1 Tuesday, 26 October 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 We have a few procedural items still pending. I leave it a bit
11 to the parties whether we start with them or that we do it later this
12 afternoon. But I see that the Prosecution is there with a strong team,
13 so it might be that they would like to express themselves on some of the
15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. You're quite correct. Mr.
16 Gaynor is here for the purpose of addressing one of those issues.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One of those issues, and that would be which
18 one, Mr. Gaynor?
19 MR. GAYNOR: It concerns the request for videoconference.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In relation to conflicting treaty obligations,
21 safe conduct, et cetera; is that right?
22 MR. GAYNOR: That's right, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, let me first of all ask you whether the
24 Defence has already filed a response to that motion, because I haven't
25 seen it yet.
1 MR. STEWART: It's on its way right now, Your Honour. I signed
2 it about 25 minutes ago and it's on its way.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it be of any use to first read that
4 response and then postpone it to later this afternoon? Perhaps the
5 Chamber during the break could also look at a response. Because I take
6 it, Mr. Stewart, since the issue of the conflicting treaty obligations
7 has been raised last Friday that we find something in your response as
9 MR. STEWART: No, I'm sorry, you don't, Your Honour, on that. We
10 haven't gone into that issue.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then if not, then I would not --
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, perhaps I can explain why, because we
14 weren't just being difficult. After all, the issue having been raised in
15 court the other day it did really seem to us that it was primarily for
16 the Prosecution then to make further investigations on that question to
17 support their motion. So obviously we will look at anything at the
18 appropriate time, but that did seem a fair order and avoid unnecessary
19 work and duplication.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, how much time would you need to address
21 this specific issue?
22 MR. GAYNOR: Very little time, Your Honour, I can tell you right
23 now in about two sentences. We have reconsidered the position in the
24 light of Your Honours' interpretations of the Headquarter agreement and
25 in light of the general preference for in-court testimony as opposed to
1 videoconference testimony. For those reasons we have decided not to
2 pursue our request for videolink testimony. And in all other respects,
3 the motion remains the same. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's a clear answer. Of course, our
5 interpretation is very important, but of course most important for safe
6 conducts is the interpretation by the Dutch government of the host
7 agreement, isn't it, because they have to refrain from whatever one might
8 have in mind.
9 Then we'll look at the matter, but first read the response by the
11 Any other issue, procedural issue, to be raised urgently?
12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, there's a practical issue as opposed
13 to strictly a procedural issue, which is this: I was informed yesterday
14 by Ms. Cmeric that there had been a problem about the installation of the
15 appropriate software in Mr. Krajisnik's computer at the UN Detention
16 Unit, so as to enable him to listen to B/C/S audiotapes of previous
17 evidence in other cases, transcripts from other cases. Not surprisingly,
18 Your Honour, I tend to leave nuts and bolts like that to other members of
19 the team. I didn't realise until yesterday that this was a continuing
20 problem. Neither did Ms. Cmeric. It had been reported to her. But the
21 current position is that Mr. Krajisnik does not have this facility and is
22 therefore unable -- he can listen to audiotapes where they're available
23 of interviews, because it's a different software, I understand, without
24 my being able to go into that, but he can't listen to transcripts of
25 previous evidence. That's clearly --
1 JUDGE ORIE: They are stored on what medium? CD-ROMs.
2 MR. STEWART: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Not normal audio.
4 MR. STEWART: I said a audiotapes. I was using that in a rather
5 loose generic way, I think, Your Honour. Because I believe that they are
6 on CD-ROMs.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what confused me slightly.
8 MR. STEWART: Yes. I beg your pardon, Your Honour. The
9 programme is called an FTR programme, apparently, but again, don't ask me
10 to go any further on that one.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar informs me that already a start was
14 made this morning to resolve that problem and that the Detention Unit and
15 all the technicians have to work together one way or the other, but they
16 are quite busy in establishing such a working relationship at this
17 moment. So with this information, I think I stay out, the Chamber stays
18 out for a little while and see whether it is resolved. If not, then
19 we'll further pursue the matter.
20 MR. STEWART: Yes. Well, I'm grateful, Your Honour. I was
21 actually going to say exactly the same, that I certainly intend to stay
22 out of it as much as possible. But I'm grateful for the Trial Chamber's
23 support when needed.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any other procedural issue? I've got a few on
25 my list, but I'm not insisting.
1 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour, nothing that needs to be addressed
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then may I just mention a few matters that first of
4 all I received an e-mail, copy of an e-mail, which confirms that the
5 investigators, Defence investigators, could come on the 4th and 5th of
6 November. I don't know whether the parties have already discussed what
7 consequences it this would have for the court schedule of that week,
8 especially in view of witnesses to be called.
9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we have discussed that and we've tried
10 to adjust our calendar accordingly. We were going to try to move up one
11 of the witnesses scheduled for next week to this week but he had a
12 passport problem so we weren't able to do that. So our plan is to have
13 two witnesses for those three days and one of the three witnesses that
14 was scheduled to begin on Monday will be moved to the following Monday,
15 November 8th. I can provide an updated schedule to the Defence counsel
16 and the Court later on today.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So that has the attention of the parties.
18 Then your comments on what I would call the court schedule, long-term
19 court schedule, perhaps we wait, but are the parties ready to comment on
20 it, as I indicated last Friday, I think, that both parties would have ten
21 minutes and then, if needed another five minutes.
22 MR. HANNIS: Generally speaking, we are ready, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Would the Defence be ready?
24 MR. STEWART: Actually, I'm not really ready today, Your Honour.
25 I didn't appreciate we were going to be asked today. We can make
1 ourselves ready of course fairly quickly, but not today, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll leave it for today and I'll come
3 back to it tomorrow.
4 MR. STEWART: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then is the Defence -- is the Prosecution ready to
6 call its next witness?
7 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, we are.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher.
9 And I take it that this is Mr. --
10 MR. TIEGER: This is Mr. Radic, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, yes, Predrag Radic. Yes.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, do you hear me in a language you
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do hear you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, before you give evidence in this court,
17 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
18 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
19 the truth. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration of which the
20 text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher.
21 WITNESS: PREDRAG RADIC
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Radic. Mr. Radic,
1 you'll first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.
2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, before I begin, I would note that when
3 Mr. Radic testified previously in the Brdjanin case he did receive a
4 caution pursuant to Rule 90. I don't know if the Court wanted to renew
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, the counsel for the Prosecution, Mr.
8 Tieger, has asked me to draw your attention to Rule 90 of the Rules of
9 Procedure and Evidence. Did you have any specific -- you mean the 90(E)
11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I had no intention of trumping the
12 Court's intentions, but I didn't know if you had an opportunity to be
13 aware of the procedure that was followed in Brdjanin. Obviously, the
14 witness is aware of what happened in that case, and if the Court feels
15 that no further attention is necessary I have no problem with that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I have not been informed about -- is the caution
17 about the right of an accused to oppose against answering a question?
18 That's what you had in mind?
19 MR. TIEGER: Yes. I think Judge Agius referred to him as a
20 protagonist in the events and therefore out of an abundance of caution --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, as I'm just told was done in -- during
22 your testimony in the Brdjanin case, I draw your attention to Rule 90(E),
23 which reads that: "A witness may object to making any statement which
24 might tend to incriminate himself." If you would object to answering any
25 question that might incriminate yourself, this Chamber, however, can
1 compel you to answer the question, but if you are compelled in this way,
2 your answer cannot be used as evidence in a subsequent proceedings
3 against yourself. Apart from that, you're still under a duty to speak
4 the truth, and therefore, if -- the only possible prosecution if this
5 Rule will be applied is that if you would make a false statement, which
6 of course this Chamber does not expect you to do.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Examined by Mr. Tieger:
10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Radic. We've not met --
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. -- before. I'm Alan Tieger, I'm with the Office of the
13 Prosecutor, and I'll be asking you questions first and then the Defence
14 will have an opportunity to ask questions, as will the Court.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Perhaps we can begin by familiarising the Court a bit with your
17 background. You currently live in Banja Luka and are a Serb by
18 ethnicity; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Are you still a professor on the economic faculty at Banja Luka
21 University; sir?
22 A. Yes, I am.
23 Q. And are you still involved as a director of the local brewery?
24 A. Yes, I am.
25 Q. And is it correct that you are the president currently of a small
1 political party known as the Democratic Patriotic Party?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. If I could turn your attention to the multi-party elections in
4 1990. Were you asked at that time by the SDS to consent to have your
5 name put forward by them as a candidate for office?
6 A. Yes, I was.
7 Q. And in November of 1990, were you elected president of the
8 Municipal Assembly for Banja Luka?
9 A. I was.
10 Q. And did you assume that office in January of 1991?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. And is it correct, sir, that after your election, you then in
13 fact joined the SDS?
14 A. After that, yes.
15 Q. And a couple of more preliminary matters. In July of 1991, were
16 you elected to the Main Board of the SDS?
17 A. I was, yes.
18 Q. And in 1992, did you become a member of the ARK Crisis Staff, the
19 Crisis Staff for the Autonomous Region of Krajina?
20 A. By virtue of my position as president in the municipality, yes, I
22 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, during the course of your activities, political
23 activities, in 1990 and thereafter, did you have an opportunity to meet
24 and work with various members of the SDS and Bosnian Serb leadership?
25 A. Through the Main Board, basically, yes.
1 Q. You attended meetings of the Main Board?
2 A. I did, yes.
3 Q. And those were meetings at which SDS policy was formulated?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you also attend various gatherings or assemblies at which the
6 municipal, regional, and republic leaders of the SDS, and later the
7 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, gathered?
8 A. I don't know which gatherings you mean. If you mean meetings
9 where opinions were expressed, then the answer is yes, I did.
10 Q. Let me give you an example of one such meeting and direct your
11 attention to a meeting that was held on February 14th, 1992, in Sarajevo.
12 MR. TEIGER: And in that connection, Your Honour, I would draw
13 the Court's attention to Prosecution's Exhibit 67A, tab 27. That's the
14 binder of intercepts and speeches adduced during the course of Mr.
15 Treanor's testimony.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, this is indicated as an extended session of the
17 Main and Executive Board of the SDS, held in the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo.
18 And by way of directing your attention to some of what was discussed at
19 that meeting and to your own presence there, perhaps I'll be able to
20 bring your attention to one particular part of that meeting.
21 Now, Mr. Radic, to assist you in identifying the location in the
22 B/C/S, I would note that working backwards in the text, you will see one
23 cut -- indication of a cut in the recording, and then a second one. And
24 it's at that second spot that I wish to draw your attention briefly.
25 That's on page 24, Your Honours, of the 31-page English translation.
1 This is Dr. Karadzic speaking and Dr. Karadzic states, beginning at line
2 15 [sic] of page 24: "And, as regards the essence, of which Mr. Radic
3 spoke, now, please, that is why we called you today, to intensify, to
4 introduce the 'second level'" -- second level is in quotes -- "and to
5 intensify the functioning of the government at any cost and on every
6 single millimetre of our territory. Now I'm asking you for a break, what
7 do you say, half an hour?"
8 Mr. Radic, is the meeting of February 14th, 1992 in Sarajevo an
9 example of the kind of meetings you spoke of when you talked about your
10 attendance at gatherings, meetings at which opinions were expressed?
11 A. Well, you know how it is. This is a very long document for me to
12 be able to say. But yes, I do remember that meeting and I arrived at the
13 meeting feeling very ill. And after the break, I in fact left the
14 meeting. And I wasn't able to say anything afterwards, later on. But as
15 far as I am able to gather from what I have here, it was a question of
16 forming the executive organs which in actual fact didn't exist. So this
17 was the beginnings.
18 The 28th of February, 1992 we were still not at war and we didn't
19 have any state organs, no state organs of any kind, on the 28th of
20 February, in actual fact. So in the municipalities, this led us into a
21 position in which we tried to find solutions for everything that we
22 weren't able to do and receive from the state, coming down to us, the
23 executive organs or anything like that.
24 Q. I appreciate your effort to comment on the text, but my question
25 for the moment was limited to the more simple question of your
1 recollection of your attendance at that meeting. Perhaps a little later
2 in the proceeding I'll be able to present you with a copy of your own
3 remarks on that occasion.
