Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7180

1 Wednesday, 20 October 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Could I first ask the parties whether further discussions have led

11 to any further agreement on the statement of Witness 144.

12 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we have not had any further

13 discussions on that matter.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Do you intend to have any further discussions or is

15 it --

16 MR. MARGETTS: From our perspective, we had those discussions

17 yesterday in the last break and we disagreed on a fundamental matter and

18 we didn't intend to continue.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the Chamber will give a decision soon. It

20 will an oral decision, I take it, that it will be given after the first

21 break.

22 MS. LOUKAS: So Your Honour is not giving -- Your Honours are not

23 giving a decision now in relation to the objections?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Not right away. You would say that if we finish the

25 cross-examination of the witness, we'd rather need a decision anyhow

Page 7181

1 before we excuse the witness. That's, of course, something to be

2 considered. If you think that for your cross-examination it would be

3 important to have that decision, then we could --

4 MS. LOUKAS: In fact, it is, Your Honour, because there are some

5 matters that I've objected to that if they are part of the evidence --

6 JUDGE ORIE: It's different, yes.

7 MS. LOUKAS: -- I'll have to cross-examine on them, so it will

8 affect my cross-examination.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps then ...

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't think that it will take us any more

12 than ten minutes to deliver that decision, but of course we first wanted

13 to know whether any further agreement between the parties was there. So

14 we'll adjourn for some ten minutes, and perhaps we could use that break

15 that when we restart, that the witness is already in, because that means

16 curtains down and to be pulled up again.

17 We'll adjourn for ten minutes.

18 --- Break taken at 2.25 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 2.49 p.m.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber took a bit more than ten minutes.

22 As far as your objections are concerned, Ms. Loukas, the Chamber

23 would not accept in evidence paragraphs 20 and 21 of the statement. It

24 does, however, admit into evidence paragraphs 22 - 23 was already out -

25 24, and in respect of 24, the Chamber notes that the relevance of that

Page 7182

1 paragraph is mainly that the witness heard similar language in Kotor Varos

2 as he heard from Belgrade.

3 Then the objections up until 46 are further denied, so we admit

4 all those paragraphs in evidence.

5 Then we come to paragraph 60. We do not admit into evidence the

6 last half-sentence of paragraph 60, starting with "but it was a step

7 forward." At the same time, if the Prosecution would like to ask further

8 questions about this issue, then it will have an opportunity to do so.

9 As far as the first part of that sentence is concerned, starting

10 with "the proclamation," the Chamber considers this to reflect the

11 perception of the legal status of that proclamation by the witness. And

12 of course, further questions can be put to the witness in that respect.

13 Paragraph 63. The part starting with "ballot papers" is admitted

14 into evidence, but not the subsequent sentence, starting with the

15 word "this" and ending with the word "discrimination."

16 In respect of paragraphs 66 and 67, the Chamber understands that

17 in these paragraphs the witness puts into a certain context an experience

18 he had himself. And paragraph 67 allows the Chamber to see whether the

19 description of the event that is put in the same context by the witness is

20 described in such a way that it is in accordance with evidence already

21 presented, and to that extent, allows the Chamber to further assess

22 reliability of the written statement. And therefore, 66 and 67 are

23 admitted in evidence.

24 Paragraph 90, the objection is also denied, Ms. Loukas. The

25 Chamber considers paragraph 90 to reflect what kind of information, what

Page 7183

1 information the witness received through the media, which, of course, does

2 not automatically mean that whatever was shown on the media was the truth

3 or was the complete truth or part of the truth, but at least it indicates

4 what information could be received.

5 That's the decision on your objections. Oh, no. We still

6 have 99. 99, your objection is also denied. The Chamber understands,

7 especially the first few lines of paragraph 99, to reflect the perception

8 of the witness of what happened. So if it reads: "The statement by the

9 JNA officers could not go unnoticed and it meant something like," then of

10 course it does not -- admission into evidence does not mean that the

11 Chamber shares the view that this was the meaning but that the Chamber

12 accepts that this was the way the witness perceived that event.

13 I think I dealt with all your objections, Ms. Loukas.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. All the objections have been dealt

15 with.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If this decision would cause the Prosecution to

17 ask further questions about those parts that were not admitted, you have

18 an opportunity to do so.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we will not need to ask any further

20 questions.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then, Ms. Loukas, you may cross-examine

22 the witness.

23 Witness 144, you'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Loukas, who is

24 counsel for the Defence.

25 WITNESS: WITNESS KRAJ 144 [Resumed]

Page 7184

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Prior to my commencing, Your Honour, I might

3 indicate that in light of the ruling on the objections, I may take a

4 little bit longer than an hour. I still propose, as much as possible, to

5 keep it within the hour, but I might take a little bit longer in view of

6 the further matters that I'll have to deal with.


8 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:

9 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. Now, if the witness might be shown the Defence document that has

12 been I think given to the Prosecution and the interpreters and the

13 registrar.

14 Now, Witness, I'd like to --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be assigned a number.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, certainly, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D29.

19 MS. LOUKAS: I might indicate for the benefit of the Court, Your

20 Honour, that this document was provisionally translated by Ms. Cmeric

21 overnight, so the -- there's no actual official translation of the

22 document in question. What I propose to do, in view of the fact that the

23 interpreters do have the relevant document, if the witness might read the

24 relevant portion that we have there onto the record, slowly, and then it

25 can be placed on the record in that fashion and the interpretation can

Page 7185












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Page 7186

1 come through at the same time.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please do it the way you suggest.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you.

4 Q. Now, Witness, you have that document before you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, if you would care to read slowly onto the record what's

7 contained there in B/C/S. That's pages 220. There's a half page there,

8 and half page on 221. And then I'll ask you some questions about that.

9 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour.


11 MR. MARGETTS: We may make a practical suggestion. Ms. Cmeric is

12 more familiar with this document and the court process, and the same

13 objective would be achieved, I think, if she read this into the record.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whoever reads it is, of course, the most

15 important thing is that it's on the record, and perhaps Ms. Cmeric may

16 have a better ability to know whether she is going too slow or too quick

17 for the interpreters. Could you please -- would you mind, Ms. Loukas, to

18 ask Ms. Cmeric --

19 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour. I mean, that's a sensible solution.

20 I thought it would be useful for the witness to actually read it himself,

21 but I think the same purpose is served.

22 JUDGE ORIE: If it's read out, could you also follow it by reading

23 the text, and Ms. Cmeric will read it aloud.

24 Ms. Cmeric.

25 MS. CMERIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7187

1 [Interpretation] On the 7th and 8th of February, 1992, in the

2 village of Mehurici, near Travnik, a session of a military council was

3 held that was later to be called an historical one. At this session, the

4 commanders of the regional staffs and part of the Main Staff of the

5 Patriotic League of Bosnia and Herzegovina met. The aim of this

6 counselling was to harmonise plans by regions and the handing out of tasks

7 for the following period of time.

8 The preparation of this meeting began in late 1991, when I sent

9 instructions to all the staffs in the fields, tasks for the RVS. This was

10 a document that, among other things, paved the way for our local purpose

11 industry. When we met, I presented the military and political situation

12 at the meeting, and I presented an evaluation of our future strategy.

13 The foundations of my presentation were agreed to and adopted at

14 the meeting and put forward briefly in the first two items or paragraphs

15 of the most important PL document. The directives for the defence of the

16 sovereignty of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the presentation

17 and reports of commanders, an immediate exchange of opinions and

18 information, supplemented this document that was completed on the 25th of

19 February in Sarajevo.

20 As the document was being prepared and produced, as well as at the

21 meeting in Mehurici itself, Rifat Bilajac and Zicro Suljevic assisted me

22 as advisors. However, this directive is my own work. Copies were made of

23 the handwritten document, and it was only typed up later and forwarded to

24 the commanders of regional staffs. Tasks for the RVS:

25 Draw up a plan for municipalities and regions with the following

Page 7188

1 features: 1: Disposition of SDS units, their strengths and composition,

2 disposition of JNA units, their strength and composition. Disposition of

3 storage facilities for weapons and ammunition, mark on the map the ethnic

4 structure by villages, local communes, urban and suburban settlements, in

5 parentheses, Muslim and Croat villages - full green circle. Next to the

6 Croatian villages place the letter H. Serbian villages - blue circle.

7 Mark on the map possible operational modalities for SDS and JNA units and

8 mark this with thin broken lines.

9 2: Disposition of our units, their strength and composition -

10 potential in the brackets or planned modalities for operations to take

11 place. If necessary, the way in which barracks are to be blocked, how to

12 attack storage facilities for the taking of weapons or merely for blocking

13 them. Mark the positions or locations of these planned facilities for

14 carrying out acts of sabotage, accurately mark the places or regions for

15 municipal logistics bases and regional logistics bases. Plan the areas,

16 villages, and local communes from which the Muslim population will be

17 moved out. Plan the evacuation route, who is to provide security, a place

18 where the population will be received and accommodated. Plan the way in

19 which to secure the federal and republican commodity reserves.

20 3: Produce this plan on a map and the ratio will be 1:50.000.

21 Use the symbols from the written instructions for the production of maps,

22 and use colours as stipulated in item 1.

23 4: For the meeting of coordinators and commanders of the RVS,

24 prepare a presentation between 10 and 15 minutes long during which the

25 plan will be presented, problems put forward, and proposals made for

Page 7189

1 solutions, a request of the Main Staff of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 5: Harmonise plans for regions and produce a defence plan for

3 Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Muslim population. This will be held

4 immediately after the new year. A date will be set at a later stage.

5 6: In this presentation, special attention must be given to

6 special purpose military industry, the kind of production, and explain our

7 positions and our plan.

8 7: Review the possibilities of small industry for the production

9 of formation and auxiliary equipment: Bombs, or rather, shells, mines,

10 et cetera, with corresponding documentation.

11 8: The possibilities of storing and keeping large amounts of

12 weapons and MES.

13 [In English] That's the end of the document, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Cmeric.

15 Ms. Loukas.


17 Q. Now, Witness, just for your information, that comes from the

18 book "Cunning Strategy" by Mr. Sefer Halilovic. Have you read that book?

19 A. No.

20 Q. The activities that are described in the pages that were read out

21 by Ms. Cmeric on pages 220 and 221, were you aware of any of those

22 planning activities?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So in relation to these aspects of military planning in February

25 1992, you would tell the Court that you had no awareness of this

Page 7190

1 occurring; correct?

2 A. I had no awareness of it.

3 Q. Now, in relation to the time of the referendum round about March

4 of 1992, the referendum in relation to the independence of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that created quite some political division, did it

6 not, in your local community?

7 A. You mean in my town or in my local commune?

8 Q. In your local commune and in your municipality generally.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And were you aware of a gathering in about April 1992, a gathering

11 in Novi Travnik which was presided over by Franjo Boras, that Croats were

12 discussing with the assistance of Muslims making Kotor Varos an integral

13 part of the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna?

14 A. I don't know about that.

15 Q. Okay. Were you aware in May 1992 that the three national parties

16 in your local municipality, in an attempt to prevent inter-ethnic clashes,

17 there had been a meeting organised by the Municipal Assembly and the Croat

18 representative, a Mr. Anto Mandic, did not go there, and rather, held a

19 separate meeting with Muslims in the local area, in the handball stadium?

20 Are you aware of that?

21 A. I'm aware of the fact that a public meeting was held at the

22 stadium with members of all the three leading parties in Kotor Varos

23 present: The SDS, the SDA, as well as the HDZ.

24 Q. Now, are you aware of the killing of Boro Popovic in June of 1992,

25 a Serb?

Page 7191












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Page 7192

1 A. No.

2 Q. Are you aware of, in June 1992, the Crisis Staff of the

3 Kotor Varos municipality, in an attempt to calm inter-ethnic tensions,

4 establishing contact with all the religious leaders of the three

5 religions?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Are you aware of telephone lines going down in the local area in

8 about June 1992, so that telephone contact was lost?

9 A. Yes. The lines were cut.

10 Q. Were you aware in June of 1992 of clashes between Serbs, on the

11 one side, and Croats and Muslims on the other, in villages of Plitska,

12 Bilice, Cirkino Brdo, Cirkici, Hanifici, and Vecici?

13 A. Your Honours, can we please have the names of these villages

14 pronounced properly, because there seem to have been many mistakes made.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could invite Ms. Cmeric to read

16 them.

17 MS. LOUKAS: I think that's a very good idea, Your Honour. I

18 think that somehow Ms. Cmeric's pronunciation will be a lot more

19 accomplished than mine.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have the same problem, all, Witness 144,

21 that we are not native B/C/S speakers.

