Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8440

1 Monday, 22 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. President. The Prosecutor

8 versus Momcilo Krajisnik, IT-00-39-T.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Ms. Edgerton, I see you're standing. You're together with

11 Mr. Hannis this morning and I see for the Defence there's Ms. Loukas and

12 Ms. Cmeric. Are you ready to call your next witness?

13 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: There are no protective measures effective --

15 MS. EDGERTON: None.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- in respect of this witness?

17 MS. EDGERTON: None.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And that would be Mr. Mehmed Music.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I also have received a Rule 90(F) summary. Has this

21 been discussed with the Defence?

22 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I've seen the Rule 89(F) summary. I can

23 indicate that there is an additional issue that I wish to raise at this

24 point, but it's not related to the 89(F) summary.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would it be -- since I do not know what the

Page 8441

1 issue is, would it be better to do it now or would it be better to do it

2 once the witness has been called?

3 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I can indicate what it is now.


5 MS. LOUKAS: Yet again, we have the, as it were, running sore of

6 the supplemental information sheet.


8 MS. LOUKAS: The supplemental information sheet arrived Sunday

9 afternoon. The witness has, of course, given four previous statements

10 over the last 12 years, and now suddenly the witness indicates that he saw

11 Mr. Krajisnik, Your Honour, at a particular detention facility. Now, Your

12 Honour, of course there's no provision for visits to the United Nations

13 Detention Unit on a Sunday, so I have not, of course, consulted with my

14 client in relation to this issue. I've asked Ms. Cmeric to give

15 Mr. Krajisnik, which she has done this morning, the relevant supplemental

16 information sheet. In those circumstances, I can indicate, Your Honour,

17 that at the end of the evidence in chief, the Defence certainly will not

18 be in a position to cross-examine this witness, in view of the very, very

19 late and new information.

20 So, Your Honour, I place that on the table.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It's good to know.

22 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I submit there are potentially two

23 alternatives, two alternatives being: Your Honours do not admit this

24 evidence, and the matter proceeds on the basis of the material that has

25 previously been indicated in relation to this witness; or, if Your Honours

Page 8442

1 are minded to allow the Prosecution to elicit this evidence, well, in

2 those circumstances, Your Honour, there are clearly -- there's a need for

3 a conference and there's the need for further investigation, because the

4 information also relates to another person, of course, who will need to be

5 consulted. So in those circumstances, Your Honour, I think it's very

6 clear in a the late arrival certainly places the Defence in a particularly

7 invidious position.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I'd like to have your comment and I

9 would like to add one question to the questions already raised by

10 Ms. Loukas. We're dealing with an 89(F) witness, and I would say, as a

11 general rule, we would not apply 89(F) -- to read out part of the written

12 statement or the summary of the written statement, if the evidence as such

13 would not qualify under 92 bis.

14 The introduction of the accused at -- in one of the camps, well,

15 would certainly put them in a quite different position from what is in

16 general terms presented until now by the Prosecution where there was no

17 direct presence of the accused in any detention facility, which I think in

18 terms of acts and conduct of the accused might be a totally different

19 matter. So, apart from the two suggestions Ms. Loukas made, I'd like to

20 add this question, and, of course, a the same time I'm wondering what's

21 happening. What's happening in my view is that at this moment the

22 Prosecution is relying on information given by witnesses well in advance

23 of the start of this trial, and perhaps even well in advance of the

24 presence of the accused before this Tribunal. But then to wait until the

25 very, very last day to update that information knowing that the testimony

Page 8443

1 of this witness is going to be presented in this case, and to leave these

2 very important matters up to the last Sunday before the witness arrives, I

3 would think that at least preparatory work should be done in the field

4 before so as to know what surprises could be expected. So that's also an

5 issue I'd like you to briefly address if you're in a position to do so.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, while we're awaiting -- Your Honour,

8 while we're awaiting a response --

9 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour. While we're awaiting a response,

11 there appears to be a problem with the LiveNote transcript. It seems to

12 have frozen on the computer screens. It seems to be running on the

13 laptops but not on the --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Even on the laptops, I see that it's not functioning

15 properly.

16 MS. LOUKAS: No. It's stopped on the laptops as well, yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could we therefore meanwhile ask the assistance of

18 the technicians to have the transcript running again. It gives the

19 Prosecution some additional time to consider the answers.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour. I just needed to consult

21 with Mr. Hannis to see whether there were any policy issues involved here

22 that I wasn't otherwise aware of. I think actually Your Honour is quite

23 correct. These statements as you can see particularly in this case --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, when the transcript is not -- no, when

25 the transcript is not running, we should perhaps at all refrain from

Page 8444

1 speaking.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I will see whether the transcript is

3 running again. It is not. It is not yet.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see it's now -- one second. I take it that

5 now the transcript is updated because the transcriber has repaired the

6 transcript. Yes. We're now there again. Is it also functioning on the

7 laptops as it is on mine? Yes. Then, Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Just to continue: As you can see, particularly in

9 this case, the statements are often taken years ago, and in the case of

10 Mr. Music, years before the accused before this Trial Chamber was even a

11 target. So at that point in time, and I being one of the interviewers,

12 I'm in a position to say I did not ask the witness anything about any

13 sightings of the Bosnian Serb leadership. Perhaps remiss of me at that

14 time, and in fact it's quite correct that these witnesses, for different

15 reasons, largely having to do with the completion strategy and budgetary

16 constraints, a number of these witnesses are not seen again as part of the

17 witness preparation until they're brought here by the victim witness unit.

18 So, in fact, it's not a great justification, Your Honour. Your assessment

19 of the situation is entirely accurate. I can only offer that yesterday,

20 on seeing Mr. Music for the first time in a year, which is a year ago

21 being the date I congratulated him after his having finished his testimony

22 in the Milosevic case, he offered for the first time that he had seen

23 Mr. Krajisnik and we simply did our utmost to disclose that information as

24 soon as we heard it ourselves.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's still surprising that if Mr. Music was

Page 8445

1 here one year ago, when it was known that he was on the witness list or at

2 least we could expect him on the witness list, in this case, that no

3 specific interview has been held with him in respect of the specifics of

4 this case.

5 MS. EDGERTON: With respect to his testimony in the Milosevic

6 case, I was not involved in that in terms of preparation or in any other

7 regard, Your Honour, so I can't speak to that. And I wasn't specifically

8 tasked at that time with any witness preparation for the Krajisnik case.

9 I only went to see him because of my personal acquaintance with him. And

10 perhaps I should indicate that, just a further consideration, that

11 Mr. Music was previously a 92 bis witness. He was upgraded to viva voce

12 witness, or in this case, 89(F) witness, because another Hadzici witness,

13 Zijad Okic, had passed away.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It's quite some coincidence, because under 92 bis, he

15 would not even have come to The Hague. You would have missed that

16 information that you're presenting now anyhow.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Quite so.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just confer with the other Judges for

19 one second.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has not received any of the supplementary

22 information; therefore, at this moment to give decisions is to ask, I

23 guess. Not admitting it would not be something to consider at this

24 moment. But at the same time, the Chamber fully understands the need for

25 further preparation for the cross-examination, even if that would involve

Page 8446

1 a recall of the witness, which of course we always try to avoid. And

2 therefore, I think the OTP is invited to see in one way or another -- I

3 mean, it's not the first time that we have these surprises at such short

4 notice. So therefore, for example, to see whether six or eight or ten

5 weeks in advance, that at least there will be a brief interview by whoever

6 it will be who acts on behalf of the OTP to see whether any further

7 surprises are to be expected. Ms. Loukas.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, one suggestion I would make, of

9 course, is that there is, in fact, not necessarily a need to wait until

10 the witness arrives in The Hague to conduct some sort of preliminary

11 interview. We do have the benefit of telephones, and it seems to me --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's what I'm suggesting. When I was talking

13 about six, eight, or ten weeks in advance, that it was -- whether it's by

14 telephone, whether it's by any other means, by any investigator who would

15 see whether there's any need for an update. That's what I suggested to

16 the OTP right away, in order to that similar surprises will occur.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed shocks sometimes, Your Honour.


19 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Just one further thing, Your Honour. With respect

22 to the information report, I can advise that I did e-mail the information

23 report to Mr. Zahar and Mr. De Hemptinne yesterday, along with to the

24 Defence counsel, so perhaps we could try and provide Your Honours with a

25 copy of that report on the first break.

Page 8447

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, although the Chamber is aware of -- the

3 Defence is aware of -- usually receives the written statements and just in

4 preparation of the oral testimony, in this case, the Chamber prefers to

5 hear any additional evidence orally to receive it in its direct form and

6 not to first read at this moment the new information you have elicited

7 from him.

8 Therefore, at this moment, if you're ready to start the

9 examination-in-chief of the witness, we'll ask Mr. Usher to escort the

10 witness into the courtroom.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Music. Do you hear me in a

14 language you understand? I take it from your answer that you do.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Music. Before you give evidence in

17 this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

18 solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and

19 nothing but the truth. The text is now handed out to you by the usher.

20 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Music. Please be seated.

Page 8448

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by Ms. Edgerton, counsel

3 for the Prosecution.

4 Ms. Edgerton, before we start, could I ask your attention for

5 paragraph 4 of what is presented to us as the 89(F) summary, paragraph 4,

6 second line. It reads: "The witness could see." And then follows a

7 number and then follows a qualification and then the word "around"

8 appears. If you -- if the witness could see 50 or 60. And if you are

9 summarising the statements of the witness, I think that it would be wise

10 that if words as we find them in this line are used, that you clearly

11 indicate that these are the words of the witness rather than anything

12 else. So, therefore, it could have been read: The witness could see 50

13 or 60 people. He calls. That makes it, I take it, more neutral.

14 MS. EDGERTON: Indeed, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

16 Examined by Ms. Edgerton:

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Music.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. I wonder if, before we go further, the witness could be given

20 copies now of the four statements he's variously provided.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They have been presented. Have they been

22 attributed an exhibit yet, or not yet?

23 MS. EDGERTON: Not at this time.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 8449

1 JUDGE ORIE: The B/C/S version will be presented to the witness.

2 MS. EDGERTON: And just in terms -- I don't know how Your Honour

3 wishes to proceed in this regard. In terms of the numbering of the

4 statements, the original versions of the 1993, 1994, and 1998 statements

5 are in B/C/S; the original version of the 1997 statement is in English.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The original language gets the number without

7 a ".1". So that means that for the first statements, the English

8 translation will get a ".1". As far as the 1997 statements are concerned,

9 there the B/C/S version is the ".1" version.

10 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.


12 Q. Now, Mr. Music, I see you have before you copies in your own

13 language of four documents, one dating from 1993, one from 1994, one from

14 1997, and one from 1998. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Have you had an opportunity recently to review those documents in

17 detail?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you recognise those documents?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Are those documents copies of statements that you've given on four

22 separate occasions to the Bosnian authorities and representatives of the

23 ICTY?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you reviewed those documents, did you find them to be true to

Page 8450

1 the best of your knowledge and recollection?

2 A. There were some corrections made in two places, I think, two or

3 three places. There were printing mistakes, typing errors. And something

4 that I added which I remembered later.

5 Q. Now, with respect to those corrections which you asked me to make

6 on the record today, perhaps I could deal with them, and they both relate

7 to the statement from 1997, English -- well, paragraph number 43. You

8 wish to correct a place-name set out in the second-to-last line of

9 paragraph 43. The place-name, which presently reads "Rastovica" you said

10 should read "Rastelica"; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the second correction, as I have noted here, appears in

13 paragraph 76, the sentence which in English reads: "I never saw that

14 group who had beaten us in the corridor again." I understand from you

15 that the version in your language is missing the "G" at the beginning of

16 the word "group." Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You asked me to have those corrections made on the record?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, leaving aside for the moment the information which you

21 remembered, which we'll deal with later, can you now confirm that these

22 statements you have before you are copies of your statements, which are

23 true to the best of your knowledge and recollection?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I wonder, then, Your Honour, if I could ask these documents

Page 8451

1 receive the appropriate exhibit numbers.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. The first document

4 dated 18th of April, 1993, will then receive the reference P407/A. As it

5 is a translation, it will have a dot 1. The second document, dated the

6 same date, 18th of April, 1993, will receive the reference P407/A, as it

7 is the original. The document dated 23rd of March, 1994 is a translation,

8 will receive the P407/B.1.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, I think we usually don't use the

10 slashes, so let's just make it 407A and 407A.1. Now the same for P407B.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. I apologise for this.

12 I then go to the document 23rd of March, 1994, receive the reference

13 P407B, as it is the original. The document dated 26th of June, 1997,

14 witness statement, will receive the reference P407C. The document dated

15 the same date will receive the reference P407C.1, as it is a translation

16 of the previous one. The document dated 21st of February, 1998 will

17 receive the reference P407D.1, as it is a translation. The document dated

18 the same date, 21st of February, 1998, will receive the reference P407D,

19 as it is the original.

20 Thank you, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Now, with the Trial Chamber's permission, and Mr. Music's

24 permission, I'd like to read in a summary of the evidence as set out in

25 the statements which are now filed as Exhibit number -- collectively filed

Page 8452

1 as Exhibit number 407.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

3 MS. EDGERTON: The witness, Mr. Mehmed Music, is a Muslim from

4 Donji Hadzici, Hadzici municipality. Prior to the outbreak of war, he

5 lived in the Muslim settlement of Musici. Around the beginning of March

6 1992, the witness was able to see Serbs in former JNA uniforms climbing

7 the hills around a Serb village carrying guns and ammunition to the peaks

8 around them. They were coming from a barracks in Blazuj. The Muslims

9 were asked in late April 1992 to surrender their weapons. In early May,

10 after the outbreak of hostilities in the region of Hadzici, bullets,

11 dumdum bullets, tracers, and flares were fired into the village of Musici.

12 From 15 May, shells were fired at the village.

13 On 17 or 18 May, on two separate occasions, local Serbs again

14 urged the Muslim villagers to surrender their weapons, the second time

15 calling through a megaphone, saying they would burn the village if they

16 failed to surrender. Villagers refused to surrender their weapons. The

17 village was shelled that evening, and the shelling lasted for three days.

18 Around noon on 20 May 1992, Serbs forces surrounded Musici and

19 entered the village. They were supported by two anti-aircraft guns. The

20 witness was in his house at the time with several others. Two local Serbs

21 known to the witness, armed with automatic rifles and wearing former JNA

22 uniforms entered the house and held those present at gunpoint. The

23 witness believes these Serbs to have been members of the military police.

24 14 Muslim males from Musici, including the witness, were gathered

25 in front of a house. The witness could see 50 or 60 people he calls

Page 8453

1 Chetniks around. Outside the house, the witness saw the bodies of three

2 males from Musici. One of the witness's brothers, Miralem, was among this

3 group of 14 captured men. Their captors marched him around the

4 settlement, calling people to surrender.

5 The 14 men from Musici were taken under guard to the primary

6 school in Hadzici, and from there to the garage of the Hadzici Municipal

7 Assembly building. Interrogations of the detainees began immediately,

8 taking place in the municipality building itself.

