1 Tuesday, 1 March 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Momcilo Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Before I give the opportunity to the Prosecution to call its next
10 witness, I'd first like to respond to a request made earlier by Ms.
11 Loukas. She asked the Chamber for guidance on the use of the Rule 89(F)
12 procedure. That was already quite some time ago. But it has some
13 relevance for the examination of expert witnesses as well, so I'll give
14 the guidance. And it also, as I said, gives some guidance for experts.
15 On the 21st of October, 2004, the Defence, you, Ms. Loukas, asked
16 the Chamber for guidance on the use of the Rule 89(F) procedure. The
17 Defence said that, in that instant, that the Prosecution had
18 inappropriately designated Witness 144 as a Rule 89(F) witness. The
19 Defence compared that choice with the choice made by the Prosecution to
20 examine the next witness, Mr. Pasic, as a non-89(F) witness. The Defence
21 suggested, at least to my understanding, that the Chamber should designate
22 two categories of witnesses: One category constituting those fact
23 witnesses who may be examined using 89(F), and the second constituting
24 those fact witnesses who may not.
25 On the 10th of November, Mr. Stewart has raised a -- although a
1 slightly different issue, namely, that a number of important allegations
2 are to be found in various parts of Mr. Bjelobrk's statement, and that
3 these allegations were not explored in examination-in-chief, that is to
4 say, that they were not elicited orally.
5 In relation to the point raised by Ms. Loukas, the Chamber's view,
6 the issue is not one of categorising witnesses, it is an issue of
7 categorising content. There is no dispute that the efficiency attained by
8 the use of 89(F) procedure must be balanced against the accused's right to
9 a fair trial. The Chamber, and of course the Defence, must be given a
10 fair opportunity to assess the evidence of a witness on important matters
11 during the examination-in-chief.
12 Accordingly, evidence concerning significant acts and conduct of
13 the accused, evidence relating to issues critical and pivotal to the
14 Prosecution's case, and evidence concerning persons or events
15 significantly proximate to the accused should be presented orally by the
16 witness in examination-in-chief. I've called these three criteria.
17 It is true of any witness that if his or her evidence meets one of
18 these three criteria, that portion of the evidence must be elicited
19 orally. Other evidence which does not have these characteristics may be
20 admitted in written form by way of the 89(F) procedure. The test is
21 always content, not the type of witness.
22 I will now address the point raised by Mr. Stewart.
23 It follows from what I just said that if any part of the statement
24 of a witness meets one of the three criteria, and if the witness is not
25 examined on that part of the statement, then that part of the statement
1 must be redacted and it will not be admitted into evidence.
2 I would like to add a related remark about expert witnesses, and
3 that is, as I explained, the reason why I give this guidance at this very
5 There is no doubt that, for an expert opinion to have any value,
6 the facts on which it is based must be before the Court. This does not
7 mean, however, that the present Bench Finds it necessary or even advisable
8 to examine every item of supporting material behind every opinion
9 expressed by an expert. We, that is the Judges, are content to be guided
10 by the parties of the expert which are critical and pivotal to this case
11 and to the corresponding underlying documentation. Unchallenged opinions
12 will be assessed by the Chamber in light of the relevance these opinions
13 appear to have for the case as a whole. The basis for inferences critical
14 for the findings in this case will be duly examined and checked by the
15 Chambers, while unchallenged peripheral opinions will be, as a rule,
16 accepted as such.
17 A practical consequence of the above remark is that the Chamber
18 does not expect the examining party to present to its expert witness each
19 and every item of the often myriad supporting materials underlying his or
20 her report. It suffices to have the expert confront those items which
21 underpin important or contested opinions. The other items may be
22 proffered and, of course, if necessary, also challenged, for admission
23 into evidence after the expert has completed his or her testimony.
24 I turn finally to the 89(F) procedure as adopted at the 65 ter
25 conference on the 16th of April, 2004.
1 In light of our experience with the procedure thus far, and in
2 light of my comments of a moment ago, the Chamber has some modifications
3 to propose, and I'll hand them down on a sheet of paper showing the
4 modified parts in italics. It will be provided to the parties later. It
5 is a refinement of the earlier instructions. So that will be given to the
6 parties later on. Again, the reason why we come back to the 89(F)
7 procedure is because there is some link to the expert witnesses, as I just
8 set out.
9 Ms. Loukas.
10 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. We are, of course,
11 grateful for the guidance that the Trial Chamber has given in relation to
12 the 89(F) procedure. There's just one point that I'd also like to place
13 on the record, that my query was directed to the type of evidence a
14 witness would give, and Your Honour answer has been in those terms as
15 well. And we are, indeed, grateful for that clarification and
16 delineation, as there seem to be some misunderstanding and misuse up to
17 that point of the 89(F) procedure. And we are, indeed, grateful for that,
18 Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Loukas.
20 Mr. Hannis, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
21 MR. HANNIS: We are, Your Honour. I did want to address, with the
22 Court's procedural matters with regard to how I intend to proceed with
23 marking exhibits for this witness and presenting her exhibits. I can do
24 that while she's in the room or before she comes in --
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I say that I have a couple of
1 things, nothing to do with this witness, that I would be grateful raising,
2 but I'm in Your Honours' hands --
3 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you need for it, and is there any
4 urgency --
5 MR. STEWART: Very short points, Your Honour, not more than five
6 minutes overall.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. STEWART: The first is this, your Honour. It's really to
9 follow on from yesterday, which is why I raise it now.
10 In relation to the submissions made by Mr. Tieger, and Your
11 Honours will recall his description of what was done with this CD, what
12 was done with that index, and so on, Your Honour, I did take the trouble
13 to confirm with my case manager the specific example that I had given Your
14 Honours about the CDs and the hard disks. I was both right and wrong. I
15 was wrong in the incidental, trivial way that apparently the Prosecution
16 CDs were not brought to us to put on our hard disk, but our hard disk went
17 to them to put the CDs on. That's a difference of no distinction
18 whatever. Where I was correct in what I informed the Trial Chamber about
19 was that it was the Prosecution's suite of CDs which was put on our hard
20 disk, and it was not simply that they came along. And I won't repeat the
21 language I used yesterday. It wasn't that they came along and did the job
22 for us of putting our own CDs on our own hard disk.
23 But beyond that, Your Honour, without going into painful detail
24 this morning, my case manager came to the conclusion at one point that
25 everybody in court had got it wrong on every single point throughout the
1 entire day. But she did come down a little bit from that proposition in
2 the end. But certainly, from my discussion with her, was that it seemed
3 that Mr. Tieger's account, let's say, is open to serious discussion, Your
4 Honour. So it leads to this conclusion: That if there is any question of
5 the Trial Chamber attaching any weight to the outline that Mr. Tieger gave
6 as to what's happened, then, Your Honour, we would like to have the
7 opportunity of addressing those points specifically before Your Honours
8 reach a decision. On the other hand, if Your Honours are content to
9 disregard what was said, and of course Mr. Tieger is not in court so it's
10 a little bit hard to be suggesting you might disregard everything he said
11 yesterday when he's not here, then the problem's solved.
12 But, Your Honour, that's the position. We -- it was a detailed
13 list of items. It is open to considerable question as to whether it was
14 done in the way described, and there we are, Your Honour, on that point.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether or not to ignore that.
16 Mr. Hannis, you have heard Mr. Stewart, as he did yesterday, has
17 contested at least that part of the statement given by Mr. Tieger
18 yesterday. The Chamber is not seeking lengthy oral argument on that
19 because it seems not to be critical for the decision to be taken, although
20 it might not be totally irrelevant. If there's any reason for Mr. Tieger
21 to come back to it, so that means he considers it's of rather great
22 importance, then we'll hear from you. If we don't hear by today, then
23 we'll just accept the way Mr. Stewart perceived the hard disk travelling
24 and filled with information from CDs that were not in a similar way
25 organised in the previous CDs.
1 MR. HANNIS: That's fine, Your Honour. I'll check with Mr. Tieger
2 and inform the Court.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, thank you.
4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I simply --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. STEWART: -- register some discomfort at the distinction
7 between -- the phrase "not critical for the decision" and then "not
8 totally irrelevant." We feel uncomfortable something you regard as not
9 critical but not totally irrelevant. It is an unsatisfactory distinction,
10 with respect.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I said "not totally irrelevant," because you
12 asked us to ignore it. Then I sought a way out, and I thought it was not
13 of great importance for our decision. And at the same time, I said, since
14 it might not be totally irrelevant, the general observations made, and you
15 attacked it on a specific point; therefore, the Chamber would like to know
16 whether the Prosecution accepts your criticism, yes or no, and we have
17 given an opportunity for Mr. Tieger to come back to it. If he doesn't do
18 that, we accept your criticism.
19 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. STEWART: The other point, Your Honour, does relate, and as
22 sometimes happens, I can certainly go a few sentences at the very least
23 into the matter in open session, but I'm aware, Your Honour, that every
24 time we're discussing something which relates to something which has
25 happened in private session, we have to proceed rather carefully. And it
1 relates to an exchange which took place. I've got it at page 3 of
2 yesterday's transcript. And Your Honours indicated an imminent decision
3 which you propose to make.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. STEWART: And I had expressed a grievance with the Trial
6 Chamber, or Your Honours' observation --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. STEWART: -- in saying that there would be certain aspects that
9 there perhaps was no need to draw the attention of the public to.
10 Your Honour, having looked at that transcript, the extent of my
11 acceptance of what made sense - I hope that's not regarded as an
12 offensive way of putting it, Your Honour - but my acceptance of what made
13 sense is really very limited, Your Honour, and the Defence would not, with
14 respect, accept the comments that, without argument, the comments that
15 Your Honour then made immediately after I had said that that made sense,
16 in principle, and I have no further observation. In a nutshell, Your
17 Honour, the position is this:
18 An indication was given by the Trial Chamber, as it was then
19 constituted before Christmas, that it was inclined, I think that was the
20 phrase, the Trial Chamber was inclined to lift the private session
21 protective nature -- protective measures in relation to this particular
22 witness' evidence, and, in effect, invited submissions on the footing that
23 it was quite clear that the invitation was, to anybody -- either party who
24 was going to oppose that. So in circumstances where the Defence had no
25 opposition whatever to a total lifting, we made no submissions pending any
1 submissions being made by the Prosecution. So no submissions were made.
2 Yesterday, the indication that there might be some -- a very
3 substantial lifting but with some reservations just leaves this, Your
4 Honour, that before a final decision is taken in relation to continuation
5 of protection in relation to any material, the Defence would wish to make
6 submissions. So there are two ways of doing it, Your Honour. We'd
7 suggest the most practical course is this: That, if Your Honours proceed
8 in the way that you do have in mind, and you do give your decision as to
9 what lifting of the confidentiality and private session is to occur, but
10 then, seeing what is left, that Your Honours then have in mind to keep
11 private and keep confidential, before a final decision is made in relation
12 to those items, would the Trial Chamber then give the Defence the
13 opportunity of making submissions. And we suggest that's a more practical
14 course because, after all, we will then at that point know where Your
15 Honours at least provisionally are proposing to draw the line between
16 what's lifted and what isn't lifted, so that will make the submissions
17 more productive because they will be directed towards -- when we
18 specifically know what it is we're talking about.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether an opportunity will be given to make
20 any oral submissions is another matter. But the first to come is a
21 decision to make public the testimony and the exhibits related to that,
22 and then we'll deal with the rest of it. Whether you'll be invited to
23 indicate what, in that case, the Defence would consider should not be made
24 public or what should be made public, or whether we come with a suggestion
25 what the Chamber is inclined to make public or not, and to give an
1 opportunity to the parties to give a comment on that, we'll consider that
2 at a later stage.
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I reserve at this point, without
4 entering into further unrespectful debate, but, Your Honour, an
5 opportunity to a party, having given an occasion -- before Christmas,
6 there would be a complete removal, an opportunity for a party to make
7 observations, make some sort of submissions before a final decision is
8 made is elementary fair procedure, we suggest, Your Honour, so that we
9 hope that when the point comes, the Defence will -- whether it's written,
10 oral, whatever, whatever combination, we hope there will be no decision
11 made against us without the opportunity of making submissions.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I take it making public certain the testimony and the
13 exhibits is not necessary the end of the story. The confidentiality could
14 be lifted on any private-session debate on the matter prior to the
15 testimony at hand.
16 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour has it precisely, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll consider that.
18 Anything else? If not, then, Mr. Hannis, it is you who is going
19 to examine the expert Witness, Ms. Hanson?
20 MR. HANNIS: Ms. Hanson, yes. It is me.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Madam Usher, could you please escort Ms.
22 Hanson to the courtroom.
23 Yes, you'd like to make submissions on the presentation. We have
24 been informed that 468 exhibits will be presented, that we find them in 16
25 binders, that, for the presentation, that another seven binders -- well,
1 organised in such a way that it could help us through the material
2 relatively quickly, are prepared. That's how we understood it, and that
3 only the 16 binders will be tendered into evidence. Is that a correct
5 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour. If I may explain --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. HANNIS: -- how I observe this. Ms. Hanson's expert report we
8 intend to mark as one exhibit, give it one number. Then we have a set of
9 16 binders that we call the master binders with 468 separate tabs.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I understand they get one number and just a tab
12 MR. HANNIS: One number with the tabs.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.
14 MR. HANNIS: And those 468 items include every document that was
15 mentioned in the footnote in Ms. Hanson's expert report and it includes
16 some additional items that we anticipate talking about today.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. HANNIS: I'll continue after we deal with the witness.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Ms. Hanson, I take it.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You're the only one I've said good morning to. I've
23 forgotten to say good morning to all the rest of those in the courtroom.
24 Good morning, Ms. Hanson. Before you give evidence in this court,
25 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
1 declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
2 but the truth. That, of course, for an expert is not all, because, in
3 your expert report, and I take it also in your answers, you'll give expert
4 opinion which requires you, apart from that, of course, everything should
5 be in accordance with the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
6 truth, but also to give a sincere, to the best of your abilities, the --
7 your opinion as an expert. I take it you understand that?
8 THE WITNESS: I do, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I invite you to make the solemn
11 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
12 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: DOROTHEA HANSON
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
15 Ms. Hanson, there seems to be some kind of -- it used to be called
16 a Mexican dog, I think, this noise coming around. Perhaps the technicians
17 could pay attention to that.
18 Please be seated, Ms. Hanson. You will first be examined by Mr.
19 Hannis, counsel for the Prosecution.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, please proceed.
22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'd like to continue with a
23 little explanation on the exhibits. I think it will be useful for the
24 witness as well. So all those exhibits are in the 16 binders, the master
25 binders, which we want to be the exhibit. Separately, we have seven
1 binders containing what we referred to as the presentation exhibits, those
2 that we'll be showing Ms. Hanson and talking to her about with the Court.
3 I have handed up to the Judges a schedule, an index of those items in the
4 order that they'll be presented in. I've also furnished that to the
5 Defence, to the Registry, and to the booth as well.
6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wonder if there are other copies,
7 because there are three of us here and it's not so easy for us to work
8 from one schedule.
9 MR. HANNIS: We have one extra copy.
10 MR. STEWART: Thank you.
11 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, with regard to the presentation
12 binders, we propose just to hand up the first two binders to Your Honours
13 and the Defence because I don't think we'll get beyond those first 81
14 items certainly before the first break.
15 And, Your Honour, there are, I think, approximately 330 tabs in
16 the presentation binders. However, that's not 330 separate items. Some
17 items appear more than once, but because they appear at different times in
18 our presentation, we put in a second copy of the same item at the
19 appropriate tab so that you don't have to go back and forth in your
20 binders. We can just simply proceed from 1 through 330 in the course of
21 the presentation.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. HANNIS: And lastly, before I begin with my examination of the
24 witness, I would like to explain how we've marked the tabs in the
25 presentation binders.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
2 MR. HANNIS: I'll wait for the Defence to have a chance to look at
4 You'll see the first tab, and on the right it's marked
5 "presentation binder number 1, presentation tab number 1." On the upper
6 left, there's a space for the Prosecution exhibit number, which will be
7 given as we go along. Below that we have the master binder number and the
8 master tab number, which should be, in essence, the exhibit number or the
9 subnumber for the exhibit number. And that tab is appearing on your
10 screen, I think, as well, from Sanction. And then we have information
11 about the ERN of the original, the English translation, and some
12 information about the date and the title of the document.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's perfectly clear.
14 MR. HANNIS: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour. Now I'd like to
16 First of all, Your Honour, we don't have a copy of her report
17 here. I'll have that delivered that later and we want to give that a
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to work with the copy of the report I've
20 annotated myself, and this is also an indication that the Chamber has
21 carefully read the report.
