Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13393

1 Wednesday, 25 May 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Before we start with the next witness, I'd like to inform the

11 parties that some rumours reached this Chamber about developments in the

12 relationship between Defence counsel and the accused. If there's anything

13 the Chamber should know about at this moment - and I am talking about

14 information, not about discussing the present situation, because assignment

15 of counsel is not primarily a matter of this Chamber, but it's primarily a

16 matter of the Registry, of the Registrar. But if the Chamber should know

17 anything about it at this moment, we're willing to hear whatever

18 information we need to know at this moment. And I address this both to

19 counsel and to Mr. Krajisnik, because if the rumours are true, then it does

20 not go without saying any more that what counsel say also reflects what is

21 in the mind of Mr. Krajisnik in respect of this.

22 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I -- I hope that what I say, at

23 least to some degree, reflects what's in my mind. Of course, I -- to make

24 submissions in particular circumstances.

25 But, Your Honour, the position is that it is necessary for me to

Page 13394

1 inform the Trial Chamber of the position, and I also, without wishing to

2 inconvenience and over-dramatise the position, I did suggest that Mr.

3 Harmon, as the senior trial attorney on the Prosecution team, should come

4 to court, and I see and I'm delighted to see that he's been able to bring

5 Mr. Tieger with him as well as Mr. Margetts, who's here anyway for the next

6 witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's go to the subject.

8 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I'm going to go to the subject,

9 Your Honour, but I'm also going to try and do it with normal courtesies.

10 I've brought my co-counsel with me in view of the importance of the matter

11 as well, Your Honour.

12 Your Honour, the position is that I received a copy of a letter

13 from Mr. Krajisnik yesterday afternoon, a letter from him to the Registrar.

14 So it was my copy. That letter, I understand, was received by the

15 Registrar yesterday.

16 Your Honour, I have written to the Registrar overnight. I have

17 delivered a letter to the Registrar this morning; it's just been delivered.

18 Your Honour, my letter does contain, in a nutshell, what it is I

19 have to inform the Court about. May I also add this, Your Honour, that the

20 letter of course as a courtesy and as a matter of substantial information

21 should go to Mr. Krajisnik. I have arranged through my case manager a

22 translation. The only slight difficulty with that is that I have slightly

23 changed the letter overnight since that translation was done.

24 Your Honour, it's a single-page letter. What I propose to do,

25 Your Honour, with your permission, is to hand up copies now immediately to

Page 13395

1 the Trial Chamber. I've already supplied a copy to the Prosecution. Your

2 Honour, since I haven't got the final Serbian translation available for Mr.

3 Krajisnik, Your Honour, I was proposing to read it out so it's interpreted

4 for Mr. Krajisnik, then everybody, including the public, everybody can know

5 -- it's a single page -- can know what the current position is. And that's

6 the information, Your Honour, and then we -- well, we -- we go from -- we

7 go from there.

8 So may I hand up those. And then, Your Honour, what I -- well,

9 I'll --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you --

11 MR. STEWART: Let's take that step first.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please slow down a little bit, Mr. Stewart. There

13 are some interpretation problems.

14 Yes. One moment.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would be grateful for a copy

16 of the letter as well, too.

17 MR. STEWART: Indeed. No problem.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, before we start reading out documents

20 or hearing documents, I'd like to give an opportunity to Mr. Krajisnik, to

21 ask whether -- because he was the first one who wrote a letter, as far as I

22 understand. It seems that it is about the relationship between Defence

23 counsel and Mr. Krajisnik.

24 So I'd like to give an opportunity to see whether he thinks

25 there's anything he should inform us about at this moment.

Page 13396

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, with the greatest with respect, this

2 letter, which I have almost have read now in this time, it is more

3 important and more logical that Mr. Krajisnik should know what I have

4 written, because this copy has now gone to everybody except Mr. Krajisnik

5 in effect, because I haven't been able to finalise the Serbian translation.

6 It is important that he should not be the only one in court --

7 JUDGE ORIE: And then --

8 MR. STEWART: -- who has not got the content of this letter.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest the following: That we give an

10 opportunity to your case manager to more or less briefly inform Mr.