4 Now, in addition to your attendance --
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just a bit confused about the witness talking
6 about the 28th of February. Could you clarify that.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. The Court correctly brings our attention to the fact that you
9 mentioned the 28th of February in your answer. I believe that you were
10 referring to this particular document, which is dated the 14th, and so I
11 just want to clarify whether this was just a mistaken recollection of the
12 date or you were referring to something else.
13 A. No. Quite simply, this document, this material that you have
14 just given me, I'm seeing for the first time in this shape and form. All
15 right. It's the 14th of February, as it says here. So it is even
16 clearer, then, that we didn't have any organs and that this was a
17 meeting, as far as I can see - I would have to read through it all to
18 remember all the details - but anyway, it was a meeting devoted to the
19 formation of organs that we were lacking at that time, that we didn't
20 have in Republika Srpska. Nor did Republika Srpska itself exist at that
22 Q. Thank you, sir. I just wanted to clarify the date, and I
23 appreciate that clarification.
24 Now, in addition to attending meetings of the Main Board, your
25 attendance at meetings such as the gathering on February 14th, 1992, did
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 you also participate with leaders of the SDS and Republika Srpska at
3 A. There were a certain number of rallies. One such rally was
4 presented to me in the Brdjanin trial. However, I did not say what I
5 said there, but I did take part in meetings, in rallies. It was a way in
6 which we could express our views about what was going on on the soil of
7 the former Yugoslavia. So if I can put it this way, it was the
8 dissolution of Yugoslavia. And without asking a constituent peoples. So
9 a rally was a way in which we could say that we didn't agree.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, may I ask your attention for the
11 following: You were asked whether you participated with leaders of the
12 SDS and the Republika Srpska at rallies. You gave a lot of details on
13 what you expect the rally to be, on which questions that will follow
14 focussing, but we do not know that yet. The question was quite simple:
15 Whether you participated in such rallies. In the next questions Mr.
16 Tieger will ask you for further details. We are under some time
17 constraints. Could I ask you to listen carefully to the question and
18 first of all answer that question, and then wait for another question.
19 If there would be something important finally missing, you always can
20 address the Chamber and say: Well, I'd like to add a few things on the
21 questions already put to me.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Your Honour, I'd like marked as next in order a video, which is
25 B/C/S V000-4757.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P354, and the
3 transcript, P354A.
4 MR. TIEGER:
5 Q. Mr. Radic, you referred to a video of a rally that you were shown
6 during the Brdjanin case. I'd like to quickly play a couple of excerpts
7 from that tape for the benefit of this Chamber.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: It is important for the transcript, Mr. Tieger, that
10 whatever is said in B/C/S will be translated in English, because
11 otherwise it doesn't appear in the French transcript either.
12 MR. TIEGER: And if we could play clip 1 of video 1.
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The meeting was opened by Predrag
15 Radic, the President of the Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka, with the
16 following message. 'Twice they slaughtered us. We were forgiven but not
17 forgotten. If they try to do the same for the third time we shall
18 neither forgive nor forget, regardless of how non-Christian it may be.'"
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. First of all, Mr. Radic, the video depicts you at that rally; is
21 that right? That was the portion we just saw?
22 A. Yes, it does. Correct.
23 Q. And although on the video it's possible to hear some of your
24 words, what we heard in court today was the announcer paraphrasing what
25 you said. Do you recall your precise words on that occasion? And did
1 the -- do you know the -- can you tell us the extent to which the
2 announcer captured the gist of what you were saying.
3 A. Well, I can't remember all the details in the exact words that I
4 uttered on the occasion, in that year. The journalist did convey what,
5 in his opinion, it was that I said. However, the message was quite
6 clear. The message I sent out was a clear one, to this effect: that
7 those who slaughtered us twice should not attempt to do so a third time.
8 It would be Christian to forgive, but not to forget. We cannot forget.
9 And it was at that point that I think the Prosecutor, said that I
10 instilled fear into the population by saying that on that occasion.
11 Unfortunately, gentlemen, I did not.
12 Q. Mr. Radic --
13 A. That time, not only did they slaughterer us; they cut off our
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, you are telling us about what someone
16 said at a certain moment. This Chamber is not aware of it. This Chamber
17 does not know of that. So there's no reason to deny or to respond to
19 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER:
21 Q. And Mr. Radic, was that in effect a warning to those who would
22 consider taking the steps that you were discussing?
23 A. As I said, that was only a warning. It was not a threat. It was
24 just a warning that they should not proceed along those lines. Because I
25 myself am a victim of World War II, of acts of that kind.
1 Q. Is it correct, sir, that this was a rally just before the
2 plebiscite of November 1991?
3 A. I think that's it, yes.
4 Q. Is it also correct that there was a view among the SDS
5 leadership, and perhaps the Serbian people in general - you can tell us -
6 that those who did not vote in the plebiscite and who did not show
7 solidarity with the Serbian people were, in effect, traitors?
8 A. Well, I don't know. I really can't say that that was the general
9 view. But it was to be expected that the Serbian people would declare
10 themselves in a plebiscite to remain within Yugoslavia. Now, whether
11 they called them traitors or not, I really can't say.
12 Q. The rally itself was intended to respond -- the rally itself and
13 the plebiscite, was intended to respond to the intentions of Muslims, at
14 least as seen by the SDS, to have Bosnia leave Yugoslavia; is that right?
15 A. Well, not only the SDS, I don't think, but the Serbian people in
16 general. The Serb people were generally against stepping down from
17 Yugoslavia, for well-known reasons.
18 Q. And is it correct that subsequent to the plebiscite, that the
19 question of who had acted in solidarity with the Serbian people, and in
20 particular, who had or had not voted in the plebiscite, was used as a
21 measure to determine certain actions against those people, such as
22 dismissals from positions?
23 A. How could you know how people voted at a plebiscite? It's an
24 assumption that that could be used as a basis for one or another measure
25 to be taken. But I should like to ask you how we could do this. We in
1 Banja Luka could not know, absolutely not.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just intervene. From the answer, it appears
3 that either the question has not been properly translated or not been
4 fully understood by the witness. Mr. Tieger, you asked about who had or
5 had not voted, whereas it seems that the witness has understood this as
6 how people had voted rather than whether they had voted.
7 So the question was whether - at least that's how it appears in
8 English - that not how people had voted, but whether or not they had
9 voted was used as a measure to determine certain actions against those
10 people, such as dismissals from positions. That was the question. From
11 your answer, I understood that you either had it wrongly translated or
12 not fully understood. Could you please answer the question.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It couldn't have been a basis for
14 anybody to have been dismissed from their job, and in Banja Luka, at
15 least, not in Banja Luka where I was the president of the Municipal
16 Assembly. Things like that didn't happen.
17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, could I have marked next in order an
18 article from Oslobodjenje of November 12th, 1991, entitled "You should
19 better give yourselves up."
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number --?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution number P355.
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. Mr. Radic, I believe this is a document you had an opportunity to
24 see during the course of your testimony in the Brdjanin case.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And this -- the article quotes Mr. Brdjanin, at that time the
2 deputy chairman of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska
3 Krajina, as proposing that all directors and other managers who did not
4 take part in the plebiscite be urgently dismissed in their positions in
5 the entire Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina.
6 And further down the article, it quotes Mr. Brdjanin as
7 indicating that such people should tender their resignations right away
8 because we shall find out their names in a few days when he we check the
9 lists of voters.
10 Mr. Radic, regardless of your own position that it was absurd to
11 use voting in the plebiscite as a test for retention or dismissal from
12 positions, is it correct that Mr. Brdjanin and others took the position
13 that such dismissals should occur?
14 A. From this we can see that that is right. That was their
15 position. But it didn't turn out that way. That's not what happened.
16 And I can prove it. I can prove that things like that did not happen.
17 Q. Well, we'll get into the question of dismissals further on during
18 the course of our question and answer. If you would wait on that, and
19 you'll have an opportunity to address that.
20 During the course of your testimony in Brdjanin, you also had an
21 opportunity to see an intercepted transcript of an intercepted telephone
22 conversation and indeed listen to an audiotape of that intercepted
23 telephone conversation, one involving you, Mr. Brdjanin, and Mr. Vukic
24 and Dr. Karadzic. Do you recall that, sir?
25 A. I do recall it, yes.
1 Q. And as you indicated during the course of your testimony, that
2 was a conversation that took place after the publication of this article
3 and after Mr. Brdjanin had taken the position that is described in the
5 MR. TIEGER: And Your Honour in that respect I'd like to have
6 marked for identification, an intercepted telephone conversation,
7 transcript of an intercepted telephone conversation, ERN 03083923 through
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P356.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I take it that you want to tender that
11 as an exhibit. Marking for identification is often used for another use
12 of documents.
13 MR. TIEGER: You're quite right, Your Honour. Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Radic, let me direct your attention to a particular portion
15 of that intercepted telephone conversation. And that's found in the
16 English translation toward the second half of page 4 and onward,
17 beginning with Mr. Vukic speaking, who says:
18 "Dr. Vukic: Well, that's great. Here's Radic for a bit.
19 Dr. Karadzic says: Put him on.
20 Dr. Vukic says: I have mostly understood these options and am
21 sticking right to them.
22 Dr. Karadzic says: Excellent.
23 Dr. Vukic says: Therefore there's no problem as far as Brdjo and
24 Radic and I are concerned.
25 Dr. Karadzic says: Well, fine. Brdjo was a bit out of order. I
1 tried to get him off the hook by saying it was a joke. Fuck him. (He
3 Dr. Vukic says: Okay, he was out of order, he didn't fuck... He
4 didn't say that. No...
5 Dr. Karadzic: Well, never mind. What --
6 Dr. Vukic says: ...Brdjo can't say that for his own sake or
7 that... because Brdjo is like a guard.
8 Dr. Karadzic: No. That thing about directors, about directors
9 and --
10 Vukic: Er, directors?
11 Dr. Karadzic: Yes, yes.
12 Dr. Vukic: Very well, then, we'll... it will have to be done, it
13 doesn't need to be explained.
14 Dr. Karadzic says: Well, umm, well, fuck him. Instead of
15 working and keeping quiet he doesn't work but talks.
16 Dr. Vukic says: Dead right.
17 Dr. Karadzic says: Now... he's working hard and there's no talk,
18 fuck him. (Laughs.)
19 And then Dr. Vukic says: Mhmm. Here's Radic for a bit. It's
20 okay, boss. Take care."
21 Now, in part, this telephone conversation was about the newspaper
22 article we just looked at; is that correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And what Mr. Brdjanin was already saying in November 1991 was
25 that people who were not considered loyal to the Serbian state should be
1 dismissed; is that right?
2 A. Yes. Yes, that's what it says here.
3 Q. And we looked earlier at, a few moments ago, at your comments
4 from the rally, the plebiscite rally of November of 1991. I'd like to
5 direct your attention and the Chamber's attention to the remarks of a
6 couple of other participants in the rally.
7 MR. TIEGER: If we could play clip 2, please.
8 [Videotape played]
9 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "All dark forces for different
10 reasons want to topple our common homeland, to divide us up. And I hope
11 that we will not allow that to happen."
12 MR. TIEGER: And clip 3, please.
13 Q. Before we go on, although it may seem obvious to you, if you
14 could just identify that speaker, please.
15 A. Yes. That was Mr. Krajisnik.
16 MR. TIEGER: And clip 3, please.
17 [Videotape played]
18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "...to tell the truth, justice and
19 -- to tell about what's happening in the region.
20 "On the 10th of November, by voting to stay in the joint state
21 with all the Serbian lands and all those who wish to stay with us, we
22 hope to once and for all put a circle by state where there will be no
23 traitors, a state that will not fall apart every 20 years."
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. And Mr. Radic, if you could identify those two speakers at the
1 November 1991 rally.
2 A. The second one was Mr. Velibor Ostojic, and the third one was
3 quite recognisable. It was Mr. Radovan Karadzic.