22 MR. HANNIS: Can we give that a number? And we'll furnish a hard
23 copy to the Registry at the next break.
24 THE REGISTRAR: The expert report will be Prosecution Exhibit
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 MR. HANNIS: And then, Your Honour, for the master binders with
3 the 468 tabs, we'd like to give that a separate number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The master binders will be Prosecution Exhibit
6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
7 Examined by Mr. Hannis:
8 Q. Ms. Hanson, I'd like to start now with asking you, first of all,
9 if we could put up your CV, and I'd like to just summarise briefly your
10 education and employment background. And if I leave something out or say
11 it wrong, will you please advise me?
12 A. All right.
13 Q. You graduated from Harvard University in 1984 with a bachelor of
14 arts in Russian and Soviet studies.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You later obtained in 1988 a master of arts in east European area
17 studies from the University of Washington in Seattle?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Then from 1990 to 1992, you were a Fullbright scholar and you were
20 in Belgrade, Yugoslavia, doing research at the military historical
21 institute of the Yugoslav People's Army --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, may I just ask: Is there any dispute
23 about the CV of Ms. Hanson?
24 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then we can read the CV, and it might even give us
1 some -- unless there's anything specific you'd like to -- but what you
2 have read now is just a repetition of what we can read.
3 MR. HANNIS: It is, Your Honour. I just wanted to do a little bit
4 for the --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand.
6 Ms. Hanson, if we say that there's no need to testify about it,
7 it's not because it's not important, it's just that we get the information
8 just as well by reading it.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. And you're currently employed by the ICTY OTP?
13 A. Yes, I am.
14 Q. What is your position?
15 A. I'm a research officer in the leadership research team in the
16 Office of the Prosecutor.
17 Q. And in the course of that employment, did you prepare an expert
18 report, in particular, for the use in this case?
19 A. Yes, I prepared a report on Bosnian Serb Crisis Staffs.
20 Q. Now, in the course of preparing that report, what were your source
21 materials that you used to write that report and reach the conclusions
22 which you did?
23 A. I examined the documentary collection in the possession of the
24 Tribunal. I looked at thousands of documents. Some of them are
25 collections of Crisis Staff minutes, other documents relating to Crisis
1 Staffs, and I also looked at intercepts, minutes of assembly sessions, and
2 all kinds of documents that could conceivably bear upon the question of
3 Bosnian Serb Crisis Staffs.
4 Q. And were you working with the original documents in any cases?
5 A. Yes. I worked primarily with B/C/S language documents.
6 Q. You read and understand Serbo-Croatian?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. And are you able to read Cyrillic as well?
9 A. Yes, I read Cyrillic as well.
10 Q. And the report you prepared on Bosnian Serb Crisis Staffs, I guess
11 I'd like to start out with you telling -- explaining briefly to the Court
12 when and how SDS Crisis Staffs came to be formed.
13 A. The SDS Crisis Staffs were formed, for the most part, upon the
14 receipt of the 19 December instructions, the variant A and B document.
15 That is the founding document. There are -- I found at least one
16 exception where there was a Crisis Staff formed earlier, but I will
17 discuss that when we do the Bratunac case study. But on the whole, the
18 founding document for SDS Crisis Staffs is the 19 December instructions,
19 and we see Crisis Staffs formed in late December, after 19 December and
20 later. Some were formed later as well.
21 Q. Did you find in your review of the documents indications that
22 these instructions had been distributed broadly within the various
23 municipalities within the former Bosnia?
24 A. Yes, various kinds of evidence that showed that they were
25 distributed broadly and received by different municipalities and
1 implemented by municipalities throughout Bosnia.
2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, briefly, we would like to show some of
3 those various versions of the instructions that were found, and I'll go
4 through those quickly.
5 Tab 2 in your presentation binder, which would be tab 22 in binder
6 1 of the master binders, if we can put that up on the screen.
7 Q. Can you see that in front of you, Ms. Hanson?
8 A. No, I see the transcript. Yes. Just to briefly show the
9 differences, this, as you can see, is numbered 047.
10 Q. And do you recall where that was obtained from?
11 A. Not without consultation of my -- on my notes. I don't remember
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. -- which one is from where, I'm afraid.
15 Q. Tab number 3, which is master binder 9, tab 375. Do you see that
17 A. No, my screen is blank. There it is. Number 55, this one, I do
18 know where this is from because it's come into our collection since my
19 report was written. Number 55 was from Livno.
20 Q. And approximately where in Bosnia is Livno located?
21 A. Livno is in -- towards the southern border with Dalmatia. It's in
22 a primarily Croatian-populated territory. Herzegovina.
23 Q. Next, tab number 4, which is master binder 1, tab 23.
24 A. My screen is blank, I'm sorry. 93, number 93.
25 Q. Yes. Do you recall where number 93 was from?
1 A. I believe it's from Trnovo. I'm not sure. I have that in my
2 notes here, but I don't -- I don't mind consulting it. It's in the
3 information available, I believe, on the record that indicates where it
4 came in. I'm sorry, because there's a number of them I don't recall.
5 Q. The tab binder indicates that this was from the bauxite office
6 from the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo.
7 Next one, tab 5, master binder 1, tab 27. Do you see that one?
8 A. Number 96.
9 Q. And the tab indicates from Trnovo. Does that sound correct?
10 A. Yes. The ERN is consistent with the Trnovo documents.
11 Q. Tab number 6, which is Hanson master binder 1, master tab 28.
12 A. That's number 100.
13 Q. The information on the tab reflects Sarajevo.
14 And tab number 7, master tab number 32.
15 A. This is 0 -- 10 or 101-3, and this one was found in Bosanski
17 Q. Presentation tab number 8?
18 JUDGE ORIE: We are now going through all the numbered copies of
19 these instructions, I mean, the instructions, as such, and several
20 numbered versions of it are in evidence. What's, at this moment, the use
21 of saying number so and so, we found there. Is there any dispute about
23 MR. STEWART: Well, Defence would actually like to know, Your
24 Honour, what the evidence is. If it's -- if there's a clear -- I don't
25 mind whether the witness confirms it by reference to a list or whether
1 we're told one by one. It's not for the Prosecution's case as to which we
2 suspect it would be, and we would like to know which of these documents is
3 said to come from where, then, Your Honour, one way or another, in the
4 most efficient way, we must hear it, please.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Has this not be set out in the footnotes of the
7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, most of these are in the report. As she
8 mentioned, tab number 3 from Livno was a new one. I have two more to go
9 and then we've going to have some explanation about the significance of
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. HANNIS: I apologise for taking --
13 JUDGE ORIE: We now just identified these documents as the
14 footnote material, plus one, as far as I understand. Please proceed.
15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
16 Q. Tab number 8 in the presentation binder, master tab number 35.
17 A. Number 104, and this one is different. It has a line on top
18 indicating that it was sent by fax on the 23rd of December, 1991.
19 Q. Do you recall where that faxed version of 104 was obtained from?
20 A. Also from Sarajevo, I believe from the briefcase of Radovan
22 Q. Tab number 9, which is master tab number 34.
23 A. It's another version of 104. It doesn't have the fax line.
24 Q. And finally, if we can go to tab number 10, which is master tab
25 number 23. Again, I think you've indicated that this translation is the
1 version that you prefer to work from?
2 A. This is the most complete translation, so that's why I included it
3 there as the -- my screen is blank, but that's what the ...
4 Q. I think it will be coming up shortly.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. This is number 093 which was from the Holiday Inn?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what is the -- what was the full title of this document?
9 A. "The Instructions on the Organisation and Activities of Organs of
10 the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina in Extraordinary
12 Q. How many municipalities were there in Bosnia before the war?
13 A. Approximately 110.
14 Q. What is the highest number you saw in any of --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down. Thank you.
16 MR. HANNIS:
17 Q. What was the highest number of the copies found in our collection?
18 A. 104.
19 Q. Now, I'd like to show you tab 11 in the presentation binder.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone please, Mr. Hannis.
21 MR. HANNIS: Sorry.
22 Q. I'd like to show you tab 11 in the presentation binder, which is
23 from master tab 51. Can you tell us what that is?
24 A. It is minutes of the meeting of the secretariat of the SDS of
25 Bosanski Petrovac on the 26th of September, 1991. Under item 2, it says
1 that "the instructions for the organisation and activities of organs of
2 the Serbian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina in extraordinary circumstances
3 should be retyped in seven examples," and each member of the secretariat
4 should get a copy.
5 If you'll recall, the copy from Bosanski Petrovac had a different
6 numbering than all the others. It was 101-3. That would be consistent
7 with the idea that it was retyped in multiple copies.
8 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honours, in connection with that, I would
9 like to remind the Court of the testimony from Mr. Hidic from Bosanski
10 Petrovac who talked about finding copies of documents in the municipality
11 building when he returned in 1995, and some of his testimony about various
12 copies in various typefaces.
13 Q. Now, in your report, you indicate that these documents were issued
14 by the SDS Main Board or the SDS Crisis Staff. What was the basis for
15 your assertion to that effect in the report?
16 A. On the front page of the document, it says it's coming from the
17 SDS Main Board. The last page is type-signed "SDS Crisis Staff."
18 Q. And what did your examination of the material show with regard to
19 how this report was distributed, and to whom it was distributed?
20 A. The diary of Karadzic chef de cabinet, Grkovic, indicates that on
21 the 20th of December there was a meeting of the Main Board in the deputy's
23 Q. Now we'd like to show you presentation tab number 12, which is
24 master tab number 374.
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I've been putting the B/C/S copy up on
1 the screen because Ms. Hanson reads B/C/S, but I don't know if the Court
2 would prefer to see the English. We can proceed either way.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have the English in front of us, and if
4 Ms. Hanson works on the B/C/S original, perhaps it's better to have the
5 B/C/S original on the screen.
6 MR. HANNIS: We'll continue in that fashion, then.
7 Q. I'm sorry, did I interrupt your explanation of this one?
8 A. I'm just going to say that that is the page that I referred --
9 that I found the reference from the Grkovic diary, that at 4.00 on the
10 20th of December there was a meeting of the Main Board in the deputy's
12 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down for the interpreters. Thank
14 JUDGE ORIE: I feel a bit guilty, saying both to the interpreters
15 and to you, Mr. Hannis, because I'm trying to speed up. But not
16 necessarily in the speed of speaking. Please proceed.
17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll try to slow down.
18 Q. Next I would like to show presentation tab number 13, which is
19 master tab number 36. This is an excerpt from the minutes of the Bratunac
20 SDS. Can you explain what you've got on the screen in front of you now?
21 A. This is further indication of the receipt and distribution of the
22 19 December instructions. At a meeting of the SDS Municipal Board on the
23 23rd of December, the president of the Municipal Board, Miroslav Deronjic,
24 told the Municipal Board about a meeting of what he calls the presidency
25 of the SDS in Sarajevo, and he distributes material from this presidency
2 I would like to point out that no where else in documents about
3 the SDS do we see reference to a body called the presidency of the SDS. I
4 take this to mean a meeting of the leadership of the SDS, because we don't
5 see a presidency as such anywhere else.
6 The minutes indicate that he read from this material of the SDS
7 leadership, and they then acted on it. He says that two variants are
8 foreseen, A and B. "For us, variant B, second degree of organisation
9 applies." If you'll recall, variant B, in the A and B document, meant
10 Serbian minority municipalities. Bratunac was a Serbian minority
12 Then the other steps taken, holding an assembly, forming a Crisis
13 Staff, and introducing duty watches, those are all parts -- elements of
14 the A and B document.
15 So to my mind, these minutes indicate that he received the A and B
16 document at a meeting of the SDS leadership in Sarajevo sometime before
17 the evening of the 23rd of December.
18 Q. Do you know if Mr. Deronjic was a member of the Main Board?
19 A. I do not believe -- not at this time. He became a member of the
20 Main Board, I think, in 1993.
21 Q. Now, you've described the difference between the variant A and
22 variant B municipalities, with A being Serb-majority and B being
23 Serb-minority municipalities?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was there another dichotomy in --
1 A. Yes, there was also the first and second degrees of organisation.
2 Basically, variant A served majority municipalities. First degree was
3 preparations, and second degree was activation. A similar dichotomy under
4 variant B, Serb minority.
5 Q. And did the instructions indicate with regard to forming Crisis
6 Staffs who should be the members of Crisis Staffs in the municipalities?
7 A. Yes, it's spelled out for both variant A and variant B. Is it
8 possible to look at that document?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. It was -- two tabs back was the preferred translation -- was the
11 preferred copy.
12 Q. We'll put that up for you in just a second.
13 A. All right.
14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, that's presentation tab 10 that we've
15 got back on the screen now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if, at -- I'd like you to pay some
17 additional attention to tab 12 as well, because we got a bit stuck there
18 through the speed-of-speech issue, and I'm a bit confused about it. So
19 if, after tab 10, you would also pay more attention to tab 12.
20 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, would it --
21 THE WITNESS: Would it be easier to go back to 12?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I've got a specific question. Ms. Hanson, you
23 started saying that -- it says something about a meeting with, you said
24 "indicates that on the 23rd of December, there was a meeting of the Main
25 Board in the deputy's club."
1 THE WITNESS: No, no, the 20th of December. I may have misspoke.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's exactly what my problem was.
3 THE WITNESS: The Grkovic diary shows that there was a meeting on
4 the 20th of December.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It shows the 23rd in the transcript. No, I don't
6 know who made the mistake. That at least clarifies the issue. And then I
7 also do understand that it's not highlighting in the English translation,
8 but it's just a graphical -- so it's the first item at 4.00 on the 20th
9 which is of importance.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's all.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Ms. Hanson, then, I think you wanted to have a look at a copy of
14 the variant A and B instructions?
15 A. Yes. You had asked me about who goes in -- the composition of the
16 Crisis Staff. For reference, I thought it would be easier, but I can tell
17 you in general terms, that the variant A and B document specifies that in
18 both municipalities -- both variant A and variant B municipalities, the
19 leadership of the municipal party is to go into the Crisis Staff. If I
20 could see, perhaps, the second -- the next page of the document. I don't
21 know if it's possible. The president of the municipal board, the
22 president of the municipality in the majority municipalities, the --
23 Q. May I interrupt you for a second.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. On the Sanction presentation, I think we now have a page up that
1 may assist.
2 A. The next page would be even better. I have a copy, or could you
3 provide me with a copy.
4 Q. I have a hard copy of number 93.
5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, if we may hand this to the witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Hannis.
7 MR. HANNIS: This would be the B/C/S version from tab 10.
8 A. It's on page 3. It specifies: "All members of the secretariat of
9 the party," which means the president, vice-president, and secretary of
10 the municipal board, those people who have a function in the municipal
11 government, or alternatively, the SDS candidates for those positions, that
12 is, the president of the municipal assembly or the president of the
13 executive board, the head of the police station or the commander of the
14 police, the commander or the head of the municipal board -- staff of the
15 Territorial Defence, the secretariat of the -- municipal secretariat for
16 national defence or other people who have municipal functions in a
17 municipality. Also, deputies to the Bosnian Serb assembly, and members of
18 the Main Board of the SDS are all supposed to go into the Crisis Staff,
19 which means it's the leadership at the municipal level, it's people in the
20 municipal government and people with ties to the republican level of the
22 Q. In connection with that, I know in your report, I think in
23 paragraph 16, you indicated that, in effect, these measures made the
24 Crisis Staffs shadow governments, armed with a concrete plan for action.
25 Can you give us some example of that?
1 A. Yes. A member of the Prijedor Crisis Staff explicitly referred to
2 the Crisis Staff as a shadow government --
3 Q. I can halt you there for a minute and we'll put up the next tab.
4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, this is presentation tab 14, master tab
5 number 38, and it's a transcript of a radio broadcast from Prijedor in
6 April of 1995, on the third anniversary of the takeover.
7 A. The highlighted section simply says --
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, in the English, that would be page 7,
9 about two-thirds of the way down the page. I don't know if it's
10 highlighted in your copy or not. Mr. Kovacevic is speaking.
11 THE WITNESS: It's right after the number 25.2.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I've found it. It's the middle of page 7.
13 Please proceed.
14 A. It says, "we had earlier formed the so-called shadow government."
15 And this whole broadcast is devoted to the takeover of Prijedor and the
16 actions of the Crisis Staff at the time. I just found that a significant
17 phrase, because the A and B document specifies that people who are in the
18 municipal government go in the Crisis Staff, and he calls it a shadow
19 government. We have also other references to the A and B document as a
20 plan for real functions taking over power.