11 Krajisnik about the content of this letter. Then we'll hear from Mr.

12 Krajisnik whether there's anything additionally he thinks we should know

13 about, and then we'll finally decide what to read, or to receive what

14 information at this moment.

15 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honours have that information. Your

16 Honour, of course, that -- that does solve the practical point of

17 explaining to Mr. Krajisnik or telling him what's in the letter.


19 MR. STEWART: So --

20 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's the first step then we should take.

21 MR. STEWART: Yes. It's absolutely then no quicker, Your

22 Honour, than my way. It's another way of doing it.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You know how much I am always concerned about time

24 but not under all circumstances to the last second.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 13397

1 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Just for practical reason, we'll just adjourn for

3 two or three minutes so that Mr. Krajisnik will be informed about it.

4 Really two or three minutes only.

5 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. Can I just say, Your Honour,

6 this is a less efficient way of doing it now than the method I'd suggested.

7 It clearly is, with respect, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that you'd prefer to have it

9 done another way.

10 MR. STEWART: There's no preference, Your Honour, it clearly is

11 -- JUDGE ORIE: Two or three minutes.

12 --- Break taken at 9.20 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 9.27 a.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, may I ask you whether you were

15 informed about the content of the letter of Mr. Stewart.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have been informed of the

17 contents of the letter.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Is there anything you think

19 would --

20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I simply --


22 MR. STEWART: I'm sure this can shorten the matter, Your Honour.

23 Mr. Krajisnik and I have agreed that I should ask Your Honours if I may now

24 have the opportunity, which I have not had since these letters were

25 delivered, to go and discuss the matter with Mr. Krajisnik, apart from the

Page 13398

1 just brief opportunity of knowing the contents of the letter.

2 Your Honour, I'm asking for, Your Honour, in the first place

3 something like 15 minutes would be sensible, I suggest. I'm asking for

4 that time to go and discuss the matter with Mr. Krajisnik before either of

5 us says anything else to the Trial Chamber.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stewart, since we are confident that it's

8 the wish of you and Mr. Krajisnik both to have this meeting first and, as I

9 said, the Chamber is willing to give Mr. Krajisnik an opportunity to say

10 what he thinks we should know. And, again, this is not the time for

11 submissions and argument, et cetera. I just was interested to know what

12 the Chamber should know before we proceed.

13 If it's your common wish to have 20 minutes, we'll adjourn for

14 20 minutes.

15 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 --- Break taken at 9.30 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.07 a.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart and Mr. Krajisnik, you've had an

19 opportunity to consult with each other. Does that lead to anything

20 important for us to know at this moment?

21 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, thank you for that opportunity.

22 We -- we did need and we're grateful to have a chance for a little bit

23 longer than discussed.

24 Your Honour, my position right now is that first of all, because

25 I've not in any way been wishing to stifle Mr. Krajisnik saying something

Page 13399

1 to the Trial Chamber, so although I do have a couple of things to say, Your

2 Honour, may I invite you to invite Mr. Krajisnik --


4 MR. STEWART: -- to say whatever he now wishes to say.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Krajisnik, you may address the Chamber,

6 not to argue on the issues but just to inform the Chamber on the present

7 situation such as what may have been in your letter or what your present

8 position is. That's what the Chamber would like to know.

9 And I address again that assignment of counsel is primarily the

10 responsibility of the Registry.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Krajisnik.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I'd like to thank

13 the Trial Chamber, and I've made a decision very unwillingly to take care

14 of my own defence and to participate in this trial in an active, rather

15 than a passive way, as I'm doing now. And I do hope I'll have further

16 opportunity to explain to you why all this has happened. And for the time

17 being, all I want to say is two sentences, no more.

18 Your Honours, at the very start, I said I was not guilty, and I

19 said I do not ask you to believe me I'm not guilty but to make it possible

20 for me to establish the truth. My Defence team at the moment is unable to

21 assist me in establishing the truth, I am convinced of that, because of the

22 situation and the conditions. And if you wish me to provide any more

23 detailed explanation at any point in time, I will be more than glad to do

24 so.

