Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19241

1 Tuesday, 6 December 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.39 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Mr. Stewart, before we ask the usher to escort the witness into

11 the courtroom, could you give us an estimate on how much time you'd still

12 need.

13 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, certainly. I shall finish

14 comfortably within the first session. As I indicated to Mr. Tieger

15 yesterday, I expected to finish in this session. And at the moment,

16 Your Honour, I expect that I will finish comfortably within one hour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because we'd like to find some time, at least,

18 to deal with some procedural matters as well. It might be after the first

19 break.

20 Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

21 courtroom.

22 Mr. Stewart, perhaps I'm ready to inform you about one of the

23 issues not to be discussed at this moment is the two weeks advanced notice

24 of witnesses and summaries which seems not -- where you earlier talked

25 about always slippage somewhere, that what seems now to be routine rather

Page 19242

1 than slippage somewhere.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ORIE: That's the matter I would like to discuss at a later

4 stage this afternoon, but perhaps already for you to be aware of what it

5 is.

6 Good afternoon, Ms. Hrvacanin. Before I remind you that you're

7 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given yesterday, I must admit

8 to the parties that I made a mistake yesterday by not asking the witness

9 not to speak with -- or not asking, but not instructing the witness to

10 speak with anyone about the testimony already given and still to be given.

11 I noticed after the hearing that I had forgotten this.

12 Mrs. Hrvacanin, were you informed by the Victims and Witnesses

13 Section that you should not speak with anyone about your testimony?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Madam Rita told me about this.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And may I take it that you followed that

16 instruction?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I only spoke to my husband,

18 but only about the state of his health.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I apologise for not having instructed you and

20 to the parties as well. But I thought it was better to deal with it in

21 open court so that we also know that Madam Hrvacanin was instructed,

22 although through other channels, not to speak with anyone and that she

23 adhered to those instructions.

24 Mr. Stewart.

25 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I feel I should have issued a

Page 19243

1 reminder, Your Honour, as well. But if it offers any additional

2 reassurance, I had previously impressed on Ms. Hrvacanin that she should

3 and would be incommunicado during her evidence.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

5 Ms. Hrvacanin, as I said before, I remind you that you're still

6 bound by this solemn declaration that you gave yesterday.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]

11 Q. Ms. Hrvacanin, you gave evidence yesterday about the frequency of

12 your visits to Sarajevo over various periods and your attendance at the

13 Main Board. I want to ask you about Main Board meetings. When you first

14 were a member of the Main Board from sometime in 1990 onwards, what was a

15 typical number of people who were present at a Main Board meeting when you

16 attended?

17 A. At first it was between 20 and 25 people.

18 Q. And who in the early months when you attended Main Board meetings,

19 if it was indeed the same person, who presided over those meetings?

20 A. President Karadzic.

21 Q. Did that remain the position during the whole of 1990 to 1992,

22 whenever you attended Main Board meetings?

23 A. That's the way it was all the time.

24 Q. Was Dr. Karadzic always there or were there occasions when, for

25 whatever reason, he wasn't present at Main Board meetings?

Page 19244

1 A. No. He was always at Main Board meetings.

2 Q. Was -- were there any other senior figures in the SDS who were

3 either always present or, for practical purposes, nearly always present?

4 A. The Main Board meetings were usually attended by members of the

5 Main Board. Other people came very seldom, except when necessary.

6 Mrs. Plavsic was not a member of the Main Board, but she often attended

7 Main Board meetings.

8 Q. Were there any other senior figures in the SDS who also often

9 attended Main Board meetings?

10 A. I'm not sure that I understood your question properly. Were --

11 was there a sufficient member of other senior figures? I mean, if I said

12 that there were members of the Main Board there, I think I've said enough.

13 Q. Well, I'm going to, just for the tiny warning to Mr. Tieger, I'm

14 going to risk giving you a batch of names that I'm going to ask you

15 about --

16 JUDGE ORIE: However, Mr. Stewart, it seems to me that perhaps due

17 to a bad translation that the witness had not fully understood the

18 question. Because the way in which she phrases the question when she says

19 that she answered that question already. So could we give it one more try

20 before you do that exercise. Perhaps I would try -- you said at the Main

21 Board meetings, that they were usually attended by members of the Main

22 Board and that other people came very seldom. Were there, among those

23 other people, who, although came seldom, that some people attended, if not

24 frequently then at least with some regularity? Could you name any of the

25 people that came in and attended, apart from Mrs. Plavsic?

Page 19245

1 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry. Could I say, with respect, Your Honour,

2 I'm having difficult with the question when it asks: Who among those who

3 came seldom attended, if not frequently at least with some regularly. We

4 seem to have, I believe, a bit of confusion being built in there, with

5 respect.


7 Could you give us names of other senior SDS people, apart from

8 Mrs. Plavsic, you mentioned already, that would attend meetings of the

9 Main Board?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In addition to the members of the

11 Main Board, the members of the Executive Board attended, that is an

12 executive body of the Main Board. Meetings were also attended by some

13 presidents of municipalities when they happened to be there or if they had

14 some questions. Because in essence, Serbs are very inquisitive, they want

15 to know everything, and they also do not trust other people. So often

16 they attended such meetings. The late Vice-President Koljevic also

17 attended meetings. In 1990, I didn't see some other people who were

18 otherwise in political life at meetings of the Main Board.

19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, what I -- what I was proposing to do --


21 MR. STEWART: -- and it didn't seem to be a terrible piece of

22 leading, I was proposing to give a list of four, five, six names that

23 would indisputably, I submit, both for the Prosecution and the Defence, be

24 regarded as senior figures in the SDS. We wouldn't say they weren't, the

25 Prosecution say they weren't. I feel relatively confident, Your Honour,

Page 19246

1 that if I give a list of that nature, that's not going to frighten the

2 horses or Mr. Tieger unduly.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger is still sitting so I can't see that he

4 objects.

5 MR. TIEGER: I can't speak for the horses, Your Honour, but I'm

6 satisfied.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.


9 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, among senior figures in the SDS who've been

10 discussed in this case, it might be included Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Koljevic,

11 Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Dukic, and, of course, Dr. Karadzic, who

12 you've already mentioned.

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I don't see Mr. Tieger falling apart

14 with fear and consternation of that list.

15 Q. Now, among those people, Mrs. Hrvacanin, you've mentioned

16 Dr. Karadzic already, you've mentioned Mr. Koljevic already. Of those

17 other people I've mentioned, did any of them attend with any frequency

18 Main Board meetings?

19 A. Well, you mentioned Mr. Velibor Ostojic; he attended all meetings.

20 You mentioned Mr. Dukic, Rajko; he also took part in all meetings. You

21 mentioned Mr. Krajisnik. In 1991 Mr. Krajisnik became a member of the

22 Main Board. Until 1990, he never attended meetings of the Main Board.

23 Well, he wasn't always present at Main Board meetings, but he was present

24 often.

25 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, you said a moment ago "that I had mentioned

Page 19247

1 Mr. Krajisnik. In 1991 he became a member of the Main Board." Then you

2 said "until 1990 he never attended meetings of the Main Board." I just

3 ask you: Did Mr. Krajisnik ever attend meetings of the Main Board before

4 he became a member of the board in 1991?

5 A. No. I claim that with full responsibility, never.

6 Q. So after he became a member of the Main Board, can you remember

7 with what frequency, in percentage terms, of meetings Mr. Krajisnik

8 attended Main Board meetings?

9 A. No. I said that it wasn't very often, but he did attend sessions

10 of the Main Board. He didn't have any particular influence. He was

11 there. He listened to what other participants in the debate had to say.

12 He hardly ever took the floor at Main Board meetings.

13 Q. What -- during the period that you attended Main Board meetings --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, before we continue, the witness in the

15 last answer, you, Mrs. Hrvacanin, you said: "No. I said it wasn't very

16 often," whereas the transcript of one of your previous answers

17 reads: "Until 1990 he never attended meetings of the Main Board. Well,

18 he wasn't always present at Main Board meetings but he was present often."

19 Now a few lines later you say: "I said he was -- it wasn't very

20 often," whereas we get a translation of your testimony that he often

21 attended.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that what I

23 said must have been mistranslated. What I said was the following, that

24 Mr. Krajisnik was not a member of the Main Board until 1990, and he never

25 attended Main Board meetings.

Page 19248


2 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin --

3 A. Then --

4 Q. May I pause for a moment. His Honour read back to you an answer

5 where you said "until 1990 he never attended meetings of the Main Board,"

6 but I had asked you a supplemental question. Just now -- a moment ago you

7 said Mr. Krajisnik, not a member of the Main Board until 1990.

8 Mrs. Hrvacanin I feel safe in leading here. You have already said,

9 haven't you, and this is correct, Mr. Krajisnik did not become a member of

10 the Main Board until 1991. That's right, isn't it?

11 A. I can hear some music.

12 Q. We're all getting music, Your Honour, which is very pleasant in

13 its way but rather disruptive.

14 A. It's not right. It's not right. It doesn't allow me to focus.

15 Your Honour, I did not understand the question put by Mr. Stewart because

16 this music kept coming in and --

17 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, relax. I'm sure we shall sort out the music issue

18 for you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mrs. Hrvacanin, don't be afraid that anyone

20 puts music on the line in order to --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not afraid.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The music is gone now?


24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you repeat your question, Mr. Stewart.


Page 19249


2 Q. Not to music this time, Mrs. Hrvacanin. It is quite clear, isn't

3 it, Mr. Krajisnik did not become a member of the Main Board until 1991?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. And before he became a member of the Main Board, he didn't attend

6 Main Board meetings. Is that also correct?

7 A. That's correct, too.

8 Q. And what I would now like you to do, Mrs. Hrvacanin, is just to

9 carefully concentrate on informing Their Honours how often, in your

10 recollection, Mr. Krajisnik attended Main Board meetings after he became a

11 member?

12 A. When Mr. Krajisnik became a member of the Main Board, he attended

13 meetings but not often and not regularly. He was president of the

14 Assembly, so when he had time, when he was free, he attended meetings.

15 What the frequency was I cannot say. Was it five times? Was it ten

16 times? I did not go into such analyses, I am sorry, but it was often.

17 Q. The Main Board meetings that you attended, Mrs. Hrvacanin, what --

18 what sort of discussions, if you can say this, generally took place in

19 relation to SDS and political matters? What level and type of discussion

20 was there?

21 A. Well, usually it would be a discussion that would start with

22 current issues that had to be resolved. In 1991 the atmosphere was rather

23 heated. The then-Yugoslav army had left Slovenia. Then in Croatia the

24 army was being expelled, too, and we were very upset. When I say "we," I

25 think it was Serbs, Croats, and Muslims who felt upset. Regardless of the

Page 19250

1 fact that I'm an anti-communist, there is still a defence from the point

2 of view of every individual, and that was this army which, regrettably,

3 experienced such a fiasco.

4 At Main Board meetings there were discussions about the Yugoslav

5 national army, which considered us to be enemies. All nationalists, that

6 is, regardless of whether they were Serbs, Croats, or Muslims. So there

7 were such discussions. If anything were to happen, if our former state of

8 Yugoslavia were to fall apart, who would defend us? Since the Main Board

9 had regional representation from all parts of the former

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, then every member of the Main Board would speak about

11 what was topical for his region or area or town where he lived. Those

12 were mainly the subjects that the Main Board dealt with.

13 Q. Did the Main Board take decisions?

14 A. It depends which decisions.

15 Q. Well, is the answer yes or no? It took decisions?

16 A. It issues recommendations. It could not issue any decisions; it

17 was not in a position to do that. We were a democratic party, which was

18 organised according to a democratic principle. There were no orders and

19 there were no executions of any orders. We would pass conclusions on a

20 certain issue, and those conclusions were binding upon some and not

21 binding upon some others. So, in other words, nobody had to do what the

22 Main Board concluded.

23 Q. To whom or what did the Main Board issue recommendations?

24 A. To the members of the Main Board.

25 Q. So you're talking about the Main Board issuing recommendations to

Page 19251

1 the members of the Main Board. When you say "it issued recommendations to

2 the members of the Main Board," are you -- do you mean as a group or to

3 individual members?