4 Q. Mr. Radic, in addition to your position as a member of the --
5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I make a suggestion which may be
6 found helpful for the future, which is this: that if a witness is going
7 to be asked to come along and look at a video clip of Mr. Krajisnik or
8 Mr. Ostojic or Mr. Karadzic, then in future, we need not trouble
9 witnesses with that sort of thing, because if the Prosecution would like
10 to run that material past us in advance, we can actually quite reliably
11 identify Mr. Krajisnik. That's not a difficult one for us. Mr. Karadzic
12 is also not very difficult and I don't think Mr. Ostojic would be
13 difficult. We will do that and we will save everybody's time.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER: Well, thank you, Your Honour. That's very gracious
16 of Mr. Stewart, and I appreciate it, but I don't believe the time savings
17 will be considerable. But we'll certainly take that into account.
18 MR. STEWART: They may be cumulative.
19 MR. TIEGER: It would not have obviated the need to show the
20 video, in any event.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. These are short questions on
22 whether the witness recognised the speakers. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER:
24 Q. Mr. Radic, I began to ask you the following: In addition to your
25 membership on the ARK Crisis Staff were you also a member of the Banja
1 Luka municipal Crisis Staff?
2 A. Well, I explained it all the last time, and although Honourable
3 Judge said that this was another case, well, it's the same case. The
4 last time I said that once I was present at the ARK Crisis Staff meeting,
5 just once, and never again.
6 Now, when we're talking about the Crisis Staff of Banja Luka, I
7 was a member of the Banja Luka Crisis Staff. It was something that was
8 upon orders and it did not last for very long, because the activity of
9 the Municipal Assembly was discontinued. That's why. That's what I
10 already said and that's what you can find in my testimony in the Brdjanin
12 Q. Just by way of guidance, Mr. Radic, and following up on the
13 Court's suggestion, I think the answer to that question would have been a
14 simple yes, you were a member of the Banja Luka Municipal Crisis Staff.
15 A. Yes, I was. By ex officio, of course.
16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'd like the witness to be shown an
17 exhibit previously introduced in this case, and that's the December 19th,
18 1991 instructions, the Variant A and B document.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, when this document is distributed,
20 certainly there's a way of improving the logistics of documents, I would
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. Mr. Radic, you were shown this document in the course of your
24 testimony in the Brdjanin case. And you are familiar with it?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, this doesn't seem to be the one. We
2 seem to have another piece of paper altogether, 22nd of June, 1992.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We received the paper of the ...
4 Mr. Tieger, we received one document, 22nd of June, 1992; another
5 document, the 23rd of June, 1992; and the second one without an original,
6 just a translation.
7 MR. TIEGER: Let me see if I can proceed without taking the
8 Court's time with the distribution of the Variant A and B document, Your
9 Honour, based on some questions to the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Q. Mr. Radic, first of all, do you recall the discussion concerning
12 the instructions of December 19th, 1991, the so-called Variant A and B
13 document? Do you recall a discussion during the course of your Brdjanin
15 A. This isn't the document I'm holding.
16 Q. No. I understand that, sir. And it appears that you were handed
17 the wrong document.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We have established -- so questions are put to you
19 now without an underlying document.
20 A. But what document are you referring to? I cannot really talk
21 about it unless I know the title of this document of the 19th of
22 December. First of all, I have to tell you that this document here was
23 not signed by Mr. Brdjanin. That's what I've told you the last time as
24 well. This one dated 22nd June.
25 MR. TIEGER: We will retrieve the document and have it available
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 after the break, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: The relevant document has been found. I think that
5 it's not an entirely new document for us. If it's put on the ELMO, I
6 take it that -- and if perhaps the -- then the original. We have a
7 problem anyhow in ...
8 Mr. Tieger, do you have a copy of the English translation of it?
9 MR. TIEGER: I believe we do, Your Honour. I think it can be
10 found in binder 18, tab 35, but let's make sure we have it before ...
11 JUDGE ORIE: It's you who is going to examine the witness on it.
12 I see we have here one with the number 100 on it.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. With the very helpful intervention and assistance of the
15 Registry, Your Honour, that document is at P65, tab 66, I'm advised. The
16 witness will now have it?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. TIEGER:
19 Q. Mr. Radic, having now had an opportunity - and please take your
20 time if you need to peruse the document further - do you recall being
21 presented with that document and discussing it briefly during the course
22 of your testimony in the Brdjanin case?
23 A. You seem to rely too much upon my memory. I would have to review
24 the document. First I have to tell the Honourable Trial Chamber that
25 nobody consulted me concerning my arrival here, neither on the
1 Prosecution side or the Defence side, in order for me to review the
2 documents in advance to be able to answer these questions. I think this
3 would have been quite understandable. Regardless of the fact that I had
4 a chance of looking at these documents in the Brdjanin case.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, if you need more time to look at these
6 documents, that time will be granted to you.
7 Mr. Tieger, I do not know what other documents you would need at
8 this moment or whether you'd prefer to have an early break and perhaps
9 prepare a copy so that Mr. Radic could, during the break, have a further
10 look at the document. I leave it up to you. But that would be one of
11 the options.
12 MR. TIEGER: In light of the witness's comments, I'm more than
13 happy to take an early recess and permit the witness to take a look at
14 the document.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then preferably not the original that was
16 -- that is in evidence, but if then perhaps copies could be made. And
17 perhaps also copies in the -- of the original in B/C/S so that Mr.
18 Krajisnik is able to follow the testimony of the witness.
19 Mr. Radic, if you would perhaps give that document back to Madam
20 Usher. A copy will be made. You will have an opportunity over the next
21 break to read it again, consult it, and we'll have a break until 5
22 minutes to 4.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 3.29 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 3.59 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed. But before doing so,
1 Mr. Radic, did you have an opportunity to look at the 19th of December
2 document again?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
4 MR. TIEGER:
5 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, did you attend the meeting in December 1991
6 regarding the introduction or distribution of this document?
7 A. I'm not certain, sir. If there are any records of the meeting,
8 it would be useful to look at them. But I'm not really certain as to
9 whether I was at this meeting on the 19th of December.
10 Q. Did the instruction arrive in all municipalities?
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stewart.
13 MR. STEWART: No. It's all right, Your Honour. I withdraw.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Radic, the question was: Did the instruction arrive in all
18 A. It probably did. I cannot really say for a fact that it had
19 reached all the municipalities, but probably it did.
20 Q. In accordance with the -- let me ask you to look -- first, you've
21 had a chance to look these over, including the enumerated items. In
22 accordance with the instructions, did the municipal SDS in Banja Luka
23 establish a crisis staff, as indicated in the document, and specifically
24 as indicated in item 3?
25 A. The municipal SDS to form a crisis staff? Yes.
1 Q. Do you remember how you received the document, or whether it was
2 brought to you by any other member of the Main Board?
3 MR. STEWART: Isn't there a prior question, Your Honour?
4 JUDGE ORIE: There might be a prior question, but --
5 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, there is a prior question,
6 because the question as put makes an obvious assumption.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Mr. Radic, I understand from your previous answer that you don't
9 know whether you received the document, you don't recall specifically
10 whether you received the document at the December 19th -- or the meeting
11 on or about December 19th itself.
12 A. I don't recall being at this meeting at all, but having read this
13 document here, I can see that this document was distributed to the
14 municipal boards of the SDS and that's when this so-called partisan
15 document was then produced.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I think the question Mr. Stewart had in
17 mind is whether the witness received a copy of this document. Even if
18 you did not attend the meeting, did you receive this document, a copy of
19 this document.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please believe me when I say that I
21 don't recall receiving it. But I know that there was a discussion on
22 this document, because the presidents of the SDS municipal boards
23 received them, as it says here. It says here that they were to receive
24 them, and then act upon implementing them. Because this is a party
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. Now, as we can see from the first page of the document, Mr.
4 Radic, it bears the title of the -- and as you've just explained, it's a
5 party document -- bearing the name of the SDS Main Board.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is it correct that there are also local boards and municipal
9 A. There were municipal boards and there were branches in the local
10 communes. Larger towns had municipal boards and had their local boards.
11 Banja Luka, for instance, had 57 local boards because it had 57 local
13 Q. And did the local boards respond to the municipal boards and the
14 municipal boards, in turn, respond to the Main Board?
15 A. The local boards received tasks from the municipal board and
16 responded -- were answerable to the municipal board for what they had to
17 do. And of course, the municipal boards must have been responsible to
18 the Main Board, or, as we used to call it at one time, the central
19 committee, the Main Board, therefore.
20 Q. Let me turn your attention to the ARK Crisis Staff, of which you
21 were a member, as you've noted. The ARK Crisis Staff covered a region of
22 over 20 municipalities in the Krajina; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. TIEGER: And if I could have marked as the next exhibit in
25 order a portion of the Official Gazette of May 5th, 1992.
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Is that a decision we received already at an earlier
4 MR. TIEGER: So I'm advised, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, I see two English documents and
6 one B/C/S document, as I noted before. Is there one English too much or
7 one B/C/S short? One of the 22nd of June, the other one the 23rd of
9 MR. TIEGER: That would not be the document in question. The ERN
10 range for the document that contains the portion to which I'll refer is
11 00882889 through 2938.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's another one.
13 MR. TIEGER: So I'm sorry about that, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 MR. TIEGER: And I should also note, I believe that's contained
17 at P64A of the Treanor documents. I don't have the tab number here.
18 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be Prosecution Exhibit
19 number --
20 JUDGE ORIE: We'll first check will it's already in evidence.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that it's in the footnote material,
23 and which is not transported every day into court. 28 binders.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. Mr. Radic, I'd like to turn your attention to the third page of
1 that document, a decision on the formation of the Crisis Staff of the
2 Autonomous Region of Krajina. And it's a decision adopted, as it
3 indicates at the top of the document, on 5 May 1992. Do you have that
4 document in front of you, sir?
5 A. Yes, I can see it.
6 Q. Now, in addition to indicating the date of formation of the
7 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, it contains a list of
8 the membership of the Crisis Staff.
9 A. Yes. I've seen that. It's on the other side. It's the second
11 Q. And that membership includes General Talic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. From the army, soon to be the VRS?
14 A. I suppose so.
15 Q. And Mr. Zupljanin?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who was the head of the CSB; is that right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And the leading figure, leading representative of the MUP in that
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Now, the president of the ARK Crisis Staff was Mr. Brdjanin.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Now, among other things, Mr. Brdjanin was known for publicly
25 disparaging or denigrating or publicly saying ugly things about Muslims;
1 is that correct?
2 A. Yes. Well, he did not mince his words. He did talk a lot.
3 Q. And you indicated in the course of your testimony in Brdjanin
4 that you had ugly discussions with him about his extreme views against
5 non-Serbs; is that right?
6 A. You should present me what I told you exactly about the ugly
7 discussions, about his extreme views. I would kindly ask you to show me
8 what it was that I said precisely, because I don't like hearing someone
9 else telling me what I said. I'd like to see what I said. And yes, it
10 is true that I did have such discussions with him.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, the witness has answered the question,
12 although not by reference to his earlier testimony, but by just answering
13 your question. I don't know whether we are in any need to compare that,
14 but since the Chamber has not read any Brdjanin transcripts, we have no
15 view on that.
16 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
17 Q. Mr. Radic, before you testified in the Brdjanin case, you were
18 interviewed on two occasions by representatives of the Office of the
19 Prosecutor; is that right?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. One of which took place on 16 July 2001, and the other of which
22 took place on 28 July 2002; correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. During the course of the interview on 16 July 2001, did the
25 following exchange take place: Well, I'm asking -- this is -- excuse me,
1 Your Honour. This is on page 26, beginning at line 28.
2 And this was Mr. Grady speaking, Mr. Radic:
3 "Well, I'm asking you: Did you agree with his extreme views
4 against non-Serbs?"
5 And you responded: "I did have problems with him, but I resolved
6 those directly. I would go to the TV. I'd go to the radio and confront
8 Mr. Grady: "What discussions did you have with Mr. Brdjanin
9 about his extreme views?"
10 Mr. Radic: "Ugly ones."
11 Mr. Grady: "Okay. Tell me about those."
12 Mr. Radic: "You cannot not begrudge him saying things against
13 mixed marriages. In any case, you have everything written down,
14 everything he said, everything was taped and recorded, and as I said, I
15 had huge problems trying to calm it down in Banja Luka."
