1 Tuesday, 31 August 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Mr. Tieger, there was an outstanding question yesterday about the

11 date of a certain transcript. Could you inform the Chamber.

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm afraid at this point I have nothing

13 to add. I certainly thought about it last night after we recessed, but

14 due to the hour I was unable to -- both sides of our adjournment, that is

15 last night and this morning, it was either too late or too early to get a

16 meaningful response. I have that at the top of the list, and I will

17 attempt to provide the court with an answer as soon as possible.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. I do understand that you're

19 dependent on other people to inform you. If you are paying attention to

20 those transcripts, perhaps you could also pay attention to the following:

21 In the transcript -- because I could read them without being dependent on

22 anyone yesterday evening. In the transcript of a conversation of the 11th

23 of December, 1991, between Mr. Bajagic and Mr. Karadzic -- well, first of

24 all, the transcript says that all pages are page 5 out of 5, which is at

25 least not of great assistance if we want to refer to certain pages. But

1 the last two pages, 5 out of 5, I found, at least at the last page, but

2 certainly the last page, all the speakers are mixed up. If you read them,

3 and if you read the text, "Well, good, Mr. Radovan," and if the speaker is

4 supposed to be Mr. Karadzic himself, or when you read "goodbye, my Zvonko,

5 regards," and the speaker is Zvonko Bajagic, then that urges us to compare

6 the English text with the original, and then it seems to me that all

7 speakers -- well, the two speakers have been, at least on the last page,

8 constantly mixed up.

9 So the Chamber would ask you two things. First of all, to provide

10 a copy which reflects the original in B/C/S. That's one. And the second

11 request is that the material before presented to the Chamber is checked on

12 this kind of points, because it's not the first time that these kinds of

13 things happened, and the Chamber would rather concentrate on the content

14 than on checking how to explain the parts of the documents that are really

15 incomprehensible, if not compared to the original and if not corrected

16 properly.

17 So then the Chamber will hear from you, and I take it that we get

18 a few other pages, whether 5 out of 5, or 4 out of 5, that's another

19 matter.

20 Having dealt with that, and inviting Ms. Loukas not to complicate

21 matters to a level not understandable any more for the witness -- I'm not

22 saying that it was, but there was at least a risk that the exercise might

23 lead to more confusion than to more clarification. I'd like to ask the

24 usher to escort the witness into the courtroom.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, I'd agree, Your Honour. Simplicity is always a

1 virtue.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Redzic. Can you hear me in a

5 language you understand?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From your answer, I do take it that you can

8 hear me. May I remind you that you're still bound by the solemn

9 declaration you've given yesterday at the beginning of your testimony,

10 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 Ms. Loukas will now continue.

12 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

13 WITNESS: IZET REDZIC [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas: [Continued]

17 Q. Mr. Redzic, good morning.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. Now, you'll recall that when we finished yesterday evening I was

20 asking you some questions about your awareness of the Cutileiro plan. Are

21 you having problems with your headphones?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems that the witness does not...

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear you before. I did

24 not hear the first part of your question.

25 MS. LOUKAS:

1 Q. Yes, certainly, Mr. Redzic. I'll just repeat that. You'll recall

2 that when we finished yesterday evening, I was asking you some questions

3 about the Cutileiro plan.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, just one final question on that topic. I take it, of course,

6 that you're aware that Izetbegovic had agreed to the principles of the

7 Cutileiro plan but had then changed his mind. You're aware of that;

8 correct?

9 A. I read it in the papers and I watched some of those things on TV.

10 I'm not aware of any details. I only knew what I saw on TV. I didn't

11 know the truth of the matter, because I did not see anything on paper. I

12 did not see any documents.

13 Q. And that's, of course, a similar position that you adopt in

14 relation to your awareness of the SDS activities, of course, at a senior

15 level?

16 A. I wouldn't go into that. I wouldn't speak about the SDS or the

17 SDA or any other government. I was not informed about any of those

18 things, and I would not wish to talk about things that I knew only

19 superficially.

20 Q. I appreciate that, Mr. Redzic. And what I want to take you to is

21 awareness of some matters of the local community in Vlasenica. Are you

22 with me? That's the next topic I want to go to.

23 A. Which local commune are you referring to? Are you referring to

24 the municipality of Vlasenica --

25 Q. Yes.

1 A. -- or a local commune?

2 Q. No, no. The local municipality of Vlasenica. So we're on the

3 same page; correct?

4 A. Yes. So we are talking about Vlasenica municipality.

5 Q. Yes. At the opstina level, correct. Okay. Now, in September

6 1991, were you aware of mixed Croat-Muslim paramilitary groups --

7 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a problem with the headphones.

8 Let's continue. I'll keep a close eye on it. Yes. Perhaps it's better

9 to use another earphone.

10 Mr. Redzic, is it any better now? Is it better now?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear a thing.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, not many people are speaking at this moment,

13 but can you hear me at this moment?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I hear something from the

15 interpreter, please?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it a matter of interpretation or is it a

17 matter of earphones? Ms. Cmeric, do you receive any interpretation at

18 this moment if you would choose the B/C/S channel?

19 MS. CMERIC: Excuse me, Your Honour, I was on channel 0.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. But could you please change

21 to the B/C/S. And do you receive interpretation?

22 MS. CMERIC: Yes, I do receive interpretation.

23 JUDGE ORIE: So interpretation is not the problem. Mr. Redzic, do

24 you now hear the interpretation of what I'm saying? Yes. You say

25 something, but --

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are interpretations.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just to indicate it's breaking up.

3 JUDGE ORIE: It's breaking up. Then it seems to be a technical

4 problem.

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll try one more earphone. If that doesn't solve

7 the matter, then there will be something wrong with the signal.

8 Mr. Redzic, you made some gestures which I understand gestures of

9 satisfaction of the interpretation you now receive; is that correct?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

12 MS. LOUKAS:

13 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, if you have any further problems with your

14 headphones, please let us know straight away so we can stop and attend to

15 whatever it is, so there's no breakdown in communication. Understood?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Now, prior to those technical difficulties, I was asking

18 you a question about your awareness or otherwise of certain activities in

19 the Vlasenica municipality. You understood where we were up to so far;

20 correct?

21 A. Yes. But I'm waiting for your direct questions. What you have

22 just said was very general.

23 Q. Yes. Exactly. It's not a question. I just want to ensure that

24 you know where we're up to at this point, okay?

25 Now, were you aware in September 1991 of mixed Croat-Muslim

1 paramilitary groups setting up stake-outs and frisking travellers on the

2 road between Milici and the Boksit mine?

3 A. This is beyond comprehension, not to know an answer to this

4 question. In my testimony, I said that Vlasenica municipality had 0.01

5 Croats, so it doesn't make sense to think that there were some joint

6 groups that put up blockades and searched travellers in the areas that you

7 mentioned. In that area, there were just two groups: Serbs and Muslims.

8 As for Croats, there were just 0.01 per cent Croats. They were mostly

9 teachers who had arrived from other areas and worked in Vlasenica.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Redzic, may I direct you in the following manner:

11 You said that it made no sense to even consider mixed groups. Whether it

12 makes sense or not is, first of all, a matter of reasoning, not a matter

13 of fact. I'm not suggesting that it was the case, but it could be that

14 Croats from elsewhere would have joined. I'm not saying that this is the

15 case, but -- so whether it makes sense or makes no sense is a different

16 matter. Ms. Loukas asked you whether you were aware of any such mixed

17 groups blockading -- blocking the roads. If you are, please tell us. If

18 you are not, please tell us that you are not. Whether it makes sense or

19 not is not something to be discussed at this moment.

20 Also, if you, for example, would know about such groups but not

21 including Croats, just tell us what you know about Muslim groups or

22 whether these were Hungarians or whatever. Tell us what you know and

23 don't discuss whether the question makes any sense or not.

24 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

2 MS. LOUKAS:

3 Q. Now, just in relation to that, Mr. Redzic, you do understand that

4 the Judges have to decide this case. You do understand that, don't you?

5 A. Absolutely.

6 Q. Okay. And, of course, neither you nor I are going to decide this

7 case.

8 A. The truth will help the Judges decide.

9 Q. Exactly. And, of course, you know that it's the way of justice

10 that it's fair to give both sides a chance to ask questions. You

11 appreciate that, don't you?

12 A. Of course, and that's why I'm here.

13 Q. Okay. Now, getting back to my question. Of course, my question

14 did not contain the inference that I was talking about Croats from the

15 local municipality of Vlasenica. What I'm doing is asking you a series of

16 questions about your awareness about various activities in the local

17 municipality, and most of the questions should be able to be answered yes

18 or no, whether you have an awareness or whether you don't. Are you with

19 me so far?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you can add anything on a factual basis, add it, but when you

22 can answer yes, answer yes, and where you can answer no, answer no. Do

23 you understand me? Because we have limited time in this court.

24 A. Absolutely.

25 Q. Now, were you aware in February 1992 of members of a Muslim and

1 Croat armed paramilitary formation kidnapping people, hijacking trucks,

2 and conducting searches on the road between Milici and the Boksit mine?

3 This is in February 1992 I'm talking about now.

4 A. No.

5 Q. Were you aware in February, March, and April of 1992 of some

6 members of the Muslim people in Vlasenica leaving on their own volition

7 for Tuzla?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were you aware on the 16th of May, 1992, of the disarming of

10 Muslim paramilitary formations in Zaklopaca?

11 A. If the Chamber will allow me to say something about this place.

12 Zaklopaca suffered a disaster at the beginning of the war. 83 civilians

13 were killed, amongst them five or six children. 80 per cent of them were

14 women. The rest were men. So this is not correct. This is a lie, and so

15 many lies were told about Zaklopaca village. On that same day, these

16 people were killed. And I apologise, Your Honours. I had to say that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Redzic, a question was put to you. It's not up

18 to you to say that there are lies. It was just a question put to you.

19 The question was whether you are aware that there was any disarming of

20 Muslim paramilitary formations on the 16th of May, 1992. If there was,

21 that does not exclude that other people were killed, either prior to that

22 or later to that, and whether this would be part of the truth or the whole

23 truth, or it would be not true at all, is a different question. You're

24 asked whether you are aware of any disarming on the 16th of May, 1992 of

25 Muslim paramilitary formations in that place. Are you aware?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then I come back to the previous question put to you.

3 You were asked whether you were aware of any Muslim people leaving

4 Vlasenica in certain month, including the month of April 1992. You said:

5 No, I'm not aware. Did I understand from your previous testimony that --

6 did I understand from your previous testimony that you yourself left

7 Vlasenica in the month of April 1992, that is to say, on the 18th or the

8 19th?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a question was put to

10 me whether I was aware that some people left Vlasenica in February and

11 went to Tuzla. This is what I understood.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the question was covering more months.

13 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct, Your Honour. It was February, March,

14 and April.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question -- and I ask you to carefully

16 listen to the questions. The question was whether you were aware of

17 Muslim people leaving Vlasenica in the month February, March, or April

18 1992. Since I now I understand that you misunderstood the question, could

19 you please answer to this question.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mass departure from Vlasenica

21 happened at the beginning of April 1992. At that time, most of the people

22 from Vlasenica went to Kladanj, Tuzla, and Zivinice.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And there was another part in the question, a

24 detail. Could you please ask the witness about that, Ms. Loukas. That

25 was about the why, and -- yes.

1 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Now, just going back to that previous question. The situation is

3 that in February, March, and April of 1992, members of the Muslim people

4 in Vlasenica left of their own volition for Tuzla?

5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. TIEGER: I didn't want to cover that disjunctive in the two

8 questions which I think was responsible for some of the confusion we've

9 heard but now it seems counsel is trying to take advantage of it. The

10 original question was did people leave in February March and April, which

11 seemed to suggest an exodus began in February.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear, Ms. Loukas, that the witness in his

13 answer has emphasised that it was in the beginning of April that the

14 majority -- and I don't know whether we need any details about how many

15 per cent at that moment and whether it was five or several per cent

16 earlier.

17 Please proceed.

18 MS. LOUKAS: I appreciate that, Your Honour. I think I'll just

19 leave February and March alone and concentrate on April.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MS. LOUKAS:

22 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, are you aware in April of members of the Muslim

23 community in Vlasenica leaving of their own volition?

24 A. No, not of their own volition. They did leave, but not of their

25 own volition.

1 Q. Well, Mr. Redzic, it's true, is it not, that in your evidence

2 yesterday in relation to the question of negotiations over the division of

3 the municipality you indicated that you'd actually spoken to

4 Mr. Izetbegovic; correct?

5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, could we have a page reference in the

6 transcript, please. I see counsel is referring to the transcript.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, to the extent possible, could you

8 guide us.

9 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I'm still looking for

10 it at this stage.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I'll try to find the page. You may continue, and

12 then -- because it's clearly in my mind that there was some consultation.

