Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19437

1 Tuesday, 13 December 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, The Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Mr. Stewart, I received, just before entering the courtroom, and

11 I've meanwhile read, the verified portion of the transcript and

12 translation. Mr. Tieger, the verification Mr. Stewart asked for has been

13 made available and I have already received three or four lines.

14 Having said this, Mr. Micic, I would like to inform you -- to

15 remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

16 at the beginning of your testimony, and Mr. Stewart will now continue his

17 examination.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

19 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined in chief by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]

23 Q. Mr. Micic, when you entered the Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly as a

24 deputy in November, 1990, you were, as you've told the Trial Chamber, a

25 member of a party headed by Ante Markovic. Was there a leader or

Page 19438

1 president of that party for Bosnia and Herzegovina?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And who was that?

4 A. Professor Nenad Kecmanovic.

5 Q. And he was a professor where?

6 A. At the university in Sarajevo. He was the dean of Sarajevo

7 University.

8 Q. And when you left SRS party, as you described yesterday, can you

9 -- well, I'll give you the names here. The other three Serb deputies were

10 Mr. Kalinic, Mr. Dodic, and Mr. Peric; is that right?

11 A. Mr. Dodik, yes.

12 Q. Beg your pardon, Dodik. But it was Kalinic, Dodik, and Peric.

13 That's right, isn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. They all resigned as well; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What about Mr. Kecmanovic? Did he take any corresponding step at

18 that time or did he remain in the party?

19 A. He remained in the party for a while afterwards.

20 Q. Did that -- what sort of personal relations did you have with

21 Mr. Kecmanovic before you resigned from the party?

22 A. Nothing in particular, just the usual.

23 Q. Were there any problems between you and him?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did your resignation from the party create any problems or

Page 19439

1 difficulties between you and Mr. Kecmanovic?

2 A. No. We simply didn't see each other any more at these meetings.

3 Q. Was there -- I'm going to ask you about Tuzla now. Was there at

4 any time a Crisis Staff established by the SDS in Tuzla?

5 A. I don't think so.

6 Q. Who was Vojislav Erkic?

7 A. He was the president of SDS in a small settlement near Tuzla. It

8 was called Pozarnica. And he was actually employed in a construction

9 company in Tuzla.

10 Q. Did he take any particular steps in 1992 in the light of the

11 developing situation?

12 A. Yes, but after he left Tuzla. After they left Tuzla, he tried to

13 organise a Serbian municipality in Tuzla, in Lopare or Bijeljina. At

14 either one of those two places.

15 Q. When you say he tried to organise a Serbian municipality, what do

16 you mean by organising a municipality?

17 A. He had the ambition to organise that, but actually there was a

18 need to help the population that had left Tuzla, for them to accommodate

19 themselves, to start living life - or regular life - again; to settle

20 down, to help those people. It was more of a refugee committee rather

21 than the Municipal Assembly work.

22 Q. Did you have any participation in that committee?

23 A. They called me to these meetings a couple of times for me to try

24 to intervene at the Bijeljina municipality to get them some help, because

25 there were a thousand and one problems with respect to these people. So

Page 19440

1 there was pressure exerted on me to intervene at the Assembly to have that

2 declared as municipality, which was something that I did not accept at the

3 time.

4 Q. Did you --

5 JUDGE ORIE: May I seek just one clarification.

6 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: One of your previous answers reads - and you

8 explained that already to some extent - you said, "After they left Tuzla,

9 he tried to organise a Serbian municipality in Tuzla, in Lopare or

10 Bijeljina."

11 When you said "a Serbian municipality in Tuzla" and at the same

12 time you're talking about refugees, was it that he tried to organise a

13 community for those who had left Tuzla in Lopare or in Bijeljina? Is that

14 how I have to understand that? Because otherwise I do not know what you

15 meant.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: That's been clarified. Please proceed.

