Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19319

 1                          Thursday, 8 December 2005

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6            Mr. Registrar, would you call the case.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is Case Number

 8    IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.  Thank you.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10            I was informed that there is a change in the scheduling of

11    witnesses.  Mr. Stewart.

12            MR. STEWART:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's this, Your Honour, that

13    the -- the next witness -- so we expect that Mrs. Hrvacanin is not going

14    to take all that long this afternoon.  The next witness was to be

15    Mr. Sakolovic.   I say the name because there is no question of protective

16    measures.  But, Your Honour, it has been decided and very recently, which

17    is why I informed the Prosecution just before Your Honours came into court

18    and am now formally informing Your Honours now that Mr. Sakolovic will not

19    be called by the Defence.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that information.

21            Your witness scheduled for next Monday, I can't message that it

22    would be difficult to ...

23            MR. STEWART:  I beg your pardon, Your Honour?

24            JUDGE ORIE:  The next witness --

25            MR. STEWART:  Yes.

Page 19320

 1            JUDGE ORIE: -- was scheduled for --

 2            MR. STEWART:  For Monday, Your Honour.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  And I take it that it will be difficult for you to

 4    get him any earlier here.

 5            MR. STEWART:  It's not practical to accelerate, really, from

 6    anyone's point of view, Your Honour.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber does not insist on giving any effort to

 8    do that.

 9            Yes, Mr. Tieger.

10            MR. TIEGER:  I -- just so that the Prosecution's position with

11    respect to the next witness is not misunderstood, when the issue was

12    raised, I think a couple of days ago, and the Court deferred discussion

13    about the timeliness of 65 ter summaries, one of the points I would have

14    made was that our capacity to begin cross-examination immediately upon the

15    conclusion of Mr. Micic's testimony is in question or -- obviously, and I

16    can assure the Court we are trying to do our best.  But in view of the

17    timing of the submissions, that was -- that still remains a matter of

18    doubt, notwithstanding our best efforts.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber prefers to first finish the

20    testimony of Ms. Hrvacanin and -- did I say --

21            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour --

22                          [Trial Chamber confers]

23            MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I did not mean to initiate a lengthy

24    discussion of course.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  But after we've finished with this witness we'll deal

Page 19321

 1    with procedural matters, and whether it would be immediately or after a

 2    break or even to come back on Friday or, if we are not sitting on Friday,

 3    to do it Monday morning is still to be seen.

 4            Then are you ready, Mr. Tieger, to continue the cross-examination

 5    of the witness, Ms. Hrvacanin?

 6            MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  She may then be brought to the courtroom.

 8            Mr. Tieger, on the basis of the 60 per cent guidance, you would

 9    have approximately another half-hour.  If you could try -- we are not --

10    there's no other witness waiting, so it's perhaps a little bit less

11    important under those circumstances.  But I would rather keep the matter

12    in balance.

13            MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I appreciate the guidance.

14                          [The witness entered court]

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mrs. Hrvacanin.  Perhaps unnecessary,

18    but I would like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn

19    declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that you will

20    speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Mr. Tieger

21    will continue his cross-examination.

22            Please proceed.

23            MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                          WITNESS:  SLOBODANKA HRVACANIN [Resumed]

25                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 19322

 1                          Cross-examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

 2       Q.   Good afternoon, Ms. Hrvacanin.

 3       A.   Good afternoon.

 4       Q.   You were asked by Mr. Stewart some questions about the SDS and the

 5    Main Board, and during the course of that discussion, if I understood you

 6    correctly, you referred to the fact that it was a democratic party and

 7    then indicated that there were no orders or directives.  Did I understand

 8    that correctly or were you --

 9       A.   Yes, absolutely.

10       Q.   So your position is it -- that it was not a hierarchical

11    organisation where policies and instructions emanated from the top of the

12    party to the lower levels of the party and were expected to be followed

13    and implemented.  It was not that type of organisation; it was more of a

14    club, I suppose.  Is that it?

15       A.   A movement.  It was more of a movement than a party, initially.

16       Q.   Well, let me -- this Court has had an opportunity, as you've heard

17    before, to receive and review a great deal of evidence, including, as

18    we've indicated previously, conversations between various party officials.

19    I'd like to bring your attention quickly to just a couple of those.  First

20    at tab 21 we see a discussion or conversation held on September 26th,

21    1991, between Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Stanic.

22            MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, that was previously exhibited as P899, I

23    believe.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Your list says that it's P529, tab 387, but that

25    seems not --

Page 19323

 1            MR. TIEGER:  Tab 21, Your Honour.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, 21.  I'm making a mistake.  Yes, P899 on the

 3    list --

 4            MR. TIEGER:  And for the benefit of the interpreters, the excerpt

 5    that I will be reading can be found on page 0323-5899 in approximately the

 6    middle of the page.

 7       Q.   After some discussion in the earlier part of the conversation,

 8    Ms. Hrvacanin, between Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Stanic involving some

 9    activities of SDS members in that municipality, Dr. Karadzic says the

10    following:  "Tell them that I will dismiss the board and appoint other

11    people.  You tell them that.  I will, it wouldn't the first or the last

12    time.  I will dismiss the idiots who are idiots and who are not

13    implementing the SDS policy.  Let them for SPO, but I don't mind.  They

14    won't do that in my party."

15            And I would also like to read to you an excerpt from a document

16    that was exhibited previously as P898.  That's also a conversation in

17    September 1991 involving Dr. Karadzic.  And there he's talking to people

18    in Prijedor.

19            MR. TIEGER:  For the benefit of the interpreters, the relevant

20    section can be found at 03233006.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us the tab number in the --

22            MR. TIEGER:  It was distributed separately, Your Honour.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24            MR. STEWART:  All right.

25            MR. TIEGER:  Oh, I'm sorry, apparently it wasn't -- my mistake.

Page 19324

 1    It was not yet distributed.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3            MR. TIEGER:  In any event, I should have noted that one way or the

 4    other.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6            MR. TIEGER:  I indicated the portion in the B/C/S transcript.  The

 7    English translation section can be found on the third page of the

 8    intercepted conversation at L0110476.

 9       Q.   And here, too, Dr. Karadzic is addressing the question of people

10    in the field and he says:  "Let them fuck their mothers.  Let them make

11    their own party.  Let them resign.  Whoever refuses to obey Sarajevo

12    should resign.  Write papers for them tomorrow and say:  This is a party

13    which has its top and its bottom.  And nobody will fuck about under our

14    name."

15            And then he continues:  "And please tell them this.  Please,

16    whoever won't adhere to the politics of the party and implement the

17    policies of the party but adheres to their own private policies, let them

18    sign here, let them leave their place in the municipality, and we will put

19    new people there."