21 MR. HANNIS:
22 Q. Do you recall who Mr. Kovacevic was in Prijedor?
23 A. I do not recall his exact position.
24 Q. Let me go next to tab 15 in the presentation binder, which is
25 master tab number 376.
1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, this is an intercepted telephone
2 conversation and we'd like to play a segment. And I believe in English,
3 the portion we're going to be listening to is found at page 7 of the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You remember the procedure, that it will be
6 translated so we are not just listening to it, but it will be translated
7 so that it also appears on the French transcript.
8 MR. HANNIS: I see the yellow bar moving through the transcript,
9 but I don't hear any sound at this point, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I have the same experience.
11 MR. HANNIS: Until we can deal with that technical difficulty, we
12 can proceed.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's ask someone. Is there a specific portion to be
14 played of this relatively lengthy intercept, Mr. Hannis?
15 MR. HANNIS: There is, Your Honour. It's a very short segment. I
16 could hand Ms. Hanson a copy of the B/C/S transcript and ask her to read
17 that and have it interpreted, if we can proceed in that fashion for the
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, if it properly reflects the original.
20 MR. HANNIS: And the ERN --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections by the Defence if Ms. Hanson would
22 read the B/C/S portion?
23 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, not by the Defence, no.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
25 MR. HANNIS: For the record, Your Honour, she'll be reading from
1 page number ERN 03244714, and in the English, that's at page 7, near the
2 bottom, where Mr. Karadzic begins with "second of all."
3 THE WITNESS: Starting with the speech of Radovan Karadzic.
4 [Interpretation] Second of all, we have to take into account that
6 [In English] I'm getting the translation.
7 JUDGE ORIE: It's our practice that if we read, we usually speak
8 -- all our ears are hurt. It's the same for everyone.
9 THE WITNESS: I find it difficult to read the B/C/S while hearing
10 the English. I wasn't expecting it, but I will concentrate now.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No one forces you to listen to the English. If you
12 switch to the B/C/S, you will hear your own voice, and then it will be
13 translated. We have the English text in front of us and we can read it
15 If you start reading, it is our experience that text that is read
16 is usually spoken more quickly than text we have to invent while speaking,
17 so will you please read it slowly.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay.
19 [Interpretation] With the election of a new one, we must take into
20 account the fact that we need a person who is not a person from some
21 institutes or university.
22 Miroslav: Yes, because this is not the time for arts and
24 Karadzic: Now, it is not a time for sciences. It's time to have
25 people take over realistic functions, and there is nothing -- when we're
1 talking about the paper, I don't know, this document of ours, degree 1,
2 degree 2.
3 MR. HANNIS:
4 Q. Did you recognise any of the speakers in that conversation when
5 you listened to it?
6 A. I recognised the voice of Radovan Karadzic.
7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, in the document, the other speaker was
8 identified as Miroslav, no further name.
9 Q. What led you to believe that they were talking about the variant A
10 and B instructions?
11 A. The reference to "level 1, level 2," and "a paper of ours," he
12 says, "level 1, level 2," with a list of real functions for the takeover
13 of power.
14 Q. And this conversation was dated on the 7th of January, 1992; is
15 that consistent with the timing of when this was happening?
16 A. Yes, it is consistent.
17 Q. Next I would like to go to presentation tab 16, this is another
18 intercepted conversation, master tab 377.
19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the document title refers to it as an
20 intercepted conversation between Tintor and Mr. Krajisnik. However, the
21 entire document is actually notes of more than one conversation, and the
22 conversation that Ms. Hanson has referred to in this document is actually
23 between two other speakers. It's the second conversation, beginning near
24 the bottom of the first page in your English copy, where the speakers are
25 identified as Rajko Kopravica and General Djurdjevac. This is a
1 conversation we do not have an audio for. The transcript is prepared from
2 the handwritten notes of operatives that were taking this conversation.
3 Q. Ms. Hanson, can you tell us about this conversation?
4 A. In this conversation, Rajko Kopravica, the president of the SDS
5 Vogosca, is calling General Djurdjevac, the commander of the 4th Corps
6 Sarajevo. He is concerned that some Muslim forces are coming towards his
7 area, and the General tells him: "Act according to the instructions for
8 the work in crisis situations. You know those instructions."
9 Q. And this conversation was referred to as occurring on the 3rd of
10 April, 1992?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. And tab number 17, I believe you indicated, was for purposes of
13 identifying who Djurdjevac was.
14 A. Right. It's simply a reference for the Court to see who
15 Djurdjevac was.
16 MR. HANNIS: So presentation tab number 17, Your Honour, which is
17 Hanson master tab 457, was put in to show who Vojislav Djurdjevac was. In
18 the interests of saving time, I would propose to move on to tab 18.
19 Q. Now, with regard to implementing these December 19th instructions,
20 did you find that, indeed, they were acted upon in various municipalities
21 in Bosnia at the time?
22 A. Yes. I saw many references to these documents -- to indicate
23 these documents were received and implemented in late December, and some
24 of them have explicit references to the instructions; others are simply
25 references consistent with the content of the instructions.
1 Q. Let me go through some of these with you quickly. Tab number 18,
2 which is master tab number 40, could you tell us where that's from?
3 A. It's the conclusions of the municipal board of the SDS Zvornik
4 from the 22nd of December. They introduce -- here are introducing duty
5 watches, which, as we know, is consistent with the instructions, and a
6 Crisis Staff is formed with a command -- commandant, a commander, as also
7 noted in the instructions. A coordinator for negotiations with the SDA,
8 that's also specified in the instructions. This is a -- "Crisis Staff
9 formed late December" is consistent with the A and B instructions.
10 Q. Tab number 19, master tab number 41.
11 A. These are minutes from the executive board of the municipal board
12 of SDS Kljuc, from the 23rd of December, 1991. The first item of the
13 agenda is -- reading -- "familiarising with the decisions of the Serbian
14 assembly and the material which has arrived." Under agenda item 1 in the
15 minutes, it says: "Veljko Kondic familiarised those with the instructions
16 in organising and actions of the Serbian people of BiH. All organs are
17 obliged to act in accordance with these instructions."
18 Further down, another member says he can't accept anything that
19 Karadzic says without looking at it. I intend to look at this in more
20 detail when we look at a Kljuc case study. But if you could just go to
21 the next page of that -- no, it's not -- I intend to look at the Kljuc
22 documents in more detail when we do a case study of Kljuc.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't oppose that. It is Mr. Hannis who is
24 examining that.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1 MR. HANNIS:
2 Q. The next tab would be tab 20, master tab 378.
3 A. This is a meeting of the Crisis Staff of the SDS Novo Sarajevo on
4 the 23rd of December, 1991. It says that they examined the material
5 received from the Main Board of the SDS. First degree, under item 1 --
6 well, they specify various items. Item 2, they form a secretariat. You
7 will recall that item 2 in the variant A level, first degree, refers to a
8 secretariat. Item 3 similarly refers to forming a Crisis Staff and
9 nominating a coordinator for relations with the HDZ and SDA. That is also
10 consistent with item 3 of the variant A and B. So it's -- while it
11 doesn't specify the name of the instructions, it's a reference consistent
12 with the A and B variant document.
13 Q. The item numbers here list -- line up number-wise with those items
14 in the instructions themselves?
15 A. Yes. For example, under item 9, they specify civil defence, MUP,
16 and Territorial Defence. Item 9 under variant A level 1 also refers to
17 those. So it's consistent throughout.
18 Q. And at the end of the first paragraph, is there a reference to
19 which degree or which stage this referred to?
20 A. Yes, it says first degree.
21 Q. And what -- which type of municipality was Novo Sarajevo at that
22 time? Was it Serb majority or minority, A or B?
23 A. I believe it was -- actually, I can't remember. I don't recall.
24 I have the census here, but I don't know if -- off the top of my head, I
25 would have said it was --
1 Q. That's all right, if you don't recall. Let me go on to the next
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask one question in relation to that.
4 In the document, we see the word "reserve" appear just a couple of lines
5 from the bottom, but it's in quotation marks. Could you explain what it
7 THE WITNESS: I think a reasonable interpretation would be a
8 reference to arms, because it says, equipment, "oprema", which is used for
9 general military equipment, and the "means" being in quotation marks, I
10 take it to mean not simply money, because it also talks about financial,
11 "sredstva", money means --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Reserves is to be understood in financial terms?
13 Because the translation says "reserves."
14 THE WITNESS: Well, I think "sredstva" I would more usually
15 translate as simply means. It doesn't necessarily mean financial.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have difficulty understanding the line,
17 because then it reads in the translation, "special powers to purchase
18 equipment and means." Would that mean that we would buy means or that we
19 would get money or things or --
20 THE WITNESS: Things which are means to an end. Perhaps, I don't
21 know if the interpreters can offer a better translation of "sredstva", but
22 it means concrete things.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
24 THE WITNESS: It can mean concrete things as well as financial
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's still a bit misty. But perhaps if you
2 could read the line slowly to see whether the interpreters can help us
3 out, because they have not.
4 THE WITNESS: Read it in B/C/S?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in B/C/S, please.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Special authority for the purchase
7 of equipment and means, Dragan Mucetic will be in charge of that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So whatever that means will be --
9 THE WITNESS: -- doesn't refer to money. Two sentences down, if I
10 could just read that sentence as well.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obtain financial means for the needs
13 of the Crisis Staff.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then still the translation to "reserves" in the
15 first time that sredstva is not entirely clear to me.
16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it appears in between as well, it
17 seems. I have no idea about the B/C/S, but it appears that the same word
18 appears not just two sentences down but in between. I don't know whether
19 that gives any clue.
20 THE WITNESS: That would maybe refer to communication equipment.
21 I'll read that sentence too. I don't know the translation, what you have
22 there, but I would translate it there as --
23 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, this is not the core of this
24 document, but we always prefer to understand the documents whenever we see
1 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
3 Q. We'll move on to tab 21, then, which is master tab 42. This is a
4 document from the 24th of December, 1991. Can you tell us what that is?
5 A. It's minutes from the executive board of the Serbian municipal
6 assembly of Bosanska Krupa, on the 24th of December, 1991. Under agenda
7 item 3, item A is another reference to the instructions on the formation
8 of Crisis Staff.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, is there any reason why there's no
10 English translation of this document?
11 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I didn't ...
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's all right.
14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I do have an English translation.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Tab 21. Then I'm the only unfortunate one who has to
16 do without. I'll overcome that. It's good for my B/C/S training anyhow.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, you passed the test. We know you're
19 following along now. We will furnish you a copy during the break.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. HANNIS:
22 Q. You mentioned item number 3, implementing the instructions of
23 establishing a Crisis Staff.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I don't know if we have in Sanction a copy of the next page where
1 there's a further elaboration of that agenda item.
2 A. It looks like we don't.
3 MR. HANNIS: But in the hard copy, Your Honours, you'll see at the
4 bottom of the page there's some discussion of that instruction.
5 Q. And with regard to the document, it makes reference to Miroslav
6 Vjestica. Do you know who he was?
7 A. He was a member of the -- a deputy to the Bosnian Serb assembly
8 from Krupa.
9 Q. I understand we'll hear more about him later on.
10 A. Yes. We'll look at some of his assembly speeches.
11 Q. Next, if we can go to tab 22, which is the master tab number 43, a
12 document dated the 24th of December, 1991.
13 A. These are notes from a meeting of the Crisis Staff of the SDS for
14 the city of Sarajevo. You'll note, after the list of those present,
15 there's a very clear reference to the A and B document. It says "special
16 assignments according to the instructions on the organisation and
17 activities of organs of the Serbian people in BiH in special
18 circumstances, according to variant B." And I can't actually -- it's not
19 clear -- it says "degree," but I can't see in the original whether it says
20 first or second.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. But it's a reference to variant B, a level, and it's a clear
23 reference to the instructions.
24 Q. Next, if we could move to tab 23, that's master tab number 379, a
25 document dated the 25th of December, 1991.
1 A. This is a meeting, an extraordinary session, of the municipal
2 board of the SDS Trnovo, on the 25th of December. And here, agenda item 1
3 is "instruction on the organisation of the Serbian people in crisis
4 situations." And among the steps taken is forming the Crisis Staff on the
5 basis of the instructions.
6 Q. The English translation I have refers to setting up -- to set up a
7 Crisis Staff pursuant to the directives. Could you read us the B/C/S
8 word? I know I've heard that translation two different ways.
9 A. It is "uputstvo".
10 THE INTERPRETER: It is instruction.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I would propose to submit a
12 revised translation.
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we notice that we have, throughout,
14 we've got -- we're getting, not surprisingly, we're getting a completely
15 different translation -- not completely different, I withdraw"completely."
16 We're getting, of course, a different translation on the transcript as
17 Ms. Hanson reads from B/C/S documents from what we're seeing on the
18 English documents. This is run through the entire morning. I don't know
19 why, in particular, this item gives rise to a need for a revised
20 translation. Directives, instructions, it -- we'd suggest it all pretty
21 much comes to the same fairly clear thing as a matter of language.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis --
23 MR. STEWART: So try to cut down the unnecessary bits of paper.
24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm fine to leave it that way. It's
25 only because the variant A and B document is entitled "instructions"
1 specifically that I propose to do that. But I don't think it's necessary.
2 MR. STEWART: But I would comment that the very title of the A and
3 B instructions came across differently when Ms. Hanson herself was
4 translating from the B/C/S version, from the conventional label that we've
5 had throughout. We don't quarrel with that, we just note it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed that as well, and of course sometimes, if
7 words have to be translated quickly, and if there are several options,
8 several choices, then it might not always be entirely consistent. The
9 Chamber understands that, the Chamber knows that, and --
10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- as it stands now, since the parties have no
12 problems with its directives or instructions, it's close to each other so
13 therefore there's no need to provide a new translation.
14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. I'll move to tab number 34, which is master tab 37, a document
16 dated the 27th of December, 1991.
17 A. These are minutes from the meeting of the municipal board of SDS
18 Prijedor, on the 27th of December. Under item 1, the president read the
19 instructions which the municipal board of the SDS Prijedor had received
20 from the assembly of the Bosnian people. Because there are two variants,
21 only variant 2 was read out, which relates to the municipality of
22 Prijedor. He read out both variant A and B.
23 Then under -- further down, they form a Crisis Staff, introduce
24 duty watches, and the members of the Crisis Staff are also consistent with
25 the A and B instructions.
1 Q. And the document refers to Simo Miskovic as the president of the
2 Prijedor municipal board. Do you know if he was a member of the Main
3 Board of the SDS?
4 A. I do not know.
5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think next we're going to move to some
6 intercepts, and because I want to check and see if we can take care of the
7 sound problem, this would be a good time to take a break, if that would be
8 okay with the Court.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Hannis, I think it's approximately time for
10 a break. Nevertheless, I would have one question -- let me just try to...
11 In understanding the reading out, during this meeting on the 27th
12 of December, 1991, it says, "since there were two versions, only version
13 2, which is relevant for Prijedor municipality, was read out," and then it
14 later says, "having read out all the items in sections A and B of version
16 Did I understand that the distinction between the variety A and
17 variety B was whether there was a majority -- a Serb majority or not? So
18 what exactly, then, is version 2?
19 THE WITNESS: Well, I think, perhaps, a reasonable explanation
20 would be that a person taken -- it's confused, because there's A, A1, A2,
21 and then B, B1, B2. If they put B for 2 and 1 and 2 for A and B, perhaps
22 he meant through variant B, and then numbers 1 and 2. That's --
23 JUDGE ORIE: It certainly makes sense if they've -- if they had
24 written it down differently, if it said only A and B was relevant for
25 Prijedor and therefore we would add 1 and 2 from the relevant -- but
1 that's not what it says.
2 THE WITNESS: That's not what it says.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And now what it says is totally illogical?
4 THE WITNESS: Variant 2, and items A and B, it's not logical.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 THE WITNESS: But the other items are consistent with the
7 instructions, the other things they do, Crisis Staff, duty watches, and so
9 MR. HANNIS:
10 Q. And Ms. Hanson, Prijedor was?
11 A. A Serb minority municipality.
12 Q. Which would have been?
13 A. A variant B. So it would have been a second section of those
14 instructions, but it's B first and then the numbers under it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least I understand my own confusion.
16 We'll adjourn until five minutes to 11.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, you may proceed.
20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I neglected this morning to
21 welcome you back and say, Happy New Year to the returning Judges, and
22 welcome to our new Judge.
23 Q. Ms. Hanson, I would like to now go to presentation tab 25, and I
24 think, may be after the next break or certainly by tomorrow, I think we'll
25 make an extra set of the presentation binders for you that will make the
1 process go faster.