25 Thank you very much once again.

Page 13400

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, Defence strategy and Defence tactics

2 and Defence goals and aims are not something that the Trial Chamber would

3 like to be involved in whatever way. So, therefore, I'm not going to

4 invite you to, at this moment, give us further explanation on that, which

5 might easily come down to discussing the kinds of differences of opinion

6 there is, which this Chamber considers not to be appropriate to hear. So

7 therefore the Chamber just accepts at this moment that you take this

8 position.

9 Mr. Stewart --

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, first of all --


12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just add something?


14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am going to ask the Trial

15 Chamber to kindly enable me to address you. Whenever you wish me to do so,

16 I'd like it to be a private session. It is a complex issue. I've

17 addressed the Trial Chamber on a number of occasions making this appeal,

18 and it has never been granted so far. Thank you.

19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour.


21 MR. STEWART: May I say, first of all, Your Honour, with

22 respect, there is a very great tendency for the Trial Chamber and, I must

23 say on occasions the Registry as well, who give us enormous support, to

24 assume that they know what, in fact, they don't know. And, Your Honour,

25 Mr. Krajisnik can contradict me on this, but from what I know, what Mr.

Page 13401

1 Krajisnik just said in a very brief way was nothing whatever to do with

2 disagreements over strategy tactics or anything like that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: No. Okay.

4 MR. STEWART: And the Trial Chamber is making a false assumption

5 in asserting publicly that that's what it's about.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then explain myself. In allowing Mr.

7 Krajisnik to explain the reasons why he wants to represent himself, and

8 given that he has told us that he thinks he can achieve the aims of what

9 his defence is, and where he considers that, as he told us, that the

10 Defence is not in a position to assist him at this moment, there was a fair

11 risk that such matters could be part of what Mr. Krajisnik -- at least,

12 there was a risk there. We do not know; that's always the problem. If you

13 tell someone that you do not want to know the reasons for certain matters,

14 then it often is that among these reasons there might be ones which it

15 would not be appropriate to know about. That's the only thing. So there's

16 no assumption of what we know. There is, however, an awareness of a

17 certain risk.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

19 MR. STEWART: Well, thank you, Your Honour. I'm glad we've got

20 that cleared up, the -- because without my going into that at all, the

21 essential reasons for what Mr. Krajisnik says about his Defence team's

22 inability to represent him effectively are, in fact, a matter of complete

23 agreement between Mr. Krajisnik and his Defence team.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

25 MR. STEWART: The -- but I won't go any further than that.

Page 13402

1 There is a much higher measure of agreement between Mr. Krajisnik and his

2 Defence team than might superficially be supposed.

3 Your Honour, the -- the second point is this: That although

4 Your Honour says that the question of assignment of counsel is primarily a

5 matter for the Registry, that is certainly true in circumstances which

6 arise from time to time and have actually arisen in relation to co-counsel

7 in this case, where, for example, there's the question of an application

8 for withdrawal of the assignment of counsel. That's a -- a judicial or

9 quasi-judicial decision for the Registrar, subject to appeal to the

10 President, and doesn't directly involve the Trial Chamber, though, of

11 course, they would be consulted among a number of parties concerned.

12 But, Your Honour, the -- I hope, succinct analysis that's set

13 out in my letter is what we, Mr. Krajisnik's, by our likes, former Defence

14 team submit is the correct analysis. In this situation, it is not a matter

15 for a decision for the Registrar. It is a consequence of the Statute and

16 the Rules and the directives, those Rules and directives made pursuant to

17 that Statute. It is a consequence of those, and that is the legal

18 position, in effect, that as a result of the steps that Mr. Krajisnik has

19 taken, we are no longer his counsel. And we stand here, we come along to

20 assist and inform the Court that we are not his counsel. And it follows,

21 as I have said in the letter, it is not proper for us to become involved.

22 We do not have the locus standi to do that. We do not owe Mr. Krajisnik

23 duties as his counsel.

