Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18711

1 Friday, 18 November 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Mr. Registrar, would you

7 please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to cross-examine Mr. Kasagic?

12 MR. TIEGER: I will begin, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Kasagic, I'd like to remind you that

14 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning

15 of your testimony that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and

16 nothing but the truth.

17 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Tieger:

22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kasagic.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the witness.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There seems to be a technical problem.

25 MR. TIEGER: I don't know if it was the fact that the witness

Page 18712

1 spoke very quietly or his microphone was off.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you just say a few words, Mr. Kasagic, so that

3 we can check whether the interpreters can hear you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right. I can hear

5 everything now.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Fine.

7 Please proceed.

8 Perhaps you could take care that you are not too far away from the

9 microphones.

10 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Kasagic, during the course of your testimony earlier, you

13 referred to some of the decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff and an occasion

14 on which the decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff were put to the Assembly of

15 the Autonomous Region of Krajina for verification. You indicated, if I

16 recall correctly, that on that occasion you objected to the decisions, or

17 to a decision, and that three other people did as well. The Court made

18 reference to the possibility of obtaining any documentation that might

19 relate to verification of ARK Crisis Staff decisions by the Assembly, and

20 I think we have at least one such document that bears on that issue, and

21 I'll be presenting that to you in a moment.

22 Let me ask you first, however, if the -- you referred to a

23 specific decision. Was it that specific decision that was up for

24 verification, or was it a host of ARK Crisis Staff decisions that were

25 presented to the Assembly for verification or rejection?

Page 18713

1 A. The Assembly was supposed to confirm or reject all decisions

2 issued by the Crisis Staff in the meantime, in the interim, up to the

3 sitting of the Assembly. But the reason I remember this particular

4 decision is that I was deeply opposed to it.

5 Q. Do you recall who, in addition to the Assembly delegates, was

6 present on that occasion? And specifically, do you recall the presence of

7 various republic-level and regional figures?

8 A. I recall that no one from the republic level was present. As for

9 the regional level, this was a regional Assembly. In the meantime, I

10 recalled that Marinko Kontic voted in the same way as I did, against this

11 decision.

12 Q. Was this the kind of Assembly where issues other than the possible

13 verification of ARK Crisis Staff decisions were raised? For example,

14 where there were briefings about the political and security situation in

15 the region or in the republic?

16 A. I don't recall the contents of the discussion at that Assembly.

17 All I recall is this decision, which I opposed.

18 Q. Well, let's take a look at the meeting of the ARK Assembly on July

19 17th, 1992. That can be found in the binder at tab 26.

20 Mr. Kasagic, tab 26 contains the extract from the minutes of the

21 18th Session of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, held in

22 the great hall of the cultural centre, commencing at 1100 hours. As you

23 can see from the agenda on the first page, item number 4 was the

24 verification of the decisions and conclusions adopted by the Crisis Staff

25 and War Presidency of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

Page 18714

1 Now, it's correct, is it not, Mr. Kasagic, that the previous

2 session of the Assembly of the autonomous region had been held back in

3 April of 1992, that is, the one immediately preceding this one?

4 A. I don't know. I don't recall the other sessions.

5 Q. Does that generally conform to your recollection of the lapse

6 between the Assembly -- the meeting of the Assembly at roughly the

7 beginning of the war and then the next meeting after the conflict began?

8 I see you nodding your head, but you'll have to answer audibly.

9 A. I didn't pay a lot of attention to the work of the Assembly of the

10 ARK Krajina. I felt that this was a community of municipalities. When

11 the war began, it somehow lost its meaning.

12 Q. Mr. Kasagic --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. The simple question was whether the

14 lapse of time of approximately three months, whether that is consistent

15 with your memory. If so, please tell us. If not, then -- or if you don't

16 know, tell us.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall.


19 Q. Looking quickly at item 4, the verification of the decisions and

20 conclusions adopted by the Crisis Staff and War Presidency of the

21 Autonomous Region of Krajina, the minutes indicate that there was a debate

22 in which several Assembly members took part, and that all the decisions

23 and conclusions were verified; that of the 99 Assembly members present, 98

24 voted in favour of the decisions and conclusions and one Assembly member

25 was against the decisions and conclusions of the Crisis Staff and War

Page 18715

1 Presidency of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

2 A. I did notice that, yes. I see that it says so here, but that's

3 not correct, because I recall that four of us voted against.

4 Q. Well, you've indicated that there was a great deal you didn't

5 recall about the Assembly and that you didn't pay much attention, but

6 perhaps I can direct your attention to certain portions of the minutes

7 that may jog your recollection.

8 First of all, if we could look at the indications of attendance

9 that precedes the listing of the agenda items. We see here that the

10 session was attended by a number of persons who were not members of the

11 Assembly, including Minister of Defence Subotic, Velibor Ostojic, the

12 republic minister of information; Dragan Kalinic, the republic health

13 minister of RS; General Talic; Milan Martic, the minister of the interior

14 of the SRK; and Goran Hadzic, among others.

15 Mr. Kasagic, does that refresh your recollection about the

16 attendance of a number of dignitaries from both the republic level and

17 from outside RS at this session of the Assembly?

18 A. I really don't recall those persons. I was obsessed with this

19 decision, which was very wrong, and I concentrated on that.

20 Q. We also see that under item 1, Mr. Brdjanin, the president of the

21 War Presidency of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and Stojan Zupljanin,

22 who was the secretary of the Secretariat of the Interior and chief of the

23 security services centre of the ARK, gave reports on the current political

24 and security situation in the ARK, and that General Talic and Zivorad

25 Ninkovic and Mr. Martic advised the Assembly members of the military

Page 18716

1 operations of the VRS in the Posavina.

2 Can you tell us anything about the reports given by Mr. Brdjanin,

3 Mr. Zupljanin, General Talic, Ninkovic, or Martic on the occasion of this

4 Assembly session?

5 A. I really don't recall. It's been a long time. I don't remember

6 anything else apart from this decision, because I've talked about it so

7 often and I also had the Official Gazette number 5 of the ARK Krajina,

8 which published that decision.

9 Q. Did you raise objections to any other decision by the ARK Crisis

10 Staff other than the one that you've emphasised during the course of your

11 direct examination here in Court?

12 A. I was not on good terms with Brdjanin. I did not agree with him,

13 and I was often in conflict with him because of the things he was doing

14 which were detrimental to us. But I did not attend sessions of the ARK

15 Krajina.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kasagic, the question was quite simple: Whether

17 you objected to any other decision than you mentioned in your testimony in

18 chief where you specifically - and you repeated it this morning -

19 expressed your disagreement with one decision. So was there -- did you

20 raise any objection during the meeting, during this Assembly meeting,

21 against any other decision?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I neglected to ask that this -- that tab

24 26 be given a new exhibit number.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

Page 18717

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P990, Your Honours, and the English

2 translation P990.1.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


5 Q. And I can't recall offhand if you indicated one way or another

6 during your direct examination, but did you attend meetings of the ARK

7 Crisis Staff?

8 A. For the most part, no. This session is the one I remember. But

9 certainly not the Crisis Staff, no.

10 Q. You were aware, however, that presidents of municipalities within

11 the Autonomous Region of Krajina did attend Crisis Staff meetings, that

12 is, meetings of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

13 A. I didn't know.

14 Q. Let me direct your attention, if I may, to a press article from

15 Glas dated June 9th, 1992, which is located at tab 25.

16 MR. TIEGER: And Your Honour, that will also --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 25 will be P991, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


21 Q. I'll give you a moment to look at that, Mr. Kasagic, but I'll

22 indicate to you I'll be directing your attention to the second paragraph

23 after the heading, "Banja Luka, June 9th," which reflects a remark by

24 Mr. Brdjanin.

25 First of all, that second paragraph, which begins with the words

Page 18718

1 "I am amazed at this assessment by Kasagic," appears to reflect the

2 tension between you and Mr. Brdjanin that you referred to earlier. But

3 what I wanted specifically to direct your attention to was the third

4 sentence of that paragraph, in which Mr. Brdjanin states: "Secondly, at

5 every meeting of our Crisis Staff, which is held every Monday, all

6 presidents of municipal crisis staffs are present and everything is

7 discussed in full detail, and clearly."

8 A. Yes, I see that.

9 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you -- I presume you read this article on

10 June 9th, because it dealt, in part, with your relationship with Brdjanin.

11 Do you recall reading it?

12 A. I don't recall, no.

13 Q. And does seeing that article now, whether for the first time or

14 again after a lapse of some years, refresh your recollection that

15 presidents of municipal crisis staffs attended the regular meetings of the

16 ARK Crisis Staff?

17 A. No. This does not assist me, because I never knew they attended

18 the Crisis Staff. I only saw Brdjanin in all this.

19 MR. TIEGER: If I could have just one moment, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Kasagic, I was a little surprised to hear you insist so

21 emphatically that you never attended any meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff.

22 Let me direct your attention to an interview which you referred to in your

23 examination-in-chief with the Office of the Prosecutor that was conducted

24 on July 20th, 2001. I'm not going to ask you if you recall that, because

25 you referred to it in your examination-in-chief. That's located at tab

Page 18719

1 41.

2 MR. TIEGER: And that will need an exhibit number, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P992, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


7 Q. Mr. Kasagic, the document in front of you, I realise, is in

8 English. There is no B/C/S translation, so I will read out slowly the

9 relevant passage so that you can understand it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, may I take it that for the Defence, at

11 least, the audiotape is available so that they can check all of the

12 context? Because Mr. Krajisnik might not be able to follow.

13 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.


15 Mr. Josse, for your information, if there's any need, the

16 audiotape is there.

17 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour. It's a subject again I may

18 return to later.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.


21 Q. And looking at page 13 of that translation, the question was

22 asked: "You said that you attended at least one ARK Crisis Staff ... how

23 many ARK Crisis Staff meetings did you attend?" Answer: "Only that one

24 occasion."

25 And then you proceeded to indicate -- well, let me leave it with

Page 18720

1 that. Does that refresh your memory now, Mr. Kasagic, about your

2 attendance at an ARK Crisis Staff meeting?

3 A. But what I said, the session I attended, as far as I can remember,

4 was not a session of the Crisis Staff of the ARK Krajina; it was the staff

5 that was established after the SOS was established, and it was Predrag

6 Radic who was the president of that Crisis Staff, not Brdjanin. But

7 Brdjanin was present there.

8 I was at another such Crisis Staff meeting where I opposed -- and

9 there was a lower-level police chief there, Tutus Vladimir. We opposed

10 the establishment of a para-police which would control legality in the

11 Banja Luka municipality.

12 Q. So when the question was asked how many ARK Crisis Staff meetings

13 did you attend, you didn't mean the meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff; you

14 meant the meetings of another Crisis Staff. Is that the explanation?

15 A. Yes, that's right. Yes.

16 Q. And when you continued to discuss the meeting that you attended,

17 and now let's turn to page 16, you were asked the question at line 22:

18 "At the meeting that you attended, were there any decisions made?"

19 Answer: "I do remember, I opposed this," et cetera. And did Radoslav

20 Brdjanin preside over this meeting? "He was there. I think he was

21 chairing the meeting, but that's my recollection only."

22 Again, your explanation is that you're referring not to the ARK

23 Crisis Staff of which Mr. Brdjanin was president, but to another crisis

24 staff; correct?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 18721

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, just for the information of the Chamber,

2 on page 16, we find some grey text as well. Is that the text that has not

3 been immediately translated but is the result of later repeated listening

4 to the original tape and then filling in the gaps left by the interpreter

5 at that time?

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I believe that's either filling in the

7 gaps or providing an enhanced or clarified translation. But yes, the

8 Court's understanding is accurate; that is part of the subsequent review.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.


11 Q. Well, you've raised the -- you've raised Mr. Brdjanin's name and

12 we've discussed Mr. Brdjanin's name in connection with the Crisis Staff.

13 It's correct, isn't it, that Mr. Brdjanin publicly stated that only a

14 certain percentage, a certain limited percentage of Muslims would be

15 permitted to remain in the Banja Luka area; correct?

16 A. He mentioned a percentage of 5 per cent.

17 Q. And it's also correct that Mr. Brdjanin stated publicly, or

18 reported publicly, on an incident during which he passed by the houses of

19 Muslims and Croats who were making winter preparations, canning food and

20 so on, and said to them words to the effect, "Do you really think you're

21 going to spend the winter here?" And he stated that on TV; isn't that

22 right?

23 A. Yes, that is right.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Brdjanin was thought of as the main civilian authority

25 figure in the region; isn't that right?

Page 18722

1 A. Well, he caused a great deal of satisfaction among the citizens,

2 so many citizens came to see him, but I don't think that he could be

3 considered the main authority.

4 Q. Well, during your interview, you mentioned that people would come

5 to speak with Brdjanin, provide him with all sorts of information about

6 what was happening all over the area - and I'm referring now to page 22 -

7 and you were asked if you thought that was because he was the president of

8 the Crisis Staff, which people thought was the main authority in the

9 region, and you said yes. Is that essentially correct?

10 A. Well, in addition to that, he made some kind of frustrating

11 statements, and that was interesting, during the course of a war.

12 Q. I have no doubt that the remarks that we've just referred to and

13 the hate-filled comments that Mr. Brdjanin directed toward Muslims and

14 Croats enhanced his popularity, but my question is simple, and that is:

15 Is it correct that you said that people came to him because he was the

16 president of the Crisis Staff, which people thought of as the main

17 civilian authority in the region, and that that answer was accurate?

18 A. Well, I really don't know why they came to see him, because he was

19 the president of the Crisis Staff or for some other reasons, but indeed

20 they did come to see him.

21 Q. And indeed you did say during your interview that -- or you agreed

22 during your interview that at least one of the reasons was because he was

23 the president of the body that was seen as essentially the main authority

24 in the region.

25 A. That was considered the main authority, but the Assembly would

Page 18723

1 either confirm or reject those decisions, the Assembly of the RK Krajina.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Brdjanin was quite close to the republic leadership, and

3 particularly to Mr. Karadzic, to Dr. Karadzic; isn't that right?

4 A. Yes. He was one of the ministers, for civil engineering and

5 construction, that is.

6 Q. Yes. But even before -- I mean, the fact that he became a

7 minister after his tenure as president of the ARK Crisis Staff was a

8 reflection of the close relationship he had with Dr. Karadzic and the

9 republic leadership; isn't that correct?

