Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18893

1 Tuesday, 22 November 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 When Mr. Banduka would be brought into the courtroom, I could deal

11 briefly with a few matters that are still outstanding since yesterday,

12 Mr. Harmon, but -- is Mr. Banduka already standby? No. If you would try

13 to find him.

14 One of the issues being that on the exhibit that was first, by

15 mistake, assigned with a number but turned out to be already in evidence

16 under P64, you would still tell us what tab it was, Mr. Harmon.

17 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. I'll try to get that information

18 to you --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Harmon.

20 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour, I will try to get that information

21 to you during the next break.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we had another issue that was about two

23 different versions of what seems to be the same document, handwriting at

24 the bottom of it. It was finally now assigned Exhibit P1001. You'd

25 clarify also the --

Page 18894

1 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. If I could do that at the end of

2 the day, or at the end of the session.


4 MR. HARMON: I will do that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And then the next issue: I went through the -- you

6 are supposed to give us the position of the Prosecution in respect of

7 quite a lot of exhibits that meanwhile had been translated and given to

8 you. That was D70, 72, 73, 74, 76, 77, not 78, but then 79, not 80, but

9 81, up to and including 82G, D85, D86, D87. And I do understand that I

10 had forgotten to mention D88. But you would have a look at it and see

11 whether there would be any objections against these documents.

12 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Tieger is working on that.

13 Those were exhibits introduced through Mr. Vasic.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It's not traumatic if we don't receive it today, but

15 you announced that you would be in a position to do it today. But then we

16 will receive, let's say, the information within the next two days? Is

17 that --?

18 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then I went through the lists on the

20 basis of the 60 per cent guidance. You would have another 20 minutes,

21 approximately, Mr. Harmon.

22 MR. HARMON: Yes. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, would you please escort the

24 witness into the courtroom.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 18895

1 MR. HARMON: If the witness could be given the binder of exhibits.


3 Good afternoon, Mr. Banduka. I should have greeted you --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And I also take the opportunity to remind you that

6 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning

7 of your testimony. Mr. Harmon will now continue his cross-examination.

8 Mr. Harmon.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Harmon: [Continued]

12 Q. Mr. Banduka, good afternoon. What I would like you to do is

13 examine the exhibit that is found at tab 16. Take a moment, Mr. Banduka,

14 to read that. It's a short document.

15 MR. HARMON: For the record, Your Honour, this is a document that

16 is dated the 22nd of October, 1992, from the minister, Momcilo Mandic. It

17 is addressed to the Serb municipalities of Hadzici and Ilidza, to the

18 president of the municipality and to the chief of the public security

19 station, in person.

20 Q. Have you read the document, Mr. Banduka?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. This document is dated the 22nd of October, and in the first

23 paragraph Mr. Mandic, in a correspondence that's directed specifically to

24 the president of the Hadzici municipality and the chief of the public

25 security station, says that the minister of justice has determined that

Page 18896

1 there are 90 persons of Muslim nationality kept in the sports centre in

2 Hadzici.

3 Now, these -- were you aware of that, first of all, that in

4 October, late October, there were 90 people still held in the sports

5 complex?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were aware of that or you were not?

8 A. No, I was not aware of that.

9 Q. Now, to your knowledge, Mr. Banduka, did the president of the

10 municipality or the chief of the security station in the municipality of

11 Hadzici inform Minister Mandic that these were people who were kept in the

12 sports complex for their own protection? Were you aware of that?

13 A. I'm not aware of that.

14 Q. This request, essentially, from Mandic to people of authority in

15 your municipality directs that those people who allegedly were kept for

16 their own protection in the sports complex be sent immediately to prison.

17 In your opinion, sir, would sending people who had been detained for their

18 own protection - civilians - to prison have been improper?

19 A. Probably, yes.

20 Q. Why do you say that?

21 A. First of all, I stand by what I said earlier, what I said

22 yesterday. I was expecting us to clarify certain matters from yesterday

23 today. I stand by my views, although I'm not that familiar with what

24 happened in the army at that time. That is to say that in October, when

25 it was already cold, that I do not believe that persons were held in the

Page 18897

1 sports centre, and I'm not aware of that.

2 Q. When you were brought --

3 A. Because the minister says here according to certain information

4 that he has. Now, that information doesn't have to be correct

5 necessarily.

6 JUDGE ORIE: This is not a place to enter a debate on -- tell us

7 what you know. And whether it's logic or not at this time of the year,

8 whether it's cold or not, whether you could understand that people were

9 detained, that's another matter. We'd like to hear from you what you

10 know. Have you any personal knowledge on the presence of persons detained

11 in the sports centre at that time, to which this letter refers?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not have any knowledge.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


15 Q. Mr. Banduka, when you returned from the army service to Hadzici,

16 were there still people being detained in the sports complex?

17 A. As far as I know, no.

18 Q. So it appears, does it not, from then this directive dated the

19 22nd of October, that the 90 people who were of Muslim nationality who

20 were held in Hadzici were sent to the prison? Is that a fair reading?