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MR. TIEGER:
18 Q. First of all, Mr. Radic, does that refresh your recollection
19 about having ugly discussions with Mr. Brdjanin about his extreme views
20 against non-Serbs?
21 A. Yes, yes. Yes. Thank you.
22 Q. Now, among the things Mr. Brdjanin said, did he say that only
23 2 per cent of Muslims would be allowed to remain in the Krajina?
24 A. He didn't say that. Do you mean he told me or said it publicly?
25 Q. Were you aware of the fact -- were you aware of him saying that
2 A. I can't remember his having said it publicly and that it was
3 recorded, about this 2 per cent.
4 Q. Do you remember him saying that it was the obligation of Serbs
5 over the next hundred years to wipe their feet from the foul
6 non-Christians who have befouled this soil of ours?
7 A. You know, things like that, there are a lot of things like that
8 for me to be able to remember all the things that Mr. Brdjanin actually
9 said. But quite obviously, if somebody says in the next hundred years,
10 for example, over the next hundred years, then this was rhetoric, which
11 was far from reasonable thinking. So I really can't remember his having
12 used the term "over the next hundred years." But of course he did say
13 lots of things. He said all sorts of things. But could you just tell me
14 where he said "over the next hundred years." Is it recorded anywhere?
15 Is he recorded as saying that, or did a witness say that he had said
16 that? I'd like to see it in black and white.
17 Q. Well, Mr. Radic, I'm not going to make a habit of engaging in a
18 colloquy with you. My obligation is to ask questions and your
19 responsibility is to answer them.
20 However, in this particular case I am going to play a recording
21 of just that.
22 MR. TIEGER: And if we could have marked next V000-0577.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P357.
24 JUDGE ORIE: CD will be 357 and the transcript will be 357A.
25 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour. Just one moment. Sorry.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've found it.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. Just to put this particular recording in proper context, let me
4 ask to have played first clip 1.
5 [Videotape played]
6 JUDGE ORIE: The sound is not what I expect it to be.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Mr. Radic, let me ask you first if you -- I see you're reading
9 the transcript. Did you have a chance to look at the video as it was
10 being played? I know you didn't hear anything, so you might not have
11 drawn your attention to the video.
12 A. Yes, I see that. Correct.
13 Q. And this was a rally held in the summer of 1994 about the
14 question of ratifying a peace plan?
15 A. I assume so, yes.
16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm going to hazard an attempt at clip
17 2 and hope that the video portion is operative for that.
18 [Videotape played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Distinguished Presidency of
20 Republika Srpska, Gentlemen Deputies, People of Krajina, the Citizens of
21 Banja Luka: We have gathered here today, seven days before we state our
22 views at a referendum to hear the arguments and to remember the victims
23 of this and everything that took place before, the war before, and many
24 previous wars, in 1991, 1941, 1914, 198 -- 1875, et cetera. The victims
25 of this particular war are our children. The victims of the previous war
1 are our brothers, sisters, fathers, and mothers. The victims of the
2 previous war are our fathers and grandfathers and the one before that are
3 our grandfathers and great-grandfathers. All of them had just one goal:
4 to live in large numbers and, graced by God, with their own people and
5 nothing more, recognising that other peoples have the same right.
6 "They say we do not want peace. How dare they say that, of a
7 people whose anthem could consist of the following verses: Krajina is a
8 bloody gown. Blood for lunch and blood for dinner. All of us eat bloody
9 mouthfuls, never a peaceful day or rest. We dream of peace but not at
10 any price, because no one ever gave us peace for free."
11 Q. We move on to a later part of the rally, after you've spoken, Mr.
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "There are no Islamic states on land
15 that has been forever Serbian. There is no Muslim people. And the
16 entire world knows this. There are only Serbian people in these parts.
17 There are Serbs who are Orthodox, Serbs who are Catholics, and Serbs who
18 are Muslim. Under 6: We must urgently determine Serbian territories and
19 borders and present them to the Serb people for their acceptance, because
20 there is no state without a set territory and demarcated borders.
21 "Bosnia is an eternally Serbian land. Until the Turks came to
22 these parts, Bosnia was ruled by Serbian kings. The Serbs have expelled
23 the Turks, the Austrians, and Germans, and the Serbian partisans drove
24 Hitler away from this territory. There is no Army of Republika Srpska,
25 the Republika Krajina and Yugoslavia in these parts. Only the Serb army
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 can exist on this territory. If we want to have a Serbian state -- and
2 we do want to, and must -- then every Serb's imperative, with or without
3 a developed consciousness, must be unification or death, with faith in
4 God and the fatherland."
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Mr. Radic, was that Mr. Kupresanin?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And he was a member of the ARK Crisis Staff; is that correct?
9 A. I think he was, yes. If it says so, yes, then he was.
10 Q. Let me turn a portion of the remarks by Mr. Brdjanin on that
12 [Videotape played]
13 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Brothers and sisters, dear people of
14 Krajina and all other patriots who had come to this meeting. We must not
15 succumb to the greatest deceit that we are voting for war and peace. We
16 are voting for the betrayal or rescue of Republika Srpska. Those leftist
17 forces which are offering us coexistence again must know that it is the
18 obligation of Serbs over the next hundred years to wipe their feet from
19 the foul non-Christians who have befouled our country."
20 MR. TIEGER:
21 Q. Mr. Radic, I take it that refreshes your recollection about at
22 least --
23 A. Yes, it does.
24 Q. Do you recall later on in that same rally Mr. Krajisnik either
25 responding to the comments of Mr. Kupresanin or expressing general
1 approval at the remarks of the previous speakers?
2 A. To be quite frank, I don't remember what it was that he said,
3 because it's ten years ago.
4 MR. TIEGER: If we could play the next clip, please, clip 8.
5 [Videotape played]
6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Dear brothers and sisters, my dear
7 people of the Krajina on both side of the Una River: Having heard these
8 wonderful words by my predecessors, I feel great satisfaction at being at
9 this gathering here today, satisfaction at seeing the fruits of our
10 struggle for our homeland in actuality. I see the strength of our
11 people. I see great patriotism and a great love of one's country. If to
12 that we add the proven heroism of the Serbian people of Krajina, then, in
13 Banja Luka and Krajina, we have here something that all the people of the
14 world can be envious of."
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. And if we could play clip 9, another portion of Mr. Krajisnik's
18 [Videotape played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] We wish to separate, because we
20 cannot live together. I must add something to the discussion and to the
21 address delivered by Mr. Kupresanin. If the Muslims do not wish to be
22 Serbs, if they do not recognise it, then I believe them, because I can
23 only feel sorry for anyone who does not want to be a Serb. Because they
24 don't know how beautiful and glorious it is. That is why we need to
25 separate. It would take a great war to force us to live together again.
1 We don't need war to separate us. We are already separated. The war
2 would be necessary for someone to assemble us together again in the same
3 state. We want those rights, which were attained by all peoples in the
4 former Yugoslavia. We want our own state."
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, you've mentioned and looked at some of the
7 remarks by Mr. Brdjanin. Is it correct that he was put in his position
8 by the leadership because he was very obedient?
9 A. Well, I don't know what led the leadership to appoint him. Yes,
10 it had to appoint him. It must have done. Now, what led them to put him
11 in that position would be very difficult for me to say.
12 Q. Again, drawing your attention to the interview of July 16th,
13 2001, Mr. Radic. On that occasion you also discussed Mr. Brdjanin's
14 position as president of the Crisis Staff. And if I can direct your
15 attention and the Court's attention and counsel's attention to page 61 of
16 the 16 July 2001 interview, beginning at line 10. You were asked by Ms.
18 "Q. So you're saying his power derived from his position of
19 deputy to the Assembly in Pale.
20 You said:
21 "A. Not only that he was a deputy. He was a minister at the
22 same time."
23 Ms. Korner:
24 "Q. But there were many other people equally deputies and
25 equally ministers, Mr. Radic, who were not president of the Crisis Staff,
1 were they?
2 And you said:
3 "A. That was the task he was given. He was very obedient. You
4 couldn't order Erceg or Kupresanin. They're a little different."
5 So it was your position on July 16th, 2001, Mr. Radic, that Mr.
6 Brdjanin's obedience was an important factor in his selection as
7 president of the Crisis Staff.
8 A. Most probably that was how it was. But there were other
9 candidates. Of course, they selected him.
10 Q. And as you said in July of 2001, because he was obedient and
11 others could not be counted on for such obedience; is that right?
12 A. Once again, I repeat: I don't know what led the leadership to
13 give the job to him and not to somebody else, somebody else in the Crisis
14 Staff, presidents of the crisis staffs and so on. Because the deputies
15 had to be in the Crisis Staff.
16 But why was he selected as president? That's a question that I
17 find difficult to answer.
18 Q. But you did not find it so difficult in July of 2001 that you
19 were --
20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, this witness is a Prosecution witness.
21 Once Mr. Tieger has had a couple of goes at asking him the question, he
22 really ought, with respect, to move on then. This is not a Defence
23 witness for Mr. Tieger to cross-examine.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER: Well, as the Court is aware -- first of all, let me
1 say that I agree, as a general matter, that there are limits to any
2 examination. As a general principle for this witness and similar
3 witnesses, I think the Court is aware that the Prosecution rejects the
4 formalistic distinction between a Prosecution witness and a Defence
5 witness in a case where there is a witness who is so entrenched in the
6 events and who -- well, in the case of an insider witness.
7 And so I will -- I'm prepared to move on, but not because of the
8 distinction that Mr. Stewart cites, and I think it's important that at
9 this juncture we note that the Prosecution seeks appropriate latitude in
10 addressing the issues raised by such witnesses.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I would have to reread your submission
12 in this respect, but I remember that you explained the position of the
13 OTP in this respect. But isn't it true that it also said that you would
14 then apply for the Court's consent? It was not presented, as far as I
15 remember, as something that would slowly slip in, but that it was
16 something you considered that might be necessary. Or has the point come
17 that you ask approval for this approach?
18 MR. TIEGER: Well, first of all, I think it wasn't -- I think the
19 Prosecution indicated that it would proceed with the examination as
20 appropriately as possible under the circumstances. I think we've done
21 so. I'm not asking at this point for leave to go beyond the questions
22 I've just asked. That may be necessary. But I think, as a general
23 matter, we've --
24 JUDGE ORIE: You've clearly indicated that the situation is not
25 the usual situation in respect of Prosecution witnesses. But I do
1 understand that you now intend to proceed. So at this moment there's no
2 urgent matter to be decided. Please proceed.
3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Radic, is it also the case that you indicated during your
5 previous testimony that Mr. Brdjanin had assisted individual Muslims and
6 Croats in private, but that if he had publicly stated any of the things
7 he had done for individual Muslims and Croats, he would probably have
8 been removed from his position?
9 A. Yes, that's precisely it. And all those who helped had to do
10 that without other people learning about it, just like at the present
11 time. Those who were helped, who were assisted, don't dare say that they
12 were assisted because of their own people.
13 Q. And is it correct that public acknowledgment of such assistance
14 by a Serb, in a leadership position like Mr. Brdjanin's, to non-Serbs
15 would not only have been problematic for his position but, in fact, would
16 have been dangerous?
17 A. Well, at all events they wouldn't praise him for doing it. Now,
18 what would actually happen to someone like that, I can't say. But one
19 thing is certain: He would be left without his job, without his post.
20 Q. And have you stated in the past, and specifically in the Brdjanin
21 case, that it would not have been healthy to behave in such a way?
22 A. You mean to admit that he helped somebody, to acknowledge it?
23 Q. Correct.
24 A. No, it wouldn't have been healthy for that person, for the person
25 in question.
1 Q. Now, with respect to the ARK Crisis Staff, did they -- did that
2 Crisis Staff receive instructions from above, instructions from Pale?
3 A. It's difficult for me to answer that question. Most probably
4 there had to have been some instructions, because it's difficult to
5 imagine that Brdjanin himself would have made any decisions on his own.
6 Although there were such decisions taken by him personally, alone. But
7 there were also some decisions that were signed but not signed in his own
9 Q. Now, when you testified previously in the Brdjanin case, Mr.
10 Radic, do you recall being asked the following question and giving the
11 following answer at page 22123, lines 3 through 8. Question by Ms.