10 A. I think that all the MPs were equally close to Karadzic and all

11 other leaders of Republika Srpska.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Kasagic, you know that that is an inaccurate, to say the

13 least, remark, if not logically impossible. But let me keep it simple.

14 Didn't you say in your interview, very directly, that Mr. Brdjanin was

15 close to Mr. Karadzic? And that's located at page 22. I'll repeat the

16 question and answer for you if you need me to.

17 A. Possibly I said that, but I'm not diminishing that in any way. I

18 mean, I'm not saying that he's the only one who was close to him, but he

19 was close to him.

20 Q. This Court has had the benefit of seeing and hearing a number of

21 telephone conversations between Mr. Brdjanin and Mr. Karadzic. I'm not

22 going to take you through those. There's one, for example, located in the

23 binders that took place on October 31st. That's tab 6.

24 MR. TIEGER: My mistake, Your Honour. It appears it's not listed

25 as being in evidence yet, so I presume it needs a new number.

Page 18724

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

2 MR. TIEGER: No. If the Court can give me one moment, Your

3 Honour.


5 MR. TIEGER: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 6, Your Honours, will be P993.


9 Q. And while I won't take you through the whole intercept, at the

10 bottom of page 3 of the English translation, and that would correspond to

11 your B/C/S version as well, we see Dr. Karadzic frustrated by

12 Mr. Brdjanin's constant contact with him and his constant request for

13 instructions and direction, and saying: "Come on, man, finish that work.

14 Don't call me for each petty thing. I'm not your nanny."

15 And that was an accurate reflection of the regular contact between

16 Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Brdjanin and the reliance of Mr. Brdjanin on him,

17 wasn't it?

18 A. I really don't know about their telephone contacts.

19 Q. But you were aware of their relationship, weren't you?

20 A. Well, I knew about it, as a member of parliament. Once Karadzic

21 said, perhaps jokingly, that we would propose him minister for minority

22 groups. Brdjanin, Karadzic, and I were present when he said that, but he

23 never officially proposed it.

24 Q. That was an amazingly cynical remark by Dr. Karadzic, wasn't it,

25 proposing Radoslav Brdjanin as the minister of minorities.

Page 18725

1 A. Yes. Yes. But he never did it officially. He just said it once

2 in the street, when we happened to meet up.

3 Q. And the joke was that Dr. Karadzic knew full well Mr. Brdjanin's

4 attitude and actions toward minorities; correct? That's the joke of that

5 remark; right?

6 A. That's the way I thought it was, because I never heard Radovan

7 Karadzic mention it again.

8 Q. Now, the reliance by ARK officials on Dr. Karadzic and the

9 republic leadership, reflected in the intercept we just looked at,

10 continued on into the beginning of and throughout -- into the beginning of

11 the war; let me just stop there.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Judge Hanoteau would like to ask a question.

13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Tieger, about this

14 conversation, I'd like to remain in the same paragraph you've quoted: [In

15 English] "Come on, man, finish that work. Don't call me for each petty

16 thing. I am not your nanny."

17 [Interpretation] I'm very interested in the following sentence,

18 and I'd like to have the view of the witness on the following sentence,

19 which reads as follows: [In English] "You have presidents of

20 municipalities, exercise that power through them."

21 [Interpretation] What does he mean here? And then the following

22 sentence reads as follows: [In English] "Until we've established

23 autonomy."

24 [Interpretation] According to you, what does this sentence mean?

25 [In English]: "You have the power in your hands, you have presidents of

Page 18726

1 municipalities, exercise that power through them."

2 [Interpretation] What did he mean by that? Do you have any idea?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was president of the Executive

4 Council of municipalities, so I cannot come to any big conclusions, but I

5 could have assumed that it had to do with the local authorities, not the

6 republican authorities, and that the RK Krajina could handle these affairs

7 at local level, not at republican level.

8 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

9 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I make an observation, if I may, at

10 this juncture? Immediately before Judge Hanoteau's question, Mr. Tieger

11 said: "Now, the reliance by ARK officials on Dr. Karadzic and the

12 republic leadership reflected in the intercept we just looked at

13 continued," et cetera.

14 Well, Your Honour, the witness hasn't looked at the intercept.

15 I've made this type of objection before. The Court may be familiar with

16 his intercept. It may previously have been adduced in evidence. The

17 Court will have an opportunity to look at this intercept in due course.

18 But if my learned friend is going to make an observation like that, then

19 really the witness needs to deal with the whole of it; otherwise, I submit

20 it's not fair.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

22 MR. TIEGER: I'll move on, Your Honour. It's not necessary.

23 JUDGE ORIE: There's some merit in what Mr. Josse says, that to

24 confront the witness with your understanding of the whole of the

25 transcript, which he could not review, and then ask questions, is perhaps

Page 18727

1 not very helpful for the Chamber to make the determinations it will have

2 to make.

3 MR. TIEGER: Well, in various ways, we all seem to be in

4 agreement, so I'll move on.

5 Q. The ARK leadership continued to turn to Dr. Karadzic for direction

6 after October 1991; correct?

7 A. I really don't know about that. I was not in the ARK leadership.

8 I didn't work with them. I was too busy as president of the Executive

9 Council.

10 Q. Well, we've looked at the spoken words, albeit in writing, of one

11 ARK leader. Let's turn now to a telephone intercept of another ARK leader

12 in April of 1992.

13 MR. TIEGER: And that can be found at tab 42.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

15 THE REGISTRAR: P994, Your Honours, and English translation will

16 be P994.1.


18 Q. Mr. Kasagic, P994 is a conversation between Vojislav Kupresanin

19 and General Kukanjac in April of 1992. Mr. Kupresanin was the president

20 of the ARK Assembly; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Let me direct your attention to a portion of the intercept found

23 at the top of page 2 of the English translation, which I believe can be

24 found at the top of page 3 of your translation, where Mr. Kupresanin says:

25 "Well, we must and now we are waiting for Karadzic to return from Europe

Page 18728

1 and tell us what we are to do next. I personally think, General, that I

2 won't do anything until he returns, when he comes whatever he tells us we

3 will do. He is now for us the supreme commander and we have no other

4 commander. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia on the one side and the

5 Serb people in the situation they are in, on the other. We have our

6 commander, it is that man, we must obey him, you understand us, we

7 understand you."

8 Mr. Kasagic, is it your testimony that you were unaware of the

9 relationship between the ARK leadership, including Mr. Kupresanin and Mr.

10 Brdjanin, and the republic leadership, and in particular, Dr. Karadzic?

11 You didn't know anything about it?

12 A. A special cooperation between the leadership and Karadzic, I

13 didn't know about that. I know that individually, as members of

14 parliament, they did cooperate with Karadzic, yes.

15 Q. But you were -- your testimony is you were unaware of this

16 hierarchical relationship. That's what you want to tell the Court.

17 A. I never understood the Krajina -- the ARK Krajina very seriously.

18 The republican organs, that's different. I took that seriously. But in

19 war, it was a renegade thing and they did their own things.

20 Q. Mr. Kasagic, I want to turn to a couple of other matters. During

21 the course of your examination-in-chief by Mr. Josse, you were asked what

22 you say to the suggestion that you, in conjunction with Mr. Zupljanin,

23 became very wealthy from the illegal smuggling of fuel, and you gave a

24 lengthy answer that included your comment that there were a lot of rumours

25 in the war, that someone said you had a son with a company somewhere,

Page 18729

1 although you don't have a son, that you didn't think Zupljanin was

2 involved in the smuggling of oil, and especially with you, et cetera, et

3 cetera.

4 But I'm not sure that the thrust of the question was actually

5 answered, and I just wanted some clarification on that.

6 Were you saying that you were never involved in the business of

7 oil or fuel with Mr. Zupljanin, or were you saying that whatever your

8 involvement with oil and fuel did not result in any significant

9 remuneration to you, or were you saying that you were never involved in

10 oil and fuel in any way, shape, or form during that period; that is, the

11 period 1991, 1992, 1993?

12 A. Personally, I was absolutely not involved in any way, nor was I

13 interested in that. The Executive Council made it possible to supply oil

14 to hospitals and schools, but that was the Executive Council, not Rajko

15 Kasagic. I guarantee that 1.000 per cent, that that's the way it was.

16 Q. And again, just so I understand this correctly, because I don't

17 want to have the same lack of clarity that prompted my question in the

18 first place: Does that mean that the Executive Council was involved in

19 some -- and that members of the Executive Council were involved in some

20 way in supplying oil or fuel, but that you personally never got involved

21 in it?

22 A. That's not the way I put it. The reserves of crude oil were

23 obtained by the Executive Council with the Serb Krajina and the Ministry

24 of Finance paid a company which made uniforms for the Serb Krajina in

25 Croatia. And as president of the Executive Council, I had so much

Page 18730

1 trouble --

2 Q. Sorry. You were starting to get to the answer. I'm sorry to

3 interrupt you. As president of the Executive Council ...

4 Continue.

5 A. Council. The Executive Council. Do you want me to continue?

6 Q. Well, maybe I can assist by -- in a further effort to narrow the

7 question. It's pretty simple. I just wanted to find out if your answer

8 was: Yes, the Executive Council got involved, but I, Rajko Kasagic, never

9 got involved in any way, or you had something else in mind.

10 A. Yes. The Executive Council participates in commodity reserves to

11 this present day. That is one of its obligations. But, as an individual,

12 no. Today it is the mayor who deals with these suppliers. It is no

13 longer the Executive Council.

14 Q. So I'm just trying to distinguish between -- I want to find out

15 your own physical efforts or lack of efforts. So does that mean you were

16 involved in the transport, provision, smuggling, or anything else, of oil

17 or fuel as a representative of the Executive Council, or that you were not

18 involved in that in any way, shape, or form? That's the question.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, could we split that up in transport,

20 provision, et cetera, and smuggling, which are, of course, two -- they can

21 the same, but I'd like to hear from the witness first whether he performed

22 any task in obtaining, transporting, et cetera.

23 Would you please answer that question, whether you had any duty in

24 that respect.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As an individual, separately, no.

Page 18731

1 JUDGE ORIE: But ex officio, so from your position, you had to

2 deal with obtaining reserves, getting it transported to the places where

3 it was needed, et cetera; is that correct?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As an individual, no.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I said "ex officio." That means from your position.

6 That is, if you are a member of the Executive Committee, that you, as a

7 member of the Executive Committee, that you were involved in the Executive

8 Committee arranging for obtaining, transporting, et cetera.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once the Executive Committee,

10 without my presence because I was in Belgrade, decided to obtain 3.000

11 tonnes of crude oil. So that as an individual, it was not my duty ex

12 officio to make that decision on my own; it was the collective organ that

13 made that decision.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Did that happen only once that a decision was made to

15 obtain large quantities of oil?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Crude oil on two occasions, and as

17 for oil, those are small commodity reserves and it was the vice-president

18 for the economy that was involved in that, not myself. It was his duty to

19 look after commodity reserves.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, second question: Did you ever learn about any

21 irregularity in obtaining oil? Because Mr. Tieger asked you about

22 smuggling. Smuggling, I take it, means that not the normal legal

23 formalities are fulfilled, that it is -- did you ever learn about

24 irregularities in that respect?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On behalf of the municipal organ,

Page 18732

1 nobody was ever said to participate in any irregular smuggling or

2 procurement of oil. I don't know as for what went on in town.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you whether you ever learned about it.

4 That's the first question. And then we might have some follow-up

5 questions as to in what capacity you learned about it, as a private

6 individual or as a -- I just want first to have my question answered

7 whether you learnt about anything that could be considered or was

8 considered by anyone to be irregular.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A lot of things are irregular in

10 war. There was an economic blockade. And persons had to obtain oil in

11 spite of this blockade.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking for an explanation why there was a

13 need to choose irregular ways. My question simply is whether you learned,

14 ever, about something that could be regarded as irregular in this respect.

15 Whether there was any need for it might be my next question. If you'd

16 like to add something to your answer, you'll be in a position to do that

17 if you request to do so. I just want an answer to my question.

18 Did you ever learn about irregularities?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't recall hearing about any

20 particular individual involved in irregularities.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking whether there was any individual

22 involved. I'm asking you whether you ever learned about irregularities.

23 And we'll come to the details later. I'd like to have an answer to my

24 question.

25 It seems, as a matter of fact, that you are trying to circumvent

Page 18733

1 my question by giving all kind of what you do not know and that you are

2 more or less not inclined to answer. Did you ever learn about

3 irregularities? Whether you knew about the persons who was involved, what

4 the need was, what the reason was, I'm not interested at this moment.

5 Did you ever learn about irregularities in the oil -- in obtaining

6 the oil?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to recall, not circumvent

8 your question, but I can't recall.

9 JUDGE ORIE: If you say, "I can't recall hearing about any

10 particular individual involved in irregularities," that answer implies,

11 more or less, that you learned about irregularities, although not about

12 the details, as far as particular individuals is concerned. Would you

13 agree with me?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I would agree with that, yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then tell us what you learned about irregularities.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learnt that there was smuggling of

17 oil and oil derivatives in boats across the river Drina. I learnt that

18 oil was being brought to the river Drina in barrels loaded on donkeys and

19 then transported to the Republika Srpska by boat, thus avoiding the

20 blockade.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

22 And may I ask you next time to answer right away my questions and

23 not to drag it along for two or three or four minutes before you tell us.

24 Give the answer to my questions.


Page 18734












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18735

1 Q. So if I understood you correctly, on two occasions the Executive

2 Committee, in your absence, made certain decisions about obtaining oil,

3 but that was the full extent of your involvement with the provision or

4 transport of oil; is that basically it?

5 A. It wasn't oil, it was mazut. Once I was absent and on the other

6 occasion I was present.

7 Q. And the full extent of your involvement, then, on the occasion

8 when you were present, was it simply to be present when the Executive

9 Committee made that decision or was there additional involvement in the

10 provision of mazut?

11 A. There was a previous agreement about this with the authorities of

12 the Serbian Krajina and then the Executive Committee was tasked with

13 obtaining several thousand tonnes, and this was paid for and delivered.

14 It was concerning Mazut.

15 Q. I thought it was a simple question, but maybe it wasn't. It's

16 basically this: Was the full extent of your involvement with the

17 provision of mazut that you raised your hand and voted along with others,

18 or however the decision was made, that such mazut should be provided?

