1 Friday, 27 May 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.40 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Before I give an opportunity to the Prosecution to call its next
10 witness, I'd like to deliver a decision. But before doing so, I'll wait
11 until the text is distributed to the booth.
12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, while that's happening, may I
13 reintroduce Mr. Andrej Jonovic. I'm delighted to say he's returned to the
14 fold. The prodigal son returns.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. STEWART: He's been on the team all this time; it's just
17 that he's been away to a place called London. But we're delighted to --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, some people say London is the place for me,
19 isn't it?
20 MR. STEWART: It has been said, Your Honour. I feel it
22 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome.
23 Then I'd like to deliver a decision. It is a decision on
24 Witness Berko Zecevic. It's a decision on Witness Berko Zecevic pursuant
25 to Rule 92 bis.
1 Witness Zecevic is part of the fifth batch of 92 bis witnesses.
2 The Chamber's decision with regard to this fifth batch will be issued early
3 next week, but a decision regarding Mr. Zecevic has had to be prioritised
4 since the Prosecution indicated that the witness would be available for
5 cross-examination early next week if, of course, the Chamber would decide
6 to call him for cross-examination.
7 In accordance with both the Defence and the Prosecution
8 submissions, the Chamber has decided to admit the requested material into
9 evidence on the condition that the witness appears for cross-examination.
10 The Defence's proposed redactions to the witness statement are not
11 necessary, since the witness will be available for cross-examination.
12 However, the last two paragraphs of the witness statement will not be
13 admitted into evidence and must be redacted.
14 The Prosecution agreed to the suggestion made by the Defence not
15 to admit these last two paragraphs.
16 This concludes the Chamber's decision on Witness Berko Zecevic.
17 Then, Mr. Margetts, are you ready to call your next witness, who
18 appears as a 92 bis witness, for cross-examination?
19 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. And there are no protective
20 measures for this witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures.
22 MR. MARGETTS: And it's the witness Bilal Hasanovic.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. MARGETTS: Which is reference 82.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it, then, that you'll put just the
1 questions necessary to introduce the material. Yes, of course there's no
2 pseudonym sheet, but I take it that you want to confront him with the
3 statement, then, first and then give him to the Defence for cross-
5 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Hasanovic
7 into the courtroom.
8 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, there's just one matter, and that is
9 there are some contextual documents. I don't know whether the Court would
10 like to receive those prior to the witness's evidence or subsequently.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It depends a bit on what it is and how important it
12 is for the Chamber to have a look at it before we hear the testimony.
13 MR. MARGETTS: The documents are documents prepared by the Serb
14 authorities in the municipality, and they may spark some area of inquiry
15 from Your Honours. That's the only reason I raised it at this stage. From
16 the Prosecution's perspective, we're content either --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. MARGETTS: -- to introduce it earlier or later.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I take it that you've seen the list of
20 contextual documents from which I do understand that two out of ten are
21 already in evidence. That's P529, tab 322, and P455. Will there be --
22 could we expect any objections to this material?
23 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Then they could be distributed,
25 Mr. Margetts.
1 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. -- at least, I take it, Mr.
4 Hasanovic. Before you give evidence in this court, you're required to make
5 a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and
6 nothing but the truth. The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher,
7 and I'd like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated, Mr.
12 WITNESS: BILAL HASANOVIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, you have been called mainly to be
15 cross-examined by the Defence, where the Chamber has admitted into evidence
16 some statements you've given, but first some questions will be put to you
17 by Mr. Margetts, counsel for the Prosecution, in relation to those
19 Mr. Margetts, please proceed.
20 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. If we can just attend to
21 the distribution of the documents, as well.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Numbers will be assigned at a later stage.
23 You may proceed, Mr. Margetts.
24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if the witness could be presented
25 with a copy of his ICTY statements of 27 June 1997 and 8 November 2001.
1 These documents have been tendered to the Registrar as part of the 92 bis
2 package in CD format.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That would be, Madam Registrar ...?
4 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number for the statement dated 8th
5 of November, 2001, will be Prosecution Exhibit P742. The witness statement
6 dated 13 and 27 June 1997 will be Prosecution Exhibit P742A.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 MR. MARGETTS: If Mr. Hasanovic could be shown the 1997
10 Examined by Mr. Margetts:
11 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, since you've arrived in The Hague, have you had
12 the opportunity to review this 1997 statement you provided to the ICTY?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could I refer you to page 3 of the statement, where you refer to
15 the persons who were appointed to regional courts in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
16 and you state that eight out of the ten regional courts were chaired by
17 Serbs. Do you wish to correct that statement, and should that reference,
18 in fact, be to the fact that eight out of the ten regional courts had
19 presidents or public prosecutors who were Serbs?
20 A. Well, in principle this statement is correct. I wasn't going
21 into whether there was one additional person there or one person less, but
22 more -- this is more or less correct, since this information was published
23 in the press at the time.
24 Q. Can I refer you to page 6 of your statement, and in particular to
25 the paragraph that starts: "On the 6th of May, Rajko Koprivica," and
1 continues. And at line 5 of that statement -- of that paragraph, you state
2 that you were asked to go to Sarajevo. Do you wish to correct that
3 reference? And if so, what should that read?
4 A. Instead of "they asked me," it should read "they insisted that I
5 go," or one should perhaps even say that "they ordered me to go."
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hasanovic. Apart from those two corrections, is
7 the content of that 1997 statement true and correct in every particular?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. STEWART: Well, I thought it had been amended by the
10 subsequent statement.
11 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. Mr. Stewart is perfectly correct, and in
12 fact my question -- I'll withdraw the question, if I could, and refer the
13 witness to the statement of 8 November 2001.
14 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, could you refer to the statement of 8 November
15 2001, wherein various corrections to your 1997 statement are set out.
16 If I could ask you the question again: The 1997 statement that
17 you've just reviewed, and in addition this 2001 statement, do they
18 together, and also the corrections that we've just referred to in court, do
19 they together set out your statement in -- correctly?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, whilst you're referring to this statement from 2001, could I
22 refer you to the lists -- list of mosques that appears in this 2001
23 statement. Apart from the mosques listed there, were there any other
24 mosques that were destroyed in Vogosca?
25 A. Yes. The mosque in Svrake is not listed here, in the village of
1 Svrake, which is part of Semizovac.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hasanovic.
3 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, that concludes my questions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Margetts.
5 Mr. Stewart, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?
6 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, the Defence will you cross-examine
9 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, unfortunately I did omit to read
10 out the 92 bis summary, and my apologies for that, but if I could be given
11 the opportunity to do that now.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hasanovic, Mr. Margetts will just read a
13 summary of your statement, the statement which has been read by this
14 Chamber. But since the public might not understand what the cross-
15 examination is about, if we -- they have got no idea on the content of your
16 statement. That's the reason why we read it out. It's not your statement,
17 the statement is the one that's on paper.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
19 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 In 1990, Professor Hasanovic was elected president of the
21 Vogosca municipality. In 1991, around 56 per cent of the population in
22 Vogosca was Muslim.
23 In March 1992, the SDS delegates left the Vogosca Municipal
24 Assembly without any substantial reasons or explanation. The SDS then
25 insisted that Vogosca municipality be divided along ethnic principles.
1 Although the Muslims knew that this could not be achieved, the Muslims
2 participated in negotiations relating to the division in order to gain more
3 time and delay any attack on Vogosca.
4 On 5 April 1992, the conflict in Sarajevo began. In the second
5 half of April, the police in Vogosca were divided.
6 On the 2nd of May, 1992, Semizovac and Svrake were surrounded and
7 shelled. On 4 May 1992, there was an air attack against Semizovac and
8 Svrake. The residents surrendered their weapons, and 472 people, including
9 women and children, were captured. The elderly people and women and
10 children were released after two or three days; however, 200 men were kept
11 in the barracks at Semizovac.
12 On the 6th of May, 1992, Serb representatives, including Rajko
13 Koprivica, approached Professor Hasanovic and demanded that he cross the
14 front lines and attempt to find nine Serbs who had been captured by Muslim
15 forces. They said that they would exchange the captured Muslims in
16 Semizovac for these nine Serbs. On two occasions, Professor Hasanovic
17 attempted to find the captured Serbs without success. Jovan Tintor stated
18 that if anything happened to these nine Serbs, then he would kill all the
19 Muslims in Vogosca.
20 On the 17th of May, 1992, Professor Hasanovic was informed that
21 his life was in danger, and he fled the municipality.
22 217 Muslims have been reported missing from the Vogosca
23 municipality; of those, 117 bodies have been exhumed. 52 others are known
24 to have been killed, and 48 are still considered missing. Most of the
25 Muslim people from Vogosca left the municipality.
1 Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Margetts.
3 Then, Mr. Stewart, you may proceed with your cross-examination.
4 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart:
6 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, after the November 1990 elections, the position
7 was this, wasn't it, that the SDA won 18 seats in the Municipality
8 Assembly, didn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The SDS, 15.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the others took 18 seats.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that -- those others, one might broadly call them opposition,
15 those 18, they operated as a bloc under the leadership of a Mr. Lazovic.
16 That's right, isn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what was the composition of that bloc of 18 members, in terms
19 of party, nationality?
20 A. Your Honours, as far as I can now remember, nine or ten
21 opposition deputies were of Serbian nationality; whereas, all the others
22 were Muslims, Yugoslavs, et cetera.
23 Q. And you -- you say in your statement - this is paragraph 7 - that
24 -- you refer to Mr. Koprivica as the SDS leader for Vogosca and the
25 president of the Executive Board. Mr. Koprivica died last year, didn't he?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Well, whether it was last year or within the last couple of
3 years, do you know whether Mr. Koprivica has died?
4 A. I don't know. This is the first time I've heard about this.
5 Q. And you say anyway that you and he had a great deal to do with
6 one another, he being the president of the Executive Board.
7 The issues at the time from after the election in November 1990
8 through 1991, included in particular the conflict in Croatia. That's
9 correct, isn't it?
10 A. The conflict in Croatia was one of the issues, among other
11 things, but that was not the main subject of discussion.
12 Q. What was the main subject of discussion, then, between you and
13 Mr. Koprivica?
14 A. The main subject of our discussions concerned issues dealt with
15 by the Vogosca Municipal Assembly. Since we were the individuals with the
16 greatest responsibilities in the Municipal Assembly, and there were really
17 quite a lot of problems, quite a lot of issues, these are the subjects that
18 we would most frequently discuss. Naturally, sometimes there were certain
19 political issues that were discussed, but they were not discussed as
21 Q. Now, you say that following the elections, the policy -- there
22 was a division of functions within the municipal government. You -- you've
23 said -- this is paragraph 9 of your statement -- that it was only the
24 leading governmental functions which were divided according to party
25 agreement and inside other municipality mercantile, commercial, and
1 financial institutions in Vogosca, the Serbs were in the majority, and
2 you've included in that by a correction administrative institutions.
3 For example, Mr. Hasanovic, is it correct that of the five
4 school directors in Vogosca, four were Muslims and one was -- classified
5 himself or herself as a Yugoslav?
6 A. I can't remember that exactly now. If that is what I've said,
7 then that is correct, that as far as the division of leading functions is
8 concerned in the municipality itself, this was carried out on the basis of
9 an agreement between the SDA and the SDS. As far as other officials and
10 other posts in the Municipal Assembly are concerned, well, these positions
11 were not divided; the staff remained the same. And as far as I can
12 remember, two-thirds of the officials were of Serbian nationality and one-
13 third, roughly speaking, were Muslims -- or rather, Croats.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, before we continue, you're referring
15 to, I take it at least, to a numbered copy of the statement.
