Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2448

1 Thursday, 22 April 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 [Technical difficulty]

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- on channel 4, where I usually get the English

7 translation. Since it seems that we -- that the technical problem has

8 been solved, I'd rather start again and ask again, Madam Registrar, to

9 call the case.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

11 Momcilo Krajisnik.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13 Ms. Loukas, you were on your feet. But before I give you an

14 opportunity address the Chamber, I'd first like to turn into private

15 session for a short time.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

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Page 2449












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Page 2450

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18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. Please proceed.

21 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. Just in relation to the

22 order of the next witnesses, I would -- as Your Honour is aware, I'm

23 currently in the middle of my cross-examination of Mr. Hasanovic.


25 MS. LOUKAS: I understand that the next witness is KRAJ 461, a

Page 2451

1 witness for whom heretofore there was a question of whether or not he

2 would be seeking protective measures. The situation is there that I

3 received some additional material in relation to that witness after court

4 yesterday, and some additional material in relation to that witness the

5 day before, which included a transcript of his previous evidence, from

6 Mr. Harmon. Now, I realised last night, when I was going through the

7 transcript of that particular witness, that I hadn't received the

8 cross-examination of that witness -- at the end of the evidence in chief

9 and the cross-examination, because it went on the next day, and I only had

10 one day's worth of transcript.

11 So I've had an opportunity, as Mr. Harmon kindly provided me with

12 that additional transcript just prior to court this morning, I've had an

13 opportunity to skim through that transcript. I don't think my

14 cross-examination of that particular witness will be very long, but I'd

15 like the opportunity to read the rest of the transcript prior to

16 cross-examining the witness.


18 MS. LOUKAS: So in terms of the order in relation to the following

19 witness, who I also understand is in all likelihood seeking protective

20 measures, 039, I'm just wondering if we could, once the evidence in chief

21 of that first witness is completed, if the evidence in chief of the second

22 witness could be completed while I have an opportunity to review the

23 transcript.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Mr. Tieger, any objection against the

25 proposal of Ms. Loukas?

Page 2452

1 MR. TIEGER: If I can begin with just a quick clarification of the

2 record, and not in the spirit of finger pointing but just to make the

3 record clear. Those were not additional materials disclosed, those were

4 materials re-disclosed. Those materials were originally disclosed in

5 April 2003. I might also note that they are available on the Internet.

6 Nevertheless, it is correct, as I understand it, that the re-disclosed

7 materials did not include the portion to which Ms. Loukas referred. She

8 does have those this morning.

9 Now, with that clarification, to directly address the Court's

10 question: I understand that the second witness was required to review

11 materials from previous testimony, and it is -- he would have been

12 available pursuant to the earlier schedule, which would have had him

13 taking the stand in the afternoon. Of course, he is -- he will be ready

14 to proceed at that time. Based on this new proposal, I am not in a

15 position to say he could proceed immediately after the direct of the next

16 scheduled witness. So that -- there would be a logistical issue involved

17 that may or may not --


19 MR. TIEGER: -- require an interlude.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take whatever measures which would

21 facilitate examination-in-chief immediately following. I do understand

22 that it was only foreseen that it would be this afternoon, but if you

23 could try to make him available at the earliest moment possible. Yes?

24 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just -- I'd like to make a clarification

25 upon Mr. Tieger's clarification. I would indicate on this question of the

Page 2453

1 transcript being available on the Internet, the situation is that there

2 were portions that were in fact redacted and were not available --


4 MS. LOUKAS: -- on the Internet. So I think --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- if there's any -- I can imagine that these

6 points arise. I'd rather now proceed, and we have a very tight schedule.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, I know.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And this does not add to what we have on our mind at

9 this moment, that is, to finish with the witnesses this week.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: But of course the Chamber is quite willing to listen

12 to these kind of smaller adjustments once we are back from our week off.

13 So it's not to say that we are not interested to hear it, but perhaps this

14 is the moment where we should --

15 MS. LOUKAS: Just one second point, if I might make it, Your

16 Honour.


18 MS. LOUKAS: Also in relation to what Mr. Tieger just said. I

19 would indicate that it wasn't the case that that particular witness, the

20 second witness, would in fact start in the afternoon even on the schedule

21 previously anticipated, because the idea was that there would be one hour

22 in relation to the rest of my cross-examination, one hour and a quarter in

23 relation to --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll ask Mr. Tieger to look at it that he could

25 be here as soon as possible, and if he's not here, we'll certainly

Page 2454

1 consider whose fault it is to the extent that it helps us. But I do

2 understand that you disagree with the scheduling as presented by

3 Mr. Tieger.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, I do, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.

6 Then I think -- you are ready to continue the cross-examination of

7 Mr. Hasanovic?

8 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct, Your Honour, yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please escort

10 Mr. Hasanovic into the courtroom.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Hasanovic. Can you hear me in a

13 language you understand?

14 THE WITNESS: Good morning. [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you're still bound by the

16 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony. And

17 Ms. Loukas will now continue the cross-examination.

18 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas: [Continued]

23 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, you'll recall that when we adjourned for the

24 day yesterday, I was asking you about your awareness of various background

25 events. Do you recall that?

Page 2455

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, were you aware that, on or around the 9th of

3 May, 1992, that Serbs from Srebrenica left there and came to Bratunac?

4 That's Serb civilians. And on the same day, Muslims from Bratunac left

5 and moved to Srebrenica. Were you aware of those particular movements of

6 people?

7 A. I cannot hear very well in my earphones.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you ...

9 THE USHER: Test. Test.


11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You now better hear, Mr. Hasanovic, or ...

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear.


14 Q. So I take it, Mr. Hasanovic, you didn't hear the last question

15 because of the technical difficulties; is that correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. So, Mr. Hasanovic, you'll recall that when we left off yesterday,

18 I was asking you some background questions in relation to Bratunac. Do

19 you recall that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And I just want to ask you if you were aware that on or around the

22 9th of May, 1992, that Serb civilians from Srebrenica left that particular

23 town and came to Bratunac, and on the same day, Muslims from Bratunac left

24 Bratunac and went to Srebrenica. Were you aware of those movements of

25 people?

Page 2456

1 A. No, I was not aware of such movements in those directions.

2 Q. Were you aware that Naser Oric had become commander of the Muslim

3 armed forces in that area?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, of course, prior to your coming to give

6 evidence in court yesterday, of course you had a proofing session on the

7 18th of April with the Prosecution.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in relation to that proofing session, I think you indicated to

10 the Court that it took a period of -- if you might remind the Court how

11 long.

12 A. Yes. It took one day; several hours the first day, and an hour

13 the next day.

14 Q. This is your proofing with the Prosecution just prior to giving

15 evidence yesterday you're talking about?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So approximately how many hours was that?

18 A. Altogether, it lasted four to five hours.

19 Q. Now, one of the matters that you indicated in your proofing

20 session was this, and I'd like to confirm it with you. And I'll read it

21 out slowly for the benefit of the interpreters, and of course for your

22 benefit, Mr. Hasanovic.

23 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour.


25 MR. MARGETTS: We do have a B/C/S copy of the proofing notes that

Page 2457

1 may assist the witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: If, Ms. Loukas would like to use them, then --

3 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I didn't propose to go through the

4 entire proofing note, which covers some five pages. It was just a

5 particular paragraph.

6 JUDGE ORIE: They are available in B/C/S in case the witness would

7 need to consult them and if that would be a logical consequence of your

8 questions. Please proceed.

9 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour.

10 Perhaps if the B/C/S copy might be made available for the witness.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, I think you've got the B/C/S copy of your

12 proofing notes in front of you.

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Now, if you go to paragraph 3 of your five-page proofing note,

15 you'll see that what you have stated there was that: "Later, when we were

16 detained in the Vuk Karadzic school, the Serbs said that they were

17 fighting against these paramilitaries but they were not successful. Other

18 people thought that everything would be in order once the paramilitaries

19 were out of the region. The Serb guards stated that everything would be

20 in order as soon as the Serb leadership is able to throw out those who

21 were paid by -- they did not know whom, and were ordered to come by they

22 did not know whom."

23 Do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So that was a matter that you covered in your proofing session

Page 2458

1 with the Prosecution, and of course that is indeed correct, Mr. Hasanovic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I just wanted to confirm that with you, Mr. Hasanovic, as it was a

4 matter that was not elicited in your evidence in chief.

5 Now, the other matter, Mr. Hasanovic, is this: In your statement

6 of the 7th of April of the year 2000, at page 5 --

7 MS. LOUKAS: And again, it might be suitable to give Mr. Hasanovic

8 access to the B/C/S copy of his statement prior to my asking the question.

9 Q. So you have that before you now, Mr. Hasanovic. If you'd like to

10 turn to paragraph 24. Have you got that before you, Mr. Hasanovic?

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. Now, you'll note there that you mention: "The day after the police

13 department split, the Serbs were wearing their own Serbian uniforms with

14 Serbian state insignias." Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you describe the uniform for me.

17 A. Yes. When the police was divided, the Serbs kept the same

18 uniforms. However, new people were recruited to the police from the ranks

19 of civilians and they used the same uniforms, with the only difference

20 being that on their sleeves there were the insignia of the Serbian police.

21 Q. And how big was that?

22 A. Those were insignia worn either on sleeves or on the blouse

23 pocket.

24 Q. I'll again ask my question: How big was it?

25 A. I can't be sure of that. The size was three centimetres by two

Page 2459

1 centimetres, approximately.

2 Q. And what did it look like?

3 A. I believe that it depicted the flag of the Serbian Krajina region.

4 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interfere? Could you indicate with your

5 hands what the size approximately was, so that we can get a better

6 impression.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This was approximately the

8 size, and these were the dimensions of that emblem.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From what the witness indicates, it's far more

10 than two by three centimetres, Ms. Loukas. The Chamber notes that it was

11 anything between 7 and 10 centimetres, rather than 2 by 3 centimetres.

12 And since I had some difficulty in understanding such a small insignia, I

13 asked the witness.

14 Please proceed.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. And where was this insignia?

17 A. On one of the sleeves of the police uniform.

18 Q. Where on the sleeve?

19 A. I believe that it was on the left sleeve.

20 Q. What colour was it?

21 A. It was blue and white. There was another colour that I can't

22 remember at this moment. And I believe that there was the inscription of

23 the Serbian Krajina, the so-called Birac, denoting all of the Serbian

24 municipalities that they proclaimed in that region.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, moving on to another topic. If you turn the

Page 2460

1 page, and that is at page 6, have you got paragraph 31 in front of you?

2 Do you see that paragraph, Mr. Hasanovic?

3 A. Yes, I see paragraph 31. However, it is on page 4.

4 Q. It's on page 4 in the B/C/S version, is it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, at paragraph 31, you indicate this: "The Territorial Defence

7 unit never had any weapons. My brother and the others had tried to obtain

8 some, but we were never successful. We managed to get a few hunting

9 rifles from families but never any substantial weapons."

10 Do you see that portion there, Mr. Hasanovic?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Yes. From whom did your brother and the others try to obtain some

13 weapons?

14 A. We tried to obtain weapons in order to create a team. This team,

15 in case of attack, would be --

16 JUDGE ORIE: May I stop you? Could you please carefully listen to

17 the question. The question was: From whom you sought to obtain weapons.

18 Not the purpose for which you wanted to have these weapons, but from whom.

19 Could you carefully listen to the question and try to answer that question

20 specifically.

21 Please proceed.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We tried to contact the Muslim

23 authorities in Bratunac in order to obtain weapons.


25 Q. And who were the Muslim authorities in Bratunac that you tried to

Page 2461

1 obtain these weapons from?

2 A. They were representatives of the SDA, one of whom was the

3 president of the municipality.

4 Q. And who was that, Mr. Hasanovic?

5 A. Nijaz Durakovic was the president, and the president of the SDA

6 was Mr. Dzevad Gusic.

7 Q. And what was your purpose in trying to obtain these weapons?

8 A. I don't understand the question.

9 Q. Why were you trying to obtain the weapons, Mr. Hasanovic?

10 A. I personally tried to obtain weapons because of the atmosphere.

11 Terrible things were happening all around us. We believed that we should

12 have weapons in order to be able to defend ourselves in case of attack.

13 Q. When did you try and obtain the weapons?

14 A. It was when the conflict escalated in Croatia.

15 Q. So around what date are you talking about, Mr. Hasanovic?

16 A. I can't be sure of that. It was sometime at the beginning of

17 April.

18 Q. When you say the conflict in Croatia escalated, of course, the

19 conflict in Croatia commenced in 1991, so what do you mean by the

20 escalation?

21 A. What I meant was that we couldn't see an end to that conflict.

22 Q. So there was a fear amongst the people in your community that the

23 conflict nearby in Croatia may spill over to where you were?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, how many people in your area of Suha had weapons?

Page 2462

1 A. I don't know exactly. There were some hunting rifles that

2 individuals had. I don't know who had them, because people who had them

3 did not dare show it. They didn't dare say that they had them.

4 Q. But in any event, through your position in the SDA, you were aware

5 that people had weapons, that Muslims had weapons.

6 A. My position in the SDA was very weak. I worked in the morning

7 every day. I did not attend any sessions of the party. I know that some

8 people got weapons from the police station in Bratunac. Those weapons

9 were distributed equally amongst the Serbs and the Muslims, and those

10 people kept those weapons at home.

11 Q. When did that distribution occur, Mr. Hasanovic?

12 A. I believe that this happened in April.

13 Q. And as you've indicated, to both Serbs and Muslims?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you remember approximately what was the total number of the

16 distribution of these weapons?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, just going back to the evidence you were

19 giving yesterday. You were describing the events of the 10th of May, and

20 I think you indicated that you said to your wife that you had to lie low,

21 and you went and hid in some bushes. You recall that evidence yesterday,

22 Mr. Hasanovic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you described -- you joined your family at a later point. You

25 found your wife and children, and together with them, you started walking

Page 2463

1 towards the town. Do you recall that evidence?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Now, you were asked by the Prosecution: Can you describe the

4 soldiers that were walking with the people, and you said that the soldiers

5 mostly wore the uniforms of the Yugoslav army. Do you recall that?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. And you said "mostly our neighbours from Bratunac."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did the uniform actually look like, Mr. Hasanovic?

10 A. They wore summer military uniforms, and most probably it belonged

11 to the military department, in the depot of the military department in

12 Bratunac and was kept there as the reserve uniforms.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, I take it you at some stage completed your

14 compulsory military service?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. And the situation is, when you complete your military service,

17 that once you've completed that and you register that you've finished,

18 that you're then registered as a reserve. That's correct, isn't it?

19 A. No. According to military rules, all those who completed

20 compulsory military service were members of the reserve in case of war.

21 However, I personally was never invited to attend any additional training

22 or manoeuvres or any such thing after the compulsory service that I did.

23 Q. Yes. That's right. According to the military rules, all those

24 who complete their compulsory military service are members of the reserve.

25 So you agree with that proposition?

Page 2464












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2465

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And when you're in the -- when one was in the reserves at that

3 point, of course, one has a uniform and boots and what have you. You'd

4 agree with that proposition, wouldn't you, Mr. Hasanovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, just in relation to this evidence you gave yesterday. At one

7 point you also indicated that when you were coming close to the stadium,

8 you noticed a car, you recognised the car, you saw two soldiers come out

9 of the car, and one of them was Krke. Do you recall that evidence?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Now, what were they wearing?

12 A. Krke had a black uniform on, and the other two soldiers wore

13 military uniforms.

14 Q. And when you say "military," can you describe what you mean by

15 "military."

16 A. I'm referring to the military uniform worn by the reserve or the

17 uniform worn by the former Yugoslav army soldiers.

18 Q. Now, further in relation to the evidence you gave yesterday in

19 relation to Branko Jovanovic, the man who hurt you personally, you gave

20 evidence. Do you recall that evidence?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. And you said that he was wearing a military uniform. Can you

23 describe that military uniform?

24 A. Yes, I can. It is the same uniform that I've already described.

25 Your Honours, with your leave, I would like to clarify.

Page 2466

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Hasanovic.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally believe that this

3 uniform belonged to all the citizens of the former Yugoslavia, including

4 the army, up to the moment when the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

5 organised the referendum on independence and secession from the rest of

6 Yugoslavia. This is what was done. I personally attended the referendum,

7 and the vast majority of the citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina decided to

8 -- that they wanted to live in an independent state. This is what was

9 done.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. Do I understand that when you're

11 describing these uniforms, you say they were the uniforms everyone would

12 have up to the referendum in which the people voted on independence? Is

13 that a correct understanding of your testimony?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so. My opinion is

15 that it belonged to us and that all of us citizens recognised it as the

16 uniform of our own army up to the moment when the Republic of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina stopped being an integral part of Yugoslavia.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, just in relation to these -- now,

21 Mr. Hasanovic, just in relation to these uniforms, I was asking you some

22 questions earlier about the reserves. Now, of course, everybody who was

23 in the reserves had a uniform; is that correct?

24 A. Yes. They had uniforms, but these uniforms were kept in a depot

25 in Bratunac municipality.

Page 2467

1 Q. Well, the situation is, Mr. Hasanovic, that people were often

2 allowed to keep their uniforms at home.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, this is not a question but you say what

4 the situation is.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE ORIE: You said: "Mr. Hasanovic, the situation is..." It's

7 not a question.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, it's an assertion, to which I'm inviting his

9 agreement, Your Honour.


11 Ms. Loukas asked you whether the people were often allowed to keep

12 their uniforms at home.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so, but that was only when

14 some exercises were organised. Then people would be issued uniforms for a

15 period of 7 to 15 days. According to my knowledge, after the exercise,

16 the uniforms would go back to the depot.


18 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, just in relation to that: I think you

19 indicated that you don't have any personal knowledge of the reserve

20 situation, because I think you said you weren't in the reserves. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So as far as you're aware, it may indeed be the situation that

24 people kept their uniforms -- people who were in the reserves kept their

25 uniforms at home.

Page 2468

1 A. I know nothing about that.

2 Q. Now, just in relation to that question I was asking you about

3 Jovanovic: What was he actually wearing?

4 A. He was wearing an olive-drab military uniform. I believe that I

5 have described it several times. I believe that this uniform belonged to

6 the reserve troops of Bratunac municipality.

7 Q. Yes. And now, Mr. Hasanovic, you also indicated in your evidence

8 that you went to the sports hall, the school building, the Vuk Karadzic

9 building, and you said that three soldiers were torturing and killing

10 people, whereas the others were either guarding the door or they were

11 standing in the corridors or they were in front of the entrance to the

12 school building. And you were asked this question: "Were these the same

13 soldiers you described, that is -- described earlier, that is, local

14 soldiers?"

15 This is at page 21 of the transcript, Your Honour, from

16 yesterday.

17 And your answer was this: "The ones at the entrance and in front

18 of the entrance were soldiers from the town of Bratunac and the

19 neighbouring republic, and in the school itself, there were soldiers who

20 identified themselves as Arkan's men. They told us that they were paid to

21 do what they were doing. They also told us that they would make more

22 money if they killed more people."

