Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9258

 1                          Tuesday, 7 December 2004

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

 7    Momcilo Krajisnik.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9            Good afternoon to everyone in this courtroom and those assisting

10    us just outside the courtroom.

11            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, may I mention that we have a new member

12    of the team.  Sadly, Ms. Dixon will be leaving us shortly but I'm

13    delighted that Ms. Kelly Pitcher has joined the Defence team.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome, Ms. Pitcher, in the courtroom.

15            Mr. Stewart, are you ready to cross-examine the witness,

16    Mr. Mandic?

17            MR. STEWART:  When he arrives, Your Honour, yes.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Mandic

19    into the courtroom.

20                          [The witness entered court]

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Mandic.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Back again in court.  You are alone at this moment.

24    Mr. Tomic doesn't accompany you?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He will come the day after tomorrow

Page 9259

 1    in the course of the day.  He remained in Sarajevo because he has some

 2    business to attend to at the court.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So he'll arrive at the 9th of December.

 4    Therefore, if you would have any question in relation to whether or not

 5    you should answer a question, whether your answer would tend to

 6    incriminate yourself, you always can address the Court.

 7            Mr. Stewart, before I give you the opportunity to cross-examine

 8    Mr. Mandic, perhaps since -- I first remind you, Mr. Mandic, that you're

 9    still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

10    your testimony, at the beginning of your testimony in chief, that you'll

11    speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and that's

12    just as applicable during cross-examination.

13            Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

14                          WITNESS:  MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]

15                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                          Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart:

17            MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18       Q.   Mr. Mandic, you told the Trial Chamber a little bit about the

19    decision to transfer you to Belgrade later on in 1992.  Do you remember

20    that?

21       A.   Yes.  Yes, sir.

22       Q.   And that decision you described -- well, you've described it in

23    various ways, but you said in your evidence, and this, for everybody's

24    reference, was at page 62 of the transcript of Wednesday's evidence,

25    Wednesday, the 23rd of November.  That doesn't help you very much,

Page 9260

 1    Mr. Mandic.  I understand that.  But it's helpful for other people for the

 2    reference.

 3            You said that on the 16th of November, 1992, at the Assembly

 4    meeting held in Zvornik, that Professor Djeric, who was then the prime

 5    minister, submitted a resignation, and that led to the fall of the

 6    government.  And you were told that the next prime minister designate

 7    didn't want you on his cabinet and the top leaders of Republika Srpska

 8    "recommended me to go to Belgrade."

 9            What had been the position as between you and the outgoing

10    prime minister, Professor Djeric, in the run-up to that Assembly of the

11    16th of November?

12       A.   It seems to me that it was quite a fair one, and before the

13    Zvornik Assembly session, I agreed that I should go to Belgrade and that

14    the Assembly should discuss this in September in Bijeljina.  However, the

15    MPs did not vote in favour of my departure to Belgrade, and I continued

16    discharging my function as the minister of justice.  Prior to that, prior

17    to the Zvornik session, Mr. Djeric had suggested that I become a minister

18    without a portfolio and go to Belgrade to represent Republika Srpska and

19    that my position of the minister of justice should be taken by Milan

20    Trbojevic, the then prime minister.

21       Q.   So from what you've just told the Trial Chamber, that -- when you

22    say "I agreed that I should go to Belgrade," that appears from what you've

23    just said to have been an agreement between you and Mr. Djeric.

24       A.   This was suggested to me by Mr. Djeric in autumn 1992.  As a prime

25    minister, it seems to me, at least, that he had more confidence in -- and

Page 9261

 1    trust in Minister Trbojevic, who was the deputy prime minister and was

 2    therefore superior to me, and suggested that he then become the minister

 3    of justice.  In the meantime, my family had moved to live in Belgrade and

 4    I agreed with that idea.  However, it did not come into effect before the

 5    16th of November.

 6       Q.   So is it this:  That from a purely political point of view as far

 7    as retaining or losing the job was concerned, you were not especially

 8    enthusiastic to give up your position as minister of justice?

 9       A.   I agreed with the idea, and this was placed on the agenda and put

10    to vote at the Bijeljina Assembly session in September, it seems to me.

11    And then the MPs decided that I should continue discharging that function.

12    I wasn't overly enthusiastic to go to Belgrade, but I agreed with the idea

13    since my family had already moved there.

14       Q.   That's what I was getting at, Mr. Mandic.  So, but the overall

15    picture so far as your political work position was concerned and your

16    family circumstances were concerned, overall, the move to Belgrade was not

17    such a bad thing from your viewpoint; is that right?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   How is that wrong, then?  Are you agreeing with what I -- there's

20    always an ambiguity there.  Do you agree with what I've just put to you,

21    that overall, taking into account the political position, your work, and

22    your family circumstances, that overall, the proposal for you to move to

23    Belgrade wasn't such a bad thing from your point of view?  Do you agree

24    with that?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9262

 1       Q.   And then what happened was that the outgoing prime minister, as he

 2    turned out to be, Mr. Djeric, having made that proposal and you having

 3    made that agreement with him, at the very least, the incoming prime

 4    minister after Mr. Djeric's resignation, he didn't want you to stay in

 5    Bosnia, did he?  He didn't want you to stay in his cabinet, did he?

 6       A.   That's right.

 7       Q.   So in a nutshell, his position, the new prime minister, was, in

 8    effect, entirely in accord with what you had already agreed with

 9    Mr. Djeric?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   You were asked about quite a lot of times in your evidence,

12    actually, you've been asked about the phrase, in English it's "top

13    leadership of Republika Srpska."  Mr. Mandic, to try to get that as clear:

14    Do you regard the phrase "top leadership" as some fixed concept or fixed

15    definition, where you could list the members of the top leadership, or do

16    you say that it is a matter of the context of the particular point at

17    issue who is the top leadership in relation to a particular matter, who is

18    the top leadership in relation to another matter?  Which of those is it?

19    Is it -- in your mind, is it a fixed body of people or is it a more

20    flexible concept?

21       A.   When I was talking about the core leadership, that's to say the

22    leadership of Republika Srpska, I meant the political establishment and

23    the official leadership, that is to say, a group of people that mostly

24    decided about the policies run by the state.

25       Q.   One reason I ask is this, Mr. Mandic:  That when you were asked in

Page 9263












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Page 9264

 1    relation to this issue of your going to Belgrade, you were asked who made

 2    the decision that you would no longer serve as minister of justice and

 3    would instead take the position in Belgrade.  And you've given some

 4    evidence this afternoon on how that came about.  You then talked about the

 5    top leadership of Republika Srpska, and that was the phrase as it came

 6    across in the English transcript, and -- you're getting it in translation,

 7    of course, today.  And you said:  "I'm referring to the Presidency, to

 8    Mr. Karadzic, Biljana Plavsic, and Nikola Koljevic."  So at that point,

 9    you were identifying the top leadership as those three people:

10    Mr. Karadzic, Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic; correct?

11       A.   Yes.  If I may explain in more detail this particular

12    relationship, Mr. Stewart.  Most of the influence exerted for Mr. Lukic to

13    become prime minister was by a member of the Presidency of Republika

14    Srpska, Mr. Koljevic, who had previously been the liaison officer in

15    Sarajevo.  In that particular moment -- I apologise.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No.  Mr. Tieger, I thought -- you answered the

17    question.  You're on your feet.  I take it that you'd like to have

18    references to the pages where Mr. Stewart is referring to.  Is that --

19            MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I'd both like to have a particular

20    reference, although I know the general part of the transcript to which

21    Mr. Stewart is referring.  I should also mention, by the way, that I have

22    the sequential printout of the transcripts, at least with me for this

23    session, rather than the daily printouts, which Mr. Stewart is referring.

24    So it may take me a bit of time to find the corresponding pages in the

25    sequential transcript.  But I also wanted to point out that Mr. Stewart's

Page 9265

 1    reference to the witness's comments about leadership in the context of

 2    this discussion only reflected a portion of the witness's responses with

 3    respect to that issue, and the witness -- I won't get into the details of

 4    it, but continued to explain the nature of the decision that was made,

 5    those persons who made it, and their -- and who the leadership was at that

 6    time.  And that's found on page 86, 10 of the transcript.  So if the

 7    witness is being directed for clarification purposes to portions of his

 8    earlier testimony, then it should certainly embrace the full portion of

 9    his comments with respect to that issue.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I would allow Mr. Stewart to start at a certain

11    point and to explore that matter, and not necessarily put everything to

12    the witness, because it might be asked a bit too much.  On the other hand,

13    Mr. Stewart, I take it that you will give us page numbers and especially

14    23rd of November was not a Wednesday but a Tuesday, as far as I remember.

15    So I take it that you wanted to take us to the Tuesday rather than to the

16    Wednesday, the 23rd of November.

17            MR. STEWART:  I thought Tuesday was the -- well, perhaps I've

18    just --

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Tuesday was the 23rd.  You called it Wednesday.

20            MR. STEWART:  Did I?  I'm sorry.  I miss -- in put, Your Honour.

21    No, I'd certainly meant the 23rd; the date is the operative thing.  The --

22    I apologise for not giving the specific page number.  It was probably just

23    casualness because it followed on within about one or two pages of the

24    reference which I gave a few minutes ago.  Your Honour, so far as the

25    sequential transcript that Mr. Tieger has got, I'm afraid I can't help

Page 9266

 1    him.  We start work on preparing cross-examination before we have that.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  As I said earlier, that if you have the beginning of

 3    the day marked, then page 70 is just 70 pages further down.  It's quite

 4    easy.

 5            MR. STEWART:  Absolutely.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing you should do is mark the beginning of

 7    the day.  So then Mr. Tieger will find it, if you will assist him to the

 8    extent possible.  Please proceed.

 9            MR. STEWART:  Page 62, it was, at the foot of page 62 -- excuse

10    me, Your Honour.  I'll just have to scroll back a bit and see where we

11    were.

12       Q.   Yes, Mr. Mandic.  You were indicating in your evidence Mr. -- yes.

13    Mr. Lukic was -- in summary, he was very much Mr. Koljevic's man,

14    Mr. Koljevic's candidate, wasn't he?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And you, you were not -- there was no question of you being in

17    Mr. Lukic's cabinet; it was clear that you were not going to be invited

18    into his cabinet, wasn't it?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   And it was also clear, wasn't it, that indirectly, you were not

21    going to get any support from Mr. Koljevic for your being retained in the

22    cabinet?

23       A.   Or Ms. Plavsic, for that matter.

24       Q.   Well, I was going to suggest to you, Mr. Mandic, it was even less

25    likely, perhaps, that you were going to get support from Ms. Plavsic,

Page 9267

 1    wasn't it?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   So that the -- in the end, the decision taken so far as it was in

 4    any sense taken by the top leaders, whatever that means in that context of

 5    the Republika Srpska government, was in effect an endorsement or

 6    ratification, if you like, of what had been agreed between you and

 7    Mr. Djeric?

 8       A.   That's correct.

 9       Q.   And when you say, and this is at page 67 of the transcript, you

10    said that Mr. Krajisnik had called you, had called you and Mr. Stanisic,

11    and informed them, that's you and him, that the Presidency made a

12    decision, that's to say the top leadership of Republika Srpska, to the

13    effect that at the request of Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic, "the

14    two of us go to Belgrade to hold different office and that we cannot

15    continue serving on the executive during that period."  Is it that --

16    well, first of all, Mr. Krajisnik, who, at the beginning of your evidence,

17    you didn't specifically mention in relation to this matter, Mr. Krajisnik

18    definitely made the call to you to inform you of the final decision to go

19    to Belgrade, did he?

20       A.   In Mr. Djeric's government, I was supposed to become a minister

21    without a portfolio and become a head of the bureau in Belgrade.  I was

22    unable to obtain that position in Mr. Lukic's government, and Mr. Lukic

23    even disagreed with the idea that I should take that position.  So it was

24    on the basis of a political consensus that it was decided that I should

25    become head of the bureau of Republika Srpska in Belgrade and Mr. Stanisic

Page 9268

 1    would become the representative of the president of Republika Srpska,

 2    advisor for the relations with Serbia.  And that was at least something

 3    that Mr. Krajisnik recommended to me.

 4       Q.   So it was that the decision -- to get it clear:  The decision to

 5    go to Belgrade was reached in the way that you've described with

 6    Mr. Djeric, but then there was a change upon Mr. Lukic being about to

 7    replace Mr. Djeric, there was a change in the function that you actually

 8    undertook when you got to Belgrade; that's the position, is it?

 9       A.   Right.

10       Q.   And it was Mr. Krajisnik, was it, you say, who contacted you and

11    informed you of this change?

12       A.   Actually, Mr. Krajisnik, in whom I had the greatest trust,

13    explained the political situation to me, and the political decision,

14    specifically, of the prime minister, Lukic, in the inner circle of the

15    leadership of Republika Srpska, and I agreed, realising what the political

16    climate was, the general sentiment in the top leadership, and I left for

17    Belgrade.

18       Q.   So when you said in relation to the different position that you

19    were to have under Mr. Lukic's government, you said, just a few minutes

20    ago:  "And that was at least something that Mr. Krajisnik recommended to

21    me."  Is this right: That Mr. Krajisnik was -- and I'm paraphrasing, but

22    he was saying something to you along the lines of:  Well -- you addressed

23    each other in fairly familiar terms, something along the lines of:  Momo,

24    this is the way it is.  This is really -- this is the best we can do, and

25    you should accept this?

Page 9269












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Page 9270

 1       A.   Right.

 2       Q.   And he was effectively conveying to you, perhaps because he knew

 3    you, he was conveying to you what had been decided by the consensus, as

 4    you describe, with his view of what you should do?

 5       A.   Yes.  He was explaining to me what I should accept.

 6       Q.   Going back a little bit in time to your appointment, the earlier

 7    appointment you had as the assistant minister with responsibility for MUP,

 8    and that went back to February, March 1991, didn't it?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Is it correct that Mr. Krajisnik, as far as you could see and as

11    far as you were aware, had no particular role or part in that appointment?

12       A.   I did not know Mr. Krajisnik at the time.  I was a judge of a

13    lower court, lower criminal court in Sarajevo, and Vitomir Zepinic, who

14    would later became deputy minister for the interior, came to see me and

15    suggested that I take over some responsibilities in the crime control

16    section.  In end May, I went with Vito Zepinic to Djure Djakovica Street,

17    where the headquarters of the party was, and met Rajko Djukic, who was

18    chairman of the staffing committee.  I had an interview with those two

19    people, and as advised by Zepinic and some other people from the courts, I

20    accepted the transfer to the MUP, as somebody who had already served in

21    that department.