22 MS. CMERIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. The name of the

23 villages are Plitska, Bilice -- I apologise, then. It must be then --

24 misprint then.

25 Cirkino Brdo, Cirkici, Hanifici, and Vecici.

Page 7193

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was aware of what I could see for

2 myself from my own house. I had a view of Bilice, and an elevation where

3 Hanifici is situated. I could see vaguely that houses were being set

4 alight during the night, during the shelling as well as during the day.

5 As for these others, I was not aware of those.


7 Q. Yes. Thank you, Witness. Now, were you aware, round about the

8 24th or 25th of June, 1992, Croat and Muslim representatives calling on --

9 Croat and Muslim representatives Stipe Maric Sprzo and Muhamed

10 Sadikovic - I hope that pronunciation is adequate - calling on soldiers

11 for negotiations and then organising an ambush in which soldiers were

12 killed and wounded, including Captain Slobodan Zupljanin?

13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour --

14 A. I'm not aware of that.

15 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if we could just be careful to ensure

16 that the microphones are turned off prior to the witness answering the

17 question.


19 MS. LOUKAS: I would indicate that Ms. Cmeric is ably dealing with

20 the microphone at every available opportunity.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're referring to the -- in your question

22 you're referring to the part of the video shown yesterday; is that ...

23 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. There seems to be -- that's the

24 aspect that appears to be dealt with there.

25 Q. Now, you've referred in your statement to the statement of

Page 7194

1 Mr. Radovan Karadzic in parliament. Do you recall that part of your

2 statement?

3 A. Yes. I recall that this was broadcast on TV.

4 Q. And did you watch it on TV?

5 A. Yes. All the broadcasts of those meetings were of a public nature

6 and usually they were directly broadcast.

7 Q. So you listened to the entire speech?

8 A. For the most part, yes.

9 Q. And you're aware, of course, that when making that statement that

10 you've referred to in your statement, it was immediately followed

11 by "please, I know those are serious words. Serious situations call for

12 serious words. How will you prevent that everybody start killing

13 everybody in Bosnia and Herzegovina?" You recall that bit as well, I take

14 it.

15 A. In part.

16 Q. That he was referring to everybody killing everybody?

17 A. Not quite like that.

18 Q. Okay. Now, just in relation to this question of what Mr. Karadzic

19 was saying in parliament, you were, of course, aware of the statements

20 that were being made by Mr. Izetbegovic?

21 A. Which ones do you mean?

22 Q. Well, for example, February 27, 1991: "I would sacrifice peace

23 for a sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina, but for that peace in

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina I would not sacrifice sovereignty." You recall that

25 statement?

Page 7195

1 A. I do.

2 Q. And statements of that nature, of course, did cause some concern

3 in your local community, did they not?

4 A. In part.

5 Q. And of course you are aware that Mr. Izetbegovic stated two years

6 before the war broke out that the Muslims were -- did not yet comprise a

7 big enough majority to make Bosnia a Muslim state? Are you aware of that

8 statement?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Were you aware of local Serbs in your community being concerned

11 about being a Serb minority within an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. That's what they pointed out, yes.

13 Q. Were people in your local community disturbed about the fact that

14 Mr. Izetbegovic, on a visit to Turkey in July 1991, asked to join the

15 organisation of Islamic countries?

16 A. I don't remember that.

17 Q. In terms of events in 1993, Witness, were you aware that Serbs

18 from Kotor Varos accepted Croats who in 1993 had been expelled from

19 Travnik by Muslims?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Are you aware of Croats leaving -- significant numbers of Croats

22 leaving Kotor Varos on their own request?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, just in relation to further internal matters in Kotor Varos:

25 Was there in the local politics in terms of the coalition between the HDZ

Page 7196

1 and the SDA felt by the Serbs that the events there were becoming - to

2 your knowledge, of course - politically polarised?

3 A. There was no coalition.

4 Q. So you tell the Trial Chamber there was no coalition between the

5 Muslims and the Croats in your local area; is that correct?

6 A. That's right. Not in the political sense.

7 Q. In terms of the set-up of the Executive Board in your local area,

8 there were I think three Serbs and three non-Serbs; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And was it the case that SDA and HDZ delegates initiated certain

11 questions during the Assembly sessions without going through the Executive

12 Board?

13 A. I don't remember that.

14 Q. Were you aware of Muslims and Croats in your local area arming

15 themselves?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you aware of paramilitary formations in your local area?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you aware of a number of people, a significant number of

20 people, prior to the outbreak of hostilities, people from all three

21 backgrounds - Serb, Croat, and Muslim - wanting to leave?

22 A. No.

23 Q. So you're not aware of people wanting to leave in the period

24 April, May, June; is that what you're telling the Court?

25 A. I know that at one of the meetings of the council for national

Page 7197












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Page 7198

1 defence, the president of the municipality, who was a Croat by ethnicity,

2 came up with a proposal for Croats to leave Kotor Varos and take their

3 property with them in exchange for which they would be compensated.

4 Following that proposal, the SDS president, Nedjeljko Djekanovic, stated

5 in no uncertain terms as follows: You will not be leaving whenever you

6 see fit, but rather, you will be leaving when we decide, and how we

7 decide.

8 Q. Are you aware of a meeting with the archbishop of Banja Luka,

9 Bishop Komarica, and the religious Muslim head from Banja Luka, meeting in

10 the Kotor Varos municipality, seeking to find some peaceful outcome? Are

11 you aware of a meeting of that nature around June 1992?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So you're not aware that there was some discussion about perhaps

14 the possibility of temporarily moving people out so that they could

15 sustain themselves during the period of the conflict? You're not aware of

16 anything of that nature?

17 A. No

18 Q. Are you aware of Muslim and Croat paramilitary formations in the

19 directions of Bilice and Kotor? I hope that pronunciation leads you to

20 understand what villages I'm talking about.

21 A. I was not aware of that. I have no idea about that, in fact.

22 Q. Yes.

23 MS. LOUKAS: No further questions, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Loukas.

25 Mr. Margetts, has the cross-examination raised any wish to --

Page 7199

1 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour, we have no questions.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Judges will have a few questions. First

3 Judge Canivell.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE CANIVELL: Witness, please, can you tell us during these

6 years 1991, 1992, 1993 you had been speaking about, you had -- you were

7 following what was happening in your town and your village and in the

8 capital town nearby. But at the same time, how did you follow the events

9 in the rest of the country? Through papers, through TV? You did it

10 assiduously, every day? Tell us, please.

11 A. In the course of 1991 and 1992, we received information over the

12 media, the television, and the press. I did not, however, watch TV every

13 day. However, there was a free flow of information up until 1992, spring

14 of 1992, when two relays were blocked in Vlasic and Kozara and when we in

15 Kotor Varos were able to cover -- to watch only the programmes aired from

16 Banja Luka and Belgrade. The radio signals which were, however, very

17 poor, did transmit the information from Sarajevo. In part, some of the

18 residents were able to watch TV Zagreb, depending on the range of their

19 antennas. The rest of the information could be gathered from the press,

20 which was mostly from Banja Luka. In 1991, it was Banjalucki Glas. In

21 1992, it was Srpski Glas. It was renamed. And in part, one could read

22 the press from Belgrade. But, however, in a very restrictive manner from

23 Sarajevo as well. This was in 1992.

24 JUDGE CANIVELL: You said that until the spring of 1992, there was

25 still a free flow of information. What did you mean by that? When you

Page 7200

1 tell us that you had the information coming from different points -

2 Banja Luka, Sarajevo, or even Zagreb - could you precise the sources of

3 this information, in the sense that not the placing from which they were

4 sent; rather, what we would like to know is: I mean the source of the

5 information in the sense of it was the Serbian information, it was Serbian

6 free information, it was Serbian influenced information, it was Croat

7 information, it was Muslim or Bosniak information. Can you precise a

8 little bit about that?

9 A. The information from Sarajevo originated from the republican TV

10 that was controlled by all the three nationalities in 1991. The

11 information from Belgrade originated from the Serbian national TV, and the

12 same was true for Zagreb, that broadcast the information from the Croatian

13 television. There were no private television channels in 1991.

14 In 1992, having used the relay facilities that we had, we also

15 received information broadcast by the Banja Luka TV. I cannot speak for

16 1993 because I spent the year in detention.

17 JUDGE CANIVELL: This Banja Luka TV could be considered as a

18 Muslim or, rather, Serbian source of information?

19 A. It could be considered as the Serbian source of information.

20 JUDGE CANIVELL: Okay. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 [Interpretation] Witness, I would kindly ask you to clarify

24 several things first. You've said, as far as your experience in detention

25 is concerned, that you established - and this is what you said in

Page 7201

1 English - that there were two factions: There were the Special Forces

2 and the Serbian police force, or the Serbian guards. You've said that the

3 Serbian police was not cruel, that is, it did not mistreat the detainees,

4 but that those who were responsible for that were members of the Special

5 Forces. Is this what you said, Witness?

6 A. In part, that is true. We were mostly tortured by members of the

7 Special Forces, by the people wearing camouflage uniforms, under the

8 command of Zdravko Samardzija, and later on, Slobodan Dubocanin. The

9 Serbian police force wore blue uniforms. While we were in detention, they

10 were the guards there. Some of them, like, for instance, Dragan Krejic,

11 who was commander of the camp for a while, used to beat detainees on a

12 daily basis. This is also true for Radenko Keverovic. They, as well as

13 many other guards in the camp, opened the gates to members of the Special

14 Forces and other reserve-force military men to enter the camp and beat the

15 detainees.

16 I will only recount one case here. It happened in August 1992, at

17 the point when I was supposed to be exchanged and returned again to the

18 prison in the school. One evening, members of the Special Forces came in

19 to beat us. I was among the ones who were beaten. A guard at the prison,

20 Popovic, also known as Pop, and known to everyone in Kotor Varos as the

21 waiter Pop, went to the public security station and brought along the

22 inspector Ljubo Petrusic, and following a very long discussion between

23 Petrusic and members of the Special Forces, one could see that they did

24 not have a joint command. Members of the Special Forces went out, only to

25 return an hour later and beat us just as they did earlier on.

Page 7202

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Therefore, I can conclude the

2 following: When you say they were mostly beaten by members of the Special

3 Forces, you wish to say that it was more the members of the Special Forces

4 who did that rather than the guards.

5 A. For the most part, this was done by members of the Special Forces,

6 but this was done in the presence of the Serbian police officers in blue

7 uniforms.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Could you establish the

9 membership of these Special Forces, who they belonged to?

10 A. These Special Forces came from Banja Luka, according to what

11 Zdravko Samardzija said, that they came from the security services centre

12 in Banja Luka. I remember very clearly the moment I first encountered

13 Zdravko Samardzija, when I got the pass from him and when I told him that

14 I was a member of the SDA party. He, in turn, told me that this was not

15 an illegal matter, that they had searched our premises, that is, the

16 premises of the SDA party, and that they hadn't found anything that will

17 be in contravention to the Serbian law, unlike the case in Doboj, where

18 they found the, as they called it, the Pastete. When I asked him what it

19 was, he told me it was a type of a land-mine. And I had never heard of

20 that term before, because I wasn't in the army.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] These land-mines were found

22 where?

23 A. In Doboj.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Where?

25 A. In the premises of the SDA party. That is what he said.

Page 7203












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13 French transcripts correspond













Page 7204

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] In the premises of the SDA party?

2 A. Yes. In Doboj. This is another town which is --

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Fine. I will now change the

4 topic. You have said there's one man, who was a Croat by ethnicity, who

5 was a member of the Assembly, Municipal Assembly, that he had suggested

6 that the Croats leave the area in exchange for a compensation for their

7 property. And then you added that the SDS president, a man by the name of

8 Djekanovic, was against that, was opposed to that. When did this take

9 place, and could the SDS president really do this? Could he have

10 prevented this suggestion from being put into place, and how was it solved

11 in the end?

12 A. It is true that the president of the Assembly, Anto Mandic, came

13 forth with this proposal, because it happened at the end of May in 1992,

14 at the meeting of the council for national defence, when he said the

15 following, "The Croats will not wage any wars in Kotor Varos. Allow us to

16 leave, to take our belongings, to save our lives, in exchange for which

17 you will give us compensation for our property." Djekanovic's reaction

18 was not a calm one. It was a reaction of revolt, because he said, "It is

19 not up to you to decide when you will leave. You will leave when we say

20 so and if we say so, and the way we say."