16 MR. STEWART: Well --
17 JUDGE ORIE: At least the paragraphs are numbered. The Chamber
18 has been provided with numbered copies for quite some time, but it seems
19 that policy has changed again. It was very helpful to have numbers.
20 Mr. Margetts, is there any reason why we got an unnumbered copy?
21 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I think the thinking was that with
22 the 89(F) statements, the numbered statements were provided, but with the
23 92 bis statements that has not always been the case.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say the originals were tendered. That's
1 Mr. Stewart, could you please refer to pages and paragraphs on
2 those pages so that the Chamber is better able to follow the cross-
4 MR. STEWART: Well, of course I will, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. STEWART: I must say I'm slightly amazed that there should
7 have been this change of policy. It was such an obvious practical help to
8 everybody. I hope we shall revert immediately to the practice of having
9 paragraph-numbered statements at all times.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's proceed at this moment.
11 MR. STEWART: Will we be doing that, Your Honour? It's helpful
12 to the Defence, as well as the Trial Chamber. Your Honour, I'm -- I'm
13 asking whether that will be the practice, because it is --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, I've drawn the attention to it that it's
15 helpful, and I take it that whoever is responsible for it will take care
16 that we'll proceed in the most practical way.
17 MR. MARGETTS: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But we're not going to interrupt at this moment.
19 I've asked the attention for it, and let's now proceed.
20 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.
21 MR. STEWART:
22 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, I didn't want to be misleading or tricking you a
23 moment ago. You were under the impression, I think that, the point I put
24 to you about the five school directors actually came from your statement.
25 I want to make it clear it didn't. I'm not saying that you have said that.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 You -- you've said you didn't remember. Can we take it you wouldn't
2 dispute the proposition that five -- of the five school directors, four
3 were Muslims and one Yugoslav? You don't say it's not true?
4 A. I won't say that it's not true, but all I can say is that I don't
6 Q. You -- you say in your statement - and this is the first
7 paragraph at the top of page 3 - you say: "Even at that time" -- which
8 appears to be immediately after the November 1990 elections -- "Serbs used
9 to complain they were endangered by Bosniaks. They said they were
10 threatened by Bosniaks. They used to repeat this very often in that period
11 leading up to the aggression."
12 Mr. Hasanovic, was it -- did their complaints include not so
13 much physical aggression, but what they felt was unfair exploitation of the
14 Muslim or Bosniak majority in Vogosca? Whether you agree with it or not,
15 was that -- was that among their complaints?
16 A. I think that it is true to say that such complaints were without
17 foundation because the actual situation was quite different. I have
18 already said in my statement that the Serbs mostly had the majority in the
19 leading functions, in the economy, in the industry, not in all fields but
20 in many fields.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, I'd like to stop you. The question
22 was whether the complaints did include the feeling of unfair exploitation
23 and not just physical aggression. Your answer now explains why the
24 complaints were right or wrong, but the question was about what these
25 complaints included. And Mr. Stewart would like to hear from you whether
1 it was physical aggression or physical aggression only, the question was
2 not totally clear in that respect, but at least whether it also included an
3 expression or feeling of being treated unfairly without physical
4 aggression. Could you please answer that question, and may I ask you to
5 concentrate very much on the precise question put to you. Please proceed.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what I want to say
7 is that no acts of physical aggression were committed by the Bosniaks -- or
8 rather, the Muslims against the Serbs, but I believe that this was just a
9 pretext that the Serbian side used to carry out the act of aggression that
10 subsequently ensued. I don't know if I have been sufficiently clear.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No, you have not answered the question. The
12 question was not whether there was a good reason to complain about physical
13 aggression. The question was whether these complaints were just about
14 physical aggression, right or wrong - it might be the next question - or
15 whether these complaints also included complaints about unfair treatment,
16 exploitation, apart from any physical aggression. So we first are
17 focussing on what these complaints actually were, and perhaps we'll then
18 proceed with whether it had any grounds. But the first question is, Was it
19 just complaints about physical aggression or did it also include unfair
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that they complained
22 that they were in a position in which they had to hand over some of their
23 posts after the elections. They had to hand over some of their posts to
24 the Bosniaks and to the Croats. It wasn't a matter of complaining about
25 being threatened with acts of physical aggression.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's an answer to the question.
2 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
3 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. And is it also correct that shortly after the November 1990
5 elections the Muslim community began to build a mosque in contravention of
6 the zoning plan?
7 A. I'm not aware of any such information. I'm not aware of the fact
8 that the Muslim side started building a mosque, apart from one building in
9 the suburbs of Vogosca at that time or perhaps in 1991, they started
10 building that building. I don't know whether this was done illegally or
11 not; I believe that they had a relevant authorisation. But I do know that
12 at the Assembly we reached an agreement. And since there was no Orthodox
13 church in Vogosca at the time, we agreed to have an Orthodox church built
14 in Vogosca and to have a mosque built in the town of Vogosca, since we
15 didn't have a church and we didn't have a mosque in the town of Vogosca.
16 This decision was taken at one Assembly session. Both decisions were taken
17 at the same Assembly session.
18 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, whether actually, then, it was in contravention of
19 the zoning plan, is it correct that there was a complaint by the Serb
20 community that a mosque was being built by the Muslim -- obviously by the
21 Muslim community in contravention of the zoning plan?
22 A. I do not know that. I don't know what they've complained, but I
23 really don't know what building it could have referred to except for this
24 building that I've mentioned that was -- that the construction had started
25 at that time. But it is a very small building in one of the suburbs,
1 whereas all the other buildings were already in existence except for that
2 one church and one mosque that I've referred to earlier.
3 Q. Was there also a plan to build an Islamic centre in the village
4 of Bradici?
5 A. It's not an Islamic centre. It was just a small mosque, a
6 regular small mosque.
7 Q. Was there a complaint by the Serb community that that was being
8 built illegally?
9 A. I can't recall at this moment whether they complained or not, but
10 the fact that the construction work on that facility did start at that time
11 probably might have been the reason. I mean, this building work started in
12 this one part of the town of Vogosca and somebody must have noticed it, and
13 they might have wondered, How come are they starting to build here now and
14 there was nothing there before. And as to whether there were any documents
15 there and whether there was anyone from the Executive Council presided over
16 by Mr. Koprivica, they could perhaps tell you, because I had no insight
17 into all the documentation at the Municipality of Vogosca.
18 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, is it correct that on the 1st of March, 1992,
19 Muslims set up barricades at Kobilja Glava in the municipality of Vogosca?
20 A. I don't know of such barricades, but it is possible that
21 something resembling barricades, some kind of checkpoints might have been
22 there, but I'm not aware of it.
23 Q. Are you aware that at or very close to that time members of two
24 groups - one called, known as the Green Berets and the other known as the
25 Patriotic League - began to check documents, personal identification, and
1 so on, of Serbs moving around the municipality?
2 A. I think that such groupings did indeed exist. But as far as I
3 know, they checked everybody's documents, of all citizens moving around in
4 the area of Sarajevo.
5 Q. In the particular area of Kobilja Glava, then, you say that
6 members of the Green Berets and the Patriotic League were indiscriminately
7 checking documents of Serbs and Muslims, do you?
8 A. I suppose so.
9 Q. Do you know so or do you suppose so?
10 A. I suppose so. I was not present in the course of such acts.
11 Q. Did you receive or hear of any complaints by Serbs that they were
12 being harassed or discriminated against in this respect by members of the
13 Green Berets and the Patriotic League?
14 A. I can't remember now.
15 Q. You say - and this is the third complete paragraph on page 3 of
16 your statement - as a -- it appears to be a fairly general proposition, the
17 proposition after the elections, the last two sentences. You say: "We
18 were very careful not to create a sort of frustration," -- that was in
19 balancing posts -- "so we tried to resolve everything with discussions and
20 agreements. I believe we really succeeded in that."
21 Mr. Hasanovic, your perception there that you had succeeded in
22 resolving everything with discussions and agreements, was that perception
23 shared by the Serb community?
24 A. I think so, at least on the basis of their statements.
25 Q. Did there come a point, then, at which that perception -- that
1 was not the perception of the Serb community and it was clear that they did
2 not regard everything as resolved by discussion and agreement?
3 A. As to the distribution of roles, I don't think there were any
4 problems there. Problems started cropping up later on after the SDS
5 members left the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca.
6 Q. So what date are we talking about there, then? March 1992?
7 A. I think it was March. I really can't give you a reliable date
8 there, but I think it was March.
9 Q. Do you remember that on the 1st of March a young Muslim boy, a
10 Kenan Demirovic was unhappily killed in Kobilja Glava?
11 A. Kenan Demirovic? Yes. Yes, I do remember that.
12 Q. And that the Serb community held the view that he had been killed
13 -- not deliberately murdered, but he had in fact been killed by Muslim
14 fire? That -- that was their view, wasn't it?
15 A. I remember that event to a certain extent, and I think that the
16 comments coming from the Muslim side were exactly the opposite. That is to
17 say, to the effect that this young man had been killed by Serbs at close
18 range, since there were Serb houses very close to that place, and then they
19 opened fire from those houses in the vicinity, and then he was killed.
20 Probably it is extremely difficult to establish the absolute truth about
21 the event.
22 Q. Well, Mr. Hasanovic, I'm going to say straight away I'm not going
23 to put for your agreement some definitive view on this, but the position is
24 this, wasn't it, that there was -- there was at the very least some
25 reasonable ground for the Serb suspicion that he had been killed by Muslim
1 fire because he was walking through an area where Muslims with weapons were
2 posted, and there was fire from weapons in the area that he was passing
3 through? That's right, isn't it?
4 A. All these are assumptions. And as to the factual truth, well, I
5 think at the time it was extremely difficult to establish that. So both
6 sides stuck to their opinion, and probably it was the background to a
7 certain amount of tension that started mounting between the Serb and the
8 Muslim side.
9 Q. Well, Mr. Hasanovic, I want to get to the nub on this one. The
10 Muslims blamed the Serbs for the killing of this boy; the Serbs blamed the
11 Muslims. Probably nobody will ever know. Is that correct?
12 A. I agree.
13 Q. And it did enormously raise tensions, didn't it, between the two
15 A. Yes, there was a certain amount of tension. I wouldn't say
16 "enormous tension," but there was some considerable tension because of
18 Q. Well, the young boy was buried two days later, on the 3rd of
19 March, and shortly after that Muslims conducted an artillery attack on
20 parts of Vogosca, Blagovac, Hotonj, Krivoglavci. Correct?
21 A. I don't know about that. This is the first time I've heard of
23 Q. And very shortly after barricades were set up at the beginning of
24 March by the Muslims. The Muslims demanded the dismissal of a number of
25 Serbs from their offices, including Rajko Koprivica. That's correct, isn't
1 it? Just a reminder, he was the president of the Executive Board.
2 A. There was no official request, in that sense, from the
3 representatives of the Muslim community at the Municipal Assembly of
4 Vogosca. There might have been some individual voices calling for that,
5 but I'm really not aware of that. And I mean, in the last analysis, why
6 would Koprivica be held accountable for an accident like that, which could
7 not have been checked and the facts could not have been established with
8 100 per cent certainty?
9 But if I may add, the barricades you are referring to at Kobilja
10 Glava were simply a response to the barricades set up by Serbs on the 1st
11 of March around the municipality of Vogosca at both exits, in the direction
12 of Sarajevo and Zenica. They set up those barricades there and they
13 remained in place throughout the war.
14 Q. Isn't there on this as well, Mr. Hasanovic, an issue who put up
15 barricades first and who was responding to whose barricades? Isn't that
16 essentially the position?