22            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, excuse me one moment, Mr. Mandic.

23    Ms. Cmeric suggests that it would be helpful if Mr. Mandic would be

24    invited to speak a little more slowly.  She is not one of the

25    interpreters, but generally speaking if Ms. Cmeric feels that, there's a

Page 9271

 1    good reason.

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters would appreciate it.  We just

 3    missed the name of a person whom the witness met together with

 4    Mr. Rajko Djukic.

 5            MR. STEWART:  Another consensus, Your Honour, there.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you give us the name you --

 7            Could the interpreters perhaps help me out where, on what line, we

 8    find the --

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Line 16, page 11.  The witness came to the

10    headquarters of the party and met Rajko Djukic and another person.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you tell us who you met at the

12    headquarters of the party, apart from Rajko Djukic.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dr. Radovan Karadzic, president of

14    the party.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mandic, this was caused by a rather high speed of

16    speech.  Could you please try to slow down a bit.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.  I will

18    try.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20            MR. STEWART:

21       Q.   Mr. Mandic, in many ways, I'm the last person to make a request

22    for anybody to speak more slowly, and I'll try and remember myself in this

23    court.

24            So, so far as your appointment as assistant minister with

25    responsibility for MUP was concerned, which we were dealing with, is it

Page 9272

 1    correct, therefore, that you have absolutely no knowledge and no reason to

 2    believe that there was any involvement by Mr. Krajisnik in that

 3    appointment?

 4       A.   No, I didn't know Mr. Krajisnik.  I even heard later that he was a

 5    bit sceptical about me, because I had been a policeman under the communist

 6    regime and they had a dose of mistrust concerning me.  That's something I

 7    learned later.  But I'm not aware that Mr. Krajisnik had any part in my

 8    appointment.  I believe it was rather Dr. Vitomir Zepinic who was

 9    responsible for it, because, as he put it, he needed a good policeman in

10    that job.  And other people in the leadership wanted a non-party person in

11    that position, because it was the time when there was an attempt to

12    depoliticise the judiciary and the police.  People from the political life

13    could not be appointed to positions in the police or the judiciary.

14       Q.   And you earlier in your evidence in this case, and this is at page

15    71 of Tuesday, the 23rd of November, you were asked whether you were

16    involved in ensuring that SDS selections for the MUP were actually

17    realised, and you said yes, you were.  And you were asked about

18    discussions with Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Djukic about those selections, and

19    you said that you did talk to Mr. Djukic and Mr. Karadzic, and also with

20    regional leaders of the Serbian Democratic Party from the particular

21    places from which the candidates came.

22            It's right, isn't it, Mr. Mandic, that there again in relation to

23    that matter, you didn't have discussions with Mr. Krajisnik, and

24    Mr. Krajisnik was not involved in that matter?  Is that correct?

25       A.   The rule was that every municipality with a majority Muslim

Page 9273

 1    population should appoint the head of the police for that area, whereas

 2    the second most numerous population should appoint the commander of the

 3    police, and the third most numerous ethnicity, ethnic community, should

 4    appoint the head of the crime control unit.  And there were always three

 5    candidates from the three national parties: SDS, HDZ, and SDA.  And the

 6    political leadership from the grass root level would always provide us

 7    with three names, and Mr. Zepinic and I would together nominate, based on

 8    recommendations, one of the three.  So that involved the input of regional

 9    authorities and various parties: Serbian, Croatian, and Muslim.  That was

10    the method for choosing staff for various senior positions at the time.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mandic, may I remind you:  The question was:

12    Mr. Krajisnik was not involved in that matter; is that correct?  Now

13    you've told us how it all went, but whether Mr. Krajisnik was or was not

14    involved, that question has not been answered yet, although I take it that

15    the answer is negative.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he wasn't.  He wasn't.  Only

17    leaders of the SDS on the regional level were involved.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that answer would have done and would have

19    taken less time.

20            Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

21            MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22       Q.   Then you were asked, and this is at page 72 of that same day's

23    transcript, Tuesday, the 23rd of November, you were asked about a meeting

24    of the Council of Ministers held on January the 11th, 1992, and you were

25    shown Prosecution Exhibit 412.

Page 9274

 1            MR. STEWART:  And I wonder if the witness, please, could be given

 2    that exhibit again.

 3       Q.   Do you recall this document, Mr. Mandic, from the other day?

 4    You've been shown a lot of documents over the last week or so.

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Well, in that case, I'll -- the most convenient course, I think,

 7    Mr. Mandic, is going to be for me just to remind you what you were asked

 8    about it rather than take time for you to read right through quite a

 9    lengthy document.  The particular -- well, first of all, just cast your

10    eye over those that were present, so that you can see -- and it includes

11    Mr. Stanisic and the point was drawn to your attention that among those in

12    attendance were Mr. Krajisnik.  Do you see that?  You were asked

13    specifically --

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   -- about -- thank you.  You were asked about point number 2,

16    towards -- well, it's probably on the first page.  It is in the English.

17    The following agenda was set for the meeting.  And then there are three

18    numbered items.  The second is execution of tasks resulting from the

19    declaration of the promulgation of the Republic of the Serbian People of

20    Bosnia and Herzegovina, and we now know, and have known for quite a long

21    time in this case, that that was on the 9th of January, 1992.

22            And then you were pointed to the second paragraph following that

23    identified agenda item.  So it's under the heading -- it's item 2

24    expectation execution of tasks resulting from the declaration of the

25    promulgation of the Republic of the Serbian People of Bosnia and

Page 9275

 1    Herzegovina."  That's an underlined heading.  Do you see which one I'm

 2    talking about, Mr. Mandic?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And you were asked whether the Council of Ministers had identified

 5    priorities which emerged or sprang from the declaration, and you were

 6    asked whether that included the defining of ethnic territory and the

 7    establishment of government organs in the territory; correct?  And it was

 8    pointed out that discussion included Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, and

 9    Mr. Djukic.  Just after that, I'll remind you of the document,

10    Mr. Mandic.   My first question is essentially a simple one.  Can we take

11    it that you -- you can tell the Trial Chamber no more than you are able to

12    read from these minutes of that meeting and -- well, I'll stop there.

13    That you were able to -- in relation to those matters, then, you were able

14    to read from the minutes?

15       A.   I was not a member either of the Council of Ministers, nor did I

16    attend these sessions, and I first saw these minutes when I received them

17    from a lawyer of the Office of the Prosecutor.  So that I can only comment

18    upon what I read.

19       Q.   And it's correct, isn't it, that Mr. Krajisnik did have a role in

20    relation to the establishment of government organs in the newly declared

21    Republika Srpska, because he was the president of the Assembly?

22       A.   Right.

23       Q.   You were asked about top leadership, and Mr. Tieger need not fear.

24    We're going to look at a number of references to that, Mr. Mandic.  At

25    page 75 of Tuesday's transcript, Tuesday, the 23rd of November, you were

Page 9276

 1    asked by Mr. Tieger that he'd like to know throughout the pendency of

 2    1992, who the top leadership was.  And you went on to describe that.  What

 3    I want to ask you first is:  What in -- let's take first of all a date, so

 4    that it helps to be more specific, April 1992.  What did you see as the

 5    responsibilities of Dr. Nikola Koljevic?

 6       A.   I don't know.

 7       Q.   And what did you see as - again, April 1992 - the responsibilities

 8    of Dr. Biljana Plavsic?

 9       A.   I wouldn't know.  She was in charge of some humanitarian affairs.

10    I know that she froze her membership in the Presidency and toured

11    Bosnia-Herzegovina, because prior to that there had been several armed

12    skirmishes in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And I seem to remember

13    that Biljana Plavsic, together with Fikret Abdic and some other officials

14    from the Presidency and the government went out into the field, trying to

15    ease inter-ethnic tensions.  I remember Foca, I remember February in

16    Bijeljina.  There was an incursion of paramilitary units in Bijeljina, and

17    I believe Mrs. Plavsic went there.  And I believe that those were her

18    activities over the course of those few months.

19       Q.   Now, I asked you about their responsibilities.  Can you say from

20    your recollection what actual formal position Dr. Koljevic held in April

21    1992?

22       A.   He was a member of the Presidency of Republika Srpska.

23       Q.   And Mrs. Plavsic?

24       A.   She too was a member of the Presidency of Republika Srpska.  I'm

25    not sure if the Presidency had been established already and Dr. Karadzic

Page 9277

 1    had been appointed president and the other two vice-presidents.  I'm not

 2    sure.  But I know that very soon, the Presidency was elected, and

 3    Dr. Karadzic was elected president.  He who had been only a political

 4    figure of the Serbian people until then.  I think it was in April that he

 5    assumed his post of president of the Republic.  And as for Biljana Plavsic

 6    and Dr. Koljevic, they provided for political continuity.  From the

 7    Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, they transferred to the newly

 8    established Presidency of the Serbian entity.

 9       Q.   And between -- I'll put a specific time frame on it, in case

10    that's helpful.  From April through to August 1992, what were the tasks

11    and responsibilities that you -- you yourself could see that Dr. Nikola

12    Koljevic was discharging?

13       A.   You have to believe me if I say that I really can't remember what

14    Nikola Koljevic was doing exactly at that time.  That was the time of the

15    beginning of the war, and the deepening rift among the three ethnic

16    communities.  Nikola Koljevic had his job in the government, and I really

17    don't remember what particular duties he was busy with.

18       Q.   Do you recall that over those few months Dr. Koljevic did become

19    engaged more significantly than others in the leadership in relations with

20    international representatives?

21       A.   Quite possible.  That's quite possible, but I'm not sure.  Dr.

22    Koljevic had a very good command of the English language.  I believe he

23    even studied and defended his doctoral thesis in England, and I believe

24    it's quite possible that he handled relations with the international

25    community.  But I really cannot confirm one way or another.

Page 9278

 1       Q.   Well, that was what I was going to put to you, Mr. Mandic.  You

 2    confirm, Dr. Koljevic's English was in fact absolutely excellent, wasn't

 3    it, throughout this whole period, I presume; right?

 4       A.   Yes.  Dr. Biljana Plavsic and Dr. Karadzic also could speak

 5    English.  But I believe Dr. Koljevic's doctoral thesis was concerned with

 6    Shakespeare and he got his Ph.D. in London.

 7       Q.   In a nutshell, in a ranking, Dr. Koljevic's English was absolutely

 8    excellent, Dr. Karadzic's English was at all relevant times very good; Dr.

 9    Plavsic's English was not as good as that; is that a fair summary?

10       A.   Right.

11       Q.   And during -- thank you.  And during that period --

12       A.   Precisely.  You gave a very good rating of their English.

13    Koljevic, then an empty space, Karadzic, followed by Plavsic.

14       Q.   And moving away from the English language, in a sense, during that

15    period from April through to August 1992, Mrs. Plavsic's responsibilities

16    continued to lie mainly in the area of what I'll broadly call humanitarian

17    matters, didn't they?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And throughout the whole period from the -- let's start from the

20    declaration of the Republika Srpska on the 9th of January, right through

21    all the months that I've mentioned, right through, let's say, to August

22    1992, Mr. Krajisnik was at all times very heavily engaged in his

23    responsibilities and functions as president of the Assembly, wasn't he?

24       A.   You mean the Assembly of the Serbian People or the joint Assembly

25    of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 9279

 1       Q.   Thank you for drawing that to my attention.  I did in fact mean

 2    the Assembly of the Serbian -- the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

 3    Herzegovina, and then Republika Srpska, as it became.  Thank you for that.

 4       A.   When the war began in March, April, and May 1992, all the Serbian

 5    senior staff in the administration and the government, like Mr. Krajisnik

 6    and I, consulted with each other, trying to find the best solutions as to

 7    what to do, and Mr. Karadzic was a figure apart at the time.  He was still

 8    an exclusively political personality.

 9       Q.   But to go back to Mr. Krajisnik -- well, let's take it in stages.

10    It's quite clear, isn't it, Mr. Mandic, that whatever the difficulties,

11    the Assembly of the Serb Republic, and Republika Srpska, as it came to be

12    known, continued to function and continued to meet with some considerable

13    regularity?

14       A.   Correct.  They met in different places across Republika Srpska.

15    Very rarely would two Assembly sessions be held in the same city, because

16    Bosnia and Herzegovina was divided, and every time the Assembly would meet

17    in a different place, once in Bijeljina, once in Zvornik, once in Banja

18    Luka, once in Pale, et cetera.

19       Q.   And you've mentioned, of course, or implied correctly, that there

20    was a period of overlap when Mr. Krajisnik remained the president of the

21    Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, through the early months of 1992?

22       A.   Well, I remember that when Serbian deputies walked out of the

23    Assembly, President Krajisnik chaired one or two Assembly sessions after

24    that, when a vote would be missing, just one vote, in order to pass a

25    certain proposal, I seem to remember that he was the one who voted for, to

Page 9280

 1    enable it.

 2       Q.   If we go back and then stick now with the Serb Assembly.  But did

 3    you see throughout the period from January 1992 right through the summer

 4    of 1992, through to August, did you see that a very great deal of

 5    Mr. Krajisnik's time and energies was required by the functioning of the

 6    Assembly and the meetings of the Assembly, coupled with the work to

 7    establish the organs of the new Republika Srpska?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   And he was also during that period quite considerably involved in

10    international negotiations, wasn't he?

11       A.   I don't recall him being involved in international negotiations in

12    the beginning.  I don't think so.  I believe he was rather more involved

13    in communicating with, as we called them at the time, the Muslim

14    authorities, and he had several meetings with Mr. Alija Izetbegovic,

15    especially as concerned Sarajevo and the events in the beginning of the

16    war around Sarajevo.  I believe it was Dr. Plavsic who communicated more

17    with the international community, the Presidency, Dr. Nikola Koljevic and

18    Dr. Karadzic, as far as I know.

19       Q.   Yes, Mr. Mandic.  To make it clear:  There isn't a dispute over

20    the point you raised, that Mr. Krajisnik had discussions with the Muslim

21    community and met Mr. Izetbegovic.  There isn't an issue about that.  But

22    are you saying that you're not aware that in 1992, and indeed at other

23    times, Mr. Krajisnik was involved in international negotiations in a

24    number of instances in other countries?  If you don't know, Mr. Mandic,

25    that's the correct answer.