18 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Did you personally ever attend any meeting of any Crisis Staff in

20 1992?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And first -- first of all -- well, if there was more than one, say

23 so, but can you identify what Crisis Staff or Staffs whose meetings you

24 did attend.

25 A. Several Crisis Staffs, as far as the Tuzla municipality is

Page 19441

1 concerned. Actually, there was that only one in respect of people who had

2 left Tuzla, and they were trying to get these new arrivals to Bijeljina to

3 fit in, to provide accommodation for them, to make sure their children

4 were going to school; all of these things that have to do with meeting the

5 needs of those people. And they felt that they were not getting enough

6 understanding from the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina, and they wanted my

7 help so that I would intervene with the municipality so that they would

8 receive the help they needed. That was the topic of those meetings.

9 Q. Is this the same or something different from what you described a

10 few moments ago in relation to Mr. Vojislav Erkic?

11 A. It's the same. That's it.

12 Q. Did that Crisis Staff, as you've effectively labelled it there,

13 did that have any other function or purpose apart from the matters which

14 you've just referred to; accommodation, schooling, and so on?

15 A. I don't think it could have had because it didn't really have the

16 means or the conditions to do anything more or anything else.

17 Q. Did that body receive any instructions or directions of any sort

18 from outside the Tuzla region?

19 A. I don't know if they received any instructions. I tried to have

20 them -- to provide help within the structures of the Bijeljina municipal

21 office, because many of those people didn't have their papers. They were

22 not able to move around freely. These were things that I tried to resolve

23 in some way.

24 Q. Now, in an answer you gave just a few minutes ago, I asked you to

25 identify what Crisis Staff or Staffs there were whose meetings you

Page 19442

1 attended, and you started your answer, "Several Crisis Staffs as far as

2 the Tuzla municipality is concerned." Apart from the body that you've

3 just mentioned connected with Mr. Vojislav Erkic, can you tell the Trial

4 Chamber what other Crisis Staffs you attended?

5 A. There were no other Crisis Staffs there as far as the citizens

6 were concerned, but later some units were formed which were included in

7 the army of Republika Srpska. These were brigades, and these brigades had

8 their own logistical support. There were people there who secured

9 materiel and food for them. So I went to a couple of meetings about that

10 regarding the brigades. I even attended a meeting of that kind in

11 Belgrade at which assistance in food and clothing was sought, and so on.

12 Q. Did you -- in 1991 or 1992, did you know anything about any SDA

13 Crisis Staff in Tuzla?

14 A. I didn't know about the existence of a Crisis Staff, because by

15 that time, Tuzla - this was the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992 -

16 was completely in the hands of the SDA. So according to me, I didn't

17 think that there was any need for an SDA staff.

18 Q. Now, in May 1992, you had, you've already indicated, some advance

19 warning or information that there was going to be violence, and you've

20 already said that you eventually left Tuzla. When did you -- in May 1992,

21 when did you first leave Tuzla? I'm talking about either temporarily or

22 permanently. When did you first leave Tuzla?

23 A. In May 1992, there was quite intense training and preparations by

24 the Patriotic League in Tuzla. So through certain intelligence services

25 we knew what they were preparing, what they were doing, how far they had

Page 19443

1 come. So in May I left Tuzla with my family.

2 Q. May I just stop you there for one moment. Not stopping you from

3 answering the question, but I want you to clarify, please. When you say,

4 "Through certain intelligence services we knew what they were preparing,

5 what they were doing," and so on, who is "we" in that context?

6 A. At that time, there was still many people, also in the Muslim

7 Corps and the Croatian Corps, who still believed that there would be peace

8 and that sense would prevail. And we also received information from them,

9 and also even from some officials from the Secretariat of Internal

10 Affairs.

11 Q. You still haven't quite answered my question as to who was the

12 "we" who received the information.

13 A. Well, look. At that time I said that the alliance of reformist

14 forces and the SDP and the League of Communists were still there, present

15 in some way, and they worked. We had good mutual relations. I personally

16 was on good terms with the president of the municipality, with the chief

17 of the SUP, and so on; with all of them. So every day we met and we

18 talked about these events, what was happening, what could happen, what had

19 to be done, and so on.