19 A. I was also present in the negotiations with the authorities of the

20 Serbian Krajina in Croatia.

21 Q. Okay. So you went to Croatia to negotiate the provision and

22 supply of mazut to Banja Luka?

23 A. No. They came to Banja Luka.

24 Q. Okay. And does that, therefore, encompass the full extent of your

25 activities with respect to the provision of oil, or mazut?

Page 18736

1 A. That's all. In the other case, I was in Belgrade when the

2 Executive Committee decided on procuring mazut without my presence.

3 Q. Okay. So you were absent and then you came back and found out

4 they'd made this decision in your absence; is that it?

5 A. They called me on the phone to get my agreement, but we had no

6 mobile phones at the time. So in my absence, they obtained it; in the

7 meantime, there was a blockade. You couldn't pay the money back, and the

8 mazut couldn't be delivered. So I managed to get the money transferred to

9 a company in Backa Topola and we got flour for it instead of mazut.

10 Q. And when was that?

11 A. Right at the beginning. I think it was 1992.

12 Q. Mr. Kasagic, I'd like to take a look now at a few intercepted

13 telephone conversations, the first of which took place on November 13th,

14 1991, and that's tab 7.

15 MR. TIEGER: And that will need a new exhibit number.

16 I'm sorry, I was waiting for indication of the exhibit number.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P995, Your Honours, tab 7.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


21 Q. Mr. Kasagic, as you can see, this is a conversation between

22 Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Radic, the president of the Banja Luka Municipal

23 Assembly. And I want to direct your attention to a portion of that

24 conversation which begins at the bottom of page 6. And that's when

25 Mr. Radic begins talking about a problem with heating and the absence of

Page 18737

1 mazut.

2 Mr. Radic states: "... there will be no heating starting from

3 Sunday ..."

4 Dr. Karadzic says: "No heating what?"

5 Radic says: "I do not have, do not have mazut."

6 And Dr. Karadzic says: "Well, you will do that, mazut, through

7 Mirko Krajisnik."

8 Radic goes on to say: "I have reserves for two days ... And they

9 took it to work on that one month ago, and they have not done it, they

10 have not.

11 "They got the money from the municipality, and they have not done

12 anything."

13 Dr. Karadzic says: "Why did they get the money, how did they get

14 the money?"

15 Then although it says Karadzic in the English, it's, I think,

16 fairly clearly a response by Radic. He says: "Well, that's a question.

17 Kasagic, Andjelko --" That's Mr. Grahovac, correct, that reference to

18 Andjelko? "... that Mr. Savicic, they should explain where the money is,

19 what happened with it, and thirty thousand billion, man."

20 Then they continue. Dr. Karadzic provides a telephone number and

21 says, at the top of page 8: "But Mirko is in Belgrade today. Krajisnik

22 is in Belgrade today. ... Mirko Krajisnik, he will obtain everything for

23 you, the distribution, and everything will go, the papers, through him,

24 and everything."

25 He goes on to say: "And we made it centralised, until this

Page 18738

1 company, this, stock company is there, everything will go through this.

2 So, they do not have any chance to gain some personal profit. And here

3 there will be a profit of three dinars for our organs."

4 Radic says: "Thank God."

5 And Dr. Karadzic says: "And for the organs of the Party."

6 Mr. Kasagic, that appears to reflect some connection with or

7 involvement in the provision of mazut. What's Mr. Radic referring to?

8 What was the money, and what was it for, and what happened with it?

9 A. This is about 30 billion dinars. The Municipal Assembly approved

10 this money for the heating plant, in order to obtain the fuel. The money

11 was transferred to the account of the heating plant. The heating plant

12 designated Zoran Savicic to obtain the mazut. The heating plant and the

13 Municipal Assembly knew about this. He transferred the money to a

14 Belgrade company. What was its name now? It was a big Serbian company.

15 I can't recall the name now. But there was a blockade. Some of the mazut

16 arrived, but most of the money was returned to the Municipal Assembly.

17 Andjelko Grahovac knows full well that he threatened Savicic, telling him

18 to send the money back.

19 Q. Let's turn next to an intercept dated November 18th --

20 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask one question. You said, "There was a

21 blockade. Some of the mazut arrived." How did that arrive, despite the

22 blockade? Could you tell me?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It arrived from the Serb Krajina.

24 How they managed to get it, I don't know. Radovan Bajic, as the

25 vice-president of the Executive Committee, would know that better than me.

Page 18739

1 Although there was a blockade, there was also a de-blockade.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know whether finally it was legally

3 transported and delivered or whether there was any circumventing a

4 blockade involved?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it was legally obtained

6 from the Serbian Krajina, because there was no blockade between the

7 Serbian Krajina and the RSK.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


10 Q. Before I turn to the next intercept, I wanted to ask you a couple

11 of additional questions about this one. We see Dr. Karadzic directing

12 Mr. Radic to Mirko Krajisnik. Was Mirko Krajisnik associated with any

13 company involved in or connected with the provision of oil or fuel?

14 A. I don't know that.

15 Q. Do you know what the Boksit company was?

16 A. Boksit Milic? It was in Milici. Rajko Dukic was the director of

17 that company. It was a state-owned company, a big company.

18 Q. And Rajko Dukic is also the president of the SDS Executive

19 Committee; is that right?

20 A. He did hold a post. I don't know which one.

21 Q. Was Rajko Dukic or Boksit involved in the provision of mazut, or

22 oil, or fuel?

23 A. I can't know that. It was far away from Banja Luka municipality.

24 It's near the border with Serbia.

25 JUDGE ORIE: The question is not whether you can. Distance as

Page 18740

1 such does not prevent you from having any knowledge. Do I have to

2 understand your answer to be that you have no knowledge? Yes. Thank you.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


6 Q. Can we turn to an intercept located at tab 43, please.

7 MR. TIEGER: That will need a number, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P996, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.


12 Q. Mr. Kasagic, P996 is a conversation in January 1992 between Rajko

13 Dukic and Momcilo Krajisnik. As you can see at the beginning of the

14 conversation, Mr. Dukic says: "Good morning."

15 Mr. Krajisnik says: "Hey, hello Rajko."

16 And Mr. Dukic says: "I have had some conversations, won't talk

17 about it over the phone, but here with me is Kasagic and we're trying to

18 do some other things, but here's what I'm calling about."

19 And if we turn to page 2 of the English translation, and also page

20 2 of the B/C/S version before you, we can see that Mr. Krajisnik says:

21 "Let's go to the club. Where are you now?"

22 Mr. Dukic says: "We are here, and Kasagic is with me, looking for

23 mazut, fuck it. Banja Luka is freezing cold. No mazut."

24 Mr. Krajisnik says: "Okay. Check it out and we'll meet later."

25 Mr. Dukic says: "And Mirko is not here, so I took over his jobs.

Page 18741

1 I'm doing something."

2 Mr. Krajisnik says: "Good, okay."

3 Mr. Dukic says: "Here, still think over that variant."

4 Mr. Krajisnik says: "Okay, fine." And they say goodbye.

5 Is this another incident that your memory has failed you on, Mr.

6 Kasagic, meeting personally with Mr. Dukic in pursuit of mazut?

7 Mr. Dukic, the man about whom you said you had no idea whether he had any

8 involvement in the provision of such commodities?

9 A. But I don't remember this. When I was at Pale, I was with many

10 people, including Dukic. I don't recall discussing it with him. But

11 mazut was indispensable for the hospital. I don't even know that we

12 procured it through Dukic. As far as I can recall, we did not.

13 Q. So mazut was indispensable. You went out in pursuit of it, met

14 with Mr. Dukic, at least on this occasion, if not others, to get it, and

15 yet this pursuit of this indispensable commodity has somehow completely

16 escaped your recollection, or at least that's what you want the Court to

17 believe; is that it?

18 A. I can't, because these were all jobs for the republican

19 government, not for the Executive Committee. However, I was out on the

20 ground and I knew what the problems were.

21 Q. And according to you, obtaining oil was indispensable, and yet you

22 have assured the Court 1.000 per cent that you never had any personal

23 involvement in it. That's not true, is it?

24 A. Not financially, but in discussions, there were discussions. But

25 I came out with an empty pocket in 1996, and I had to enrol in a Ph.D.

Page 18742

1 course in order to get financial assistance, because I had empty pockets.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kasagic, it takes us quite some time to get from

3 one point, where you said once oil -- I think you were talking about crude

4 oil -- was ordered when I was not there; and once I was present when the

5 person in charge of economics said that we had to decide on that, he

6 decided; and I had no further involvement whatsoever.

7 After half an hour, the story is quite different. Why didn't you

8 say right from the beginning: Of course I was involved in trying to find

9 that oil and mazut, because it was of major importance for the hospital,

10 but whoever gained any money out of that, not me personally, although I

11 was really involved in trying to get it.

12 Why didn't you say that at the beginning? Why does it take us

13 half an hour? Why does it take me ten minutes to get you to -- that you

14 knew about smuggling? I'm not saying that you were involved. I just

15 wanted to learn whether you ever heard about it. Why don't you say

16 directly these kind of things? It's not wrong to seek oil for a hospital,

17 is it?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's only that

19 additional questions additionally jog my memory. I don't really remember

20 this with Dukic now. I know where funds were involved, and where they

21 were not, I cannot recall exactly now.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think I jogged your memory on the smuggling

23 issue. I didn't know anything about it. I couldn't give you any

24 information about it. It was only by asking five times the same question

25 that you clearly did not answer. And when your answers clearly indicated

Page 18743

1 that you knew more but you are not very much inclined to tell, and only

2 confronted with that attitude, you finally came up with barrels of oil

3 going over a river. I'm not blaming anyone for, but we just want to have

4 the information.

5 So you're now instructed to answer questions as they are put to

6 you, and not only to tell the truth that you find most relevant, but the

7 whole truth in relation to the question put to you, and not after the

8 fifth question, but immediately after the first question.

9 We'll adjourn until five minutes -- until 11.00.

10 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I deal with one matter in the

11 absence of the witness, please?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll ask Madam Usher to escort the

13 witness out of the courtroom.

14 We'll adjourn, but Mr. Josse wanted to address us on a matter

15 unknown to us yet.

16 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Kasagic.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.

19 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I concede that the witness was not

20 answering all the questions directly, but whether what Your Honour just

21 said to the witness was entirely fair is perhaps a moot point. I mean,

22 earlier on, he made it clear that he wasn't a thousand per cent involved.

23 He then went on to -- he was then asked another question by Mr. Tieger,

24 which ended: "But you personally never got involved with it?" And then

25 he said, "That's not the way I put it." And then he began to explain the

Page 18744

1 reserves of crude oil were obtained by the Executive Council, and then we

2 came to the point where Mr. Tieger interrupted him.

3 Now, I've already conceded, Your Honour - and I'm deliberately not

4 doing this in the presence of the witness - that he wasn't giving, on

5 occasions, direct answers to the questions that were being put to him.

6 But in my submission, what Your Honour has just said to him doesn't

7 accurately reflect 100 per cent the question and answers at that

8 particular juncture of his testimony.

9 JUDGE ORIE: What exactly -- what exactly do you have in mind?

10 Because I take it serious, Mr. Josse, if you --

11 MR. JOSSE: About page 19.

12 JUDGE ORIE: But what I said which was unfair, the exact point,

13 because then I'll ... I asked him why he did not give -- I said that it

14 took us quite some time to get from the one point that he said there was

15 only -- I wasn't there. People took positions and then ... What's the

16 unfair -- where did I say something, and what exactly? I take it that

17 you're referring to pages 30 and 31.

18 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Because I take it seriously. If I would unfairly

20 treat the witness, I would correct that. But tell me exactly where --

21 what line I spoke was unfair to the witness.

22 MR. JOSSE: Particularly the words: "And I had no further

23 involvement whatsoever."

24 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't that how it started in the beginning? Didn't

25 he say, "Well, the only thing I know is that once they ordered 300 tonnes,

Page 18745

1 I think, in --" I only pointed at how it started. I didn't say that

2 during that half an hour, we did not slowly get to the new situation. I

3 depicted there the situation as we perceived it, on the basis of the

4 answers to the first questions.

5 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I put it like this: That it's quite clear

6 from the demeanour and tenor of the witness's evidence from the outset

7 that he's at great pains to say that he didn't profit personally from any

8 of this.

9 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine.

10 MR. JOSSE: He also made it clear, albeit in a painful way, I

11 concede, that he had some knowledge of his municipality being involved in

12 the attaining of fuel.


14 MR. JOSSE: I'm not going to persist with the point, Your Honour.

15 And I'm not asking Your Honour to say anything more to him, because I do

16 accept that the witness needed some cajoling in relation to answering

17 these questions in a direct manner. I accept that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I'll review it carefully and my -- I'll

19 endeavour that what I say to a witness is not for 95 or 98 true but for

20 the full hundred per cent. That's what I'm aiming at.

21 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I just have one brief observation, and

23 that is that I think Mr. Josse was inadvertently inaccurate when he

24 recounted the witness's testimony as being that he wasn't involved a

25 thousand per cent. It's a little bit different, which was he said he

Page 18746

1 wasn't involved in any way, and he guaranteed that 1.000 per cent. It's a

2 slight difference.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't want to comment on that, because I noticed

4 it as well.

5 Let's -- I think we could all agree that the cross-examination of

6 the witness might be more fruitful if direct answers were given to the

7 questions put to him.

8 We'll adjourn until 5 minutes past 11.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed, but I'd first inform the

13 parties that, where I said yesterday that I would inform one waiting

14 witness not later than 11.00, that he doesn't have to remain standby this

15 morning.

16 MR. JOSSE: I helpfully received that message and have asked one

17 of our staff to pass the message on to VWS. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

19 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Kasagic, returning briefly to the Autonomous Region of

21 Krajina. The Court has previously received in evidence an order dated May

22 4th, 1992, from the Autonomous Region of Krajina, that was issued pursuant

23 to the decision of the Ministry of National Defence of the Serbian

24 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That republic-level decision was issued

25 16 April 1992.

Page 18747

1 It's correct that the Autonomous Region of Krajina received and

2 implemented orders and directives from the republic level during 1992;

3 correct?

4 A. I don't know about that, but that probably was the case, because

5 they cooperated.

6 Q. If I may, let me turn your attention to two additional exhibits

7 located at tabs 24 and 43, I believe. Correction, that's 44.