Page 9281

 1       A.   At a later stage, after the beginning of the war, I believe

 2    Mr. Krajisnik got gradually more and more involved in negotiations and

 3    more and more foreigners approached him for negotiations.  But if we are

 4    discussing the period of the beginning of the war, I believe Mr. Krajisnik

 5    was more preoccupied with the Assembly, with the new government, with the

 6    internal politics, whereas Mr. Koljevic, Ms. Plavsic, and Radovan Karadzic

 7    were in a way more concerned with and dealt with the international

 8    community.  Later on, however, the situation seemed to normalise.

 9            MR. STEWART:  My case manager was just reorganising my papers,

10    Your Honour, for me.

11       Q.   You described, when you were questioned about the ranking of some

12    of the leading politicians in the Bosnian Serb community, you talked about

13    there being a sort of a dead heat, the phrase that came across, that there

14    was a latent conflict around the position of number 2.  Dr. Karadzic

15    being, in your view, the unquestioned number.  A latent conflict between

16    Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic, on one side, and Mr. Krajisnik on the

17    other.  Now, I just want to be clear what you're saying, Mr. Mandic, and

18    put this to you:  You seem to be describing a sort of double dead heat,

19    that if, in the views that there were of the political set-up, there was a

20    sort of dead heat between Mr. Krajisnik, on the one hand, and Professor

21    Koljevic and Mrs. Plavsic, as a pair, on the other.  And then within that

22    pair, there was a sort of further dead heat between Dr. Koljevic and Mrs.

23    Plavsic.  Now is -- just first of all ask you: Is that an apt summary?

24       A.   Yes, it is.  However, the first and the second prime ministers

25    were supported by Dr. Biljana Plavsic and Mr. Nikola Koljevic, whereas

Page 9282

 1    Dr. Karadzic supported Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.

 2       Q.   Well, supported Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik primarily as his trusted

 3    president of the Assembly, presumably.

 4       A.   Indeed.  I believe he trusted him more than anyone else because he

 5    was, in political terms, a person that showed most maturity, whereas the

 6    other ones were rather vain and wanted to be shown as very important,

 7    sitting next to Mr. Karadzic, simply because they came out of what was

 8    earlier a joint Presidency.

 9       Q.   And you described -- you talked about the different kinds of power

10    that Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik had, and I don't want to just go over

11    your evidence time and time again.  But specifically in relation to

12    Mr. Krajisnik, and this was at page 78 of the transcript of Tuesday,

13    Tuesday, the 23rd of November, you said:  "Mr. Krajisnik was the president

14    and chairman of the Assembly" - obviously right - "and had deputies and

15    presidents of the municipalities under him."  So that's what I meant when

16    I said "the influence on people."

17            Now, when you talked about Mr. Krajisnik having deputies and

18    presidents of the municipalities under him, you mean that, do you, simply

19    because a number of the presidents of municipalities were themselves also

20    deputies?

21       A.   Yes.  However, other presidents of the municipalities who were not

22    members of the parliament placed most trust in Mr. Krajisnik when it came

23    to the parliament issues.

24       Q.   Well, when you say -- all right.  Let's deal with them, then.

25    First of all, how many, if you can say, how many presidents of

Page 9283

 1    municipalities -- at the end of March 1992, how many presidents of

 2    municipalities do you say were also deputies in the Serb Assembly?

 3       A.   There were many of them, but I can't give you the exact figure.

 4    In many cases, people wore two hats, had both functions at the same time,

 5    but how many of them there were, I can't tell you.

 6       Q.   I'm going to press you, then, for a rough idea.  You said you

 7    can't give it exactly, Mr. Mandic, and I'm not going to challenge that.

 8    But you've raised the point here.  Can you give Their Honours a rough

 9    idea?  Well, first of all, how many deputies were there all together?

10       A.   There were 83 of them, I believe.

11       Q.   And roughly how many of those do you say were presidents of

12    municipalities?

13       A.   Since Republika Srpska was divided at the time, not only into

14    municipalities but into autonomous districts, a great many deputies headed

15    these regional structures.  More than half of the deputies also discharged

16    certain important positions in their respective municipalities:  President

17    of the municipality, president of the regional government, and suchlike.

18            MR. STEWART:  Would Your Honour give me one moment, please.

19                          [Defence counsel confer]

20            MR. STEWART:

21       Q.   Mr. Mandic, I'm going to try to speed this up.  I'm going to

22    read -- I'll read about eight or ten names, and I'll read them reasonably,

23    not so quickly that I hope everybody can't hear them, but I'm not pausing

24    to ask you questions about each one.  I'm going to read off the ten names

25    and then I'm simply going to ask you whether, broadly speaking, you're

Page 9284

 1    familiar with those names, not necessarily every single one, but you see

 2    what I'm getting at.  And the ten names are, and you'll have to forgive my

 3    pronunciation, which may offend you, but:  Predrag Radic, Zlatko Jokovic,

 4    Milorad Vujovic -- just let me finish.  Just let me go through eight or

 5    ten and then give us the picture, Mr. Mandic.  Gojko Klickovic, Radomir

 6    Pasic, Rajko Novakovic, Gojko Klickovic, Radomir Pasic, Rajko Novakovic,

 7    Ljubisav Simic, Djordje Ristanic, Dusko Kornjaca, Sveto Kovacevic.

 8            Then as it happens.  Do you broadly speaking know those names? Not

 9    every one, but they're pretty familiar to you overall, are they?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And can you say what links them?

12       A.   They were presidents of municipalities, Predrag Radic was in Banja

13    Luka, Gojko Klickovic was in Krajina.  I don't know the name of the place.

14    Dusko Kornjaca was in -- I can't remember now.  Somewhere in Eastern

15    Bosnia.

16       Q.   Cajnice?

17       A.   Yes, Cajnice.  Novakovic was, I believe, in Bijeljina.

18       Q.   Mr. Mandic, it's neither a trick nor a quiz show.  You're right;

19    they are -- they are, all of them, people who were presidents of

20    municipalities in 1992, and you're absolutely correct, Mr. Predrag Radic

21    is Banja Luka.  They are, so everybody knows, they are the ten off-- the

22    first ten in the alphabetical list of municipalities which feature in the

23    indictment in this case.

24            But, Mr. Mandic, the point is this:  I've got a list, which is no

25    secret and we can offer this at any convenient point, 37 municipalities

Page 9285

 1    that are specifically featured in the indictment in this case, the

 2    presidents of those municipalities and two are identified as deputies.

 3    One is the president of the municipality of Kotor Varos, Mr. Nedeljko

 4    Djekanovic.  Did you know him in 1992?

 5       A.   I don't remember him.

 6       Q.   Do you know the name?

 7       A.   The family name sounds familiar, but I don't remember the man.

 8    Djekanovic.  I do find the name familiar, yes.

 9       Q.   And the other one is from Sanski Most, also Nedeljko, as it

10    happens, Rasula.  Is that somebody that you knew in 1992?

11       A.   Yes.  It seems to me that he was later to become a minister in one

12    of the governments.

13       Q.   So what we've got there is 37 of the - sorry - 35 of the 37

14    municipalities we're talking about where the presidents were not deputies

15    and two where they were.  Now, I appreciate, Mr. Mandic, your answer a few

16    minutes ago extended slightly beyond simply presidents, and I'm not out to

17    trick you or be unfair about that.  But, first of all, does that pattern

18    as far as presidents of municipalities are concerned, this is 37 of the

19    municipalities, but does that now tie in, with the best of your

20    recollection, that in fact it was only a very tiny number of presidents of

21    municipalities who were also deputies?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And then I think you were suggesting that beyond presidents of

24    municipalities, that there were a number of other people who held other

25    positions in municipalities who were also deputies; correct?

Page 9286

 1       A.   Yes, it is.

 2       Q.   And -- but just moving for the moment, then, to the presidents of

 3    municipalities who were not deputies, which it's pretty clear was

 4    overwhelmingly most of them:  You say, do you, that Mr. Krajisnik had

 5    influence over those people?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   As a group or because he particularly knew specific individuals

 8    within that category?

 9       A.   I think that Mr. Krajisnik wielded great authority and political

10    power among the Serbian people in the earlier Joint Assembly and that

11    those people who later became presidents of municipalities came to consult

12    with Mr. Krajisnik as far as the parliamentary branch of municipal

13    government was concerned.

14       Q.   First of all, Mr. Mandic, can we be very clear:  Do you know that?

15    Do you know that presidents of municipalities who were not also deputies

16    went to consult or did consult Mr. Krajisnik?

17       A.   Yes, I do.

18       Q.   And what is the basis or source of your own personal knowledge of

19    that?

20       A.   I used to see them at Mr. Krajisnik's in the course of 1992.  I

21    even knew some of them personally.

22       Q.   You presumably didn't know very many of them personally.

23       A.   Almost none of them, actually, personally.

24       Q.   You weren't at any of these, if they were meetings, between the

25    presidents of municipalities and Mr. Krajisnik, were you?

Page 9287

 1       A.   No, I wasn't at any of the meetings.  But I had personal knowledge

 2    that some presidents of municipalities came to consult with him.  I

 3    believe it was mostly those from Sarajevo and the area there that went to

 4    see Mr. Krajisnik because it wasn't a great deal for them to come to Pale.

 5       Q.   But you don't know yourself the content of their discussions?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   What about going back to those presidents of municipalities who

 8    were deputies, and those deputies who were just deputies?  Do you say that

 9    Mr. Krajisnik had influence over them beyond what would simply be expected

10    from a respected and, by all accounts, energetic and efficient president

11    of the Assembly?

12       A.   I've said this a moment ago, and I will repeat it now:  In this

13    brief period of time, Mr. Krajisnik grew up to be a man who was held in

14    highest esteem and who held most authority in the eyes of the people. Even

15    from the perspective of the deputies, he was an excellent chairman of

16    these sessions, and people would come to him, approach him to consult him,

17    and I believe that he continued discharging his duties equally well

18    afterwards.

19       Q.   He was an excellent chairman, was he, in the -- well, the

20    qualities of an excellent chairman, I suggest to you, he was an excellent

21    chairman in the sense that he was efficient, businesslike, fair, and

22    approached matters with an equable temperament?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And in his public appearances, and there were appearances on

25    television, weren't there?  That's correct?

Page 9288

 1       A.   That's correct.  All of us, myself included, expressed our

 2    positions in an emotional way when it came to these inter-ethnic problems.

 3    As for Mr. Krajisnik, he approached the topic in a quite different manner,

 4    with equanimity that he presented a position and his views when it came to

 5    the Serbian side, and the other sides that came to be at war together.

 6       Q.   In fact, his public pronouncements were conspicuously free of

 7    aggressive language, weren't they?

 8       A.   Correct.

 9       Q.   You gave some evidence about Mr. Karadzic's and Mr. Krajisnik's -

10    they were bracketed together in a lot of the questioning - you gave some

11    evidence about their ability, and of course we're specifically very

12    interested in Mr. Krajisnik in this trial, their ability to influence or

13    control entry into government posts.  You remember talking about that in

14    your evidence and in your earlier interviews with the OTP, do you --

15    sorry, with the Prosecution.  I beg your pardon.

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   You yourself were not a party to any significant discussions about

18    government appointments at ministerial level, were you, leaving your own

19    position aside?

20       A.   No, I wasn't, since I wasn't a member of the party, I didn't have

21    access to these meetings.  It was the political leadership, or rather, the

22    top of the Serbian Democratic Party that decided on these matters and held

23    consultations.

24       Q.   And there were, so far as you could see, is this right,

25    Mr. Mandic, there were, as there often are in politics, there were

Page 9289

 1    informal meetings, informal group discussions of those in leadership

 2    positions to discuss prospective appointments?

 3       A.   That's right.

 4       Q.   In the case of the newly formed Serb Republic, and Republika

 5    Srpska, as it came to be known, it's right, isn't it, that a considerable

 6    number, a very high proportion of the government jobs were filled by

 7    people who had been engaged in broadly similar activities within the

 8    Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina before the split?

 9       A.   Yes.  This was especially true of the first government, because

10    all the ministers except for Mr. Nikolic were of Serb ethnicity, including

11    deputy ministers who used to form part of the joint government, were

12    transferred into the government of the Serbian Republic of

13    Bosnia-Herzegovina and assigned different functions there.

14       Q.   So the first government, then, by the first government, you would

15    carry that right through under Mr. Djeric, would you, right through to

16    when he resigned and Mr. Lukic took over?

17       A.   Right.

18       Q.   So it follows, then, that, so far as those posts were concerned,

19    where people broadly carried on with similar functions to the ones they'd

20    had under the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that there wasn't a

21    great deal to argue about, there wasn't a great deal to debate, as far as

22    appointments were concerned?

23       A.   This was the Council of Ministers that we mentioned a moment ago.

24    All the people who were in the Council of Ministers came from the joint

25    government, and it was from the ranks of those staff that the first

Page 9290

 1    government was formed, Mr. Djeric's.  Two members became members of the

 2    Presidency, president of the Assembly became the president of the Assembly

 3    of the Serbian People, and Mr. Djeric was a minister in the joint

 4    government of Jure Pelivan's.

 5       Q.   And you said in your evidence, and this was at page 79 of the

 6    transcript on Tuesday, the 23rd of November, you said that if there was --

 7    if there had been a divergence of views between Dr. Karadzic and

 8    Mr. Krajisnik, then usually it would be Mr. Karadzic's person who would be

 9    elected.  And you said that was rare.  Having identified it as rare, could

10    you -- are you able now -- it's years later, but are you able to recall an

11    example of a particular candidate or prospective government member over

12    whom Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik disagreed?

13       A.   To be on the safe side, let's take my case, for instance.  I was

14    supposed to be the head of the police, as the most senior police officer

15    from the joint MUP.  And at Mr. Karadzic's insistence, Mico Stanisic was

16    appointed to that post, contrary to what Mr. Krajisnik had wanted.  This

17    is an example that I can take to be on the safe side.

18            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, that would be -- it's almost a quarter

19    to.  If that were convenient to Your Honours, that would be a suitable

20    point.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  If it is a convenient moment to you, Mr. Stewart,

22    we'll have a break.  We'll have a break until 10 minutes past 4.00.

23                          --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

24                          --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Mandic into

Page 9291

 1    the courtroom.  Meanwhile, I take the time.  I asked myself why the laptop

 2    was not yet on Mr. Krajisnik's desk, where I signed already a few weeks

 3    ago.  I do understand that the laptop is there, that it's just a matter of

 4    a signature for the agreement.