13 MS. LOUKAS:

14 Q. In any event, Mr. Redzic, I think you referred in the statement

15 you gave on the 12th of October, 1994, that you made contact with

16 President Izetbegovic and that he told you to give the Serbs the

17 impression that you were complying with the order so that you could give

18 as many Muslims as possible the chance to flee the city. That's correct,

19 isn't it?

20 A. No. That's not what it says in my statement. It wasn't stated

21 the way you put it. If I can clarify this.

22 Q. Well, before you go on to that, I'll just -- so you're saying that

23 you don't agree that what you said in your statement was: "I made contact

24 with President Izetbegovic, who told me to give the Serbs the impression

25 we were complying with the order so we could give as many Muslims as

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13 French transcripts correspond

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1 possible the chance to flee the city. I left Vlasenica on 18th of April,

2 1992."

3 You're telling the Court that that's not what's in your statement;

4 correct?

5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

7 MR. TIEGER: I think it would be fair and I think it's been the

8 practice in this Chamber to provide the witness with a copy.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Page 47, line 2 in my transcript, which is the

10 non-corrected transcript -- people out. That's -- no. Yes. That's

11 what -- at least one of the consultations. And I'm -- if you take the

12 transcript of yesterday and search for Izetbegovic, you'll find all the

13 references to -- let me -- I have one on page 47, line 2. I have --

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: I find not the specific page reference as far as the

16 people to flee, but I do to get the people out. It's more or less -- it's

17 not exactly, perhaps, but I have to admit that I couldn't find it

18 immediately. If you have it, Ms. Loukas, would you please provide it to

19 us. Otherwise I'll continue to search.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I was referring to the statement at that

21 point. Now I'll refer back to the transcript, Your Honours, kindly --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for misunderstanding you. So the

23 transcript would be -- I take it, then, you will go to page 47.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Precisely, Your Honour, yes.

25 Q. Now, just on this topic, the evidence you gave yesterday was that

1 you spoke with Mr. Izetbegovic, and Mr. Izetbegovic said: "Stall for as

2 long as possible to get the people out. Because the people weren't

3 organised, they didn't have weapons or anything else, they didn't have any

4 possibility of surviving that territory, given what had happened or was

5 happening to the Muslim and Bosniak population."

6 Now, you recall giving that answer yesterday, I take it?

7 A. Yes. That's what I said. I said that because it was a matter of

8 avoiding consequences in the future.

9 Q. I appreciate that. But you would agree with me, Mr. Redzic, that

10 arrangements were undertaken to ensure that Muslims could leave; correct?

11 A. Well, there's a question I put to you. Why was it necessary for

12 the Muslims to flee? Was it in front of tanks and rifle barrels that were

13 already being put to use and the Bosniak civilian population was being

14 killed? The reason for their departure was their security. It was the

15 fact that they were victims, that property was being destroyed. That's

16 the reason for which that population, those inhabitants, set off in the

17 direction of Tuzla, Kladanj, and other places.

18 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Redzic, I hope you'll appreciate both our

19 functions here, and that is that I'm here to ask the questions and --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, on the other hand, if I may interrupt.

21 If you just ignore the difference between the words "leave" and "flee,"

22 then we'll be in this courtroom for the next hour in great confusion.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

25 MS. LOUKAS:

1 Q. So nevertheless, the situation is that in your conversation with

2 Mr. Izetbegovic, you wanted to ensure that as many Muslims as possible

3 left Vlasenica; correct?

4 A. Our concern was to save as many Muslims as possible and to prevent

5 them from being killed.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, going back to the matters I was covering in the

7 local municipality: Were you aware of Muslim paramilitary formations in

8 Milici in April?

9 A. No, I wasn't.

10 Q. And were you aware of -- just in relation to this question of the

11 initiatives to divide the municipality, would it be true to say that

12 the -- those initiatives, in fact, commenced towards the end of 1991 and

13 early 1992? Would you agree with that proposition?

14 A. The formation of the institutions in Republika Srpska after a

15 short period of time, after this happened, the desire for division in

16 other municipalities occurred as well.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, of course, I'm asking you questions in relation

18 to the local municipality of Vlasenica. You've already conceded that your

19 knowledge at the higher level is extremely limited. Perhaps it would be

20 more useful to concentrate on the local municipality of Vlasenica at this

21 point. Are you with me?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Okay. Now, during that period - February, March, and part of

24 April 1992 - would you agree with me that a significant number of Serbs

25 actually left the area?

1 A. Yes, I would agree with you. Children -- all the children of

2 Serbian nationality were moved to Serbia.

3 Q. My question was not just directed to children. I'm talking about

4 Serb people generally, not just children.

5 A. The women and people were all in the area of the municipality of

6 Vlasenica.

7 Q. Okay. So you're not agreeing with my proposition that Serb

8 people, both male and female and children, that a significant number of

9 Serbs left the area? You don't agree with that proposition? You're only

10 defining it as children having left; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Would you agree that that time in Vlasenica and perhaps in Bosnia

13 generally, in early April, was a time of quite some chaos?

14 A. Absolutely. The events that occurred during that period of time

15 demonstrate that it was a time of chaos.

16 Q. Now, were you aware of a rally, a founding rally of the SDA, in

17 Bratunac - so we're dealing back here in 1990 - but a founding rally of

18 the SDA in Bratunac. There were thousands of Muslims at this rally and

19 some slogans were indicated at the rally, such as "Serbs go to Serbia and

20 slaughter Serbs." Are you aware of anything of that nature?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You're aware, of course, that the SDA banned the Muslims of

23 Vlasenica responding to the JNA mobilisation; correct?

24 A. Yes. Not the SDA. You misconstrued the question. In response to

25 decisions of the Presidency of the BH and of the government of the BH that

1 followed the order, that there shouldn't be a mobilisation in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It didn't have to do with an SDA order. This was

3 done at the level of state institutions.

4 Q. But, of course, you're aware that that was contrary to the laws of

5 Yugoslavia at the time; correct?

6 A. No. As far as I know, the problems hadn't been solved at the

7 level of the former Yugoslavia, and it had been agreed that there

8 shouldn't be any movement or mobilisation of troops in Bosnia-Herzegovina

9 until the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina reached an agreement at the

10 level of the Presidency of the former Yugoslavia.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, a matter of interpretation -- a matter,

12 perhaps, of transcript. Did you say that the problem had been solved at

13 the level of the former Yugoslavia or that it had not been solved?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The problem hadn't been solved. The

15 problem of going ahead with the mobilisation. The problem was to deal

16 with this until everything had been solved at the level of the republics

17 and the state.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Please proceed.

19 MS. LOUKAS:

20 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Redzic, that's your interpretation of the legality

21 at the time, and we'll leave it at that for the time being.

22 Now, were you aware of members of the Patriotic League in the

23 municipality of Vlasenica in early 1992?

24 A. No, I wasn't. And if that had been the case, if that was in

25 existence, I should have been aware of it.

1 Q. Now, were you aware of the JNA when it left taking with it its

2 equipment?

3 A. According to what people from Vlasenica said, the JNA left all its

4 weapons and artillery in the area of the municipality of Vlasenica.

5 Q. And that's, of course, what you heard from other people and not

6 something that you can give direct evidence from your own observations;

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Redzic, I just want to take you back to the

10 statement that you gave on the 12th of October, 1994, which is, of course,

11 the first statement that you gave to the Prosecution for this institution.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Perhaps Mr. Redzic might be provided by the

13 Prosecution with a copy of his Prosecution statement.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I noticed that although it's on your

15 potential exhibit list, you did not present it to the witness.

16 Ms. Loukas, may I ask you to consider whether it will be necessary

17 to tender it or whether it's just a specific part you want to --

18 MS. LOUKAS: Well, actually, there's no need to tender it, Your

19 Honour. There are some specific aspects that I want to go to.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you then take care that the relevant part

21 is properly read into the transcript so that there's no confusion later

22 on.

23 Please proceed.

24 MS. LOUKAS:

25 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, you have your statement before you; correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, that particular statement was taken on the 12th of October,

3 1994?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And I think you also gave a subsequent statement on the 1st of

6 August, 2002, in which you gave further general information in relation to

7 the municipality of Vlasenica; agreed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, when this statement was being taken, Mr. Redzic, of course, a

10 careful note was being taken of what you were saying by the interviewers?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. And you understood, of course, that they needed your statement to

13 investigate the matters that occurred in Vlasenica?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And it was important for the purposes of ensuring that they could

16 find the people responsible for what occurred in Vlasenica?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And, of course, you understood at the time the importance of

19 telling the truth?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And, of course, of telling the whole truth?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you understood the importance of telling the Prosecution

24 everything you knew about what had occurred in Vlasenica?

25 A. While I was there, concerning the period during which I was there,

1 from the '90s until the time that the conflict broke out.

2 Q. Yes. And, of course, the Prosecution interviewers, of course,

3 gave you your opportunity to tell your story of what occurred; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And it wasn't just a question of there being questions and

6 answers, but you would volunteer material that you felt might assist the

7 Prosecution; correct?

8 A. Well, yes. I didn't provide them with versions of any kind. I

9 told them the truth.

10 Q. But, of course, when they asked you questions on a particular

11 topic, you would tell them, of course, everything you knew?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And it was, of course, a detailed statement; you'd agree with me?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do you recall how many hours the statement took, Mr. Redzic?

16 A. In 1992; is that the period you're referring to, when I gave the

17 first one?

18 MS. LOUKAS: No.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, the Chamber is not aware of the existence

20 of any statement of the 1st of August, 2002. We have not been provided

21 with that.

22 Mr. Tieger, is there any --

23 MR. TIEGER: It's not, in fact, a statement, Your Honour. It's an

24 information report that reflects a discussion with Mr. Redzic, which

25 covered, as counsel indicated, general information about the Vlasenica

1 municipality. It was not the subject of -- I'd be happy to provide it to

2 the Court.

3 JUDGE ORIE: What I have is a supplemental information sheet dated

4 the 18th of October. What I have is a supplemental information sheet

5 dated the 30th of August, 2004. But -- so we do have some general

6 information sheets, but not an information sheet dated the 1st of August,

7 2002.

8 MR. TIEGER: Sorry. I frankly didn't pay attention to the

9 specific date. I understood that counsel was referring to the information

10 reports. If there's some discrepancy, I'd be surprised, but -- it's our

11 intention to give the Court --

12 JUDGE ORIE: It suggests that there's a third general information

13 sheet, information provided by this witness.

14 Ms. Loukas, could you --

15 MS. LOUKAS: I think there may be some confusion there, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MS. LOUKAS: I'll just locate my copy of that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Because you asked the witness: "And I think you also

20 gave a subsequent statement on the 1st of August, 2002, in which you gave

21 further general information in relation to the municipality." So I'm just

22 wondering whether we missed something.

23 MS. LOUKAS: That's just -- sorry, Your Honour.

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour --

25 MS. LOUKAS: If that was dated 18th of October --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Then the confusion has been -- is over now. Yes.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. I was just referring -- all I've

3 referred to so far is the 12th of October, 1994 statement, and that's what

4 I'm asking the witness about. And there was that general information

5 sheet of the --

6 JUDGE ORIE: 18th of October, you told us.

7 MS. LOUKAS: If I might just have a moment to check the dates of

8 those two documents to save any confusion. Just a second.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you started saying the 1st of August, 2002, and

10 now the last time you referred to it, you said the 18th of October. We

11 have an 18th of October.

12 MR. TIEGER: Both dates are in fact correct, Your Honour. The

13 discussion or the conversation took place on the 1st of August.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 MR. TIEGER: The report was dated the 18th of October. It's the

16 same document.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And does that appear somewhere in the report that the

18 interview was --

19 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. You'll see at the top of the

20 document the date 18 October, and then in the box beneath the heading

21 supplemental information sheet, it indicates proofing date, Thursday,

22 1 August 2002. The ERN date of that document, to resolve any confusion,

23 is 01135260.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I see. Yes. So just to enable us to not

25 create any -- I now do understand that the 18th of October and the 1st of

1 August are -- is the same document.

2 Yes, please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Yes. I think it was

4 just that question of the fact that there was two dates on that particular

5 document.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MS. LOUKAS:

8 Q. Now, going back to the statement on the 12th of October, 1994,

9 Mr. Redzic, that I was asking you questions about, the Prosecution, of

10 course, asked you to tell them everything you knew, and you told them

11 everything you knew at that stage; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Now, in relation to your statement of the 12th of October,

14 1994, how many hours were you in conference with the Prosecution?

15 A. I can't remember. It was a long time ago.

16 Q. But certainly it would have been most of the day, from the morning

17 to the afternoon; you'd agree?

18 A. The conversation probably took a while, but I don't remember how

19 long.

20 Q. And, of course, you had a chance to read the document, your entire

21 statement, before you signed it?