20            Now, Ms. Hrvacanin, I could also draw your attention to larger

21    gatherings at which issues of discipline within the party were raised,

22    such as the Deputies' Club of February 28, 1992, the Court has seen that

23    where Dr. Karadzic raises that issue and discusses the -- emphatically the

24    need for people to adhere to the party policy.  But in light of what

25    you've had a chance to hear let me ask you this:  You explained to us

Page 19325

 1    yesterday [sic] - and I know it wasn't easy to discuss those matters -

 2    that you suppressed a lot of things that happened during -- just that

 3    happened prior to the conflict and during the conflict.  And I'd like to

 4    know if the matter of the party hierarchy and discipline with the party --

 5    within the party and the need to follow the directives of the party

 6    leadership is one of those matters that you have suppressed since that

 7    time?

 8       A.   Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor, I never had any problems nor did I

 9    ever listen to others.  I always followed my conscience.  I don't think

10    anybody was excluded from the Serbian Democratic Party because they didn't

11    do what they were supposed to do.  I can't be the judge of some people and

12    say whether they did one thing or not.  This is the first time I hear of

13    this type of conversations.  I never had an occasion before to hear

14    President Karadzic using this kind of vocabulary.  I am absolutely

15    astonished.  Our language is verbose, but this is just too much.

16       Q.   In the excerpts from the intercepts that you had a chance to hear,

17    was it clear to you that Dr. Karadzic as well as the people to whom he's

18    speaking, seemed to think that there is a party structure and hierarchy in

19    which the party leadership issues instructions and orders and the others

20    in the party are required and expected to follow?

21            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, the -- over several pages of the

22    transcript now and over several minutes we seem to be crossing that line

23    between something which is progress with questions and answers of a

24    witness and something that's becoming exposition by the Prosecution and in

25    the nature of a debate or discussion.

Page 19326

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, if you had asked the witness whether it

 2    was clear to the witness on the basis of the excerpts she heard whether

 3    Mr. Karadzic seemed to think something is perhaps not something the

 4    witness could answer.  Of course what the witness could do - but I wonder

 5    whether we need the witness for that - is to consider the content of these

 6    excerpts or the content of these intercepts in its context, and then to

 7    see what conclusions they would allow.  We are more or less asking the

 8    witness to do what, in my view, is for the Court to do in asking what --

 9    whether on the basis of the excerpts the witness also thinks that

10    Mr. Karadzic had something on his mind.

11            MR. TIEGER:  All right.  Well, perhaps that was ill-phrased,

12    Your Honour, but I am talking to someone who was a member of the party,

13    who had contact with Dr. Karadzic --

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Rephrase your question.

15            MR. TIEGER:  Sure.

16       Q.   Ms. Hrvacanin, in the intercepts that you just heard, Dr. Karadzic

17    is issuing instructions to people and -- in the party and telling them

18    that those instructions must be followed or there will be a clear penalty.

19    Correct?

20       A.   This is what you said about this conversation, but I don't know

21    whether this is correct.  I quite often opposed President Karadzic and I

22    never had any problems because of that.  I was never punished --

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hrvacanin, the question is not whether you

24    opposed Mr. Karadzic and whether you were punished, but whether in this

25    intercept Mr. Karadzic clearly says:  If you don't follow the policies,

Page 19327

 1    there's no place for you at your posts within the party.  That's the

 2    question of Mr. Tieger.  Would you agree that that's what Mr. Karadzic is

 3    saying here or do you have another understanding of these words?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not how I perceive all this,

 5    and I can't claim that.  I can only be sure of what I heard and what I

 6    saw, but this, I can't say anything about this.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You have no knowledge.  But I think for the

 8    next question it would be important for Mr. Tieger to know whether you

 9    agree that in this conversation Mr. Karadzic uses words and language which

10    say:  Follow the party policy, otherwise you'll be replaced.  Is that what

11    he says here?  Is that how you understood his words in this telephone

12    conversation?

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from what I've heard, this

14    would be the case.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16            Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

17            MR. TIEGER:

18       Q.   You know, Ms. Hrvacanin, I'm going to move on to a related topic

19    instead of pursuing that issue further at this moment.  Because you also

20    testified about your view of Mr. Krajisnik's power and authority within

21    the SDS and within Republika Srpska.  Now, did -- did you -- and I believe

22    you told us as a general matter that it was not the highest authority and

23    that he was not involved in the Main Board all the time or not at all the

24    meetings.  I'm not trying to mis-paraphrase your testimony, simply provide

25    a general reminder of what you said.

Page 19328

 1            Let me ask you preliminarily, though, whether or not

 2    Mr. Krajisnik's power in Republika Srpska and within the SDS increased

 3    over time, let's say during the period of time during the Main Board --

 4    during the period of time from when you joined the Main Board to when you

 5    left the Main Board.  Did it stay the same as you've described?  Did it

 6    increase over time?

 7       A.   No.  Mr. Karadzic had the most power in the Main Board, and later

 8    on as president of state.  Mr. Krajisnik had in his competencies as

 9    president of the Assembly.  He could not issue an order to anybody to

10    replace somebody, to appoint somebody.  He did not have any influence on

11    either the police or the army.

12       Q.   So if I understand you correctly, in answering my question you're

13    suggesting that Mr. Krajisnik's formal competencies didn't change during

14    the period of time you were on the -- you were on the Main Board - and

15    again I'm talking about both within the SDS and within Republika Srpska -

16    and therefore, according to you, his power didn't change during that time?

17            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, perhaps it's worth just reminding

18    ourselves that the period -- the period during which Mrs. Hrvacanin was on

19    the Main Board started quite early in the whole period that we're talking

20    about.

21            MR. TIEGER:  Let me -- that's fair.  Let me modify that question

22    to this extent.

23       Q.   If you recall the question.  We just have you think about it from

24    your second term in the Main Board, from mid-July 1991 onward.  Did

25    Mr. Krajisnik's power and authority within the SDS and within Republika

Page 19329

 1    Srpska, according to you, stay the same during that period, that is from

 2    mid-1991 until the time you were no longer on the Main Board?

 3       A.   President Krajisnik had the same competencies as he had up to

 4    1991.  His competencies did not increase after that, or at least I'm not

 5    aware of that.

 6       Q.   Okay - sorry - and does that mean that his power and authority

 7    also did not change during that time, according to you?

 8       A.   Only the competencies that are provided for by the constitution

 9    and laws.  Those are the competencies that Mr. Krajisnik had.  As a member

10    of the Main Board, he did not have any particular competencies or

11    authorities, nor could he have any.  I've told you that the party had an

12    Executive Board that managed the party.  As far as I know, Mr. Krajisnik

13    was never a member of the Executive Board of the party.

14       Q.   Okay.  And your position is, as you described it to us, that his

15    power and authority was limited to and co-extensive with his formal

16    competencies.  Do I understand that correctly?