24 Of course, Your Honour, we're not simply abandoning and taking

25 some contrary position to Mr. Krajisnik on issues, but we are not his

Page 13403

1 counsel. We do not owe duties to him as his counsel. We have been removed

2 from the case. And that -- so we -- it is not proper for us to proceed to

3 attempt to conduct Mr. Krajisnik's case this morning because we are no

4 longer on the case. And it is not a matter for decision of the Registrar

5 as if we had applied. That's an entirely separate issue, to be withdrawn

6 from a case. We are withdrawn from a case. And we -- we refer

7 specifically to Article 20, where the provision that in some circumstances

8 there might be a deferral until the accused has declared his intention in

9 writing to conduct his own defence. He has made that declaration. That

10 possibility of deferral has expired at the same time that Mr. Krajisnik

11 indicated that he was discontinuing our services. It's a completely

12 separate limb from the withdrawal procedure in relation to the Registry.

13 We are, and we've expressed no personal opinion or view on that,

14 we are not Mr. Krajisnik's counsel here this morning, Your Honour. He does

15 not have counsel. He is conducting his own defence. And from this point

16 onwards how Mr. Hasanovic, for example, is dealt with this morning, that is

17 now a matter for submissions by Mr. Krajisnik. We are here to assist, we

18 will give information, we will give any assistance requested, but it is not

19 for us to conduct his case.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stewart, as sources you mentioned --

21 legal sources, Statutes and the Rules and the directives, and you made

22 reference to Rule 20. What perhaps is missing in your analysis is the case

23 law developed before this Tribunal.

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Because it all seems to turn around the issue of

Page 13404

1 the right of the defendant to defend himself, whether or not through

2 counsel. That's, I think, the basic point we are at. And, of course,

3 there's case law about this. There's also case law -- and I just quote.

4 First of all, the Milosevic Chamber, which said that "The Trial Chamber has

5 also emphasised its view" -- and that is how it appears in the Appeals

6 Chamber decision -- "The Trial Chamber has also emphasised its view that

7 the right to defend oneself in person is not absolute."

8 And, as a matter of fact, although under totally different

9 circumstances - I'm fully aware of that - the Appeals Chamber has reviewed

10 the way in which the Trial Chamber in the Milosevic case has exercised its

11 discretion, discretion saying that under specific circumstances the Appeals

12 Chamber does not accept as an absolute choice -- and I'm not saying that

13 this would be in this case. I'm just saying that it's not a matter of

14 receiving a statement that someone wants to represent himself and then say,

15 Okay, that's the end of the matter, that there still might be -- it might

16 be necessary to give some consideration whether the exercise of the right

17 to defend yourself would meet any limits in this specific circumstance.

18 I'm not saying it does; I'm not saying it does not. But therefore I ask

19 your attention for the case law.

20 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, may I say immediately then, Your

21 Honour, with respect, we are in 100 per cent agreement. In the limited

22 time available, we have, of course, considered the case law. And we have

23 read the Milosevic decision that Your Honour refers to. And it is

24 precisely because we have read and overnight absorbed, we hope, aspects of

25 that, that in fact, the re-drafting of the letter - I make no secret about

Page 13405

1 this - includes the insertion of the word "presumptive" in the first

2 paragraph to reflect the position of the Milosevic case. That's the force

3 of that sentence in my letter.

4 The consequence of the Milosevic case is, depending on whether

5 that approach is applicable on all the -- in all the circumstances of this

6 case, is that, yes, Your Honour we might be or some counsel - perhaps it's

7 one of us, perhaps it's both of us - some counsel may be reassigned in

8 accordance with those principles if they are held to be applicable.