17 A. I think that to a considerable extent this provides us with an
18 answer to a number of questions or issues which arose later on, precisely
19 after the setting up of those barricades on the 1st of March and the well-
20 known referendum on the occasion of which the citizens of Vogosca voted in
21 favour of a sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was
22 precisely at that time --
23 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, if you don't mind, I would like to stick to the
24 sequence according to my questions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, before we -- we are close to a time
1 for a break, but I'd like to ask you, Mr. Hasanovic: You're now giving
2 your opinion on barricades: one in the direction of Sarajevo, at one end of
3 the municipality, and the others on the other side of that municipality.
4 You were asked earlier the following question: Mr. Hasanovic, is it
5 correct that on the 1st of March, 1992, Muslims set up barricades at
6 Kobilja Glava in the municipality of Vogosca? Your answer then was: "I
7 don't know of such barricades, but it is possible that something resembling
8 barricades, some kind of checkpoints, might have been there, but I am not
9 aware of it."
10 It's not easy to reconcile that answer with what you just told
11 us, that there were barricades at the one end of the municipality in the
12 direction of Sarajevo, Kobilja Glava, and at the other end. Would it not
13 have been proper at the question to say, I'm aware that there were
14 barricades but they were, as you know, told us, erected in response of
15 barricades I -- erected somewhere else by the Serbs, rather than saying at
16 the end, "I'm not aware of it"? Because it now turns out that, at least,
17 you have some awareness of barricades, whether or not in response to other
18 barricades. May I ask you, may I direct you to, in answer to questions, to
19 tell us if asked about barricades what you know about them.
20 We'll have a break until 11.00, and I'd like you to think this
21 over during the break.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.
25 Oh, the witness is not in yet. Could you, Madam Usher, escort
1 Mr. Hasanovic into the courtroom.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
5 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, just to round off from where His Honour's
7 questions left the matter immediately before the break, whatever the
8 reasons, can the Trial Chamber now take it that you do in fact know that
9 Muslim barricades were set up in the vicinity of Kobilja Glava on the 1st
10 of March, 1992?
11 A. Your Honours, it is possible that there might have been a slight
12 lack of precision in my answer because I'm making a distinction between the
13 checkpoints and the barricades. In other words, the checkpoint -- well, a
14 checkpoint is a place where you might have a place being manned by a number
15 of people, armed or unarmed, checking out the passenger and transport
16 movements. On the other hand, barricades are an obstacle to movement,
17 something represented by lorries or some other technical or military
18 equipment. Such a barricade existed as you went out from Vogosca to
19 Hanicovac [phoen], and I had to go through there, through that barricade
20 when it was set up. There were lorries and such like there. And as to the
21 exit road from Vogosca, there wasn't a barricade of that sort, but it was a
22 kind of checkpoint, such a checkpoint which I don't call a barricade, was
23 also set up at Kobilja Glava.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Hasanovic --
25 MR. STEWART:
1 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, let's stick with precision for the moment
2 then. The answer that you gave, as quoted from the transcript by His
3 Honour, had been: "I don't know of such barricades, but it was possible
4 that something resembling barricades, some kind of checkpoints, might have
5 been there, but I'm not aware of it." So it was quite clear you were
6 telling the Trial Chamber that you were not aware of either barricades or
7 checkpoints. But just to clarify now with precision, you are now saying
8 something different, you'd accept, that you were aware of some sort of
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I'd like to return to the matter I was asking you about, then,
12 about the question of dismissal of -- well, particularly Rajko Koprivica.
13 You said that you were not aware of any official request. You did suggest
14 there might have been some, let me call it, unofficial request. So again,
15 I'm going to just press you for a little precision here, Mr. Hasanovic.
16 Are you aware -- were you aware in March 1992 of any form of request by the
17 Serb community in Vogosca - I beg your pardon - any form of request by the
18 Muslim community for the dismissal of Mr. Koprivica as president of the
19 Executive Committee?
20 A. I can't remember any request of that nature.
21 Q. To perhaps jog your memory, do you recall a suggestion that Mr.
22 Koprivica should be removed and replaced by the same Mr. Miro Lazovic
23 [phoen] that was mentioned earlier in the course of this hearing this
25 A. Such a request simply could not be taken into consideration since
1 Mr. Koprivica and Miro Lazovic were from different political parties.
2 Q. Well, wasn't that --
3 A. And affiliations.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] -- Mr. Hasanovic? Wasn't that
5 precisely the point, that the Muslim community were suggesting that Mr.
6 Koprivica, an SDS member, should be removed and replaced by Mr. Lazovic,
7 who was in the opposition group?
8 A. Let me just stress once again; I can't remember. It might have
9 been the case, but I don't know at what level, from what side, but I
10 believe that such a request would have been illogical and unjustified, at
11 least at that stage.
12 Q. Well --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, did you ever hear about such a
14 request, formal, informal, whatever level? Did you ever hear someone
15 saying that such a step should be taken?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't remember that
17 now. Not at all.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But you are giving a lot of -- you say I've never
19 heard about a formal request, then you say it might have been there, then
20 you say, I do not know what level. That's all quite logical for someone
21 who is at least aware that something of that kind has happened. Otherwise,
22 you just might say I've never heard about it. But you're giving a lot of
23 explanation, which suggests, at least, that the thought that such a thing
24 would have happened is not entirely strange to you. So I'd like you just
25 to ask -- I mean, there's nothing wrong or right on it, but I'd just like
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to know whether you ever heard, whether you have any knowledge, direct or
2 indirect, of anyone insisting on such a step to be taken.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I must reiterate once
4 again, I don't remember that. But having said that, I can't rule out
5 anything like that having happened.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Of course no one could rule out such a thing. You
7 were asked about what you heard, what you saw, what you are aware of, and
8 not to rule out anything you did not hear, you did not observe, you have
9 not heard of.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
11 MR. STEWART:
12 Q. Do you agree, Mr. Hasanovic, that the climate in Vogosca at the
13 time, March 1992, was such that if any such suggestion was made, it would
14 have provoked a -- a vigorous reaction from the Serb deputies in the
15 Municipal Assembly, wouldn't it?
16 A. I don't know what situation you have in mind.
17 Q. Well, Mr. Hasanovic, you were there. The situation I had in
18 mind, just to clarify, was the position with whatever difficulties there
19 were in Vogosca in March 1992. The -- the Serbs would have reacted
20 strongly to such a suggestion, wouldn't they?
21 A. [No interpretation]
22 Q. Pardon? I thought I heard you say "yes" in your own language,
23 Witness, but perhaps --
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear anything.
25 MR. STEWART: I think it was rather faint.
1 Q. Did you -- can you confirm you had answered my question. I had
2 heard you answer my question "da." Did Your Honour hear that as well?
3 Because I --
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I heard. And I also hear now that the
6 witness confirms it.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
8 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Of course, Mr. Hasanovic, so that there's no confusion, I am
10 putting to you that it did happen and there was such a vigorous reaction.
11 Does it follow from what you've said that you have no recollection of any
12 such vigorous reaction by the Serb deputies?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. In your statement - and this is the first complete paragraph at
15 page 4 - you say: "The first big conflict inside the Vogosca Municipal
16 Assembly was in March of 1992. The delegates from the SDS party left the
17 Assembly session without any reason or explanation." So just for the
18 moment, just keep that in mind.
19 The next paragraph, the first sentence, you say: "The SDS gave
20 some reasons for leaving the Municipal Assembly."
21 Now, I don't want to be unfair to you, Mr. Hasanovic. When we
22 take together what you're saying there, you are saying that they did give
23 some reasons, but you go on to say as far as you can remember, they weren't
24 at all important reasons. That's what you've said. So can we start with
25 your agreeing that they did in fact give some reasons?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And whether you regard them as important, whether you regarded
3 them as important or not at the time, what reasons did they give?
4 A. First of all, those are reasons of a political nature,
5 considering that the SDS party members, who were also members of the
6 Assembly, Municipal Assembly, had informed us that they got instructions
7 from their leadership, I don't know whether the party leadership or some
8 other body, I am not sure, that they had to leave the Municipal Assembly of
9 Vogosca. That was the main reason.
10 As to whether it was a justified reason or not, I wouldn't be
11 able to say, but that was the essence of the matter.
12 As far as I can remember, they did not dwell on it too much, but
13 I believe it was the key reason put forward. They got instructions from
15 Q. So in your statement where you say the SDS gave some reasons for
16 leaving the Municipal Assembly, but as far as you can remember they were
17 not at all important reasons. So when you gave your statement you regarded
18 the fact that the local deputies had received instructions from somewhere
19 above as not important; is that right?
20 A. I think that the Assembly of both Bosnia and Herzegovina and of
21 Vogosca was based on the Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that
22 according to the Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina, those reasons were
23 not essential, considering the fact that those were requests put forward by
24 one ethnic community whose attitude at that particular time was not based
25 on the provisions of the Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
1 Q. Did the SDS deputies in Vogosca give any local reasons for
2 leaving the Municipal Assembly?
3 A. I can't remember any local requests.
4 Q. So when in your statement you referred to some reasons, and not
5 all important reasons, the "some reasons" is -- is just that single basic
6 reason of some sort of instructions from above; is it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what you refer to in that same paragraph, the second complete
9 paragraph on page 4 of your statement, "a lot of discussions held on the
10 level of Yugoslavia about constitution of new country," the -- now, Mr.
11 Hasanovic, we've heard lots of evidence in this trial already that the
12 simple position was, wasn't it, the simplified position, that the -- the
13 Serbs didn't wish Bosnia and Herzegovina to leave Yugoslavia, did they?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And was that -- whereas, the Muslim nation took a -- an opposite
16 stance, didn't they?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that difference was reflected or mirrored as a difference
19 between the communities on the local Vogosca level as well, wasn't it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You say in the next paragraph - that's the third complete
22 paragraph on page 4 of your statement - that "In March 1992 was when the
23 SDS insisted we physically divide Vogosca municipality between the Bosniak
24 side and the Serb side. In the end, the municipality wasn't divided, but
25 they insisted on having discussions on the topic, forming one committee
1 from the SDA party and one for the SDS."
2 Mr. Hasanovic, the insistence on having discussions on the
3 topic, that was a perfectly reasonable and sensible way to approach the
4 issue, wasn't it?
5 A. Presumably the Serb side, on the basis of those claims, wanted to
6 achieve certain political goals. First of all, the division of Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina, starting with the division of municipal territories, which was
8 something which we could not in principle agree to, but we accepted to hold
9 talks. We wanted to find out what it was that the other side was insisting
11 Q. Well, what I'm putting to you, Mr. Hasanovic, consistently with
12 what you've just said is that the insistence of having discussions about it
13 was entirely sensible and reasonable, wasn't it?
14 A. A discussion, yes.
15 Q. And, in fact, you say Your Honours in the next paragraph, you
16 say: "In a certain formal way, I supported that discussion." What -- when
17 you say "in a certain formal way," Mr. Hasanovic, is -- is the position
18 that you did support the idea of at least having a discussion?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then you say: "In principle we accepted their energetic
21 insistence on the division." We can take it, can we, that "we" is Muslim
22 community and "their" energetic is Serbs?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So in principle, you accepted their insistence on the division.