21 A. Well, I don't know. I've already told you that I don't know

22 anything about this document, and --

23 JUDGE ORIE: I just invited the witness to tell us what he knows

24 and whether there would be fair conclusions to be drawn from letters in

25 which instructions are given, that seems not to be within the knowledge of

Page 18898

1 the witness.

2 MR. HARMON: All right. Then I'll proceed.

3 Q. The penultimate paragraph in this document, Mr. Banduka, reads as

4 follows: "At the same time, we are informing you that there has been a

5 great control and attention on behalf of the International Red Cross and

6 the United Nations organisation on the irregularity that has been going on

7 regarding the arrest of people of Muslim nationality, which is making the

8 position of our people in their fight for creating their state difficult."

9 Now, irregularity, Mr. Banduka, I put to you, deals with the

10 arrest of Muslim civilians; isn't that correct?

11 A. May I just clarify certain matters yet again? Please. Yesterday,

12 with that document, I think from tab 13, you got me confused a bit. I've

13 already told you: As far as I can remember and as far as I know, people

14 were not staying at the sports centre. However, there was a Commission

15 for Exchange, and the commission worked throughout 1992. The commission

16 worked in 1993 as well. And there were exchanges in 1993, exchanges of

17 civilians, exchanges of persons; different kinds of exchanges.

18 So that document that you offered confused me a bit at a given

19 point in time, and I do not believe the validity of that document.

20 Q. My question, Mr. Banduka --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Banduka, I do not know exactly what document you

22 are talking about. Are you talking about the list of those who were

23 detained? Yes. I do understand that --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- you do not believe the validity. It's for the

Page 18899

1 Chamber to finally decide whether it attaches any probative value to this

2 document. This is not a matter of clarification. This is a matter of

3 opinion, rather, giving, which the Chamber doesn't seek from witnesses.

4 The Chamber primarily seeks from witnesses the facts they have personal

5 knowledge of.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


8 Q. My question to you, Mr. Banduka -- I'd like you to listen

9 carefully to my question because I only have a limited amount of time.

10 The irregularity that was referred to by Minister Mandic was that Muslim

11 civilians were being arrested in your municipality; isn't that correct?

12 A. I'm not aware of that, that they were being arrested.

13 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next document, Mr. Banduka; tab 17, please.

14 It's a long document, Mr. Banduka. I don't want you to read the whole

15 thing, because you'll take the remaining time I have. I'd like you to

16 just cast an eye on this document, and this is a document, and I'd like

17 you to confirm, Mr. Banduka, that these are minutes of the Assembly of the

18 Serbian municipality of Hadzici that were held on the 15th of December,

19 1992, something that you can find at the top of the first page of the

20 Bosnian version, and that you personally attended this session.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, I do want to direct your attention, Mr. Banduka, in the B/C/S

23 version to page 8, the paragraph that starts -- toward the top. It's the

24 third paragraph. It starts with the name Ratko Radic. The next two

25 paragraphs, each of which start with Radomir Susic.

Page 18900

1 MR. HARMON: Those, Your Honour, are found on the English version

2 at page 8, page 8 toward the top. It starts at the fourth line from the

3 top.

4 Q. If you just cast an eye on those three paragraphs.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Mr. Banduka, in this document, Mr. Susic reports in your presence

7 as to the work of the commission, and he says -- and this document is

8 dated the 15th of December, 1992: "As for the work of the commission for

9 the exchange of prisoners, he informed the assemblymen that negotiations

10 in the exchange of prisoners had been completed today. It was proposed

11 that we release the remaining prisoners we were holding, and in return,

12 the other side would release the prisoners in cells 1 and 2 in the silos.

13 The other side did not accept the proposal."

14 Now, the remaining prisoners -- first of all, this document

15 establishes that in December, when you were present, you were still

16 holding prisoners, you were still holding civilians in Hadzici

17 municipality; isn't that correct?

18 A. I think that the word "detainees" was used for all persons of that

19 kind. I think that this term is used by the other side. The other side

20 released people, as you can see here, from cell 1 and cell 2 in the silo.

21 So I think that this term "detainees" or "prisoners" is wrong. They were

22 not detained in Tarcin. But I don't know why this term is used, but it

23 was used. Perhaps it seemed appropriate at the time.

24 Q. I'm not talking about the prisoners in Tarcin. I'm talking about

25 the prisoners that were held in Hadzici. In December, on the 15th of

Page 18901

1 December, it's correct, is it not, that the authorities, your authorities,

2 continued to hold Muslim civilians in custody? Do you agree with that or

3 not agree with that?