9 Nevertheless, Your Honour, it would be our position that this analysis is -

10 - is nevertheless correct, that we have ceased to be Mr. Krajisnik's

11 counsel. But then the question of whether in accordance with the case law

12 in the circumstances of this case the presumptive right should then be

13 overwritten is a matter for mature consideration, not to be dealt with --

14 and we understand this to be the thrust of what Your Honour is saying. We

15 can't deal with it in -- in 30 seconds or 5 minutes or 10 minutes this

16 morning. Mr. Krajisnik has to have a full opportunity to understand and

17 make his submissions on that matter because in relation to this issue he

18 represents himself. We, on this -- well, it would be -- we have little

19 doubt that the Trial Chamber would be inviting and expecting our

20 submissions, even from our perspective that we're not his counsel, that

21 would be common sense apart from anything else, and the Prosecution would

22 have the usual opportunity to take whatever position they want to take and

23 make whatever submissions they want to make.

24 But, Your Honour, it means that we cannot decide this question

25 this morning, and therefore the position is that until there is a judicial

Page 13406

1 determination on this rather difficult question after it's been explored,

2 the position is that we are not Mr. Krajisnik's counsel this morning. We

3 cannot and should not proceed with the case. This matter and the status of

4 counsel and the position as to Mr. Krajisnik's representation of whether he

5 should or shouldn't be able to exercise his presumptive right as a right,

6 this has to be resolved first.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand your position.

8 Mr. Krajisnik, would you like to add anything to that? Because

9 there are two issues: The first issue is that you have expressed that you

10 would prefer to conduct your own defence and not be assisted by counsel.

11 That's the first issue. As I just explained, that is a matter on which

12 there are Rules. There is something in the Statutes. There's case law.

13 We focussed very much on the decision by the Appeals Chamber in the

14 Milosevic case. It will take us some time to consider that, certainly.

15 Apart from that we have not yet seen any written statement to that respect,

16 but I take it that this is a formality.

17 The second issue is whether or not we could proceed today with

18 the cross-examination of a witness who is present at this moment. Mr.

19 Stewart takes the position that he's not counsel anymore. And I did

20 understand that he interprets Rule 20 such that he's not under an

21 obligation to continue to act, since there is now a choice made by yourself

22 to represent yourself, and he does not consider this in terms of whether

23 this is a choice accepted or not accepted, but at least, as it stands now,

24 that he's not in a position or under a duty to cross-examine the witness.

25 I'd like to hear whether you have anything to add and also

Page 13407

1 especially whether you would agree that Mr. Stewart is not in a position to

2 deal with this witness today. So that's a very practical, possible

3 consequence of the present situation.

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, simply before Mr. Krajisnik answers

5 so that there's no misunderstanding by Mr. Krajisnik, which I might be

6 afraid of, there are two points: It isn't just that I'd say that I'm not

7 under a duty to cross-examine but, Your Honour, it goes further. I say

8 that I actually do not have, in effect, the right to and I have a duty not

9 to cross-examine actually and not to interfere.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I think I said in a position nor under a duty.

11 MR. STEWART: Yes. The second point about in a position, Your

12 Honour, that's where there might be an ambiguity. I should make it clear,

13 Your Honour, and I take the position we are responsible counsel. I am,

14 from a practical point of view, in a position to cross-examine Mr.

15 Hasanovic. Of course, I'm not coming to the Trial Chamber saying over -- I

16 decided last night I had no duties, I didn't bother to look at the stuff.

17 Of course I'm in a practical position to do it, and Mr. Krajisnik knows

18 that. But the separate question of whether I am in a position in the

19 technical sense, that's -- that, I think, is clear to Mr. Krajisnik, then,

20 as a -- as a different point.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Krajisnik.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm in your hands at

23 any rate. What I can say, for today's witness, I did not get any

24 materials, and I would like to ask you to kindly let me have those

25 documents so that I can prepare as soon as possible, because I don't want

Page 13408

1 to hold things up. But I would like everything to run smoothly and

2 swiftly.

3 As to my decision, I believe Mr. Stewart is quite right; he is

4 not here as my Defence counsel today. And since this is about me, I would

5 be very pleased if you could be kept up to date with everything, because I

6 think it all might be useful to the Trial Chamber. It is not just about

7 one single statement in a letter but a broader context.

8 So as to today's witness, I would like for his hearing to be

9 deferred. And if I could have the documents as soon as possible, I can

10 prepare quickly and cross-examine the witness.