21 We, however, did not understand fully the meaning of this

22 statement.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And when he said, "This is up to

24 us, we are to decide about this," what did he mean by this? Who was

25 the "we"?

Page 7205

1 A. He meant to say that it was up to the SDS to decide about it. A

2 similar statement at the same meeting was given by Savo Tepic, who was the

3 chief of the public security station in Kotor Varos, who said, "Whether

4 Kotor Varos will be part of Republika Srpska is not the point. The point

5 is: Will it be done by force or through peaceful means."

6 The meeting ended in a way that it was concluded that a public

7 meeting should be held in Kotor Varos, in a cinema theatre. But since the

8 interest was quite overwhelming, it was held at a stadium.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. You were talking about late

10 May 1992?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And in fact, this meeting was

13 held at a stadium; right?

14 A. The meeting was held in early June, yes, at the stadium.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And what was the conclusion

16 reached there?

17 A. The meeting of the council for national defence decided that the

18 SDS should invite their representatives from Banja Luka in order for them

19 to address the citizens of all ethnic backgrounds and explain to them what

20 kind of an advantage would it be for Kotor Varos in joining the Serbian

21 Autonomous District of Banja Luka, that is, the Serbian Republic. The SDS

22 leaders agreed with the idea of them inviting their representatives from

23 Banja Luka; however, on that day when the meeting was scheduled, nobody

24 showed up from Banja Luka. Thus, the presidents of all the parties - the

25 SDS, the SDA, and the HDZ - addressed those present and presented the

Page 7206

1 situation in Kotor Varos and put forth suggestions. They were suggesting

2 a peaceful solution. They suggested that peace should be ensured in

3 Kotor Varos - this was suggested by the SDA - and that we should work for

4 the end of the conflicts in Bosnia and Herzegovina and to try and reach a

5 peaceful solution as to which body Kotor Varos should belong to.

6 Djekanovic, the SDS president, said that Kotor Varos, in territorial

7 terms, did belong to Banja Luka and that it ought to be part of the

8 Banja Luka region. This was met with general opposition. He was -- then

9 he just left the meeting.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But did it not seem to you

11 that the SDS members from the local area were not in contact? Did it not

12 seem to you that they did not have any contacts with their superiors in

13 Banja Luka? Because it happened, for instance, that they would say

14 something, and then those people in Banja Luka would disagree with it.

15 Were there any contacts between them?

16 A. There were communication contacts between them, because at the

17 meeting of the council for national defence, they did agree to the

18 suggestion that they invite their colleagues from Banja Luka. However, at

19 the public meeting, they said that, due to previous commitments, these

20 certain persons were unable to come.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you for this last answer.

22 You've answered the question concerning the neighbouring village, the one

23 that you lived in, and you said that you yourself came to the conclusion

24 that houses were being set alight during the night, while the villages

25 were being shelled. Did I understand you correctly at the time, or ...

Page 7207

1 A. Yes. I did see that the neighbouring villages that I could see

2 from my house, that they were being shelled and that there was fighting

3 going on in the area, and that houses were being set alight, especially

4 during the night, because you could clearly see the fire in the dark.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] We, therefore, came to the

6 conclusion as to why they were set alight, and you even said that they

7 were being torched during the day.

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Does this mean that they were set

10 alight both during the day and during the night? Did this surprise you at

11 all? Did this take place all the time?

12 A. Yes. The houses were set alight during the day and during the

13 night, whenever there were clashes on.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I understand that these villages

15 were mostly populated by Bosniaks.

16 A. In the village of Bilice, there were Croats. In Hanifici, there

17 were Muslims.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 A. I apologise. I meant to say in Hrvacani.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But there were no Serbs there?

21 A. No. In the suburban areas, in the outlying areas, there were

22 Serbs, meaning in the outlying areas surrounding Kotor Varos. Around

23 Hrvacani, there were several smaller Serb-populated villages, but there

24 were no Serbs in Hrvacani.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You said that houses that came

Page 7208

1 under attack were being torched during the night. It seems to me that if

2 the houses were lit, that this light could serve as a guide to those who

3 were attacking the village and make their job easier?

4 A. Perhaps so.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you,

6 Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one or two questions to you, but I first

8 have to inquire whether we'd still have time on the tape. Because

9 otherwise I'd like to finish before the next break. Yes, we still have a

10 couple of minutes.

11 Witness 144, yesterday some questions were put to you in relation

12 to two documents, one being conclusion of the resettlement of Rasim

13 Mehmedovic to Zagreb - you testified you knew him - and the other one was

14 a document in which someone declared that he was voluntarily leaving

15 Kotor Varos municipality for the following reasons, and then stated why he

16 left.

17 You were asked about conditions imposed in order to leave the

18 municipality, and you said you heard about one condition imposed to be

19 voluntarily giving up your property. And we saw on one of these documents

20 that a burned house was given up by that person. I have some difficulties

21 in reconciling conditions imposed and voluntarily giving up. Could you

22 explain exactly what the margin of free will was for those who wanted to

23 leave.

24 A. I think that at that point, they had no freedom of choice. They

25 could either stay in Kotor Varos or, if they decided to leave, they had to

Page 7209

1 leave their property to the municipality of Kotor Varos. If, for

2 instance, they said that they wanted to leave Kotor Varos, then, if the

3 authorities of Kotor Varos found that they did something that was contrary

4 to the law, they would then be detained.

5 JUDGE ORIE: What kind of acts contrary to the law would be taken

6 into consideration for detaining those people?

7 A. While I was in prison, a number of detainees were brought in who

8 had registered as wishing to leave Kotor Varos with their families. They

9 would be brought to the prison, whereas the women and children were

10 allowed to leave. From conversations with these people, I learnt that

11 they were being accused of having been opposed to the Serbian authority,

12 that is, of not having been loyal to the Serbian authorities.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. I've got one more

14 question about the relation between the Special Forces and, as I could

15 say, the regular police forces. When you were in detention, did the

16 regular police forces explain to you why you were detained and what the

17 legal basis for your detention was?

18 A. No. They never explained this to us, not a single time.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Was it ever asked to them? Did you ever ask: Why do

20 you keep us in detention?

21 A. We asked the guards, the guards that we knew from before, the

22 guards that we had once worked with or had been friends with. Their

23 answer, however, was, "We received orders to keep you here. We do not

24 know the reason behind this."

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then my last question is: When regular police forces

Page 7210

1 were present when Special Forces ill-treated detainees, did they ever

2 protest?

3 A. No. They never stood up against that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answers, Witness 144.

5 Is there any need for further questions?

6 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we have one question that arises from

7 an answer provided to a question from His Honour Judge El Mahdi.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, I'm looking at the clock.

9 Would we still have for one question and answer? Ms. Loukas, would you

10 have any further questions?

11 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour. I have no further questions.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's try to finish before we are running out of

13 tape.

14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, the only difficulty is this: I have a

15 document I'd like to present to the witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Do it, then, as quickly as possible.

17 MR. MARGETTS: If it could be distributed.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. This might be a signal that ...

19 Further examination by Mr. Margetts.

20 Q. Witness 144, you have before you a decision on the formation of

21 the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina and it's dated 5 May

22 1992. Do you recognise the name marked at number 14 of that decision?

23 A. Slobodan Dubocanin. I recognise that name. He was one of the

24 special unit commanders in Kotor Varos.

25 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I just note that I hadn't ask for an

Page 7211

1 exhibit number for this document.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar will give it to you.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P348.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Any further questions?

5 Yes.


7 Q. Yes. Witness, you were asked by His Honour Judge El Mahdi whether

8 you could establish the membership of the Special Forces and who they

9 belonged to, and your answer was that these Special Forces came from

10 Banja Luka. According to what Zdravko Samardzija said, that they came

11 from the security services centre in Banja Luka. Is the membership of the

12 commander Slobodan Dubocanin, of the ARK Crisis Staff, consistent with

13 your observations as to whom these Special Forces belonged to?

14 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I'd object to that question. That's --

15 the witness has given his evidence. He's been, Your Honour,

16 cross-examined, he's been asked questions by the Judge. In essence,

17 Mr. Margetts is asking a question that is actually a determination to be

18 made by Your Honours in terms of assessing the evidence. And

19 particularly, to ask it in that leading form, additionally, Your Honour,

20 that question is wholly objectionable.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, from the evidence until now, we see the

22 position of Mr. Dubocanin and in the war staff, and we heard extensive

23 testimony on his role. Wouldn't that be sufficient? I mean,

24 consistency ...

25 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm satisfied that there's no

Page 7212

1 need for any further questions.

2 JUDGE ORIE: So that question is then withdrawn.

3 Mr. Margetts, I take it that P348, that the original in B/C/S,

4 only the top part, is tendered into evidence, since only that part is

5 provided in translation.

6 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. That's correct. This is just

7 part of a gazette, and accordingly this is the page from the gazette.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So only the upper part, up to where it reads in

9 III.

10 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Witness 144, this concludes your evidence.

12 We'll deal with the documents at a later stage, Mr. Margetts. Yes.

13 MR. MARGETTS: Just one matter, Your Honour. The witness has not

14 been present when the summary of his evidence is read out.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No. But the summary of his evidence is something

16 which is mainly for the public and not primarily for the witness.


18 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, it's to inform the public about the written

19 statement of the witness of which he said that he has reviewed it. So

20 he's aware of it, so we could -- I think we could excuse the witness and

21 then read out the remaining part. But still, of course, we have to see

22 whether there's any agreement finally on what the summary should be.

23 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. I think we've reached agreement

24 on that. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. I'm also a bit concerned about the time

Page 7213

1 and running out of tape.

2 Witness 144, you have come a far way to The Hague. You have

3 answered all the questions put to you by Prosecution, by Defence, and by

4 the Bench. I'd like to thank you very much for coming, and I wish you a

5 safe trip home again.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until half past 4.00. And once we

9 start again, we first deal with the exhibits and with the summary. And,

10 Mr. Harmon, I don't know when you had scheduled Mr. Hannis to appear for

11 P202, 203, but ...

12 MR. HARMON: He'll be here when we recommence.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Then we'll deal with these technicalities

14 once we resume, and then I take it the Prosecution is ready to call its

15 next witness.

16 We'll adjourn until 4.30.

17 --- Recess taken at 4.07 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 4.33 p.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Margetts, I take it that we'll receive the

20 newly redacted version of the statement soon, in accordance with the

21 decision given --

22 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- by the Chamber. I do also understand that the

24 parties have agreed on reading out the 89(F) summary.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. We have agreed.

Page 7214

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Margetts, the Chamber wants to express this

2 is not against you or against Ms. Loukas, that, as a rule, we'll read out

3 those statements in the presence of the witness, because that's

4 preferable. It was only under the special circumstances that, well, the

5 witness concluded his testimony and that we would have -- we would have

6 had to ask him to wait for another half an hour for the statement to be

7 read. So therefore, as an exception, we'll now read it in the absence of

8 the witness. Please proceed.

9 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. And the basis for my question

10 was in fact just so the witness was aware of the extent of the evidence

11 that he'd given and that it had come to the Court's attention.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, the witness could be -- no. We have

13 no English -- we have no B/C/S summaries or -- perhaps you could -- I

14 think that would be proper, if you would -- no, we have no B/C/S.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness would be still around, of course, we

17 could invite him to, but he may have left.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness would be still around and if he would

20 prefer to be present, I even would pull the curtains down for that reason,

21 because we really prefer to do that, and perhaps I decided too quickly

22 that we would have a break first.

23 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't see a need for

24 that because he's accepted your ruling as it was and the reasons for it,

25 and I have advised him of the content of his statement, that I wished to

Page 7215

1 raise it before you [indiscernible] the possibility.

2 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the case, I think we could proceed. Yes,

3 please proceed.

4 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 This is the 89(F) summary of Witness 144.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 From late 1990 and throughout 1991, various events in Kotor Varos

9 resulted in disagreements between the SDS and the HDZ and SDA, setting the

10 JNA and the local Serbs against the SDA and the HDZ, including these

11 events: The removal of Territorial Defence weapons by the JNA, the

12 passage of Serbian military convoys through the area, the building of a

13 new military training ground near Maslovare, the mobilisation after the

14 start of the war in Croatia, JNA's seizure of mobilisation lists and

15 records from the local secretariat for national defence, the Serbs'

16 efforts to join Kotor Varos to the Serb-proclaimed Serbian Autonomous

17 Region of Krajina.

18 In discussions preceding the removal of weapons, representatives

19 of the HDZ and SDA were threatened by a JNA colonel and by the SDS

20 representatives Slobodan Juric. In October 1991, during the course of

21 discussions in the Municipal Assembly, Nedjeljko Djekanovic, the president

22 of the SDS, threatened the witness, stating, "You have something against

23 the Serbian people. Watch out. Something may happen to you."