25 Are you saying that your acceptance was, in fact, not your true view but
1 was a position adopted by you ostensibly, the position you presented to the
3 A. Yes, Your Honour. I feel I need to clarify this point. On a
4 number of occasions representatives of the Serb side came to see me in my
5 office, Slavko Jovanovic in particular, who was my predecessor as the
6 president of the Municipal Assembly, and he tended to accuse me very often
7 that I would be the one to blame if anything happened because we refused to
8 talk about the division. It happened on a number of occasions. And within
9 the SDA party we made the decision to accept the idea of talks to find out
10 what the Serb side was after and to find out whether there was any common
11 ground at all or not. That was our attitude, and on the basis of that
12 attitude we went along with the idea of those talks, and we set up a
13 committee which participated in this entire procedure.
14 Q. When you refer to "three conditions" that you set down, the
15 first, just seeking clarification: "We wanted to agree on arbitration, to
16 arbitrating case of disputes in the division. We suggested the Supreme
17 Court or a United Nations court." That was -- that condition had in mind
18 arbitration by the Supreme Court or a United Nations court in relation to
19 the division of Vogosca, did it?
20 A. Yes, that concerned the division of Vogosca.
21 Q. That was a serious suggestion, was it, that a United Nations
22 court might arbitrate on division of Vogosca?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Your second condition - and that's in the next complete
25 paragraph; it's the fifth complete paragraph on that page - was for "The
1 SDS leadership to give us guarantees." And you're talking about the local
2 SDS leadership in Vogosca there, aren't you, or are you? Which SDS
3 leadership are you talking about there?
4 A. I'm referring to both the local and republican SDS leadership.
5 We requested to be informed of the official position of the BH SDS with
6 regard to that matter, with regard to the issue as to whether the SDS
7 within Bosnia and Herzegovina would agree to having municipalities divided
8 in that manner, Vogosca and other municipalities in Bosnia and Herzegovina,
9 and naturally we did not receive any such agreement from them.
10 Q. So that was a decision that you were imposing, but it obviously
11 wasn't a condition that the local Serb leadership could deliver on their
12 own, could they?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And your third condition, that "if the Cutilheiro Plan was signed
15 we should bring our local agreements in line with that plan." Well, that
16 would have happened automatically, wouldn't it, because the -- do you agree
17 if the Cutilheiro Plan had been signed by all concerned, the Muslim
18 leadership and the SDS, the Serb leadership, that local agreements would
19 have had to have been brought into line with it?
20 A. Yes. In that case, these decisions would have been revoked.
21 Q. And then the next complete paragraph, the one that begins: "We
22 knew that actually such a division couldn't be made." In the second
23 sentence you say: "We wanted to gain time so that the inhabitants could
24 prepare themselves." When you say "we wanted to gain time so the
25 inhabitants could prepare themselves," both the "we" and the "inhabitants,"
1 you're talking about the Muslim community, aren't you?
2 A. Yes, and others, non-Serbs from the area.
3 Q. And "prepare themselves" includes preparation by way of arming,
4 doesn't it?
5 A. Above all, that meant moving the local inhabitants to safer
6 areas. That's what we had in mind.
7 Q. Which included arming, didn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Over the page in your statement - that's page 5 - it's the third
10 complete paragraph. You say: "They wanted" -- the Serbs -- "They wanted
11 to divide the police as well, even to accommodate the police in two
12 different buildings. That process started to develop more quickly. The
13 SDA really tried hard to avoid conflict as much as possible. It was a
14 general SDS policy at that time to divide the police. The requests came
15 from the top level down to the municipality."
16 My question here, Mr. Hasanovic, is: What -- what do you
17 personally, from your own direct knowledge, know, if anything, about such
18 requests coming from the top level down to the municipality?
19 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, apologies for interrupting. The
20 transcript appears to be correct at page 32, line 12, but I didn't hear the
21 reference to the "SDA" in that line. I heard a reference to the "SDS." I
22 think Mr. Stewart may have misspoken.
23 MR. STEWART: I could easily have done, but since my misspeaking
24 - thank you, Mr. Margetts - since my misspeaking has apparently been picked
25 up anyway --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether it is clear in the
2 translation for the witness, as well. So could you please, if there's any
3 doubt, and there seems to be, that at least it's clear to the witness.
4 MR. STEWART: Well, it's even possible that Mr. Margetts misheard
5 me, Your Honour, and I really correctly --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I --
7 MR. STEWART: I can't do anything about it now, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No, of course. Of course we could start listening
9 to the tapes, et cetera. But let's try to might clear. Yes. Yes. Yes.
10 No, you're invited to --
11 MR. STEWART: I'll repeat it, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. STEWART: I'll read it again with great care.
14 Q. The -- it's -- it says: "They wanted" -- that's the Serbs
15 obviously. "They wanted to divide the police as well, even to accommodate
16 the police in two different buildings. That process started to develop
17 more quickly. The SDA really tried hard to avoid conflict as much as
18 possible. It was a general SDS policy at that time to divide the police.
19 The requests came from the top level down to the municipality."
20 And my question was: What do you personally from your own
21 direct knowledge know, if anything, about such requests coming from the top
22 level down to the municipality?
23 A. Your Honours, I assume that these requests came from the top SDS
24 level, so the local body in Vogosca, and they pursued the policies of their
25 superiors, although we in the SDA tried to prevent such a division from
1 being carried out because this would have been the beginning of a very
2 difficult and chaotic situation, and even of a wartime situation. And that
3 is what I could tell you about that very briefly.
4 Q. Yes. Mr. Hasanovic --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hasanovic, would you please answer the
6 question. The question was what you know personally about these orders
7 coming from above. You started your answer saying: "Your Honours, I
8 assume that these requests came from the top SDS level." So what Mr.
9 Stewart is trying to find out is on what basis you assume that, whether you
10 have any personal knowledge of such orders, and how they reached from the
11 top to the lower levels. Could you please answer that question, because
12 that was the gist of the question.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course, we received such
14 information from the SDS, from representatives of the Serbian side in the
15 Vogosca Municipal Assembly, and that is the information that I had access
16 to and the information I can provide you with here.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Who told you? You say --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This information was provided by
19 SDS representatives who were in the Vogosca Municipal Assembly as well as
20 their representatives in the police, since the police commander in Vogosca
21 was a Serb.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do understand. Could you tell us which
23 representatives, SDS representatives, told you? All of them? One? Two?
24 Five? And who were they?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the names of
1 those individuals now, but I know that whenever we discussed this problem,
2 they always told us that they had received instructions from the top
3 because these requests weren't made at the are local level. These requests
4 were forwarded from the top, from the SDS, from the Assembly of the Serbian
5 People in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You also referred to SDS representatives in the
7 police, since the police, as you said -- since the police commander, as you
8 said, in Vogosca was a Serb. It's not clear here whether you heard that
9 from the police commander or from any other police officer.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, from the police commander.
11 In fact, I should clarify something else. The chief of the Secretariat of
12 the Interior in Vogosca municipality was a Bosniak; whereas, the police
13 commander was a Serb. That was the result of an agreement after the
14 elections. It was an agreement reached between the SDS and the SDA, and
15 numerous discussions were held in the police station and in the
16 municipality, other political representatives discussed these matters, and
17 these matters were discussed at sessions of the Assembly in the
18 municipality of Vogosca.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, again, quite simple: You said the
20 police commander. Who was that? And did he tell it to you, apart from
21 where he -- just a simple question: Did he say so? And who was that man?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember his name now.
23 That was a long time ago, 13 years ago.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you remember the name of the chief of the
25 Secretariat of the Interior who you said was a Bosniak? Do you remember
1 his name?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember his name either.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
4 MR. STEWART:
5 Q. Did you -- you knew of Mr. Krajisnik, did you, at that time, in
6 March 1992?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did you know what position he held in -- I'm not asking you
9 now, but then in March 1992, did you know what position Mr. Krajisnik held?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what was that position?
12 A. The president of the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
13 Q. Had you ever -- you'd never met Mr. Krajisnik, had you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Had you ever even seen him in person?
16 A. I had seen him on television.
17 Q. Do you know the -- do you know the nature of the charges against
18 Mr. Krajisnik in this case?
19 A. Your Honours, I don't know whether it's for me to now interpret
20 the reasons for which charges have been levelled against Mr. Krajisnik.
21 The Prosecutor is familiar with this --
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that's not the question.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, the question is whether you know
24 what Mr. Krajisnik is accused of, or at least the nature of what he is
25 accused of.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 If you know, please tell us. If you don't know, please tell us
2 as well.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With regard to what happened in
4 the course of the war in Vogosca itself, with regard to what the Serbian
5 forces did, either the military forces or the volunteer forces, the
6 persecution and the killing of individuals, the destruction of private
7 buildings, religious buildings in the municipality of Vogosca, with regard
8 to all these acts, well, I believe that this is what is at stake.
9 MR. STEWART:
10 Q. Well, Mr. Hasanovic, I'll preface what I'm saying by saying at no
11 point am I inviting you to express any opinion whatever on the validity of
12 the charges against Mr. Krajisnik. In fact, with His Honour's permission,
13 I'm distinctly asking you not to do that. There are only three people in
14 this room and indeed in the world who have the responsibility of making
15 those decisions, and those are Their Honours.
16 The -- but you -- you know, do you, that Mr. Krajisnik is one
17 person, at least, who is charged with being criminally responsible for a
18 wide range of actions in Bosnia and Herzegovina, particularly in 1992,
19 including killings, rapes, actions in detention camps, forced movements of
20 population. You've mentioned, of course, yes, destruction of mosques.
21 That -- that's -- that's enough to give the gist of the case against Mr.
22 Krajisnik. You -- you know, do you, that that's what this case is about?
23 A. Yes, roughly speaking, I do.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, when I say that Mr. Krajisnik is at least one
25 person who is alleged to be responsible for those, I'm going to invite you
1 -- no opinion to be expressed on the charges, Mr. Hasanovic, but I'm going
2 to invite you to tell the Trial Chamber what you, just in a couple of
3 sentences, what you understand to be the basis upon which Mr. Krajisnik is
4 alleged to be responsible for all those matters.
5 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we object to such an opinion being
6 sought from this witness.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, may I -- well, if necessary, Your
9 Honour, may I indicate why I ask it? It may not be necessary, Your Honour.
10 I -- if I can simply proceed.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No. You are not -- the objection is sustained.
12 This is not a question that can be put to the witness.
13 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, in that case, Your Honour, I
14 really must ask that I am allowed before an objection is sustained to give
15 some explanation as to why I ask the question. That's only elementary
17 JUDGE ORIE: Why is not of importance, Mr. Stewart.
18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it is. It is of critical importance,
19 Your Honour. It is of critical importance because it is a foundation and
20 an entirely legitimate foundation for reasons that I'm -- if I'm given the
21 opportunity of explaining to the Trial Chamber, I can explain to the Trial
22 Chamber, and it is quite wrong that I should be deprived of such an
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, the Chamber cannot imagine any reason
1 for such a question; therefore, at this moment the decision stands as it
2 is. But if there would be a total lack of imagination on the side of the
3 Chamber, you'll have an opportunity to explain that to the Chamber once the
4 witness prior to the next break has left the courtroom.
5 MR. STEWART: Well, thank you, Your Honour. I don't allege a
6 total lack of imagination, but I do, Your Honour, suggest a gap, which it
7 would be appropriate for me to take some steps to -- to fill.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
9 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, do you know that for a short time that Mr. Nikola
11 Koljevic was involved in local politics in Vogosca, a short time in the
12 middle of 1992?
13 A. In the middle of 1992, no, I'm not aware of that.
14 Q. When do you say that hostilities first broke out in Vogosca? And
15 I mean "hostilities" in an active physical sense, some form of fighting,
16 military, paramilitary hostilities.