23 Do you remember that answer?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. Yes. Now, these soldiers that were at the entrance and in front

Page 2469

1 of the entrance, what were they wearing?

2 A. They were wearing military uniforms that I have already described

3 as belonging to the reserve military, and they mostly had rifles. Some of

4 them had automatic rifles and there were even some who had semi-automatic

5 rifles.

6 Q. And the people who identified themselves as Arkan's men, what were

7 they wearing?

8 A. They mostly had pistols. I did not see any of them having rifles.

9 Q. Yes, but what were they wearing in terms of clothes,

10 Mr. Hasanovic?

11 A. One soldier, whom I described as being the number one among them,

12 the one who carried out murders, had an SMB olive-green/grey overalls, in

13 fact. He had no headgear. He had an earring in his ear. And another

14 soldier had the summer uniform which I described several times.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hasanovic. Now, you -- further on in your evidence

16 yesterday, you indicated that you were taken in some lorries to Pale. Do

17 you recall that evidence?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you said that you were escorted by the soldiers of Republika

20 Srpska, dressed in military uniforms. Do you recall that evidence?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, can you describe that uniform for me?

23 A. I think we have said quite a lot about that uniform. There were

24 SMB, that is, olive-green/grey uniforms, and also camouflage uniforms.

25 Q. That's it?

Page 2470

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, you recall when you commenced giving

3 evidence yesterday that His Honour the Presiding Judge asked you to make a

4 solemn declaration?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. And you recall that that solemn declaration is that you will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And, of course, Mr. Hasanovic, you realise that this Court is here

10 to hear the complete truth, not just what suits one side or the other?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that this Tribunal takes the solemn declaration very

13 seriously, as you do?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, do you recall when I asked you these questions yesterday:

16 "Now, this other person, another person you've mentioned here, for

17 example, Hasib Hasanovic." I asked you: How did he die? And you said:

18 "Again, I heard that Hasib Hasanovic, who was the school principal, that

19 he was killed. I heard that he was killed. However, I did not witness

20 that. In my second statement that I gave to the OTP, I didn't mention him

21 because I did not learn any additional information about him, so I

22 couldn't be sure whether he was killed or not."

23 Then I asked you who told you that he was killed. "I was told

24 that by the people who were with me in the camp or exchanged, either in

25 Visoko or in the hospital in Zenica. They told me that they heard that

Page 2471

1 the school principal, Hasib, had also been killed."

2 Then I asked you: "Now, Mr. Hasanovic, did you know Hasib

3 Hasanovic?" You said: "Yes, I knew him but I did not have any contacts

4 with him. I knew that he was the school principal. I knew of him." Then

5 I asked you: "Now, of course, I think you realise, Mr. Hasanovic, that,

6 obviously, some of the information you hear from other people can be

7 mistaken or erroneous. You appreciate that fact, don't you?" And you

8 said: "Yes, I'm absolutely clear on that." And then I said: "Because

9 apparently Mr. Hasib Hasanovic --"

10 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, could you please slow down when you are

11 reading, please.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. I do apologise to the interpreters, Your

13 Honour. I think I was going way too quickly.

14 Q. "Because apparently Mr. Hasib Hasanovic is alive and well and

15 lives and works today in Tuzla as an educational inspector." That was my

16 question. And your answer was: "Yes, I've heard that. I heard that

17 later after I had given my statement to the OTP."

18 Now, you recall those questions and answers yesterday,

19 Mr. Hasanovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, you did not tell the Court that Mr. Hasanovic

22 was still alive and wasn't actually dead until you realised I knew he was

23 alive. That's correct, isn't it?

24 A. Yes. I didn't say it, and nobody asked, anyway. In the statement

25 that I gave to the investigators in Germany, I had not mentioned Hasib,

Page 2472

1 and I did not know for sure that he was dead. I thought it was not

2 necessary to speak any more about it.

3 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, when I asked you the question: How did he die?

4 You could have said: Well, actually, he's not dead. I learned that after

5 I gave my second statement.

6 But you didn't do that, did you, Mr. Hasanovic?

7 A. I don't remember being asked that, and I don't remember these

8 answers.

9 Q. Sorry? You don't remember being asked "How did he die?"

10 yesterday, by me?

11 JUDGE ORIE: I'll read the transcript to the witness.

12 Mr. Hasanovic, yesterday Ms. Loukas asked you: "Now, this other

13 person, another person you've mentioned there, for example, Hasib

14 Hasanovic." You said: "Yes." Then Ms. Loukas asked: "How did he die?"

15 And your answer was: "Again, I heard that Hasib Hasanovic, who was the

16 school principal, that he was killed. I heard that he was killed.

17 However, I did not witness that. In my second statement that I gave to

18 the OTP, I didn't mention him because I did not learn any additional

19 information about him, so I couldn't be sure whether he was killed or

20 not."

21 That is the complete testimony, at least the relevant part.

22 Ms. Loukas, please proceed.


24 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, you've heard His Honour the Presiding Judge

25 read out that particular portion of your evidence yesterday. You didn't

Page 2473

1 tell the Court he wasn't dead, did you, or that you'd heard he wasn't

2 dead?

3 A. I said exactly what the Honourable Judge has just read out.

4 Q. And, of course, when I asked you the question: "Now, of course, I

5 think you realise, Mr. Hasanovic, that obviously some of the information

6 you hear from other people can be mistaken or erroneous. You appreciate

7 that fact, don't you?" And your answer was: "Yes. I'm absolutely clear

8 on that." And you didn't say at that point either that: Yes, I realise

9 that, because in 2000 I was told he wasn't dead. You didn't bother to

10 mention it at that point, did you?

11 A. I thought that, in my first and in my second, most important,

12 statement, I did not mention Hasib Hasanovic, and I shouldn't have said a

13 word about it anyway.

14 Q. Now, of course, you'd been in contact with the Prosecution when

15 you found out this additional information between the year 2000 and now.

16 You didn't bother to tell them during that period?

17 A. As far as the Prosecution is concerned, I talked to them very

18 briefly, and all of these discussions took place in the past month or two

19 months. And we mainly discussed the terms of my arrival here, my travel.

20 Q. Okay. How about the proofing session that you had this week,

21 which I think you gave evidence about earlier today, took about four or

22 five hours? Do you recall that proofing session earlier this week?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. From which five pages of additional proofing notes were produced?

25 Do you recall that proofing session?

Page 2474

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, I think the point you'd like to make is

3 perfectly clear to the Chamber.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour. In that case, there's just a

5 couple of questions left, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Okay.

8 Q. So you didn't tell the Prosecution in the proofing session; I

9 appreciate that. Now, but when you were in court and I asked you this

10 question yesterday, when I was asking you about paragraph 1 of your March

11 2000 statement, I said: "And you pointed out in the statement that you

12 gave the ICTY Prosecution investigators that you wanted to clarify

13 something, and that was at the time of your statement. You'd made some

14 references to men being dead but later you found out that they were

15 actually alive." Do you recall that aspect of your statement? And then

16 you went on to give a long answer. You said: "Yes, I do, and I will

17 gladly clarify for you." And you described two men. And at the end of

18 that answer you said: "Basically I'm talking about two men of Serb

19 ethnicity that I was mistaken about."

20 Do you recall that question and answer, Mr. Hasanovic?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. But the fact is, Mr. Hasanovic, you were also mistaken about a

23 Muslim man, and you didn't bother to mention him at that point.

24 A. Right. I didn't bother because I was focusing on the things that

25 are included in my statement that I had given to ICTY investigators here

Page 2475

1 in The Hague.

2 Q. Perhaps, Mr. Hasanovic, you were focusing on matters that might be

3 helpful to the Muslim cause rather than the Serb cause. Perhaps that was

4 what was on your mind, Mr. Hasanovic.

5 A. No. I had no thought of helping or blaming one side or the other.

6 I thought that I should do my best to recount all that I had seen and

7 experienced before this Honourable Court, in the best way I can.

8 Q. Just one further question, Mr. Hasanovic. In response to my

9 question yesterday, when I said to you: "Because apparently Mr. Hasib

10 Hasanovic is alive and well and lives and works today in Tuzla as an

11 educational inspector"; and your answer was: "Yes, I've heard that. I

12 heard that later, after I had given my statement to the OTP. When I

13 visited Bosnia, I heard that Hasib was alive, but that was in the year

14 2000, in July or August, when I -- before I went to America."

15 And then His Honour the Presiding Judge asked you a question. He

16 said: "Would you allow me just to check. Is he one of the two persons

17 you just mentioned that you said you learned later on that they were still

18 alive, or is this a third person?" And your answer was: "That is a third

19 person. In the meantime, I found out about him, between the first

20 statement I gave to the Bosnian authorities and the second statement I

21 gave to the ICTY investigators. He is the third person I learned about.

22 That's why I didn't mention him before."

23 Do you see that answer? Sorry. Do you recall that answer?

24 A. I remember the answer, but I don't remember exactly that I said

25 that I had heard about him between these two statements. I remember

Page 2476

1 saying that I had heard about it after giving these two statements, when I

2 was on a visit to Bosnia.

3 Q. Okay. That's page 73 of the transcript, Your Honours.

4 So, in answer to my question, you say that you heard about it

5 after you gave the statement to the Prosecution, but in answer to His

6 Honour's question, you say that you heard about it between the two

7 statements. So, Mr. Hasanovic, which is it?

8 A. I don't remember saying that I heard about it between the two

9 statements. It is quite possible that I wasn't expecting at all to be

10 asked any questions apart from what is covered by my ICTY statement.

11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, it may be helpful if Mr. Hasanovic is

12 referred to the full text of his answer. I think Ms. Loukas has quoted to

13 him part of his answer, but he provided a further clarification where in

14 fact it seems that he stated something in respect of finding out

15 information between two statements, and then immediately said: "-- after

16 giving those two statements." So if that could be put to him in full, he

17 may be able to clarify it.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas. It's clear that the witness gave,

19 on your first question, before we knew about whether there was a third

20 person or not, he gave detailed information about when he learned it. And

21 then when I asked him: "Is he one of the two persons you just mentioned

22 that you say you learned later on that they are still alive, or is this a

23 third person?" The witness said: "That is a third person. In the

24 meantime, I found out about him between the first statement I gave to

25 Bosnian authorities and the second statement I gave to ICTY

Page 2477

1 investigators." And then it stops. Whatever, that's a sentence which

2 seems to be not complete. And then he says: "He's the third person I

3 learned about, so that's why I didn't mention him before."

4 It is clear that there is some inconsistency in this answer. And

5 if you wanted to draw our attention to that, you succeeded in doing so.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. That was the text of

7 the answer I read out, so I'm not quite understanding the point that

8 Mr. Margetts made.

9 JUDGE ORIE: What part was missing?

10 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if I may, at a further juncture, if I

11 may read from the text -- I don't think we have the same reference numbers

12 on the text, so if I could just read from the text. He says -- the

13 witness said: "I wouldn't say, though, that I made an error. I heard

14 about two of these three people between two statements that I have given,

15 and I found out about one more person after those two statements. And

16 since that happened after I talked to the investigators, I haven't

17 mentioned it until now."

18 And he has mentioned three people; two Serbs and the third person

19 being Mr. Hasanovic.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's, of course, not part of his first

21 answer, and I did understand that Ms. Loukas wanted to focus and

22 concentrate mainly on this answer given to my question.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Now, it would be helpful if I had the particular

Page 2478

1 reference to that question that Mr. Margetts was talking about.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, that's, in my LiveNote, on page 74,

3 line 17.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Where he says: "I wouldn't say, though, that I made

6 an error."

7 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct. Okay.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, you've heard me read out those -- the answer

9 you gave me first. You've heard me read out the answer you gave His

10 Honour. Now, you've heard the Prosecution read out the other answer;

11 right? So in relation to my question, you're saying that it was in the

12 year 2000, in July or August. In relation to His Honour's question,

13 you're saying it was between the first statement and the second statement.

14 In relation to a further question from me, where I say to you: "So when

15 you referred to that correction in your statement, that being the

16 correction in relation to the people dead but not dead, you referred to

17 there being two people that you'd made an error about. But there's, in

18 fact, a third person that you've made an error about, but you didn't refer

19 to that in your evidence today. That's correct, isn't it, Mr. Hasanovic?"

20 Your response was the response read out by Mr. Margetts: "Yes, I wouldn't

21 say, though, that I made an error. I heard about two of these three

22 people between two statements I have given, and I found out about one more

23 after giving those two statements."

24 So you're telling His Honour that it was between the two

25 statements and you're telling me that it was after those two statements.

Page 2479

1 Which one is it?

2 A. I personally cannot put everything in exact chronology. But the

3 gist of my statement was that I heard reliable information, verified

4 information, about two people, according to which they were still alive,

5 and I later heard about a third person, after giving two statements. And

6 I said I was unwilling to say anything about that third person until I've

7 checked personally myself.

8 Q. Who did you say that to?

9 A. I just said this here, as part of my testimony at this trial.

10 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, the fact is, on your solemn declaration, you did

11 not give the Court the whole truth. That's the situation, is it not?

12 A. I believe that I have said the truth to the best of my

13 recollection, in the chronology as I could best remember it. If you ask

14 me during the cross-examination about the third person, my answer could

15 have been confusing, and you later asked me about another two people. The

16 point is that I was unwilling to say anything about Hasib because I wasn't

17 sure whether he was alive or dead.

18 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, when you walked into this courtroom, you knew that

19 he was alive.

20 A. Yes, I knew he was alive, but I never thought about it.

21 MS. LOUKAS: No further questions, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Loukas. Is there any need to

23 re-examine the witness, Mr. Margetts?

24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, just one very small matter.


Page 2480

1 MR. MARGETTS: And, Your Honour, if Mr. Hasanovic could be given a

2 copy of his B/C/S proofing notes.


4 Re-examined by Mr. Margetts:

5 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, in the course of the examination by Ms. Loukas, you

6 were asked about arms held by MUP members. Could I refer you to paragraph

7 2 of the proofing notes in front of you, in particular the second sentence

8 of paragraph 2, and I'll read that to you: "Whilst they asked for the

9 division to allegedly protect the Serbs, after two or three days, this

10 appeared not to be their objective because they disarmed the Muslim

11 members of the MUP and sent them home." Is that correct? After the

12 division, did the Serbs disarm the Muslim members of the MUP?

13 A. Yes, that is correct. They did.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, that's all we have.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you,

18 Mr. Hasanovic.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, I should like to ask you

21 two little questions. The first concerns what you said about the time

22 when you were in that sports hall. You said that a commander had come and

23 ordered that you be given water and food. Do you remember who that

24 commander was and to which unit he belonged?

25 A. I don't exactly know who he was. He was an officer wearing a

Page 2481












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2482

1 military uniform whom I hadn't seen in Bratunac until that moment.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So it was the uniform of the

3 former JNA?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you had the impression that

6 the guards were not actually obeying orders; rather, everybody did as they

7 pleased?

8 A. The moment when he entered the gym, the sports hall, he shouted at

9 them at first: What are you doing to these people? or something like

10 that. And he chased them away. And they obeyed him. But actually, those

11 were not the guards. Those were the three men who carried out the

12 murders, who did the killing.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So we can deduce that those

14 guards were not actually following orders; they were acting, so to speak,

15 against the orders?

16 A. In my view, those who did the killing were the guards, and in the

17 presence of the troops, they -- sorry. In the absence of the army, they

18 committed these crimes, and the army, when they found out about this,

19 tried to intervene.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] If I understand you well, in the

21 absence of the troops, they did that, and when the army found out what had

22 been going on, the army wanted to install some order; is that true?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And then you received water and

25 food?

Page 2483

1 A. Yes, but may I expand a little, Your Honours?

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, if you could do it in just a

3 few words, please.

4 A. Yes. We were very happy to see this officer, because we believed

5 that he would save us, those of us who had remained alive. However, when

6 they left, the people who had been killing returned and the situation

7 continued until late in the evening on the third day. Then the troops

8 returned and told us that we would no longer be ill-treated, that this

9 would be the end of our sufferings.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And another

11 clarification, please. You said, in paragraph 24 of your statement -- I'm

12 going to quote in English: [Previous translation continues]...

13 [Interpretation] Can you please confirm a certain date or is it the case

14 that you don't remember the exact date when this happened?

15 A. Can you please be more specific as to what date are you referring

16 to?

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Paragraph 24 of your statement.

18 A. Are you referring to the date when we were loaded onto the trucks

19 and taken to Pale?

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No. No. I'm going to quote in

21 English: "The day after the police department split -- [In English] the

22 Serbs were wearing their own Serbian uniforms..."

23 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, Mr. Hasanovic has the B/C/S copy of

24 his proofing notes before him and not a copy of his statement.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then --

Page 2484

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- statement. Mr. Hasanovic, there was some

3 confusion about the document you had in front of you.

4 A. Yes. The exact date is something that I can't remember, but I

5 believe that it was the 11th of April. I can't be sure, however.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] However, my point is as follows:

7 Are you sure that on the following day, when you say on the following day,

8 does that mean in the broader sense the following day?

9 A. Yes. If we're talking about the sequence of events, it's very

10 different to put them in a certain order. They were very quick

11 developments, very sudden developments, but I believe that it was one or

12 two days after the police department split, not more than that.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14 [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, I have a few questions for you as

16 well.

17 You told us that at the entrance of the sports hall, there were

18 the local soldiers, whereas in the school building there were Arkan's men.

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Did they communicate with each other; and if so, how?

21 Or were they operating totally independent of each other?

22 A. I can't tell you exactly what sort of communication they were

23 using. The one standing at the door after their departure, or the moment

24 when there was somebody at the door, they would tell us that they couldn't

25 do anything, that they couldn't help us, that they couldn't do anything.

Page 2485

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This is an indication of that Arkan's men were

2 rather in control, and those at the door could not interfere in whatever

3 way what happened inside; is that a correct understanding of your answer?

4 A. Your Honour, I don't know what was going on between them. After

5 their departure, the people at the door were much kinder to us, and they

6 showed much more understanding towards us.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. Then, finally, I'd like

8 to know exactly when for the first time you heard, whether it was a

9 rumour, whether it was somebody who told you, about Mr. Hasib Hasanovic

10 still be alive. So I'm not asking about whether you thought that

11 information to be reliable at that moment, but when, for the very first

12 time, you heard about Hasib Hasanovic still being alive.

13 A. The first time I heard that was when I went to Bosnia in July

14 2000. I heard it from a friend in Tuzla.

15 JUDGE ORIE: From a friend in Tuzla. Were you in Tuzla at that

16 time or did he give you a phone call from Tuzla? You were in Tuzla?

17 A. I was in Tuzla, and in random conversations I learned that Hasib

18 was alive. I didn't know where he was, however.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You did not know that he was in Tuzla at that very

20 moment; is that correct?

21 A. No.

22 JUDGE ORIE: This friend of yours who told you, was he from

23 Bratunac or was he from Tuzla?

24 A. Those were people from Bratunac, but they had resided in Tuzla for

25 a while.