17       A.   Yes, you understand that correctly, Mr. Prosecutor.

18       Q.   Did you ever hear from others within the SDS or within the

19    political bodies of Republika Srpska that Mr. Krajisnik had a degree of

20    power and authority beyond the strict functions that were bestowed by law,

21    that were within his competencies?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   This Trial Chamber has heard evidence from witnesses who explained

24    that Mr. Krajisnik and Dr. Karadzic were the two top leaders of the

25    Bosnian Serbs, that they were essentially united as a duo, and that they

Page 19330

 1    exercised their power, at least in part, through [Realtime transcript read

 2    in error "to"] people who answered to them and who answered to them and

 3    ensured that their policies and instructions were implemented. Isn't it

 4    the case, Mrs. Hrvacanin, that you were also one of the people who knew

 5    that there were important people who worked for Mr. Krajisnik - and I'm

 6    not talking about simple Assembly staffers or clerical people - but

 7    important people within the SDS and the political bodies of Republika

 8    Srpska who were his people, who worked for him?

 9       A.   I'm sorry.  The question is a little bit strange.  These people of

10    his -- I was on good terms both with Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic, but I

11    didn't share the same opinions, either as Mr. Karadzic or as

12    Mr. Krajisnik.  If somebody socialises or spends time with someone, it

13    doesn't mean that they share views.  There were probably people who

14    boasted about working for something or for someone, at least that's what I

15    think, especially if people believed that they are worth less than they

16    actually are.  But I don't see any reason why this would grant somebody

17    more or less popularity.  I think that Mr. Krajisnik was the number two

18    person, but who was well-known among the Serbian people and he was

19    popular.  But I don't think that he actually had power, at least this is

20    my personal opinion.  Perhaps I am mistaken, but that's what I think.

21       Q.   Well, I appreciate the response, but it doesn't quite answer the

22    question I asked, which was that you were one -- first of all, I told you

23    there were people who testified who said that there were people who worked

24    for Mr. Krajisnik, and thereby helped to ensure the implementation of the

25    policies and instructions of Mr. Krajisnik and Dr. Karadzic.  And I asked

Page 19331

 1    you if you were one of those people who knew that there were those who

 2    worked for Mr. Krajisnik and implemented the policies of Dr. Karadzic and

 3    Mr. Krajisnik?

 4       A.   I don't know if it was the same policy of Mr. Karadzic and

 5    Mr. Krajisnik.  They were in the same party.  They belonged to the same

 6    people.  I cannot answer that because I personally don't know who was

 7    whose man, as you say it, and who worked for whom.  I think that we all

 8    worked on the same task, to create something that would be a state which

 9    would have no communism.  I don't have any other information.  Perhaps

10    there are such people, but I don't know who they are.

11       Q.   Well, I think we should look next then at tab -- the document

12    located I believe at tab 13, but let me check.  That's correct.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  That tab has no exhibit number yet, Mr. Tieger?

14            MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour, that's right.  It does need

15    an exhibit number.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17            THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 13, Your Honours, will be P1018.

18            MR. TIEGER:

19       Q.   Ms. Hrvacanin, as you can see, the document at tab 13, which is

20    now P1018, reflects the minutes of the joint session of four coordinating

21    boards of the SDS in the territory of Krajina, held on July 23rd, 1993.

22    You are one of those people present, and during the course of that meeting

23    there is a discussion about, among other things, a visit by

24    Mr. Jovo Mijatovic, a visit that a number of the participants of the

25    meeting discussed.  And you speak at page L0057505 of the English and page

Page 19332

 1    00423669 of the B/C/S.

 2            MR. TIEGER:  So for the benefit of the interpreters and

 3    orientation and to start at the beginning of what you say, you say:  "When

 4    I heard some things here, if I had not been at the Main Board, I would

 5    have thought that I was dreaming.  I also condemn all the members of the

 6    Main Board for not supporting me in my radical views."

 7       Q.   Then you go on, Ms. Hrvacanin, to discuss an opinion of yours that

 8    was different from the other members of the Main Board, that's found at

 9    the bottom of the English, where you say:  "As far" -- the bottom of the

10    first page that I just referred to of the English.  You say:  "As far as

11    the statute was concerned, I was the only one whose opinion was different

12    from the rest of the Main Board."

13            Then you suggest that that was possibly because you were a woman.

14    And what you had proposed, as it indicates, is that the party president

15    should not nominate one-third of the board members -- of the Executive

16    Board members, and no one supported you in that regard.

17            Then you go on to the part I wanted in particular to direct your

18    attention to.  You note that there was no deputy president of the party,

19    and then you explain:  "Excuse me, but all parties in the world have one,

20    but our president does not want it.  He wants to have absolute control

21    over everything, as he is afraid of any subversion."

22            And I'll pause there for a moment.  You're talking about

23    Dr. Karadzic there.  Correct?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   And then you say:  "He is represented by the Executive Board

Page 19333

 1    president, such as Jovo Mijatovic."

 2            And again when he say:  "He is represented by the Executive Board

 3    president," you mean that Dr. Karadzic, as president of the party, is

 4    represented by Jovo Mijatovic, as president of the Executive Board.

 5    Correct?

 6       A.   Yes.  What I wanted to say was that Mr. Mijatovic could not

 7    represent the Main Board because he was a member of the Assembly, and was

 8    meant to work for the Assembly and not the Executive Board.  However, he

 9    appeared as the chairman or president of the regional board.

10       Q.   Let's continue.  I see you've had a chance to read ahead, but I

11    want to take it a step at a time because Their Honours have not had a

12    chance to see this.  Then you continue and say:  "My apologies to the

13    president, but I cannot respect a representative whose opinion is the

14    opinion of the one he works for, and we know who he is working for, for

15    Krajisnik, president of the Assembly.  I told him that myself, and we are

16    now worst enemies because I have my own opinion and he has somebody

17    else's."

18            Ms. Hrvacanin, isn't it the case that you knew that when

19    Dr. Karadzic wanted to send someone to enforce his policies, he'd send, in

20    this case, someone who worked for Mr. Krajisnik, and this was because - as

21    you pointed out yourself before - they were number one and number two and

22    did not diverge in their views.

23            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, the question needs to be put with some

24    care, we suggest.  Mr. Krajisnik -- I'm sorry, Mr. Tieger, I beg your

25    pardon, in the bit of the paragraph starts:  "Mrs. Hrvacanin, isn't it the

Page 19334

 1    case that you knew when Dr. Karadzic wanted to send someone," which is

 2    putting a general proposition to the witness.  In other words, whenever

 3    Dr. Karadzic wanted to send someone, he'd send, in this case, someone who

 4    worked for Mr. Krajisnik.  Mr. Tieger should make the question up and make

 5    it clear whether it's general or specific.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that the second part of your question

 7    indicated that you wanted to make this specific example subject of your

 8    question, rather than the general situation?  Let's start with --

 9            MR. TIEGER:  I'm fine with starting there of course, Your Honour.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Because it's confusing whether it's general or

11    specific.  So perhaps you could put the question again to the witness.

