1 Monday, 18 October 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Momcilo Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Good afternoon, after a break of one week, to everyone in and
10 around this courtroom. I'd like to start first with one remaining
11 procedural issue, that is, the --
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- that we have a number of exhibits where the OTP,
14 and I'm asking specific attention to the parties for the fact that these
15 are exhibits that were tendered under seal. I'm talking about the numbers
16 P200 to P203, that the OTP would have gotten back to the Defence on
17 Friday, the 15th of October, and that the Defence would then take a
18 position on admission by today. I'm not inviting you to express
19 yourselves on the contents of these exhibits, but has the Defence taken a
20 position? Has the Defence received information from the Prosecution?
21 MS. LOUKAS: Well, in fact, Your Honour, that was a matter I was
22 going to raise today, and fortunately, Your Honour has. In fact, we have
23 not received that information, that selection from the Prosecution at this
24 stage. I think that was meant to be by the 15th, as Your Honour has
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Last Friday, yes.
2 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. And our case manager, Ms. Cmeric, in fact sent
3 an e-mail in relation to that on the 16th, reminding the Prosecution of
4 that, and the deadline. But we haven't at this stage, prior to coming
5 into court, received a response in relation to that as yet.
6 JUDGE ORIE:
7 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm not in the loop on this particular
8 dialogue between the Defence and the Prosecution. I will look into it
9 during the recess, and I will try to get back to you either today or
10 tomorrow morning.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the Chamber could be informed about -- well,
12 first of all, of course, the reason of the delay, because it has been --
13 the parties have been instructed according to this schedule, and at least
14 when we have resolved it, because I take it it's not very dramatic if it
15 would take one or two more days, but let's try to resolve the matter,
16 because there are a lot of other exhibits still to be taken positions upon
17 and we'd like to do that all in once.
18 Then, apart from this one procedural issue, are there other
19 procedural issues that have to be raised at this moment?
20 MS. LOUKAS: Just very quickly, Your Honour. In relation to the
21 next witness, I've indicated to Ms. Karagiannakis that I have an objection
22 in relation to some terminology that was used in the summary.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MS. LOUKAS: Ms. Karagiannakis has dealt with that, and I think
25 that issue is settled between the parties. That just leaves one remaining
1 aspect, because the term is actually used -- it's an overarching term
2 that's used in paragraph 20 of the statement, expelled, and in the
3 circumstances, I'd be objecting to the use of an overarching term of that
4 nature as opposed to the eliciting of evidence from the witness in
5 relation to the direct evidence that the witness can give of those
6 particular matters.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Karagiannakis.
8 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour. Our position is it should
9 remain in the statement. I intend to examine the witness on what he means
10 when he uses that term so that the Court and the Defence can understand
11 precisely the basis for his use of that term.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The words do not appear in the summary?
13 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: I have excluded them from the summary.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You have excluded them from the summary. Does that
15 mean that the summary I have on my desk is already the amended one? Where
16 did it appear, so that I can ...
17 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Your Honour, it appeared in the last sentence
18 of the first paragraph.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: And --
21 JUDGE ORIE: And it's replaced by what word now?
22 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: It would be -- delete that word and then end
23 to the end of the sentence "that left after the shelling."
24 JUDGE ORIE: So that means then -- yes. Okay. Then we hear that
25 from you because I take it that the summary to the extent is used as an
1 89(F) summary. Yes.
2 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: It also appears, Your Honour, at the -- in the
3 last paragraph of the summary.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: And it reads: "And the expulsion of." Those
6 words are deleted, replaced with "and," and then after "Muslims" insert
7 the word "leaving."
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Will the Chamber receive an amend the copy of
9 the --
10 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
12 Ms. Loukas, having heard the response of the Prosecution where
13 Ms. Karagiannakis explained to us that she'll further explore the matter
14 of the wordings in the first line of paragraph 20, the Chamber sees at
15 this moment no reason to not to -- not to admit the statement into
16 evidence under 89(F), but we'll hear what the witness will testify about
18 MS. LOUKAS: As Your Honour pleases.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MS. LOUKAS: That just leaves one final matter that I want to deal
21 with at this stage. Your Honours will recall that on the 4th of October,
22 the week before last, I did indicate that I would be proposing to file to
23 withdraw, in light of the inadequate time granted to the Defence and in
24 the circumstances, the question of a fair trial. I can indicate, of
25 course, Your Honour, we were dealing with witnesses that particular week,
1 and last week, as Your Honours are well aware, have been dealing with
2 92 bis, and I'll be dealing with the witnesses this week, but I propose to
3 be in a position to file the necessary documentation next week.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You said the necessary documentation. That is
5 documentation in relation to the --
6 MS. LOUKAS: Question of withdrawal, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Question of withdrawal. Of course, I couldn't
8 say that the Chamber is looking forward to see it. I would say rather the
9 opposite. But I do understand that it's not -- it's still in your mind
10 and that you'll file the request and what needs to support the request --
11 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- soon. Yes.
13 MS. LOUKAS: Just as Your Honour is not looking forward to
14 receiving it, I'm not looking forward to drafting it, but that's another
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that in that respect, the feelings are
18 MS. LOUKAS: One further matter, Your Honour. My niece is
19 currently staying with me. She is 15 years of age, and I wanted her to
20 come to court today, but apparently she is 15 years and eight months and
21 you have to be 16. So I have to make a formal application to Your Honours
22 so that my niece can come to court tomorrow.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would be for tomorrow?
24 MS. LOUKAS: I would think for tomorrow.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am -- we'll have to consider that. Have you
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 exchanged views with the Prosecution on what will be the subject of -- I
2 do understand that four months is not a lot of difference. I mean, 16, 15
3 years and 8 months, but, on the other hand, you'll understand what is our
4 only concern about that is not to expose persons under a certain age to --
5 especially when it comes to testimony which might be shocking.
6 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, I do not know exactly what evidence
8 we'll hear tomorrow. Of course, I do not know your relative as far as --
9 I mean, there's quite a variety of -- in this age. I take it, Ms. Loukas,
10 that, first of all, of course, you'll take some responsibility for
11 yourself knowing exactly what it is about. We'll give you a decision, but
12 I'd also like for you to consult with the Prosecution to the extent that
13 the risks are not such that we would later on regret that we allowed her
14 to be present.
15 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed, Your Honour. I understand that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll give a decision.
17 MS. LOUKAS: But I'm sure we can come to some accommodation in
18 that regard.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MS. LOUKAS: One final matter, just briefly. In relation to the
21 witness that is to follow, the next witness, and of course the next
22 witness is --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is a protect witness, yes.
24 MS. LOUKAS: -- is a protected witness. I'll indicate that I have
25 made some objections in relation to that particular statement, because it
1 is a rather long statement and has, in the Defence view, a rather --
2 certainly a large amount of extraneous material, we would submit, and I've
3 indicated some objections to the Prosecution. I think the Prosecution
4 lawyer handling that particular witness is Mr. Margetts, and I just wanted
5 to place that on the record as well. Because it is a very long statement,
6 almost in the nature of a novella, and in the circumstances, Your Honour,
7 I think requires some streamlining. And I just want to place that on the
8 record that I've made that objection, and I think it's being considered at
9 this time by the Prosecution.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we'll see then what remains finally.
11 Yes, having dealt with these procedural issues, on the list,
12 Ms. Karagiannakis, I do not find your name as the one who would examine
13 the next witness, but you will.
14 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: I will be doing so.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And you're ready to start it.
16 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures, then. Madam Usher, would you
18 please escort the witness into the courtroom.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Vatric.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to
23 make a solemn declaration prior to giving evidence in this court. The
24 text of this solemn declaration is now handed out to you by Madam Usher.
25 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vatric, you'll first be examined by
6 Ms. Karagiannakis, counsel for the Prosecution.
7 You may proceed, Ms. Karagiannakis.
8 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Could the witness please be shown his statement dated 21 January
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that statement would have Exhibit
13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P322.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 WITNESS: OMER VATRIC
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examined by Ms. Karagiannakis:
18 Q. Mr. Vatric, do you recognise this statement as a statement that
19 you have given previously to representatives of the ICTY?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you have a chance to review this statement before today's
22 court proceedings?
23 A. Yes, I have.
24 Q. Could you please look at paragraph 19 of the statement. In that
25 paragraph, in the fourth full sentence, reference is made to the Hotel
1 Trnovo. Should that reference read "Hotel Treskavica"?
2 A. Yes, by all means. There is no such thing as a Hotel Trnovo.
3 It's Hotel Treskavica.
4 Q. Now with that correction, are you satisfied that this statement is
5 correct and accurate?