4 A. I do not.

5 Q. Now, this document further says and directs Mr. Susic to submit a

6 written report to the Assembly in seven days. And if we could turn to tab

7 18. Tab 18 is a Defence exhibit. It is Defence Exhibit 111. You've seen

8 this document before. As I understand it, Mr. Banduka, you brought this

9 document to The Hague, and so you're quite familiar with it. This is a

10 document that is Mr. Susic's report to the Assembly, which you attended,

11 in which he reports on the work of the Exchange Commission; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And in this report - and I'm referring to page 2 of the English

15 version, Your Honours, and bottom of page 1 of the B/C/S version, for your

16 benefit, Mr. Banduka - it's clear from this document that the commission

17 states that it took over work at a time when other -- when the contacts

18 with the Muslims had been suspended. And the reason the work had been

19 suspended, according to Mr. Susic, was because at an exchange of what was

20 supposed to be 480 prisoners of war at Kobiljaca, your side, the Serb

21 side, brought women and children from their homes and tried to trick the

22 other side.

23 Now, this is what was reported to you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, would you please correctly reflect what

25 is here, because what you are now quoting is a report in which Mr. Susic,

Page 18902

1 or his committee, says what the Muslims blamed the Serbs for, not that

2 this was the case. If you read the previous lines, it says: "Muslim side

3 blames the Serb side for an interruption in talks and exchanges for, as

4 they say, the following reasons."

5 MR. HARMON: Okay. I stand corrected, Your Honour.

6 Q. Let me read this to you, then, specifically: "The Muslim side

7 blames the Serb side for an interruption in talks and exchanges for, as

8 they say, for the following reasons."

9 And then they relate, sir, that at an exchange that was supposed

10 to be for prisoners of war, the Serb side brought women and children from

11 their homes and tried to trick, essentially, the Muslim side.

12 Now, this document further shows, on page 4 of the English version

13 and page 3, at the bottom, of the B/C/S version, Mr. Banduka, that the

14 Muslim side did not want to accept the exchange of civilians organised by

15 exchange commissions because they felt that, one, their political outlook,

16 which they were against ethnic cleansing, and two, the fact that civilians

17 were not subject to exchange by Prisoner of War Exchange Commission.

18 Now, did you see this report at the time you were in the Municipal

19 Assembly?

20 A. I do not recall.

21 Q. Let me give you a hypothetical situation. Let me -- I want to ask

22 your opinion. If the Muslim -- if the authorities in Muslim-held

23 territory took Serb civilians from their homes, put them on buses, and

24 wanted to use them for exchange purposes, would that be, in your view,

25 something that would be correct and proper to do?

Page 18903

1 A. Well, the Muslim authorities brought in civilians just like the

2 Serb authorities did. These are civilians, gentlemen. They were just

3 brought to the silos and then they were taken as prisoners. That's what I

4 wanted to clarify. In Tarcin there was no fighting. They were not

5 imprisoned. They were not taken prisoner. They were just put up in the

6 silo, whereas everybody, the Serb and the Muslim side, keeps using the

7 same term, "prisoners." What kind of prisoners can you have in Pazarici

8 and Tarcin when they did not fire a single bullet and when they did not

9 violate the law in any way? That is the core of the matter.

10 Q. Again let me ask you the question, Mr. Banduka. If Muslim

11 authorities went to the homes of Serb people living in Muslim territory,

12 collected them, put them on buses, for purposes of exchange, and without

13 their consent - I'm going to add that - would that be proper?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, in your municipality, Hadzici, isn't it a fact, Mr. Banduka,

16 that Muslim civilians, women and children who were residing in their

17 homes, were on occasion visited by the Serb police, told they had a very

18 short period of time in which to collect their -- some personal effects,

19 get on buses, and then they were transported to exchange locations? That

20 took place in your municipality, didn't it?

21 A. No. I'm not aware of that.

22 Q. Well, the report that Mr. Susic brought to the Assembly's

23 attention made some very, very serious claims about what was happening to

24 these civilians in your municipality. It related an incident where, when

25 there was supposed to be an exchange for prisoners of war, the Serb

Page 18904

1 authorities, according to the Muslims, collected women and children from

2 their homes and tried to use them as exchange currency. That's a serious

3 allegation, isn't it, Mr. Banduka?

4 A. Mr. Radomir Susic was president of the Commission for Exchanges

5 and he probably knows much more about that. But I keep repeating the same

6 thing: There were exchanges of civilians going on all the time and this

7 kind of term and that kind of term was used. I am telling you what the

8 core of the matter is, what the main point is. Exchanges were even

9 carried out by individuals. If you allow me, I'll just give you an

10 example, a living example. I witnessed it myself. Just three sentences,

11 please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was sometime towards the end of

14 the summer and I was asked to come to the Kobiljaca border crossing, which

15 is mentioned here, where there were exchanges taking place. That's where

16 the border was with Kiseljak, that was under Croatian control.

17 I came there, a woman met me there, and she said: "I was brought

18 here by a certain Hakija Babic." She was brought there along with her two

19 children.

20 "Can you help me find someone who will bring my wife and

21 children?" And she couldn't remember anybody. And he asked her whether

22 she knew me. And she said yes, because this Hakija worked in the same

23 company where I worked before the war.

24 So he asked me, after I met up with him, to go and find his wife

25 and children. I went to his house, and his wife got ready, and I put her

Page 18905

1 things in my car. And there was one child with her. And I said, "Hakija

2 told me children, in the plural." And she said: "Well, my daughter has

3 already been taken away."

