Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15618

1 Friday, 1 July 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

9 Mr. Gaynor.

10 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, we'd like to begin the proceedings

11 with a brief oral application for protective measures.


13 MR. GAYNOR: I'll begin in open session and then I'll request

14 leave to go into private session for part of the application.

15 This is an application for protective measures for Witness KRAJ

16 165. We requested that he be permitted to testify with a pseudonym and

17 with facial distortion and in private session for those portions of his

18 testimony which will reveal identifying information. I'd like to refer

19 initially to the tests set up by Your Honours in your oral decisions on

20 the 13th of April and repeated on the 27th of April, 2005. Your Honours

21 said that in order to show a real risk that revealing the identity of a

22 witness could result in danger to that witness, there must be some

23 objective evidence. That objective evidence can be demonstrated through

24 such circumstances as a combination of the following three factors: 1,

25 the expected testimony of the witness may antagonise persons who continue

Page 15619

1 to reside in the territory in which the crimes were committed, for

2 example, by implicating those persons in crimes; 2, the prospective

3 witness or his or her family live in that territory, have property in the

4 territory, or have concrete plans to return to that territory; 3, a

5 general security situation which is unstable and is particularly

6 unfavourable to witnesses and the families of witnesses who appear before

7 the Tribunal.

8 In respect of the third limb of that test, we rely on the UNHCR

9 report of January 2005, which we've previously submitted to Your Honours,

10 and Your Honours have stated that that report states that "the climate in

11 Bosnia and Herzegovina remains unfavourable to persons who are resident

12 there or have family resident there and who wish to fully discharge their

13 duty to testify before the Tribunal."

14 Now, I'd now request to go into private session, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.

16 [Private session]

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Page 15620

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Page 15621

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14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber just has conveyed to the parties,

16 after having heard arguments for the protective measures sought by the

17 Prosecution, that it will give a decision as soon as possible, most

18 likely today, even if not yet a full reasoned decision.

19 Are you -- is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

20 The three of you -- Ms. Edgerton is new, so I take it, Ms. Edgerton, that

21 it will be you who's --

22 MR. GAYNOR: Ms. Richterova will be taking the next witness. Ms.

23 Edgerton and I will be excusing ourselves.


25 MR. JOSSE: Can I mention one matter, Your Honour.

Page 15622

1 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, Mr. Josse, welcome. I had not given

2 up the hope yet to have a wig in court, but unfortunately you don't wear

3 them in The Hague.

4 MR. JOSSE: I was desperate to take mine off, so being able to

5 represent the client without a wig is a real pleasure to me, I have to

6 say. Your Honour, Mr. Stewart asked me to hand out copies of the

7 document from the high representative that was mentioned yesterday.


9 MR. JOSSE: I've given one to Mr. Tieger and I have copies for

10 Your Honours and the rest of the Court.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That's the decision in view of the last witness, of

12 which Mr. Stewart would like to have the whole document presented.

13 Yes. Mr. Registrar, could you already assign a number to it. It

14 would be a Defence exhibit.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Defence Exhibit D44.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

17 Mr. Usher, could I ask you to escort the next witness.

18 Do we have protective measures?

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: No. He testifies without protective measures.


21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Tokaca.

23 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of

25 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a --

Page 15623

1 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated].

2 JUDGE ORIE: You have no translation? Is Mr. Tokaca on the right

3 channel? You are now. Mr. Usher, could you please --

4 Mr. Tokaca, before giving evidence I would like to invite you to

5 make the solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole

6 truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is in front of you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Tokaca.

10 You'll first be examined by Ms. Richterova, counsel for the

11 Prosecution. Please proceed, Ms. Richterova.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examined by Ms. Richterova:

15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tokaca. Would you be so kind and state your

16 full name and date and year of your birth.

17 A. My name is Mirsad Tokaca. My father's name was Smajo. I was

18 born on 28th July, 1954, in Sarajevo.

19 Q. With the Court's permission I would lead the witness through the

20 educational and occupational background very briefly.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I hear no objections, so please proceed.


23 Q. Mr. Tokaca --

24 MR. JOSSE: There is none.


Page 15624

1 Q. Is it correct that you obtained a diploma of the political

2 science faculty in Sarajevo? You also studied --

3 A. This is what I graduated from.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps it's practical if Ms. Richterova puts

5 to you all these data and whenever there's anything wrong, please

6 interrupt her and correct her. Yes.

7 Please proceed.


9 Q. You also studied the legal sciences and economics. You did the

10 post-graduate work in the field of international relations, and you began

11 your career as a journalist working for the TV Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12 And later, you start working -- or you set up a company which dealt with

13 financial management, marketing, and traffic. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. During the period of time, have you achieved any other education

16 or have you -- have you finished any theses apart from those I mentioned

17 here?

18 A. I have not completed any additional studies. However, after my

19 post-graduate studies in international relations I am now involved in a

20 thesis that deals with the role of the United Nations in the war in

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I hope that after the research that I have been

22 involved in I will find the time to bring that work to an end.

23 Q. Mr. Tokaca, you were involved in the work of the state commission

24 for gathering facts on war crimes in Bosnia and Herzegovina. When was

25 this state commission set up?

Page 15625

1 A. Yes, I was the secretary of the state commission from August

2 1992. The commission was set up on the 28th of April, 1992, pursuant to

3 the decision of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 Already in May, June, and July I was invited to participate in the

5 preparation of that work. And in August I was appointed the secretary of

6 that commission and I stayed with this commission --

7 Q. Excuse me.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Is it possible that Mr. Usher would move little

9 bit the ELMO because I cannot see the witness.



12 Q. Can you tell the Court what was the mandate of the state

13 commission.

14 A. It was to start gathering all the relevant facts and data,

15 testimonies, documents, military orders, and instructions of the civilian

16 authorities. And all those things that might be relevant for the court

17 proceedings that we expected would take place and that would deal with

18 the crimes committed during the war in the Republic of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina as of the beginning of war in April 1992.

20 In addition to that, our task was also to set up relationships

21 with the relevant international organisations that dealt with the same

22 tasks, regardless of their affiliations, whether they were affiliated

23 with the United Nations, a different state, or whether they were

24 non-governmental organisations.

25 Q. Mr. Tokaca, I would like to ask you to make your answers a little

Page 15626

1 bit shorter because it's difficult to follow it and also for interpreters

2 it's difficult to translate such long answers.

3 You mentioned that your task was also set up cooperation but --

4 cooperation with other organisations. Apart from that, what other

5 specific tasks did you have within the commission?

6 A. We focussed on research; that was our main mission. We sought to

7 find people who had information about war crimes. We talked to them.

8 Based on their knowledge and interviews that we conducted with them, we

9 wanted to obtain relevant data that would be forwarded to the judiciary

10 organs in the future. That was the main part of our job.

11 Q. You mentioned interview. You interviewed people. Did you

12 personally interview any witnesses?

13 A. Yes. We opted for interviews because it is a complex form and

14 provide -- provides a lot of data. I conducted a series of interviews

15 with the witnesses. I took their statements. I was in charge of the

16 entire job. I was responsible for that. I had my associates who worked

17 on the ground in Sarajevo and in other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18 However, the condition of war were such that they imposed a need for me

19 to work with the witnesses and to take statements from them.

20 Q. Approximately how many statements did you personally take and how

21 many statements were taken by the commission as such?

22 A. I myself must have taken over a thousand statements. Every

23 statement that was taken for the commission I read. Up to today, we have

24 taken over 7.000 statements all together.

25 Q. Can you explain to the Court the methodology of work you adopted.

Page 15627

1 What -- after you take the statement or even before you take the

2 statement, what -- what was the work you did?

3 A. First of all it was very complicated to obtain statements and

4 witnesses in the conditions that we faced. I worked in Sarajevo that was

5 under siege all this time. We used all sorts of methods in order to

6 cross over through the tunnel in order to find the witnesses and work

7 with them.

8 After we gathered documentation, that documentation would arrive

9 in Sarajevo in our central office where the lawyers, historians, and

10 sociologists analysed that documentation and that documentation would be

11 classified according to the methodology that we set up, which was based

12 on the four Geneva Conventions and two Additional Protocols, one being

13 the protocol on genocide. Those documents were classified. We set up a

14 code system and this was filed in our archives and before that the data

15 was entered into our database.

16 Q. Before we go into your database, I would like to ask you -- you

17 said you analysed, you store, and later you put -- you input data into

18 your database. Until now, have you managed to enter all the data into

19 your database?

20 A. Unfortunately we have not. The documents are numerous. We were

21 -- faced a lot of problems during the war. Even after the war the work

22 of the commission has been obstructed. That is why quite a lot of

23 documentation has still not been analysed nor has been one -- part of the

24 database. I don't know what the final destiny of the commission will be.

25 Its status has still not been clarified. In the meantime, I and a group

Page 15628

1 of associates have set up an association; that is a voluntary

2 organisation. I'm a volunteer there. I did that in order to continue

3 our work because the work of the commission from the Dayton Accords until

4 today has been rather blocked and hampered with.

5 Q. You said that the work was blocked and that you with other group

6 of volunteers, you want to continue the work of the state commission.

7 How long did you work for the state commission?

8 A. Until 2003.

9 Q. And after that?

10 A. After that I became the president of the research and

11 documentation centre. I would like to add that all the funds were

12 interrupted in August 1998. That's why the commission was blocked in its

13 work. I had to seek solutions in order to be able to continue this very

14 important work, the research work that is very important, to my mind.

15 Q. So you said that you continue working in this research and

16 documentation centre. Is it a new type of work or do you continue what

17 you started -- what you already started doing with the state commission?

18 A. Our main goal was continue the good tradition of the commission.

19 In other words, we wanted to preserve our experiences, to build upon

20 them, to continue collecting documents and statements, to continue the

21 project of what we call oral history. And in addition to that, we wanted

22 the activity of this documentation centre to be enlarged and to spread on

23 to the gathering of other documentation that is filed in other

24 institutions. We wanted to create a good quality archive and to also

25 engage in the education of young people in the field. In other words, we

Page 15629

1 wanted to set up one unique place where we would collect documents that

2 could be relevant for providing answers to what happened during the

3 period 1992 to 1995. So this research centre focuses on this period of

4 time between 1992 and 1995 and everything that happened during that

5 period of time, during the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 Q. Mr. Tokaca, do you work on any specific project within the

7 research and documentation centrum?

8 A. First we created a strategy which we called "facing the past."

9 This strategy consists of several pillars or several very specific

10 projects that we are involved in. One of the key projects that we

11 started towards the end of 2003 is the project -- the working title is

12 "the losses of population." I can go back to that project later on. In

13 addition to that project, the losses of population, we also have another

14 project called "oral history," also "the monitoring of case -- of legal

15 proceedings." I believe that you know that the state court has started

16 operating in Bosnia with a special focus on war crimes. We want to

17 monitor the work of that institution.

18 So the entire work of the research and documentation centre will

19 have a number of aspects. In addition to that, we have established close

20 cooperation with two similar documentation centres in Belgrade and in

21 Zagreb. In Belgrade, this is the fund for humanitarian law and in Zagreb

22 the centre for facing the past. We want to create the environment in the

23 entire region which would serve as a forum for open discussion of all the

24 war crimes. We want to create such an atmosphere in which potential

25 witnesses who have never spoken to anybody come forward, talk about their

Page 15630












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15631

1 experiences. We want to eliminate the cases of manipulation with a

2 number of facts in our area. We want to talk through facts and through

3 court decisions that have been handed down before this Tribunal but also

4 before local courts.

5 Q. Mr. Tokaca, you describe now the -- in detail the purpose of the

6 establishment of this centre. I would like to focus on this project

7 called population losses. Did you set up also or created a database by

8 working in the research and documentation centrum?

9 A. That was a precondition for such a complex research. We set up a

10 very modern and quality database in which we stored everything that

11 resulted from our research. We wanted to find every individual victim

12 and explain their destiny, irrespective of the fact whether they were

13 civilians, whether they were soldiers, irrespective of their religious,

14 ethnic, professional or social affiliation. This is what we were not

15 interested in. We focussed on the victims. We wanted to find as much

16 information as possible as to how that victim became victim in the first

17 place.

18 Q. So if -- if I understand correctly, you are collecting

19 information not only on crimes committed against Bosniaks, but also

20 crimes committed against Serbs and Croats. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: With the Court's permission, I would like to ask

23 Mr. Tokaca just briefly introduce his database showing the data he is

24 storing.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There has been a request by the witness could

Page 15632

1 use a laptop computer. The Chamber has said that as long as it's

2 perfectly clear what exactly he consults, that it would be no problem.