9 The witness was detained in this garage for six days, during which

10 time additional detainees were brought in, all Muslim. Eventually there

11 came to be 47 people in this garage. On the third day of his detention,

12 the witness was taken with the other men from Musici to load ammunition

13 from the former -- pardon, me. From the JNA ammunition store in

14 Zunovnica. Another group of detainees from the Hadzici KSIRC (culture,

15 sports, and recreational centre) was brought there for the task.

16 On the sixth day of his detention, the witness was taken with all

17 but three of the men from Musici to the KSIRC. There were approximately

18 60 Muslim men there at that time, and one woman. The witness recognised

19 the head of the detention facility in the KSIRC to be Momo Vujovic. He

20 knew the guards as well.

21 The witness saw detainees at the KSIRC beaten and mistreated. On

22 the second day of Bajram, the witness saw people who were identified to

23 him as Arkanovci come into the sports hall. They wore camouflage uniforms

24 and gloves which had the fingertips cut off. Their faces were painted

25 black. A woman was among this group, who the witness recognised as being

Page 8454

1 from Ilidza. He saw her sexually abuse two of the male detainees, in one

2 case ordering a prisoner to perform fellatio on another. The witness saw

3 members of this group chase one Muslim male around the inside of the hall

4 with a flag-pole. They beat him, as well as other prisoners who the

5 witness knew.

6 By 22 June, there came to be 282 detainees in the part of the

7 sports hall where the witness was held, all male. On or around 22 June

8 1992, the detainees were transferred by bus to Kula prison. There, the

9 buses were boarded by people who the witness describes as Chetniks, who

10 beat the prisoners. After the beating, the buses went to the Slavisa

11 Vajner Cica barracks in Lukavica.

12 All the men were taken from the buses and into the barracks

13 building. All the way to the barracks and up a flight of stairs, the

14 prisoners had to run a gauntlet of persons who the witness refers to as

15 Chetniks, and were beaten as they ran. The prisoners were put into two

16 rooms. The witness saw prisoners called out by name from the room for

17 interrogations, returning beaten. They heard the screams of one prisoner

18 and then a shot. This prisoner didn't return. These beatings lasted

19 until about 3.00 a.m. The next morning, all of the 280 men were moved

20 into one room at another part of the barracks.

21 An army officer took a list and called out 48 names from among the

22 detainees. The witness believed he heard his name called out as the 48th

23 person. As he got to the door, he had to run slowly along a corridor

24 through a zigzag gauntlet of men wearing red berets. He was brutally

25 beaten and cursed. From the way the men in red berets spoke, the witness

Page 8455

1 could tell they were not from there. Through the corridor, the witness

2 came upon a man lying down, covered in blood. They told him to pick him

3 up. He saw it was his brother, and carried him to the next room.

4 In the next room, the witness saw the prisoners who will be called

5 lined up against three walls, and in the middle of the room there was a

6 desk with three Serb officers. They asked the witness who he was and the

7 witness explained why he had come. The witness saw these men had a large

8 list of people, and the names they had called out were circled in red.

9 The witness was told his name was not on the list and to get out. He ran

10 back through the gauntlet to what remained of the original group of

11 detainees, beaten again. The witness has never seen any of the group of

12 47 men (including his brother) since that time.

13 After some time, another group came in to beat the remaining

14 prisoners. The prisoners were forced to sing Serb songs. The witness

15 remained in Lukavica for three days, but the prisoners were still beaten

16 when being taken to the toilet.

17 On the third day, the witness and approximately 232 other

18 detainees were taken by bus to Kula.

19 At Kula, the prisoners were divided into two rooms. Conditions

20 were cramped. There was poor sanitation. While detained at Kula, the

21 witness was interrogated by a man named Predrag Ceranic. Eventually, the

22 detainees were separated into several rooms with slightly better

23 conditions. On 30 June 1992, all persons born before 1936 were ordered to

24 leave. 75 detainees of the approximately 280 were immediately released at

25 the Vrbanja bridge in Sarajevo.

Page 8456

1 On 23 July 1992, the witness and five other men were called out

2 and told they were going to be exchanged. An UNPROFOR vehicle came to

3 pick them up. At Ilidza, the vehicle was stopped and the witness and one

4 other detainee were told to step out. They were taken to a cell in the

5 building of the Ilidza public security station. There were no windows in

6 this cell. The witness was housed in this cell until 8th of September,

7 1992. The head of the station was Tihomir Glavas. During his detention

8 at the Ilidza police station, one of the policeman told the witness they

9 had three different forces there: National, city, and a special

10 intervention force. The witness saw weekend Chetniks there who had come

11 from Serbia and Montenegro.

12 On 8th of September, following two abortive exchange attempts, the

13 witness was transferred to the KSIRC, where there were 500 detainees, men,

14 women, children, and elderly. Some ten days later, all women, children,

15 and some of the elderly men were released so that out of 500 detainees,

16 only 84 remained, including the witness.

17 On 23 October, the witness and approximately 70 other detainees

18 were transferred by bus from Hadzici to the Svrake camp. There were

19 approximately 102 prisoners already there. The witness remained at Svrake

20 until 5 November 1992.

21 That concludes the summary.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton. I take it you have

23 additional questions to the witness in chief.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

Page 8457


2 Q. Now, Mr. Music, having read out this summary, I'd now like to ask

3 you some questions, largely relating to clarifications or additional

4 details based on the information contained in those four statements you

5 have before you.

6 A. Yes. Go ahead.

7 Q. First, then, relating to the first paragraphs of these statements,

8 you talk about your village of Musici and its location. At this time, I'd

9 like to show you a map, which you prepared yesterday.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour. And do

11 you have a copy of the map, Mr. Registrar? If we could have this map

12 marked with an exhibit number.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, the exhibit number for this map

15 will be P408. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.


18 Q. On this map, you made some markings yesterday.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And could you tell us what you've marked at point number 1 on the

21 map.

22 A. Number 1 indicates my village in Hadzici.

23 Q. Now, just moving on further in your statements: In paragraph 7

24 and 8 of your statement to the Tribunal, you mention a camp called Catina

25 Bara in Blazuj. Could you point out, or have you been able to point out

Page 8458

1 the location called Blazuj on the map?

2 A. Blazuj is number 2. That was the barracks in Blazuj, actually.

3 And for as long as I've been alive, the barracks have been there, with the

4 JNA soldiers there. Now, after 1991, in the autumn, the reservists came

5 in there from Montenegro and Serbia. I would see them personally. In our

6 fields and meadows, above my village, they were drawing maps, and on one

7 occasion we actually --

8 Q. That was an occasion you've spoken about in your -- in a couple of

9 your statements; isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, in your statement from 1993, you mention being taken to

12 Zunovnica, to load ammunition from the weapons store there. Have you been

13 able to mark the location of Zunovnica on that map?

14 A. Number 3.

15 Q. What kind of weapons were you loading?

16 A. Grenades, infantry weapons, mines, that kind of thing, small arms,

17 infantry arms. And we loaded that up from the last warehouses, because

18 our people, the Bosniaks, stormed the area from Brezovaca and took this

19 away. So they were withdrawing that equipment from the central point in

20 the barracks, where they had concrete hangars. So we took -- drove the

21 trucks in there and loaded and unloaded.

22 Q. You were under guard while you were offloading that ammunition; is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And how were the guards dressed?

Page 8459

1 A. Their police wore camouflage uniforms, olive-green ones. The rest

2 of them had the JNA-type uniform, army equipment.

3 Q. Now -- thank you. Now, leaving that map aside for a time, and

4 going back both in time chronologically to the beginning of your

5 statements and period before the outbreak of war. You mentioned the visit

6 of one neighbour, Goran Todorovic, to your settlement to ask for a

7 surrender. Now, what ethnicity was Todorovic?

8 A. I apologise. It's not Goran, but Gavro, Gavro Todorovic, and he

9 was a Serb. Up until the war, we were great friends, so that I trusted

10 him. I had more trust and confidence in him than some of my family

11 members. But due to force of circumstance, he seemed to change and then

12 he didn't want to see me any more, not only me, but my relatives, my

13 brothers, and all the other neighbours.

14 Q. Mr. Music just tell me: How was Mr. Todorovic dressed at the time

15 he visited you? What was he wearing?

16 A. He was wearing the olive-green JNA-type uniform. But also

17 stationed there was a telephone from -- brought in from Blazuj to his

18 house, in the autumn. And he didn't deny that. He told us that that was

19 the case. And he also told us not to go out once.

20 Q. Now, if I could just interrupt you, Mr. Music. This is

21 information that you've given to us in your statement from 1997; isn't

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And these are statements which are now evidence, exhibits before

25 the Trial Chamber, and they're aware of the content of these statements

Page 8460

1 and they'll be able to read them and study them, and these questions are

2 just by way of clarification to what you've said previously.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Just to move further now. You mention Djukanovic came to ask for

5 surrender; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How was he dressed at the time?

8 A. He wore the same thing, the olive-green uniform, and he had a

9 white band on his arm.

10 Q. Now, you also talk about one Dragan Pusara calling for surrender

11 through a megaphone; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How do you know it was Pusara who was calling for surrender?

14 A. Well, I saw him. It was about a hundred metres away as the crow

15 flies. And as we knew that he was a Vojvoda and led all those men, all

16 the ones that took part in the attack on the village and the torching of

17 the village and so on, that's how. And I also had some binoculars and was

18 able to look through them. I was a hunter for 50 years, so I was able to

19 monitor his movements with those binoculars and his arming and so on. And

20 we were powerless to do anything to stop him.

21 Q. Now, the -- Djukanovic and Pusara are both ethnic Serbs; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Two men named Elcic who came into your home to detain you, what's

25 their ethnicity?

Page 8461

1 A. They were also Serbs. And their mother came from the village, so

2 I knew them, although Tomo worked in the Coca-Cola factory with me for

3 many years.

4 Q. Now, you talk about, in paragraph 3 of your 1993 and 1998

5 statement, and paragraph 28 of your ICTY statement, you talk about your

6 capture, and you describe your capture by a large group of people. You

7 put the number of captors at between 50 and 60. Now, if we could just

8 talk about that group of people for a minute. Could you tell us whether

9 they were in uniform or in civilian clothes, and if they were in uniform,

10 what kind of uniform were they wearing?

11 A. Their police wore camouflage uniform, the olive-green type,

12 whereas all the support and the rest of the police force wore the JNA

13 uniforms and they had helmets too, whereas the other policemen did not

14 have helmets.

15 Q. Among those captors, you mention an individual by the name of Rade

16 Veselinovic. What was his ethnicity?

17 A. He was a Serb by ethnicity, and he was a hauler, a transporter, up

18 until the war. And he provoked me most during the time I spent at

19 Hadzici, and he provoked my wife as well.

20 Q. Now, you mention seeing the bodies of three men by the house of

21 Alija Music. Were these three men any close family relation to you?

22 A. Alija Music and Dervis Music were uncles. They were my father's

23 brothers. And Fadil, he was my father's cousin. So they were all related

24 in one way or another.

25 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to provide you and the Trial Chamber with

Page 8462

1 a photograph bearing the number 00520200-35. If it could receive an

2 exhibit number.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: This document will have the reference P409,

5 Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.


9 Q. Mr. Music, you saw that photograph yesterday; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recognise what you see in the picture before you?

12 A. That is the Municipal Assembly now. We were detained in the first

13 garage here, the one that's black. That's where I stayed. 47 men were

14 there while I was there. That's where we were examined. You see where

15 the green car is, that window.

16 Q. Thank you. I was --

17 A. You're welcome.

18 Q. Mr. Music, I was just trying to ask you -- you're pointing with

19 your pen, and the Trial Chamber is not in a position to see what you're

20 pointing to. I wonder if you can describe what you're pointing to. I

21 wonder if we could -- are we in a position to put it on the ELMO?

22 JUDGE ORIE: If we put it on the ELMO, we can follow the witness

23 when he points at something, and if you would then describe that,

24 Ms. Edgerton.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

Page 8463

1 Q. Now, Mr. Music, with the pointer, could you show the Trial Chamber

2 where you were detained.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Music, you're invited to point at it on the

4 ELMO so that we can see it on our screen.

5 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

6 MS. EDGERTON: Indicating the garage door to the far right.

7 Q. And Mr. Music, at the point where I interrupted you, you mentioned

8 something about a green car. What were you speaking about?

9 A. They were questioning me here, where this window is. That's where

10 we were beaten and things like that. And now you see this window here?

11 That's where the toilet was. When people would enter the door -- through

12 the door here, then that's where they'd beat us. Anyway, they wanted to.

13 They beat Mujcic [phoen] the most. I think they questioned him about ten

14 times. When we went to Lukavica, and that's what he told me, since he had

15 a business of his own, they kept asking for money and things like that.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Music, does this photo of this building you call the

17 Municipal Assembly building look like the building as it did in May 1992?

18 A. No. No. It didn't burn then. When the Dayton Agreement was

19 signed, as they were leaving, they torched it. See? It was burned here,

20 and it looked like this before. But it didn't look like this then. They

21 had a normal roof and windows and doors and things like that.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When the witness was pointing, Ms. Edgerton,

23 the place where he was beaten, he was pointing at the two openings in the

24 wall directly behind the white and the green car.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Thank you.

Page 8464

1 Q. Thank you. Now, leaving that photo aside and moving on to another

2 photo, which I'd ask be given an exhibit number.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Just before we move on from that photo, Your Honour,

4 perhaps an indication from the Prosecution as to when the photograph was

5 taken.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there is a date on it, Ms. Loukas, but unless

7 there's any reason to believe it was not taken on the 16th of June, 1997

8 then ...

9 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Because often with these things the

10 correct date is not on the photograph. You cannot necessarily trust the

11 computer generated aspect on the bottom of the photograph.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is there -- Ms. Edgerton.

13 MS. EDGERTON: It was taken on the 16th of June, 1997, and you see

14 me at the bottom right-hand corner of the picture wearing a long red

15 skirt.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hadn't noticed that yet.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Nor had I, Your Honour. I don't think we've got

18 Ms. Edgerton on the -- well, I can't recognise her.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That's a different matter. But this is -- although

20 it's not evidence, it's firsthand information.

21 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

22 MS. EDGERTON: If we could -- we'll remove that photo and put

23 another photo on the ELMO after it receives an exhibit number. The next

24 one bears the ERN number 00500200-20, also taken on the same date.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it, Mr. Registrar, that this will be

Page 8465

1 P410.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

4 Please proceed.


6 Q. Mr. Music, now looking tell next photograph on the ELMO, you had

7 an opportunity to view that photograph yesterday; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you tell us what you see in front of you.

10 A. The sports hall where I was detained, together with my neighbours,

11 friends, relatives, and so on.

12 Q. Now, at the moment you have your pointer on the -- what looks like

13 an entry way to the bottom right-hand side. Could you point to the

14 location or the entry way to the area where you were detained.