2 A. That would be helpful.
3 Q. I understand that we have an extra one here that we could give
4 you. We'll give you binder number 1, and presentation tab 25, which is
5 master tab 380. This is an intercepted conversation.
6 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honours, I think we've solved the audio
7 problem, I hope. And for your information, this is a conversation between
8 Radovan Karadzic and a person named Bijelica from Sokolac. On the 27th of
9 December 1991, the segment we're going to play, Your Honours, in the
10 English, is at page 2. About two-thirds of the way down Mr. Karadzic is
11 speaking, and he talks about having many other commitments.
12 And if you're ready, Your Honours, we'll start playing that
13 segment. It's a very short segment.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
15 [Audiotape played]
16 JUDGE ORIE: You said you solved the audio problems. It seems to
17 be not the case.
18 MR. HANNIS: I heard some audio somewhere, Your Honour, but not in
19 the courtroom.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it the technician hears it quite well,
21 because it seems to come from the technical booth. Is there any way to
22 get that sound to our earphones as well?
23 And then the second question is, Mr. Hannis, you said we'd start
24 on page 2. Could you indicate? I have some difficulties to find it.
25 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. The tenth box up from the bottom.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. The tenth box up from the bottom, Radovan
3 Karadzic is speaking. It starts out: "I am not sure ..."
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.
5 MR. HANNIS: I think we'll try again, Your Honour.
6 [Audiotape played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] And I have many other commitments.
8 That is why I am not sure about it. We are doing this work. Everything
9 is normal. Excellent. I hear that the municipality is functioning well
10 now. Is this Pajic person good? We're working good. Special
11 assignments, we do it as well. Is the Pajic good? Good indeed. Don't,
12 Marko, treat him well, because it's not, it's a normal thing in a
14 MR. HANNIS:
15 Q. Ms. Hanson, can you tell us what that conversation is about?
16 A. Bijelica was the president of SDS municipal board for Sokolac and
17 Pajic was the president of the municipality assembly. I found this
18 passage significant because Bijelica is saying that the municipality is
19 working well, including the special assignments, we are doing the special
20 assignments as well. It's not an explicit reference. At the least, it is
21 certainly indicative of Karadzic being aware of what was going on in the
22 municipalities at this time. But I found the reference to special
23 assignments to be significant.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I don't intend to put tab 26 up on the
1 board. It's a list of personnel, and it was for purposes of identifying
2 Mr. Bijelica's position. In the English document, what's numbered page
3 10, item number 85, two boxes up from the bottom is where Mr. Bijelica is
4 referred to.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that.
6 MR. HANNIS: And tab 27 was also for purposes of identification as
7 to his role in the Serb Autonomous Region assembly for the region of
8 Romanija, and on page 2 of 4 at the bottom, he's listed as a speaker at
9 that session. That was the purpose for tab 27.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that information. This is
11 presentation only, so you're not presenting it because it's not footnote
13 MR. HANNIS: Correct.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So you're just telling us that you had in mind at
15 that moment to present this in order to clarify his position, which you
16 finally do not.
17 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's good.
19 MR. HANNIS: It was just to explain who that person was in
20 relation to the conversation.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You could have done that, yes. Then I have one
22 question, Mr. Hannis. We have some difficulties in following the audio
23 again in tab 25, and I could read more on paper than I heard translated.
24 But we did not have the scrolling text in front of us. So I do understand
25 that you specifically want to draw the attention to the special
1 assignments, and that was still translated, because later on, a few lines
2 were left out in the translation.
3 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. It seemed to me that -- I'm not
4 sure, but the next to the last box, which was in the hard copy of the
5 transcript was not spoken by the interpreter, and I think it was a matter
6 of trying to catch up with the audio.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Then please proceed.
8 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
9 Q. Next, I would like to go to presentation tab 28, which is master
10 tab 318. This is another intercepted conversation. This is dated
11 approximately the 1st of January, 1992. And in the English, Your Honour,
12 it begins seven boxes down where Mr. Karadzic is saying, "it's you,
13 professor, right?"
14 JUDGE ORIE: You're skipping the new year's wishes, which you've
15 already delivered.
16 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. We'll try to play that for you
18 [Audiotape played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
20 "It's you, professor, right?
21 Yes, it's me, it's me. You know, I didn't want to intorduce
22 myself. I was at this meeting of the municipal staff. I wanted to say
23 something in relation to that. As to the party tomorrow, I would come to
24 say a few things.
25 Radovan KARADZIC: And which municipal staff is that?
1 Micevic: Centre municipality.
2 Radovan KARADZIC: Uh-huh. That's their legal or ...
3 Micevic: Yes, yes, our crisis.
4 Radovan KARADZIC: Uh-huh. Good.
5 Micevic: So I've said, I've just arrived from that meeting. The
6 people are running around in circles and they need help, and I don't think
7 I could do that without you.
8 Radovan KARADZIC: Good. Tomorrow I'm going to this Belgrade
10 Micevic: All right.
11 Radovan KARADZIC: I'll be back the day after tomorrow so we'll do
12 it then.
13 Micevic: Right. Okay, I agree. Or should I look for Rajko?
14 Radovan KARADZIC: All right. That wouldn't be bad.
15 Micevic: If Rajko is in Sarajevo, if he can help.
16 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes. Have them give you at the seat, have them
17 find Rajko for you. If Rajko can. Is it urgent?
18 Micevic: It's not that urgent, but they received the documents to
19 act upon. However, there are things that they are incapable of doing.
20 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes. Yes.
21 Micevic: We should help them now so they know what to do with the
22 people and so.
23 Radovan KARADZIC: Uh-huh. All right.
24 Micevic: That's why I'll look for Rajko tomorrow.
25 Radovan KARADZIC: Mm-hm.
1 Micevic: To the seat and get them to put me in touch with Rajko
2 if he's in Sarajevo.
3 Radovan KARADZIC: All right. All right.
4 Micevic: Fine. By the way, I want you to have a good time in
6 MR. HANNIS:
7 Q. Ms. Hanson, can you tell us about that conversation and how --
8 JUDGE ORIE: I think the French translation had not finished yet
9 on the --
10 MR. HANNIS: I apologise.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we, to the extent possible, could we have the
12 French translation ...
13 Yes, then we can proceed, Mr. Hannis.
14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I've put the French channel
15 on now and I'll try to make sure that they've finished before I go on.
16 Q. Ms. Hanson, can you explain to the Judges what you believe that
17 conversation has to do with the instructions?
18 A. Well, I believe it has to do with the instructions because Micevic
19 is reporting to Karadzic that he was at a meeting of the Crisis Staff of
20 Sarajevo center municipality, and that the people there have received a
21 document. They want to implement it but they need some
22 instructions from the party center. The Rajko he refers to, I believe, is
23 Rajko Dukic, head of the SDS executive board, another leader in the SDS.
24 He's saying they've got the documents, but they need help. And it says
25 "our crisis," meaning "our Crisis Staff" had been meeting.
1 Q. Presentation tab 29, master tab 456, is a document you put in
2 regarding the identification of who Mr. Micevic was.
3 A. Yes, simply to show for the Court that Micevic had a position in
4 the Bosnian government, deputy director of education -- a university
5 education fund. He was also an early member of the SDS Main Board, as the
6 next tab indicates. After the intercepts, I simply -- for reference of
7 the Court, I added some documents to show people's identities.
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, with regard to tab 29, Mr. Micevic's
9 name appears under item 14 on the second page. And presentation tab 30,
10 master tab 455, his name is number 24 on that list.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, in the translation we have number 14
12 three times, and the number 15, whereas in the original it seems that we
13 go from 14 to 17 in a different way.
14 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm not following. Are you
15 referring to which tab?
16 JUDGE ORIE: You say Micevic is under number 14, but then I have,
17 again, a Mr. Korejica under number 14 and Mr. Subotic as well, three times
18 under number 14 in the translation.
19 MR. HANNIS: I see, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The numbering is wrong.
21 MR. HANNIS: The numbering is wrong in the English. He appears to
22 be under the first number 14.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's so clear that we change in the --
24 we'll make it 15, 16, 17 -- oh, yes. Yes, Judge Hanoteau draws my
25 attention to the fact that we have three --
1 MR. HANNIS: A lot of nines as well.
2 JUDGE HANOTEAU: And number 1 as well.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and number 1 as well, as he said, without his
4 microphone on.
5 Could you please have a look at it and see whether it's ...
6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think we can provide --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not spend time on it now.
8 MR. HANNIS: Okay.
9 Q. Next I want to go to tab number 31 in the presentation binder,
10 it's master tab 382. This is another intercepted conversation, Your
11 Honours, dated the 6th of January, 1992, between -- purportedly between
12 Radovan Karadzic and a Miroslav Stanic. The portion we want to play for
13 Your Honours in the hard copy, English, on page 2, near the middle of the
14 page, where Mr. Karadzic is saying: "Uh-huh." It's right after Mr.
15 Stanic makes reference to the journalist from Der Spiegel is where we will
16 begin. Another very short segment.
17 [Audiotape played]
18 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
19 Radovan KARADZIC: Uh-huh.
20 Stanic: We have formed a Serb municipality and you have that
22 Radovan KARADZIC: All right.
23 Stanic: If this thing should go differently, on the 15th, we will
24 have a public promotion that --
25 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes, and take complete control over your
2 Stanic: Yes, yes. Everything as it is in the instructions."
3 MR. HANNIS:
4 Q. Ms. Hanson, can you tell us about that conversation? Who are the
5 speakers, and how does it relate to the instructions?
6 A. Miroslav Stanic was president of the SDS board of Foca and
7 president of the Crisis Staff of Foca. I noted that here there's another
8 reference to "instructions," that the -- that Stanic has instructions
9 which will enable him to take "complete control of your affairs." Also
10 significant, Stanic says to Karadzic "we have formed a Serb municipality
11 as you know". So it's also indicative of general information reporting to
12 Karadzic. He expects that Karadzic knows what they have done in the
13 municipality, including forming a Serb municipality which, as you know, is
14 part of the 19 December instructions.
15 Q. Regarding the identification of the other speaker with Mr.
16 Karadzic, tab 32, master tab 452, can you tell us what that's in there
17 for, and who --
18 A. Just simply to show that Stanic was president of the SDS Board for
20 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, on the English, his name appears on page
21 4 of 4, the fourth name down in tab 32.
22 Q. And tab 33 was also for identification purposes?
23 A. Yes, to show that he was on the Crisis Staff of the Serb
24 municipality of Foca. It does not here list him as president, but he is
25 listed as number 1, first member.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, if I may just interrupt. I think the
2 audio is not going as it should. If I look at the transcript at this
3 moment, we see that not the same text appears as we have in the
4 translation. Sometimes portions fall away. From what I remember is that
5 the text would be provided to the interpreters, that we would take time
6 for the interpreters to read the text because they can't just reproduce on
7 the basis of their hearing. It would then take time so that we would have
8 both a correct English transcript and that we'd have time to have it
9 translated into French as well, and that there would always be a
10 possibility for either of the parties to say that what was read is not
11 exactly what was said in the original.
12 This does not go well at this moment. I think it has no great
13 consequences. I haven't heard any complaints, but I'd very much urge you
14 to do it as we agreed and to take care that the transcript properly
15 reflects both in English and in French the content of the intercept.
16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, for the moment, it's a rather temporary
17 offer that would possibly save time. Nobody need worry about the
18 Defence's ability to suggest that the text is not being faithfully reduced
19 in the English because right now we have no such facility in court to make
20 any such observation. So that, I hope, will be a very temporary position.
21 But no one need worry about that because we can't do anything about it
22 right anyhow anyway.
23 JUDGE ORIE: What we have is Mr. Krajisnik --
24 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, but Mr. Krajisnik does not know
25 whether the English --
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, but that's the first step.
2 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour, as far as Mr. Krajisnik is
3 concerned, it's important that he hears it in his own language.
4 JUDGE ORIE: He can check whether the words written in B/C/S are
5 the words spoken in B/C/S, and then you have the disadvantage at this
6 moment that you can't check the translation right away. I do agree with
7 that. It should then be done out of court to the extent --
8 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, it can't be done out of court, with
9 respect, Your Honour. We simply do not have the facilities or the time to
10 do that. We don't have the human resources to do that, Your Honour.
11 Many, many times I have indicated that -- but not as strongly as I am
12 doing now, Your Honour, that simply to brush stuff -- I don't mean that
13 Your Honour is not making a perfectly practical suggestion. But that I'm
14 simply informing the Trial Chamber that what is sometimes a perfectly
15 practical suggestion that these matters get dealt with out of court is
16 impossible. We are absolutely beyond the limit of anything we can cope
17 with out of court, let alone in court. It cannot be done.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do I understand your point, Mr. Stewart.
19 Since it was of some concern to the Chamber as well, I at least tried to
20 get information on the issue of whether any additional translation
21 facilities would be granted to the Defence if Ms. Cmeric would leave. I
22 was informed, but if it's not correct, please tell me, that at least
23 additional interpretation services were offered to the Defence.
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the whole question --
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, we are not going again through the total of the
1 facilities. I just wanted to verify --
2 MR. STEWART: I wasn't going to, with respect.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon.
4 MR. STEWART: I wasn't going to, Your Honour. I was just making a
5 different observation.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I sought first of all a verification of the
7 information that reached me, information that said that at least some
8 additional translation resources were given to the Defence.
9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I started off simply saying the whole
10 question, I just wanted to say a sentence. The whole question of
11 resources and money, and I'm not going into it, Your Honour, I'm just
12 saying it is a very big question, many, many different strands to it, and
13 an enormous amount of time has had to be spent on that as well, to the
14 detriment of actually running Mr. Krajisnik's defence in any direct sense.
15 Your Honour, there are -- it is certainly correct that some limited, and
16 everything is limited, some limited interpretation facilities and
17 resources are being made available right now, without us having to get
18 into a big debate about those resources. But they are, in any case,
19 extremely limited, Your Honour, in relation to the task which we would
20 face in achieving anything remotely comparable to the facilities which are
21 offered to us by having a full-time case manager. That's not the fault of
22 the people offering those particular additional resources, which we
23 certainly appreciate as far as they go. But it is a fact.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It is $1.000 a month?
25 MR. STEWART: It is precisely $1.000 a month, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart. Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
2 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I have a question for the
3 witness. Maybe I wasn't listening carefully, but I did not understand
4 what is the origin of the document under number -- under tab 32? What is
5 the list of the main members of the SDS? We can see Momcilo Krajisnik,
6 and then there are three pages with names. And I did not understand,
7 where does that document come from? Would you please indicate it to us.
8 Do you see which document I'm talking about? It's the last document we've
9 looked at.
10 THE WITNESS: The list of SDS people? It is from -- it's from the
11 Sarajevo collection, which was taken, from my understanding, from the SDS
12 headquarters in Sarajevo, and it's called "A List of Members of the Main
13 Board of the SDS." I would have to consult the evidence record form to
14 give you more details about where it was found, but it is from the
15 Sarajevo collection.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. My case manager has advised
18 me that we provided English transcripts of the remaining intercepts we
19 anticipate playing today, so hopefully that will assist in the process
20 that we've tried to use in the past.
21 Q. In that regard, I would like to go to tab number 34, which is an
22 intercept. This is master tab number 383, a conversation on the 21st of
23 December, 1991, between Radovan Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik?
24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the portion that we intend to play, in
25 the English, is -- begins at the top of page 3, with "M" for Momcilo
1 Krajisnik being the first speaker, saying "But what do you ..." It's also
2 on the top of page 3 in the B/C/S, I think.
3 [Audiotape played]
4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
5 "M: But what do you ... Here, you know what, they told me that
6 the people from Krajina are dissatisfied with that Cizmovic. I don't
7 know, that...
8 R: All right. That's until the New Year, the Serbian New Year,
9 then we'll see.
10 M: But I don't understand, this ... how did the idea come up that
11 we should coordinate this?
12 R: You know what, who will implement what we issued last night?
13 M: This council of ministers.
14 R: But they can't run ... from municipality to municipality.
15 M: Huh?
16 R: They cannot run from municipality to municipality and say do
17 this, do that or that."
18 THE INTERPRETER: We note that we do not have the original
19 transcripts in the B/C/S and therefore cannot verify that the transcript
20 actually reflects the audio.
21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, my misunderstanding. I guess we
22 furnished the English --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think that what we did is -- what we intended
24 to do is that one of the team would listen and see whether what is said
25 reflects what's given in the translation, and that the other interpreter
1 would read it, and since reading out takes more time than following with
2 the eyes, that the team together, the one could confirm that the text, as
3 it appears on paper and more slowly read out by the colleague, would be
4 the text originally spoken in B/C/S. That's what my understanding was of
5 our procedure.