3 If the witness introduces that database, how will this -- I don't take it

4 that the witness will give his laptop to us at the end of his testimony

5 of Court. How is this going to be tendered into evidence, the

6 information that he gives?

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: In effect, I only wanted to explain to the

8 Judges how -- how the research centrum works.


10 MS. RICHTEROVA: What kind of data he is using. It's nothing

11 else than to assist the Judges to understand the database. We don't seek

12 to tender the database into evidence.

13 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that some of the charts you'll present

14 later are taken from that database?

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: That's correct, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So then it's yes. And I take it that you're not

17 going to explain it to us but that the witness is going to explain it to

18 us.

19 Mr. Josse.

20 MR. JOSSE: As Your Honour knows, we've been forewarned of this

21 and we have no objection.


23 Q. Mr. Tokaca, if we press one of these buttons, which I don't

24 know which we do -- computer.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 15633


2 Q. Can you explain to the Judges what files can be found in your

3 database.

4 A. Considering the amount of time that this would take up, I would

5 just like to make it possible for you to appreciate the method we use

6 when setting up the entire project.

7 Here on the screen you can see a whole range of lists and figures

8 with data and I'm going to show you about religious affiliation and then

9 it refers to the ethnicity of the victims that we have seen in the course

10 of this research.

11 Then there is a reference once again to ethnic groups and

12 municipalities. And we're talking about 112 municipalities in Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina and the source of these documents used. Here you've got a

14 whole range of different lists of institutions, individuals, et cetera.

15 We're talking about 400 --

16 Q. Mr. Tokaca, can you slow down --

17 A. I do apologise. So it is a whole range of different sources of

18 information that we have been using because it is extremely important for

19 us to try when it comes to each and every victim and dead person to

20 explain the circumstances of their death. And in item 5, we have an

21 indication of the way in which people were killed and then different

22 types of documents, videos, written documents, questionnaires, newspaper

23 articles, photos, tapes, and databases from different government and

24 non-governmental institutions that we all use in order to be able to

25 compare the data.

Page 15634

1 JUDGE ORIE: Can I ask you to slow down, because you're

2 developing a speed which is difficult for the interpreters.

3 THE WITNESS: [In English] Okay.

4 [Interpretation] I do understand.

5 So in the end we've got different types of documents that we are

6 using here. In the end 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. You can see that there is a

7 system of clarification of data on a legal basis. We've been using it,

8 as I told you, in order to make sure that every single piece of

9 information that we use, in statements, in different questionnaires, in

10 databases, so that we can classify it all properly and that makes it

11 easier for us to retrieve that information if we need it later on. I did

12 mention that we use the system which is enshrined in the Geneva

13 Convention and in other rules and regulations of international

14 humanitarian law. And you can see we've got five categories -- that is

15 to say six categories here and we're talking about protected individuals

16 and so on and so forth. I don't want to be too long-winded, but I would

17 just like to open the key part.

18 [In English] It's too fast?

19 JUDGE ORIE: You really have to slow down. It's --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm doing my best, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps, Ms. Richterova, perhaps you take a

22 bit more lead --

23 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm trying, but --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I know.

25 THE WITNESS: [In English] Okay.

Page 15635

1 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, I wouldn't say that the

2 methodology is not important, but this Chamber has been provided with the

3 Milosevic testimony and it noted that approximately 80 per cent was the

4 methods used and the quality of the work, but not much on what the work

5 resulted in. So of course that's -- that's something that the Chamber is

6 interested in.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: I understand and in fact I intended to make it a

8 little bit shorter, but I will try now --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do it the following way. I take it that

10 you've familiarised yourself with it.

11 Ms. Richterova will put questions to you. If you could give

12 short answers and wait for the next question because it's difficult and

13 you're not the only one who has problems with it.

14 Please proceed, Ms. Richterova.


16 Q. Mr. Tokaca, because we are focussing on people killed and missing

17 and you also prepared the charts which we will be discussing in a short

18 -- shortly, I only want you to explain to the Judges the way how you

19 avoid duplications which always happen when creating a database and

20 inputting information. If you could very briefly show the relevant file

21 and explain in a few sentences how you avoid duplications.

22 A. It was one of the extremely complex issues that we had to solve

23 in the course of this research. Before I give you an answer, it is very,

24 very important to give you the overall context and explain why we had to

25 do that and both this Court and anyone else investigating war crimes will

Page 15636

1 know that in an entire region there had been a great deal of manipulation

2 with figures and very imprecise assessments of the number of victims.

3 All that has been misused and abused in a number of ways, and so it was

4 our intention throughout this project to arrive at an as accurate number

5 as possible, but not just the number but the identity of victims.

6 In the course of that process it used to happen that there was

7 indeed a great deal of duplication when it came to the names of victims

8 because the victims names came from a whole range of sources and

9 sometimes there was duplication even coming from one and the same source.

10 So it was one of the key tasks that we had to complete. Let me just

11 quote one example so I can show you how we did it.

12 For example, column 1 to the left where you see my arrow now, it

13 refers to possible sources of data and here you have different

14 indications and different sources of data that we used. Thereupon in

15 column A you've got the X here. These are the victims in our database

16 that we qualify "active" and they're the only ones that we consider

17 because everything is either duplication or indications which are not

18 supported by sufficient proof, data, that would make it sufficiently

19 convincing from our point of view to think that it is a victim that has

20 actually died. For example, Abaza Muhamed. I'm showing you the arrow.

21 Q. Mr. Tokaca, you said the word "active." If an entry is active,

22 what criteria this entry has to fulfil?

23 A. When we talk about so-called active entries means that we have

24 more than 250.000 names in our database. In order to determine what

25 data, what entries are considered active, as you can see out of three

Page 15637

1 names, out of a total of three, we opt for a name which is supported by

2 the most complete data. In this case, the example is Mr. Abaza Muhamed.

3 Even though it is quite clear that there is his father here, Arif, and

4 you've got the same name four times over and the same year of birth three

5 times, 1949. So we've got a couple of repetitions of this name and

6 family name in this database and we opted for this particular X because

7 it provides us with the most complete set of data with reference to this

8 same person. So by that token we've managed to eliminate from the

9 database three names which represent duplications. In the same way we've

10 tried to eliminate all the other similar cases from the database, that is

11 to say having the repetition in different checks and forms because that

12 would give us a different total.

13 The X that you referred to is the key indication which means that

14 in the sum total this is the final data. For example, we have 150.000

15 names in the database. These 90.000 that are marked by X are the

16 so-called active entries and we consider them to be correct, or -- in

17 other words we consider those to be the relevant data.

18 Q. I think this was sufficiently explained. And I would like you

19 now to have a look at the charts.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: I don't know whether the witness was provided

21 with the charts and the Judges.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the chart would be -- and let me just

23 see what you called the chart, Ms. Richterova --

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: It's the colour version of chart and drafts.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the one which goes through the

Page 15638

1 municipalities and -- yes. And it goes from 3869 to 4053. Yes. That's

2 clear. That would be number ...

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that chart which is referred to of

4 the killed and missing Bosnian civilians in 1992 will be prosecution

5 exhibit 857.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Yes, I see that there's

7 no translation, Ms. Richterova --

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: We will provide the translation of the one of

9 the charts, but it's very self-explanatory and we will ask the witness to

10 explain exactly what the chart and the word means.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Just to see if we can cut that short and save time.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: I -- sorry.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Just looking at the front page, it seems that it is

14 about civilians in 1992, that is split up in 12 months. That on the

15 chart we see at -- where it starts with one -- from one to two should

16 then be January, from 2 until 3 should be February. This also explains

17 why we go from 12 to 13 because that's the whole of the month --


19 JUDGE ORIE: -- of December. Then I see Ubijeni and Nestali,

20 which seems to be -- Ubijeni the ones killed and Nestali the ones

21 missing. We can get that from other sources. These are numbers that are

22 totalled at the end. This is about Nestali. The second page would be

23 about Bijeljina. And then one of the things that perhaps needed so more

24 explanation is at the bottom it says "nacionalna struktura po popisu

25 1991." Is that the -- the 1991 census, how people reported their

Page 15639

1 nationality. That would be on the first line Croats, on the second

2 Bosniaks or Bosnians, on the third line Serbians, on the fourth line

3 Yugoslavians, and then on the fifth line, "ostali" would be foreigners?

4 Could I just check that with you, Witness, ostali.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Others.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, others.

7 Then I see on the chart itself which is a bit of a pity that the

8 -- the ones killed, if there are more who are missing then suddenly the

9 line indicating those killed disappears, is hidden by the numbers of

10 those missing. That's of course a consequence of using this pattern. We

11 see it on the top -- we see still the numbers. But on the bottom the

12 blue disappears behind the red. Yes. A little bit less of colour could

13 have given us also a graphic insight. Does this explain more or less

14 what such a page says?

15 Yes. Ms. Richterova, please add whatever, but just looking at it

16 not being a jury but professional Judges it might be more efficient to

17 see what we already understand from what we see and then you add whatever

18 we might not have understood.

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: I agree with Your Honour because I think these

20 charts are self-explanatory. I have only a few questions. The first is:

21 Q. You put titles "killed" and "missing." How did you set criteria

22 who would be put into a category of killed and who would be put into a

23 category of missing?

24 A. All persons whose identity has been established have been placed

25 into the category of the killed. As to any persons that we are still

Page 15640

1 searching for we don't know where certain body parts or entire bodies

2 might be are still in the category of those who disappeared. So that was

3 the basic key criterion as to why we've got these two categories here,

4 killed, once the identity of the victim is known and has been

5 established.

6 Q. You said "once the identity of the person was established." Do

7 you need to input into your database a date of death in order the person

8 would be put in the category of killed?

9 A. Precisely. The entire questionnaire includes a whole range of

10 data with regard to each individual victim, name and surname, place of

11 residence, the father's name, the date of death, the place of death, and

12 an exact location as to where the body had been buried.

13 Q. So in fact when creating this chart, have you eliminated any data

14 from your database?

15 A. Yes, it was indispensable because for many people we still don't

16 know the exact date of death. So we could only have this sort of table

17 with reference to those people where we at least know the month and the

18 year of their death so that you can have all these indications as

19 indicated in these tables. In order to have that, you at least have to

20 have the month and the year of death, otherwise we wouldn't have been

21 able to compile these tables.

22 Q. If you do not have this kind of information, what do you do with

23 the data?

24 A. We've dropped that data from these tables. Let me just tell the

25 Court that this is not final data. This is simply indicative data as to

Page 15641

1 a certain phenomenon, that is to say the phenomenon of killing people and

2 having people disappear in a certain area and over a certain period of

3 time. This is an ongoing process. I don't expect any major changes, but

4 there will be changes in terms of figures. As you add new data into the

5 database, the figures will change but this is just an indicative set of

6 data with regard to the killing of people in a given area over a certain

7 period of time.

8 Q. I would like to go to the chart for the municipality of Foca. It

9 is the fourth chart with the ERN 0422-3872. And you mentioned that in

10 this chart is an error. Can you explain -- can you point which error

11 occurred in this chart?

12 A. Certainly. Whilst preparing for this testimony I checked the

13 database once again, and -- I mean it's an endless task basically, but it

14 is particularly important for me to point this out. Number 33 in the

15 first column -- I can't really say that it is a mistake because all those

16 people had indeed been killed. However, if we did not know the exact

17 date, the data will nevertheless have to be included in the system. And

18 we are talking about 33 people who were indeed killed in 1992, but we

19 don't have any more specific information about their killings. So that's

20 why we entered the 1st of January, 1992, for all these people and that's

21 why they've cropped up in this table and that's why I've asked you to

22 drop those 33 people from that table. That's my first point.

23 In column number 6 where the reference is to 201, 201 people

24 killed. I came across one man whose family name read Masic in one place

25 and somewhere else Mesic. And according to our system we found that it

Page 15642

1 was a kind of duplication. However, those cases are extremely rare.

2 So this is why I've warned you. Just to let you know that in as

3 far as these tables are concerned we will make some minor changes, no

4 major changes. But even as they currently stand they are quite reliable

5 and they firmly confirm a certain phenomenon.

6 Secondly, you've got numbers matched by names and family names,

7 plus extra data. So these are not simply figures; these are figures

8 behind which we've got names and surnames of individual people. And here

9 in the case of Foca, for example, you can see what happened and over what

10 period of time.

11 Q. Based on this chart, were you able to form any conclusion in

12 relation to people killed and missing?