13 "Q. All right. The regional authorities got their instructions,
14 is this right? And we will look what you said in interview in a moment.
15 But is this right: They got their instructions from the authorities in
17 And your answer:
18 "A. Surely they must have obeyed the instructions that were
19 coming from the republican government. That's for sure."
20 Was that a correct response, Mr. Radic?
21 A. Correct. They had to receive instructions from someone about
22 what they were supposed to do.
23 Q. And that someone was the republican authorities in Pale; correct?
24 A. Someone from a higher level, naturally. He could not have worked
25 on his own initiative; he had to receive instructions about what he was
1 supposed to do. But again, I have to say that some things were done
2 without the knowledge of the people from the top. That's the transcript
3 that you had occasion to see, the discussion between Mr. Karadzic and
4 Brdjanin on the issue of the dismissal of managers.
5 Q. And you're referring to the intercepted telephone conversation of
6 November 1991? That's you nodding your head yes; is that right? Just an
7 oral answer.
8 A. That was the cause of the conflict, and the conflict was actually
9 solved by Mr. Karadzic arriving in Banja Luka and telling them that they
10 were not allowed to do this. Therefore, someone must have done this
11 without his knowledge.
12 Q. And the conversation in November 1991, just for clarification, is
13 the one in which Dr. Karadzic and Dr. Vukic express concern about the
14 fact that Mr. Brdjanin was talking about something that he should just be
15 doing; isn't that right?
16 A. There was another point that you missed here, which was the issue
17 of forming one Krajina out of two Krajinas. This was another point
18 there, but President Karadzic simply interrupted this. He actually
19 prevented it, because it was an irrational move that could not meet with
20 the approval, the understanding of the international community.
21 Q. I think we've heard evidence regarding that issue before, Mr.
22 Radic, but thank you.
23 Now, in addition to receiving and obeying instructions coming
24 from the republican government, did the Crisis Staff pass on instructions
25 to the municipal level of authorities?
1 A. Yes. Some of them implemented them; others didn't.
2 Q. So the ARK Crisis Staff didn't create anything; they just
3 forwarded what they received from a higher level.
4 A. I didn't say this. That's not what I said. They did -- it did
5 produce something. I didn't say that it merely forwarded what had been
6 sent to it.
7 Q. Well, I wasn't trying to paraphrase you on my own; I was actually
8 quoting something you said on -- during the course of your Brdjanin
9 testimony. And directing the Court and counsel's attention to page
10 22290, lines 18 through 24. It was again during the course of
11 questioning by Ms. Korner. You were asked:
12 "Q. Right. Now in respect of the decision that were -- we've
13 seen from the regional Crisis Staff forwarded from -- to municipal,
14 either SJBs or the municipal crisis staffs, were those instructions
15 dreamed up by the region on its own or were they as a result of
16 instructions coming from Pale?"
17 And your answer was:
18 "A. As I've already said, the crisis staffs did not create
19 anything. They just forwarded what they received from a higher level."
20 A. For the most part, that was true. However, there were decisions,
21 as I've said, that they had to withdraw later on, when pressed by those
22 from above, like, for instance, the removals of managers. All those who
23 were not members of the SDS, even if they are Serb, were supposed to be
24 dismissed from their positions. However, Karadzic prevented this because
25 this was not -- he put a stop to this because this was not an instruction
1 that originated from Republika Srpska.
2 Q. Okay. And just to clarify: You're distinguishing efforts to
3 remove or dismiss those who were non-SDS from efforts to dismiss
4 non-Serbs or those considered disloyal to the Serbian Republic?
5 A. I'm not trying to make this effort. I'm simply saying that there
6 were some decisions that had not been received from the republican level
7 of Republika Srpska. And in the documents that you have, you will see
8 that Bosniaks, many of them kept their managerial positions. This was
9 something that was put to me later on, that was taken against me, was
10 held against me, and this is something that you could also find in the
11 intercepted conversations that you have of me being in the capacity of a
12 member of the Crisis Staff.
13 Q. Is it correct that local, municipal Crisis Staff presidents
14 regularly reported to the ARK Crisis Staff to give situation reports on
15 events within their area of responsibility?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And with respect to some of the orders of the ARK that were
18 communicated to the municipality crisis staffs, let me direct your
19 attention and the Court's attention to a few documents. First of all, if
20 we could have marked as the next exhibit, and I think this time it may be
21 the one you already have, Your Honour, the order of 22 June 1992, which
22 is 00916505 through 6506.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P358.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. I understand you're somewhat familiar with this document, Mr.
1 Radic, from your previous testimony, but let me direct your attention to
2 a couple of --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- points quickly. First of all, the date of the decision is
5 22 June 1992. And it states under "Decision," "Only personnel of Serbian
6 ethnicity may hold executive posts, posts are the information flow is
7 possible and then /posts involving/ the protection of socially-owned
8 property, that is, all posts of importance for the functioning of
9 economic entities." And then it goes on.
10 And I also want to direct your attention because we'll refer to
11 it again to the number of the order shown right below the heading, which
12 is 03-531/92.
13 A. Which number are you referring to? You mean the number on this
15 Q. That's correct. The number indicated immediately below the
16 heading, "Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Krajina Autonomous
17 Region, Crisis Staff."
18 A. Yes. 531/92. Yes.
19 Q. Let me next turn your attention to two other documents. First,
20 our exhibit next in order, which is --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you said when you mentioned the ERN
22 numbers 505 up through 506, but I have a translation -- an original only
23 of 505, it seems, and not of 506. Or do I have an incomplete copy?
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it seems to us that 506 is a different
25 document altogether.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's a different document, but since Mr. Tieger now
2 mentioned both pages... Mr. Tieger --
3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if you look at my copy or if I could look at
5 your copy, so that we -- I have -- first of all, I have got three pages,
6 two in English and one in B/C/S.
7 MR. TIEGER: Let me try to address the problem in what I think is
8 the simplest possible manner. If we just limit the exhibit to the single
9 page, 6505.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. Mr. Radic, in that connection, if I could direct your attention
13 to the next exhibit which we'll ask to have marked in order. That's a
14 document emanating from the Petrovac Municipal Assembly Crisis Staff
15 dated 25 June 1992.
16 THE REGISTRAR: P359.
17 MR. TIEGER:
18 Q. Looking at Prosecution Exhibit P359, is it correct, Mr. Radic,
19 that this is a document from the Petrovac Crisis Staff referring to the
20 previous document, that is, the June 22nd order of the ARK Crisis Staff,
21 and informing the ARK Crisis Staff that, pursuant to its decision, the
22 following steps, enumerated in the document, by Petrovac have been taken?
23 A. Yes, only under one of the items here it says that some of the
24 people were removed at an earlier date, I think it's 1-2-3-4, where they
25 say that they have been dismissed earlier on, which means that this was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 done pursuant not to this decision but to their own decisions.
2 Although I have to comment on this particular document by saying
3 something I said already before, that it does not bear Mr. Brdjanin's
4 signature. The signature seems to be that of his secretary.
5 Q. And while you're correct that the Petrovac document indicates
6 that some --
7 A. Not from Petrovac.
8 Q. I'm not referring to that part of your testimony, Mr. Radic. I'm
9 actually referring to your comment about one of the items in the Petrovac
10 document. You indicated that that document indicated that some Muslims
11 were sacked before the order. I just wanted to point your attention to
12 the sentence thereafter, which states: "The remaining employees have
13 been sacked now, with the exception of one employee who was due to
14 complete his tasks but will be sacked after that."
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And if I could next direct your attention to Prosecution's next
17 in order, a 13 July 1992 document bearing the ERN P005-4023.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P360.
19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I misstated the ERN, which I think is
20 correctly stated as P000-7104 through 7108, at least in the ERN original.
21 Q. Mr. Radic, if I could direct your attention to the first lengthy
22 enumerated item under the heading "The following conclusions can be drawn
23 from the information submitted." Looking at the very last item bulleted
24 there, which I believe will be found on the second page, which states:
25 "The decision of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of
1 Krajina in Banja Luka, Number 03531/92, dated 22 June 1992, on filling
2 vacant management and other posts valid for the running of the economy,
3 was implemented in the public security station."
4 That's another indication of a municipal Crisis Staff response to
5 an ARK directive; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Radic, in the Krajina, Muslims were dismissed from the
8 police, from postal services, from hospitals, even music teachers lost
9 their positions; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And this -- these dismissals were sometimes referred to as, by
12 euphemistic titles, such as balancing or differentiation of personnel; is
13 that right?
14 A. That is correct. Particularly when we're talking about the music
15 teachers. Because they did not have any access to any relevant
16 information, unlike, of course, those employed at the postal offices or
17 the police.
18 Q. And these balancing orders, or differentiation of personnel
19 orders, these dismissals, came from Pale, is that right, came from the
20 very top?
21 A. I don't know if this term of differentiation of personnel was
22 used or not, but -- although I know -- I don't know where it originates
23 from, that is, but I know that it was indeed applied at the municipal
24 level, under such a name.
25 Q. And with that clarification, is it correct that the orders for
1 that to be applied at the municipal level came from the very top, came
2 from Pale?
3 A. They did not. They did not come from the very top, but from the
4 level immediately superior to us, to the municipality. There were maybe
5 one or two instructions that arrived directly from the top, but not more
6 than that.
7 Q. Mr. Radic, let me direct your attention again to the interview of
8 July 2001, and specifically to page 27. And I'll begin at line 13 of
9 page 27. That was Mr. Grady asking beginning of the questions,
10 "Q. But the fact is that Mr. Brdjanin was a very powerful man,
11 was he not?"
12 And you said:
13 "A. But not as a -- I wanted to tell you about this. I wanted
14 to draw your attention to the fact that power did not come from the
15 Crisis Staff which only lasted a brief period, because many of the
16 decisions he made I simply rejected. The power of these people came from
17 higher authorities, from their authorities as deputies, as ministers and
18 things like that."
19 And Ms. Korner asked you:
20 "Q. I'm sorry. What decisions that he made did you reject?"
21 And you said:
22 "A. I refused to replace directors, managers who were not
23 members of the SDS. And then I had to use the authority of Radovan
24 Karadzic to draw his attention of what was going on here in the field.
25 Of course that was not forgotten and he was not alone. There were others
1 who wanted to do the same. I confronted him when he wanted to replace
2 the dean, and so on. Also, the issue of the balancing of personnel. But
3 that balancing of personnel did not come from his head. That came from
4 the very top."
5 A. It was the dean -- the rector of the university and not the dean
6 of a faculty that was in question there, and I really confronted him on
7 that issue. What is at point here is that everyone wants to say that
8 Brdjanin had a lot of clout. However, his decisions were not really that
9 much adhered to, at least not by those who had their own head to think
10 with. And that was the reason why I confronted him, drawing his
11 attention to the fact that nobody can remove a rector that the university
12 is an independent institution, and those who know who a rector is, what
13 sort of a person he is, would never have done that. And that's the gist
14 of the matter. That's why I entered into a conflict with him.
15 Q. So you wanted to point out two things to Ms. Korner in the July
16 2001 interview: First, that you confronted Mr. Brdjanin about the issue
17 surrounding the possible termination or replacement of the rector; and
18 two, that in any event, the balancing of personnel did not come from Mr.
19 Brdjanin's head; it came "from the very top." Is that correct?
20 A. I find it difficult now to say whether he received it from the
21 top or not. But I know that this term "balancing of personnel" was
22 something that was being accepted and applied. Perhaps a good starting
23 point for this was the fact that the same thing happened on the Croat and
24 Bosniak sides as well. So that's why they wanted perhaps to even things
25 out, also with the policies in Republika Srpska. Even today, after all
1 the things that happened in Sarajevo, you have very few Serbs holding
3 Q. That may be a good starting point, Mr. Radic, and so let's
4 continue with some of the other information you provided during the
5 course of that interview to the Office of the Prosecutor. If I can
6 direct your attention and the Court's attention and counsel's attention
7 to page 43, lines 17 through 21. And this is you speaking, Mr. Radic:
8 "The balancing instructions came from Pale, the balancing of
9 personnel, which was then supposed to be implemented on the field. And
10 it was a reflection of what was happening in other parts of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And when it came from the higher authority here,
12 then that's when the implementation began."
