of the English translation and pages 2 to 3 of the B/C/S original.

14 That's a passage of remarks by Dr. Karadzic which are contained in the

15 second paragraph of the English translation and begin: "Fortunately,

16 Europe realised that a conference on Bosnia and Herzegovina was what was

17 needed," and refer to: "A bloody civil war with hundreds of thousands

18 dead and hundreds of destroyed cities, after which we would have the same

19 situation as we have now, with three Bosnias and Herzegovinas, but only

20 after a war and with much less population and cities which would be

21 completely ethnically homogeneous." And the last sentence reads: "For

22 it must be assumed that the forcible and bloody removal of minority

23 peoples from one region to another would be carried out on a large scale

24 in a civil war."

25 A. Yes. I don't think that needs much commentary.

1 Q. The next highlighted section is found on page 40 of the English

2 translation, pages 57 to 58 of the B/C/S. I'm sorry. Excuse me. Page 38

3 of the English.

4 A. 57 to 58 in the B/C/S?

5 Q. Yes. I think those would be your highlights 12 -- yeah.

6 A. Yes. Yes. Here we have Mr. Maksimovic speaking.

7 Q. And for the record, the highlighted portions that appear on

8 page 38 are the second full paragraph, or the first two sentences of the

9 second full paragraph of page 38: "Let us say once again and louder than

10 ever that we see no sense in living in a unitary and so-called

11 independent, indivisible BH." And the sentence that follows that. And

12 then beginning three paragraphs thereafter: "Let us therefore openly tell

13 them to rely only on themselves and instruct them to make preparations for

14 all forms of their own defence." The paragraph after that which refers

15 to: "The resolve not to be the servant and slave of Islamic extremists.

16 The paragraph after that, which refers to: "The death of an innocent Serb

17 near our place of worship, which is a horrendous warning of everything

18 that the perfidious advocates of a Muslim BH are capable of doing." And

19 finally the paragraph after that, which indicates: "Let us instruct our

20 people. Let us show it where the danger is coming from," and ends: "Let

21 us call upon it to take an oath that it will never submit to the just

22 revived beys, qadis, agents and other high officials."

23 A. Yes. Here Mr. Maksimovic is providing a strong support for the

24 line that the negotiators are following, that is, that there should be

25 separate constituent units in BH. The reference to the death of the

1 innocent Serb is, I believe, a reference to a man who was shot and killed

2 at a Serbian wedding in Sarajevo at the beginning of March, maybe nine or

3 ten days before this, which led to a certain -- a strong reaction on the

4 part of the Serbs with barricades being erected and that sort of thing,

5 the city being blockaded.

6 Q. And the reference to beys, qadis, agents and other high officials?

7 A. Those are the names of -- titles of various Ottoman officials.

8 This is again a reference of the type we've seen before, to the Ottoman

9 regime of the nineteenth century.

10 Q. If we could turn next to page 52 of the English, pages 79

11 through 80 of the B/C/S. I believe those are your highlighted 17 or 18,

12 17 and 18, I believe.

13 A. Yes. Here we have Mr. Ostojic, who we've met many times before,

14 speaking.

15 Q. And do the highlighted passages refer to statements that were

16 prepared to be sent to international parties?

17 A. Well, in that first portion we see a reference to the 64 per cent

18 of the territory that the Bosnian Serb leadership claims is controlled or

19 settled by Serbs. We've seen that figure before.

20 Q. For the record, the highlighted portion is the second paragraph of

21 page 52, beginning: "First, the Serbian people in BH accounts for about

22 35 per cent of the total population and is settled on cca. 64 per cent of

23 the territory." The last sentence is: "Any unitary arrangement of BH,

24 and especially recognition of the independence of such a state of BH

25 before the three ethnic communities reach agreement may lead to

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 interethnic conflicts with disastrous consequences."

2 A. This is an important statement to remember in view of later

3 developments, which we will shortly see.

4 Q. And the second highlight is the second-to-last paragraph of that

5 page, which begins: "If we bear in mind the fact that over the past two

6 centuries," and concludes with: "The concern over the inauguration of an

7 independent BH, find ourselves enjoying the status of a national minority

8 which would in a fundamentalist Islamic BH, which it would soon become,

9 call in question the existence of an entire people."

10 A. Yes, that's correct. And these two passages are extracts from a

11 draft communique which Mr. Ostojic says has been prepared to send to

12 various states which he identifies as the victor states in the Second

13 World War, Russia, Britain, France, and the USA.

14 Q. Your Honour, the next document found at tab 108 is contained in

15 binder 10.

16 Mr. Treanor, I'm going to call your attention to the --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

18 MR. TIEGER: My apologies.

19 Q. Mr. Treanor, I'd like to draw your attention to the document

20 contained at tab 108, the 13 March 1992 letter to all municipal boards

21 from the Executive Board. You've highlighted a portion of that document.

22 The first sentence of its substantive contents indicating: "In accordance

23 with the stance adopted you are required to assess the possibility of

24 establishing a Serbian municipality in the area of your activity."

25 A. Yes. This letter from Rajko Dukic apparently refers to the

1 instruction which had been given on the 19th of December, 1991, regarding

2 the establishment of Serbian municipalities. It appears to represent a

3 reminder and certainly a request for information in that area. The main

4 concern would have been with the so-called Variant B municipalities,

5 although this document is addressed to all municipal boards of the SDS.

6 Q. Can we turn, then, to the 11th Session of the Assembly of the

7 Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina, held on 18 March 1992 and

8 contained at tab 109. Mr. Treanor, I'm going to direct your attention to

9 about five of the highlighted portions you selected, but again, before I

10 do that, if you could provide the Chamber with the appropriate backdrop or

11 context to this session.

12 A. Yes. Well, this session is another session that has been called

13 basically to hear a report about the continuing negotiations which have

14 just reached another high point. On the 18th of March, a document was

15 agreed to by the parties. I'm not sure whether that took place before or

16 after this session. In any case, I don't think that's particularly

17 important for understanding this session, since the main outlines were

18 certainly clear already, the main outlines of that document, since

19 discussions had been going on for some time, having resumed in Brussels

20 earlier in the month, as we've seen, and continuing in Sarajevo on the

21 18th of March, a document was agreed to in Sarajevo, which is a statement

22 of principles for the new constitutional arrangements for Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina. And the salient points I will indicate in the area that is

24 of most concern to the developments taking place in most relevance, that

25 is, the establishment of constituent units and their boundaries. That

1 document states at the very beginning that Bosnia and Herzegovina would be

2 a state composed of three constituent units based on national principles,

3 and taking into account economic, geographic, and other criteria. And it

4 goes on toward the end of the document to discuss the definition of the

5 constituent units, saying that: "A working group will be established in

6 order to define the territory of the constituent units, based on national

7 principles and taking into account economic, geographical and other

8 criteria. A map based on the national, absolute, or relative majority in

9 each municipality will be the basis of work in the working group and will

10 be subject only to amendments justified by the above-mentioned criteria.

11 A copy is annexed to this statement."

12 Now, this paper, as it states at the very end of it, was only to

13 be the basis for further negotiations. However, it was again seen by the

14 Bosnian Serb delegation as being a great advance. It contained the

15 concession that Izetbegovic, I think, had been looking for, that is, that

16 among the criterion for establishing the units would not only be national

17 but include other factors.

18 Q. If I could direct your attention to one of the sections you've

19 highlighted, found at page 12 of the English and page 16 of the B/C/S,

20 which is a passage from remarks by Mr. Krajisnik. And the portions that

21 you have highlighted are found in the last two paragraphs at the bottom of

22 the page, the first of which is: "I think the problem is that they want

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina to be internationally recognised at any cost. They

24 want it to be a state." And the second of which begins, although it

25 continues on to the next page: "In this respect, it would be good if we

1 could do one thing for strategic reasons: If we could start implementing

2 what we have agreed upon, the ethnic division on the ground." And it

3 concludes on the next page in English with the end of that sentence, which

4 is simply the first four words of that page.

5 A. Yes. I think this is another expression of the desirability of

6 getting the Bosnian Serb Republic up and running as soon as possible,

7 certainly before any international recognition may occur.

8 Q. If I could direct your attention to the highlighted portion found

9 at page 31 of the English, page 45 of the B/C/S. Again, these are remarks

10 by Mr. Krajisnik that begin -- the highlighted portion begins toward the

11 bottom of the page, immediately after the indication that the presiding

12 Momcilo Krajisnik is speaking, and begins: "Mr. Kerovic we shall have our

13 own assembly, our own government. We have not had it before. We shall

14 have our own constitution and laws." That highlighted portion continues

15 on to the next page, I believe, with the first four short paragraphs,

16 bulleted paragraphs of that page, and then a final sentence in

17 conclusion -- I think we've lost that on the screen at the moment. The

18 last sentence reads: "I have summed up this as a proposal of

19 conclusions."

20 A. Yes. Here Mr. Krajisnik is assuring the delegates that the course

21 of the negotiations is going according to what they had all agreed on.

22 Q. And the last --

23 A. Then he returns to the necessity for taking over actual power and

24 the establishment of authority in the republic. As I indicated, the

25 instruments which would have actually gotten the various organs in

1 operation had not come into effect yet.

2 Q. And that is reflected in the last bulleted point: "A proposal for

3 the takeover of actual power and establishment of authority in a republic

4 of the Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina shall be prepared for the

5 next session."

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If we could turn to page 38 of the English translation, page 54 of

8 the B/C/S. The highlighted portion contains the final paragraph of

9 remarks by Mr. Vjestica, I believe.

10 A. Yes, who was a deputy from Bosanska Krupa.

11 Q. And it reads: "Mr. President, I think that you have to give us an

12 order, that after the next assembly, you should order this, that we

13 arrange it for the areas where it has not been done and to implement this:

14 That the Serbs should occupy their territories so that no other forces

15 could enter them. Thank you." And then the -- and then applause is

16 indicated.

17 A. Yes. Again, the advocacy of the idea of actually establishing

18 control in the areas that would form part of the republic.

19 Q. If we could turn next to page 42 of the English, page 60 of the

20 B/C/S. There are a number of highlights, but I'd simply like to draw your

21 attention to the highlight at the top of the page, the speaker is

22 indicated as Dr. Karadzic. The highlighted portion is the second

23 paragraph, which begins: "What we have here is a process." And

24 concludes: "We have entered into this process with our strategic goals

25 and we are accomplishing them stage by stage."

1 A. Here again we have a reference to the idea of attaining the goals

2 that they are all striving for, step by step, and that the present

3 negotiations are an important step in the direction toward the final goal.