13 A. Could I just ask you to allow me to make another point before I

14 answer this question. I think it's quite essential for the purposes of

15 the Court. In 1996 for the UN committee led my Mr. Manfred Novak on the

16 people who disappeared, I did a task for them, a project for them, on the

17 basis similar graphs. And that's what gave me the idea to continue

18 applying the same method and including people who were killed as well.

19 Those graphs at the time were rather interesting and they almost fully

20 overlapped with what I managed to draw up ten years later. I submitted

21 that study to the Court and you may use it as you see fit.

22 But basically, all the graphs that I submitted to you, starting

23 with Nevesinja, Bijeljina, and so on and so forth basically indicate the

24 appearance of a phenomenon in a very short period of time. It mostly

25 happened within four months of 1992, people being killed, people

Page 15643












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15644

1 disappearing. You've noticed it probably, but maybe we should have used

2 different types of graphs. But there is total overlap of people being

3 killed, people disappearing. So all this tallies completely. And if we

4 talk in terms of the time scale in Foca, for example, it all took place

5 between April and August. So it is a very short period of time,

6 basically.

7 Q. I also would like to ask you -- now we were -- a minute ago we

8 were describing the difference between killed and missing. You also

9 provided a list or chart in which you distinguished - and we can see it

10 also in your database - you distinguished between civilians and soldiers.

11 What are the criteria using and inputting this type of information? What

12 is the source of information?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Richterova, are you moving to another exhibit

14 or --

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. I'm --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Should we then perhaps --

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: We can do it now before the witness answers the

18 question.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Make that clear, yes.

20 That would be a document without ERN numbers, I take it.

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: We are awaiting the ERN. I would like to use

22 the one I think we provided you one version which has English unofficial

23 translation attached to always relevant B/C/S page.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would love to say how many pages there are,

25 put since it is all 1 out of 1 I would have to count them all. It's the

Page 15645

1 IDC research documentation centre documents.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: There are altogether 28 pages, 14 English, 14

3 B/C/S.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Richterova.

5 Mr. Registrar, that would be?

6 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Prosecution Exhibit P858.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Before we move to that, Ms. Richterova, would you

8 allow me one or two questions to the witness.

9 I saw that you highlighted in yellow on -- the months 4, 5, 6 in

10 the year 1992. And then suddenly in Kalinovnik month 7 is included as

11 far as killings are concerned. Has this a specific reason or is it just

12 a mistake?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This was just for me. I

14 wanted to mark the things that I have spoken about. For example, in

15 Nevesinje you can see that the yellow colour just remained as an internal

16 marking. It has got nothing whatsoever to do with any relevant data. I

17 just used this yellow marking temporarily and I didn't have the time to

18 erase it. There are even some graphs where there's no yellow colour. In

19 haste as I was preparing for this testimony, I just omitted removing this

20 yellow colour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- so it has no meaning. Then one other

22 question. The top always indicates what municipality we're dealing with,

23 and it also say Bosnaci. Does that mean that we are just -- that these

24 -- these data only concern Bosnians in the sense of -- well, we have

25 heard a lot of words, Bosniaks, very often put at the same level. But I

Page 15646

1 take it that you'd rather not use that word Muslims. But at least

2 Bosnian -- non-Serb Bosnians. Is that -- non-Serb, non-Croat, or is

3 everyone included?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm using the official

5 name for the ethnic group called Bosniaks in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 This is a constitutional category and I can't call people by any other

7 name. There is another term in terminology which is not legitimate.

8 Sometimes these people are referred to as Muslims or Bosnian Muslims. In

9 this case they are ethnic Bosniaks. They are not Serbs, they are not

10 Croats, they are not others, they are ethnic Bosniaks. As the Prosecutor

11 said, we can produce such tables for any other ethnic group in Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina which will depend on the needs of this Tribunal.

13 JUDGE ORIE: It's just to be fully aware of what these data are

14 about.

15 Please proceed, Ms. --

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can I have one more thing regarding this chart.

17 It's a chart with ERN number 0422-3881. It says Doboj Samac.

18 Q. And can Mr. Tokaca inform me --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- that it was an error. What is the correct title of this

21 chart?

22 A. Doboj.


24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, if I may

25 take a moment of your time. Since the Honourable Judge asked me, I would

Page 15647

1 like to say that there are two graphs here that I have submitted. In one

2 of them there are Croats in Modrica and in Kotor Varos. This is the only

3 exception to the whole group. This graph should be here. This is 04 --

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the number.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kotor Varos, and you see here

6 Bosniaks --

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: The ERN number is 0422-4045. It is a little bit

8 behind --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see it's split up Kotor Varos -- not split

10 up, but it gives two graphs and data, one for Bosniaks and one for

11 Croats. Yes, that's good.


13 Q. If we go back to the other exhibit --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, P858.

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can the witness be provided.

16 It is only show and the witness can explain very briefly what

17 kind of data or information can be -- can be obtained from his database.

18 If we take the page number 1 which is entitled -- which title is "Total

19 Number of Those Killed and Missing During the War Based of Cause of

20 Death," we can see --

21 And I am referring to the municipality of Bratunac so that we are

22 talking about the same -- same chart or list.

23 Q. So we can see that in this -- are you with me, Mr. Tokaca? We

24 can see here that you put Bosniaks and Serbs. And again, we have

25 "killed," "missing," "unknown," and "total number." This total number

Page 15648

1 here which is 3.469, for what period -- which period of time?

2 A. All the data here covered the period between 1992 and 1995. This

3 chart depicting the total number of killed and missing of 3.469 names for

4 the municipality of Bratunac covers the period between 1992 and 1995.

5 The first column refers to the killed people of Bosniak and Serb origin.

6 In this table we do not go into the status of people during the war,

7 whether they were civilians or soldiers. The fact is that they were

8 killed. The next column covers the missing persons, and the following

9 one covers the unknown circumstances of death. We also covered such

10 situations in which we did not know at all what happened to the person.

11 If you look at the next table, the table of the total number of killed

12 segregated into the categories of whether they were soldiers or

13 civilians, the data is somewhat different. However, the total is almost

14 the same; it differs by one name. You have civilians in vertical

15 columns, the ethnic structure is the same, and also you have soldiers.

16 Q. Mr. --

17 A. Just a moment, please. Again, we do not know the status of nine

18 Bosniaks and we do -- did not know for 28 Serbs whether they were

19 civilians or soldiers. So the last column covers the status of these

20 people during the war.

21 Q. And I would like to stop here because here I would like you to

22 explain. How do you set criteria for date -- for calling someone

23 civilian and calling someone a soldier?

24 A. When you collect data and when you receive data on every

25 individual victim, we receive those from various sources. We receive

Page 15649

1 data from official sources, the ministry of defence, various

2 institutions. Amongst that data we would come across the status of the

3 person during the war. That was reliable information as to whether they

4 were soldiers or civilians. Furthermore, we did not always trust the

5 information that we had received. We sought additional information about

6 the status of these individuals. For every person we wanted to be sure

7 what their status was. We went as far as to visit the cemeteries, we

8 took photographs of the places where they were buried. In many of those

9 photographs, there are headstones depicting the names of the people.

10 There is a number of sources of information based on which you can

11 establish whether the person was killed as a civilian or as a soldier, in

12 other words what their status was at the moment of their death.

13 Q. And in case you cannot establish whether the person was civilian

14 or soldier, what is your procedure?

15 A. As you can see in the table, we then categorised them into the

16 category status "unknown." We were sometimes not absolutely certain.

17 According to some records, one person was a civilian and that same person

18 was a soldier. When we could not decide what the truth was, we would put

19 such a person under the category "status unknown," and status in this

20 case refers to their status during the war at the moment of death.

21 Q. And if I go back to the Exhibit P857 when we have this chart from

22 various municipalities and you put title "civilians," did you -- did you

23 exclude those status was unknown?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Then we can -- we don't need to go to any further details

Page 15650

1 regarding this document.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I would have a few questions on it. First, on the

3 first page I see total number of those killed and missing during the war

4 based on the cause of death. Well, first of all, I do not see any

5 information about the cause of death. Is that correct? It says whether

6 someone died or whether someone is missing or -- but it doesn't say

7 anything about the cause of death. Is that a mistake or is that a

8 translation problem?

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, it is an exact translation and --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then could perhaps the witness please slowly read

11 the top of the first page where it says -- I think it's -- forgive my

12 pronunciation, [B/C/S spoken]. Could you read that line so that the

13 interpreters could translate that --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I read the Bosnian version?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The table that covers the

17 municipality of Bratunac. The total number of killed and missing

18 according to the way they disappeared. This is the way they were

19 disappeared. Either they were killed or they went missing. And there

20 are numbers for Bosniaks, for the killed, for the missing.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it seems to be a translation error, Ms.

22 Richterova. That's one.

23 The second question I would have is on the second one where it

24 reads "Total Number of Those Killed and Missing During the War Based on

25 Which Army They Belonged to." Now, I see that a lot of civilians, that's

Page 15651

1 2.037 civilians belonged to the Bosnian army and 105 civilians belonged

2 to the Serbian army. That's at least what it says. Yes --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid you're not right, Your

4 Honour. Can you look at the two vertical columns. On the left-hand side

5 let me just first tell you that the name of the table in Bosnian. "The

6 Total Number of Killed and Missing According to the Status, the Civilian

7 Or Military Status." The first column covers civilians. The number that

8 you read out is civilians, Bosnian and Serbian civilians. The next

9 column --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- that's perfectly clear. Then we have

11 again a translation error here. Could you slowly read the title above

12 this -- these data which starts with [B/C/S spoken]. Could you read that

13 line just slowly so that the interpreters can translate it to us.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The Total Number of Killed and

15 Missing." I believe that it would be better for me to "add according to

16 their military affiliation."

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please -- yes, yes. It's just a

18 translation error. It's perfectly clear that -- yes. And military

19 affiliation as far as civilians are concerned is to what - how to say

20 that - to what group they belonged, not saying that they were military

21 but they are at the site of where the militaries were -- yes. Okay.

22 That's clear.

23 Could you please take care that we get the right translations --

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: Of course, Your Honour. I apologise and as I

25 stated at the beginning it is really an unofficial translation prepared

Page 15652

1 for the purposes of today's session because we didn't have time to obtain

2 an official translation.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just -- one second. Yes. If we are

4 talking about the municipality of Bratunac, are we talking about those

5 who were killed in Bratunac or those who resided in Bratunac before --

6 and got killed or went missing?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case we are talking about

8 those persons who resided in the municipality of Bratunac in 1992.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.

10 Yes, Judge Hanoteau has a question for you as well.

11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I have not understood something;

12 that's why I would like to ask you about the municipality of Bratunac.

13 When you say "civilians, Bosniaks and Serbs," and you mention the

14 figures, are these people who did not have anything to do with the army,

15 with the military? Am I right in thinking that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were civilians and this

17 is what it says here.

18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And now for the soldiers, the

19 Bosniaks and the Serb soldiers mentioned here. Were these soldiers who

20 resided in Bratunac or were they soldiers who were killed in Bratunac?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were soldiers who resided in

22 Bratunac and who had their address, residence, in Bratunac in the year

23 1992.

24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Were they killed in Bratunac?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not all killed in

Page 15653

1 Bratunac, probably. They could have been killed elsewhere. However,

2 there are two criteria for our research and I could go into great length

3 in subanalysing these graphs. In this case we were not interested in

4 soldiers more or less. There is also the category of the location of

5 death. However, the analysis that we have done so far for civilians,

6 they all show the almost total overlapping of the place of death and the

7 place of residence. In the case of soldiers, this will differ to a

8 certain extent. Their place of residence --

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So these persons that feature in

10 these tables are persons who resided in Bratunac but there's nothing to

11 say that they were killed in Bratunac. And the same is true of the

12 civilians and of the soldiers. I apologise.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're not right.

14 These graphs that you are looking at are -- all refer to civilians. The

15 graphs only cover civilians. Soldiers were never the subject of our

16 analysis. We have not analysed where they were killed. This should be

17 the subject of a special analysis for us to see about the soldiers --

18 1.289 soldiers, to analyse where they were killed, whether they were

19 killed in Bratunac or elsewhere. But this would be a special, a separate

20 analysis if we wanted to do that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Canivell has a question for you as well.

22 JUDGE CANIVELL: [Interpretation] Witness, could you provide us

23 with the following information. Could you give us the figures for all

24 the municipalities that are covered by the map.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I didn't understand

Page 15654

1 your question. The total number of victims in these charts?