22 A. Believe it or not, I signed it without having read it first. I

23 trusted that what it said in the statement was correct, so there was no

24 need for me to read it.

25 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Redzic, just to clarify: Of course, you did tell

1 the Prosecutors everything you knew at that stage; correct?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, it's not for me to assess how counsel

4 wants to use her limited time, but that question has been asked and

5 answered, I think, twice before.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, in general terms, you usually take

7 some ten minutes to find out. If you just ask the witness whether he has

8 given to the best of his knowledge as complete as possible the answers to

9 the questions to him, that would certainly satisfy the matters. Apart

10 from that, asking whether he read the statement when the statement clearly

11 says, two times, that it was read to him, that the translation was read to

12 him orally in Bosnian, is really a waste of time. And apart from that, I

13 know that perhaps it's part of the art of advocacy, but also questions

14 like, did it take a considerable time? I mean, everyone who is

15 experienced in this field of law knows that putting on paper such a

16 statement takes a considerable time, and whether that was then four, five,

17 or six hours, just to emphasise that, because that's -- I expect that

18 you're going to make a point that it was either incomplete or incorrect

19 somewhere. Just come to your point, without this introduction. And if

20 you want to introduce that, do that in one, two, or three questions but

21 not for ten minutes.

22 Please proceed.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I appreciate that,

24 obviously, the jury style is very different to what is expected in front

25 of professional Judges.

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1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are not jurors, but I do appreciate and I do

2 understand that it needs some adaptation. But we are only the three of

3 us. Usually juries are more people.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

6 MS. LOUKAS:

7 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, I just want to take you to some evidence you gave

8 yesterday in court. And the page reference is page 36, for the benefit of

9 the Court.

10 You referred in your evidence yesterday to yourself and Mr. Stanic

11 participating in meetings with observers every week and that on one

12 occasion a gentleman from the monitoring mission addressed you personally

13 and you had a conversation. Do you recall giving that evidence yesterday?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That this gentleman had had a conversation with you and also with

16 Mr. Stanic; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, you've got your statement before you there, your statement of

19 the 12th of October, 1994. You'd agree with me, would you not,

20 Mr. Redzic, that that does not appear in your statement? I take it, to

21 save time, the Prosecution will concede.

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, as the Court is aware, we filed a

23 supplemental proofing information sheet which contained that. So I think

24 we're all in agreement that that was not in the statement.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. With this addition, the Prosecution concedes to

1 that, Ms. Loukas.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that, Your Honour, I don't think

3 the supplemental proofing sheet included that there was a conversation

4 with a gentleman from the monitoring mission. Mr. Tieger will correct me

5 if I'm wrong.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you referred to that the supplemental

7 information sheet contains seven points. Could you indicate in which one

8 it appears.

9 MR. TIEGER: Number 5, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Again, I don't think that includes the conversation

12 with someone from a monitoring mission.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed on the matter and see whether -- I do

14 agree with you that I have some difficulty in understanding, but perhaps

15 you can get the information from the witness.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Okay. Now, so you did not indicate anything in your statement

18 about a conversation with a gentleman from the monitoring mission;

19 correct?

20 A. Correct. I could not remember all the details at the time. One

21 cannot, simply cannot remember.

22 Q. Right. So ten years after you gave your statement and 12 years

23 after the events in question, your memory has improved; correct?

24 A. No. No. When I gave my statement, I did not mention all the

25 details.

1 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, let's go to some other evidence you gave

2 yesterday, page 51, for the benefit of the Court and the Prosecution.

3 Now, looking at that, you gave evidence that: "Mr. Stanic told me that

4 there were no more possibilities and he said that these orders had come

5 from higher up." And this was in relation to the topic of dividing the

6 municipality. Do you recall giving that evidence yesterday, Mr. Redzic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Now, if you have a look at your statement that you have

9 before you. It's on page 6 in the English version. It's the paragraph

10 commencing: "The team presented this ultimatum to a Muslim delegation."

11 A. Which paragraph is that?

12 JUDGE ORIE: It's just on the top of page 6 in the B/C/S version.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the document that Mr. Redzic has in

14 front of him is also correspondingly numbered, so we can also refer to the

15 numbered paragraphs.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The problem is that we've got no numbers. So,

17 therefore, it's on the top of page 6, where it says that the team

18 presented this ultimatum. That's right on the top of page 6.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 MS. LOUKAS:

22 Q. So yesterday you said in relation --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry about that.

25 Q. Yesterday you said that in relation to the division that

1 Mr. Stanic told you that there were no more possibilities and he said

2 these orders had come from higher up. If you look at your paragraph of

3 the statement dealing with that particular issue, you indicate in the

4 middle of the paragraph that: "The team members told us that they were

5 given the assignment to present this ultimatum, but they did not say who

6 had given them this task"; correct?

7 A. That is what it says. But it must be a misunderstanding. It must

8 be a typo or maybe a translation mistake. In any case, on very many

9 occasions, Mr. Stanic repeated that the order came from the top, and the

10 top is not the top of the SDA. It was well known which top he was

11 referring to.

12 Q. Okay. So you're at this stage saying that you think it was a

13 typo; is that correct, Mr. Redzic?

14 A. Probably. Probably I signed not having read. I trusted it was

15 correct. This is a mistake. There may be more than this one. But I'm

16 sure you are also clear on who was it who issued orders to the lower

17 levels in this case.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic -- okay. So in your statement you've got they

19 were given the assignment, did not say who gave them the task. In

20 evidence, you say the orders came from higher up. And so it's true to say

21 you're going higher up the ladder ten years later, correct, or attempting

22 to?

23 A. I do not understand your question fully.

24 Q. Okay. I'll withdraw it. Was the statement read out to you,

25 Mr. Redzic?

1 A. Are you referring to October 1994?

2 Q. Indeed I am. I'm referring to the statement that's in front of

3 you.

4 A. Are you referring to the time when I gave my statement and signed

5 it in October 1994?

6 Q. Yes, that's what I'm referring to.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, I'd like --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was probably --

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- to take your earphones off for a second. Thank

10 you very much.

11 Ms. Loukas, I read the statement. I read the testimony of

12 yesterday. In your examination of the witness, you suggest, and it seems

13 that the witness might be confused about it, that there is some

14 contradiction between the two, which, in the view of the Chamber, and I

15 just check with my colleagues, is not. I mean, an assignment is usually

16 not given by your subordinates but by a higher-up level. To give a task

17 is not something that usually you get from an equal but from someone who

18 is above you. And the only thing he said in his testimony is that higher

19 level, not knowing who, and to that extent the statement is fully in line

20 with what the witness said yesterday. So you are creating a lot of

21 confusion with the witness who might not look through that, which there

22 should not be. If you would keep that in mind. Thank you, continue.

23 Please proceed.

24 MS. LOUKAS: If Your Honour takes the view that the last aspect I

25 was covering, I'm happy to move on to the next one.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Redzic, would you --

2 MS. LOUKAS: There are others.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. I'm not -- of course, I'm not stopping

4 you in putting questions to the witness, but I just wanted to make you

5 aware of the -- what the Chamber noticed.

6 Please proceed.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Now, going to your testimony yesterday, Mr. Redzic, at page 55,

9 for the benefit of the Court, you indicated, at about line 20, and you

10 were dealing with this question of people coming from Vlasenica and

11 telling you that the soldiers and officers were very tolerant and treated

12 the Muslim population in Vlasenica very fairly, that soldiers came and

13 they were offered coffee and cakes. And the soldiers told them that the

14 SDS, the Serbian Democratic Party, had requested the corps to go there,

15 because between 300 and 350 Serbs had had their throats cut. You recall

16 giving that evidence yesterday?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, I want you to have a look at your statement, the statement

19 that's before you. And you'll recall we were at the top of page 6.

20 A. Which paragraph am I looking at?

21 Q. We're at the top of the page on that last aspect. So not the next

22 one, but the one after that, where you've got: "According to what people

23 have told me, the city was entered." Do you see that paragraph?

24 JUDGE ORIE: I think in the B/C/S version it's the paragraph that

25 starts with the word --

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 MR. TIEGER: It's number 28 on the witness's version, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have no numbers, as I told you.

4 MS. LOUKAS:

5 Q. So you've got paragraph 28 before you, Mr. Redzic?

6 A. 20? 26. No. Actually, 28. 28.

7 Q. You see that in that particular paragraph you're dealing with that

8 information. Do you agree with me, about the coffee and the cakes and the

9 soldiers and what have you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And nowhere in that paragraph do you indicate that the SDS had

12 requested the corps, do you, Mr. Redzic?

13 A. There was no need for me to indicate that. We knew that there

14 were only two parties. The SDA did not request that, so it had to be the

15 SDS. And it would have been unnecessary to emphasise that, because the

16 SDS was the only party that could have done that.

17 Q. Okay. That's your belief.

18 A. And the SDS proved that with all the victims and all the

19 misdoings.

20 Q. Okay. So that's your belief, Mr. Redzic; correct?

21 A. The Serbian Democratic Party made us believe that with all the

22 victims, all the destructions, that it was them who did that, and it just

23 confirmed my belief.

24 Q. Okay. So that's your belief, and it colours your evidence,

25 doesn't it, Mr. Redzic?

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I object. I think that's first

2 argumentative, and the witness, secondly, cannot be expected to --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, you've made your point.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Now, going on to page 56 of your testimony yesterday, you indicate

6 that, as part of this conversation that you were told about from people

7 leaving Vlasenica that the soldiers said to the people: When we leave

8 Vlasenica, it will be very difficult for you. They told them that they

9 would leave all the weapons and artillery in Vlasenica and that is when

10 they could expect a catastrophe. They themselves didn't know what sort of

11 scale of conflict to expect.

12 Do you remember giving that evidence yesterday?

13 A. Yes. You can find that in paragraph 28 as well.

14 Q. What, that the soldiers said to expect a catastrophe?

15 A. The Novi Sad Corps, soldiers from the Novi Sad Corps.

16 Q. Okay. Show me where in paragraph 28 it says: "When we leave

17 Vlasenica it will be very difficult for you, and you can expect a

18 catastrophe." Show me where it says that in paragraph 28.

19 A. I'll read a sentence to you: "The soldiers told us that they were

20 surprised when Muslims greeted them and offered them coffee and cakes.

21 When the soldiers left, they left all the equipment to the Serbs in

22 Vlasenica, including tanks and all the other weaponry."

23 Q. Okay. But nothing about: When we leave Vlasenica, it will be

24 very difficult for you, and nothing about a catastrophe; correct?

25 A. Yes. But it doesn't imply that I'm not allowed to add

1 subsequently what I left out from my statement.

2 Q. Okay. And ten years after you gave the statement, you have a

3 better memory; correct?

4 MR. TIEGER: If that's a follow-on or a paraphrase of what the

5 witness said, it's inaccurate.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas --

7 MS. LOUKAS: I withdraw it, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: The witness said that he added something he didn't

9 tell at that time. He didn't say anything about it. But here again it's

10 clear to this Chamber that the hearsay information he provided yesterday

11 from what he heard from other people that were left in Vlasenica did not

12 contain in his statement certain elements that were part of his testimony

13 of yesterday. You made that clear to the Chamber.

14 MS. LOUKAS: There's just one further matter I want to go to in

15 relation to comparisons between the statement and the transcript, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

18 MS. LOUKAS:

19 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, yesterday you told the Court Mr. Stanic always

20 said that things were no longer in his hands, that they simply had to obey

21 orders from higher levels, and everybody knows what higher levels were, so

22 all the orders were handed down from higher levels to the municipal level,

23 and at the municipal level these orders were carried out. That's at

24 page 63, lines 14 to 18, for the benefit of the Court and the Prosecution.

25 You remember giving that evidence yesterday, Mr. Redzic?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Show me where in your statement you indicate that

3 Mr. Stanic was always saying to you that things were no longer in his

4 hands and that they simply had to obey orders from higher levels. Tell me

5 where in your statement it says that, your statement from ten years ago.

6 A. Probably it is not in the statement. However, ten years ago, when

7 I gave my statement, I never realised that the international community

8 would be so serious about this whole situation and that one day I would

9 appear as a witness in this courtroom to testify about the events in

10 Vlasenica. At that time, I did not think that all of these details were

11 necessary. I did not believe, I couldn't hope that this problem would one

12 day be dealt with so seriously and that I would be sitting here today.

13 Q. The United Nations had set up the International Criminal Tribunal

14 for the former Yugoslavia when you gave your statement.

15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I mean, these are argumentative points.

16 Counsel can make these in closing if she wishes, but it doesn't really

17 serve any purpose here to remind the witness that he was interviewed by

18 representatives --

19 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the witness to take his headphones off for

20 a second.