12            MR. TIEGER:

13       Q.   I had asked you before, Ms. Hrvacanin, about whether or not there

14    were -- you knew there were people who worked for Mr. Krajisnik and who --

15    through whom the policies of Mr. Krajisnik and Dr. Karadzic were

16    implemented.  Isn't this an example of someone who worked for

17    Mr. Krajisnik being sent by Dr. Karadzic to enforce the instructions and

18    policies of Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik both?

19       A.   I can say the following:  Mr. Jovo Mijatovic was a deputy and it's

20    quite normal for the deputy to follow the work of the National Assembly,

21    to have contacts with the president of the Assembly, just as it was my

22    task to follow the policy of Mr. Radovan Karadzic and to complete some

23    tasks.  Mr. Mijatovic was in the party's Executive Board.  Who ordered him

24    to be a regional president or chairman is something that I don't know.  I

25    actually stood up to him on that, and you had the opportunity to read that

Page 19335

 1    I was also opposed to the statute, that the president was proposing

 2    one-third of the board.  But I cannot definitely say that this person

 3    worked for this person and that person worked for that person.  I think

 4    that we were all supposed to be working on the same thing, but we had to

 5    be responsible in accordance with the hierarchy, the deputy answering to

 6    Mr. Krajisnik, and I would be answering to the president of the party

 7    because these are different things.  Executive power and political power,

 8    these are two things, different things.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, just to better understand the answer of

10    the witness, are you saying that deputies were answering Mr. Krajisnik so

11    that in the hierarchical system they were subordinate to Mr. Krajisnik?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and they gave their oath at the

13    Assembly.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  To follow the opinions -- or at least to follow the

15    opinions of the speaker of the Assembly?

16            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, may -- I -- Your Honour has in the past

17    directed that I should rarely object, but I have before and do on this

18    occasion make this objection, Your Honour:  If the questions that

19    Your Honour were putting came from the Prosecution, I would undoubtedly

20    object to them as leading and I have -- I maintain my submission,

21    Your Honour, that leading questions from the Bench are inherently more

22    dangerous than leading questions from the Prosecution because of the

23    additional authority that Your Honours' have.

24            When Mrs. Hrvacanin used a phrase like "the deputy answering to

25    Mr. Krajisnik," it would, with respect, be much more satisfactory simply

Page 19336

 1    to ask her, if an explanation is required, which I understand, to ask her

 2    neutrally to expound upon but rather than put to her specifically a

 3    meaning to that phrase.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  It's on the record that you would have preferred me

 5    to put that question, Mr. Stewart.

 6            Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

 7            MR. STEWART:  Sorry, could I just add, for the record, I say

 8    "Your Honour has in the past directed that I should rarely direct."  Your

 9    Honour has directed that I should rarely object in the course of Judges'

10    questioning.  Your Honour has given no such instruction generally.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  I wouldn't have doubts -- MR. STEWART:  I'd like to

12    thank Your Honour for that.

13            JUDGE ORIE: -- apart from it -- it might not have been effective.

14            MR. STEWART:  It wouldn't have been, Your Honour, I'm afraid.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger is invited to proceed.

16            Nevertheless, before doing so I see that my last question was not

17    answered yet.

18            Could you explain to us what you meant when you say that they gave

19    their oath at the Assembly, in relation to your previous answer?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That has something to do with it to

21    the extent that the deputies have to agree on things with the president of

22    the Assembly, and they also have to report back to him about the things

23    that they're doing.  If they're doing something independently, on their

24    own, then I don't know; that's something that I really cannot answer,

25    whether anybody did something on their own.

Page 19337

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  That's not what you expected them to do under the

 2    oath they had given.  Is that a correct understanding of your answer?

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A few deputies had that function,

 4    both to be a deputy as well as an official of the SDS.  I think that was

 5    Mr. Mijatovic, and perhaps -- well, actually, I don't recall anyone else

 6    having any separate functions or posts in the SDS.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's not an answer to my question.  My question

 8    was where you said -- you said:  "Deputies have to agree on things with

 9    the president of the Assembly and they also have to report back to him

10    about the things they are doing."

11            And then you said:  "If they're doing something independently, on

12    their own, then I don't know; that's something I really cannot answer,

13    whether anybody did something on their own."

14            And then I asked you that whether I correctly understood your

15    answer that you would not expect a deputy to do things on their own?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, yes, you understood

17    me correctly.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Tieger -- Judge Hanoteau has a

19    question.

20            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Madam, I would need a

21    clarification, please.  To go back to the question of the President of

22    the -- the President of this Court, this Trial Chamber, he says:  [In

23    English]" -- to understand the answer of the witness, are you saying that

24    deputies were answering Mr. Krajisnik so that in the hierarchical system

25    they were subordinate to Mr. Krajisnik?"

Page 19338

 1            [Interpretation] And you've answered:

 2            [In English] "Yes, and they gave their oath at the Assembly."

 3            [Interpretation] Could you please clarify this answer when you say

 4    that the deputies are to answer to Mr. Krajisnik.  What do you mean by

 5    that?  I did not understand quite clearly what you meant and I would like

 6    you to clarify that point for me, please.  Thank you.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was never a deputy, but,

 8    Your Honour, I will try to explain that.  I think that all deputies should

 9    work together, reach agreement, because they were elected by the people.

10    They should agree on the policy, work laws, all current issues.  I don't

11    think that they were subordinated to Mr. Krajisnik, but they did need to

12    inform him and keep him updated about their work.  Yes, I believe that

13    they should have done that, that they could not do anything out in the

14    field without saying where they were going.  But there were such people

15    who did what they wanted.

16            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, I see.  But does that mean

17    that within the Assembly they had to answer to Mr. Krajisnik?  Were they

18    subordinated to him?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they were not subordinated.

20    They were all equal, but the president of the Assembly is the person who

21    coordinates the work of the Assembly, manages the Assembly, and should be

22    informed about certain activities of the deputies, as far as I know.  I

23    don't know anything about that.

24            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I see.  Could you please tell us

25    what kind of oath did the deputies say?

Page 19339

 1            [In English] -- of the Assembly --

 2            [Interpretation] What kind of oath was it?  Can you tell us what

 3    would they say, for instance?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's an oath that they will work

 5    justly, honestly, truthfully, similar to the solemn declaration that I

 6    gave here.  That's the oath.  It's not anything special.  I really cannot

 7    remember exactly how it goes, but I know that there was an oath when a

 8    person became a member of the Assembly.

 9            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And a last question, Madam.

10    According to you, did Mr. Krajisnik have a moral authority on those

11    people?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course he had moral

13    authority, yes.