2 JUDGE CANIVELL: [Interpretation] Could you indicate -- You've

3 told us about Bratunac. Could you provide us with figures covering all

4 the other places that are marked by the colour blue on -- in your map

5 that is at the front of your documentation in the same way you have

6 provided us with information for the municipality of Bratunac.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: Maybe I can assist --


9 MS. RICHTEROVA: -- to the witness. We have a map and so I would

10 like Mr. Usher to show the --

11 JUDGE ORIE: There may be some confusion. The map has not yet

12 been presented to the witness. Are you going to deal with that anyhow,

13 Ms. Richterova, the totals?

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. I wanted to --

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE CANIVELL: [Interpretation] I apologise. The Prosecutor is

17 going to take care of that, so there's no need for you to answer my

18 question.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Richterova, I'm going to put questions to the

20 witness on matters you've discussed already.

21 It's not entirely clear how someone can be unknown in terms of

22 his status of being missing or killed. I mean, how could there ever be

23 -- either you have established, I do understand, on the basis of the

24 remains of that person that he was killed. If he's not -- if his body

25 has not been found or identified, is he missing or is he not missing? I

Page 15655

1 mean, what's -- what could create the doubt there?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no doubt when it comes to

3 the killed or the missing. Are you confused by the table in which you

4 see --

5 JUDGE ORIE: No, I see. It's uncertain -- no, in that -- no, I'm

6 mixing up two matters. Yes, I apologise for that. I find that you were

7 able beyond doubt, because otherwise unknown -- you would say if there's

8 doubt you would categorise them as "unknown." On numbers of as much as

9 approximately 3.000, you are able to establish -- well, to such a

10 certainty, to such a level of certainty on, well let's say, 99 and a half

11 per cent whether they were civilians or soldiers. I'm asking this

12 because, of course, in this Tribunal we know that it's very, very often

13 not that easy to establish whether someone was a soldier, was a

14 combatant, carried arms, even if not fully dressed in a uniform. So what

15 surprises me is the percentage in which you could draw a clear conclusion

16 and did not have to categorise that person as unknown as to his civilian

17 or military status.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This percentage is indeed very

19 small here. In Bratunac we were not sure only about the military status

20 of 37 people. There are very well-organised records about the

21 affiliation of people to certain military formations. This column

22 covering soldiers can be analysed and broken down in all the military

23 formations that were active in Bosnia and Herzegovina and we can provide

24 all the details. For the purpose of this particular case, I have

25 focussed on civilians. Whatever you can see here, you can be sure that

Page 15656












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15657

1 the percentage of the reliability on the status of civilians is very

2 high. It is absolutely impossible that any of these people categorised

3 as civilians were also soldiers.

4 The only minor dilemma may remain with the soldiers. In our

5 research we have come across situations in which we had information that

6 a person was a civilian at the moment of death. And then subsequently

7 their status was changed into a different category, the category of

8 soldiers. Those are very rare situations. And to be honest, I have to

9 tell you those are the situations when people wanted to benefit from

10 their former status. In illegal way, they changed their status.

11 However, we are talking about a small percentage of such people, but also

12 it is up to the state organs to sort and deal with that.

13 We used a number of sources, we obtained information on whether a

14 person was a soldier, whether they wore uniform, whether they belonged to

15 a certain military formation, or whether they were civilians.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I come back to my first question because too

17 easily I said that I was confused. And I might be confused again on a

18 translation problem. May I take you to the first page where it said

19 total number of those killed and missing during the war. And the wrong

20 translation says "based on the cause of death," and we now understand

21 that that should be their status as missing or killed.

22 Now, on that first page we see that for the Serbians you have 616

23 killed and you have 13 missing.

24 Ms. Richterova, you see in the translation that it's wrongly

25 translated it says "civilians and soldiers." That's not what the

Page 15658

1 original says. The original says "killed or missing."

2 Now you have one "unknown." So I come back to my question. How

3 do you establish whether it's unknown that someone -- you could not

4 establish that he's killed, you could not establish that he's missing.

5 What do I have to understand by that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have two interpretations for this

7 number. There are two reasons. The first one is a mistake, and the

8 second one is the fact that the people appeared outside the period of

9 1992 or 1995. I can check the name of that person and then I can provide

10 you with more accurate explanation as to how come this person appears in

11 this category as unknown. It is impossible for this person to appear in

12 this category as unknown. It is absolutely impossible.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it's a mistake we don't have to hear about

14 it. If it's not a mistake and you don't come up with anything else, then

15 we'd like to hear. If it is a mistake or if it is someone outside the

16 period, then of course he should not be in the database, because the

17 database is limited to, as you said, 1992-1995.

18 Ms. Richterova, please proceed -- I'm looking at the clock as

19 well. Could you give us an indication how much more time you would need

20 if you would not be interrupted and disturbed by the Bench.

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I'll be finished within 10 minutes

22 after the break.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will resume at 11.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

Page 15659

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Richterova, please proceed.


3 Q. Mr. Tokaca, I have final questions to you. You have a map in

4 front of you in -- yes, this one --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could that be assigned an exhibit number, Ms.

6 Richterova, if you would like to tender that.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: I don't intend to tender this map --


9 MS. RICHTEROVA: It's just to assist --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then we need no number. Please proceed.


12 Q. And you can see the municipalities which are covered in the

13 indictment; however, you produced these charts for lesser municipalities.

14 But are you still able to assist the Judges and tell them approximately

15 the total number of people killed and that got missing during the year

16 1992 in these municipalities? And I don't expect that you will provide

17 an exact number.

18 A. You mean the ones that I did not include in these graphs or do

19 you mean all those that you can see here --

20 Q. I mean --

21 A. Because --

22 Q. I mean all you can see there. And I'm asking this question based

23 on your knowledge and based on your work for this research centrum. So

24 you are dealing with these figures on a daily basis, as far as I

25 understand.

Page 15660

1 A. I deal with this on a daily basis, but I've prepared these graphs

2 in a detailed manner, basically. They refer to one group and I've got

3 the latest data here but only divided by municipalities and there are no

4 references to the national ethnic make-up of victims. So if we take it

5 from the east, for Bijeljina I've got the overall number at this present

6 moment. We've got 1.237 [as interpreted] people who were either killed

7 or disappeared and -- 127 [as interpreted] had been killed and 110 [as

8 interpreted] disappeared. But at the moment I can't tell you what the

9 ethnic make-up is.

10 Q. If we take -- let's start with these 25 charts which you prepared

11 for this trial. In these charts you focussed on killed and missing

12 Bosniaks. Can you assist the Judges, and it is really a pure

13 mathematics, how many Bosniaks were killed or got missing based on the

14 findings? If we are referring to this chart -- to these charts.

15 A. In these graphs we've got more than 10.000 names. So if we don't

16 go any further than that, if we don't make any assumptions outside that

17 overall number. So I'd just like to stick to the graphs I've got here

18 and if you make a sum total it's about 10.000 and something. So for

19 those 20-something municipalities. And that's what I can talk about at

20 the present moment. Obviously the overall number is much greater than

21 that, but I believe that the main point of my testimony is not to give

22 you the exact figure, and I'm unable to do so at the present moment at

23 any rate. But when it comes to these graphs here, I can state all that

24 with a great degree of certainty. It's more than 10.000 names and it, I

25 believe, paints a sufficiently clear picture of the events at that period

Page 15661

1 of time.

2 Q. So when you are saying 10 -- more than 10.000 names, we can

3 understand that it is more than 10.000 of killed and missing people in 25

4 municipalities in the year 1992. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, more than 10.000 killed or those who disappeared, civilians,

6 Bosnians, between -- in that period in 1992.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the dates once

8 again.


10 Q. Can you please repeat the dates because the interpreter didn't

11 catch it.

12 A. More than 10.000 people of Bosniak nationality in the period

13 between April and the end of 1992.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: I do not have any further questions.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Richterova.

17 Mr. Josse, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

18 MR. JOSSE: I am, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: But perhaps I have one question before I give you an

20 opportunity to do so.

21 Witness, I'd like to ask you the following: If we look at the

22 Bratunac figures you've given to us then it appears that in 1995 that we

23 certainly have a high number of civilians compared to the other years and

24 compared to the -- compared to the -- especially Bosnians. Could you

25 give us an explanation for this almost 1.600 that are reported in 1995.

Page 15662

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I don't seem to have

2 that particular graph or table in front of me. I'm not very sure what

3 you're referring to.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You see in what is now Exhibit P858, which is

5 Bratunac in the various ways it is split up, where you have a table which

6 is called "Total Number of Those Missing and Killed Based on Year of the

7 Event," then you have broken it down. 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, and 1995

8 gives a relatively high number. Do you have an explanation for that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour, I was

10 looking at the wrong table. I've got the one you mean in front of me.

11 So this is the overall number of those killed and who disappeared

12 according to each individual year from 1992 through to 1995. For the

13 year 1995 you've got 1.572 civilians killed, seven soldiers, and 291

14 where we don't know their status. My explanation is that those were

15 probably civilians who fled from Bratunac in the direction of Srebrenica

16 in the period of time between -- or after 1992 and who found themselves

17 there at the time of the Srebrenica events in 1995. So those were the

18 people who found themselves in that particular geographical area.

19 Once we start carrying out a detailed analysis -- You were quite

20 right in asking this question as where these people had actually been

21 killed. We will be able to establish that correlation between the place

22 where people found themselves in 1992 and the place where they must have

23 been killed. Many of them could have been killed in Bratunac itself in

24 1992, but in the same way, many could have been killed in other places

25 including Srebrenica because the biggest wave of refugees went in the

Page 15663

1 direction of Srebrenica. So that would be a separate table, but it

2 doesn't actually change their status as to where they were living in

3 1992. And it was in this respect that we actually did two different

4 things, two different approaches, first of all their place of residence

5 in 1992 and afterwards what were the locations at which people could have

6 been killed afterwards. So this is a very specific analysis that we're

7 going to take a special interest in in the future, but we would basically

8 want to see what happened to those people: where they went, and at what

9 locations they were actually killed, because many of those were not just

10 refugees. For example there were situations in which people were

11 apprehended at one place and they were taken somewhere else and they were

12 executed somewhere else altogether, which is not a part of that region.

13 So my explanation for this in as far as Bratunac is concerned most of

14 those people 1.572, I'm not talking all of them, most of them were

15 actually executed during the events at Srebrenica in 1995.

16 JUDGE ORIE: This illustrates that the tables might not give the

17 final answer. It's not of direct relevance, since Srebrenica 1995 is

18 both territorially and in time beyond the scope of this -- of the case

19 against Mr. Krajisnik. But at the same time it's perhaps illustrative

20 for what the tables can tell us and what they cannot tell us.

21 Mr. Josse.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Josse:

23 Q. Mr. Tokaca, your commission was set up on the 28th -- can you

24 hear me now. Your commission was set up on the 28th of April, 1992.

25 What was it called on that day?

Page 15664

1 A. State commission for the gathering of data on war crimes in

2 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

3 Q. Why on the 28th of April, 1992, was it given the title "war

4 crimes"?

5 A. Presumably, because the war started in the beginning of April.

6 Q. Yes. And what information had got back to you about what was

7 happening at that particular time? You personally, I mean.

8 A. Look, don't ask me questions about the decisions made by the

9 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I did a professional job. If you

10 ask me for my personal history, I spent the war in Sarajevo, and since

11 August --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tokaca, no one asks you about decisions taken by

13 the government. The question was: "And what information had got back to

14 you about what was happening at that particular time?"

15 So Mr. Josse wants to know what you learned about the events that

16 were going on at that time. He doesn't ask you to clarify a decision

17 taken by others. Would you please answer that question.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you just clarify that

19 question. What I need to know is whether you want me to tell you what

20 was my personal knowledge between April and August or as of the time when

21 I was taken on as the secretary of that commission.


23 Q. When did you become the secretary of the commission?

24 A. In August 1992.

25 Q. I see. All right. Well, I -- that's my misunderstanding. I

Page 15665

1 assumed you were involved from the start and I'll move on. In fact, I

2 was going to ask you where you spent 1992, but I think you begun to tell

3 us. I don't need to know exactly. You were in Sarajevo. Is that right?

4 A. Well, I was quite specific in my answer. I spent the entire war

5 in Sarajevo and the siege of Sarajevo as well. Officially I was

6 appointed in August. However, as early as May I was invited to do some

7 voluntary work in my professional capacity --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tokaca, please listen to the questions

9 carefully, answer them. You give additional information. If Mr. Josse

10 might like to hear that information, then he'll ask for it. If he would

11 like to hear other information, you'll listen to his next question and

12 provide him with the information that he's seeking. So the question was

13 whether it was right that you were in Sarajevo in 1992 and you affirmed

14 that you were.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


17 Q. From the time you were employed by the commission, who paid you?

18 Which organisation paid you?

19 A. We were allocated funds from the state budget.

20 Q. And which state are we talking about, please, for the avoidance

21 of any doubt?