6 A. I certainly agree that it is truthful.
7 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Now, Your Honours, I propose to read a summary
8 of the statement before asking the witness any more questions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Vatric, Ms. Karagiannakis will read a
10 summary of your statement because we might not go through all the details
11 of your statement and focus on specific parts of it, but in order for the
12 public to know what your statement is about, she'll read the summary.
13 Please proceed, Ms. Karagiannakis.
14 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: From February 1991, the witness was a member
15 of the Executive Board of Trnovo. This body constituted the municipal
16 government. He provides evidence about the political situation and
17 personalities in the municipality during 1991 and 1992, including the SDS
18 municipal leaders: Radivoje Draskovic and Glisa Simanic. The witness
19 testifies as to the build-up to and subsequent shelling and takeover of
20 Trnovo and its aftermath, including the number of casualties and the
21 destination and numbers of the Muslim population that left after the
23 All of the officials bodies of the municipality had Serb bodies
24 elected as shadow organisations. A Serb MUP was created and located in
25 the cultural centre, over which the Serb flag was raised. Three
1 checkpoints were established in Trnovo in March 1992. The White Eagles
2 were manning a checkpoint in the first half of April 1992. They stopped
3 him and another Muslim and, after checking their identity cards, they were
4 not allowed to go to Trnovo town after that.
5 On the 1st of May, 1992, the witness returned to Trnovo by an
6 alternative route and found that the municipal organisation had been
7 split; a coordination body between Muslims and Serbs had been established;
8 and Serbs were wearing uniforms and trenches were being dug around the
10 On 24 May 1992, a municipal War Presidency was formed and the
11 Serbs were invited to join; however, they declined to do so and withdrew
12 from all public institutions. Seven days before the attack on Trnovo,
13 Serbs started moving around the town and tanks appeared. The day before
14 the attack Serbs started leaving the town, and the witness's Serb
15 secretary warned him to take care of himself because "something very
16 serious is about to happen."
17 The town was shelled the next day, 31 May 1992, resulting in five
18 deaths, the capture and disappearance of 14 people, and approximately two
19 and a half thousand Muslims leaving to various locations. The witness was
20 responsible for the accommodation of the Muslims that left. Upon his
21 return to Trnovo town, he observed that many houses had been burned or
22 damaged and the mosque has been pulled down.
23 Q. Mr. Vatric, can you tell the Court what position you held in the
24 municipality of Trnovo during 1991 and 1992.
25 A. I was secretary of the secretariat for economic and financial
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 matters, as well as general social affairs. So this was a very
2 comprehensive secretariat. At the same time, I was a member of the
3 Executive Council of the municipality from 1991 onwards and after the war
4 too, of course.
5 Q. What's the role of the Executive Board of the municipality?
6 A. The Executive Board of the municipality of Trnovo is practically
7 the executive that is then answerable to the Assembly of Trnovo.
8 Q. What was the population of Trnovo municipality, approximately, in
10 A. The municipality of Trnovo had a population of about 7.000 on an
11 area of 450 square kilometres. So it was very sparsely populated.
12 Q. Can you tell the Court the ethnic breakdown of that population?
13 A. 70 per cent of the population was Bosniak Muslim, and 30 per cent
14 were Serbs. There were very few Croats, hardly any, perhaps one or two
15 per cent, but certainly not more than that.
16 Q. Can you tell us what the population of Trnovo town was in 1991?
17 A. The town of Trnovo is a very small town, very small. The
18 population was about 2.000 to 2.500, at maximum. That is the town itself.
19 And around Trnovo are villages that are not really villages per se but
20 part of the town, but all things considered, the population would not
21 exceed 2.000.
22 Q. And what was the ethnic breakdown of the population of Trnovo
24 A. I think that Trnovo itself had a population that was about 50 or
25 55 per cent Bosniak Muslim. The rest were Serbs.
1 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Could the witness please be shown the map
2 Sarajevo within BiH, please.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P323.
4 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: And could the map, please, be placed on the
5 ELMO so that the witness can mark it.
6 Q. Can you briefly explain Trnovo's position in respect of the
7 Sarajevo area.
8 A. Trnovo lies to the south-east of Sarajevo. It is one -- it used
9 to be one of the ten municipalities of Sarajevo before the war. As I
10 said, it stretches over an area of 450 square kilometres to the south-east
11 of Sarajevo. And it is across the communication line to Foca, from
12 Sarajevo, and through to the eastern Herzegovinian access to sea and up to
13 the north-east, to Visegrad, and then, of course, to the south-west, to
14 Montenegro. So it is the south-eastern part of Sarajevo.
15 Q. Can you describe to the Court the main roads that provide access
16 to the sea from Sarajevo.
17 A. Yes. There are two main roads linking Sarajevo with the sea.
18 This is the M-17, Sarajevo-Konjic-Mostar-Ploce, and a second road going
19 from Sarajevo across Trnovo and Foca and on to Gacko, Bileca until
20 Dubrovnik. These were the two main roads in the direction of the sea.
21 Q. Could you please take a pen and just trace the road through Konjic
22 and Mostar to the sea and mark that with the number 1. And then trace the
23 other road you described on the map and mark that with the number 2.
24 A. The road number 1 and this is the road number 2.
25 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Now, does road number 2 actually pass
1 through the -- through Trnovo town itself?
2 A. Yes, it does. It passes through the centre of Trnovo.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you. The map can be put away.
4 Were there any JNA barracks in Trnovo prior to the war?
5 A. No, not in the area of Trnovo municipality. There were no JNA
6 barracks. There were just two facilities of a different character on the
7 slopes of the Jahorina mountain, but they were not the typical military
9 Q. Where were the nearest JNA barracks to Trnovo municipality before
10 the start of the war?
11 A. The closest barracks were Kalinovik, Hadzici and Lukavica. I
12 think those were the closest barracks.
13 Q. Did the JNA barracks at Kalinovik have artillery?
14 A. Well, of course. These were the barracks of the Yugoslav People's
15 Army that had long been in existence.
16 Q. Just going back to the issue of the two roads that provide access
17 to the sea from Sarajevo. You told us about a road going through Konjic
18 and Mostar. Now, during 1992, which forces controlled the areas through
19 which that road, which is marked as number 1, controlled it?
20 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that question, I
21 think it probably needs a little bit more delineation as to time in 1992
22 we're talking about.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Karagiannakis.
24 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes.
25 Q. From April 1992, which forces controlled that road to the sea
1 going through Konjic and Mostar?
2 A. In April 1992, Ilidza and Hadzici were under the control of the
3 Serb forces. So this particular road had been severed, leaving from
4 Sarajevo. Now, when we talk about the roads to the sea, I wouldn't know
5 which forces held which areas, but I think that near Mostar, there was one
6 section of the road that wasn't passable, that was actually occupied. But
7 in Ilidza and Hadzici, the road had been blocked.
8 Q. And which forces controlled the municipalities of Konjic and
9 Mostar at that time? If you know.
10 A. Konjic was under the control of the Army of Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina. That was around April.
12 Q. And Mostar?
13 A. I wouldn't know about Mostar. I wasn't in Mostar at the time.
14 But there were forces of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the HVO, and
15 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But I wouldn't really
16 know which sections of the road belonged to which forces, because I was
17 not there at the time.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now I just want to move on to a number of
19 events that you describe in your statement that occurred before the 31st
20 of May. In paragraph -- I'll ask you to look at paragraph 8 of your
21 statement. There you say that during 1991, you noticed changes taking
22 place, and I quote: "I noticed it first through the actions of these two
23 colleagues," and there you're referring to Mr. Adzic and Mr. Boskovic.
24 Could you tell the Court what changes you're referring to there?
25 A. These were mostly changes at the workplace. These were two
1 colleagues of ours working together with us with the Executive Board.
2 They were young people who did their job in a very proper way prior to the
3 war, in a way that was in no way different from our working style. At the
4 beginning of 1991, you could already feel them being distanced in terms of
5 the decision-making process, the process of -- the decision taking wasn't
6 as easy as before. They did not state their positions very clearly as
7 before. So you couldn't really say what it was, tangibly, that was
8 different with the two colleagues, but you could feel the difference in
9 their conduct at the meetings, where they would tend to postpone certain
10 matters for some later stage. We noticed perhaps most of all that they
11 were in a way losing their autonomy in what they were doing.
12 Q. You said there they would tend to postpone certain matters for
13 some later stage. What sort of matters are you talking about there?