8 JUDGE ORIE: 24 needs an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P997, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. And 44 would need --

11 THE REGISTRAR: P998, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


15 Q. Let me ask you to look at those quickly, Mr. Kasagic. First, P997

16 is a public announcement dated 6 June 1992, signed by the president of the

17 Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, Vojo Kupresanin, which

18 states that: "On behalf of the Serbian people of the Krajina, the

19 Presidency of the Autonomous Region of Krajina hereby renounces the

20 legitimacy of Nenad Kecmanovic and Mirko Pejanovic to represent the

21 Serbian people in any capacity."

22 It goes on to say: "The Serbian people is proud of its heroes to

23 the same extent that it detests traitors and degenerates such as the two

24 mentioned." And then it disassociates itself from them.

25 And then if you could look quickly at tab 44, you'll see contained

Page 18748

1 there a telegram log of telegrams transmitted between April and November

2 1992. And if we look at page 4 of the English translation, at the bottom,

3 and page -- the page designated 00583895 at the top of the B/C/S

4 translation, you'll see an entry for a telegram sent on 5 June 1992 at

5 1210 hours. The summary is: "Disassociation from the participation of

6 Pejanovic and Kecmanovic in the BH Presidency." The sender is the

7 government. And among the recipients is the autonomous district or region

8 in Banja Luka.

9 That's another reflection of an order or directive sent by the

10 republic level to the Autonomous Region of Krajina that was implemented;

11 correct, Mr. Kasagic?

12 A. I don't remember this, but I know that we did not hear about the

13 work of these two in the Presidency in that period at all; whether they

14 were doing something, whether they were making any decisions, we had no

15 idea. I really had no idea.

16 Q. Well, that's in part the point, that although you didn't know

17 about it in Krajina, the government in Pale did and so they issued this

18 instruction via telegram and it was implemented by Mr. Kupresanin; right?

19 A. I don't know about that.

20 Q. Let me move on, then, to --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, it's not entirely clear to me, because in

22 your question you interpret more or less this tab 44 by saying that this

23 is another example of an order or directive, where from what I see at this

24 moment, it could, well, be information -- because I do understand that it

25 has to do with the functioning of two persons in the BH Presidency, which

Page 18749

1 I would be inclined to understand as something that happened on the

2 highest level and of which the lower levels were informed, rather than --

3 I have some difficulties in understanding how this should be implemented

4 on the lower levels.

5 MR. TIEGER: I understand, Your Honour. I appreciate the

6 distinction.


8 MR. TIEGER: Let me clarify that.



11 Q. That's another example of the republic level providing information

12 about a position to be taken to the regions which was acted upon or

13 followed up on by the regions; isn't that right?

14 A. It should be right.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, perhaps if you would have an additional

16 mouse pad to put under the microphone, because I don't want Ms. Javier to

17 type and at the same time I think it's --

18 MR. TIEGER: Give us a moment and we'll see if we have -- I think

19 the problem has been resolved by the usher, but maybe we can address that

20 a different way.



23 Q. Mr. Kasagic, I wanted next to address with you an issue that was

24 raised during the course of your direct examination, and that's the

25 question of what you knew or heard about crimes committed against the

Page 18750

1 Muslim and Croat population in 1992.

2 A. You mean in Banja Luka or generally speaking?

3 Q. The question that was raised was what you knew as a general

4 matter. In fact, the question was: "Were you aware of any discussion --"

5 among the questions asked in connection with that issue was: "Were you

6 aware of any discussion, informally, amongst deputies, about crimes that

7 were being committed in Bosnia?" And you said: "Publicly, at the

8 Assembly session, no such thing was discussed. However, from the Prijedor

9 deputies, I learnt that there was a public camp in Prijedor - Keraterm, I

10 believe it was called - and that was the information I had."

11 First of all, Mr. Kasagic, what did you learn about the Keraterm

12 camp in Prijedor?

13 A. I learned that it was mostly Muslims who were in their camp, and I

14 know that one man from Banja Luka happened to be in that camp, and when he

15 was freed, he came back. His brother was my neighbour. What happened

16 there exactly is something I don't know, because I was never in that camp

17 myself. I heard that there were about 7.000 people there.

18 Q. Now, I take it from your answer, although I guess you can clarify

19 it if I'm mistaken, that because you were asked about crimes committed in

20 Bosnia and responded, in part, about Keraterm, that you learned something

21 to the effect that crimes were committed against the Muslim detainees in

22 Keraterm.

23 A. I did not hear anything beyond that, what happened to them, but I

24 also heard that there were some camps, a few camps, in Sarajevo. What

25 happened to the prisoners is something I do not know.

Page 18751

1 Q. Now, I actually don't recall asking about Sarajevo, so I'll ask

2 you to concentrate on the area we're discussing.

3 Did you receive any information informally to the effect that the

4 detainees in Keraterm were civilians, to the effect that the conditions in

5 Keraterm were inhumane or brutal, or that crimes had been committed in

6 connection with the operation of the Keraterm camp?

7 A. I heard that they were civilians. Which crimes were committed, I

8 don't know, but I heard that some people were killed. How many were

9 killed, I don't know.

10 Q. Did you hear that from deputies from Prijedor?

11 A. I think that Srdjo talked about that, Srdjan. I forgot his last

12 name.

13 Q. Was Keraterm the only detention facility that you heard anything

14 about during 1992 from your fellow deputies or from anyone else?

15 A. I heard about Keraterm from the media. Now, was it somewhere else

16 too, I don't know, but I can't remember. Keraterm was often mentioned, so

17 that's how I remembered.

18 Q. First of all, the question was a little bit different. It was

19 whether or not Keraterm was the only detention facility about which you've

20 heard. You've already told us you heard about Keraterm, and in fact you

21 already told us you heard it informally from the Prijedor deputies. Now I

22 want to know if you heard about other detention facilities from anyone

23 else during 1992.

24 A. I do not recall.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, could we, just to avoid whatever

Page 18752

1 understanding ...

2 When Mr. Tieger asks you about detention facilities, would you

3 please include in your answer centres, camps, whatever name it had, but

4 where you received information that a larger number of peoples were

5 together, not in their own homes, but gathered at a certain place.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's only Prijedor that I heard of,

7 as far as a large group of people are concerned.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Smaller groups you heard about?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was mention that there were

10 some individuals in the camp of Manjaca, in Banja Luka. That was a

11 military camp. How many people were there, I don't know.

12 JUDGE ORIE: No other -- that's in Banja Luka. That's not in

13 Prijedor. No other centres - well, whatever name; camps, facilities - in

14 the Prijedor area?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And that's true for the whole of 1992?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


20 Q. I may return to the question of your informal discussions with

21 your fellow deputies or other representatives of Republika Srpska, but

22 first I wanted to turn to your remark during your direct examination that

23 publicly at the Assembly sessions no such thing was discussed, meaning no

24 -- there was no discussion about crimes that were being committed in

25 Bosnia. I'm referring to page 74 of the LiveNote of your direct

Page 18753

1 examination.

2 Mr. Kasagic, you may or may not be aware of the fact that this

3 Court has had an opportunity to receive and review transcripts of many of

4 the Assembly sessions of the Bosnian Serb Assembly from 1991 and 1992 and

5 onward, and is therefore familiar with a great many things that were said

6 during the course of the Assembly sessions. I want to draw your attention

7 to some of those, to see if that somehow jogs your memory about the kinds

8 of things that were discussed, the kinds of issues that were raised at the

9 Assembly sessions in 1992.

10 And just as a few examples, on May 12th, 1992, the minister of

11 health, Dragan Kalinic, spoke about how perfidious the enemy is, how they

12 cannot be trusted until they are physically, militarily, destroyed and

13 crushed, which of course implies eliminating and liquidating their key

14 people. He also spoke about the military hospital in Sarajevo and told

15 the Assembly that he was for the destruction of the hospital so that the

16 enemy has nowhere to go for medical help.

17 At the same session, Mr. Vjestica talked about the fact that on

18 the right bank of the Una River there were no more Muslims in the Serbian

19 municipality of Bosanska Krupa, that they had been evacuated, and asked

20 rhetorically: "Will they have a place to return to? I think it is

21 unlikely, after our president told us the happy news that the right bank

22 of the Una is the border."

23 Mr. Radic, on that -- at that same session, spoke about shelling

24 and destroying towns, and referred to the destruction of one third of the

25 town.

Page 18754

1 At the 17th Session, in July of 1992, a delegate spoke about his

2 reaction to hearing -- to a visit by Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik in

3 Ilidza and how the Bosnian Serbs were able to extend their territory,

4 driving the Muslims out of the territories where they had actually been a

5 majority. At the same session, Mr. Dukic, to whom we had occasion to

6 refer earlier, talked about having expelled all Muslim judges from

7 Vlasenica, Bratunac, and Zvornik, talked about the situation in Birac,

8 which had 120.000 Muslims, but he hoped that had been at least halved.

9 At the same session, Mr. Nedic --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm not -- you gave quite a lot of

11 examples. I can imagine that you would find a few more, but perhaps we

12 could ask the witness, unless you think that the complete quotations

13 are --

14 MR. TIEGER: Two more, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Two more. Yes. Make it quick, then, please.


17 Q. Again, in the July session, Mr. Milanovic spoke about the problem

18 of captured persons and spoke about hundreds and thousands of prisoners.

19 And Mr. Nedic and Mr. Karadzic spoke about the Muslims having been planted

20 to the Serbs as a people whose executioners they were to be, or that the

21 conflict was roused in order to eliminate Muslims.

22 Now, as the Court indicated, I could continue for quite some time,

23 but I want to ask you now, Mr. Kasagic, having heard just a sampling of

24 those references, if that refreshes your recollection that the subject of

25 crimes against Muslims and Croats was publicly discussed, or at least

Page 18755

1 openly discussed, at Assembly sessions, some of which may have been

2 closed, among the delegates, and that you were, therefore, aware of that.

3 A. I do not wish to hide anything, but I really do not remember that.

4 I'd really like to say everything, to the extent to which I was involved,

5 but it has been 13 years, and I cannot remember everything.

6 Q. Mr. Kasagic, let me make it clear that I am not asking you to

7 recall in precise detail the comments of each deputy or the specific

8 information imparted. What I'm asking you is: During the course of your

9 attendance at these Assembly sessions - and you told us you considered it

10 an obligation to attend every Assembly session - isn't it true that, as a

11 general matter, you learned that Muslims and Croats were being forcibly

12 expelled from Republika Srpska?

13 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. And as a legalist, didn't you make an effort to talk to your

15 fellow deputies to see how that could be stopped? You didn't do that, did

16 you?

17 A. It wasn't any good. In Nova Gradiska, it was asked why there were

18 Muslims and Croats in Banja Luka, and I went out and I said: You who live

19 in villages don't know what it's like to live in a city. There is 58.000

20 Muslims and Croats. The international community would not allow that kind

21 of attitude towards these people. It would be a column from Banja Luka

22 all the way up to Gradiska.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Kasagic, again, this is not an answer to

24 the question. I do understand that you want to draw our attention to the

25 fact that perhaps in Banja Luka things went differently and that there was

Page 18756

1 no way that you would drive out 58.000 people. But the question was a

2 totally different one. The question was: When you heard in the Assembly

3 about forcible expulsion, not from Banja Luka but that that happened, the

4 question was whether you did talk to your fellow deputies to see how that

5 could be stopped. That was the question.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I did not talk to them

7 and that Marinko Kontic, one deputy, said before the war started: We will

8 have to see how we're going to live with these people, and it is our

9 destiny to live with these people.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Judge Hanoteau has a question for you.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] You told us that you heard that

13 Muslims had been expelled by force. That's what you've said. For you,

14 did it imply that there were detention camps set up where these people

15 were sent after they were expelled?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know of camps in Prijedor, but I

17 haven't heard of any others.

18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] You are not answering my

19 question.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of any camps. If they

21 were expelled, it doesn't mean that they were detained in camps.

22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. And, Mr. Kasagic, since you learned about this at the sessions of

Page 18757

1 the Assembly, you weren't the only one who knew about this; all the

2 representatives of the Serbian Republic knew about this, didn't they, knew

3 about the forcible expulsion of Muslims and Croats?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let me turn to a different -- slightly different issue at the

6 moment, and I want to turn my attention next to -- strike that.

7 MR. TIEGER: If I could just have a moment.

8 Q. I'm going to turn my attention next to two issues that you raised.

9 The first is the question you were asked during the course of your

10 examination about a document that was referred to as the Variant A and B

11 document, which you indicated you saw for the first time in The Hague, and

12 said that you didn't remember hearing of it in 1992, and if you did, you

13 forgot. Now --

14 A. That's correct. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. And again, Mr. Kasagic, do you think it's possible if I directed

16 your attention to some occasions on which you heard references to Variant

17 A and B before coming to The Hague, that it might jog your memory about

18 whether or not you ever heard of this document?

19 A. Maybe when I hear you jog my memory.

20 Q. At the 6th Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, on January 26th,

21 1992, Mr. Cizmovic spoke. Were you present at that session? And he spoke

22 about some issues related to what the Serbian -- the Bosnian Serb

23 authorities needed to do next. And he said: "To solve this problem, I

24 propose that we begin with an urgent operationalisation and a declaration

25 on the establishment and promulgation of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

Page 18758












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18759

1 and Herzegovina. Tasks set out in the instructions of 19 December 1991

2 should be carried out."

3 A. If this was in Holiday Inn, I remember that Assembly session.

4 That's when the Council of Ministers was elected.

5 Q. And do you remember now Mr. Cizmovic making a direct and explicit

6 reference to the 19 December 1991 instructions?

7 A. No. No, I don't recall any individual contributions to the

8 discussion.

9 Q. Do you recall now that by at least that time, you were aware of

10 the existence of the Variant A and B document, the 19 December 1991

11 instructions?

12 A. It was not of significance in actual life, so I don't recall it.

13 Q. Well, that's a pretty sweeping statement, Mr. Kasagic, for the

14 president of the Executive Committee in Banja Luka. Or were you aware of

15 the extent to which the Variant A and B document was received and recorded

16 and reflected in the minutes of municipalities all over the Serbian

17 Republic? Do you have that information? Are you able to tell the Court

18 that you know the extent to which, if at all, other municipalities

19 received and recorded this document?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now, I've already referred you to what happened in January 26th,

22 when Mr. Cizmovic said: "The tasks set out in the instructions of 19

23 December 1991 should be carried out." Let me turn your attention next to

24 an extended session of the SDS Main and Executive Boards on 14 February

25 1992, during which Dr. Karadzic spoke. Do you recall being present at

Page 18760

1 that session?