4 They do not reach the final goal, but that is still in sight.

5 Q. And if we could turn next, then, to page 45, highlight 14, which

6 is found at page 66 of the B/C/S, the comments by Mr. Krajisnik which

7 appear in the bottom half of the page and begin: "I have realised that

8 responsible government should be established in Serbian Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina." And then a number of bulleted points, including: "To find

10 the mechanisms for implementing the BH Constitution, urgently form MUP,

11 National Defence; money transfer systems; take the Serbian territories."

12 And continues on to the next page with approximately -- with - not

13 approximately - with six bulleted points, ending with: "That the

14 personnel committee of the Assembly nominates the prime minister designate

15 and some of the ministers."

16 A. Yes. Again the idea of moving on to actually activating the

17 Serbian Republic.

18 Before we move on, perhaps I should have mentioned, before we

19 considered this session, and within the framework of the negotiations,

20 that certainly no later than the 2nd of March, during the meeting in

21 Belgrade, it was made clear to the Bosnian Serb leaders by high officials

22 of the SFRY that it would not be possible at that time for the new

23 constitution which was being prepared for the SFRY, the constitution of

24 what became the FRY, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and proclaimed on

25 the 27th of April, I believe, that it would not be possible in that

1 constitution and in the course of the adoption of that constitution to

2 include the Bosnian Serb entity, or indeed the Croatian Serb entities,

3 within that new state, for various legal and technical reasons. However,

4 receiving the assurance that that would be possible at a later date. This

5 was rather disappointing for the Bosnian Serb representatives to hear, but

6 it certainly made clear to them that they had to, I think, persist in

7 their efforts to form their own entity within Bosnia, so that it would

8 exist to later be able to unite with the other Serbian entities.

9 Q. The next document you've selected is found at tab 110. It is a 20

10 March 1991 [sic] report, or conclusions, from the estimation of the

11 situation in the area of the BH Republic. This is a document which the

12 Court has previously seen, and for that reason, I would like only to

13 direct your attention to one portion of that document, found at page 4.

14 You've highlighted a portion there which reads: "Second, Serb people

15 determine themselves for Yugoslavia and if it is impossible, then only a

16 confederate Bosnia and Herzegovina comes into consideration. Simply, the

17 third variant does not exist. The leadership of Serb people and Serbs as

18 a whole are ready for the war if the confederate Bosnia and Herzegovina is

19 not going to be accepted."

20 A. Yes. I've just gotten that on the screen. This is an evaluation

21 by the JNA's 2nd Military District, which was headquartered in Sarajevo,

22 of the situation there. The command of the 2nd Military District was in

23 contact with the Bosnian Serb leaders.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just for the benefit of the record, it

25 comes up on the screen as March 1991. On page 21. And the date of the

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 report appears to be 1992.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Also from a chronological order, I would not

3 expect us to jump back to 1991. The letter is of the 20th of March and

4 the report is of March 1992. Please proceed.

5 MR. TIEGER:

6 Q. The next document you've selected, Mr. Treanor, is found at

7 tab 111. It is an entry from the Grkovic diary of 23 March 1992, which is

8 found at page 126. The portion you've highlighted is contained at the

9 top, indicating a meeting at 1700 with the Main Board and Executive Board.

10 A. Yes. And the topic of conversation is indicated as the

11 delineation of -- in the original it says of Serbian BH. This is the only

12 indication we have of this meeting. I would remind the Court at this

13 point, the 23rd of March, that on this day, the Official Gazette published

14 the Law on Defence and the Law on Internal Affairs. According to their

15 terms, it will come into operation eight days later. So at this time, it

16 was obviously foreseen by the Bosnian Serb leaders that their republic

17 would become functional on the 31st of March.

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, the next document is contained in

19 binder 11 and found at tab 112. That is a 23 March 1992 strictly

20 confidential letter to all presidents of municipalities.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes. This is a letter signed by Dr. Karadzic, as

22 president of the SDS, sent to all presidents of municipalities, presumably

23 Serbian municipalities, informing them of the formation of a republic

24 operation centre and requesting them to make sure that their own

25 information centres, municipal information centres and regional

1 information centres are operational and in contact with the republic

2 centre. I could mention at this point, although the timing is a little

3 bit unclear to me precisely, but certainly about this time - and they were

4 probably quite likely had got some inkling already - that the HDZ and the

5 SDA were about to back off of the 18 March Sarajevo agreement. This

6 happened 23rd, 24th, 25th of March, in that time period. They expressed

7 their dissatisfaction with using the existing municipalities, on the one

8 hand, and with the idea of ethnically based constituent units, on the

9 other.

10 So, once again, the agreement which the Bosnian Serb leaders

11 thought had been reached has fallen through, and to emphasise again, that

12 agreement was merely an agreement on the basis of further negotiations.

13 MR. TIEGER:

14 Q. I'd like to direct your attention next, then, to the next document

15 you selected, which is found at tab 113, and that's the 24 March 1992,

16 12th Session of the Serbian Assembly.

17 A. Yes. Now, this session had on its agenda the consideration of

18 further legislation to establish the proper legal framework for the

19 operation of the organs of the Serbian Republic, which as we have seen was

20 two of the most important organs of which were to come into operation on

21 the -- at the end of March. So they met to complete the legislative

22 agenda that they did not complete at the end of February, and they've also

23 met to replace the Council of Ministers with a new government, and in this

24 particular session, to choose a prime minister designate.

25 Q. If I could direct your attention to a highlighted portion found at

1 page 14 of the English, page 24 of the B/C/S. The highlighted portion

2 reflects remarks by Dr. Karadzic, toward the bottom of that page, that

3 begin immediately after he is identified as the speaker, beginning: "I

4 quite agree that it is necessary to be very cautious when assigning

5 certain competencies," and then continuing to discuss the composition of

6 the council and the kind of information with which it must deal and the

7 circumstances under which that kind of information can be discussed.

8 A. Yes. Now, here what is being referred to is the establishment

9 among the various organs of the new republic, of a National Security

10 Council. This is a matter which the council -- the Ministerial Council

11 have been asked to look into way back in January to draft some proposals.

12 It does not come up in the documentation again until this particular point

13 in time. And there was some discussion in the Assembly as to what exactly

14 the powers of this National Security Council were going to be, would it be

15 an executive organ or merely an advisory organ to the Assembly.

16 Q. The next clip I'd like to direct your attention to is found at

17 page 18 of the English, page 30 of the B/C/S. And it's the second full

18 paragraph of that page, in which it is stated: "Now in the next month or

19 two everything will be resolved. We shall either achieve our goal or fall

20 apart. There is no other option. We will either fall apart 100 per cent

21 or would finally achieve our goal."

22 A. Yes. This is Dr. Karadzic continuing to speak. And you'll see in

23 the next paragraph the reference to promulgating the constitution at the

24 next session, which I think we'll be seeing.

25 Q. If we could turn next -- excuse me. If we could turn next to a

1 highlighted portion found at page 21 of the English and pages 37 and 38, I

2 believe, of the B/C/S, probably on 38. If I could direct your attention

3 in particular to a portion found on the next page, at 22 two portions

4 highlighted there. The first is the second full paragraph of that page,

5 which begins: "Second, it does not suit us at this moment that a National

6 Guard be established. The JNA is much better." And continues on to the

7 end of the paragraph. And then the paragraph that begins: "You can be

8 sure that numbers the police are quite sufficient [sic]." And continues

9 on to discuss that: "At a desired moment, and this will be very soon, we

10 can form whatever we want. There are reasons why this could happen in two

11 to three days." Indicates that at that moment all the Serbian

12 municipalities, both the old ones and newly established ones, would

13 literally assume control of the entire territory of the municipality

14 concerned." It indicates further that: "At a given moment in the next

15 three or four days there will be a method used and you will be able to

16 apply it in the municipalities you represent. How to separate the police

17 force, take the resources," and so on. And it ends with the sentence: "I

18 think that we shall hear about it today in the form of instructions at the

19 Deputies' Club."

20 A. Yes. Here Dr. Karadzic is addressing himself to a proposal for

21 the establishment of a -- some sort of National Guard which would be

22 something akin to an army of the Bosnian Serb Republic. He's indicating

23 that this really isn't necessary at this point. The republic, of course,

24 is, in their view, at least, still part of Yugoslavia. Therefore, they

25 have the JNA to cooperate with them. Now, the Territorial Defence, which

1 in many areas they had control of, if it were mobilised, would, in many

2 cases, be operating with the JNA, so therefore, they would be under direct

3 JNA command; hence, I think, the desire of some deputies to form a

4 National Guard which would be directly under the command of the republic

5 leadership. And Dr. Karadzic assures them that they do have the police as

6 well, which is under their control, and that should be perfectly adequate,

7 from their point of view.

8 Q. And if I could direct your attention to a highlighted portion

9 found at page 24 of the English, page 11 of the B/C/S. That is a

10 highlighted portion in which Professor Plavsic speaks, and the highlighted

11 portion is comprised of the first two sentences of her remarks, indicating

12 that: "Pursuant to Article 80 of the constitution of the Serbian Republic

13 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the President of the Republic wishes to propose

14 to the National Assembly of the Serbian People a candidate for the premier

15 designate." And then ending: "After consultations between the Presidency

16 of the republic and the personnel commission, we propose that Dr. Branko

17 Djeric for the above position," followed by applause.

18 A. Yes. Here we see Mrs. Plavsic exercising one of the functions of

19 the president of the republic as specified in the constitution, that is,

20 to name a candidate for the position of president of the government, that

21 is, prime minister. Here she does that, and Dr. Branko Djeric, who is

22 referred to, was a member of the previous Council of Ministers and had

23 been an official previously in the BH government as well.

24 Q. Now, the next document you've selected, Mr. Treanor, is found at

25 tab 114. It is the 13th Session of the Serbian Assembly, held on the same

1 day, 24 March 1992.

2 A. Yes. Now, the main business of this session was basically to

3 elect -- formally elect the president of the government and some of the

4 ministers. In fact, they apparently had a separate session to do that

5 only a few minutes after the end of the previous session, probably to

6 observe a formality that the designation of the prime minister designate,

7 the selection of the prime minister designate, should happen at one

8 session and then that he should have time to form a government, and then

9 be formally elected by the Assembly at a following session. So this

10 session is mercifully brief, with that being the main item on the agenda.

11 They also considered issuing a statement in connection with the

12 recognition of BH as an independent state, which they had apparently

13 reason to believe at this point may be imminent.