Page 2486

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what was the occasion that caused them to

2 tell you that Hasib Hasanovic was still alive? Was it -- were you

3 discussing schools? Were you discussing people that had disappeared?

4 Were you discussing -- what was the context in which it came up?

5 A. We were talking about everything: People who had been detained,

6 exchanged information about the camps that they were detained, and Hasib

7 Hasanovic's name came up in one of those conversations. Somebody said

8 that he was alive and that he was somewhere, alive and well.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Usually, you emphasise that someone is alive if one

10 would think that a person is dead. Did you indicate something about his

11 death or that you heard about his death?

12 A. I believe that I spoke about the statement that I gave to the

13 ICTY, and within that context, I said that I didn't know anything about

14 Hasib's lot. To my question, my friend replied that Hasib was alive and

15 that the information that I had was incorrect, that it was not true that

16 the school principal Hasib Hasanovic had been killed.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this answer.

18 Did the questions of the Bench trigger any need to put further

19 questions to the witness?

20 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Same for the Prosecution, as I see from nodding.

22 Mr. Hasanovic, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd

23 like to thank you for having answered a lot of questions from both parties

24 and from the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

25 Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness out of the

Page 2487

1 courtroom.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Before we adjourn, I'd like to bring to the attention

4 of the parties that where Mr. Hasanovic recognised his name on the list of

5 401 persons, that he had the B/C/S version in front of him, which is a

6 handwritten version, where Mr. Hasanovic seems to appear as Hasanovic

7 among other Hasanovics, whereas in the English version, however, it is

8 transcribed as Husanovic. To the extent that could create confusion, I

9 tried to compare how a U is written in this handwriting and now an A is

10 written in this handwriting. And it seems to me, at first sight, that

11 there's an error in the transcript into English.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn until 10 minutes past 11.00. And

14 may I take it, then, that the Prosecution will call its next witness?

15 Yes. We'll adjourn until 10 minutes past 11.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.13 a.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we give an opportunity to the Prosecution to

19 call its next witness, Madam Registrar, I'd like to go through the

20 exhibits tendered through Mr. Hasanovic first.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P72, witness statement of Resid Hasanovic,

22 dated 7th of April, 2000, in English; P72.1, the B/C/S translation.

23 P73, map of Bratunac town, pre-marked by witness Hasanovic.

24 P74, a CD with video of persons accommodated in Visoko sports

25 hall; P74A, transcript of P74 in B/C/S; P74A.1, English translation.

Page 2488

1 P75, set of two stills from Exhibit P74.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then two other matters in relation to the testimony

3 of Mr. Hasanovic. The Chamber might try to verify what exactly, on the

4 basis of the B/C/S tape, the answer Mr. Hasanovic gave to my question as

5 to the second -- the third person or not, so that we at least are sure,

6 while assessing the testimony of Mr. Hasanovic, what he actually said as

7 an answer to that question. If we have verified that, we'll inform the

8 parties about it so that you know what our basis of understanding is on

9 the basis of the tape, B/C/S tape.

10 That's point one. Then I have another question just for you,

11 Ms. Loukas. I don't know whether -- you're not obliged to give an answer,

12 but you put a question to the witness in respect of an incident that took

13 place in Kravica where two Serbs were killed. Is that somewhere in the

14 earlier evidence that we learned about that, or is it something unknown to

15 us now? Because the witness then answered that he knew about an incident

16 in Kravica where two Muslims were killed, and that sounds familiar to our

17 ears, to the extent that we heard testimony about an incident in Kravica

18 where two Muslims were killed. But you -- it appears that you had

19 something else in mind. If you'd like to -- if it's unknown to us, you

20 can just keep it the way it is, or we'll hear what evidence the Defence

21 would come up in the near future -- or in the later future, but it just --

22 it did not ring a bell, at least not to me. So if you'd say: Okay,

23 that's fine, then we leave it as it is. If there's any confusion, then

24 perhaps you could help us out.

25 MS. LOUKAS: No, there's no confusion, Your Honour. That's a

Page 2489

1 matter that obviously we will be attending to in the Defence case.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll wait and see what happens, yes.

3 Your next witness.

4 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, just to be sure: We moved for

5 admission of those exhibits that were --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We still have to give a decision, and as you

7 know, we usually do it at the end, and I did not hear of any objection, so

8 they are admitted into evidence.

9 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. If I may now be excused

10 from the Court and hand over to Mr. Harmon.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please feel free to go, Mr. Margetts, if you

12 want to.

13 Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

14 courtroom.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Before we go to that, Your Honour -- sorry.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE ORIE: The verification of whether there are any protective

18 measures in place with the next witness learns us that there are none.

19 Ms. Loukas.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. Just in relation to the

21 question you asked me just previously, I'll check the transcript, but in

22 fact what occurred was that I asked him about an incident in relation to

23 Serbs by Muslims in that particular place, and he responded: No, the

24 incident I know about is two Muslims being killed. But there wasn't -- in

25 my questioning, I didn't say specifically that two Serbs were killed.

Page 2490

1 JUDGE ORIE: I'll check it right away, and if I made a mistake, I

2 apologise for it.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE ORIE: I'll do it at a later stage.

5 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour?

6 JUDGE ORIE: I'll do it at a later stage, Ms. Loukas.

7 Good morning, Mr. Alic. Mr. Alic, before giving testimony in this

8 court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

9 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

10 the truth. The text is handed out to you now by the usher. I invite you

11 to make that solemn declaration.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Alic. Please be seated. You'll first

17 be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.

18 Mr. Harmon, you may proceed.

19 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President; good morning, Your

20 Honours --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor, please.

22 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President; good morning, Your

23 Honours, counsel.

24 Examined by Mr. Harmon:

25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Alic. Mr. Alic --

Page 2491

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. -- I'm going to ask you questions about your background. I'm

3 going to ask you merely to verify the data that I give you. Let me give

4 you the data and then ask you to verify it. You were born on 7 February

5 1955, you're a Bosniak, you're married and have four children, you were

6 born in the village --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Don't answer me, Mr. Alic, until I've finished giving you all of

9 the data and then I'll merely ask for a single answer to verify what I've

10 given you.

11 You were born in the village of Blagaj Japra in the municipality

12 of Bosanski Novi, where you lived until 1992, when you became a refugee.

13 Your schooling consisted of primary school and later you passed an

14 examination for being a merchant. In Blagaj Japra, you and your wife had

15 a small grocery store. Is that information correct?

16 A. Absolutely correct.

17 Q. Now, you were in the JNA for 15 months and you served in the years

18 1973 and 1974, and you suffer a physical disability, which is the

19 permanent loss of the sight in one eye as a result of events which you

20 will be describing to this Trial Chamber; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Alic, I'd like to present my first exhibit, which is a

23 statement of Mr. Alic. It is an English and B/C/S statement that was

24 given by Mr. Alic on the 12th of March, 2000. In this statement of yours,

25 Mr. Alic -- a copy of the B/C/S version will be placed in front of you.

Page 2492

1 It has numbered paragraphs and copies of the English version of the

2 statement will be distributed to the Judges and to the parties. And while

3 these statements are being distributed, Mr. Alic, would you kindly take a

4 look at the statement in B/C/S in front of you and just examine it.

5 A. I don't understand your question. You want me to look at the

6 front page only?

7 Q. Well, Mr. Alic, let me ask you in just a minute.

8 MR. HARMON: First of all, could I get an exhibit number for this.

9 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number is P76, and the translation

10 P76.1.


12 Q. Mr. Alic, in front of you is P76.1, which is a statement that you

13 gave to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 12th of March, 2000. Could

14 you just take a look at that statement, the whole statement, very quickly,

15 and confirm that that is the statement that you provided to the Office of

16 the Prosecutor and you signed. You don't have to read the whole thing;

17 just glance through it and confirm that the statement in front of you is

18 your statement.

19 MR. HARMON: While Mr. Alic is reviewing his statement, Your

20 Honour, may I get an estimated time when we will conclude the first --

21 when we will next break?

22 JUDGE ORIE: The next break will presumably be at approximately a

23 quarter to 1.00.

24 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

25 Q. Mr. Alic, have you reviewed that statement and is the Prosecution

Page 2493

1 Exhibit 76.1 your statement?

2 A. Yes, I have reviewed it, and yes, it is my statement, signed by me

3 on the last page.

4 Q. And other than some minor corrections, which we will make in the

5 course of your examination, does this recount the events accurately?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. HARMON: Now, Your Honour, I am going to proceed under Rule

8 89(F), and with this statement, but I'd like to summarise the written

9 evidence of that statement before I start to go into clarifications.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Harmon.

11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'll summarise the statement now.

12 Mr. Alic is a Bosniak who was born in the village of Blagaj Japra,

13 which is located in the Japra valley in the municipality of Novi Travnik.

14 The village --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bosanski Novi.

16 MR. HARMON: I mixed my Novis up. Bosanski Novi. This village

17 consists of approximately 500 houses and approximately 2.500 inhabitants

18 at the time when Mr. Alic was residing there.

19 He lived in that village until the 9th of June, when he, his

20 family, the other villagers from that village, and Muslim refugees who had

21 been removed from other Muslim villages and who were residing in the

22 village, were all forcibly expelled from Blagaj Japra.

23 The statement, in part, touches on some background before the

24 conflict and describes, in part, an event in March of 1992, when a

25 neighbour of Mr. Alic's who was a Muslim policeman from the town of

Page 2494

1 Bosanski Novi was dismissed from his position because he refused to wear a

2 uniform that had a Serb insignia.

3 During the period prior to the conflict, there was a conflict

4 going on in Croatia which was adjacent to the municipality boundary of

5 Novi Travnik. The Muslims --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Is this again Bosanski Novi?

7 MR. HARMON: I keep saying -- I'm sorry, Your Honour. The Muslims

8 in Blagaj Japra refused to participate in the war in Croatia, and there

9 was a deterioration of the relations. As a result, the Muslims, according

10 to Mr. Alic, were perceived as enemies of the Serbs. Additionally, Serb

11 nationalistic songs were transmitted on the radio and Serbs started to say

12 that what had happened to the Croats would happen to the Muslims. This

13 and other provocations by the Serbs caused fear in the Muslim community.

14 On the 9th of May, 1992, Serbs announced over Bosanski Novi radio

15 an ultimatum that all Muslims were required to turn in their weapons. The

16 ultimatum demanded that weapons be turned in the next day.

17 The following day, which was the 10th of May, the SDA president of

18 Blagaj Japra, Izet Mehmedagic, collected a small number of weapons - these

19 were hunting rifles and pistols - from the villagers and took them to the

20 Bosanski Novi municipality building. Those weapons were not accepted by

21 the authorities, and Mr. Mehmedagic returned to the village with the

22 weapons.

23 That same night, a military police car was attacked. Mr. Alic did

24 not see that attack and who attacked the police car is somewhat in

25 dispute. Later that same night, the village of Blagaj Japra was shelled

Page 2495

1 by mortars. Approximately 13 shells landed in the village. The next

2 morning, the 11th of May, 1992, the witness's father and cousin went to an

3 adjacent Serb village of Radomirovac and asked the Serbs in that village

4 why Blagaj Japra had been shelled. They were told by the Serbs that the

5 village had been shelled because the Muslims had not handed in their

6 weapons.

7 Later that day, Blagaj Japra was again shelled. This time the

8 barrage was far more intense: Approximately 300 shells landed around the

9 village. And Mr. Alic and his family took shelter in the cellar of his

10 home.

11 Sometime that day, a Muslim man who is identified in the statement

12 came by the witness's house on his tractor and told Mr. Alic and his

13 family to go to the nearby village, Serbian village, of Maslorave [phoen].

14 A caravan of trucks and tractors and cars was formed, with approximately

15 1.000 Muslims, residents, in that caravan, and they then progressed in the

16 direction of Maslovare.

17 En route to that Serbian village, the caravan was stopped by a

18 barricade -- stopped at a barricade and the Muslims in the caravan were

19 disarmed of their hunting rifles and allowed to proceed. They arrived at

20 their destination and spent the night, some of them under the sky, some of

21 them in barns.

22 The following morning, military personnel arrived at the witness's

23 location. The villagers asked to be allowed to return to Blagaj Japra,

24 and a small group of Muslims were allowed to return to the village. When

25 they came back, they reported that the Serbs had raised Serb flags in

Page 2496

1 their village. Thereafter, the witness and other villagers were allowed

2 to return to Blagaj Japra.

3 En route back to Blagaj Japra, the witness observed in the

4 adjacent village, which is known as Blagaj Rijeka, which is a very short

5 distance from his village, that the mosque in Blagaj Rijeka was completely

6 destroyed and that the mosque in his village was damaged. The damage was

7 damage to the minaret.

8 After returning to his village, the witness stayed in Blagaj Japra

9 for about 15 days. During this period of time, other Muslim villages in

10 the Japra valley were shelled. A summer house belonging to a Serb located

11 near the Serbian village of Maslovare was blown up, and a Muslim house was

12 blown up. His village was hit with semi-automatic weapon fire.

13 Following the shelling of the surrounding Muslim villages, the

14 inhabitants of those villages were told by members of the Serb Territorial

15 Defence to go to Blagaj Japra, and they did. They reported that their

16 houses had been burned. The number of people in the small village of

17 Blagaj Japra swelled considerably as a result of the influx of these

18 displaced people.

19 Thereafter, negotiations between the representatives of the Muslim

20 communities, the villages of Blagaj Japra and the other villages from

21 where the displaced persons had come, and the Serbs took place in the

22 Bosanski Novi municipal building. These negotiations lasted approximately

23 17 days. According to the witness's statement, the Serbs wanted the

24 Muslims to leave the municipality.

25 The next event of importance in the statement is that on the 8th

Page 2497

1 of June, 1992, two Serb soldiers informed the occupants of Blagaj Japra,

2 not only occupants, but the people who had been displaced and who were

3 living in the village at the time, that they had to leave the village the

4 next morning.

5 The following morning, Serb soldiers came to Mr. Alic's house and

6 told him and the other occupants of the house that they had to leave the

7 house. That order was complied with. The witness and others were taken

8 to the village elementary school and detained at that location under

9 threat of arms, but later that day permitted to leave and put out on the

10 street. Mr. Alic, after leaving, was able to see in his village burning

11 houses and barns as he transited.

12 As the witness and his family went through the village, Serb

13 soldiers murdered his brother and another man who he can identify. Both

14 those murders took place in the witness's presence. Later, Mr. Alic

15 observed Serb soldiers kill three other Muslim men. And later yet, the

16 witness and other Muslims, as they transited the village, were robbed of

17 their valuables by Serb soldiers.

18 Mr. Alic and others were then ordered to go to the Japra factory,

19 and that is a factory that is located near railroad tracks. And at that

20 location, the witness was informed that Serbs would take him and other

21 Muslims to Zenica and exchange them with the Serb population from that

22 village and would move -- and those people who were displaced from Zenica

23 would move to Blagaj Japra.

24 At the factory, Mr. Alic observed the soldiers shoot and kill

25 another Muslim man. At the Japra factory, he and the other people who had

Page 2498












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2499

1 been displaced - and there's a number that we'll correct in the course of

2 the examination, but thousands, they numbered thousands - he and other

3 Muslim men, women, and children were loaded onto cattle cars which were

4 standing on the railroad tracks near the factory and transported out of

5 the municipality.

6 The train later stopped in the village of Stanari, which is near

7 Doboj, and there the army and the military police separated the men from

8 the women and placed the men and women on separate trains. There will be

9 a correction in respect of that that I have just mentioned.

10 The train, with the witness and other men, stopped at Omarska and

11 Keraterm and ultimately returned to Bosanski Novi. In Bosanski Novi, the

12 witness and approximately 750 men remained on the train cars for

13 approximately two days. During those two days, there was no food, no

14 water, no toilets. And thereafter, the train went to Mlakve. It arrived

15 there on the 11th of June. Mlakve is a suburb of the town of Bosanski

16 Novi, and there the witness and approximately 750 men were taken to a

17 football stadium, where they were detained. At their detention location,

18 the football stadium, the food was insufficient. The witness describes

19 one kilogramme of bread and weak soup for ten men per day. No blankets

20 were provided. The witness and others slept in the dressing-rooms of the

21 stadium on tile floors. There was no soap, no hot water, two toilets for

22 750 men.

23 While detained at the Mlakve stadium, Mr. Alic was struck in the

24 eye by a rifle butt, a Serb soldier struck him in the eye and he was

25 permanently blinded as a result of that strike. He did not receive

Page 2500

1 medical treatment for his injury while he was in captivity.

2 He arrived at the camp weighing 75 kilos, and when he was

3 released, he weighed 55 kilogrammes. While he was at the camp, Mlakve

4 stadium, he was never told why he was arrested or why he had been taken to

5 the camp.

6 Before leaving the camp, he was told that if he wanted to leave,

7 he had to sign a document saying that he was leaving Bosanski Novi

8 municipality voluntarily, and he had to sign away his property. After he

9 signed such a document, he was released on the 27th of July, 1992. He was

10 placed on a bus, taken to Croatia, where he rejoined his family and he

11 then left and became a refugee living in a third country.

12 The testimony in this statement relates to items of the indictment

13 that have been described in the 65 ter summary. In addition, Your Honour,

14 specifically his testimony relates to paragraph 3.1 in schedule A; in

15 schedule C points 5.1, 5.2, and 5.3; and in schedule D, points 3.6 and

16 3.9.

17 That concludes my summary, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Harmon. I take it that you want to go to

19 more detail --

20 MR. HARMON: Yes. I wish to at this point clarify other matters.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As we indicated yesterday, the Chamber would

22 very much like to receive the statements which are summarised prior to the

23 hearing itself so that we can prepare as well. So that's not for this

24 moment but for the near future.

25 MR. HARMON: All right.

Page 2501

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

2 MR. HARMON: Could I have the next exhibit, please, and it should

3 appear on the monitor. If a hard copy could be shown to the witness.

4 Since most of these -- since all of -- I should say since most of the

5 testimony of Mr. Alic relates to the municipality of Bosanski Novi, I just

6 want to place Bosanski Novi in location in respect of Bosnia.

7 Q. So, Mr. Alic, can you confirm for the Trial Chamber that the next

8 exhibit properly shows the location of Bosanski Novi in Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina.

10 A. Yes, it is here in the corner, near to the border with Croatia,

11 and it is painted red.

12 MR. HARMON: And could I have the exhibit number for that

13 particular Exhibit.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P77.

15 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

16 Q. Now, since -- I'd like to show you one other map, Mr. Alic, since

17 most of your testimony will relate to the Japra valley in Bosanski Novi

18 municipality.

19 MR. HARMON: Could I have the next exhibit distributed and a copy

20 placed in front of the witness.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P78.

22 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Krajisnik.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I please be provided with a copy

Page 2502

1 of the Prosecution exhibits.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have any extra copy? Otherwise the Bench would

3 certainly -- here's another copy.