2 A. At the SDS organs at republic level, I didn't attend, because I

3 was not a member of the Executive Board of the SDS at republican level

4 but, rather, at the level of Banja Luka municipality.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kasagic, the question was about the Main and

6 Executive Boards. You said you were not a member of the Executive Board.

7 Were you not a member of the Main Board?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was a member of the Executive

9 Board of Banja Luka municipality.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.

11 Mr. Tieger.


13 Q. At the beginning of the session, Mr. Kasagic, Mr. Dukic indicates

14 that among those invited were the presidents of municipal executive

15 committees. Does that jog your recollection about whether or not you

16 attended this session?

17 A. No. I certainly never attended a single session of the Main

18 Board.

19 Q. Is that something else you guarantee 1.000 per cent?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't guarantee.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... your next

23 question.

24 MR. TIEGER: Okay.

25 Q. Mr. Kasagic, let me show you the next exhibit. It's found at tab

Page 18761

1 45.

2 As you can see, Mr. Kasagic, this is a receipt from the Holiday

3 Inn for February 14th and 15th, 1992, indicating that you stayed there.

4 Name: Kasagic, SDS Assembly, paid by SDS.

5 So in view of the fact that you were in Sarajevo on that date,

6 staying at the Holiday Inn, where this meeting was held, and had been

7 invited ex officio to this meeting, does that now jog your recollection

8 about your presence?

9 A. I recall that I was at the Assembly held in the Holiday Inn of the

10 National Assembly of Republika Srpska. It's possible I may have been

11 there too, but I don't recall it.

12 Q. Well, I'm going to turn your attention to some of the references

13 during the course of that session.

14 MR. TIEGER: And if the witness could have the B/C/S in front of

15 him. This is a transcript of remarks at the February 14th session, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And that's tab --?

18 MR. TIEGER: 13. And for the record, Your Honour, that's P67,

19 intercept tab 27.

20 Q. Mr. Kasagic, you indicated that you had --

21 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour?

22 JUDGE ORIE: A question arises in respect of the Holiday Inn bill

23 and receipt. It said that it's 64A, but that's, as far as I understand,

24 footnotes to the Treanor binder. So I don't think, then, that the actual

25 documents are in evidence. So that's footnote material. Yes, okay. Then

Page 18762

1 that's clear. Please proceed. I apologise. We're at tab 13.


3 Q. Mr. Kasagic, I think you indicated that you had a chance to look

4 at the Variant A and B document, that Mr. Josse or someone else showed it

5 to you when you arrived in The Hague, so I take it, therefore, you could

6 see that it was broken down into two variants, hence its name, Variant A

7 and B, and into two stages or levels for the stages of implementation.

8 Let me now turn your attention to four separate references to

9 stage 2. First, at page 5 and 6 of the English translation. Dr. Karadzic

10 says: "But also, that a bird cannot come in without your, without your

11 knowledge. That is, if you remember, who keeps that in mind, or maybe not

12 on his person, a stage number 2. There is, remember, you know what I am

13 talking about? - We know. Yes. That is, therefore, the stage number 2,

14 the second stage in smaller or bigger variations, but you have to

15 implement that slowly now, to have absolute control who is travelling

16 along your roads, what are they transporting --"

17 MR. JOSSE: The witness hasn't got the place, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's just try to assist the witness in finding

19 the right place.

20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that's found at 04002200, which is --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Kasagic, you would see that on the top of

22 the page, last four digits, 2200.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've found it.


25 Q. And again, on the very next page, again approximately in the

Page 18763

1 middle of the page, Dr. Karadzic says, during the course of a reference to

2 the BiH government referendum: "The second thing that is very important,

3 it gives us full moral right not to accept any decision resulting from the

4 referendum and it gives us right to introduce the stage number 2 in

5 functioning of your area ..."

6 The next reference I want to turn your attention to during the

7 course of Dr. Karadzic's speech is found at page 17 of the English

8 translation and page 2208 of your version, toward the bottom of the page.

9 Again, another reference to stage number 2. Dr. Karadzic says: "The

10 stage number 2 should also be converted, the one we've talked about, the

11 one you have if not here, at home."

12 And finally, on page 24 of the English translation, and page 2214

13 of your version, at the top of the page, Dr. Karadzic says: "That is why

14 we called you today, to intensify, to introduce the second level and to

15 intensify the functioning of the government at any cost and on every

16 single millimetre of our territory."

17 And finally, Mr. Kasagic, lest there be any lingering question

18 about your attendance at that session, let me just direct your attention

19 quickly to page 26 of the English translation and page 2215 of your

20 version, where there's a reference to what you and Mr. Kupresanin had

21 said.

22 Mr. Kasagic, do you now recall, having looked at the multiple

23 references at a meeting which, as Dr. Karadzic indicated, was called to

24 intensify and to introduce the second level, do you now recall that you

25 were aware of the 19 December 1991 instructions, a Variant A and B

Page 18764

1 document, in 1992?

2 A. I see that I was present, according to this, but whether it was

3 the Assembly or the party, I don't know. I know I was in the Holiday Inn.

4 I don't know the date. And I recall my contribution to the discussion, if

5 that's the date, but I don't know the date.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kasagic, that was not the question. At least,

7 the -- the question was whether you now recall that you were aware of the

8 19 December 1991 instructions, a Variant A and B document. That was the

9 question.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. Really, no.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just directly now ask you: It seems that a

12 first stage and a second-stage issue appears prominently during this

13 meeting. So I'm not talking about 19th of December and what's Variant A,

14 Variant B. Do you remember that there was such a thing as something to be

15 developed in two stages, which seems to prominently appear in the record

16 of this meeting?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't remember.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any recollection on being at this

19 meeting, not understanding at all what Mr. Karadzic was talking about,

20 about these two stages?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I attended a meeting at the Holiday

22 Inn. Whether it was this meeting or not, I don't know.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, two minutes ago you said it appears that it was

24 on that meeting, on the basis of the record, and you have been confronted

25 with the, well, hotel bills of that same day. So now, were you at that

Page 18765

1 meeting or were you not at that meeting? Or is it that you say: Well, I

2 have to conclude on the basis of these papers that I have been at that

3 meeting?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can conclude on the basis of these

5 papers that I attended the meeting.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, again my question, which was: Do you have any

7 recollection of being at a meeting where Mr. Karadzic even explained why

8 that meeting was called, that is, to -- second stage to be implemented, to

9 be started, and you sitting there having no clue about what he was talking

10 about?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember at the meeting you attended that

14 Mr. Karadzic did give a speech?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We all spoke. How much he spoke and

16 what he said, I don't recall.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


19 Q. Mr. Kasagic, there continued to be references to the Variant A and

20 B document, to the instructions of 19 December 1991, after 1992. And let

21 me give you two examples of that at Assembly sessions where you were

22 present.

23 First, at the 46th Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, held on

24 the 9th through the 11th and the 23rd of November, 1994, where

25 Dr. Karadzic was talking about the instructions A and B and clearly making

Page 18766

1 references to how important they were. He said: "Please remember what it

2 was like before the war. Everything was perfectly clear to us in those

3 municipalities where we were in the majority and in those where we were in

4 the minority. You remember instructions A and instructions B? We had

5 crisis staffs which clearly knew that they were in power there. They

6 might have made mistakes, but they were the authorities."

7 A. I cannot recall any individual items on the agenda. I'm not

8 trying to conceal anything; I simply don't recall.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember that at any of these later Assembly

10 meetings any reference was made to something like A and B or first and

11 second stage?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't recall A and B. I only

13 recall the goals.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I did not -- yes. And what were the goals?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that Karadzic propounded

16 the goals, more at the initiative of the army, which said they didn't know

17 what they were fighting for, and he said it was for the demarcation

18 between the other two communities, that the internal borders had not been

19 properly established, and the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina had already been

20 recognised. There was mention of Sarajevo and the division of Sarajevo.

21 I understood this all to be part of the work of the Badinter Commission.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


24 Q. Let me pursue that a bit. You're not suggesting that it was the

25 Badinter Commission representatives who decided that Bosnia should be

Page 18767

1 ethnically divided and who decided that the borders for Republika Srpska

2 should be the Una, the Neretva, and the Sava, and the Drina?

3 A. No. It was the Lisbon Agreement, in fact. I misspoke. As far as

4 I can recall, it was not Badinter. His name was something else. He was

5 the president, or rather, the Prime Minister of Portugal.

6 Q. Okay. You're talking about Mr. Cutileiro; is that right?

7 A. Yes. Yes. Cutileiro. That's right.

8 Q. And let's be clear on what you're saying. Are you suggesting that

9 the goals, the strategic goals of Republika Srpska, were formulated by

10 Mr. Cutileiro and that he decided that Bosnia should be ethnically

11 divided? Is that your position?

12 A. He wasn't dividing us from each other, but there was division into

13 regions. This was before the war and the representatives of all three

14 parties agreed to it; Izetbegovic and I think Karadzic for the Serbs, and

15 Kljuic, in Lisbon. It was signed in Lisbon, but however, when the party

16 representatives returned to Sarajevo, Mr. Izetbegovic went back on the

17 agreement. It had to do with the regionalisation of Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina.

19 Q. So there was no agreement. And then the Bosnian Serb authorities

20 began to implement, through their military forces, the goals of ethnically

21 dividing Bosnia and Herzegovina and the goals of demarcating the

22 territory?

23 A. Demarcating the territory, yes, but I did not understand it to be

24 ethnic demarcation, because no one forbade anyone to live in other

25 territories though belonging to a different group.

Page 18768

1 Q. It included claiming and attempting to gain control over

2 territories on which the Bosnian Serbs were a minority because, according

3 to the Bosnian Serb authorities, of the genocide of World War II; isn't

4 that right?

5 A. Genocide in the Second World War was mentioned, but to what extent

6 control, or gaining control, was talked about, I really cannot say.

7 Q. The territory of Republika Srpska was meant to include, according

8 to the goals that you mentioned, and according to the constitution, land

9 on which the Serbs were a minority and the Muslims were a majority, and

10 the reason given was because of the genocide of World War II; isn't that

11 right?

12 A. I don't know about that.

13 Q. You never heard of that, that provision in the constitution or

14 that general goal to ensure that territory on which the Serbs were a

15 minority because of World War II became part of Republika Srpska?

16 A. It was mentioned, and Article 1 of the constitution said that

17 Republika Srpska is the state of the Serbian people and that there was

18 sovereignty involved, but the international community did not recognise

19 that, so all of it was abolished altogether. So elements of statehood

20 were abolished, rather.

21 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, because that's not a direct

22 answer to the question: Were you aware that territories where the Serbs

23 were a minority were claimed to be a part of Republika Srpska?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Is it your testimony that in all the municipalities

Page 18769

1 which were considered by the Republika Srpska to be within its territory,

2 that in all these municipalities before the war, the Serbs were in a

3 majority?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. In some, they were even a

5 minority.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So when I said: "Were you aware that territories

7 where the Serbs were a minority were claimed to be part of Republika

8 Srpska," the answer is that for some of the municipalities that would be

9 true?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it seemed to be that way, in

11 the case of some municipalities, because closer to Belgrade, in the area

12 of Posavina, some municipalities had a Muslim or a Croat majority.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It didn't seem to be that way; it was that way,

14 wasn't it?

15 Yes. I see you're nodding yes. That's on the record now.

16 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

17 Perhaps I add one thing, Mr. Kasagic. There's no need --

18 Mr. Kasagic -- please, if you could look in my direction, Mr. Kasagic.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sorry.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kasagic, there's no need to take a defensive

21 attitude. We'd just like to know what you know and what you experienced,

22 and just to tell us. If you take a defensive approach, to the extent that

23 you are thinking about what you find most relevant to tell us, then we

24 might miss useful information which could be in favour of either party.

25 As a legalist, please make it possible for us, as Judges, to give the

Page 18770

1 right decision at the end of this trial, and by being open and frank, we

2 might better understand what it was all about and to better be capable of

3 giving of right decisions.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


6 Q. Well, Mr. Kasagic, you clarified to some extent, after initially

7 denying that territories on which Serbs were a minority, allegedly because

8 of the genocide of World War II, was claimed by Republika Srpska, but in

9 fact you've been well aware of that for a long time and publicly made that

10 assertion; isn't that right?

11 A. If there is a written record of that, then yes, I know that Serbs

12 were a majority in Bihac, but they became a minority. But in Posavina, I

13 believe the situation was different vis-a-vis the Serbs.

14 Q. Well, Mr. Kasagic, let me put it this way: During your

15 examination-in-chief, you referred to yourself, I think more than once, as

16 a legalist, drew attention to humanitarian gestures on your part, and

17 indicated that you joined the SDS only because you wanted to fight

18 communism, I think you said. That doesn't really tell the whole story,

19 does it, Mr. Kasagic? In fact, you were somebody who was proud of the SDS

20 programme and who, among other things, proudly proclaimed the goal of

21 recovering territory on which Serbs had been subjected to genocide,

22 resulting in the expulsion, the forcible expulsion, of the Muslim

23 population from those parts; isn't that right? I'm not saying you believe

24 it now, but you believed it then and said it then.

25 A. After these territories were taken, Serbs primarily stayed and

Page 18771

1 Muslims and Croats moved out. That's as far as Posavina was concerned.

2 What I said, I don't remember, but that's the way it was.

3 Q. You were among those people during the course of the war who spoke

4 about the Muslims and Croats as enemies, who talked about the genocide

5 perpetrated in World War II, the need to have that territory for Republika

6 Srpska, weren't you?

7 A. Well, it's possible that I said that, but I don't remember all the

8 things that I said. It's possible that I said it, but I never believed

9 that other people should be expelled from there.

10 Q. Well, you were present at the Assembly sessions and the gatherings

11 where Dr. Karadzic said that you couldn't live with Muslims, and spoke

12 about the demographic threat presented by the Muslims, weren't you?

13 A. There were such speeches.

14 Q. And that meant, as Brdjanin said, that the Muslim population had

15 to be reduced to a certain percentage, so that Republika Srpska could be

16 secure, didn't it?