4 So I brought them to Kobiljaca, and they went to the Muslim side

5 and then this other woman came to the Serb side.

6 So these kind of things happened, and this is the kind of thing

7 that was included in all these reports. Unfortunately, they used this

8 term "prisoner" because they couldn't think of a better term. But that's

9 the kind of thing that happened, you see.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Why, Mr. Banduka, why was there a need to exchange?

11 Why not say: If you want to leave, you leave; and if Serbs wanted to

12 return to your municipality or wanted to come to your municipality -- I

13 mean, it's the exchange issue that seems the core of the issue raised.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, how could people come when

15 they were in the silo? There's over 700 people there from the month of

16 May 1992. How could they come?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just assume that --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean civilians?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just assume that they could not come. I'm

20 talking about those who left your municipality, those who went out. Why

21 did you have to wait for others to come in? Because that's what I

22 understand is an exchange. Why didn't you let them just go out?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the problems in the lines.

24 How could they cross the line when the line was established? And there's

25 firing there. That's the only way they could go, through Kobiljaca.

Page 18906

1 JUDGE ORIE: No. If you can resolve that problem in an exchange,

2 I take it you also could resolve that problem if you would just let them

3 go. Say -- warn the other side, say we have a few, ten, 15, 20 Muslims

4 who would like to come to your side, please be aware that, like as in an

5 exchange, that shooting stops for a minute to let these civilians go out.

6 My issue is not practicalities; my issue is the issue of exchanging rather

7 than letting them go if they wanted to.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that we did have one

9 situation like that. I think it was the summer of 1992. Buses were

10 organised. I can't remember who all the intermediaries were. And some

11 people left. Or rather, very often these negotiations were not

12 successful. Sometimes they would only be successful later.

13 Like what you referred to just now, Your Honour. That yielded

14 fruit only in October 1993, through the International Red Cross, through

15 the UNHCR and through the French battalion, I think it was the French

16 battalion that was there, on the line, on the separation line. It was

17 only then that results were achieved. Serbs went to -- the Serb

18 commission went to the Muslim territory, and the other way around. They

19 wrote down the names of the people who wanted to leave. So through this

20 mediation, directly there, so -- or rather, without any kind of mediation.

21 It was directly along the Hadzici-Tarcin road.

22 So it is only then that results were achieved.

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you very directly: Were you afraid that if

24 you would let them go and not, in return, request Serbs to go the other

25 way, that you were afraid that they would not let the Serbs go in your

Page 18907

1 direction and that, therefore, people, civilians, were exchanged rather

2 than allowed to leave in whatever direction? Wasn't that at the basis of

3 the exchange thought?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know whether it was at

5 the basis, but there were fears. And we were under a lot of pressure from

6 the families of these prisoners, or rather, as it was said then,

7 prisoners. We had blockades often of the municipalities. I saw that

8 humanitarian convoys were often blocked, international convoys, and even

9 Mr. Morillon was in one of them. Yes, there's a mix of different feelings

10 involved and --

11 JUDGE ORIE: If you say, "We were under a lot of pressure from the

12 families of these prisoners," do I have to understand this, that these

13 families would say, "Don't let the Muslims go if not in return we get our

14 people back from their detention situation at the other side of the

15 confrontation line"?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, not in that sense. Families

17 were exerting pressure to have this question resolved, and probably

18 everybody thought that this system of exchanges, which did operate

19 somehow, provided the best guarantees that people would get out of Tarcin.

20 Well, basically, I could not assert either one or the other, but in

21 principle, it was families that were pressuring us, as if we were the ones

22 who could resolve this.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon, but not for very long.

24 MR. HARMON: I understand, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Banduka, you never answered my question. My question was that

Page 18908

1 the allegation that Muslim civilians had been brought from their homes and

2 used for purposes of exchange for prisoners of war was a serious

3 allegation, wasn't it? That's what the Muslims had alleged and that's

4 what Mr. Susic reported to you and to your Assembly. It was serious,

5 wasn't it? Or did you not take that very seriously?

6 A. Well, I think that Mr. Susic was in a conflict with the

7 municipality. You see, in wartime, there are many small emperors.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you again. You're going to explain the

9 whole of the situation. You said before, when Mr. Harmon asked you a

10 similar thing, whether it was proper to act this way, you said: No, it

11 was not proper. And now Mr. Harmon is asking whether alleging that you

12 did this, whether that's a serious allegation.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it would be a serious

14 allegation had we been doing that kind of thing, but then I assert that we

15 were not doing that kind of thing.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The allegation as such, whether true or not, is one

17 concerning a serious matter?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.


21 Q. And do I understand your evidence to be that while this -- let me

22 strike that question. In light of the serious allegation that was

23 contained in Mr. Susic's report, did you either ask that an inquiry be

24 made to see if that was in fact the practice that was happening in your

25 municipality? First question. If you could answer that.

Page 18909

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ever issue any orders or instructions that that's a type

3 of a practice that should not take place in your municipality?