21 Ms. Loukas, in all investigations, you'll find that the focus will

22 be on what is most relevant at that time. The mere fact that even if the

23 witness would have been aware at that time that the ICTY was created, it

24 doesn't say that specific focus on vertical lines, as we call them, and

25 it's clear that in this case vertical lines are of major importance, that

1 a similar focus should have been at that time already on that issue, and

2 especially not that a witness should have been aware of the outstanding

3 relevance of especially those issues. You made your point that the

4 statement does not contain any information on that, but it's of no use to

5 enter into a kind of argument with the witness whether he should have been

6 aware at that time because the ICTY was created already, that he should

7 have included in his answers such elements which might not even be clear

8 to those investigators interviewing him at that time. So I do not mind at

9 all, the Chamber does not mind that you demonstrate that there are

10 elements in his testimony of yesterday which do not appear, but the

11 argument you enter into with the witness is of no assistance to the

12 Chamber.

13 Please proceed.

14 MS. LOUKAS: I understand that, Your Honour. But I would make one

15 point in relation to what Your Honour has just indicated. This is a

16 witness statement that does contain questions of the chain of command, and

17 that appears in the very first page of the statement.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm not saying that it's totally absent and

19 that no one was aware of the relevance of it, but I think I indicated that

20 the focus on it, which does not mean that the awareness was totally

21 absent, that vertical lines could be of some importance. And of course, I

22 do understand that especially the chain of command was of importance, but

23 that was -- you're referring to the bottom of page 2 and the top of

24 page 3.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed I am, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do not mind if you would deal with the

2 matter, but not by putting to the witness that the awareness of the

3 existence of the ICTY should have, well, made him more cautious in certain

4 specific respects. So I'm not preventing you from putting questions, but

5 it's just the way in which you do it.

6 Please proceed.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I note the time.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MS. LOUKAS: It's probably an appropriate juncture for a break,

10 Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Some time for reflection during the break, for

12 the Chamber as well, of course.

13 Ms. Loukas, could you give us an indication on how much time you'd

14 still need?

15 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I'm actually just about to finish.

16 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would it take you to finish? Because

17 if you say, well, I could finish in some seven minutes, then we could

18 continue and have a break then.

19 MS. LOUKAS: I wouldn't finish in seven minutes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You would not finish. No. Then we'll have a break

21 now. We will -- perhaps the witness could put his headphones on again.

22 Yes.

23 Mr. Redzic, we'll have a break for almost half an hour. We'll

24 resume at 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, you'll be happy to know we're moving away from

5 your statement onto another topic. Just in relation to what you've

6 referred to in your evidence of fears that people in your local community

7 had in relation to Muslims. I just wanted to ask you some questions about

8 Izetbegovic. Are you with me?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you're aware, of course, that on a visit to Turkey in July

11 1991 that Izetbegovic, Mr. Izetbegovic, asked to join the organisation of

12 Islamic countries?

13 A. Well, I'm not familiar with the details.

14 Q. But you are familiar, of course, that Mr. Izetbegovic asked to

15 join the organisation of Islamic countries in 1991?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You're not aware of that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Mr. Izetbegovic stated two years

20 before the outbreak of war that the Muslims did not yet comprise a big

21 enough majority to make Bosnia a Muslim state? Are you aware of that

22 statement?

23 A. No, I'm not.

24 Q. You're not aware of that either. Okay. Were the people in your

25 local community aware of that, to your knowledge?

1 A. No.

2 Q. And were you aware that in parliament, Mr. Izetbegovic, on

3 February the 27th, 1991, told parliament that, and I quote: "I would

4 sacrifice peace for a sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina, but for that peace in

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I would not sacrifice sovereignty." Are you aware of

6 that?

7 A. Well, superficially. But I know about someone else who said that

8 a people would disappear from that area, and that occurred at the same

9 session.

10 Q. I understand you've already given evidence of that, but I'm asking

11 you about this statement, Mr. Redzic. Are you aware of whether or not

12 people in your local community were aware of that statement by

13 Mr. Izetbegovic?

14 A. Well, one could see what one could see on television, if that is

15 what he said. It's not at all a problem, if there are public appearances,

16 to know what was said at that session.

17 Q. And were you aware of a rally in Velika Kladusa -- an SDA rally in

18 September 1990? Were you aware there was an SDA rally in Velika Kladusa

19 in September 1990?

20 A. A pre-electoral rally before the multi-party elections.

21 Q. Exactly, yes. And were you aware that there were hundreds of

22 green flags, people in Arabic dress, and portraits of Saddam Hussein at

23 that rally?

24 A. No, I'm not, and that is incorrect. There were religious flags

25 there, and I believe that that's not a problem of any kind.

1 Q. So you weren't aware of people chanting "long live Saddam Hussein"

2 and "we are going to kill Vuk Draskovic"?

3 A. I'm not personally aware of that. I wasn't present at that

4 assembly, and I couldn't go into the details of that matter.

5 Q. If I were to tell you that that came from the Netherlands

6 Institute for War Documentation, would you disagree with it?

7 MR. TIEGER: I object, Your Honour. The witness has clearly

8 indicated the fact that he wasn't present at the rally, doesn't know what

9 was said there. I'm not at all sure what the point is of getting him to

10 discuss the contents of --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, he did say that he was not personally

12 aware because he wasn't present, and he couldn't go into the details of

13 that matter. There seems to be an admission of some knowledge of what

14 happened over there.

15 Ms. Loukas, are we listening to background testimony or are we

16 listening to anything else?

17 MS. LOUKAS: I have just one final question in relation to --

18 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just asking you. I mean, from the evidence we

19 heard until [Realtime transcript read in error "not guilty"] now, it is

20 clear that strong words might have been uttered by many people in that

21 area and that might have some relevance to understand the background of

22 the conflict. But, of course, this case is not about an exchange of

23 words.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, I'm wondering, are we listening

1 to background information to better understand that fear might have been

2 on all sides? But again, this case is not only about fear, but also about

3 other things that may have happened.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So I'm wondering, is this background information or

6 does it play a different role in the Defence position?

7 MS. LOUKAS: Well, of course, Your Honour, number one, it's in

8 terms of setting context, which is important.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear.

10 MS. LOUKAS: And in fact my last question to the witness will just

11 about, to his knowledge, whether people in his community were aware of

12 this event.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Then if that's your last question, then

14 it's not of any importance to go into further details. Please put that

15 last question, but put it in a factual way. Because earlier when you

16 asked the witness whether he was aware of something, then your next

17 question was whether his people in his village were aware of that. Of

18 course, if you are aware of the awareness of other people, that results in

19 your own awareness as well. So therefore, the question was -- didn't make

20 much sense. But here, perhaps you could ask the witness whether he has

21 any reason to assume that other people were aware and what that reason

22 would have been.

23 Yes.

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me. Before I proceed, one

25 clarification to the transcript. On page 39, line 8, it reads: "Heard

1 not guilty now." I believe the Court said: "Heard until now."

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Sometimes it seems that I'm not speaking

3 clearly enough to have my words properly reflected in the transcript. But

4 I blame myself for that.

5 Please put your last question for the witness.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Certainly, Your Honour. But I'm happy to leave

7 it as not guilty, I must say, without correcting the transcript.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, you know that the truth is guiding

9 us.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. Indeed I do.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, my final question to you is -- I'm just looking

12 for Your Honour's formulation, Your Honour. Now, just in relation to this

13 rally, were you aware of people in the municipality of Vlasenica being

14 aware of this rally in Velika Kladusa?

15 A. Well, probably on the basis of what they could see on television

16 and on the basis of what they could read in the newspapers.

17 Q. Yes. Thank you. No further questions, Mr. Redzic.

18 A. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Tieger, is there any need to

20 re-examine the witness?

21 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions to you.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to ask you two or three

1 minor questions. My first question is about what you called paramilitary

2 formations in the Milici area. You said, and I quote to you in English:

3 [In English] "Paramilitary units had already been formed at around

4 mid-1991."

5 [Interpretation] And further on, you said: [In

6 English]: "Chetnik insignia."

7 [Interpretation] Do you know who formed these units?

8 A. Well, the leaders of the SDS parties. They did this at a higher

9 level. And they were the founders and they formed the paramilitary units.

10 They also acted outside the former JNA. So it was the SDS party that

11 formed them. Because if a state institution had formed them, it would

12 have been necessary to do this through the Presidency of Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina and through governmental organisations. Since this was never

14 done at the level of the state, it was the SDS that did everything, took

15 all steps.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] If I have understood you

17 correctly, Mr. Stanic was elected by the SDS party as president of the

18 Municipal Assembly.

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Nevertheless, when you informed

21 him about the delivery of arms to the population in the municipality, you

22 said, and I quote you: [In English]: "Was surprised." [Interpretation]

23 And further on you said [In English]: "...visit areas. He asked the

24 people, and the answer was that they were afraid to be attacked by the

25 Muslims."

1 [Interpretation] End of quote. Please allow me to finish. Am I

2 take to it that Mr. Stanic was surprised because he wasn't aware of the

3 fact you said that it was the SDS that was in fact in charge of these

4 units and of the delivery of arms, but Mr. Stanic seemed surprised. And

5 when he was informed of the delivery of arms to the population, he seemed

6 quite surprised. How do you reconcile these two factors? Because, on the

7 one hand, he was a member of the SDS party, and, on the other hand, he was

8 surprised by the fact that there were weapons delivered and there were

9 units that existed. These units existed in the surroundings of the

10 municipality.

11 A. Well, I don't know what I said earlier on, but I do know that

12 Mr. Stanic was not surprised at any point in time, because he himself

13 participated in arming the people. It was his task as the president of

14 the Municipal Assembly and as a member of the Executive Committee of the

15 SDS. Because he was fully informed of everything and he knew exactly

16 which villages had to be provided with certain weapons. He knew how many

17 weapons they needed. He knew exactly what they needed. He wasn't

18 surprised when I visited the villages, et cetera. But I, together with

19 him --

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Allow me to interrupt you,

21 Witness. You said, and I quote you: [In English] "He was surprised and

22 asked me where I obtained this information from. [Interpretation] End of

23 quote.

24 A. Yes. I understand that now. The problem was that when Serbs from

25 faraway Serbian villages came to see Stanic, Mr. Stanic wasn't in his

1 office, and the secretary directed them to me.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation]. No. That's another issue.

3 I'm talking about a particular incident. When you said that he was

4 surprised to hear that the population was armed and that the population

5 was being provided with arms. But this is something else, and you

6 correctly said that you were taken to meet Mr. Stanic and you were told

7 why weapons weren't being delivered. But these are two different issues,

8 aren't they?

9 A. Well, I don't know. I don't believe that Stanic was surprised at

10 any point in time. He could have pretended to be surprised, but if he

11 hadn't been aware of everything, that would have been incomprehensible.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But Mr. Stanic was a member of

13 the SDS party, wasn't he?

14 A. Mr. Stanic was appointed by the SDS as president of the Municipal

15 Assembly of Vlasenica. He was a member of the Executive Committee, of the

16 Municipal Committee, of the Assembly Committee. I think he was a member

17 of the Assembly at the level of the Assembly within the SDS in

18 Republika Srpska.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. To go back to the question

20 that I put to you, first of all, concerning the fact that he was

21 surprised, that Mr. Stanic was surprised. Would you like to elaborate on

22 this fact? Was he surprised by your knowledge, was he surprised by the

23 events that were taking place, or was he surprised by the fact that you

24 were in the know, so to speak, that you knew about this?

25 A. Well, probably because I had information from the field and I was

1 familiar with the situation. I knew as much as he did. And it was not

2 clear to him where such information had been obtained from.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll now move on to

4 another subject. It has to do with a meeting you had with Mr. Stanic in

5 private. If I have understood this correctly, you went to see him, you

6 were alone with him, and you said that Mr. Stanic told you that it was

7 very dangerous for him to meet you because you had already been accused by

8 a military court. Have I understood your testimony correctly?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You were accused or you were

11 convicted?

12 A. An indictment was brought in October 1991. The trial was

13 scheduled on a number of occasions, and on the 13th of December, 1992 --

14 1991, I was put on trial in my absence. I was represented by counsel

15 Balijagic. He told me I had been sentenced to ten years hard labour. I

16 never received that document because the war then broke out, et cetera.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You were in fact accused, you

18 intervened to prevent a certain brigade from setting off to Kunace

19 [phoen], in Croatia?

20 A. Yes, exactly. The Vlasenica brigade, the light brigade, which

21 consisted of 1.200 troops, 80 per cent of them were Muslims, Bosniaks,

22 this brigade was mobilised, although it didn't have the right to be

23 mobilised because the Presidency of Yugoslavia and the Presidency of

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina hadn't reached an agreement. They mobilised the

25 troops, took them to Han Pijesak, and then transported them to Zaluzani

1 near Banja Luka, and they were supposed to be transported to Slavonija, to

2 Vukovar and to Okucani and to Osijek from there. I left with six or seven

3 lorries with women and children, and I returned 90 per cent of those

4 troops from Zaluzani to Vlasenica. And naturally, from Banja Luka, I had

5 to engage, I had to get hold of about ten new buses.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you represent the civilian

7 authority, you represented the civilian authority, and this brigade was

8 under military orders. It was directed and had to obey military orders?