17 A. That's roughly the way it was, yes. The figure of 5 per cent was

18 bandied about, where national minorities would not threaten the majority

19 nation. That's the same thing that was being said in Croatia too.

20 Q. Let me turn to the next exhibit.

21 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one additional question. You said -- the

22 question was that 5 per cent, or lower, would be a situation in which

23 there was no threat to a majority any more, and you said, when you were

24 asked if Mr. Brdjanin said that the Muslim population had to be reduced,

25 so that Republika Srpska could be secure ... In most of the

Page 18772

1 municipalities, the Muslim part of the population was, even if it was a

2 minority, was still well above 5 per cent. How did you then understand

3 this to take place, reduction below 5 per cent? Do I have to understand

4 this in relation to what you earlier testified, that forcible expulsion

5 was what took place?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Banja Luka had 14.8 Muslims and 14.9

7 per cent Croats, so --

8 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm not talking just about Banja Luka. When you

9 said when you understood that there was forcible expulsion, you remember

10 talking about an Assembly meeting, and that was not just Banja Luka. I'm

11 talking about the area of Republika Srpska.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the figure of 5 per cent is being

13 mentioned, then the surplus, so to speak, has to be moved out, and also

14 the economy was on the decline. Only 10 per cent of the economy of Banja

15 Luka was functioning, so there was no employment.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So you understood, when you said that you learned in

17 the Assembly that there was forcible expulsion, you understood this to be

18 that part of the population had to be moved out in order to reduce it

19 under 5 per cent -- part of the Muslim population.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never understood it that way, that

21 only 5 per cent would remain of other ethnic groups on that territory, or

22 on any territory. I thought that everybody would go back after the war.

23 Today, in the twenty-first century, that is impossible to achieve.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but as long as the war lasted, they, as you

25 said, that the surplus above 5 per cent had to be moved out.

Page 18773

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Armed people were expelling them

2 from their apartments, but there were no decisions that they had to be

3 expelled.

4 JUDGE ORIE: No, but it was the factual situation, and did you

5 understand this in the context of reducing --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- the number of the Muslim population, the

8 percentage of Muslim population below what was acceptable for security

9 reasons?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that it was temporary,

11 a temporary move, but it is certain that some people will never come back

12 to Banja Luka, including Serbs. They stayed abroad. Their children don't

13 want to go back.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you have been confronted, and this Chamber has

15 received some evidence of public statements or non-public conversations in

16 which it was said that one could not live together with the Muslims. How

17 should the Chamber understand your testimony, saying that this was just

18 temporary, in view of such statements that one could not live together

19 with the Muslims?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I, as a lawyer, know about the

21 universal declaration of human rights, that private property cannot be

22 seized, and that everybody has the right to return to their own private

23 property.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And what about the forcible expulsion of citizens of

25 a certain ethnicity? Falls that within the scope of the universal

Page 18774

1 declaration of human rights, even if it's temporary, well, let's say for a

2 couple of years?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't fit into it at all. It

4 is a bare minimum, as far as the universal declaration is concerned.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you told us that although the forcible removal

6 took place, that it was not on the basis of a decision, that, as far as I

7 understand you, it just happened.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, that was my understanding

9 too, yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You also told us that you learned in the Assembly, in

11 the Republican Assembly, about forcible expulsion of Muslims, that you

12 understood that that was the case. Do you remember any decision or any

13 initiative within the Assembly saying: People are forcibly expelled?

14 That's without any decision, so we should now take a decision that it

15 should immediately start to happen?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not only that I heard about it

17 in the Assembly, but I also saw it in Gornji Vakuf, for example. I saw

18 that civilians were being expelled by soldiers to the Federation. At the

19 Assembly, I do not remember that there were decisions to put that to a

20 stop.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So your testimony is that you learned about such

22 forcible expulsion in the Assembly, you saw it with your own eyes, and

23 that, nevertheless, no effective initiatives were taken to put an end to

24 it; is that a correct understanding of your testimony?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You understood that right, but it

Page 18775

1 was only peace that could have brought that to an end.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger. Oh, I'm looking at the

3 clock. We are at a time to have a break, but I do not know whether -- I

4 shouldn't ask you whether it's a suitable moment, because I interrupted

5 your questioning.

6 MR. TIEGER: I'm grateful, Your Honour, but that's fine.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you give us any estimate on --

8 MR. TIEGER: We'll certainly consume the rest of the day. During

9 the recess I'll do my best to -- well, I'm frankly not optimistic about

10 completing, but I'll try to move as quickly as I can.

11 JUDGE ORIE: If perhaps Madam Usher could escort the witness out

12 of the courtroom, and we'll have a break for some 20 minutes, Mr. Kasagic.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, at a certain moment I wondered what the

15 use was of putting again to the witness what on paper he had attended and

16 where he had no recollection of many, many things that were said there.

17 And perhaps I added to it as well, but there comes a moment when the

18 impression of the testimony takes its form.

19 MR. TIEGER: I appreciate the guidance, Your Honour, and I'll try

20 to proceed accordingly.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Josse.

22 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, there's at least one procedural matter

23 that I need to mention today.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is it about scheduling in the near future?

25 MR. JOSSE: It is.

Page 18776

1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll do it after the break.

2 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 1.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber apologises for the late start, but it had

8 to do something with what you requested, Mr. Josse.

9 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Kasagic, I indicated before the recess that I wanted to move

12 to the next exhibit, which is a videotape of a mass rally that took place

13 on 21 August 1994. It's found at tab 32, and was previously admitted as

14 P357.

15 Mr. Kasagic, I'll mention to you, as the Court is already aware,

16 that this is a rally at which, among others, Mr. Brdjanin spoke, saying,

17 among other things, "It was the obligation of Serbs over the next hundred

18 years to wipe their feet from the foul non-Christians who had befouled

19 this soil of ours."

20 And at the end of the rally Mr. Krajisnik and Dr. Karadzic speak,

21 but you were also a speaker at that rally and I'd like, in connection with

22 some of the earlier comments you made, I'd like to play your remarks on

23 that occasion now.

24 For the benefit of the interpreters, those can be found at

25 00:39:11. At least, that's where they begin.

Page 18777

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Brothers and sisters, God be with

3 you! The people who are with God - God is with them! Those people cannot

4 lose. Not from the most difficult edicts they are sending us from the

5 West ... the same edicts which after the Berlin Congress expelled the

6 Turkish ... trousers from these areas and introduced Viennese

7 bureaucratese. Today they want to achieve the opposite. But we know all

8 the evil with which they threaten us. They cannot deceive us again. We

9 forgave, we forgot and that's why we are repeating our history. We no

10 longer have the right to do that, because of our children, because of our

11 grandfathers, because of our own selves. They offer us peace, but that

12 peace, according to them, turns out to be a Muslim Islamic republic. They

13 want that republic on our lands, with their army leader, a Bosnian army

14 general tells the army: 'Your state stretches as far as your boot does.'

15 And why should we behave differently? We have our state, we are defending

16 it, we have established our borders and we shall defend them. They tell

17 us - we do not recognise genocide, genocide. That is inscribed in our

18 constitution. Our lands are in all those areas and territories where they

19 perpetrated genocide against our people. Accordingly, we understand each

20 other extremely well. But those under the Vatican's influence do not

21 understand us. But we have agreed and we only have to achieve and sign

22 that peace in which the Serbs will be equal and that the Serbs will never

23 accept tutelage. It seems they don't understand us ... but we're not

24 asking them to understand us. That is why they are trying us in their

25 courts, that is why they are burning our truth, but that fire will not

Page 18778

1 burn because of our truth, nor will our truth burn in that fire. Those

2 judges of theirs cannot talk with us. They don't know how, they don't

3 have the facts on their side. We have joined the land and the sky, so no

4 earthly power, not even NATO's aircraft, can do anything to us. They

5 think ... they think we have stumbled, allegedly the Serbs have

6 quarrelled, but they forget or perhaps don't know, from their student who

7 wrote Jablan, a Viennese student, that the bull only wins after it

8 stumbles. We have won and have established our border.

9 "Brothers and sisters, I listened to the news today, they are

10 coming from France and offering a half-baked peace to our brothers in

11 Serbia ... in Serbia. They said they would gradually lift sanctions only

12 in the sphere of culture and sports and the airport in Belgrade, only on

13 condition that NATO forces, or rather their forces come to the banks of

14 the Drina. Accordingly, they are not offering us peace. We must not be

15 angry with our brothers who are like an older brother, entitled to be

16 angry with us at this moment. But we know our lives better, and we know

17 what the Muslims and Croats are offering us in a community with them.

18 They turned us into Turks and converted us to their religion, they impaled

19 us, they gouged out our eyes. We want our own house, around which the

20 winds will play freely, and we shall live freely in that house of ours.

21 We can do that, brothers and sisters, and we have won that right and we

22 are Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox and justice is on our side. Thank you.

23 And good luck."


25 Q. Mr. Kasagic, I'll just confirm quickly before I move on, in the

Page 18779

1 interests of time, that was you speaking; correct?

2 A. Yes, it was.

3 Q. I may return to that if there is time, but in the interest of

4 concluding, I want to move next to the subject of the Presidency and

5 something you discussed during your examination-in-chief. You were asked

6 about the notion of an Extended Presidency and what that meant to you. In

7 fairness to you, before I proceed, I want to indicate that the subject

8 about which I'm speaking has been referred to variously as the Extended

9 Presidency or Expanded Presidency or War Presidency, so I want to know if,

10 in light of any of those terms, it changes your answers about your

11 awareness of that body in 1992.

12 A. The War Presidency can exist only if a state of war has been

13 declared. I asked that this be done. A state of war was declared in

14 April, and had the War Presidency decided that, there would have been no

15 Assembly then.

16 Q. Well, in fact, what you're saying, Mr. Kasagic, is that a War

17 Presidency can exist legally, or under the constitution, only if a state

18 of war has been declared, but obviously a body such as that can exist in

19 reality, irrespective of any declaration; correct? It can simply be

20 formed even though it doesn't necessarily satisfy, in a punctilious way,

21 the legal requirement. It's just a matter of logic; right?

22 A. But it does not have legal significance. It was not legally

23 significant. It decided on nothing. The Assembly made decisions. The

24 Assembly was significant. And had there been a War Presidency, then there

25 would have been no Assembly.

Page 18780

1 Q. Well, I understand that you are a self-declared legalist, and I

2 see that you're pointing us to, again, the legal significance. But let me

3 turn now to the reality of the situation in 1992, including a reality that

4 was made known to the members of the Assembly, including yourself.

5 First of all, as a preliminary matter, I think we can agree that

6 you never attended any sessions of the Presidency; right?

7 A. As far as I can recall, no, I didn't.

8 Q. And during 1992, I take it you did not review any minutes of the

9 sessions of the Presidency?

10 A. I don't recall reviewing them.

11 Q. Okay. So you don't know that before the 31st of May, when

12 Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Djeric attended Presidency sessions, there was a

13 clear distinction between the members of the Presidency and those two as

14 people in attendance, and after June 1st the minutes referred to them as

15 members of the Presidency. You didn't know that, did you?

16 A. I don't recall that.

17 Q. Okay. And you didn't know that the minutes of the Presidency also

18 contain an explicit reference to the Presidency in expanded composition.

19 That's something else you weren't aware of; right?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, if the witness has not reviewed them, he

21 seems to have no knowledge whatever about it, I wonder whether it's --

22 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. It does seem to run afoul of the

23 Court's earlier guidance and I apologise for that.

24 Q. Let me move then to something you do know about, and that's the

25 discussion of this issue at the November 1992 session of the Assembly held

Page 18781

1 in Zvornik. That's the 22nd Session of the Assembly.

2 Now, at that session, the subject of whether or not the War

3 Presidency should continue was a topic of discussion. Do you remember

4 that?

5 A. At that Assembly session, I remember what I said, and I think that

6 Mr. Karadzic was elected president of the Presidency of Republika Srpska,

7 and there were two vice-presidents; Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic. It was

8 a three-member Presidency.

9 Q. Well, let's keep our eye on the ball for a moment, because my

10 question focussed on the discussion concerning the continued existence of

11 the War Presidency. And in that connection, let me remind you about the

12 comments made by Mr. Trbojevic and Dr. Karadzic at that session.

13 First of all, Mr. Trbojevic raised the issue and said that:

14 "First of all, we have set up a para-system of power, the public and

15 so-called legal 'war state Presidency' is a body that doesn't exist in the

16 constitution."

17 Okay. So that issue was before the Assembly. Do you remember

18 Mr. Trbojevic's comments or not?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And then Dr. Karadzic responded, and he said: "I was all in

21 favour of the Presidency, instead of a president, because there's a lot of

22 work to be done, and if Mr. Koljevic and I are busy, we have Biljana, and

23 even if she's busy, then we have Mr. Krajisnik. We've never come into

24 conflict in the Presidency, without me or any of us being ready to give

25 in. We put all ideas on the table, discuss them, and when we decide which

Page 18782












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18783

1 one of us is the best, we go on."

2 Do you remember those comments?

3 A. No. I don't remember the discussion at all, only my contribution

4 to the discussion.

5 Q. Do you remember Mr. Maksimovic and Mr. Jokanovic both referring to

6 the fact that they had been appointed as commissioners by the War

7 Presidency of Republika Srpska? Do you remember that?

8 A. No.

9 Q. All right.

10 MR. TIEGER: And finally, although I appreciate the fact that the

11 witness isn't aware of it, I would refer the Court to the minutes of the

12 Presidency session on 30 November 1992, which concluded that -- which

13 directed itself to a discussion of the War Presidencies and the expanded

14 or republic level War Presidency and said: "If these institutions are

15 retained, then the constitution must be amended."

16 Q. Now, Mr. Kasagic, I recognise there's a great deal that you don't

17 recall, but maybe this is an issue that comes close enough to some of your

18 responsibilities that you may recall this in connection with the War

19 Presidency. And in that connection, I refer you to the 20th Session of

20 the Assembly, held in September 1992, during which there was reference to

21 the constitutional commission, or constitutional issues committee. You

22 were a member of that committee; right?

23 A. No. I think I was a member of the constitutional commission, or

24 rather, I was a member of the constitutional commission.

25 Q. In 1992?

Page 18784

1 A. I was appointed right at the beginning.

2 Q. Now, do you recall the members of that commission in 1992, and

3 specifically, the people who were elected or re-elected in September of

4 1992? And if you don't, I can repeat their names for you.