11 If, on the other hand, you make a different decision, I will

12 have to go along with that decision, because I fully respect the decisions

13 of the Trial Chamber.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I now turn to the Prosecution, whether they have

15 any submissions to make, either on the -- I would say on the basic matter

16 or on the practical aspects.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, Your Honours, we are having this

19 discussion quite by surprise to the Office of the Prosecutor. We were

20 informed this morning of this position. We have made considerable

21 arrangements to have witnesses available here. Practically speaking,

22 they're available to testify; they've come from afar to testify. We think

23 the legal issue needs to be resolved as quickly as possible, lest there be

24 future problems associated with this case.

25 I don't know how long it would take Mr. Krajisnik to obtain

Page 13409

1 those materials and review those materials. I don't know if the Court, at

2 this point, could make an order or an appeal to Mr. Krajisnik to have Mr.

3 Stewart conduct the examination of this witness, but he is here. He's

4 ready to proceed; we're ready to proceed. We think that the legal issue

5 needs to be resolved as quickly as possible.

6 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, Mr. Krajisnik has made it clear

7 to me that he does not wish me to cross-examine this witness, just to

8 clarify that point. That -- that is his position. That was made very

9 clear to me in the discussion that we had within the last hour.

10 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, our position is this: We're not

11 entirely persuaded that Mr. Krajisnik's wish at this point trumps other

12 considerations that are made in respect of this witness. This witness has

13 been scheduled for a considerable period of time and has been

14 inconvenienced considerably to come to The Hague, as has the next witness.

15 And I recognise the right to represent oneself is not absolute. We have

16 either a deadlock, in which we cannot proceed today because of Mr.

17 Krajisnik's desires, or the Court can consider making an order to have

18 counsel assist, notwithstanding Mr. Krajisnik's desires in this case. I

19 can go no further, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

21 [Defence counsel confer]

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, the Chamber is also surprised by these

24 developments. We'll have to consider the matters, and we'll take some time

25 for that. We'll adjourn for half an hour or more.

Page 13410

1 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber, first of all, apologises for everyone

4 that had to wait for such a long time. On the other hand, the Chamber

5 hopes there is some understanding that the situation that came up this

6 morning is rather complex and does not allow to take quick decisions or to

7 deal with it in a way which is not justified by the complexity of the

8 situation.

9 First of all, the letter that we are informed that Mr. Krajisnik

10 sent to the Registry has not yet arrived; it has not yet been passed to the

11 Chamber. So, therefore, we first have to look at that letter in detail.

12 Meanwhile, since everyone was aware of the letter of Mr.

13 Stewart, it has been distributed. Mr. Krajisnik is aware of the content.

14 The Prosecution is aware of the content. Under those circumstances, since

15 copies were handed out to Madam Registrar, the Chamber has now knowledge of

16 the content of that letter.

17 The issue at stake is whether the wish, which, as we understand

18 it -- the wish of Mr. Krajisnik to represent himself stays within the

19 limits of that right, since the Appeals Chamber has decided that it's not

20 an unlimited right, so therefore the Chamber will have to decide whether or

21 not this self-representation is within the acceptable exercise, within the

22 limits of the exercise of that right.

23 The Chamber will not give that decision at this very moment. It

24 is a decision which has huge implications for everyone, for the

25 Prosecution, for Registry, for the Defence, for the accused.

Page 13411

1 The Chamber expects to take a decision on that not later than

2 tomorrow evening. The Chamber would like the parties to make themselves

3 available in case the Chamber would have further questions in relation to

4 the wish expressed by Mr. Krajisnik either on the basis of the letter,

5 which we have not seen until now, either as to what extent this is a fully

6 informed decision taken by Mr. Krajisnik. But whatever questions we would

7 have, we would like to ask the parties to make themselves available

8 tomorrow morning, unless we receive any further information about the

9 dentist who will treat Mr. Krajisnik tomorrow morning. Last time we could

10 start at 9.30, so we take it that this will be the same for tomorrow,

11 Thursday.

12 So therefore, the parties should be available on from 9.30.

13 The parties should also be prepared to continue the case by next

14 Friday. That means that the next witness would then be called and be

15 cross-examined by the Defence on next Friday.