15 A. The entry way was here, so that no one could run away. As for the

16 inside, it's all in there, yes. But I never told you this: In September,

17 towards the end of September, they threw shells here, see? You can see

18 the holes here. We were hit by shells, and 20 people were wounded. I

19 avoided all contacts, because I was the only survivor among all the

20 families that were brought to these camps. But see the shell marks here?

21 I never told you about that. I noticed it just now. So all the glass was

22 shattered then, and then we had to clean it. We were lying on the

23 concrete floors. It was very cold. It rained. As for the interior, you

24 know what it's like. It's a sports hall, basketball can be played there.

25 I cannot give you the exact number of metres, how big a basketball hall

Page 8466

1 should be, but I'm sure that 1.000 people went through there. Because it

2 changed. Some Serbs were taken away, who had money and friends and who

3 paid for getting out. I have a neighbour, you see --

4 Q. If I could just stop you there. I note that for the record the

5 witness is pointing to what appears to be damage to the roof of the

6 building on the top right-hand corner.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whereas he was pointing to the right portion,

8 just right from the middle of the photograph and he pointed at the entry

9 used, but also moved sometimes the pointer to the left part of what seems

10 to be an entrance. Please proceed.


12 Q. Now, Mr. Music, if we could leave that aside and move on further

13 in clarifying your previous evidence or the evidence in your statements,

14 I'd like to talk about your transfer into the Sarajevo area. You

15 mentioned you drove by -- you were driven by bus. Could you tell me if

16 the drivers of the bus, buses, were in uniform or not, as far as you could

17 see.

18 A. Yes, in olive-green/grey uniforms of the JNA.

19 Q. Now, once you had arrived at the gate to Kula prison, you talk

20 about people boarding the bus and beating the prisoners. Were these

21 people in uniform?

22 A. Yes. They had camouflage uniforms. When we came to the Kula

23 gate, that's where we were supposed to be put up. I have no idea why they

24 didn't let us -- I don't know whether the warden was there or not. Some

25 people went missing too. But they beat us, and then they threw ammunition

Page 8467

1 and they said: Look, balijas have ammunition. My father-in-law sat on

2 the first seat and I was in the back. My father-in-law was born in 1926,

3 so he participated in the other big war before that. And you can imagine

4 what it was like. They beat us. They stubbed out cigarettes on our necks

5 and things like that. You can imagine what it was like. Then there were

6 some people on the Bosnian side, Dobrinja. We stayed there for an hour or

7 two or whatever. It seemed like eternity to me. I was praying to God

8 that they kill us and that they get it over with. And then -- yes.

9 Q. These are difficult times that you're recalling, I know, and I

10 apologise, but I feel I ought to remind you again that this is something

11 you've spoken about previously in your statements and these are now

12 exhibits with the Trial Chamber, and they do have that evidence in front

13 of them.

14 What I'd like to ask you about next, if I could, is when you speak

15 about arriving in the Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks, you mention you were

16 beaten by a gauntlet as you were leaving the bus, entering the barracks

17 building, and including up the stairs. Do you recall whether this

18 gauntlet of people were wearing uniform at all?

19 A. They all wore uniforms, but we didn't dare look. We were supposed

20 to keep our hands on the backs of our heads and we were supposed to keep

21 running. Then they entered the dormitories and they beat us when we went

22 to the toilets. They used different objects to beat us. So I remember

23 that a neighbour asked if he could go and use the toilet too, and I just

24 heard the guard hit him on the back. And he fell. I heard the blow. I

25 don't know his name or surname.

Page 8468

1 Q. Can I ask you about the gauntlet --

2 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry to interrupt at this point, but I think it

3 would be very useful, in view of the fact that we're going through this

4 process on an 89(F) basis of attempting to elucidate or clarify four

5 different statements. I think for future reference it might be useful to

6 actually mention on the transcript which particular paragraphs we are

7 currently elucidating or clarifying.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yell. I see Ms. Edgerton is nodding so she'll take

9 your suggestion.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Of course I can do that. That previously -- the

11 point at which we're at now deals or arises from or relates to paragraph 6

12 of the statement from 1993 and paragraph 62 of the ICTY statement. And

13 I'm dealing with the gauntlet that the witness had to run as he left the

14 bus and went into the barracks building and up the stairs.



17 Q. Mr. Music, do you recall hearing anybody in this gauntlet speak as

18 you were running past?

19 A. They were swearing at us, cursing our balija mothers. This is

20 what you get for Alija's state. There were all sorts of provocations like

21 that.

22 Q. Do you remember noticing anything in particular about their accent

23 at that time?

24 A. I stated that. When they called out my name, I recognised their

25 accents as coming from Serbia and Montenegro, because for 18 months I did

Page 8469

1 my service in Serbia, in Nis, to be precise. And then, while I stayed in

2 Germany for five years, I had people from there working with me, and then

3 also later on when I worked for Coca-Cola, I worked with people from

4 Serbia and Montenegro. And then while I was still working for Coca-Cola,

5 I travelled to Serbia and Montenegro and back. So I'm familiar with the

6 accent, yes.

7 Q. Now, the witness is actually moved on to paragraph 7 of the 1993

8 statement, paragraphs 3 and 4 of the 1994, 70 to 73 of the ICTY statement,

9 and 5 of the 1998 statement. He's talking about the calling out of the 48

10 prisoners in Lukavica barracks.

11 Now, Mr. Music, in the paragraph numbers that I've just stated,

12 you describe that gauntlet and say that the people in the gauntlet were

13 wearing red berets; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did you have a chance to notice what kind of uniforms they

16 were wearing?

17 A. They all wore camouflage uniforms, red berets, judging by the way

18 they spoke and by their accents, it's not that I'm 100 per cent sure; I'm

19 1.000 per cent sure that they were from Serbia. They were the members of

20 the Special Forces from Nis, the Nis specialists. I mentioned that in my

21 previous statement in December last year.

22 Q. Now, in paragraph 7 of your 1993 statement, paragraph 4 of your

23 1994 statement, and 74 of your statement to the Tribunal, you talk about

24 arriving in the next room and seeing three officers sitting at a desk. I'd

25 like to know what led you to the conclusion that these were officers.

Page 8470

1 A. Well, you see, they had ranks, they all wore uniforms. Since I

2 recognised on my left-hand side, as I walked in, I was not supposed to put

3 my head up, but there was a lot of blood all over. But on the left-hand

4 side I did see my brother and I had to put my hands up and I was supposed

5 to look only in front of me. The man from Serbia had a kind of Lika cap

6 with a coat of arms, and I recognised him as being from Serbia. He said:

7 Bre, where are you from? And then I said where I was from. And he swore

8 at my mother. He cursed my mother, and then he said: Where are your

9 sons? At the front line? And I said I have no sons. I have only

10 daughters. And he said: What is this? We were supposed to see this man

11 who had sons. And they confused me with my brother. Whereas my brother

12 stayed at home with his retarded son. You can find that in my statement.

13 It was this Montenegrin who was interrogating me, whereas the Serb who was

14 with me, or rather with us, I don't know where he was from, but he did not

15 mistreat me. And this man from Serbia hit me and --

16 Q. Mr. Music, that's right. We can find that in your previous

17 statement. And just to clarify --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- something further. I note at page 30, line 3 of the

20 transcript, Mr. Music is referring to his statement in December of last

21 year. That's when he testified --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I take it his testimony in the Milosevic case.

23 MS. EDGERTON: Quite so.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Quite so.

Page 8471

1 Q. I'd like to move on now to paragraph 84, Mr. Music, of your

2 statement to the Tribunal. And that's where you mention seeing or meeting

3 a man who you identify as Slobodan Avlijas. Could you clarify for us

4 where you saw Mr. Avlijas?

5 A. Mr. Avlijas, I saw him while I was in Kula. He came to my room,

6 since Semsic was a colleague of his, he graduated from law school together

7 with him, so he came to visit him. And he then gave him a pack of

8 cigarettes then, some kind of Serbian cigarettes, and he also gave him

9 some Serb money, because that was the first time I saw it. And this money

10 was changed at the time, so that was the first time I saw this money while

11 I was in camp. And then he also took him out for coffee, so I saw him on

12 that occasion. Later on I saw him yet again when I was on the commission

13 for exchanges. Masovic [phoen] asked him about these people these 47

14 people who were missing. He said: Avlijas, where are these people? And

15 then he said: Well, look, Amor, I tell you. But I was not there at all.

16 I was in Bijeljina. And when I challenged that, when I said on which day

17 he came there and what he did and all that, then he said: Well --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, the question to you was: Could you

19 clarify for us where you saw Mr. Avlijas. I fully understand that you

20 would like to tell all of the story you know. We have access to that

21 already in your written statements. If we would hear the stories of

22 everyone who has experienced those times, it would take us another 10 to

23 20 years. I hope that you do understand. And that's the reason why this

24 Tribunal has decided that it will allow the parties also to give written

25 statements. And of course you're telling us a lot of details.

Page 8472

1 Ms. Edgerton might be interested in very specific details. So if you

2 would please very carefully listen to her questions and then specifically

3 answer to the details she thinks are most relevant at this moment. I'm

4 not saying that the others are irrelevant or that they are less important

5 for you, but we are under some time restraint. So may I invite you to

6 focus on exactly what Ms. Edgerton asks you. Please proceed, Ms.

7 Edgerton.


9 Q. Mr. Music, you were able to recognise Mr. Avlijas because you knew

10 him personally, you had known him from before the war; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us what his occupation was before the war?

13 A. He was a judge at the municipality in Hadzici. And he lived on

14 the same floor where my father-in-law lives, in the building where the TO

15 was, across the street from the municipality building that you showed me.

16 It was less than a hundred metres away.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, I'm again going to ask you. The question

18 was what the occupation of Mr. Avlijas was. You answered that by saying

19 that he was a judge at the municipality in Hadzici, and then you started

20 telling us where he was living, et cetera, et cetera, where Ms. Edgerton

21 only asked you at this moment what his profession was. So could I again

22 ask you to focus specifically on those details asked by Ms. Edgerton.

23 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

24 MS. EDGERTON: That having been answered, the last question having

25 been answered in that way, he effectively anticipated my next question.

Page 8473

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it's a bit difficult, of course. You'll

2 understand if we give guidance to the witness how to respond to your

3 questions, that even it would be your next question he should first wait

4 until that question is put to him. Please proceed.

5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. At this moment, Your Honour, what I

6 would like to do is play two -- two telephone intercepts, both of which

7 the witness listened to yesterday in their entirety, one of which was

8 partially played previously before this court. I'm just looking at the

9 time. I think --

10 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would it approximately take you?

11 MS. EDGERTON: I think we would have time to play the first one

12 all the way through and then maybe break for the second one. And I should

13 indicate, Your Honour, in line with the guidance you had previously given

14 as regards these intercepts, I won't be asking the witness to offer

15 contextual comments on these intercepts. It's merely the Prosecution's

16 position that these intercepts relate to some of the incidents the witness

17 has spoken about in his previous statements and detailed somewhat in his

18 testimony. So we would have time if we began now to play one in its

19 entirety. I think it might be --

20 JUDGE ORIE: But I take it that you'll put some questions to the

21 witness at least.


23 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be wise to play one intercept first. Would

24 you then immediately ask questions about it? Because otherwise it might

25 not be fresh in his memory any more if we are half an hour later. So I

Page 8474

1 leave it up to you. If you say I can deal with the first intercept, then

2 ask a few questions, if that could be done, well, let's say within the

3 next 12 minutes, then it's fine.

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 MS. EDGERTON: I think playing the first one might push us over

6 the time, Your Honour, actually.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then perhaps play both of them after the break.

8 We'll then now first have a break until 10 minutes to 11.00, if that would

9 be convenient.

10 Mr. Music, we'll have a break of some 25 minutes. We'll adjourn,

11 unless you, Mr. Hannis, would -- you are standing. No, not to address the

12 Court. We'll adjourn until 10 minutes to 11.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I think what we'll do now is we'll

17 proceed with the intercepts, one after the other, with a brief pause after

18 the first. Now, the first intercept to be played was -- and Ms. Javier

19 can correct me if I'm mistaken, but the first intercept to be played was

20 previously played in part before this Trial Chamber and the CD received an

21 exhibit number and that's P292. So in other words, the whole intercept

22 has already been made an exhibit, but the Trial Chamber has only heard an

23 extract from it, and we propose to play the intercept in its entirety,

24 using the same number, obviously. And I would ask that the witness be

25 given a B/C/S copy of the transcript, please, so he can follow along.

Page 8475

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there's no objection to that procedure.

2 We'll have to consider whether or not to give a new exhibit number to the

3 transcript of this intercept or whether that appears sufficiently in

4 the -- to say the 209 series.

5 MS. EDGERTON: The 292 series, that would be.

6 JUDGE ORIE: 292, yes. Sorry. We'll deal with that at a later

7 moment. Please proceed.

8 MS. EDGERTON: All right.

9 Q. Mr. Music, yesterday, with Mr. Hannis and myself, you listened to

10 two intercepted conversations. I'm going to play those conversations for

11 you again in sequence, one after the other. And I'd ask you to follow

12 along on the transcript in front of you as best you can, please. The

13 first conversation is dated 26 June 1992, between Momcilo Krajisnik and

14 Momcilo Mandic.

15 [Intercept played]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, we do not hear anything, neither do we

17 receive any translation which is --

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are not getting any sound,

19 so --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. Ms. Edgerton, could we please

21 restart, because the interpreters get no original B/C/S sound.

22 [Intercept played]

23 MS. EDGERTON: I see from the booth the interpreters aren't

24 receiving any sound.

25 THE INTERPRETER: No sound, Your Honour. Now we can hear the

Page 8476

1 sound but it's not discernible.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I -- in the beginning I hear the same

3 as you do before you start translating, and I do understand that there's

4 no start of any translation.

5 MS. EDGERTON: The technician is coming in, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Do we know what the problem is, which is mainly the

7 first step to the solution?

8 MS. EDGERTON: I have no idea what the problem is, Your Honour,

9 but while it would have been convenient, in fact, appropriate, to play the

10 intercepts at this interval because they fit within the chronology of the

11 evidence so far, we could move on and come back to them. It might be

12 somewhat confusing for the witness, but we could do that for the sake of

13 time.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Music, since we have some technical

15 difficulties in playing the intercept, Ms. Edgerton moves now to another

16 subject. But we'll come back to this later.

17 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. And failing the technician being able to

19 achieve something, we'll try and work with the transcript, but I'd prefer

20 just to proceed for now and see if they can fix this problem.

21 Q. At this point, Mr. Music, I'd like to move forward in the

22 chronology of what took place in 1992 to the point at which you were taken

23 to the police station in Ilidza, and that principally begins at around

24 paragraph 93 and onward from the ICTY statement. And I'd like to deal

25 with the new information that you told us about over the course of the

Page 8477

1 weekend.