5 A. I only recall the name of Slobodan Bijelic. I don't recall any

6 others. Of him, I'm sure.

7 Q. According to the minutes of that session, the following people

8 were members of that session -- members of that commission, elected or

9 re-elected at that session. The chairman was Mr. Krajisnik; the deputy

10 chairman was Mr. Cancar; and the members included Mr. Maksimovic,

11 Mr. Bijelic, as you noted, yourself, Mr. Spremo, Mr. Trbojevic,

12 Mr. Kalinic, Mr. Buha, Mr. Pejovic, and Mr. Milanovic.

13 Now, does that conform, first of all, with your recollection of

14 the membership of the commission?

15 A. Yes. In the case of some of them, Milanovic, yes; Maksimovic,

16 yes; Trbojevic, I recall him very little. The ones I remember best are

17 Slobodan Bijelic and now Milanovic.

18 Q. And at that session, Mr. Krajisnik said -- talking about the

19 commissions, and he said: "We asked the constitutional commission to

20 include a government and a Presidency member, and that was how the

21 commission was formed."

22 Okay. So the commission was to include a Presidency member and a

23 government member. Do you remember that?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. Well, the Assembly transcript indicates such. Now, the

Page 18785

1 members of government who were on the commission included Mr. Trbojevic

2 and Mr. Kalinic; correct? They were members of government?

3 A. Yes, they were members of the government.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Milanovic, Mr. Pejovic, Mr. Buha, Mr. Kalinic,

5 Mr. Trbojevic too, Mr. Spremo, yourself, Mr. Bijelic, Mr. Maksimovic,

6 Mr. Cancar, none of those were members of the Presidency, were they?

7 A. They were deputies.

8 Q. It was Mr. Krajisnik who was the member of the Presidency who was

9 included on the Presidency commission, as was ordained; isn't that right?

10 A. He was the president of the Assembly. As for the rest, I don't

11 know.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kasagic, is your testimony that you have no

13 recollection that Mr. Krajisnik was a member of this constitutional

14 commission? Because you mentioned a lot of the others that came back into

15 your mind now. You did not mention Mr. Krajisnik. Now you're

16 specifically asked whether Mr. Krajisnik, as a Presidency member - that's

17 the question by Mr. Tieger - and then you said: No, he was chairman of

18 the Assembly.

19 Was he a member of that committee?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know he was a member of the

21 commission when I was a member of the commission. Whether it was in that

22 year, I don't know.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It takes us again quite some time to get to what

24 seems perhaps an important point.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

Page 18786


2 Q. Mr. Kasagic, you told us earlier about what you learned in 1992

3 about crimes committed against Muslims and Croats in general, and

4 specifically, in Keraterm, in Prijedor. I want to turn your attention

5 then to the next exhibit, which is number -- in tab 40. Before I do, let

6 me ask you, Mr. -- with them, I'll turn you to tab 40 first.

7 MR. TIEGER: And that needs an exhibit number, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P999, Your Honours.


11 Q. P999, Mr. Kasagic, is a SRNA article from 21 January 1996, at the

12 time you were Prime Minister of Republika Srpska, shortly after the

13 Srebrenica massacre. And it reflects, Mr. Kasagic, your denial of claims

14 by Muslims and by international circles about alleged crimes against

15 Muslims in the area of Srebrenica and Prijedor: "He said that there was

16 no evidence for such claims."

17 Mr. Kasagic, it's true that you denied, in 1996, that there was

18 any evidence for crimes against Muslims in Srebrenica and in Prijedor;

19 isn't that right?

20 A. That's what I heard over Radio Banja Luka, that I denied that, but

21 I actually never denied it. I actually told Slobodan Milosevic that a

22 crime had been committed in Srebrenica, because Elizabeth Wren had been in

23 the area and had noticed some dead bodies of young men in the woods there.

24 Q. Can you point to any public statement in which you, as Prime

25 Minister of Republika Srpska, acknowledged the Srebrenica massacre at or

Page 18787

1 shortly after, or at any time in the general time frame that they

2 occurred, and when the international outcry took place?

3 A. Mr. Leighton Smith, an admiral of the British navy, sought the

4 support of the government to go and search the area. I agreed and I said,

5 If you need a police escort, police support, that's fine. And he said

6 that they didn't need it, and he went to the area to investigate it. He

7 didn't tell me what he found.

8 Q. I'm not going to pursue this too far, in light of the time, but

9 that's quite a different thing; cooperating with international community

10 demands for access to the area is quite a different thing from a

11 governmental cover-up and broad-based denial that such crimes took place.

12 Isn't it --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger -- of course I will give you an

14 opportunity to -- the witness -- you confront him with what seems to be a

15 press publication. The witness denied that he made such a statement.

16 MR. TIEGER: Let me ask a foundational question, if I may, Your

17 Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.


20 Q. Isn't it --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse -- I told Mr. Josse that he would have an

22 opportunity. Does it cover more or less the issue?

23 MR. JOSSE: No. Simply this: The previous question was about a

24 broad-based denial. It wasn't about a governmental cover-up. That's

25 really taking the matter rather further, but no doubt my learned friend

Page 18788

1 will deal with it.



4 Q. Mr. Kasagic, isn't it correct that the article before us now, from

5 SRNA, reflected the official reaction and position of the government of

6 Republika Srpska until very recently? My question concerns the last

7 paragraph of that article, in which you are --

8 MR. JOSSE: I'm sorry to object. What's the point of that

9 question, with respect? If it relates to the witness, I understand, but

10 generally about the government of Republika Srpska up to today, how does

11 that help, I submit?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just read the question again.

13 MR. TIEGER: I'm asking the Prime Minister at the time.

14 MR. JOSSE: Yes. I've got no objection if it relates to him at

15 the time.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So "until very recently" is at the time. Yes.

17 Could you tell us whether this reflects the official reaction you

18 gave at the time.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My official reaction was that I did

20 not know about that, that I heard from representatives of the

21 international community that there had been crimes. And I could not say

22 that there hadn't been any crimes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the question is not whether you could have said

24 it. The question is whether you said it. But I do understand from your

25 answer that this article does not reflect your words that you did not deny

Page 18789

1 that it took place, but you just didn't know.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't deny it. I did not deny

3 it. I didn't know. I didn't know, and I couldn't deny it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, sometimes if people do not know things, they

5 nevertheless deny it. But that's a theoretical part.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


8 Q. Well, the article indicates that you said there was no evidence

9 for such claims. Is that what you're saying now, that at the time you

10 didn't know whether there was such evidence, and that's the statement you

11 issued?

12 A. I did not know, and I never challenged it, the crimes of

13 Srebrenica.

14 JUDGE ORIE: That's not an answer to your question, Mr. Tieger.

15 [Inaudible] ... the witness still thinks now that there's no evidence.

16 Please, next question.


18 Q. Is that what you were saying at the time, that as far as you knew,

19 there was no evidence for such claims about crimes in Srebrenica and

20 Prijedor?

21 A. I don't know whether I said at all that there wasn't any evidence.

22 I did not say that there wasn't any evidence about Prijedor. I had heard

23 that there had been some killings, and I cannot say, as far as Srebrenica

24 is concerned, when I heard about some crimes having been committed, that I

25 denied that they were committed.

Page 18790

1 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the record, Mr. Tieger, on -- I don't dare

2 to mention the page, because I was interrupted for a short moment, but

3 when I said that's not an answer to your question, Mr. Tieger, and then

4 the witness still thinks now that there's no evidence, that's not -- that

5 does not reflect what I said. I said that your question was whether the

6 witness now still thinks that there's no evidence. That's different from

7 what appears on the transcript. And it's a sensitive issue, so therefore

8 I correct it.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Did you say in 1995, Mr. Kasagic, after the indictment of Radovan

12 Karadzic and General Mladic, that a trial of those two would amount to a

13 trial of the entire Serbian people for alleged crimes?

14 A. It is certain that I said that the trial of the top people of a

15 nation is a trial of that nation.

16 Q. Okay.

17 MR. TIEGER: And in that regard, I would refer the Court to tab

18 36. That will need an exhibit number, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 36, Your Honours, will be P1000.


22 Q. And that article reflects the comment to which we just referred;

23 right? That would be at the first paragraph.

24 A. That's what it says. Well, I don't know whether those were my

25 exact words or not. I don't know whether I said every one of these words,

Page 18791

1 but that was the way I was thinking. I don't know if I said the word

2 "vicious."

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, the Chamber needs five minutes for a

4 procedural issue still. I take it that you are about to finish your

5 cross-examination. At the same time, I do not know whether Mr. Josse has

6 -- whether there's any need to re-examine the witness, because he would

7 have to stay if --

8 MR. JOSSE: I have instructions to re-examine quite extensively.

9 Could I speak to Mr. Krajisnik, Your Honour?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. And at the same time, you are

11 sufficiently experienced to assess the present situation.

12 MR. JOSSE: Could Your Honour give me a moment?


14 [Defence counsel confer]

15 MR. JOSSE: I haven't wasted the Court's time. There's one issue

16 that I've been asked to re-examine on, out of quite a number. It won't

17 take very long. That's what I'm requesting.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger, how much time would you still need?

19 MR. TIEGER: I have just two matters to raise, Your Honour, which

20 I thought would take about ten minutes. It was my estimate before.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then how much time would you need, Mr. Josse?

22 MR. JOSSE: Well, for that one issue, shall we say five minutes.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm now addressing the interpreters and the

25 technicians: That would mean that approximately we would need another 15

Page 18792

1 minutes. I would need five minutes for a procedural issue. The Chamber

2 has no further questions, at least as it stands now. Would it be

3 possible, because for the Bench it would be difficult to resume later this

4 day. We have considered that before, but there is a problem, a practical

5 problem. Would it be possible to continue for another -- yes, I see --

6 thank you very much for your cooperation.

7 Mr. Tieger, you have ten more minutes.

8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm grateful.

9 Q. Mr. Kasagic, although you've come here and tried to present

10 Mr. Krajisnik as essentially the equivalent of you, just another deputy,

11 the fact of the matter is that outside of Court, on other occasions,

12 you've been comfortable referring to him as a leader; isn't that right?

13 A. The people accepted him as a leader. The people loved him.

14 That's true.

15 Q. A leader in a key position, with all the power that that entailed;

16 correct?

17 A. I didn't think about whether he was in a key position or not.

18 Q. Well, let me just direct your attention to two passages and then

19 we'll conclude. The first are remarks that you made at the 50th Assembly

20 Session. That's found at tab 34. And I believe in the version before

21 you, Mr. Kasagic, that's found at 00845889.

22 And on that occasion, you said: "The hardest job, in my opinion,

23 is done by those who are in the trenches and those who are in the key

24 positions, in the highest political posts. I do not mean that I am one of

25 them. I mean those who are at the highest level. For example, I look at

Page 18793

1 my friend Momo from a distance. Three years ago he had a few grey hairs

2 and now I see he is completely grey."

3 That was a reference in the Assembly to Mr. Krajisnik; correct?

4 A. That's the way it looks, that it was a reference to him.

5 Q. And finally, I want to direct your attention to a couple of

6 comments you made during your interview in 2001. First of all, it's a

7 minor matter on page 40, beginning at line 24, when asked about visits by

8 Mr. Krajisnik to Banja Luka, you said: "If he would be coming, he'd be

9 coming together with Radovan Karadzic. They would usually be coming

10 together."

11 But more to the point we're talking about now, I'd like to turn

12 your attention to a passage at page 43, where you were asked --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you haven't mentioned the tab in which we

14 have to look.

15 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry. 41.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

17 MR. TIEGER: Again, it's page 43 at tab 41.

18 Q. You were asked: "Who was responsible for that kind of fear that

19 existed that would cause people to give up everything they owned to move

20 to another country?"

21 And you began by saying: "There was a strong propaganda drive and

22 that instilled this fear into the people." And then you continued to the

23 part that is pertinent to us at the moment: "It was all part of a

24 propaganda effort and campaign which was designed with the idea to instil

25 fear into people. Unfortunately, leading politicians in these parts were

Page 18794

1 people who had prison term record. Tudjman and Izetbegovic, because of

2 their national, nationalistic views, Krajisnik and Karadzic because of

3 economic crime. They all wanted to be kings of their own small little

4 areas and you could achieve that only by launching a propaganda campaign

5 and lies."

6 Those were your comments in 2001, isn't that right, Mr. Kasagic?

7 A. Yes. But at that time, I didn't have the information that the

8 proceedings against Karadzic and Krajisnik had been stopped.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that that's not the core of your question,

10 but that it was not a reference to the prison term record, but on what had

11 happened, rather than whether the people that you mentioned had ever been

12 in prison. Is that correct, Mr. Tieger, that that was your question?

13 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So forget about whether there was any incorrectness,

15 but apart from the new knowledge you have on the proceedings against

16 Mr. Krajisnik or Mr. Karadzic, apart from that, is this what your comment

17 was at that time?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That was my knowledge and that

19 means that that's what I said.

20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. I have nothing further.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, there was one matter you wanted to raise

22 with the witness. Please proceed.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Josse:

24 Q. Mr. Kasagic, somewhat earlier you said that you learned various

25 things at the sessions of the Assembly, that you weren't the only one who

Page 18795

1 knew about that; all the representatives of the Serbian Republic knew

2 about it. And you were referring to the forcible expulsion of Muslims and

3 Croats.

4 When you were talking in that context about forcible expulsions of

5 Muslims and Croats, what exactly do you mean?

6 A. I mean that there was a war on and that everybody's afraid of the

7 war. The economy could not function. People remained jobless. And that

8 there were expulsions from apartments, forcible expulsions. And that's

9 it.

10 Q. And how was this information disseminated around the Assembly

11 members?

12 A. There were reports about unemployment, poverty. I think that that

13 was the way it was. I even attacked the government once on account of

14 that, because I had information that a mother was feeding her child with

15 bread from warm water [as interpreted]. So I attacked the government on

16 account of that.

17 Q. Let me grasp the nettle, Mr. Kasagic. Does forcible expulsions -

18 using that term - amount to ethnic cleansing? Are they one and the same?

19 A. Well, Serbs were being expelled, and that can be understood as

20 ethnic cleansing, but together with the Serbs, due to economic reasons.

21 Ethnic cleansing is having people expelled from apartments.

22 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one question.