13 A. That's what I said a moment ago. It only started happening in
14 our part of the field as soon as it happened on the other sides as well.
15 And probably then someone said: You should start doing the same thing.
16 Because in the post offices, in the police in Republika Srpska, there
17 were non-Serb employees, whereas on the other side, everything was
18 actually cleansed of Serbs: the police, the judiciary, et cetera.
19 Q. During the course of that interview, you also pointed out two
20 additional reasons, Mr. Radic, why you knew and concluded that the
21 balancing instructions had come from Pale. The first was the fact that
22 balancing was implemented all over RS, that you could not have a
23 situation where it was just -- you didn't have a situation where it was
24 just implemented in one place. Is that correct?
25 A. Not only in the entire Republika Srpska. It was done in the
1 entire Bosnia and Herzegovina. It took place first in Herceg-Bosna and
2 in other parts of Bosnia where that was under Bosniak control, and even
3 in Croatia, if you will, before it started happening in Republika Srpska.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, may I just interrupt you. Is it your
5 answer that you say this was done in the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina on
6 the instructions of Pale? Because that was the question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, but that Pale went ahead and
8 did that because it was something that was sent out to the whole of
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because it happened in the whole of
13 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please -- yes.
14 MR. STEWART: In fairness to the witness, it was quite a long
15 question and it started off with "balancing instructions coming from
16 Pale," but then the second sentence, the question said: "Two additional
17 reasons why you knew the balancing instructions had come from Pale."
18 Then the first was the fact balancing was implemented. The trouble is
19 when the question gets fairly long it's not surprising that the witness
20 might understand it in a slightly different way.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm trying to see whether clarity, whether we can
22 seek some clarification.
23 Mr. Tieger, the witness seems to not have fully understood the
24 question that has been clarified, I would say, and you got some comment
25 that the question was very long, which is, as such, true. Whether it
1 makes the question not comprehensible any more is a different matter, but
2 the shorter the better. Please proceed.
3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. With that guidance, Mr. Radic, I will try to break down the
6 First of all, I indicated that I would direct your attention to
7 portions of the interview in which you indicated two different reasons
8 why you knew and concluded that the balancing instructions came from
9 Pale. Let me focus on the first one.
10 Did you indicate in July of 2001 that one of the reasons why you
11 knew they had come from Pale was that the instructions were implemented
12 all over Republika Srpska?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And did you indicate that an additional reason why you knew that
15 was because there was a document which was brought to the Crisis Staff in
16 order to be implemented, a document from Pale referring to the balancing?
17 A. I don't know, because I didn't see the document. Quite possibly,
18 I said that a document existed; however, I never saw such a document
19 about this balancing business.
20 Q. If I understood your responses in the interview correctly, and
21 please correct me if I'm mistaken and I'll be more than happy to direct
22 you to particular portions, I think you indicated indeed that you had not
23 seen the document, but that someone brought the document to the Crisis
24 Staff saying that he had such a document and it needed -- from Pale and
25 it needed to be implemented. Is that essentially right?
1 A. Yes, that's right. Somebody said that a document had been
2 brought from Pale and that it had to be implemented. I personally did
3 not see that document. Somebody said. And that's what I wish to repeat.
4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm just missing
5 it, but I'm not finding in the transcript of the evidence in the previous
6 case the bit of Mr. Tieger's question that says, "I think you indicated
7 indeed you had not seen the document but someone brought the document to
8 the Crisis Staff saying that he had such a document and it needed to be
9 implemented." This may be just be me missing the passage, but at the
10 moment I don't have that reference.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, if there's any doubt, please quote
12 literally and indicate the exact source.
13 MR. TIEGER: Well, first of all, is it helpful if I indicate I'm
14 referring to the July interview and not to the --
15 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry. I beg your pardon. That was a slip of
16 the tongue. I realised it was that. When I said transcript, in fact I'm
17 looking at the July interview, yes. And my question applies to that.
18 Yes, 16th of July. One is July 01 and one is July 02. So this is 16
19 July 2001.
20 MR. TIEGER: Well, first of all, I think the witness has
21 responded, but I will be happy to read out the portion of the transcript
22 that prompted the question.
23 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you have a page number.
25 MR. STEWART: It's a different point, Your Honour. The witness
1 has responded. The point is that Mr. Tieger's question purported to
2 include a quite detailed summary, whether it was a quote or intended as a
3 detailed pair paraphrase, and I'm asking where --
4 JUDGE ORIE: If you could first indicate the page number, Mr.
5 Tieger, so Mr. Stewart is in a position to find the right place where you
6 referred to and then ...
7 MR. TIEGER: Page 43 and 44, Your Honour. And in addition, if I
8 could direct counsel's intention to page 22128 of the Brdjanin testimony.
9 So I'll be happy to read both of those. Let me begin with the testimony
10 and see if that resolves the issue.
11 MR. STEWART: We'll see, shall we.
12 MR. TIEGER: And this begins at line 14.
13 Question by Ms. Korner:
14 "Q. Can I just ask you while we're on this page, what did you
15 mean by your answer: 'It was seen by the person who brought it to the
16 Crisis Staff to be adopted'? Do you mean the person who brought it to
17 the Crisis Staff had seen the original instructions from Pale?
18 "A. I assume so.
19 "Q. Yes, but this is what you were telling us. Who was the
20 person who told you that the instructions came from Pale?
21 "A. I can't remember who told me about this. I know that I was
22 told that differentiation of staff should be implemented and this should
23 be implemented throughout Republika Srpska -- not just in Republika
24 Srpska, but also in Sarajevo, Zagreb, et cetera. As a result it was
25 necessary to implement this in our area too."
1 I should finish that.
2 "There must have been a document because I don't think someone in
3 the Crisis Staff would have said let's differentiate the staff. I don't
4 think he would have done this on his own initiative. And this is the
5 euphemism I have referred to."
6 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, my question was directed to
7 this, and my suggestion now is that in fact that passage that Mr. Tieger
8 has read out was not accurately expressed by him in the question he put
9 to the witness, and that Your Honour's suggestion a few minutes ago that
10 if there is any doubt or -- I'm paraphrasing Your Honour now - risk of
11 difficulty, that it would be safer to quote directly from the material
12 rather than to attempt --
13 JUDGE ORIE: By the line that someone brought it to the Crisis
14 Staff? Is that --
15 MR. STEWART: And said -- Ms. Cmeric will bring it back for me
17 MR. TIEGER: I indicated I was going to read two different
18 portions, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you still have to read the second portion.
20 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's first listen, then, to the second
23 MR. TIEGER: Okay. This is page 43, beginning at line 17.
24 "The balancing instructions came from Pale, the balancing of
25 personnel, which was then supposed to be implemented on the field. And
1 it was a reflection on what was happening in the other parts of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And when it came from the higher authority here,
3 then that's when the implementation began.
4 "Q. How do you know that the instructions to balance, as you put
5 it, the workers whatever came from Pale?"
6 Mr. Radic:
7 "A. There is a document."
8 Question by Ms. Korner:
9 "Q. Right."
10 "A. Which you saw. It was seen by the person who brought it to
11 the Crisis Staff to be adopted. And then you need to know that that was
12 not implemented only here, it was implemented in the whole of the
13 Republika Srpska so you could not have a situation where this Crisis
14 Staff would send this to Trebinje."
15 JUDGE ORIE: It's not literally the same, but the --
16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's not a question of not literally
17 the same. It simply isn't close enough the same to be fair to the -- I'm
18 not suggesting it's done deliberately. It demonstrates the importance of
19 keeping very closely. After all, this whole line of examination which
20 does involve my not objecting to the Prosecution already straying over
21 the conventional boundaries in relation to the examination of their own
22 witnesses has involved a certain amount of textual analysis in the course
23 of question and answer of the witness. And given that that is the whole
24 basis of the questioning, it is essential to be careful about the
25 summaries and paraphrases of the material in question.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it clear to everyone now what the
2 difference is? I do understand that document was brought, but whether
3 someone said something at that moment or that he brought it in order to,
4 without perhaps saying so, that's the issue.
5 Mr. Tieger. You will have understood the issue, and let's see
6 how far we come. But you're looking at the clock, I wouldn't say
7 desperately, but --
8 MR. TIEGER: The question is, if we're going to break now, I'm
9 actually going to take a closer look at the transcript and see if this
10 issue needs further clarification. Otherwise I'm inclined to move on to
11 the --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Next subject. Then we'll adjourn until 10 minutes
13 to 6.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 5.27 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm not going to make any point out of
17 it at this moment, the 21st of October submission ends for the reasons
18 set out above the Prosecution informs the Trial Chamber of its intention
19 to seek leave." That's different language from -- it's not -- it seems
20 that a kind of practice has developed at this moment, and let's leave it
21 at this. But that's what confused me a bit. Please proceed.
22 MR. TIEGER: I'm grateful, Your Honour. Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Radic, just to round out the issue we were discussing before
24 the recess: Is it correct that whenever the ARK Crisis Staff wanted to
25 implement anything, they would say that the order came from Pale?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes. Now, whether that was true or not is a different matter. I
2 can't guarantee that that was actually how it was.
3 Q. Is it also the case that Pale sometimes communicated directly
4 with municipalities?
5 A. On rare occasions. And I'm saying that from the aspects of Banja
6 Luka, which is where I was. Rarely, because there were lines, deputy
7 chains, executive government chains, party chains. But with the
8 presidents of the municipalities on rare occasions.
9 Q. Let me just quote directly what you stated on a previous occasion
10 and ask you if that's accurate. Turning to page 22140 of the Brdjanin
11 testimony. You were asked, beginning at page -- at line 1, extending
12 down to about line 10 or so, you were asked about the chain of command.
13 The question is:
14 "Q. No. Again, I'm not suggesting that it was any different
15 anywhere else but I just want to deal with what happened in the Serbian
16 republic. It was transmitted down the chain of command. That chain of
17 command included the regional, municipal, and local communities; is that
19 "A. Not really. It was not exactly a rule. The regional would
20 sometimes be skipped and then we would receive it directly here at the
21 municipal level."
22 And just to complete your answer:
23 "And then when they were not satisfied with the work of the
24 individual municipalities, and the implementation of individual
25 decisions, then -- I mean, I don't think that the chain was always
1 respected, that it was the top and then us, that they suggested directly
2 to us that something needed to be done."
3 So is that essentially correct, Mr. Radic, that sometimes the
4 regional level was skipped and instructions or orders would be received
5 directly at the municipal level?
6 A. Well, that's what I said in my previous answer, that it happened
7 rarely, on occasion, from time to time, and not as a general rule. And
8 so I said that in the conversation, in the interview.
9 Q. And when the municipalities received an order or instruction
10 directly from the republic level, that's what had to be done by the
11 municipalities; is that right?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Now, in some cases, or at least in one case, the municipality had
14 a direct link to the republican level, to Pale; is that correct?
15 A. When necessary, we did, and we used it.
16 Q. And in the case of Prijedor, for example, their deputy, their
17 assembly deputy, had a radio set to regularly report to Pale what was
18 happening in Prijedor; is that right?
19 A. Well, not the deputies. If the municipality didn't have any
20 links to Pale, then it did have radio links. It had to have some sort of
21 connection and link. So yes, there was a case in which somebody did have
22 a radio set link when it came to Prijedor.
23 Q. And that was the deputy Mr. Srdic; is that correct?
24 A. That's what they said. I didn't see him speaking on the radio,
25 but they said that he did have a radio station through which he was able
1 to communicate with Pale.
2 Q. And the context of learning about the radio that Mr. Srdic had
3 was a warning by others to you that you should watch what you say around
4 Mr. Srdic because he was reporting to Pale?
5 A. Well, those were the stories going around, the rumours, that one
6 should be wary of that particular gentleman.
7 Q. Well, in fact, Mr. Radic, those weren't just general rumours;
8 that was information you received from Mr. Srdic's fellow deputies;
10 A. Not only from them. It was going round Prijedor, and I took note
11 of it, and possibly one of the deputies might have said it too. But I
12 don't want to go into that now.