 5            MR. STEWART:  Well, yes.  The signature is not the hard bit,

 6    Your Honour.  The agreement has raised questions in people's minds.  We

 7    only had the agreement the last few days.  It's obviously been some time

 8    in gestation.  It's not a three-line document.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, I'll then see what happens.  But since I

10    signed a couple of weeks ago, I wondered what happened, and I do

11    understand that --

12            MR. STEWART:  Yes, well, Your Honour --

13            JUDGE ORIE:  -- everyone's full attention at this moment.

14            MR. STEWART:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  That first of all the laptop is there and that the

16    agreement has everyone's full attention.

17            MR. STEWART:  Yes, it would to some extent, Your Honour, the

18    problem has perhaps been that over the last few days it hasn't had

19    everyone's full attention.  But we'll speed it along as soon as we can,

20    Your Honour.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then let's now concentrate again on the

22    continuation of the cross-examination of Mr. Mandic.

23            Mr. Mandic, I apologise for being involved in another matter when

24    you entered the courtroom.  Mr. Stewart will now resume his

25    cross-examination.

Page 9292

 1            MR. STEWART:

 2       Q.   Mr. Mandic, you -- my microphone.  Mr. Mandic, you were played a

 3    transcript of a telephone conversation between yourself and Mr. Lugonja.

 4    That is at page 80 of Thursday's transcript and page 8680 of the

 5    continuous transcript.

 6       A.   Petar Lugonja.

 7       Q.   And you were asked about Mr. Prstojevic.  In the conversation,

 8    this is at page 81 of that transcript, Mr. Lugonja said, after the first

 9    fairly robust sentence, he said:  "Tomo is pulling to his side because

10    he's from the police.  I believe that he's -- that he's mainly right."

11    Then there's Prstojevic, the president of the party and of the Crisis

12    Staff, and there's Kezunovic, the prime minister, you know, and you

13    acknowledged yes.  And then Mr. Lugonja said to me it seems this Kezunovic

14    guy is right most of the time.

15            Now, it looks, Mr. Mandic, and say whether this is right, that

16    Mr. Lugonja is explaining to you who Mr. Prstojevic is and who Mr.

17    Kezunovic is.  So it certainly looks as if you don't yourself at this

18    point when you're talking to Mr. Lugonja have any personal knowledge of

19    the positions and personalities and issues that are occurring there in

20    Ilidza; is that right?

21       A.   Right.

22       Q.   Yes.  He's really having to explain to you from scratch who the

23    people are, what they're up to, what the issue is; right?

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, I'm trying to find on the Thursday

25    transcript, but --

Page 9293

 1            MR. STEWART:  Sorry.  Did I say Thursday, Your Honour?  My

 2    apologies if I -- I've done it again, I think, Your Honour.  I've taken

 3    the wrong day of the week.  Tuesday, the 23rd was what I -- I did say

 4    Thursday, and I didn't give the date.  That's entirely my fault,

 5    Your Honour.  It's Tuesday, the 23rd.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7            MR. STEWART:  The continuous transcript reference was probably

 8    correct.

 9            MR. TIEGER:  Actually, you were given an erroneous starting point

10    for the first page of that sequential transcript.  It's not 8600, it's

11    8544.  The other pages are accurate.

12            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, we had a system.  The system broke

13    down, I think.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  If you don't explain it, we'll not understand.  It's

15    better.  Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

16            MR. STEWART:  The system was brilliant.  The number was the wrong

17    thing.  Yes.  I apologise for the wrong date.  Tuesday, the 23rd of

18    November.

19       Q.   Sorry, Mr. Mandic.  The date issue.  But so he was -- he was

20    explaining from scratch to you.  The -- and then when he said, and I don't

21    know -- Mr. Mandic, if at some point you need to be refreshed by having

22    this in front of you; in fact, that might be a good idea.  It's Exhibit

23    P413, so the witness, obviously, will need the B/C/S version.  I'll try to

24    find it as best I can for you, Mr. Mandic.  There's a passage that begins,

25    and it's at page 82 of the transcript, 6626.  Mr. Lugonja says:  "Well,

Page 9294

 1    it's impossible fucking hell Koljevic came last night.  They closed

 2    themselves in there and won't let anyone in.  A meeting, pal.  What

 3    fucking kind of behaviour is that?  That's just a bunch of fucking

 4    crooks."

 5            Do you see that passage, Mr. Mandic?

 6       A.   I do.

 7       Q.   Mr. Lugonja makes it fairly easy to find, doesn't he.  And then

 8    you say, Mr. Mandic:  "Well, yeah.  They're running to the boss.  All

 9    right.  I'll talk to Koljevic and up there to Karadzic."

10            When you say "Well, yeah.  They're running to the boss," who are

11    you talking about there?

12       A.   Dr. Karadzic.

13       Q.   And did you understand, when Mr. Lugonja was saying:  "They closed

14    themselves in there and won't let anyone in," who it was who had closed

15    themselves in?

16       A.   I think he said it was Kezunovic, Tomo Kovac, and this Prstojevic

17    person.  It was the Crisis Staff, the leadership of the municipality of

18    Ilidza at the time.

19       Q.   So was it that Mr. Koljevic had been shut out?  Is that what you

20    understood?  Or that he'd come along in response to a complaint about them

21    closing themselves?  Or don't you know?

22       A.   It appears to me that they locked themselves in with Koljevic and

23    didn't allow Petar Lugonja to attend that meeting.  I was not let in on

24    those events and the staffing, the appointments, but I had known Petar

25    Lugonja for many years, and he was trying to tell me about some problems

Page 9295

 1    in Ilidza, and he was trying to get me, as deputy minister of MUP, or

 2    minister of justice, to get some people around Karadzic to listen to

 3    reason and to help solve these problems at Ilidza.

 4            It was rather a private line of communication then, unofficial

 5    line, because Pero and I had been friends for ten years before the war.

 6       Q.   Was it -- was this an issue that you were -- he was a friend of

 7    yours, but was it one that you were rather reluctant to get drawn into?

 8       A.   Before the war, he was part of the inner circle of the leadership

 9    of the Serbian Democratic Party and the structures of power in Ilidza, and

10    he didn't exactly find his place in the struggle for power that ensued

11    after the war, and he was trying to present his view of the government in

12    Ilidza through me, as his friend, while Prstojevic and his entourage were

13    standing in his way.

14       Q.   Yes, Mr. Mandic.  Apologies for interrupting.  Ms. Cmeric suggests

15    that the -- you -- in the end you received the question in the wrong form.

16    It was your reluctance that I was asking about.  I think you may have got

17    it as Mr. Lugonja's reluctance, so I'll repeat it.  Was this an issue that

18    you, Mr. Mandic, were rather reluctant to get drawn into?

19       A.   Well, I didn't have any official power to resolve this conflict in

20    Ilidza, but I was trying to use my authority to help Petar Lugonja to get

21    to the people at the top and tell them what the real situation was, like

22    at Ilidza, because Kezunovic and to some extent Tomo Kovac were preventing

23    him from doing that.  And after that, I heard an intercept of a

24    conversation between me and Tomo Kovac, which seems to be a continuation

25    of this conversation.

Page 9296

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you were rather reluctant to

 2    get drawn into.  Now you're explaining what happened.  But the question

 3    was whether you were reluctant.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

 6            MR. STEWART:

 7       Q.   What's the answer, please, Mr. Mandic?  Well, you said "right,"

 8    but I didn't know whether you were acknowledging the question or giving

 9    the answer.  So can we be clear:  Were you reluctant to be drawn into this

10    particular issue?

11       A.   I was.  I was reluctant.

12       Q.   Did you, in fact, take up the issue with either or both of

13    Mr. Koljevic and Dr. Karadzic?

14       A.   I don't remember.

15       Q.   And so he having asked to have that problem resolved, if you don't

16    remember -- you're not aware of Mr. Lugonja having had any direct contact

17    himself over this issue with either Mr. Koljevic or Dr. Karadzic, are you?

18       A.   I don't think he actually managed to reach these two men, and very

19    soon after this conversation he left Ilidza for Belgrade.

20       Q.   So it's at least quite possible that nobody took up this issue at

21    all with Mr. Koljevic or Dr. Karadzic?

22       A.   I don't know.

23       Q.   If you don't know, then would you agree that it's possible?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   You -- Mr. Prstojevic was a deputy in the Assembly.  I don't think

Page 9297

 1    there's an issue about that.  You were asked whether he had a relationship

 2    with Mr. Krajisnik, was he close to Mr. Krajisnik.  And then you said:  "I

 3    think --"

 4            MR. STEWART:  Excuse me one moment, Your Honour.

 5       Q.   I'm going to retract something I just put to you, Mr. Prstojevic

 6    [sic], because you were asked -- this is at --

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Where Mr. Stewart said Mr. Prstojevic, he meant

 8    Mr. Mandic.

 9            MR. STEWART:  I meant Mr. Mandic, of course I did.  Thank you very

10    much.

11       Q.   Mr. Mandic, you were asked, and this was at page 84 of the

12    transcript, so that's 8628:  "Was Mr. Prstojevic a deputy in the

13    Assembly?"  And you said yes.  In fact, I put it to you that he was not a

14    deputy in the Assembly.  So thinking about it now, I suppose question

15    number one is:  Do you accept you could have been wrong in asserting that

16    he was a deputy?

17       A.   I do, but I still saw him at Assembly sessions.

18       Q.   And when you were asked:  "Did he --" on that same page:  "Did he,

19    Mr. Prstojevic, have a relationship with Mr. Krajisnik?  Was he close to

20    Mr. Krajisnik?"  Your answer was:  "I think that Mr. Krajisnik had major

21    influence over Mr. Prstojevic as a deputy in the Assembly.  Well, on the

22    footing, and it's a checkable fact, Mr. Mandic, so let's proceed on the

23    footing that Mr. Prstojevic was not a deputy in the Assembly, would you

24    accept, then, that Mr. Krajisnik did not have major influence over

25    Mr. Prstojevic?

Page 9298

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   So where did Mr. Krajisnik's major influence over Mr. Prstojevic

 3    come from?

 4       A.   Very often, Mr. Prstojevic would come to see the president of the

 5    Assembly for consultations, and it seems to me also that they knew each

 6    other and met frequently within the party, at party meetings.

 7    Mr. Krajisnik is from Rajlovac and Mr. Prstojevic is from Ilidza.  I'm

 8    certain that Mr. Prstojevic respected Mr. Krajisnik, both as speaker of

 9    the Assembly and as one of the leaders and influential politicians within

10    the Serbian People.

11       Q.   Mr. Mandic, let's be clear about different things.  I don't need

12    or wish to challenge your assertion that Mr. Prstojevic respected

13    Mr. Krajisnik.  I don't have an issue about that.  But I'm asking you

14    about the source of what you -- or basis of what you describe as "major

15    influence."

16            Now, what are you able to tell the Trial Chamber from your own

17    knowledge about the degree of influence that Mr. Krajisnik had over

18    Mr. Prstojevic?

19       A.   Since I really thought that he was a deputy in the Assembly, a

20    president of a municipality, a man from Sarajevo who frequently went to

21    Pale for consultations, I believed, in view of his frequent conversations

22    with Mr. Krajisnik, that he bowed to his advice.  That's what I meant.

23       Q.   Mr. Mandic, would you agree:  It seems to follow from the fact

24    that you didn't even know that Mr. Prstojevic was not a deputy, that you

25    can't have been that familiar with Mr. Prstojevic and his political

Page 9299

 1    connections?  Do you agree?

 2       A.   Correct.  It was an inference I made from my personal

 3    observations.

 4       Q.   You referred -- this is at page 88 of the transcript.  Same day.

 5    We haven't left that day.  You referred to great animosity on the part of

 6    Mr. Djeric vis-a-vis Mr. Krajisnik, and that he thought - and "he" is

 7    obviously Mr. Djeric - he thought that, as prime minister, he should

 8    exercise a great deal more of power and that he should then act in

 9    accordance with government decisions.

10            Now, Mr. Mandic, did you actually witness yourself in some way

11    great animosity on the part of Mr. Djeric towards Mr. Krajisnik?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And when do you say that started?

14       A.   It seems to me it started immediately.  When I say "immediately,"

15    I mean as soon as the war began, and when the first government and the

16    first Serbian Assembly were established.

17       Q.   And how did it -- how did it manifest itself that you witnessed?

18       A.   Well, I, as member of the cabinet, attended many cabinet sessions

19    and I communicated with the prime minister.  And in a way, he was very

20    derisive about certain positions held by Mr. Krajisnik and certain

21    decisions made by him.  He viewed them as insufficiently good or

22    insufficiently mature or, alternatively, as interfering with his own power

23    or work, that kind of thing.

24       Q.   Can you give a specific example of something which provoked some

25    hostility or disparagement or animosity towards Mr. Krajisnik?

Page 9300

 1       A.   I can't recall a specific example, but I think at the very outset,

 2    Mr. Djeric sided with Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic in their condemnation

 3    of and resistance towards Mr. Krajisnik, which was later felt through the

 4    institution of the government and the ministries.

 5       Q.   Was it personal or political, if you -- do you accept and

 6    understand the distinction that I'm putting?  Apparently you do.  So was

 7    it personal or political?

 8       A.   It seems to me it was of a personal nature.

 9       Q.   Did you ever notice any corresponding hostility by Mr. Krajisnik

10    toward Mr. Djeric?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   There was conflict, wasn't there, between Mr. Djeric, on the one

13    hand, and you and Mr. Stanisic, on the other?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   What was the -- well, I suppose I'd better start in this way.  Was

16    the -- I had said there was conflict between Mr. Djeric be, on the one

17    hand, and you and Mr. Stanisic, on the other.  You please tell the Trial

18    Chamber, Mr. Mandic, is it necessary to draw a distinction between you and

19    Mr. Stanisic for these purposes, or can we proceed on the basis that in

20    this area of conflict with Mr. Djeric, you and Mr. Stanisic basically

21    stood as one?

22       A.   I can say in my own name that I thought those professional

23    professors to be irresponsible, I mean Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic, and

24    to some extent Mr. Djeric, who was a real professor, an academic person,

25    and I expressed that at meetings, during my contacts with them, and my

Page 9301

 1    personal relations with them, which disrupted our relations.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mandic, may I again ask you to listen carefully

 3    to the question.  The question was whether you and Mr. Stanisic basically

 4    stood as one.  And I didn't hear any answer to that question specifically.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  We were not -- we did not stand

 6    as one.