4 A. Nobody received an individual order. An order was not issued to a

5 certain name, but when we arrived at a conclusion, we would agree that

6 something should be done. At that time we were talking about the

7 tripartite, administration in the municipalities, we opted for dialogue,

8 for the establishment of local governments. That was the agreement that

9 we were discussing at the time, so nobody was issued with any orders. It

10 was not a party that was in a position to issue any such orders.

11 Everybody could say whether they wanted to say, and if they didn't do

12 something, it was not punishable in any way for this failure to do

13 things -- or at least I was never punished for not following up on the

14 conclusions.

15 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, were you ever a member of the Executive Board of

16 the SDS?

17 A. No, never.

18 Q. Did you ever attend any meeting of the Executive Board of the SDS?

19 A. Never. Not once.

20 Q. Were you ever invited to a meeting of the Executive Board of the

21 SDS?

22 A. No, never.

23 Q. Would you or did you have any expectation that you should or would

24 be invited to any meeting of the Executive Board of the SDS?

25 A. No, I didn't expect that. But on one occasion I wanted to attend

Page 19252

1 the meeting of the Main Board, but I was prevented from doing that. At

2 the time the president was Mr. Ostojic, and he said that those who were

3 not members of the Executive Board could not attend any of its meetings.

4 And I accepted that.

5 Q. Were you able, from your membership of the Main Board and any

6 other activities in connection with the SDS, to form any impression

7 yourself of the relative power and authority of the Main Board and the

8 executive committee?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Before the witness answers that question, could I

10 seek clarification from her previous answer.

11 I read your answer translated as it is in English, "but on one

12 occasion I wanted to attend the meeting of the Main Board, but I was

13 prevented from doing that. At the time the time the president was

14 Mr. Ostojic, and he said that those who were not members of the Executive

15 Board could not attend any of its meetings. And I accepted that."

16 Did you want to attend the meeting of the Main Board or of the

17 Executive Board?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Executive Board, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that's either translation or slip of the

20 tongue. Thank you for your clarification.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that was very well spotted, if I may

23 say so, Your Honour. I had not noticed that.

24 Q. The -- so what I was asking you then, Mrs. Hrvacanin, was whether

25 you were able to form any impression of the relative power and authority

Page 19253

1 of the Main Board and the executive committee, as between the two of them?

2 A. The Executive Board had more power. In my view the Main Board was

3 nothing but a debate club.

4 Q. Did the Main Board ever discuss six strategic objectives?

5 A. No, never.

6 Q. Did the Main Board ever discuss Crisis Staffs?

7 A. No, never.

8 Q. Did the Main Board ever discuss Variants A and B?

9 A. No, and I said it already yesterday, never.

10 Q. Did the Main Board discuss any aspect of any of the international

11 negotiations being conducted in relation to Bosnia?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were you present on any occasion at any organ of the SDS when

14 reports were received of the outcome of such international negotiations?

15 A. Only if a member of the Main Board would put a question when

16 people went to The Hague or to Brussels to attend negotiations as to what

17 had happened there, what had been agreed there. If there was such an

18 initiative of one of the members of the Main Board, a report would be

19 submitted in one form or another. But that was a very rare occasion.

20 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, the next point I'm putting to you is not in

21 dispute. There was for a period in the early -- the spring and early

22 summer along to midsummer of 1992, a break in ease of transport and

23 communication between Banja Luka and Pale and a corridor was opened up

24 sometime in late June of 1992. But during that period of a break in ease

25 of communication, did you travel or did you go to Pale at any time?

Page 19254

1 A. Not during that period of time, never.

2 Q. Did you attend the meeting of the Republika Srpska Assembly held

3 in Banja Luka on the 12th of May, 1992?

4 A. I did.

5 Q. Do you recall any of the topics of discussion at that Assembly

6 meeting?

7 A. Up to then Mrs. Plavsic and Professor Koljevic were elected to the

8 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina during the multi-party elections, and

9 they performed those duties up to that session. At that session,

10 Mr. Radovan Karadzic was proposed as a member of that Presidency. I was

11 informed by the media that Mr. Karadzic had been elected at the president

12 of the Presidency. Mrs. Plavsic and Professor Koljevic were its members,

13 and Dr. Karadzic became its president.

14 Q. Did you in 1992 have any knowledge of any organ or group known as

15 the expanded Presidency?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you -- in 1992, were you aware of any executive power

18 possessed by Mr. Krajisnik as a -- in whatever capacity as a senior figure

19 in the SDS?

20 A. Mr. Krajisnik was not a high-ranking member of the SDS. He was a

21 member of the Main Board, as anybody else. He was elected in the

22 multi-parliament -- multi-party elections. He became a deputy and

23 representative of all the three peoples. And later on, he represented

24 only the people of Republika Srpska. He was a member of the Serbian

25 Assembly. He was not a member of the extended Presidency. Such a

Page 19255

1 Presidency did not exist for that matter. There was a Presidency that

2 consisted of three members: Mr. Karadzic, Mrs. Plavsic, and

3 Professor Koljevic. As for some special authorities, Mr. Krajisnik did

4 not have any, save for his own authorities and competences within the work

5 of the Assembly.

6 Q. Within 1992 and specifically following that meeting of the 12th of

7 May, 1992, in Banja Luka, were you personally aware of anything relating

8 to the six strategic objectives?

9 A. There was talk about that. I personally don't know anything

10 particular about that.

11 Q. Where and between whom did that talk take place?

12 A. I'm talking about the media. I believe that Cutileiro's plan was

13 discussed by journalists and the six strategic goals. I personally didn't

14 see that.

15 Q. Within the --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to ask a question to the

17 witness.

18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm sorry to interrupt,

19 Mr. Stewart. It's about an answer that the witness gave us. Speaking

20 about Mr. Krajisnik, she said: He became deputy -- [In English] "And

21 representative of all three peoples, and later on he represented only the

22 people of Republika Srpska."

23 [Interpretation] That's what you said, right? That --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again the interpretation was not

25 good, Your Honour. I said that Mr. Krajisnik was elected as a member of

Page 19256

1 the Serbian Democratic Party during the multi-party elections. But he was

2 appointed into the Bosnian Assembly on behalf of all the three peoples,

3 the Croats, the Serbs, and the Muslims. When the Assembly divided, then

4 it was only the Serbian people, and Serbian representatives joined the SDS

5 group of representatives.

6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. But in your answer you seem

7 to neglect the fact that he was also president of the Assembly.

8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wonder whether it might be helped to

9 be specific about which Assembly Your Honour is mentioning at the end of

10 that question in order to --

11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: Republika Srpska.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. He was the president of

13 the Assembly of Republika Srpska.

14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. So for you, doesn't that

15 mean that he had a more important role than just being an MP representing

16 the people?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was the first among the equals.

18 All the representatives stood a chance to be appointed presidents by the

19 way they got into power. The people had chosen them. And Mr. Krajisnik

20 was chosen to be president of the Assembly. He chaired the meetings of

21 the Assembly, but he did not have any particular power. He did not have

22 the power to appoint somebody or remove somebody from any position. He

23 could not issue orders to anybody. Knowing Mr. Krajisnik well, I don't

24 think it's in his nature to do that. He is a great democrat. He is a

25 very tolerant man, and he enjoyed a very charismatic reputation among the

Page 19257

1 people. And during the multi-party elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina, he

2 had been elected by the three peoples there. He was a very good chairman

3 of the Assembly meetings. There were no heated discussions when he

4 chaired the meetings, he didn't prevent anybody from speaking, and that's

5 why he was very popular. But he was not powerful.

6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Now, regarding Republika Srpska,

7 could you say that he had a certain authority on his colleagues, over his

8 colleagues?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but not the highest authority.

10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] What authority did he have?

11 Could you expand on this a little bit.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my previous answer I told you

13 that Mr. Krajisnik did not have a lot of influence, either on the police

14 or on the army, either on any of the ministers or on their appointments or

15 removals, for that matter. His function and his authorities were within

16 the framework of the work that he did, and that was stipulated by the law.

17 I am a doctor. I'm not familiar with the law. I apologise, but this is

18 what I can say because this is as much as I know. His authorities stemmed

19 from the law that provided him with that authority.

20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [No interpretation]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, may I ask the attention, both of

22 you, Mr. Stewart and Mr. Tieger, page 14, lines 12 to 18, the answer

23 starts with: "The election of Mrs. Plavsic and Professor Koljevic to the

24 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina." Later on in that answer the

25 words "Presidency" is used again, but I understand this reference to the

Page 19258

1 Presidency not as a reference to the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina

2 anymore but to the Presidency of Republika Srpska, although it's not

3 explicit. If you would understand it in different way, it should be

4 clarified with the witness. If that's your common understanding, then we

5 can proceed.

6 MR. STEWART: That's my understanding, Your Honour, and I don't

7 see Mr. Tieger --

8 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we can proceed.

10 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Yes, Your Honour, may I be clear that Judge Hanoteau finished

12 his --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, he finished, and then I raised --

14 MR. STEWART: I'm obliged, Your Honour. Thank you.

15 Q. The -- Mrs. Hrvacanin, at the time of the Banja Luka, Republika

16 Srpska, meeting on the 12th of May, 1992, what -- can you say what degree

17 of either satisfaction or dissatisfaction there was among you and your

18 other active colleagues in the SDS about the formulation of goals for the

19 party?

20 A. I apologise. At that meeting we did not discuss the goals of the

21 party. Those were a parliamentary Assembly meeting attended by the

22 deputies, if we are referring to the 12th of May, 1992.

23 Q. And, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I'm really focussing on the date that the --

24 the time of mid-May 1992. So just to put a date on it and asking you

25 whether at that time, mid-May 1992, whether you can say what level of

Page 19259

1 satisfaction or dissatisfaction there was among active members of the SDS

2 about the formulation of goals of the SDS?

3 A. At that Assembly meeting there were no SDS goals. The only thing

4 that happened was the election of President Karadzic. There were no other

5 goals mentioned as far as I know.

6 Q. Were you personally, as a member of the SDS at that time,

7 satisfied that the party's goals were sufficiently clear?

8 A. I was satisfied. I would not have been a member of that party had

9 I not been satisfied.

10 Q. Just going back to Zenica. You, of course, had left as you told

11 Their Honours. But did you -- in the period as you were leaving and after

12 you left Zenica at the end of February 1992, did you come into any sort of

13 conflict with your former friends and colleagues in Zenica?

14 A. No, never. I am not fond of conflict. I am that kind of person.

15 I always seek dialogue among people.

16 Q. Was there any type of disagreement about your activities with

17 anybody in Zenica at that time?

18 A. There were disagreements. They didn't like me being in the SDS.

19 My colleagues at work told me that I should leave the party. My colleague

20 Alic was a member of the SDA. I was his boss, the head of his service.

21 So I told him: "If you can be a member of your party, why can't I be a

22 member of mine?" And he said: "Of course." I did not enter any

23 particular conflict with anybody. I was not in conflict with anybody.

24 Q. Was any action taken by anybody in Zenica that had a bearing on

25 your own reputation?

Page 19260

1 A. Yes, of course, that did happen. When I left Zenica, some people

2 did not like the fact that I had saved my hide and that I'm still alive

3 today. There were plans for my assassination. Then they started telling

4 really bad things about me. One of them was that I had given the list of

5 SDS members and of all Serbs to the Muslims, and that based on those

6 lists, the Muslims went on to arrest the Serbs and incarcerate them in the

7 KP Dom Zenica where they were later on ill-treated, starved to death. At

8 one point in time, there were over 300 such people. Mr. Milan Mitrovic

9 wrote a book about that, describing the hardships of Serbs in Central

10 Bosnia. And there was also a serial in Glas Srpski a newspaper published

11 in Banja Luka during the communist times. The name of that paper was only

12 Glas, not Glas Srpski. Well, since I wasn't killed by the Muslims, the

13 Serbs wanted to be the end of me because I had betrayed them. I had a lot

14 of problems with that.

15 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, first of all, who was it who said that you had

16 given lists of SDS members to the Muslims?

17 A. I don't know. This was a story I heard. Mr. Stojan Zivanovic,

18 who is a professor at the school of philosophy in Banja Luka and who is a

19 native of Zenica told me once the war was over -- I was in Zenica and I

20 asked the people whether you had provided the Muslims with some lists.