17 A. Well, with the exception of certain incidents, armed conflict in
18 Vogosca broke out on the 2nd of May, 1992.
19 Q. Do you know that on April the 18th, near the Pretis factory in
20 Vogosca, there was a serious clash between Serb forces and Muslim
22 A. Yes, I'm aware of the fact. However, the forces were not
23 paramilitary ones, these were regular forces from the BH Territorial
25 Q. And who was their leader?
1 A. The commander of the TO at the time was Colonel Hasan Efendic.
2 He was officially the commander.
3 Q. And who was Jusuf Juka Prazina?
4 A. I have very little information about Juka Prazina. I know that
5 he had a unit of his own in Sarajevo. As to the kind of the unit
6 concerned, as to whether he was a TO member or whether he was some kind of
7 a maverick, I really don't know. But all I know is that he came to a
8 tragic end.
9 Q. Wasn't he the leader of a Muslim paramilitary group?
10 A. Where exactly? Are you referring to the town of Sarajevo or --
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
12 A. No.
13 Q. Well, wasn't he the leader of a paramilitary group of Muslims
14 that was involved in this clash near the Pretis factory on April the 18th,
16 A. As far as I know, no, he wasn't.
17 Q. You had heard of him obviously from your answer.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you hear of him in March and April 1992?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do the following names mean anything to you, Mr. Hasanovic:
22 Zeljko Dzeremaja and Dalija Vladusic [phoen]?
23 A. No, I'm not familiar with those names.
24 Q. Branko and Ranko Sikiras?
25 A. Yes, I know those surnames.
1 Q. Milorad and Ranko Spasojevic?
2 A. I think that I came across these surnames in some sort of written
4 Q. Milan Pajdak?
5 A. Likewise.
6 Q. Jovo Zivkovic?
7 A. Likewise.
8 Q. Those are nine names that I have given you, Mr. Hasanovic. Are
9 they not the same nine Serbs referred to on page 6 of your statement in the
10 very long paragraph on that page that begins: "On May the 6th, Rajko
11 Koprivica, president of the Executive Council, Slavko Jovanovic, and one or
12 two other persons came to my house, told me that the BiH Territorial
13 Defence controlling the territory between Kobilja Glava and Hotonj had
14 captured nine Serbs on May the 4th"? Those are those nine Serbs, aren't
16 A. Yes. But I can't remember all the names. I can only remember
17 Sikiras. And as for the others, well, I can remember them when one reads
18 out their names for me.
19 Q. Do you now accept that those are, so far as you can remember,
20 those nine Serbs that are talked about in several paragraphs, passages, in
21 your statement?
22 A. Yes, I have a list at home, a list of names.
23 Q. Is one of them the brother of Jovan Tintor's wife?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Which one?
1 A. I don't know which one.
2 Q. On page 7 of your statement, second paragraph, you say: "There
3 were a" -- I think you slightly corrected -- "There were several improvised
4 prisons in the city" -- we're talking about Sarajevo -- "And I couldn't
5 find any names on any of those lists. I did see the name of the brother
6 of" -- it says "Jovo Tintor" but it's the same Tintor -- "Jovo Tintor's
7 wife, though." So you saw the name, but you're now saying you don't know
8 the name?
9 A. I don't recall making a statement to the effect that I had come
10 across the name of Jovan Tintor's brother-in-law anywhere.
11 Q. You better be given the B/C/S version of your statement, then,
12 please, Mr. Hasanovic. You may already have it in hand.
13 MR. STEWART: I don't know whether anybody on the Prosecution
14 side can help us to steer the witness very quickly to the equivalent
16 MR. MARGETTS: We'll make our best efforts.
17 MR. STEWART:
18 Q. You should be able to find somewhere on about the fifth/sixth
19 page of the statement a very long paragraph that starts: "On May the 6th,
20 Rajko Koprivica." Do you -- can you find that to start with? It's about
21 20 lines --
22 JUDGE ORIE: What about page 6, the big paragraph in the middle?
23 MR. STEWART: Well, that's the one I'm -- that's precisely the
24 one I'm talking about, Your Honour. But please remember the witness has
25 the B/C/S version, where the page numbering may be different.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the B/C/S version.
2 MR. STEWART: Oh, I'm so sorry, Your Honour. You have the
3 advantage. I just didn't know what page it was on.
4 Q. It's page 6, Mr. Hasanovic. And the particular paragraph -- the
5 particular paragraph is at the top of page 7. We found it now, Your
6 Honour, from Mr. Krajisnik.
7 So the first paragraph on page 7 of the B/C/S is the one that --
8 precisely the one that we're looking at.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. STEWART:
11 Q. And you see -- I'm now reading from the English, of course, Mr.
12 Hasanovic, which you're getting in translation, but it should match:
13 "There were several improvised prisons in the city, and I couldn't find any
14 names on any of those lists. I did see the name of the brother of" -- it
15 says "Jovo Tintor," but that's -- can we confirm that's the same person?
16 That's -- that's Jovan Tintor, isn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That's -- so at that time you knew the name because you saw it.
19 So in that list of nine names that I've given you, are you saying now that
20 you don't recognise any of those nine names as being the name of the
21 brother of Jovan Tintor?
22 A. Yes. That name was indeed on the list of nine names that I was
23 given by the representatives of the Serb side at Vogosca. And at the time,
24 I knew that man's name, his first name and his surname, but I can't
25 remember now. I do remember that there was a list and that there was a
1 family name, Sikiras there. So it was a list that was given to me at a
2 later stage by the Serb side because the representatives of the Territorial
3 Defence Staff from Kobilja Glava and Vogosca, they were unable to give me
4 the names. I got the names the next day from the Serb representatives at
5 Vogosca. And I did not say that I found this gentleman that we are talking
6 about somewhere on another list, a list of those arrested in the city
7 itself, in Sarajevo, I mean.
8 Q. And you -- and you met Mr. Tintor personally over this issue,
9 didn't you?
10 A. Yes. There was a meeting with Tintor.
11 Q. And he was angry and upset about his brother-in-law, wasn't he?
12 A. First of all, I remember that Tintor was on that committee for
13 the talks that we had between the SDS and SDA at Vogosca, and I think those
14 talks started after the 18th of April, 1992, but I can't remember exactly
15 whether I had an actual meeting with him at that time. There were several
16 of them from the Serb group at Vogosca that I was in touch with. As to
17 whether Tintor was a part of that group or not, I can't confirm at this
18 stage. But I do know later on when I left Vogosca I had a phone
19 conversation with him in this respect.
20 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, I asked you really a very simple question, that --
21 I said: "Mr. Tintor was angry and upset about his brother-in-law, wasn't
22 he"? Can I -- may I have an answer simply to that question?
23 A. I answered.
24 Q. Well --
25 A. Because obviously through other representatives of the Serb side
1 I did hear that he was angry about it, which is altogether normal and
2 natural. And as to whether I actually did see him and had an actual
3 conversation with him in person at that stage, I can't remember.
4 Q. Who was Boro Pradic?
5 A. What I know about that man was that he was in charge of some kind
6 of independent group at Vogosca, some kind of voluntary group, and in a way
7 he was spreading fear and terror within Vogosca itself. But as far as I
8 can remember, he was also somehow neutral in terms of -- or independent in
9 his actions. So in a way he instilled fear not only into Serbs but into
10 Muslims, as well. And I can confirm that because of the fact that on one
11 day - I can't remember what date it was - he shot at the police commander
12 in Vogosca, who was a Serb. He wounded him, I think in his leg, left or
13 right. And he was lying in the street for as long as half an hour in front
14 of the police station at Vogosca, according to my information, and nobody
15 dared approach him. Afterwards he was taken to hospital in Sarajevo at --
16 he was at Kosevo Hospital, and I visited him there.
17 Q. He was -- he was the leader of a bunch of paramilitaries who were
18 engaged in terrorising out-of-control activity under nobody in particular's
19 direction, wasn't he?
20 A. As to whether he was being under anyone's control or not, I don't
21 know, but the wounding of the police commander seems to indicate that he
22 was indeed independent, because otherwise what sense would it make to wound
23 somebody who's on your side. But as to whether he was a part of any
24 superimposed structure above himself, I don't know.
25 Q. When did you visit him in hospital?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Visit who, actually?
2 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand the testimony to be that the one
4 that was shot at was --
5 MR. STEWART: Oh, I'm so sorry. I beg your pardon. I --
6 Q. When did you visit the -- the police -- the wounded police
7 commander in hospital?
8 A. I can't remember the date. After the wounding. The next day or
9 two days later. I can't remember.
10 Q. And do you remember that Boro Pradic himself was killed?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In the autumn of 1992?
13 A. I don't know when.
14 Q. And is it correct that the group that was under his leadership
15 had already been dissolved before his death?
16 A. I'm not aware of that.
17 Q. Do you -- do you recall that there were in Vogosca throughout the
18 period of hostilities what are known as weekend fighters?
19 A. I don't know about that.
20 Q. And what I'm putting to you: These are people who -- who came
21 from outside, would come in as the weekend implies, but would come in for
22 two or three days perhaps, cause trouble, perpetrate aggression, and then
23 go away again. Do you recall anything like that?
24 A. I heard of such groupings, but as to how they came, in what way,
25 with whose approval, I don't know. Because someone would have had to give
1 them the go-ahead, to first of all come and then leave.
2 Q. But you say in your own statement - this is the top of page 6 of
3 the English, the second paragraph - "Things were very confused." Now,
4 that's an understatement, Mr. Hasanovic, isn't it? Things were extremely
5 confused, disruptive -- or disrupted, with all sorts of fighting going on,
6 with all sorts of groups, Muslims and Serbs in Vogosca in April/May/June
7 1992. That was the position, wasn't it?
8 A. Well, I'm referring to the situation up until the 2nd of May,
9 1992. Up until then, in the area of the municipality of Vogosca, there was
10 no open armed conflict. The situation was extremely tense and very chaotic
11 and difficult. People had stopped working in factories, and the industry
12 was quite well-developed there, and many people used to work in the
13 industry, but everything came to a halt, and people would just sit in the
14 park and comment on what was going on.
15 Q. Do you know that at the same time that those nine Serbs were
16 captured, on May the 4th, that Muslim forces or -- or around the same time
17 Muslim forces had entered an unprotected village of Grahoviste and killed
18 20 civilian Serbs, mostly women?
19 A. All I know is that those nine citizens of Serb nationality were
20 arrested at the village of Grahoviste. And as to the information that
21 either -- before or after the armed forces, the Territorial Defence, or I
22 don't know who else, entered that village and killed 20 people of Serb
23 nationality, is something I had never heard of.
24 Q. And you don't personally know about those nine men being killed;
25 is that correct?
1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. You've never seen any of them ever again, have you?
3 A. I didn't know any of them in person.
4 Q. Have you ever heard of any of them still being alive since 1992?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Vogosca had its telephone lines and electricity cut off for a
7 substantial period of 1992, didn't it?
8 A. There were occasional power cuts, and that refers to both
9 electricity and the cutting of telephone lines. But afterwards, ever more
10 often actually, it tended to last longer, especially after March.
11 Throughout that period, those power cuts tended to get longer and longer.
12 And on the 2nd of May, the situation was very critical when it came to
13 energy supplies, telephone lines and all that.
14 Q. Was the main water reservoir in -- for Vogosca in Kobilja Glava?
15 A. I don't know exactly. It might be wrong if I say either yes or
16 no. I know that for the most part probably Vogosca got its water supplies
17 from the main source of the River Bosna, below Igman near Sarajevo. And to
18 a certain extent the supplies came from some minor sources in the vicinity
19 of Vogosca itself.