4 Yes, there's a spare copy, so if that could be provided to

5 Mr. Krajisnik.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed -- yes, Ms. Loukas.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour. That's very helpful, in fact,

9 because we only have a black and white copy and it's more readable on the

10 colour copy for Mr. Krajisnik.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whenever another copy -- I see you have a

12 coloured copy now as well, Ms. Loukas.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

15 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

16 Q. Mr. Alic, I'd like you to confirm what I'm going to say. Did you

17 assist me in the preparation of this particular exhibit by identifying for

18 me the villages in the Japra valley that were essentially Muslim villages,

19 and are those villages Blagaj Rijeka, Blagaj Japra, Suhaca, Hodzici, and

20 Gornji Agici, and they are all marked in green? Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did you indicate for me which villages in the Japra valley

23 were mixed Muslim and Serb villages, and are those villages of Maslovare,

24 Crna Rijeka, Donji Agici, and are they marked in pink?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2503

1 Q. And the villages that are unmarked, such as Radomirovac and Krslje

2 and Josava, those are Serb villages, are they not?

3 A. Yes. Yes. All these are Serb villages. Ruzicka [phoen].

4 Q. All right.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Rujiska maybe. The interpreter isn't sure.


7 Q. Mr. Alic -- now, Mr. Alic, I'd like you to take the copy of the

8 statement that is in front of you, copy -- Prosecution Exhibit 76.1. Do

9 you have the statement in front of you? I'm going to refer you to certain

10 paragraphs that are numbered and I'm going to ask you for certain

11 clarifications.

12 So if you could take your statement in B/C/S, and the first

13 paragraph I'm going to deal with is paragraph 3 on the statement. And

14 this paragraph, Mr. Alic, relates to a neighbour who was a policeman, who

15 told you that the police had received new Serb police uniforms with Serb

16 insignias.

17 My question to you is: Who is that individual?

18 A. That was Mirso Brkic.

19 Q. Was he a neighbour of yours in Blagaj Japra?

20 A. Yes. Yes, he was.

21 Q. Did he agree to wear the new Serb uniform?

22 A. No. He refused, and the others also refused.

23 Q. And Mr. Brkic was a Muslim; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, he was.

25 Q. Now, was he dismissed from the police force and was he later

Page 2504

1 expelled from the municipality?

2 A. Yes. All Bosniaks, Muslims, who worked for the police were

3 dismissed, chased out, just as I was.

4 Q. Now I'd like to have you turn your attention to paragraph 12.

5 This particular paragraph, Mr. Alic, deals with trucks that went through

6 your village every second day with ammunition. And your statement says:

7 "We could only guess they were preparing something. I did not see when

8 the Serbs distributed weapons among themselves."

9 Let me take you a little outside of that paragraph and say: Did

10 you ever see any helicopters land in the Japra valley?

11 A. I saw that. Like villages Radomirovac, Krslje, and some other

12 places I cannot recall right now.

13 Q. And were you able to see what was in those helicopters or what

14 those helicopters were doing in those Serb villages?

15 A. Well, I couldn't see. They would land, and after half an hour, an

16 hour, they would take off again. But since it was a military helicopter,

17 I suppose it transported some military equipment, ammunition, weapons.

18 Q. Now, was this -- these sightings of the helicopters landing in the

19 Serb villages that you've identified, was that before the shooting began,

20 before your village was attacked, or after?

21 A. Before. That happened before that village was attacked.

22 Q. Now, did you have occasion at some point in time, Mr. Alic, to be

23 in the village of Maslovare and actually see ammunition in boxes?

24 A. During the time when we were detained at Rajko Hodzic's estate --

25 MS. LOUKAS: [Previous translation continues]... we are in a

Page 2505

1 situation whereby the statement has been tendered, the witness is in the

2 witness box. I think it's inappropriate for the Prosecutor to lead on an

3 area such as this.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.

5 MR. HARMON: Okay. I will withdraw the question.

6 Q. Did you have an opportunity --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, before we continue: You consistently are

8 telling us about the village Maslorave, where as it's consistently put on

9 the record that it's Maslovare, which is not the same. I take it that you

10 agree that it's Maslovare?

11 MR. HARMON: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And whenever you pronounce it again in the V and the

13 R mixing up, then it will be put in the record as Maslovare.

14 MR. HARMON: Yes. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


17 Q. Did you have occasion to see any weapons or ammunitions at any

18 point in time prior to the shooting that occurred in your village?

19 A. No. No, I couldn't -- I wasn't able to see that. I didn't see

20 anything before it was attacked.

21 Q. Well, let me see if I can re-frame the question. Did you have an

22 occasion --

23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I might just object again at this point.


25 MS. LOUKAS: The situation is, as I've already indicated, the

Page 2506

1 statement's been tendered, the witness is in the witness box, he has his

2 statement in front of him, and --

3 JUDGE ORIE: You'd rather have not the statement in front of him?

4 MS. LOUKAS: Precisely.


6 Mr. Alic, could you perhaps -- your statement, what you've told us

7 that it's your statement, just put it a bit aside because you're now

8 examined --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I can do that. No

10 problem.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


13 Q. Again, let me focus your attention, Mr. Alic. Did you have

14 occasion to be in the Serb village of Maslovare?

15 A. I don't understand exactly. Do you mean before we were attacked

16 or later?

17 Q. Before you were attacked.

18 A. Yes. I did go to Suhaca and to other places. I moved around

19 freely, normally.

20 Q. While you were in any of the Serb villages, did you have occasion

21 to see, in any of the Serb villages, any armaments, weapons, or

22 ammunition?

23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that question,

24 certainly the question in relation to ammunition has already been asked

25 and answered.

Page 2507

1 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I think I -- there's some confusion on

2 the part of the witness. I think I should be permitted to ask him that

3 question again. I will refresh his recollection with his previous sworn

4 testimony, if that's going to be an issue.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, if we would strictly adhere to question

6 asked, question answered, we would save a lot of time in this courtroom.

7 I'll allow you to do it at this moment.


9 Q. Can you answer the question, Mr. Alic?

10 A. Please, could you repeat that again? I didn't quite understand.

11 Q. When you were in the village of Maslovare, did you have an

12 occasion to see any ammunition or weapons?

13 A. No, not before the war, not before it all began, before my village

14 was attacked. I saw that later.

15 Q. Okay. Tell us about what you saw later.

16 A. Well, when we were coming back from Rajko Hodzic's place the next

17 day, we came to the shop owned by Mico Karlica, and Mico Karlica

18 personally stopped me and said: You did not turn over your pistol.

19 Before the end of this day, you have to bring it here, together with your

20 licence.

21 He offered me a beer. I couldn't refuse, because he had a couple

22 of drinks already. He brought me another beer. I had that one too. I

23 asked him to use the bathroom in his shop, and he told me to go instead

24 and use the field latrine behind his house.

25 When I went there, it was not really a toilet. It was some sort

Page 2508

1 of shed covered by paper or cardboard, and as these planks were put

2 together, you could see through them. And looking through these planks, I

3 saw some boxes with military equipment in them. I was not sure whether it

4 was ammunition or weapons, but I saw a lot of military equipment in those

5 boxes.

6 Q. All right. Thank you very much. Let's proceed. I'd like to

7 direct your attention further to paragraph 13, where you describe, in the

8 first part of that paragraph -- I will read it: "On the 9th May 1992, it

9 was a Saturday, the Serbs announced over Bosanski Novi radio that all

10 Bosniaks should turn over their weapons."

11 I have two questions for you, Mr. Alic. Did you personally hear

12 that ultimatum on the radio?

13 A. Yes. We heard that with our own ears, and even from Maslovare,

14 Ranko Gvozden came, as far as I remember, together with other man whose

15 name I can't recall right now. These two came to the village and told us

16 that we had to comply, we had to turn over the weapons.

17 Q. And did the ultimatum apply to Muslims only? Did it apply to

18 Serbs? Did it apply to Croats?

19 A. No. It applied only to Muslims, because Blagaj Japra was

20 populated by Muslims alone. There were no Serbs or Croats.

21 Q. I'm talking about the ultimatum you heard on the radio. Did the

22 ultimatum you heard on the radio apply only to Muslims?

23 A. The same thing that I heard from Ranko Gvozden, I heard again in

24 the form of a radio announcement.

25 Q. All right. Now, further to clarify what's in paragraph 13: You

Page 2509

1 describe the following day a meeting that took place at a school, where,

2 and I quote your statement: "We collected some weapons, but not too

3 many."

4 Can you inform the Trial Chamber the number of weapons that were

5 collected and the types of weapons that were collected.

6 A. Well, it was mainly hunting rifles and pistols, for which people

7 had licences, 15 or 20 rifles, a dozen pistols, et cetera. There were no

8 other weapons.

9 Q. Now, at paragraph 16, I would like to direct your attention, and I

10 will read the portion of the paragraph I'm interested in: "That night, at

11 about 2330, our village was shelled. 13 mortar shells hit the village."

12 Now, was that attack, Mr. Alic, the same day that the weapons that

13 had been collected were rejected by the authorities in Bosanski Novi?

14 A. That happened on that same day, that those weapons were turned

15 over but they just laughed and said it is not the amount that we expected

16 and that we need. And they brought -- and he -- the man who brought the

17 weapon took it home, took it back home. However, around 11.00, the police

18 patrol between Bosanski Novi and Blagaj Japra was allegedly attacked.

19 However, it was not a Muslim-organised attacked. It was orchestrated by

20 the Serbs themselves, who threw a hand-grenade, opened a volley of

21 automatic fire, and pretended that it was an attack. That happened in --

22 after that, 20 minutes later, shelling began, targeting Svorno [phoen]. I

23 believe that it was all prepared in advance, because they couldn't have

24 put up that artillery within 20 minutes and started shelling just like

25 that.

Page 2510

1 Q. Now, let me focus on something you said. You said that --

2 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, there's just a point of clarification on

3 the transcript, if I may.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas.

5 MS. LOUKAS: I'm informed by my case manager that this bit that

6 was translated here - where is it? - it was translated into English as:

7 "It is not the amount that we expected and that we need." That's what was

8 translated into English. However, as I understand it, that is not what

9 was actually said in B/C/S.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll ask the witness.

11 Mr. Alic, what was the response when these weapons were delivered

12 and, as you said, taken back again later on? What did they actually say?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Izet Mehmedagic brought this back to

14 us and said that they had only laughed. They said: That's not what we

15 asked you for. We asked from you to bring heavy weapons, not only hunting

16 rifles and pistols. We want other weapons.

17 We didn't have any other weapons. We had only those for which we

18 had licences. But those people said -- only laughed and said: This is

19 not enough. Take that back.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' apologies. We have difficulty

21 understanding the witness sometimes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whenever you have difficulties, for the

23 interpreters, then of course I could always ask the witness to repeat his

24 answer so that it becomes clearer. I do take it that it was amount rather

25 than the type of weapons which caught your attention.

Page 2511

1 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. My case manager indicated to me

2 that the translation was not appropriate.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


5 Q. Mr. Alic, in part of your answer you described an attack on a

6 military police vehicle or patrol. And your answer and your description

7 of that is based not on your personal observations but what other people

8 told you; isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Now, again, focusing on this first attack on your village that

11 took place later that night, to your knowledge, was anybody in your

12 village firing back at the locations where these shells were coming from,

13 or, in your view, was this a situation that was a combat situation?

14 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, again, I think it's inappropriate to

15 lead. I think the first part of the question is unobjectionable, but to

16 go on and express a potential view is, in my submission, inappropriate.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would say that it's rather a conclusion what

18 kind of situation it is.

19 But could you please answer the question whether there was any

20 fire coming back from the places that were shelled. Was there any return

21 fire from those places?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody fired. After we had

23 surrendered all our weapons, we had nothing to fire from. Nobody fired a

24 single bullet against them.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

Page 2512


2 Q. Let me take you to paragraph 17, Mr. Alic. And this describes the

3 following morning after the attack on your village, and it says: "The

4 following morning, Jasim Alic and Camil Alic and some other neighbours

5 went over to the village of Radomirovac and asked them why the shelling

6 happened."

7 Can you identify the relationship -- can you identify your

8 relationship to Jasmin [phoen] Alic and Camil Alic.

9 A. Jasim, not Jasmin, Alic. He's my father. Camil Alic, however, is

10 a relative, Camil, C-A-M-I-L.

11 Q. Thank you. And moving on to paragraph 18. This describes the

12 attack on your village where approximately 300 shells were launched. Can

13 you tell us, approximately how long did the shelling of your village on

14 that occasion last?

15 A. The attack started around 10.00, when my father and Camil Alic had

16 not yet arrived at the house. They had already started shelling. It was

17 around 10.00, 10.30 and lasted until around 3.00 or 4.00 p.m., until we

18 got out.

19 Q. And did you and members of your family once again take shelter in

20 your cellar?

21 A. Of course. Of course. While they shelled, we spent all that time

22 in the basement.

23 Q. To your knowledge, was anybody in your village firing weapons

24 back?

25 A. No, nobody did. Against such an armed force, it didn't cross our

Page 2513

1 minds to return fire.

2 Q. Okay. We can turn to another part of paragraph 18. Let me ask

3 you for a clarification. This paragraph describes then the arrival of

4 Hamdija Selmic and the formation of a convoy, and approximately a thousand

5 people getting into that convoy and going away from your village. The

6 question I have for you is: First of all, did these people, a thousand

7 people, were they only from your village or were they from an adjacent

8 village as well?

9 A. Not only from our villages. From Blagaj Japra too.

10 Q. Where were they from? What other villages?

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The witness said,

12 "No, only from Blagaj Japra."

13 A. The other villages, Suhaca and Kozica had not been attacked yet.

14 It was only Blagaj Japra.


16 Q. Was there anybody from Blagaj Rijeka?

17 A. From Blagaj Rijeka, people escaped to another village above or

18 overlooking our village. It was called Dervisi, a Serbian village.

19 Q. Paragraph 21, Mr. Alic. You -- to put this into context, you

20 spent the night at Rajko Hodzic's house, you spent the night there under

21 the sky and some slept in barns, and the next morning, according to the

22 statement that is in evidence, it says: "The following morning, about 10

23 small military trucks arrived."

24 Do you want to make a correction as to the number and the types of

25 vehicles?

Page 2514

1 A. No, they were not trucks. Those were those small jeeps. Four or

2 five persons can fit into one such jeep.

3 Q. Can you tell the Chamber how the people who were in those jeeps

4 were dressed?

5 A. Camouflage uniforms, military camouflage uniforms.

6 Q. Now, if we can go to paragraph 22. I'd like you to expand a bit

7 on what's in paragraph 22. Your evidence -- your written evidence says

8 that a group of men were allowed to go to your village, Blagaj Japra, and

9 they informed -- they returned and they informed you and the others that

10 "the Serbs had erected Serb flags in our village."

11 Were you told anything else about those flags?

12 A. Yes. They told us that we were free to go to our homes, that they

13 had hoisted their flags, and if anybody attempts to take those flags down,

14 they would be killed.

15 Q. When you say "they," who is "they"?

16 A. Those soldiers, our neighbours dressed as soldiers, who were going

17 about the village, who were going into the village.

18 Q. In the next paragraph, which I will read, you said: "When we were

19 on our way home, we could see that the houses in our village were burning.

20 I saw that the mosque in Blagaj Rijeka was burning. The mosque in Blagaj

21 Japra was hit with a mortar, but the minaret was still standing. The two

22 villages were neighbouring villages, divided only by the river."

23 My first question is: How many houses in those two villages were

24 burning?

25 A. Approximately three to four houses, and the mosque.

Page 2515












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Page 2516

1 Q. And the mosque in Blagaj Rijeka, what was its construction? What

2 was it made of?

3 A. It was made of wood. And since it was made of wood, both the

4 mosque and the minaret had burnt. And --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed this word.

6 A. -- was made of concrete. It was not destroyed and it was not

7 damaged by fire, and it remained standing.

8 MR. HARMON: Now --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what exactly was made of concrete,

10 because the interpreters missed a word.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The minaret was made -- the tower,

12 the minaret, the made of concrete.

13 MR. HARMON: I can clarify it, Your Honour, very quickly.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.


16 Q. Was there -- you described a wooden mosque in Blagaj Rijeka. Was

17 there also a mosque in Blagaj Japra?

18 A. Yes, there was one. That's the one I said was hit. But the

19 minaret wasn't destroyed. It was hit, but the minaret remained standing.

20 Q. And so when you referred to a minaret, or a concrete mosque, that

21 was the mosque in Blagaj Japra; is that correct?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 MR. HARMON: [Previous translation continues]... clarified, Your

24 Honour.

25 Q. Now, if I could have the next exhibit, please.

Page 2517

1 Was the mosque in Blagaj Japra -- what happened to the mosque in

2 Blagaj Japra after it had been damaged?

3 A. This is where the mosque was. While I was in the camp in Mlakve,

4 you can see that it was completely destroyed. I didn't see who destroyed

5 it or when. In any case, it was during -- while I was detained that this

6 mosque was razed to the ground. And you can only see its foundations,

7 nothing else.

8 MR. HARMON: And the witness has just been referring to the

9 exhibit unnumbered as yet, but that was handed to him. So if I could have

10 a number on this, we can then --

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P79.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, it bears a date on it. Could you, either

13 through the witness or by informing the Chamber, explain what the date

14 means.

15 MR. HARMON: I will be glad to do that later, Your Honour. I

16 don't have an explanation for it right now.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could you also take care that this exhibit

18 is already on our screen, at least on the video -- on the computer screen

19 already for some ten minutes. Could we wait -- because usually I do not

20 move to another channel. Could we wait to put on the screen new exhibits

21 until they are introduced. Please proceed.

22 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. For your information, this exhibit

23 relates to schedule D3.6 in the schedule.

24 Q. So this, Mr. Alic, is what is left of the mosque in Blagaj Japra;

25 is that correct?

Page 2518

1 A. Yes. This is what is left, just the concrete.

2 Q. Okay. Let's turn to paragraph 25. And I will read paragraph 25.

3 It's very short: "The following days, other Muslim villages were shelled.

4 We could hear that."

5 Now, that's the part I want some additional information on,

6 Mr. Alic. Were you in contact at that time with villagers in other Muslim

7 villages?

8 A. Yes. My mother was born in Suhaca. I had some other relatives in

9 Vozici [phoen], and I spoke to them on the phone and they told us that

10 Suhaca had been attacked and Lozici [phoen], Agici, all of those after

11 Blagaj Japra. They would first attack those villages, they would seize

12 weapons. They did the same in these villages as they did in Blagaj Japra

13 before that.

14 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, Mr. Alic, did the Muslim villages in the

15 villages that you have identified have mosques in them?

16 A. Yes, there was a mosque in Suhaca and Vozici, in Donji Agici, in

17 Gornji Agici, and all of them were destroyed, just as the one in Blagaj

18 Japra was.

19 Q. Now, if we can focus our attention on paragraph 26. I will read

20 it. Again, it's very short. I will ask you for some additional

21 information: "After they had finished with all of the surrounding

22 villages, and I mean after they had shelled them, they made all those

23 residents go to Blagaj Japra."