14 A. Generally, the Executive Board discussed a number of issues of the
15 local character pertaining to the municipality, utilities, schooling, and
16 so on. Since Trnovo was a local community, it did not have its own
17 sources, but depended on the funds from Sarajevo. That is why we mainly
18 dealt with local issues, road-building, infrastructure, and so on. These
19 were issues that could not be considered major issues for such a small
20 community and that would not really lead to any great changes in the
21 community. So issues of local infrastructure, education, companies active
22 in the area, whereas other matters were mostly related to the town of
24 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know which party these two people belonged
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 A. They were nominated on behalf of the SDS, so they were members of
2 the SDS and were designated by the party as the candidates.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, can you please have a look at paragraph 10 of
4 your statement. You say there in the first line: "Further developments
5 were a reflection of the developments in Sarajevo and East Bosnia rather
6 than the situation in Trnovo itself." Could you please explain what you
7 mean by that statement.
8 A. Trnovo was a small town, a community where people knew each other.
9 There were no conflicts locally. And the events of the time were actually
10 a reflection of what was going on at the higher level in Sarajevo, which
11 was the political centre of the country, where the political conflicts
12 could be seen aired on the TV and in the mass media, which of course had
13 an impact on Trnovo. And already in the first half of 1992, in Eastern
14 Bosnia, there were conflicts in place. People started moving towards
15 Central Bosnia, and the population leaving Foca and other places over
16 there passed through Trnovo. And that's what I meant by saying this. Of
17 course, inevitably, this disrupted the relations in Trnovo.
18 Q. What was the -- insofar as you know, what was the population
19 leaving Foca and passing through Trnovo, what ethnicity was that
21 A. I wouldn't know their numbers, but a lot of people passed through
22 Trnovo in 1992. There were large columns of people, of Muslims, from
23 Eastern Bosnia.
24 Q. Now, could you have a look at paragraph 11. There you say that
25 you heard about the Crisis Staff. When and how did you hear about the
1 establishment of the SDS Crisis Staff?
2 A. I personally did not know when the Crisis Staff - that is, the SDS
3 Assembly - was established. I wasn't politically active in either of the
4 parties, so I wasn't a member of the forum of political parties. But
5 there were some indications pointing to the fact that such institutions
6 had been established in Trnovo as well. This typical period, winter from
7 2001 to 2002, when certain staffs and assemblies were established, it's
8 very difficult for me to specify the dates. But the end of 1991 up to the
9 spring of 1992, this became apparent due to the different signs that were
10 placed on the institutions, people claiming to be members of different
11 institutions. All the issues that I could notice while discharging my
12 regular duties at the municipality.
13 Q. How did you first hear about the creation of the SDS Crisis Staff?
14 A. I learnt it from colleagues and I could see some places where
15 flags were hoisted where there were no flags before, next to the Hotel
16 Treskavica, culture centre, and other places where there were Serb
17 companies. So I did not know precisely that the Assembly had been
18 established, but I could notice it by these new manifestations and of
19 course from conversations with my colleagues.
20 Q. Now, in your statement you said two things. You said that you
21 heard about the creation of an SDS Crisis Staff and then you heard about a
22 Serb assembly. Now, I'm asking you now about the SDS Crisis Staff just to
23 make it clear.
24 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that, what's
25 actually stated at paragraph 11 is: "I had no personal knowledge of the
1 establishment of the SDS Crisis Staff. I had heard about it, but my only
2 knowledge was hearsay and I do not feel competent to comment on these
3 matters. I did not attend meetings where subjects like this were
4 discussed." So the paraphrasing that Ms. Karagiannakis gave that
5 particular aspect needs some correction.
6 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: I'm happy to quote the precise passage to the
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: -- Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
11 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:
12 Q. Have a look at paragraph 11 and have a look at the first and
13 second sentences of that paragraph. I'm going to read them out to
14 you: "I had no personal knowledge of the establishment of the SDS Crisis
15 Staff. I had heard about it," and then the sentence continues. Would you
16 just tell the Court when and how you heard about it.
17 A. In any case, I wasn't officially informed about the establishment
18 of such a body, although I was an official of the municipality, and it
19 would have been quite normal for me to be informed officially of it in
20 normal times. The colleagues I heard this from were people who knew of
21 this because they were members of other political parties and were in
22 communication with these people. Mehmed Mulaosmanovic was the president
23 of the municipality of Trnovo. He had this information, and I can tell
24 you that I heard it from him, but I could not, of course, say who the
25 others were that I also heard it from. But he was one of them, and he was
1 an official there.
2 Q. And do you remember when you heard it from Mr. Mulaosmanovic?
3 A. As I've said, it's very difficult to date this. I really have to
4 speak of the period of the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992. I
5 cannot be certain in any way about the dates, and that's why I would like
6 to keep it at just dating it to the period.
7 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Okay. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Karagiannakis, I'm a bit confused. Perhaps you
9 could clarify that for me. In paragraph 11 of the statement, a
10 distinction is made between the SDS Crisis Staff and -- well, at least, I
11 don't know whether it's a distinction. SDS Crisis Staff and Serb
12 Assembly, which seems to be two different bodies. Whereas in the answer
13 of the witness on page 17, line 2, it reads: "I personally did not know
14 when the Crisis Staff, that is, the SDS Assembly, was established." Could
15 you clarify whether we are talking about one or about two bodies.
16 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm now going to move on to
17 the issue of the Serb Assembly. There was some confusion in I think what
18 the witness understood and said. That's why I asked him specifically
19 about the Crisis Staff in the last set of questions, and now I'll ask him
20 about the Serb Assembly and he'll be able to hopefully clarify it for the
22 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps you could confront him with his previous
23 answer where he seems to put them together. It's page 17, line 2, at the
25 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: I'm afraid, Your Honour, I don't have that --
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'll read it for you. Perhaps I could ask a
3 Mr. Vatric, you said in your testimony a couple of minutes
4 ago: "I personally did not know when the Crisis Staff, that is, the SDS
5 Assembly, was established."
6 From your written statement, it appears that -- at least, that's
7 how I read it - that the Crisis Staff is not exactly the same as the SDS
8 Assembly. Could you please clarify whether you consider them to be two
9 different bodies or one body, and to explain to us what, if different
10 bodies, what the one was and what the other was.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think these are two distinct
12 bodies, although I could not really speak about their jurisdictions, what
13 their purview was. But of course, the Assembly was supposed to be the
14 official representative body of the municipality of Trnovo that was
15 supposed to assume all the tasks that the legally elected assembly
16 discharged. Whereas the Crisis Staff, according to what I inferred from
17 what I knew, because I could not really firsthand have any experience of
18 it, was an organ formed by the SDS to operate at the time. So these
19 should be two distinct bodies.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Karagiannakis.
21 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:
22 Q. At paragraph 11 of your statement, you say, and I'll read out the
23 sentence to you: "I heard that a Serb Assembly had been officially
24 elected, but I did not attend any of its meetings."
25 Could you please tell the Court how and when you heard about the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 election of a Serb Assembly.
2 A. Again, I heard this from my colleagues in the municipality, having
3 been a member of the Executive Board, and my colleagues having been
4 members of the different political parties, I learnt it from conversations
5 with them. Again, I cannot say whether it was the beginning of 1992 or
6 the end of 1991, but it was wintertime, and I was told that a second
7 assembly had been established, assembly of Trnovo, that was supposed to
8 continue functioning. Of course, I did not really think about it
9 afterwards, because I just thought it was a regular body.
10 Q. Then you go on to say in paragraph 11: "In 1992, the Hotel
11 Treskavica was the place where they had their official meetings."
12 Now, could you please tell the Court who or what you mean when you
13 say "they" in that sentence.
14 A. Of course. They were the Serbian Democratic Party that assumed
15 the political role, formed its parallel organs. It was seated in the area
16 of Hotel Treskavica in Trnovo and that is why their meetings were mostly
17 held in Hotel Treskavica.
18 Q. Did you see the SDS members gathering for those meetings?
19 A. I saw a number of times the SDS people leaving to Hotel
20 Treskavica. I was, however, never there. I don't know whether they held
21 their meetings there, or what they were doing there. I just saw them
22 going to one of the rooms in Hotel Treskavica.
23 Q. And when was the first time you saw them going there?
24 A. I couldn't say when it was that I first saw them there, because it
25 is true that Serbs did meet in Hotel Treskavica. And I saw politicians
1 meeting there. I saw them in 1991 and in 1992. I cannot, though, give
2 you a specific date. But it was really often that I would see these
3 people there.
4 Q. Right at the end of that paragraph, you say, and I quote: "I know
5 that one day the Serb MUP was created and located in the culture centre.
6 They raised the Serb flag over the building."
7 Now, when did you see -- sorry. How do you know that the Serb MUP
8 was created and located in the culture centre?
9 A. It was easy to come by that information because there were people
10 of Serb nationality working in MUP who separated themselves and were
11 stationed at the cultural centre that was just being built. The building
12 works were nearing the end there. And they hoisted their flag there,
13 which meant that they were forming a new institution.