4 A. The report was submitted to the Municipal Assembly. I was not

5 president of the Municipal Assembly, so you cannot ask me that.

6 Q. Did anybody from the Municipal Assembly issue an order that the

7 type of conduct described in Mr. Susic's report should not take place?

8 A. I don't know about that. Members of the commission changed often.

9 It wasn't only Susic who was president of the commission. Before Susic,

10 there were two other presidents of the commission.

11 JUDGE ORIE: The witness says he doesn't know about it,

12 Mr. Harmon. That's an answer to your question. At the same time --

13 MR. HARMON: I want to ask one additional question, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. One question and then ...


16 Q. Mr. Banduka, isn't it a fact that -- and I put this to you,

17 Mr. Banduka, that there were Muslim civilians who were in fact arrested

18 and detained by your authorities, they were used for purposes of exchange,

19 and that was a way in which Muslims could be removed from your

20 municipality; isn't that the case?

21 A. No.

22 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I have no additional questions. The

23 only request I have is that tab 17, which were the minutes from the

24 municipality, be given an exhibit number.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Given an exhibit number. Mr. Registrar.

Page 18910

1 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P1009, Your Honours.

2 MR. HARMON: And I would point out to Your Honours that tab 19 in

3 the binder is a previously admitted exhibit. It's 292, KID 31472. It

4 also is a contextual document for purposes of illustrating that the Muslim

5 side did complain about the exchange of women and children as ethnic

6 cleansing. It's a conversation between Mr. Mandic and Mr. Krajisnik on

7 the 26th of June, 1992.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Josse, is there any need to re-examine the

9 witness?

10 MR. JOSSE: There's one matter I wish to re-examine on, very much

11 on instructions.


13 MR. JOSSE: I'll try and deal with this, if I can, quite briefly.

14 It involves a document, which we've got here [inaudible] translated.

15 Could the witness have the top copy and the others be distributed,

16 including -- the interpreters will want one.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It's a new document, so I take it that an exhibit

18 number should be assigned to it.

19 MR. JOSSE: That's right. Could I explain what it is, Your

20 Honour? It's a chapter --


22 MR. JOSSE: -- from a book by Sefer Halilovic. The name of the

23 book is on the copy of the document that the witness has.

24 Re-examined by Mr. Josse:

25 Q. What's the name of the book, please, Mr. Banduka? Written in

Page 18911

1 manuscript on the copy that you've got.

2 A. "A Shrewd Strategy."

3 JUDGE ORIE: Is it on our copy as well?

4 MR. JOSSE: It's not, no.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I'd rather have everything the witness has.

6 MR. JOSSE: It was my fault. I should have had --

7 JUDGE ORIE: If you could put it on the ELMO for just one

8 second --

9 MR. JOSSE: Of course.

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- so we could see what it is.

11 MR. JOSSE: I should have had the front of the book reproduced. I

12 forgot. At the last moment I asked an assistant to write down the name.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll have a look at it on the ELMO at this

14 moment and our copies will then be completed.

15 Could we have the ELMO on the screen. I still don't see anything.

16 Pushing all the buttons, but without any ...

17 Well, let's delay this, because there seems to be a technical

18 problem. Later on you'll show us, once the ELMO is operational again,

19 we'll see the cover page.

20 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Josse.


22 Q. First question I'd better ask you, Mr. Banduka, is: Have you read

23 this book?

24 A. No.

25 Q. This -- if we look at the first paragraph you see there, could you

Page 18912

1 read that to yourself.

2 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, at this point, I'm going to make an

3 objection. The witness has not read this book. If counsel wants to put

4 in this particular portion of the book, then he should do so. I received

5 a copy of this a few minutes before we started, but I've read what Mr. --

6 what counsel has given me, and a lot of this appears to be material that

7 relates to the BiH army. If there's not a proper foundation, then I'm not

8 sure how this witness can testify about the contents of what is in this

9 book and the excerpts that I've been provided.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, the witness said he didn't read the book,

11 so I take it that what is written in this book, that you expect the

12 witness to have some knowledge of that. Why not ask him about it, because

13 you know what's in the book. And the witness is now reading it. Perhaps

14 he should stop doing that. And then at a later stage, we always could see

15 whether there's any reason to confront him with what's in the book, isn't

16 it? I mean --

17 MR. JOSSE: Well, of course, I can't do that, because -- unless he

18 reads the document, I'm literally going to put words into his mouth,

19 unless he reads the document.

20 JUDGE ORIE: But if he reads the document, wouldn't it be true

21 that the words are not put into his mouth but are in his eyes at the very

22 moment he reads it?

23 MR. JOSSE: Well, it depends on what value one gives to the book.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Banduka, do you understand any English?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, no, no.

Page 18913

1 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please take your earphones off for a

2 second.

3 Mr. Josse, please explain to us what's the use of --

4 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Banduka, I would have to check that in the

6 transcript, I would have to check it in the transcript, but didn't you say

7 during the first day of your testimony that you had some knowledge of the

8 English language?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. I said no. I said "No,"

10 and you laughed and you said that that was typically English. But that's

11 what I had learned during my two days in The Hague. That's what I said.