21 And they said no. And then he said to them: But there are stories to

22 that effect. I don't know who spread those stories, but I know that that

23 story came from Zenica with every refugee that arrived in the territory of

24 Banja Luka.

25 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, first of all when you were in Zenica did you in

Page 19261

1 fact have access to lists of SDS members?

2 A. No, I did not have access to SDS members. This was done by the

3 technical service and the secretary. I never looked at the list of SDS

4 members. I personally believe that this was a private matter of every

5 individual. An affiliation to a party is a private thing. Nobody should

6 know that, and I didn't know who members of the SDS were. I knew about

7 some of my associates, the inner circle of my associates, if they were

8 members of the SDS.

9 Q. Was there any truth in any suggestion that you had supplied

10 information about SDS membership in any way to Muslims?

11 A. God forbid. I left suddenly. Nobody knew. The chief

12 administrator of my institution knew because I had told him that I could

13 no longer bear the physical threats. I asked him for an unpaid leave of

14 two months, and then if I could not find a job and a livelihood in Banja

15 Luka, I volunteered to come back to Zenica. He was astonished when he

16 heard that I was leaving. And he said to me: What is the matter with

17 you? You can't leave here. We can protect you. I don't want to lose you

18 as a professional. Unfortunately, I left my husband, stayed there during

19 those two months, and he told me that I should not come back, that I

20 should stay where I was at all costs.

21 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, thank you.

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I have no further questions for

23 Mrs. Hrvacanin.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

25 Perhaps, Mr. Tieger, we are -- I wouldn't say close to the time

Page 19262

1 where we usually have a break since we had a late start. Would you

2 nevertheless prefer to have the break now and then start your

3 cross-examination? Or would you rather start now and have a break to stop

4 in, let's say, approximately 15 minutes.

5 MR. TIEGER: I would prefer the break initially, Your Honour,

6 particularly if we're going to address some procedural matters.


8 MR. TIEGER: That seems to make more sense.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then before we have a break, I have one

10 additional question directly related to questions about SDS membership.

11 Could you tell us how many SDS members there were approximately in Zenica?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you look at the plebiscite list,

13 you will see that the number was large. There were probably over 2 or

14 3.000 of them.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Is this to say that those who participated in the

16 plebiscite were all SDS members?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Over 20.000 people took part in

18 the plebiscite.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How could I see on those -- on the plebiscite

20 list, which I think is not in evidence as far as Zenica is concerned -- is

21 it indicated that someone is an SDS member or -- because you say: "If you

22 look at the plebiscite list, you will see that the number is large."

23 I was talking about members of the SDS in Zenica. So how could I

24 read that from that list? Is it indicated, or is there any other way to

25 find out about SDS membership of those who participated in the plebiscite?

Page 19263

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no. This was not indicated in

2 any way. God forbid that anybody should be marked as an SDS member if

3 they participated in the plebiscite. The Muslims and Croats who wanted to

4 live in a joint state participated in the plebiscite as well, not only

5 Serbs. But when I say that there were over 3.000 of them --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say there were 2 or 3.000, although we

7 cannot learn that from the list. Is that correct?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have those lists. I only

9 have a photo from the founding Assembly of the SDS, and you can tell by

10 the photo that there were over a thousand people there.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, we have over a thousand and we have 2 to

12 3.000. I'm just trying to find out how many members there approximately

13 were and what your source of knowledge is. When you mention 2 to 3.000,

14 what was the source of your knowledge?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The source of my knowledge were the

16 local communes with a predominant Serb population such as Raspotocje,

17 Drivusa, Perin Han, and Mutnica. Those people were members of the SDS.

18 In town there were not as many members of the SDS; I'm talking about the

19 centre of town. And if you take into account the number of the population

20 of those local communes, if I do the maths I can tell you that there were

21 about 3.000 SDS members.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you're explaining to me how the membership

23 was spread over the town and some villages. But how would you know that

24 in town there would be less SDS members and in the villages there would be

25 more?

Page 19264

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because only Muslims lived in town.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But were all Serbs SDS members?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE ORIE: How would you know the number of SDS members? Were

5 they registered somewhere, either in the villages or in the town? I mean

6 if you say "they were not all members," how would you know how many of

7 them were members?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was an admission sheet where

9 one was supposed to fill out his name and surname, identification number,

10 date of birth, place of birth, father's name, and the date when this

11 person joined the party or movement, as it was then; and then that went to

12 the headquarters in Sarajevo. Judging by the number of IDs that we got as

13 members of the SDS -- well, every ID had its own number.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So membership was registered, was processed through

15 Zenica to Sarajevo, and IDs being sent back. And that's the source of

16 your knowledge of some 2 to 3.000 members of the SDS in Zenica? Is that a

17 correct understanding?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.

20 We will adjourn until 10 minutes -- 5 minutes past 4.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber intended to finalise its own discussions

25 on the procedural matters during this break. We couldn't find the time,

Page 19265

1 however, so that is postponed most likely until after the next break.

2 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to cross-examine Mrs. Hrvacanin?

3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. In terms of the finalisation of

4 the procedural matters, perhaps I -- I think I understood them to include

5 issues related to the time limits of 65 ter summaries. If not, I could

6 raise that now if they are intended to be raised after the next break,

7 then, of course --

8 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, we'd prefer you to do that after

9 the next break or even tomorrow -- no, we're not sitting tomorrow, I

10 think. But at the earliest occasion. We understood that the Prosecution

11 had quite some concerns about the timing of providing 65 ter summaries,

12 and that's not unnoticed.

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, can I say that -- perhaps this is what

14 we have in mind now Your Honour's reference to tomorrow. We would have a

15 preference if it -- raised today, simply because I'm going to be here

16 today and I feel I should deal with this matter --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Preferably, yes. At the same time the Judges

18 need some time to discuss these kind of matters also to form its own

19 preliminary opinion, just perhaps looking at what happened to be certain

20 about what the facts are at this moment before we hear the parties because

21 we could ask specific questions better if we are prepared as well.

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may -- I entirely understand that.

23 Your Honour --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We will try to see whether we could deal with

25 it today. If not, we'll see.

Page 19266

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could it be this way, if it's not

2 inconvenient for Your Honour. If it's not possible to be dealt with

3 today, could it be dealt with on Friday?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing will change this week, so --

5 MR. STEWART: I feel it's my responsibility to deal with it --

6 JUDGE ORIE: If we can't deal with it today you would prefer to

7 deal with it yourself and then preferably on Friday?


9 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record.

10 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much.

11 MR. TIEGER: I would simply indicate that Mr. Stewart and I have

12 had a preliminary opportunity to discuss generally the nature of the

13 Prosecution's concerned and its potential impact on the schedule. I

14 simply indicate that --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, if Mr. Stewart could take away your

16 concerns or at least diminish them to such a level that you don't have to

17 bother the Chamber with it any more, then, of course, that would be

18 preferred. But --

19 MR. TIEGER: I wish that was the case. I was simply --

20 MR. STEWART: I try not to aggravate them, Your Honour, that's

21 probably my ambition some of the time.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the level of ambition is not something --

23 MR. STEWART: I'm doing what I can, Your Honour. At least we're

24 talking to each other about it and that's --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and you're still smiling.

Page 19267

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I simply wanted to indicate to

2 Mr. Stewart, that those concerns were going to be raised.

3 JUDGE ORIE: The other matter, by the way, would be the pending

4 admission of exhibits. There are lots of them, some waiting for

5 translation. We would like to categorise them, briefly see what we have,

6 and to make arrangements for solution of this problem so that we -- they

7 would not be pending forever. Also because the Chamber can't proceed if

8 we don't have translations, if we do not know what is in evidence,

9 because, as you'll understood, some digestion of the evidence takes place

10 outside of this courtroom.

11 Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort Mrs. Hrvacanin.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hrvacanin, you'll now be cross-examined by

14 Mr. Tieger, who is counsel for the Prosecution.

15 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Tieger:

20 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Hrvacanin.

21 A. [No interpretation]

22 Q. You mentioned, and I believe that's found at page 35 of the

23 LiveNote of the testimony, that's for the benefit of Defence counsel and

24 the Court, that you thought you were in Sarajevo on the 19th, 20th, and

25 21st of December in connection with the Assembly session you discussed and

Page 19268

1 the meeting that took place in the Holiday Inn that you mentioned

2 thereafter.

3 And I wanted first to ask you whether you were indicating that you

4 were there on all three days or the 19th, 20th, or 21st. Can you tell us

5 what that reference was to, what specific dates you were referring to?

6 A. I was in Sarajevo for three days. I was there on the 19th, the

7 20th, and the 21st.

8 Q. And did you customarily arrive in Sarajevo or wherever the site of

9 an Assembly session was a day or two in advance of that session?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Tieger, could you please speak closer to the

11 microphone, because we can't hear you. Thank you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think the session was on the

13 19th -- I beg your pardon, on the 20th. And I came a daily earlier

14 because I had things to do at the dental faculty of the university of

15 Sarajevo.


17 Q. You also explained to the Court that you did not know about any

18 similar-size meeting that took place in December of 1991 and did not

19 believe that could have been such a meeting. That was at page 34 -- 44 of

20 the LiveNote, I believe.

21 A. Yes, that's what I'm saying now, too.

22 Q. So as far as you're concerned, there was no meeting other than the

23 Assembly session and the spontaneous meeting you testified about of

24 Bosnian Serb officials scheduled for the 19th, 20th, or 21st of December?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 19269

1 Q. And by the same token, if there was one that had been scheduled,

2 you don't know anything about that?

3 A. I should know if one had been planned, but I don't know anything

4 about a planned meeting.

5 Q. Now, this Court has had the opportunity to receive the audio and

6 transcript of a telephone conversation involving Dr. Karadzic on the 19th

7 of December, 1991, in which Dr. Karadzic said, and if --

8 MR. TIEGER: This is, Your Honour, P67 intercept, tab 21. I don't

9 know if it's part of the bundle, but it can be distributed now or later as

10 Court wishes or as counsel wishes. As I say it is in evidence at P67

11 intercept, tab 21.

12 Q. On that occasion, Mrs. Hrvacanin, Dr. Karadzic said: "They can go

13 fuck themselves. I'll introduce this Friday. I'll introduce a

14 second-degree state of emergency, and I'll teach everyone who fucks around

15 a fucking lesson."

16 And Mr. Novakovic on the other end said: "Is that so?"

17 Dr. Karadzic said: "Yes, yes, they were here from this region and

18 they'll let you know who needs to come. It's our Assembly session here on

19 Saturday."

20 For your benefit, Mrs. Hrvacanin, having checked the calendar for

21 1991, I can tell you the 21st of December was a Saturday, the 20th was a

22 Friday.

23 Then Dr. Karadzic continued in the conversation at a slightly

24 later point after saying, as Mr. Novakovic said: "So we'll be here on

25 Saturday. Is that right?"

Page 19270

1 And Dr. Karadzic said: "On Saturday -- and on Friday all these

2 people of yours need to come. You have it there about how -- who needs to

3 come and so" -- and Mr. Novakovic asks: "Uh-huh, all right, all right.

4 What does this second degree imply?"

5 Dr. Karadzic says: "Well, you'll see."

6 I take it from you've told us earlier then, you don't know

7 anything about any meeting on Friday or on the day before the scheduled

8 Assembly session during which Dr. Karadzic would introduce this state of

9 emergency?

10 A. That is correct, that I didn't know anything about this. But by

11 your leave, Your Honours, there is something strange about this.

12 Dr. Karadzic does not swear at all when he speaks, whereas many swear

13 words were used in this passage. I don't want to express any doubts or

14 suspicions, but perhaps the interpreters have misinterpreted this because

15 this is very bad behaviour, all this swearing.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hrvacanin, I fully agree with you that swearing

19 is not what one would expect from civilised persons, but the Chamber is in

20 a position, in view of the many intercepts we have listened to, to form

21 its opinion on whether swearing of -- by the person identified in these

22 telephone conversations as Mr. Karadzic, whether that is exceptional or

23 not.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 19271

1 Q. In addition, Mrs. Hrvacanin, the diary kept by Dr. Karadzic, chef

2 de cabinet, reflects a notation by what appears to be a meeting of the

3 Main Board at 1600 on December 20th, 1991, and, again, which is Friday.

4 There are two notations on that date. In the calendar, 1600 meeting of

5 Main Board, and 1600 Main Board on the page below.

6 MR. TIEGER: That is, for the Court's benefit, P893, I think tab

7 2 -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, that's incorrect. It is P65 Treanor 5, tab

8 65, and P529, Hanson tab 374.