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the end part of
15 the answer.
16 A. But I apologise, because of course 15 years have elapsed, and that
17 is quite a long period of time.
18 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:
19 Q. Mr. Vatric, I hear and see on my screen that the interpreter could
20 not hear the last part of your answer to that question. Could you please
21 repeat it. And perhaps if you could lean a little bit more closer to the
23 A. I know that people of Serb ethnicity, police officers, used to
24 work at the Trnovo police station. They left the Trnovo police station
25 and then were stationed at the cultural centre, which was supposed to be
1 the general community centre. They hoisted their flag there and
2 established a new institution, and this was common knowledge. The only
3 thing I cannot tell you is the specific date. But I believe it was in
5 Q. All right. Now, you say that they raised a Serb flag over the
6 building. Can you describe what that flag looked like.
7 A. This was the SDS flag, with the four S's in the middle.
8 Q. Now, could you please -- I refer you now to paragraph 13 of your
9 statement. Just a general question in relation to this paragraph and then
10 a more specific one. Now, you mentioned that Radivoje Draskovic, and in
11 paragraph 9 of your statement you say that Draskovic had been the former
12 president of the Executive Board before the elections. And then full
13 stop: "At that time I believe he was the president of the Municipal Board
14 of the SDS." Do you know of any other SDS positions that Mr. Draskovic
16 A. After the multi-party elections in 1990, Mr. Draskovic left the
17 position of the president of the Executive Board of Trnovo. In 1992, he
18 became the president of the SDS party in Trnovo, but I know of -- I do not
19 know of any other function that he discharged except for this one.
20 Q. You also mentioned in paragraph 13 Glisa Simovic. What party did
21 he belong to?
22 A. Glisa Simanic was also a member of the League of Communists before
23 these events occurred, and then he did join the ranks of the SDS and
24 pursued the SDS policy. I do not know whether he was formally a member,
25 but he was the -- later on also there on behalf of MUP in Sarajevo.
1 Q. All right. Now, the last line of paragraph 13 you say: "Glisa
2 Simanic was also a former communist." You've explained that to us. And
3 then you go on to say: "And had a high position in the municipality of
4 Trnovo for many years."
5 Could you tell the Court what high position in the municipality he
7 A. Since he spent a number of years in Trnovo and in communist times,
8 the officials would merely change positions from MUP, then on to the
9 Committee of the League of Communists, so he basically held all the
10 leading, different leading positions in the municipality of Trnovo. Later
11 on, he was in the town MUP and the republican MUP. I don't know which
12 positions he held, but these were mainly leadership positions.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, in paragraphs -- you don't have to look at
14 them, but I'm just summarising. Paragraphs 12 and 15, you discover --
15 sorry, you discuss the establishment of barricades and checkpoints in
16 March. Now, were there any negotiations that you know about that related
17 to the topic of barricades or checkpoints in the municipality?
18 A. The month of March was the month of barricades in Sarajevo and in
19 all the Sarajevo municipalities, including Trnovo. There were
20 checkpoints, barricades, in a number of places. There was a series of
21 negotiations run by the president of municipality, Mr. Mulaosmanovic, with
22 representatives of the Serbian Democratic Party. I wasn't personally
23 involved in the negotiations.
24 Q. Which members of the Serbian Democratic Party negotiated with
25 Mr. Mulaosmanovic about barricades and checkpoints?
1 A. It was Mr. Draskovic, as president of the SDS, for the most part,
2 and Mr. Simanic. But I don't know in which capacity he was there at that
4 MS. LOUKAS: I just want to leave a marker there, Your Honour,
5 just in relation to the question of which members of the party negotiated
6 there. When the witness has already given an answer that: "I wasn't
7 involved in the negotiations." The following question should probably
8 have a proviso to your knowledge in view of the previous answer. But I'm
9 putting a marker there. Obviously the question has been answered now. But
10 I think it's important the questions are confined to the witness's
11 specific, direct knowledge of matters, where they can be, and particularly
12 where he said: "I have no direct involvement." Perhaps a little bit more
13 care there.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We took notice of your marker, Ms. Loukas.
15 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:
16 Q. How do you know that Mr. Draskovic and Mr. Simanic engaged in
17 negotiations with Mr. Mulaosmanovic?
18 A. Mr. Mulaosmanovic's office was right next door to my office in the
19 municipality, so I was there, so I knew about it, and I heard about it
20 from the president of the municipality. It was easy to know about that.
21 Q. And what happened as a result of these negotiations, to your
23 A. After these negotiations -- well, I don't know whether these
24 negotiations contributed to this, but anyway, the barricades were removed
25 throughout Trnovo.
1 Q. Did barricades, checkpoints, subsequently reappear at any stage in
3 A. In the month of April, I could not come to Trnovo. I lived in
4 Hrasnica. So I had to travel through Vojkovici and other neighbourhoods.
5 So I simply couldn't make it to Trnovo. A month later I came to Trnovo
6 via Igman. Of course in the area of Treskavica, I came across a
7 checkpoint, a barricade, a roadblock, where I was asked to show an ID and
8 then they let me pass because they knew what my job was. And then again I
9 saw roadblocks in Trnovo. As for the road between Sarajevo and Trnovo, I
10 knew about that because before, even on the 2nd of April I think, I think
11 it was the 1st or 2nd of April, that was the last time when I was
12 cautioned about this, that we could no longer go to Trnovo that way. So
13 this is March and then April and then the third time I went back to Trnovo
14 was in May.
15 Q. You say you were asked to show -- I'm trying to read your answer
16 to you and ask for clarification. "A month later I came back to Trnovo
17 via Igman. In the area of Treskavica, I came across a barricade,
18 checkpoint, roadblocks, where I was asked to show ID and then they let me
19 pass." Now, who was manning that roadblock or checkpoint or barricade?
20 A. My briefest possible answer would be that these were
21 paramilitaries, members of paramilitary formations, mostly ethnic Serbs.
22 I could not call them a military formation. They wore uniforms that
23 belonged to reservists of the former Yugoslav People's Army and they also
24 wore civilian clothes. So as a person who worked in the system of
25 government, I can say that for me they were paramilitaries.
1 Q. And when you went back to Trnovo town itself in May did you see
2 any barricades in Trnovo town itself?
3 A. Not in the town of Trnovo itself. There weren't any barricades.
4 It was my impression, and that is the way it was, in fact, that by then,
5 Trnovo was already divided along ethnic lines. In the area of the
6 municipality and in the area where there were Bosniaks, there were hardly
7 any Serbs left, and the other way around. So barricades were no longer
8 needed, as Trnovo had already been divided.
9 Q. Now, you mentioned division. Could you look at paragraph 17 of
10 your statement. I think it's the fourth sentence you said: "When I
11 returned to Trnovo, I found all the organisations split into separate
12 organisations." And later on you say Trnovo was divided. Could you
13 explain what you mean by organisations split into separate organisations.
14 A. Of course I can explain. It's very simple. State institutions.
15 There was the municipality that did not function, and the municipality
16 building was closed down. Then the defence department that was within the
17 municipality. It no longer had any ethnic Serbs there. Then the MUP, the
18 security station. It was already divided into two MUPs. There was only
19 one coordinating body that was operating, and that was a peace council
20 established by the citizens. They were debating things and probably
21 trying to keep the peace, if possible.
22 However, there were no other state organisations or social
23 organisations in Trnovo. There was also the health centre. It was an
24 institution of a kind too. But I could not say whether it was divided or
25 not, because it involved professionals, people who did their actual work.
1 Q. You said in your answer that there was only one coordination body
2 that was operating and that was a peace council established by the
3 citizens. Were any of the elected representatives of the SDS or the SDA
4 on that peace council?
5 A. I don't know how it was constituted, how it was established,
6 whether it was political parties that had put up their candidates for it.
7 But if I look at the people who were actually on the council, I could not
8 say whether it was the political parties who established this or not.
9 Knowing Mr. Boro Popovic, Mr. Mulaomerovic, they were not really political
10 party oriented people and they were on this council. I think that these
11 were individuals who were trying to maintain good neighbourly relations,
12 or rather, peace in Trnovo.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, could you please look at paragraph 19 of your
14 statement. You say: "The seven days before the attack I was in Trnovo.
15 There were Serb military formations walking around Trnovo." Can you tell
16 us whether these formation -- whether these formations were armed or not?
17 A. I can. These were formations that wore uniforms of the reserve
18 force of the army of Yugoslavia. They had insignia which were no longer
19 insignia of the Yugoslav army. Some of them were armed too, of course. I
20 slept in Trnovo then, so during those eight days, I was in Trnovo round
21 the clock. During the night, I would often hear gunfire. During the day,
22 one could see people moving about in Trnovo, and one could realise that
23 something was going on. All of it gave the feeling of something military
24 that was going on, and that turned out to be true later on.