 7            MR. STEWART:

 8       Q.   Yes.  I should make it clear, Mr. Mandic, and with respect,

 9    Your Honour, that I qualified it with "for these purposes."  I wasn't

10    intending or attempting to elicit from you some general statement that you

11    and Mr. Stanisic were always the same on every issue.  In relation to

12    conflict between Mr. Djeric, on the one hand, and you and Mr. Stanisic, I

13    was just wishing to start by knowing whether we should draw a distinction

14    between his conflict with you and his conflict with Mr. Stanisic, or

15    whether, for the purposes of this particular issue, we can treat you and

16    Mr. Stanisic as one.

17       A.   Mr. Stanisic, as minister of the interior of the MUP, was more

18    accountable to the head of state and the command of the army, whereas I

19    was reporting exclusively to the government, that is, Mr. Djeric.  So our

20    conflicts were not identical.  We did not have these conflicts on

21    identical grounds.

22       Q.   So the conflict between Mr. Djeric and Mr. Stanisic, what was the

23    source or basis of that?

24       A.   Well, the basis of that conflict was that Mr. Stanisic, as

25    minister of the MUP, was answerable mostly to the head of state and the

Page 9302

 1    commander of the army, that is, the chief of General Staff, and to a much

 2    lesser extent to the prime minister.  For instance, Mr. Djeric did not

 3    agree that without his consent, the police should be able to mount an

 4    action or take any step, whereas Mr. Stanisic thought such consent

 5    unnecessary, and he only sought the agreement of the president of the

 6    Republic or the chief of the General Staff.  I believe that is the essence

 7    of the conflict.  It was basically a conflict between civilian authorities

 8    and military authorities.

 9       Q.   On his side, did you see whether Mr. Krajisnik supported or

10    opposed Mr. Djeric in his position as prime minister?

11       A.   I didn't really notice that Mr. Krajisnik took any specific

12    position.  I don't think he was involved, or he didn't want to be drawn in

13    to that conflict.  If you mean the relationship between Stanisic and

14    Djeric.

15       Q.   You said, and this is at the top of page 89 on the 23rd of

16    November, which is 8643, you said that:  "For a while, he" - that's

17    Mr. Djeric - "didn't even want to communicate with Mr. Krajisnik."

18            Was that expressed to you by Mr. Djeric?

19       A.   No.  He didn't say that in so many words, but I could notice that

20    he avoided speaking to or meeting with Mr. Krajisnik.

21       Q.   You don't know, do you, Mr. Mandic, from your own personal

22    knowledge, whether in fact Mr. Djeric achieved a practice of

23    non-communication with Mr. Krajisnik for any period?

24       A.   No, I don't.

25       Q.   And you were asked, on the same page, about the reasons why

Page 9303

 1    Mr. Djeric left his position as prime minister.  The -- now, first of all,

 2    this is correct, isn't it, that there were 20 signatories produced, or 20

 3    signatures produced within the Assembly to get rid of Mr. Djeric?  Do you

 4    remember that?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Was there -- do you remember:  Was there a particular, specific

 7    issue, or was that a reflection of some fairly general dissatisfaction

 8    with Mr. Djeric?

 9       A.   I think there was a misunderstanding and differences on both

10    sides, from the deputies, on the one hand, and Mr. Djeric, on the other. I

11    think it was at the Zvornik Assembly session, held on the 16th of

12    November, when Prime Minister Djeric, after several hours of discussion,

13    submitted his resignation.

14            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters' addition.  Witness said

15    irrevocable resignation.

16            MR. STEWART:

17       Q.   Yes.  In your last answer, Mr. Mandic, did you include a reference

18    to a dissatisfaction?

19       A.   Who do you have in mind, Mr. Stewart?  You mean in reference to

20    the deputies or to Mr. Djeric?

21       Q.   Well, I'll explain.  What's happened is that the answer which I'm

22    reading from the English transcript as from line 9:  "I think there was a

23    misunderstanding and differences on both sides."  It's suggested to me

24    that your answer was:  "I think there was dissatisfaction and differences

25    on both sides."

Page 9304

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And, well, in fact the 20 -- it was a petition of sorts and the 20

 3    signatories who wished to get rid of Mr. Djeric, say -- they were, as you

 4    have already indicated to the Trial Chamber, they were successful, weren't

 5    they?

 6       A.   I think it was Mr. Djeric who submitted his resignation, rather

 7    than having been removed.

 8       Q.   Well, he jumped, because he was about to be pushed, didn't he?

 9       A.   I don't remember.

10       Q.   You gave some evidence at page 92, 8636, you gave some evidence

11    about Mr. Krajisnik and particular people who enjoyed his confidence, and

12    you identified some of them.  And what you said there was:  "Well" -- you

13    were asked to identify them, and you said:  "Well, for the most part, they

14    were deputies from the pre-war Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

15    presidents of municipalities who were appointed to those positions at the

16    beginning of the war."

17            And then the particular names you gave were Professor Vojislav

18    Maksimovic, Petar Cancar, and Velibor Ostojic.  And you continued:  "And

19    these people who were involved in parliamentary work before the war and at

20    the beginning of the war, inter alia."

21            Professor Maksimovic, what do you say from your observation, your

22    knowledge, what was the basis of a particular relationship of confidence

23    between Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Maksimovic?

24       A.   Professor Maksimovic was head of the club of deputies of the SDS

25    and was a deputy of the pre-war parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 9305

 1       Q.   So Mr. Krajisnik, of course, being the president of the pre-war

 2    Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, obviously knew Professor Maksimovic

 3    from that time?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   What about Mr. Cancar, Petar Cancar?

 6       A.   I believe that Mr. Cancar was also a deputy in the pre-war

 7    Assembly and chairman of one of the councils of the pre-war Assembly.

 8    Later on, he became one of the key people in the parliament of the Serbian

 9    people, and for a while he was also a minister of justice, I believe.

10       Q.   Much later on, presumably, minister of justice.

11       A.   Yes.  I believe it was much later.

12       Q.   And his key position in the Assembly, do you mean any sort of

13    formal position or just that he was an active, respected member?

14       A.   I think that Petar Cancar was chairman of one of the councils in

15    the pre-war Assembly.  It was -- or rather, the chamber.  It was the

16    chamber of the peoples.  I don't know which of the two parliament

17    chambers, but he must have been there for the speaker of one of the

18    chambers of the pre-war Assembly.

19       Q.   And Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Velibor Ostojic, the basis of -- of his

20    relationship of confidence, as you suggested, with Mr. Krajisnik?

21       A.   I recalled Mr. Ostojic at that moment because he was the -- one of

22    those three people from Foca who was the minister of information in the

23    pre-war government and he was minister of information later on as well.  I

24    believe it was in the first government.  He was later on to become a

25    deputy prime minister.

Page 9306

 1       Q.   Mr. Mandic, perhaps you could tell the Trial Chamber this.  Well,

 2    let me first put this to you:  Mr. Krajisnik you have described as being a

 3    respected, efficient, fair president of the Assembly, and he had been the

 4    same, had he, in terms of efficiency, energy, fairness, equable

 5    temperament, he'd been the same, had he, in his position as the president

 6    of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly; is that right?  He'd shown the

 7    same qualities, had he, and the same abilities?

 8       A.   That's right.

 9       Q.   So do you agree:  It would have been astounding if, over a period,

10    he hadn't developed relationships of confidence with at least a

11    significant number of members of the Assembly over which he presided?  Do

12    you agree?  He'd be a hopeless president, wouldn't he, if he didn't manage

13    to achieve at least that much?

14       A.   I was talking at the time about three persons in whom

15    Mr. Krajisnik in the beginning of the war placed most trust, who were

16    closest to him in terms of politics, and he went along well with them.

17    They were people of Mr. Krajisnik's confidence.

18       Q.   Well, let's -- perhaps we can clear something up here, then.  So

19    when you were asked to identify people who enjoyed Mr. Krajisnik's

20    confidence, those three gentlemen - Mr. Maksimovic, Mr. Cancar, and

21    Mr. Ostojic - you put those as three gentlemen who enjoyed particular

22    clear and strong confidence of Mr. Krajisnik?

23       A.   Among others, yes.  In that particular moment, I thought of those

24    three people.  I could have mentioned some others too.  I mentioned them

25    because Cancar and Mr. Maksimovic were deputies, whereas Mr. Ostojic was a

Page 9307

 1    member of the pre-war government.  And that's why I thought of them when

 2    Mr. Prosecutor asked of me to mention some names.  That's when I recalled

 3    these three men, who were certainly very close associates of

 4    Mr. Krajisnik's.

 5       Q.   In that case, Mr. Mandic, would you be able -- then you said you

 6    could mention other names.  Would you be able to give names of other

 7    people who enjoyed Mr. Krajisnik's special confidence, rather than -- if

 8    you see the distinction I'm suggesting, as opposed to members of the

 9    Assembly with whom it was natural that a president might establish a

10    decent working relationship, so people with whom he enjoyed some clear,

11    special degree of confidence?

12       A.   I think he had very special relations with members of his cabinet,

13    with myself, for instance, he had very good relations on a very fair

14    footing, and he placed a lot of confidence in them.

15       Q.   Yes.

16            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, we suggest that what came across in the

17    English interpretation as "cabinet" would be better translated as

18    "office."

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. -- Yes.  Mr. Krajisnik -- Mr. Stewart,

20    well, you made a mistake.  I do the same.  I apologise.  I'd rather not

21    have a new translation put in place for what you considered a wrong one,

22    but verify with the witness, say:  When you said that he had a special

23    relation with members of, what did you say.  Then the interpreters will

24    have an opportunity.  Otherwise it is suggested to the witness what you at

25    least expect would be the proper translation, and I think we should keep

Page 9308

 1    that -- I try to draw the attention of the Defence to this before, but it

 2    might have been Ms. Loukas.  So we seek with the witness to repeat what he

 3    said, and if there then is a remaining issue, the interpreters will be

 4    aware that there might be a translation issue and we'll try to sort it out

 5    in that way preferably.

 6            MR. STEWART:  Yes.  I take the point, Your Honours, indeed.  Well,

 7    I -- it doesn't work so well in this particular case, but I apologise for

 8    that.  But I wonder, Your Honour, if therefore we might test and run

 9    through this one as best we can.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do not think that it's a very -- so specific

11    that we should repeat it, but just for the future.  Please proceed.

12            MR. STEWART:  Well, Your Honour, perhaps I might just put it,

13    because I believe in this case it is not all that contentious.

14       Q.   When you described, Mr. Mandic, Mr. Krajisnik as having very

15    special relations, you meant he had very special relations with people of

16    his parliamentary office?

17       A.   I meant the people who cooperated with him, worked with him, Milos

18    Savic, Nenad Radovic, people who were his immediate associates.  I'm

19    talking about his office, his associates who were with him since the

20    beginning of the war.

21       Q.   You described a degree of rivalry between Mr. Krajisnik and

22    Mr. Karadzic, but on that same page, page 92, you said -- you were asked:

23    "Later, after, beyond 1992, did some rivalry -- did any rivalry between

24    Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik begin to develop -- well, begin to develop

25    or appear to develop?"  And you answered:  "My personal opinion is that

Page 9309

 1    after a few years of the war, a few years into the war, there was a kind

 2    of rivalry that sprang up in terms of the exercise of power."

 3            Mr. Mandic, a few years is -- well, it's a few years.  When you

 4    say that a kind of rivalry sprang up, casting your mind back as best you

 5    can, when do you say that this rivalry first emerged, as you describe it?

 6       A.   The rivalry was, so it seems, created by the people in the

 7    government and in the president's office.  It seems to have originated

 8    from the entourage, not, having, several years into the war, but rather

 9    after a few months of the war, that is, speaking of Mr. Karadzic and

10    Mr. Krajisnik's entourage.

11       Q.   Well, Mr. Mandic, I have to ask you, therefore, why you've

12    specifically told the Trial Chamber earlier that it was after a few years

13    of the war?

14       A.   It must have been a slip of the tongue, because the war lasted

15    some three years or so.  I mostly referred to 1991 and 1992, so there must

16    have been an error.

17       Q.   Well, Mr. Mandic, I'm inviting you to think carefully, because

18    there's a double slip of the tongue because your answer was:  "My personal

19    opinion is that after a few years of the war, a few years into the war,

20    there was a kind of rivalry."  So when do you now say -- let's be as

21    specific as we can, since there's a change here - when do you now say that

22    this rivalry first began to appear?

23       A.   In my opinion, after the first year of the war.

24       Q.   And do you start the war, in your mind, when?

25       A.   In the beginning of 1992.

Page 9310

 1       Q.   So this rivalry began to emerge, did it, in -- sometime in the

 2    first half of 1993?

 3       A.   That's right.  Or in late 1992.  But somewhere around a year into

 4    the war.

 5       Q.   And you noticed this yourself, did you?

 6       A.   Not I myself, but some people observed this, and we discussed this

 7    matter quite frequently, the relationship between the president of the

 8    Assembly and the president of Republika Srpska.

 9       Q.   You were in Belgrade by that time; right?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Was some of this on the level of political gossip?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   So what in these discussions, as they clearly were, then, what --

14    was something generally identified as the root cause of this rivalry?

15       A.   It seems that the roots lay in the problems related to the

16    staffing, at all levels of government in Republika Srpska, and in the

17    relations between Republika Srpska and Serbia.

18       Q.   All right.  Let's look at each of those, then.  The problems

19    related to staffing in Republika Srpska.  So you're saying from these

20    discussions, it appeared to you that there was some pronounced difference

21    of view, was there, between Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik?

22       A.   That's right.

23       Q.   Can you summarise or encapsulate that difference of view in some

24    way?

25       A.   In my conversations with Mr. Krajisnik, I often mentioned this,

Page 9311

 1    also when talking to others, that whenever there would be some key persons

 2    appointed into the government or into public companies or other functions,

 3    Mr. Krajisnik would, under the influence of -- Mr. Krajisnik, would be

 4    dissatisfied with that appointment.  Mr. Karadzic would be backed by

 5    Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic whenever it came to the appointments into

 6    public companies, some people with qualifications, or into ministerial

 7    positions in the government.

 8       Q.   And then the other limb, the other root, if you like, relations

 9    between Republika Srpska and Serbia:  Again, can you summarise or

10    encapsulate that difference of view in some way?