6 Is that sufficient for the interpreters? I'm now listening to the
7 English channel, so if there's any response.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, thank you, it is.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we are reminded now on the procedure we
10 agreed upon at an earlier stage.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we will bring down the B/C/S for the
13 booth as well. Your recitation refreshes my recollection about what our
14 practice was as well.
15 Q. Ms. Hanson, can you tell us what your understanding of that
16 conversation is?
17 A. Mr. Krajisnik and Karadzic are discussing how to implement
18 something that they issued last night. I note that this conversation took
19 place on the 21st of December, 1991. You'll recall that we know there was
20 a meeting of the Main Board in the deputy's club on the 20th, and that the
21 19 December instructions were distributed at about this time.
22 In order to implement the thing they issued on the 20th of
23 December, Karadzic says they need a coordinator to run from municipality
24 to municipality, say, Do this, do this, do this. The coordinator they've
25 appointed is Cizmovic, so we'll look at more about Cizmovic. And I think
1 when we see all the series of documents, it will make -- the significance
2 will emerge.
3 Q. All right. With that, then, let's move to tab number 35, which is
4 master tab number 384, and it's a document dated the 21st of December,
5 1991. Can you tell the Judges what that refers to?
6 A. It's a decision of the Serbian Assembly appointing Jovan Cizmovic
7 as coordinator of the work between the executive bodies and governments of
8 the Serb Autonomous Regions and ARK. It is type-signed by Mr. Krajisnik,
9 and dated the 21st of December.
10 Q. Can you remind us again, what is the difference between the Serb
11 Autonomous Regions and the Municipal Crisis Staffs?
12 A. The Serb Autonomous Regions had already been established and
13 verified by the Bosnian Serb Assembly at this time. The municipalities
14 fell under various autonomous regions. ARK, the Autonomous Region of
15 Krajina, was one. There were also other autonomous regions. The regions
16 were an intervening level between the municipalities and the republican
18 MR. HANNIS: Next, Your Honours, I'd like to move to tab number
19 36, which is master tab number 385. This is yet one more intercepted
20 conversation, dated the 16th of January, 1992. I think it says the 15th
21 on the tab and it says 16th on the document itself. And the portion that
22 we want to play in the English begins on page 7, about halfway down, with
23 Mr. Cizmovic speaking, saying, "Let me tell you this ..."
24 We're ready, yes.
25 [Audiotape played]
1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
2 "Jovan CIZMOVIC: Let me tell you this: As far as I'm concerned,
3 I'll help you with anything that's necessary. You know that.
4 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, sure thing.
5 Jovan CIZMOVIC: I have talked to Bijeljina, how they have
6 prepared for full cooperation. It's the same case with northern Bosnia.
7 I've prepared a small, sort of, questionaire for all of them.
8 Radovan KARADZIC: Uh-huh.
9 Jovan CIZMOVIC: What have they managed to do? How far have they
11 Radovan KARADZIC: Mhm.
12 Jovan CIZMOVIC: To what extent are they prepared to implement the
13 first level of the instructions? What are the problems? What do they
14 need help with? I'm even prepared to form a sort of team with your help.
15 A team that would possibly give them professional help with anything they
16 find problematic.
17 Radovan KARADZIC: Uh-huh.
18 Jovan CIZMOVIC: With turning subjects of special importance into
19 socially-owned companies and so on.
20 Radovan KARADZIC: Yes, yes. Excellent.
21 Jovan CIZMOVIC: Therefore, I'll try to do it ... to make it
23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I understand from the court reporter
24 that at that speed, it's very difficult to keep up with the transcript. I
25 don't know that we're yet following the process we talked about. I
1 understood what you recited, and what I understood before, we played it
2 through, one of the two interpreters listened to the B/C/S, then when it
3 was through, the other one read from the English, the first one who had
4 listened to the B/C/S advised him or her of whether or not what was on the
5 English was what they had heard.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No. From what I understood is that one of the
7 interpreters would listen to the B/C/S original and would look at the same
8 time on the English written translation to see whether the translation
9 corresponded with the originally spoken words, and that at the same time,
10 the other interpreter would start reading but in a -- at a pace which
11 could be followed by the transcribers, the English translation, but would
12 be a bit behind when finishing the English text compared to the original
13 B/C/S spoken words.
14 MR. HANNIS: And as I recall, we had the interpreter who was
15 reading from the English transcript was also announcing changes of
16 speakers by identifying the names.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I don't remember that detail, as a matter of fact,
18 but at least if there would be any inconsistency between the English
19 translation and the original spoken B/C/S words, which is not a full check
20 of the translation but at least to see whether the translation covers the
21 same text as originally spoken in B/C/S, that she would identify that --
22 that he or she would identify that.
23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, Mr. Hannis's observation was 100 per
24 cent correct. That's exactly how we remember it, that the interpreter was
25 to identify changes of speakers, because otherwise it had become from time
1 to time extremely confusing.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So that means that if the translation was read out,
3 it would include the names of those speaking.
4 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, that was -- I do distinctly
5 remember that it was what we discussed and implemented at one point, and
6 it was very helpful.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore, I take it that the interpreters
8 have followed this discussion, so reading out would include the names of
9 those speaking. Please proceed.
10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Ms. Hanson, do you have a comment on that conversation?
12 A. Well, the conversation shows that Cizmovic is reporting to
13 Karadzic. He has mentioned that he's talked to Bijeljina in northern
14 Bosnia. Northern Bosnia was one of the Serb Autonomous Regions. And that
15 he is helping them implement the first level of instructions. The word he
16 uses for instructions is "uputstvo", although I would note that he doesn't
17 say "level", he says "phase" in the original. So "uputstvo" is the word
18 but not "stepan".
19 However, if you connect that to the previous intercept, that
20 Cizmovic was appointed to implement what was issued on the 20th of
21 December, he is now reporting to Karadzic on the implementation in the
22 municipalities and in the SAOs on the instructions.
23 Q. Thank you. I would now like to go to the next binder, if we could
24 hand you binder number 2.
25 MR. HANNIS: We'll go to presentation tab 37, Your Honours, in the
1 second binder. This is master tab 386. This is the hard copy of the
2 transcript of the sixth session of the Assembly of the Serbian People on
3 the 26th of January, 1992.
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I just come back to that last observation made by
5 the witness.
6 Ms. Hanson, you said -- you referred to the previous intercept,
7 and you said, "he was appointed." I do understand that Mr. Karadzic and
8 Mr. Krajisnik are discussing the position of Mr. Cizmovic, and that the
9 people for Krajina are dissatisfied with him. But who appointed him,
11 THE WITNESS: Well, the appointment shows it was the Assembly, the
12 Serbian Assembly --
13 JUDGE ORIE: It was the assembly that appointed Mr. Cizmovic --
14 THE WITNESS: Coordinator.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Coordinator. For what, exactly?
16 THE WITNESS: It said, the work of the governments and executive
17 boards of the SAOs and the ARK, the Serb Autonomous Regions.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And there's no specific reference to Crisis
19 Staffs or --
20 THE WITNESS: No.
21 JUDGE ORIE: But you conclude from the discussion under tab 34,
22 and this discussion, that his task included or was mainly about the
23 implementation of the instructions?
24 THE WITNESS: It was part of his tasking, yes. As we'll see in
25 the next reference, it's another reference of Cizmovic to the 19 December
1 instructions. So it's a series of documents; one by one, hard to explain,
2 but together I think they show ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
5 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. In connection with that tab 37, as
6 I mentioned, we will want to highlight a portion that, in the English,
7 Your Honour, is on page number 14. If you can see in the lower right-hand
8 corner, hopefully your copies of those pages have a page number, it's page
9 number 4, and Mr. Cizmovic is speaking. The second paragraph up from the
10 bottom that begins "To solve this problem ..."
11 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, if you would please use your
14 MR. HANNIS: And if it's regarding the B/C/S, Your Honour --
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am really unable to follow the
16 course of all this. Would you please kindly tell me the number of the
17 page in Serbian.
18 MR. HANNIS: Certainly, Your Honour, I can do that. The ERN
19 number at the top right-hand corner is SA025260, and we've put the B/C/S
20 up on the screen in the Sanction presentation. I don't know if Mr.
21 Krajisnik can see that where he sits or not. And on that page, it is the
22 second paragraph from the bottom.
23 Q. If everyone has found that, I'll ask Ms. Hanson to read it out for
25 A. The B/C/S or the English?
1 Q. You can read the English.
2 A. Okay.
3 "To solve this problem, I propose that we begin with an urgent
4 operationalisation and a declaration on the establishment and promulgation
5 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Tasks set out in the
6 instructions of 19 December 1991 should be carried out."
7 Q. And this was -- these were remarks by Mr. Cizmovic in an assembly
8 session chaired by Mr. Krajisnik?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. Is there any further discussion in that session about the
12 A. Not that I'm aware of.
13 Q. So, can you now -- is that sort of the last reference where Mr.
14 Cizmovic makes reference --
15 A. It's a series of documents on Cizmovic. Just to recap, we know
16 that the 19 December instructions were distributed around about the 20th
17 of December, sometime by the 23rd of December. We know that Cizmovic was
18 appointed in order to implement something issued on the 20th of December.
19 The implementation involved running from municipality to municipality,
20 telling them, Do this, do this. That's from the intercept. He reported
21 to Karadzic on the implementation of instructions in at least one
22 municipality and one Serb region, and at the assembly he urged the
23 implementation of the 19 December instructions.
24 Q. Now, let's move on from Mr. Cizmovic, and I want to ask you about
25 whether or not your -- your review of the documents showed that the
1 instructions were being implemented in some of the municipalities.
2 A. Yes. In addition to the formation of Crisis Staffs that we
3 already showed, I saw many other references to the 19 December
4 instructions that indicated they were received and implemented, and
5 moreover, they were received as a legal basis for further action. I see
6 many references to these instructions in the preamble to decisions of the
7 Crisis Staff or of Serbian municipalities, referring to the instructions
8 as a legal basis for their actions, which I think is indicative of the
9 weight which they accorded this document.
10 Q. In connection with that, let's go through a few of those. Tab
11 number 38, master tab number 50, a document dated 5 April 1992. And up on
12 the screen, can you tell us what that is?
13 A. This is an order of the commander of the Bosanska Krupa Crisis
14 Staff. He is ordering the full mobilisation of the police stations. And
15 the preamble says it's pursuant to the instructions for the organisation
16 and activities of the Serb people of BiH in extraordinary circumstances.
17 You will recall that activating the reserve police and taking over the
18 police station was one of the steps in the 19 December instructions.
19 Q. Tab number 39, master tab number 52, dated the 15th of February,
21 A. This is the decision on the establishment of the Serbian
22 municipality of Donji Vakuf, and this decision, it says, it pursuant to
23 Article 4 of the instructions for the organisation and activities of the
24 organs of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in extraordinary
25 circumstances of 19 December 1991. So a clear reference to the
1 instructions, and cited along with the constitution and other decisions as
2 a legal basis for their action, which is declaring the Serb municipality.
3 Q. Next is tab number 40, master tab number 57.
4 A. This is the decision on the establishment of the Serbian
5 municipality of Tuzla, dated the 3rd of March, 1992. The wording is just
6 the same as the previous document, pursuant to Article 4 of the 19
7 December instructions.
8 Q. Tab number 41, master tab number 58, from the 27th of December,
10 A. Sorry. The decision on the formation of the Serb municipality of
11 Zvornik. Same wording, same reference, pursuant to Article 4 of the 19
12 December instructions.
13 Q. And also in that regard, tab number 42, which is master tab number
14 53, dated the 3rd of January, 1992, from Ilidza municipality.
15 A. Yes. The proclamation of the Serb assembly of Ilidza
16 municipality. Similarly, in the preamble it says, according to the
17 instructions given by the BiH Serbian Democratic Party, Main Board, number
18 079, from 19 December 1991.
19 Q. Do you know what the number 079 refers to?
20 A. We haven't seen a 079 of the 19 December instructions, but that
21 numbering is consistent with the style of numbering of the 19 -- those
22 versions of the 19 December instructions we do have. So --
23 Q. And does that document, on the second page, indicate to whom
24 copies of this decision were sent?
25 A. Yes, it does. Yes. It says it was sent to the personal attention
1 of the president of the Serbian Assembly of BiH, also to the president of
2 the SDS and the SDS Main Board.
3 Q. Thanks you. I'd like to go to tab number 43, which is master tab
4 number 468. This is from the Bosnian Serb Assembly session in November of
6 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honours, we want to direct your attention
7 to a particular excerpt --
8 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you one question. You say it was sent
9 to the personal attention of the president of the Serbian Assembly of BiH.
10 That appears on page 2.
11 THE WITNESS: Mm-hm.
12 JUDGE ORIE: In English, it appears --
13 THE WITNESS: It says just "attention," but in -- the B/C/S says
14 "naruke," to the hand of. Perhaps -- I took that to mean personal
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first try to find it exactly.
17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. It's on page 2, at the bottom of the
18 page 2 where it says "submitted to."
19 MR. HANNIS:
20 Q. Ms. Hanson, could you look at the B/C/S copy.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. SA024140, and read item number 1 under the person sent to.
23 A. It says: [Interpretation] It is submitted to the Serbian Assembly
24 of BiH for the attention of the president.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It was my mistake.
1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Personal attention was maybe my
2 excessive translation. "Naruke" sounded like into the hand of but
3 "attention" is apparently the most efficient. I wasn't trying to read
4 more into it than was there in the B/C/S.
5 MR. HANNIS:
6 Q. Your Honour, I would like to move to tab 43, master tab 468, the
7 November 1994 Assembly session.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat the number of the
9 document. We haven't got it. Please slow down.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If you put off your microphone, that at least gives
11 some relief to the interpreters, yes.
12 MR. HANNIS:
13 Q. Tab number 43, master tab number 468. This is the minutes of the
14 Republika Srpska Assembly session from November of 1994.
15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the full session is in the master tab,
16 in the exhibit. We just have an excerpt here that we want to show you.
17 For Mr. Krajisnik, it's on the ERN page number 02153546, beginning seven
18 lines up from the bottom. And the English, Your Honours, it's on page --
19 at the bottom, it should say page 347 of 411, beginning three lines up
20 with the word "Please ..."
21 Q. Ms. Hanson, could you read us that excerpt? And tell us who's
23 A. This is Radovan Karadzic. There's been some discussion at this
24 point in the assembly about forming more presidencies. Again, this is
25 later, it's not the continuation of the War Presidencies of '92.
1 "Please, remember how we used to work before the war. Everything
2 was as clear as day in the municipalities where we were in the majority
3 and in those where we were minority. Do you remember the instruction A
4 and instruction B? We had Crisis Staffs, and it was clear that they were
5 the authority. They could make mistakes, but they still were the
6 authority. The people were not left without authority because there was a
7 Crisis Staff."
8 Q. Thank you. Let me move next to tab number 44, which has master
9 tab number 49. This is, again, from an assembly session. This is the
10 April 16th, 1995 session. And the excerpt that we want to bring to your
11 attention now is, in the B/C/S, at page number 00846058, beginning ten
12 lines from the top of the page, and in the English, it's the page number
13 at the bottom listed as 323 of 389, and it begins approximately two-thirds
14 of the way down with the sentence that begins "At the moment the war began
16 Can you tell us who's speaking there?
17 A. This is, again, Radovan Karadzic talking about the beginning of
18 the war.
19 Q. And there are, I believe, two segments that you've highlighted.
20 When you've reached the end of the first one, can you tell us where you're
21 skipping to to begin the second?
22 A. The second highlighting is actually -- I want to refer to that
23 passage at another point.
24 Q. Okay, fine.
25 A. I didn't get into the technology of different copies and
1 highlighting, so I'm just doing the first highlighting part right now.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. "At the moment the war began, in the municipalities where they
4 were in the majority, we had municipal power, held it firmly, controlled
5 everything. In the municipalities where we were in the minority, we set
6 up secret government, municipal boards, municipal assemblies, presidents
7 of executive boards. You will remember the A and B variants. In the B
8 variant, where we were in the minority, 20 per cent/15 per cent, we had
9 set up a government and a brigade, a unit, no matter what size, but there
10 was a detachment with a commander."
11 Q. We'll move next to -- pardon me. Let me move next to tab 45.
12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we're going on to a different topic now.
13 I want to talk about the portion of Ms. Hanson's report that refers to
14 contacts between Crisis Staffs and the leadership prior to the actual
15 takeovers in the assemblies.