9 Q. Again, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I take it from what you've told us earlier

10 that you don't know anything about this reference to a Main Board

11 gathering at 1600 on December 20th, 1991, the day before the Assembly

12 session was held?

13 A. The Assembly. I don't know anything about this.

14 Q. Now, yesterday you were shown the document that is -- has been

15 called Variant A and B, the instructions of December 1991 and indicated

16 you had never seen that. When you were in -- well, in Sarajevo the 19th,

17 20th, and 21st, did Dr. Karadzic or Mr. Krajisnik issue anything requiring

18 implementation?

19 A. As far as I can remember - and that's what I said yesterday - no.

20 Neither Dr. Karadzic nor Mr. Krajisnik were distributing any kind of

21 material at that session. Now, whether somebody else was, I really don't

22 know.

23 MR. TIEGER: Now directing the Court's attention to P529 Hanson

24 tab 383.

25 Q. So, Mrs. Hrvacanin, when Dr. Karadzic said to Mr. Krajisnik in a

Page 19272

1 telephone conversation of 21 December 1991: "You know what, who will

2 implement what we issued last night?" You don't have any idea what he's

3 referring to, do you, according to you?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Now, you told the Court that you wanted to attend the session that

6 took place, the Assembly session that took place in late December because

7 there were some items on the agenda that you felt were important. And you

8 said: "What the coat of arms would be and what the anthem would be in the

9 republic."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were those items or issues important enough to you so that you

12 spoke at the Assembly about them?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. We'll turn to that in a moment, but I wanted first to discuss with

15 you the reason you gave for the proposal to have a spontaneous meeting

16 after the Assembly ended at approximately 12.00, as you told us. And I

17 believe you explained that the delegates wanted to discuss the memorandum

18 regarding independence and didn't want to do so in the blue hall for fear

19 of being overheard. I think you in fact mentioned that Serbs had loud

20 voices. Is that essentially correct?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. So I take it then that there was a reluctance to discuss it before

23 the group had adjourned to the Holiday Inn, and the group members, the

24 Assembly members, refrained from doing so until they had safely gathered

25 at the Holiday Inn for the spontaneous meeting. Is that essentially

Page 19273

1 right?

2 A. Yes, you're right.

3 Q. Apart from the issues of emblems and anthems, do you recall what

4 was discussed at the Assembly session that took place, according to you,

5 on or about December 20th, 1991?

6 A. I think that most of it focussed on the coat of arms and the

7 anthem. And I also think that independent MPs joined the Serb Assembly,

8 but please do allow for the possibility that I do not remember everything.

9 Q. I do indeed, ma'am. Well, I'm sure it won't surprise you to learn

10 that records were kept of the Assembly sessions, and I've had an

11 opportunity to look at the record of the Assembly session that was held on

12 December 21st, Saturday, 1991. And the first item on the agenda,

13 Mrs. Hrvacanin, was in fact the declaration on the guidelines for

14 recognition of new states by the council of ministers of the European

15 Community. And three speakers spoke about that right away: First,

16 Mr. Buha at page 3. He complained about this declaration by the European

17 community, and in doing so referred to the illegal memorandum and platform

18 adopted against the will of the Serbian people.

19 Then Mr. Koljevic spoke. He referred to a text that was submitted

20 to the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

21 which stated flatly: Opposition to Bosnia and Herzegovina submitting an

22 application for independence to the European Community.

23 And then Mr. Simovic spoke, and he indicated that the position of

24 the Bosnian Serb authorities was expressed in a statement entitled "Black

25 Friday for Bosnia and Herzegovina." And again he made the position of the

Page 19274

1 Bosnian Serb authorities on the memorandum for independence and on the

2 movement towards independence, quite clear, describing it as it was

3 described in the statement as a flagrant violation of the constitution.

4 And then the Assembly prepared, in fact, a letter to Lord Carrington

5 referring to the "brutal violation of the constitutional system by the

6 adoption of the Bosnian authorities of the memorandum and the subsequent

7 request for recognition."

8 Now, does that at all refresh your recollection that the position

9 of the Bosnian Serb authorities and all the delegates there was quite

10 explicit and quite clear, and there was no -- there was no need for a

11 subsequent meeting to thrash out in any way or to identify secretly in any

12 way the position regarding the memorandum?

13 A. I do recall what you just said, Mr. Prosecutor. I have no reason

14 to doubt it. I believe that all of it is true, but my memory doesn't

15 serve me very well now. I know for sure that it was said that we should

16 go to the Holiday Inn and have lunch there and, if necessary, we'll talk

17 over lunch. I stand by the statement I made yesterday.

18 Q. Well, perhaps in light of what I've just read to you, it wasn't

19 necessary to discuss the position on the memorandum but maybe some other

20 matters. So let me ask you first whether you recall any discussion at the

21 Assembly session about what the Bosnian Serbs would do in response to

22 their opposition to the memorandum and to the effort by the Bosnian

23 government to seek independence?

24 A. No, I do not recall that.

25 Q. Well, if I may, let me indicate a few speakers at that session and

Page 19275

1 what they said. First of all, do you recall anyone saying: "Unless the

2 Muslims and Croats change their minds, this will be known as the beginning

3 of the rebellion against the tyrants"?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Mr. Dukic said that at page 19 of the English transcript.

6 Do you recall anyone saying that: "It is a lie that it is

7 possible to live together"?

8 A. No.

9 Q. That was Mr. -- Dr. Koljevic of page 44 of the English transcript.

10 Do you recall anyone saying that: "The aim should be as much

11 separation as possible"?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Dr. Karadzic at page 41.

14 What about someone saying: "Each party should take what is

15 theirs, and for Serbs that means the areas where they are a minority

16 because of World War II or because of colonisation or because people move

17 to Serbia"?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Mr. Zekic at page 18.

20 A. The deputy who was killed, Mr. Zekic?

21 Q. That's correct. Do you recall anyone saying that: "There will be

22 new borders"?

23 A. As far as I know, no.

24 Q. That was Mr. Miskjen [phoen].

25 Mrs. Hrvacanin, do you recall someone saying that: "If the

Page 19276

1 European community goes ahead with the threat to recognise Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina as independent state, there will be another Serb uprising and

3 massive bloodshed in which some nations that have been subsequently

4 created will disappear"?

5 A. No.

6 Q. That was Dr. Vukic who said that, and his reference to "nations

7 that had been subsequently created," you understand as a reference, I

8 presume, to the fact that the Muslims did not become a "narod," a nation

9 until 1974?

10 A. No. They were a narod, a people, but they were recognised as a

11 nation in 1974, but they were there as a people, yes.

12 Q. Thank you for that clarification. But that's how you understand

13 that reference, I take it. Is that right? I see you nodding your

14 head "yes." Thank you.

15 And do you recall anyone saying that: "The alternative to

16 acceptance of the Serb proposals is civil war" and that that "civil war

17 would involve massive deaths and destruction and massive population

18 movements and population homogenisation"? Do you recall that,

19 Mrs. Hrvacanin?

20 A. No.

21 Q. That was Dr. Karadzic at page 40. In any event, after discussing

22 all of this at the Assembly session, according to you the assembled

23 representatives decided that there was a need for some more secure place

24 to continue the discussion. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 19277

1 Q. Well, after discussing the opposition to the memorandum and after

2 discussing the response and proposed response to the memorandum and the

3 attempt by the Bosnian authorities to seek sovereignty and independence,

4 was there anything left for the gathered representatives to discuss, other

5 than how to prepare to do these things, that is to create new borders, to

6 homogenise the population, and to make the Muslims disappear, as Dr. Vukic

7 had said and as Dr. Karadzic referred to?

8 A. It's a very ugly thing even to hear something like that, that

9 somebody should disappear. I think that the aspiration of the Serb people

10 was to live in Yugoslavia. That was a recognised state of all nations,

11 Muslims, Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins, all of those who lived there. I

12 never heard of any such idea or any such story, that the Serbs should make

13 a border of their own, except that Bosnia and Herzegovina should be within

14 the framework of Yugoslavia. That is why the Serbs asked for the

15 plebiscite, not like the referendum of the Muslims and the Croats to

16 recognise independence. I think that that is the only example of

17 something like this happening through a referendum, so I'm not aware of

18 this, Mr. Prosecutor.

19 Q. By the way, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I also recall that you said during

20 your testimony when you were being questioned by Mr. Stewart that

21 Dr. Karadzic was not at the Assembly session in -- that you described, in

22 December of 1991?

23 A. Yes, that is correct that I said that. I don't remember that he

24 was there, but then you say he was there. I don't remember though.

25 Q. Well, in fact Dr. Karadzic spoke four times at some length from

Page 19278

1 pages 19 to 21, from pages 37 to 42, again at page 48 and 49 of an English

2 transcription of the session which was a total of 50 pages.

3 Let me ask you some more questions, if I may, about what you've

4 told us about that session. First of all, you said that the Assembly

5 meeting you attended on December 19th, 20th, or 21st, which I think you

6 identified today as being on the 20th, went from around 10.00 onwards.

7 That's at page 37 of the LiveNote. I'm actually quoting: "From around

8 10.00 onwards."

9 Is that right?

10 A. I think that's right. I think that's what I said. It's been 13

11 years. Allow for the possibility that I may not remember some things.

12 Q. And you said that it: "Took place in the so-called blue hall of

13 the municipality building." Correct?

14 A. The Assembly, yes. I think that is what it was called because the

15 chairs were blue, that the general decor was in blue hues, so I think

16 that's the name of the room, yes.

17 Q. In fact, Mrs. Hrvacanin, the records of the Assembly session held

18 on December 21st, 1991, reflect that it did not begin at 10.00 but it

19 began at shortly after noon, at about 12.16, and then continued on into

20 the afternoon. And the records further reveal that it was not held in the

21 blue hall or blue room, but in the Holiday Inn hotel. And the record

22 further indicates, Mrs. Hrvacanin, that anthems and coats of arms or

23 emblems were neither on the agenda of the meeting 21 December nor

24 discussed. You're welcome to see the records of that, but if you accept

25 that, we can move forward.

Page 19279

1 A. I have no reason not to believe you, but I don't know of Assembly

2 meetings being held at all at the Holiday Inn.

3 Q. Well, in fact, Mrs. Hrvacanin there was an Assembly meeting that

4 was held at the Holiday Inn, at least one that I'm about to describe --

5 oh, I'm sorry, pardon me. Let me rephrase that.

6 I actually want to turn your attention to a meeting at which,

7 contrary to the meeting of 21 December, anthems and coats of arms were in

8 fact discussed, as you described, and at which you spoke about anthems and

9 coats of arms. And further --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- which began around 10.00, as you describe about the meeting,

12 and which was held in the blue hall, as you described. But,

13 Mrs. Hrvacanin, that was not the meeting of 21 December, not the Assembly

14 session of 21 December, 1991; that was the Assembly session held on 15

15 February 1992, the seventh session of the Assembly.

16 So, Mrs. Hrvacanin, in light of all that, do you agree that the

17 meeting -- the Assembly session you were talking about was not held in

18 December, December 20th or December 21st, as the record in fact indicates,

19 but was held in mid-February 1992?

20 A. Yes. Now that you've said it in this hall, in this room, yes.

21 Q. And any spontaneous meeting that took place after the session that

22 you've described at which no documents were distributed would have taken

23 place in the afternoon of February 15th, 1992? That follows logically, I

24 take it?

25 A. I don't remember.

Page 19280

1 Q. As long as we're on the subject of Assembly sessions, perhaps this

2 is a good opportunity to ask you a few questions about the Assembly

3 session on the 12th of May, 1992, in Banja Luka. That's the session that

4 you were asked about earlier this afternoon. And I think you told the

5 Court that what you remembered about that particular Assembly session was

6 that Dr. Karadzic became a member of the Presidency?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And Mr. Stewart asked you a few questions about the six strategic

9 objectives or goals, and you said that although there was -- essentially,

10 although there was talk about it in the media, that you didn't know

11 anything about it and had never heard anything directly about the six

12 strategic objectives or goals?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then he subsequently asked some questions about goals

15 discussed at the Assembly session of 12 May 1992, and again you said the

16 only thing that happened was the election of Dr. Karadzic. And you

17 said: "There were no other goals mentioned, as far as I know."