11       A.   Dr. Karadzic relied far more on the policies of Mr. Milosevic,

12    whereas Mr. Krajisnik was in favour of an autonomous policy to be pursued

13    by Republika Srpska, both vis-a-vis the Federation, that is, the other

14    warring party, and in terms of its foreign policy.  I believe that the

15    differences of opinion in that area were far greater.  In my personal

16    opinion, Dr. Karadzic was greatly influenced by Mr. Milosevic, and that

17    was not the case with Mr. Krajisnik.

18       Q.   And your own -- you've described yourself as being close to

19    Mr. Krajisnik.  Now, the evidence you have given today and earlier I think

20    as well in this trial, you've told the Trial Chamber you actually didn't

21    know Mr. Krajisnik early in 1991, so that such closeness as you developed

22    was over the next year.  Did that -- well, first of all, how -- what would

23    you say was the point at which your political relationship to

24    Mr. Krajisnik was at its closest?

25       A.   I never talked of the political views, but rather about the

Page 9312

 1    relationship between the two persons.  When those critical months of the

 2    beginning of the war came, I frequently consulted with Mr. Krajisnik, who

 3    was at least to me, in my opinion, the most serious politician in Bosnia

 4    and Herzegovina at the time, unlike Mr. Nikola Koljevic and Ms. Biljana

 5    Plavsic, who, for instance, would freeze her position in the Presidency of

 6    Bosnia and Herzegovina and then go on some private errands visiting

 7    monasteries, churches, and so on.  Unlike her, Mr. Krajisnik tried to help

 8    me in any way he could in the different relations existing within the

 9    pre-war MUP and in developing the new MUP, or rather, the new justice

10    system.

11       Q.   So leaving aside any label of personal or political, but taking

12    your own description of your relations with Mr. Krajisnik, as you've just

13    given it, when do you say was the point at which your relationship to

14    Mr. Krajisnik reached its closest?

15       A.   I think this was the end of 1991, and it was also throughout the

16    war, but also in the aftermath of the war.

17       Q.   And in fact, you did develop quite a warm personal relationship

18    with Mr. Krajisnik, didn't you?

19       A.   We were not close in terms of being friends or on visiting terms.

20    It was a relationship of respect, particularly vis-a-vis Mr. Krajisnik.  I

21    knew that he was going to do anything possible, if it was within his

22    power, to solve any matters that I approached him with, and that was true

23    for any walks of life, from private matters to state matters.

24       Q.   You gave some evidence and you were asked questions -- this is on

25    Wednesday, the 24th of November.  This is at page 26, which is going to be

Page 9313

 1    8663 of the continuous transcript.  You were asked about a way in which

 2    financial support had been given in relation to Sokolac when apparently

 3    officially the funding for the police station in Sokolac had been

 4    suspended.  You recall that evidence?  I'll remind you of it if you want,

 5    Mr. Mandic.

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Yes, you remember, or --

 8       A.   If you can refresh my memory, yes, please do.

 9       Q.   Yes, I will, then.  You were --

10       A.   Yes, please remind me.

11       Q.   Yes.  I'll give you the same refresher that Mr. Tieger gave you,

12    in fact, from your interview.  You said:  "At the time I had a special

13    cash register as the head of one of the ministry departments and since

14    Zoran Cvijetic, God rest his soul, was the head of police in Sokolac, who

15    jumped before all of us and didn't exactly behave by the agreed policy.

16    He fired all employees of Muslim nationality before everybody else did,

17    and as a result, the police station in Sokolac was suspended.  Of course,

18    people had to receive their salaries, to buy fuel and everything else,

19    because they didn't have means to live and work.  In the agreement with

20    Mico Stanisic, who -- he was already Serbian minister of Serbian MUP, but

21    with the knowledge of Radovan Karadzic, I transferred the means from that

22    cash register to Sokolac.  That was to cover the salaries, the fuel, and

23    all that.  That was very risky move which I hid in the paperwork and

24    decisions, saying that some of it went to Banja Luka, some of it to

25    Medici, and that was the way we kept the station going for two months."

Page 9314

 1            And then you did in your evidence go on to say that it wasn't

 2    quite -- it wasn't exactly like that.  But, Mr. Mandic, I'm not -- at the

 3    moment, I'm not intent on exploring the differences between your interview

 4    and your evidence and getting into the details of that.  My question is a

 5    very simple one.  Mr. Krajisnik wasn't involved in any of this, was he,

 6    and didn't have any knowledge about any of this?

 7       A.   No, he didn't.

 8       Q.   You were asked a number of questions about Exhibit 420, which I

 9    wonder if you can be given.  That is a document which you do acknowledge

10    signing, don't you, Mr. Mandic?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And you said specifically, and this is at page 41, 8678, that you

13    were instructed by the newly appointed minister of the interior, Mico

14    Stanisic, to send this kind of telegram, and that's what I did."

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And you have given evidence that, as far as you were concerned,

17    this was in accordance with decisions which had already been taken on

18    behalf of the Serbian people.  But Mr. Krajisnik himself had no individual

19    part in the preparation and dissemination of this particular document, did

20    he?

21       A.   You're right.  At that moment, Mr. Krajisnik was in Lisbon,

22    together with Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and I believe Mate

23    Boban, where they signed the so-called Cutileiro Plan.  This plan verified

24    the creation of armies and police forces based on ethnicity, and

25    Mr. Stanisic informed me about this.  He said that in keeping with the

Page 9315

 1    decisions of the Assembly and the enactments stated in the dispatch, I was

 2    supposed to circulate this across the territory to all police stations and

 3    all autonomous regions.

 4       Q.   Well, I suppose my first point, Mr. Mandic, it may seem like a

 5    digression:  You'd agree that there has now come into your head very

 6    specifically a recollection that Mr. Krajisnik was involved in

 7    international negotiations and was at times abroad on those negotiations?

 8    That's clear, isn't it?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And what do you say Mr. Stanisic -- what information did

11    Mr. Stanisic give you that you needed, in other words, that you didn't

12    already have?

13       A.   Well, I knew about the decisions of the Assembly of the Serbian

14    People and I knew about the enactment of this constitution of the Serbian

15    Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well as the enactment of the law on

16    Internal Affairs, which I stated, enumerated in this dispatch.  He only

17    informed me that the Cutileiro Plan was initialled in Lisbon and that I

18    was to circulate this dispatch to all field offices in Bosnia and

19    Herzegovina, which I did.

20       Q.   And you -- this is back at page 11, which is 8648 - you referred

21    to decision of the Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina

22    with regard to the establishment of a Serbian MUP.  When do you say that

23    decision had been reached?

24       A.   The dispatch says at a session held on the 27th of March, 1992.

25       Q.   That was promulgating the constitution of the Serbian Republic.

Page 9316

 1    That's what it records.  That's what you're talking about; is that right?

 2       A.   Yes.  This session also adopted the law on Internal Affairs.

 3       Q.   And it's the law on Internal Affairs which is applicable here;

 4    that's what you're talking about, are you?

 5       A.   Yes.  It was enacted by the Assembly of the Serbian People.

 6       Q.   So at page 11, the page we just referred to, you were talking

 7    about Mr. Radovic speaking after Mr. Stanisic at the meeting held in Banja

 8    Luka on the 11th of February, and you said:  "Mr. Radovic speaking after

 9    Mr. Stanisic, discussed the decision of the Assembly of the Serbian People

10    of Bosnia-Herzegovina with regard to the establishment of a Serbian MUP."

11            You clearly couldn't have been talking about a decision of the

12    27th of March, because that hadn't arrived yet, so you were talking about

13    some other decision prior to the 11th of February, were you?

14       A.   Would you please clarify that, Mr. Stewart?

15       Q.   The passage that I cited to you a few minutes ago, where you had

16    talked about discussion of the decision of the Assembly of the Serbian

17    People of Bosnia-Herzegovina with regard to the establishment of a Serbian

18    MUP, came in a question.  The question, page 11, the reference I've

19    already given, Mr. Radovic, speaking after Mr. Stanisic, and you were

20    talking about the meeting of the 11th of February, 1992.  It was put to

21    you by Mr. Tieger:  "Mr. Radovic, speaking after Mr. Stanisic, discussed

22    the decision of the Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina

23    with regard to the establishment of a Serbian MUP?"  And you said:

24    "Correct.  Before this meeting, the Assembly of the Serb People in the

25    Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina reached a decision on the

Page 9317

 1    establishment of a Serb MUP, and I think that on that occasion, a law was

 2    passed, a law on the MUP."

 3            So your recollection was that the decision and the law on the MUP

 4    had arisen before the 11th of February.  That was your recollection,

 5    wasn't it?

 6       A.   I must have been mistaken about the dates.  I would be grateful if

 7    you could give me the transcript of the session in Banja Luka, and then

 8    maybe I would be able to explain.  Is it the case that a decision was made

 9    to do something, or the law was enacted?

10            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, I'm trying to remember exactly when we

11    have the break.  I think this is about the time when we normal --

12            JUDGE ORIE:  This is approximately the time when we usually have

13    the break.  The witness would like to have a look at the transcript.  I

14    don't know whether I --

15            MR. STEWART:  Well, that's what I had in mind, Your Honour.  It

16    seemed more convenient to have the break.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  To find that during the break, yes.

18            MR. STEWART:  Yes.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll have a break until five minutes to 6.00.

20            Yes, Mr. Tieger.

21            MR. TIEGER:  Just for the benefit of the registrar, that's Exhibit

22    415, I believe.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

24                          --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.

25                          --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

Page 9318

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  May the witness be brought into the courtroom.

 2                          [The witness entered court]

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

 4            MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5       Q.   Mr. Mandic, you asked to have an opportunity, which it's fair that

 6    you should have, to refresh your recollection in relation to the meeting

 7    held in Banja Luka on the 11th of February, 1992, and that is Exhibit 415.

 8    The very first thing that I'm going to ask you to do, Mr. Mandic, if I

 9    may, and following something His Honour Judge Orie said before the break,

10    is to invite you to read the second paragraph, which appears under the

11    heading of the name of Mr. Stanisic.  Do you see that?  Just fairly

12    shortly down the first page, there's a reference to Mr. Stanisic and then

13    there's a paragraph which starts in English:  "The Ministerial Council's

14    position ..."  And I'm going to invite you just to read the first sentence

15    of the next -- well, it's all one sentence, actually -- to read the next

16    paragraph, the one that begins:  "The MUP ..."

17       A.   The Ministry of the Interior, MUP, of the SRBH.

18       Q.   Yes.  If you could continue, please.  Sorry.  I beg your pardon,

19    Mr. Mandic.  If you'll read it out loud.  I'm so sorry.  If you could read

20    the whole of that paragraph out loud, until I invite you to stop.

21       A.  "The MUP of the SRBH is held by the Muslims rather than by the

22    Serbs, contrary to what the general public is being led to believe,

23    because the SDA has about 1.000 people in reserve forces of the police in

24    the Stari Grad police station, out of whom only 30 or so are Serbs, who

25    almost do not even have uniforms, unlike the others, who are armed with

Page 9319

 1    the most modern weapons."

 2       Q.   Yes.  You can --

 3       A.   "Work should be done --"

 4       Q.   You can stop, Mr. Mandic.  We've got past the critical point.

 5            MR. STEWART:  Excuse me one moment, Your Honour.

 6                          [Defence counsel confer]

 7            MR. STEWART:

 8       Q.   Mr. Mandic, I apologise.  I'm trying to avoid troubling you to

 9    also be a linguistic expert, though I'm sure you can be in appropriate

10    circumstances.  But the first few words which appear in the Serbian as

11    "MUP SRBIH," "dijele muslimani," perhaps you could just tell the Trial

12    Chamber what's the sense of "dijele"?

13       A.   A couple of days ago, when answering the questions of the

14    Prosecution, I said that when nationalist parties came into power, they

15    demanded that the Ministry of the Interior should have the same structure

16    as the national structure of the Bosnia-Herzegovinian.  If, for instance,

17    there was a 35 per cent Muslim population in Bosnia-Herzegovina, there

18    should be 35 per cent of Muslim staff on the police.  At that moment, most

19    of the policemen were Serbs, and the Party of Democratic Action, the SDA,

20    that is, the government, demanded that police stations be reinforced from

21    the ethnic community of Muslims, parallel with dismissing Serb policemen,

22    in order to reflect the ratio of the ethnic communities within the

23    country.  I hope I have managed to explain.

24       Q.   Yes.  Mr. Mandic.

25            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, may I ask through Your Honour:  The

Page 9320

 1    question -- what's arisen is a question as to the appropriateness of the

 2    translation that we're reading in 415, in the first line or two of that

 3    paragraph.  I'm afraid I don't know, Your Honour, whether the

 4    interpreters' booth are doing a fresh translation now or whether they're

 5    reading from that.  Because that may indicate the difficulty.  It's being

 6    suggested to me that the translation we're seeing in the document is not

 7    correct, but we're getting the same translation again.

 8            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters apology.  We did read this word

 9    out rather than interpreting it, which was a mistake, and the word is

10    actually "is being divided by the Muslims, not held by the Muslims.

11            MR. STEWART:  The apology is due from me not making it absolutely

12    clear what I was inviting the interpreters to do and the purpose of the

13    exercise.  So thank you very much, interpreters.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Could I then just ask whether the translation would

15    be that the -- I'll just try to understand it.  That the MUP of the

16    socialist Republic BiH is divided rather by the Muslims than by the Serbs.

17    Is that a correct understanding of --

18            MR. STEWART:  Being divided, I think what was suggested,

19    Your Honour.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Being divided by the Muslims rather than by the

21    Serbs.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now it's clear.

23            MR. STEWART:  Yes.  Thank you very much.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25            MR. STEWART:  Sorry.  That took a few moments.

Page 9321

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  We have spent moments less efficiently.  Please

 2    proceed.

 3            MR. STEWART:

 4       Q.   So we've got that cleared up, Mr. Mandic.  And then you were

 5    there, of course, at this meeting, and your -- well, he was your boss,

 6    wasn't he, really, Mr. Stanisic, was saying that -- the paragraph after

 7    that:  "Work should be done on the organisation of a Serbian MUP, starting

 8    with municipal and regional branches."  Now, at that point, Mr. Mandic, it

 9    sounds - say whether this is wrong - it sounds as if this is being put

10    forward by Mr. Stanisic as a proposal that there should be a separate

11    Serbian MUP.

12       A.   I think Stanisic was conveying here the position of the

13    Ministerial Council stated in the first paragraph.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

15            MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, before Mr. Stewart proceeds, a small

16    correction.  I don't think the evidence reflects that Mr. Stanisic was

17    Mr. Mandic's boss at this stage.

18            MR. STEWART:  Yes.  I beg your pardon.  I think that is right,

19    actually.  Yes.  Thank you.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21            MR. STEWART:  I jumped ahead as far as that goes.