23 Is it really your testimony that ethnic cleansing, that you

24 understand that to be removing persons from their apartments for economic

25 reasons? Is that really your testimony, Kasagic?

Page 18796

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Economic reasons are one

2 reason, and expulsion from apartments is another thing. So a person who

3 has no apartment has to go somewhere.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you'd say if you, as you said before, if you

5 have to remove someone from the territory of the area, of course the first

6 step is to get him out of his apartment, but that's not a complete

7 expulsion, in your view, is it?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's hard for me to condemn

9 that. A court can condemn that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking whether you condemned it or not. But

11 we're just trying to find out what you understand by "forcibly expelling

12 people." And you gave, for one moment, the impression to me that you

13 thought expulsion to be completed if you had taken someone out of his

14 apartment. I'm asking whether expulsion is completed by that act, or that

15 it would need more to talk about forcible expulsion from areas.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not sufficient if they have

17 some other place to stay. Several families would stay in one apartment,

18 but then if they were all expelled from that apartment, then that is

19 forcible expulsion, because they have nowhere else to go, or stay.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me put the question quite simply to you: When

21 you earlier told about what you learned in the Assembly about forcibly

22 expelling people, was it about putting them before the front door of their

23 apartments, so that they had to stay in a park, or was it that they were

24 moved out from the territory of the relevant village, municipality,

25 wherever the place where they used to live?

Page 18797

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Gornji Vakuf, I saw that they

2 were relocated, one group. I think they were Muslims, but I don't know

3 whether they were both Croats and Muslims. I saw that it was forcibly

4 relocated.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Why don't you answer my question? I talked -- you

6 gave earlier as your sources what you learnt in the Assembly and what you

7 saw with your own eyes. I referred you to what you learned in the

8 Assembly, when they are talking about -- when you learned there that

9 people were forcibly expelled, did you say that they end up in the park in

10 front of their house or in the meadow in front of their house, or was it

11 your understanding that forcible expulsion meant that they were driven out

12 from the village, municipality, where they used to live?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Expelled from their apartments.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, any further questions for this witness?

15 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, no. Our position is that there were some

16 other areas of re-examination, but in the interests of this witness

17 returning, I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Josse. I'll just reread a portion of

19 the transcript of today.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE ORIE: When you earlier were speaking, Mr. Kasagic, about

22 forcible expulsion, and also about the fact that the international

23 community would not accept forcible expulsion for Banja Luka, you said:

24 "The international community would not allow that kind of attitude towards

25 these people. It would be a column from Banja Luka all the way up to

Page 18798

1 Gradiska."

2 But I do understand that forcible expulsion, for you, is taking

3 him out of his apartment, leaving him in front of his apartment, and

4 that's it, or perhaps relocate him to the next street. But when you were

5 talking about forcible expulsion, you explained that, that that would mean

6 a column from Banja Luka all the way up to Gradiska. That's approximately

7 50 kilometres, isn't it?

8 A. Yes. I was responding to what people said about Muslims and

9 Croats living in Banja Luka. I said you can't compare life in a small

10 village with life in Banja Luka.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because expelling them would mean a column of

12 taking them 50 kilometres from where they used to live, isn't it? And

13 isn't Gradiska at the border of the municipality?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: To be quite honest to you, I have some difficulties

16 in reconciling the way you spoke about expulsions and the definition you

17 later gave to us. If there would be anything you would like to add to

18 that in order to make me better understand this discrepancy, you have an

19 opportunity to do so.

20 A. But I felt they could not be expelled. There was no such column.

21 However, evicting someone from an apartment means depriving them of the

22 conditions necessary for life. Ethnic cleansing would be for all Muslims

23 and Croats to move away from Banja Luka and go to live in Croatia, or

24 somewhere else.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And what about the measure -- or the situation being

Page 18799

1 only temporary, that people would later return? Was this to say that they

2 would return from the street, the next street, and then return to their

3 apartments? Is that how I have to understand the return after the war?

4 A. No. They left the Republika Srpska because they had no place to

5 live. When the war was ended, they came back.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So do I then understand your testimony rightly

7 to say that expelling someone is taking him out of his apartment, then he

8 leaves voluntarily and leaves the territory of the Republic, and that

9 that's all voluntary, and apart from that, of course, they have been

10 evicted from their apartment? Is that a correct understanding?

11 A. Not completely, because he has nowhere to live if he doesn't have

12 the conditions to live because he has no apartment, then he has to leave.

13 So in a way, his leaving is forced.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer.

15 No further questions? The Chamber has no further questions

16 either.

17 Mr. Kasagic, I'd like to thank you very much for having come a

18 long way to The Hague and to answer the questions put to you by the

19 parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

20 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Kasagic out of the

21 courtroom.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, you asked for further guidance in view of

25 scheduling. Perhaps it will assist you if you would first listen to an

Page 18800

1 amendment to the April 2005 scheduling order. This statement I'm giving

2 now constitutes an amendment to the scheduling order of the Chamber of the

3 26th of April, 2005. You will recall that that scheduling order was

4 already amended once, allowing the Defence to commence presentation of its

5 case on the 10th of October, 2005, instead of on the 12th of September,

6 2005.

7 Since the commencement of the Defence case, counsel for the

8 Defence has urged the Chamber to grant the Defence additional time in

9 preparation, which means effectively additional time in which the Defence

10 may present its case. The current deadline for the conclusion of the

11 Defence case is the 10th of March, 2006. The April 2005 scheduling order

12 provided that a deadline could be extended upon a showing of, I quote,

13 "good cause" by one of the parties.

14 The reality is that the Defence is already experiencing

15 considerable scheduling difficulties, and I'll just indicate some of them.

16 There have been significant forced gaps in the sitting schedule to

17 date. There is an inability to plan witnesses beyond the very short term.

18 The Rule 65 ter summaries are mostly insufficient or seriously deficient.

19 A trimmed list of Defence witnesses has not been forthcoming. The time

20 estimates for examination-in-chief seem to be mere guesses, not based on

21 prior interviews with witnesses. Most of the material to be exhibited is

22 produced in the eleventh hour, and moreover, it is mostly untranslated.

23 Expert witnesses have not been identified. Rule 92 bis evidence has yet

24 to be collected, subject to the formalities. And counsel for the Defence

25 has expressed unwillingness or inability to commit himself to closing the

Page 18801

1 Defence case by certain dates.

2 This is a reality that is causing the Chamber great concern. We

3 have no doubt that both parties, including Mr. Krajisnik, feel the same

4 way. The Chamber does understand that the dispute with the Registry

5 concerning finances has been settled by an agreement. Mr. Josse, I'm not

6 saying whether it's the agreement the Defence would have wished, but at

7 least it's settled by an agreement.

8 The assessment of the contribution Mr. Krajisnik has to make to

9 his Defence has not been affected by that agreement. Yet, good cause or

10 not, we have decided to grant the Defence an extra seven weeks to prepare

11 and present its case. This means that the Defence case must close by the

12 28th of April, 2006. All other dates shown in the April 2005 order are

13 pushed back by seven weeks. Good cause continues to be a condition for

14 any extension of those dates. However, the Defence case shall not be

15 further extended unless exceptional circumstances can be demonstrated.

16 This is a higher standard than good cause.

17 This concludes the Chamber's amendment to its April 2005

18 scheduling order.

19 The Chamber now wishes to explain certain matters to the parties,

20 and especially to the Defence. Trials in the context of this Tribunal

21 have several peculiar features. One is an oversupply of potentially

22 relevant witnesses. This is especially true of the present case, which

23 concerns events in a large part of Bosnia and Herzegovina which occurred

24 over a period of many months.

25 In the pre-trial phase, the Prosecution's case was heavily trimmed

Page 18802

1 by the Chamber. It was further trimmed in the course of the trial.

2 Lastly, the Prosecution was ordered to wrap up its case by the 22nd of

3 July of this year. In effect, the Prosecution was limited to calling

4 those persons whom it considered its most highly relevant witnesses.

5 There is a public interest in giving the Prosecution sufficient

6 time and resources to prosecute those suspected of having committed

7 crimes, just as there is a public interest -- of course apart from the

8 private interest, there's a public interest in giving every accused person

9 sufficient time and resources to defend himself or herself. The Chamber

10 must ensure a fair contest, subject to the constraint of an expeditious

11 trial, which is another public interest.

12 It follows that the Defence, like the Prosecution, is expected to

13 line up the most highly relevant witnesses for its case and present as

14 much of their evidence as it can in the course of an allotted period of

15 time. It is not an open-ended quest.

16 In normal circumstances, where the requirements of Rule 65 ter (G)

17 have been adequately fulfilled by the Defence, the Chamber is in the

18 position to determine the number of witnesses the Defence may call, and if

19 necessary, to shorten the estimated examination time for each witness.

20 I'm here referring to Rule 63 ter, subparagraphs B and C. This gives the

21 Chamber the capacity to plan and maintain control of the proceedings.

22 Because the Defence fails to provide the Chamber with the

23 necessary information to properly make the Rule 73 ter determinations, we

24 are opting instead for giving the Defence a fixed period of time in which

25 to call its most highly relevant witnesses. It's largely to the Defence

Page 18803

1 to decide how best to use the time between now and the 28th of April to

2 prepare and to present its case.

3 The Chamber is aware, and the parties should be aware as well,

4 that the lack of a well-developed schedule for the presentation of the

5 Defence case may have its impact on future developments. The Chamber may

6 find it difficult in the future to establish that sufficient reasons exist

7 to deviate from the schedule as it is set now, since the logical point of

8 reference, which is comparison with the fully developed schedule that was

9 initially presented, is not available, and therefore, the Chamber will

10 have to rely on its own assessment underlying the present new scheduling

11 order to consider whether there are any good reasons to amend the

12 schedule.

13 I would like to draw the attention of the Defence to the

14 likelihood that if it continues the presentation of its case at the

15 current pace, that by the end of April 2006, it will have managed to

16 present no more than 40 witnesses, including the evidence of

17 Mr. Krajisnik. This is many fewer witnesses than indicated in the Defence

18 Rule 65 ter (G) listing. If the Defence is interested in the arithmetic

19 underlying the Chamber's calculations, an explanatory sheet, together with

20 a colour-coded calendar, may be obtained from Mr. Registrar at the end of

21 this session.

22 As for short-term scheduling, the Chamber has decided to grant the

23 Defence's request for an adjournment commencing on the 24th and 25th of

24 November, depending on when next week's witnesses are concluded. Hearings

25 will resume on the -- it says on the 5th of December -- yes, on the 5th of

Page 18804

1 December, for two weeks. Then the winter recess follows, with hearings to

2 restart on -- it says Wednesday, the 11th of January, although I have to

3 add to that that only hours ago, the Chamber received a request not to

4 schedule any sitting in the week of the 9th of January until the 13th of

5 January. So therefore, that perhaps has to be reconsidered. It has got

6 something to do with courtrooms being under reconstruction and not all

7 courtrooms being available. So that may change.

8 After that week, at least, we would not be sitting in the week --

9 Mr. Krajisnik's testimony is said to commence on Monday, the 23rd of

10 January, 2006, and after Mr. Krajisnik's testimony, the programme is still

11 unknown to the Chamber.

12 The Defence is ordered to specify its programme of witnesses and

13 desired non-sitting days at least two weeks in advance, and this is an

14 ongoing obligation.

15 As for expert witnesses, the Defence is ordered to announce

16 whether it will call experts, and if so, who they will be, by the 13th of

17 January, 2006. Tuesday, the 28th of February, 2006 is the deadline for

18 filing any expert reports.

19 Finally, the Chamber emphasises that its responsibilities and

20 duties under Rule 90(F) is not affected in any way by the new schedule and

21 that the Chamber will closely follow the development of the presentation

22 of the Defence case.

23 I would like to add to this that the short-term scheduling, as I

24 just gave it, exists merely in following what the Defence had expressed as

25 its wish during the conversations with the legal officer. To that extent,

Page 18805

1 it also expresses the view of the Chamber now, that the Defence organises

2 its case as it wishes, of course within certain limits, but that the 28th

3 of April is a date which is not easily to be amended. The Chamber is not

4 in a position, due to the absence of any commitment or any well-completed,

5 long-term scheduling, to sensibly assist the Defence in a better

6 organisation of the presentation of its case by giving directives of a

7 different character than just pointing at the 28th of April.

8 This concludes the Chamber's remarks on the schedule.

9 Is this sufficient, Mr. Josse?

10 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Clearly, Mr. Stewart

11 and I will consider Your Honour's words very carefully. And the only

12 other comment I've got is in relation to Tuesday. During the course of

13 the morning, a further Court calendar, official Court calendar, was

14 produced, and I note that we're still due to sit on Tuesday morning. Can

15 I confirm that we are definitely going to sit on Tuesday afternoon?

16 JUDGE ORIE: I'll check that. From what I understood, it was only

17 recently changed, and therefore, it might not appear yet in the Court

18 schedule. I'll verify that first of all, and then you can contact

19 Mr. Nilsson, the legal officer, for information. It's a matter of 10

20 minutes.

21 MR. JOSSE: Two other very brief matters.


23 MR. JOSSE: The protected witness application, Your Honour, I

24 don't know whether that's something that Your Honour wishes to hear any

25 oral argument about on Monday.

Page 18806

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first of all, the parties are expected to see

2 whether they can agree on protective measures, yes or no. If there is an

3 agreement, then of course we just get the application, we get the reasons

4 for it, we get a response from the Prosecution. Then it's easily dealt

5 with without any oral argument. If not, then of course we'd like to hear

6 that as soon as possible.

7 MR. JOSSE: And finally, this: Again it's a matter that I'll

8 liaise with Mr. Tieger about, but there may be some observations and

9 submissions I wish to make about his cross-examination today, but let me

10 speak to him first, if I may, Your Honour. But I reserve the right to

11 return to that subject. Clearly, there wasn't time to deal with it today.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if that doesn't lead to any common

13 understanding, we'll hear from you.

14 MR. JOSSE: Thank you very much. I have no further matters that I

15 wish to raise.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

17 I again would like to apologise to the interpreters and

18 technicians, because again it was 15 minutes earlier, but at least

19 Mr. Kasagic can travel home again. Therefore, thank you very much and I

20 hope that you will better enjoy your weekend. We'll adjourn until next

21 Monday morning, Courtroom III, 9.00.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.

23 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of

24 November 2005, at 9.00 a.m.