20 Q. There was a reservoir at Kobilja Glava, wasn't there?
21 A. In that case, there must be.
22 Q. Well, are you saying -- you were president of this municipality.
23 Are you saying you don't know whether there was a reservoir in Kobilja
25 A. It is more of a political role, the president of the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Municipality, and the executive body is the actual Executive Committee
2 headed by Mr. Koprivica, and they were in charge with all these technical -
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]-- matters.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, do you know whether there was a
7 reservoir in Kobilja Glava?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
10 MR. STEWART:
11 Q. Was Kobilja Glava under Muslim control throughout the period of
12 hostilities in 1992?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Even if you don't know where there was the reservoir, do you know
15 anything about Muslims cutting off the water supply into any part of
16 Vogosca in 1992?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So as a result of the various answers you've given, if I suggest
19 to you that Muslims in control of Kobilja Glava cut off the water supply
20 from the main reservoir, as a result of all the answers you've given you
21 say, I don't know anything about that; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who was Ejup Demirovic?
24 A. I don't know.
25 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness speak up, please.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you can remind me a little bit,
2 jog my memory a bit, because I don't know.
3 MR. STEWART:
4 Q. All right. I'll jog your memory with this: He was the leader of
5 the forces that attacked the village of Grahoviste on the 4th of May, 1992.
6 Does that jog your memory?
7 A. I don't know who was the commander, but I do know who was the
8 commander of the Territorial Staff at Vogosca at the time. And who led
9 this particular group, I don't know. And this name, Demirovic, means
10 nothing to me.
11 Q. So this particular group that was led by somebody whose name you
12 don't know, you do at least know about that group?
13 A. I know of a group of Serbs who were arrested. And who was the
14 leader of that group, I do not know.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, could I just ask you how much time
16 you'd still need for the cross-examination.
17 MR. STEWART: I think about ten minutes perhaps, Your Honour,
18 something like that. It depends on the answers, as always, but something
19 in that order.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we would like to refer to a couple
22 of documents in re-examination, and that may provoke further questions from
23 the --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber very much would like to finish
25 with this witness today. We will have a short break, but I'd first like to
1 ask Madam Usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.
4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It's not entirely clear to the Chamber what the
6 line of questioning -- in what way the line of questioning in cross-
7 examination assists the Chamber. Are you establishing a different picture
8 as to the background of the conflict in Vogosca, or are you actually asking
9 the Chamber to consider that it was -- whatever, what happened in Vogosca
10 was in self-defence or was justified? It's rather unclear to the Chamber.
11 You've got one minute to briefly explain what the relevance of the line of
12 questioning is.
13 MR. STEWART: It's more the first than the second, Your Honour.
14 I can explain --
15 JUDGE ORIE: It's the background.
16 MR. STEWART: Yes. It's the ten-second answer, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: All right. Fine.
18 MR. STEWART: It's a legitimate background --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine. Thank you very much for that answer.
20 Then the next item is that you wanted to explain why you want to
21 ask the witness what he understood to be the basis upon which Mr. Krajisnik
22 was alleged to be responsible for all those matters. You have -- as I
23 said, the Chamber always considers the possibility that it lacks sufficient
24 imagination. You have one minute to explain that and we'll consider it
25 during the break.
1 MR. STEWART: Yes. Your Honour, it's this: The witness gave an
2 answer about orders or directions coming from the top in which he
3 specifically mentioned the Assembly, a point which he'd certainly not
4 mentioned in his statement. And, Your Honour, the purpose of my question
5 is to explore the witness's awareness that the Assembly -- or to the extent
6 to which the Assembly and Mr. Krajisnik's position in the Assembly
7 underlies this case and these charges against Mr. Krajisnik, because that
8 is absolutely capable of casting light on the reliability of the witness's
9 incorporation into his answer of a specific reference to the Assembly as
10 one of the places from which orders or directions from the top may have
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. STEWART: And that is directly relevant, Your Honour. The
14 witness's understanding in relation to that matter is -- is a clear
15 foundation of that entirely legitimate exploration of an answer he has
16 specifically given.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give me the line where the witness said
18 that the instructions came from the top so that I can find --
19 MR. STEWART: Yes. It will take a moment to find it because the
20 problem -- I had it there in front of me, Your Honour, when this came up.
21 It's now gone and my team are finding it. It was -- it was at that time
22 when -- immediately before that exchange. So it was about, I don't know,
23 half an hour ago or something like that.
24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we have two references where --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. MARGETTS: -- this matter was discussed. First page 27,
2 lines 1 to 13.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I see on page 35, lines 3 and 4, where it says:
4 "These requests were forwarded from the top, from the SDS, from the
5 Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina."
6 MR. STEWART: Yes. I think that's the reference almost simply
7 that I had in mind, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. STEWART: May I just look at it on my screen?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Page 35, line 4.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. STEWART: "These requests were forwarded from the top, from
13 the SDS, from the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that's precisely -- that's the very
17 point and the very passage that I was referring to.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that. Thank you for that.
19 Mr. Krajisnik, you've heard Mr. Stewart would need another ten
20 minutes approximately. Would you have any additional questions?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Stewart has
22 already asked me, and I told him that when he is finished I'll be pleased
23 if I have no further questions, but I am undecided to ask questions in case
24 anything is forgotten.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course you -- I can imagine that you do
1 not now know exactly whether, after 10 further minutes of cross-
2 examination, the situation is still the same.
3 Mr. Margetts, how much time would you need to --
4 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to present three documents
5 to the witness and -- and receive his comments. Probably 10 to 15 minutes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ten to fifteen minutes. Because the Chamber very
7 much would like to finish with this witness today.
8 We'll have a break of 20 minutes. We'll start again at ten
9 minutes to 1.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness
13 into the courtroom.
14 Mr. Stewart, you'll have another 10 minutes, of course,
15 depending on how it develops. And at the same time, the Chamber informs
16 you that you have made your point, that even if the witness does not give
17 many details, that violent clashes in the early stages were certainly not
18 the exclusive domain of one party. Yes?
19 MR. STEWART: And on the other matter, Your Honour?
20 JUDGE ORIE: On the other matter, the ruling stays as it is.
21 You may proceed.
22 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour. May I just pick up where
23 I was.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And also in the next 10 minutes there's no need to
25 go into any further detail on the matter I just mentioned, Mr. Stewart.
1 MR. STEWART: Well, on the answer at page 34, Your Honour, the -
2 - the answer which was the basis of my point, or did Your Honour mean
3 something else?
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, I was saying that there's no need to go much
5 further in the background during the next 10 minutes. And as far as the
6 other matter was concerned, the ruling that the objection was sustained has
7 not changed.
8 MR. STEWART: No, that's what I understood, Your Honour. I
9 wasn't proposing to go any further anyway in relation to the background
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine, then.
12 MR. STEWART: But I was understanding that Your Honour is not
13 now suggesting that I can't explore that answer at page 34.
14 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, when you were talking in your evidence about an
15 hour ago, perhaps it was, about local SDS Serb leaders in your municipality
16 receiving instructions from the top, you said: "These requests were
17 forwarded from the top, from the SDS, from the Assembly of the Serbian
18 People in Bosnia and Herzegovina." Now, are you saying that you remember
19 that somebody told you specifically that instructions or requests to local
20 Serb leaders in Vogosca had been received from the Assembly of the Serb
21 People in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
22 A. Your Honour, before I answer the question, if you will allow me,
23 I would like to go back a little. I just remembered the persons that you
24 asked me about.
25 MR. STEWART: [Previous translation continues] ... may I ask why
1 the witness should be granted permission to go back a little as opposed to
2 simply answering the question?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, if you would first answer that
4 question. But I did understand from what you said that something came into
5 your mind that was dealt with earlier and that it's now clear in your mind.
6 But please first answer the question, and then you'll come back to the
7 other matter.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We received this information from
9 SDS representatives; I can't remember the individuals who told me that. In
10 any case, we did receive reliable information from SDS representatives.
11 They told us that they were instructed to walk out from the Municipal
13 MR. STEWART:
14 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, what I'm asking --
15 JUDGE ORIE: That was not the question, Mr. Hasanovic.
16 MR. STEWART: May --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you could repeat the question, Mr. Stewart.
18 MR. STEWART: May --
19 JUDGE ORIE: But may I ask you to focus very much on what the
20 question is and to answer that question.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, with respect, I'll slightly rephrase
23 it and try to get it absolutely clear.
24 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, are you saying you remember that somebody told you
25 that a request or instruction had been received in Vogosca from the
1 Assembly of the Serb Republic?
2 A. No. I didn't mention the Assembly of the Serbian People in
3 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I may have mentioned that it was the top of the
4 leadership. However, SDS members told me that they had been instructed to
5 do that by their top leadership. But if we are talking about the Assembly,
6 then I believe that the instructions had come to them from the Assembly of
7 the Serbian People that had been established before that.
8 Q. What is the basis, the factual basis, of your belief that the
9 instructions had come from the Assembly?
10 A. The fact that SDS representatives told us those things in the
11 Municipal Assembly of Vogosca. I don't have any other information; I don't
12 have anything else to give you, no documents to that effect.
13 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, I'm inviting you to make things clear. In an
14 answer you gave just a moment ago, I asked you whether you were saying you
15 remembered that somebody told you a request or instruction had been
16 received in Vogosca from the Assembly. You answered that by saying, "No, I
17 didn't mention the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina. I may have mentioned it was the top of the leadership,"
19 which, if I'm allowed to suggest an understanding, seemed to make it clear
20 that it was top leadership generally and nothing specific about the
21 Assembly. Now you're saying, apparently, that the SDS representatives told
22 you something on which you based your belief that the instructions had come
23 from the Assembly. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, are you saying that you've --
24 you're just make some assumption or inference that top leadership included
25 the Assembly or that there is some specific factual basis for your belief
1 that instructions came from the Assembly? Which -- which of those is it?
2 Is it an assumption or an inference, or do you know something specific that
3 tells you that instructions came from the Assembly?
4 A. I don't have any other information apart from the information
5 that I've already shared with you, and this is what I base my opinion on.
6 Q. So --
7 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you: Did they tell you that it came
8 from the leadership?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they did tell us that it had
10 arrived from their leadership.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Did they give any further specification of that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We discussed the whole thing, but
13 the details of those discussions escape me at the moment. We were very
14 much interested in this issue of them walking out.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I just want to know whether during such
16 discussions or whether they gave any further details as that they received
17 instructions from the -- as you call it, the SDS leadership. Did they,
18 during these discussions, debate -- did they give any further details; yes
19 or no?
20 THE WITNESS: They told us that they had been given instructions
21 from the top. I don't recall any other details.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That covers the --
23 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Do you make a difference
1 between the instruction of the SDS and those in the leadership and the
2 higher members of the SDS, those in the higher echelons of the SDS? What
3 distinction do you make there?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there is a difference, that
5 the SDS is a political party and the Assembly is a legislative body, but
6 there's also coordination between these two bodies, given the fact that the
7 Assembly was the Assembly of the Serbian People. So it would be normal to
8 expect from the SDS, as a political body, to exert a certain influence on
9 the way decisions are made in the Assembly itself.
10 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, despite the injunction only very
11 rarely to intervene on Judge's questions -- but, Your Honour, may I say I'm
12 entitled to intervene when the answer is beyond the scope of what the
13 witness should procedural be giving evidence about.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to Judge Hanoteau to deal with the
15 matter. I do understand that he would like to continue.
16 Judge Hanoteau, you may do so.
17 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I do have an objection to the
18 answer as it's proceeding now on that basis. Of course --
19 JUDGE ORIE: This will be handled by Judge Hanoteau.
20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I would like for you to
21 clarify. You have just told us that the instructions came from the top; I
22 would like you to clarify this top. The top, when you say "the top," is
23 this the Assembly or is it the SDS party or is that one in the same thing
24 for you, when you say "the top"?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I include all of the
1 above, all of the bodies that you have mentioned.