16 Q. Ms. Hanson, tab number 45 is master tab number 69, a document
17 dated the 1st of April, 1992.
18 A. Yes. This is --
19 Q. Can you tell us about that one?
20 A. This is a report from the Crisis Staff of Bijeljina, addressed to
21 the SDS Main Board in Sarajevo, reporting on the situation in Bijeljina on
22 the 1st of April. I found it significant that the Crisis Staff in this
23 case is reporting to the SDS Main Board. It's indicative of the fact that
24 the Crisis Staff saw themselves as much to be SDS organs as, by this time
25 in April, government organs. There are -- in this time period, from the
1 issuance of the 19 December instructions until April, the process at both
2 the republican level and reflected also at the municipal level was the
3 transformation of the SDS organs into a Bosnian state organs. That's the
4 discussion we saw in the assembly of how we do we form our state and our
5 state organs. And this is the process. It's ongoing. And I wanted to
6 indicate that during this time period, the contacts between the municipal
7 level and the republican level continued. So in this case, this is a
8 report to the Main Board; some via the assembly.
9 Q. Related to that there's another document at tab number 46, which
10 is master tab number 70, dated 28 February 1992.
11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I'm sorry to interrupt you. I'd
12 like to go back to tab 45.
13 Ms. Hanson, what do you mean in paragraph 2? Can you have an
14 explanation for us regarding paragraph 2?
15 THE WITNESS: The movement of citizens?
16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: Between 2000 and 0600.
17 THE WITNESS: I assume that to be a curfew, to mean a curfew.
18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: Thank you very much.
19 MR. HANNIS:
20 Q. Ms. Hanson, are you aware of approximately when there were combat
21 activities in Bijeljina?
22 A. Yes. We have another report that says that the 31st of March to
23 the 1st of April was the takeover of Bijeljina.
24 Q. Thank you. Again, let me particular you to tab 46, master tab
25 number 70, a document dated 28 February 1992.
1 A. This is the session of the municipal board of the SDS Novo
2 Sarajevo. This municipal board had some internal conflict on some
3 discussion of the work of the president. And at the end of this document,
4 on page 2 of the translation in the original, it says that -- the last
5 line, in fact, says: "The discussion of whether they can --" it is their
6 job to discuss the work of the Crisis Staff. And a member says: "The
7 Bosnian Serb assembly formed the Crisis Staff, and it," meaning the
8 assembly, "should discuss the work of the Crisis Staff." So it's -- I
9 found it indicative at the municipal level, they're saying the Crisis
10 Staff should be reporting to the assembly; the assembly should be checking
11 -- discussing the work of the Crisis Staff.
12 Q. Now, apart from some of the Crisis Staff documents, did you see
13 other reflections, for example, in assembly sessions, that there was
14 communication between the center and the Crisis Staffs prior to the actual
15 beginnings of takeovers?
16 A. Yes. You will recall that, according to the 19 December
17 instructions, assembly deputies were members of their respective municipal
18 Crisis Staffs. And we see from the assembly sessions, there was much
19 discussion of how to realise the creation of the Serbian state on the
20 ground, at the municipal level, and we see from the assembly discussions
21 the importance of the assembly deputies in that process. The assembly
22 deputies were the link from the republican level to the municipal, so
23 that's -- the next series of documents referred to those communications in
24 the assembly and as referred to in the assembly between the republican and
25 municipal level.
1 Q. Let me take you, then, to tab 47 in the presentation binder, which
2 is master tab 387, from the 25 February 1992 eighth assembly session. The
3 B/C/S excerpt, for Mr. Krajisnik, is at page SA025489, and it's the
4 paragraph -- the three-line paragraph in the middle of the page.
5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, in the English, it's the page numbered
6 at the bottom 44. Again, the paragraph appears to be in the middle of the
7 page and begins "I have good contact ..."
8 Q. Who's speaking there?
9 A. Karadzic is, again, speaking. The discussion here, in general, is
10 the Autonomous Region of the Krajina. In addition to that highlighted
11 passage, I just summarised what else he says. At the top of that page, in
12 the English translation, he says that: "Every municipality is following
13 our political line." The only thing he cannot forgive the -- a small
14 number of people in Banja Luka, the problems he's having with the ARK
15 leadership, is they say what they're doing is their creation, "it's all
16 our line," he says. "We are the ones who conceived it all."
17 Then the highlighted section: "I have good contact with all
18 municipalities, and there is not a single municipality in Krajina which
19 does not support what the SDS has accomplished so far."
20 Then skipping one paragraph, at the beginning of the last
21 paragraph, in the English translation, it says: "I have been to Banja
22 Luka 27 times." I think it's important -- this speech is important, I
23 think, for showing how much Karadzic is in contact with the
24 municipalities, feels that all the municipalities are following the SDS
25 policies, and support what the SDS is doing.
1 Q. Thank you. I'd like to move to tab number 48 in the presentation
2 binder, master tab number 388, from the 18th March 1992 assembly session.
3 In the B/C/S, the excerpt we want to talk about is at the top of page
5 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honours, in the English version, I believe
6 we're starting at the bottom of page numbered 38 of 49, the second
7 paragraph up from the bottom of the page, which begins "So our job here
9 A. This is Miroslav Jezestica, a member of the Crisis Staff of
10 Bosanska Krupa and deputy in the assembly, talking about what has been
11 done to establish Serbian power in Krupa.
12 "So our job here is to decide whether we have the organisational
13 potential to establish our police, our territorial defence, to have our
14 commander, establish the money transfer system, and take possession of our
15 territories, as well as when to do these things. Bosanska Krupa is
16 textbook example. It's been six months now since the current MUP
17 inspections or other services have not been to our Serbian territories
18 around Mount Grmac in this area of Serbian municipalities. They cannot.
19 We do not let them. They do not dare to. We have de facto occupied our
20 own territories. But here we must reach an agreement that all Serbs in
21 all municipalities, both the newly formed and the existing ones, take over
22 the power, because we have not taken over. Mr. President, I think you
23 have to give us an order, that after the next session of the assembly, you
24 should order this, that we arrange it for the areas where it has not been
25 done and implement this; that the Serbs should occupy their territories so
1 that no other forces could enter them."
2 Q. And the reference to "Mr. President ..."
3 A. I assume to be president of the assembly, because he is saying --
4 he's talking at the assembly. The convention in the assembly, generally,
5 as I understood it, is that the speakers would address the speaker of the
6 assembly as President, Mr. President of the Assembly.
7 Q. And do the minutes of that assembly session reflect who was the
8 president presiding on that occasion?
9 A. Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, tab number 49, master tab number 389, there's
11 another excerpt from the assembly session of 24 March 1992.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Let me see if I can find the appropriate page reference. This is
14 Mr. Jezestica speaking in the B/C/S at page number SA025816.
15 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honours, the English --
16 A. 5815.
17 MR. HANNIS:
18 Q. I'm sorry. I have the wrong -- yes, 5815. And in the English,
19 it's on page 20, beginning -- the English begins in the fourth paragraph
20 down from the top. Who's speaking there?
21 A. It's Miroslav Jezestica, again -- once again, informing the
22 assembly of what has been accomplished at the municipal level and seeking
23 further directions from the assembly for actions at the municipal level.
24 "We, who have no authority, we have our chief, our commander, our
25 police. We have the territory we occupied and no one is trying to cross
1 over into it."
2 So he's telling the assembly how they have established power in
3 his municipality. And then he speaks again, the next speech by Vjestica.
4 It's in the same page of the translation, but the next page in the B/C/S.
5 He says:
6 "Appoint the ministers and agree on the assumption of power in our
7 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We can then go home with our
8 piece of homework, to assume power in our Serbian republic of BH."
9 Q. Any other comment on that before we go to the next tab?
10 A. Just, once again, the inter-play between the municipal and the --
11 assembly level. Give us our instructions and we'll carry them out at the
12 municipal level.
13 Q. Thank you. Presentation tab 50, master tab 389, another assembly
14 session excerpt from the 24th of March, 1992. And in the B/C/S, I think
15 the page number is SA025810.
16 A. Mm-hm.
17 Q. Two paragraphs up from the bottom.
18 MR. HANNIS: In the English, Your Honours, we are on page 17,
19 about five paragraphs up from the bottom, which begins "The deputies are
20 members ..."
21 A. It's Karadzic speaking, talking once again about what do we do now
22 as the -- at this moment, he says:
23 "The deputies are members of the supreme organ of authority, the
24 assembly. Now they must literally stay with the presidents of
25 municipalities. A municipality president is basically the one who should
1 be obeyed. This is the way it must be."
2 And in the next paragraph, he says at the end of the paragraph:
3 "The president of the municipality is the one who carries out our
5 So I think it shows, once again, the relationship between the
6 assembly and the municipal level. The deputy goes from the assembly to
7 the municipality, works with the municipal president who is the one who,
8 at the municipal level, has the power to carry out the plans.
9 Q. Presentation tab 51, master tab number 389, also from the 24th of
10 March, 1992, assembly session. Again, Mr. Karadzic speaking.
11 MR. HANNIS: The B/C/S reference is at page number SA025819, about
12 four lines down in the second paragraph. In the English, Your Honours,
13 page number 22, the big paragraph in the middle of the page, about four
14 lines down, beginning with the phrase "And this will be very soon ..."
15 Q. Ms. Hanson.
16 A. It's, once again, Karadzic telling the deputies that soon they
17 will be taking power.
18 "This will be very soon. We can form whatever we want. There are
19 reasons why this could happen in two or three days. Such are the
20 forecasts, but I cannot tell you the reasons now. At that moment, all the
21 Serbian municipalities, both the old ones and the newly established ones
22 would literally assume control of the entire territory of the municipality
23 concerned. The Zvornik municipality takes control over everything that
24 constitutes the Serbian municipality of Zvornik. Then, at a given moment,
25 in the next three or four days, there will be a single method used, and
1 you will be able to apply it in the municipalities you represent,
2 including both things that must be done as well as how to do them; how to
3 separate the police force, take the resources that belong to the Serbian
4 people, and take command. The police must be under the control of the
5 civilian authority. They must obey it. There is no discussion about it.
6 That's the way it must be. I think we shall hear it today in the form of
7 instructions at the deputy's club."
8 So Karadzic is, once again, showing that instructions will come
9 from the republic level to the municipalities, and the municipal -- the
10 assembly deputies will get these instructions, go to the municipalities,
11 and help the formation -- help take power.
12 Q. Near the end of the paragraph, the remark about separating the
13 police force and taking resources that belong to the Serbian people, does
14 that reflect anything in the variant A document?
15 A. Yes, these were both itemised in the variant A as some of the
16 steps. Taking over resources, forming a Serbian police, are all part of
17 the instructions.
18 Q. Thank you. Next I'd like to move to presentation tab 52 --
19 JUDGE ORIE: May I?
20 MR. HANNIS: Pardon me, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one additional question. The words spoken,
22 "there will be a single method used and you'll be able to apply it in the
23 municipalities," how do you understand this part?
24 THE WITNESS: That there would be one set of instructions. All
25 the municipalities will follow certain steps to take over power. That's
1 how I understood it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
4 Q. In regard to that last question, can you relate that to anything
5 about the variant A and B instructions?
6 A. Well, the --
7 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, that's the answer to the
8 question, really, isn't it? If the question is put in that form, it might
9 not as well be answered, because Mr. Hannis has given the question and the
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.
12 MR. HANNIS: Well, I'm not sure that the question calls for a yes
13 or no. If the answer is yes, then I'll ask what it is that she can relate
14 it to.
15 MR. STEWART: Well, leading questions generally do ask for a yes
16 or no.
17 MR. HANNIS: Leading questions suggest the answer you're seeking.
18 JUDGE ORIE: There are two types of leading questions; one is in
19 which the answer is already suggested, and the other type, I have to think
20 about that, which starts from a factual point of view which has not been
21 established yet. I think these are the two types of leading questions we
22 have. Let me just reread it.
23 I think the witness could answer to the following question: When
24 you said there would be one set of instructions, "all the municipalities
25 will follow certain steps to take over power," would that mean that it
1 would be the same for variant A and variant B municipalities, because you
2 are talking about one set, where the instructions seem to give different
3 sets of instructions.
4 THE WITNESS: Well, there's not that much difference between the A
5 and B variants in step 2 as to what they should be doing. The difference,
6 mostly, is in where those measures are to be undertaken, because it
7 specifies that in variant B, it's in those areas that are Serb-inhabited
8 as opposed to throughout the whole municipality. But the steps themselves
9 are quite similar between variant A and variant B at level 2. The things
10 -- what they're supposed to do is quite similar.
11 The reason I did not refer -- I -- the -- because Karadzic says at
12 the end of the speech that "we will get instructions today at the deputy's
13 club," he's not necessarily speaking of the 19 December instructions,
14 because he's saying, You will get them. He's not saying, You have
15 received this already, but "instructions will come today at the deputy's
16 club." That's why I think he's saying there will be one set of
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thanks very much.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Ms. Hanson, I'll move to tab number 52, which is master tab number
22 72, an excerpt from the fourteenth session of the assembly, 27 March 1992.
23 MR. HANNIS: And I believe the B/C/S excerpt begins on page number
24 SA025873. And the English is at page number 20, at the bottom, near the
25 middle of the page.
1 Q. Ms. Hanson, is this correct, the paragraph that begins "When you
2 return ..."
3 A. Yes.
4 "When you return to your municipalities, specially the newly
5 formed municipalities, I ask you to do what you're required and entitled
6 to do under the law. The moment you arrive in your municipalities, you
7 must urgently establish Crisis Staffs. You must try to organise the
8 people so they can defend themselves. Find a number of reserve officers
9 for those staffs and have them register everyone who owns weapons as well
10 as units. They should organise territorial defence, and if the JNA is
11 there, they must be placed under its command."
12 Then skipping the rest of that paragraph and the next paragraph,
13 in the paragraph beginning "a war in Bosnia," he says:
14 "I urge you to immediately organise the people within Territorial
15 Defence units headed by reserve officers. Form squads, platoons, and
16 Crisis Staffs, and engage retired officers. This must be done throughout
17 our areas. The presidents of municipalities and executive boards will
18 hold the highest ranks in the Crisis Staffs in addition to reserve
19 officers. We must study the situation regarding the saving of lives,
20 property, and territory. We have no other plans."
21 These are all, again, consistent with the 19 December
22 instructions; organising the TO; where possible, subordinate the police to
23 the JNA commands; that the presidents of the municipalities and executive
24 boards will hold the highest ranks in the Crisis Staff; instructions on
25 saving lives, property, and territory. Those are all elements of the 19
1 December instructions.
2 Q. Was there any additional part of that excerpt that you wanted to
3 talk about, like you've highlighted five paragraphs down --
4 A. Yes, that's another page on the board. Yes, there was more.
5 Q. For Mr. Krajisnik, I think that would be another five paragraphs
6 down from where you left off.
7 A. I'm just trying to see -- yes, it's on the next page in the
8 English, page 21, fifth paragraph down.
9 "I urge you to undertake with the full authorisation of the
10 assembly the task of introducing discipline and organising Crisis Staffs
11 headed by reserve and retired officers to organise the people for
12 defensive purposes."
13 I find it significant he says, "the full authorisation of the
14 assembly." It's not clear here whether he means this assembly or the
15 municipal assembly, but because we have heard him in the assembly saying
16 "form Crisis Staffs," I take it to mean he's telling the deputies, You
17 have our authorisation here in the assembly to go form Crisis Staffs.
18 Then the next speaker, Savo Knezevic, this is all on page 21 and
19 on page SA025874, says: "What if the municipality president doesn't want
20 to do what we're telling him? Rejects our proposals?" And Karadzic says:
21 "If they don't want to act, they should be warned."
22 First of all, Knezevic reveals an expectation -- an expectation of
23 reporting, should we let you know what's going on in the municipality if
24 the president doesn't want to carry out our plans, and Karadzic is
25 repeating what he said before, that the presidents of the municipalities
1 have the executive power at the municipal level to actually carry out our
2 plans. The deputies take the plans there, and it's the municipality
3 president who carries them out.
4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, if I may, I'd like to do one more
5 before the break. Tab number 53 in the presentation binder, which is
6 master tab 73, a document dated 4 April 1992.