12 But, no, it's all right.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, the witness says he doesn't speak any

14 English. I think that's what you thought as well.

15 MR. JOSSE: That's my understanding.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then would you please take your earphones off.

17 Mr. Josse, could you please explain to us what exercise you're

18 about to start, yes.

19 MR. JOSSE: Perhaps I could deal with the point that I wish to

20 establish.


22 MR. JOSSE: In the book, and there's reference to it in the

23 original document, which one can see --

24 JUDGE ORIE: There's some handwritten --

25 MR. JOSSE: Yes --

Page 18914

1 JUDGE ORIE: -- copied, yes.

2 MR. JOSSE: -- which in fact is then reproduced in type in the

3 book.


5 MR. JOSSE: It deals in various passages with a plan by the

6 Patriotic League --


8 MR. JOSSE: -- to move Muslim population out of villages and local

9 communities, where they'll be relocated and lodged. And it really goes to

10 the first matter that the witness was cross-examined about, namely, the

11 suggestion that the Muslims left Hadzici because they were forced to

12 rather than as some sort of plan.

13 Now, let me immediately say this book does not deal specifically

14 with Hadzici. It is generally in relation to Sarajevo, of course. With

15 all due respect to my learned friend, I mean, bearing in mind the

16 Prosecution's use of documents in this case and the way that documents are

17 put to witnesses, when the witness has no connection whatsoever with the

18 document, the witness is shown a document and then asked to accept or

19 reject a proposition, let's leave aside the fact that this is my witness

20 and rules about leading. That may be an issue and a point that my learned

21 friend could take. My learned friend's basic objection is not sustainable

22 for the reasons that I've just asserted.

23 However, Your Honour, yet again I'm more than willing -- we're

24 going to try and prepare some contextual documents in relation to Hadzici.

25 I've already talked about the video. There also may be some other

Page 18915

1 material. I'm -- send this to the CLSS and deal with it in that way.

2 JUDGE ORIE: To cut matters short, what would you like, then, to

3 ask this witness?

4 MR. JOSSE: I was going to ask him to look at two passages, I

5 think, in particular, and needed to be put into some sort of context, of

6 course.


8 MR. JOSSE: I've got the advantage of having a rough English

9 translation and I know where that can be found in the B/C/S passage.

10 JUDGE ORIE: What would you then ask him? I do understand that

11 you want him to read those portions and what would the question be for

12 him?

13 MR. JOSSE: He can comment on what the book says. It would have

14 to be that, frankly. I don't know that there's anything else I could ask

15 him. Could I also just finally say this, Your Honour: According to the

16 rough translation that I have received -- actually, in the handwritten

17 document it actually says at one point particular attention should be

18 devoted to withdrawing and securing the population of threatened areas.

19 And you can see the date on that document.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Does it say anything, threatened by who? Because

21 that makes quite a distinction, Mr. Josse, whether you withdraw your

22 people from an area which is threatened by the opposing party or which is

23 threatened by your own activities.

24 MR. JOSSE: The part that I've had translated doesn't say that,

25 but I've only had a selected passage translated and I do accept entirely

Page 18916

1 that the book would need to be taken as a -- or at least a chapter would

2 need to be taken as a whole. I would certainly -- was going to send the

3 whole of the chapter to Translation, because otherwise, clearly, it would

4 be completely unfair.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, the Chamber will not allow you to continue

7 this way. Of course, one of the reasons being that I raised an issue on

8 what's a threatened area, how it's written down, what is the context, and

9 it's almost impossible for the Chamber at this moment to see whether that

10 would be fair to do that. For example, just to give you that example, of

11 course if it's threatened by one party or the other would make quite a

12 distinction, and if the book is not clear on that, or at least not on that

13 portion ... If you nevertheless would like to pursue the matter, then I

14 would suggest that you would at least have then a kind of a translation of

15 a couple of lines and see whether Mr. Harmon would oppose to it. But on

16 the basis of what you've presented until now, the Chamber will not allow

17 you to put it.

18 Of course, another matter is that, on the basis of your knowledge

19 of the book, you could, of course, put additional questions to the witness

20 by asking him about, not specifically on Hadzici, whether he ever has

21 heard anything about -- where he interpreted the moving out of the

22 Muslims, whether he would have any knowledge of similar schemes developed,

23 either in the area or -- so it's not a subject that the Chamber would

24 think you should not touch upon, but it's rather the way in which it's --

25 you suggest it's to be done.

Page 18917

1 Please proceed. I'll ask the witness to put his earphones on

2 again. And I meanwhile verified the transcript, and then I noticed about

3 the knowledge of the English language, that the interpreters at that time

4 said that they were not sure whether he said yes or no. So it was my

5 mistake.

6 Could the witness please put his earphones on again. Has the

7 witness meanwhile taken the time to read --

8 MR. JOSSE: He may have read the first page. He has not flicked

9 through the other pages.