9 A. But at that time, the army didn't have the competence to mobilise

10 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Not up until the time that an agreement was

11 reached at the level of the former Yugoslavia and at the level of Bosnia

12 and Herzegovina. So I informed [as interpreted] the Presidency of Bosnia

13 and Herzegovina, the government and the ministry for national defence that

14 the JNA shouldn't mobilise anyone until these two levels, the state and

15 republican level, reached an agreement. It was my task, because of the

16 women and children, to go and try and find a solution, to return the

17 soldiers to the field, to the factories, et cetera. Because the Bosniak

18 people, the Muslims, didn't want a war. They didn't want to have to kill

19 Serbs and Croats, anyone else, within Yugoslavia or outside the boundaries

20 of Yugoslavia.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you intervened with the Muslim

22 members of the brigade and you persuaded them not to take part in this and

23 to return to their homes or to desert, so to speak.

24 A. Well, I wasn't on my own. There were six or seven buses. There

25 were women, children, fathers. We had a negotiation team and we asked to

1 speak to representatives. Commander Milosevic was there. He was the

2 commander of the entire garrison in Zaluzani. We discussed the fact that

3 it wasn't possible for the troops to return, et cetera, and my duty [as

4 interpreted] was to prevent this from happening in the territory of

5 Vlasenica municipality. But after the population was warned, the troops

6 did respond. Many of those inhabitants had trust. They believed that it

7 was the former JNA. But when they came to Zaluzani and when they saw who

8 the troops were, there were 7.000 or 8.000 soldiers there, 80 per cent of

9 them were bearded, intoxicated, they had cockades, they were singing

10 nationalist songs, it's an area of about ten kilometres, where there were

11 tanks, Howitzers, other forms of artillery that have been deployed, and

12 when someone sees such things, it is clear that it wasn't possible to find

13 a solution in Bosnia and Herzegovina. All that was possible was for force

14 to be used by a certain party. This is something that was a well-known

15 fact.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And my very last question

17 concerns your intervention in order to transport the Muslim population and

18 help them to leave Vlasenica. I must admit that I didn't understand what

19 you said very well. Did this just concern the people detained in Susica

20 or did it concern people living in the villages, in the town, who

21 contacted you to intervene to obtain transport for them out of the

22 municipality?

23 A. Vlasenica, as a town, had already been evacuated. All those who

24 wanted to leave had already left. However, people in the villages

25 believed that they were not guilty of anything, that they were not engaged

1 in any politics, that they were not interested in who was in power, and

2 their sole concern was their own survival. They still remained in their

3 villages. However, the time arrived when the Serb unit entered all these

4 villages. They captured all the men. They evacuated the women and

5 children to Susica. At that moment, Susica was a control point for the

6 women, children, and the elderly. From there, they went to Kladanj. As

7 for the males, they remained in the Susica camp. At that moment, the

8 entire Vlasenica municipality was covered by the Serb units. All the

9 villages were encircled. The women, children, and men were captured.

10 Those who tried to run away were killed immediately. Those who were not

11 killed were brought to Susica, and according to some of their criteria,

12 women, children, and elderly males were transported to Kladanj, and the

13 males were kept in the camp. Most of them never arrived in the free

14 territory of the Federation, and up to this day, nobody knows the

15 whereabouts of these people who remained detained in the Susica camp.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] My question was: Did you receive

17 the calls of the detained people? Did they ask for your intervention?

18 Could they contact you from the detention camp? Could they ask for your

19 intervention once they were detained?

20 A. No, of course not. They did not have anything to eat or to sleep,

21 let alone having the right to talk to anybody. The detainees had no

22 rights whatsoever. They didn't have the right to food, they didn't have

23 the right to sleep. And people who spent some time there know best how it

24 was.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But who contacted you, and from

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15

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1 where?

2 A. There were people from Vlasenica who enjoyed some trust. There

3 were people in mixed marriages, Muslims married to Serbs, and there was

4 still a flow of communication. And they feared for the lives of their

5 closest relatives and they intervened, and for as long as I could

6 communicate with Mr. Stanic and Mr. Drakulic, I asked them to help these

7 people get out to the areas in the Federation.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

9 Thank you, Mr. President.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Redzic, I also have one question for you. You

12 testified yesterday that Mr. Stanic told you: Muslims will be given Tuzla

13 and Zenica, these two enclaves, that he told you personally: Don't go to

14 Sarajevo. There will be a blood battle there.

15 Did Mr. Stanic tell you where he got his information from that he

16 passed on to you about Tuzla and Zenica and about what would happen in

17 Sarajevo?

18 A. Realistically speaking, one could not expect him to say where his

19 orders came from, but it is not difficult to assume.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I only asked you whether he told you and

21 whether it would be difficult to guess is a totally different matter. But

22 I do understand your answer correctly that he didn't tell you what was the

23 source of his information.

24 A. No, we didn't discuss that. This was very late, just before I was

25 about to leave Vlasenica myself.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it answers my question.

2 Mr. Redzic, first I'll ask the parties whether there's any need to

3 put additional questions to the witness from the Bench.

4 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Questions put by the Bench.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, just briefly, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: There will be one or even more questions by

8 Ms. Loukas to be put to you, Mr. Redzic.

9 MS. LOUKAS:

10 Q. Mr. Redzic, this information in relation to Tuzla and Zenica that

11 you say was conveyed by Mr. Stanic and this question of there being a

12 blood battle in Sarajevo. Of course, these matters are not contained in

13 your statement of 19th of October, 1994, are they?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, that's not a matter that arises out of

15 the questions of the Bench.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Well, it's clear that they don't, and Your Honours

17 will have the material before you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I just said that it's not something that

19 came up as a result of the questions of the Bench. It could have been put

20 to the witness in cross-examination.

21 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour seemed uninterested in the

22 contradictions, and I --

23 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm not uninterested. I gave you full

24 opportunity to deal with whatever contradiction or even apparent

25 inconsistency. But it's not something that came up as a result of the

1 questions of the Bench.

2 MS. LOUKAS: That's fine, Your Honour. I can just tender the

3 statement, and Your Honour will see that that is new information.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any other question you'd like to put?

5 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour. But what I could deal with at this

6 stage is the fact that Ms. Cmeric tells me that there are certain issues

7 of translation in relation to some of the questions asked by your brother

8 Judge El Mahdi which I should put on the record now whilst the witness is

9 still here, I feel.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

11 MS. LOUKAS: At page 45, line 20, I think what appears in the

12 transcript is "I informed the Presidency." That should be "I was informed

13 by the Presidency."

14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to find it. One second. Yes. Well,

15 at least it's -- you suggested it would be the proper translation, that --

16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. That's my understanding from Ms. Cmeric, who of

17 course speaks the language.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MS. LOUKAS: And at page 46, at line 10, the statement was, as in

20 the transcript: "My duty was to prevent." There's a little bit left out

21 there, and that is: "My duty that I was bound to by the

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency was to prevent."

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say there's a part missing in the

24 translation.

25 MS. LOUKAS: I just thought I'd deal with those matters I think

1 whilst the witness is still here.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any -- I don't think there would be

3 any need to seek verification, because otherwise the parties would have to

4 go through the transcripts and see whether the original -- perhaps we

5 could seek confirmation of the correctness.

6 Mr. Redzic, you testified, in response to a question of Judge

7 El Mahdi, that: "Not up until the time that an agreement was reached at

8 the level of the former Yugoslavia and at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

9 that there was no competence for mobilisation." And then your next line

10 was about the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Did you inform them,

11 or were you informed by the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the

12 government and the ministry for national defence that the JNA shouldn't

13 mobilise anyone? Were you informed by them or did you inform them?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Presidency of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina informed all the municipalities that there should be a ban on

16 any further mobilisation until an agreement is reached between Yugoslavia

17 and the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And when mobilisation was

18 carried out illegally, I informed --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I stopped you perhaps too early. Yes.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say that after

21 mobilisation it was my duty to inform the Presidency, the government, and

22 the minister for defence about the situation that had happened and that

23 was in disagreement with the dispatches previously sent from them to us.

24 In a nutshell, this mobilisation was against their orders.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So you received the information that they shouldn't

1 mobilise, and you reported back that they were mobilising, contrary to the

2 instructions. That's clear.

3 Then the next issue is also a matter of translation. You said it

4 was -- at least, it reads in our transcript that it was your duty to

5 prevent, and our attention has been drawn to the fact that your actual

6 words have been that it was your duty -- that you were bound by the

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency to prevent, so that it was not just your

8 duty, but you were duty-bound by the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is

9 that what you said?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So these matters have been clarified now. Since the

12 witness is still there, Mr. Tieger, is there any -- because we couldn't

13 ask any questions any more once the witness has left. I don't know

14 whether you would have any knowledge about that, but about the

15 transcripts. One is date and the other one was a correction of the --

16 seems to be a wrong English version of the...

17 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. I don't think that's anything that

18 requires the witness's presence, and in any event, I'm not prepared to

19 address questions that would be of assistance in that regard at this

20 point.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, there's no need to deal with

22 that immediately in the presence of the witness.

23 Mr. Redzic, I'd like to thank you very much for having come from

24 far away to The Hague and to have answered questions of both parties and

25 of the Bench. And I wish you a safe trip home again. You are excused.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and goodbye.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE ORIE: We could deal with the exhibits at this moment, but

4 the Chamber prefers to receive a new version of 259B.1 before giving any

5 decision on the admission into evidence of the exhibits. But we'd rather

6 not let that wait for a couple of months. So, Mr. Tieger, if you would

7 please deal with the matter this afternoon and come back to it tomorrow

8 morning.

9 Then I'd like to ask to the Prosecution whether it is ready to

10 call its next witness.

11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, we are ready to proceed. I should

12 note at this time that the Prosecution -- that this witness will be led by

13 Carolyn Edgerton, who is now at counsel table.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Welcome in the courtroom, Ms. Edgerton. The

15 next witness, there are no protective measures asked for, and your next

16 witness will be Kadira Brkovic; is that correct?

17 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Madam Usher, may I request you to bring

19 the witness into the courtroom.

20 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, in anticipation of a possible equality

21 of arms argument in light of our new addition to the Prosecution team, I

22 should advise the Court that Mr. Resch, who presented our last witness

23 before we broke for the August recess has left the team and gone back to

24 the United States to work in private practice. So there's no additional

25 gain to the Prosecution team.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's not try to compare the number of people

2 involved in Prosecution and Defence.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I must say, I like to.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. It was an understatement,

6 Ms. Loukas.

7 Good morning, Ms. Brkovic.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

9 JUDGE ORIE: From your answer, I do understand that you hear me in

10 a language you understand. Ms. Brkovic, before giving evidence in this

11 Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

12 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

13 the truth. May I invite you to make that declaration, of which of text

14 will be handed to you now by Madam Usher.

15 WITNESS: KADIRA BRKOVIC

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

20 Ms. Brkovic, you will first be examined by counsel for the

21 Prosecution.

22 Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

23 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Examined by Ms. Edgerton:

25 Q. Good morning, Ms. Brkovic. How are you this morning?

1 A. Good morning. Very well, thank you.

2 Q. Ms. Brkovic, before we begin in detail, I'd like to get you to

3 tell us a little bit about yourself, if that's all right. You were born

4 in Plamenice, in Kljuc municipality; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You're married and you have three daughters?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You've been living in the village of Prhovo in Kljuc municipality

9 since about 1977; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, Mrs. Brkovic, I'd just like to get you to look at a map

12 that's going to appear on the computer monitor in front of you.

13 MS. EDGERTON: And Your Honours, if it could be given a number,

14 please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

16 MS. EDGERTON:

17 Q. Do you see the map, Mrs. Brkovic?

18 JUDGE ORIE: I'd first like to have the map be given a number.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P260.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

23 Q. Do you see the map, Mrs. Brkovic?

24 A. Yes, I do, but I need to put my glasses on.

25 Q. Did you bring them with you today?

1 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Can you identify the village of Prhovo on that map, Mrs. Brkovic?

3 A. Yes, I can.

4 Q. And how far do you see the village of Prhovo to be from the town

5 of Kljuc?

6 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, if I might just interrupt at this point.

7 I think that the witness is a little bit too close to the microphones,

8 which will create problems with the translation and the hearing.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I heard that there was some technical problem.