14 Q. If I may just direct your attention to two highlighted portions,

15 the first of which is found at page 12 of the English, page 9 of the

16 B/C/S. These are remarks by Mr. Vjestica.

17 A. Yes. Again, he's a deputy from Bosanska Krupa.

18 Q. And the highlighted portion, which begins immediately after he's

19 identified as the speaker, begins: "I have not written any conclusion."

20 And then goes on to the end of the page: "To urge the adoption of a

21 conclusion instructing the president of the government to prepare by

22 Friday an operational plan for assuming power." And then continues on to

23 the next page, to the end of his remarks. The last sentence of which

24 reads: "This should be simultaneously effected in all municipalities

25 where we already have Serbian authorities and in those municipalities

1 where we have only recently established Serbian municipalities."

2 A. Yes. Well, here again we see an expression of the desire to get

3 moving with the establishment and starting the functioning of the Serbian

4 Republic, and the reference at the end to the recently established Serbian

5 municipalities should be clear by now.

6 Q. And on that same page, you've highlighted the remarks of Professor

7 Djeric, which begin: "The government will have the duty to draw up an

8 operational plan and to submit it for adoption," and concludes: "Please

9 do not take things in your own hands. You will receive your instructions

10 and you will proceed as instructed," followed by applause.

11 A. Yes. Well, here we see Mr. Djeric giving assurances to the

12 deputies that they will receive instructions.

13 Q. The next document you've selected, Mr. Treanor, is found at

14 tab 115, is a session of the Serbian Assembly three days later on 27 March

15 1992, the 14th Session --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Tieger, may I just raise a

17 practical issue. Our programme is a bit disturbed this morning, through

18 the technical problems. I am not fully aware on whether the interpreters

19 could take a break when we had a pause. As far as the tapes are

20 concerned, but of course, the hardware is always of less importance than

21 the human resources, as far as the tapes are concerned, we could continue

22 until 11.45, have then a half an hour break, which is a bit more than

23 usual, and then have a second session from 12.15 to a quarter to 2.00.

24 That would mean that after we started for approximately 15 minutes in the

25 beginning, that we would have two full sessions of one hour and a half,

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 with a half-hour break in between. But I do not know, because I do not

2 know what freedom the interpreters had to leave when we were on standby

3 whether this would also suit the interpreters. Because I'm aware of the

4 fatiguing character of their job.

5 So I'd like to hear from the booth whether it would be possible to

6 go on for another 40 minutes, then have a half an hour break and then have

7 one hour and a half --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much for your cooperation. It's

10 confirmed to me that we can proceed this way.

11 So, Mr. Tieger, please keep in mind that we'll stop at a quarter

12 to 12.00 and then have a half-hour break. Please proceed.

13 MR. TIEGER:

14 Q. Mr. Treanor, we had just turned to the 14th Assembly Session. If

15 you could provide us, please, with the background to that session.

16 A. Yes. Well, this session has as its primary business what it

17 describes as - and I'm not sure how it's translated - the -- but I would

18 say the ceremonial proclamation of the constitution. This was

19 foreshadowed in a document we saw today, and I believe it was also made

20 reference to in the session of the 15th of February. That is, even at

21 that time, in February, the leadership foresaw a gradual process of the

22 introduction of a constitution, first it being adopted by the Assembly, as

23 it was on the 28th of February, and then its formal proclamation at a

24 suitable time.

25 The time had obviously now arrived, this being the 27th of March.

1 Again, to remind the Court: The international negotiations by this time

2 had again returned to square one, if you will. They had fallen through.

3 The Bosnian Serb leaders seemed apprehensive that this would in fact lead

4 to international recognition of BH as an independent state. Before the

5 desired transformation, desired by them, had taken place, we have already

6 seen that they started the appropriate procedure for activating, for

7 instance, their Ministry of Internal Affairs by the end of the month, the

8 start of that process already on the 23rd of March, and so here on

9 the 27th, they are now formally proclaiming their constitution.

10 Q. And if I could direct your attention, Mr. Treanor, to a

11 highlighted portion found at page 23 of the English, pages 30 through 31

12 of the B/C/S, highlighted remarks by Dr. Karadzic.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to this particular

14 document, I'm given to understand that there may be a difference between

15 the English version and the B/C/S version, in that the English version is

16 transcript and the B/C/S version, I think, is stenographic record,

17 apparently, according to my case manager. That's her recollection.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We see in the original, Mr. Tieger, the

19 word "stenogramme," and in the translation, we see "transcript." This is

20 different from what we saw before, because I think there was some

21 reference to an audiotape or something like that. Transcript does not

22 necessarily conflict with stenogramme, but at least it's not the same

23 indication. Could you ask the witness to clarify the issue, or could you

24 clarify it yourself.

25 MR. TIEGER: Well, we can certainly do both, Your Honour. First I

1 would say that we went -- last night we went through all of the assembly

2 sessions with just this issue in mind and had them checked by B/C/S

3 speakers. I accept the possibility of human error, but we tried to

4 eliminate that to the extent possible. But perhaps we can triple-check

5 now through the witness.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Treanor.

7 THE WITNESS: Well, what I have before me is certainly described

8 as being a stenogramme. The record of this session is a little confusing

9 in itself, in that the stenogramme makes reference to seeing an attachment

10 which is a -- in certain respects, it's certainly numbered -- the

11 pagination begins at 1 -- in certain respects a separate document, which

12 represents the introductory remarks by Mr. Krajisnik. But the main

13 document is certainly described as being a stenogramme.

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, also with respect to the transcript,

15 stenographic distinction, I note that on the previous occasion the English

16 translation was rendered very clearly, as you noted, as tape-recording.

17 It certainly seems to suggest that the transcript is an indication that

18 the document is a reflection of the verbatim record of that session.

19 THE WITNESS: I don't believe we --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. Yes. First of all, we find

21 in the English version, after the cover page, not the handwritten cover

22 page, but the typewritten cover page, I noted that sometimes we find a

23 translation of the handwritten cover page as well. Here we do not, as we

24 also did not in 114 and 113. But I think that should not be the main

25 problem. But after the cover page, we find a few pages in English. As a

1 matter of fact, these are the pages 2 up until 6, starting with: "Ladies

2 and gentlemen, dear brothers and sisters, honoured guests, there are

3 joyous but also difficult moments." And that continues in English up

4 until page 6. And then on page 7, it seems that the minutes of the

5 meeting start, which is the -- in the B/C/S original, the page immediately

6 following the cover page.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. That is the introductory speech

8 by Mr. Krajisnik, which, in some copies of this document, has been

9 inserted between the cover page and the beginning of the stenogramme

10 proper, instead of being put at the end of the document. Within the

11 stenogramme, you will see, in the original, it's in rather large letters -

12 It should be on page 1 or 2 of the translation - "see the attachment."

13 It's under Arabic number 1.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see there also that he reads his

15 address, "See attachment." But would it then not be proper to -- not only

16 to attach the English text of the attachment, but -- in the B/C/S version,

17 also the B/C/S text of this attachment, which, by going through it very

18 quickly, I do not find. Will there be any questions in respect of these

19 introductory speech?

20 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour, there won't be. And if I could

21 address for a moment--

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MR. TIEGER: -- very quickly the stenogramme/transcript issue.

24 I'm looking at two pages here which are clearly, at least from my very

25 simplistic and elementary knowledge of B/C/S, the same two pages, and I

1 can tell that from the format and the order in which the words appear, and

2 I simply note that in the B/C/S it says "stenogramme" and goes on to say:

3 "14th Session of the Assembly," and that is rendered in the English,

4 again, which appears to be the identical page, as "transcript." So on

5 that basis, among others, I would say that the distinction previously

6 noted between a tape and a stenogramme does not exist here. This is

7 simply a choice of words for -- to represent the same thing, that is, the

8 stenographic transcript of this session.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I can't verify it. First of all, I'd like to

10 instruct the Prosecution to attach the B/C/S version of the introductory

11 speech to the tab 115, and I would invite the Defence to further see

12 whether there's any difference in text. If there is, the Chamber would

13 like to be informed. If there is not, it might be just a matter of

14 translation of the word "stenogramme" into "transcript," where you would

15 expect "stenogramme."

16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, certainly, Your Honour. We'll be attending to

17 that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

19 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Treanor, if I can direct your attention to the highlighted

21 portion on page 23. It is three paragraphs, beginning: "They can attempt

22 to intimidate the Serbs here." The next paragraph, which begins: "We

23 know that our people have armed themselves." And the last paragraph,

24 which begins: "When you return to your municipalities, especially the

25 newly formed municipalities, I ask you to do what you are required and

1 entitled to do under the law." And then it concludes: "The moment you

2 arrive in your municipalities, you must urgently establish Crisis Staffs."

3 And then continues.

4 A. Yes. This is Dr. Karadzic speaking, giving some instructions to

5 the assembled deputies as to what they should now do.

6 Q. And the only other highlighted portion of that session, to which

7 I'd like to draw your attention, is page 24 of the English, page 31 of the

8 B/C/S, and in particular, the first highlighted passage they top of the

9 page, which is the first full paragraph, which begins: "A war in Bosnia

10 and Herzegovina will not solve anything. If it breaks out, you will get

11 the plans." And then continues with Dr. Karadzic urging the immediate

12 organisation of people within Territorial Defence units which must be done

13 throughout the areas.

14 A. Yes. Again, addressing the next steps to be taken.

15 Q. If I could direct your attention next, then, to the document found

16 at tab 116, the decision to set up the National Security Council. And I

17 note for the record that most of the first page is highlighted. That

18 includes paragraphs which are enumerated 1, 2, and 3, in their entirety.

19 A. Yes. This decision was again considered at this session and

20 adopted. We -- this is the only text of the decision that we have. It

21 is, unfortunately, not a signed copy and it bears no number. It is

22 evident from the record of the session that a decision was in fact

23 adopted. The decision was not published in the Official Gazette. There

24 is, however, an entry in the log of the Assembly, under number 120/02 of

25 such a decision. Whether the text we have here is precisely as it was

1 adopted, we, therefore, unfortunately, do not know. I would point out

2 that in I, the National Security Council is described as an advisory organ

3 of the Assembly. This certainly reflects the concern expressed by some of

4 the deputies that the Assembly might lose some of its authority to this

5 particular body. II indicates the types of matters the council would deal

6 with, specifying that it would be responsible for its work to the

7 Assembly.

8 And then Article 3 discusses the composition of the National

9 Security Council. The Court will note that the presidents of the republic

10 is by virtue of his office the president of the council, and that the

11 president of the Assembly, among others, is by virtue of his office also a

12 member of the council.