10 JUDGE ORIE: It doesn't change the matter, but of course I was

11 interested to know whether it's -- yes. Now I see the handwritten -- now

12 I better understand, that's the title handwritten on it.

13 If you have any further questions, please proceed, Mr. Josse.

14 MR. JOSSE: It may be the Chamber would like this document

15 collected and we'll shred it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll see whether it could -- I don't know whether it

17 could serve as a contextual exhibit, but of course we need first to

18 receive a translation and the Prosecution should be in a position to read

19 it.


21 Q. Just let me ask you this, then, Mr. Banduka: You talked about the

22 -- what you described as a deliberate plan on the part of Muslims in

23 Hadzici to leave the town prior to the attack that you've described, and

24 you've told us about that, you've told us why you thought it was a

25 deliberate plan. Do you have any knowledge of that happening anywhere

Page 18918

1 else in the Sarajevo area, in particular, and Bosnia in general, that

2 particular tactic?

3 A. I don't have any specific knowledge, but I would like to

4 corroborate this by saying what I remembered. On the 16th of June, when

5 we had this attack, we found a diary that was written by a fallen soldier,

6 and in this diary there were notes of some meetings, attacks, the axes of

7 attacks, and I believe that this document is being used in the case

8 against Mr. Milosevic. This is what I have been told by people when I

9 inquired about this diary that was found.

10 Q. A fallen soldier from which side?

11 A. The Muslim side.

12 Q. And where did you ascertain this information from, that it -- the

13 information that it had been used in the case against Mr. Milosevic?

14 A. We found this diary on the body of a fallen Muslim soldier.

15 Q. That was just translated as "We found this diary ..." Is that

16 what you just said, you found it? And if you -- and who do you mean by

17 "we"?

18 A. I mean our side, the troops of Republika Srpska. I don't know who

19 it was exactly. I was there. I was present when they brought it.

20 Q. And you were present where when they brought it?

21 A. I was present there. The attack was on the 6th [as interpreted]

22 of June on Mount Tinovo. We lost that peak. And whatever capable men we

23 had to put up defence, went there, and I was among them. So I saw with my

24 own two eyes the fallen Muslim soldier and the diary that was found on his

25 body.

Page 18919

1 Q. And did you read the diary?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And beyond what you've already said, namely, there were notes of

4 meetings, attacks, is there anything else you remember about that diary?

5 A. I remember very well that there was a list of all the units that

6 would participate in the attack and that the Rijeka Brigade, from Rijeka,

7 troops from Rijeka, whatever was meant by that, but that's how they were

8 referred. I remember the name well, the Rijeka Brigade. The police from

9 Konjic as well were supposed to take part, the special police, the

10 so-called Neretvica. This is what I remember very well. With the axis of

11 attack, the simulation of attack, where it would take place, and so on and

12 so forth.

13 Q. And what did you or your comrades do with the diary?

14 A. There was a service, intelligence service which was being

15 established with the police, and the diary was handed over to them. As I

16 was preparing for this testimony, I talked to some people from the police,

17 and very few of them are still left. And they told me that they had sent

18 all of those written documents to the Tribunal to be used in the case

19 against Mr. Milosevic. Because many people who had been imprisoned in the

20 Tarcin camp have been asked to testify in this case.

21 I remember this very well because this diary was written in a very

22 typical military manner. I am a layperson, I was not a soldier, but I

23 thought that this was written by somebody who was a seasoned soldier, who

24 was an experienced soldier. There were the types of weapons, the types of

25 rifles, the names of people carrying those rifles. This is something that

Page 18920

1 sticks in one's mind.

2 MR. JOSSE: I've no other questions, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Josse.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You just said this diary, you mentioned two

6 dates, the 16th of June and the 6th of June. Which is the correct one?

7 It may be --

8 A. I didn't say the 6th. I said the 16th. I don't remember having

9 said the 6th. I remember that it was on the 16th of June because on that

10 day my house was torched.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It may have been a mistake made in transcribing or in

12 translating.

13 Mr. Banduka, the Chamber has no further questions for you. That

14 also means that our questions couldn't trigger any more questions from the

15 parties.

16 Mr. Josse, in relation to the document the witness just came up

17 with, is that something you'd like to further consider? Because we -- of

18 course, we would not like to keep the witness here for any longer than

19 strictly necessary, but I take it that he'll not leave today. So if

20 there's one or two questions, if this really is a diary which makes any

21 sense to hear -- of course, the witness, in relation to this document,

22 mainly explained that it gives all kind of details of the attacks, which

23 is quite understandable that someone writes down how to organise an

24 attack. I would not expect an attack ever to take place without making at

25 least some notes on who will participate, what kind of weaponry. It's not

Page 18921

1 exactly what you asked him.

2 So I wonder how important it is for you. But if you'd consider

3 the matter, of course, we could ask the witness to remain standby but for

4 the remainder of the day, but I leave it up to you. I don't want to be

5 unfair in respect of what could be a source for the Defence to further

6 explore.