2 Now, Mr. Music, you've described in your statements that you were

3 held with a small number of other detainees in a cell in the police

4 station in Ilidza; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, from this cell, I understand that you had some small --

7 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to this, I would be

8 submitting it's not appropriate for any further leading in view of the

9 nature of the material sought to be elicited.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, could you do your utmost best, and

11 otherwise, Ms. Loukas will remind you not to lead in this respect.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Fine.

13 Q. Mr. Music, could you tell us where this cell was located in the

14 police station.

15 A. The cell in the police station at Ilidza was located in the middle

16 of this building. As you go up to the chief on the floor above. So I

17 could see everybody coming in and out, going up to the first floor. It

18 was 25 times 20, a steel door. There was a toilet there.

19 Q. Sorry, Mr. Music. What was 25 times 20, please?

20 A. The opening in the middle of the door, to allow air to come in. We

21 had no windows, so this was a form of ventilation. And if they closed

22 this partition, this small window, then we would be suffocating inside.

23 The premises was used as a toilet previously, but as it was being used as

24 a prison, there was sometimes two of us and as many as 12 of us at times.

25 Q. So if you could just clarify, then. There was a door to this cell

Page 8478

1 with an opening. And where did that door look out onto?

2 A. You looked out onto the staircase and the entrance and exit to all

3 the offices in the police station on the floor, on that storey. So I was

4 able to see all the comings and goings, who was coming in and going out.

5 On many occasions I saw many people I knew from Hadzici, but we weren't

6 allowed to say anything to them because they kept the fact that this was

7 in fact a camp confidential, a secret.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, again, the question was: Where did the

9 door look out onto? You answered that question, and then you continued to

10 give us information which -- well, may be relevant, but whether or not, if

11 you would first wait for the next question by Ms. Edgerton and then we'll

12 see what she'd like to know. Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.


14 Q. Just in terms of the opening that you're describing in this door,

15 you've mentioned 25 times 20 but I see you're holding your hands up. Are

16 you demonstrating for the Trial Chamber the size of the opening in the

17 door?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Now, you've said that this door looked out onto the staircase and

20 the entrance and exit to all the offices in the police station; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. On --

24 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment. I've lost my train

25 of thought.

Page 8479

1 Q. Now, with that description of the cell and the viewpoint, could

2 you tell us about the day in which you saw the accused at the police

3 station in Ilidza.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, you were inviting not to lead. I have

5 never heard in my whole life a more leading question than this one.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, then would you permit the question

7 whether or not he has ever seen the accused during the course of his

8 detention in Ilidza?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Especially in view of the, I would say, of the view

10 of the surprise, wouldn't it be proper to ask whether -- let me do it.

11 Mr. Music, when you -- you said you had a view through that door.

12 Did you see people -- because you said that you had a look at the -- let

13 me just have a look. Did you ever recognise someone coming in or going

14 one out one of the offices you could look at?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And who did you recognise? First of all, perhaps:

17 How many people did you recognise coming in and out? What number?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this: I knew many

19 people. Many people from Hadzici, from the police, came there to see the

20 chief, Tomo Kovac, who was there then. In mid-August, I saw Momcilo

21 Krajisnik coming to the MUP at Ilidza, because Tomo Kovac was supposed to

22 be replaced by Tihomir Glavas, who was in the police from the very

23 beginning of the war in Hadzici. He was the chief of police. So that I

24 did have an opportunity -- I did everything that was necessary. I threw

25 out the rubbish, for example and things like that. But I was close to the

Page 8480

1 door which was opened and the police were waiting there, the police

2 station was there, and I was doing some cleaning, and they didn't know I

3 was there. They didn't realise I was there. But they were talking to

4 each other and they said: Momcilo Krajisnik came and Tomo Kovac was

5 supposed to go and become minister of police. So I overheard that

6 conversation.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you first.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Did you hear people talking about a visit of

10 Mr. Krajisnik or did you see Mr. Krajisnik?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw a car arriving, but I stood

12 apart because I saw an escort, I knew that somebody was coming. So I

13 stood by the window, by the police, where the door was always open if I --

14 if they needed me to do anything, to clean an office or anything like

15 that --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just stop you. The question was whether you

17 heard people saying that Mr. Krajisnik visited the police station or did

18 you actually see Mr. Krajisnik yourself?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of their conversation,

20 I heard them say that he had come --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but my question was whether it was just that you

22 heard them saying that he visited or did you see him yourself? Perhaps we

23 limit ourselves to the last question. Did you with your own eyes see

24 Mr. Krajisnik?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. Straight afterwards,

Page 8481

1 they brought me in and I was coming in through the opposite door, not the

2 main entrance not the main door. Because we were on the opposite side and

3 I recognised the man. I recognised him when he was coming back, when he

4 was returning.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were you in your cell or were you not in your

6 cell when you say you saw Mr. Krajisnik?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in the cell. I was in the

8 cell. They had taken me back to the cell to prevent me from seeing too

9 much. But I just happened to see it because the door was slightly ajar.

10 I was standing by the door. And I saw that happen. And they were saying

11 that he was supposed to come. I didn't know what the gentleman was doing

12 there, because I was in the camp, so I didn't know the general situation

13 and the goings-on, what was actually happening.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that you saw him through the window

15 in the door or through an opening, the door not being fully closed?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through the opening. The door was

17 closed, but through the opening. They would always lock the door.

18 JUDGE ORIE: You said it was ajar. Is that --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The small window on the door was

20 slightly ajar, was slightly open, and we would have suffocated had they

21 not let that small window on the door open.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that there was a kind of a closing to

23 that small window so you could close it or you could open it?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And you said it was -- do I understand you properly

Page 8482

1 that you said it was almost closed but not entirely?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not entirely, no. They would leave

3 it open for some air to come in, to prevent us from suffocating. As it

4 was a WC, there was water there all the time and I was wet myself all the

5 time.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, how many people were in your cell at the

7 moment when this happened?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was alone on that occasion,

9 because my colleague, the driver, had taken away the dredger. They took

10 away from the Muslims and Croats everything that was valuable. So we were

11 driving this to the warehouse up there in Blazuj.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you told us that you saw

13 Mr. Krajisnik. How long would you be able to see him? Did he pass by?

14 Did he stand still? Did he ...

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just while he was moving.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And was he moving in what direction? From left

17 to right or away from you, from the position where you were?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether he knew that I

19 was there then, because when he -- he was coming in, I said that the car

20 arrived in the compound --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, I was not asking whether Mr. Krajisnik was

22 aware, but I was asking in what direction he moved when you saw him.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Towards the exit.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Towards the exit. Did he come from the right or did

25 he come from the left?

Page 8483

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was sitting like this, as I am

2 now, and he passed in front of me, just a metre away. He was just

3 going -- moving towards the next door, up the stairs, two metres from the

4 stairs to the cell.

5 JUDGE ORIE: At what height approximately was the opening in the

6 door?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the opening was at the level

8 of my head.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That would be approximately in the middle of the

10 door, taking into account the average height of a door?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Higher. More, higher.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It would be higher. Could you give us an indication

13 then how high.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me explain it to you like

15 this: On one occasion, one of them knelt down, crouched down. The other

16 man got up on his shoulders and they urinated on us and then they threw in

17 acid at us. So the only way he could do this was to stand on his

18 colleague's shoulder and then they closed the door on us. And a Serb, he

19 was decent person and opened the aperture because we start coughing and

20 our eyes starting watering. So if I were to stand up, it would be on a

21 par at the level of my chin. And I was able to see them go for lunch or I

22 could see everybody coming in and out. And I could recognise them by

23 their voices. I knew who was going by. Even if the door was closed, you

24 know, when you're in the camp for such a long time, you could recognise

25 people's footsteps. And I asked them to let me move around and do the

Page 8484

1 most menial of jobs just to get me out of that cell and to survive and get

2 through that period.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You've not yet answered my question whether he came

4 from the left or from the right.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was coming back. He was going

6 back. I was here and he was going back. So he was passing by the

7 staircase. I could see his head and I can see everything. I don't know

8 why he was coming. I learnt that when I heard them talking.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, you've now told -- given me a lot of

10 information, but still not answered my question. Did he come from the

11 left when he went to the exit or did he come from the right when he went

12 to the exit?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, coming from the left. He was

14 passing by the staircase right by me, just like this screen in front of

15 me. All I was aware of then was that I had seen him. I never thought I'd

16 survive and have to explain it all to you here before you. Had I known

17 that I was coming here, well, then I might have paid more attention so

18 that I could describe it more exactly to you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on to the next

21 point, and I apologise --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not saying that this was by my questions was

23 exhausted. I have to be quite clear to you: I have not seen the

24 additional information. I've not read it. I've not even seen it at this

25 moment. I know that it does exist. So my questions were entirely on the

Page 8485

1 basis of, I would say, of a blank mind. So I would not mind if you have

2 any further questions, but please proceed.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour. To my mind, this issue, what's

4 come out into evidence as regards this issue has been satisfactorily

5 covered and I'd like to move on to the next point now.



8 Q. Mr. Music, dealing with paragraph 10 of your 1993 statement and

9 paragraph 103 of your statement to the Tribunal, you talk about your

10 return to the sports centre in Hadzici, where you found there were

11 approximately 500 detainees. Could you tell us: Did you have any

12 immediate family members present in that group of 500?

13 A. Yes. Yes. My late father was there. He died immediately after

14 leaving the camp. Then there was my brother, my sister-in-law, my

15 brother's son, who's retarded, his other son, who was born in 1981, my

16 wife, Zumreta Music, then a cousin of mine, Hamid Music, and his wife

17 Hasnija Music.

18 Q. And from conversations with the other detainees, did you learn

19 where they were from, where they had come from?

20 A. They were all locals from Hadzici. They all -- Gadici [phoen],

21 Dupovici [phoen], those hamlets, Donji Hadzici, from all the different

22 hamlets, and I knew practically every single person who was there.

23 Q. Thank you. Now dealing with paragraph 11 of your 1993 statement

24 and paragraphs 108 to 112 of your ICTY statement. You talk about your

25 transfer to Svrake and the situation there. And at this point, I'd like

Page 8486

1 to show you a photo, a further photo, which -- bearing the number

2 03616938, which has an exhibit number from this Trial Chamber, number

3 P379. It was previously shown. I have both copies of the photo here, but

4 Mr. Registrar might ... If a copy could be shown to the witness?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. I think the witness would like to point

7 something out on the ELMO. Maybe we could have the usher just shift the

8 picture up a little.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please have the ELMO moved

10 such direction that the whole of the picture appears. A little bit higher

11 up even.

12 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Up a little more, please. I think that's

13 fine.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Music, did you have occasion to have a look at this

15 photograph yesterday?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recognise what's depicted in the photograph?

18 A. This is in Svrake, Planja's house, called Duja [phoen] camp. We

19 would go up here. That was the entrance, and --

20 Q. Indicating the entrance on the left-hand side of the photograph.

21 A. The entrance was here, and I was up here, on this upper storey,

22 here, here.

23 Q. Indicating the first floor.

24 A. The first floor.

25 Q. And does this --

Page 8487

1 A. That was where the police were.

2 Q. Indicating the second -- one of the second-floor windows; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, does this depict the picture of what you call Planjo's house

6 resemble how it appeared in 1992?

7 A. Yes, it's the same as it is now.

8 Q. Now, in paragraph 11 of your 1993 statement, you say you found 102

9 detainees there on your arrival. From conversations with those other

10 detainees, did you learn where they were from?

11 You can remove the photo now.

12 A. From talking to the people, I learnt that they were from the

13 Semizovac, Svrake, Ahatovici area, Bioca, and I think it belongs to the

14 other municipality, Visoko, Visoko municipality. Because I have some

15 family there and I came across some cousins and relations on my father's

16 side who took me in. So I went upstairs, where they were lying down.

17 They spent the whole night on the staircase. They were good people. And

18 they went to be a human shield at Zuc later on and to dig trenches and

19 things.

20 Q. Mr. Music, now if we could just --

21 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 MS. EDGERTON: I would like to put another document, a document to

24 the witness at this point, and I think Ms. Javier has gone to the AV

25 booth. And maybe the usher could assist.

Page 8488

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher. Could you assist Ms. Javier.

2 MS. EDGERTON: It's a series of documents. Actually, a collection

3 of two groups, bearing the ERN number 00577933 to 00577938, with one

4 single page at the end with a different ERN number, 02100578. All dated

5 22 October 1992. If that could be given a number.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: This document will receive the number P412 -- 11,

8 sorry.


10 Q. Now, Mr. Music, in your -- in paragraph 11 of your statement from

11 1993, you noted that you were transferred to Svrake on 23 October 1992; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Music, did you have an opportunity to look at these two

15 documents yesterday?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you can read Cyrillic, Mr. Music?

18 A. A bit. I prefer the Roman alphabet, but I can read Cyrillic too,

19 yes.

20 Q. Were you able to -- you reviewed these documents. Were you able

21 to understand what was contained in them?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. Turning to -- having looked at these documents, then,

24 Mr. Music, could you, for the Court, tell us what these documents are.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, just in relation to that.

Page 8489


2 MS. LOUKAS: The document speaks for it was, and the witness not

3 having been someone who has, prior to being interviewed by the Prosecution

4 citing these documents, it seems to me there's very little -- no probative

5 value in relation to that last question.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It depends what the following questions will

7 be. I take it, Ms. Edgerton, an explanation in presence of the witness

8 might not be the most appropriate thing to do.

9 Let me first ask: Mr. Music, do you read or understand any

10 English?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Do I take it that you really do not understand -- you

13 cannot follow a conversation, you cannot read a line in English.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist and ask the

16 witness to take off his headphones.

17 Ms. Edgerton, what in the next questions would be such that the

18 witness could cast a specific light on these documents?

19 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I asked the question clumsily. I can

20 offer the same details that I was hoping to elicit from the witness. This

21 purports to be a document dated 22 October 1992, or several documents

22 under that date, the first being a letter from minister Momcilo Mandic to

23 the president of the Presidency of the Republika Srpska, the president of

24 the RS, the chairman of the Assembly and the prime minister, the second

25 being a report on the situation in prisons and collection camps for

Page 8490

1 prisoners of war, also with the same date.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. But what could this witness

3 add to that? I mean apart from -- if his testimony is that -- well, let's

4 say he was detained in place X or Y and if that same place appears in this

5 letter, then even without asking the witness, the Chamber is still able to

6 see that his testimony seems to correspond with what's in this letter.

7 But what could the witness add, apart from that?

8 MS. EDGERTON: Simply that, Your Honour, in fact he will confirm

9 that he was one of the prisoners of war accommodated in the Hadzici sports

10 centre, as set out in paragraph 10, I think it is, of the first report.