14            JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

16            MR. TIEGER:

17       Q.   That's part of what made him number two in the hierarchy of

18    Republika Srpska to Dr. Karadzic, wasn't it, is the authority he had over

19    the deputies?

20       A.   Mr. Krajisnik was very popular in the tripartite Assembly.  He

21    chaired the meetings and he did it very well --

22       Q.   Ms. Hrvacanin --

23       A.   -- people followed that.

24       Q.   And you've explained that to us before and I wanted to focus on

25    the point.  You've indicated to us that Mr. Krajisnik had this authority

Page 19340

 1    over the deputies and I asked you if that wasn't part of what made him

 2    number two in the hierarchy?

 3            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, it seems we may have a repetition of

 4    something which occurred previously in Ms. Hrvacanin's evidence, which is

 5    a lack of specific clarity as to which Assembly is being talked about, at

 6    which part of her evidence.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you perhaps rephrase the question, Mr. Tieger,

 8    so as to know whether we are talking about --

 9            MR. TIEGER:  Sure, Your Honour --

10            JUDGE ORIE: -- the Assembly of BiH or Republika Srpska.

11            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, may I observe that the point also

12    applies retrospectively to some of the evidence that's been given already

13    over the last 10 or 15 minutes, if that's to be used as a -- any sort of

14    introduction to questions.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16            MR. TIEGER:

17       Q.   Ms. Hrvacanin, when you spoke of the authority that Mr. Krajisnik

18    had over the deputies, it's the case, isn't it, that you were talking

19    about the authority that Mr. Krajisnik had over the deputies in the

20    Bosnian Serb Assembly.  Correct?

21       A.   Yes, that is correct.

22       Q.   Okay.  And then I ask you simply whether or not the authority that

23    Mr. Krajisnik had over the deputies in the Assembly, the RS Assembly, was

24    part of the reason that he was number two in the power structure, in the

25    hierarchy, of the Republika Srpska authorities?

Page 19341

 1       A.   But not political.  It was legislative part of the power; that's

 2    where he was number two.

 3       Q.   Well, he was number one in the legislative part of the power,

 4    wasn't he?

 5       A.   Well, I don't know.  I suppose that the president of state is

 6    person number one.  I'm not a lawyer.  I don't know.  I believe that in

 7    every state its president is number one.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hrvacanin, could you please carefully listen to

 9    the question.  The question was not whether the president was number one,

10    but on the legislative field, whether Mr. Krajisnik there was number one.

11    And I take it that Mr. Tieger refers to the position of Mr. Krajisnik as

12    speaker of the Assembly.

13            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, a question like -- putting it to the

14    witness that somebody was number one -- we already known and have known

15    for about a year and a half of this trial, Mr. Krajisnik's specific,

16    official position as president of the Assembly.  And -- the Defence

17    wouldn't suggest that there isn't an obvious sense in which that made him

18    number one in the Assembly --

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20            MR. STEWART: -- as a matter of pure formality.  If the question is

21    going further than that, then we suggest that it has to be specifically

22    identified in the question or make clear to the witness that it is

23    something other than that technical, formal position which is being

24    explored and that it should therefore be made fairly clear to the witness

25    in a fair way what is being asked.

Page 19342

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  I think that Mr. Tieger clearly referred to one of

 2    the earlier answers of the witness where she made a kind of order.

 3            But perhaps, Mr. Tieger, you specifically read that portion of the

 4    answer to the witness and then ask for the clarification you are seeking.

 5            Mr. Tieger, you are struggling to find it.  I am informed that it

 6    should be at 14 hours, 53 minutes, 32.  That's at least where you ...

 7            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, we had this problem before, and in fact

 8    I'm not able to reset the time on these computers, Your Honour supposes

 9    that I can.  They're not all on the same time.  So could I have a page

10    number, please, and a line --

11            JUDGE ORIE:  That would be page 12.

12            MR. STEWART:  Thank you.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Second half of the page I think, line 18, but that's

14    the question not the answer of the witness.  So to that extent it's --

15    might not assist you.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17            MR. TIEGER:

18       Q.   Ms. Hrvacanin, I hope this microphone is working.  I had indicated

19    to you in a previous question the evidence that the Trial Chamber had

20    heard from witnesses, and now I'll just read you what I said in the

21    question.

22            "Who explained that Mr. Krajisnik and Dr. Karadzic were the two

23    top leaders of the Bosnian Serbs, that they were essentially united as a

24    duo and that they exercised their power, at least in part," it says "to

25    people," but I thought "through people" is what I said, "who answered to

Page 19343

 1    them and -- who answered to them and ensured that their policies were

 2    implemented."

 3            And then I went on to ask you whether it wasn't the case that you

 4    were one of those people who knew about that manner of working through

 5    important people to implement their policies.

 6            And then your answer was:  "I'm sorry, the question is a little

 7    bit strange.  These people of his, I was on good terms both with Mr.

 8    Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic, but I didn't share the same opinions, either

 9    as Mr. Karadzic or as Mr. Krajisnik.  If someone socialises or spends time

10    with someone, it doesn't mean that they share views."

11            And then you said:  "There were probably people who boasted about

12    it," but you don't see where would grant somebody more or less

13    popularity.  And then you said, "I think that Mr. Krajisnik was the number

14    two person but who was well-known among the Serbian people and he was

15    popular.  I don't think that he actually had power, at least, that -- this

16    is my personal opinion.  Perhaps, I am mistaken.  That's what I thought."

17            So my question to you had focussed on evidence this Court had

18    heard about Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik being closely aligned and

19    virtually united and being the two top people.  You said Mr. Krajisnik --

20    I think Mr. Krajisnik was the number two person, in your view, and then

21    you disputed his power.  Is that essentially what happened in that

22    exchange?

23       A.   This is what I wanted to say.  However, Mr. Karadzic had absolute

24    power, and I don't believe that he would share it with anybody.  And I

25    believe that what I've told you is correct.  The second person was

Page 19344

 1    undoubtedly President Krajisnik.  But we're talking about two different

 2    dimensions here, at least in my view.  I don't know whether I am at all

 3    competent to say something like that.

 4       Q.   But in 1993, Ms. Hrvacanin, you also felt that -- or asserted that

 5    Dr. Karadzic wanted to have absolute power over everything and you pointed

 6    out to the other people present at the meeting that Dr. Karadzic in that

 7    case, in that instance, was trying to implement his control by sending

 8    someone who worked for Mr. Krajisnik.  Isn't that a reflection of their

 9    alignment and relationship in the hierarchy of Republika Srpska and your

10    knowledge about that?

11       A.   I don't remember, Mr. Prosecutor, that I said that he had sent

12    somebody on behalf of President Krajisnik -- President Karadzic, that is.