20 Q. Then you were telling Their Honours that in May you left Tuzla

21 with your family. Are you able to put a specific date on when you left

22 with your family?

23 A. I left Tuzla on the 13th of May with my wife and one son. One of

24 my sons had already left a year before, for studies in the United States

25 of America. The other son was studying in Sarajevo, and he had come to

Page 19444

1 Tuzla some ten days before that, so my wife, my son, and I left. We left

2 Tuzla. However, I returned to Tuzla on the 14th of May.

3 Q. And so your wife and your son remain in Belgrade, is that right,

4 on the 13th?

5 A. Belgrade, yes.

6 Q. You returned to Tuzla on the 14th. Why did you return the

7 following day?

8 A. I had promised the then chief, or actually the secretary of the

9 Secretariat for Internal Affairs, Mehmed Bajric, that I would come to get

10 his family. So I came back to get his family. So I took his family, his

11 wife and two children, out of Tuzla on the 14th.

12 Q. Where did you take them to?

13 A. To Backa Palanka, to their relative's place. Later they came to

14 my place in Belgrade.

15 Q. Where is Backa Palanka?

16 A. In Serbia. Actually in Vojvodina.

17 Q. Did Mr. Bajric himself have any part in your departure, or any

18 active part in your departure from Tuzla with his family on the 14th of

19 May?

20 A. Yes. He came with his family. They didn't have a lot of luggage.

21 It wasn't a good idea to take a lot of luggage with you at the time

22 because then they would be able to tell that you were leaving town, and

23 that was not very popular, and there were many checkpoints all other the

24 place that were set up by the SDA.

25 Q. Could you clarify: When you say he came with his family, did

Page 19445

1 Mr. Bajric actually leave Tuzla and also go to Backa Palanka on that day?

2 A. No. No. He just took me in his car so that we could pass through

3 without being detained and without having to show my ID. Once we left

4 town, he returned back to town while I went with them to Serbia.

5 Q. What -- on that day, then, on the 14th, from what you'd been

6 hearing, what was your expectation as to what was about to break out by

7 way of violence in Tuzla?

8 A. My personal opinion is that it was because it was so many armed

9 people who were not people with high moral qualities. They were known

10 about town as bad people, and I expected that this would last for two or

11 three days, five days, and then that some kind of authority would be set

12 up. It didn't matter whose or what kind, but I thought that any kind of

13 authority would bring in some sort of order. That is why I believed that

14 we would return after four or five days, because the very fact that my

15 son, my wife and I left with cars, in our shirt sleeves, we didn't bring

16 anything with us. We expected to return in two or three days, so we were

17 thinking we were just going to be out of town until things settled down.

18 Q. Did it appear to you that Mr. Bajric shared your expectation that

19 conditions would be suitable for return to Tuzla within a few days?

20 A. I thought so.

21 Q. So far as you knew from whatever sources you had, who were you

22 expecting to attack whom, and what -- between whom did you expect conflict

23 to occur in mid-May 1992 in Tuzla?

24 A. The corps command had already moved out from Tuzla. Only some of

25 the troops remained in the Tuzla barracks. In the Tuzla barracks, there

Page 19446

1 was also a depot of weapons and equipment for the entire barracks, but

2 also this depot housed weapons of the Territorial Defence.

3 According to our information, the TO requested from the army to

4 hand over their weapons. They refused to do so. They wanted to leave the

5 barracks first and then leave the arms behind. I think that they believed

6 the arms would be turned against them, the JNA, that was. Since there was

7 no agreement on that, we had information that the garrison would be

8 attacked and that the attack would last two or three days. We did not

9 expect that there would be a war that would last four years.