24 In the spring of 1991, the witness travelled to Sarajevo with

25 representatives of the SDS, HDZ, and SDA from Kotor Varos to discuss an

Page 7216

1 SDS demand for over 50 per cent of the authority in the Executive Council

2 even though they did not have the majority of seats. In Sarajevo he met

3 with Velibor Ostojic, subsequently the minister for information in the

4 Republika Srpska, and Radovan Karadzic. Ostojic threatened the Muslim and

5 Croat representatives with the use of force. Later, Karadzic joined the

6 meeting, and the SDA candidates felt compelled to accept the solution

7 presented by the SDS in order to maintain the work of the municipal bodies

8 in Kotor Varos.

9 Effectively, there were two political blocks in Kotor Varos: The

10 SDS Serbian block, supporting Slobodan Milosevic's politics, promoting a

11 Serb-dominated Yugoslavia, and the block of the HDZ and SDA opposed to it.

12 From early April 1992, the Serbs declared a new Serbian police

13 force and insisted that the police make declarations of loyalty to the new

14 Serb force. The head of the CSB in Banja Luka, Stojan Zupljanin, attended

15 a meeting in Kotor Varos and was informed that no non-Serb staff wanted to

16 declare loyalty to the Serbs.

17 From around May 1992, checkpoints were set up and movement was

18 restricted around the town. Pursuant to an order from the SDS, there was

19 dismissal of Muslims and Croats from their jobs.

20 In late May 1992, the witness attended a meeting with local SDS

21 officials and two JNA officers from Banja Luka to discuss the issue of

22 Kotor Varos joining the Bosnian Serb Republic. A JNA colonel made it

23 clear that if no agreement could be reached then the incorporation would

24 be carried out by force. The HDZ representative even suggested that the

25 Croats move out, take their belongings and be given a suitable substitute

Page 7217

1 for their property. Nedjeljko Djekanovic told him, "You're not going to

2 move out when you want but when we decide and in the way we decide."

3 The SDS police chief Savo Tepic stated that the question was not

4 whether Kotor Varos would join the Serb Republic but only whether it will

5 be by force or voluntarily.

6 In late May 1992/early June 1992, the SDS took over the municipal

7 building and did not allow non-Serb representatives to enter.

8 Beginning about 11 June 1992, Serb armed forces, including local

9 soldiers, began military action in and around Kotor Varos.

10 On 12 June 1992, the Serbs, Momcilo Komljenovic, president of

11 Executive Council, and Dusko Skoric, together with a special unit dressed

12 in camouflage with insignias, came to the area of town where the witness

13 was. One of the members of the special unit identified himself as Zdravko

14 Samardzija, a lawyer from Banja Luka. Komljenovic stated that the SDS had

15 taken over Kotor Varos and that the town was now considered as part of the

16 Serb Republic. It was also stated that a Serbian Crisis Staff had been

17 formed. They ordered that all weapons be handed over the next day.

18 In late June, firing was directed toward the houses in Cepak and

19 the witness fled to other parts of town, first Sokoline and then to Ravne.

20 On 7 July 1992 the witness was arrested by Serb soldiers and taken

21 to the police station. Between 7 July 1992 and --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down for the interpreters.

23 MR. MARGETTS: -- And 23 July 1993, the witness was detained

24 overnight, first detained overnight in the police station, then for one

25 and a half months at the Kotor Varos elementary school, and for 11 months

Page 7218

1 in the Kotor Varos prison. On 23 July 1993, he was taken by the ICRC to

2 Karlovac and exchanged.

3 At the police station on 7 July he was interrogated, confined,

4 brutally tortured, and beaten by special unit members under --

5 Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, the French translation has now finished

7 what you have said.

8 MR. MARGETTS: Apologies to Your Honour, and apologies to the

9 translation booth. I will proceed at a more appropriate rate.

10 I'll start this paragraph again.

11 At the police station on 7 July 1992, he was interrogated,

12 confined, brutally tortured, and beaten by special unit members under the

13 command of Samardzija. ARK Crisis Staff member and special police unit

14 commander Slobodan Dubocanin entered the room where the witness was being

15 held and told the witness that unless he gave his interrogators the

16 information that Dubocanin sought, his family would be brought to the

17 police station to be tortured in front of his eyes. Following Dubocanin's

18 appearance, the witness was subject to a game of Russian roulette,

19 witnessed four Cyrillic S's being carved into the back of a fellow

20 detainee and was beaten unconscious.

21 The witness was detained in the elementary school for

22 approximately one and a half months, where he was beaten regularly, forced

23 to perform labour, taken to the front line to dig trenches, and tortured.

24 The following commanders visited the school whilst the witness was

25 detained: Zdravko Pejic, Slobodan Dubocanin, Savo Tepic, Ljubo Petrusic

Page 7219

1 (a police inspector from Zagreb) and Nenad Kajkut.

2 In late August 1992, the witness was transferred to the municipal

3 prison in Kotor Varos. The Special Forces paid regular visits to the

4 prison and beat the prisoners. Prisoners were beaten to death. During

5 1992, the commanders of the prison, were the former policemen Goran Zaric

6 and Dragan Krejic. They received orders from Zdravko Pejic, Ljubo

7 Petrusic, Savo Tepic, Dragan Bojic, the commander of the Serbian police in

8 Kotor Varos, Slobodan Dubocanin, and Zdravko Samardzija. Zaric told the

9 prisoners that he performed security escorts of convoys that took the

10 non-Serb population across the Vlasic mountain to Travnik.

11 The witness was finally released in July 1993.

12 That concludes the 89(F) summary.

13 JUDGE ORIE: The speed was perfect, because the interpreters have

14 finished the translation.

15 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have to deal with the exhibits. Madam

17 Registrar, could you assist us.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P324, under seal, pseudonym

19 sheet. P325, under seal, ICTY witness statement dated 18 and 19 December,

20 1996.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we give any decision on that, I don't think

22 that we have received -- or have we received the final version? So P325

23 still to be received by the registrar in its final version.

24 Yes, Madam Registrar.

25 THE REGISTRAR: P326, map of Bosnia with location of Kotor Varos

Page 7220

1 marked. P327, map of Kotor Varos municipality. P328, under seal, map of

2 Kotor Varos city and surroundings, pre-marked. P329, national structure

3 of the population according to local communities, including the ethnic

4 composition of Kotor Varos. P329.1, English translation. P330,

5 assessment of security situation in the area of Kotor Varos, dated 10th of

6 May, 1993. P330.1, English translation. P331, under seal, Executive

7 Committee statement dated 27 March 1992, and P331.1, English translation.

8 P332, under seal, excerpt from the minutes of the 13th Session of the

9 National Defence Council of Kotor Varos, dated 7 April 1992. P332.1,

10 English translation. P333, minutes of meeting of the Garici branch

11 office, dated 24 May 1992. P333.1, English translation. P334, video of

12 extracts from the Krajina television. P334A, transcript of P344 [sic].

13 And P334.A.1, English translation.

14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, just one matter. I think it came

15 across as the transcript of P344, not 334.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That's how it appears in the provisional transcript,

17 but of course it should be 334. Please proceed, Madam Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: P335, extract from the minutes of the 54th Session

19 of the War Presidency, held on 15 August 1992. P335.1, English

20 translation. P336, precis of minutes of 51st Meeting of War Presidency,

21 held on 8 August 1992. P336.1, English translation. P337, decision

22 permitting freedom of movement in Kotor Varos dated 15 June 1992. P337.1,

23 English translation. P338, under seal, extract of the minutes of the 28th

24 meeting of the Crisis Staff, held on 20 June 1992. P338.1, English

25 translation. P339, conclusion on the resettlement of Rasim Mehmedovic to

Page 7221

1 Zagreb dated 18 June 1992. P339.1, English translation. P340, statement

2 dated 21 August 1992. P340.1, English translation. P341, extract from

3 the minutes of the 26th Session of the Crisis Staff held on 19 June 1992.

4 P341.1, English translation. P342, extract from the minutes of the 31st

5 meeting of the Crisis Staff held on 21 June 1992. And P342.1, English

6 translation. P343, extract from the minutes of the 36th Session of the

7 Crisis Staff held on 24 June 1992. P343.1, English translation. P344,

8 extract from the minutes of the 40th Session of the Crisis Staff held on

9 26th June 1992. P344.1, English translation. P345, under seal, list of

10 camp prisoners in Kotor Varos from 11 June 1991 onwards. P345.1, under

11 seal, English translation. P346, extract from the minutes of the 48th

12 meeting of the Crisis Staff held on 30th of June, 1992. P346.1, English

13 translation. P347, extract from the minutes of the 46th Session of the

14 Crisis Staff held on 29 June 1992. P347.1, English translation. And

15 P348, decision on the formation of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous

16 Region of Krajina dated 5th May 1992. P348.1, English translation.

17 There's one Defence exhibit.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before you turn to D29. Ms. Loukas, you have

19 read the content of this document into the record, and then the witness

20 testified that he didn't know anything about it. Do you insist on

21 tendering D29?

22 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, I do, Your Honour. And I can indicate that we

23 will obtain an official translation and forward that to the Court as well.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that, if it would be admitted,

25 that we would need an official translation. But I mean, what's the

Page 7222

1 purpose of this being in evidence? I mean, apart from that it was read to

2 the witness, because he ...

3 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, yes, it was read to the witness.

4 The fact is that where that meeting occurred is near that particular

5 municipality. It is a matter of relevance, I would submit, that these

6 events occurred in the circumstances, and I think in terms of the context

7 of the events in the relevant municipality and surrounding areas are

8 important. One looks at the sort of -- the vast bulk of material that

9 comes from the Prosecution on a purely contextual level, Your Honour, and,

10 Your Honour, I submit it's as relevant as the contextual material put

11 forward by the Prosecution in the circumstances.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.

13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we don't object to this extract from

14 that book coming in. We accept the Court's observation that this witness

15 has added nothing to that document.


17 MR. MARGETTS: And effectively, it's been tendered from the Bench.

18 But we don't object to its admission.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do agree that it's rather a dossier piece, I

20 would say, of evidence, rather than anything else. Because otherwise you

21 could read whatever you want to read to a witness and he says, "Well, I

22 don't know anything about." And that document would be in evidence. But

23 I think the parties fairly well understand what it means that this

24 document is then admitted into evidence, that it exists as -- and I also

25 do understand that it's not contested, that it is part of a book, because

Page 7223

1 this is not -- well, this is just explained by Ms. Loukas. So if it's not

2 contested, the Chamber will, I think, accept that it's part of that book

3 of Mr. Halilovic.

4 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.


6 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to the Prosecution exhibits --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


9 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to the Prosecution exhibits, of

10 course, Your Honour, I did register an objection in relation to I think it

11 was 330. That's a document, of course, that contains no signature, no

12 seal, and I asked for further --


14 MS. LOUKAS: -- information from the Prosecution in relation to

15 the provenance of the document. And just a more general point in relation

16 to the documents put forward by the Prosecution. It is, of course, for

17 the Prosecution to prove their documents. I think it would be important,

18 I would submit, to ensure that when a group of documents are tendered,

19 that the Prosecution indicate how they came into possession of these

20 documents and where they emerge from precisely. I want to make that point

21 of a more general nature. I've made the specific point in relation to the

22 document 330. But I'd like to make that a more general observation in

23 relation to that, that the Prosecution should be providing, in my

24 submission, an indication of where and when the Prosecution came into

25 possession of particular documents.

Page 7224

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.

2 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, the way that we had intended to

3 proceed was instead of taking the Court's time with a submission on each

4 and every document, we had intended to only make submissions of that

5 nature in regard to the documents that are contested. Some documents on

6 their face don't admit, in our submission, for a contest, if they have a

7 seal, they're signed, and they're apparently authentic and they're

8 contextualised, then it seems to us to be rather excessive to then also

9 take the Court's time presenting evidence as to the chain of custody and

10 how we came to be in possession of them. So it had been our intention to

11 present these documents. Should there be objections in respect of

12 specific documents, then to call the evidence as those objections arise.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, now the question is whether we

14 should provisionally admit into evidence that document or to delay.

15 Because it might be that on many documents that we'll hear evidence at the

16 very end.