7 Q. Can you tell us what that is, Ms. Hanson?
8 A. This is a public announcement of the National Security Council,
9 signed and stamped by Karadzic as president of the National Security
10 Council. In the last paragraph, he says -- it's reacting to an
11 announcement of the Bosnian presidency, that is, the presidency of the
12 Republic of Bosnia, not the Bosnian-Serb presidency. And he says that
13 should they respond to the call for mobilisation, "the Serb council for
14 national defence instructs that Crisis Staffs be activated in such areas,
15 and the readiness of the Territorial Defence be raised, as well as the
16 Serb people's civilian defence and Serb police."
17 I find it significant -- first of all, it's a public reference to
18 Crisis Staffs, and it is Karadzic speaking as president of the National
19 Security Council, not president of the SDS. And this marks, I would say,
20 the full public activation of Crisis Staffs, moving from secret party
21 organs to public government organs. And similarly, the National Security
22 Council now speaking as an organ of the Bosnian Serb state, so it's
23 Karadzic, as president of the National Security Council, not the SDS,
24 saying Crisis Staffs should be activated.
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, this may be a few minutes early, but I'm
1 about to go into a new area.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And since this second break is usually a bit
3 shorter and taken a bit earlier, we will adjourn until a quarter to 1.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we proceed, the Chamber was informed that
7 there were some problems that is available now to Mr. Krajisnik. At the
8 same time, it seems that Mr. Krajisnik has not been informed that, due to
9 the fact that the agreement was not yet signed by counsel, that, for the
10 time being, Mr. Krajisnik, you are only allowed to use the laptop in this
11 courtroom, not to take anything from that laptop to the United Nations
12 Detention Unit, so either, I think, give it to counsel on a CD or keep it
13 on the laptop. At least that's the present situation. I think that the
14 counsel could, at an appropriate time, further inform you about the
15 matters. Let me just --
16 MR. STEWART: Yes, I can, Your Honour --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Just a moment. We're not going to spend time on
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the agreement was signed, but
21 that amendments were still to be signed.
22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --
23 JUDGE ORIE: It's not a matter, in my view, that should be dealt
24 with in court at this moment, unless it has a direct bearing on the
25 proceedings at this moment.
1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, in fact, Your Honour has dealt with
2 what was going to be a comment of mine about the sense of what Your Honour
3 had just said. But thank you, that is dealt with, because it's not that
4 it's simply haven't been gotten round to. I want to tell so that Mr.
5 Krajisnik knowings right now, because it's a convenient way of informing
6 him as it happens.
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, court time on these kind of matters, of course,
8 and any issues. I'll ask otherwise that Mr. Krajisnik will be directly
9 informed, or you seek any assistance of an interpreter, but at this moment
10 we prefer to continue --
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I could have informed him in less time
12 than the comments Your Honour has just made.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, please proceed.
14 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
15 Q. I would like next to go to presentation tab 54, master tab 443,
16 assembly session 24 March 1992, and the excerpt that we want to talk about
17 is at page 8 of the English. This is Mr. Vjestica speaking again. And in
18 the B/C/S, it is on page SA025838, on the bottom of the page where Mr.
19 Vjestica is shown.
20 Ms. Hanson, can you tell us about that?
21 A. Yes, as you said, it's Vjestica's speech, once again, the
22 discussion on forming a Bosnian state. He summarises the debate so far as
23 saying that the assembly should adopt a conclusion, instructing the prime
24 minister of the Serbian republic and the ministers to prepare an
25 operational plan for assuming power so the assembly can decide when to
1 take power.
2 The last sentence:
3 "This should be simultaneously affected in all municipalities
4 where we already have a Serbian authority, and in those municipalities
5 where we have only recently established Serbian municipalities."
6 Then, to continue on the next page of the translation and the
7 original, Mr. Krajisnik then sums up the debate as saying:
8 "So the conclusion is that we give the -- the government should
9 draw up a plan for us."
10 And then Branko Dzeric, the prime minister, then says -- responds
11 to this, saying:
12 "The government will have the duty to draw up an operational plan
13 and to submit it for adoption."
14 His last sentence:
15 "Please do not take things in your own hands. You will receive
16 your instructions and you will proceed as instructed."
17 This is indicative of this time period where the assembly is much
18 concerned with creating the state and empowering the organs that they have
19 set up, including the government. And the government is clearly assuming
20 responsibility for the steps to be taken at the municipal level. The
21 prime minister is saying, Don't take things into your own hands, wait for
22 the government's instructions.
23 Q. And subsequent to that date, were there some instructions from the
24 government to Crisis Staffs?
25 A. Yes, indeed. The 26th of April, Dzeric, as prime minister or
1 president of the government --
2 Q. Ms. Hanson, let me interrupt and say for the record, Your Honour,
3 we'll go to presentation tab 55, master tab number 76.
4 A. This document is the instructions issued by Dzeric as prime
5 minister on the 26th of April, 1992. The document is called "Excerpt from
6 the Instructions for the Operation of Crisis Staffs of the Serbian People
7 and Municipalities."
8 Q. And were there similarities between this document and the earlier
9 variant A and variant B document we've been talking about?
10 A. Yes, there are similarities. Under item 2, discussing the makeup
11 and the assignments of the Crisis Staff, you'll see it's quite similar to
12 the 19 December instructions, naming president, deputy president,
13 territorial staff commander, president of the executive board, head of the
14 MUP; and then the various taskings for various members, economy,
15 humanitarian and health, information, propaganda, supplies and diet or
16 food, those are all mentioned as various tasks of the 19 December
17 instructions, various steps to be taken. Refugees, war crimes, not
18 specifically, but liaison and coordination are also taskings given in the
19 19 December instructions. So it's very similar to the 19 December
20 instructions in that sense.
21 It's also significant, the first item, that the Crisis Staff will
22 take over all prerogatives and functions of the municipal assemblies.
23 They are, essentially, becoming the municipal government. We'll see that
24 consistently throughout, both the normative documents and what the Crisis
25 Staffs say about themselves.
1 Item 3, to coordinate functions, to protect territory and safety,
2 setting up authority, organising all other streams of life and work, they
3 are the municipal authorities, they are to coordinate all the various
4 forces and resources in the municipality.
5 Item 6 is significant, because it says that the Crisis Staffs'
6 actions shall be based on constitutional and legal provisions and on the
7 decisions of the assembly, the presidency, and the government. So Crisis
8 Staffs are to act according to the decisions of the republican organs, the
9 municipality -- the assembly, and the presidency and the government.
10 Item 11 shows the reporting duty of Crisis Staffs; to notify and
11 consult the competent authorities of the Serbian BiH, that is,
12 commissioners. This is the first mention we have of commissioners. We'll
13 see them again in later documents. The commissioners, as we will see,
14 were personal links between the state leadership and the municipal level.
15 Item 14 also mandates reporting to the regional and state organs
16 of the BiH. I guess not all the pages got in Sanction.
17 So it shows -- it shows Crisis Staffs as the municipal
18 authorities, as coordinating bodies for all the different forces in the
19 municipality, and indicates the breadth of their authority and their role
20 within the Serbian state; that they are to act according to the decisions
21 of the republic organs and report back to the state organs.
22 Q. And have you next included in your presentation some examples that
23 indicate those instructions were actually disseminated and received within
24 the municipalities?
25 A. Yes. The next tab.
1 Q. Let me cite that number: Presentation tab 56, master tab number
3 A. This is a decision of the municipal assembly of Bosanska Gradiska
4 to confirm the regulations adopted by the War Presidency. As we see, that
5 was one of the stipulations of the instructions for the work of Crisis
6 Staffs that when municipal assemblies can meet, they should verify those
7 decisions taken by the Crisis Staff.
8 In the preamble, on the first page of the translation, the
9 preamble says:
10 "In conjunction with item 7 of the instructions for the work of
11 Serbian Crisis Staffs and municipalities of 26 April 1992," so that is in
12 -- evidence that those instructions were received, implemented, and
13 granted legal authority.
14 Q. Next, let me take you to tab 57, master tab number 391. Tell us
15 about that one.
16 A. The decision on the formation of the Crisis Staff of the
17 municipality of Bosanska Dubica is similarly taken pursuant to the
18 instructions for the work of Crisis Staffs of the Serbian people and
20 Q. Tab number 58, master tab number 78.
21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Pardon me. I would just like to
22 know, to what does the Official Gazette correspond? If the witness can
23 inform us on that.
24 THE WITNESS: Correspond in what sense? I'm sorry.
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, may I ask you a question in that regard?
1 Are you referring to the last tab that the Official Gazette of Bosanska
2 Dubica municipality? Because there are more than one Official Gazettes
3 that we'll talk about.
4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Very good. So this is what I
5 wanted to know. So this is the Official Gazette of the republic; is that
7 THE WITNESS: Of the municipality.
8 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Of the municipality, yes. Thank
9 you very much.
10 THE WITNESS: The municipality had its own in addition to the
12 MR. HANNIS:
13 Q. And there was a republic -- Republika Srpska Official Gazette as
15 A. Yes, there was.
16 Q. And were decisions of local Crisis Staffs or municipal Crisis
17 Staffs published in the state Official Gazette or the republic Official
18 Gazette --
19 A. No, they were published in the municipal gazette. Municipal
20 decisions in the municipal gazette, and republic decisions in the
21 republic gazette. Is that it?
22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
24 Q. Next, tab number 58 in the presentation binder, which is master
25 tab number 78.
1 A. Yes. This is the decision of the Serbian municipality of Bihac,
2 dated the 21st of May, 1992, on appointment of members of the Crisis
3 Staff. In its preamble, once again, it cites:
4 "The instruction of the Serbian government of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
5 the excerpt from the instructions for the work of Crisis Staffs of the
6 Serbian people and municipalities."
7 Not only does it give that direct citation, but other articles are
8 -- clearly reflect Dzeric's instructions. For example, number 2, the
9 makeup corresponds to the taskings. And, in fact, on Article 9, they
10 explicitly say that -- this is on the second page of the translation:
11 "Crisis Staff members shall work and perform their duties in
12 accordance with the instructions for the work of Crisis Staffs in the
13 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
14 So clear indication that the instructions were disseminated,
15 implemented, and granted authority in the eyes of those who received it.
16 Q. I'll go to tab number 59 in the presentation binder, which is
17 master tab number 100. Can you tell us about this one from the assembly
18 of Prijedor?
19 A. It's similar to the Bihac decision, but it's even more extensive.
20 It's a decision on the organisation and work of the Crisis Staff of
21 Prijedor municipality, and it similarly paraphrases or echoes Dzeric's
22 instructions. Article 2 of the Prijedor instruction is -- I believe it's
23 almost identical to Article 3 of Dzeric's instructions. Article 4, the
24 makeup of the Prijedor municipality, is similarly consistent with Dzeric's
25 instructions. Other articles are very close paraphrasings of it.
1 Q. In addition to these examples in some of the municipal staff
2 Crisis Staff documents, did you see other reflections that indicated the
3 instructions had been received and followed?
4 A. Yes. We have an explicit statement to that effect in the
6 Q. Let me refer you to the next tab. Presentation number 60, master
7 tab number 392. And for locating the excerpt in the B/C/S, it's at page
8 number 02149523, I believe the second line; and in the English, Your
9 Honours, it's on the page numbered 29 of 104, about eight lines up from
10 the bottom, beginning "In one period we worked ..."
11 A. Yes. This is Milanovic, a deputy from Banja Luka. He says:
12 "In one period we worked according to the government instructions
13 and formed Crisis Staffs."
14 So he's saying they got those instructions and formed Crisis
16 Q. And tab number 61 in the presentation binder, which is master tab
17 number 68, can you tell us about that document, who it's from and --
18 A. Yes, this is an interesting document. I will refer to it later as
19 well. It is from the secretary of the executive committee of the SDS,
20 Trivko Komad, it says illegible, but under the circumstances we know it's
21 Trivko, dated the 31st of May, 1992. It's addressed to the presidents of
22 governments of three Serb Autonomous Regions. And it's reminding them
23 that Crisis Staffs' structure and method of work and functioning were
24 established by the instructions of the government of the Serbian Republic
25 of BiH of 26 April 1992. So it's further evidence that these instructions
1 were seen as the normative document at that time for Crisis Staffs. As we
2 note, this letter will then go on to say they've been abolished to later
3 decisions. We'll be looking at those decisions in a second. But the
4 first reference to this letter shows that the instructions were -- had
5 formed -- were the guidelines for the Crisis Staffs at that time.
6 Q. Is there anything else you want to talk about that document now,
7 or is that for later?
8 A. I think for later we'll -- well, just that the sentence continues
9 that there's a decision on the establishment of War Presidencies of 31 May
10 1992. We'll be getting to that in a moment, so I'll keep my comments for
12 Q. That takes me to the next topic I want to talk about. In your
13 report, you have a section --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one additional question in relation to
15 it. It gives a number in handwriting at the top. Has that a specific
16 meaning, just as -- well ...
17 THE WITNESS: I believe this document was received from Rajko
18 Dukic. He submitted a number of documents to the Tribunal. It may be
19 that this was number 22 of the documents he gave. I don't know otherwise.
20 Certainly, I would not assign any other significance to that number.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Not like limited distribution of copies.
22 THE WITNESS: No.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
25 Q. I want to go to a new section in your report. You talk about War
1 Presidencies and War Commissions. Before we make that transfer, can you
2 explain what the difference was between Crisis Staffs and War Presidencies
3 and War Commissions?
4 A. In my report, I explain that I take them to be much the same body.
5 The -- as the Bosnian Serb state is being created, and the legal
6 foundations are being written and the organs being actually empowered,
7 there is a transition from Crisis Staffs to War Presidencies and War
8 Commissions, but they are clearly various versions of essentially the same
9 body. They are the municipality authorities that take over from municipal
10 assemblies with all of the functions and prerogatives of a municipal
11 asssembly. For that reason, I'll consider them as essentially the same
13 Moreover, as we will see, there is considerable inconsistency in
14 the way the terminology is applied. The people on the ground themselves
15 used the terminology inter-changeably in a way that suggests they did not
16 see or they weren't careful about the terminology because there wasn't an
17 essential difference among those bodies. We'll see that the decisions on
18 establishing War Presidencies and War Commissions come from the presidency
19 of the BiH -- of the Serbian republic, excuse me. And it's an attempt --
20 it's part of the process, I would say, of normalising, legalising the
21 situation. So I think it will become clear as we look at the steps to get
23 Q. So was there some sort of government decision to abolish the
24 Crisis Staffs and create these newer versions of local governing bodies?
25 A. Yes, we see that in the next document.
1 Q. Okay.
2 MR. HANNIS: For the record, this is presentation tab 62, master
3 tab number 107.
4 Q. Tell us about that, please.
5 A. These are the minutes of the meeting of the government of the Serb
6 republic, from the 23rd of May, 1992. If you go to article -- item 4, the
7 government concludes that Crisis Staffs should be abolished. "Conditions
8 for the functioning of regular organs should be created as soon as
9 possible. Municipalities should be given all help in doing so."
10 The government holds that War Presidencies should be established
11 in municipalities. "The War Presidencies would govern for a certain
12 period of time until all the preparations for creating the conditions for
13 forming and work of regular governing organs have been carried out."
14 So you can see that it's a -- they are in the transition, the
15 transition to regular organs of government. How do we get there? Well,
16 we'll start with War Presidencies to take over from Crisis Staffs, and
17 when all the regular municipal organs can function, then we'll get back to
18 the municipal assembly and the regular organs. So the transition here is
19 from the original Crisis Staffs, as we know, created by the SDS, then form
20 -- functioning as the municipal government, now to regularise the
21 situation and get towards a -- towards a regular functioning municipal
22 government, with all the organs empowered.
23 Q. So that was on the 23rd of May, 1992.
24 A. Mm-hm.
25 Q. The following day, I want to direct you to a document which is
1 presentation tab 63, master tab number 108. The next day, what is this
2 document, who did it come from, and what is it about?
3 A. This document is signed by Biljana Plavsic for the presidency of
4 the Serb Republic of BiH, dated the 24th of May, 1992, and it is
5 instructions for the organisation and work of presidencicies and
6 municipalities in conditions of the imminent threat of war and a state of
7 war, directing municipalities to form presidencies. As I mentioned in my
8 report, I don't know if I need to explain again, municipal assemblies had
9 -- there was a president of the municipal assembly, but there was the
10 concept of a collective body, a presidency, to replace them when they --
11 when assemblies could not meet in full. So it would not be a single
12 president but a body of the leadership meeting to replace it. So this is
13 -- that was in the original legislation of the Socialist Republic of
14 Yugoslavia -- of Bosnia.
15 Just to note quickly what Plavsic foresees as the purpose of these
16 presidencies. To coordinate and create all conditions for the functioning
17 of legal organs; accord and synchronise activities for defence; and enable
18 the work of municipal organs and units. So there are -- the emphasis,
19 again, on coordination and on enabling defence is an important one.