2 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Does that mean that you mix the
3 two? When you say that the instructions came from the top, for you this is
4 both the SDS and the Assembly?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't claim for a fact that it
6 was either the SDS or the Assembly, but I believe that there was
7 coordination between the SDS and the Assembly when such decisions were in
8 question. As to who exactly sent these instructions down the line to the
9 lower-level bodies, I don't know. I can only assume. I believe that it
10 was the Assembly if the instruction was sent to the lower-level Assemblies.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: As a general rule in this courtroom, Mr. Stewart
14 and Mr. Harmon, whenever there's any intervening in the question of the
15 Judges, that will be dealt with by the Judge who is putting the question at
16 that moment to the witness. That is just as a general procedural
18 Here again, Mr. Stewart, there were a lot of beliefs and
19 assumptions in the last and there were also elements that say "I do not
20 know, but". Well, even at a certain moment, I noticed that "I can't claim
21 for a fact." That's clear language.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. STEWART: The -- Your Honour, I understand the signal, but I
24 was going to ask just one more question here.
25 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, so far as other people in Vogosca told you that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 they had received any communication from their top leadership, they didn't
2 tell you whether their top leadership in their minds meant this particular
3 organ or that particular organ or the Assembly or whatever organ of
4 Republika Srpska, did they?
5 A. It is quite possible that they told us at the time. However, as
6 I sit here, I can't remember. It was 13 years ago.
7 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, this might be the opportunity. You were a few
8 minutes ago going to say, I think, that you had recalled something about
9 those -- those men. That was another topic. I stopped you then, but this
10 might be the opportunity for you to come back to it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, when I invited you to first answer the
12 question of Mr. Stewart, you had something on your mind. Please share it
13 with us.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I was reminiscing on those
15 times, some names came back to me. I don't know whether that is important
16 at this moment. The police commander's name was Boro; I don't remember his
17 family name. And the chief of the Secretariat for Defence was Elvedin, and
18 I believe that his family name was Mehic. This is what I wanted to share
19 with you, the names that I wanted to give you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Any further questions, Mr. Stewart?
22 MR. STEWART: Yes. I'm nearly there, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. STEWART:
25 Q. Who was the commander of the TO, Territorial Defence, in Vogosca
1 in April 1992?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. In your statement, on the last page it is in the English version,
4 there's a paragraph that begins: "217 civilians from the municipality of
5 Vogosca." In fact, I think you've corrected the figure to 250. So it's
6 now "250 civilians from the --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- municipality of Vogosca have been reported missing as a result
9 of the ethnic cleansing."
10 Now, first of all, is it correct that the -- the reports or the
11 report is a report of a number of civilians missing, rather than a report
12 which includes the statement that it is a result of ethnic cleansing?
13 A. This information was published in a book, the book that was
14 published in 2001. And it describes the events in the territory of
15 Vogosca. The information had been collected by the Institute for the
16 Investigation of War Crimes based in Sarajevo, and this is a state
17 institution in Sarajevo.
18 Q. So what -- when you say in this bit of your statement that 250
19 civilians had been reported missing as a result of the ethnic cleansing,
20 what you're doing there is recording a report of which you are aware, as
21 opposed to your own actual knowledge.
22 A. No.
23 Q. That's -- you agree, do you --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, may I just -- the three professional
25 Judges on this Bench, if they are informed through a testimony about a
1 report where a certain number of people are missing, whether it says
2 "ethnic cleansing" or not, of course the Chamber will understand the
3 "missing" to be in the context of the events that happened in Vogosca. And
4 whether that is ethnic cleansing, yes or no, is of course not established
5 on the basis of a qualification given in such a report. The Chamber will
6 by itself consider whether that's the case, if at all relevant to establish
7 that this was ethnic cleansing or whether you should use other terms or
8 whatever. But I hope that you're confident that this Chamber will not, on
9 the basis of a qualification given in a report it has not yet even seen,
10 say, Well, ethnic cleansing because it says so.
11 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, indeed. And then this
12 witness's -- if you like, this witness's position is one further stage
13 removed. So -- so on that basis, Your Honour, I am sufficiently confident
14 not to explore that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. STEWART: If Your Honour just gives me one moment. I think
17 I'm there, but if I may just double-check.
18 Yes, I have no further questions, Your Honour. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.
20 Mr. Krajisnik, do you have any questions for the witness?
21 Because, Mr. Hasanovic, we allow Mr. Krajisnik, who is the accused in this
22 case, to ask additional questions to witnesses if there's any need to do
24 Mr. Krajisnik.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Although Mr. Stewart has examined
1 the witness quite thoroughly, I will take the opportunity and put several
2 questions to the witness, and I will try and leave some time for the Trial
3 Chamber as well, as well as the others.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Krajisnik.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Krajisnik:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Hasanovic. We are speaking
7 the same language, which you call Bosnian and I call Serbian, and could you
8 please make a break between my question and your answer so as to allow for
9 a better understanding in the courtroom.
10 I'll start with a somewhat odd question: At one point you said
11 - and you explained how you left Vogosca - and you said that you prayed to
12 God. And as a church-going person, could you please tell us whether you
13 now still believe that it was God who saved you and allowed you to leave
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. I'm glad to hear that.
17 Secondly, this makes me believe that you will answer my
18 questions truthfully. You know the late Mr. Izetbegovic. Did you read
19 this book of his?
20 A. No, I didn't.
21 Q. Do you know Mr. Halilovic, who is an indictee here, and are you
22 familiar with his crafty strategics?
23 A. No, I didn't read the book. I'm not familiar with that.
24 Q. Since you haven't read these books, I'm not going to ask you
25 about the contents of these books, but I would like to ask you something
1 about Mr. Izetbegovic, with all due respect to him.
2 When you joined the Presidency to ask for the nine kidnapped
3 Serbs, did you truly want to find them? Was that really your intention?
4 A. Yes, it was.
5 Q. You asked the president of the Commission of the Presidency
6 whether you would be able to find them. Are you convinced that they
7 answered you truly to the best of their knowledge that they didn't know
8 where these Serbs were?
9 A. I believe that they were honest when they said that.
10 Q. Very well, then. Just a small digression here. In our language,
11 we use the word "speculation," which is not a positive thing. In English,
12 that is asking for your opinion. So when I say "speculation", I'm not
13 negative. I am asking for your opinion.
14 I would like you to speculate and say that if you had had an
15 opportunity to talk to Mr. Izetbegovic at the time and if you had asked him
16 to help you ask these nine people, do you think that Mr. Izetbegovic would
17 have done that?
18 A. I am deeply convinced that he would have done that.
19 Q. Can you explain?
20 A. This is why: When I spoke to the members of the commission and
21 when I handed over the information to the Republican Commission for
22 Exchanges of the arrested and killed persons, I did address the office of
23 President Izetbegovic and his daughter, who was the head of his office. I
24 knew her personally because we had taught school.
25 Q. Could you please slow down for the interpreters.
1 A. And I asked her to get involved in the issue and to talk to
2 President Izetbegovic and other people and make sure that those people were
3 found as soon as possible.
4 Q. Again I'm calling for your speculation, that is, for your
5 opinion. Why do you think he didn't do that, although we both believe that
6 he would have done that if he could have? Why do you think he didn't find
7 those people?
8 A. I can't really speculate or anything. I can't assume anything.
9 I don't know whether he had any information about these people and to what
10 extent he took an interest. I really don't know.
11 Q. I do apologise. You said that you were sure that he would have
12 done his best to find them. So you assume that he would have tried to find
14 A. Since I am familiar with the ethical principles on the part of
15 Mr. Izetbegovic to the extent that I knew him, I believe that on his part
16 he would have done everything he could in order to find these people.
17 Q. May I put to you a question that I would like you to answer with
18 a yes or no: Are you telling me that Mr. Izetbegovic could not get at that
19 information because there were lots of prisons there, there was a general
20 state of chaos, there was a war going on, and he just could not get that
22 A. I can only assume --
23 Q. Yes, speculate. That's correct.
24 A. -- that through his cabinet - and they did it through the
25 competent state committee - insisted for those people to be found.
1 Q. But we're talking about 2 square kilometres here in Sarajevo.
2 It's a small area, maybe 3 or 4 perhaps. It really doesn't matter. Can
3 you confirm it?
4 A. Yeah, it's a bit more. I disagree. We have Ilidza and the city
5 hall and a bit -- it's much, much more than you are saying.
6 Q. Tell me how much.
7 A. I don't know. I can't speculate on that. It is not 100 square
9 Q. No. So could Mr. Izetbegovic know what was going on Kladusa,
10 Tuzla, and some other places if we are saying that he could not know what
11 was going on in Sarajevo.
12 A. What he could or could not know is something I can't tell you on
13 his behalf.
14 Q. All right, then.
15 And now, can you speculate on something else?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik --
17 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Do you know where is Vogosca?
19 May I just finish?
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, you may not finish. For the third or the
21 fourth time you clearly indicated in your question that you're calling for
22 speculation, and you asked questions on facts the witness is aware of, not
23 on speculations.
24 The fact is in relation to the matter you raised is the
25 following: The witness has testified - and it's in his statement - that he
1 sought to find out where the nine Serbs were, that he got the information
2 that they could not be located. The witness now in many questions has said
3 that he believed that a serious effort was made to locate them, and it
4 seems that you want to put to the witness that this might not be actually
5 what was done. But, of course, since it was not the witness who did it but
6 since it was only the witness who received that answer, there are limits in
7 putting to the witness that others had not done what the witness was told
8 they had done. Would you please keep that in mind.
9 Please proceed.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I believe that
11 the witness did what he says he did.
12 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Just one question in this respect: I was just trying to make a
14 comparison. Had Mr. Izetbegovic been sitting at Pale, would he have known
15 what the situation at Vogosca was? And that was my situation, and I
16 believe that you are going to give me a true assessment.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The only thing we could ask the witness, Mr.
18 Krajisnik, is the following: Whether the witness has any knowledge or any
19 reason to know whether Mr. Izetbegovic, if he was in Pale, whether he would
20 know what the situation in Vogosca was. It was -- it's, again, asking for
21 a lot of speculation. You are not entitled to do that.
22 Is it your view that Mr. Izetbegovic was in Pale, Mr. Krajisnik?
23 If not, then it's a hypothetical question, which does not assist the
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Momcilo Krajisnik was the one
1 who was in Pale. And my question is, when I started talking about what
2 happened in Sarajevo, I wanted the witness, since he is familiar with the
3 situation, to say - because I believe that in spite of and above and beyond
4 of the fact that he said that he would tell the truth, that he -- I wanted
5 him to tell us what he thought I would know what was happening in Vogosca
6 and other places. And I have one more question, because I don't want to
7 waste the Court's time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Put that next question to the witness. Mr.
9 Krajisnik, what you would have known or would not have known, the Chamber
10 will determine that on the basis of the evidence, and it does not assist
11 the Chamber to hear whether this witness thought it possible that someone
12 at Pale would know something happening at either, 5, 10, 15, 50, or 100
13 kilometres away. That is established and determined on the basis of
14 evidence, rather than on speculation by this witness.
15 Please put your next question to the witness.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Okay. I do apologise. It's two
17 questions, in fact.