24 Approximately how many people from those villages came to Blagaj

25 Japra?

Page 2519

1 A. Approximately 10.000.

2 Q. And your statement goes on to say: "We asked them what happened,

3 and they told us their houses were being burned and that the Serbs from

4 the Serb TO told them to go to Blagaj Japra."

5 That is again in paragraph 26. How long did those people who had

6 been displaced from the other Muslim villages stay in Blagaj Japra?

7 A. Approximately 15 to 17 days.

8 Q. And indeed, you had an opportunity, did you not, to talk to them

9 about the events that had happened in their villages?

10 A. Yes. My two mother's brothers lived there. They stayed in my

11 house, and also some relatives from Vozici, and they told us everything

12 that had happened; the same things that had happened to us, happened to

13 them.

14 Q. Now, the next paragraph, you describe negotiating with the Serbs

15 in Bosanski Novi municipality building, and can you tell me -- first of

16 all, you didn't participate in those negotiations personally, did you?

17 A. No, I didn't.

18 Q. Who were the negotiators?

19 A. Izet Mehmedagic and Sifet Bajraktarevic. Sifet Bajraktarevic was

20 the president of the SDA in Suhaca, and Izet Mehmedagic was the president

21 of the SDA in Blagaj Japra.

22 Q. And would they keep you informed as to what was happening in those

23 negotiations?

24 A. Yes. The request was for the people to return to their homes;

25 however, this was not allowed. It was obvious that this was a case of

Page 2520

1 ethnic cleansing, as simple as that. They just wouldn't allow people to

2 return to their homes during the negotiations.

3 Q. What did they say? What was reported to you?

4 A. Izet and Sifet told us what had been told to them, and that was

5 that we wouldn't be allowed to return to our homes.

6 Q. Let me go to paragraph 28, the second sentence in that says that:

7 "On the 8th of June, 1992, at around 1700, Ranko Gvozden and Mico Dolic

8 told us we should be ready at 7.00 the following morning, as we had to

9 leave the village."

10 Can you tell me, Mr. Alic, who Ranko Gvozden and Mico Dolic are?

11 A. They were locals of Maslovare village.

12 Q. So they were Serbs; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, yes, they were Serbs. And they were not officers, they just

14 wore military uniforms.

15 Q. If we go to paragraph 29. You describe in this paragraph that

16 Serb soldiers came to your house that particular morning. They were

17 looking for your brother and others, and "they told us to leave the

18 house."

19 Now, how were those people dressed?

20 A. Some wore masks on their faces. Some didn't. Some wore military

21 uniforms. Some wore camouflage uniforms.

22 Q. Now, later in that same paragraph, Mr. Alic, you talk about seeing

23 a tank surrounded by Serb soldiers, people from reserve unit forces. Was

24 the removal of people from your village, did it appear to you to be

25 organised or did it appear to be a random event carried out by

Page 2521

1 paramilitary organisations?

2 A. It was organised. Everything was organised. First, the entire

3 Japra Valley was pushed into Blagaj Japra, and then everybody who found

4 themselves in Blagaj Japra was moved forward.

5 Q. In that same paragraph, 29, you said that after you had been taken

6 to the elementary school and then released from the elementary school and

7 put on the street, that you, and I quote: "When we walked out, we saw

8 that the houses and barns were burning."

9 Can you give us any idea of how many houses, how many barns were

10 burning?

11 A. A lot. Everything up to the school was ablaze. That's as far as

12 they reached. Not only houses, but barns, stables, haystacks. Everything

13 was ablaze.

14 Q. And during this occasion when you were taken out of your house and

15 while you were in the school and while you were then put on the street and

16 walking, did you hear any shooting?

17 A. Yes. There was shooting from all over the place; from the

18 hilltops, from everywhere. It was Serbs that were shooting at us. They

19 may have not been targeting us. I believe that they did it just to

20 intimidate us, not really to shoot at us.

21 Q. Now, turning your attention to paragraph 36. Eventually,

22 Mr. Alic, your evidence, your written evidence says that you had been

23 ordered by soldiers to go to the Japra company area.

24 MR. HARMON: And if I could have the next exhibit, please. I'd

25 like to show you a photograph.

Page 2522

1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar will first give it a number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P80.

3 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Alic, do you recognise what is depicted in photograph P80?

5 A. This is the area that is called Japra.

6 Q. And is this the area where you and thousands of other Muslims who

7 had been displaced from the village found themselves before being

8 transported out of the municipality on trains?

9 A. Well, we all gathered here, in this perimeter of the Japra

10 company.

11 Q. And from this location, you were put on trains; is that correct?

12 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour.


14 MS. LOUKAS: I think that in fact it already formed part of the

15 last question, and in that sense it is repetitive. Of course, we're all

16 known to be repetitive in court, but there really is not any point in the

17 next question, and in any event, it's leading.

18 MR. HARMON: Well, Mr. President, it's for me to determine whether

19 there's a point to the question. And second of all, there are some

20 leading questions that lead to additional questions. And that's a

21 preliminary question to get to another area of examination.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, as far as the repetition is concerned,

23 the witness asked -- answered half of the question, so I would think that

24 there's no reason to object against putting the second part of the

25 question again to him in order to receive an answer. I do agree with you

Page 2523

1 that it's leading. On the other hand, we have, of course, a relatively

2 detailed statement which it's not -- it could not bring the attention of

3 the witness to a possible answer where it has already been read to him.

4 So in respect of leading, I do agree with you that to some extent it's

5 leading, but under the present circumstances, I think it's not

6 inadmissible.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

8 MR. HARMON: This photograph, by the way, Your Honours, relates to

9 schedule C, 5.1 in that schedule.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, are the railroad tracks near this particular

11 building that is depicted in Prosecutor Exhibit P80?

12 A. Yes. On the left-hand side, only you can't see them in the

13 photos. There are railroad tracks, and there's also a road leading to

14 Prijedor. This is the Prijedor-Bosanski Novi main road.

15 Q. Okay. Now, in paragraph 39, your evidence is that: "Then the

16 Serbs told us that they would take us to Zenica and exchange us with the

17 Serb population in that village, and they would --" and it says, "moved

18 [sic] in our village."

19 Who told you that?

20 A. Mico Dolic told me that. He wore military uniform. He was

21 drinking coffee. I asked him: Mico, where are we being taken? And he

22 said: You are being to Zenica to the places from which Serbs had been

23 moved, and these Serbs are going to come to your villages. It was Mico

24 Dolic who told me all that.

25 Q. Is that the same individual who had also conveyed the message that

Page 2524

1 you had to leave your village, earlier that day?

2 A. Yes. Ranko Gvozden and Mico Dolic were together.

3 Q. Now, from this particular location, and paragraph 40 I'm referring

4 to, it says: "Around 6.00 or 7.00 in the evening, they loaded us -- all

5 of us in cattle wagons which stood outside the company."

6 Who is "they"?

7 A. Serbs, neighbours.

8 Q. And how were they dressed, those Serb neighbours who loaded you on

9 these cattle wagons?

10 A. Camouflage military uniforms.

11 Q. I'd like to show you the next exhibit, if I could.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P81.


14 Q. Will you tell us, Mr. Alic, what is depicted in P81.

15 A. You can see the trains similar to the ones that carried us. They

16 were open carriages and closed carriages. People were -- men were loaded

17 onto open carriages and women and children onto closed carriages.

18 Q. Approximately how many people were loaded onto these cattle cars

19 that you described?

20 A. Approximately a hundred. It depended on the carriage. I didn't

21 count heads, but the carriages were loaded, fully loaded.

22 Q. Okay. Let me direct your attention to paragraph 41. You say in

23 this evidence: "I would say there were about 20.000 people."

24 Just a minute ago you answered approximately 100. My question to

25 you is, Mr. Alic: How many people in total were loaded onto train cars?

Page 2525

1 A. About 15.000 altogether.

2 Q. So you want to correct, then, what is in paragraph 41. It should

3 be approximately 15.000 and not 20.000 people. Now, let me --

4 A. Yes, about 15.000. That's correct.

5 Q. When people were loaded onto those cattle cars and those train

6 cars, was any of the necessities of life provided to them? Was there

7 food? Was there water? Was there blankets and protective garments from

8 the elements? Were there sanitary facilities provided to the people who

9 had been loaded on these train cars?

10 A. There was nothing. They loaded us on the train just as they would

11 a load of cattle.

12 Q. And the people who were loaded on the train cars, what was their

13 ethnicity?

14 A. Muslims.

15 Q. What were the ages of the people who were loaded on those train

16 cars?

17 A. There were children, there were toddlers, there were one-year-old

18 babies, and there were also 80-year-old elderly people.

19 Q. Mr. Alic, could you have refused to go on the train cars?

20 A. No. No. We didn't have a choice. We had to get on the train.

21 Q. Were people -- strike that question. Okay.

22 Besides Mr. Dolic telling you information, you personally

23 information about where you might be going, were there any general

24 announcements made to the approximately 15.000 people, where they were

25 going, what would happen to them, when they would arrive?

Page 2526

1 A. He said that we were being taken to Zenica to stay on forever, and

2 that the Serbs would come to Blagaj Japra. But this was not the case.

3 This was the case of ethnic cleansing, because we never returned to where

4 we came from.

5 Q. Now, directing your attention, Mr. Alic, to paragraph 42.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that last question

7 and answer.


9 MS. LOUKAS: Obviously, the answer is not responsive to the

10 question.

11 MR. HARMON: Well, I'm not sure -- if that's an objection, I think

12 it's fair for the witness to conclude that when he and 15.000 other people

13 are placed on cattle cars and permanently removed from their municipality,

14 a characterisation of ethnic cleansing is a perfectly appropriate answer.

15 MS. LOUKAS: But, of course, ultimately, Your Honour, the

16 characterisation is a matter for the Court.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas. You could expect from the Chamber

18 that if a witness describes a factual situation and adds to that what, in

19 his view, that means in more general terms, that of course the Chamber

20 will not take that as something that it should accept. It forms its own

21 opinion on these kind of matters.

22 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


25 Q. Let me direct your attention - I'm sorry, Mr. Alic - to paragraph

Page 2527

1 41. In this paragraph, Mr. Alic, once -- to put it in context, once the

2 people were loaded on the trains and the train departed to travel, and I

3 quote: "We travelled the whole night, and early in the morning the train

4 stopped in the village of Stanari, which is close to Doboj. We were

5 ordered to go out."

6 And the next paragraph says: "Army and military police arrived

7 and they again started to separate us. They loaded all men on one train,

8 and women were loaded to another one."

9 Let me focus first on "they loaded all men on one train, and women

10 were loaded to another one." How many men were separated and put in

11 certain trains, and how many people were separated and put in another set

12 of train cars?

13 And let me re-phrase that. That's a poorly phrased question.

14 Were all the men, approximately 15.000 people who had been placed on the

15 train cars, were all the men separated or only some of the men separated

16 from the other occupants of those train cars?

17 A. Only able-bodied men were separated. The elderly and the minors

18 were not separated. They remained with the women and the children.

19 Q. And approximately how many military-age men were separated and

20 placed on separate train cars?

21 A. Approximately 750, thereabouts.

22 Q. And were you one of the 750 -- approximately 750 people separated

23 and placed in separate train cars?

24 A. I was indeed.

25 Q. Let me focus first your attention on not the group of 750 but the

Page 2528

1 other people who had been separated and placed on train cars. Do you know

2 what happened to them?

3 A. As we were loaded onto the cars, they closed the doors and we

4 didn't know what happened to the others, we didn't know what would happen

5 to us. They closed the door so we couldn't see where we were being taken.

6 We could see very little through the bars, and we could only guess that we

7 were returning, returning in the direction of Banja Luka. We didn't know

8 anything about what was happening with the women and the children.

9 Q. What happened to the women -- let me strike that. Was your wife

10 and were your children separated from you and placed in a different set of

11 cars?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what happened to your wife and children and the other people

14 who were with them?

15 A. We didn't know at that time. We didn't know where they went. We

16 didn't receive any information as to where they were being taken and what

17 would happen to them.

18 Q. Did your wife later tell you what happened to her and to your

19 children and to the others?

20 A. Yes. Once we were rejoined in Karlovac, once when I was released

21 from the camp, she told me that they were first taken to Doboj and then

22 transferred to Croatia, to Slavonska Pozega, and from there they were

23 transported to Zagreb.

24 Q. What happened then to you --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, may I just interrupt you. How much time

Page 2529

1 you think you would still need? Because you asked an indication from my

2 side when we would have our first break. That's approximately the time.

3 But if you'd finish in a couple of minutes, then we could continue.

4 Otherwise, we have to have the break now.

5 MR. HARMON: I think we should have the break now. It will not be

6 much longer after the break, but --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since you indicated that the examination of

8 this witness would take you one hour and a half, you have six minutes left

9 to the one hour and a half.

10 We adjourn until five minutes past 1.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.46 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

14 MR. HARMON: Your Honour asked me a question about the numbers

15 that appear on the photographs.


17 MR. HARMON: I can -- and the dates. The dates that appear on the

18 photograph, I am informed, appear to be the date of the investigator from

19 the Office of the Prosecutor who took the photograph, and the number in

20 brackets appears to be the sequence number of the photographs.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear. Please proceed.


23 Q. Mr. Alic, we left off your testimony in the village of Stanari,

24 and you had told us about the separation into two groups, your group

25 consisting of approximately 750 men. While you were at that location in

Page 2530

1 the village of Stanari, were any provisions provided to you and to the

2 other people who were in the trains? And when I say provisions, I mean

3 was any food, water, any protective kind of garments, any sanitary

4 facilities made available to you?

5 A. No, we did not receive anything. If anybody needed to go to the

6 bathroom, they had to simply do it right there by the carriage. They did

7 not provide us access to toilets or anything.

8 Q. And I take it when you re-boarded the train, no additional

9 amenities were provided to you.

10 A. No. No, nothing was provided to us, nothing at all.

11 Q. All right. Now if we could go to paragraph 43 of your evidence.

12 In paragraph 43 of your evidence, Mr. Alic, you have described earlier the

13 odyssey that took you to Omarska, then to Keraterm, and ultimately your

14 return to Bosanski Novi. And you arrived in Bosanski Novi. You remained

15 in the wagons, in the train cars, for two days, which is described in

16 paragraph 43.

17 My question, then, is: When you arrived at the -- when you

18 arrived at the Mlakve stadium, you say: "They let us leave the wagons."

19 Later on you say: "They took us to the stadium. They lined us up there

20 and wrote down our names. They gave us one sardine can." And it goes on.

21 My question is: Who are you referring to when you say "they"?

22 A. I mean the Serbian troops.

23 Q. Now, when you arrived at the stadium itself, did you -- were you

24 free to move around in the stadium?

25 A. No. We could only occupy one half of the stadium. We couldn't

Page 2531

1 cross that line.

2 Q. And were you -- actually, let me show you the next exhibit,

3 please, and it is an exhibit of a stadium at Mlakve and it has certain

4 markings on it. I'm going to ask you about this exhibit after I get a

5 number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P82.


8 Q. Now, Mr. Alic, did I show you a copy of a photograph yesterday,

9 and did you show me where, in the stadium, guards took positions with

10 guns, where there was a machine-gun post, where the changing rooms were

11 located, and where the entrance to the changing rooms were located?

12 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

13 Q. And does this photograph -- is this a photograph of the Mlakve

14 stadium and the markings where you indicated those guns -- those positions

15 were located?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, how far away from this stadium, Mr. Alic, was Croatia?

18 A. Well, behind this stadium, there is one auxiliary stadium. You

19 know what approximately the width of that stadium could be. And then if

20 you go on, you come across a river, and across that river is Croatia.

21 Q. So from the stadium, you can see Croatia?

22 A. You can. Right from here, on the right side, from the right angle

23 of this picture, you can see some houses at the other end.

24 Q. Let me show you another exhibit, which I assume will be P83. Is

25 that correct? Thank you.

Page 2532












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2533

1 What is depicted, Mr. Alic, in Prosecutor's Exhibit P83?

2 A. You see the stadium where we were detained. But we were only

3 allowed to go halfway across the stadium, towards the railroad. We were

4 not allowed to go any further.

5 Q. When you say "stadium," Mr. Alic, are you referring to the

6 football field that appears in the centre of this picture?

7 A. Yes. That's what I mean. Yes.

8 Q. Were you -- could you just briefly describe for us what the daily

9 regimen was while you were at the Mlakve stadium. When did you get up in

10 the morning? What did you do throughout the day? When were you fed?

11 A. We didn't have our watches on or anything. We would get up in the

12 morning. It would be misty usually, because there was a river nearby.

13 Sometimes they would line us up and make us stand there in the sun.

14 Sometimes they would make us eat grass or do other things.

15 Q. Were you free to leave that stadium?

16 A. No. No way. The guards were all around us.

17 Q. Now, in paragraph 44, you describe the incident where you lost

18 your eye. Can you explain in more detail what happened and the

19 circumstances under which you were struck.

20 A. I can describe it. One day they told us all of a sudden to go in

21 quickly, and they pushed us with rifle butt. One of them hit me on my

22 back. Another one grazed my eye, and I lost the sight in that eye. I

23 couldn't see who it was who hit me.

24 Q. And --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, before the break, I said there were six

Page 2534

1 minutes left.

2 MR. HARMON: Almost done, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You took already eight. Could you finish as soon as

4 possible.

5 MR. HARMON: Yes.

6 Q. Let me ask you in respect of the medical help: Was there medical

7 help available at the Mlakve stadium?

8 A. No way. What kind of medical help do you mean? There was not

9 even food, let alone medical assistance.

10 Q. All right.

11 MR. HARMON: Let me just direct Your Honours to paragraph 45, the

12 last line in paragraph 45, the second word, which is "drug." Is, I'm

13 told, should be "drag," from the Bosnian Serb version of the statement. I

14 think that's an error. It should read: "We had to drag heavy rollers."

15 But let me move on.

16 Q. Let me show you the next exhibit, please. While this next exhibit

17 is being prepared -- I'll just tell you what this exhibit is. It will

18 arrive faster than I can tell you. Take a look at this exhibit, please.

19 Do you recognise that exhibit, Mr. Alic?

20 A. Yes, yes, I recognise it.

21 Q. Can you tell the Judges about this exhibit, please.

22 A. I can. While I was at the camp, my sister was taking care of

23 paperwork for me, because Serbs said whoever wants to leave Bosanski Novi

24 will be released after some paperwork. My sister, Minka Mujic, did this

25 because she was out there, free, and she brought these papers to the camp

Page 2535

1 when she was finished but they still wouldn't release me. After that,

2 they forced us to sign some papers they produced themselves in order to

3 release us, papers saying that we were pledging all our property to

4 Republika Srpska and that we are leaving Bosanski Novi of our own will.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, what number would this exhibit have?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P84.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


9 Q. Why did your sister bring this document? What was the purpose of

10 her going and getting this document?

11 A. All of this was done so that I would be allowed to leave the camp.

12 Q. All right. Now, finally, you indicate in paragraph 47 that:

13 "Before we left the camp, they told us that if we wanted to leave, we had

14 to sign a document that we were leaving Bosanski Novi municipality

15 voluntarily, and they made us sign off our property."