13 Q. Now, you noted Article 1, which refers to the National Security

14 Council as an advisory body. Will we be seeing examples of how the

15 National Security Council actually functioned in upcoming documents?

16 A. Yes, we will, indeed, which are a little bit at variance with what

17 we see here, in more than one respect.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have one additional question. Is it right to

19 understand Article 6 to mean that the decision will become effective even

20 if not published in the Official Gazette, although there is an instruction

21 to publish it?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes. If I can -- yes, it separates the two things.

23 This is rather unusual wording.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I see that in the translation, the

25 brackets -- the quote is missing, but that, I take it, is not a very

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 important issue.

2 THE WITNESS: That's -- those are certainly -- simply around the

3 title of the Official Gazette.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

5 MR. TIEGER: If we could turn next to tab 117, the document of 31

6 March 1992.

7 Q. Mr. Treanor, I note that this is a document which will be

8 addressed by at least one other, if not more, witnesses, so I would invite

9 you to be brief in providing the Court an indication of its significance.

10 I should also note that highlighted portion of that document appears in

11 the first lengthy paragraph, beginning: "At its meeting held on 27 March

12 1992, the Assembly of Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina," et

13 cetera, and concluding with the sentence: "In that respect, it passed a

14 Law on Internal Affairs, which shall be uniformly applied on the territory

15 of the Republic of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina as of 1

16 April 1992 and appointed Mico Stanisic, until now an advisor in the BH

17 MUP, as minister."

18 A. Yes. Well, this document simply reflects what I referred to

19 earlier, that is, the activation of the Ministry of Internal Affairs eight

20 days after the publication of the Law on Internal Affairs. Here the date

21 is given for the activation as 1 April rather than 31 March, and also

22 reflects the fact that Mr. Mico Stanisic had been chosen as minister of

23 internal affairs, Mr. Djeric, by the way, also having been confirmed by

24 the Assembly as president of the government on the 24th, as I think we've

25 seen.

1 Q. The next document found at tab 118 is an April 4, 1992 public

2 announcement by Dr. Karadzic. For the record, you have highlighted the

3 last paragraph of that document, which begins: "If, however, the

4 Territorial Defence, civilian defence, and reserve police were to respond

5 to the invitation of the Presidency, the Serb Council for National Defence

6 instructs that its Crisis Staffs be activated in such areas," and

7 continues on to the end of the paragraph.

8 A. Yes. Now, this document is, first of all, a reflection of the

9 fact that the Bosnian Presidency met on the 4th of April, with the

10 participation of the Bosnian Serb members, and decided on a mobilisation

11 of the Territorial Defence. This document represents a response to that.

12 The other interesting facet that I would call attention to is the fact

13 that it's signed by Dr. Karadzic, as president of the National Security

14 Council. As we saw in the text of the decision that we have, the

15 president of the council was to be the president of the republic. There

16 was no president of the republic, but there were two acting presidents.

17 Why one of them was -- is not signing this as president of the council but

18 Dr. Karadzic is, I don't know, but it's evident from this and later

19 documents that we'll see that Dr. Karadzic was in fact the president of

20 the National Security Council, this being the -- one of the first official

21 positions that he -- other than the negotiator, that we've seen, that he

22 occupies in the Bosnian Serb Republic.

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one clarification. This document, at least

24 in English, says the Serb Council for National Defence. At the same time,

25 we see in the translation of the decision establishing a council for

1 national security. That's the unsigned decision of which you do not know

2 whether it was ever adopted, at least in the form as we find it here. Is

3 there any difference in Council for National Security and Council for

4 National Defence or is that the same in your --

5 THE WITNESS: Well, in the decision and in the letterhead of this

6 document, the same name is given, which could be translated as "National

7 Security Council" or "Council for National Security." The word is

8 certainly "security," however.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Is it also that the letterhead, as far as I can

10 follow it, gives exactly the same title and is there translated

11 by "National Security Council"?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes. The title --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Whereas in the text of the letter, where it seems

14 that exactly the same words are used, it's translated by "Council for

15 National Defence." Is the wording in the original the same, the

16 letterhead and what I would say the fourth line from the bottom in the

17 original, and also the fifth line from the bottom in the English

18 translation, where it says: "The Serb Council for National Defence."

19 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, it is the same expression everywhere.

20 JUDGE ORIE: In the original.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: But translated in different ways.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes. Council For national Security or National

24 Security Council.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 THE WITNESS: That is also used in that paragraph.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

3 MR. TIEGER:

4 Q. And Mr. Treanor, earlier you had mentioned Article 1 of the

5 establishment of the National Security Council and the reference to an

6 advisory body, and then you indicated that we would see documents at

7 variance with that. Here we see the National Security Council instructing

8 Crisis Staffs to be activated. Is that significant in connection with

9 your earlier remarks?

10 A. Yes, indeed. Thank you for reminding me of that. Not only do we

11 see Dr. Karadzic appearing as president of the council, but we see the

12 council - and this is the first document that we have relating to the

13 activities of this body - we see the council acting as an executive organ

14 rather than simply an advisory organ to the Assembly.

15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the next document is found in the

16 intercept binder at tab 28.

17 [Intercept played]

18 MR. TIEGER:

19 Q. That was a brief clip, Mr. Treanor. If you could explain its

20 selection to us, please.

21 A. Yes. This is in relation to the document that we just considered

22 and the surrounding events. I'll start by observing, however, that it's

23 rather interesting that Mr. Koljevic, who is a member of the Presidency

24 and is one of the acting republics now of the -- acting presidents of the

25 Serbian Republic, refers to Mr. Krajisnik as "Mr. President," and he is,

1 of course, the president of the Assembly, whereas Mr. Krajisnik addresses

2 Mr. Koljevic as "Nikola."

3 On the 4th April, as I mentioned, the Bosnian Presidency, that is,

4 the Presidency of the -- what's still called the Serbian Republic of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina met at 2.00 in the afternoon. After that session,

6 there were some -- and the mobilisation was decided there. After that

7 session there were some telephone consultations among Dr. Karadzic,

8 Mr. Koljevic, at least, and Mr. Krajisnik, and they arranged to have a

9 meeting at 7.00 in the afternoon -- 7.00 in the evening. It appears to me

10 quite likely that the document we considered just before this, that is,

11 the communique for the public, came out of that meeting.

12 Q. If we could turn next to tab -- I'm sorry.

13 A. If I could just, I'm sorry, round that off. Which would, in

14 effect, have been a meeting of the National Security Council. We

15 certainly at least have three of its most prominent members mentioned in

16 these conversations. Who else was going to be at that meeting precisely,

17 I don't know.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I'm a bit confused about your remarks in respect of

19 the use of the word "president." In the English translation, I find

20 several times the word "speaker," both used by Biljana Plavsic and by

21 Nikola Koljevic. If I look at the original in B/C/S, it seems that -- and

22 of course, I -- it says something, "predsjednik." Is that what you

23 referred to as "president," or --

24 THE WITNESS: Yes. That is -- we render that as "president."

25 It's the same word used for the heads of various organs and bodies in

1 B/C/S, and therefore, I always try to render it as "president," simply to

2 indicate that it is the same word being used everywhere. This is perhaps

3 a confusing facet of their political terminology, but in fact you do have

4 a president of the Assembly, a president of the government, and a

5 president of the Presidency, or a president of the Republic. It's all the

6 same word. The translator here obviously used the word "speaker" as

7 indicating in many countries the title for the presiding officer of a

8 national assembly.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I just put this question to you because since your

10 observation was only understandable if looking at the original, rather

11 than to the English translation, which does not give any clue for

12 understanding your observation. But now it's clear to me. Please

13 proceed.

14 MR. TIEGER:

15 Q. Mr. Treanor, I wanted to direct your attention to the next

16 document you've selected, found at tab 119, a Radio Beograd network report

17 regarding the proclamations of independence. On that document, you've

18 highlighted the first paragraph, which reads: "In Banja Luka early this

19 morning, the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina

20 proclaimed the independence of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

21 which can join a union with other entities in Yugoslavia." And then

22 continues with one more sentence, indicating that the Assembly was

23 informed that Dr. Plavsic and Professor Koljevic had resigned as members

24 of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency.

25 A. Yes, indeed. And I have to remark that this is virtually the only

1 record, if you will, that we have of this session. We do not possess any

2 stenographic notes or minutes, let alone transcript of a tape-recording of

3 this session. But from this and other information, it appears that such a

4 session did take place. The previous session, as we saw, was numbered the

5 14th Session, and the next session that we have a record of was the 16

6 Session. So this is presumably the 15th Session, which took the step of

7 proclaiming independence. At this point in time, the international

8 recognition of what was still the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina was under way, I believe it was on the 6th of April that the

10 EC recognised the independence of the republic, and I believe it was

11 the 7th that the United States did. They apparently decided that this was

12 an appropriate time to take yet another step of, as it's put here,

13 proclaiming independence. Now, if the Court will remember, according to

14 their constitution, this republic was to be a part of the Federal State of

15 Yugoslavia and not an independent state. However, they had been informed

16 in Belgrade that it would not be possible, in fact, for the authorities of

17 the Yugoslav state to implement that on their part at that particular

18 time, a time during which they were preparing a new constitution for that

19 state.

20 So they have chosen the course of action in this situation to

21 proclaim themselves an independent state.

22 Q. If we could turn next to tab 120.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you one question. This broadcast report

24 says that Mr. Milovan Milanovic was the chairman of last night's session

25 of the Assembly. Could that give -- have you any information about why it

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 was Mr. Milanovic and, for example, not Mr. Krajisnik that chaired this

2 Assembly meeting, and whether it -- whether there's any information if he

3 didn't chair it, whether he was present or whether he was elsewhere?

4 THE WITNESS: Not at this time, Your Honour. No, I don't.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

6 MR. TIEGER:

7 Q. As I indicated earlier, if we could turn to tab 120, the minutes

8 of a joint meeting of the National Security Council and the Government of

9 the Serbian Republic held on 15 April 1992. And on the first page of that

10 document, you've highlighted two portions, the first which indicates those

11 present, including Dr. Karadzic, Dr. Koljevic, Mr. Krajisnik, Dr. Djeric,

12 and so on. And the second highlight which appears in the last paragraph

13 of the document, under item 3, decisions and conclusions: "Reviewing the

14 security situation in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, it

15 was assessed that the conditions had been met to propose that the

16 Presidency of the Republic declare a state of imminent threat of war."

17 A. Yes. This is the record -- the first record that we have of a

18 session of the National Security Council proper. As the Court can see, it

19 was a joint session with the government. The government itself was still

20 in process of formation. That is, not all the ministers had been

21 appointed. However, several of the ministers were there, including

22 Colonel Subotic, who was the minister of defence, and Mr. Stanisic, who

23 was the minister of internal affairs. These minutes do indicate again

24 Dr. Karadzic as the president of the council. The portion highlighted at

25 the bottom of the page is interesting in that it indicates a discussion

1 that took place which resulted in a perception that the declaration of an

2 imminent threat of war was necessary, and specified that this be proposed

3 to the Presidency of the Republic, that is, the acting presidents.