22 A. We're talking about the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as

23 far as I can tell.

24 Q. And when the war ended, you continued to be employed by the same

25 entity. Is that right?

Page 15666

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And they employed you until relatively recently, from what you

3 told us.

4 A. Even today officially and professionally I'm a civil servant and

5 work at this international documentation centre is voluntary work I do so

6 it's nothing to do with the other.

7 Q. As far as you are concerned, you undertake your work in an

8 impartial manner. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Have allegations of ethnic bias ever been made against you or

11 your organisation? There are two questions there, really. Let's deal

12 with your organisation first of all.

13 A. I'm not aware of any such allegations. It may have happened. I

14 can't rule it out. But officially, on the part of any institution or

15 anything like that, I've never heard any comments as to any ethnical bias

16 on my part because everything we did we did with the intention to provide

17 answers to problems of crimes against victims, no matter who those

18 victims were in terms of their ethnic group. Of course you will

19 understand that considering the circumstances it was very difficult for

20 us to do the job no matter who the victim was. Sometimes it was outright

21 impossible. But you can see it on the basis of the names of victims. We

22 have actually recorded victims of all ethnic groups.

23 Q. So, Mr. Tokaca, at no meeting or in the course of your giving

24 evidence or at any stage in your professional life doing this job has

25 anyone ever accused you of ethnic bias. Is that what you're saying?

Page 15667

1 A. I've never been accused of that by anyone.

2 Q. Now, you have told us that your commission have taken statements

3 from 7.000 victims. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you give us the ethnic breakdown, please, of those 7.000

6 statements.

7 A. I really don't have that information. I can't give it to you.

8 But certainly there are people of different ethnic affiliations. A

9 couple of days ago I had a meeting with somebody -- I'm basically

10 interested in victims, you know, I'm not in the business of determining

11 their ethnic affiliation. I talk to anyone who wants to talk to me or to

12 people I find in the field. So I've never been interested in the ethnic

13 affiliation of any victims, so it really doesn't matter.

14 Q. Well, it may be my fault, Mr. Tokaca, but would you agree that in

15 the context of your work and your evidence to this Chamber, the ethnic

16 breakdown of the 7.000 people your organisation has spoken to is of

17 importance?

18 A. I really don't think that it is of any consequence in this

19 respect because I prepared to come here and in relation to Mr.

20 Krajisnik's indictment I wanted to come and explain what happened to

21 Bosniaks and Croats in certain municipalities. Had the Court invited me

22 to provide explanations for further ethnic groups, I would have done that

23 as well on the basis of the data I've got available. So consequently, I

24 did not prepare to talk about 7.000 witnesses but about tens of thousand

25 victims. I'm talking about victims, not about people who gave testimony

Page 15668

1 about that. So maybe that is what you see as a problem.

2 Q. Again it may be obvious, but excuse me for asking it, but

3 presumably you do have an ethnic breakdown for the 7.000 statements you

4 have taken?

5 A. I don't at the moment, but if this Court wants me to do so, I can

6 do it. I had not prepared for that because I always looked at these

7 statements depending on their content and not about -- with regard to the

8 ethnic affiliation of the victims. As to who made the statements, I did

9 not think it was all that important.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tokaca, when you held those interviews, was it

11 written down somewhere what the ethnicity of your witnesses was?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, yes. But considering

13 our method --

14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just trying to find out whether this data would

15 be available, yes or no.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it would.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Is that information in the database as well.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That data is indeed available and I

19 can make it available to this Court whenever you want me to.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear -- Mr. Josse, the data are available. If

21 you think it of sufficient importance, then we'll ask the witness to

22 provide them.

23 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

24 Q. You, Mr. Tokaca, are a civil servant. That's what you've told

25 us?

Page 15669












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Page 15670

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You treat victims in an even-handed manner. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You told us that you -- presumably you would not get involved in

5 the politics of your region at all.

6 A. What do you mean? Do you mean if I'm a member of a party or

7 what?

8 Q. No I'm not asking you that, let me hastily add. Let me be

9 specific. You remember in 1999 a man called Goran Jelic [sic] stood

10 trial at this court for genocide?

11 A. Goran Jelisic?

12 Q. Goran Jelisic. Excuse my pronunciation.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked about it Goran Jelisic.

14 MR. JOSSE: That's right.

15 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that when he was found not guilty of

16 genocide by the Trial Chamber who were trying him, you said: "I don't

17 see any explanation for this after all the witnesses and their

18 testifying; it makes me speechless."

19 A. Who did I say that to and when?

20 Q. Did you say it?

21 A. I can't remember. Can you remind me as to whom I'm supposed to

22 have said it and where?

23 Q. You said it to a journalist, I suggest.

24 A. Even assuming I had said that, I don't see a political attitude

25 there. It could have been my personal view, but it has nothing to do

Page 15671

1 with politics. I can have a personal opinion of anything whatsoever.

2 But final Court rulings are something which is final for me and you can't

3 argue against it.

4 Q. Two questions. First of all, Mr. Tokaca, did you say it? Yes,

5 no, don't remember?

6 A. I don't remember. I don't remember having said this in this

7 particular way.

8 Q. And will you accept that it would not be an appropriate thing for

9 you to say as the head of your commission?

10 A. It would have been inappropriate if I had said it this way, but I

11 don't know where I said it. Can you give me the name of the journalist

12 or the paper in which I stated that? I'd be -- I've given hundreds of

13 interviews. A lot of new journalists have called me and I'm available to

14 them at all times. And this sentence out of context does not seem

15 important to me. I always honoured all the Court rulings and I advocate

16 that all the Court rulings should be honoured and respected, and this is

17 what I stand by.

18 Q. Now, in terms of your sources of information, I want to ask you

19 specifically about a particular publication which I've got here. Let me

20 hand to you, and I have got copies for everyone else, a translation of a

21 book which is in Cyrillic. Is this document --

22 MR. JOSSE: Perhaps I could hand that out, Your Honour, if that

23 would help.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. Is it your intention to tender it or

25 would you rather wait for a second?

Page 15672

1 MR. JOSSE: I'm happy to tender this particular document which is

2 simply really an aid to me, giving a Latin version of the Cyrillic plus

3 an English translation.

4 Q. Perhaps if you read the first line which is in B/C/S, please, Mr.

5 Tokaca, and the interpreters will translate it.

6 A. "Miroslav Toholj, black book, the sufferings of Serbs in Bosnia

7 and Herzegovina between 1992 and 1995."

8 Q. And we can see it's been translated and we've got there the

9 publisher. Do you -- are you aware of that publication?

10 A. I've heard of this book.

11 Q. In what context have you heard of it?

12 A. Nothing special. I just know that it has been printed. I can

13 offer to you a host of books, a list of books written on the same subject

14 by different authors, the books that we have come by. What is the

15 context of all this?

16 MR. JOSSE: I am quite happy to --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tokaca --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I have not understood

19 the question.

20 JUDGE ORIE: No one asked you -- Mr. Josse just wanted to know in

21 what context did you know it. Did you hear from it a friend, did you see

22 it in a bookshop, was your attention drawn to it. That's what he wants

23 to know. Was it discussed in a meeting. Just the context in which you

24 became aware of the existence of the book.

25 Perhaps I say another thing to you: It seems now and then that

Page 15673

1 when you answer questions that you tend to take a defensive position, as

2 if you would have to justify anything. There's no need to do that. Just

3 answer the questions that's just put.

4 So the question was: "In what context did you hear of this

5 book?"

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is an

7 exceptionally difficult question for me. An a daily basis I come by

8 hundreds of pieces of different information. We have a library of books

9 that we collect in different ways. It's very difficult for me to answer

10 a very specific question as to when and under what circumstances I heard

11 of Miroslav Toholj's book. I know that the book exists, but truth be

12 told I can't really tell you when I heard about the existence of this

13 book. This is what I would like you to understand. This is not the only

14 book that I heard of and it's very difficult for me to say when it was

15 that I first heard of this particular book.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Again, you take ten lines just to say that you don't

17 remember. It's -- of course, if you don't remember, just answer.

18 There's no problem. You don't have to explain to us why you don't

19 remember, unless specifically asked to do it. "Just you don't remember."

20 Mr. Josse, please proceed.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.


23 Q. I need your help, Mr. Tokaca. You've told us that lots of books

24 have been written in relation to the suffering of -- the undoubted

25 suffering let me hastily add, the suffering of the victims that you have

Page 15674

1 been dealing with. Tell us, a two-volume tome such as I have here

2 presumably is not common in this field. Am I right?

3 A. It is possible. It is quite possible. I don't know whether

4 you're right or not.

5 Q. From what you've told us -- sorry, let me deal with that. If you

6 don't know, Mr. Tokaca, who would be able to answer that question?

7 That's what you've done for over ten years, isn't it?

8 A. Yes, but that doesn't mean that I have to know everything.

9 That's why I'm involved in research in order to obtain as much

10 information as possible.

11 Q. And that is why, I suggest to you, it's surprising that this book

12 hasn't been considered and/or read by you, because you're involved in

13 research.

14 A. I don't have to read every single book. There are other people

15 working with me who may have read this particular book. I myself have

16 not.

17 Q. Have you any to suppose that this book is not accurate or not

18 fair?

19 A. I don't have any reason to doubt the contents of a book before I

20 have taken it in my own hands and read it myself.

21 Q. Right. I'll move on.

22 As far as you are concerned, you have dealt even-handedly,

23 therefore, with the different ethnic groups within Bosnia. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. As much as I could, providing the circumstances in place. I

Page 15675

1 researched as much as I could.

2 Q. Have you found the Serb community hesitant in dealing with you

3 and your commission?

4 A. To a certain extent, yes.

5 Q. And how, as scientifically as you can, do you think that has

6 hindered your research?

7 A. When you're involved in research then you have to look at all the

8 sides of a coin. You have to try and draw from a number of independent

9 sources available to you, governmental and non-governmental ones, the

10 information obtained from victims and eyewitnesses. You have to try and

11 complete the picture of the events you're trying to research. The way we

12 have always worked, especially in this new institution that I'm involved

13 with, people have become more and more prepared to cooperate with us,

14 even those from the Serbian community. During the war there were a lot

15 of restrictions. A lot of limitations is behind us. The level of trust

16 has since then increased not only among the Serbs but also amongst the

17 Croats and others. They now know that we are not biased, that we are

18 trying to carry out correct research, and we obtain information from all

19 the religious and ethnic communities. Our work is anything but over and

20 we will continue doing our work as best as we possibly can.

21 Q. Do you know of any other organisation that is doing this sort of

22 work in relation to Bosnia?

23 A. I can tell you that in the government and in -- amongst the

24 non-governmental institutions there are a lot of them. In the government

25 there is a commission for the quest for the missing and there is also a

Page 15676

1 commission in -- with the office in Banja Luka that is involved with the

2 missing persons. I don't know its full title. An institute is under

3 establishment in Sarajevo that would replace all the commissions that

4 have existed so far and a new institute should be involved in that. In

5 Belgrade there is a new institute for war crimes or a commission for the

6 similar title. There are also some NGOs that deal with the problem of

7 war crimes, of missing people. I'm primarily referring to the

8 associations of victims in Bosnia and Herzegovina. You have a number of

9 such organisations from Sarajevo, Banja Luka, and elsewhere. And there

10 are also professional NGOs that deal with war crimes like, for example,

11 the fund for humanitarian right in Belgrade or the Helsinki committee on

12 human rights, the Helsinki -- in Belgrade and Zagreb. In Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina -- our documentation and information centre has been active

14 for two years as a non-governmental organisation. In any case, the

15 structure of NGOs and governmental organisations is developing and there

16 are a host of institutions that deal with that matter in different ways.

17 Q. Do you get together with some or all of those organisations to

18 try and work out an effective, efficient, and accurate basis on which to

19 conduct your research so as to come up with some reliable statistics?

20 A. Yes. If you want me to go into details, I can tell you who my

21 contacts are with. I am familiar with all the associations of victims in

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I have spoken to them. A year ago we signed a

23 protocol on cooperation with Belgrade, Zagreb, and Sarajevo on regional

24 cooperation in the researching of war crimes. I mentioned that at the

25 beginning of my testimony. This is a normal communication that you have

Page 15677

1 to develop with a number of institutions if you want to obtain

2 information from different sources and to be a part of the network that

3 deals with the same problem.