10 You don't have to worry that much about speaking into the

11 microphone, Ms. Brkovic. It's just if you speak that one or both of the

12 microphones will catch your words anyhow.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I'm thinking perhaps it might be more

14 useful for the witness to actually have the map in front of her rather

15 than sort of going up to the screen --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There are two ways of doing that. First of

17 all, to give the witness a copy of the map, a hard copy. And the other

18 way of doing it could also be to enlarge a bit the picture on the screen.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.

21 MS. EDGERTON:

22 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, how far is the village of Prhovo from the town of

23 Kljuc?

24 A. Ten kilometres.

25 Q. And is there a road link between the two places?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you give us an idea of how big your village is? How many

3 houses, perhaps, are located in your village?

4 A. 45, I believe, thereabouts.

5 Q. Was that the case in 1992?

6 A. Yes. In 1992, at the moment, there are not as many. They have

7 been destroyed.

8 Q. And in 1992, do you have an idea of approximately how many people

9 were living in each house?

10 A. In every house, there were four or five or even more family

11 members.

12 Q. Now, the village of Prhovo itself, is that a Muslim village or a

13 Serb village?

14 A. In the middle, it was Muslim, and around this centre, there were

15 Serbian suburbs, also called Prhovo. Those were Serbian houses.

16 Q. Now, as I said earlier, the time we're going to talk about is late

17 May of 1992. At that time, is it correct that you were alone in the

18 village with your three daughters?

19 A. Yes. Yes. I was alone at home, but there were other people in

20 the village.

21 Q. And where was your husband at that time?

22 A. My husband was in Germany at the time.

23 Q. Now, if we can go to approximately one week before the attack on

24 your village. Do you recall anything unusual happening at that time?

25 A. I remember two neighbours of mine came and told me that they saw

1 the army by Nikola Popovic's house, and then a lorry drove through the

2 village of Prhovo, towards Peci.

3 Q. Where does Nikola Popovic live, or where did he live at that time?

4 A. He lived in his house, a kilometre and a half from the village of

5 Prhovo itself.

6 Q. And could you tell the Court which direction Peci is in relation

7 to Prhovo village. Perhaps I can assist by saying: Is it north, south,

8 east, or west?

9 A. I can show it on the map.

10 Q. Perhaps we can have the -- it might be best to put the map on the

11 ELMO, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we could do so. Well, of course it's on our

13 screen anyhow, but is the direction of any specific interest? Because, of

14 course, the Court sees where Peci is in relation to -- so unless there is

15 any specific relevance for asking the witness whether it was north or

16 west, we see where it is on the map.

17 MS. EDGERTON: That's fine, then, Your Honour. Thank you.

18 Q. Now, Mrs. Brkovic, you mentioned a lorry driving through the town.

19 A. The village.

20 Q. Did you have occasion after that to see any soldiers coming

21 through the town, the village?

22 A. I saw them in the lorry. I saw them wearing uniforms, carrying

23 arms, and I remember it was a Saturday when this lorry drove through.

24 Q. And Mrs. Brkovic, can we move forward in time to one week later.

25 Could you tell us what happened then.

1 A. A week later, we saw a fire and smoke in Plamenice. A few shells

2 exploded some 500 metres away from us. Those were either shells or some

3 sort of a loud explosion. We were in our houses until the soldiers came.

4 They asked us to surrender weapons. I didn't have any weapons to

5 surrender. I was in my house with my daughters. And I heard somebody

6 saying: "Surrender. We won't do anything to you." And one neighbour was

7 shouting: "Get out of your houses. They are setting houses on fire."

8 We didn't know which houses would be set on fire, so I left my

9 house. They started gathering us in one place, and they said they

10 wouldn't do anything to us, for us to gather in that one place.

11 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, if I could just stop you for a second and go back

12 over some of the things that you've talked about. It sounds like there's

13 many things happening at the same time. Could you make it clear to the

14 Court what did you first notice going on?

15 A. First we noticed people gathering, and when this guy said that

16 houses were being set on fire, we first wanted to hide in a cellar. And

17 then they started shooting after us, and then we started walking towards a

18 little forest. The women and the children. There were some 15 of us

19 altogether.

20 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, where were your daughters at that time?

21 A. My daughters were with me, the three daughters of mine.

22 Q. So you and your three daughters went to the forest; is that

23 correct?

24 A. No. The first evening when things happened, when we started

25 walking, it was on a Sunday. Actually, it was a Saturday, Saturday

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1 evening. I can't remember the date. And then my two daughters, with my

2 brother-in-law and his wife, went to the forest. The third daughter, who

3 has weak legs, was afraid to go. She couldn't go. I tried to convince

4 her to go, because the other two had already hid in the forest. When we

5 arrived there, some six or seven of us altogether, there were people

6 shooting after us, shooting at our backs. We were quiet. Some of us

7 cried. The two daughters were not with me. The third daughter was with

8 me. A neighbour of ours went to a Serbian village to inquire what would

9 happen to us, what were they doing to us. And when he arrived there, they

10 told him: "You shouldn't hide in the forest. You should go back home."

11 Two guys of Serbian ethnic origin arrived with him, and when we saw them,

12 we left the forest. We thought they would kill us anyway. So we went to

13 a little meadow. We saw that they were armed. They told us: "Go to your

14 homes. We won't do anything to you."

15 We believed them. We spent the night in Fehret Hadzic's house

16 with my two daughters. There was some other women there as well.

17 Q. Can I stop you there, Mrs. Brkovic. So you were in the forest for

18 some time. You went out of the forest after some Serbs from a

19 neighbouring settlement had assured you it was okay to go back to your

20 homes; is that correct?

21 A. Yes. They said we would be safe in our houses.

22 Q. When you got back to your village, what did you see?

23 A. It was night when we returned that night. It was dark.

24 Q. Now, I need you to perhaps slow down a little bit so that we can

25 go through each thing step by step, if that's okay. Now --

1 A. When we returned, we saw a house on fire, and that was on the

2 following day, when they beat a few people to death. That was on a

3 Saturday. There were some people with swollen heads. Their backs were

4 red. And the others were covered in blood, with injuries on their heads.

5 They had beaten up five or six people, and they had set a house on fire.

6 We stayed there. We extinguished the fire, and this is where we stayed to

7 spend the night there. And then there was Sunday. On that day --

8 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, if we can just stop you again. So we've gone

9 quickly through two days at the end of May, haven't we?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Brkovic, may I ask you the following: I fully

11 understand that you want to tell your story. It is important for this

12 Chamber to sometimes hear a bit more details about one aspect, a little

13 bit less details on other aspects. Would you carefully listen to the

14 question and try to focus your answer on the specific question that has

15 been put to you. So when you testified that you arrived back in your

16 village at night, I would expect Ms. Edgerton to ask you what you would

17 see the next morning. Then tell us what you saw the next morning. But if

18 she asks you what you did the next morning, tell us that you got up and

19 stayed in the house or went out of the house. So try very much to

20 concentrate on the specific questions put to you by Ms. Edgerton, although

21 I fully understand that you would like nothing else than to just tell

22 whatever happened to you. But then we might miss some details. So if you

23 could try to concentrate carefully on the specific questions. Yes?

24 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

25 MS. EDGERTON:

1 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, now --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry.

5 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, on this second day, you've said you went to the

6 forest again and saw a burning house when you came out. Can you tell us

7 why you went to the forest again?

8 A. Well, they were setting fire to houses. That's when we went to

9 the forest. We went to the shelter, to take shelter there. They shot

10 after us. And that's when we went to the forest.

11 Q. Now, Mrs. Brkovic, is this the first day or the second day?

12 A. That was the second time. I didn't say that correctly.

13 Q. So on the second day, who were you in the forest with?

14 A. I was with my daughters. There was one of my daughters there. In

15 fact, two daughters, with my brother-in-law, and the sister-in-law. One

16 of them was with me. That was the evening on which they were cleaning the

17 forest. That was the first day. That was the first time we went to the

18 forest.

19 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, the first time you went to the forest, you were with

20 your daughters and your brother-in-law and his family; is that correct?

21 A. The first time, yes. My brother-in-law didn't go the first day.

22 The first day was when they came to take the weapons and when they wanted

23 to set fire to the houses, when they started shooting at us, that's when I

24 went to the forest.

25 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, you say on the first day they came to take the

1 weapons. Can you tell us now who came to take the weapons.

2 A. Yes. I didn't see them, because I didn't even go to the village.

3 There were a lot of them. There were vehicles. That's what we heard when

4 we were in the forest. They would just pass by. But I don't know how

5 many of them there were.

6 Q. So how do you know, then, that they came to take the weapons,

7 Mrs. Brkovic?

8 A. I know that they called out over a megaphone and asked us to hand

9 over the weapons. They said that they wouldn't do anything to us.

10 Q. Once you heard that announcement over the megaphone, did you or

11 your family do anything?

12 A. We then went out of the house. We were thinking of going there

13 when we heard the shooting. That's when we went to the forest. We set

14 off in the direction of the shelter. They fired at us, and we then set

15 off in the direction of the forest.

16 Q. You stayed in the forest, then, for some time that first day; is

17 that right?

18 A. [Inaudible]

19 Q. Now, the second day you went to the forest again. Do you remember

20 why you went to the forest the second day?

21 A. The second day we went to the forest and they said that they were

22 cleaning the forest. There was ethnic cleansing. They were cleansing the

23 forest. We heard shooting. That's why we went.

24 Q. So, Mrs. Brkovic, you heard shooting. You went with your family

25 to the forest. And now you've mentioned they were cleaning the forest.

1 When you say they were cleaning the forest, what do you mean?

2 A. They used the term "ethnic cleansing" on the radio. We didn't

3 know what it meant. They didn't want anyone to remain in the forest.

4 They were afraid, or something like that.

5 Q. When you say "they," Mrs. Brkovic, who do you mean?

6 A. Well, I mean they were neighbours of ours there, and they told us

7 everything. On the whole, of Serbian nationality, et cetera.

8 Q. Now, do you remember how long you stayed in the forest the second

9 day?

10 A. I don't know. Night was falling. But I couldn't tell you what

11 time it was exactly.

12 Q. Now, you mentioned cleaning the forest. While you were in the

13 forest that second day, did you hear or see anything unusual?

14 A. Well, they were passing through the forest and shooting. I think

15 they were lined up every three to five metres.

16 Q. Now, again, when you say "they," who do you mean? What did you

17 see?

18 A. We didn't see anything at the time. We only heard the shooting.

19 A neighbour went to ask the Serbs, to ask them what we should do, to see

20 whether they would guarantee we could stay there and that there wouldn't

21 be any problems. They said: "Can't you see that it's not safe in the

22 forest? Go home." We believed them and arrived with two other Serbs.

23 They called out to other people who were hiding, to women and children,

24 and told them to go home.

25 Q. Who were these two other Serbs?

1 A. Marinko Suknovic and Stojan Tekic.

2 Q. How did you know them?

3 A. They were neighbours of ours. They lived perhaps a kilometre away

4 from us. Marinko Suknovic did. I had a shop. They would go there. So I

5 knew all of them.

6 Q. So I take it from what you're saying, you saw Marinko Suknovic and

7 Stojan Tekic; is that correct?

8 A. It is.

9 Q. How were they dressed?

10 A. He had a uniform. He had an automatic rifle. Marinko had some

11 sort of work overalls. He had some kind of a weapon. I don't know what

12 kind of a weapon. I know they took something from Sefik Medanovic. He

13 took that weapon on the second day.

14 Q. So after being told this by these two Serbs, did you then return

15 to your village?

16 A. We did.

17 Q. Did you see anything when you got there?

18 A. We spent the night at home. We didn't see anything that night.

19 Q. Now, Mrs. Brkovic, you've mentioned a burning house. Could you

20 place that incident in time for us?

21 A. It was on a Saturday. The last Saturday in May. I don't know the

22 date, though.

23 Q. Do you think it was the first day or the second day or a day

24 following that?

25 A. It was the day after, when the house was set on fire. On

1 Saturday, they beat those people up, and the house was on fire. On

2 Sunday, we spent the night in the house that burnt down. One floor had

3 burnt down. That's where we spent the night. On Monday, that's when they

4 killed everyone and that's the night that we spent there.

5 Q. So the day that they burnt the house and the day that they beat

6 people were the same day; is that correct?

7 A. Those were two days. I couldn't tell you exactly. Yes, when they

8 set fire to the house, they beat the people. It was on the same day.

9 Q. Did you see people with marks of beating on them, Mrs. Brkovic?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Do you know any of those people?

12 A. I do. Camil Medanovic, I know Teufik Medanovic, Sefik Medanovic,

13 Ekrem Hadzic, Tehvid Osmanovic.

14 Q. Can you describe some of the marks of beating that you saw?

15 A. On Camil, I could see that his head was swollen. He had bandaged

16 it. It hurt a lot. His back had been torn. There was a cross made on

17 his back. He said he couldn't even say how much his head hurt. It was

18 terrible to see him.