13    He had people from the Executive Board that he sent to do jobs for him, if

14    that was needed.  I don't think I've ever said that.  I believe that this

15    was part of your question put to me, and the question was whether I am

16    aware of the fact, and let me not quote you.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, I'm reminding you of what I said at the

18    beginning as far as time is concerned.  I noticed that there were some

19    difficulties in getting the answers, but at the same time I'd like you to

20    wrap up.

21            MR. TIEGER:

22       Q.   Just a couple of quick questions then, Ms. Hrvacanin, about a

23    slightly different matter.  You mentioned your friendship with

24    Mrs. Plavsic.  If I understood you correctly, she asked you to join her

25    party, and the only reason that you did not do so was because you were

Page 19345

 1    unwilling at that time to change parties.  But otherwise, you had no

 2    particular problems with Mrs. Plavsic and your friendship was maintained?

 3       A.   That's correct.

 4       Q.   And I take it that the two of you were familiar with each other's

 5    views on matters of importance at that time?

 6       A.   I think so.

 7       Q.   Okay.  And apart from the disagreement over whether or not you

 8    were willing to join her party, is it the case that your views were

 9    generally in harmony?

10       A.   Yes.  Mrs. Plavsic's opinion and mine were very much in harmony.

11       Q.   And I ask you that in particular because of your comments during

12    the earlier part of your testimony about your attitude toward people of

13    other ethnicities or religion.  I presume that you were also familiar with

14    Mrs. Plavsic's views toward Muslims?

15       A.   Not entirely.

16       Q.   Well, in making references, let me turn quickly to tab 38 -- no,

17    I'm sorry, it's tab 46, and it needs an exhibit number.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19            THE REGISTRAR:  That would be P1019, Your Honours.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

21            MR. TIEGER:

22       Q.   This is an interview with Mrs. Plavsic that was published in Svet

23    in September 1993, and in particular I wanted to refer to a portion found

24    at 03017442.

25            MR. STEWART:  It's tab 47, I think, isn't it?

Page 19346

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  I think it's tab 46.

 2            MR. TIEGER:  46.

 3            MR. STEWART:  Oh, well, not in my bundle, but --

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, the last three digits of the ERN number

 5    in English:  438.  So if it's with you under tab 47, then perhaps you

 6    could --

 7            MR. STEWART:  It is, Your Honour, but I can make that adjustment

 8    now.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

10            MR. TIEGER:

11       Q.   And the portion I'm about to quote is found on the -- the pages

12    marked page 3 in the handwritten portion by the picture of Mrs. Plavsic

13    with the telephone under the general heading "would you comment on Ejub

14    Ganic's statement that Muslims are Serbs by origin."  Mrs. Plavsic says

15    about halfway through that answer:  "And now he is saying the Muslims are

16    Serbs by origin.  I will say this:  It is true, but this is

17    genetically-tainted Serbian material which converted to Islam.  And, of

18    course, from generation to generation this genetic pool has been shrinking

19    and becoming evermore degenerate, and that is manifested in their simple

20    manner of expression which dictates their way of thinking and behaviour.

21    This is already rooted in the genes."

22            Then she goes on to talk about the Islamic religion a bit.

23            Ms. Hrvacanin, whether or not you were aware of Ms. Plavsic's

24    specific genetic views about Muslims, surely you were aware of her

25    unfavourable and unkind views about it Muslims?

Page 19347

 1            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, if Mr. Tieger is going to start by

 2    citing a very specific passage from the interview, in fairness to the

 3    witness he ought to put to her whether she agrees with that specifically

 4    before he goes on to a more general question.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 6            MR. TIEGER:

 7       Q.   Ms. Hrvacanin, were you aware of these particular views that I've

 8    just read of Ms. Plavsic toward Muslims?

 9       A.   No, no, I was not aware of them.  Mrs. Plavsic was married to an

10    Arab and she had lived with him for seven years.  Maybe that's where the

11    hatred comes from.  I don't know.  But I know for a fact that she lived in

12    Libya.

13       Q.   And during the course of your friendship with Mrs. Plavsic and the

14    course of your discussions with her, isn't it the case that you became

15    aware of what you've just described as her hatred toward Muslims?

16       A.   Not based on any discussions, but based on your question I have

17    come up with the hypothesis of the origin of all that.  If she was married

18    to an Arab, to a person who followed Islamic religion, maybe that's why

19    she said something like that.  The two of us never discussed such topics;

20    we talked about other things.

21       Q.   During the course of your discussions with Mrs. Plavsic, including

22    your discussions of whether or not you would join her party, you never

23    discussed Muslims?

24       A.   No, not with Mrs. Plavsic.  She never spoke about Muslims.  We

25    spoke about Professor Koljevic, about the current situation as it was,

Page 19348

 1    because I did a lot of work for Dobret [phoen] where she tried to help me

 2    finding the sources of humanitarian aid all over the world.  We never had

 3    any reason to say talk about Muslims.

 4       Q.   And you never became aware from any other source, Mrs. -- you

 5    never became about Mrs. Plavsic's view of Muslims, one way or another,

 6    from any other source during the years that you knew her.  Is that your

 7    testimony?

 8       A.   I knew Mrs. Plavsic for two years, starting with 1990 onwards.

 9    Our friendship was not of a nature for me to know what Mrs. Plavsic

10    thought.  She was a controversial person, in my view.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hrvacanin, would you please answer the questions.

12    The question was whether you ever became aware about Mrs. Plavsic's view

13    on Muslims.  And as Mr. Tieger added, one way or the other, so that would

14    be favourable or unfavourable.  You never became aware of how

15    Mrs. Plavsic's views on Muslims were.  Is that your testimony?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17            MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Nothing further.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

19            Mr. Stewart, any need to re-examine the witness?

20            MR. STEWART:  No.  Thank you, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  I would have a few questions for you, Ms. Hrvacanin.

22                          Questioned by the Court:

23            JUDGE ORIE:  You testified that an extended Presidency did not

24    exist.  Could you explain what you understood to be an extended Presidency

25    and why you testified that it did not exist?

Page 19349

 1       A.   There was Mrs. Plavsic, there was Mr. Koljevic, there were

 2    vice-presidents of the party who were elected in multi-parliamentary [as

 3    interpreted] elections.  As any other woman, I wanted Mrs. Plavsic to

 4    become president of Republika Srpska.  Then there was an idea at the Main

 5    Board that Mr. Karadzic should be put forth as a member of the Presidency.

 6    And the same happened at the Assembly on the 12th of May, 1992.  That

 7    Assembly session was held in Banja Luka.  That is where Karadzic was

 8    elected the president of the Presidency.

 9            When he joined the Presidency, in my view, this became an extended

10    Presidency because he was not elected by people, but rather he was put

11    forth by the politicians and he was elected at the Assembly session by the

12    MPs.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  You say:  "When he joined the Presidency, in my view,

14    this became an extended Presidency."