4 Now, the acting presidents should have been, one would have

5 thought, one of them would have been the president of the council, but was

6 not. On the other hand, it was certainly the acting presidents,

7 assuming -- performing the functions of the president of the republic

8 that had to sign the decisions that were taken in order that they be

9 implemented and published in the Official Gazette.

10 Q. Quickly in the remaining time direct your attention to the

11 remaining highlighted portion of this document. And that's a continuation

12 of what we saw on the previous page, the first sentence of the second

13 page, and then the fourth and fifth sentence of page 2: "Decision on the

14 appointment of the acting commander of the Territorial Defence and the

15 chief of staff of the TO." And then not highlighted but perhaps

16 significant: "The minister of defence shall organise and supervise the

17 Territorial Defence until the appointment of the commander."

18 A. Yes. Now, this portion of the document, aside from recording the

19 substantive step taken of designating and enacting commander of the

20 Territorial Defence is interesting in that we see the wording changed

21 here, and we'll see this in later documents, I believe, from this body.

22 This seems to record directly a decision taken by the National Security

23 Council and doesn't make any more reference to proposing something to the

24 president. But here again, the National Security Council seems to be

25 acting directly as an executive organ.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, are there any further questions to be

2 put? We couldn't put them now because we have to stop, but are there any

3 further questions in relation to this document?

4 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one, but I'll put it after the break.

6 We'll adjourn until a quarter past 12.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 11.46 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I think I had one question on the

10 document under tab 120.

11 Mr. Treanor, would you have any guidance for me how to understand

12 the line which says that: "It was proposed that the Presidency adopt

13 measures for the removal of the causes of the situation that has emerged."

14 I'm wondering what that would mean, and I'm just asking you whether you

15 could of any further guidance to me.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I hope so, Your Honour. This is a formulation

17 which appears in some of the legislation and other documents about

18 emergency situations. Unfortunately, I've just changed the materials in

19 my binder, so I do not have the text of Article 81 of the Constitution of

20 the Bosnian Serb Republic before me. It's possible that it also may

21 contain such wording. But anyways, the idea is that in an emergency

22 situation, a certain body, normally the Presidency of the given republic,

23 for instance, assumes powers, including the powers of the Assembly, if the

24 Assembly is unable to meet, due to the situation, and one of the most --

25 or the primary focus of the duties of that body exercising the emergency

1 powers should be precisely to remove the conditions, the emergency

2 conditions, that led to the state of affairs as it then exists, that is,

3 an emergency state of affairs. In other words, the job of the given body,

4 assuming emergency powers should not be to reform the educational system

5 or something like that, but to deal with the emergency.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me try to understand you correctly. So

7 this removal of the causes is not, in whatever way, a reference to, for

8 example, removal of persons, which, of course, the presence of persons

9 could be the cause of a problem. I'm just trying to find out whether --

10 since sometimes we see that texts are not sometimes a bit vague, and this

11 is vague as well. You know that in some offences consist of forcible

12 removal of persons. This is not an indirect reference to such a

13 situation, in your view, or would you have any reason --

14 THE WITNESS: This would certainly not be a reference to only

15 something like that, no.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear to me.

17 Please, Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Well, Mr. Treanor, in connection with some of your remarks about

20 the discussions at the 15 April National Security Council meeting, can we

21 turn next to tab 121, the 15 April 1992 decision on immediate threat of

22 war.

23 A. Yes. This decision reflects the discussion and the proposal that

24 was made at the session we just considered, to declare an imminent threat

25 of war, mobilise the Territorial Defence, et cetera. I would call the

1 Court's attention to the fact that at the very beginning of the document,

2 the very top of that page, that this decision is issued pursuant to

3 Article 81 of the constitution. That is the article that confers

4 emergency powers on the presidents of the republic. That article also

5 requires that any actions that the president may take that are -- that

6 ordinarily would be within the competence of the National Assembly, be

7 subsequently confirmed by the National Assembly, and at the bottom of the

8 document we will see that in fact this decision was confirmed by the

9 Assembly at its next session, which was held on the 12th of May.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, the next two items will be found at

11 tabs 29 and 30 of the intercept binder.

12 JUDGE ORIE: May I just perhaps verify first, on 121, under

13 number 2 it reads in English: "Mobilisation of Territorial Defence in the

14 whole territory of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina is hereby ordered." Is

15 that literally what it says in the original, Mr. Treanor?

16 THE WITNESS: In the original, an abbreviation is used, SBiH,

17 which has here been rendered as Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

19 MR. TIEGER: The first is a conversation between Mr. Krajisnik and

20 Mr. --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Tieger, please.

22 MR. TIEGER: Sorry. The first intercepted telephone conversation

23 is a conversation between Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Garic, dated 12 April

24 1992.

25 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Is this ERN 03220859 on the original?

1 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

2 THE WITNESS: The date I have on that transcript is the 21st of

3 April.

4 MR. TIEGER: That's correct. That is the -- I'm sorry. That's my

5 mistake. Thank you for catching that.

6 THE WITNESS: On the screen it says the 12th of April as well.

7 MR. TIEGER: Dyslexic screen.

8 THE WITNESS: Mr. Garic is a local Territorial Defence commander.

9 [Intercept played]

10 MR. TIEGER:

11 Q. Mr. Treanor.

12 A. Here we see Mr. Krajisnik, who, to remind the Court, is, at this

13 point, not only the president of the Assembly but also a member of the

14 National Security Council, dealing directly with a Territorial Defence

15 commander on the local situation, military situation, in his area.

16 Q. The next document is found at intercept tab 30, and that's a

17 telephone conversation between Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karisik. The clip

18 begins on page 2 of the English transcript.

19 A. If I could, before this gets going, identify Mr. Karisik, who,

20 until the establishment of the Bosnian Serb Ministry of Internal Affairs,

21 was the deputy chief of the special police unit within the SRBiH Ministry

22 of Internal Affairs, and at this point he is now the chief of the similar

23 unit within the Bosnian Serb Ministry of Internal Affairs.

24 [Intercept played]

25 MR. TIEGER:

1 Q. Mr. Treanor.

2 A. Yes. Well, here we see Mr. Krajisnik dealing with a prominent

3 police commander, and trying to get information about the situation in

4 Sarajevo. The reference to the river is the river that flows through the

5 middle of Sarajevo. Vraca is on one of the hills above the river and was

6 the site of the police school of the SRBiH and had been taken over by the

7 Bosnian Serb MUP.

8 Q. If we could return now to the document binder at tab 122, where

9 the Chamber will find the minutes of the meeting of the National Security

10 Council on April 22nd, 1992. And as the document indicates, an extended

11 meeting of the council for national security and the Government of the

12 Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13 A. Yes. These are minutes from another session of the National

14 Security Council.

15 Q. The first highlighted section, Mr. Treanor, is the second

16 paragraph under the heading, "Strategic issues," which begins: "It was

17 agreed Serb Republic of BH to maintain the positions that had been taken,

18 especially in Sarajevo," and continues on to the bottom of that paragraph.

19 A. Yes. This is indicative of the type of matters that the National

20 Security Council dealt with.

21 Q. The second highlighted portion begins at the bottom of page 2,

22 with the designation of the paragraph, that is, paragraph 2, military

23 commanding, and continues on to page 2, with the first sentence: "It was

24 decided that the president of the Council for national security coordinate

25 command over the Territorial Defence forces and over political

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 operations."

2 A. Yes. Well, here we see a decision which, from the minutes,

3 appears to be strictly a decision of the National Security Council without

4 any reference to making a proposal to the acting presidents. And this

5 particular decision assigns particular responsibility, indeed very

6 important responsibilities, over military and political affairs to the

7 president of the National Security Council, who is, of course,

8 Dr. Karadzic, and who signs these minutes, as I believe the previous

9 minutes and the others we will see, as the president of the council.

10 Q. And also on page 2 there's a highlighted portion under the

11 paragraph 4, conclusions and reports, and the highlighted portions are

12 numbers 3 and 4, that is, that: "Ministers in the Ministry of the

13 Interior and in the national defence submit daily reports on the situation

14 in the field." And number 4: "That the Ministry of the Interior submit

15 daily reports on the security situation in the territory of the Serb

16 Republic of BH."

17 A. Yes. This is a decision by the National Security Council that it

18 be kept informed on a daily basis by the two ministries mentioned of

19 developments around the country. Now, the reference in paragraph 4 to the

20 security situation, I take it, is a reference, since it is separate from

21 paragraph 3, to getting a report from the National Security Service.

22 I would also add at this point -- I'm not sure if we're going to

23 move on, but these minutes, unlike the previous set of minutes we saw, do

24 not reflect precisely who was at this meeting.

25 Q. If we could move, then, to tab 123, a document entitled, "Excerpt

1 from the instructions for the operation of Crisis Headquarters of Serb

2 people in the municipalities." Again, Mr. Treanor, I think this is a

3 document which will be dealt with in somewhat more detail by other

4 witnesses, so if I could ask you to address this relatively briefly.

5 MR. TIEGER: For the record, the first page of that document

6 contains two highlights, aside from the heading of the document, the first

7 found in the first paragraph, first enumerated paragraph: "Crisis

8 Headquarters in conditions of war takes over all the prerogatives and

9 functions of the municipal assemblies when they are not able to convene."

10 And the second is found at enumerated paragraph 6: "The operation of the

11 Crisis Headquarters is based on constitutional and legal provisions, also

12 on the decisions of the Assembly, Presidency, and the Government of the

13 Serb Republic Bosnia and Herzegovina."

14 A. The reference here to "Crisis Headquarters" is a translation of

15 the expression which previously I have rendered as "Crisis Staff." In

16 particular, that is the phrase that is used in the 19 December

17 instructions. Paragraph 1 here assigns to the Crisis Staff the type of

18 emergency powers that the president of the republic, in the Bosnian Serb

19 Republic, has under Article 81 of the constitution. This document exists

20 in different versions which vary among themselves only very slightly.

21 Apparently one copy was sent out prematurely, hadn't been quite finished,

22 and the government sent out another copy on the 1st of May. That copy --

23 the copy that went out on the 1st -- apparently went out on the 1st of May

24 continues to bear the date of 26th April, however.