22       Q.   The -- when we look at Mr. Radovic's remark, it's quite a short

23    intervention by Mr. Radovic below that, which you had referred to, he

24    informed those present that the Assembly of the Serbian Republic of

25    Bosnia-Herzegovina adopted a decision on the establishment of Serbian MUP

Page 9322

 1    and he presented the text and the content thereof to the attendees.

 2            We're not a hundred per cent sure about the Serbian there,

 3    Mr. Mandic, but is it your recollection that Mr. Radovic referred to such

 4    a matter or that he actually read or put before the meeting some actual

 5    text of a document?

 6       A.   I think we should first distinguish between these enactments.

 7    Nenad Radovic informed those present that the Assembly passed only a

 8    decision, not the law, on the establishment of the Serbian MUP.  So in

 9    that month, the Assembly took the decision to establish the Serbian MUP.

10    And he was informing the Serbs present about the text of that decision.

11    Not the law.  The law was passed on the 27th March 1992.  At this

12    particular moment, there was only a decision to establish the Serbian MUP.

13            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, I wonder if the witness might,

14    therefore, have -- it's a document already in evidence.  It was in

15    Mr. Treanor's exhibits.  It's P65.  It's folder 9A, tab 103.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, and the same is true, of course, for the

17    Prosecution.  If you foresee that you would need one of the many, many

18    documents of Mr. Treanor, could you perhaps give already a message to the

19    registrar so that she can start finding them in advance.

20            MR. STEWART:  Yes.  My apologies, Your Honour.  I didn't foresee

21    until about five minutes ago, but I still could have done it during those

22    five minutes.  So we'll certainly try and remember to do that,

23    Your Honour.

24       Q.   Mr. Mandic, this is Law on Internal Affairs, published in the

25    Official Gazette on the 23rd of March, 1992, and it is setting out Law on

Page 9323

 1    Internal Affairs enacted by the National Assembly, it's described as, but

 2    the Assembly of Republika Srpska, at its session of the 28th of February,

 3    1992.  Is this -- at least you have the advantage of being a lawyer,

 4    Mr. Mandic, but if you could just look at it sufficiently to confirm that

 5    that's the document that you had in mind by your reference to the Law on

 6    Internal Affairs.

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   So the -- is the explanation this:  If we're looking -- I don't

 9    know whether we are literally looking, but if we're considering the

10    document which you sent out, dated the 31st of March, 1992, the 420 that

11    we'd referred to before, that's your signed document on the instructions

12    of Mr. Stanisic relating to the setting up of the Serbian MUP, in that

13    document, you began by saying:  "At its meeting held on 27th of March,

14    1992, the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina ...

15    promulgated the constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

16    Herzegovina."  And then lower down, you talk about -- you say:  "In that

17    respect, it passed a Law on Internal Affairs, which shall be uniformly

18    applied on the territory of the Republic of the Serbian People in Bosnia

19    and Herzegovina as of 1st of April, 1992, and appointed Mico Stanisic

20    until now an advisor in the BH MUP, as minister."

21            Is the explanation that the constitution was promulgated on the

22    27th of March, 1992, but the Law on Internal Affairs was earlier.  It's

23    this document.  This was passed at the session on the 28th of February?

24    That's correct, is it?

25       A.   I don't believe that the Law on Internal Affairs could be passed

Page 9324

 1    before the passing of the constitution as the supreme law.  Then the

 2    constitution must have been passed earlier on.

 3       Q.   It just doesn't seem all that likely, Mr. Mandic, with the

 4    greatest respect.  This apparently quite significant document that's

 5    reciting the -- I'm paying you a compliment here, in effect, Mr. Mandic,

 6    that's reciting these documents.  You would have taken care to make sure

 7    that the basic recitals were correct, wouldn't you, you and your

 8    colleagues in the ministry?

 9       A.   Yes.  I provided the information that I had in this dispatch,

10    because I did not attend the Assembly sessions where the constitution and

11    the Law on Internal Affairs were passed.  But obviously, the Law on

12    Internal Affairs was not passed before the 11th of February, 1992, but

13    only a decision to establish the Serbian MUP, at an extended Ministerial

14    Council meeting, where Mr. Stanisic was present as a member of the

15    council, and there was the Assembly decision, and only 16 days later was

16    the Law on Internal Affairs actually passed by the Assembly.  Therefore,

17    this particular document, my dispatch, and this meeting in Banja Luka

18    explain the course in which the events took place in terms of the

19    Assembly, the Ministerial Council, and the Serb members of the joint MUP.

20       Q.   Can you help us then, Mr. Mandic.  In the document that you sent

21    out dated the 31st of March, 1992, you said, it's three paragraphs down in

22    that document:  "On the day this law comes into force," that's the Law on

23    Internal Affairs, because there's no other law you're referring to, "the

24    security services centre and public security stations of the Socialist

25    Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP on the territory of the Serbian

Page 9325

 1    Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina are abolished and cease to function,

 2    and their authority, i.e., tasks and duties within the competence of

 3    organs of Internal Affairs are taken over by the above-mentioned

 4    organisational units of MUP of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

 5    Herzegovina."

 6            Can you help us, Mr. Mandic?  You've got the document in the

 7    original Serbian there.  Where do we find that specific provision?  It's

 8    quite a long document, including some stuff about school uniforms, so I --

 9    can you assist the Trial Chamber, and me, incidentally, to identify where

10    in this document, Law on Internal Affairs, we find the provisions relating

11    to the ceasing of functioning of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

12    Herzegovina MUP and the duties being taken over by the MUP of the Serbian

13    Republic?

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

15            MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, excuse me.  I don't know if it's an

16    important aspect of the cross-examination that the witness actually search

17    for it or if it would be helpful if I identify a likely --

18            MR. STEWART:  I have no objection whatever to Mr. Tieger speeding

19    us to the right point, Your Honour.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you refer to 126, Mr. Tieger?

21            MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23            MR. STEWART:  Thank you.

24       Q.   Yes.  We see -- thank you for that.  126, that's what you're

25    referring to in your document; is that right?

Page 9326

 1       A.   That's right.

 2       Q.   And then the 127 is consequential on that, is it, as far as --

 3    well, it's more general, but it's consequential as far as MUP employees

 4    are concerned?

 5       A.   That's right.  This was regulated by the Law on Internal Affairs,

 6    as I had mentioned in my dispatch.  It seems to me that I also mentioned

 7    the Sarajevo Agreement.  This was an agreement on the Cutileiro Plan that

 8    was verified in Lisbon on the 30th of March, a day before the dispatch was

 9    sent out.

10       Q.   And what is the particular point you're making in relation to the

11    Sarajevo Agreement?

12       A.   I think that the Sarajevo Agreement hinges on this.  The agreement

13    on the cantonisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina along the ethnic lines.

14       Q.   Well, isn't the position this: That among other things, the

15    Sarajevo Agreement did contemplate arrangements which would include a

16    separate Serb MUP?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   So in your recollection -- and we -- most of this is checkable as

19    far as documents are concerned, Mr. Mandic, but in your recollection there

20    was a decision of the Assembly before the meeting on the 11th of February.

21    There was the meeting of the 11th of February in Banja Luka, at which you

22    were present.  There was subsequently, as we see, 28th of February

23    Assembly session at which the Law on Internal Affairs was passed

24    containing this provision, essentially consistent with an element of the

25    Sarajevo agreement, Cutileiro Plan, and then on the 31st of March, on the

Page 9327

 1    instructions of Mr. Stanisic, you issue a document which faithfully

 2    implements and reflects the Law on Internal Affairs which has been passed.

 3    Is that a correct sequence of events, as far as you're concerned?

 4       A.   That's right, Mr. Stewart.

 5       Q.   And the Law on Internal Affairs, as one would expect under the

 6    system in operation, it's signed by Mr. Krajisnik, as president of the

 7    Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina, because that's

 8    what he is and that's the procedure which has to be adopted in relation to

 9    any law passed by the Assembly?

10       A.   Yes.  The president of the Assembly signed all the documents

11    promulgated by the president of the Republic.

12       Q.   And so Mr. Krajisnik's part in this, he was the president of an

13    Assembly which was supportive, in the sense that it actually positively

14    approved and passed, supportive of a decision and eventually of a law that

15    was consistent with that element in the Sarajevo Agreement, which you then

16    signed in that way, but that is the limit of what you know about

17    Mr. Krajisnik's involvement in this particular matter; is that correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And if we simply invite you to do this, if we leave aside - we can

20    argue about that, Mr. Krajisnik's position as president of the Assembly -

21    every deputy of the Assembly who voted in favour of this proposal was

22    giving the same individual support to the decision of the Assembly in the

23    context as I've just outlined it to you?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   In your evidence on Wednesday, the 24th of November, and this is

Page 9328

 1    at page 57 --

 2            MR. STEWART:  And Your Honour, I'm giving up giving the other

 3    reference to the continuous transcript, because for technical rather than

 4    arithmetical reasons, it just doesn't work, so it doesn't help anybody.

 5    So I'm --

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7            MR. STEWART:  So I'm sticking with page 57, and, well, Mr. Tieger

 8    will have to do his best.

 9       Q.   You were asked about an interview, and this was an interview

10    Exhibit number P424, though I don't think I need trouble you specifically

11    with the exhibit for a moment, Mr. Mandic, unless we get stuck in some

12    way.  But you said -- included in that interview, it was actually the

13    fifth question, so it's referred to page 57 as the transcript.  You said:

14    "As a man, I am very devoted to both Slobodan Milosevic and to Radovan

15    Karadzic.  With Karadzic and Krajisnik, I began the war in Sarajevo, and

16    now, when I am sitting here and watching what happened, I find

17    justification for the Serbian leadership of Yugoslavia."

18            As a matter of fact, Mr. Mandic, I objected to that question, but

19    never mind.  That's the passage in the interview: "I began the war -- with

20    Karadzic and Krajisnik, I began the war in Sarajevo."  Now, that's a very

21    large claim or admission, depending how one characterises it, Mr. Mandic.

22    You were asked some questions about this.  But with or without anybody

23    else, is that really literally your position that you began the war in

24    Sarajevo?

25       A.   Mr. Stewart, first of all, I do not recall this interview.  And

Page 9329

 1    only a part of it was shown to me.  Now, whether these are sensationalist

 2    newspapers or merely views of these journalists there, I don't know, but I

 3    don't believe I placed myself among the political establishment of the

 4    Serbian people.

 5       Q.   I think perhaps it is fair.  It's a pretty sensitive area,

 6    Your Honours.  I think it's fair, Mr. Mandic, that you should have that

 7    exhibit, 424.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  It gives me, meanwhile, an opportunity, Mr. Tieger,

 9    to understand the previous document, which is the Treanor document, and a

10    lot of questions.  I noticed that in the English translation, we do

11    neither find the date of the 28th of February, nor do we have a date of

12    publication the 23rd of March.  So in order to understand the testimony, I

13    would at least have some additional information to the translation.

14    Because the whole sequence in time is -- you can't follow that if you only

15    have the English translation.

16            Please proceed.

17            MR. STEWART:  But, Your Honour, we think what happened was that we

18    were later supplied, very helpfully, by the Prosecution with a new or

19    corrected or new, improved translation, which does have that information

20    on it, and I was working from that.  So that may be the explanation, in

21    which case, clearly, one way or the other, we ought to ensure that that

22    new, improved version finds its way to Your Honours.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  And of course in the original you can more or less

24    decipher the dates.

25            MR. STEWART:  Yes, indeed.

Page 9330

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  But --

 2            MR. STEWART:  I think that's what happened, Your Honour.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4            MR. STEWART:  We've got a better, more informative version.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  If you would please pay some attention to that,

 6    Mr. Tieger.  Then if there is this better version, if we could see it and

 7    see whether it could be replaced, then, by the new version.

 8            MR. STEWART:  We've got it, Your Honour, so there's no physical

 9    problem about that.  We've actually got it in our hands here.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I could just have a look at it.

11            MR. STEWART:  Yes, indeed, Your Honour.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  And then you may proceed meanwhile.  Because my ears

13    and my eyes are two different functioning movements.  Yes.  That's exactly

14    what gives the better information, the difference between the original in

15    the Treanor binder and this version.

16            MR. STEWART:  We'll sort it out for Your Honours, then.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If the Prosecution would agree that this

18    translation is replaced by this version, which is a version with all the

19    headings, as we find them in the Official Gazette.

20            MR. TIEGER:  No.  Certainly, Your Honour.  And I'm pleased the

21    Court brought that to our attention.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you'll provide a copy and then

23    Madam Registrar --

24            MR. STEWART:  We can happily leave that with the Prosecution for

25    the moment if it's easier for them.

Page 9331

 1            MR. TIEGER:  I just wanted to make sure we had the correct ERN

 2    number so make sure there was no further complication.  We can now return

 3    it.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5            MR. STEWART:  Thank you.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Then the Chamber expects a copy to be provided to

 7    Madam Registrar which could then replace it in the Treanor binder.

 8            Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

 9            MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10       Q.   Mr. Mandic, you've now got, I think -- you've seen it briefly

11    before, but you've now got, I hope, a copy of an interview which

12    apparently was published in something called Ekstra magazine.  You have

13    that?  And the passage previously referred to and is being again now, is

14    under the heading "How did you personally take the political conflict and

15    severance of relations --"

16            MR. STEWART:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

17       Q.   It's the second page left-hand column, I'm told, Mr. Mandic, and

18    it says "How did you personally take the political conflict and severance

19    of relations between Republika Srpska and the Federal Republic of

20    Yugoslavia?"  And then it goes:  "As a man, I'm very devoted ..." and so

21    on.  So you might want to just take a moment to refresh your memory and

22    to, well, read that.

23       A.   Yes, I've read it.

24       Q.   Well, it's some years later, but I'll ask you the first question,

25    Mr. Mandic.  Do you actually have any recollection of giving such an

Page 9332

 1    interview?

 2       A.   No.  This paper was, I think, from Bijeljina, this Ekstra

 3    magazine. I don't think it exists any longer.  This was a weekly, what we

 4    would call yellow press.  Here in the beginning, as I can see, it says:

 5    "Momcilo Mandic, a long-time and prominent member of the SDS," which isn't

 6    true, and probably there's other stuff that isn't true as well.  I saw

 7    this for the first time when Mr. Tieger showed it to me.