15            Who were members of that extended Presidency?

16       A.   President Karadzic, Professor Plavsic, and Professor Koljevic were

17    the extended Presidency.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time you told us, and let me just

19    try to find the source exactly.  Your testimony was -- and you were

20    talking about Mr. Krajisnik.  You said:  "He was not a member of the

21    extended Presidency.  Such a Presidency did not exist for the matter."

22            Now you explained that there was an extended Presidency consisting

23    of Mr. Karadzic, Mrs. Plavsic, and Mr. Koljevic.  So that extended

24    Presidency did exist, or did I misunderstand your testimony?

25       A.   You understood me well.  There was this body consisting of three

Page 19350

 1    members.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time you said when you said that

 3    Mr. Krajisnik was not a member of the extended Presidency you said:  "Such

 4    a Presidency did not exist for that matter."

 5            What had you -- what did you have in mind then?  Because there

 6    seems to be an extended Presidency which did not exist, whereas you just

 7    explained to us that the three-member Presidency did exist and that you

 8    called that also an extended Presidency.  Could you please clarify what

 9    extended Presidency did not exist.

10       A.   In order for somebody to become a member of the extended

11    Presidency, they have to be proposed by somebody and this has to be

12    confirmed by the Assembly.  Mr. Karadzic was proposed by the Main Board

13    and the MPs, and this was confirmed by the Assembly, as far as I know.

14    Mr. Krajisnik was never proposed by anybody, and that item was never on

15    the agenda of any of the Assembly meetings.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  If I follow your thought, I would have expected you

17    to testify to say Mr. Krajisnik was not a member of the extended

18    Presidency, but such a body did exist and was composed of Mr. Karadzic,

19    Mr. Koljevic, and Mrs. Plavsic.  But that's not what you said.  You said

20    that:  "Such a Presidency," and the previous line says that you were

21    talking about an extended Presidency, "did not exist."

22            Could you now tell me what body you had in mind which did not

23    exist?

24       A.   I believe that this was within the context of the question as to

25    whether Mr. Krajisnik was a member of such an extended Presidency.

Page 19351

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and you say he was not.  But you immediately

 2    added that such an extended Presidency -- or such a Presidency did not

 3    exist, which is -- I mean --

 4       A.   I apologise.  I may have misspoken.  First there was a two-member

 5    Presidency and then a three-member Presidency, which means that it was

 6    extended by an addition of another member, and this is what I claim now.

 7    And I apologise if I misspoke earlier.  I beg your understanding.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, were you aware of any extension of the

 9    Presidency in specific circumstances?  Because this Chamber has received

10    evidence which tells us that the three-member Presidency, under the laws,

11    would be extended in time of war, and many people called that extended

12    Presidency.  Was anything of this kind on your mind when you said that an

13    extended Presidency did not exist?

14       A.   I heard of one decision adopted by Mr. Karadzic.  In case of a

15    declaration of a state of war, the Presidency was to be expanded to

16    include the president of the Assembly and the prime minister.  But this is

17    something that never actually happened because a state of war was never

18    declared in Republika Srpska.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And was that on your mind when you said that

20    such an extended Presidency did not exist or because it's -- or did you

21    have ...

22       A.   No.  What I had in mind was this about the immediate threat of

23    war.


24            JUDGE ORIE:  Where you said the expanded Presidency did not exist,

25    did you have in mind the expanded Presidency, as you just described, or

Page 19352

 1    did you have in mind that the two-membership Presidency extended to three

 2    members, that that extended Presidency did not exist?  Which of the two?

 3       A.   The Presidency expanded to include Mr. Karadzic.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  That one did not exist or did that exist?

 5       A.   It did exist.  President Karadzic was then elected the president

 6    of state, while Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic were vice-presidents.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  So it seems that you might not have fully understood

 8    my question.  I was asking you about the non-existent extended Presidency.

 9    That's, I take it from your last answer, was not the three-member extended

10    Presidency, but was that then the Presidency, including the speaker of the

11    parliament and the prime minister, which you said did not come into

12    existence because there was no state of war.  Is that how I have to

13    understand your testimony?

14       A.   The Presidency with the speaker of the parliament and the prime

15    minister did not exist, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  And that's the one you referred to when you gave your

17    answer on the 6th of December.  Is that correct?

18       A.   That's correct.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Have you any knowledge on how the Presidency that did

20    exist, in your view, how that functioned?

21       A.   No.  I never attended Presidency sessions, so I really couldn't

22    say anything about that.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  So you do not know whether just the three members of

24    the Presidency were present or whether other were present as well?

25       A.   No.

Page 19353

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.  I've got one final

 2    question.  When you told us that you did not want to remember some things,

 3    you did that after some questions had been put to you in relation to the

 4    six strategic goals.  What exactly caused you -- first of all, let me ask

 5    you:  Is this one of the matters that you did not want to remember?

 6       A.   Not that I didn't want to remember those things, but actually many

 7    things from that period.  I don't want to remember the hunger, the

 8    difficulties after being expelled from my own house.  The sea of refugees

 9    that I received and with whom I talked.  This is something that many

10    people had to suffer through, and this is what I wish to suppress and do

11    not want to remember.  There was no electricity, there was no water, it

12    was winter. We didn't have anything to use for heating.  These were very

13    difficult, elementary states which made my own life and the life of my

14    family more difficult.  Even today my husband does not have a pension.  We

15    cannot go back to the town we lived in before the war.  Our property has

16    not been restored to us.  These are all the things that I do not wish to

17    remember.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So it was not about the six strategic goals

19    that you did not want to remember?

20       A.   No.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

22            Has -- have the questions of the Bench raised any need to put

23    further questions to the witness?

24            MR. TIEGER:  No, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart.

Page 19354

 1            MR. STEWART:  I just have one, Your Honour.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3            MR. STEWART:

 4       Q.   In 1992 did you have any knowledge yourself at any time of

 5    Mr. Krajisnik attending any meeting of an expanded or an extended

 6    Presidency of Republika Srpska?

 7            MR. TIEGER:  I object.  What's the basis for that?  This witness

 8    testified she had no idea who attended what meetings of the Presidency.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, let me -- if I -- I'll add that as a

10    question of the Bench, Mr. Stewart, if that would --

11            MR. STEWART:  I don't mind who asks the question, Your Honour, by

12    all means.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Just another question.

14            When you had left for Banja Luka, how did you become of what

15    happened in Pale, where, as far as I understand, the Presidency was

16    located?

17       A.   Until April, the road was passable.  They were still in Sarajevo.

18    I left Zenica in February for Banja Luka.  Later it was possible only to

19    be in contact by telephone, so that's how we spoke.  Later, when the

20    corridor was established and when the road was passable and clear again,

21    in that period -- before that I did not go to Pale.  So I don't know who

22    attended the meetings.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And telephone communication with Pale, was that

24    possible during the time when you couldn't go by road?