25 Q. And if we could turn quickly to page 2. There are two highlights

1 there, paragraphs 11 and 14, 11 addressing responsibility of Crisis

2 Headquarters or Crisis Staffs for collecting information about the

3 situation in the field and notifying and consulting the competent

4 authorities," and number 14: "Crisis Headquarters make decisions and

5 convene when all its members present, keeps official minutes, issues

6 written instructions, and prepares weekly reports."

7 A. Yes. Here we see the desire for information through another

8 chain, that is, from the Crisis Staffs. Mr. Djeric, who signed this

9 document as the president of the government, is, of course, also a member

10 of the National Security Council.

11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, the next document selected by

12 Mr. Treanor appears at tab 124.

13 Q. That again is a meeting of the National Security Council and the

14 Government of the Serbian Republic held on 28 April 1992.

15 A. Yes. And perhaps at this point I can point out that these minutes

16 do not bear a number of the session the way we've seen with the National

17 Assembly, for instance, and I think we'll later see with the separate

18 sessions of the government and the Presidency. Therefore, we are by no

19 means certain that we have copies of all the minutes of meetings of the

20 National Security Council that may have been created.

21 MR. TIEGER: For the record, one portion of that document is

22 highlighted, and that is enumerated paragraph 9: "The reports on the

23 works of Crisis Staffs and municipal organs of government were adopted."

24 And then it continues to the remainder of that brief paragraph.

25 A. Yes. Reference is made to -- also to reports by Ostojic. The

1 next name I decipher in the original as in fact being Subotic, who we just

2 met as being the minister of defence and the acting commander of the

3 Territorial Defence, and the reference to Ostojic is presumably to Velibor

4 Ostojic.

5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, the next document is contained in

6 binder 12, which may or may not need to be distributed at this time.

7 We're turning now to tab 125, behind which is found the decision on

8 establishing penitentiary institutions.

9 A. Yes. And as the Court can see, this decision is also issued on

10 the basis of Article 81 of the constitution, and it's as published in the

11 gazette signed by the acting presidents who are here described as members

12 of the Presidency. And it was later confirmed by the National Assembly at

13 its session on the 12th of May.

14 I call attention to Article 8 in particular. Now, I'm not an

15 expert in criminal law or criminal procedure, but I think the reference

16 here is to the fact that the -- what are here described as penitentiary

17 re-education institutions are prisons in which people that have been

18 through the judicial process serve their terms, as opposed to detention,

19 which is a preliminary type of ordinarily pre-trial arrest, something of

20 that nature. The minister of justice is given authority here. At this

21 particular point in time, or shortly thereafter, Mr. Momcilo Mandic was

22 named as minister of justice. As the Court may remember, we have come

23 across him before as an assistant minister in the SRBiH Ministry of

24 Internal Affairs. During the month of April, he was also, I believe, the

25 deputy minister of the Bosnian Serb Ministry of Internal Affairs but very

1 soon became minister of justice.

2 Q. And for the record, Mr. Treanor, you were referring to Article 8,

3 which reads: "The minister of justice is hereby authorised to issue

4 orders for the establishment of detention units within penitentiary

5 re-education institutions."

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if we could turn now again to the

8 intercept binder, to tab 31. This is a conversation between Mr. Mandic

9 and Mr. Ostojic. There are --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, may I just ask you to stop, because of

11 the speed, we now and then are a bit behind.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I would like to ask a question.

13 The title of the decision about the establishment of the penitentiary

14 institutions. You indicated that there were detention facilities as well

15 here. Are we talking about an issue of translation or what?

16 THE WITNESS: In Article 8, in the English, there is reference to

17 detention units, which I think is an adequate - again, without being a

18 legal expert - an adequate rendering of the B/C/S expression that is used

19 there.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So what we're talking about here

21 is establishment of two types of institutions. Because the title of the

22 decision is quite clear. These are penitentiary institutions.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, the title is clear, and I think one could put

24 it that way, that in fact two different types of institutions are being

25 established here.

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: Or at least authorisation for the establishment of a

3 different -- of a second type of institution is being given.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And I would have a question to you as well. The

5 abbreviation "KPO" is explained, for example, in Article 4, and we find

6 the same in 5 and 6, as penitentiary re-education organisations. What

7 exactly is the difference? Because in Article 8, we find penitentiary

8 education institutions, just as we find that in the title of the decision.

9 What exactly is the difference between a penitentiary and re-education

10 organisation and a penitentiary and re-education institution?

11 THE WITNESS: Very good question, Your Honour. If we look at the

12 title of this decision, it refers to penitentiary re-education -- let me

13 just adopt that phrase. But in the original, in the title, it does use

14 the word "organisation." In the beginning of Article 2, I can see the

15 word "organisation" is used again. After that, we see an abbreviation

16 being used, "KPO," "O" being for "organisation." In Article 8, on the

17 other hand, if we can return to that, the word "organisation" is not used.

18 The word "Dom" is used, Dom, which can be rendered as "house" or "home,"

19 house of detention, that sort of thing, in that sense.

20 Now, in the SRBiH, that was the term used to designate these types

21 of institutions. Apparently here they are changing the name slightly into

22 penitentiary re-education organisations. I could only speculate that

23 perhaps in Article 8 the drafter may have slipped up and used the old,

24 more familiar term by mistake. But there is a different word used there,

25 as opposed to the word used in the title of the decision and in other

1 articles of the decision.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Treanor.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, we were about to listen to an

5 intercepted telephone conversation involving Mr. Mandic and Mr. Stojic.

6 There are two brief clips in that conversation, the first of which is

7 contained at page 8 behind tab 31, and the second of which is found at

8 page 9 of the English translation.

9 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, before we go to that particular

10 intercept, just in relation to the last exchange between Your Honour and

11 the witness, I wasn't sure if when the witness, Mr. Treanor, was referring

12 to an inadequate or an adequate translation. I heard it as "inadequate,"

13 but it came across on the screen as "adequate." So I was just wondering

14 if that could be cleared up before we proceeded.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Treanor, did you consider it inadequate or an

16 adequate?

17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I really can't remember using the term.

18 If I could see the transcript. Is that the right button? Where are we?

19 JUDGE ORIE: I am afraid that we need now the assistance of those

20 who can scroll back. Perhaps, Mr. Acquaviva, could you scroll back to

21 adequate or inadequate or ...

22 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please read the line in

24 which the word "adequate" appears for which Ms. Loukas asks us whether it

25 should be "inadequate." Could you also perhaps indicate on what page and

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 what line it appears.

2 THE REGISTRAR: It's page 48, line 14. The witness states: "In

3 Article 8, in the English, there is reference to detention units, which I

4 think is an adequate - again, without being a legal expert - an adequate

5 rendering of the B/C/S expression that is used there."

6 THE WITNESS: Yes. I said "adequate."

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was the part you referred to, Ms. Loukas?

8 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, precisely, Your Honour. It's just that I think,

9 as I was hearing it, it was a bit difficult to determine whether it was

10 "adequate" or "inadequate."

11 JUDGE ORIE: It's good to see that the emergency measures really

12 serve their purpose. Please proceed.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, I believe we can now proceed to play

14 those two brief intercept clips. Again, since some time has transpired

15 before we introduced those, I just want to identify the participants

16 again, and that's Mr. Mandic and Mr. Stojic.

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed. The date of this conversation being

18 given as the 5th of May. I believe that Mr. Mandic by this time had been

19 appointed minister of justice, but, as I mentioned previously, he had been

20 an assistant minister in the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina. Mr. Kvesic, who was a Bosnian Croat, had been the

22 under-secretary for state security within that ministry. That made him

23 basically the head of the State Security Service and also more or less a

24 colleague of Mr. Mandic during the period when they both served in that

25 ministry.

1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you for identifying the -- that is a longish

2 conversation, which begins, I believe, with Mr. Mandic and Mr. Kvesic, and

3 then Mr. Stojic that participates, and I believe that's the part of the

4 conversation which I believe the Court will hear.

5 A. Okay. Well, Mr. Stojic was also an assistant minister in the

6 Ministry of Internal Affairs, also a Bosnian Croat. Mr. Kvesic became, in

7 the Herceg-Bosna, the Bosnian Croat entity, at a particular point in time,

8 and I don't know whether that has occurred yet, the head of what was

9 basically their Ministry of Internal Affairs, and Mr. Stojic became the

10 head of what was basically their Ministry of Defence.

11 [Intercept played]

12 MR. TIEGER: And the next clip, please.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask you where exactly, on what page we

14 found this.

15 MR. TIEGER: That's on page 8, Your Honour. It begins in

16 approximately the middle of the page.

17 JUDGE ORIE: That was the last one.

18 MR. TIEGER: That was the clip we just played, and we're moving on

19 to page 9, toward the bottom of the page.

20 [Intercept played]

21 MR. TIEGER:

22 Q. Mr. Treanor.

23 A. The first clip is an indication of certainly Mr. Mandic's view on

24 the state of relations with the Muslim side in the conflict, that is, they

25 don't want to negotiate, so now they're not going to get anything. On the

1 other hand, he seems to be interested in the second clip, and in the rest

2 of this conversation, in exploring the possibility of an agreement with

3 the Bosnian Croats, who have their centre in the Mostar area and in

4 Western Herzegovina. Mr. Mandic raises, however, a claim by the Bosnian

5 Serbs to basically having a border on the Neretva, which we've seen

6 reference to before, and which Mr. Stojic seems to think is out of the

7 question.

8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if we could turn back to binder 12,

9 tab 126, behind which is a session of the National Security Council and

10 the Government of the Serbian Republic, held on 10 May 1992.

11 Q. And on the front page of that record, Mr. Treanor, you've

12 highlighted a portion of what appears under what is headed I, and states

13 that: "The following agenda was proposed for the Assembly session,"

14 referring to the sentence above about the Assembly session to be held on

15 12 May 1992 in Banja Luka, and goes on to indicate: "Submission of

16 reports, report on the political and war situation," and continues down to

17 number 2: "Verification of decisions and other regulations within the

18 competence of the Assembly adopted by the Presidency of the Serbian

19 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

20 A. Yes. And it goes on to specify other items which the Security

21 Council proposes should be on the agenda for that session. Again, these

22 minutes are not numbered, so we don't know which session of the National

23 Security Council this was. I think we saw reference earlier in previous

24 minutes to having daily meetings. We certainly do not have minutes for a

25 meeting held every day. These minutes also, I can observe, are not signed

1 by Dr. Karadzic.

2 Q. Mr. Treanor, anything further before we move on to the assembly

3 session of 12 May 1992?