16 Again, who is "they"?

17 A. Men came in uniforms, carrying these papers. Everything was

18 already filled in. They only added our names, and we were only supposed

19 to sign. It was said that we were leaving Bosanski Novi for Croatia.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon --

21 MR. HARMON: One final exhibit.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we really have to -- it was indicated one

23 hour and a half. You've gone over it for some seven to eight minutes.

24 The next exhibit would then get number P85, Madam Registrar.


Page 2536

1 Q. Mr. Alic, briefly tell the Judges what this exhibit is.

2 A. This is my own certificate, saying that I spent four to five days

3 in the camp.

4 Q. And I note, Mr. Alic, that the date that is referred to in this

5 exhibit says from 9 June 1992 to 23 July 1992. You actually arrived in

6 Bosanski Novi on 9 July and arrived in the camp on 11 -- I mean 9 June

7 1992 and arrived in the camp on 11 June 1992; isn't that correct?

8 A. Yes, but I'm also counting the two days we spent in train cars.

9 I'm counting from the day when we were expelled from our homes.

10 Q. Mr. Alic, thank you very much for your examination and your

11 testimony today.

12 MR. HARMON: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

14 Is the Defence ready to start cross-examination of Mr. Alic?

15 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, as I indicated this morning prior to my

16 completion of the cross-examination of the previous witness,

17 Mr. Hasanovic, I've received some additional material this morning just

18 before court that I haven't had the opportunity to review properly.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I take it that we can't finish the

20 cross-examination of the witness anyhow before --

21 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour?

22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll not be able to finish the cross-examination

23 anyhow, I take it, unless you say -- so you would have some extra time and

24 then the witness would return this afternoon --

25 MS. LOUKAS: Well, yes, Your Honour. I think that what I was

Page 2537

1 proposing --

2 JUDGE ORIE: You indicated that the next witness would give his

3 examination -- his testimony in chief first.

4 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct, Your Honour, yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think there was no -- there were some practical

6 problems, perhaps. Have they been solved, Mr. Harmon? Mr. Tieger said

7 that he would do everything to have the next witness available, but we

8 have another problem. When we're talking about the next witness, I'd

9 first have to go into private session for one moment, but not after having

10 asked this witness to leave the courtroom just for a second.

11 Mr. Alic, may I ask you just to follow the usher for one second.

12 We have to discuss a procedural issue. But we'd rather do that in your

13 absence. That's got nothing to do with yourself.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mr. Usher, could the witness remain standby.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to turn into private session.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2538












12 Page 2538 redacted, private session














Page 2539

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Alic, you will be examined by Defence counsel,

Page 2540

1 but not at this very moment. I expect this to take place tomorrow. So

2 you're free to go at this moment, but we'd like to see you back tomorrow.

3 It's for all kind of practical reasons that we changed the order a little

4 bit, and if it disturbs you, we apologise for that. Mr. Alic, may I

5 instruct you not to speak with anyone, not with counsel, not with other

6 people, not to discuss with them the testimony you have given until now

7 and the testimony you are still about to give, presumably tomorrow.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mr. Alic out

10 of the courtroom.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 JUDGE ORIE: And then I did understand there are no protective

13 measures whatsoever required for the next witness.

14 MR. HARMON: That's correct. And Your Honour, if I may briefly go

15 into private session to raise one issue with you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then return into private session for a

17 moment.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2541

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open Session]

18 JUDGE ORIE: We are then in open session again.

19 Please proceed. Mr. Hannis, it's you who is going to examine the

20 next witness.

21 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Hidic.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Since we have one second left anyhow, I saw that in

23 the statement of Mr. Alic, several times mjesna zajednica, or zajetnica

24 [phoen] was mentioned of which I do not know what it means. It was not

25 translated into English. Perhaps the interpreters could help us out.

Page 2542

1 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, that means local commune.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

3 Good afternoon, Mr. Hidic. Can you hear me in a language you

4 understand?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving evidence in this Court, the Rules of

7 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

8 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The

9 text is now handed out to you by the usher. May I invite you to make that

10 solemn declaration.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hidic. Please be seated. You'll be

16 here with us this morning only for a limited, very limited period of time,

17 but we'll continue this afternoon. So even if it's only 10 to 15 minutes

18 at this moment, we'll continue later on.

19 You'll first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.

20 Mr. Hannis, please proceed.

21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Examined by Mr. Hannis:

23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I would like to begin by having the

24 witness shown his prior statements. We have three separate statements he

25 made to the ICTY, including a supplement.

Page 2543

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist.

2 MR. HANNIS: And in chronological order, the first one is in

3 November 1999. There was a July 2000.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the numbers for these exhibits would

5 be --

6 THE REGISTRAR: The numbers would be P86 and P86.1; P87 and P87.1.

7 JUDGE ORIE: P86 would then be for the November 1999 statement,

8 and P87 would be for the July of 2000 statement.

9 THE REGISTRAR: And P88 will be for the 21st of May, 2003

10 statement.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, we should have also a supplement,

13 or an addendum dated the 31st of July, 2001.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Which would be P89.

15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, madam.

16 Q. Mr. Hidic, have you had a chance to review those prior statements

17 of yours before coming into court today?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did you have any changes or additions you wanted to make to

20 those statements prior to affirming to the Court that those are your true,

21 full, and accurate statements in this matter?

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, at this time I would like to move the

25 admission of these three statements and the supplement.

Page 2544

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They are admitted into evidence, in the absence

2 of any objection.

3 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. And then at this time, Your Honour,

4 before I ask the witness any questions concerning those, I would also like

5 to have the Court consider some additional prior evidence of Mr. Hidic.

6 First let me ask him a couple of questions regarding that.

7 Q. Mr. Hidic, in addition to those written statements you provided to

8 the OTP, have you testified here at the Tribunal in another matter in May

9 of last year, in the Brdjanin case?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And yesterday and today, have you had a chance to review that

12 prior testimony with the language assistant here at the OTP?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And at this time, can you confirm to the Court that that prior

15 testimony is your true, full, and accurate evidence in this case?

16 A. Yes, I can.

17 MR. HANNIS: And Your Honour, pursuant to Rule 92 bis (D) we would

18 ask the court to consider that as also the evidence of Mr. Hidic in this

19 matter.



22 Q. Now if we have time I'd like to read a brief summary of that

23 evidence. I don't think it will take more than five minutes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We could then read it. Mr. Hidic, Mr. Hannis

25 will now first read a summary of your statements, and then further

Page 2545

1 questions will be put to you in that respect, but that will be only this

2 afternoon. So I'd like you to listen carefully and try to remember for

3 this afternoon what Mr. Hannis read to you.

4 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Your Honour, this witness is a Bosnian Muslim who lived in

6 Bosanski Petrovac in 1992. In his evidence, he details the discriminatory

7 and illegal treatment of non-Serbs in Bosanski Petrovac during that year.

8 The witness provides evidence about SDS policies in Bosanski

9 Petrovac, including the termination of non-Serbs from their employment,

10 restrictions on their movement, and illegal detentions. He describes also

11 the discriminatory nature of a disarmament campaign, which was directed

12 solely at the non-Serb population in Bosanski Petrovac. After the

13 deadline for surrender of weapons pursuant to that policy expired, all the

14 Bosniak areas were surrounded and blocked, and the houses were searched.

15 The witness will tell you there was no armed resistance by the Bosniak

16 population at that time.

17 Mr. Hidic also talks about the persistent state of fear among the

18 Bosniak population in Bosanski Petrovac during 1992. He describes the

19 detention facilities in the area, and he gives secondhand descriptions

20 based on accounts provided to him by his relatives. He also recounts the

21 destruction of non-Serb property and cultural monuments that occurred in

22 Bosanski Petrovac during 1992.

23 The witness further provides evidence about numerous killings in

24 Bosanski Petrovac, and the lack of any punishment for the known

25 perpetrators. He describes how non-Serbs had to exchange or surrender

Page 2546

1 their real property before being allowed to leave the municipality. He

2 recounts the mass expulsion of the Bosniak population from Bosanski

3 Petrovac in late September 1992.

4 In late 1995, the witness returned to Bosanski Petrovac, when the

5 VRS had left the area. He discovered many original SDS documents in the

6 municipal archives and he received others from other municipal employees.

7 He has furnished those original documents to the OTP and he has identified

8 and verified those documents in his prior statements and testimony before

9 this Tribunal.

10 Your Honour, his evidence is relevant to paragraphs 7, 19, 20

11 through 23 and 27, as well as counts 3, 7, and 8 of the consolidated

12 indictment.

13 That concludes my reading of his summary, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't think it's of any use to put the first

15 questions to the witness at this moment, where we have to stop anyhow in a

16 couple of minutes.

17 Ms. Loukas.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, after the witness is excused for this

19 session, there's just a matter I'd like to correct on the record briefly.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Hidic, you're excused for the moment.

21 Usually I instruct witnesses not to speak with anyone about their

22 testimony, but you've answered only one or two questions until now. We'd

23 like to see you back at 3.30 in Courtroom II this afternoon. So if you'd

24 now follow the usher.

25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we understood it was 4.00.

Page 2547

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There was some misunderstanding about the time

3 of the Status Conference that would precede our hearing of this afternoon.

4 We'd like, then, to see you back at 4.00 this afternoon in Courtroom II.

5 Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness out of the

6 courtroom.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, we can hear what you'd like to tell us in

10 open session?

11 MS. LOUKAS: Of course, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what -- oh, no. It was -- no. I

13 remember it was about the transcript, yes, correction.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour?

15 JUDGE ORIE: It was about a correction for the transcript.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, that's correct. I just want to correct the

17 record, in fact. Just on this question of whether the material is new or

18 not new.


20 MS. LOUKAS: Now, I know that Mr. Harmon persists in the view that

21 disclosure to the previous legal team is disclosure for all purposes.

22 Now, Your Honour, with the greatest of respect to Mr. Harmon and his view,

23 I do not. And I consider that continuing circular debates on this

24 particular impasse between Prosecution and Defence are futile and arid and

25 a waste of court time. And I want to place that on the court record, Your

Page 2548

1 Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record.

3 Mr. Harmon. You might not have heard me this morning, Mr. Harmon,

4 when I said that since we'd like to use our time as efficiently as

5 possible for this week, because it is -- we'd like to -- not to send

6 witnesses home when they've not been examined. And I left it to the

7 parties to address the matter in great detail in one week from now on. So

8 if you'd like to -- well, just to oppose to what Ms. Loukas said, fine;

9 but I don't want any long debate at this moment on this issue.

10 MR. HANNIS: I understand, Your Honour. We've had this debate

11 many times. We can raise it with Your Honour tomorrow morning. We can

12 raise it at any other time, but I think the issues have been addressed

13 earlier and repeatedly.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And you disagree with Ms. Loukas. Yes.

15 MS. LOUKAS: There is just one further point, very briefly, Your

16 Honour.


18 MS. LOUKAS: It refers to that question -- I'm sorry. Your

19 Honour, my microphone again. Just one issue very briefly. It's in

20 relation to an issue that Your Honour raised. Just in relation to that

21 aspect of the cross-examination of the previous witness, Mr. Hasanovic,

22 and I would direct Your Honours' attention to page 80 of the transcript.


24 MS. LOUKAS: The question I asked was: "Now, just going to events

25 in Bratunac prior to the events you've spoken of today, were you aware of,

Page 2549












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2550

1 in approximately the 3rd of September, 1991, that there was shooting --"

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down because of the

3 translation.

4 MS. LOUKAS: -- Muslims towards the population --

5 JUDGE ORIE: You're asked to slow down.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Your headphones not on, you missed the -- could you

8 please read it again and a bit slower.

9 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, certainly. The point doesn't require much

10 labouring, Your Honour. It's just that I indicated when Your Honour asked

11 me the question that the -- your paraphrasing from the particular aspect

12 of the transcript was perhaps not reflected in the transcript. And I just

13 wanted to point out that page 80 is a little different.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I've taken that point.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If there's nothing -- Mr. Stewart.

17 MR. STEWART: There is. Mr. Harmon's problem: He comes into

18 court and then we regard him as a fair target, Your Honour. No. What I'm

19 about to say is a very mild thing. We were puzzled by Mr. Harmon inviting

20 the court to go into private session a moment ago to mention the meeting

21 tomorrow morning. Because the court had taken precisely the opposite view

22 the other day, that it was important that the public should know that such

23 meetings were taking place.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon -- I think, as a matter of fact, since we

25 do not know exactly why Mr. Harmon - perhaps I should have asked him -

Page 2551

1 wanted to go into private session. You should have raised the issue in

2 private session and if we would have agreed, we would have repeated it in

3 open session.

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --

5 JUDGE ORIE: But let's -- Mr. Harmon, this Chamber has indicated

6 in public that the Chamber had some involvement in meeting between the

7 parties. That's public and for purposes we did not want to hide this for

8 the public. Is there any -- okay. Then this matter has been settled as

9 well. Then it's just -- it was a --

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I say, the reason I raised it in

11 open session is because I'm afraid is seemed simply blindingly obvious in

12 the light of the court's attitude the other day that Mr. Harmon can't

13 actually really have intended that this matter should be kept under wraps

14 in that way.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That has been clarified now. There's no issue in

16 that respect any more.

17 MR. STEWART: May I mention one other point?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but please keep in mind that we should have

19 stopped five minutes ago.

20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've offered the courtesy of the other

21 counsel to say what they wanted to say. The fact that I'm just unlucky to

22 be last should nevertheless allow me --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Say whatever you'd like to say.

24 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. It's only this in relation

25 to the meeting tomorrow morning is why I raise this, just so Your Honour

Page 2552

1 knows, from a practical point of view, that we have prepared a batch of

2 material. It is with -- it's not voluminous. It's with the Prosecution

3 because we've had extensive discussions already in the course of this

4 week. The Prosecution are invited to consider it. I hope it won't take

5 very long because it represents some discussions already, so it's very

6 close, I think, to an agreed batch of material anyway. And I would hope

7 that we would be able to -- of course the Prosecution reserve their right

8 on this because they haven't seen the final version, but I would hope that

9 we would manage to get this to the Trial Chamber perhaps within the next

10 hour, I don't know, so that you will have this material in preparation for

11 the meeting tomorrow morning.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm in this house anyway until 7.00 today, so

13 whenever it's available to us, it's fine.

14 We'll then -- but not after having thanked the interpreters and

15 the technicians for the additional time. I wouldn't say they granted us,

16 but we took from them. We'll adjourn until 4.00 this afternoon in

17 Courtroom II.

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.52 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.29 p.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I think there's no need to call the

21 case because we're resuming the morning session. Or perhaps, just for

22 certainty's sake, could you please call the case, the same one as this

23 morning, please.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

25 Momcilo Krajisnik.

Page 2553

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I never know whether this is a break or a new

2 hearing.

3 Just to summarise, the information I received is that the

4 Prosecution will not call any more witnesses after Mr. Hidic this week,

5 and the one remaining witness is cancelled?

6 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I do understand that he'll not be called at

8 a later stage, but he'll not be called at all.

9 MR. HANNIS: We do not intend to call him at all, at this point,

10 Your Honour; whether the Court or Defence counsel wish to is a

11 possibility.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I also understand that the parties would

13 agree if we would hear the testimony in chief this afternoon by Mr. Hidic,

14 and that tomorrow Mr. Hidic and the other witness who is still waiting to

15 be cross-examined would be cross-examined. Is that correct?

16 MR. STEWART: Yes, including this witness, please.


18 MR. STEWART: That would be very helpful, and we feel confident of

19 being able to finish tomorrow anyway.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You know that was one of the major aims of this

21 Chamber, not to send any witnesses home that should have to return at a

22 later stage.

23 Yes, Mr. Hannis.

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, and in the event that we happen to

25 finish early tomorrow with some time unused, we are ready to perhaps read

Page 2554

1 in some 92 bis summaries for witnesses from Brcko, Bratunac, Bosanski

2 Novi, if the Court considers that a good way to use available courtroom

3 time.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Of course it also depends on the Defence, but would

5 you oppose against 92 bis, that is, 92 bis witnesses without

6 cross-examination, I then take it?

7 MR. HANNIS: Correct, Your Honour, in the interest of the public

8 trial concerns expressed earlier.

9 MR. STEWART: Well, in fact that's already been very kindly

10 mentioned to us by the Prosecution and we indicated we have no objection

11 whatsoever. It seems a perfectly sensible use of time if it's available.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We might then hear some 92 bis evidence

13 tomorrow without cross-examination.

14 Mr. Hannis, then, please proceed.

15 Mr. Hidic, there's a lot of practical discussions over your head,

16 more or less. You'll now be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.

17 You'll not be examined today by counsel for the Defence. That will take

18 place tomorrow.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.

20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. Hidic, welcome back. From your prior testimony in your

22 witness statement, sir, I know there are some facts already in evidence.

23 I would like to lead you briefly through those before I have some more

24 detailed questions for you. But I understand, sir, that you are a Bosnian

25 Muslim, or a Bosniak, who lived and worked in Bosanski Petrovac; correct?

Page 2555

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And your employment before the war began in 1992, was as a skilled

3 machine locksmith; is that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And what company did you work at or work for?

6 A. The name of the company was Bosnaplast, and it was located in

7 Bosanski Petrovac.

8 Q. And I also understand from your prior testimony that although you

9 were not a member of the SDA in 1992, you currently are the president of

10 the SDA in Bosanski Petrovac.

11 A. Yes. Until last year; from 1999 until 2003.

12 Q. And could you tell the Court if I'm correct when I say that the

13 ethnic distribution of the population in Bosanski Petrovac in 1991 was

14 approximately 3:1, or 75 per cent to about 25 per cent Serbs and Muslims?

15 Is that correct?

16 A. If you want me to give you a precise answer, according to the 1991

17 census, the correct ratio was 75:22.5 Serbs and Bosniaks; the remainder

18 went to the so-called "others," which also comprised a number of Croats.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Now, how did the ethnic groups get along in

20 Bosanski Petrovac before 1992?

21 A. Well, what I can tell you is that up until that period of time,

22 the relations in Bosanski Petrovac had been very good. People were

23 tolerant and respectful of one another.

24 Q. Beginning in 1992, did you notice a change in the relationships

25 between or among the ethnic groups in Petrovac?

Page 2556

1 A. Obviously, with the changes that occurred at the time, which were

2 the result of the multi-party elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

3 situation in Bosanski Petrovac changed as well. People were no longer as

4 tolerant as before. However, the situation was still satisfactory, so to

5 speak, up until the breakout of the war in 1992.

6 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about the multi-party elections and

7 how that came out in Bosanski Petrovac.

8 A. Concerning Bosanski Petrovac only, but also taking into account

9 the larger situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Yugoslavia generally

10 speaking, there was a lot of pre-electoral activity, a lot of campaigning

11 in the municipality. We also started establishing political parties.