18 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you know that in these two books -- have you heard of it, I
20 mean -- that they indicate that there were some proposals for exchanging
21 Srebrenica and Vogosca and Zepa?
22 A. I did hear rumours about it. I did not read it in these books,
23 because I haven't read the books, but I did hear about such ideas or such
25 Q. Thank you. One more question: You mentioned that you heard that
1 I was at Vogosca following an invitation from some people, and you saw
2 other people visiting Vogosca; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You were the president of the municipality. Have you ever
5 invited me, as the president of the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to
6 visit Vogosca?
7 A. No.
8 Q. I'm not asking you whether you believe me or not, but I mean,
9 those people who invited me were the ones who received my visits.
10 Just one more question: Who did you exactly see at Vogosca? At
11 what meeting? And in what capacity?
12 A. Apart from Mr. Ostojic, whom I saw in person - I don't know why
13 he was there - I did not see any other people, such as Mr. Koljevic, Mrs.
14 Plavsic, and some others. I simply received that information according to
15 which they occasionally visited Vogosca and were seen as guests in a
16 restaurant between Vogosca and Hotonj in the direction of Sarajevo to the
17 right. But I myself did not actually see them.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no
19 further questions. Because I do actually have quite a few questions, but
20 we don't have a lot of time, and I do thank the Trial Chamber.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.
22 Mr. Margetts, would you please keep in mind that we have a few
23 questions, as well.
24 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
25 If I could present three documents to the witness and if those
1 documents could be given exhibit numbers. The first document is a report
2 for --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: The document dated 06/03 1992 will be P744.
5 The document dated 13/03 1992 will be Prosecution Exhibit P745.
6 The third document, dated 12 November 1992, will be Prosecution
7 Exhibit P746.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
9 MR. MARGETTS: If Mr. Hasanovic could be shown the document
11 Re-examined by Mr. Margetts:
12 Q. This is a report in relation to the security information in
13 relation to events of the 1st of March, 2nd of March, 3rd, and 4th of March
14 in Sarajevo, and it's compiled by the State Security Service of Sarajevo.
15 Mr. Hasanovic, could you please refer to page 2 of the Bosnian
16 document, and that's the last paragraph at page 2, which in the English is
17 the first paragraph on page 3.
18 This entry in this report reads as follows, Mr. Hasanovic. It
19 says: "It was Serbs who first started setting up barricades, and the
20 largest number of them were set up in a very short time; namely, from 2300
21 hours on 1st of March to 7.30 on 2nd of March. As a reaction and response
22 to these barricades in the morning hours of the 2nd of March, Muslims also
23 set up barricades."
24 Is that consistent with your understanding of what occurred on
25 the late evening of the 1st of March and the early hours of the 2nd of
2 A. Yes. Your Honour, according to my information, it all tallies
3 with what is in the document; that is to say, that it was the Serbs who set
4 up the barricades first in reaction to the aforementioned referendum. And
5 secondly, those barricades or checkpoints - and I do know that there were
6 some barricades on the Muslim or Bosniak side, as well - were set up as a
7 result of the barricades having been set up by the Serb forces.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, I explained to the Defence that the
9 background information was, at that point, sufficiently dealt with. The
10 witness has testified that there were, whether we call it barricades or
11 checkpoints, on both sides of the city. There's really no need to go into
12 the matter again because it's not essential for this case whether one party
13 started at 12.00 at night and the other at 2.00 at night or it was just the
14 other way around. That's not essential, I take it also, for your case. So
15 please proceed.
16 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, in that instance, it may be more
17 appropriate, then, if these documents were introduced as contextual
18 documents. Obviously if we could be given an opportunity to draw the
19 Court's attention to those matters we consider relevant. But in light of
20 Your Honour's comments, it may not be necessary for this witness to -- to
21 respond to matters recorded in those documents and inform the Court whether
22 they are consistent or not with his observations of -- of events that took
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, consistency, of course, with his testimony
25 and with his statement, we can establish that ourselves. I mean, if a
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 witness testifies that a car is red, and if a report says that it was a red
2 car, then the consistency is really not something you would have to ask to
3 the witness in order to establish that.
4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's be very practical. I take it you have not
6 seen these documents before?
7 MR. STEWART: Well, they were handed to me this morning, Your
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. STEWART: But may I say we do not have any problem with the
11 suggestion because --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
13 MR. STEWART: -- we all know that this is just a device for
14 putting in documents to ask the witness about consistency.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. STEWART: And let's cut to the chase and get the documents
17 put straight in.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
19 MR. MARGETTS: And I thank the Defence for that observation.
20 And if we could proceed in that manner.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So what we'll do is these documents are now
22 tendered as contextual documents, and if there's any objection we'll hear
23 after the Defence has had sufficient time to study them.
24 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, I have an objection at some point, Your
5 Honour, but --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know what's practical. I would have
7 a few questions. Do you have any questions triggered by the -- well, the
8 almost-non-questions, but --
9 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, Your Honour. My observation doesn't --
10 it comes after the witness has gone. I'm so sorry.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would have a few questions.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you testified during these negotiations or
14 during these talks you had on whether or not to split up Vogosca that you
15 were trying to gain time, and you said it was mainly to find a safe place
16 for, could I say, your people, and then were specifically asked also
17 whether you needed time to arm the Muslims. You said yes, that was part of
18 it as well. Could you tell us, if so, how the Muslims did arm themselves
19 during this period.
20 A. Your Honour, that matter of arming the population is a very
21 complex issue. All I can say for the time being is that that was done on
22 the basis of purchases of a certain number of MTS, light armaments, light
23 weapons, rifles, ammunition, and so on, and it was done for the most part
24 through roundabout channels --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I --
1 A. And there were people somehow smuggling those weapons in, and the
2 weapons were rather expensive. The prices were quite steep.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me ask you: Could you give us a rough estimate
4 on how many rifles you obtained in this way to arm your local people.
5 A. I can't give you an assessment because I wasn't involved in that
6 at all.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You may have an impression anyhow, even if you're
8 not involved. I have impressions about a lot of things I'm not involved
10 A. I do have an estimate. In the area of Svrake and Semizovac,
11 there were about 200 rifles.
12 JUDGE ORIE: What was the heaviest kind of weaponry you managed
13 to obtain?
14 A. Rifles. We only had rifles, and hand grenades.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That means no mortars?
16 A. We did not have any initially, of course. And afterwards we
17 could get some, and we managed to take some.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you say "afterwards," what time frame are
19 you referring to?
20 A. Except -- I do apologise. When I say "later," what I mean is by
21 the end of April. Some of that type of weaponry was sent to us from the
22 nearby municipality of Visoko. So we had two mortars perhaps, and I don't
23 know how many thousands of bullets, and that's all. And as far as the
24 situation up until the 2nd of May was concerned, the municipality of
25 Vogosca was still in some way not included in these combat or war
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No hand-held rockets?
3 A. I don't recall that at all. That's a heavier type of weapon. I
4 don't think so.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Yes. I've got one question to you:
6 Did you ever learn anything about a relationship between Mr. Koprivica and
7 the SDS leadership?
8 A. Yes. Mr. Koprivica told me on several occasions and confirmed to
9 me that he met quite often with SDS representatives. He also told me that
10 he had quite a lot of contacts with Mr. Krajisnik. Krajisnik was a
11 neighbour of ours who lived very close to Vogosca, a few kilometres from
12 Vogosca actually.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And these contacts, did he further explain to you
14 the kind of contacts, the content of it?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Did Mr. Koprivica tell you this when you met with
17 him alone, or did he also say these kind of things in the presence of
19 A. I don't remember whether he met with him alone or in the presence
20 of others. I had quite regular contacts with Mr. Koprivica because our
21 offices were adjacent and our contacts involved our business contacts, and
22 in those contacts there were such conversations. Amongst other things, he
23 told me what the shape of the future Yugoslavia would be, and he said, "The
24 future shape of Yugoslavia would be determined by how far the Yugoslav
25 People's Army reached." And I remember those words very well, and I quote
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This is a rather general subject. You're
3 just mentioning the future of Yugoslavia. You did not mention this in your
4 earlier answers about relations with the leadership. May I take it that
5 these conversations you had with Mr. Koprivica did not say anything about
6 contacts with Mr. Krajisnik, in terms of contacts with SDS leadership?
7 A. I apologise. I do not quite understand your question.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps my question was not quite clear. You
9 told us that when the SDS party left the Municipal Assembly, that you were
10 told that they were told by their leadership to do so. May I take it that
11 in these conversations with Mr. Koprivica, not a similar relationship of
12 someone when he talks about the future of Yugoslavia, talking in terms of
13 what the leadership had in mind. Did he ever say anything about his
14 thoughts in relation to what the SDS leadership took as their position?
15 A. Yes. From conversations between the two sides, if I may say so,
16 one could conclude only that they had received instructions from their
17 leadership, from the top; I've already mentioned that. I don't think that
18 they would have done anything had they not received a request or an
19 instruction to that effect.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You say, "One could conclude only." On the basis
21 of what would you conclude such a thing?
22 A. On the basis of conversations of what they told us, their
23 statements. When we asked them why they were withdrawing from the
24 Assembly, what -- what the reason was, they could not give us any
25 justifiable reason that would be applicable to Vogosca municipality and
1 that would motivate them to walk out of the Assembly. And it is this fact
2 that tells me that, in addition to their statements, they also had received
3 instructions from their superiors.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'm now not talking any more about
5 leaving the Assembly but more in general terms, conversations you had with
6 Mr. Koprivica where he told you that he had a lot of contacts with Mr.
7 Krajisnik. Did in these conversations ever -- was there ever discussed the
8 specific, I would say, relation that you heard in the explanations that
9 were given to you about leaving the Assembly? So apart from that, whether
10 that ever in any other conversation with Mr. -- specifically with Mr.
11 Koprivica and specifically in relation to Mr. Krajisnik, whether that ever
12 came up.
13 A. As far as I can remember, we did not discuss anything --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 A. -- of that sort. He did not provide me with any information as
16 to what the topic of their conversation was. He only told me that they
17 talked on a regular basis, but he never mentioned what was discussed, and I
18 never insisted on him telling me what the topic of their discussion was.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to turn to private session for one second.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 13535-13538 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then is there any very urgent matter at this
25 moment? Because otherwise we'll adjourn. Another Court --
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any very urgent matter?
3 MR. HARMON: Yes, there is, Your Honour. Your Honour had given
4 us an instruction to distribute those dossiers by today.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. HARMON: We have those dossiers. We're prepared to
7 distribute those, and we can ask Monday for exhibit numbers on that. We
8 just want to inform the Court we're complying with a court order.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear. Does any party insist on
10 distributing them literally at this moment or that they'll be distributed
11 through the building?
12 MR. STEWART: We can live without them for several minutes, Your
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that has been settled.
15 Any other very urgent matter, Mr. Stewart?
16 MR. STEWART: Nothing, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn but not before having thanked
18 the interpreters.
19 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, apologies, but the move for
20 admission of exhibits for this witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we could do that on next Monday and not
22 ask any further patience from the interpreters and the technicians.
23 No, I thought you were about to join me in thanking the
24 interpreters, Mr. Margetts, and that's certainly what was on your mind, I
25 take it.
1 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. And I do join you in that, Your Honour.
2 MR. STEWART: Of course.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And I know Mr. Stewart --
4 MR. STEWART: So do I, Your Honour. Your Honour, it's implicit.
5 They know how much we appreciate them.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. STEWART: From time to time no doubt we should say it
9 JUDGE ORIE: And we also know that sometimes they have even more
10 understanding on Fridays than on any other days. I see at least some
11 smiles and some laughing.
12 Thank you very much. We'll adjourn until next Monday, Madam
13 Registrar, in the afternoon at quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day of
16 May, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.