4 So we're not talking here only about my contacts from

5 institutions in Bosnia and Herzegovina or from that region; I have

6 regular contacts with some organisations outside Bosnia and Herzegovina

7 with some international institutions that support our work. If you're

8 interested, I can tell you that those are the international commission

9 for international justice from New York and a number of other

10 institutions that have contacted us: Amnesty International, Helsinki

11 Watch, the Helsinki Committee on Human Rights from Sweden. There are a

12 number of institutions with whom we are trying to cooperate in order to

13 be able to work as best as we can based on a number of data that is

14 available to us.

15 Q. It's statistics that I'm asking you about because double

16 accounting - tell me if you understand what I mean - is a problem in your

17 work, isn't it?

18 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has testified already that that's a

19 problem. Please proceed.

20 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

21 Q. And you are liaising with these other organisations and trying to

22 eradicate that? That's really all I want to ask you.

23 A. All the contacts at all of the organisations are only our attempt

24 to have as many sources of information that would enable us to explain

25 what happened to the victims, to establish their identity, to obtain

Page 15678

1 photos. We have to collect thousands of photographs in order to restore

2 the victims' figure and face. We draw information from a number of

3 sources, not only from these organisations that I've mentioned, but we

4 also move around. We search for information that is hidden in the most

5 unusual places. You wouldn't even believe where this information can be

6 found. And in this way we also prevent the things that sometimes happen,

7 and that is that some names are mentioned in several places on several

8 occasions. And thus, we avoid multiplying or increasing the number of

9 victims unnecessarily.

10 Q. You chose as your Exhibit P858 the municipality of Bratunac. Why

11 did you choose that municipality?

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: I can -- I'm sorry to interrupt. It was not Mr.

13 Tokaca, it was me.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Tokaca could have told Mr. Josse. He

15 certainly would have been able to do that.

16 Ms. Richterova informs us that it was she rather than you who

17 made the choice for Bratunac. Is that correct?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for clarifying this issue.

20 Mr. Josse, please proceed.

21 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, give me one moment, please.

22 [Defence counsel confer]


24 Q. I think it's best if I do this with a broad proposition, but we

25 want to suggest to you that in fact in Bratunac your statistics are

Page 15679

1 simply wrong and more Serbs were killed in that municipality in 1992 than

2 Bosniaks.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, may I ask you to reformulate your

4 question. It has become clear from the previous testimony of the witness

5 that his statistics do not say anything about where people were killed.

6 It's just about people registered in a certain place as residents, that

7 they were missing or killed. It's -- it has been clearly said by the

8 witness upon specific questions that where these persons were killed is

9 not part of these statistics. And your question specifically said: "And

10 more Serbs were killed in that municipality in 1992."

11 MR. JOSSE: That was my question.


13 MR. JOSSE: Again, could Your Honour give me a moment whilst I

14 take some instructions?


16 [Defence counsel confer]


18 Q. Yes. The question I want to ask is this: Again, in the

19 municipality of Bratunac, we suggest that more Serb civilians were killed

20 in that municipality in 1992 than Bosniak civilians. Now, it may be that

21 you can't answer that, Mr. Tokaca, but if you can, tell us, please.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You're doing exactly the same thing as you did

23 before. You're asking about Serb civilians were killed in that

24 municipality, whereas the witness has clearly testified. And to that

25 extent you're misrepresenting the evidence of the witness. That he

Page 15680

1 didn't say anything -- he's only -- when we're looking at the figures as

2 far as is Bratunac is concerned is that those who were residents of

3 Bratunac who were killed. Unless I misunderstood the evidence of the

4 witness.

5 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, I hope I wasn't representing

6 anything the witness said. I put a bold and I --


8 MR. JOSSE: -- put a general proposition.

9 JUDGE ORIE: But you can't say: Isn't it true that there were

10 more persons killed in the municipality if the witness has nothing about

11 who was killed in that municipality the witness has testified about the

12 killing and missing of persons who were registered as residents of a

13 certain municipality. It might be that none of them was killed in that

14 municipality. It might mean that all from the other municipalities, that

15 they were all killed in Bratunac. So therefore you're not putting it to

16 the witness but you're asking him to say that the figures are not right.

17 But what these figures represent is not fairly put in your question.

18 MR. JOSSE: I understand.

19 Q. What I then want to ask you is: You accept, from what you said

20 earlier, that these statistics only represent people who come from those

21 municipalities and bear no relationship at all to where they died?

22 A. Yes, precisely so. Precisely so. The graphs that I provided to

23 you -- could you please look at Bratunac if you have it before you. In

24 this graph you have a table. Compare it with the other table and you

25 will see that the number of people is significantly smaller. The

Page 15681

1 Honourable Judge has warned you and this is the sense of my testimony.

2 If you are interested and if the Chamber is interested in the number of

3 Serbs killed in Bratunac, we can provide you with that analysis as well,

4 if that is the subject of the indictment. As far as I know this is not

5 part of the indictment.

6 At this moment, I can tell you that when I return to Sarajevo we

7 may have totally different numbers for Bratunac. I said at the beginning

8 that the research that we are involved in is not completed. This is just

9 an indication. The tables that I provided you with, they are just an

10 indication of what happened and nothing more, nothing less.

11 From what we are going to do next, we will be able to draw up a

12 lot of tables, a lot of relations, even the relations that you are now

13 mentioning, and then we will see whether your thesis on a greater number

14 of Serbs will be confirmed or not. I can't tell you at this moment.

15 These are just hypotheses that I don't want to go into. I can only talk

16 about the things that I have in my database and that I have arguments

17 for. If you have any other data, please provide them to me. I would be

18 very happy if you could do that.

19 Q. I think it was my fault then, Mr. Tokaca, but am I right in what

20 you've just said. It would be possible for you to tell us, were you to

21 go to your database, as to how many people, according to your database,

22 were actually killed in Bratunac in 1992 and you would then divide that

23 by ethnic composition?

24 A. Yes, this can be done.

25 Q. And therefore - and I'm not being in the least bit critical

Page 15682












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Page 15683

1 here - the graphs and documents that you brought to this Trial Chamber

2 have been brought here based on your understanding of the indictment or

3 based on what the OTP asked you to bring here?

4 A. Based on my understanding of the indictment. I looked at the

5 indictment and in keeping with the indictment, as it has been drafted. I

6 tried to go through the blue municipalities for which I thought they were

7 important and offer some data. I offered data for Bijeljina, Brcko,

8 Zvornik. I chose Prijedor, Sanski Most, Bosanski Petrovac, Kotor Varos

9 in order to show what actually happened to Bosniaks and Croats in those

10 municipalities and to make a connection between my words and the

11 allegations in the indictment.

12 Q. And so I take it from this, Mr. Tokaca, that you would be quite

13 happy to liaise with investigators instructed on behalf of this accused

14 in relation to other statistical analysis.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, let's try to find a procedure. Whenever

16 we'd like to have additional excerpts from the data this witness has in

17 his database, it would be proper not to have direct contact. I mean,

18 it's a Prosecution witness, at the same time the Chamber asks -- well, is

19 interested also in further -- we might present you with a short list, and

20 the parties are invited to give that list to the Chamber. We'll

21 communicate that to the witness through the Victims and Witnesses Unit.

22 And on that list, at least as one of it appears, that on the basis of

23 known data on the place where those who are registered killed, whether

24 the witness could tell us how many were killed in Bratunac and what their

25 ethnic breakdown of those killed in Bratunac would be. That's at least

Page 15684

1 one of the items on the list. Whoever would like to suggest any more

2 items on the list could tell the Chamber.

3 Witness, would you be willing to give such additional data and

4 then without further consultation with the parties but just on the basis

5 of your database with a clear question to provide us the information the

6 Chamber would like you to provide?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely. Your Honour --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your cooperative attitude.

11 Mr. Josse.


13 Q. Finally this, sir: You said earlier in response to a question

14 from Judge Hanoteau, he asked you whether they were killed in Bratunac.

15 And in translation you said: "They were not all killed in Bratunac,

16 probably," I should stop there. That's page 33, lines 1 to 3 of today's

17 transcript. I'll repeat that. You said: "They were not all killed in

18 Bratunac, probably."

19 Did you mean to say that?

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: Which date are you referring? 1992 or in 1995?

21 MR. JOSSE: I'm referring to 1992 -- the witness said -- this is

22 at line 23 of the page 32:

23 "Those were soldiers who resided in Bratunac who had their

24 addresses resident in Bratunac in the year 1992."

25 Question by the Judge: "Were they killed in Bratunac?"

Page 15685

1 "A. They were not all killed in Bratunac, probably."

2 Q. Is that right?

3 A. Yes, that is right. I did not analyse their places of death.

4 Many of them must have been killed in Bratunac; however, it is also

5 probable that as soldiers they moved around front lines and that they

6 were killed in different places. The purpose of our research is to show

7 correlation between the place where people found themselves in 1992

8 living peacefully and places where they were killed as soldiers, for

9 example.

10 Also, we wanted to show a correlation between the places where

11 the civilians found themselves in 1992 and the places where they might

12 have been killed. I have explained that. Somebody who was arrested in

13 Bratunac and taken away -- I remember a group very well that was

14 transported from Bratunac to Pale and imprisoned there. And they could

15 have all been killed there. I'm not saying anything. People moved

16 around and we had to be able to explain that.

17 Q. I just want to go on with what you said in answer to the same

18 question. "In this case, we were not interested in soldiers more or

19 less. There is also the category of the location of death. However, the

20 analysis that we have done so far for civilians, they all show [Realtime

21 transcript read in error: "Somehow"] the almost total overlapping of the

22 place of death and the place of residence."

23 In other words, it is likely to be the same, isn't it, place of

24 residence and place of death? Or am I misunderstanding you?

25 A. This is a hypothetical question, what if. I offered graphs that

Page 15686

1 show unequivocally that the citizens who resided in certain

2 municipalities in 1992 and who went missing or were killed in various

3 locations were an overlapping phenomenon. They went missing and they

4 were killed at the same time. At the same time people were killed and at

5 the same time they went missing from their places of residence. Even

6 without my analysis, give this to any expert. That person will come to

7 the same conclusion, and that is that the events happened at the same

8 time, that the fact that people went missing and the fact that people got

9 killed happened more or less at the same time.

10 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I don't know whether in the light of

11 that answer Your Honour would permit me to again put the general

12 proposition that I advanced earlier. If Your Honour feels it's

13 inappropriate, I won't.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Was that about the numbers killed?

15 MR. JOSSE: Yes. The general suggestion that more Serbs were

16 killed in Bratunac than --


18 MR. JOSSE: -- Bosnia.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And are you talking about civilians or are you

20 talking -- because you said you're mainly interested in civilians.

21 MR. JOSSE: Civilians, correct.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's see whether we find that and specify. I

23 think we should then go to the chart saying "total number of those killed

24 during the war based on," and then we have the wrong translation and have

25 civilians 240 -- Bosnians 240 for the whole of the period and 100

Page 15687

1 Serbians. Is that correct or -- because I would -- be quite clear what

2 we are asking the witness.

3 MR. JOSSE: Well, I wanted to re-ask the question, Your Honour,

4 that one can find at page 56, line 13 of today's transcript.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but your question was whether his figures were

6 right or wrong. And I want to make it quite clear to the witness what

7 figures exactly we are talking about.

8 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Are we talking about civilians --

10 MR. JOSSE: We are talking about civilians --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Are we talking about 1992 or the whole of the

12 period --

13 MR. JOSSE: We are talking about 1992.

14 JUDGE ORIE: 1992. So it's of no -- then in the charts, we

15 should the breakup for 1992. I think we should then -- let me just have

16 a look. We are talking about people killed in 1992. Where do we find

17 that exactly, Mr. Josse? So that we can put it to the witness and say:

18 You present these figures, are they right or wrong?

19 MR. JOSSE: Well, we find it in the fourth or fifth chart in

20 P858.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The fourth or the fifth. Let me just -- if you give

22 the numbers of the -- I mean, that's of course a bit of a problem, but if

23 you would give us the title of the chart and then some clue as far as

24 figures are concerned so that we know exactly what you are talking about.

25 MR. JOSSE: In English it's --

Page 15688


2 MR. JOSSE: "Total number of those missing and killed based on

3 year of the event."

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So then now you're including the missing as

5 well, where I think your earlier proposition was about those killed,

6 isn't it?