25 Q. Now, you mentioned that you saw insignia. Are you able to
1 describe what that insignia was?
2 A. Well, perhaps I should call it the times of folklore in Sarajevo
3 and Trnovo. From nationalist insignia to insignia of the Yugoslav
4 People's Army. I don't know now. I mean, I can't tell anything more
5 specific now, but there was the Serb flag, no longer the flag of the
6 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So this meant that it was mono-ethnic.
7 At checkpoints, I often saw insignia that belonged to the war before that,
8 that is to say, the Sajkaca caps, the cockades, et cetera.
9 Q. Further on in that part of your statement, you say: "Tanks
10 appeared in front of..." what you corrected to read as "Hotel
11 Treskavica." Do you know who those tanks belonged to?
12 A. It's a well-known fact who had the tanks: The Yugoslav People's
13 Army. They left them behind and they made them available to the forces in
14 Trnovo which - I emphasise this once again - were, in my opinion,
15 paramilitaries. They were not within the Yugoslav People's Army. I did
16 my military service in the Yugoslav People's Army myself, and the army
17 never resorted to that. So these were tanks and equipment that remained
18 in the area and that was there in front of the Hotel Treskavica.
19 Q. Thank you. Further on in that paragraph, you say that during that
20 period, and I quote you: "I then saw that Serb people were leaving the
21 town." Can you please tell us when you saw that.
22 A. It was on a Friday, the end of May, when working hours were over.
23 Everybody saw this commotion around town and we saw the Serb population
24 leaving. However, to tell you the truth, this was not a special type of
25 signal to me at the time, because people were moving about all the time
1 anyway. However, later on this proved to be the case on Saturday as well.
2 So by the time the attack on Trnovo took place, practically the entire
3 Serb population had left Trnovo and they were taken to Treskavica and
4 Tosici, and after that Trnovo was shelled.
5 Q. Do you know what the ethnic make-up of the village of Tosici is?
6 A. Mono-ethnic. Only two or three Bosniak houses, I think. So the
7 population were Serb.
8 Q. You then report a conversation you had, and I'll just read that
9 out to you: "A Serb woman who was a secretary at our office said to me as
10 she left that day: Take care of yourself, boss, something very serious is
11 about to happen."
12 Can you tell the Court when she said that to you and what you did
13 in response.
14 A. To be quite sincere, it wasn't really a conversation; it was a
15 single sentence that I happened to recall later and to realise what it
16 actually meant. At any rate, everything that happened in Trnovo during
17 those few days probably led to that, the fact that this sentence was
18 something that I was told, and it probably conveyed a kind of message
19 because on the second or on the third day, Trnovo was actually shelled.
20 Q. Now, the last line of that paragraph is that the town of -- the
21 town was shelled that day, the 31st of May, 1992. Did you actually --
22 were you actually in the town on that day?
23 A. No. No, I was not in town on that day.
24 Q. So how do you know the town was shelled that day?
25 A. Well, I was in the area of municipality of Trnovo. Trnovo is the
1 very centre of the municipality, and everybody knows what's going on in
2 town. My colleagues were in town, and they were there throughout. So on
3 Friday afternoon, I left town. I went to see my family, or rather, one of
4 my children, and the next day the town was attacked. Of course, when I
5 heard about this, I set out for Trnovo straight away and I saw this with
6 my very own eyes, because the shelling continued. It wasn't stopped at
7 that moment.
8 Q. Were you able to see where the shelling was originating from?
9 A. Of course. It wasn't hard to see. Shells were coming from the
10 area of Rogoj and the Hotel Treskavica. So Rogoj would be the right way
11 of putting it. This is a pass between Kalinovik and Trnovo, a mountain
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, in paragraph 20, you state: "After the
14 attack on the 31st of May, the Muslim population was expelled from
15 Trnovo." Why do you say that the population was expelled?
16 A. I don't think there is any other expression in the Bosnian
17 language but to say that you were expelled if somebody made you leave by
19 Q. Then you go on to say in paragraph 20 that your duty was to --
20 immediate duty was to take care of these people. Then you mention the
21 numbers of 1.000 to 1.500 Bosniaks, and then a further thousand people who
22 had been previously displaced from Foca. Can you tell the Court
23 approximately what percentage of those people were women, and children,
24 and elderly people?
25 A. These were primarily families that lived in the town of Trnovo, so
1 there were women and children and elderly people there; adults too, of
2 course. It would be hard for me to give any percentages now, because at
3 that time there were no splits among the population. Everybody had to
4 leave Trnovo under the shells and under the fire. So practically no one
5 stayed behind in Trnovo. Everybody left. I did not go into the
6 percentages even at that time, how many women, how many children, although
7 it is always possible to deduce that figure from the relative figures that
9 Q. Now, the last part of paragraph 20, I'll quote this. You
10 say: "On the first day of the war, five citizens of Trnovo were killed by
11 the shelling and 14 were captured. We do not know what happened to any of
12 those 14 who have never been seen again."
13 Now, how did you come to know about these events?
14 A. I was in the village of Trebecaj for the most part. That is two
15 kilometres away from the centre of Trnovo. So it wasn't hard to hear
16 about all of this from the people who were leaving Trnovo, about who got
17 killed, where shells fell, et cetera. I believe, though, that there are
18 some accurate records as well. Perhaps people who worked for the health
19 services or people who were engaged in these efforts later. I know about
20 these 14 people because there was an employee of the municipality of
21 Trnovo among them, and he lived in the neighbourhood where the Treskavica
22 Hotel was. I know that he was taken away because his wife got out the
23 following day and she told me about it.
24 Q. What was his ethnicity?
25 A. He was a Muslim, a Bosniak.
1 Q. And insofar as you knew or --
2 A. [Indiscernible]
3 Q. Now, insofar as you knew or were told by the refugees, what was
4 the ethnicity of the people that were killed and the five people that were
5 killed and the 14 people that were captured?
6 A. They were Bosniaks, of course. It was the Bosniak population that
7 was leaving Trnovo.
8 Q. What was the name of the employee of the municipality who was
9 among the 14 people?
10 A. Munib Velic was his name. He was a land surveyor.
11 Q. Thank you very much.
12 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: That concludes my examination.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, before I give you an opportunity to
14 cross-examine the witness, I would ask one question to the witness at this
16 When asked why you used the word that Muslims were expelled, you
17 explained that they had to leave by force. Could you explain a little bit
18 more what do you mean by that, how this actually took place. What force
19 was exercised? How precisely that went on.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the force came from artillery
21 weapons. The town was shelled. The unprotected civilian population in
22 Trnovo was shelled, and this went on incessantly. That's what my
23 colleague Mr. Durmo told me when he got out of Trnovo. There was this
24 physical attack against Trnovo. And there was no other way of protecting
25 the population but getting them out to the neighbouring villages. That's
1 what they did. They left during the night. They went from one house to
2 the other, depending on who managed to do what. So it was direct force
3 that was used, coming from artillery weapons.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I do understand that the Serbian population of
5 Trnovo had left already. Did they return at any later stage?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They returned immediately, as
7 soon as the Bosniak population and police got out of Trnovo. I think that
8 there were also direct conflicts with the police. However, there were
9 very few of them, but that is what the people who stayed in Trnovo said.
10 There were no Bosniaks left in Trnovo, and the Serbs returned a few days
11 later. I don't know exactly when this happened, because I was no longer
12 in Trnovo myself.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the Bosniaks could not have returned?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely not.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And for what reason? Could you explain that to us.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because it had already turned into a
17 war, and there were war operations that were going on already. Combat
18 lines were established. So the population left. We're talking about the
19 end of May 1992, when Bosnia-Herzegovina, Trnovo included, had become a
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do understand that what you understand by
22 being expelled is that they first had to flee due to the shelling and
23 were not able later on to return because of the war operations that would
24 not allow them to return. Is that a correct understanding?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that is a correct
1 understanding, but it's not only that they could not return due to war
2 operations, but also because the authorities that were in place in Trnovo
3 did not even try to call them to come back to Trnovo. I'm referring to
4 the Serb authorities.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answer.
6 Ms. Loukas, I'm wondering whether it would not be better to start
7 cross-examination after the break.
8 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. I think that's a good idea. And I
9 can indicate that I won't be that long with this witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would mean that the next witness should be
11 available already this afternoon. Ms. Karagiannakis, is there --
12 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour. This is the only witness
13 that is ready to testify today. His testimony has gone much faster than
14 what we anticipated. The other witness only arrived today -- sorry,
15 yesterday and is only speaking to the attorney in charge of leading his
16 evidence today. And I understand those discussions are still ongoing.