12 That is, the political forces that would eventually take over power from

13 the former regime in the former Yugoslavia. Work was done on the

14 establishment of political parties in Bosanski Petrovac as well. The Serb

15 population was more numerous, and they started with establishing political

16 parties, which was also followed by a lot of campaigning which started in

17 Bosanski Petrovac at that time.

18 The Bosniak population followed suit, and so, generally speaking,

19 there was a lot of activity which was geared towards the multi-party

20 elections which were to take place very soon.

21 Q. And what were the results --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

23 MR. HANNIS: Sorry.

24 Q. What were the results or the outcome of the elections in your

25 municipality of Petrovac?

Page 2557

1 A. After the official elections in Bosanski Petrovac, the results

2 concerning the local government, the local assembly, Municipal Assembly,

3 were as follows: 50 to 33. So the SDS was represented with more than 60

4 per cent. Nine -- actually, eight seats went to the Party of Democratic

5 Action. The remainder went to the former Reformists, that is, a movement

6 for the reform of Yugoslavia. And a certain number of seats went to the

7 SDP, the former Communists. But the majority of seats went to the

8 representatives of the SDS.

9 Q. And as a result of those elections, how were the various offices

10 in the municipality divided up? Can you tell us who was president of the

11 municipality, who was head of the police department, et cetera.

12 A. After the results were declared officially and when implementation

13 of the results started, there were a certain number of agreements that

14 were reached by the political parties that had won the election. The SDS

15 attempted to get most of the positions, and I think that they eventually

16 did get most of the offices in Bosanski Petrovac.

17 Q. Can you tell us who the president of --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.

19 MR. HANNIS: Sorry again.

20 Q. Can you tell us who the president of the Municipal Assembly was

21 and what his ethnicity was.

22 A. The president of the Municipal Assembly was Rajko Novakovic, a

23 Serb by ethnicity.

24 Q. And the head of the local police, his name and ethnicity, please.

25 A. The head of the local police, that office was subject to a certain

Page 2558

1 number of negotiations, because the Serb party insisted on having that

2 office. I know that it was eventually Dragan Gacesa that got the post,

3 who had, prior to that, worked in Bihac. So he was brought from Bihac to

4 Bosanski Petrovac and appointed to the position of the head of the police.

5 Q. I believe from your prior testimony you indicated that there was

6 some controversy about that position. Had the Muslims or the Bosniaks

7 appointed a candidate for that position?

8 A. Bosniaks would have preferred the position of the commander of the

9 police station in Bosanski Petrovac, so this was subject to a lot of

10 discussions, and it was at one point promised to the Bosniak side that the

11 office would go to them, which, however, was never implemented. There was

12 no appointment of their candidate to the position of the chief of police,

13 because the SDS did not want to yield them that particular office, which

14 was coveted by the SDA.

15 Q. After the elections and in early 1992, did you -- I think you

16 indicated you began to see a change in the relations between the various

17 ethnic groups, and particularly the Serbs and Muslims, or Bosniaks, in

18 Petrovac. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, it is. As time went by, as the new government was being

20 established, a number of conflicts at the same time were breaking out

21 elsewhere in Yugoslavia, first in Slovenia and then in Croatia, which was

22 followed by the secession of Slovenia. So, obviously, the situation

23 exacerbated in the municipality of Bosanski Petrovac, which, up until that

24 time, had been a peaceful and tolerant milieu. So the overall events had

25 an impact on what was going on in the Bosanski Petrovac municipality,

Page 2559

1 where the situation was getting worse by the day.

2 Q. And can you give us some examples of how the situation got worse?

3 How did that manifest itself in everyday life for an average Bosniak or

4 Muslim in Petrovac?

5 A. What I can say is, for instance, that when it comes to the

6 implementation of the election results and the distribution of posts

7 amongst the parties, their initial agreement was not respected, and all

8 offices, all positions, were kept by Serbs. The SDS managed to retain all

9 key positions in Bosanski Petrovac. If that's what you had in mind

10 concerning the setting up of the local government on the basis of the

11 election results.

12 Q. You indicated it seems that there was some pre-election agreement

13 between the parties about distribution of post or positions?

14 A. Yes. There had been an agreement between the political parties

15 that took part in the elections.

16 Q. Do you know what that agreement was or what it called for?

17 A. I'm really not familiar with how they envisaged it, what they

18 thought the executive government would be. As for the legislative power,

19 I know that the president of the municipality was a Bosniak, a member of

20 the SDA. This was Mr. Mustafa Ferizovic.

21 Q. You indicated that the Serbs maintained most of the top positions

22 in Petrovac, and you said the situation got worse. Were there certain

23 restrictions or limitations placed on Muslims in the municipality

24 beginning in early 1992?

25 A. The events surrounding the election results took place in 1991.

Page 2560

1 As for the beginning of 1992, the situation was already completely

2 different. It was bordering on conflict, or a war. Actually, the war was

3 going on in the immediate vicinity of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in

4 particular, the area of Bosanska Krajina. I'm referring to the events in

5 Croatia. So this atmosphere of fear, of war psychosis, influenced the

6 overall climate in the town itself, and the municipality also, generally

7 speaking. And I'm referring both to the population and the political

8 figures, people who were in the government.

9 Q. And how did this atmosphere of fear play out in the town? What

10 were the things that happened to the local people?

11 A. Specifically, as early as 1991, mobilisation started, or rather,

12 voluntary engagement. Men went to war to Croatia. At the same time, the

13 police reserve force was also mobilised. As for the economy, that area of

14 life also experienced a lot of changes in terms of local leaders and

15 managers. The production side experienced more difficulties. This was

16 all reflected in the everyday life in our municipality. The general

17 situation had an impact on the everyday life in the municipality.

18 Q. And I understand that atmosphere had an effect on everyone in the

19 municipality, but were there some effects that were different for Serbs

20 and for non-Serbs?

21 A. If you're referring to 1992, yes.

22 Q. I am. And can you tell us what those were?

23 A. At that time, a number of drastic changes occurred with respect to

24 the relations between the communities at Bosanski Petrovac. There was a

25 number of dismissals of Bosniaks, in particular after April and April

Page 2561

1 events. So in April, May, and June, there were a lot of dismissals of

2 Bosniaks. Shooting was also frequent, intimidation as well. A curfew was

3 ordered by the police at that point in time, which, practically speaking,

4 concerned only Bosniaks or Muslims and was applicable only to them on the

5 -- in the area of the municipality. So the movement -- the freedom of

6 movement was already limited. If you wanted to go to Sarajevo, for

7 instance, or leave the territory of the municipality, you needed a special

8 permit. True, we could still go to Bihac, but if you wanted to leave the

9 area of the Bosanski Petrovac municipality, it was necessary to apply for

10 a special permission.

11 So it was during that period of time that, apart from the cases of

12 intimidation, we saw the first killings, which added to the overall

13 atmosphere of fear amongst Bosniaks in Bosanski Petrovac. Bosniaks hardly

14 ever went out any more. They no longer moved so much around the town.

15 Even in those neighbourhoods, in those areas where they were majority,

16 because in those neighbourhoods as well, they were intimidated or provoked

17 by various groups who would pass by, open fire.

18 Q. And around this time, was there any local programme about turning

19 in weapons that affected Bosniaks?

20 A. Oh, yes. It was publicly declared and publicly requested that

21 Bosniaks turn in all personal weapons that they had, be it legally owned

22 weapons that they may have had as hunters or on the basis of some other

23 permit, but also illegal weapons, because some people were known to

24 possess such weapons. The deadline was 20 or 30 days, I believe, by which

25 the weapons had to be handed over to the police in Bosanski Petrovac. The

Page 2562

1 local media, in particular, the local radio, broadcast this publicly.

2 As for some people who were known to possess better quality

3 weapons, they were visited by individuals of Serb ethnicity or by

4 employees of the police or members of the army, who would take over their

5 weapons, especially when they were known to possess good-quality hunting

6 weapons.

7 Q. Do you recall approximately when this call for surrender of

8 weapons became publicly announced?

9 A. What I can tell you is that on the 27th or 28th - I cannot recall

10 the exact day - the entire town, the centre of the town of Bosanski

11 Petrovac, was blocked by the army. Several transporters or personnel

12 carriers participated in this operation, which focused on those streets

13 and those areas where Bosniaks lived. The purpose of this operation was

14 to search for weapons. I personally witnessed one such operation in two

15 or three houses on the street where I lived. Unfortunately, those who

16 were carrying out the searches did not find anything. I don't know

17 whether they had picked those locations on their free will or if they had

18 any orders to that effect, but they entered into maybe 20 or 30 houses,

19 and I am referring to the area of town where I live.

20 Q. Let me stop you there and ask you a couple of questions about that

21 answer. First you said it was the 27th or the 28th. Can you tell us what

22 month and what year?

23 A. I believe it was in May, 1992, of course.

24 Q. And I read in the English transcript where you say you personally

25 witnessed one such operation in two or three houses, and then you said:

Page 2563

1 "Unfortunately, those who were carrying out the searches did not find

2 anything." If you've said "unfortunately," can you explain why you

3 thought that was unfortunate that they didn't find anything.

4 A. I don't know why. I just happened to use that expression. I

5 really don't know why I used that word.

6 Q. Now, did your house get searched during this operation or a

7 similar operation?

8 A. No. No, it didn't.

9 Q. And do you know by whose authority or where this call for weapons

10 to be surrendered came from? You said it was announced on the radio, I

11 believe, but can you tell us by whose authority. Was it police? Was it

12 some municipal body?

13 A. I think it came from the top municipal authorities, who at the

14 time functioned as semi-military authorities. They must have issued an

15 order to that effect, which was then transmitted to the police station in

16 Bosanski Petrovac, and that was how this search and seizure of weapons

17 from the Muslim community was organised.

18 Q. I know from your statements and your testimony that you're

19 familiar with the term "Crisis Staff," but in May of 1992, did you know of

20 that term and whether there was such a body in Petrovac?

21 A. Yes, of course I did.

22 Q. Do you know who the members of the Crisis Staff were in May of

23 1992?

24 A. I know some of them. I knew who they were at the time as well, by

25 virtue of their official capacity, those who were members of the civilian

Page 2564

1 government. The president of the Crisis Staff was the president of the

2 Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Petrovac, that is, Mr. Novakovic. Then, in

3 terms of hierarchy, it was the president of the Executive Board; the

4 secretaries of the Municipal Assembly as well; the assistants, or heads as

5 they were called at the time, of various departments; the head of the

6 police station; and also representatives of the then-legal and legitimate

7 army. Because a certain number of JNA personnel had remained in Bosanski

8 Petrovac who attended those meetings, meetings of the Crisis Staff, by

9 virtue of their membership in those army units, together with the

10 representatives of the civilian part of the armed forces, that is, the

11 Territorial Defence, or whatever it was called at the time.

12 Q. And what was the ethnicity of the members of that Crisis Staff?

13 A. By and large, the members of the Crisis Staff were Serbs, and the

14 representatives of the SDS.

15 Q. Mr. Hidic, I want to jump ahead for a minute, because I want to

16 show you some documents, and in order to do that, I need to go into the

17 future a little bit. I know there came a time where you were expelled

18 from Petrovac, but then you came back in September of 1995; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what was your purpose for returning at that time?

22 A. Of course, on the 14th of September, Bosanski Petrovac was free.

23 Since I was in Bosnia and Herzegovina throughout the war, I was in Central

24 Bosnia, living in Zenica at the time, I travelled during four or five days

25 in a roundabout way through Glina and Bihac to Bosanski Petrovac, because

Page 2565

1 it was a free town.

2 Q. And when you say it was a free town, did you mean this Serb army

3 had left the area, the VRS?

4 A. Yes, absolutely. When I arrived, I didn't see a single Serb

5 soldier in Bosanski Petrovac, because they had all left. They left

6 Bosanski Petrovac on the 14th of September.

7 Q. And on that occasion in 1995 and shortly thereafter, and on into

8 1996, did you come across certain original documents of the Crisis Staff

9 and other municipal authorities still in the archives and municipal

10 buildings in Petrovac?

11 A. First of all, or rather, at first, I didn't pay any attention to

12 documents which remained in Bosanski Petrovac, in the city authorities or

13 in municipal authorities. I had to go back to Zenica a few days later,

14 because I had the task to organise the return of Bosniaks who had left

15 Bosanski Petrovac and needed to return home. It took me a month,

16 travelling around Central Bosnia, to rally Bosniaks and to appeal to them

17 to return to their homes in Bosanski Petrovac. In late October/beginning

18 of November, I returned, and when I came to the town hall, I noticed a lot

19 of documentation simply scattered around and lying on the ground in

20 corridors, because the army had simply stampeded through the building,

21 leaving a mess behind them. And we needed to put these things in order

22 and return the documentation to archives.

23 In this way, I got hold of certain documents that I found

24 scattered everywhere around the municipal building.

25 Q. And I understand that you received documents from other municipal

Page 2566












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2567

1 employees and eventually you turned over those documents to the OTP;

2 correct?

3 A. True. I asked everyone not to throw away these papers, and people

4 understood that they needed to be preserved. From that point on, they

5 started bringing me these papers, and I filed them carefully, with the

6 idea that they needed to be kept, that maybe later they will have their

7 purpose. And in this way, I managed to preserve a lot of evidence that

8 could be saved, of course, of the times in which we lived.

9 Q. As a matter of fact, in May of last year, you testified in the

10 Brdjanin case and identified and spoke about a number of those documents

11 here in this building; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have binders with approximately 45

14 documents that I would like to show the witness and I would like to tender

15 at this time. I actually only intend to ask him about four of those

16 documents. But if we could pass around those binders, I would like to

17 then discuss at least four of those documents with the witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

19 MR. HANNIS: And for the benefit of counsel and the Court, Your

20 Honour, all of these documents were items that were shown to Mr. Hidic

21 during his trial testimony in the Brdjanin case, and pursuant to Rule 92

22 bis (D) and our procedure in this Court, I would like to make an oral

23 application at this time that these documents be admitted by the Court in

24 connection with that prior testimony that has been admitted.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we'd first give a number.

Page 2568

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P90 for the binder.

2 JUDGE ORIE: For the binder. And then, Madam Registrar, since in

3 the binder we find 45 tabs, that each of these documents would then be --

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE ORIE: So it just gets one number, but if we refer to it, we

6 refer to the tab in which we find the specific documents.

7 MR. HANNIS: Correct, Your Honour. That was my understanding.



10 Q. Mr. Hidic, in that binder, you'll see the little tabs on the

11 right-hand side with the number, and the first document I want to ask you

12 about I believe is at tab 34. If you could go to the number 34 and look

13 at the document behind that tab. There should be both an English and a

14 B/C/S version of the same document.

15 Can you tell me what that document is --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


18 Q. Can you tell me what that document is in your binder, please,

19 behind tab 34. At the top, what does it say?

20 A. Serbian Republic, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Autonomous Region of

21 Krajina, Municipal Assembly of Petrovac, Crisis Staff, number 57-92. If

22 you mean the left-hand corner.

23 Q. Yes. Thank you. That's the same document I'm talking about, and

24 this appears to be the minutes of the 35th Session of the Petrovac

25 municipality Crisis Staff. And could you go down to where it says

Page 2569

1 "agenda," and item number 1 on the agenda. Could you read out what that

2 says.

3 A. "Consideration of the situation and measures to remove the

4 consequences of combat operations, or war operations." That is one item.

5 Q. Right.

6 A. I don't see any agenda here.

7 Q. It appears that the agenda was adopted unanimously. And the

8 paragraph following that that starts "The president gave a brief

9 description..." would you read that for us, please.

10 A. "The president gave a brief description of the situation on the

11 front line, indicating that our losses were two dead, 19 wounded, adding

12 that the Crisis Staff is expected to take a clear stance vis-a-vis the

13 Muslims. And military post 4552 demands that measures be taken to enable

14 them to act in an operative way and carry out activities in the rear of

15 our forces."

16 Shall I go on? "Dragan Gacesa emphasises that there is a list,

17 including 40 or so persons, who are believed to be organised as a separate

18 group or have come out with extremist, fundamentalist Islamist positions.

19 Most of them are fugitives and unavailable for questioning by the

20 authorities. Most of them belong to various citizen groups. The list

21 includes the names of people who have been found to possess illegal

22 weapons. One possible solution would be to isolate a number of such

23 dangerous persons at the police station, and the second measure could be

24 to isolate extremists, but outside of Petrovac."

25 Do you think it's necessary for me to go on reading?

Page 2570

1 Q. Let me stop you there. The next paragraph below that I think

2 indicates that the view prevailed that isolation of the extremists outside

3 Petrovac would be dangerous to those people, so it was best to isolate

4 them in a well-guarded facility on the outskirts of town; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. And underneath, there's a heading entitled "Decision" in English.

7 Do you see that in your B/C/S copy?

8 A. [Inaudible]

9 Q. And it indicates that individuals who possess illegal weapons or

10 who have been registered as Muslim extremists shall be detained and held

11 in custody?

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I -- I've got a slight difficulty

13 in that I've got my gown trapped in my chair, so I can hardly stand up,

14 but leaving that aside, may I -- I can't do it. May I take it off, Your

15 Honour? Because it's quite ridiculous. I can't stand up straight with my

16 gown in my -- may I do that?


18 MR. STEWART: Thank you. I'll try and see if I can avoid that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You've taken off your wig already, so --

20 MR. STEWART: Yes. That is as far as I'm going, Your Honour. My

21 question, getting back to serious matters, is that I'm wondering where

22 this is going, because we've had two or three questions now and this

23 witness has read passages from a meeting at which he was not present, and

24 I've been waiting to see whether it is leading to some question along the

25 lines of his being able to offer something of his own knowledge that's in

Page 2571

1 some way connected with this. Because if all he is doing is telling us

2 what the minutes of this meeting say, it isn't really evidence from this

3 witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.

5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. If my learned friend will be patient for

6 another minute or two, I do have some questions to ask the witness

7 regarding what we're reading out right now.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed. We have to wait and see

9 what happens.

10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

11 Q. And Mr. Hidic, it indicates that a certain house will be set up as

12 a detention facility. Are you aware of any detention facilities that were

13 established in Petrovac on or about this time?

14 A. No, not at that time. But a month later, yes.

15 Q. And where was that facility, and what was it called?

16 A. It was called Kozila workers' labour site. Unfortunately, that

17 facility was adjusted to become a camp, detaining about 50 to 60 Bosniaks

18 from Bosanski Petrovac.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, before we continue, could I just seek to

20 clarify something, perhaps together with the witness. On the first page

21 of this document, you read a part where VP-4552 is mentioned. Could you

22 please read that part again in your own language, or tell us what it says.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just this part: "Military post box

24 4552." VP.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please continue the next lines as well.

Page 2572

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would like to indicate that

2 they do not have the text.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Requests that measures be taken to

4 disable their operative action and activities in the rear or behind the

5 lines of our forces."

6 JUDGE ORIE: Now it is translated as to disable them. In the

7 earlier translation, we saw, and I referred to page 16, line 19, to enable

8 them. There seems to be a slight mistake. Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.