18 A. I attended those sessions, but I wasn't there all the time. I

19 would sometimes leave the room. However, this doesn't justify me not

20 knowing what happened at those sessions. Still, I can tell you what I

21 really remember and what I told you is the truth. And if I don't remember

22 something, then obviously I can't talk about it.

23 Q. So are you now saying that you're not sure what was discussed at

24 that session or that you're sure that nothing significant, other than

25 Dr. Karadzic's becoming a member of the Presidency, happened at that

Page 19281

1 session and particularly no discussion of strategic goals?

2 A. What you said is certain. Mr. Karadzic was appointed president.

3 First he became a member of the Presidency and then president. This was

4 very important because he was also the leader of the party. As for the

5 strategic goals, I don't know anything about those. If this -- whether

6 this was important, whether this was at all discussed, I don't know. And

7 I'm telling you the truth.

8 Q. Well, as you pointed out, it certainly happens that people step

9 away from a meeting for a short time for a bathroom break or for a cup of

10 coffee, and I guess everyone understands that. But at this particular

11 meeting, Mrs. Hrvacanin, the strategic goals were discussed or mentioned,

12 I believe, a total of ten times. And let me describe those quickly for

13 you. First of all, Dr. Karadzic described the six strategic objectives.

14 That's found at pages 13 and 14 of the English translation.

15 Then Mr. Kerovic at page 17 said: "I would only like to add in

16 relation to the strategic goals presented by Dr. Karadzic," and then

17 continued.

18 Then Mr. Milosevic referred to the second strategic goal and

19 discussed the work that should be done on that, page 18.

20 And then Mr. Djuric began by says: "Mr. President, fellow

21 deputies, I would like to say a word on these strategic goals."

22 Then Mr. Vjestica said: "I would like to accept all the goals

23 that have been proposed."

24 Then Mr. Novakovic said --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I ask you also, if you have it available,

Page 19282

1 the pages so that the Judges can form an opinion whether it was ten times

2 referred to in five or ten pages, or more spread over the whole meeting.

3 MR. TIEGER: Of course. I don't know where I left off. Mr. --

4 JUDGE ORIE: You stopped with Mr. Djuric. That's the first time

5 when you didn't give a page.

6 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Djuric at page 20, Mr. Vjestica at page 24, then

7 Mr. Novakovic at page 25 and 26 discussed the work that had been done with

8 maps he said: "Not because the Serbs like to draw maps, although it is

9 true that they do, but because our strategic goals, or rather concrete

10 tasks for all the deputies here and all the people's tribunes, military

11 leaders and others on the ground should be derived from such an

12 explanation."

13 Then Mr. Ostojic at page 31 said -- it was an appeal to start

14 working and said: "The third thing as far as realisation of strategic

15 goals is concerned." And then he talked about a further development of

16 the goals and variations on the goals and sub-goals. Mr. Mijatovic at

17 pages 35 through 36 said: "I would like to say the following concerning

18 the realisation of all the six strategic goals that are the duty for all

19 of us of the Serbian republic."

20 Then General Mladic at page 36 said: "To achieve a goal, you need

21 forces. I have read and mulled over for a long time and discussed within

22 the most select circle of comrades who we convened the strategic goals

23 that are of substance."

24 Then Mr. Krajisnik at page 49 said: "Strategic goals, please, I

25 would like to offer an explanation." And he began discussing the corridor

Page 19283

1 mentioned between Krajina and Semberija. "The size of the corridor

2 depends on you," he said. And then he continued as he went on: "As for

3 the goals, I would just like to offer an explanation since I have also

4 taken part in adopting these goals."

5 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, in light of all that, can we accept that your

6 failure to recall any reference to the strategic goals at that session is

7 not a function of stepping out briefly for a cup of coffee or to the

8 bathroom, but for some other reason such as a failure of memory or

9 blocking it out or whatever reason you may offer?

10 A. The reason must be that I have suppressed a lot of things that

11 happened to me in Zenica and later on. I don't know if the strategic goal

12 was to separate the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina or the people in it

13 from the Serbs. At least this is what I learned from the media. The

14 corridor had not existed. You could see in my CV that I was born in

15 Belgrade. I couldn't go to Belgrade because there was no corridor.

16 Whether this corridor could have been created in one way or another, I

17 can't tell you because I'm not an expert. But I know for a fact that

18 General Mladic attended that session and all the gentlemen that you have

19 mentioned here.

20 Q. Well --

21 A. But I didn't find that important, and that is why I didn't pay too

22 much attention, I didn't listen carefully.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, could we ask the witness to explain the

24 first line of her previous answer.

25 You said: "The reason must be" - when you were asked about your

Page 19284

1 failure of memory - "that I have suppressed a lot of things that happened

2 to me in Zenica and later on."

3 That's not entirely clear to the Chamber. Could you explain that.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I experienced a lot of trauma in

5 Zenica and later on as well. I underwent treatment. I had nocturnal

6 urination and various kinds of stresses, and that's why I'm saying that I

7 don't want to remember some things. I was 45 at the time - now I'm 60 -

8 and I still suffer consequences. Nothing else that I can add to that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: If you say "I underwent treatment," could you tell us

10 something about the type of treatment. Could be -- and if you would feel

11 uncomfortable in telling these private matters, very private matters, in

12 open session, then we could consider, if you would ask us to do so, to go

13 into private session for a moment and to hear from you. It could be -- I

14 mean medical treatment, could be by someone -- there are a lot of

15 disciplines in medicine. So I'm not inviting you, but if you prefer to do

16 that please let us know. And could you please answer my question on what

17 type of treatment you underwent?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We don't need to go into private

19 session for this. I still depend on drugs. I suffer from cardiac and

20 vascular diseases. I suffer from hypertension. I also have angina

21 pectoris. I have chronical pancreas disease. Those are the illnesses

22 that are aggravated by certain situations. I still take a lot of

23 medicines. I am under a constant medical supervision, and the illness

24 that I suffer from is progressing. And it got worse -- it got worse

25 during the period when I was stressed out in Zenica.

Page 19285

1 JUDGE ORIE: You mentioned quite some medical problems. Did the

2 treatment -- because at the very end you say: "The illness I suffer from

3 is progressing." You mentioned quite a number of illnesses. Were you

4 treated by -- or did you consult psychiatrists and psychologists as well

5 in this respect?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there's no need for that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, I just wanted to be sure. And do you take

8 any tranquillisers or psychopharmica?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.


12 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, I noticed in your answer that you said: "I don't

13 know whether -- I don't know if the strategic goal was to separate the

14 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina or the people in it from the Serbs."

15 Your 65 ter summary indicates that you were friendly with and

16 spoke frequently, among other people, Vojo Kupresanin. Do I understand

17 that correctly?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you knew Mr. Kupresanin to be someone who was a regional

20 leader and had the opportunity to interact on a reasonably regular basis

21 with republic-level leaders. Is that basically correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Did you have any doubt that Mr. Kupresanin was someone who

24 understood the strategic goals?

25 A. I'm not sure about that.

Page 19286

1 Q. He would have been somebody you would have expected to be aware of

2 them and understand them, however; isn't he?

3 A. Mr. Kupresanin is a high school graduate. He is a teacher by

4 profession.

5 Q. But it's not very difficult, I think, to understand the difference

6 between separating a country and separating the people in the country from

7 the other people in the country; right? That's pretty fundamental. You

8 don't need to go to college to understand the difference, do you?

9 A. Well, yes, but this is a very lofty question that you ask me. If

10 the desire was for us to live in Yugoslavia, then I really don't know who

11 we were supposed to separate from. We wanted the Muslims and the Croats

12 to continue living with us in Yugoslavia, like they still do today. In

13 Belgrade there's about 200.000 Muslims, and I believe that they have a

14 good life there.

15 Q. Well, with respect, Mrs. Hrvacanin, it's not a very lofty question

16 at all. I'm afraid it's a very dirty and gritty question, the issue of

17 separating people. You had a chance to hear the references made at the 21

18 December 1991 Assembly session, references which I think you indicated to

19 us were among those you tried to express. Those were references to the

20 impossibility of living together and a reference to the need to separate

21 as much as possible and a reference to population homogenisation. I want

22 you to keep those in mind as I read to you something that your friend,

23 Vojo Kupresanin, said at the 37th session of the Bosnian Assembly on

24 January 10, 1994, when you consider whether the strategic goal was to

25 separate the country or to separate the people -- separate the people in

Page 19287

1 the country from the Serbs.

2 Mr. Kupresanin said: "What I would really like to see here is a

3 firm attitude that the Muslims and the Croats will not be allowed to

4 return to the areas under our rule. Accordingly, we should not return to

5 the areas that will be under Croatian rule. I think we should be decisive

6 about this."

7 Then he goes on during that quote: "I do not care if the Muslims

8 will live at all, where they will live, whether they will have a country

9 or not, I'm not interested in that. The only thing I am interested in is

10 my people and the territory where my people live. Therefore, any thought

11 about having 500 or more Muslims within our future country is out of the

12 question."

13 Now, I'm going to indicate to you there are many other Assembly

14 session references to either separation, to expulsions, to killings. But

15 in light of what you've already heard in Court today, including what

16 you've heard Vojo Kupresanin saying, is there any doubt, Mrs. Hrvacanin,

17 that the strategic goal was about separating the Muslims and Croat people,

18 separating people, from the Serbs, not dividing the country in the

19 abstract?

20 A. The way I feel it, I agree with you that this is really dirty.

21 But such an idea never crossed my mind. I would never separate anybody,

22 200.000 or 250.000 Serbs were expelled from Central Bosnia and they

23 currently reside on different continents in various countries. I was also

24 expelled. I really wouldn't know how I could wish for somebody to be

25 expelled or for me to expel somebody. Maybe I can't be a good judge of

Page 19288

1 Mr. Kupresanin's words, but nobody with a healthy mind can accept that.

2 Q. Well, even before the conflict began there were people who were

3 suggesting population transfers and population exchanges, weren't there?

4 For example, this Court has received evidence that Dr. Koljevic went to

5 see Mr. Tudjman and spoke about a homogenisation and population transfers

6 and resettlement of peoples.

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that -- what -- just -- question --

8 what is the question there? The first sentence was a question. Then

9 there was an example. What exactly is the witness being invited to

10 answer?

11 MR. TIEGER: "Even before the conflict began, there were people

12 suggesting population transfers and population exchanges."

13 Q. Isn't that right?

14 A. I don't know. I don't know that. I was not a member of the BH

15 Presidency. I never had an occasion to talk to President Tudjman. I only

16 saw him on TV.

17 Q. Well, perhaps that was a -- not a helpful example. I certainly

18 wasn't -- I didn't mean for you to limit your response to Dr. Koljevic's

19 discussion with Mr. Tudjman. More generally I wanted to know if you were

20 aware that there were people - and specifically there were Bosnian Serbs -

21 who were suggesting population transfers. Muslims leave Serb areas, Serbs

22 leave Muslim areas.

23 A. I was never aware of anybody doing a thing like that or that

24 anybody was capable of doing something like that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: May I take the opportunity -- the question was not

Page 19289

1 whether people did it, but the question was that people suggested this,

2 even before the conflict began, to suggest such population transfers, not

3 that they did put them into effect. Did you ever hear about that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We never discussed it at the Main

5 Board.

6 JUDGE ORIE: My question was not whether you discussed it at the

7 Main Board. My question was whether you heard about it.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


11 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, I want to direct your attention and the Court's

12 attention to document found at tab 3 of the materials and which will be

13 presented to you shortly. That's an article from Glas dated 19 January,

14 1992. I think you're familiar with this in particular, Mrs. Hrvacanin,

15 because yesterday you mentioned articles that were published that you

16 considered mocked and ridiculed you and that, in part, precipitated your

17 departure from Zenica. And this article in Glas, in part, refers to that.