25       A.   For a while it was possible to go by road.  Then later this was

Page 19355

 1    interrupted, and then after a short while, perhaps after a month or so,

 2    the road was opened again.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But my question was whether there was telephone

 4    communication when you couldn't go there my road.

 5       A.   Yes, yes.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  And in these -- did you have telephone conversations

 7    with Pale at that time?

 8       A.   Very rarely.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what would then be the subject?  I mean,

10    What would you talk about if you talked to someone in Pale by telephone?

11       A.   I was working at the time on setting up the humanitarian society

12    or association, so that was the main topic of conversation.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Any other -- well, let's say general political

14    matters you discussed by telephone?

15       A.   I didn't talk about that because Mr. Vukic was the president of

16    the Municipal Board of the SDS in Banja Luka, so he conducted those

17    conversations.  I had come to town, and they didn't really have too much

18    confidence in me as a new person.  Some time needed to pass for them to be

19    able to trust me.  So I heard some things from third persons.  I didn't

20    hear anything directly from Pale.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you discuss with Pale at that time the

22    functioning of governmental institutions?

23       A.   No.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  When you were able to go there by road, how often did

25    you go to Pale in that period of time?  So once after you had arrived in

Page 19356

 1    Banja Luka.

 2       A.   Perhaps once in two months.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you then -- when you were in Pale, did you

 4    discuss any of the subjects or did you observe anything on the subjects I

 5    just mentioned, that is general political issues, functioning of

 6    governmental institutions?

 7       A.   [No verbal response]

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  I see you're nodding no.  That's not on the

 9    transcript.  Of course, the transcribers cannot translate that.

10            One final question:  You said that you didn't share the same

11    opinions either as Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Krajisnik.  Could you tell us in

12    what respect you disagreed with either Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Krajisnik.

13       A.   Well, I wouldn't call it disagreement, Your Honour.  For example,

14    when we were drafting a new statute, I, as any woman, would give a certain

15    number of remarks in relation to the statute, what I felt was not all

16    right, and what I felt should not be there.  Then there was some members

17    of the Main Board who said:  Well, she's just joking when she says that

18    she thinks that way.  That's what it was, just pragmatic questions, which

19    I personally as a woman understood differently and would have resolved in

20    a different way.  As far as Mr. Krajisnik is concerned, I was never too

21    close to him, nor was I in conflict with him.  Our relationship was

22    polite, tolerant.  I think that Mr. Krajisnik is a very serious person,

23    and if I were to say something about somebody -- if I said something, then

24    he would say that I was being too strict, and that's a case where we would

25    disagree.  And I said, well I see that one way, Mr. President, and you see

Page 19357

 1    it a different -- in a different way.  But there were no disagreements,

 2    arguments, or quarrels, as such.  This referred to associates.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said it was about pragmatic issues.  The

 4    difference of opinion never went beyond those pragmatic issues?

 5       A.   That's correct.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us one short example of the kind of

 7    pragmatic issues you have in mind on which you may have had a difference

 8    of opinion.

 9       A.   For example, when we were voting on the statute there were many

10    members of the Main Board who objected to giving so much authority to the

11    president of the party.  The competences were listed, and one-third was

12    proposed.  I openly, loudly said that I disagreed with that at the Main

13    Board.  Others also said, while we were talking amongst ourselves, the

14    same thing.  But then when they were supposed to vote, they raised their

15    hands saying that they accepted such a statute, while I said that I was

16    against that statute.  For example, Mr. Radic, who was a member of the

17    Main Board and the president of the city of Banja Luka, said:  Well,

18    Slobodanka has changed her mind.  I said:  No, I have no changed my mind.

19    I would not give so much power or competence to the president of the

20    party.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  So as a matter of fact, they changed their minds when

22    it came to voting.  Is that a correct understanding?

23       A.   That's correct, yes.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any opinion about why they changed their

25    minds and did not vote in accordance with what you discussed amongst

Page 19358

 1    yourselves?

 2       A.   No, I don't have any information about that or opinion.  But I

 3    think -- I don't want to be disrespectful, but you're all men here in the

 4    courtroom.  But in our case our men think differently than the women.  The

 5    women are a bit more doubtful and they also look at the consequences of

 6    something, whereas men react the way they think they should react.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, that's at least -- we can't change our

 8    gender, Mrs. Hrvacanin, neither can you.  These were my questions.

 9            Any -- it was a bit more, just a source of knowledge, of that kind

10    of meetings.

11            Yes.

12            MR. STEWART:  I thought Your Honour was going to put my question.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, as a matter of fact I -- of course we -- I

14    intended to do so.  If you put your question, I have already laid a

15    foundation as far as source of knowledge is concerned.  I do agree with

16    you that I did not put exactly your question.

17            Are you aware of Mr. -- then I have to --

18            MR. STEWART:  Your Honour --

19            JUDGE ORIE:  You do it.

20            MR. STEWART:  If I just put it, if I may, in exactly the terms in

21    which I put it originally?

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

23                          Further examination by Mr. Stewart:

24            MR. STEWART:

25       Q.   In 1992 did you have any knowledge yourself at any time of

Page 19359

 1    Mr. Krajisnik attending any meeting of an expanded or an extended

 2    Presidency of Republika Srpska?

 3       A.   No, I didn't have any knowledge, but that doesn't mean that

 4    somebody did not attend in their capacity, if this was permitted.  I was

 5    not a deputy, but I did attend Assembly sessions because Mr. Krajisnik

 6    allowed me to do that.

 7            MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9            This then concludes your testimony in this court, Mrs. Hrvacanin.

10    I'd like to thank you very much for being so patient to stay here for

11    quite some time and to come back today when we are not sitting yesterday

12    and answering all the questions of the parties and the Bench.  And I'd

13    like to wish you a safe trip home again.  Thank you very much.

14            Madam Usher, could you please escort Ms. Hrvacanin out of the

15    courtroom.

16                          [Trial Chamber confers]

17                          [The witness withdrew]

18            JUDGE ORIE:  And as I said before, the Chamber might prefer to

19    deal with the procedural issues not today anymore, not to convene for that

20    purpose only tomorrow, and deal with them most likely on Monday.

21            I think that the parties were invited to see, especially on the 65

22    ter summaries, whether there could be any exchange of views and what would

23    resolve the problems that have been expressed by the Prosecution.  The

24    Chamber would like to hear as soon as possible if this has resulted in any

25    constructive answer which could assist the Chamber in further dealing with

Page 19360

 1    the matter.

 2            Then we'll adjourn until next Monday, the 12th of December, at

 3    quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom, Courtroom III.

 4                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.08 p.m.,

 5                          to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of

 6                          December, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.