11 And with regard to the last document, letter to the Serbian municipalities

12 of Hadzici and Ilidza, signed by minister Momcilo Mandic, directing that

13 these detainees be transferred to Svrake, he can confirm that his transfer

14 to Svrake took place immediately after the date of this letter.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that, I can indicate

16 that the bundle of documents we received, and I'm just confirming with

17 Ms. Cmeric, has two documents with translations, not the third document

18 that Ms. Edgerton is referring to.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. What I -- yes. But the

20 third document might be the one that was just given to us and not yet

21 attribute a number. Is that correct? Then it should have been given to

22 the Defence as well. Is that the document, the 22nd of October, 1992?

23 MS. EDGERTON: I see that it is, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you receive that, Ms. Loukas? It was just

25 handed out to us now, a document with a number -- well, English

Page 8491

1 translation, last four digits is 0578, which is an ET number.

2 MS. LOUKAS: I think we're getting it now, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Take your time to have a look at it.


5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, in view of the response given by

6 Ms. Edgerton, is there any further submission?

7 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that last document.


9 MS. LOUKAS: Just one correction in relation to the English.


11 MS. LOUKAS: That very last document in the B/C/S refers to prelog

12 attachment, but the translation is argument number 48.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Prelog means attachment?

14 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Prelog means attachment?

16 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. But the English translation is

17 argument. So there's been a mistranslation there.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And then I see that it says number 4, 48, whereas I

19 can see if broj stands for number, then I see 48 but not 4, 48.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. So that's the issue. It's just

21 a mistranslation in terms of attachment to argument in the English.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then, Ms. Edgerton, it bears the page 623

23 and it seems to be an attachment number 48. To what?

24 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, it looks to me like -- I have an

25 English translation of the same document without these handwritten

Page 8492

1 annotations at the top, bearing a different ERN number. So I don't know

2 that I'm able to assist except to say that it appears we have two separate

3 copies in our systems of the same document, one with handwritten

4 annotations and the other without.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then preferably the English translation

6 should correspond with the version that is provided in original. So

7 you're working from a different document.

8 Ms. Loukas, could we proceed on the basis that the Chamber

9 expects, in view of the answer just given by Ms. Edgerton that she might

10 come up with a document where we start with Republika Srpska and whereas

11 623 and the prelog number doesn't appear and where we have a different ERN

12 number. She has an original. Ms. Edgerton, could you give me the

13 original for one second that you're working from? Because then I can

14 compare whether it looks more or less the same and then ...

15 Yes, Mr. Usher. Could you please assist Ms. Edgerton.

16 MS. EDGERTON: I think, Your Honour, that we all might have the

17 same original, but I might have a translation of a different document.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see you have -- yes. Your translation was a

19 different ERN number, and your translation does not correspond with the

20 original.

21 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour. We should rectify that as soon as

22 possible. And it appears there's two copies of the same document,

23 possibly retrieved from different individuals or different locations. And

24 I'll make sure the matter is rectified.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please return this to

Page 8493

1 Ms. Edgerton.

2 Ms. Loukas.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Now that that translation error

4 has been clarified and we look forward to the clarification in relation to

5 the documents, the question Your Honour asked me in relation to whether

6 there was any response in light of Ms. Edgerton's response on this

7 question of the documents that are sought to be put to the witness. Your

8 Honour, I would submit that the position put by the Prosecution does not

9 in any way detract from the argument that I have made, and that is,

10 firstly, the documents speak for themselves. If there is any inferences

11 to be drawn, they are, of course, to be drawn by Your Honours --


13 MS. LOUKAS: -- in the usual course. In the circumstances, it

14 appears quite clear that the witness can in no way add anything to the

15 question of the documents.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first of all, I don't think, and I'm now

17 referring to the information Ms. Edgerton gave us. I don't think that

18 this witness could tell us anything about the reporting as such.


20 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, and we do not need, as a matter of fact,

21 this witness to tell us that if he reads in a report that there was a

22 detention facility in Hadzici and if he has testified that -- and even

23 that it's in the sports centre, where we have seen a photograph of that

24 sports centre, and where this reports says that, that if the witness would

25 conclude that it most likely would be the same, then we even do not need

Page 8494

1 the witness to come to a -- at least it would allow us to come to a

2 similar conclusion, not saying that we do, but ... So to that extent ...

3 On the other hand, Ms. Loukas, then we still have the problem on

4 how this document could be introduced. Would the Defence in any way

5 object to the admission of this document if it would be more or less clear

6 where it comes from?

7 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, my objection is based on the fact

8 that it is inappropriate for this particular document to be dealt with

9 through this witness. It's also clear, Your Honour, that we're dealing

10 with a document that does have a signature, does apparently have a stamp

11 in the B/C/S version, but is obviously a document to be dealt with through

12 another witness at another time, considering the person who has signed it

13 and the witnesses to come, Your Honour. And in those circumstances, it's

14 certainly not a document to be dealt with through this witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if you say that we could draw our own

16 conclusions, then of course we would need the document to be in evidence.

17 Therefore, I'm just inquiring whether there would be a chance to have this

18 document -- I'm not saying that it would be the proper way to introduce it

19 through this witness.

20 Then the second document is a bit different. Let me ...

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, the Chamber comes to the conclusion

23 that the witness can testify of what he experienced, and that is his

24 detention and his detention in Hadzici and when he was transferred.

25 That's all fine. But he really could not add anything to these documents.

Page 8495

1 So, therefore, it's not a proper way to introduce these documents, through

2 this witness. I leave it open whether they could be introduced without a

3 witness at all or just supported by some information, where they come

4 from, perhaps after you've given this information to the Defence and see

5 whether it would still be necessary to call any witness to testify about

6 the source of these documents. But this witness would not be a proper one

7 to introduce these documents into evidence. So I'm not saying anything

8 about the relevance. The Chamber is not saying anything about whether

9 they could be introduced or not. But at this moment, you were asking the

10 witness for the obvious, I would say. If you know his testimony, if you

11 know the document, this witness is not in a special position, I would say,

12 to draw these inferences. So therefore, this is not a rejection of the

13 document, but at least a non-admission at this moment through this

14 witness. Please proceed.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Understood, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And then I also think that we should reverse the

17 attribution of the number to this document, Mr. Registrar, so that P411

18 would be for the next document rather than for this one. Ms. Edgerton,

19 the other document, the photograph, was already in evidence, so we don't

20 have to deal with that number. It doesn't need any change.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour --


25 MS. LOUKAS: -- just before Ms. Edgerton proceed, just for the

Page 8496

1 record, I can indicate that -- and we obviously don't need to deal with it

2 at this point, but I do want to place it on the record. There are

3 significant translations errors with the documents we're dealing with that

4 we've been dealing with right now. I want to place that on the record

5 before we move on.

6 JUDGE ORIE: What we do is invite Ms. Edgerton to review the

7 translation if she wants to come back with this document. The invitation

8 is there, Ms. Edgerton.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps during the next break, Ms. Loukas, you could

11 assist Ms. Edgerton in pointing at what the problems are.

12 MS. LOUKAS: As Your Honour pleases.

13 MS. EDGERTON: That would bring us to the last -- if the witness

14 could put his earphones back on.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your patience, Mr. Music. Please

16 proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, that brings us to the last two items,

18 the intercepts, and I'm told by Mr. Hannis that before playing them we

19 need a five-minute break in which the technicians have to come in and do

20 something technical.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. So therefore you suggest that

22 we have a break now. Yes. Let's then have a five minutes' break, and if

23 everyone could remain standby. We'll have a break for five minutes.

24 --- Break taken at 11.48 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 12.06 p.m.

Page 8497

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, have all the technical problems been

2 solved?

3 MS. EDGERTON: So I've been told. And there's been a rehearsal

4 and we're prepared to --

5 JUDGE ORIE: At least I do not hear. So if you put on your

6 microphone, then the first technical problem is solved.

7 MS. EDGERTON: The first -- and as I said without the microphone,

8 there's been -- Ms. Javier has done a rehearsal and it looks like we'll be

9 ready to play the intercepts now.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I take it that we follow the same procedure

11 as we did before, that if it goes too far, the interpreters are

12 interpreting on the basis of the written text, and at the same time, the

13 other interpreter, by following, will see whether there are any

14 inconsistencies, the procedure that has been elaborated before. Please

15 proceed.

16 MS. EDGERTON: The first intercept now being one, Mr. Music, dated

17 26 June 1992, between Momcilo Krajisnik and Momcilo Mandic.

18 Q. You've listened to this yesterday, and have the same transcript

19 that you reviewed yesterday in front of you again; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. We can begin.

22 [Intercept played]

23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

24 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

25 Miljana: Hello. Minister, how are you.

Page 8498

1 Momcilo MANDIC: All right. How are you.

2 Miljana: Just a moment, please. The president would like to talk

3 to you.

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Hello.

5 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes.

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Mandic?

7 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right. Are you a traitor like everybody

9 else.

10 Momcilo MANDIC: God forbid.

11 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes?

12 Miljana: Minister, the connection broke up.

13 Momcilo MANDIC: Something at your end ...

14 Miljana: You can, laughing.

15 Momcilo MANDIC: From the village up there, and then you got cut

16 off.

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Hello.

18 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Momo?

20 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, president?

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: What was it?

22 Momcilo MANDIC: Probably something at your end.

23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: The moment I told you and you betrayed it, the

24 line got cut off.

25 Momcilo MANDIC: God forbid.

Page 8499

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Ah.

2 Momcilo MANDIC: I would not do it.

3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Momo, tell me, how does it go?

4 Momcilo MANDIC: Well, I'm not up to date with what is going on in

5 that lower part, the main one, but as for this one, it is going well.

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: ... these haven't come in at all.

7 Momcilo MANDIC: Not at all?

8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Not at all.

9 Momcilo MANDIC: I would not know anything about that.

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: This is a shame, a shame.

11 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Two things. I actually wanted to see if

13 Stanisic was there, to see with him what is happening with this, so it

14 means that what we agreed upon was not respected.

15 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There is still a half chance today, and

17 tomorrow it will be finished.

18 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: It's a big problem with Alija. Has that one

20 been finished. That is awful. As of today we finish it all, you know.

21 Momcilo MANDIC: Here, there is something pounding.

22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Huh?

23 Momcilo MANDIC: It could be heard that they pound.

24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes. That is -- has he made it down there or

25 not? It's all over now. Secondly, have you released the one I told you

Page 8500

1 about by any chance?

2 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, I have.

3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes?

4 Momcilo MANDIC: He left for Vrbanja one hour ago.

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Thank God.

6 Momcilo MANDIC: Karamehmedovic, right?

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, that's him.

8 Momcilo MANDIC: Well, he is gone.

9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Let me also ask you about what this Savic

10 Milos, since it's his brother that is really --

11 Momcilo MANDIC: President, I put it on the list. The first next

12 exchange and it will be finished.

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Check it down there. Do you have anyone

14 there? Can you contact someone?

15 Momcilo MANDIC: There is this Vukovic, a member of the youth

16 organisation, a Serb who is criticising us because we have four hundred

17 prisoners here, you know?

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who is criticising?

19 Momcilo MANDIC: I've got four hundred.

20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And who is criticising?

21 Momcilo MANDIC: This Vukovic, Filip, the member of the youth

22 organisation, Serb, he says clean it but for them they are ...

23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Filip Vukovic?

24 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Communist?

Page 8501

1 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes.

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: What does he want?

3 Momcilo MANDIC: He is the president of that exchange commission.

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Their commission?

5 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And what is it that he wants?

7 Momcilo MANDIC: War prisoners. No, they are ex for them. They

8 are hardly interested in people. They are interested in ammunition and

9 meat and now we let those women and children go to Vrbanja, go to their

10 own people. He says that's ethnic cleansing, what we do ...

11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He does.

12 Momcilo MANDIC: Here ... When ... I will fucking --

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And where is he now?

14 Momcilo MANDIC: Somewhere there. I do not know.

15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: With them, isn't he?

16 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That means he is theirs?

18 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes, yes.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: God, traitors all around.

20 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good, Momo. Look, please do call him. I

22 would like to help Savic. It's his brother in stake.

23 Momcilo MANDIC: First exchange, I will take care of that.

24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good, Momo.

25 Momcilo MANDIC: And that man, is he gone?

Page 8502

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Momo, let me ask you something.

2 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Whom would we appoint for the republic [sic]

4 prosecutor.

5 Momcilo MANDIC: Avlijas Slobodan.

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Avlijas Slobodan?

7 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well is that --

9 Momcilo MANDIC: It is, president. Here, there is a man who knows

10 everything who is from here.

11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I know him.

12 Momcilo MANDIC: So, you do know him?

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good. If he was pro ... Judge ...

14 Momcilo MANDIC: He was medj ... He was in my ministry, however,

15 he is skilled, capable, he knows many of those people, and the place does

16 not hold him. I think he is the man for it.

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Kovac Slobodan. This one cannot.

18 Momcilo MANDIC: Kovac Slobodan? What.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good.

20 Momcilo MANDIC: Already.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: You should draft that proposal and then send

22 it from here.

23 Momcilo MANDIC: Deal.

24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right.

25 Momcilo MANDIC: Bye.

Page 8503

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Come on, go back to work. You are hardly

2 there yourself ... Really... Listen, you say I will give the fax and you

3 do it straight away and you say I will give the phone and you do it

4 straight away.

5 Momcilo MANDIC: Laughing.

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We should set you free from this fax

7 because ...

8 Momcilo MANDIC: Don't ... Will come ...

9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: You don't have to ...

10 Momcilo MANDIC: Skrbo is here. I don't know what to do with him.

11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Don't go to the field now, for action ...

12 Momcilo MANDIC: Laughing ... no, no, no ... President, what are

13 we going to do? Send a commissioner to Kasindol, two -- three men, some

14 Papazi they came to me from Dr. Avramovic from Kasindol. Nobody ever

15 called. They scattered there, doctor. They appoint their own people for

16 directors.

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And who is that one?

18 Momcilo MANDIC: To Kasindol, the hospital.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who are these people? Where is that from?

20 Momcilo MANDIC: Local community of Kasindol, the Crisis Staff.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Is that the municipality, which one?

22 Momcilo MANDIC: No, it's the local community Ilidza. Ilidza is

23 the municipality. Kasindol is local community.

24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And why do they have the commissioner? Why

25 don't they go there?

Page 8504

1 Momcilo MANDIC: No, it isn't. I don't know which ... These

2 doctors came to me. They appointed some ... Divljan Sonja instead of this

3 director ...

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And how could they do that?

5 Momcilo MANDIC: The Crisis Staff of the local community Kasindol

6 appointed her.

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Give me, please ...

8 Momcilo MANDIC: And then ... Popovic Koviljka, the cashier, to

9 make an overview to see how the income is being distributed, and income

10 again ...

11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will call Prstojevic to go there or to send

12 someone because he has the Crisis Staff Ilidza, that is Ilidza.

13 Momcilo MANDIC: It's a shame president.

14 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will see that they are taken care of

15 immediately [as interpreted].

16 Momcilo MANDIC: But they are in contact with Prstojevic.

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: See, then if he does not do anything we'll see

18 to send someone else there.