18 You recall this article?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, as I understand the article, Glas gave you an opportunity to

21 respond to the two articles that had been published in Nasa Rijec earlier

22 in the year. And among others, you mentioned that Nasa Rijec and Radio

23 Zenica were joint-stock companies and it clearly showed who was in

24 possession of the stock, and presumably therefore the motivation for

25 publishing the articles about you. Is that basically right? That it gave

Page 19290

1 you to chance to talk about what those publications were about and to

2 respond to the points that they had made against you?

3 A. Lliljana Labovic is a journalist affiliated with Nasa -- I

4 apologise, Glas Srpski from Banja Luka. She stayed in Zenica, and she was

5 a theatre critic. She wrote an article about me.

6 Q. And in part the article was intended to give you an opportunity to

7 respond publicly to the mocking articles that had been published earlier

8 by Nasa Rijec?

9 A. This was not published in Zenica; this was published in Banja

10 Luka. And the journalist who was from Banja Luka, she came to Zenica.

11 She attempted to make an interview with me. And if the Court will allow

12 me, I will have to read to see what the article is about, and if you, sir,

13 also allow me to read it.

14 Q. Of course I will give you that opportunity. I just wanted to

15 establish that you remember the article, you remember talking Ljiljana

16 Labovic, and you remember generally what was happening at the time.

17 A. I remember that I talked to her. I'm still in contact with her.

18 She's the director of a gallery now.

19 Q. Why don't you take a --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger, the witness asked for some time to

21 read it. I don't know whether you could move on so that during the next

22 break we give an opportunity to Mrs. Hrvacanin to read it or whether you

23 have any follow-up questions that we should give her time now.

24 MR. TIEGER: Well, first of all, I probably should have the --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I -- I didn't want to interrupt the

Page 19291

1 answer of the witness. Mr. Registrar, that would be?

2 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 3 would be P1017 and the English translation

3 would be P1017.1.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I leave it up to you, Mr. Tieger, to see

5 whether you would give ample opportunity to the witness during the break.

6 MR. TIEGER: I'm happy to give that a try, Your Honour, and if I

7 get to a point where it seems too awkward to continue, we're not that far

8 from the break and we can make a break then.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay.


11 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, I know you're trying to use your time well by

12 reading the article, but the Court wants to give you an opportunity to do

13 that with less haste, and so we'll try and direct our attention next to

14 that article after the break and after you've had a chance to see it.

15 A. Thank you.

16 Q. You were asked yesterday whether you or other members of the SDS

17 in Zenica ever established a Serbian Assembly, and you indicated that the

18 answer was no.

19 A. I don't know about that, and that is what I still assert, that I

20 was not aware of a Serb Assembly being founded in Zenica. When I left

21 Zenica on the 28th of February, 1992, while the telephones were still

22 operating, I was still in contact with Mr. Glogovac, who was my deputy.

23 As far as I know, no such thing was established while I was in contact

24 with him.

25 Q. I take it you would agree that if Serbs from Zenica were going to

Page 19292

1 move as a result of the ethnic division of Bosnia, there wouldn't be much

2 point in establishing a Serbian Assembly in Zenica?

3 A. What you're saying is correct, but the Serbs did not intend to

4 leave. They were arrested. They were taken to camps and expelled. So I

5 can't say that they wanted to leave Zenica. I didn't want to leave

6 either. My husband didn't want to leave either. I said that yesterday.

7 To this day, he doesn't have a pension. He simply cannot get one in

8 Zenica.

9 Q. Well, in posing that question to you, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I was

10 essentially repeating a question that you yourself had raised at the

11 Assembly session on December 11th, early December, the third session of

12 the Bosnian Serb Assembly in 1991 when there was a discussion about the

13 possibility of creating Serbian Assemblies or Municipal Assemblies of the

14 Serbian people.

15 You took the floor and mentioned that you live in a region of

16 Central Bosnia where the Serbs are in a minority and asked: "What I want

17 to say is that I would like to know how much we would win or lose by

18 establishing such a Serb Assembly. For, it is true that we are being

19 outvoted."

20 Then you said: "If we are to move, then all this discussion is

21 pointless. But if we will remain living there, I would like to suggest

22 that a commission draw up an appropriate model of action for Central

23 Bosnia showing the pros and cons."

24 So at least as of December 11th, Mrs. Hrvacanin, you were aware

25 that the model for the division of -- or at least the Bosnian Serb model

Page 19293

1 for the division of Bosnia and Herzegovina might include having Serbs move

2 from Zenica?

3 A. It is correct that that's what I said at the Assembly. It is also

4 correct that it was the 11th of November [as interpreted], and by then I

5 had been mistreated a great deal and I was frightened. It's not that we

6 were planning some kind of organised departure from Zenica. People were

7 leaving the way they were leaving, through Croatian territory, when the

8 conflict started, and when it was possible to go that way. As far as I

9 can remember, the recommendation was to establish an Assembly, like a

10 parliamentary Assembly, with certain laws, of course, and some people who

11 would live there and work there without singling anyone out, Muslims,

12 Croats, or anybody else, especially not in Zenica. I've already said, I

13 said yesterday, that many different ethnic groups lived in Zenica,

14 Germans, Czechs, Poles, Jews.

15 Q. Well, my question, however, Mrs. Hrvacanin was focussed on the

16 comments you made on December 11th and the -- and your understanding of

17 the Bosnian Serb objectives at that time regarding the division of Bosnia

18 and Herzegovina. You testified yesterday about Mr. -- about

19 Dr. Karadzic's, let's say, lack of enthusiasm about establishing an SDS in

20 Zenica when you first met him in 1990.

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. The fact is that when the Bosnian Serb leadership identified

23 portions of Bosnia and Herzegovina that would not be claimed by the

24 Bosnian Serbs but would be essentially ceded to the Muslims, Zenica was

25 one of those places?

Page 19294

1 A. In Zenica the Muslim population is the majority population, and

2 throughout that territory at that -- but I'm not aware of any such

3 division, that someone would give anything to someone else.

4 Q. On October 12th, 1991, Dr. Karadzic had a telephone conversation

5 with a gentleman named Gojko Djogo. And this Court has it in evidence,

6 P64, P67 intercept, tab 16, also P153A. And Dr. Karadzic said, among

7 other things: Yes, to ... to ... to Ozren, that Doboj, to do anything.

8 He can -- he can have the power in half of Sarajevo, Zenica and half of

9 Tuzla, and that's it. Over. Gracanica and these little -- but he is --

10 they do not understand that there would be bloodshed and that the Muslim

11 people would be exterminated. The deprived Muslims who do not know where

12 he is leading, to what he is leading the Muslims would disappear.

13 Now, first of all, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I think is it clear from even

14 that limited excerpt that the "he" to who Dr. Karadzic is referring is

15 Alija Izetbegovic? "He can have this and he is leading the Muslims," and

16 so on?

17 A. I'm sorry. I did not quite understand. You were reading a text

18 and you said that Karadzic was saying all of that to some general called

19 Djogo? I've never heard of such a general, but of course it is possible

20 that I don't have to know about that. But the question is whether

21 Karadzic is saying all of that to Izetbegovic or have I misunderstood?

22 Q. I apologise for that. It wasn't a good -- in this conversation at

23 this point of the conversation, except for purposes of this discussion

24 that when Dr. Karadzic refers to "he" he's referring to Alija Izetbegovic.

25 And he says --

Page 19295

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, before you continue, let's first identify

2 another matter of concern. You said "a general," but Mr. Tieger said, in

3 English "a gentleman" named Gojko Djogo. So he's not a general, he's a

4 male person.

5 Yes, please proceed, Mr. --


7 Q. And I believe that --

8 A. I'm sorry. It was a slip of the tongue.

9 Q. And if it's of any assistance, I believe Mr. Djogo was the head of

10 the society for Bosnian Serbs outside of Bosnia or something of that

11 nature. In any event, with the clarifications that have just been

12 provided, let me just repeat the part of the conversation that I wanted to

13 direct your attention to.

14 "He can have the power in half of Sarajevo, Zenica, in half of

15 Tuzla, and that's it."

16 Now, I'm going to read you a few more references to Zenica in

17 connection with the division of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The next one is

18 found in P67, intercept tab 31 and also P92. That's a conversation

19 between Mico Stanisic and Bruno Stojic. Mico Stanisic being the first

20 minister of the interior in Republika Srpska. Bruno Stojic being a former

21 colleague from the joint movement of Bosnia and Herzegovina --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I take it we find this under tab 34, as

23 we found the previously one under 33.

24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, I apologise for not directing the

25 Court's attention specifically to it.

Page 19296

1 Q. Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Stojic were talking about making a deal. And

2 Stanisic said: "Listen" -- "listen, Karadzic, too, wants a deal. Sit

3 down and work out a deal."

4 And then to continue the conversation Stanisic says: "We'll give

5 you all this that is here, Visoko, Vares, Kakanj."

6 And Stojic says: "Who are you to give us anything?"

7 And Stanisic says: "We'll give you also Zenica."

8 And Stojic says: "Let me tell you, man."

9 And Mico -- and then Stanisic says: "We'll give you Zenica, too,

10 fuck."

11 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour, I wonder, could ask a

12 practical technical question to which there may be a simple answer.

13 The -- is the position that the interpreters have the B/C/S transcript so

14 that when Mr. Tieger reads out in English, they just the read what we

15 already have as the transcript of the original tape? Because otherwise --

16 well, I'll stop there. If the answer to that is "yes," then I don't need

17 to say anything else.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, have the interpreters been provided with

19 the bundles?

20 MR. TIEGER: Yes, they have, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: And I then take it that the interpreters will use the

22 original. And if that's not correct, then I'd like to be informed. I'm

23 on the English channel at this moment.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters from the other booths say that

25 they do not have exact references. They have big bundles of material, but

Page 19297

1 they do not have exact references to the passages that are being read out.

2 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour --

3 JUDGE ORIE: That's another reason, Mr. Tieger, to give us the

4 references. I think at this moment we are on tab 34, but I have not yet

5 identified exactly the page where we are. I noticed that where this

6 conversation is identified on the first page as a conversation between

7 Stanisic and Stojic, that it starts at least with other persons but slowly

8 gets into the Stanisic/Stojic.

9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour has the point. Because if Mr. Tieger

10 could -- as he's agreed to do, if Mr. Tieger could give us the tab number

11 in this bundle, and also the reference, it makes much more sense for the

12 interpreters to read from the original because otherwise the witness is

13 getting back a new translation having gone from B/C/S to English and back

14 to B/C/S, which makes no sense at all.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Every new element in the chain is another risk

16 for imposition.

17 MR. STEWART: It's far more satisfactory from the witness is given

18 the precise words that the people concerned were using.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, could you draw the attention of the

20 interpreters to the page, I see there are only ERN numbers at the top, the

21 page where we find the portion you just quoted.

22 MR. TIEGER: First of all, I'll identify the English for the

23 Court. In the English that's found at pages 14 and 15.


25 MR. TIEGER: So it's -- which makes it a little over halfway

Page 19298

1 through. And --

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I ask, is there a further copy of

3 this bundle because it would be extremely helpful, indeed, if my case

4 manager were able to have his own bundle, otherwise it's very

5 unmanageable.

6 JUDGE ORIE: It looks as if someone is trying to find a new bundle

7 for you. There's another copy.

8 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger, I think that you were at page --

10 last four digits 0121 where Zenica and then Banovina and -- I'm not quite

11 sure as a matter of fact. It might not be because I'm missing the

12 reference to 1939, unless that's written out rather than given in --

13 MR. TIEGER: It seems unlikely, actually, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm afraid that I made a mistake. No, I think

15 it should be -- at the middle of that page we find a reference to Visoko,

16 Vares, and Kakanj, which we find at the top of page 15, two further down

17 Zenica is mentioned. Two further down Zenica is mentioned again. And

18 then we come to the Banovina, which is the next. So I --

19 MR. TIEGER: I found it as well. You're quite right.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's at page 0121 for the interpreters.

21 Could you please read it again, Mr. Tieger, so that the witness,

22 who might have forgotten meanwhile, was asked to --

23 MR. TIEGER: Certainly, Your Honour.

24 Q. I'll begin with Mr. Stanisic who said: "Listen. Karadzic, too,

25 wants a deal to sit down and work out a deal."

Page 19299

1 Then about ten lines later or so Mr. Stanisic says: "We'll give

2 you all this that is here: Visoko, Vares, Kakanj."