 8       Q.   So, Mr. Mandic, are you -- I just want to be clear.  Are you

 9    suggesting that the journalist, the editors, might erroneously have

10    included a passage referring to your assertion that you began the war in

11    Sarajevo?

12       A.   I don't think that I was as ambitious as that at that time,

13    either -- to define myself as the man who had started the war in Bosnia

14    and Herzegovina.  I don't know how at all would I have been able to do

15    such a thing.

16       Q.   Can we take it, Mr. Mandic:  We can exclude, as far as you're

17    concerned, can we, the at least logically prior possibility that this

18    article is a total fabrication and that no such interview with you took

19    place and it's a complete invention?  You wouldn't suggest such a

20    startling position, would you?

21       A.   Believe me, Mr. Stewart, when I say that I don't remember this

22    article and that I saw it for the first time when Mr. Tieger showed it to

23    me.  Evidently, this text dates from the time when I was head of the

24    bureau in Belgrade, and this paper is from Bosnia, Republika Srpska.

25       Q.   I just want to be clear whether you're suggesting that it is a

Page 9333

 1    possibility that the whole thing is a complete fabrication or whether

 2    we're at least starting from the position that you're acknowledging that

 3    some such interview took place, which is broadly reflected in this

 4    newspaper article.

 5       A.   Mr. Stewart, I don't remember this interview.  I don't remember

 6    ever giving one, this one.  There are some illogical assertions here that

 7    make no sense about my relationship with Karadzic and Milosevic that seems

 8    to exaggerate our intimacy.  Then the fact that I was a prominent member

 9    of the Serbian Democratic Party.  I have evidently never been a member of

10    the SDS.  And there are some other illogical matters here, and I really do

11    not remember anything related to this article.

12       Q.   Is a statement such as that, in whatever circumstances, at

13    whatever time, is a statement such as that, that "I began the war in

14    Sarajevo" one that you could and would ever have made?

15       A.   I would never say that.

16       Q.   And it therefore --

17       A.   This would seem like really improper boasting.

18            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, I'm afraid -- just for the moment, I --

19    it may have come up in the course of the evidence or subsequent discussion

20    as to what the date of this article was.  It was -- at the time it

21    initially came up, it was going to be checked, but I'm afraid I now can't

22    remember whether we were then subsequently informed of the date.  I'm just

23    wondering -- help.  I'm wondering whether anybody else remembers.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  As far as I remember, the information given to us was

25    by the context, it was situated during the period when Mr. Mandic was in

Page 9334

 1    Belgrade.  Is that --

 2            MR. STEWART:  Yes, Your Honour.  With respect, I certainly agree

 3    with that.  It didn't narrow it down terribly far, was I think the point.

 4    At the foot of page 49, Your Honour said:  "Mr. Tieger, you're invited to

 5    give further details as soon as possible on the -- I'm invited to slow

 6    down:  "Mr. Tieger, you're invited to give further details as soon as

 7    possible on the date of publication of the Ekstra magazine."  And

 8    Mr. Tieger said:  "I will advise the Court at the earliest opportunity."

 9    I apologise, Your Honour, if somewhere later in the transcript that

10    opportunity was later taken and I've just overlooked it or -- I don't

11    remember where it was.  Well, my cry for help is going unheeded.  I don't

12    seem to be alone here in not knowing when it was.

13       Q.   Mr. Mandic -- well, I know it's not really fair to ask you,

14    Mr. Mandic, because you've said already you have no recollection whatever

15    of it.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, could you provide any assistance, any

17    further assistance?  What I -- what my attention is drawn to is that at

18    least reference is made to something that happened in September 1993,

19    which suggests that this is after September 1993.

20            MR. TIEGER:  Well, Your Honour, I can only -- I can't provide

21    additional guidance other than the type that the Court is engaged in now,

22    that is, a contextual analysis of the document itself.  As I understand

23    it, when this document was obtained, it was copied in a manner that did

24    not provide the date.  I mean, I'm not in a position to actually determine

25    the date specifically from a portion of the document in our possession. So

Page 9335

 1    the contextual analysis that we engaged in before and that the Court was

 2    conducting a moment ago is -- we can participate in that as well, but no

 3    further guidance is available, as I understand it.

 4            MR. STEWART:  Well, Your Honour, it's not a very narrow dating,

 5    but I note that on the last page of the English, a paragraph beginning:

 6    "As for September 1993 ..."  And it begins -- sorry - it ends, I beg your

 7    pardon, the last sentence:  "The September operation was organised for

 8    entirely different matters of which it will perhaps be possible to mention

 9    in five or ten years, perhaps when the war ends."

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's exactly the same as on the bottom of

11    page 4, where the article says something about the participants in the

12    September 1993 operation.  So that's --

13            MR. STEWART:  Yes.  Well, it gives us a start and a finish,

14    Your Honour.  It's no earlier than September 1993, but it's no later than,

15    well, the end of 1995, when we suppose that the war is taken to have

16    ended.  So it's two years, is the frame.

17       Q.   But, Mr. Mandic, I suggest we can take it from your answers and

18    confirm that -- I asked you whatever time, so during that period from

19    after September 1993, while apparently the war was still continuing,

20    according to the text and context, your evidence is that you could and

21    would have never made any such statement that you started the war in

22    Sarajevo.  That's your position, isn't it?

23       A.   That's correct.

24       Q.   And it follows, perhaps, as a piece of elementary logic, that if

25    you would never have made any such statement that you began the war in

Page 9336

 1    Sarajevo, you therefore could and would not have made any statement that

 2    you began the war in Sarajevo with Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, both of

 3    them, or anybody else in the world?

 4       A.   Well, from my evidence given so far to the Prosecution and to

 5    yourself, Mr. Stewart, it transpires that everything that happened in

 6    early 1992 doesn't fit in with any allusion that I started the war with

 7    Karadzic, Krajisnik, or whoever.  This decision to establish the Serbian

 8    MUP was preceded by a number of incidents and skirmishes, and there was a

 9    series of events that followed from each other.

10       Q.   Without, if necessary, going into those, are you, by that comment,

11    are you saying, Mr. Mandic, that the-- that the decision, from everything

12    that you could see and knew at the time, that the decision to establish a

13    separate Serbian MUP was a justified, reasonable decision to take and

14    implement?

15       A.   It follows from that meeting in Banja Luka, where individual

16    officials, Serbs, presented the problems encountered in the operation of

17    the mixed MUP and that the growing numbers of Muslim policemen in the

18    reserve forces of the MUP, and they were trying to point out these

19    problems to Minister Alija Delimustafic.  As for this meeting in Banja

20    Luka, it was attended by highly qualified professionals, policemen who had

21    been in the service for 10, 15 years, all of them graduates of a police

22    academy when it was still a joint academy.  And they were policemen before

23    everything else.  They expressed what they felt and thought.  I'm speaking

24    now about the meeting in Banja Luka.

25       Q.   So, therefore, when you referred to -- you said "the decision to

Page 9337

 1    establish the Serbian MUP was preceded by a number of incidents and

 2    skirmishes," can we be clear which decision in that sequence of decisions

 3    and resolutions and laws and so on, which decision are you referring to

 4    then?

 5       A.   The decision of the Assembly of the Serbian People to establish a

 6    Serbian Ministry of the Interior.  This decision was presented by Nenad

 7    Radovic, who read out the text of the decision.  He was then assistant

 8    minister for appointments in the MUP.  And Mr. Stanisic conveyed at the

 9    same meeting the conclusions of the Ministerial Council in its extended

10    composition concerning the MUP, including the conclusion that a Serbian

11    MUP should be established.

12       Q.   So the incidents and skirmishes that you referred to, because you

13    said "this decision to establish the Serbian MUP was preceded by a number

14    of incidents and skirmishes."  So those incidents and skirmishes happened,

15    well, certainly sometime before the 11th of February.  They were in late

16    1991 and early 1992, were they?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And could you give an illustration of a skirmish that you have in

19    mind as part of the background?

20       A.   I think it was in February that we had a great problem committing

21    a special unit of the MUP which went to ethnically pure areas populated by

22    Serbs.  They rounded up people and took them into custody, inspecting them

23    for possession of weapons, et cetera.  Those were incidents, and we had

24    meetings in Krtelj with the leadership of the special unit, and at one

25    point we reached an agreement that it may not be activated without the

Page 9338

 1    approval of three leaders of different ethnicities.  I remember incidents

 2    in Bileca, in Foca, in the settlement of Pofalici in Sarajevo, in Stari

 3    Grad, and so on.

 4            Another great problem which I mentioned two or three times was the

 5    lack of control of enrolment in the police force.  People were admitted

 6    without being vetted, and sometimes even criminals were engaged as

 7    policemen.  Because the priority was to establish an ethnic composition of

 8    the police force which would reflect the exact ethnic composition of the

 9    country, which was impossible as an objective.

10            I have to remind you:  At the beginning, when the national parties

11    only came into power, there were 10.000 employees in the Ministry of the

12    Interior.  I'm speaking only about the uniformed staff.  Over 7.000 of

13    them were Serbs.  A little over 2.000 were Muslims, and very few were

14    Croats.  And that was a problem that the parties immediately emphasised as

15    a problem and wanted an immediate change.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, there's just part of this answer, I'd

17    like to seek a clarification.

18            MR. STEWART:  Indeed, Your Honour.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  I just don't understand it.

20            Mr. Mandic, you said that there was a "great problem committing a

21    special unit of the MUP which went to ethnically pure areas populated by

22    Serbs."  And then you say:  "They rounded up people."  Who are "they"?  Is

23    this the special unit of the MUP?  Did the special unit of the MUP round

24    up people and take them into custody?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  The special unit

Page 9339

 1    was a unit for special purposes.  Only upon the orders of the minister

 2    were they able to intervene on certain security missions and law

 3    enforcements missions.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  You're explaining, but I'm just trying to understand

 5    what you said before.  You said:  "I think it was in February that we had

 6    a great problem committing a special unit of the MUP which went to

 7    ethnically pure areas populated by Serbs."  And then you said:  "They

 8    rounded up people and took them into custody, inspecting them for

 9    possession of weapons, et cetera."  Who did you mean by "they"?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The special unit, composed of

11    policemen of all ethnicities - it was a mixed special unit - went to

12    ethnically pure Serb settlements, searched houses, looking for weapons and

13    arrested people.  And that was a political problem vis-a-vis the MUP.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was just asking who you meant by "they" and

15    now I do understand by your answer that by "they," you meant the special

16    unit of the MUP that went there.  Now, you gave a few examples:  "We

17    reached an agreement that it may not be activated without the approval of

18    three leaders of the different ethnicities.  I remember incidents in

19    Bileca, in Foca, in the settlement of Pofalici in Sarajevo, in Stari Grad,

20    and so on."

21            Earlier you referred to the special unit being committed to purely

22    Serb areas.  I do understand that this is not about sending them to purely

23    Serb areas any more, or is it?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  So the examples you gave were mixed areas, or at

Page 9340

 1    least non-purely Serb areas; is that correct?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I gave the example of

 3    Pofalici, Bileca, Foca, Stari Grad.  They were purely Serb neighbourhoods

 4    and areas.  Later, when political problems arose at the level of the

 5    Assembly among MPs, between parties, and within the Ministry of the

 6    Interior, we appointed three leaders of the special unit, or special

 7    units, each representing one of the ethnic groups, to decide together on

 8    any engagement, any missions of the special unit, to avoid future problems

 9    of the same kind that we had discussed.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Now at least I -- I was just trying to understand

11    you.  You say all the areas you mentioned, including Stari Grad and

12    Pofalici, were purely Serb areas.  Yes.  Thank you.

13            Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.  Well, we are close to 7.00 anyhow.

14            MR. STEWART:  May I mention, Your Honour.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16            MR. STEWART:  Ms. Cmeric suggests that the question that

17    Your Honour asked, it's at line 20 to 22 of page 80, when Your Honour

18    said:  "I do understand this is not about sending them to purely Serb

19    areas any more, or is it?"  Ms. Cmeric suggests that it may be that the

20    negative got dropped from the translation, which would explain an awful

21    lot of what comes afterwards, actually.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  At least now it's clear that the witness says that

23    the four examples he gave were examples of where he's speaking about an

24    intervention in purely Serb areas.

25            MR. STEWART:  Indeed, Your Honour, and that seems to fit.

Page 9341

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mandic, it's 7.00.  We adjourn for the day.  I

 2    have one procedural issue to deal with for a moment, but I'd like to

 3    instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony you have given

 4    or you're still about to give, and we'd like to see you back at a quarter

 5    past 2.00 tomorrow in the same courtroom.  Oh, no.  I'm making a mistake.

 6    We're not sitting tomorrow.  It's either age or time.  Mr. Mandic, we're

 7    not sitting tomorrow.  Tomorrow is a meeting of the Judges, a plenary

 8    meeting, so none of the Chambers will sit tomorrow.  The day after

 9    tomorrow, a quarter past 2.00, in this same courtroom.  So that is the 9th

10    of December.

11            Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Mandic out of the

12    courtroom.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14                          [The witness stands down]

15            JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to turn into private session for just a

16    second, and since we'll then adjourn for the day, those in the public

17    gallery might not have a great interest in returning once they have left

18    the public gallery.

19      [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Trial Chamber]

20            JUDGE ORIE:  We're now in private session.  One of the pending

21    issues is the request to release the closed-session testimony of Milan

22    Babic and the related exhibits under seal.  The Chamber is willing to

23    accommodate this request by the Defence, thus lifting the confidentiality

24    on transcript pages on from 3323 to the end of this testimony, as well as

25    all related exhibits.  It will, however, formally do so only on the 31st

Page 9342

 1    of January of 2005.  Since this allows the parties, as well as Mr. Babic

 2    himself, the opportunity to file further submissions on specific and

 3    objective elements showing the real likelihood of danger or risk still

 4    existing and that the Chamber should reconsider its willingness to proceed

 5    as it just said.

 6            The Chamber, therefore, kindly requests the registrar to convey

 7    this portion of the transcript to the Victims and Witness Section and to

 8    Mr. Babic.

 9            This is the issue I would like to deal with in private session.

10    Perhaps we return now into open session.

11                          [Open session]

12            JUDGE ORIE:  We're back in open session.  If there are no other

13    procedural issues to be raised, we'll adjourn until the 9th of December,

14    so the day after tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, same courtroom.

15                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

16                          to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of

17                          December 2004, at 2.15 a.m.