13 Q. Well, you say possibly one of the deputies said it. But you said
14 in a previous interview, the one conducted on July 16th, 2001, that you
15 knew that because his colleagues, his fellow deputies, knew it. Isn't
16 that right?
17 A. Well, if I said that, then that's how it was. So the deputies
18 knew that the gentleman had this, and they conveyed that to me, and I
19 knew about that piece of information.
20 Q. And just for the Court's benefit, I'm referring to page 56 of the
21 July 2001 interview, beginning at line 21. Ms. Korner asks:
22 "Q. How do you know that the deputy for Prijedor had a radio set
23 by which he communicated with Pale?"
24 Mr. Radic said:
25 "A. His colleagues, his fellow deputies know."
1 Question by Ms. Korner:
2 "Q. How do you know?"
3 "A. Because his fellow deputies told me that he is to be very --
4 I should be very careful around him and not talk about anything."
5 And then Mr. Radic goes on to identify the deputy as Mr. Srdic.
6 Mr. Radic, you indicated -- I think we cited a passage from an
7 earlier interview regarding Mr. Brdjanin, and I think you indicated in
8 your previous testimony that Mr. Brdjanin was a powerful man. Is that
10 A. I never said he was powerful. He wasn't really powerful. His
11 power was based on upon -- I've already told what it was based on, on the
12 fact that he was a deputy. He was a minister. He was the vice-premier.
13 So his power did not emanate from the fact that he was president of the
14 Crisis Staff and I never considered him to be a powerful man, myself.
15 Q. And I was referring to page 22127 of the -- of your testimony
16 during Brdjanin, at lines 4 through 11, where you were asked:
17 "Q. Yes, I am. And so what you were saying there was that the
18 authority of Mr. Brdjanin and others in the regional Crisis Staff came
19 from their positions as deputies and ministers; is that right?"
20 Your answer was:
21 "A. Yes, the authority of Mr. Brdjanin. The previous question
22 was that it was true to say that Mr. Brdjanin was a very powerful man. I
23 said that his authority wasn't as a result of his being president of the
24 Crisis Staff; it was a result of him having role of minister, et cetera,
25 and that is where he derived his authority from."
1 A. I didn't say anything different from that a moment ago, that the
2 source of his power was -- did not lie in the Crisis Staff, but rather in
3 the functions that he had and performed. So that's it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, part of your answer was: "I never said
5 he was powerful." In the part just read to you, you say: "It was true
6 to say that Mr. Brdjanin was a very powerful man."
7 That is not exactly the same.
8 A. And, in continuation, Your Honour, I said his power emanated from
9 the functions he held. So that was the sense of his power and where his
10 power lay and was derived from.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But saying: I never said he was a powerful
12 man, and saying: It's true to say that he was powerful. That's totally
13 different. If there are good explanations on where his power came from,
14 whatever, but that is really contradicting each other.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.
17 Q. And on a number of occasions during the course of interview with
18 representatives of the Prosecutor in July 2001, you pointed the same
19 thing out, that the authority in power of Mr. Brdjanin and others was
20 derived from their positions as deputies or ministers. And we point you,
21 for example, to page 60 of the July 2001 transcript, lines 11 through 15,
22 where you say:
23 "A. No. What I claim is one other thing. What I claim is that
24 the authority of the accused, that their authority was not -- they didn't
25 derive their authority from this, this two- or three-month-old
1 institution, quasi-institution of Crisis Staff. Their authorities derive
2 from higher positions, assembly, deputy, ministerial. All of this was
3 just --"
4 And Ms. Korner says:
5 "Q. All right."
6 And that's the point you were trying to make during the course of
7 that interview and also during the course of your testimony; is that
8 correct? I see you nodding, but I just need an oral --
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. Now, is it correct, Mr. Radic, that the link between the
11 leadership of the country and the people on the ground were the deputies?
12 A. Well, it was logical that if you go to the Assembly, then if they
13 go to the Assembly, then they convey what the Assembly had decided upon,
14 and that they insisted that this should be implemented further down the
15 line, what the Assembly of Republika Srpska had decided.
16 Q. Well, I appreciate that, but the question goes beyond the logic
17 of the situation and what can be concluded logically from that
18 information. But it also goes into what you saw and observed and learned
19 from your own position. And in that respect, let me direct your
20 attention to page 4 of the July 2001 interview, when you were asked about
21 the order on establishing crisis staffs. And the question beginning at
22 line 32 of page 4 was:
23 "And how did that order, how was that order received?"
24 And your answer was: "I couldn't tell you that, because the link
25 between the leadership of the country and the people on the ground were
2 And you go on to say: "A document just arrived to say that they
3 wanted to know the structure and who exactly was in the Crisis Staff."
4 In addition to the logic that might be applied to this situation,
5 is it correct to say that it was your observation during 1992 that the
6 link between the leadership of the country and the people on the ground
7 were the deputies?
8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that question was asked about -- it's
9 at 18:11:29. The exact question has been asked and he answered it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And he's now being confronted with a statement
11 he gave and the question is asked again to him.
12 You may proceed, Mr. Tieger.
13 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Mr. Radic.
14 Q. Do you recall the -- if you recall the question, you can just
16 A. Well, it's logical, as I say. Once they come back from the
17 national assembly, it would be logical for them to tell us what was
18 decided upon up above. So in a sense, they were a link between the
19 national assembly on the one hand, and the top leadership on the other,
20 with us down below. I said that last time and I repeat it today. So the
21 deputies were, in actual fact, the people who conveyed to us what was
22 going on and what decisions and conclusions had been made. And amongst
23 others, we have this decision on the formation of the staffs, et cetera,
24 et cetera, where they too had a certain number of seats.
25 JUDGE ORIE: May I just try to find out whether I understood you
1 well. Is your testimony that you said this is what was logic and that's
2 what I saw to happen?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, that's what happened.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.
6 MR. TIEGER:
7 Q. You indicated earlier that whenever members of the ARK Crisis
8 Staff wanted to implement something, they would say it arrived from Pale
9 and it had to be implemented. Is it correct that it would be an Assembly
10 deputy or a minister who would come and say: This is what they've
11 ordered from above, and this is how it will be implemented?
12 A. I wouldn't say it was necessarily a deputy. It could have been
13 anyone else from the political leadership, not just from the ranks of the
14 deputies. Naturally, when they returned, they could, of course, convey
15 to us the decisions as to what needed to be done in the Crisis Staff.
16 Q. So it would have been one of those with contacts with Pale, a
17 deputy, a minister, or someone else in the leadership, who would come and
18 say: This is what they've ordered from above, and this is how it has to
19 be implemented.
20 A. I wouldn't say that they would necessarily verbally convey it to
21 us. There would be a document that would be brought to the Crisis Staff,
22 although it is possible that sometimes they used -- by virtue of their
23 position, they conveyed to us a piece of information that did not
24 necessarily have to originate from above.
25 Q. Let me direct your attention - maybe this will help - to another
1 portion of the interview of July 2001. That's on page 44. And I'll
2 begin at line 14. Question by Ms. Korner:
3 "So did you see the order from Pale before the meeting or after
4 the meeting?"
5 Your answer: "Whenever they wanted to implement something, they
6 would say that it had arrived from Pale and that had it to be
7 implemented, always."
8 Then question: "Yes, but who would say that? Was it Brdjanin?
9 Was it Kupresanin?"
10 Your answer: "I couldn't tell you for sure, but it would have
11 been one of those who had contacts with Pale, an Assembly deputy or
12 minister, and they would always come and say: This is what the --
13 they've ordered from above, and this is how it will be implemented."
14 That's right, isn't it? That's what you said, and that's
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Now, the deputies actually considered themselves more important
18 than the people at the municipal level; isn't that right? And that's how
19 they thought of themselves and that's how they behaved.
20 A. Well, they were deputies to the People's Assembly, and therefore,
21 in terms of hierarchy, they were superior to us.
22 Q. Well, they were not only superior; they were virtually
23 untouchable, weren't they? Isn't that something you said before, and
24 didn't you call them "the Russian Deputates"?
25 A. Well, sometimes they did behave this way. They would go to a
1 meeting, come back, and convey to us something that had been said up
2 above. Whether it actually had been said or not, we did not know. But
3 that was the way they behaved.
4 Q. In fact, Mr. Radic, when you were asked during your July
5 interview who had the power to direct events in Banja Luka and the
6 surrounding area, you said:
7 "The police, the military, and the deputies had a large
9 Isn't that right? And let me direct your attention to that
10 specific site. Page 32, beginning at line 21. Ms. Korner:
11 "Right. Who do you say did have the power to direct what
12 happened in the area of the ARK in the various -- well, first of all let
13 us take it separately. I'm sorry. Banja Luka."
14 Your answer: "The police did, the military did. Deputies had
15 very large influence. Here in the municipality, we have the authority to
16 take care of the local economy, of everything that was in the municipal
17 Statute which had not been changed since before the war."
18 That's correct, is it not, that the deputies had a very large
19 impact and influence over what happened in the Krajina?
20 A. Let us take the order that I used, the police and the military.
21 You need not emphasise why they had influence at a time of war. But
22 equally so, the deputies brought over information decided upon at the
23 Assembly, and that's why they had the power. Even before the war, during
24 the war, and now after the war, they have power locally, just as they did
25 before the war, before the 1990s. They had the authority to deal with
1 the local issues.
2 Q. So at least part of their power derived from the fact that they
3 were receiving the instructions of the leadership and conveying it to the
5 A. They would come to us with the freshest of information from the
6 meetings of the -- from the sessions of the Assembly, from government
7 meetings where decision were taken, telling us whatever took place at the
8 level of the government. Because the presidents of the municipalities
9 had nothing to do with the Assembly level unless they had some specific
10 matters that they had to deal with directly with that level of power.
11 Q. So they would -- is it correct that they would bring this
12 information, they would say it had to be implemented, and they acted in a
13 fashion that indicated that they expected it to be implemented?
14 A. They could expect so, and in some places these decisions were
15 indeed implemented. But in those places where people in the leadership
16 had their own minds, they wouldn't implement them. Of course, the
17 Assembly level was of decisive importance. It is also true that
18 sometimes they did behave in such a stuck-up way; that is true.
19 Q. And part of the reason that the deputies had such power locally
20 and acted in such a fashion is because, in your words, they had a
21 masterful leader in Mr. Krajisnik?
22 A. He was their president, the president of the National Assembly.
23 It doesn't go to say that whatever decisions were taken locally
24 originated from the leaders. Of course, the president of the National
25 Assembly was their superior.
1 Q. Well, Mr. Radic, I'm going to direct your attention to another
2 exchange in the July 2001 interview, one that I'd suggest to you suggests
3 that your view about that issue was -- had something more -- was dealt
4 with something more than his position as president only. And let me
5 direct your attention to page 62, beginning at line 26:
6 "Of course we were at a lower level for them, the municipal
7 level, and that's how they acted. You'll see -- I don't know who of the
8 deputies you summoned, but you'll see even today they think they are
9 something better than others because they were elected the one time in
10 1990, and they continued to rule until 1996. And if they have a
11 masterful leader like Krajisnik, then --
12 Question: "Who was a masterful leader?"
13 And your answer is: "The deputies.
14 Question: "Like Krajisnik?
15 You say: "He was their president. Again, I repeat: You're just
16 wasting your time with the crisis staffs. Everything was planned up from
18 Mr. Radic, weren't you indicating in that answer that the focus
19 should be on the instructions that were being given from above, including
20 Mr. Krajisnik?
21 A. Let me tell you: We are levelling up now the leaders and the
22 presidents of the Assembly. It is true that he was a president of the
23 Assembly, but I've never said that whatever decisions were taken locally
24 originated from him. Because he had the rules of procedure, he had the
25 statute, and he had to act within the legal remit. I have a document
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that was adopted by the National Assembly and signed by Krajisnik which
2 goes beyond the remit of the statute and the rules of procedure. So I
3 never said that he was the leader, the mastermind behind their acts.
4 Q. Well, it's interesting to hear you say that, Mr. Radic, because
5 didn't you also say that Mr. Krajisnik was a member of the Presidency?
6 A. That's common knowledge. That's no secret. It was Mr.
7 Krajisnik, Mr. Koljevic, Ms. Plavsic, and Mr. Karadzic. They were the
8 Presidency. There are no new matters to be discovered there.
9 Q. And it was the Presidency that could exert influence over the
10 police and the army; correct?