19 Momcilo MANDIC: They are in some kind of business with that

20 Prstojevic Jevic. They do black marketing together ...

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He cannot do anything on his own, he has the

22 committee now, some wonderful people are there, you know. They are not

23 the old ones any more.

24 Momcilo MANDIC: But, doctor, these came, and they whine and

25 cry ...

Page 8505

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Tell them it will be taken care of properly.

2 Momcilo MANDIC: Because they do not obey. They did not give them

3 a slice of bread.

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who?

5 Momcilo MANDIC: Those from the local community because ...

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who does not give a piece of bread?

7 Momcilo MANDIC: They would not allow assistance go straight to

8 the hospital Kasindol but only through them. Then they stop that

9 assistance and give them a little. It's a shame.

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will now ...

11 Momcilo MANDIC: People should be arrested, President.

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will find Dragan Kalinic to go there and see

13 what needs to be done.

14 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, please, doctor, do that. Here I have five

15 people sitting right across me staring at me and ...

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Momo, what you promised I will do.

17 Momcilo MANDIC: Good, President.

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There is no such minister in the entire

19 planet ...

20 Momcilo MANDIC: Oh, come on, please ...

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will ...

22 Momcilo MANDIC: So they don't disperse the staff.

23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will, Momo.

24 Momcilo MANDIC: Thank you very much, bye."

25 MS. EDGERTON: Mr. Music, you've listened to that conversation.

Page 8506

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you've understood everything you've heard?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, yesterday, before -- after listening to this conversation or

5 while listening to this conversation and before looking at the transcript,

6 were you able to recognise any of the speakers, the voices of any of the

7 speakers in this conversation?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who was that?

10 A. Momcilo Krajisnik and Momcilo Mandic.

11 Q. How were you able to recognise those voices?

12 A. Well, you see, I knew them before the war, before the operations

13 started. As for Momcilo Mandic, I saw him at the Kula several times. He

14 came there where we were given food. My window faced --

15 Q. Mr. Music, if I can just make you step back for a couple of

16 seconds. When you say I knew them before the war, do you mean you had

17 personal acquaintance with them before the war or you had had occasion to

18 hear their voices some other way?

19 A. No. Hearing their voices over TV, things like that.

20 Q. Now, you said that one of the speakers in this conversation was

21 Momcilo Mandic. Did you ever have occasion to see a person who was

22 identified to you as Mandic visit Kula during your detention there?

23 MS. LOUKAS: Again, Your Honour --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, it's entirely clear to me. Again,

25 Ms. Edgerton, you're doing exactly the same, although you use a few more

Page 8507

1 words, but you're doing exactly the same. You're leading the witness in

2 one of the really sensitive issues. And that's done. Not to make the

3 questioning of the Chamber the example for your future conduct, but

4 perhaps you could try to remind how I put a few questions to this witness

5 in relation to visitors in detention facilities and try to do it as

6 neutrally as possible.

7 MS. EDGERTON: He did offer that evidence up before I had

8 interrupted him, in fact, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I noticed that. And that would not be a

10 sufficient justification just to take that then for granted and to feel

11 freely to lead as you did. Please proceed.


13 Q. Mr. Music, other than --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Other than seeing either of these individuals on TV, did you have

16 occasion to personally see them?

17 A. No. But I know that Momcilo Krajisnik is from Zabrdje, and I have

18 a friend from [indiscernible], that's right above his village, and I know

19 his wife is also a teacher and I know where his house is and everything.

20 I watch television, because they figured prominently even before the war

21 and --

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Music. So that's about Mr. Krajisnik as a speaker.

23 Now, you mentioned that you recognised the voice of Mr. Mandic as a

24 speaker. Other than seeing Mr. Mandic on TV, did you have occasion to see

25 him face to face?

Page 8508

1 A. I had the opportunity of seeing him face to face because he came

2 to Kula, right opposite my window that was facing the canteen. He and his

3 brother. He has a receding hairline and has light-coloured hair and was

4 on the police force before the war. I know everything. So I had the

5 opportunity of seeing him then, but not after that.

6 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Music, you said that you saw him in Kula.

7 Could you tell us how often you saw him during the course of your

8 detention there?

9 A. I cannot give you an exact number because there was a dog tied

10 beneath our window and we did not dare come to the window, and therefore

11 we were not allowed to see them. The guards even threatened that they

12 would beat us if we would come close to the window, because they didn't

13 want us to see who was coming and going.

14 Q. Was it on more than one occasion?

15 A. Several occasions. They either came for coffee or for lunch or

16 for breakfast, whatever. Many of them came. But I was interested in that

17 least of all. I was hoping to have food or something like that. I worked

18 on the 20th of July, 1992, in Ozrenska Street. We were digging trenches

19 and dugouts and then --

20 Q. Mr. Music, you've spoken about your work on Ozrenska Street in

21 your statements which are before the Trial Chamber. I just have, before

22 we get to the next intercept, one other question for you, and it deals

23 with the number of detainees that you were aware of at Kula as of the date

24 of this conversation. How many men were detained, to your knowledge, as

25 of the 26th of June?

Page 8509

1 A. Since they separated 47 people out of the 280, I told you that, so

2 you have the figures. But in the neighbouring buildings, I heard screams

3 and cries, but I don't know how many people were in those buildings.

4 Women, children were crying, people were screaming. They were beating us.

5 They were forcing us to sing different songs, saying this is Serbia.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Music. I think you've answered the question very

7 well. And I think it's time for us to move on to the second conversation

8 that you heard yesterday.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I'd like to ask a few questions about

10 the rather chaotic portions of the testimony until now. But Ms. Loukas,

11 if there's anything you'd like to ...

12 MS. LOUKAS: Well, just very quickly, Your Honour. I can

13 understand what Ms. Edgerton is doing, but it's inappropriate for comments

14 such as "you've answered the question very well." I can understand --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that I do understand that Ms. Edgerton wanted

16 to express that the answer of the witness was sufficient as far as what

17 she -- but let me just ask a few questions first before we move to our

18 next subject.

19 Mr. Music, you told us --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- that, if I understood you well, that you had seen

22 Mr. Mandic several times.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like you to concentrate on the first time you saw

25 him. Where were you --

Page 8510

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only saw him in passing, only in

2 passing, as he was entering the canteen.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just first ask you: Where were you when you

4 saw for the first time Mr. Mandic?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I was beaten quite badly in

6 Kula and --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was standing by the window.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You were standing by the window --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- in a cell or in a room or in a hall? Tell us what

12 the ...

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a room that had windows down

14 the entire wall. There were 25 of us prisoners there.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You were in a room together with 25 prisoners and

16 there was a large window going entirely to the floor or just a little bit

17 up from the floor?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. There were radiators, and then

19 windows were above the radiators. So now you can visualise it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say this window was -- you saw him going to

21 the canteen. Was the canteen in the same building or in a different

22 building?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the building opposite. There's

24 about 50 or perhaps 60 metres to it. It was shaped like a horseshoe, and

25 there was a building going all around. That was where the camp is, where

Page 8511

1 it was before the war and everything.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand you well that it was not in a

3 different building, but it was in a different wing of the same building,

4 opposite to the wing your room was in?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Now try to concentrate on the first time you saw

7 Mr. Mandic going to the canteen.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In camouflage, in camouflage

9 uniform.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. If you wait for the questions, then I'll

11 ask you. I would like to know: Did he arrive walking to that building or

12 by any means of transportation vehicle?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, no means of

14 transportation vehicles came in, because they had a parking-lot elsewhere.

15 So --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that you want to explain your

17 answer, but I'd rather first hear your answer before to receive the

18 explanation. So you say he came walking; is that correct?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He came to the building and the

20 building is longish, about 50 metres, and I saw them walking in. I saw

21 him because I knew him before he was on the police force. I recognised

22 him himself, and then he was saying that that was his brother. Because

23 this man who was the colleague of Avlijas knew that. He knew them.

24 Because he probably used to meet with them.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Where did you meet Mr. Mandic for the first time?

Page 8512

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not meet him. He was in the

2 room and he was walking in the opposite direction. And I was as I am

3 here, and they were 50 metres away from me when they were entering this

4 canteen or mess hall or whatever.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have misunderstood your earlier testimony.

6 Let's go back to it. You said: "I saw him because I knew him before. He

7 was on the police force. I recognised him himself --"

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE:: "He was saying that he was his brother." When was

10 he saying to whom that he was --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wasn't saying it.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then please explain, because then I misunderstood

13 you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wasn't saying it. It was this

15 colleague who was visited by -- Judge Slobodan Avlijas said that was his

16 brother. I didn't know the brother. I knew who Mandic was. I cannot say

17 things that I did not know. But for me, it's a silly thing to say that

18 you don't know someone who holds high office in any country. I mean, it's

19 silly. You watch television. You know who is what.

20 JUDGE ORIE: No. The only thing we'd like to know is what exactly

21 you observed, by what means. So you say you knew who Mr. Mandic was

22 because you had seen him on television; is that correct?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the war I followed all of

24 this, so I knew him from before. I did not know his brother, though. I

25 know Krajisnik for many years. I did not know his brother.

Page 8513

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to focus on the questions I'm putting to

2 you. So you knew Mr. Mandic only by watching television; is that correct?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the war, I knew him, because

4 he was in the MUP. My cousin worked in the MUP, and different relatives

5 of mine. I knew him. Just -- I knew that Tomo Kovac was in Ilidza in the

6 police force there before --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- try to make a clear distinction between what you

10 have seen and what you know. You understand? I can say that I know who

11 is the mayor of The Hague because I have seen this written down in

12 newspapers. But at the same time, I might never have seen him live. Do

13 you understand what I mean? So you knew what the position of Mr. Mandic

14 was because other people told you and you watched that on television; is

15 that correct?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I follow the newspapers and

17 television, so I know all the faces of people who --


19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- who are in high positions.

20 JUDGE ORIE: So through the media and through what people told

21 you, you were aware of the positions and of the faces of --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ever see Mr. Mandic live? Did you ever

24 see him face to face?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In passing, in the town of Sarajevo,

Page 8514

1 before the war, for instance. But I wasn't interested in him at the time.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now let's go back to the first time you saw him

3 when you were in Kula prison. He walked to the canteen; is that a correct

4 understanding of what you told us?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, you're right.

6 JUDGE ORIE: At a distance of approximately 50 to 60 metres; is

7 that a correct understanding?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you saw him at this distance, was it --

10 how did you recognise him? On the basis of what?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I know him. I'm following it

12 all now, too. And I know the property and riches he possesses, I know

13 about the people around him.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me bring you back again. I'm not asking you what

15 you know about Mr. Mandic and whether he's rich or poor. I'm asking you

16 on the basis of what you recognised him at that first occasion when he

17 went to the canteen.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, my colleagues said Mandic is

19 coming in and his brother to have something to eat because the others went

20 down there to clean up. I didn't because I was exhausted. So I didn't.

21 I didn't move around. I had long hair and a beard and not even my friends

22 could recognise me when they took me out to have my hair cut.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's concentrate on the beginning of your answer.

24 You said: "My colleagues said Mandic is coming in and his brother to have

25 something to eat."

Page 8515

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them going into the canteen.

2 Whether they were eating, whether he they just went for a couple of

3 coffee, I don't know. But I saw them coming in and when you're in the

4 camp you just pray to God that you have enough food and freedom. That's

5 all.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I fully understand that the position from which

7 you observed what you just told us was not one that you would wish to be

8 in. Now, did your colleagues recognise him and have they drawn your

9 attention to his presence, or did you by yourself, before your colleagues

10 said anything to you, already recognise him?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was standing there, and so were

12 some other of my colleagues. They were standing next to me and we were

13 looking in that direction. And I saw them coming in. I was not

14 interested at all at who was what. But then had this man said there's

15 Mandic and his brother and I had a better looked and recognised him

16 because he had a receding hairline, didn't have much hair up in front and

17 that's when I saw him. I saw him coming in. Otherwise, he didn't come to

18 see me or mistreat me or anything like that or anybody else. So I can't

19 say anything bad about him. I personally -- that's just what happened.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So your colleague drew your attention that the

21 person that was going to the canteen was Mr. Mandic and his brother. Then

22 you looked and you recognised him; is that a correct understanding of your

23 evidence?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have any further information about his visit,

Page 8516

1 reason of the visit, length of the visit, well, whatever?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, let me take you back to an earlier part of your

4 evidence. I have to find the ...

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: When you saw Mr. Mandic and the person who was told

7 that was his brother, were you -- did you have a clear view over the

8 terrain?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how you mean.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, was the view in any way obstructed?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he was walking around there.

12 I said the dog was right underneath the window and the policeman was

13 walking up and down and if he saw us at the door he would beat us and

14 didn't want us to see who was coming in and going up because everybody,

15 the higher officers, had their meals there.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Does that mean that you were not close to the

17 window?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was standing next to the

19 window perhaps a metre away. I wasn't -- I didn't dare get right up

20 against the window to avoid having the guard see me. But we looked out of

21 the window all the time. We could not look out the window. If you were

22 interested in something, you would look out. You weren't allowed to move

23 around the room because there were 20 of us lying down on the floor. And I

24 had been beaten a lot. So they said that I should stand up, that it would

25 be better for my condition if I stood up for a while. I don't want to

Page 8517

1 have to go into all these explanations now. But judging by the

2 conversations I would be able to draw those conclusions. I'm not a judge

3 to say who did what, when, how, but ...

4 JUDGE ORIE: What conversations are you referring to?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, with respect to Mandic and all

6 the rest of it. I wasn't able to ask him anything. I was smaller than a

7 dog, as far as they were concerned, because they humiliated us, so they

8 treated us worse than dogs. So I wasn't able to go up to him and ask him

9 something. So you're asking me to tell you something that I just am not

10 able to do.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, as far as the other visits are concerned, was

12 your observation of Mr. Mandic a similar one or same distance?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. It's like this, but we

14 were all nervous wrecks because the abuse and mistreatment went on. They

15 wouldn't let us go to the toilet even when we wanted to. So what -- we

16 just had a litre and a half water among the 25 of us. It was general

17 chaos, absolutely chaotic.

18 JUDGE ORIE: My question -- my question, however, was whether you

19 saw him in similar circumstances, that means same distance, same position,

20 approximately, from where you observed him.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we weren't allowed to stand

22 right up to the window. We moved back a metre. So if the guard was

23 walking up and down, he couldn't see us right up at the window.

24 Otherwise, he'd take someone out and mistreat them, beat them. So we

25 tried to steer clear of anything like that. And usually they were the

Page 8518

1 people that came in from elsewhere who did that. Otherwise, the prison

2 administration, they were very decent to us.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, again, I'm just trying to find out, when

4 you told us that at -- when you if it first time saw Mr. Mandic, that you

5 were at some distance, you said also approximately a metre away from the

6 window, whether at the second time this was the same or not.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the same. We weren't allowed

8 to stand right up against the window. I've told you already. I don't

9 want to repeat it ten times. I hope you've understood me.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I certainly have understood that. Do you

11 remember how much time went by between the first and the second time you

12 saw Mr. Mandic?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell you, because I

14 wasn't interested. All I was interested in was to have enough food to eat

15 and for them to let me walk up and down. Who came in, what, how long, I

16 don't know.