17 Could the parties perhaps exchange their views on what documents

18 will be contested and that at a later stage we'll deal with all those

19 documents at once, perhaps the first step to be that we receive an

20 explanation by the Prosecution on how they obtained possession of those

21 documents, and if that would not sufficiently resolve the matter, then, if

22 necessary, to even hear witnesses on it. As the parties are aware of

23 the -- the Chamber is not bound by any national rules of evidence and that

24 the authentication of documents might not always follow the -- of what

25 counsel are used to in their domestic practice.

Page 7225

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: The decision on exhibits 330 will be delayed until

3 you have given a response to the objection of Ms. Loukas. I think the

4 first question is where does it come from and the absence of signature and

5 stamps is -- and seals is -- I don't know whether that's the final issue,

6 but if you would first exchange information about that. Then the Chamber

7 will hear whether there's any agreement or whether the objection still

8 stands. And if the objection still stands, we'll then decide on whether

9 or not to admit that document.

10 The Exhibit 325, the Chamber will first receive the -- through the

11 Registry, a new version of the statement and all the other documents are

12 admitted into evidence.

13 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just one further -- there's just one

15 further matter in relation to the exhibits. Ms. Cmeric has pointed out to

16 me that there are some translation issues with a number of the documents.

17 I point out that they are 332, 333, and P338.


19 MS. LOUKAS: So in all likelihood, I assume the best way of

20 dealing with this issue perhaps is for us to date to the Prosecution --


22 MS. LOUKAS: -- what the issues appear to be in relation to the

23 actual translation.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I think the proper procedure would be -- it's a

25 document tendered into evidence by the Prosecution, so they are

Page 7226

1 responsible for an accurate translation. So if you convey to the

2 Prosecution what the problems in relation to the translation are. If the

3 Prosecution, perhaps after having consulted the CLSS, agrees, then we

4 either receive a new translation or the Defence is satisfied that the

5 translation problem doesn't exist any more. So then either replace the

6 translation or do not hear about it any more. I mean, the only thing the

7 Chamber can do is to consult the CLSS as well, so I think it's the proper

8 way to ask the Prosecution to do that.

9 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. We will consult with Ms. Cmeric

10 and then convey the concerns to CLSS.


12 MS. LOUKAS: As Your Honour pleases.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: D29 -- I mean, all the relevant part has been

15 translated into the transcript by the interpreters, so it can be admitted.

16 But D29.1 still has to be received, and then -- of course, it goes without

17 saying that translations are always admitted into evidence unless there's

18 any technical issue. But the admission of D29 is provisional to the

19 extent that the Chamber still has to receive the translation.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Hannis, is it you who will examine

22 the next witness?

23 MR. HANNIS: I will, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I also did understand that as far as P300 --

25 no, 200 up to 203, that you still need to consult someone who left the

Page 7227

1 Office of the Prosecution. So we'll hear from that as soon as possible.

2 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then next witness is?

4 MR. HANNIS: Elvedin Pasic, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Is there no protective measures?

6 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, I'd like to ask you to escort the

8 witness into the courtroom.

9 Mr. Hannis, will there be any 89(F) summary?

10 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It's just viva voce.

12 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And the time scheduled is three hours?

14 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour. May I inquire what time

15 you anticipate the break?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Now I have to --

17 MR. HANNIS: I think we started at 4.30.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We started at 4.30. That means that we -- but

19 we had a late break. 4.30 would mean up to -- I would say a quarter to

20 6.00 would be ...

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Pasic. Before you give evidence

23 in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

24 solemn declaration. I invite you to make that solemn declaration, of

25 which the text is handed out to you now by Madam Usher.

Page 7228

1 MR. HANNIS: And I should indicate, Your Honour, this witness has

2 indicated he is preferring to testify in English.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So then I take it that you use the English

4 version of the solemn declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I solemnly declare that I will

6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Pasic. Please be seated.

8 May I instruct you that whenever you feel that the use of the

9 English language would cause you any problems, either in listening or in

10 speaking, you're instructed then to address me, because we have

11 simultaneous translation available, and the Chamber would avoid that one

12 single aspect would be missing from your testimony due to language

13 problems. So we leave it up to you to speak English if you want to, but

14 whenever you have a problem, please address me.

15 Mr. Hannis, you may proceed.

16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.


18 Examined by Mr. Hannis:

19 Q. Could you again please tell us your name for the record, sir.

20 A. My name is Elvedin Pasic.

21 Q. And how old are you?

22 A. I'm 26 years old.

23 Q. Would you tell us your date of birth, please?

24 A. June 3, 1978.

25 Q. And Mr. Pasic, I should tell that you because we're both speaking

Page 7229

1 English, for the benefit of the interpreters, we need to leave a gap

2 between speaking.

3 A. Sorry.

4 Q. And I'll probably get in trouble more than you will.

5 Would you please tell us where you were born.

6 A. I was born in the village Hrvacani.

7 Q. And in what municipality and what country was that located?

8 A. Bosnia.

9 Q. And what municipality in Bosnia?

10 A. Kotor Varos.

11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'd like to show the witness an exhibit

12 that's already in. It's the map that's numbered 327.

13 Q. Do you recognise what's on the screen in front of you?

14 A. I'm sorry. It's not clear on the screen.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You see the original, so you if can testify on

16 the basis of the original in your hands.


18 JUDGE ORIE: And, Madam Usher, if it's not clear on the screen, if

19 we have the computer monitor, then we have problems. If you take the

20 computer evidence it becomes more clearly, although even there the letters

21 are difficult to read.


23 Q. Mr. Pasic, if you could take a look at the map that's on the ELMO,

24 to your left. I don't know if you can see that any better.

25 A. Yeah, I can see it.

Page 7230

1 Q. Do you recognise what area that's a map of?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. And do you see your village of Hrvacani on the map?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Can you tell us where, approximately, Hrvacani was located in

6 relation to the town of Kotor Varos? Which direction?

7 A. It's to my right, which is west from Kotor Varos, approximately 13

8 kilometres.

9 Q. And is that 13 kilometres as the crow flies or by road?

10 A. By road.

11 Q. Okay. You can set that down for a moment. I want to ask you some

12 more questions about some other villages later, but let me move on for a

13 minute.

14 How big was your village? How many houses in Hrvacani?

15 A. Approximately a hundred houses.

16 Q. And what was the ethnicity of the people who lived in your

17 village?

18 A. All Muslims.

19 Q. You see on the map that two nearby villages to Hrvacani are Tepici

20 and -- to the north and Savici to the east. What was the ethnicity of

21 those villages?

22 A. Serbs.

23 Q. And also on the map, further south from your village, there is a

24 village named Dabovci. In 1992 did you have any relatives living in that

25 village?

Page 7231

1 A. Yes, I did. My sister, who was married at the time.

2 Q. Do you remember what her husband's name was?

3 A. Yes, I do. Elvir Lihovic.

4 Q. And who in your family lived with you in Hrvacani in 1992?

5 A. I lived with my mom, my father, and later my brother who joined me

6 when he came back from Belgrade.

7 Q. And what was he doing in Belgrade in early 1992?

8 A. Right before the war, my brother, after high school, went to

9 Belgrade to join JNA, and he was accepted at that time.

10 Q. Now, in May of 1992, as I do my math, you would have been 13 going

11 on 14 years of age; is that correct?

12 A. That's correct, sir.

13 Q. Were you attending school then?

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 Q. Where did you go to school?

16 A. I went to Vrbanjci.

17 Q. And what kind of school was that? Did students of all three

18 ethnic groups - Croats, Serbs, and Muslims - attend that school?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. In May of 1992, shortly before your 14th birthday, did you notice

21 any unusual activity in the neighbourhood of your village and your school?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Would you please tell the Judges about what that was.

24 A. Sure. In May 1992, right before the holiday, Muslim holiday

25 Bajram, we noticed that our neighbours from Tepici and Savici were digging

Page 7232

1 trenches from both sides.

2 Q. I'm sorry. Please go ahead.

3 A. Our two well-known men at that time named Muho Dugonjic and his

4 brother Murat Dugonjic, with the concern seeing our neighbours digging

5 trenches, decided to go and talk to our neighbours in a place in

6 between -- there was an elementary school between Hrvacani and Savici,

7 where I attended my four grades. Asked our neighbours why they were

8 digging trenches around the village, and they told them that this is

9 nothing to worry about. It's just a military exercise.

10 Q. Before this event in May 1992, in prior years, had you seen

11 military exercises in your part of Bosnia?

12 A. Yes. When I was attending my school, actually, the end of the 7th

13 grade, one day I was outside taking a break in between classes, 15-minute

14 break. This was the first time when I noticed a big convoy of JNA tanks

15 and armed vehicles going from direction Kotor Varos, passing Vrbanjci. I

16 was with my friends across the street, and we couldn't cross the street

17 right away because of the armed vehicles passing by. We were greeted by

18 the soldiers with a sign -- this sign, and they were passing by. As soon

19 as they passed by we went back to school. We were nervous. We asked our

20 teachers what is going on and they didn't answer the questions. Nobody

21 knew. At that time, we noticed that something is going to happen.

22 Q. Let me stop there for a second. You indicated a sign and you held

23 up -- you held up your thumb and the first two fingers, as I'm doing now;

24 is that correct?

25 A. Yeah, that's correct.

Page 7233

1 Q. And what did that sign mean to you?

2 A. To me, at that time, we knew that there were a sign of JNA at that

3 time. I don't know exactly what that meant, but it meant that -- we

4 learned from our fathers that they were actually using the sign for the

5 Serbs.

6 Q. Now, prior to this year of 1992, had you seen other military

7 exercises by the JNA in your area, in previous years, in 1991 or 1990?

8 A. I remember as a little boy, in the past, that they used to have

9 exercise, and as a matter of fact, they were -- one day I remember they

10 had exercise in our village with the regular JNA uniforms, olive-green,

11 and I remember it was -- as a little boy, it was kind of fun for us to

12 join them, and they were carrying weapons, but not real. And they were

13 more like playing, and it was exercise. I remember we had fun with, you

14 know, they let us go with them and, you know, touch the gun and play. But

15 this time it was totally different.

16 Q. And on those previous occasions, had anyone ever dug trenches

17 around their villages in your neighbourhood?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. And had you seen tanks during the previous exercises in the

20 earlier years?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. Now, I think you said that you saw your neighbours in the Serb

23 villages of Tepici and Savici digging trenches around the time of the

24 Bajram holiday in 1992. Do you remember approximately what date that was,

25 or can you relate it to your birthday of June the 3rd? Was it before or

Page 7234

1 after that?

2 A. I don't really remember it, but I know it was May, and it was

3 really nice outside. I can't remember.

4 Q. And about this time, do you recall an incident where some Serb

5 soldiers came to your village?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Can you tell the Judges about how that happened and what they did.

8 A. Approximately four or five days before holiday Bajram, we had

9 five, six armed -- well-armed soldiers in camouflage uniform walked

10 through our village from south side of the village and through the

11 village. I remember I was outside playing with my friends when we saw the

12 soldiers coming. Because my house was faced south towards Dabovci and

13 Vrbanjci and we could clearly see the road and people coming and going.

14 When we saw them, my mom -- we wanted to run. We -- as a kid, wanted to

15 run and, you know, join them. I remember my mom was telling me, "Don't

16 go. Don't go, because they might come in and get your brother."

17 And she put me in a room, and as a little kid, I didn't want to wait. I

18 escaped and rang on the back side of a house, and I knew that they were

19 going to cross the road right in the middle of the village, and I knew

20 that I can meet them there.

21 So we went, me and my friends, to see who is coming. And right at

22 this crossroad that was in the middle of the village, we had a place that

23 people hang out at night, you know, sit around and talk. We were waiting

24 there with an old man who was sitting there every day, and these soldiers,

25 they came in and, and as they were coming, they were -- they had bullets

Page 7235

1 crossed. They were fully armed. And they greeted us. They were saying

2 good day, and good morning. And they were just saying that this is a nice

3 village. Some of my friends and people later on knew. One of them -- I

4 noticed one of them, who was Boro. I don't recall his last name, but I

5 know him. I've seen him. He was a neighbour. And my mom later on told

6 me that they were all neighbours from Tepici and Savici.

7 We also found out later on that when we escaped to Vakufci, that

8 this was a bet made between them that they can -- they're going to walk

9 through Hrvacani fully armed and see if somebody is going to stop them.

10 Q. And did anything happen other than they walked through the

11 village?