4 A. No, other than perhaps remarking that here we can see reflected

5 some of the aspects of Article 81 of the constitution, that is, the

6 Presidency or, as we've seen in certain cases, the National Security

7 Council itself, adopting decisions within the competence of the Assembly

8 and now arranging to submit them to confirmation by the Assembly.

9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, the 16th Session of the Assembly of the

10 Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina held on 12 May 1992 is found

11 behind tab 127.

12 Q. Mr. Treanor, I'm going to direct your attention to a few of the

13 sections from that assembly session which you have highlighted, but before

14 doing that, may I ask you to provide the Chamber with the context and

15 backdrop to this session.

16 A. Yes. Well, this is the first session of the assembly taken --

17 that met after the proclamation of independence on the -- early on the 7th

18 of April and the beginning of hostilities throughout the country. It's

19 difficult to give a precise date for that, but certainly, as we've seen,

20 an imminent state of war was declared on the 15th of April. And in the

21 interval between the 15th session and this session, the acting presidents

22 were issuing decisions within the competence of the Assembly. The

23 Assembly at this point has a long agenda, as can be seen on page 1 here,

24 encompassing the verification of the decisions issued by the acting

25 presidents and other legislative matters, including amendments to the

1 constitution of the republic and amendments to the constitutional law.

2 And pursuant to those amendments, the election of members of a newly

3 re-formed Presidency. Also, important decisions were taken in relation to

4 forming an army of the republic. And one of the most important decisions

5 here, which I think we will see later and much discussion of, was a

6 decision on defining what we refer to as the strategic goals of the

7 Serbian people. These goals reflected some of the discussion in previous

8 sessions that we've seen already. I think we can move on now.

9 Q. If I could direct your attention, then, Mr. Treanor, to page 13 of

10 the English translation, pages 7 and 8 of the B/C/S. I know there's a

11 great deal of highlighting, but as you've indicated earlier, this section

12 refers to the strategic goals and enumerates them.

13 A. Yes. This is a very important discussion on the strategic goals.

14 This is Dr. Karadzic speaking. He indicates at the beginning of his

15 remarks that these goals have been formulated by the Presidency, the

16 government, and the National Security Council. And as we can see, the

17 first such goal is separation from the other two national communities,

18 separation of states.

19 Q. And that's the paragraph which begins: "The Serbian side in

20 Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Presidency, the government, the Council for

21 National Security, which we have set up, have formulated the strategic

22 priorities," and concludes: "Separation from those who are our enemies

23 and who have used every opportunity, especially in this century, to attack

24 us, and who would continue with such practices if we were to stay together

25 in the same state."

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Can you continue, please.

3 A. The next paragraph contains discussion of the second goal, which

4 is a corridor between Semberija and Krajina. The reference here to

5 Semberija is to the north-eastern part of Bosnia and, and Krajina, of

6 course, being in the western part of Bosnia. We saw mention of the --

7 what is at issue here in one of the documents from February, I think it

8 was -- related to the meeting that took place in Doboj, the idea that

9 there should be a link between those two areas along the Bosnian side of

10 the Sava River, in order that the territory controlled by the Bosnian

11 Serbs would be continuous and communication be possible from Eastern

12 Bosnia, not only to Western Bosnia, but further on into the Republic of

13 Serbian Krajina in Croatia.

14 Q. And the second strategic goal is contained in the paragraph

15 immediately following. I should note for the record that the strategic

16 goals in order are separated by paragraphs and have been highlighted, or

17 rather, the discussion of the strategic goals by Dr. Karadzic.

18 Looking at the third paragraph, the third strategic goal,

19 Mr. Treanor?

20 A. Yes. The next paragraph specifies as a third strategic goal the

21 establishment of a corridor in the Drina Valley. Now, the Drina Valley,

22 or the Drina, the River Drina, was, for much of its course, although not

23 all of its course, the boundary between BH and Serbia. On the Bosnian

24 side, the population was fairly heavily Muslim. And the valley also, in a

25 certain respect, formed a link between north-eastern Bosnia, Semberija,

1 which we saw reference to in the previous goal, and Eastern Herzegovina,

2 which is a heavily Serbian area in south-eastern Bosnia. So the idea here

3 is to eliminate a barrier, the Drina as a barrier, the Drina Valley as a

4 barrier between Bosnia, or at least the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

5 Serbia, on the one hand, and between two parts of the Serbian Republic

6 itself, that is, between Semberija in the north-east and Eastern

7 Herzegovina in the south-east.

8 Q. If we could move on to the fourth strategic goal contained in the

9 next paragraph.

10 A. The fourth goal refers to the establishment of a border on the

11 rivers Una and Neretva. Now, those two rivers are in different parts of

12 the country. The Una is in the far north-western part of Bosnia, and the

13 municipality of Bosanska Krupa is on that river. We've seen some mention

14 made of that municipality several times in Assembly sessions. That

15 municipality was basically bisected by the Una river. And the Serbian

16 municipality of Bosanska Krupa was formed on the east bank of the river,

17 and therefore, among other -- and the other side of the river was very

18 heavily populated by Muslims, and the Bosnian Serbs were content to leave

19 that area to the Bosnian Muslims, hence the reference here to a border on

20 the Una, which is a rather short stretch, by the way. And then we see the

21 reference to a border on the Neretva. Now, the Neretva flows to the sea

22 from just south of Sarajevo. It's fairly lengthy. And the territory on

23 the east bank, which the Bosnian Serbs here would be proclaiming --

24 claiming, was also claimed by not only the Muslims but by the Bosnian

25 Croats, as we saw in the previous conversation on the telephone between

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 Mr. Mandic and Mr. Stojic.

2 Q. In the next paragraph, Dr. Karadzic discusses the fifth strategic

3 goal.

4 A. The fifth goal, as the Court can see, relates to Sarajevo and

5 dividing the city into Serbian and Muslim parts.

6 Q. And, for the record, the highlighted portion continues onto the

7 beginning portions of page 14, ending with the sentence: "In addition,

8 the fighting in Sarajevo keeps the fighting far away from Krajina, far

9 away from Semberija, far away from the Drina, far away from all those

10 areas where we could possibly have conflicts with Muslims."

11 And I believe the next paragraph addresses the sixth strategic

12 goal. The first sentence of that next paragraph is highlighted: "The

13 sixth strategic goal is the access of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina to the sea. It is not unimportant."

15 A. Yes. Access to the sea had also come up in some of the discussion

16 in previous Assembly sessions. I can only point out that the Republic of

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina had access to the sea, a very small stretch of the

18 coast which was deliberately given to it for that purpose. Otherwise, the

19 boundary between Bosnia, or at that point, Herzegovina, and Croatia is

20 formed by the mountains which come very close to the sea. The small

21 portion of the coast that was given to Bosnia is in a Croatian-inhabited

22 part of the country. And if my geography is correct, it is on the western

23 side of the Neretva River. So precisely how access to the sea could be

24 realised without coming into rather serious conflict with not only the

25 Bosnian Croats but the Republic of Croatia, is very difficult to see,

1 since the coast itself is, even in the portion that is in Bosnia, as I

2 mentioned, is inhabited basically by Croats.

3 Q. If we could turn now to some of the other portions of the 16th

4 Assembly Session, which you've highlighted. First if we could turn to

5 page 16 of the English, pages 10 and 11 of the B/C/S, remarks by Mr. Beli.

6 Immediately following the identification of him as a speaker, you've

7 highlighted what appear to be his first three sentences, indicating he'd

8 like to make a few remarks on the: "Priority tasks set by our president.

9 One of the first priorities is establishing communication between

10 Semberija and the Bosnian Krajina, and since Brcko is practically in the

11 centre of all these events, I must inform you that the operations to

12 establish this communication have been completed, to a degree, in the

13 military aspect." And then you've highlighted another sentence a short

14 time later in his remarks, in which he states: "However, for definitive

15 clearing of the area, it will be necessary to have many more forces there,

16 and, first of all, we will undoubtedly need help to maintain the current

17 situation."

18 A. Yes. I would just remark that Dr. Beli is a nickname for

19 Mr. Vojinovic who is a deputy. He was elected to the Chamber of Citizens,

20 and he is from Brcko. Therefore, the Brcko area is naturally very

21 important to him, and the idea of the corridor, which has been specified

22 as one of the strategic goals, is very important to him. Brcko is a key

23 location along that corridor. It's on the River Sava itself. And he's

24 calling attention here to the situation there and the fact that they're

25 going to need help there, which means help keeping that corridor open.

1 Q. And turning to a later portion of Dr. Beli's speech, found on

2 page 17 of the English and page 11 of the B/C/S. The portion highlighted

3 is: "So I would ask President Karadzic and President Krajisnik, because

4 they can communicate with the Serbian people through the media, to promote

5 this more, and I must say that the Serbian people, especially in parts

6 like Brcko, where we are 20 per cent, and as you have been saying,

7 Mr. President, the Serbs are not a conquering people and do not get

8 involved easily in these conquests that are currently necessary."

9 A. Here we have an appeal for help in that area, which, as

10 Mr. Vojinovic points out, is a Serbian-minority area, but nevertheless is

11 very strategically important for the Bosnian Serbs.

12 Q. If we could turn next to page 24 of the English, page 16 of the

13 B/C/S. You've highlighted some remarks by Mr. Vjestica. The highlighted

14 portion appear toward the bottom of the page: "On the right bank of the

15 Una River there are no more Muslims in the Serbian Municipality of

16 Bosanska Krupa. All the enclaves that were there, Rapusa, Veliki Vrbovik,

17 Ostroznica, Babic, Muslim Jasenica and Zavir we have evacuated them so

18 that there will be none there for the duration of the war operations."

19 And then it ends with the sentence: "Will they have a place to return to?

20 I think it is unlikely after our president told us the happy news that the

21 right bank of the [sic] is the border."

22 A. Yes. The reference to the right bank is, of course, to the right

23 bank of the Una. That is the eastern bank the river. Mr. Vjestica is a

24 deputy and is from Bosanska Krupa. Therefore, the situation there is

25 uppermost in his mind. I think we've seen him speak before, and here he's

1 assuring deputies that basically that the border on the Una, which is one

2 of the goals, has been secured in that area.

3 Q. Now, you referred earlier to some of the important events that

4 took place at the 16th Assembly Session. You've just discussed the

5 enunciation of the strategic goals. Was the army also established on that

6 date and was a commander for the army selected?