7 MR. JOSSE: Well, that's right.


9 MR. JOSSE: And as I understand it, Your Honour, it should say

10 "total number of missing or killed." We haven't actually asked about the

11 translation.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And what about the total number of those killed,

13 which is one of the subsequent --

14 MR. JOSSE: Thank you --

15 JUDGE ORIE: And where it clearly --

16 MR. JOSSE: Thank you very much. I hadn't seen that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: This --

18 MR. JOSSE: That's very helpful, thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: -- breakdown in civilians and soldiers and those

20 unknown. I see for 1992 the total number of those killed in 1992, if we

21 are talking about civilians, 128 Bosnians and 69 Serbians. Is that

22 right?

23 MR. JOSSE: Yes, that's right.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to put that to the witness, please guide

25 him to the place and ask your question.

Page 15689


2 Q. So have you got that in your charts, Mr. Tokaca?

3 A. You mean the overall number of those killed and those missing per

4 year, the civilians?

5 Q. No. Total number of those killed based on year of the event.

6 JUDGE ORIE: What seems to be in your language, Mr. Tokaca,

7 [B/C/S spoken]. My pronunciation is certainly not right.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the municipality of Bratunac,

9 1992.


11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The overall number 1.489 killed.


13 Q. Yes --

14 A. The national make-up --

15 Q. Can I stop you. It's the very left-hand column that I'm

16 interested in which talks about 1992. Bosniaks 128, Serbs 69 in relation

17 to civilians who were killed. That's what that column refers to. Is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And I'm suggesting that in that year civilians in Bratunac, many

21 more Serbs -- more Serbs were killed than Bosniaks. Let me put it like

22 that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse puts it to you that the figures are wrong

24 because he puts it to you that there were more Serb civilians killed that

25 were registered as residents than --

Page 15690


2 Q. Yes, no, don't know, Mr. Tokaca?

3 A. It's absolutely wrong. It's absolutely and totally wrong, what

4 you are saying I mean.

5 Q. And why are you so confident that what I am saying is absolutely

6 and totally wrong?

7 A. Because you do not have the names of those civilians. If you can

8 submit the names and all the other corroborating facts, I can believe

9 you. But I at the moment have the names of those Serb civilians who we

10 believe have been killed. I'm not saying that this figure is not likely

11 to change, I'm not saying that we're not likely to have more than 69 by

12 the end of our work. However, at this stage I cannot claim that there

13 would not be more Bosniaks either. But what you're saying that in

14 Bratunac in 1992 there were more Serb civilians killed than Bosniaks,

15 sir, that's absolutely incorrect.

16 MR. JOSSE: One moment, please, Your Honour.

17 [Defence counsel confer]

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Thank you very much. No further questions.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Josse.

21 Any need for further --

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: No. There won't be any re-examination.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I've got one question for you, Witness Tokaca.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE ORIE: And you have testified in the Vasiljevic case as

Page 15691

1 well.

2 A. That's correct.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And there were questions put to you that certain

4 victims, the first ones to die, what their ethnicity was. Do you

5 remember that?

6 A. I do.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And you also said that you wouldn't know because you

8 were not interested in ethnicity of victims, therefore whether that first

9 one was Serb or Bosnian or Croat you couldn't say because that was not

10 one of your fields of interest.

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, all the material you present to us today gives

13 in quite some detail the ethnicity of the victims. What has changed or

14 why did you say at that time that you couldn't tell anything on the basis

15 of the ethnicity of victims because you were not interested in it,

16 whereas today you present us with quite a -- I mean every chart you give

17 clearly identifies the ethnicity of the victims?

18 A. Your Honour, at the investigation stage I'm not interested in the

19 ethnicity of the victims. What I can't ignore, and I should not ignore,

20 is the fact that those people did belong to various ethnic groups that

21 used to live in Bosnia and Herzegovina. So a priori my approach to the

22 problem of war crimes and victims is not based on ethnicity and religion

23 because when you start investigating something you don't know what you're

24 going to come up with. I start my investigation in such a way as to make

25 sure I uncover the whole truth about the events. As to what is revealed

Page 15692

1 we don't know at the start, we still have a long way to go. Even now I

2 can't tell you at the very end of this exercise the ethnic make-up is

3 going to be the same; I really can't tell you. And I don't want to

4 engage in that kind of conjecture. I would like to have a mathematically

5 precise set of facts about the victims. I don't care about that at the

6 beginning, I mean about the ethnicity. If I had that approach I would

7 deal with one ethnic group only and deal with those victims only to begin

8 with.

9 On the basis of these tables you can see that if I look into all

10 ethnic groups and that says something about the approach I tend to adopt.

11 I'm interested in the victims from all ethnic groups, not the other way

12 around. I'm not working on the assumption that I should look into the

13 victims one group only.

14 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not saying that you're ethnically oriented.

15 Why didn't you at that time say, give me the name of the victim and I'll

16 try to find out because that's what in our records? You understand what

17 I mean? You said at that time when you were specifically asked, I think

18 it was by the Defence, whether the first victim -- what ethnicity he was,

19 you said, I couldn't tell you -- where I do understand it is part of your

20 records and you could have told if you would have done some further

21 investigation into that.

22 A. Your Honour, when the first victim fell is a very complicated

23 issue. We can go back to 1991/1990 in all various parts of the country.

24 At the time it looked like a leading question and that's why I answered

25 the way I did. Had I actually been asked for the name and the surname of

Page 15693

1 a certain person, if I was told, okay this is Petar Petrovic in Visegrad

2 can you check out in your database when this guy was actually killed, I

3 could have done that. But I can't tell what the person asking the

4 question is after. People have to ask specific questions.

5 Give me the name of the victim, the name and the surname of the

6 victim, and I can give you a specific answer to that specific question.

7 And that is something that would be a normal and desirable communication

8 between the people asking questions and the people giving answers. Give

9 me the name and the surname and I can check it out in the database right

10 now. Anyone from the Defence or the Prosecution, or you, Your Honour,

11 can do that. I mean, as to the question who was the first victim, what

12 is the ethnicity of the first victim, it's a rather complicated issue,

13 you know. We don't know who the first victim was. Do you mean in 1992,

14 1991, 1990? So that's the way it came across when I was asked the

15 question.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I've read the transcript, I've read the question,

17 I've read the answer.

18 May I take you again to P858. These are the tables. One of the

19 tables, I hope you can find it, is the "total Number of People Killed

20 Based on the Year of the Event" but then not broken down for the years

21 but for the month within 1992. Just to guide you, it says "January 2

22 Bosnians, 0 Serbs; February 1 Bosnian, 0" -- you've found that? That's

23 the table that gives a total of 197 in that right bottom corner. You

24 found it?

25 A. You are referring to --

Page 15694

1 JUDGE ORIE: Bratunac --

2 A. Just a moment. I'm looking for it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: One of the problems, Ms. Richterova, is that there's

4 no numbering. Every page is page 1, and that's --

5 A. Yes, I think I've found it. 197 in the right-hand corner.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What surprises me, and I'm asking you whether

7 you could explain that, that where a lot of civilian Bosnians died in

8 May, that the number of Serb civilians dying in Bratunac in July, August,

9 September, October, and November is far higher than it is in the first

10 six months of that year. The reason why I'm seeking for an explanation

11 is because the Chamber has heard some evidence which places the combat

12 situation or at least the military operations rather in the first half of

13 the year. And now we see that there are hardly any Serbians dying. And

14 where in the second half of the year where it seems that militarily the

15 situation has been stabilised more or less, suddenly the number of Serb

16 civilians dying becomes far higher, even higher than the number of

17 Bosnian civilians dying. Could you -- have you any explanation for that

18 development over that year?

19 A. Your Honour, I really did not analyse the details of these

20 tables. I suppose there might have been some combat operations there. I

21 can't rule it out. I'm simply showing the data that has been uncovered

22 in the course of our research. For all these victims of Serb ethnicity,

23 for example, between July and the end of year, we could try and find out

24 where exactly and under what circumstances they were killed. It is

25 indeed possible that there may have been combat operations in that area

Page 15695












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15696

1 and that Serb soldiers had been killed in the course of those combat

2 operations. I can't rule it out. What was important to me was to record

3 the death of a civilian in a certain period of time and if possible to

4 see what the cause of death was. It is possible to do that and I can of

5 course obtain this information for you and let you know under what

6 circumstances these people died.

7 This is something that cropped up in the course of our research.

8 I did not channel it in any way. I mean, the table simply represents the

9 data that we've managed to uncover. And now with regard to each

10 individual event referred to in this table, we could come up with an

11 explanation. It is indeed possible that there have been some war

12 operations, combat operations, involving Serbs at that period of time.

13 It can't be ruled out.


15 Have the questions by the Bench triggered any further questions?

16 Mr. Krajisnik, I forgot you. I apologise for that because I should have

17 given you an opportunity to ask questions.

18 We allow in this courtroom -- Witness, we allow Mr. Krajisnik to

19 put questions to a witness as well.

20 Again, I apologise, Mr. Krajisnik, that I have not given you an

21 -- earlier an opportunity to put questions to the witness. Please

22 proceed.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise. It's a bit rude

24 for me to talk after the Bench, and I don't intend to do that in the

25 future, but do allow me please to ask a couple of questions.

Page 15697

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Krajisnik:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Tokaca.

3 A. Good day.

4 Q. We speak the same language. We call it in different ways, but we

5 understand each other and we should, though, have a break between the

6 question and the answer for the benefit of the interpreters. We both

7 tend to speak quite fast so it might be a problem.

8 I tend to ask you since I have been away from the area for a long

9 time, you were at Bratunac, or rather you have been in Bratunac recently?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you saw quite a few tombs and there is a memorial centre in

12 relation to the Srebrenica tragedy and a centre which refers to Bratunac.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you see how many people were buried there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you help the Trial Chamber, because the media sometimes

17 manipulate this information. They keep saying that we are talking about

18 all the Serbs that were killed and I think it is about 3.000 or so.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, please put questions to the witness.

20 Approximately 70 per cent of what you consider to be a question is

21 comment rather than introducing a question.

22 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I'm looking at the table which indicates that the overall number

24 in Bratunac, the overall number of those killed was 616, those missing

25 13, unknown 1, and 630 people is the total number, the overall number.

Page 15698

1 And the media keep referring that this memorial centre is for about 2 to

2 3.000 people who had been killed during the war. And I would like you to

3 try and answer and explain to the Trial Chamber and to everybody else

4 what the situation is. We're talking about the Serb population only.

5 A. I really can't talk about the same categories and in the same

6 terms that you do. All sorts of figures have been bandied about with

7 regard to Bratunac and Bosnia and Herzegovina in general. You will

8 remember that there were references to 250.000 or 350.000 people killed

9 in Bosnia and Herzegovina and you can tell that it is incorrect.

10 I deal with specific individual victims and what I submitted to

11 this Trial Chamber is the information that I have available at the

12 present moment. So I don't want to make any assumptions and I'm never

13 ever going to say that 12.000 people were killed at Srebrenica unless I

14 have 12.000 names. But I have many less names.

15 So, Mr. Krajisnik, I can't talk about Bratunac by saying it's

16 being claimed in the media, it's been rumoured, et cetera. I can only

17 talk on the basis of individual names and surnames, as I suppose you do

18 as well, and therefore I can go along with your statement here. I do

19 know that this figure of about 3.000 Serbs having been killed in the

20 municipality of Bratunac has been bandied about, but I can't believe that

21 number until I've researched it, until I complete my investigation much

22 the same way as I did with regard to Muslims. And I was there, and not

23 just in Bratunac. And even now as I'm sitting in this courtroom my

24 colleagues are entering data into the database with regard to Bratunac

25 and that's why I've told the Trial Chamber there may be a major change in

Page 15699

1 this data and that's why I've warned all those listening to me. This

2 gives a very good indication of what had happened and over what period of

3 time, what the Trial Chamber has said, that is they are interested in the

4 situation in six or seven or eight months, what have you.

5 There is a memorial centre, I visited that memorial, but I also

6 have to say that civilians, soldiers, and others have been buried there.

7 And so we actually need to check it out, who were buried there and where

8 from. But I'm not in favour of figures not based on any information. I

9 think we must establish a clear identity of each and every victim.

10 Q. My question was this: Since you were in Bratunac, did you see

11 the cemetery where those people had been buried? I did not see it

12 myself. Is there a cemetery there and did you investigate the situation?