9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. And you mentioned the disarming operation that was going on in

11 Petrovac before. Were there certain Muslims or Bosniaks in town who had

12 been detained as a consequence of what was happening with that disarming

13 operation?

14 A. I believe there were people who were taken into custody and people

15 who were detained, but at the police station, not at the camp. They were

16 detained at the police station, while the activity of collecting weapons

17 was still under way.

18 Q. Thank you. Next I would like to go to another document.

19 Mr. Hidic, it's behind tab 33, the one immediately in front of the one

20 that you're looking at. And can you tell me if what you have is dated the

21 30th of June and is the minutes of the 41st Session of the Crisis Staff.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Beneath my English portion where it says "Agenda," and item number

24 1 is "Political and security situation in Petrovac municipality"; is that

25 correct?

Page 2573

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The second full paragraph after that says: "He relayed requests

3 from soldiers he had talked to for a more radical attitude toward the

4 Muslims of Petrovac." And "he" appears to be referring to Rajko

5 Novakovic, whose name appears in the paragraph immediately above. Is that

6 correct?

7 A. Give me just a minute, please. You mean paragraph 2, if I'm

8 looking at the right thing. Yes. This is a reflection of what Rajko

9 Novakovic said.

10 Q. Correct. And if you could go to the third sentence after that one

11 I just read, and it begins "The Muslims of Petrovac are behaving as if

12 they're wounded..." could you read that for us, please, and the following

13 sentence.

14 A. "Muslims in Petrovac are like a wounded beast in great terror,

15 great fear. A certain number of them have yet to be arrested, out of

16 caution, and later introduce the work obligation, because there will be a

17 lot of work involved in harvest season. I insist that a certain number of

18 motorised saws be commandeered as part of this labour work obligation and

19 placed at the disposal of the brigade."

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters repeat that these things are

21 difficult to interpret off the cuff without the text.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It would have been easier if the interpreters

23 would have been provided with an existing B/C/S copy of this document.

24 MR. HANNIS: I apologise, Your Honour. I will make sure that is

25 done differently the next time.

Page 2574


2 MR. HANNIS: And although I see that there is some slight

3 difference, it appears to be substantially the same.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it seems to be the same.


6 Q. Mr. Hidic, if you could go, then, to the heading that's called

7 "Conclusions" and read out number 1 for us. And then I'll have a few

8 questions for you.

9 A. "Until the prisons in Kozila are put in operation, organise the

10 arrest and neutralisation of everybody who is suspected to be a danger to

11 Serbs." If necessary, I can repeat: "Until the prisons, or the prison in

12 Kozila, is put in operation, make a plan to arrest and take into custody

13 all able-bodied Muslims who are suspected of potentially doing any harm to

14 Serbs."

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. Dragan Gacesa.

17 Q. If you would stop there, please, and let me ask you a question.

18 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour. I wonder if I might make a

19 suggestion. It seems -- we've got a rather unsatisfactory situation. The

20 witness is being asked to read a document in his own language, which has

21 already been translated and which we have in these bundles in English.

22 And they've presumably been translated -- I'm not in a position to judge

23 the translations, but they've been translated presumably under more

24 favourable circumstances than the interpreters face today because those

25 original translators at least had the advantage of having a document in

Page 2575

1 front of them. So what's happening is by asking the witness to read the

2 Serbian version we're ending up with what I think today's interpreters

3 would acknowledge to be, I won't say inferior but a translation in more

4 difficult circumstances, so a rather rougher translation, which is not

5 helpful at all. It would be -- again, no disrespect to the interpreters

6 saying "not helpful at all," because it's not helpful that we end up with

7 two translations.

8 Wouldn't it be more satisfactory if counsel, if he wants to refer

9 to these particular passages, were to read the English translation so --

10 identifying the passage, so the witness can follow it in the original

11 language, and then the questions, which after all presumably is the point

12 of all this anyway, whatever questions follow then from the reading of

13 this text can follow. But we'll avoid this complete mess of the public

14 transcript having the unsatisfactory translation given under difficult

15 circumstances by the interpreters.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's indicated already by Mr. Hannis that

17 next time we'll do it in a different way, such as that the interpreters

18 will have the translation available and are able to check on the reading

19 of the witness whether the translation is satisfactory. Under the present

20 circumstances, I would say that since we now get, although perhaps a

21 translation which is made on the spot, without any time for reflection on

22 details, that at least we are able to satisfy ourselves that the

23 translation as we receive it now, although not exactly the same, is in

24 line with the translation we have on paper. I do not mind if you would,

25 in cross-examining the witness, you would refer to the translation as it

Page 2576

1 appears in English on paper. To ask Mr. Hannis to read it in English

2 would, in my view, not be the most favourable solution.

3 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, that -- Your Honour has in a

4 sense anticipated my next point, but I don't quite see what difficulty

5 there would be in switching to that technique now.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hannis.

7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have no objection. I was only

8 concerned about my sore throat that I've been fighting all week, but we

9 only have two more documents to go and I'll be happy to read them.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's finish as we did it now, and let's -- if the

11 witness reads slowly, then I think we -- at least I find it very

12 satisfactory to see that even the translation that's made on the spot

13 reflects, I would say for 98 per cent, what is on paper.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: But if there would be an extra copy.

16 MR. HANNIS: I do have an extra copy.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll provide an extra copy at this moment to the

19 English booth.

20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.

22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

23 Q. That earlier sentence you read about the Muslims of Petrovac

24 behaving as if wounded and showing great fear, is that an accurate

25 reflection of the mood in the town as you told us about earlier?

Page 2577

1 A. Of course. You see that they themselves note that, the

2 representatives of authorities in Bosanski Petrovac.

3 Q. And at this time, in June, did there appear to be an increasing

4 number of detentions of Muslim or Bosniak men in Petrovac town?

5 A. I have already said which number of detainees we were talking

6 about, men who were taken into custody and detained in the Kozara camp

7 when it was put into operation. And in June, there were only preparations

8 in the run-up to this period when they would be taken into custody and

9 detained. In the meantime, a certain number of them were already in

10 prison, and the prison close to the police station in Bosanski Petrovac

11 was too small to take in everybody who was taken into custody, and

12 probably for that reason they were thinking of providing a larger

13 facility.

14 Q. Do you know what the capacity of the police station detention

15 facility was?

16 A. I know that those were basements, but you have to take my word for

17 it if I say that I've never been there. I don't know what they were like.

18 Q. And I think we can describe that as fortunate. I will take your

19 word for it.

20 Can you tell me now -- if you can set that document aside. If you

21 can go to tab 39 in the binder and look at that document. And I believe,

22 sir, that should be an August 3rd, 1992 record of the 45th meeting of the

23 commission. I'm not clear what commission it is, but it's in Petrovac.

24 Do you have that, sir?

25 A. Yes, I do, and I see it's the conclusion after item 1. But I

Page 2578

1 wouldn't know at this point ... I think that the commission in question

2 here had been tasked with gathering information on the exchange of

3 population, as they commonly referred to it in the area of Bosanski

4 Petrovac, but it was actually departures from the area. So a commission

5 of that kind I know was established at one point, and they were in charge

6 of gathering information relating to all those departures of the citizens

7 of Bosanski Petrovac from the area of the municipality. The information

8 concerned also data on their property. If I'm reading it correctly.

9 Q. Let me stop you there.

10 A. But with your permission, please. Here, the commission worked

11 only on the exchanges between Bosanski Petrovac and Bihac, both ways. So

12 they must have been working according to that kind of task or order. The

13 people in question, I think, are Bosniaks who were supposed to leave to

14 Bihac for the purpose of being reunited with their family, as it was

15 called at the time. Apparently, members of their families had left for

16 Bihac before this period of time and were now in Bihac.

17 Q. Yes. And let me ask you a couple of questions. At the top it

18 indicates who is present, and among those names are Rajko Novakovic and

19 Gacesa, Dragan Gacesa. And as I understood you told us before, that's the

20 president of the Crisis Staff and the chief of police; correct?

21 A. Yes. And also Latinovic, Bogdan, who was the president of the

22 Executive Board, the second in power, as a president of an executive

23 municipal body. Dragan Milanovic, a deputy to the Assembly. Milan

24 Vidovic, who was here by virtue of his capacity as the head of the

25 hospital. Obrad Vrzina, a military man. Jovica Sepa for the military

Page 2579

1 issues and for economics issues, and Drago Korda, who was there as a

2 representative of the Red Cross organisation.

3 Q. And I see two names below that. Can you tell us who those

4 individuals are, in the next line.

5 A. Zare Sikman was the secretary of the Municipal Assembly of

6 Bosanski Petrovac. As for Slobodan Brcin, he must have been invited to

7 attend because he was a lawyer. So they probably wanted some kind of

8 legal advice from him, or he was there in some other capacity. I'm not

9 sure exactly in which capacity he attended this meeting. Personally, I

10 know that he's a lawyer, so most probably it was because of that that he

11 was involved.

12 Q. Sir, and I see that the agenda item number 2 was to examine the

13 security situation and the question of Muslims. And in the discussion

14 about agenda item 2 that appears below, it indicates that there were a

15 number of Muslim citizens who attended the meeting and asked questions,

16 including whether Muslims in Petrovac could be guaranteed their safety.

17 Do you see that?

18 A. Yes. They're talking about a group of Muslim citizens of Bosanski

19 Petrovac who had requested to be able to attend this session of the Crisis

20 Staff, and also to be able to present their opinion or their requests from

21 the municipal authority of Bosanski Petrovac. The request in question, in

22 my opinion, must have been to leave the area, to move out from the area of

23 Bosanski Petrovac. This is a rather loose forum of citizens. They refer

24 to themselves as forum of citizens of Bosanski Petrovac. And because it

25 was impossible to reach any agreement whatsoever with this regard, they

Page 2580

1 must have tried to talk about the issue with the top municipal leaders and

2 try to find some solution for the movement of the population. Because the

3 situation had become critical for the Muslim community.

4 Q. And it appears this commission reached a resolution regarding the

5 moving out of Muslim people, and it was going to be the one to decide who

6 can leave, and the condition for leaving was that people had to either

7 exchange or give up all of their property to the state, that is, to the

8 Serbian Municipality of Petrovac. Do you see that, and is that consistent

9 with your knowledge of what happened in Petrovac?

10 A. I don't even have to look at it, because I know that what followed

11 was an increase of interest amongst Muslims of Bosanski Petrovac, and they

12 had to fill out some forms at the land survey department. They had to

13 also pay all the taxes, all the arrears that they had to pay for their

14 land so that they could obtain some sort of permission which would enable

15 them to go to the police and request formally to be enabled to leave the

16 area. This piece of paper would have proved that they no longer had any

17 obligations with respect the municipality, that all the bills had been

18 paid, and so on and so forth. A large number of citizens accepted this,

19 and soon a huge line, a huge queue of citizens could be seen at the town

20 hall, people who came there as a result of these discussions, with the

21 purpose of obtaining the necessary documents to leave the Bosanski

22 Petrovac municipality. It was there that they were issued certificates

23 whereby they were leaving their property, they were giving up their

24 property and leaving it to the municipal authorities of Bosanski Petrovac.

25 Q. And did they receive any compensation for their property that they

Page 2581

1 were giving up in order to leave, any reimbursement?

2 A. If you understood me correctly, they had to pay taxes. They had

3 to pay their electricity and water bills so that they could eventually get

4 the final certificate, which was issued by the police and which then

5 enabled them to move out from the Bosanski Petrovac municipality.

6 Q. But if I personally owned any real property, my house or the land

7 it was on, or a business, did I get any reimbursement from the city in

8 exchange for turning it over to them, if I had to do that in order to

9 leave?

10 A. Purportedly, it was done on a voluntary basis. They were leaving

11 their property of their own will to the Serbian municipal authorities of

12 Bosanski Petrovac.

13 With your permission, if I may add, I have personal knowledge of

14 that because I myself had to sign a paper of that kind. I think I still

15 have it somewhere, their certificate which contains all the information

16 about my family, members of my family, of my household, and which proves

17 that I had no obligations with respect the municipal authorities. On the

18 basis of that paper, I was issued a certificate by the police, which

19 certificate was supposed to enable me to leave the Bosanski Petrovac

20 municipality. But this, however, never took place, was never implemented,

21 until the time of my eviction, that is, the 24th of September.

22 Q. All right. And did you leave voluntarily? Would you classify

23 your departure as voluntary?

24 A. It was treated as having been done on a voluntary basis.

25 Q. But it sounds like you don't consider it voluntary. Is that

Page 2582

1 correct?

2 A. Well, I mean, who on earth would leave his or her property just

3 like that, without any compensation, without even a thank-you note? Also,

4 we were sent away with shots. Shots were heard as we were leaving. You

5 cannot talk about any generous giving up of one's property while at the

6 same time being forced to leave the town where they had lived, where they

7 were born, and the property to which they were legally, of course,

8 entitled.

9 Q. All right. And how many people left? How many Muslims or

10 Bosniaks left Petrovac by the time you left in September? If you know.

11 A. I believe their number was somewhere around 2.600 or 2.700 of

12 Bosniaks who left in the last batch. There had been a prior departure as

13 well, two busloads, I think, in the direction of Bihac, but the number was

14 maybe 100 or 150 persons. The largest number of Bosniaks were evicted on

15 the 24th of September, and the number in question is anywhere between

16 2.500 and 3.000.

17 Q. And of the total population of Bosniaks or Muslims in Petrovac

18 prior to the start of the war, what percentage would that be that left

19 during that time? If you know.

20 A. I think that a very small number of people left Bosanski Petrovac.

21 Those who did, left for Bihac. Maybe 50 people or so, maybe even less.

22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have one more document I want to ask

23 him about. I think I can finish it in about five more minutes. I'm not

24 sure when you were going to break.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I think that after these five minutes we'll adjourn

Page 2583

1 for the day, so please proceed.

2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

3 Q. Sir, if you would set that aside and look at one last document for

4 me, which is behind tab number 30. And it's a report on the events in

5 Bosanski Petrovac from June 1992 until the departure.

6 MR. HANNIS: And I have a question for the interpreters, because

7 my English translation, at the top, refers to the Bosanski Petrovac

8 Country Club, although I'm told perhaps a better translation would be the

9 Bosanski Petrovac Expatriates' Club.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Correct, Mr. Hannis.

11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. Your Honour, that English translation

12 then should be corrected, and "Country Club" will be changed to

13 "Expatriates' Club" and I will provide a corrected copy to the Court

14 tomorrow, if possible.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please do, Mr. Hannis.


17 Q. Do you see that document, Mr. Hidic? Do you know what that

18 document is?

19 A. Yes. We're talking about the Expatriates' Club of Bosniaks from

20 Bosanski Petrovac who, having been evicted from Bosanski Petrovac, arrived

21 here and found themselves in Zagreb. A large number of Bosniaks ended up

22 in Zagreb. And by establishing this club, they tried to maintain some

23 sort of link with the people from the area, also with the people from the

24 area who used to be seasonal workers in West European countries. But it's

25 a club established by evicted Bosniaks. And the natives of Petrovac who

Page 2584

1 lived in Zagreb, because a certain number of Bosniaks from Petrovac used

2 to live in Zagreb, and still do, as a matter of fact.

3 Q. And this appears to be a chronology of the events, particularly

4 events of a discriminatory nature against Muslims or Bosniaks in Petrovac

5 from June through September of 1992. Have you seen it before, and are you

6 familiar with where this information came from to go into this report?

7 A. I first came across this information after the war, that is, three

8 years later. And upon returning to Bosanski Petrovac, when some -- one of

9 the people who had been in Zagreb showed me this document. On the basis

10 of this and the statements of the Bosniaks who had been evicted from

11 Petrovac, I was able to establish that this is a true review of the events

12 in and surrounding Bosanski Petrovac between April and the 24th of

13 September, the day of the eviction from Bosanski Petrovac.

14 Also, I have in mind statements that I heard elsewhere and

15 articles published in the media, as they were appearing at the time, in

16 Bosnia and out of Bosnia. The information is almost identical when it

17 comes to the contemporaneous situation in Bosanski Petrovac.

18 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Hidic.

19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that completes my direct examination. I

20 would like to tender the binder and the 45 documents contained therein at

21 this time, as I mentioned earlier.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any objections or --

23 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no objections, the documents are

25 admitted into evidence. When a new translation is made where the "Country

Page 2585

1 Club" is replaced, please draw the attention to those preparing this new

2 translation that it's not only in the top of the document that the

3 "Country Club" appears, but also in the few last pages.

4 MR. HANNIS: Correct. We'll change every reference to that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, Mr. Stewart.

6 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. I was going to say, we have

7 prepared -- we have three copies of material for tomorrow morning's

8 meeting. Shall I hand them in to Ms. Philpott after Your Honours --

9 JUDGE ORIE: The last message I got just before entering into this

10 courtroom is that the parties would prefer to meet even today, and since

11 we are not sitting until 7.00, I indicated that I would be available until

12 7.00. That would be for approximately one hour. So I leave it up to the

13 parties whether they prefer to meet now or tomorrow morning at 7.45.

14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, when I spoke with Mr. Harmon and

15 Mr. Tieger about this possibility, they indicated at that time that they

16 would be available, if that was agreeable with the Court. I don't know if

17 they're watching right now, but I will try to contact them immediately.

18 Where should we meet?

19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we would also certainly prefer, thank

20 you, to meet this evening.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that would be in my chambers.

22 MR. STEWART: Would that be in about -- I've got to find Ms.

23 Loukas. She is not far away, Your Honour. I know that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I take it you'll find her within ten minutes.

25 MR. STEWART: Ten or 15 minutes, I think, Your Honour, yes. As

Page 2586

1 soon as we can make a phone call, we can find her.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although my time today, but the same would be

3 true tomorrow, is limited to approximately one hour on from 6.00.

4 MR. STEWART: No. We understand. No. We know. She is very

5 close by, Your Honour. So we can't guarantee ten minutes, but it would be

6 very soon.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then adjourn, but not after having instructed

8 you, Mr. Hidic, not to speak with anyone about the testimony you have

9 given and you're still about to give tomorrow, and we'd like to see you

10 back tomorrow morning, where we'll resume at 9.00 in Courtroom I, if I'm

11 not mistaken, Madam Registrar.

12 So we'd like to see you tomorrow. You'll then be examined by

13 counsel for the Defence, and perhaps by the Judges as well. Yes? Is that

14 clear?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning.

17 MR. STEWART: Shall I just hand these to Your Honour now? These

18 are for the meeting we're about to have. The sooner Your Honour has them,

19 the better --


21 MR. STEWART: -- I'd suggest. There are three copies there, Your

22 Honour, for Your Honour's colleagues as well, of course.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As you know, the involvement of the Chamber is

24 limited to --

25 MR. STEWART: I understand that, but it seemed appropriate that

Page 2587

1 Your Honour's fellow Judges should have the same material anyway.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll make sure that this happens.

3 We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, Courtroom I.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.52 p.m.

5 to be reconvened on Friday, the 23rd day of April

6 2004, at 9.00 a.m.