16 The Chamber has been quite hesitant even to grant this time

17 until Friday because whatever the outcome of this will be, it will not be

18 one that could possibly disrupt the further conduct of this trial.

19 Nevertheless, we thought that we would need the time, so it's not a

20 concession to grant further time to the Defence, whatever shape it may take

21 next Friday, but the Chamber needed the time to prepare a decision and

22 thought it would not be wise to continue before such a decision had been

23 reached.

24 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning 9.30.

25 Yes, Mr. Stewart.

Page 13412

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm just going to ask this. By "next

2 Friday," it's clear from what Your Honour is saying that Your Honour means

3 the day after tomorrow.


5 MR. STEWART: This -- this Friday, the -- whatever day it is.

6 The -- the other thing is this, Your Honour: We respectfully

7 endorse Your Honour's comment that this has huge implications for a whole

8 range of -- of people, as mentioned, including, as it happens, Defence

9 counsel, who in this situation, we do have and are entitled to have our own

10 interests, Your Honour.


12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour said that it's proposed to reach a

13 decision on this tomorrow and that you may have further questions. But,

14 Your Honour, there's also the question of whether the opportunity is to be

15 given to make full submissions on this very important point.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the Chamber is confronted with the question

17 whether the exercise of the right, as included in the letter by Mr.

18 Krajisnik, is within the limits acceptable for the Chamber. Of course,

19 there are other matters, such as what could be expected from Defence

20 counsel once they have ceased to function as such, whether there would be

21 any remuneration for that. I can imagine a lot of questions. We should

22 clearly distinguish between those questions that directly regard the

23 Chamber and the ones regarding the Registry.

24 MR. STEWART: Yes. Your Honour may I say straight away, I have,

25 I hope, in my head - which not everybody can see, of course - but in my

Page 13413

1 head I have that distinction, myself, clear and would try to keep it as

2 clear as possible and would try to deal -- render unto Caesar and deal with

3 the Registry in relation to the matters that concern the Registry, and the

4 Trial Chamber in the matters that concern the Trial Chamber, and

5 remuneration, at least in the first and one hopes in the last place, is a

6 matter to be dealt with the Registry.

7 But, Your Honour, the -- the nub issue which we see, which in

8 effect is the application of those principles at least considered in the

9 Milosevic case, which is how far in the particular circumstances one should

10 impinge upon the presumptuous rights of the accused -- bless His Honour

11 Judge Canivell -- how far one should impinge upon that right, that's a

12 judicial matter affecting a whole range of people on which it is in

13 accordance with normal principles essential, we submit, that there is the

14 opportunity for full representation by all affected.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider that. But at least it sounds

16 reasonable that the consequences of a decision in which you'd be required

17 to at least -- it would be expected that you'd continue to provide whatever

18 services that, it certainly is something that directly affects you as well,

19 so therefore --

20 MR. STEWART: Yes. Your Honour, the question of -- may I just

21 say in a nutshell, the question of what might happen, then, that's not

22 really the primary concern, although that has to be thrashed out. But may

23 I just say, then, Your Honour without going into the submissions, the

24 position of counsel assigned, as in the Milosevic case, is fundamentally

25 different from the position of counsel assigned as Ms. Loukas and I were.

Page 13414

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course.

2 MR. STEWART: The whole -- the whole question, Your Honour, we -

3 - we do suggest the whole question does require full submissions before any

4 - and it is a judicial decision - before any judicial decision is reached.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, I cannot decide for myself.

6 MR. STEWART: No, absolutely Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber must do that and the Chamber will

8 consider that. And of course you will be informed about the position of

9 the Chamber by tomorrow morning as well.

10 MR. STEWART: And we'll be available, Your Honour. Of course.


12 MR. STEWART: As requested.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Any further issue? Then we'll adjourn until

14 tomorrow morning, 9.30, in the same courtroom.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.01 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of

17 May, 2005, at 9.30 a.m.