7 A. Yes. One of the important decisions taken was to form an army.

8 When the constitution and the defence law were first adopted on the 28th

9 of February, it was foreseen that the Republic would be within the

10 framework of Yugoslavia. Dr. Karadzic referred to that later on, as we've

11 seen, that the JNA would be their army, but that, like other republics

12 within Yugoslavia, they would have a Territorial Defence. Now that they

13 have -- now that the Assembly has declared independence at the beginning

14 of April, they need a new defence set-up. So at this point, they decide

15 to form an army and appoint a military commander for that army, namely,

16 General Ratko Mladic.

17 Q. If we turn to some retrospective remarks from it Dr. Karadzic from

18 the 50th Session of the Serbian Assembly held in April 1995 and found

19 behind tab 128, does he indicate who selected General Mladic as commander

20 of the army? And I direct the Court and counsel's attention to B/C/S

21 page 176 and 177, and English translation 146.

22 A. Yes. This indicates that Dr. Karadzic was directly involved in

23 the identification and selection of General Mladic for the position to

24 which the Assembly appointed him.

25 Q. And have you highlighted the portion of the -- of that Assembly

1 session which begins: "Gentlemen, we got the officers we asked for."

2 Continues: "I asked for Mladic." Indicates that he had noticed Mladic's

3 blunt statements in the newspapers. He took -- Dr. Karadzic took an

4 interest in him, and together with Mr. Krajisnik, went to General

5 Kukanjac's office and listened to him issuing orders and commanding around

6 Kupres and Knin. "We spent countless nights in the office of General

7 Kukanjac at that time." Then he indicates that President Krajisnik was

8 already president of the Assembly, although Dr. Karadzic was just

9 president of the party and had no state function and concludes with the

10 sentence: "We asked for Mladic and said that they should set up the

11 headquarters as they saw fit. We wouldn't interfere."

12 A. Yes, that's correct. And I would just observe that, to clarify

13 what's going on here, General Kukanjac was the commander of the 2nd

14 Military District in Sarajevo, and I'm not sure precisely when, toward the

15 end of April or the beginning of May 1992, General Mladic, who had been

16 the commander of the JNA corps headquartered in Knin, in Croatia, was

17 appointed to be the -- I'm not sure whether it was the deputy commander or

18 the chief of staff of the 2nd Military District. So the reference is

19 apparently to the fact that General Mladic was present on the scene in

20 Sarajevo shortly before this session on the 12th of May, so that

21 Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik had an opportunity to observe him in

22 action, so to speak, directly.

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one question in that respect. That's the

24 following: We do not have the complete tape-recording. We have page 1,

25 and then it continues on page 144. I'm not going to ask you for 142

1 pages, but I'd just like to know whether anything changed in the presence

2 of those who attended this session. Because on the first page it says

3 that Momcilo Krajisnik opened the session. But of course, I cannot check

4 whether he left the meeting in between. Was he -- is there any indication

5 in the minutes or in the tape-recording that he would have left the

6 meeting up until the moment when these words were spoken by Mr. Karadzic?

7 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that, Your Honour, but I can

8 certainly double-check that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If your answer would be different, we'd like to

10 know, either today or tomorrow.

11 THE WITNESS: Certainly.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if we could return to page -- excuse me,

14 to tab 127.

15 Q. And I could direct Mr. Treanor's attention to page 32 of the B/C/S

16 and page 49 of the English -- I'm sorry. Page 37 of the B/C/S and page 49

17 of the English. You've highlighted some remarks by Mr. Krajisnik.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 A. Yes. Here Mr. Krajisnik addresses the -- what he calls the war

20 option and the strategic goals.

21 Q. The first highlighted portion begins in the second paragraph,

22 after he's identified as the speaker on that page, and states: "In

23 reality, if we are establishing an army, it means that we do expect the

24 war option." It continues: "It would not look good if the conclusion of

25 the Assembly would be that we have chosen the option of war. The option

1 of war is the choice of those who want to occupy something that does not

2 belong to them. Although in my heart I believe that Mr. Kalinic is right,

3 because we will surely go to war."

4 And the second highlighted portion is found further down on that

5 page and reads: "As for the goals, I would just like to offer an

6 explanation, since I have also taken part in adopting these goals," and

7 continues: "Have we finally --" it continues on through another couple of

8 sentences, ending: "Have we finally decided to separate from the

9 remaining two national communities? We can part from them if Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina is to be torn into three parts."

11 A. Yes. This is certainly an interesting commentary on

12 Mr. Krajisnik's participation in the formulation of the goals, and I would

13 also observe, to help clarify the first extract, that Mr. Kalinic, who is

14 referred to, who we may have come across earlier, was, I believe, in fact,

15 a doctor. He was an independent deputy in the Assembly of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina before the outbreak of hostilities, but he joined the Assembly

17 of the Serbian People either at its formation or very shortly thereafter.

18 And at about this time - I don't know the precise date - he was named by

19 the Assembly to be the minister of health of the Bosnian Serb Republic.

20 It was possible, under the constitution, for a deputy to be a minister

21 without losing the deputies' -- their deputies' mandate.

22 Q. And if we can turn to page --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 MR. TIEGER: Sorry.

25 Q. If we can turn to page 50 of the English translation, page 34 of

1 the B/C/S. Mr. Krajisnik's remarks continue, and there are two highlights

2 on this page, the first of which is: "For us, there must be only one

3 pleasure: To liberate our people for all time." And the second of which

4 begins: "This about proclaiming a state of war, I think that it should

5 be, if the Government of Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, we

6 shall probably proclaim it, but it is obvious that we must" -- and it

7 continues on to the next page -- "not believe that we are only playing at

8 war. We are at war, and it will be possible to solve this thing with

9 Muslims and Croats only by war. And the politics will be instrumental in

10 bringing it to an end."

11 And one more portion highlighted in that page, which

12 begins: "Please, if we acquire the territories which we agree on and have

13 conceived of today, plus the corridor we get up there, we will have done,

14 this generation will have done so much for the Serbian people."

15 And then it continues to the last sentence of that highlighted

16 portion: "That is what I would like to ask you: Can we adopt this

17 bulletin?"

18 I believe those are your highlights number 34 and 35, if I'm not

19 mistaken.

20 A. Yes. I don't have anything to add to that.

21 Q. Can I direct your attention, then, to tab 131, the decision --

22 well, maybe move first to tab 130. Excuse me. Mr. Treanor, shown here

23 and contained behind tab 30 is the decision on strategic objectives of the

24 Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I take it that is the version

25 that was published in the Official Gazette.

1 A. Yes, that is correct. And as the Court will observe, it was not

2 published until November 1993.

3 Q. The decision on establishing the army is contained behind tab 131.

4 Can we direct our attention to that, please, Mr. Treanor. And it is

5 presently shown on screen.

6 A. Yes. Now we have the decision on the army, indeed, as published

7 in the Official Gazette at the time, later on, in May. And as the Court

8 can see, in Article 3, General Ratko Mladic is appointed commander of the

9 Main Staff of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 Q. May I next direct your attention to the next document you've

11 selected, which is found at tab 132, the decision on promulgating the law

12 amending the constitution.

13 A. This is actually the law on amending the constitutional law. I

14 call attention to Article 1, beginning in paragraph 2. If we could

15 magnify that. In paragraph 2 of Article 1. Now, this specifies that

16 instead of the two acting presidents fulfilling the function of the

17 President of the Republic, the Assembly would now elect a three-member

18 Presidency.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that you were referring to

20 Article 1 of this law?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: In which it says that paragraph 2 of Article 5 of the

23 Law on the Constitution is changed? Because I do not find any paragraph 2

24 in Article 1.

25 THE WITNESS: The paragraphs are not numbered. I'm sorry, Your

1 Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

3 MR. TIEGER:

4 Q. Excuse me. If I could direct your attention to page 3. I thought

5 there was a highlighted section there. There is not. But -- so I'll move

6 on to the decision proclaiming amendments to the constitution, unless you

7 have additional comments.

8 A. A further provision in that Article 1 is that the three-member

9 Presidency would select from its number a president of the Presidency, and

10 further specifies that the Presidency would adopt rules of procedure for

11 its work.

12 Q. I think I have time to move you on to one further document,

13 contained at tab 135. That's the decision proclaiming amendments to the

14 constitution. Mr. Treanor, any comments on that document before we

15 adjourn for the day?

16 A. Yes. This is a package of amendments that has to do with national

17 defence, in particular, with the fact that an army has now been created.

18 The constitution is being amended appropriately. And we see, in

19 particular, in Amendment 3, which specifies that: "The army will be

20 commanded by the President of the Republic in times of peace and during

21 war, and that the President of the Republic shall appoint, promote, and

22 discharge officers of the army."

23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, it is 1.45.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger. First of all, I would like to ask

25 you one question, but perhaps we could first escort Mr. Treanor out of the

1 courtroom, accompanied by the same instructions I gave you the previous

2 days, Mr. Treanor.

3 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'd like to ask you the following: If we

7 would also sit tomorrow in the afternoon - of course, a lot of

8 preparations have to be made - the sooner we would know it, the better it

9 will be. So if you have already an idea on whether, of course, apart from

10 unforeseen problems, as we faced today, whether you'd need time in the

11 afternoon tomorrow.

12 MR. TIEGER: I believe so, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you also think that if we would, well, let's

14 say, start, for example, at 3.30 in the afternoon, and if the interpreters

15 would be there, and if we could continue, well, let's say, for another two

16 hours or two and a half or three hours, because it's never any further

17 than 7.00, would we be able to finish tomorrow, you would think?

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that's obviously a more difficult

19 question. I would be hopeful and optimistic about that. And as I

20 indicated to you before, I would certainly aim toward that. I want to be

21 candid and indicate it's hard to predict, but I think that is at least a

22 realistic objective.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then a last minor issue. On tab 135, where we

24 are at this moment, I see that, at least in Amendment 1, a part is not

25 legible. I also see that in the original set, we also have a French

1 translation, and the French translator seems to have no problems in

2 reading what the English translator couldn't read. If you would clarify

3 that before tomorrow, that would be fine.

4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. If I may, just briefly.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. TIEGER: I just wanted to clarify a couple of issues raised

7 yesterday, very quickly. With respect to intercept binder tab 27, we have

8 replaced the document, which now renders the pagination completely

9 synchronised and accurate. We have replaced the B/C/S in tab 88. In

10 tab 95, the material that was in Sanction that was not in the binder is

11 now there. We have also replaced the pages that -- or provided the pages

12 that Judge El Mahdi did not have yesterday. And we have provided the

13 attachment which was the introductory speech to tab 115.

14 JUDGE ORIE: That's good to see that we have such a quick response

15 from the Prosecution. Thank you, Mr. Tieger, for that.

16 If there's nothing else to be raised, we'll adjourn until

17 tomorrow, 9.00, same courtroom.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day of

20 February, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

21

22

23

24

25