20 Again, these instructions indicate a commissioner to -- the role
21 of the commissioner, it says in the last -- second to last paragraph:
22 "The commissioner is authorised to undertake all measures
23 regarding the organisation and work of municipal presidencies, to ensure
24 constant coordination and implementation of the policies," it says "of
25 measures," but I believe it might be "measures, determined and issued by
1 the public state organs and the Main Staff of the Serb Republic of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina," and "the commissioner appoints the presidency."
3 So this shows a close tie from the republican level to the
4 municipal. The commissioner is the link. He appoints the presidencies,
5 and he is to coordinate what they do with republican organs, and also the
6 Main Staff. So there's clearly a military role intended if part of the
7 job of the municipal presidencies is to carry out the measures and
8 policies of the Main Staff or General Staff.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down. Thank you.
10 MR. HANNIS:
11 Q. Prior to this time with the Crisis Staff, was there any equivalent
12 position, such as a commissioner, that was a link between the municipal
13 Crisis Staffs and the republic organs?
14 A. Well, we saw in Dzeric's instructions from the 26th of April,
15 there was mention of a commissioner. We also -- that is the first use I
16 have seen of the term "commissioner" in this context, yes.
17 Q. Now, that was on the 24th of May. Let me take you to the 31st of
18 May. The next document, presentation tab 64, master tab number 110. This
19 appears to be another sequence in the evolution of these local governing
20 bodies. Can you tell us about that one?
21 A. Yes. This is the decision of the presidency of the Serb republic,
22 signed by Karadzic as president of the presidency, dated the 31st of May,
23 on the formation of War Presidencies in municipalities.
24 Article 3 on the duties and authorities of a War Presidency are
25 very similar to what we've seen in Plavsic's instructions: organise,
1 coordinate, and adjust activities for the defence of the Serbian people
2 and for the establishment of the law for municipal authorities; perform
3 all the duties of the assembly and the executive body until those
4 authorities are able to convene and work; create and ensure conditions for
5 the work of military bodies and units.
6 Once again, we'll see there will be a commissioner, and the
7 phrasing is very similar on -- he is to ensure coordination and
8 implementation of the policies and measures of the state organs and the
9 Main Staff. So it's very similar to the previous instructions, but an
10 emphasis, again, on the transition, "until the regular authorities can
11 carry out work, we have these War Presidencies."
12 Article 5, this is clearly meant to replace Crisis Staffs. "The
13 day War Presidencies are established, Crisis Staffs will cease to
15 Q. And this decision was published in the republic Official Gazette
17 A. Official Gazette, yes.
18 Q. Okay. Now, let me take you to the next document, presentation tab
19 number 65, master tab number 111. Can you tell us briefly what that is?
20 A. This is an amendment to the constitution now allowing for a
21 municipal presidency. That VRS constitution, until that point, had not
22 had an allowance for municipal presidencies. So after the presidency
23 issues its decision on the 31st of May, the constitution is then amended
24 to allow for presidencies.
25 I find significant that it says "The republic presidency shall
1 provide for the manner, composition, and the competence of War
2 Presidencies," which would mean that the republican presidency could give
3 municipal War Presidencies more authority than they might necessarily get
4 as being the replacement for the municipal assembly.
5 Q. Now, shortly before any of this could be implemented and War
6 Presidencies created, was there a change in the structure and the identity
7 of the body that was to function as the local governing body in conditions
8 of war or imminent threat of war?
9 A. Yes. We see, just ten days after that, the decision on War
10 Presidencies, a very similar decision on the formation of War Commissions,
11 on the 10th of June, 1992.
12 Q. Can you briefly tell us --
13 MR. HANNIS: Let me pause there for a moment.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: I have to apologise to the parties, but there was an
17 urgent scheduling matter not concerning specifically this Chamber,
18 although it might result in moving tomorrow to the afternoon rather than
19 to the morning. Therefore, I say this aloud, that if some of you say that
20 you have to go to the dentist, I'd like to hear it right now.
21 MR. STEWART: Oddly enough, I think co-counsel has just been to
22 the dentist, Your Honour. No, there is no problem that I'm aware of right
24 JUDGE ORIE: We have to further check whether it's possible at
25 all. So, therefore, Mr. Hannis?
1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, my witness might have something
3 THE WITNESS: No, no, no. No problem.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is not in this courtroom, but that's
5 what's kept us busy for three minutes. I apologise for that. Please
6 proceed, Mr. Hannis.
7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
8 Q. With regard to this document, master tab number 112, this is a
9 decision on the establishment of War Commissions. Could you briefly
10 explain to the Judges, what was the difference between War Commissions and
11 War Presidencies, what some of the salient details are?
12 A. According to this decision, which is dated 10 June 1992, this --
13 according to this decision, it supersedes the decision on the
14 establishment of War Presidencies. However, we will see, in practice,
15 that we do have War Presidencies after this date, and we don't see War
16 Commissions everywhere. You have to bear that in mind, that, as written,
17 it was not quite what we see on the ground.
18 But the emphasis in this decision is even more on getting to
19 normality, that War Commissions are to be transitioning bodies,
20 functioning until such time as municipal assemblies can operate.
21 The composition in Article 2 is a little different; to consist of
22 a state commissioner and members from the Crisis Staff, the economy, and
23 the ruling party. So the Crisis Staff and the SDS still remain important
24 here, but it's a slightly different body in its makeup.
25 Their role as communicators between the republican level and the
1 municipality is very clear in Articles 3 and 4. They shall convey
2 directives issued by the presidency of the republic, and similarly report
3 back on problems and work of the municipal bodies. The presidency -- the
4 republican president appoints the commissioners. The commissioners, in
5 turn, appoint War Presidencies.
6 So it's -- I think that's correct in the original. Yes, I'm
7 sorry, it's -- there seems to be a problem in the translation in Article
9 Q. Can you read us the B/C/S?
10 A. Yes. The B/C/S says:
11 [Interpretation] "Republican commissioner appoints the War
13 [In English] No, it's "prvano istvo".
14 THE INTERPRETER: "War Commission," then.
15 A. The problem is the translation of "commission" or "presidency".
16 In the original, it's commission, War Commission; in the translation, it's
17 War Presidencies.
18 Q. Where it says --
19 A. "The state commissioner shall appoint the War Presidencies." It
20 should be War Commission.
21 There is a great deal of confusion, even in the original
22 documents, between these terms, so I -- it's not surprising that it
23 appears here as well. But it's -- clearly, this decision is about War
24 Commissions, not War Presidencies.
25 MR. HANNIS: This is a CLSS translation, Your Honour, but if the
1 Defence and the interpreters would agree, I would suggest that it does
2 make more sense that, in the context of this document, it probably does
3 mean commissions rather than presidencies.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, it's not something to be negotiated
5 between the parties, what the right translation of a document would be.
6 I'd like the Prosecution, perhaps together with the expert and the
7 interpreters, to find a final -- after having consulted, because it's the
8 final responsibility of the interpreters, but perhaps, if need be, after
9 consultation of the Office of the Prosecution and the expert, to propose a
10 final translation. If there's any reason to contest that translation,
11 we'll hear from the Defence.
12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, what would be helpful, because -- Your
13 Honour, we would deal with this short point out of court. Of course, what
14 would be helpful is just -- perhaps a quick e-mail from Mr. Hannis would
15 be helpful, and then we can deal with it straight away.
16 MR. HANNIS: I will do that.
17 MR. STEWART: Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I just wanted to make clear that
19 translation is not a matter of something like agreed facts, that it's
20 beyond any further discussion. But let's proceed.
21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
22 Q. And after this decision, did you see, in the document collection,
23 evidence that war commissioners were actually appointed throughout the
25 A. Yes. We have a number of appointments of war commissioners.
1 Q. Let me suggest a way for us to go through that in the remaining
2 minutes we have. I'll just read the tab number and the master tab number
3 and then ask if you'll tell us who signed the appointment, who was
4 appointed, and what, if anything, you know about that person who was
5 appointed; where they were from and what position they might have held.
6 Tab 67, master tab 396.
7 A. Karadzic signed the appointment of Vojislav Maksimovic as state
8 commissioner for Foca.
9 Q. Tab 68 -- presentation tab 68, master tab number 399.
10 A. Karadzic signing the appointment of Milan Trbojevic for
11 Herzegovina. Milan Trbojevic was also deputy prime minister of the
12 government of RS.
13 Q. Presentation tab 69, master tab 394.
14 A. Karadzic signing the appointment of Dragan Jovanovic as
15 commissioner for Ilijas, noting that he is replacing the current
16 commissioner, Jovan Tintor.
17 Q. Presentation tab 70, master tab number 458.
18 A. Karadzic signing the appointment of Dragan Dzukanovic as
19 commissioner. This decision does not indicate his responsibilities, but
20 we'll see them in the next -- we'll see some in the next documents.
21 Q. Which is tab 71 in the presentation binder, master tab 397.
22 A. Karadzic confirming the appointment of the members of the War
23 Commission for Zvornik, and Dragan Dzukanovic is number 1, so it indicates
24 that Zvornik was one of Dzukanovic's areas of responsibility.
25 Q. Do you know if the remaining four persons named there were from
2 A. Yes. Mijatovic and Grujic were leaders in the SDS.
3 Q. Tab number 72 in the presentation binder, master tab 398.
4 A. Karadzic signing the confirmation of the appointment of the
5 members of the War Commission for Bratunac. Dzukanovic, again, is number
6 1. Number 2, Miroslav Deronjic, was president of the municipal board of
8 Q. Tab number 73 in the presentation binder, master tab 400.
9 A. It's another confirmation of a War Commission, this time for
10 Vogosca, stamped -- signed by Karadzic.
11 Q. And who was the number 1?
12 A. Nikola Poplasen, who was war commissioner.
13 Q. Presentation tab 74, master tab 395.
14 A. Karadzic signing the appointment of Marko Simic and Marko Ralovic
15 [phoen] as commissioners for Stari Grad and Centre Sarajevo.
16 Q. Tab number 75 in the presentation binder, master tab 140.
17 A. This is the appointment of Jovo Mijatovic as commissioner for the
18 municipality of Ilidza. The name -- the typed signature is Karadzic, but
19 the signature is consistent with other documents signed by Momcilo
21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I asked Mr. Tieger to come down because
22 I think he had some comments on the comments made by Mr. Stewart this
23 morning. This might be a good point for me to break my presentation for
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time will Mr. Tieger need?
1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. I'd be very brief, I
2 believe, unless the Court has some specific questions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We have eight minutes left, so Mr. Hannis has already
4 offered to stop. But if you need only two minutes, then I'd ask the
5 witness to stay, perhaps, and to fill the last five minutes, if possible.
7 MR. TIEGER: That's fine.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please, it's not something that should be dealt with
9 in the absence of the witness, because otherwise we should ask her to
10 leave, et cetera. It's --
11 MR. TIEGER: I don't believe so. And if we start --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever there's --
13 MR. STEWART: I can't see any possible objection. If Ms. Hanson
14 can bear listening to it, Your Honour, we don't have any problem.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
16 MR. TIEGER: The Court is aware of why I'm here. In response to
17 Mr. Stewart's comments, I had contact with Ms. Cmeric, their case
18 manager. She contacted Mr. Stewart. He graciously agreed that Ms. Cmeric
19 and I could meet to discuss the areas or the issues in dispute, if there
20 were any.
21 My suggestion is basically this, Your Honour: That I take the
22 opportunity, after court, to meet with Mr. Stewart to relate to him what
23 my understanding of the areas of in dispute are and their relevant
24 significance. Then, if those remain issues that need to be brought to the
25 attention of the Court in order for the Court to render a proper decision
1 in light of any new information, we would endeavour to do so before the
2 beginning of court tomorrow morning, or get it to the Court first thing
3 tomorrow. So rather than discuss it now, we can refine it based on the
4 discussion that took place.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.
6 MR. STEWART: It's always a pleasure to meet Mr. Tieger, Your
7 Honour, and I would accept the offer.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we have six minutes left.
9 MR. STEWART: The transcript says "pressure," Your Honour, but I
10 said "pleasure". It's there now.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I understood you. Unfortunately, body language
12 cannot be translated into the transcript.
13 Mr. Hannis. I take it, of course, I'm not going to force you, but
14 if you can find something to deal with in five or six minutes.
15 MR. HANNIS: I can.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
17 MR. HANNIS:
18 Q. I think the last exhibit, you explained to us that, although it
19 has Dr. Karadzic's typed signature, that you recognise the handwritten
20 signature as being that of Mr. Krajisnik?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How are you able to do that? In the course of you preparing this
23 report, did you have lots of occasions to see his signature?
24 A. I had occasions. And noticing that this didn't -- looked more
25 like his than Karadzic's, I then went and consulted other signatures --
1 other documents signed by him. And it is consistent to my eyes. It's
2 such a small signature, I can't say conclusively that it ...
3 Q. Now, next I want to ask you about tab 76 in the presentation
4 binder, master tab number 138, minutes of the fifteenth session of the
5 presidency on 6 July.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell us why you put that in here at this point?
8 A. Yes. Item 4 in the minutes, on page 3 in the English translation,
9 on page 00767926, helps explain how -- why Mr. Krajisnik's might be on the
10 appointment of the commissioner, because the presidency divides some tasks
11 up and Mr. Krajisnik is named as the member of the presidency responsible
12 for questions related to commissioners.
13 Q. Presentation tab number 77, master tab number 139.
14 A. Is another appointment, or it's a decision of the presidency
15 regarding the -- Jovo Miskin as commissioner. Same as the Mijatovic
16 appointment, it's Karadzic named typed, but a signature consistent with
17 Momcilo Krajisnik's signed.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, may I ask you. We're now talking about
19 signatures and signatures that look very much like others. Is this
20 something you will pursue on an expert level, or is it -- of course,
21 that would only be necessary if it would be contested. But what could we
22 expect? Because with due respect to the expertise by Ms. Hanson, she
23 seems not to be particularly educated in this field.
24 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour, I'm not proposing to suggest her as
25 a handwriting expert. However, we think, given the circumstances of what
1 these documents are, who issued the documents, who were the members of the
2 presidency at the time, who had the responsibility for dealing
3 commissioners, and comparing the signatures of those known persons with
4 this signature, we think her opinion on that may have some weight that the
5 Court could attach to it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do understand that you have not in mind at
7 this moment to present any expert evidence in terms of --
8 MR. HANNIS: Not at this time, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the Defence whether it is contested that
10 the signatures attributed, more or less, in a very cautious way, in a
11 sense to Mr. Krajisnik, whether they are contested?
12 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, we notice the first time a moment
13 ago, I think it was the first time that Ms. Hanson did speak about whether
14 it was this person's signature or that person's signature, we registered,
15 well, perhaps, something to the same effect as Your Honours' observation:
16 perhaps Ms. Hanson didn't really have the expertise. It's happened a
17 couple of times. What we suggest, Your Honour -- I can't answer Your
18 Honour's question straight off, but we had thought, well, of course, we
19 can check with Mr. Krajisnik. If he says that a certain number of
20 signatures are his, then maybe there will be no contest. If we do have a
21 contest, then, Your Honour, the question of whether Ms. Hanson is equipped
22 to express any opinion on these matters would be a live question. But I
23 suggest we leave it, as Mr. Hannis's approach, to see whether it's a
24 practical issue.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The parties are urged to -- if there would be
1 any serious dispute about this matter, not to leave it until the last
2 minute to make it appear, because then the Chamber would like to -- the
3 Chamber would like to, first of all, that the Prosecution under those
4 circumstances would be aware, and the Chamber would like to be aware as
6 Mr. Hannis, I'm not asking you to, unless you would want to, put a
7 final question for today to the witness. We have one minute left.
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I would just indicate that the next tab,
9 tab 78, is actually a duplicate of tab 75, so we're going to withdrawn
10 that one and skip it, and that would seem to be a good place to end for
11 the day.
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. A withdrawal of a document, Mr. Hannis, is
14 always welcomed, as you can understand.
15 It took me a while to consider what to say as my last words of the
16 day, but at least we'll adjourn until tomorrow afternoon rather than until
17 tomorrow morning. We will adjourn until quarter past two in the
18 afternoon. But that could change at this very moment.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: The uncertainties of a Presiding Judge are not to be
21 underestimated. We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same
22 courtroom. And I'd like to instruct you, Ms. Hanson, not to speak with
23 anyone, not even your colleagues at this moment, about the testimony you
24 have given or you're still about to give, which perhaps is not easy for
25 someone who is employed by the Office of the Prosecutor. But I
1 nevertheless would like to stress that you are under a duty not to do so.
2 We'll adjourn.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day of
5 March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.