13 Were those people from Bratunac or somewhere else?

14 A. I looked at many war cemeteries at Bratunac as well, but I can't

15 tell you at the moment. I don't suppose they were all from Bratunac and

16 much the same way as Sokolac. They are not all from Sokolac. And at the

17 military cemetery in Vlasenica, not everybody was from Vlasenica. So

18 therefore, those crosses, those tombstones that we found there, I suppose

19 they don't all mark the graves for the people from Bratunac. But those

20 who originally were registered as resident in Bratunac in 1992 will have

21 been recorded according to this criterion and if in the census of 1991

22 they were resident in Bratunac.

23 Q. Since you are from Sarajevo, as I am, could you please be of

24 assistance because I don't really have much time so could you please give

25 shorter answers. Do you know exactly how many graves there are there?

Page 15700

1 A. No, I don't know.

2 Q. Thank you. My second question: There is a piece of information,

3 do you remember, it was sent in on the 30th of October, 1992, to the UN,

4 to the high commissioner on human rights in Geneva in conjunction with

5 the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it lists all the various

6 municipalities.

7 A. Who is the author of that paper?

8 Q. I think it was your commission, the way I saw it.

9 A. Everything that ever left my office bears my signature.

10 Thousands of documents that I submitted to this Tribunal, to the UN in

11 general, or any other institution bears my signature as well and it has a

12 coat of arms of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the official coat of arms, and it

13 says the commission and so on and so forth. And so if it says so on that

14 document you should tell me.

15 Q. Can I ask you whether on the 30th of October, 1992, you sent any

16 documents to the high commissioner on human rights in Geneva? That's all

17 I'm asking you.

18 A. I can't remember.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 Mr. Tokaca, in the beginning of the war, 1992, was Sarajevo

21 covered with posters representing potential war criminals?

22 A. What period are you referring to?

23 Q. April and in May.

24 A. In April I was in Sarajevo and I believe in two places I saw

25 posters of Radovan Karadzic. I can't remember anything else, any posters

Page 15701

1 representing anyone else, and -- not where I went, and it was very

2 difficult to move around Sarajevo at the time.

3 Q. Thank you. Who was the first president of the commission on war

4 crimes?

5 A. Mr. Stjepan Kljuc.

6 Q. Did you investigate war crimes that were perpetrated in Sarajevo?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Let me ask you now: Did you read the book written by Professor

9 Muhamed Filipovic: I was Alija's diplomat?"

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer.

11 JUDGE ORIE: What was your answer as to whether you read this

12 book?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Since you read the book you must have noticed that Mr. Filipovic

16 did something which could be described as a humane gesture and he got Mr.

17 Nikola Koljevic's brother out of prison. Do you remember that?

18 A. I do remember; that is referred to in the book, but I don't know

19 under what circumstances it happened.

20 Q. It is a very humane gesture. Do you remember that?

21 A. I don't remember that.

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry, I can't see the relevance of these

23 questions.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, what's the relevance of these

25 questions? If the -- of course we have the problem of language. If you

Page 15702

1 explain the relevance.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to show you pretty

3 quickly why this is relevant.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please formulate your next or your after-next

5 question in such a way that it becomes perfectly clear as to what the

6 relevance is; if not, we'll ask you to move to your next subject.

7 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Had there been lots of arrests that you as commission were not

9 aware of around Sarajevo?

10 A. I can't rule it out. I'm not saying they were not, but my job is

11 not about assumptions. I deal with facts. If I have any knowledge of

12 some event, I try to uncover facts. There were also sorts of arrests

13 taking place, you know.

14 Q. Did you as commission know about it or not?

15 A. Of course we did, of some. Not -- we didn't know about

16 everything, but we knew of some arrests.

17 Q. According to you, were those arrests proved or even ordered by

18 the official authorities -- or rather, the commission?

19 A. We did not have those powers. We could not issue such orders. I

20 believe you should be aware of one thing. It is not a body, an executive

21 body. We could not order anything of that sort. We should help the

22 Prosecution and the courts to uncover the truth and to bring people to

23 trial, so it is absolutely impossible for the commission to have done so.

24 As to whether the official authorities had done that or not, I know

25 nothing about it, I had no documents which could prove that the official

Page 15703

1 authorities, whatever you mean, if you mean some local authorities at the

2 municipal level or the state Presidency or some kind of ministry issuing

3 such orders, for example, the Ministry of the Interior, it is possible,

4 but --

5 Q. Mr. Kljujic was a member of the Presidency. He was a member of

6 your commission. Do you know of him as a member of the collective

7 Presidency ever ordering such arrests?

8 A. I know nothing of the sort in relation to him really.

9 Q. And what about your opinion?

10 A. I know him very well and we work together. He -- no, my answer

11 is no.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop this line of questioning for two

13 reasons. First of all, although it may be true that sometimes people are

14 arrested before they disappear, this witness testified about those killed

15 and those missing and not about those arrested. That's point one.

16 Secondly, it has not become clear from the questions what it

17 actually is seeking. Since this Chamber has not understood the Defence

18 case to be that since the other party may have done things wrong, that

19 that would in any way justify or excuse what has been done, at least if

20 I'm wrong, Ms. Loukas or Mr. Josse, please tell me, but I did not until

21 now learn that that's the Defence case. So therefore, it is irrelevant.

22 You may move to your next subject, Mr. Krajisnik.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is not my goal to

24 talk about the reciprocity here. Could you please wait for me to put the

25 last question that I want to ask the witness --

Page 15704

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Krajisnik, counting the numbers of

2 questions is not one of your best-developed abilities. If you say: I've

3 got one question for the witness, then put it to him and then that would

4 most likely conclude the examination. Please proceed.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I am not allowed

6 to put questions the way I would like to, then there is pointless for me

7 to put any questions at all. This witness is from Sarajevo, where I

8 resided as well. I wanted to ask a question, but I have to make an

9 introduction into that question before I put it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik -- well, I'm not saying under no

11 circumstances a brief introduction for a question is disallowed. But at

12 the same time, I had to stop you already a couple of times because the

13 introduction was comment rather than anything else. If you please keep

14 that in mind and also please be aware that whenever it would be comment

15 rather than a neutral introduction of the question, I'll stop you.

16 Please proceed.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thank you for bearing with me,

18 Your Honour. I'm not a professional lawyer, as you know, and you

19 appreciate that, I can see. Let me put a question to Mr. Tokaca.

20 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Could you provide me with your opinion. Momcilo Krajisnik was in

22 Pale. Do you know that I could be aware of what was going on in Vogosca

23 if you draw a parallel with your Presidency --

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: He's asking for --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have to know that.

Page 15705

1 JUDGE ORIE: Both there was an objection that he was asking for

2 an opinion and at the same time the witness said that he doesn't have to

3 know that. Well, if you ask for an opinion, it's not a matter of

4 knowledge. Let me see whether I can assist you, Mr. Krajisnik.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us anything about communications at

7 that time in the closer Sarajevo area? Was there a possibility to know

8 what -- for you what happened at a short distance but on the other side

9 of the confrontation line?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the information that we could

11 come by is the information that we receive from the eyewitnesses, those

12 who survived. Sarajevo was encircled, there were no communications. So

13 whatever we could find out was by the -- through those channels.

14 As for Mr. Krajisnik's question, and a parallel between what was

15 going on in Sarajevo, if anybody issued an order there is no

16 justification for him if he didn't know what was going on in one part of

17 the town or not. He had to know. He was part of the government. If the

18 crime was committed, then he -- that person is responsible. If you were

19 in Pale, you did not have to know what was going on in Vogosca, but you

20 had to know and you had to take measures because the communication there

21 was better.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Exactly that happened what we wanted to avoid would

23 happen; that is, that you would give opinions on matters which are beyond

24 your knowledge. As far as if you stayed at the same side of the

25 confrontation line, so that means in that in BH-controlled area, was

Page 15706

1 there a possibility of communication?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Within, yes.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There were communications.

5 There was such a possibility.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you would say communication across the

7 confrontation line was difficult because of the reason you gave. And if

8 you would stay at the same side of the confrontation line, there was

9 communication. Is that a correct understanding of your answer?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, that was your last question, I

14 understood.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have one more question, and that

16 will bring my examination to an end, if I may. If the Trial Chamber will

17 allow me that last question.

18 JUDGE ORIE: You may put the question to the witness, but before

19 we allow the witness to answer the question we'll ask him to make a pause

20 so that we can consider whether the question is an appropriate one.

21 Mr. Krajisnik.

22 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You have testified today that you established contacts with

24 similar institutions in Belgrade and in Zagreb. Why did you not

25 establish such a contact with the commission in Republika Srpska?

Page 15707

1 JUDGE ORIE: The first question is: Did you establish any

2 contact with such a commission in Republika Srpska?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Krajisnik, I don't know whether

4 you understood me well. I was talking about the contacts between the

5 research teams --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not understand the question

8 fully.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Have you established contacts between your

10 organisation and a similar organisation or a similar commission, such a

11 commission, in Republika Srpska?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then there's no need to answer the question why you

14 did not do that.

15 This concludes your examination --

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. I asked

17 about the commission for the establishment of war crimes and whether the

18 contact was established with that commission.

19 Q. Did you establish contact with that commission?

20 A. I'm not aware of the existence of such a commission in Republika

21 Srpska.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, your question was: "Why did you not

24 establish such a contact with the commission in Republika Srpska?"

25 The witness -- and I interpreted this answer as: "We did," and this

Page 15708

1 concludes the examination of the witness, unless the questions of Mr.

2 Krajisnik have triggered any need for further questions from the

3 Prosecution. If not, Mr. Tokaca, I would like to thank you very much for

4 having come to The Hague and for having given your testimony. I'll ask

5 the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Your laptop will be disconnected and it will be

8 returned to you with all the data on it, Mr. Tokaca.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber is able to finalise two decisions.

11 The first is the decision on the seventh batch of 92 bis. The other

12 decision is on the protective measures for Witness 165. We could do two

13 things. We could adjourn for approximately half an hour and ask everyone

14 to return. Another way of dealing with it is the parties would be

15 informally advised this afternoon about the content of the decision for

16 the seventh batch of 92 bis. This might include already that we would

17 provide the handout that will accompany the decision.

18 That would be an informal way. It would at least give the

19 parties an opportunity to leave and go wherever they have to go at this

20 moment.

21 Mr. Josse, Ms. Loukas, any preference for one of the two options?

22 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, it seems sensible to me to adopt the

23 approach whereby the Trial Chamber can inform us informally as a result

24 of those two decisions. From the Defence perspective we wouldn't have a

25 problem with that.

Page 15709

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

2 MR. TIEGER: That's fine, Your Honour. If I could also ask that

3 -- we announce the -- our intention to tender the two additional dossiers

4 and provide them to the Court at a convenient moment.

5 JUDGE ORIE: It's Friday, it's dossier day.

6 Then the parties will be informed about the core of the decisions

7 that will be delivered formally in open court next Monday.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we still have to deal with the exhibits, isn't

10 it. That's point one.

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: That's point one. We have two exhibits for

12 Mirsad Tokaca. But also I would like to inform the Court about the

13 sources or origins of documents in two dossiers. You requested --


15 MS. RICHTEROVA: And I have the answers for you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please tell us. I'm looking at the clock and

17 I'm a bit concerned that we might run out of tape, but I'll be advised if

18 that risk comes up.

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: These documents are dossiers -- documents signed

20 by Milos --


22 MS. RICHTEROVA: And the Court was interested who Milos is. This

23 was dealt in the Brdjanin case. The name was stated in the Brdjanin

24 case. What I can see in -- what I can say in open session is that he was

25 an agent of national security service in Banja Luka. And all these

Page 15710

1 documents, type 1 in Celinac dossier and type 5 and 8 in Teslic dossiers

2 were seized in security services centre in Banja Luka on 27 of February,

3 1998.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that information. You said this is

5 what you could tell us in open session. Would there be anything to be

6 added if we turn into private session?

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: Only the name of the agent --

8 JUDGE ORIE: The name --

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: If you need to know the name.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, the Chamber doesn't know the name. Is

11 it for you important to know that name, then we would turn into private

12 session.

13 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we leave it --

15 MS. LOUKAS: We can be advised informally.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that then concludes today's session. Any

17 urgent procedural matters, apart from the ones already raised?

18 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. Thank you.


20 Then we'll adjourn until next Monday.

21 Mr. Registrar, that would be ...

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE ORIE: The parties will be advised on where it is and

24 whether it's at 9.00 in the morning or quarter past 2.00. I haven't got

25 my court calendar here, but I take it that the parties have it available

Page 15711

1 to them. We'll adjourn until next Monday.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.48 a.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of

4 July, 2005