17 And he will not be ready to come on after this witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Karagiannakis, from a point of view of
19 planning, of course, I mean, you're the only one who was aware how much
20 this witness would approximately take. That would be less than one hour
21 and a half, under the 60 per cent rule. It's a bit surprising that the
22 Prosecution did not prepare for the next witness to be present. We have
23 had similar problems of planning and logistics before. If we try to move
24 forward as efficiently as possible, this preferably should not happen.
25 We'll adjourn until five minutes past 4.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into
4 the courtroom.
5 Mr. Vatric, please be seated. You'll now be cross-examined by
6 counsel for the Defence, Ms. Loukas.
7 Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.
8 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:
10 Q. Now, Mr. Vatric, good afternoon.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Now, just prior to the break, His Honour, the Presiding Judge, was
13 asking you some questions in relation to paragraph 20, you'll recall, of
14 your statement.
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the answer.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer. I think it was
17 yes, but ...
18 A. Yes. Yes.
19 MS. LOUKAS:
20 Q. And just going to paragraph 11 of your statement, you indicated
21 there that you had no personal knowledge of the establishment of the SDS
22 Crisis Staff; correct?
23 A. As far as my personal knowledge goes, that relates to the place
24 and date of the establishment of crisis staffs. Later on, when they
25 became active, I referred to the Crisis Staff that operated in Trnovo
1 municipality, to the extent that I heard something from my colleagues.
2 Q. Indeed. And of course, Mr. Vatric, the situation is, in terms of
3 what you've placed in your statement and in the way that you've given your
4 evidence today, you're careful to indicate what you know on the basis of
5 your personal knowledge and what you hear from others; correct?
6 A. Yes. I've done my best to make the distinction.
7 Q. Yes. And of course, you're being, of course, fairly, and
8 importantly, careful not to speculate; correct?
9 A. Absolutely so. I've done my best to recall and say anything that
10 I can be certain of.
11 Q. Now, just getting back to paragraph 20 of your statement. His
12 Honour, the Presiding Judge, asked you about the use of the
13 term "expelled" there in the first sentence, and you've given evidence in
14 relation to that in answer to His Honour's question. So I don't propose
15 to ask you anything further about that particular sentence. Just going
16 down, further down paragraph 20, I think it's the fourth sentence, the
17 sentence that begins: "At the beginning, it was the population who lived
18 in the town who were displaced." Do you see that sentence there?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, of course, you used the term "displaced" in that sentence;
22 A. Yes, that's what it says here.
23 Q. And then in the following sentence, the sentence that
24 begins: "The second part of a population," you use the term "expelled" in
25 that next sentence; correct?
1 A. Yes, that's what is written here.
2 Q. And in the following sentence, that begins: "There were about a
3 further thousand people who had been previously displaced," again you
4 used, twice in that sentence, the term "displaced"; correct?
5 A. Yes. I often use the terms "displaced" and "expelled." And to
6 answer this right away, perhaps not the right term was used for a given
7 category that your question relates to. I was talking about those
8 displaced from Trnovo, because I knew that they were -- or rather,
9 expelled, those expelled from Trnovo, because I know that they were
10 expelled. And when I speak of those who were displaced, I mean the people
11 that I'm not sure of whether they left Trnovo before the shelling or
12 after. And sometimes I really use the terms "displaced" and "expelled"
13 without really thinking about the term that I'm using. But you're free to
14 ask a specific question and I'll try to answer it.
15 Q. So you concede that you have on occasion used the terms "expelled"
16 and "displaced" interchangeably; correct?
17 A. That's what the text reads.
18 Q. Now, just in relation to the next part of the paragraph 20, when
19 you talk about the first day of the war, and you indicate that five
20 citizens were killed. The source of your knowledge there is, I take it,
21 not direct knowledge but what you've heard from others. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And again, similarly, in relation to I think the 14 people you've
24 described as being captured; is that correct?
25 A. I know that 14 people were taken away. I know the man who was in
1 the group. Of course, I wasn't there. I learnt it from others. I learnt
2 it from Mr. and Mrs. -- I learnt it from Mrs. Velic, who was there when
3 her husband was taken away.
4 Q. Now, just in relation to some more general matters in relation to
5 Trnovo. Are you aware that the office of the SDS Municipal Board was next
6 to the office of the SDA Municipal Board? In fact, they were in the same
7 building; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. The offices of the political parties originally used to be
9 in a building next to the municipality building, and each party had one
11 Q. And I think they were basically separated by a partition; is that
13 A. I don't know which material was used, but the offices were
15 Q. They were right next door to each other virtually; correct?
16 A. Yes. They used a common corridor to enter their offices
18 Q. Now, just in relation to Trnovo: You're aware, of course, that
19 both -- there were both Muslim and Serb crisis staffs. Do you agree with
20 that proposition?
21 A. In the beginning, I said that I did not take any direct part in
22 the activities of any political parties, nor was I a member of any body.
23 I was asked about the Serbian Democratic Party. Of course, probably
24 following these events, different political parties responded in their own
25 ways, but I would not be able to say anything substantially about their
1 political activities, apart from what I've said.
2 Q. Now, on another topic: Were you aware in early March of 1992 of
3 barricades being set up by both Serbs and by Muslims?
4 A. I was -- I did not learn this, but I rather saw it with my own
5 eyes as I was going to Trnovo from Hrasnica.
6 Q. And in relation to Danilo Goljanin - I hope you'll forgive my
7 pronunciation - he was not a member of the SDS, was he, to your knowledge?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak into the
10 MS. LOUKAS: It's a little difficult, unfortunately, because the
11 lectern is rather large and positioning the microphone appropriately has
12 become an issue. But I'll move it across.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm confident that you'll manage, Ms. Loukas.
14 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.
15 Q. Were you aware whether or not Danilo Goljanin was a member of the
16 SDS or do you have no knowledge of that matter?
17 A. I have no knowledge of this. I know of the family name Goljanin,
18 but I know nothing of the activities of Danilo Goljanin himself.
19 Q. Now, just in relation to -- are you aware of a gentleman by the
20 name of Edhem Gorinak [phoen]?
21 A. Could you please repeat the name?
22 Q. Edhem Gorinak.
23 A. Edhem Gorinak. He was the chief of the police administration in
25 Q. Were you aware of his being involved in setting up barricades and
1 seizing vehicles, activities of that nature, during March 1992?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Now, just in relation to round about April 1992, somewhere between
4 the 16th and the 19th of April 1992: Were you aware of a group of Muslims
5 attacking a mixed police patrol and killing three policemen, one of which
6 was a Serb and two of whom were Muslims? Were you aware of an event of
7 that nature?
8 A. At the time, I was in Hrasnica. Therefore, I was not in Trnovo.
9 Later on, I naturally heard that an incident had taken place, but I do not
10 know the reasons lying behind it, nor who fired or who was the victim. I
11 only heard about it. But throughout April I was in Hrasnica and not in
13 Q. Now, you've already given evidence about the splitting of the
14 police force between the Serbs and the Muslims. Are you aware of the fact
15 that the weapons actually stayed with the Muslims when the Serb policemen
16 went to the cultural house of Trnovo?
17 A. I don't think the police station was divided along the -- between
18 the Bosniaks and Serbs. It was rather the ethnic Serb members that left
19 the public security station Trnovo and moved to other premises. Now, what
20 they actually took along with them or what they left behind, I am not
21 aware of. So there was no division. It was the ethnic Serbs who
22 abandoned the regular police station in Trnovo.
23 Q. Now, are you aware of whether or not, in late March 1992, Trnovo
24 being cut off from Sarajevo, round about that time?
25 A. I passed along this road. I can't remember clearly, but I think I
1 used the road from Sarajevo through Hrasnica to Trnovo until April, and
2 the entire road to Trnovo was passable. Now, whether it was cut off, I
3 suppose it would be cut off for the regular traffic. If you have some
4 blockades or points blocking it, then they would probably be visible.
5 However, I was able to pass along that road.
6 Q. Do you have any information as to round about when that road was
7 cut off?
8 A. I believe it was in early April, when I was cautioned about the
9 checkpoint in Krupac. I was warned, actually, by members of a
10 paramilitary group there that we would not be able to pass. There was
11 Miralem Ramic with me there, president of the Executive Board, with me in
12 the car. So for me, that's when the road was already cut off. Whether
13 there was anyone else going -- using this road, I know that after the 6th
14 of April, nobody could use the road any more.
15 Q. Are you aware of round about the 31st of May, 1992 Muslims
16 capturing a group of approximately 25 to 28 Serbs in the region of Trnovo
17 and Ljuta?