12 A. No. They were just pointing at houses. I remember the house of

13 Muho Dugonjic, who was a well-known rich man, huge house, just finished,

14 it was enormous, and he -- one of the soldiers turned around and he said,

15 "Is that a hotel?" And we were saying no. He says, "Wow, that's a nice

16 house." And they were all staring at the houses and a mosque. No --

17 nothing. They just walk through the village and continue walking towards

18 Savici.

19 Q. And how would you describe the houses in your village compared to

20 the houses in some of the neighbouring villages? I mean, how did your

21 village compare economically or in terms of prosperity with neighbouring

22 villages?

23 A. Well, our -- we -- our village had a lot of people working outside

24 of Bosnia and especially in Germany, Austria, and our village was

25 considered as a really rich economically. Houses, really nice houses, big

Page 7236

1 houses. We had telephones. Everything that can, you know, man can ask

2 for. I remember when they were ready to build the road with asphalt

3 through the village and we asked our neighbours, Tepici and Savici, to

4 join us, to get money so we can share the road. We always did share

5 before that. But to make it easier instead of having just a regular road.

6 I remember they refused, so we stopped with asphalt half a distance, and

7 Tepici and Savici didn't want to cooperate. So in my mind, I think we

8 were really a strong village at that time.

9 Q. Shortly after this event where the Serb soldiers walked through

10 your village during the Bajram holidays, did anything unusual happen with

11 regard to your neighbours in Savici and Tepici?

12 A. I'm sorry, can you repeat that?

13 Q. Yes. Around the time this happened, or shortly after this event

14 where the Serb soldiers walked through your village, did anything unusual

15 happen to your village in connection with those neighbouring Serb

16 villages?

17 A. I don't understand. I don't remember.

18 Q. What was the next thing of importance or the next thing that was

19 out of the ordinary that happened in your village?

20 A. Okay. Second day of Bajram. The tradition, our tradition is

21 families celebrate Bajram by going around and visiting families, friends,

22 and eating every day. As a little boy, I was running around, and on south

23 side of our village, looking at Dabovci, we noticed on Novakovo Brdo two

24 tanks and approximately 15 to 20 soldiers in the distance pulling out of

25 woods, going in and out. I immediately -- when we saw that, I immediately

Page 7237

1 informed my cousin, Akif, who was walking with the men from the house, to

2 the house, that something is going on in our south side of the village,

3 towards Novakovo Brdo. And soon he joined me and we find out that there

4 were two tanks right on Novakovo Brdo and some soldiers. They were --

5 they had uniforms, olive-green uniforms and, like I said, 15 to 20

6 soldiers.

7 Q. And could you tell us what Novakovo Brdo is. Is that a town, a

8 village, or what?

9 A. Novakovo Brdo is a hill, right above Dabovci. It's connected

10 actually to Dabovci but it's a hill, south side -- south from my village.

11 Q. What happened after you told your cousin Akif about this activity?

12 A. Akif and a lot of men, men who were walking from the house, to the

13 house, joined with hodza, gathered together, and it happened to be right

14 next to my house that they were passing by. So they decided to go in my

15 house, to sit down and discuss this issue that was going on with our

16 neighbours.

17 Q. Can you explain to me who or what is hodza.

18 A. Hodza is a -- he was in charge of mosque. He represents our --

19 he's imam who greets families, especially during the holidays, going from

20 house to house, joining the families, and he was in charge of praying and

21 calling people around to pray.

22 Q. Do you know what the men discussed?

23 A. I remember that they were saying something about that the war is

24 on our door and that they need to sit down and discuss how many weapons

25 there is in the village, and that they gathered in a -- we had a huge

Page 7238

1 house. In the house, approximately 20 men, including my father, and I

2 wanted to get in, but at that time he told my mom that we need to stay out

3 of this, and he closed the door. And I don't know what happened there.

4 Q. Do you know if there was any call or demand or request for the

5 people, the men in your village to surrender weapons before this date?

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. And how long did the men meet and discuss things that you weren't

8 allowed to sit in and hear about?

9 A. Approximately 30 minutes, an hour.

10 Q. And what happened after that meeting finished?

11 A. The meeting finished. Everyone went separate directions. My

12 father told us to stay in the house and just to stay safe, because he

13 wants to go outside and see clearly that something's going to happen that

14 night, and he just left the house that night. I don't know where he went.

15 But we stayed in the house.

16 Q. And did anything happen that night?

17 A. Yes, sir. Approximately around 11.00 that night, bombing and

18 shelling started and lasted all night, until morning.

19 Q. And what did you and your mom do when --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.


22 Q. Sorry. Could you tell us what you and your mom did when the

23 bombing and shelling started.

24 A. We joined our -- my aunt and my cousins. We gathered all

25 together. Because my aunt was -- her house was south from my house,

Page 7239

1 really close. My village was kind of expanding at that time and she was

2 close to Vrbanjci. She asked my mom if she can join us that night because

3 electricity went off. And I forgot to mention that also that night,

4 before shelling started, my cousin Akif came over to call his sister, who

5 was at Vrbanjci at that time, and he was trying to reach -- he finally

6 reached her on the telephone, and she told him that three tanks took

7 positions in Vrbanjci and that she was really afraid. And she asked him

8 what is going on. And at that time, he wanted to call -- we asked him to

9 call my sister, who was married -- who was at Dabovci. He was trying so

10 hard to reach her, but everything was -- he was trying so hard. So many

11 voices at that time, he could not reach her at all. At one point I

12 remember him saying, "Okay. I want to introduce myself. I want to reach

13 this person. Is there any chance that I can -- we can somehow introduce

14 ourselves so I can reach this person?" And they were -- they -- he told

15 us - we were sitting right next to him - that they just laughed at him,

16 and soon afterward telephone lines were cut off, and electricity.

17 So go back to my aunt. She asked my mom to come back and spend

18 the night, that night with us, and we went to -- into a house, our

19 neighbour house who was -- they had a room kind of going into the ground,

20 hidden room, and we found out that's the best place to stay that night.

21 Q. So the next morning, did the bombing and shelling stop?

22 A. I remember we were all together. It was just terrible that night.

23 It was just shelling everywhere. Serbs used megaphone and announced

24 that -- I remember that that was one of the terrifying scenes, hearing the

25 voices on the megaphones calling and saying: "Balija, boil the coffee,"

Page 7240

1 calling Muho's and Murat's name. "Have baklava and halva ready for us.

2 Soon we will come and dance kolo."

3 That was -- we were really scared when we heard that. Laughing,

4 bombing and shelling lasted all night. And I remember early in the

5 morning somebody broke the window, and it was my dad and he told us, "Get

6 out. Get out. You're the last group in the village. Serbs are taking

7 over." As a matter of fact, our neighbour house is in flames because it

8 was hit by something, by bombing. And he told us that they were coming

9 from the north side, from Tepici, and they were already in the houses and

10 burning houses.

11 At that time, it was just a chaos. We tried to follow him. He

12 says, "Just get out." Number one, we couldn't get out of doors because we

13 were faced, Novakovo Brdo, and they were shooting at us all the time. So

14 we had to crawl through the window and go behind the houses, run one by

15 one in a gaps that there was open area. And I remember for the first time

16 after all this, I saw my brother, who was waiting on the one -- there was

17 a road coming in our village, and he told us, "I want you to stay and

18 listen to me carefully. We got a sniper hitting and shooting this area,

19 and I want you to cross it quick as you can, one by one, and don't run on

20 the street. Just cross it and get down and just try -- stay cover."

21 I remember I was holding this little boy. His mom was pregnant,

22 and she was carrying small -- a little baby. And she told me, "Grab him.

23 Don't pay attention, if you pull his arm, if he's hurt, if he's crying,

24 just grab him and don't let him go."

25 We crossed that road, and they were firing at us all the time.

Page 7241

1 This woman, she couldn't run because she just had a baby. I remember we

2 got down into a -- we crossed the road. She was standing. We were all

3 shaking. She had holes between her legs from bullets. But thank God

4 nothing hit her. That was really scary.

5 We joined a group -- we joined a group of people who were older

6 people trying to catch up with the group. Already people were left and

7 going towards Plitska, which was mainly Croats. As a matter of fact, all

8 the Croat people living there, they offered us to come and just escape

9 from Serbs.

10 Q. Let me stop you there for a second and ask you a few specific

11 questions. Approximately how far was Plitska from your village?

12 A. Approximately three to four kilometres.

13 Q. And how many people did you see in your group? How many villagers

14 were trying to get out of the village and go toward Plitska?

15 A. Like I mentioned, I was -- our group of five families, six

16 families, were the last ones leaving the village, and I heard that most of

17 the villagers left except five to six people, elderly people who

18 couldn't -- decided to stay in the village, but they couldn't move.

19 Mainly everyone left.

20 Q. Did you later find out what happened to the elder people who

21 stayed behind?

22 A. Yes, sir. They all got killed.

23 Q. And you found out about that when you returned to your village

24 sometime later; is that correct?

25 A. That's correct, sir.

Page 7242

1 Q. We'll talk more about that later on. I want to kind of go in

2 sequence.

3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, would this be a good time for a break?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's a quarter to 6.00. We'll adjourn until 5

5 minutes past 6.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you escort the witness into the

9 courtroom.

10 Mr. Hannis, please proceed.

11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. When we broke, sir, you were telling us about leaving your village

13 and going towards Plitska. After you had crossed the road where you were

14 told there were snipers, did you have to go through any additional hazards

15 before getting to Plitska?

16 A. Yes, we did.

17 Q. Would you tell us about that briefly.

18 A. Right in between Hrvacani and Plitska, there was a field, open

19 field. Approximately 300 to 500 metres up the hill, we had to crawl to

20 get into a wooden area. That area was -- we were -- they were shooting at

21 us from Novakovo Brdo and Tepici. We had to crawl there to Plitska.

22 Q. When you got to Plitska, was your mom also there?

23 A. Yes. My mom -- finally joined my mom after we got a little

24 separated.

25 Q. And how about your dad and your brother? Do you know where they

Page 7243

1 were at this time?

2 A. My father, we got to Plitska together to join my mom. I haven't

3 seen my brother until later on.

4 Q. And how long did you stay in Plitska, approximately?

5 A. Approximately two to three days.

6 Q. And where did you go from there?

7 A. We went to Cirkino Brdo.

8 Q. And was that another village in the area?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. And what was the ethnicity of Cirkino Brdo?

11 A. Cirkino Brdo was all Muslims.

12 Q. And how did you decide -- or how did you happen to go to

13 Cirkino Brdo at this time?

14 A. When we got to Plitska, local people gave us weekend houses to

15 stay in them. When a guy name Hasan - I don't recall his last name - from

16 Cirkino Brdo came to pick up his sister Zena, who was my aunt, to take her

17 to Cirkino Brdo, that's when we joined Zena. And he came there with his

18 tractor and he took us to Cirkino Brdo.

19 Q. And who went with you personally? You and who else from your

20 family went?

21 A. I went with my mom.

22 Q. And approximately how long did you stay in Cirkino Brdo?

23 A. I don't know how many days, but I know that Hasan told us later on

24 that Serbs came to -- at that time, Cirkino Brdo signed loyalty to Serbs,

25 and one day he came in and he told us that Serbs told him if he continues

Page 7244

1 to feed balijas from Hrvacani, that his family and others are going to get

2 killed. That's when he told us and we left Cirkino Brdo, because we

3 didn't want to cause any problems to the other people.

4 Q. And when you say "we left," do you mean you and your mom or any

5 other people?

6 A. I left with my mom and other people who were in the area, but I

7 don't know how many of us.

8 Q. The other people, were they also people from your village of

9 Hrvacani?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Were they -- and these other villagers, were they military-aged

12 men, children, or what?

13 A. Just the civilians.

14 Q. Where did you go from Cirkino Brdo?

15 A. We went to Bilice.

16 Q. And is Bilice also a village in Kotor Varos municipality?

17 A. Yes, it is, sir.

18 Q. What was the ethnicity of that village, if you know?

19 A. Croats.

20 Q. And did the people there take you in, take you and your group of

21 fellow villagers from Hrvacani in?

22 A. Yes, they did.

23 Q. And approximately how long did you stay there?

24 A. I really don't remember.

25 Q. Do you know if it was days or weeks or --

Page 7245

1 A. I know it was weeks.

2 Q. There came a time when you left there, then?

3 A. When we got to Bilice, I remember we entered the side where 15 to

4 20 well-armed soldiers, mainly Croats, were waiting for us. They knew

5 that we were coming in. And they offered us houses and food to stay in,

6 with the local ones. We worked in the fields and stayed there. I don't

7 know how many -- it wasn't days, it was weeks, until the food was running

8 low, and we decided to move out of Bilice to Hrvacani.