19 Q. Do you remember where you spent that --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 MS. EDGERTON:

22 Q. Do you remember where you spent that night, Mrs. Brkovic?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. And where was that?

25 A. It was in Fehret Hadzic's house.

1 Q. Were you and your family alone in that house?

2 A. No, we weren't. There were other women there and children. There

3 were a lot of us.

4 Q. And what happened the next day? Can you tell us about that, then?

5 What unusual -- what was the first unusual thing that you saw happen?

6 A. Monday -- on Sunday -- that was the next day. That was a Monday.

7 We then saw the troops arriving. We didn't think they would do anything

8 to us. Naturally, we were in front of our houses as they arrived in the

9 village. We saw a personnel carrier arriving. The women and children

10 took shelter in a shelter. There were a lot of them there, and it wasn't

11 possible to fit any other people in there. My brother-in-law said: "Why

12 are you going to hide? They won't do anything to you." We sat down at a

13 table at my brother-in-law's house when they arrived in the village. They

14 started calling people out. They said: "Come here. We won't do anything

15 to you." When we approached them, they started swearing at us, took us to

16 a house, to Karanfil Osmanovic's house, and lined us up there.

17 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, if I can stop you there, and again we can go back to

18 the beginning of your story for that day. You said you saw troops

19 arriving.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recall -- do you have any idea how many there were?

22 A. There were a lot of them. I think there were about 2.000 of them.

23 They were so numerous that it was impossible to count them. Some of them

24 arrived in buses. They went around the villages and through the forest.

25 Some arrived in the village.

1 Q. Now, who were these troops?

2 A. They were all dressed. Some of them had stockings on them. Some

3 had camouflage on them. There were all sorts of troops there.

4 Q. Were any of them in uniform?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What kind of uniform?

7 A. There were camouflage uniforms, there were some green uniforms,

8 and so on.

9 Q. Now, you mentioned that they called people to come out; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you remember how they called people to come out?

13 A. They said: "Come here. We won't do anything to you. Surrender."

14 Everyone headed towards them. We had to. We didn't know what to do.

15 Q. So, Mrs. Brkovic, when you say "everyone," let's talk about the

16 people you were with at that time. Who in your family went towards them?

17 A. My three daughters, myself, my brother-in-law, his wife, the

18 daughter, two daughters, in fact, the son. There were quite a few other

19 neighbours who were in the vicinity. We all set off in that direction.

20 Safet Medanovic was with us, Suvad Hadzic. We were sitting together and

21 we all set off in that direction.

22 Q. What is your brother-in-law's name, Mrs. Brkovic?

23 A. Ilfad Brkovic.

24 Q. Thank you. Now you said they took you to the front of Karanfil

25 Osmanovic's house; is that correct?

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. At this point I'd like to show you another photograph, if I may.

3 If it could receive a number, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar.

5 MS. EDGERTON: And I think you'll be able to see it on the screen

6 shortly.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P261.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, if you would be able to find somewhere

9 in the next five minutes a moment for the next break.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, keeping in mind the evidence to come,

11 perhaps we can have the witness's comments about this photograph and

12 then --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. I leave it up to you, but just to find a

14 moment somewhere in the next five minutes.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

16 Q. Now, you should -- Your Honour should have the photo on your

17 screen, and Mrs. Brkovic has the -- I'm sorry. That's not the correct

18 photograph. This one, 02033317. There we go. Now everyone has the same

19 photograph available to them.

20 Mrs. Brkovic, do you recognise the house that you see in the

21 picture in front of you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you tell us what that is.

24 A. I can. That was Sefik Medanovic's shop. We were lined up across

25 the road against the wall by a house there. It's 20 or 30 metres from the

1 road. They lined up all the people, the women, and behind them, the

2 children.

3 Q. So, Mrs. Brkovic, you were lined up across the road from this

4 house, against the house of Karanfil Osmanovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, just again, if you can tell me: You say, "They lined us up."

7 When you say "they," who are you talking about?

8 A. I'm talking about the Serbian troops.

9 Q. How do you know the ethnicity of these troops?

10 A. I know that there were no other armed forces there, apart from

11 them.

12 Q. Perhaps this would be a suitable time for a break, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is. We'll have a break until 10 minutes

14 to 1.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, you may proceed.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Now, Mrs. Brkovic, if we can just go back to the events we were

20 talking about before the break. If I understand it correctly, you, your

21 three daughters, your brother-in-law, his wife, and their two daughters

22 and son, all gathered at the Karanfil Osmanovic house; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, in front of the house.

24 Q. Your brother-in-law's name is Ilfad and your sister-in-law, what

25 was her name?

1 A. Asima.

2 Q. And the names of their children?

3 A. Nisveta, Elvedin, Zehra. Those were their names.

4 Q. And you were describing before the break how you were lined up.

5 You said: They lined up all the people, women and children behind. Is

6 that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, could you be perhaps a little bit more precise? How were the

9 people lined up in relation to the Osmanovic house?

10 A. Yes. They were next to the wall. They all faced the wall.

11 First, men, women, then children. They were all lined along the wall with

12 their hands up, and they were not supposed to look. Their eyes had to be

13 covered.

14 Q. And do you remember who ordered that they weren't supposed to look

15 and their hands should be up?

16 A. I don't know exactly who it was. Somebody from that group said

17 that.

18 Q. Do you recall hearing such an order given?

19 A. Yes. They were all shouting: "Hands up." And that's what was

20 done.

21 Q. So people were standing facing the wall. And where exactly were

22 their hands?

23 A. I can show you. Like this.

24 Q. So your hands were clasped behind your head; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. What happened once you were lined up?

2 A. They singled out a woman and also to call people from the wood and

3 tell them that if they didn't leave the forest, that they were the Green

4 Berets, and if they didn't leave the forest, they would all be killed,

5 even the baby that was there. This guy was telling her what she was

6 supposed to repeat after him.

7 Q. Do you remember the name of the woman?

8 A. Sadeta Medanovic.

9 Q. Now, you mentioned the word "Green Berets." To your knowledge,

10 were there any Green Berets operational in the area at that time?

11 A. No. I was not aware of that. I didn't know anything of that.

12 Q. And did something happen after that?

13 A. One guy said: "Our commander is impatient. Take out five people

14 to be shot." And they called the names of Hasan Medanovic, Braco

15 Medanovic. We told them that they were not there, that they were in

16 Germany, and then they started cursing our Ustasha mother, they started

17 telling us that we were lying. And then they pointed their fingers at

18 other men that would be taken out of the line. They were all taken out of

19 the line. Shall I tell you their names?

20 Q. Yes. But if I can just, before you do that, go back a bit. These

21 people called out two men by name; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did they call out any other men by name after that?

24 A. No. No.

25 Q. They were picking people out of the line?

1 A. Yes, in front of us, yes.

2 Q. Now, you were able to, from your post, still see who they picked

3 out of the line?

4 A. Yes. They were standing right in front of me.

5 Q. Who were they?

6 A. Isak Mesic, Halil Medanovic, Izet Hadzic, Hasim Hadzic, and Safet

7 Medanovic.

8 Q. Did something happen to these men?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What happened?

11 A. They said that they would be shot. Then we heard shots and then

12 we were told that they would rest in peace, and we assumed that they were

13 dead. And then they picked out Sefik Medanovic. He was beaten with all

14 sorts of things, whatever they had handy.

15 Q. Now, when you say "they picked out Sefik Medanovic," who picked

16 out Sefik Medanovic?

17 A. I didn't see who picked him. I only recognised Dane Popovic. I

18 recognised his voice, shouting at him. He was cursing his mother. He

19 told him that he was a fucking politician. I saw that there were six of

20 them beating him. They threw him on the ground and he was crying and

21 wailing. He was behind my back, so I could hear his cries clearly. He

22 was beaten to death, without a single bullet being fired.

23 Q. Now, how did you know the voice of one Dane Popovic, and who was

24 he?

25 A. He was a neighbour of mine. He lived between Plamenice and

1 Prhovo, and I was rather familiar with his voice.

2 Q. Now, did you have occasion later, then, to see the body of Sefik

3 Medanovic?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And did you have occasion to later see the bodies of those five

6 men who you spoke about earlier?

7 A. Yes. Yes, I saw all of them.

8 Q. Now, could you tell us what happened -- what you saw and heard

9 happen, then, after Sefik Medanovic was beaten.

10 A. First I saw my brother-in-law's daughter dying in her mother's

11 arms. I suppose that a stray bullet hit her in the forehead. I saw this

12 child dying in her mother's arms. That was the first victim I saw dying.

13 And later on they told us that they were taking people away one by one.

14 And they told us not to leave that place until they left. Sefik

15 Medanovic's mother went there. They started loading people onto a lorry.

16 They threw away their documents. And some of them were on foot, walking

17 towards Peci. When Sefik Medanovic's mother saw his son dead, she said:

18 "Kill me too." But they didn't wait. They fired a burst of fire, some

19 three metres away from me. So the second group of troops that came

20 through the forest also arrived. They cursed us. They had arms and

21 ammunition. And they walked and they carried all this ammo. There was a

22 lot of ammunition.

23 Q. Now, Mrs. Brkovic, you've talked about a very large number of

24 things there in those few seconds, and I'd like to stop you right there

25 and go back to where you began. Because I think it's important for

1 everyone to understand the sequence of events here as best you remember

2 them.

3 Now, you've mentioned several things here. You've mentioned Sefik

4 Medanovic's mother seeing her son dead and asking to be killed. And then

5 a burst of gunfire. But what you first mentioned was your

6 brother-in-law's daughter dying in her mother's arms. Could you maybe

7 think about that and see if you've given us the right chronological

8 sequence of events.

9 A. Yes. First I saw her dying and then they opened fire again. Then

10 Fatima Medanovic asked to be killed. Both her and her daughter-in-law.

11 And then again fire was opened, a burst of fire, a burst of gunfire was

12 opened.

13 Q. And could you tell me, then, what happened to the people who were

14 standing, I suppose, in front of you in the line, who were facing the wall

15 of the Osmanovic house?

16 A. I've already said, they were loaded onto a lorry. Some of them

17 were forced to walk away from there. They cursed us, told us not to move

18 before they came back. Then a second group of troops arrived, and they

19 were passing through.

20 Q. And were these people who were in front of you taken in and loaded

21 onto the lorry before the burst of gunfire or after?

22 A. First, they were shot at, and then, when those men were taken

23 away, they shot at the women.

24 Q. And where was your brother-in-law? Did you see?

25 A. I saw him taken away in front of me, and he was either forced to

1 walk towards Peci village or was loaded onto a lorry.

2 Q. Now, what happened to you as a result of that burst of gunfire?

3 A. When the men were taken away, they started shooting. A bullet hit

4 me. I was still conscious. I was still standing on my feet. My daughter

5 had left the line and hid under a staircase. My older daughter and my

6 brother-in-law's daughter.

7 Q. And what about your two younger daughters? Where were they?

8 A. My younger daughters were in front of me. They were on the

9 ground, lying on the ground in front of me when fire was opened.

10 Q. And how -- you mentioned that you were wounded. Can you tell us

11 how you realised that?

12 A. I felt that it was hot. I was burnt. And then I was wounded

13 again, and then this was it. I realised I was wounded.

14 Q. How were you wounded a second time?

15 A. When the men were taken away, they said: "There is nothing for us

16 to do here. Throw something, a Zolja or a grenade." And this happened

17 from then on, I don't remember anything. All of a sudden it was all dark

18 around me. Those of us in the middle survived and the ones in front of

19 the line all died. I lost consciousness. I felt like I had been given

20 anaesthesia, you know. I was totally, completely lost.

21 Q. Did you eventually -- you eventually regained consciousness. What

22 did you see around you?

23 A. I heard people crying. I saw my daughter and I heard her saying:

24 "Our mother is dead." And the other daughter said: "Just lie still.

25 Let her be." Then I touched myself. I touched my back. I could feel

1 that I was wounded, that I was seriously wounded.

2 Q. What did you then do?

3 A. I told my daughters to go to a cellar, to Karanfil Medanovic's [as

4 interpreted] house. Round a wall there was a cellar. We crawled to that

5 cellar. I took a headscarf from a woman, and I dressed my wounds so as to

6 prevent blood loss.

7 Q. Now, if I can just pause you at this moment to show you another

8 photograph with the ERN number 02033316. It should also be on the screen

9 in front of you.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P262.

11 MS. EDGERTON:

12 Q. Do you recognise the house in this picture, Mrs. Brkovic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What is it?

15 A. This is the house in front of which we were lined up for

16 execution.

17 Q. And you mentioned that once you regained consciousness, you and

18 your daughters went to the basement of Karanfil Osmanovic's house. Do you

19 see that house in this photograph?

20 A. Yes, I can see it. You can see the basement as well. It's all

21 there.