3 Mr. Stojic says: "Who are you to give us anything?"

4 Mr. Stanisic: "We'll give you also Zenica."

5 Mr. Stojic: "Let me tell you, man" --

6 And Mr. Stanisic says: "We'll give you Zenica, too, fuck."

7 Finally I wanted to direct your attention, ma'am, to a portion of

8 the 16th Assembly that we discussed earlier. In fact, I had listed for

9 you the persons who referred to the strategic objectives. This is

10 Mr. Krajisnik again, and he says, and I believe the -- so as not to suffer

11 from the same problem, I'll need to refer to the tab which is --

12 MR. TIEGER: There are a separate bundle of meetings, and it's the

13 most obviously thick one.

14 MR. STEWART: Can I just inquire, honour, if it's -- I try not to

15 be overly fussy about this. Is Mr. Tieger -- is Mr. Tieger reading from

16 exactly the same document because there seems to be a "fuck" in the wrong

17 place.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was at the end of the line, where in the

19 translation, Mr. Tieger, I noticed that as well, where the English

20 say: "We'll give you fucking Zenica, too." You said, and I'm now

21 repeating just from memory. "We'll give you Zenica, too, fuck."

22 I don't know whether you're using a different version.

23 MR. TIEGER: Well, I --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Something perhaps --

25 MR. TIEGER: -- the ERN --

Page 19300

1 JUDGE ORIE: The last four digits is 0133.

2 MR. TIEGER: No, no, the --

3 JUDGE ORIE: The English translation.

4 MR. TIEGER: The ERN is precisely the same. So I am not --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Well --

6 MR. TIEGER: -- exactly sure how that discrepancy occurred.

7 JUDGE ORIE: It might be that there was a bit more emphasis on

8 swearing today, as usually we do not pay that much attention to it.

9 Perhaps something to -- well, yes, could you finish your question now and

10 then after that we should have a break.


12 Q. The last reference I wanted to bring your attention to was

13 Mr. Krajisnik at the 16th Assembly where he said: "Therefore, if we want

14 to have a partition, Tuzla cannot end up as ours, although I do agree that

15 one part of Tuzla could. I agree that we can keep Tuzla, but then there

16 will be to partition. We cannot get Zenica."

17 So because we have to break I'm going to --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps, Mr. Tieger, we have in this big bundle,

19 although the different elements are numbered, the numbering does not

20 appear on the cover page. So we have to go through it very quickly. I

21 think, as a matter of fact, it is, from what I see now, under number --

22 after number 12 but without any number, one of the thick ones, and before

23 what is indicated as number 19.

24 But perhaps you'll sort that out a bit during the next break.

25 Mrs. Hrvacanin -- perhaps in order also for the interpreters to

Page 19301

1 follow. Perhaps you should re-start this portion after the break --

2 MR. TIEGER: That's fine.

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- having identified clearly what you wanted to draw

4 attention to.

5 Mrs. Hrvacanin, a copy will be given to you of the interview, or

6 at least of the publication where you said you had spoken with this

7 journalist so that you can read it over the break and Mr. Tieger can put

8 any additional questions to you in respect of that publication.

9 We will have a break until 10 minutes past 6.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Tieger.

17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

21 MR. TIEGER: I think before we adjourned we wanted to repeat the

22 comment made by Mr. Krajisnik of the 16th session relevant to the issue

23 we're discussing now, but have the B/C/S transcript available to the

24 interpreters. I've already indicated during the break where that can be

25 found. But for the record --

Page 19302

1 JUDGE ORIE: And for the Judges.

2 MR. TIEGER: Of course. I think that was at the top of page 38 of

3 the B/C/S transcript, which is ERN 00847753. I hope I have that right and

4 I will read it slowly in the English.

5 Q. Again, that was regarding the --

6 JUDGE ORIE: In the English - because when I was referring to the

7 Judges, I had the English in mind - is on page --

8 MR. TIEGER: 49 or 50, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll find it.


11 Q. And again that comment related to position of Zenica in the -- a

12 division of -- the ethnic division of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

13 comment was -- it appears after the comment about liking Mr. Ostojic's

14 maps most and everything on them is blue. But the comment is

15 this: "Therefore, if we want to have a partition, Tuzla cannot end up as

16 ours, although I do agree that one part of Tuzla could. I agree that we

17 can keep Tuzla, but then there will be no partition. We cannot get

18 Zenica."

19 And, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I directed your attention to those various

20 excerpts regarding Zenica in connection with my question about Zenica's

21 role according to the Bosnian Serb leadership or position, rather,

22 according to the Bosnian Serb leadership in the ethnic division of Bosnia

23 and Herzegovina. And I ask you again whether you understood that, as it

24 seems, you indicated in the December 11, 1991, Assembly that Zenica might

25 likely be ceded to the Muslim authorities and not claimed as a Bosnian

Page 19303

1 Serb territory in the ethnic division of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 A. From what you have said, Mr. Tieger, I understand that. But I

3 don't have any prior views of that, nor am I aware of any previous

4 conversations about that.

5 Q. We've already looked at a number of the comments made at the

6 Assembly session of 21 December 1991, including those referring to the

7 impossibility of living together and the need for as much separation as

8 possible. It's correct, isn't it, that essentially from the very

9 beginning of the SDS, SDS officials were saying, in essence, that life in

10 a sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina outside -- life in

11 Bosnia and Herzegovina outside of Yugoslavia would be tantamount to

12 slavery?

13 A. Yes, outside of Yugoslavia.

14 Q. And in that connection, I'd like to show you a videotape found

15 at --

16 MR. TIEGER: Transcript of which can be found at tab 15. That is

17 already in evidence, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: From your list, it appears to be P826, tab 1.


20 Q. And in the interests of time, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I will indicate to

21 you that at the beginning of the video there is an introduction of persons

22 present at this rally. Among those are Dr. Karadzic and yourself,

23 according to the introduction. And now I want to turn your attention to a

24 portion of the video where we see a speaker, and I want to begin that and

25 then ask you a -- pause it briefly and then ask you a couple of questions.

Page 19304

1 That can be found -- the transcript of that speech is found in tab 15.

2 The video portion, I believe, begins at approximately 0.15.40. This is

3 the beginning of the video, and we should move ahead to approximately

4 0.15.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... the special genocide of the

7 Serbian people. The Serbian people of this country."

8 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, if I could pause.

9 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, do you recognise the speaker?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if you can just tell the Court who that is.

12 A. The little that I heard should be my voice, but I have not seen

13 the image and I don't know what this rally was.

14 Q. And we'll play it all the way through now.

15 [Videotape played]

16 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... of existence encircled human

17 Yugoslavia. As great Serbian poet Cosic said, 'Can I be proud of so many

18 deaths?' The flower of youth has been thrown away, dressed in uniforms

19 and sent to the Srijem front. We lost our lives and we brought freedom to

20 many but now in peacetime we remained without freedom and without a state.

21 We left our bones all over Yugoslavia. The price that the Serbian people

22 paid in blood has been re-made by some from Brioni in ink [as

23 interpreted]. The students who did not complete their studies, Tito's

24 followers and machinists were tearing apart our Mother Serbia. The

25 Broz-Kardelj tyranny has destroyed the brightest sons of the Serbian

Page 19305

1 people. But the Serbian people, I'm talking to you, they didn't have in

2 mind that great nations have deep roots and have something to return to.

3 Don't give up your homes! Let's not give up Kosovo! Don't let them

4 divide us and count us repeatedly! Don't let us fight among ourselves!

5 Serbian people, the time has come when faithless and true devoted will be

6 revealed! Serbian people cannot be manipulated any longer. We are angry

7 at Mr. Ante Markovic because he came to the Serbian wounds on Mount Kozara

8 to form his party. Why didn't he go to the north of the state to form his

9 party; we would have welcomed that. Mr. Ante Markovic keeps promising us

10 that he will take us to Europe. And I am saying that he would take us

11 there hungry and jobless to sell us as servants and cheap labour. Our

12 message to Mr. Ante Markovic is that the Serbs were in Europe in the 13th

13 century while cows were grazing on Champs d'Elysee, golden cutlery was

14 used at the court of Tsar Dusan. Europe will be here. We have ... there

15 are finest minds among the Serbian people ... what Racan did to the Serbs

16 communists, he extradited them to Tudjman so NDH-ism and Ustasha regime

17 rule in Croatia. We're clear when it comes to Brankovics because the

18 Serbian people has had their Brankovics since Kosovo. We're clear and...

19 that he doesn't prepare something perfidious for the Serbian people as

20 communists did to him a year ago when every Serb wanted to follow him.

21 Therefore, Serbs, do not vote for what communists imposed on us. We can

22 never forgive brothers killing each other. They are still dividing us but

23 they will not do it any longer! I say that right now we are divided into

24 the Serbs who do not see the coming danger and ... the town of Jasenovac,

25 to which they didn't allow us to peacefully pay reverence because alive

Page 19306

1 Serbs are not welcomed there. Serbian people had enough of Jasenovac,

2 Kadinjaca, Jadovno, Banjica ... enough of bones and blood ... bad smell

3 for Yugo-Serbian people coming from Broz and Kardelj, and that people went

4 through hell to enable others to live in freedom today. Nobody will ever

5 again decide in the name of the Serbian people ... we don't want slavery

6 and we mean it! The communists say, we are in favour of it, I mean in

7 favour of a federation, if others also want it, but you know very well

8 that they don't. All of them were offering us freedom from their

9 armchairs, were writing our laws, and our leader tirelessly ... because we

10 don't need more lies. We have our leader who offers us to die together

11 with us and to fight together with us for the Serbian people. That's why

12 we must support him and we all must vote for the Serbian Democratic

13 Party ... or where that name came from. But unfortunately, Serbian

14 people, that time is over. We should repently kneel in front of the altar

15 of our Serbian Orthodox Church, which has always welcomed us, even when we

16 turned our backs to it. Last two years Slobodan Milosevic did for the

17 Serbian people what St. Sava did a long time ago. And we know it very

18 well, all those who say negative things about Slobodan, represent a

19 synonym of hatred towards ... our hearts. In our hearts there is a place

20 primarily for our leader Dr. Radovan Karadzic, for Mr. Jovan Raskovic, for

21 Mr. Novak Kilibarda, and all the Serbian people ... and finally, I shall

22 invite you all" --

23 "Today when we are celebrated the 300 anniversary of the movement

24 of the Serbs, we show clearly what kind of people we are. We are

25 celebrating our" --

Page 19307


2 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, that was a video of a pre-election rally on

3 Reljevo on October 27th, 1990, and I take it that you recognise yourself

4 as the speaker whom we just saw?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you referred to the coming danger and said: "We do not want

7 slavery and we mean it," you then referred to: "The communists say we are

8 in favour of it, I mean federation, if others also want it, but it is

9 known that they don't."

10 Is it correct that what you were referring to by "slavery" was the

11 possibility of a non -- of the elimination or cessation of --

12 A. I'm not getting any interpretation. I apologise.

13 Q. No, not at all. I'm glad we're back in communication. When you

14 said "the communists are in favour of federation if others want it, but we

15 know they don't," is it correct that the reference to "federation" is the

16 reference to a federal Yugoslavia with all Serbs in the same state?

17 A. No. I did not have that in mind. I am a great opponent to

18 communism, and you have heard that. During the communist reign, my family

19 was tortured; you've heard that as well. I could never trust communists,

20 but this referred to communists. We were against a state that was called

21 a federal state of Yugoslavia. If parliamentary parties had not won the

22 elections, Mr. Prosecutor, we would still be imprisoned, we would still be

23 tortured, we would still be slaves. And that is the truth, exactly like

24 we were for the entire period of 50 years.

25 Q. And I certainly understand what you've explained to us as your

Page 19308

1 attitude toward communism, and you've also described your view of a

2 federal Yugoslavia. Is it correct then that you were suspicious that the

3 communists could either maintain or were willing to maintain a federal

4 Yugoslavia and wanted to ensure one way or another that federal Yugoslavia

5 was maintained?

6 A. Absolutely.

7 Q. And when you -- and that the alternative to that, as you posed it

8 in the speech, was slavery, as you've described it?

9 A. That is correct. Some people would not even be alive; they would

10 have been killed.