9 Q. Back to your original home village?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. You said earlier that Cirkino Brdo had signed loyalty to the

12 Serbs. I take it based on your description of the armed men in Bilice,

13 that they had not signed loyalty to the Serbs at that time.

14 A. No, sir.

15 Q. How many of you decided to go back to your home village from

16 Bilice?

17 A. Approximately 50 to 70 women and children.

18 Q. And do you recall approximately how far it was between those two

19 points?

20 A. Between Bilice and Hrvacani?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. I would say five to six kilometres, but I'm not sure.

23 Q. On your way there, did you meet any soldiers?

24 A. Yes. We met two soldiers close to our village.

25 Q. And do you know what ethnicity they were?

Page 7246

1 A. They were two Serb soldiers.

2 Q. Did anyone in your group know them or know where they were from?

3 A. Well, the area we met them was before war, three Serb houses in

4 between Plitska and Hrvacani. One of the guy -- we were getting tired of,

5 like I mentioned before, living and food was running low. We decided to

6 go back to Hrvacani and then we met them. And one of them was -- I guess

7 he was hurt, because he was -- the other guy was carrying him, and he was

8 holding his stomach like this. And when they saw us, they were surprised,

9 and they told us that -- one of them got really angry and says, "What are

10 you balijas doing here?" And my mom and this other woman, Razija

11 Dugonjic, said, "We want to go back to our village because there's no

12 other place for us to go." He says, "There is no place for you guys to go

13 other than Turkey. You belong to Turkey. And I don't care if you get

14 killed."

15 And then they left towards Vrbanjci.

16 Q. And did your group go on then to your home village of Hrvacani?

17 A. Yes, we did. We passed three houses and we entered our village

18 from south side.

19 Q. And tell the Court what you saw when you arrived there. What did

20 it look like?

21 A. When we entered the village from south side, the place was totally

22 destroyed. I remember my aunt had a house, like I mentioned before, was

23 brand new house, totally burned, destroyed, cattles were all loose, some

24 of them killed on the road. Then later on we find out that all the houses

25 were damaged, burned, totally looted and destroyed. But three houses who

Page 7247

1 were newly constructed were still remaining still.

2 Q. And at this time did you find anything -- find out anything about

3 the old people who had stayed behind when you all went to Plitska?

4 A. Yes, we did. When we reached the crossroad in the middle of

5 village, we got separated. Everyone was running to their home. I

6 remember I went with my mom to check our house. We walked through the

7 burns and destroyed houses and we got to our house. Just the four walls

8 left and two chimneys totally burned. Everything in the house was looted.

9 Nothing left. I found out my dog was killed, and we didn't want to stay

10 long because we got really nervous and scared. So I remember I got some

11 apples from the tree, and my mom called me and said, "Let's go. Let's go

12 meet others."

13 We went to this crossroad when we found this woman crying and --

14 crying and yelling. Then they found this old man, Dugonjic Ibro, who was

15 really religious man and didn't want to go at that time when we left the

16 village. He was killed and burned. They found his bones and they were --

17 Q. Take your time. If you want a break or a Kleenex, there's one

18 right there. Whatever you need.

19 A. My mom told me to stay there. They took his bones and they buried

20 him. Also, the rest of the remaining families went and looked to find if

21 there is anything left. They found four other elder people who were also

22 killed. They gathered the bones and we buried them.

23 Q. Was there a mosque in your village? I'm sorry. Was there a

24 mosque in your village?

25 A. The mosque was no longer standing. The minaret was destroyed.

Page 7248

1 And I wanted to go up there because I remember as a little kid I used to

2 go up there. And I wanted to go steps and my mom told me -- somebody

3 mentioned, "Don't go. Might be mines or something up there." So I didn't

4 want to actually -- I wanted to go, but I didn't want -- they didn't let

5 me to go. But minaret was totally destroyed.

6 MR. HANNIS: Could we have the next --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, microphone, please.

9 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Could we have the next

10 photograph given a number and shown to the witness. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: There's no need to put off your microphone, since we

12 have no protective measures.

13 MR. HANNIS: I forgot, Your Honour. I'll leave it on.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P349.


16 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you tell us if you recognise what's in that

17 picture.

18 A. This is remaining of dzamija in Hrvacani. There is no -- you can

19 see there is no minaret here, so ...

20 Q. Did you find out from anyone about how the mosque had been

21 damaged?

22 A. Yes, we did. We found out that it was destroyed with explosive,

23 because during the time when they were shelling our village, when we left

24 the minaret and dzamija was still standing. And the people -- there was

25 one family who actually wanted to -- stayed there, and they told us when

Page 7249

1 we came back, when we were coming back, they were -- and they were

2 surprised at seeing us. Then later on they told us that it was destroyed

3 by explosive.

4 Q. And who were these people that told you about that?

5 A. An old man who stayed with his wife. He was -- lived close to the

6 dzamija. He didn't want to go anywhere, and he was at that time, he was

7 still alive, but later on we found out that they killed him too.

8 Q. And did he -- did he say -- did he tell who had done the mining of

9 the mosque, set the explosives?

10 A. He said that local ones did from Tepici and Savici. He did not

11 mention the names.

12 Q. While you all were there in the village and after you had each

13 looked at your homes, did anyone come and speak with you?

14 A. Soon after we all gathered and buried the killed ones, we saw

15 tractor full of soldiers coming from Tepici towards village. Then we all

16 gathered together. We knew that they were coming in. And soon, five

17 minutes later, tractor pulled off and 15 to 20 soldiers got out and some

18 of them had camouflage uniforms, some of them olive-greens, and also some

19 of them had covered faces. One of them was really vicious to us. He

20 started yelling and saying, "What are you balijas doing here? There's no

21 place for you."

22 And there was this one soldier who was really kind, who sustained

23 him and tried to calm him, and asked us nicely: What are we doing here?

24 And we told him we are coming back, there is no place for us but the home.

25 And also I remember we had a little -- we had one pregnant woman with us

Page 7250

1 who was ready to deliver a baby and she needed water so bad. When we were

2 asking for the water and this soldier told us to stay there and he'll send

3 somebody to get us from Tepici. And 15 minutes later they got us a bucket

4 of water. And he asked us, "Why do you want to stay here?" And like I

5 mentioned that we decided to stay. And he says, "Well, there is nothing

6 here. Everything is destroyed." And at that time my mom says, "Is there

7 any chance that we can go to Garici and Vakufci, to our relatives?" And

8 he says, "That's a better idea than stay here." But five to six families

9 decided to stay there because they didn't have anybody, no relatives in

10 Vakufci and Garici.

11 Then he offered us two soldiers, whoever wanted to go, we left

12 there for Garici and Vakufci, and like I mentioned, five to six families

13 stayed there that day.

14 Q. These soldiers who came from the direction of Tepici, did your mom

15 or anyone know any of them? Were they locals or were they Serbs from

16 somewhere else?

17 A. I did not recognise anybody. My mom says they were all locals.

18 Some of them from Tepici and some of them from Savici.

19 Q. Now, where is Garici generally in relation to your home village of

20 Hrvacani? What direction, and approximately how far, if you remember?

21 A. Vakufci is to our left, east side from Hrvacani, it goes Savici,

22 then Hrvacani, then Garici. I don't remember how far away from Hrvacani.

23 Approximately a kilometre, one kilometre.

24 Q. And what was the ethnicity of those two villages?

25 A. All Muslims.

Page 7251

1 Q. Did you have to go through any Serb village to get to Garici?

2 A. In order to get to Vakufci and Garici, we had to cross Savici,

3 which was a Serb village.

4 Q. Did anything happen to your group on your way to Garici when you

5 went through Savici?

6 A. When we got to Savici, there were civilians waiting for us, and I

7 remember this one woman was really angry and really vicious to us. My mom

8 knew her name, and later on her son, Dalibor, was going to school with me.

9 She was really angry. She wanted to shoot us. She was actually going for

10 the gun from this soldier. And asked us, "What are you balijas doing

11 here, moving around while our soldiers are dying at Vecici."

12 And she -- this soldier pushed her and told us just to move on, to

13 start walking. She started spitting on us and throwing stones.

14 Q. Do you remember how many of you were in this group that went from

15 your old village to Garici, approximately?

16 A. Approximately 50.

17 Q. And how long did you stay in Garici once you got there,

18 approximately?

19 A. In order to get to Garici we had to cross Vakufci. Some families

20 stayed there, but we went straight to Garici because we had our relative,

21 Atif Agambegovic, who wanted us to come there. And we stayed at Garici

22 approximately three to four weeks.

23 Q. And why did you decide to leave Garici after three to four weeks?

24 A. Once again, food was running low. We helped, everywhere we go, we

25 helped people around to work on the fields, get some food. But nobody

Page 7252

1 expected this, and food was really running low. So we decided to go back

2 to Bilice.

3 Q. When you arrived back at Bilice, what was happening in that

4 village at that time?

5 A. The first time I saw my brother, he insisted for us to come to

6 Bilice. He was waiting for us and told us that somehow he got information

7 that Bilice would not hold out for a long time and that he gave us the

8 option to go to Vecici with him or go back to Garici, which he insisted us

9 to go back to Garici because it was getting dangerous. He gave us 200

10 Deutschmarks, and we noticed local ones packing and at that time we knew

11 that something is going to happen. So we didn't want to waste and we came

12 back again to Garici.

13 Q. This second time that you were at Bilice, approximately how long

14 did you stay?

15 A. Four to five days. I don't really remember.

16 Q. And you said you saw locals packing. What do you mean by that?

17 What were they doing exactly?

18 A. They were packing their belongings. And we asked -- because this

19 lady who gave us a house to stay in, we asked her, "Why are you packing?"

20 And she said, "We are going for Travnik. We have to leave. We have to

21 pack." And at that time, we -- people got -- it was just a chaos. We

22 didn't know where to go. But they were packing just their belongings to

23 get out.

24 Q. So you went back to Garici for a second time?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 7253

1 Q. Did you later hear about what happened to Bilice? Did it indeed

2 fall?

3 A. We heard that pope [phoen] cooperated with the Serbs, signed -- or

4 made an agreement for all the people living in Bilice that they're going

5 to -- Serbs offer them safe passage to Travnik as long as they give up

6 their weapons. And anyone who -- everyone who was in the Bilice at that

7 time did survive. Anyone who didn't want to stay, left to other places,

8 Vecici, Garici, Vakufci.

9 Q. How long did you stay in Garici this second time, approximately?

10 A. Approximately one to two months.

11 Q. And how did you come to leave Garici after this second stay there?

12 What happened?

13 A. I remember we were outside every night. Electricity was cut off.

14 It would come on and off sometimes a day and night. We were sitting

15 outside and watching sporadic firing at Vecici. When our cousin, Akif

16 Pasic, came in from somewhere and just jumped in the house and said,

17 "Okay. Let's have a coffee," and we got really scared because he looked

18 really terrible at that time, long hair, beard, and he was armed. My mom

19 asked him, "What are you doing here?" He says, "Well, I'm here to drink

20 coffee with my friends." And she was, like, "What do you mean?" He says,

21 "Well, I got two Serb friends waiting for me outside." So indeed, there

22 were two soldiers waiting for him outside. He says, "I'm here to tell you

23 that tomorrow civilians from Hrvacani, you need to pack and go. We made

24 an agreement with the Serbs for you to go to Vrbanjci, get a travel

25 document, and all of you need to go to Vecici." [Realtime transcript read

Page 7254

1 in error "Hrvacani"] He didn't stay for long, five minutes he drank, and

2 then he left with them.

3 Q. And these two soldiers that were accompanying him, what was their

4 ethnicity?

5 A. They were Serbs, well-armed.

6 Q. And did it surprise you to see your cousin, who was armed, to be

7 with two armed Serb soldiers?

8 A. Yes, sir. We were really surprised.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, may I just ask one thing which is a bit

10 unclear in the transcript to me.

11 When you told us about an agreement that was made with the Serbs

12 for you to go to Vrbanjci and get a travel document and all of you need

13 then to go to -- and what did you then mention?

14 THE WITNESS: Vecici.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Vecici.


17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we have the next

19 document. It is entitled "Extraordinary Session of the War Presidency

20 continued." The English is 03005024. If that could be given a number and

21 shown to the witness.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution exhibit number P350.