11 A. Now, what it was that the Presidency could do, it is difficult
12 for me to answer that one, because I am not familiar with the work of the
13 Presidency. Most probably, they had to have influence over the military
14 as the supreme body. Now, who from among the members of the Presidency
15 had the role of coordinating the army is something I cannot tell you.
16 That is something you need to consult the rules of procedure of the
17 Presidency, where it states the roles of different members. The same is
18 true for the police.
19 Q. Mr. Radic, let me move on to a slightly different topic and ask
20 to have marked next in order B09-8148 through 8153.
21 MR. STEWART: Yes Excuse me, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.
23 MR. STEWART: Yes. Your Honour, the reference is in an answer
24 given a few moments ago. It's line 15. It's 18:27:33. It's page 69,
25 line 15. The transcript says: "I have a document that was adopted by
1 the National Assembly and signed by Krajisnik." And Ms. Cmeric informs
2 me that the original Serbian actually had the sense of: I would like to
3 see a document. Which is clearly very different.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was your testimony that you would like to see
5 any document in which Mr. Krajisnik would go beyond what was in
6 accordance with the procedure?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.
8 That's what I wanted to say, what I actually said.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, of course I noticed that logic is not
10 the answer to everything, but that answer has some logic in this context.
11 MR. TIEGER: I understand that, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
13 THE REGISTRAR: P361.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. Mr. Radic, I know you had an opportunity to see this document
16 during the course of your testimony in the Brdjanin case. Do you need
17 any further time to review it?
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, the Registrar informs me that this
20 document was already Exhibit Number P209, so we leave it.
21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Let me just direct your attention to one part of that document
23 quickly, Mr. Radic, and that is the list of non-Serbs from Prijedor.
24 42.000 Muslims and 2.000 Croats are listed as, in the language of the
25 document, "moved out from Prijedor." In fact, this document indicates
1 44.000 non-Serbs who had been expelled from Prijedor by 1993; is that
3 A. That's what it says. This was compiled by the Ministry of the
4 Interior, Security Services Centre.
5 Q. And that's consistent with your own understanding and
6 observations of what happened in Prijedor in 1992 and 1993; isn't that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the same is true for the remainder of the document as well.
10 That's consistent with your observations at the time?
11 A. Which observations are you referring to?
12 Q. Well, for one thing, you saw some of those people deported,
13 didn't you, deported in cattle cars?
14 A. I've seen that.
15 Q. Now, in addition to the expulsion of these non-Serbs from
16 Prijedor and Kljuc and Sanski Most listed in the document, there were
17 also large-scale murders of non-Serbs during operations conducted by Serb
18 police and army forces; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And in addition, civilian non-Serbs were put in camps; and you
21 yourself had an opportunity to visit one such camp; is that right?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And that was a visit to Omarska in July of 1992; correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Omarska was run by the police and the military; is that right?
1 A. Mostly by the police, yes.
2 Q. But you received permission from -- or you sought and received
3 permission from the military to visit Omarska?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And there you saw civilians confined in conditions that were
6 clearly inappropriate for human beings; is that correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Now, even before your visit, you had some information about the
9 number of people held there and the conditions, because quite a number of
10 Muslims from Prijedor had informed you of that; is that right?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Indeed, even Serbs who lived in Omarska asked -- or some Serbs
13 who lived in Omarska asked the authorities in Banja Luka to transfer
14 Muslims from Omarska camp; is that correct?
15 A. They could not ask anything from the Banja Luka authorities
16 because it did not lie within their authority. It lay within the
17 authority of Prijedor, and it could have been done both by the police and
18 the military, and the Banja Luka authorities did their best under the
19 circumstances. Because the Banja Luka authorities had no authority
20 whatsoever in Prijedor.
21 Q. Okay. The point of my question, in part, was that at least some
22 Serbs came to the Banja Luka authorities to report what was happening in
23 Omarska and seek some kind of assistance for the Muslims there.
24 A. I'll tell you again: They did not seek that from the Banja Luka
25 authorities but from the authorities that were in Banja Luka, to see what
1 they could do about it. It doesn't mean that these were the -- that this
2 was the Assembly of Banja Luka. But there were Muslims who had relatives
3 in Prijedor who came to see us to inquire of their relatives there, and
4 these were the people that I knew both in Prijedor and in Banja Luka.
5 Q. Now, when you visited Omarska, in addition to seeing the
6 conditions that prevailed there, was it also the case that prisoners were
7 abused before your very eyes by being forced to sing Serbian national
9 A. That they did, but they were not harassed physically. I held it
10 against them because I thought it amounted to psychological abuse for the
11 people to sing the kind of songs they are not in favour of.
12 Q. You recognise that for what it was, an effort to humiliate these
13 prisoners; correct?
14 A. There is nothing for me to recognise there. I've told you that I
15 myself thought that it amounted to psychological and mental abuse and I
16 thought that an end must be put to it.
17 Q. Now, among the others in your delegation was Mr. Zupljanin,
18 correct, the head of the CSB?
19 A. Correct, because the police was involved in interrogations there,
20 and we went over there to see how it went along.
21 Q. Did you express your disapproval to Mr. Zupljanin?
22 A. I expressed my disapproval to all of them, particularly to the
23 Prijedor leadership, and I told them that they must look for an adequate
24 solution for these people as soon as possible. Upon my return to Banja
25 Luka, I came to the head of the Red Cross office to tell them that they
1 should do everything in their power to alleviate the situation of the
2 people. It was Mr. Minik [phoen]. He was the chief of the Red Cross in
3 Banja Luka.
4 Q. Now, you didn't specifically ask Mr. Zupljanin to do something
5 about it because he had his own hierarchy; is that right?
6 A. I could only apply to the police, just as one could before the
7 war, during the war, and after the war. You could only apply to the
8 police to do something, ask them to do something, but they were never
9 under the local authority. Because the you have the republican Ministry
10 of the Interior and then the lines down to the field. The local
11 authorities have nothing to do with the police. You could deduce that
12 from the statutes as of before the war, during the war, and after the
14 Q. And everything that was done in Krajina by the police had to be
15 verified in Pale by the Minister of the Interior; is that right?
16 A. I suppose so, because he was the one who in fact coordinated
17 everything. I suppose so, because there was nobody else in the
18 government who was in charge of the police and the Ministry of the
20 Q. At any rate, that was your understanding in 1992 of how the
21 hierarchy worked; correct?
22 A. I was aware of it immediately because the only town that did not
23 have the public security service was Banja Luka, because it was there
24 that the security services centre was in place for the 20 municipalities.
25 So that you had nobody to appeal to to bring law and order to the major
1 town in Republika Srpska. But that's the way things happened, and that's
2 the way it was done.
3 Q. So focusing now on the hierarchy of the Ministry of the Interior,
4 essentially, instructions would come down from the Minister of the
5 Interior to the CSB, and then from there to the local level, and reports
6 went back up?
7 A. Yes, quite right.
8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I could have marked as Prosecution's
9 next in order an article from Kozarski Vjesnik dated July 17th, 1992, and
10 bearing ERN of 0300-3570.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number --
12 THE REGISTRAR: P361.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. Mr. Radic, P361 is an article from Kozarski Vjesnik which
15 reflects the visit to Omarska by you and others, about which we've just
16 spoken; correct?
17 A. I'm just reading it. May I be allowed to read through it?
18 Q. Yes, please.
19 A. I assume that you're referring to this article here.
20 Q. I'm referring to a article headlined "Krajina representatives in
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, the article indicates that you, Mr. Zupljanin, Dr. Vukic,
24 and Mr. Brdjanin were the members -- were the representatives from the
25 Autonomous Region of Krajina who visited Prijedor on the day we've spoken
2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I don't know how quickly the witness
3 is reading, but he wasn't given very long to read an article that he said
4 he wanted to read.
5 MR. TIEGER: I responded to something the witness had said, but
6 I'm more than happy to give him as much time to review it as may be
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, whenever you feel you need more time --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You may continue, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger grants you then you may address me.
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. I take it that was an accurate reflection of who the members of
13 the visiting party were.
14 A. Yes, correct.
15 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to some remarks by Mr.
16 Brdjanin as he's quoted in the article. And to orient you, there seems
17 to be a sub-headline called "Nobody finds it easy." And then I would
18 direct your attention to a portion of the article which is the fourth
19 paragraph below that and begins with Mr. Brdjanin's name.
20 A. So it's not this article here, is it?
21 Q. Well, that's a good question. So let's make sure we're talking
22 about precisely the same thing. And I may be in fact directing your
23 attention to what has been put together as one article, but in fact
24 reflected as more than one there. So, as you know, I first directed your
25 attention to --
1 A. Yes. I've found it. Here it is. I had to read through it to
2 find it.
3 Q. And you find the particular paragraph that begins with Mr.
4 Brdjanin's name, full name, Radoslav Brdjanin?
5 A. Yes. I assume that you're drawing my attention to this portion
6 here, and the assertion made by Mr. Brdjanin. And the quotation: "What
7 we have seen in Prijedor is an example of a job well done and it is a
8 pity that many in Banja Luka are not aware of it yet," et cetera, et
9 cetera, and then "there is constantly growing number of superfluous
10 Muslims in Banja Luka," et cetera, et cetera. Did you have that in mind?
11 Is that what you're referring to?
12 Q. That's precisely the portion I wanted to direct your attention
14 A. And that follows the style of Mr. Brdjanin generally. I have
15 nothing more to say on that. The only thing correct here is that what
16 was happening around Banja Luka meant that we were subject to a large
17 number of refugees coming into Banja Luka looking for safety and
19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, can I pause for just one moment.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me. I'm moving on to another
22 portion, which I think would be difficult to compress in five minutes and
23 is probably significant enough to ensure that we do it in one portion.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we do so, Mr. Tieger, I find a -- oh,
25 yes. It's the whole of the newspaper that in four pages and only the
1 front page, I take it, translated. Is that a correct understanding?
2 MR. TIEGER: I can double-check, but that is my understanding as
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's the left side of the first page which
5 is translated. But perhaps you could ask -- the witness doesn't know
6 what is translated.
7 MR. TIEGER: Well, what I certainly can do is simply get that
8 checked before tomorrow morning and answer the Court's inquiry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Mr. Radic, it's close to 7.00. We'll finish for the day. I'd
11 like to instruct you not to speak with anyone about your testimony, the
12 testimony you have already given today and you're still about to give
14 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Radic out of the
16 Mr. Radic, you're expected to be here tomorrow at 9.00 in
17 Courtroom I. So we start tomorrow in the morning and not in the
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, Mr. Radic has been scheduled for four
22 hours. Could you give us an indication on how much time you would still
23 need tomorrow.
24 MR. TIEGER: I would be optimistic, I don't know how much time
25 I've used, but as the Court knows I've been pretty rigorous about coming
1 in under the time. I think we will with him finish in the first session
3 JUDGE ORIE: That could well bring us over four hours, but --
4 today we had a late start. We started at 2.30. We then spent some ten
5 to fifteen minutes on procedural issues and then the remaining time,
6 because of the late start of the last portion of today, we lost
7 altogether approximately 40 minutes of the four hours' court time we
8 usually have, apart from the last three minutes. So that would bring us
9 to three hours and twenty minutes now. If you had you would add the
10 whole of the first session tomorrow morning, that would bring another one
11 hour and a half, which would bring us to 4 hours and 5 minutes. But
12 Madam Registrar is always more precise in her ... Well, she is more
13 generous to you. Three hours and ten minutes in chief until now; one and
14 a half extra, that would bring us well over four hours.
15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour -- first of all, it's always a mistake
16 to compliment yourself in advance and I've certainly learned my lesson in
17 that respect. I'm trying to make the examination as efficient as
18 possible. I think I'm trying to indicate to the Court that it's going to
19 be in the reasonable range of that four-hour estimate. Even though - and
20 I would remind the Court - I think we tried to indicate it's quite
21 difficult under such circumstances to make an estimate.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. What I was seeking was to
23 encourage you to say what you've just said. If there are no further
24 issues, we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, Courtroom I.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.56 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of
2 October, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.