11 Q. And being outside for the Serbs, the Bosnian Serbs, the end of

12 federal Yugoslavia would have meant, as we've discussed in connection with

13 other parts of your testimony, the -- that would have meant that Bosnian

14 Serbs would have been in an independent state of Bosnia where they were

15 potentially a minority and where the Muslims were a majority. Is that

16 right?

17 A. Allow me to say this. On the 27th of October when this rally was

18 held in Reljevo, that was in 1990, the recognition of an independent

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina was still not being mentioned. This was still a

20 federal state with federal laws in effect. I was still an enemy of

21 communism, of the federal state of Yugoslavia, in other words. Only after

22 a certain while this would happen. If the recognition of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina had come earlier and if the political situation had been

24 different earlier on, I'm sure that speeches of this nature would not have

25 taken place. But I will keep repeating that I hate communism, that I hate

Page 19309

1 communists.

2 Q. Well, one way or another, by the time you say that the issue of an

3 independent Bosnia and Herzegovina was clearly at the forefront, you

4 thought of, or at least referred to, Muslims who would represent the

5 plurality group in a sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina as

6 age-long enemies. Do you recall saying that?

7 A. I don't think that I said age-long enemies. But I did used to say

8 that they were collaborators of the enemy during the Second World War, and

9 I mean Croats and Muslims.

10 Q. Okay. I -- well, for the benefit of the Court and the

11 interpreters and yourself, ma'am, I wanted to direct your attention to a

12 very brief portion of the seventh Bosnian Serb Assembly session that we

13 referred to before, held on February 15th, pages 46 and 47 of the English,

14 and page 48 of the -- it begins at SA025415, that's the B/C/S.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Where? In what binder, Mr. Tieger?

16 MR. TIEGER: The collection of Bosnian Serb Assembly sessions

17 appear separately in order of the sessions. So the seventh session should

18 be -- not necessarily the seventh because I don't think all of them are --

19 it's the fifth one.

20 And the portion to which I wanted to direct your attention is

21 found on page 47 of the English. It's, for the benefit of the

22 interpreters, it's after the portion that mentions Mr. Kosutic, so that

23 might be a good point of reference. And it says: "With all due respect

24 to our mother country, we are Serbs, too, and no lesser Serbs than they.

25 It could be that we are even more Serbs than they because we may have

Page 19310

1 acquired a keener sense of Serbdom by living among our age-old enemies."

2 Q. I wanted to draw your attention to that comment, Mrs. Hrvacanin,

3 at that session. As you can --

4 A. Because they said that the anthem should be "Hej Sloveni," "Hey

5 Slavs," and this was the hymn of the communist state. I wanted the anthem

6 to be the Serbian anthem, like during the kingdom of Tomislav, that was

7 Boze Pravde. This is what I meant. I didn't mean anything bad by it.

8 Q. We understood from the earlier part of the questions and the

9 answers that the comment about age-long enemies was made in the context of

10 the points you were making about anthems. But in light of the comments

11 that we have discussed concerning as much separation as possible,

12 possibility of living together, your reference to living among age-long

13 enemies, let me direct your attention back to an issue that we raised

14 earlier in the examination.

15 That was the question of proposals to transfer or exchange

16 populations, to move Muslims to one place and Serbs to another. You said

17 you were unaware of anyone having made such proposals, and in that

18 connection I wanted to direct your attention to the article of January

19 19th in Glas that we identified earlier and that you had a chance to look

20 at over the break.

21 A. Yes, of course I read the article, and there is a disputable word

22 in the article that I never used. And the lady, the journalist, used it

23 in inverted commas. And the word is: "We are trading the" -- what I

24 thought at the time was that this referred to the division of power. When

25 I said yesterday that there were nine representatives and that the Serbs

Page 19311

1 accounted for 30 per cent of the power, then I believe I was clear.

2 Mrs. Buturovic -- no, Mrs. Labovic asked me whether in Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina there were the same percentage of Muslims as there are of

4 Serbs in Zenica, and I said yes. I said the gentleman from Banja Luka who

5 was appointed the chief of police, which was known as MUP at the time, and

6 that our representative Stanimir Jukovic [phoen] was still not appointed.

7 I did not talk about any transfers. I did not think that anybody was

8 supposed to be transferred anywhere. I said the way we fair -- the way we

9 Serbs fare in Zenica should be the same way that Muslims fared in Banja

10 Luka. I said that I wanted to live in Zenica not in Banja Luka.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'd like to have a clarification of the

12 witness on one of the answers she gave. I tried to follow her testimony.

13 You compared in the portion quoted the Serbs from the mother

14 country. And you said: "We are not any less Serbs than they."

15 Isn't it?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was my reply to Mr. Kostunica's

17 words. I just read the article briefly, so I don't know --

18 JUDGE ORIE: I'm now referring to the portion of the -- of the

19 seventh session --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About the anthem?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. "With all due respect to our mother country,"

22 you were referring to Serbia proper. Is that correctly understood?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: You say "we are Serbs and no lesser Serbs than they."

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, and I thought that

Page 19312

1 we should make our own decisions rather than decisions being imposed upon

2 us.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Fine. So you are referring to Serbia and you were

4 comparing the Serbs living in Serbia with you, Serbs, living at the place

5 where you lived. Is that correctly understood?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is correctly understood

7 because I believe that a Serb is a Serb wherever they may be living.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you were asked when you said I -- "it

9 could be that we are even more Serbs," that is compared to the Serbs from

10 Serbia, "than they because we may have acquired a keener sense of Serbdom

11 by living among our age-old enemies."

12 And then you were asked to explain what you meant by that, or at

13 least you explained. And you said that: "The text of the anthem" -- or

14 at least the anthem, the hymn was the hymn of the communist state and you

15 wanted it to be a Serbian anthem. That's what you meant.

16 It looks as if you are saying the enemies were the communists;

17 that's how I understood your answer.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, were the Serbs in Serbia not living together

20 with communists? Because that's where you -- that's what you're

21 comparing. You're comparing Serbs from Serbia with Serbs living -- well,

22 let's say in Bosnia, where you lived, and then you say: "We have a better

23 sense of Serbdom because we lived with our age-old enemies."

24 Now, in your explanation you seem to tell us that it was because

25 you lived with the communists all the time. My question now is: Were the

Page 19313

1 Serbs in Serbian proper not living with the communists?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They lived with the communists.

3 They didn't celebrate religious holidays, they didn't go to church. There

4 was a ban on religion. And they lost a lot of their customs and Serbian

5 traditions, whereas us, Serbs in Bosnia, kept our traditions. We went to

6 church. We got married in church. We celebrated our religious holidays,

7 and we respected and honoured our holidays. That's why I said that we are

8 greater Serbs than the Serbs in Serbia proper.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now you say you were -- let me just find it

10 again. And you said that you even were more Serbs than they because --

11 because: "We may have acquired a keener sense of Serbdom by living among

12 our age-old enemies."

13 If you now explain to us that it was mainly in Serbia proper that

14 the Serbs are living with the communists, then who were the age-old

15 enemies you lived with you referred to and which gave you a "keener sense

16 of Serbdom"? It could not be the communists, or at least then I fully do

17 not understand your later explanation.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For me they were communists. They

19 are my age-old enemies, starting with my father, grandfather, myself, my

20 son, all of our generations.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time you just told me that where

22 you kept your traditions, that it was in Serbia proper, where the Serbs

23 suffered from the communists and not you that much; now you said living

24 with your age-old enemies gave you a keener sense of Serbdom. And you

25 said so in a comparison you made with the Serbs from Serbia. You said "we

Page 19314

1 are not any lesser Serbs. We developed a keener sense of Serbdom."

2 And it's totally incomprehensible for me how you developed a

3 keener sense of Serbdom by living with your age-old enemies, where you at

4 the same time say that it was in Serbia proper that the Serbs were --

5 well, let's say, suffering more or less under the communists more than you

6 did.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We used the Cyrillic script. We had

8 our own alphabet, although in the constitution of the former Republic of

9 Yugoslavia --

10 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking for further explanation on -- I'm,

11 first of all, trying to understand how you -- where you said that you were

12 better in a position to keep your tradition as Serbs, how you developed a

13 keener sense of Serbdom while living with your age-old enemies if they

14 were the communists. Because at the same time you tell us that it was in

15 Serbia proper that the Serbs were under communist dominance.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could not go to church. They

17 could not follow their customs because they would have been imprisoned if

18 they had. I was not a communist, and I could be religious. I could

19 honour my customs, and other people who were not communists could do the

20 same. And they, they could not do that and be communists. This was

21 mutually exclusive. If they wanted to be communists, if they wanted to

22 share power, if they wanted to be seen as ministers, they had to be

23 communists. This was a characteristic that was mandatory at the time. I

24 myself was not one of them.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So they were living with the communists, isn't it?

Page 19315

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. They were communists.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They were communists. You explained that

3 communism made it impossible for them to be real Serbs, to keep to their

4 traditions. And at the same time you say "we," making a comparison

5 between the two, "we developed a keen sense of Serbdom because we," still

6 in this comparison, "we lived with our age-old enemies."

7 So what you say is: We were living with our age-old enemies. You

8 identify these age-old enemies as the communists, and at the same time you

9 explain to us that it was in the other territory, on Serbia proper, that

10 the Serbs were suffering under the communists. So I have difficulties in

11 reconciling these two.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Will you allow me to answer your

13 question, please?


15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was the federal

16 state of Yugoslavia. All the laws were federal laws, and there was

17 communism. There was a regime which was more pronounced in Serbia. It

18 was also pronounced in our midst. We had to fight against the federal and

19 the republican regimes. We had people who worked for UDBA, who were

20 spying on Serbs, the headquarters of all that was in Belgrade. We had

21 local communists on the one hand, and on the other hand we had federal

22 communists.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand this description. It,

24 nevertheless, does not address the issue I raised.

25 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

Page 19316

1 [Trial Chamber confers]


3 Q. Mrs. Hrvacanin, before I return to the issue we were focussing on

4 in connection with this article, I can follow-up on the issue you were

5 just discussing with His Honour. You say in the article at page 3 of the

6 English: "Serbian people are taking a veil off." That's -- and for your

7 benefit, that is the -- about the sixth paragraph from the end.

8 "Serbian people are taking a veil off and I believe that current

9 steps of the SDS in the republic have been profound and far-reaching, and

10 we in Zenica fully support them."

11 Now, I'm correct -- I think that the steps taken by the SDS in the

12 republic as of July -- or January 19th, 1992, were along the lines of

13 those we discussed when looking at the Assembly session of 21 December

14 1992. Isn't that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And those steps, as we saw from the references in the Assembly

17 session, were directed not at the concerns about communists but at the

18 concerns about Muslims and Croats?

19 A. They were also communists. Everybody was communist.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm looking at the clock. How much time

21 would you still need?

22 MR. TIEGER: Well, it's one of those relatively -- I'm not going

23 to take a great deal of additional time. I'm very reluctant, however, to

24 commit myself to such a narrow period of time that we could extend the

25 interpreters.

Page 19317

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, may I take it that there's some need to

2 re-examine the witness, Mr. Stewart?

3 MR. STEWART: I don't know yet, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. But while you might have some questions

5 already or if you say, well, this should come up --

6 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, if it's helpful, it -- I

7 wouldn't -- as things stand at the moment, I certainly wouldn't have any

8 extensive re-examination.

9 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. But if it would be -- if Mr. Tieger would

10 need another ten minutes, if you would need another ten minutes, then that

11 would be 20 minutes past 7.00. That's too long. Judges might have some

12 other questions as well.

13 MR. STEWART: From what Mr. Tieger has already said, Your Honour,

14 it doesn't appear that continuing this evening is a suitable course.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Hrvacanin, we will not -- it will not be

17 possible for us to finish your testimony today. Since we are not sitting

18 tomorrow, I'd like you to come back next Thursday at a quarter past 2.00

19 in this same courtroom. And I'll now not forget to instruct you not to

20 speak with anyone about the testimony you have given and the testimony

21 still to be given. And I hope that the health situation of your husband

22 will be fine.

23 Then we will adjourn until next Tuesday, quarter past 2.00 --

24 Thursday, quarter past 2.00.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

Page 19318

1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of

2 December, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.