18 A. No. I wouldn't know. Ljuta belongs to Kalinovik municipality.
19 Q. And are you aware of Serbs fleeing homes around that time as a
20 result of that event? I mean, if you know, yes; if you don't know, no.
21 A. Do you mean Trnovo, the municipality of Trnovo?
22 Q. Yes. Leaving as a result of this incident in relation to some
23 Muslims capturing some Serbs.
24 A. I am not aware of the Serbian population being on the move in
25 Trnovo municipality in March and April, because before May, nothing
1 significant happened in our municipality, not even in May, until the
2 attack on Trnovo itself was there anybody on the move, because both the
3 Serbian and Bosniak population stayed at their homes until the end of May.
4 Q. So you're not aware of Serbs leaving the region of Trnovo and
5 Ljuta as a result of this capture by Muslims of a certain group of Serbs?
6 That's correct, isn't it? You're not aware of that?
7 A. No. There was absolutely nobody leaving the municipality of
8 Trnovo, be it the Serbs or Bosniaks, until the end of May 1992, or perhaps
9 something took place that I was not aware of. But neither ethnicities
10 left the municipality. The first wave of people leaving was following the
11 attack on Trnovo on the 31st of May. And this is also true for the ethnic
12 Serbs who stayed in their homes. It was the population living in the town
13 proper of Trnovo who started leaving the area once they came under attack,
14 and I emphasise once again: Ljuta was not included into the Trnovo
16 Q. Now, on or about the 3rd or 4th of June, 1992, were you aware of
17 Muslim attacks on Serb villages at all?
18 A. This was wartime already. There were military formations there.
19 And I wouldn't know anything specific about either side attacking the
20 other or where it was that the theatre of war came about. It wouldn't
21 really be proper of me to try and answer this question, because I was not
22 informed about any of the formations. I would simply be able to
23 speculate, or, led by you, I wouldn't really know how the armed operations
24 developed. I know that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Territorial
25 Defence organised their units. MUPs had their staffs that were connected
1 to the republic level MUP office. And this was the only thing that I
2 knew. For the rest, it would be merely me conveying to you hearsay.
3 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Vatric. You've very much appropriately
4 declined to speculate.
5 I've only got a couple of more aspects to cover with you before we
6 finish. Are you aware of the time when Trnovo was then, I think round
7 about late July, occupied by the Muslims, by the Bosnia-Herzegovinian
8 army, were you aware during that time of approximately 200 Serb civilians
9 being killed?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they cannot hear counsel
12 A. No, I didn't know about this. I think I returned to Trnovo in
13 August or September, when the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or whichever way
14 they were called, the Territorial Defence, when they were regrouping,
15 they -- then I returned it Trnovo and I did not find any ethnic Serbs
16 there. I found Trnovo that was destroyed. A part of the population
17 returned there, together with the service, but that's as far as I can tell
18 you. I don't know how many civilians were actually injured, killed. I
19 wouldn't be able to give you the figures.
20 MS. LOUKAS:
21 Q. And were you aware of the Serb Orthodox church being torched at
22 that time?
23 A. When I returned to Trnovo, both places of worship, the mosque and
24 the church, were damaged. You could see that the church was not
25 functioning, because there were no ethnic Serbs there. And I did notice
1 the damage on it.
2 MS. LOUKAS: If I might have a moment, Your Honour. My case
3 manager is trying to get my attention.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MS. LOUKAS:
6 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Vatric. No further questions.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Karagiannakis, is there any need to re-examine
9 the witness?
10 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: No, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Sir, I need a clarification from you. You have said that in the
15 month of May the population was actually divided or separated, if I may
16 put it that way, in such a way that the Muslim population left the
17 Serb-populated areas, and vice versa. You came to the conclusion that
18 this was a reason enough for the checkpoints to be removed, that is to
19 say, there were no more checkpoints, barricades, because there was no need
20 for them and that the population had practically separated, that Serbs no
21 longer lived in Muslim areas, and vice versa. Did you -- is this what you
22 actually said?
23 A. No. I did not really mean to say this. What I meant to say was
24 that the population remained in their homes. Their workplaces were
25 actually divided, that is, the companies that were around Treskavica Hotel
1 were no longer in operation, which meant that the population did not
2 commute to these factories. The cafes and the social life in Trnovo was
3 already divided along the ethnic lines. Serbs would go to certain cafes
4 and Muslims to others. That's what I meant. And I did not mean that
5 physically they were displaced, that they relocated. They remained in
6 their homes, whereas their work and other activities that required them to
7 move, this was something that was already ethnically divided, and that's
8 the division I had in mind.
9 Now, as for the barricades in the month of May, they were no
10 longer the same as the checkpoints in April and March. They were simply
11 checkpoints controlling the movement, asking people to identify
13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I will not quote your words, or
14 rather, I will, in English. And you explained this by saying that there
15 was a division along the ethnicities. I think you gave a more detailed
16 explanation. You did not really mean to say that there was a clear
17 division between the populations, that it did not come to the situation
18 that the Serbs who lived in Muslim-populated neighbourhoods, that they had
19 left the areas.
20 A. No, this is not what I wanted to say. Neither ethnicity left the
21 areas where they lived, and Trnovo is a mixed community, where people
22 lived in mixed neighbourhoods.
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So why were there barricades in
24 the first place?
25 A. Probably to control movement during the day.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But who was in charge of the
3 A. I would not know who was in charge of the barricades, but the
4 barricades that were put in place in Trnovo, and when I refer to these
5 barricades, I mean the system that was put in place in order to block
6 people from going to their regular jobs and so on, such a system was
7 actually placed by ethnic Serbs. In my opinion, it was the SDS. After
8 that, barricades became a regular practice. Anyone would place a
9 barricade in one's own street in order to control who it was that was
10 entering the street. That's why I call them barricades, roadblocks, that
11 were there in order to thwart the regular course of everybody's day-to-day
13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] However, you said that a certain
14 point in the month of May, and I quote, [In English]: "Barricades were no
15 longer needed." [Interpretation] If I understood you correctly, there
16 must have been an authority that took the decision to remove the
17 barricades. Are you aware of this or do you have any information in
18 relation to this?
19 A. I could not really point to a certain authority taking this
20 decision, but I know that there was no need for the checkpoints because
21 all the companies and factories that were active ceased working at that
22 point and nobody had to go there anyway.
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you,
24 Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I've got a few questions for you as well.
1 You told us about paragraph 20 of your statement and about the use
2 of the expression "expelled" and "displaced." You also said that you
3 answered in the affirmative when asked whether you used these terms
4 interchangeably. I'd like to go through it - and perhaps you could take it
5 in front of you - in a bit more in detail.
6 In the first line, you used the word "expelled" from Trnovo. I
7 think you explained to us that that was -- that they had to leave as a
8 result of force. Is that a correct understanding?
9 A. Yes, that's what I meant. Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then if we are a few lines further down, it
11 reads: "At the beginning, it was the population who lived in the town who
12 were displaced." Where you used the word "displaced" here, did you refer
13 to displacement as a result of force or not as a result of force?
14 A. Well, perhaps this paragraph is a bit confusing, as far as this
15 distinction between displaced and expelled is concerned. But perhaps I
16 can explain what I mean when I say "displaced" and when I say "expelled."
17 When I say "expelled," I mean those for whom I know for sure that they
18 were dispelled through the use of physical force, and perhaps those who
19 left homes without the use of any kind of direct force, or at least I
20 don't know about this kind of direct force being used. So it is for the
21 latter group that I use the word "displaced." We had this chain reaction
22 in Trnovo, so people from villages that were not directly attacked by
23 these forces nevertheless left their homes. For me, at that moment, they
24 were displaced; they were not expelled, whereas the people from Trnovo
25 were expelled, through the use of force, physical force.
1 Perhaps I was clearer now rather than when this paragraph was
2 recorded. I did not realise that each and every word was that important,
3 but I've tried to clarify it now.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I then understand you well that you say that
5 the population who lived in the town that were displaced, that it may have
6 been under the circumstances around the town but not as a direct result of
7 force exercised upon them? Is that a correct understanding?
8 A. 1.000 to 1.500 inhabitants who had to leave Trnovo on that day and
9 the following day were the population that was expelled. The others --
10 well, relatively speaking. Now, whether it was 900 people or 1.100
11 people, I really don't know exactly. But there were people who
12 temporarily came to Trnovo and were put up there and they were expelled
13 from Trnovo the following day too. So today they were displaced persons.
14 We took care of them. They came from somewhere, but I cannot say whether
15 they came from Foca because they were expelled by force or whether they
16 became displaced persons out of fear. That's the distinction I'm making.