7 MR. JOSSE: What I'd like to do, Your Honour, and -- well, Your

8 Honour will of course guide me whether this is a course that is ethically

9 permissible at this Tribunal - is in effect say that the witness is

10 finished his evidence, which would permit us to speak to him. I don't

11 think I personally would be able to, because I need to be in here for the

12 next witness, to try and ask for some more details about the document.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but isn't it true that if it is a document which

14 is used in the Milosevic case, that it should be easy to identify that,

15 even without talking to the witness? I take it that -- I can imagine that

16 you even consult with those who are very familiar with the Milosevic case.

17 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether they're around. I even can

19 imagine that the Prosecution would assist in identifying the document. I

20 see a nodding of yes. I think that would be a more appropriate way of

21 dealing with it. Yes?

22 And then -- of course, we haven't got much time. What we could do

23 is have the break now, because we'll then move to the next witness anyway,

24 and to give you an opportunity -- if you can identify it. I take it that

25 it's there in English and you could have a glance at it somewhere within

Page 18922

1 the next -- or the next two breaks.

2 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour.


4 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, there are two items, tabs 11 and 12,

5 which we would -- for which we would seek admission as contextual

6 documents.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now I've forgotten whether we would have

8 the 11 -- all the contextual exhibits together. I think that's what you

9 preferred. And these are the only ones in respect of this witness. Yes.

10 11, then, and 12, are the two you announced as contextual exhibits.

11 MR. HARMON: And 19, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And 19.

13 MR. HARMON: But 19 is already in exhibit.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It's already in evidence. So I would say you have

15 now drawn our attention to the fact that it has relevance in this context

16 as well but it doesn't need any --

17 MR. HARMON: Correct.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then tab 11. Which, Mr. Registrar --

19 THE REGISTRAR: Would be P1010, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: P1010. And it is a telephone intercept of a

21 conversation, the 11th of May, 1992, first between Budisa and Gagovic and

22 then between Kovac and Gagovic. Yes. And tab 12 would be?

23 THE REGISTRAR: P1012, Your Honours -- 1011.

24 JUDGE ORIE: 11, yes, that would be the next number. And that's a

25 telephone intercept, 12th of May, 1992, interlocutors being Popadic and

Page 18923

1 Gagovic.

2 Then we'll ask the victims and witness -- yes, Mr. Harmon.

3 MR. HARMON: Sorry, Your Honour. The Court also inquired about

4 the tab number for item number 1.


6 MR. HARMON: I can get that information to Your Honours if you

7 wish.


9 MR. HARMON: The exhibit number is P64A.


11 MR. HARMON: Binder 15, footnote 308.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Footnote 308. Yes.

13 MR. HARMON: I will have to clarify - I can by the end of the

14 day - Prosecution Exhibit 1001.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which is under tab 3.

16 Mr. Banduka, you have been -- you have raised an issue concerning

17 a diary. Mr. Josse will consider during the breaks this afternoon whether

18 there's any need to put any further questions to you, but it will be

19 limited to today.

20 MR. JOSSE: Would the Court either permit me or would the Court

21 invite the witness if he can give any other identifying detail about the

22 diary? For example, the name of the soldier, anything of that sort?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know anything more about it, for example, when

24 it was used in the Milosevic case, when -- or what's the name of the

25 fallen soldier or -- well, whatever, in order to assist Mr. Josse to

Page 18924

1 identify the document. Do you perhaps know whether it was recently

2 introduced in the Milosevic case, already some time ago, or ...

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe you didn't understand me. I

4 didn't say that it was presented to any of the witnesses in the Milosevic

5 case. I just asked the person who was then the deputy chief of police,

6 who is now retired, who remembers the diary, and he told me: I believe

7 that we handed all of that over to the investigators who came from The

8 Hague.

9 I don't know whether the document has actually been used in court.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That makes it not easier, Mr. Josse.

11 So I wanted to give you a fair opportunity to investigate the

12 matter, but it might be that, on the basis of this information, that it

13 would not be possible to do it today.

14 Then still I'll ask the witness to remain standby if suddenly

15 something comes up, and since Mr. Harmon told us that he would assist you

16 to the extent possible. At least the word "diary," and perhaps the

17 location might assist you.

18 It's well possible that this concludes your testimony, but we'll

19 ask you to remain standby this afternoon. If Mr. Josse wants to further

20 pursue that matter, that you're available. If we would not see you back

21 any more, if Mr. Josse would not request us to call you again for these

22 questions, I'd like to thank you very much for having come to The Hague

23 and for answering the questions of both parties and the questions of the

24 Judges, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 18925

1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, the witness may be escorted out of the

2 courtroom.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then we're close to the time when we would have a

5 break anyhow, but I'd like to go into private session just for one moment.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 18926

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until five minutes past 4.00 and

18 we'll then continue in closed session to hear the testimony of the next

19 witness called by the Defence, for which protective measures are in place.

20 --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in closed session, Your Honours.

23 [Closed session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 18927











11 Pages 18927-18986 redacted. Closed session.















Page 18987

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of

8 November, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.