17 JUDGE ORIE: How many times all together you saw him?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really couldn't say.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an estimate? Was it -- well, let's

20 say -- I do understand more than once, but it could be five times, ten

21 times, 20 times, 50 times. Could you give us a more precise answer

22 than -- if you don't know, please tell us.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know. I don't want

24 to mislead you. I don't know how many times.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Even not approximately how many times?

Page 8519

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't like to venture a guess.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have any information about the purpose of the

3 visit of Minister Mandic, apart from that you took it from him going to

4 the canteen that he might go to eat there?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like this; you must

6 understand: If you're a camp inmate, a prisoner, all you're thinking

7 about is to have food and your own personal freedom, even if they beat

8 you. I couldn't pick and choose. I didn't know why he was coming or

9 going and all the rest of it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was he always accompanied by his brother?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Was he accompanied by others when he was -- by

13 another person or by other persons when he was not accompanied by his

14 brother?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they would come in, more of

16 them. I didn't look to see who, what. They were all the same to me.

17 They were all my enemies. So I didn't -- I never thought I would survive.

18 And had I thought ever that I would survive, then I would pay attention to

19 every detail, because my memory serves me very well. But if you can --

20 I'm just telling you in the briefest possible terms, because it's

21 something that I feel strongly about.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Music, please accept that no one is blaming

23 you for not having seen or perhaps not remembering any details of what

24 happened at that time.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 8520

1 JUDGE ORIE: When you said you didn't know why he was coming, was

2 that an answer to my question that you had no information about the

3 purpose of his visit; you were not told why he was there?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if they take everything away

5 from you, your ID, your papers, you haven't got a radio, you haven't got

6 anything else, how could you know the purpose for them or him coming?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. [Indiscernible] your answer.

8 Ms. Edgerton, you wanted to move to your next subject, but I think

9 we're about to have a break, because it's 10 minutes to 1.00. After the

10 break, I'd -- yes. I would first like to ask the usher to escort

11 Mr. Music out of the courtroom. We have another break, Mr. Music, for

12 approximately 20 minutes.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you

14 [The witness stands down]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, first of all, do you have any idea on

16 how much time you'd still need for examination-in-chief?

17 MS. EDGERTON: One or more intercept, two questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: One more intercept, two questions. So approximately

19 15 minutes, if at least the Chamber doesn't interfere.

20 Then one of the issues that will then arise is whether we could

21 start with the cross-examination, and we understood, Ms. Loukas, that you

22 are taken by surprise as far as the information of the presence of

23 Mr. Krajisnik in the police station is concerned.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Well, the witness's evidence certainly contained even

25 more surprises thereafter.

Page 8521

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, yes. Ms. Edgerton, I take it that the --

2 well, the surprise parts that we have gone through them or are there still

3 even more surprises to ...

4 MS. EDGERTON: To my knowledge, there lies nothing more, I assure

5 you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you're invited to explain to the Chamber,

7 because that might be relevant for the question on whether there's any

8 cross-examination needed or to what extent it is needed, Ms. Loukas, what

9 the OTP considers that it has presented evidence to. Let me just give you

10 an example. If you would say the testimony of this witness -- well, I'll

11 invite you to tell the Court what, in your view -- to what extent, in your

12 view, the -- especially the new elements of the evidence have contributed

13 to the presentation of the Prosecution's case. You'll understand that

14 there are quite a few options. If, for example, it would have been your

15 purpose just to present evidence that Mr. Krajisnik has ever been in that

16 police station, apart from what he did there, but just to prove his

17 presence, that would perhaps be different from his presence with a

18 specific purpose or ... We'd like to know that, because the Chamber wants

19 to, to the extent possible, avoid unnecessary recalling of witnesses, and

20 if a witness would have to be recalled for further cross-examination on an

21 issue which at least is in the eyes of the OTP not the issue they think

22 they have presented evidence on, then of course it would be not of great

23 use.

24 So you're invited to prepare for that. You'll get those questions

25 after the break. By the way, do it right after the break or after we

Page 8522

1 finish the examination-in-chief. We'll see that.

2 Then we'll adjourn until 10 minutes past 1.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.53 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 1.14 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, may I invite you to first answer the

6 question put to you by this Chamber before the break, and that, of course,

7 mainly is in relation to the testimony related to the presence of

8 Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Mandic at places where the witness was detained.

9 MS. EDGERTON: To speak first to the information about Krajisnik's

10 presence at the police station in Ilidza, I just want to underline that we

11 would, through this witness, not be seeking any further than that, the

12 indication of his presence at the station at a date between 23 July and 8

13 September 1992. But over the break, I had some consultations with another

14 member of my team whose knowledge extends to areas other than my own,

15 which is basically limited to Sarajevo, and he said that the fact of his

16 presence is something that, together with other evidence, might go to show

17 knowledge on the part of the accused of a detention facility in -- or in

18 Ilidza at the police station or other detention facilities in the area.

19 But more importantly, in a way, it would eventually be part of an argument

20 or be used with other evidence as part of an argument to show the

21 accused's influence over high-level police officials. My colleague

22 advised me that the date, the time frame of the alleged visit of

23 Mr. Krajisnik to this police station would correspond temporally with the

24 shift of police power from Ilidza up to the north-east part of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Bijeljina. And --

Page 8523

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- we have limited information about

2 reason of, well, what is said to be the visit of Mr. Krajisnik, apart from

3 other matters as far as the reliability of the observations. Wasn't the

4 reason that this particular police chief, but perhaps you could tell us

5 what was, according to his evidence, exactly the reason of the visit, as

6 he was told by others, which of course is hearsay, but ...

7 MS. EDGERTON: I understand, and I don't have the transcript to

8 scroll up in front of me, but I understand his testimony to be that

9 Mr. Krajisnik's presence there had to do with the removal of Tomo Kovac,

10 who was at the time the police head there.


12 MS. EDGERTON: Removal, promotion, transfer.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, promotion and removal is not exactly

14 the same.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry. Yes. Promotion.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Promotion, of course, is -- do you know what, in your

17 evaluation, promotion to what? Wasn't it in ministerial post somewhere.

18 MS. EDGERTON: I believe the witness described it as a ministerial

19 position.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it's your perception that then the

21 relevance of such a visit would not be primarily that you'd say: I'd like

22 to see who potentially would become a minister, and if it is a person that

23 is a police officer at that time, then the emphasis is rather on the

24 control of the police forces than on being interested to know who is going

25 to be a minister?

Page 8524

1 MS. EDGERTON: We would be relying on -- your indulgence for a

2 moment.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MS. EDGERTON: It's a little bit of both, in fact.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just put it very sharp. If the person would

6 have to become a minister would have been a -- well, let's say a director

7 of a beer brewery, if you go and see such a person, would that primarily

8 indicate your interest in beer factories or would it rather be interested

9 in persons who become a minister? I know that the comparison, of course,

10 is, as all comparisons, not a perfect one, but ...

11 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, Your Honour, it would represent an

12 interest in the person who is to become a minister. And not being aware

13 of other evidence which might be coming before this Trial Chamber, there

14 may well be other evidence presented and I understand it is the plan to

15 show that, apart from mere interest, that the accused was in effect in a

16 position to assure the promotion and its being effected.

17 JUDGE ORIE: But that's not an inference that you could make on

18 the basis of this evidence.

19 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: No. So therefore ... Yes. About the existence of

21 detention facilities, wasn't the evidence of the witness that the visitor

22 might not have even noticed him being there in detention?

23 MS. EDGERTON: He -- yes. He did mention, though, that he was

24 within close proximity of another facility, the graphic arts facility,

25 which in documentation that was under discussion and Your Honour issued a

Page 8525

1 ruling on, is listed as one of the other detention facilities in that

2 area.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You would say that if you visit a police station in

4 the same area, you should be aware of the existence of a --

5 MS. EDGERTON: I think it's in immediate proximity, in fact,

6 Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we have not heard any evidence?

8 MS. EDGERTON: No. I was about to say, the witness said because

9 he was in fact so well hidden you might not have known of his existence

10 there.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So that also means that from this evidence at least,

12 it's difficult to draw the inference that someone who visited that police

13 station under those circumstances might be aware of any detention at all,

14 apart from that you might perhaps in all police stations expect some

15 detention facilities, but not only the specifics there can stand as this

16 and about any specifics.

17 MS. EDGERTON: As it stands.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As it stands. Yes, that's of course. Then

19 that's about -- if it's the visit of Mr. Krajisnik. And the second issue,

20 the second surprise.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Given -- your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 MS. EDGERTON: My submission with respect to the evidence of the

24 visit of Mr. Mandic is that that's far more important and direct evidence,

25 especially in light of the conversation between Krajisnik and Mandic, that

Page 8526

1 would go to show knowledge on the part of the accused of the existence of

2 a detention facility in which civilians who had been cleansed from the

3 municipality were being held.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Therefore --

5 MS. EDGERTON: Far less speculation about that, in fact, I think,

6 Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And -- yes, I do understand. But would it then be

8 mainly on the basis of his visit or on the basis of the telephone

9 conversation intercepted or both or on what would the one add to the

10 information contained in the other?

11 MS. EDGERTON: Corroborative of one another, Your Honour, aren't

12 they? Especially when they're talking about contemporaneous time period.

13 This is a -- it covers a time period in which the witness was in fact

14 detained there. And they will be corroborated by other documentary and

15 witness evidence that's going to form part of the Prosecution case.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may proceed. Mr. Usher, could you please

19 escort the witness into the courtroom.

20 As far as the order of -- I do understand for tomorrow another

21 witness was scheduled. Of course, we have to decide first how to proceed

22 with cross-examination, whether we would invite the Defence to start with

23 that. I might say a few words about it at a later stage of this morning.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

Page 8527

1 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Now we'll be playing one final

2 intercepted conversation for Mr. Music, which has not been played before

3 this Trial Chamber before.

4 JUDGE ORIE: It is not contained on any of the CDs that have been

5 presented into evidence? I see Ms. Javier nodding no. Yes.

6 MS. EDGERTON: And I understand we have yet to deliver the CD.


8 MS. EDGERTON: But we'll be playing the audio, and you're in

9 possession of the B/C/S and English-language transcripts.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then the transcripts will get in the

11 original language the addition A and the translation will be A.1. Perhaps

12 we could already attribute a number to it, Mr. Registrar, that would be

13 for the CD number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This document will be then be

15 referenced under reference P411, having indeed a translation in English.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Has a copy been given to the witness?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Not yet. I think -- Mr. Usher, could you give the

19 witness a B/C/S copy.

20 Mr. Registrar, do you have any copies for us? Yes.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. We're going to play now a conversation dated

22 July 1st, 1992, that purports to be between Radovan Karadzic and Momcilo

23 Mandic.

24 Q. Do you have a copy of the transcript in front of you, Mr. Music?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8528

1 MS. EDGERTON: All right. If we could play the conversation now.

2 [Intercept played]

3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

4 Unidentified female: Hello.

5 Sipcic: Good afternoon, gorgeous.

6 Unidentified female: Good afternoon.

7 Sipcic: Sipcic.

8 Unidentified female: Excuse me?

9 Sipcic: Colonel Sipcic.

10 Unidentified female: Oh, good afternoon. How are you?

11 Sipcic: I'm okay. Thank you.

12 Unidentified female: I'm not used to this form of address, you

13 know...

14 Sipcic: Tell me, is your boss in?

15 Unidentified female: Yes, the minister is in. Please, hold on,

16 Colonel.

17 Sipcic: Thank you.

18 Momcilo Mandic: Hello.

19 Sipcic: Hello, Mr. Minister.

20 Momcilo Mandic: Hello, General.

21 Sipcic: Where have you been?

22 Momcilo Mandic: I'm right here. Yesterday I ... You weren't

23 working. You weren't there?

24 Sipcic: What do you mean I wasn't? Yesterday was worst day of my

25 life.

Page 8529

1 Momcilo Mandic: Either yesterday or the day before. It must have

2 been yesterday you weren't there. Your fellow countryman would have

3 known. Yes, yes. It was around 1200 hours.

4 Sipcic: I was in the field. Will you stop by?

5 Momcilo Mandic: I will.

6 Sipcic: Here, the president wants to talk to you. Hello.

7 Momcilo Mandic: Sure, I'll come by. When will you be free?

8 Sipcic: I'll be here all the time.

9 Momcilo Mandic: All right, I'll come when they are done.

10 Sipcic: All right.

11 Momcilo Mandic: Deal.

12 Sipcic: Hold on, hold on.

13 Momcilo Mandic: I'll see you.

14 Radovan Karadzic: Hello.

15 Momcilo Mandic: Yes.

16 Radovan Karadzic: Good afternoon.

17 Momcilo Mandic: All the best, Mr. President.

18 Radovan Karadzic: What's up Momo?

19 Momcilo Mandic: Well, not much. I've just been to a government

20 session and I'm here now.

21 Radovan Karadzic: Uh-huh.

22 Momcilo Mandic: We're working on an exchange now. We're

23 evacuating some Serbs from Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija.

24 Radovan Karadzic: Oh, that's very important.

25 Momcilo Mandic: Yes.

Page 8530

1 Radovan Karadzic: We'll immediately mobilise those fit for combat

2 and the rest of them...

3 Momcilo Mandic: Yes, yes, we're evacuating them.

4 Radovan Karadzic: How many will there be?

5 Momcilo Mandic: Well, I don't really know. We have many on the

6 list. There are 300 people from Hadzici, Muslims, who have been kept here

7 for seven days. No one's inquired about them, no one seems to care. I

8 don't know what to do.

9 Radovan Karadzic: Why don't --.

10 Momcilo Mandic: No one's interested in them, these Muslims.

11 Radovan Karadzic: Yeah.

12 Momcilo Mandic: So we'll try to exchange them for these people

13 from Hrasnica and ...

14 Radovan Karadzic: Have you found that Croat in Kula for me?

15 Momcilo Mandic: He's not there.

16 Radovan Karadzic: Tomic. He must be in Kula.

17 Momcilo Mandic: President, he's definitely not there. All the

18 Croats are gone. There are no Croats in Kula.

19 Radovan Karadzic: No, no. He was arrested early earlier. He's

20 not in Dobrinja.

21 Momcilo Mandic: President, all Croats have been exchanged. Here,

22 let me check again and I'll call you back in five minutes.

23 Radovan Karadzic: All right. If he's not there, let's then look

24 for him somewhere else.

25 Momcilo Mandic: Well, does the person who is asking about Tomic

Page 8531

1 know where he was taken to, where he was picked up?

2 Radovan Karadzic: There were three brothers. Two of them were

3 released in Ilidza and the third one was kept in Ilidza and transferred to

4 Kula. That's what happened. They were arrested in Ilidza.

5 Momcilo Mandic: President, I'll call you back in five minutes.

6 Radovan Karadzic: All right. Tell me, what was going on, what

7 was I going to say. Do you know if Karlo's people have arrived down

8 there?