22 Q. And that's the basement of the building on the left-hand side of

23 the photograph; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, in the basement, in the cellar of this house, once you had

1 found your wounds, what did you then do?

2 A. I heard people crying very loud. I could see that my older

3 daughter was not there. I thought that she was dead. So I went out to

4 look for her.

5 Q. And what happened then?

6 A. The wounded people cried loud. They asked for water. I gave them

7 water to drink.

8 Q. You found your daughter?

9 A. Then my daughter came from where she had been hiding under the

10 staircase, together with my brother-in-law's daughter. She asked me:

11 "Mom, are you alive?" I said: "Yes."

12 Q. What then did you do?

13 A. We stayed there a little while. It was already night. Otherwise,

14 they would have searched every house and none of us would have stayed

15 alive.

16 Q. What about some of the other wounded? Did anyone make any effort

17 to help them?

18 A. Yes. We placed them in Sulejman Medanovic's house. There were

19 four persons seriously wounded. Three of them couldn't walk, and my

20 brother-in-law's wife could walk, so she walked there on her own.

21 Q. Who were the other women?

22 A. Hava Medanovic was one, Enesa Medanovic, and Rubija Hadzic.

23 Q. To your knowledge, did all four of those women survive the night?

24 A. Two did, two didn't. Two were dead.

25 Q. And who was that?

1 A. Rubija was dead, and Hava was dead, Hava Hadzic [as interpreted].

2 Hava Medanovic and Rubija Hadzic were dead.

3 Q. And how do you know that?

4 A. In the morning we saw that they were dead.

5 Q. Did you see the two other women alive the next morning?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What did you do the next morning?

8 A. The next morning we started walking to Humici village.

9 Q. And did you have occasion after that to go back to your own

10 village?

11 A. Yes. Three days later, on the fourth day, maybe.

12 Q. Can you tell us about that visit?

13 A. We went to see what had happened to the people who stayed behind.

14 We saw two skeletons by the door. The house was burning down and you

15 couldn't see much of it.

16 Q. I'm sorry. What house was burning down?

17 A. Sulejman Medanovic's house.

18 Q. Did you ever see the two wounded women who were still alive when

19 you left Prhovo again?

20 A. No. We just found bones, skeletons.

21 Q. And who did you think those skeletons belonged to?

22 A. We knew that only four of them were there. Two we found exactly

23 in the place where we left them, and the other two were by the door.

24 Q. And did you think anything as a result of finding them by the

25 door?

1 A. We knew that they had burnt down. We didn't know what else to

2 think. They probably wanted to save themselves from the fire. They

3 wanted to leave. But they couldn't muster the strength.

4 Q. And did you receive any information that made you think they were

5 alive at the time the fire had been set?

6 A. Yes. A neighbour of mine also stayed there that night, one day

7 after us, and in the morning she heard voices. She went to see them and

8 she took them some coffee, and they could still be saved at that point in

9 time.

10 Q. And I take it that you left Prhovo after this visit and returned

11 to Humici; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. About how far is Humici from Prhovo?

14 A. Six kilometres.

15 Q. And you made this journey on foot?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When did you next go to Prhovo after this?

18 A. On the ninth day after that.

19 Q. Can you tell us how that came about and what led up to it?

20 A. We wanted to bury our members of family. We wanted to collect

21 their bodies. We wanted to return to our homes.

22 Q. So who did you have to ask to be able to return to your homes?

23 A. We went to the Serbian command to ask them if we could collect

24 those bodies that were already worm-infested and rotting.

25 Q. And what did the Serbian command say?

1 A. They simply wouldn't allow us to do that. Every day a man would

2 go there to ask. And on the ninth day, he told them that we would all be

3 poisoned with all that, and on the ninth day, finally they allowed us to

4 go up there and collect the bodies.

5 Q. Are you saying that he told them "we would all be poisoned," I

6 don't quite understand. How would that happen?

7 A. I don't know. It was terrible at the time. There were flies

8 transmitting this. It smelled very bad.

9 Q. Did this man who received permission tell you what the Serb

10 command told him?

11 A. Yes. He said we should go there and collect the victims by 11.00

12 or they would come to bury them.

13 Q. And how many people went to collect those victims?

14 A. Perhaps about 15 of us.

15 Q. You were one of these volunteers?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what did you do when you got to the village?

18 A. The men collected the dead. We went home to get a little food.

19 We went to our homes.

20 Q. Do you know how many bodies were collected that day?

21 A. Yes, 38.

22 Q. Did that include victims from the location at which you were

23 wounded?

24 A. Yes. On the whole, it was from that location.

25 Q. Did that include any children, to your knowledge?

1 A. Yes. There were children, the youngest of whom was 6 or 7. There

2 were 10-year-old children too.

3 Q. Did you have any family members among those bodies you located

4 that day?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who was that?

7 A. I saw my brother-in-law's wife, his daughter, and there were other

8 neighbours.

9 Q. And did -- that day, were the group of you able to locate any of

10 the men who had been taken away?

11 A. No. But a bit further down below, they found seven or eight of

12 them.

13 MS. EDGERTON: At this point I'd like to show you, Mrs. Brkovic,

14 another photograph. The number, ERN number, 02033315.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P263.

16 MS. EDGERTON:

17 Q. Looking at that photograph before you, Mrs. Brkovic, do you

18 recognise that location?

19 A. Yes. That's where the bodies were buried.

20 Q. And at the top of the photograph, you see two houses, one on the

21 right and a kind of ruin on the left-hand side. What are those houses?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. Whose houses are they?

24 A. Karanfil Osmanovic and Sefik Medanovic's houses.

25 Q. When you say they found a number of the men who had been taken

1 away at that location, did you have any family members who were recovered

2 at that location?

3 A. No. On the whole, they were neighbours.

4 Q. And at this juncture, I'd like to show you one document, bearing

5 the ERN number 00473294. That's the ERN number of the B/C/S copy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P264.

7 MS. EDGERTON:

8 Q. Perhaps I could just give you a few minutes to have a look at that

9 document, Mrs. Brkovic, and read the names that are listed out on that

10 document to yourself.

11 Mrs. Brkovic, if I can take you in particular to the bottom of the

12 page and the list of names that appears there. I see Sefik Medanovic,

13 Teufik Medanovic, Safet Medanovic, Alaf [phoen] Medanovic, Izet Hadzic,

14 Hasim Hadzic, Ilfad Brkovic, and Isak Mesic. Do you know these people?

15 A. Yes, I know them.

16 Q. When was the last time you saw them alive?

17 A. The last time I saw them was in the line-up with me.

18 Q. Now, you see at the bottom of the page, before the list of names

19 begins, there's a reference that says "Note: In fighting with army and

20 police members, in addition to the above named who were captured in the

21 zone of combat operations and imprisoned, the following persons were

22 killed."

23 Now, to your knowledge, were any of these men involved in fighting

24 at the time you saw them or the period leading up to that?

25 A. No. No resistance was mounted of any kind.

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1 Q. To your knowledge, were any of these men Green Berets?

2 A. No.

3 Q. To your knowledge, on the day you last saw them alive, were any of

4 these men in possession of any weapons?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, going back to the burial of the bodies you and

7 the group of people recovered from Prhovo, can you tell me how they were

8 ultimately buried?

9 A. An excavator came to bury them. The man who asked for them to be

10 excavated, he said: "If the excavator doesn't leave, you will be buried

11 alive here."

12 Q. Do you know who brought the excavator?

13 A. I don't. I don't know the people. I don't know.

14 Q. Did you recognise any of the people who were there operating the

15 excavator?

16 A. I didn't.

17 Q. Now, on that occasion when you were back in your village to bury

18 the dead, did you go back to your own house at all?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. And what did you do there?

21 A. I took some things for the children and some food that I had in

22 the house.

23 Q. Anything else?

24 A. Nothing else. They didn't let us do anything else until they had

25 finished their work.

1 Q. Were you able to remain in your village and go back to your

2 house?

3 A. Everything had been burnt down. One of the rooms had burnt down.

4 Everything else was black. There was no electricity. Nothing remained

5 there, none of the utilities.

6 Q. Where, then, did you go?

7 A. We then returned to the Humici village again.

8 Q. And how long did you remain there?

9 A. For three months.

10 Q. And did you have to do anything to be able to leave there?

11 A. In Humici, you mean to move on from Humici?

12 Q. Yes, that's correct.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What was that?

15 A. We had to request to visit someone, to stay with someone. We

16 didn't have anything to eat.

17 Q. How did you ultimately travel -- how were you ultimately able to

18 travel out of the village of Humici, to leave?

19 A. We had to hand over our property. We had to de-registered and say

20 that we were moving out permanently.

21 Q. How did you do that?

22 A. Well, we went to the municipal building. We signed a document

23 saying what we were leaving. We de-registered.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, may I ask you a question. But perhaps

25 I'll first ask the witness: Do you understand or speak any English?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please take off your headphones for

3 one second.

4 Ms. Edgerton, how much time would you still need? Because looking

5 at the statements the witness has given, it seems to the Chamber that

6 you're close to a finalisation. For perhaps obvious psychological

7 reasons, the Chamber would like the cross-examination to start, if it were

8 only for a couple of minutes. I hope that the parties do understand what

9 makes it -- so therefore, since we usually sit until a quarter to 2.00,

10 and I'm looking at the interpreters whether we could, well, perhaps have

11 five or seven or eight minutes more, if you would conclude and if there

12 would be a possibility to start with the cross-examination for a couple of

13 minutes, that would, in the view of the Chamber --

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the parties will understand for the

16 well-being of the witness later this day up until tomorrow in the

17 afternoon, it might be good that we -- that she has answered the first

18 questions in cross-examination. So, therefore, if you would keep that in

19 mind, and to the extent possible, finish as quickly as possible. Because

20 this courtroom is needed after half an hour break.

21 MS. EDGERTON: In fact, Your Honour, I was about to thank

22 Mrs. Brkovic, because --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do so. Yes, put your...

24 MS. EDGERTON: Mrs. Brkovic, I wanted to thank you now for being

25 here today, because that concludes the questions I have to ask you now.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Edgerton. Could I ask the

2 witness again to take her earphones off for just one second.

3 Ms. Loukas, we are now about to start the cross-examination, as I

4 explained. Just for your information, as I told the parties yesterday,

5 the Chamber has at its disposal the statements in order to be better able

6 to control the examination of the witnesses.

7 The Chamber noted that there are quite some differences in the

8 various statements the witness has given. The Chamber also noticed that

9 there are elements in those statements that are similar or even exactly

10 the same. So we both have seen the similarities and the differences.

11 You also are aware that under the Statute and the Rules, this

12 Chamber has to pay specific attention to those that were victimised by the

13 conflict, and there are some good reasons to believe that the present

14 witness may be in the category of victims.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I can I think assist in this regard. I

16 don't actually have any cross-examination of this witness.

17 JUDGE ORIE: No cross-examination at all. Well, of course, it's

18 the first time. So I don't have to give you any further guidance.

19 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour. I don't think you have to go any

20 further, and I don't think we have to waste any more court time.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Thank you very much for this

22 information, Ms. Loukas.

23 Mrs. Brkovic, it certainly is explained to you by Ms. Edgerton or

24 by counsel for the Prosecution that usually after you've answered the

25 questions put to you by the Prosecution, that then questions will be put

1 to you by the Defence. I just was informed by the Defence that they have

2 no further questions for you, and the other Judges informed me that they

3 have no further questions for you, and I also have no further questions

4 for you. That means that where you might have expected to have to answer

5 questions of the Defence and of the Bench as well, that by answering the

6 questions of the Prosecution, that your examination is now already

7 concluded.

8 I'd like to thank you very much for coming, answering questions

9 put to you. The Chamber is aware that it might not have been easy for

10 you, because your answers indicated clearly that these were traumatic

11 events for you on which you had to testify. The Chamber highly

12 appreciates that you have come and that you testified, and we wish you a

13 safe trip home again.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, you may escort Ms. Brkovic out of

16 the courtroom.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn now and we'll resume tomorrow -- yes,

19 Mr. Hannis.

20 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, may I mention one matter regarding

21 scheduling tomorrow.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MR. HANNIS: We have a witness from Vlasenica scheduled tomorrow.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MR. HANNIS: I understand that we're going to try to proceed by

1 Rule 89(F).

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 MR. HANNIS: There's a possibility then, depending on the amount

4 of cross-examination that we might finish with him tomorrow, before the

5 end of the day. The next witness will probably not be ready until

6 Thursday morning. So if we could do some housekeeping matters or maybe

7 some Rule 92 bis read-ins.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. HANNIS: I would like to suggest that, if it occurs that way.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was telling your programme, I saw it again

11 and again to read into the transcript some material.

12 We will adjourn until tomorrow at 2.15 p.m., in Courtroom III,

13 this same courtroom.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of

16 September, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.

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