25 Q. Mr. Pasic, I want to refer you to the last paragraph in that

Page 7255

1 document, which is dated the 2nd of November, 1992. And if I may, I'll

2 just read that. It says: "In the further course of the session, Captain

3 Balaban brought representatives of Vecici to negotiate, namely, Raif

4 Alagic, and Pasic, to whom Colonel Bogojevic conveyed the position of the

5 command and then asked them how much time they needed to hand over their

6 arms and sent them back to Vecici to come back with an answer."

7 Do you know if the Pasic referred to in that paragraph in that

8 document would be your cousin who was involved in the negotiations?

9 A. I don't know. But I know that night he came in with the two Serb

10 soldiers, so I assume he was. Otherwise, why would he come with two

11 soldiers?

12 Q. And do you know approximately -- not the specific day, but in

13 relation to the time when your cousin came and told you about this, how

14 much later was it that Vecici actually fell?

15 A. I would say six to seven days, approximately.

16 Q. Okay. So the next day after Akif had came -- had come and told

17 you about this, did you go to Vrbanjci?

18 A. Yes, I did, with my mom and all the people from Garici and

19 Vakufci.

20 Q. About how many of you were in that group?

21 A. I would say approximately 50 to 70.

22 Q. Any military-aged men?

23 A. No, sir. All civilians.

24 Q. And what did you do in Vrbanjci?

25 A. When we got to Vrbanjci, they told us to stay in front of old

Page 7256

1 school - I remember that school - until somebody goes in the new school to

2 get a travel document. At that time, I was -- we were on the grass,

3 sitting on the grass, and a lot of soldiers were passing by, when one of

4 the soldiers approached my mom and told her, "What are you doing here?"

5 And he was -- my mom told me that he was Josip. She knew him at that

6 time. She knew him from the past. He asked her, "What are you doing

7 here? And how is everything?" And my mom just responded, "We're fine.

8 We're okay."

9 Q. What was his ethnicity?

10 A. He was Serb.

11 Q. Did he say anything to your mom or your group about going to

12 Vecici?

13 A. He didn't say anything to us, but five minutes later, whoever came

14 from our group went and got the document, came back, and they told us to

15 get up and move on slowly towards Vecici.

16 Q. And how did you get to Vecici from Vrbanjci?

17 A. We had to talk from Vrbanjci all the way to Vecici, slowly.

18 Q. What happened when you got there?

19 A. I remember when we were crossing and going on the road and

20 crossing -- we crossed the bridge, after the bridge there was a road all

21 blocked with the trees. We had a hard time to cross it. And as soon as

22 we approached it to Vecici, we found a man coming out of bushes,

23 approximately 15 to 20 of them, well armed, waiting for us, and told us to

24 go in two different groups.

25 Q. At this time, who were the people in Vecici?

Page 7257

1 A. All Muslims.

2 Q. Were there any Croats?

3 A. That I don't know. I don't know.

4 Q. Any Serbs?

5 A. No Serbs.

6 Q. And what -- how big a village was Vecici, if you know?

7 A. Vecici was a big village, because they had two dzamijas in the

8 village. I remember when we approached the village, they -- somebody told

9 us, me and my mom, that we have to go on right-hand side from the Cvrcka

10 River that was dividing village on two sides. So we joined -- we went

11 right-hand side, and as we were passing by, I seen a lot of houses. It's

12 a big village, but I don't know how big. I mean, they had two mosques.

13 Q. And what condition was the village in, or the buildings in the

14 village?

15 A. Everything pretty much was destroyed. I remember when we were

16 walking, at that time, my father joined us and he told us, "Okay. Follow

17 me." Because he knew some friend who is going to give us a place to stay.

18 And we were walking by, and these first 30 houses that we passed by were

19 completely burned. And we know why: Because when I was in Cirkino Brdo,

20 Serbs used the air strike for three days to attack Vecici. And I remember

21 the one third day when we were outside watching bombing, Serb soldiers

22 from this side of Croat village next to the Vecici approached. There was

23 a clear open area and we could have seen -- we easily saw and some of us

24 used binoculars. They entered the village and they broke the line. They

25 got there and they burned 30 houses and killed everyone who was in there.

Page 7258

1 And even our hospital that we know, because my aunt -- my cousin was in

2 the hospital, and he survived from that hospital because he crawled and

3 just -- into a ditch when they came in to kill everybody. And he was

4 telling us how everything went -- run out.

5 Q. Let me stop you there and ask you a few questions to clarify it

6 for me. You talked about seeing air strikes for three days on Vecici.

7 When had you seen that happen?

8 A. Like I mentioned that we were at Cirkino Brdo, me and my mom,

9 working on the fields and Hasan's house. And one day we were working on

10 the fields and aeroplane was really -- coming really low, and we thought:

11 This is it. We did not know what's going to happen. So we were just --

12 my mom, I heard my mom saying, "Just lay down and cover your head." They

13 came in and they were attacking from -- coming from Cirkino Brdo and

14 shooting at Vecici, for three days, during the day only.

15 Q. And you were at Cirkino Brdo right after you left Plitska, when

16 you first left your home village; correct?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. And you didn't come to Vecici village yourself until some months

19 later; correct?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. Okay. In showing you around the village, did your father indicate

22 that some of this damage had been it done by aerial bombing?

23 A. Yes, sir. Like I mentioned, we -- somehow they got -- Vecici got

24 agreement with Serbs for five days, no fighting, for five days, no

25 fighting, no nothing. So the following morning, my father took me out and

Page 7259

1 he says, "I want you -- I want to walk -- I want to show you some, you

2 know, places where I've been." And he took me out. And the first weekend

3 house that he was living in at the time, he says there was a big old tree

4 in front of it. I remember I was walking by and he says, "Look at this

5 tree." And big, big bomb was laying right next to it. I guess

6 unactivated. Hit the tree and it felt like somebody just used a saw and

7 cut it off. He was in the house, and when they woke up they find out that

8 it didn't explode or anything. And he says, "Don't come near it, because

9 we don't know what is this." And then he took me -- we were passing by

10 mosque, and this one house that I asked him, "What is that, Dad?" And

11 they had three or four graves freshly in front of the house. And he says,

12 "This whole family got killed from air strikes. A bomb dropped on the

13 house and burned them all." So they buried them right in front of the

14 house.

15 Q. And did he say anything about the burning bomb?

16 A. He says that according to him, they used napalm bombs, because

17 when they explode, everything was on fire.

18 Q. The unexploded bomb you saw where the tree had been sheared off,

19 how big was that?

20 A. I remember I was -- at that time I was 14 years old, so it was

21 my -- approximately my size. It was big, big.

22 Q. You seem pretty tall to me. How tall were you when you were 14

23 years old?

24 A. I know the bomb was this big.

25 Q. Okay. You're holding your hand out indicating a height of maybe a

Page 7260

1 foot higher than the desk you're sitting at.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right.

4 A. And this round.

5 Q. Okay. And you're indicating with your hands how many metres or

6 inches would you say that is?

7 A. Perhaps a metre or two. I don't know.

8 Q. Okay. All right. Now, how long did you stay in --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, for the record, I think the witness --

10 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- indicated approximately a height of one metre and

12 40 centimetres wide.

13 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. How long did you stay in Vecici?

15 A. Four to five days. I don't really remember, but I think it was

16 four to five days.

17 Q. And what was happening in Vecici during the time that you were

18 there?

19 A. The fifth day, the bombing and shelling started, and soon we were

20 told that we have to go in cellar. And the people we -- in the house,

21 they said, "Okay. We have to go outside." And right next to the house

22 there was a cellar. We have to go in there and the fighting started

23 again. Firing, bombing. I think it was the fifth day.

24 Q. Why did you decide to leave?

25 A. I remember that night my father came, and he was -- he came over

Page 7261

1 to say goodbye to me and Mom, and he did. He came in and he hugged me and

2 he told my mom, "We're going to leave tonight. And I don't know if I

3 should take everything with me or if -- you know, I leave him, I'm afraid

4 if we leave him with you," we heard that Serbs were taking all the boys

5 from convoys in Banja Luka. "So I think he's better off if he goes with

6 me." And at that time my mom says, "I think it's a good idea if he goes

7 and joins you."

8 Q. And who was your father leaving with? Was he going by himself or

9 was he going with a group?

10 A. We left at night with a group of 500 to 700 people, total, mainly

11 men. I would say three females and approximately 15 boys.

12 Q. And what age were the boys? Your age?

13 A. My age.

14 Q. What about the rest of the people that were in Vecici? Were

15 there -- well, obviously you told us about your mom. Were there other

16 women and younger children in the village as well?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What were they going to do?

19 A. I remember my mom asking my dad, "So what are we going to do if

20 you guys are leaving? What are we going to do?" He says, "Tomorrow you

21 all raise the flag, white flag, find something, white shirt or something,

22 and just march towards Vrbanjci."

23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, this might be a good point for me to

24 stop, if that's all right.


Page 7262

1 Mr. Pasic, we'll conclude for today. We'd like to see you back

2 tomorrow morning, a quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon [Realtime

3 transcript read in error "morning"].

4 Madam Registrar, this same courtroom? Yes. I give notice to the

5 parties that on Friday we are sitting in Courtroom II.

6 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Pasic out of the

7 courtroom.

8 May I instruct you, Mr. Pasic, not to speak with anyone about the

9 testimony you have given until now and you're still about to give tomorrow

10 and the days that may follow.

11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I note the transcript says -- you said a

12 quarter past 2.00 in the morning. I assume you mean 2.00 in the afternoon

13 tomorrow

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I meant a quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.

15 I did not know what I said. But I said it wrongly, I do understand.

16 Mr. Pasic, it's understood that you're expected at 2.15 in the

17 afternoon and not any earlier.

18 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Pasic out of the

19 courtroom.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, just could you tell us whether you're

22 approximately on schedule?

23 MR. HANNIS: I am, Your Honour. I think I'll be done in an hour

24 or less.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And Mr. Pasic was scheduled for three hours.

Page 7263

1 MR. HANNIS: Correct.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, would there be any problem to start

3 or even to cross-examine the witness tomorrow, once Mr. Hannis has

4 finished?

5 MS. LOUKAS: No, not at all, Your Honour. And I would have

6 thought that the witness's evidence would be completed tomorrow.


8 MS. LOUKAS: Thursday. So that leaves the question of what we're

9 going to do in relation to Friday.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That would be my next question, yes, under the

11 circumstances.

12 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. And I don't know if that was

13 previewed to Your Honours, but we have no other witnesses after this

14 witness this week. I apologise to the Court for not being able to use

15 that time with the witness tomorrow. This was partly -- this was a week

16 that we had Ms. Hansen scheduled and then when we moved her, it was

17 difficult to find a good fit. And this witness we did not want to keep

18 over because he came from across the ocean. And we didn't want to have to

19 continue him over to the following week, when Monday is a holiday and we

20 have a summons witness on Tuesday, the 26th.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand, Mr. Hannis. I make two

22 observations. First of all, that Prosecution still has to get used to its

23 own higher speed; and second, that what the Defence doesn't get from the

24 Chamber, it gets it from the Prosecution. That means some additional

25 time.

Page 7264

1 MS. LOUKAS: There's just one matter I'd like to mention, Your

2 Honour.


4 MS. LOUKAS: If it does appear that we won't be sitting on Friday,

5 I must say from the Defence perspective, all is not lost, because there

6 are in fact some Association of Defence Council training programmes on the

7 EDS system, the electronic disclosure system, CaseMap, LiveNote, that all

8 members of the Defence team were hoping to attend. So there may be a

9 silver lining.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. As every cloud has.

11 Then most likely we'll not sit on Friday. If there's any time

12 left tomorrow, that might be possible, then I'd like very much to continue

13 reading into the transcript of 92 bis statements. We have still a few

14 left.

15 MR. HANNIS: I think we have a number of those ready that we can

16 read in tomorrow.


18 MR. HANNIS: And I think maybe there's still a few exhibits from

19 prior witnesses that I'd like to move from.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But -- from prior witnesses. Of course we have

21 still a list of -- a limited list, but on that list is also numbers 200

22 until 203. But it might be that if we have no information yet, you

23 expected it to arrive only on Friday that we might deal with the remaining

24 exhibits to give decisions on that if any time is left.

25 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. I had specifically in mind the

Page 7265

1 witness Mr. Medanovic, who testified on the 5th of October. He was the

2 gentleman from Kljuc. And I think there were only four or five exhibits,

3 308 through 312.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll check that.

5 We'll adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon,

6 same courtroom.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of

9 October, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.