9 Momcilo Mandic: I don't know.

10 Radovan Karadzic: That thing down there should be strengthened,

11 all that ...

12 Momcilo Mandic: Yes, yes, yes. I don't really know, because I

13 just arrived from a government session ...

14 Radovan Karadzic: That thing with the Greeks should be

15 strengthened.

16 Momcilo Mandic: Uh-huh. I really don't know.

17 Radovan Karadzic: All right.

18 Momcilo Mandic: Our Mico has left, hasn't he?

19 Radovan Karadzic: Well, yes, but I don't know why he's -- after

20 all.

21 Momcilo Mandic: Well, I don't ...

22 Radovan Karadzic: He's not suitable for this kind of thing.

23 Momcilo Mandic: I don't get this thing, Mr. President.

24 Radovan Karadzic: I mean, there we have, if we need to have

25 someone up there to coordinate things we can. But we need someone to work

Page 8532

1 permanently on the establishment of such a service.

2 Momcilo Mandic: How long will you be there, President?

3 Radovan Karadzic: I'll be here for a while.

4 Momcilo Mandic: I was going to come there.

5 Radovan Karadzic: I'll be here for a while.

6 Momcilo Mandic: I'll be there in half an hour or so and I'll call

7 you back in five or ten minutes.

8 Radovan Karadzic: Deal.

9 Momcilo Mandic: Have a good one. See you."

10 MS. EDGERTON: I just note, I understood the procedure to be that

11 we would have an indication of when the speakers change and we didn't have

12 that. I --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what is usually done, especially since

14 sometimes there were some -- there was some confusion about it. It not

15 having been done, Ms. Loukas, if there would be any submission in relation

16 to what part of the conversation is attributed to what person, then please

17 let us know. Otherwise, we'll take it from the transcript that at least

18 the change in interlocutors is correct.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


22 Q. Mr. Music, you've clearly heard everything that was said in this

23 conversation?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, could you tell us: As of July 1st, 1992, how many days had

Page 8533

1 you been at Kula?

2 A. The 1st of July, from the 1st of July until the 21st of July. I

3 spent only three nights in Lukavica and then they transferred us to Kula.

4 But when they transferred us to Kula, we were in two rooms. That means

5 that -- I mean, we who were separate. Rather those 47 were separated and

6 we the rest of us --

7 Q. Mr. Music, sorry. Let me perhaps be a little bit more clear when

8 I ask you this question. In your statements which have been filed with

9 the Trial Chamber, you've said that you were transferred to Kula from

10 Lukavica after two or three days at Lukavica. Is that correct?

11 A. Three nights.

12 Q. So by the 1st of July, then, 1992, how many nights had you been at

13 Kula?

14 A. I spent three nights in Lukavica, and then after that I was

15 transferred to Kula. In Kula, they divided us up into two rooms, so it

16 was overcrowded.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, the question was not how many people there

18 were, but by the 1st of July, how many days you had already spent in Kula.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 25th we were transferred, so

20 I was there five or six days. I already stated that on the 30th, they

21 released 75 elderly prisoners.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, the question was just about how long you

23 had been in Kula on the 1st of July. You have now answered that question.

24 Ms. Edgerton please put the next question to the witness.


Page 8534

1 Q. One last question. Were all the men with you during that time

2 from Hadzici?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Music. That concludes the questions that I have.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take any decision on whether to invite

6 Ms. Loukas to start cross-examination at this moment, may I first inquire,

7 Ms. Edgerton: Your next witness, you would prefer to let him wait until

8 whatever is still to be done in relation to this witness has been done

9 or ...

10 MS. EDGERTON: I think Mr. Hannis had better address that point,

11 Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Hannis. Perhaps we could invite the witness

13 to take his earphones off at this moment.

14 Mr. Music, we are dealing with a procedural issue that might have

15 some impact on your presence in this courtroom. May I invite you to take

16 your earphones off for a while.

17 Mr. Hannis. Ms. Edgerton.

18 MS. EDGERTON: If you'll excuse me for a moment, Your Honour. I

19 can go and speak with Mr. Tieger, who will be dealing with that next

20 witness. I won't think it will take me more than three minutes to get

21 down there and back.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although of course you could have expected this

23 situation to come up. So a bit of anticipation would -- but let's not

24 lose any more time. If you would please try to get the answer to the

25 question as soon as possible.

Page 8535

1 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, perhaps it might be possible to

2 take a short break and Ms. Edgerton can actually call Mr. Tieger on the

3 phone that's in the courtroom and it might take a little bit less time.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could have a short break, then.

5 Would three minutes do, Ms. Edgerton? Yes. We'll then have a break for

6 three or four minutes.

7 --- Break taken at 1.38 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I invite the witness to take his earphones

12 still off, because it's ... Yes.

13 MS. EDGERTON: I've spoken with Mr. Tieger, who in fact indicates

14 that he's spoken with Mr. Stewart and there's -- Mr. Tieger is not aware

15 at this moment of the location of the next witness. In fact, he could be

16 travelling. He is travelling at this time. So they prefer to hold off

17 and start tomorrow, and I think we'd prefer to finish with this witness at

18 this time.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then it would need a recall of this witness,

20 which is of course a waste of -- and of course what the Chamber is mainly

21 concerned about is to what extent a cross-examination of the witness on

22 the issues involved would contribute -- well, let's say would assist the

23 Defence in lessening the probative value on those issues compared to the

24 situation if the witness would not be cross-examined at all on these

25 issues. Because, to be -- let me try to -- first of all, whatever is said

Page 8536

1 at this moment always is situated in the moment, this very moment. That

2 means that whatever the Chamber would give as its provisional impression

3 would always be an impression that's based on what we've heard until now.

4 And as far as the -- yes, Ms. Loukas. Well, to say that in many respects,

5 and limited to the evidence we have heard on those occasions, I have to

6 convey to the parties that the probative value of the examination-in-chief

7 on these matters is, for various reasons, I would say almost non-existent.

8 And therefore, of course, the Chamber wonders, and perhaps Ms. Loukas

9 could express herself on that, whether the witness could not be

10 cross-examined on the other parts and then whether there would really be a

11 need to influence the provisional mind of the Chamber where, as it may be

12 clear to the parties, it could more likely go in a wrong direction for the

13 Defence than in a good direction for the Defence. Because there's hardly

14 any direction to go there any more. Ms. Loukas.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Well, I go back to the point I

16 made prior to the witness giving evidence this morning. I indicated that

17 there were in fact two courses in my submission that the Trial Chamber

18 might take. And that is, firstly, to exclude the evidence, in view of the

19 recent nature of the evidence, in fact yesterday, after -- 12 years after

20 the event and after four statements. But my point in relation to that, I

21 think, Your Honour, has of course been strengthened by the nature of the

22 way in which the witness gave his evidence and the additional surprise we

23 were subject to later on. And in those circumstances, Your Honour, and

24 looking at Rule 89(D), I would invite Your Honours -- 89(D), of course,

25 stating a Chamber may exclude evidence if its probative value is

Page 8537

1 substantially outweighed by the need to ensure a fair trial.

2 Your Honour has indicated that the probative value of the evidence

3 in relation to Mr. Krajisnik is at a near negligible level and in those

4 circumstances, Your Honour, I would submit that the evidence should be

5 excluded. Of course, if the evidence is left in, it's of course subject

6 to the provisional nature of the indication that Your Honour has given.

7 It's, of course, also the nature that the fact that the Prosecution

8 insists on the evidence and the fact that they wish to join it up again

9 perhaps at some later point or some part of -- of a tessera of a mosaic,

10 or what have you. So, in those circumstances, Your Honour, I think the

11 only fair approach in terms of when one looks at 89(D) and the balancing

12 exercise that you have to undertake there in terms of probative value and

13 the need to ensure a fair trial, I would submit the only course for the

14 Trial Chamber to take in these circumstances, having heard the witness,

15 having heard the nature of the evidence, having heard the constant

16 amelioration of his evidence, that Your Honours would exclude the

17 evidence.


19 MS. LOUKAS: And in those circumstances, Your Honour, my

20 cross-examination would be entirely limited. But if this is left open,

21 then, Your Honour, then there must be a cross-examination and there must

22 be a cross-examination that is properly investigated.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand, Ms. Loukas. I can imagine

24 that the Prosecution would take the position that it's not difficult to

25 make a final determination as to the probative value at this moment,

Page 8538

1 because evidence often does not -- stands alone. On the other hand, it's

2 not very attractive to indicate already that this witness would be

3 recalled for further cross-examination on other evidence which we have not

4 heard yet. May I suggest to the parties whether it would be a solution,

5 so that I just can hear your opinion about that - although it has to be

6 brief, because we are close to 2.00 - that this Chamber will decide to

7 exclude that evidence on the relevant portions. We would then identify

8 that exactly. And then to say that the Prosecution could apply for

9 further admission on the basis of evidence we would hear in a later stage

10 and which would change the importance, the relevance of that evidence,

11 since, as I said before, that, as it stands now, it seems to be of a

12 rather low level. But of course, it might not be fully fair to say that

13 it would remain at that level forever, where the OTP has indicated that,

14 in relation with other evidence, it might be more important. But of

15 course we do not know what that evidence is. We do not know when that

16 evidence will come.

17 Could I just have the response of the parties. What if the

18 Chamber would be inclined to act in this way?

19 MS. EDGERTON: It's the inverse of what I was going to propose,

20 that be that Your Honours, given -- your indication of the relatively low

21 probative value at this point, that you leave it in, and if later, as a

22 result of additional evidence, the Defence wishes to recall the witness --

23 JUDGE ORIE: You would try to have it the other way around.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Exactly.

25 JUDGE ORIE: But then of course it would not solve the problem

Page 8539

1 because Ms. Loukas would have to cross-examine on all aspects of it.


3 JUDGE ORIE: And of course that's the practical problem we are

4 faced with at this moment. Ms. Loukas, could you express any view

5 on --

6 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour, I will express a view. I think a

7 provisional exclusion at this point --

8 JUDGE ORIE: No, it would then be exclusion, but not excluding in

9 full a later application to admit it again, or admit it again -- to admit

10 it. And then, of course, not after --

11 MS. LOUKAS: Subject to --

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- yes, that, of course, is certainly -- there would

13 be first an opportunity to -- I mean, before considering that, of course,

14 you would have an opportunity to have this witness recalled and

15 cross-examine him on the relevant portions as well.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. Well, I think that may be an

17 appropriate course, the course that Your Honour has outlined. Exclusion

18 at this point, subject to a possible application by the Prosecution to

19 reintroduce, in addition with subject to that of course the property

20 opportunity for the Defence to cross-examine in the circumstances.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. That, I would say, goes without saying.

22 Okay. The Chamber will consider the matter. How much time would you need

23 for cross-examination with an exclusion of, well, let's say the two

24 visits, more than two visits, but the visits of two persons mentioned?

25 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.

Page 8540

1 JUDGE ORIE: If we take it out.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, with this evidence excluded, I

3 would have thought I'd come in easily within the hour.


5 MS. LOUKAS: I would have thought between half an hour and an

6 hour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could the witness please put his earphones

8 on again.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber decides that the testimony of this

11 witness in relation to the presence of Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Mandic in

12 places where the witness was detained is excluded. At the same time, not

13 excluding the Office of the Prosecutor for an application to have that

14 inserted at a later stage with all the consequences, that is, further

15 cross-examination on those issues by the Defence. The Chamber also would

16 like to, Ms. Loukas to start the cross-examination tomorrow morning at

17 9.00. Since I take it that indeed the Defence was prepared for the

18 cross-examination of what appeared in the statements of the witness until

19 yesterday.

20 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. Other than the mysteriously

21 appearing further information.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, we'll define more exactly what in the

23 transcript will be excluded, but I think it's clear to the parties.

24 Mr. Music, we'll have to finish for the day. You heard about a

25 decision of the Trial Chamber excluding some of your evidence. Don't be

Page 8541

1 worried about that to the extent that there's anything --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I would like to

3 apologise to Their Honours. But may I just say a word, please? After so

4 many years, I just came to the conclusion now who it was that singled out

5 these 47 men. Can I tell you?

6 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Music. At this moment, you cannot add

7 anything to your evidence at this moment. Perhaps if there would be --

8 tomorrow further questions will be put to you by Ms. Loukas, and perhaps

9 even a few more questions by Ms. Edgerton as well. I just wanted to let

10 you know that it's --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- that it's for reasons of application of

13 appropriate rules of procedure that this decision was taken and it has got

14 nothing to do with you as a person. I just wanted to emphasise this. May

15 I instruct you, Mr. Music, not to speak with anyone, not with -- well,

16 whether it be members of the Defence team, the Prosecution team, or other

17 citizens, or people passing by, not to speak with anyone about the

18 testimony you have been giving until now and you're still about to give

19 expectantly tomorrow morning. We'd like to see you back at 9.00 tomorrow

20 morning. And unless there are any procedural issues, we'll stand

21 adjourned.

22 MR. STEWART: Yes, there are.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I see that you are at the right side of

24 the glass again, so --

25 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, yes. In fact, I only came in

Page 8542

1 because I wanted to be an insider rather than an outsider for a few

2 minutes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You're an insider now.

4 MR. STEWART: But since I came to court, Your Honour, I've had

5 some information which took me by surprise. I understand that

6 Mr. Krajisnik has submitted or sent in to the Trial Chamber a - sorry I

7 now can see Judge El Mahdi as well. Good morning, or good afternoon - a

8 CD containing material in relation to a witness whose evidence was heard

9 recently.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I am not aware at this moment, but I've not been here

11 last week, so it --

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I can short-circuit it this afternoon,

13 given the time. And could I ask this, that I would like to say a little

14 bit more about it but it's perfectly convenient to do it in the morning.

15 If I could ask that the Trial Chamber, by which I include the whole Trial

16 Chamber, if the Trial Chamber would please not look at that CD and not

17 look at that material between now and tomorrow morning and then I can make

18 my submissions in relation to that matter. I think -- I suggest that's

19 the more practical way of dealing with it.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: I verified first of all whether no member of the

22 Trial Chamber has seen the material, apart from looking at CDs is not very

23 interesting, but we have not taken any knowledge of any concept of a CD

24 that supposedly has been sent to us. We'll not do it until tomorrow.

25 MR. STEWART: Would that include the offices of the Trial Chamber

Page 8543

1 as well, Your Honour? We would prefer to make the request --

2 JUDGE ORIE: I cannot confirm to you that they have not seen it.

3 MR. STEWART: I understand, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: What I could do is instruct them if they have not

5 seen it, to refrain from any further attention to it, and if they have

6 seen it, not to tell us about it.


8 JUDGE ORIE: And to keep it --

9 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, would be my request. They can't

10 undo what they've done, so thank you for that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That will be their instructions for this

12 afternoon.

13 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll stand adjourned until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of

17 November 2004, at 9.00 a.m.