17 So perhaps at first they were displaced and then they became expelled.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So you say you do not know exactly whether any force
19 was used when they left Foca, but once they had temporarily settled in
20 Trnovo, they then left as a result of force? Is that a correct
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So the last time the word "displaced" is used, you
24 intended to say "expelled"?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
2 Then my next question is about crisis staffs. You were asked
3 about Muslim crisis staffs, and you said: Well, I did not know exactly
4 how the different nationalities or ethnicities responded to what happened.
5 At least you have got no knowledge of your own. But just as you told us
6 about what you heard about SDS crisis staffs to be established, could you
7 also tell us what you heard about similar activities from other groups,
8 Bosniaks, as far as crisis staffs are concerned.
9 A. I think that the political parties at that time reacted -- well,
10 each and every one of them in their own way. I wish to note that the SDA
11 also established some bodies that they deemed necessary in order to defend
12 themselves from certain things, and also to create conditions for their
13 own work. However, in the work of the municipal authorities, this was not
14 present. I cannot say for the SDS what their staff was like. I cannot
15 say what the SDA staff was like. But also, I cannot assert that there
16 weren't any such bodies in the SDA. I think that at that time, each and
17 every political party reacted in a similar way to all of this, except that
18 I know that the SDA did not have physical force.
19 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by that last line, no physical
20 force? That they had no weapons or no ...
21 A. At any rate, they did not have the weapons and the force that the
22 other side had and that was manifested at checkpoints.
23 JUDGE ORIE: When you say "they did not have the weapons and the
24 force," what do you mean exactly by "force"?
25 A. I'm measuring the activity of both political parties and I'm
1 trying to make a distinction there. So even though they had some staffs,
2 or crisis staffs, they could not have military formations, those that
3 could directly threaten the population on the other side.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could they establish checkpoints?
5 A. They could, of course, but they could not have armed forces there
6 as the SDS did. The police force, the regular police force of the public
7 security station in Trnovo, remained within the system. So they did their
8 job to that extent.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us that you learned about the
10 establishment of SDS crisis staffs in -- as you said, in Trnovo as well.
11 What did you exactly know about what happened outside Trnovo? Because you
12 said "in Trnovo as well," which suggests that you have some knowledge of
13 what happened elsewhere.
14 A. I think, or rather, facts indicate that Trnovo was one of the last
15 municipalities to be engulfed by the war, out of the ten municipalities
16 that made up the town of Sarajevo. In my opinion, that was one of the
17 most peaceful municipalities for the longest period of time. I knew about
18 other municipalities as well, since we were part of the city of Sarajevo.
19 We often had meetings within the city assembly. The municipality of Pale
20 had already carried out its separation from the city. It was one of the
21 ten municipalities that was no longer part of the city, not because some
22 kind of procedure had been carried through but because they had simply
24 So perhaps I used the word "and" because of the knowledge I had
25 myself and because of what I heard from other people.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Vatric.
2 Is there any need to ask further questions to the witness based on
3 the questions put by the Bench? Ms. Loukas.
4 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, there are, as a result of Your Honour's
6 Further cross-examination by Ms. Loukas:
7 Q. Now, you'll recall, Mr. Vatric, prior to my cross-examining you
8 that His Honour asked you -- His Honour, the Presiding Judge, asked you --
9 when I asked you why you used the word that Muslims were expelled, you
10 explained that they had to leave by force. Could you explain a little bit
11 more what you mean by that, how this actually took place, what force was
12 exercised, how precisely that went on. And your answer was that: "Well,
13 the force came from artillery weapons. The town was shelled." And then
14 you go on to say: "The unprotected civilian population in Trnovo was
15 shelled, and this went on incessantly." And then: "That's why my
16 colleague Mr. Durmo told me when he got out of Trnovo, this was the
17 physical attack against Trnovo and there was no other way of protecting
18 the population but getting them out to the neighbouring villages. That's
19 what they did. They left during the night. They went from one house to
20 the other, depending on who managed to do that. So it was direct force
21 that was used coming from artillery weapons."
22 So just to paraphrase what you gave in relation to that answer as
23 your explanation of expelling and leaving by force, the situation is, what
24 you're saying, is as a result of the shelling that was occurring, people
25 were fleeing; correct?
1 A. Yes. People left.
2 Q. And of course, in relation to the evidence that you've given in
3 relation to the -- through that paragraph 20, 2.500 people, of course, I
4 take it you did not speak directly to all 2.500 people that we're dealing
5 with here; correct?
6 A. Of course I did not speak to all 2.500 people, but I could not
7 give you the exact number of people I spoke to. I did speak to a great
8 many people, though, because I provided accommodation for them from the
9 villages of Trnovo all the way down to Split. So I had ample knowledge
10 from them as to why they had left, and that is a fact.
11 Can I just ask you something else? You read something out to me a
12 few minutes ago and you said something like "taking people out"? I can't
13 remember the exact word you used. But Ekrem Durmo, when he was speaking,
14 there was a particular word that was used.
15 Q. We can just check that on the transcript. We'll just do that now.
16 "And there was no other way of protecting the population but getting them
17 out to the neighbouring villages. That's what they did. They left during
18 the night." That's the bit I quoted to you. That was part of your answer
19 to His Honour the Presiding Judge. Is that the bit you're referring to?
20 A. Yes, yes, yes. That's the part I'm referring to. I'm not sure
21 about this word "taking them out." Not the population. I wasn't
22 referring to the population. I was referring to families. So in order to
23 avoid any confusion there, it referred to families rather than the
24 population. That's when I mentioned Ekrem Durmo.
25 Q. I appreciate that. Now, I think you indicated previously that you
1 couldn't tell me exactly how many of these 2.500 people you actually spoke
2 to. Could you give perhaps an approximation of the number of people you
3 spoke to?
4 A. I don't know what a number would mean, but whichever number I give
5 you is correct. Now, whether I'm going to tell you 100, 200, 300,
6 whatever, but I am a person who took care of all these people. And
7 whenever you meet people like that, you exchange a few words. So I think
8 it would be a thankless thing for me to say 100, 200, 300, but I talked to
9 all these people about what had directly happened to them.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vatric. No further questions.
11 A. Thank you, too.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions.
13 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: No further questions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ms. Karagiannakis.
15 Mr. Vatric, this, then, concludes your testimony in this court.
16 I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and to answer all
17 questions put to you by the parties and by the Bench.
18 Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Vatric out of the
19 courtroom. I wish you a safe trip home again, Mr. Vatric.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I did my
21 best to carry out my obligation.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Chamber still has to deliver a decision in
24 closed session, I would like to ask the parties whether there's anything
25 else to be raised at this very moment. Because otherwise, we'll go into
1 closed session.
2 MS. LOUKAS: Not from the Defence, Your Honour.
3 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Nothing from the Prosecution.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps one additional question to the
5 Prosecution. Do we have already some information about exhibits, what is
6 it, 200 up until 203?
7 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour. The correspondence that was
8 referred to by Defence counsel was directed to Mr. Hannis. Mr. Hannis is
9 not here today. I will check with Mr. Hannis tomorrow and perhaps we can
10 resolve this quickly tomorrow.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's, then, do it tomorrow.
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll first give decision on the exhibits. Madam
15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P322, witness statement dated
16 21 January 1998, and P322.1, B/C/S translation. P323, map of Sarajevo and
17 surrounding municipalities, marked by witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you objected against the language of the
19 statement, especially in view of paragraph 20. Does that objection still
20 stand? We -- as you may have noticed, it was at least at that moment the
21 Chamber thought that it could be admitted, but ...
22 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, indeed.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please use --
24 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry. Yes, Your Honour. Of course, Your Honours
25 made that preliminary indication in relation to admissibility on the basis
1 of further evidence in chief, cross-examination. The area, of course, has
2 been dealt with in evidence in chief, cross-examination, questions from
3 the Chamber, and in those circumstances, it now seems futile to persist,
4 of course, in that particular objection, because it's now been dealt with
5 appropriately through viva voce questioning.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Then Exhibits 322 and 322.1 and
7 323, all proceeded by the letter P, are admitted in evidence.
8 Then I'd like to turn into -- I said closed session, but perhaps,
9 since it's just reading out a decision, that private session would do.
10 Just looking to the parties, especially to you, Mr. Harmon. It's a
11 decision about transcripts.
12 MR. HARMON: Private session is fine.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Private session is fine. We'll then turn into
14 private session.
15 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, tomorrow morning, 9.00, next witness will
11 be available to be examined by the Prosecution?
12 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. I understood it was tomorrow
14 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. Yes. It should be at 2.15 tomorrow
15 afternoon. As far as I understand, Madam Registrar, in Courtroom I? Yes,
16 that will be in Courtroom I.
17 We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning, a quarter past 2.00,
18 Courtroom I.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.06 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day of
21 October 2004, at 2.15 p.m.