10 Q. Now, you said in an answer a few moments ago that you expected

11 that the -- and here I'm paraphrasing or summarising -- the conflict would

12 last for two or three days, five days, and then some type of authority

13 would be set up. That's at page 9, lines 9 to 12 or 13.

14 What -- when you say some type of authority would be set up, what

15 did you have in mind? What authority?

16 A. The structures that would remain in town. I had in mind the SDA

17 authority. I did expect them to set up their authority, but I did not

18 expect that it would be so strict. I believed they would restore order in

19 the town, that the barricades would be removed and there would be normal

20 life after that.

21 Q. Was some -- at that time when you took your family out of Tuzla

22 and Mr. Bajric's family out of Tuzla as you describe, had any sort of

23 deadline been set in Tuzla between the different communities?

24 A. The deadline was never discussed or negotiated. The corps command

25 was General Nedeljkovic, and he was the one who was involved in

Page 19447

1 discussions. I believe that he attended a meeting that I didn't attend.

2 An agreement was signed there and a guarantee was given to the JNA to

3 leave Tuzla with the rest of the troops and arms. All the terms had been

4 agreed on; the deadline, the procedure and everything.

5 Q. And the agreement, from what you knew, agreement was signed by

6 whom?

7 A. The agreement was signed by General Nedeljkovic, his chief of

8 security, Ms. Sulovic, whom I mentioned before; and on behalf of the

9 municipality of Tuzla, all the officials signed: The president of the

10 municipality, the president of the executive board, the chief of the TO of

11 Tuzla, and the chief of the Secretariat of the Interior of the region of

12 Tuzla and of the municipality of Tuzla, I believe.

13 Q. Do you know if Mr. Bajric signed the agreement?

14 A. I think so.

15 Q. Was -- did you become aware of any results that these events in

16 mid-May had as far as Serb houses were concerned?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. We're talking about -- I was talking about Tuzla. I should make

19 it clear. What results did you become aware of?

20 A. Immediately after the 15th of May, after this massacre of the

21 convoy that was leaving the town, it was a well-prepared attack. Even the

22 Tuzla television made a footage of that, and I believe that the Tribunal

23 has it at its disposal. Immediately after, that there was the plunder of

24 Serb houses and the apartments were broken into. At that time there were

25 still telephone lines working with Tuzla. We could talk to some people in

Page 19448

1 Tuzla on a daily basis. So I know that my flat had been broken into. The

2 young people belonging to paramilitary formations came into the apartment

3 because they had allegedly seen my son at the window, shooting from a

4 sniper, but this was the same son that had been in the States for a year.

5 But this was not typical only of my apartment. This was the case in 90

6 per cent of the apartments.

7 Q. At the time when they had allegedly seen your son at the window,

8 you said it was the same son who had been in the United States for a year,

9 where was your other son at that point in time?

10 A. My other son was a student in Sarajevo. He came back early, and

11 on the 13th we moved out together. We had three new cars and we were sure

12 that either the army or the paramilitaries would seize those cars. That's

13 why we wanted to take those cars out and maybe return with the smallest

14 car, the Golf. If they were to take anything, at least they would not

15 have taken our BMW and the Citroen car. They would have taken the Golf.

16 Q. Mr. Micic, at the time it was alleged that your son had been seen

17 shooting from the window, was your -- was your son, the one who was not in

18 the United States, was your other son still in Tuzla or was he already in

19 Belgrade?

20 A. Belgrade. But they didn't mention his name. They mentioned the

21 name of my son who was in America.

22 Q. And what is his name?

23 A. The one who is in Belgrade is Nenad, and the one in America is

24 Mladen. But it's -- I don't think that the name mattered to them, whether

25 it was just a guesswork. I don't know whether they knew my son's name or

Page 19449

1 not. They just used one of their names as an excuse to break into the

2 apartment. They did not look for any sniper shooters or sharp-shooters.

3 They just wanted to plunder my apartment.

4 Q. From where or whom did you get the news that your apartment had

5 been broken into?

6 A. A Muslim family, the Solkanovici, who resided on the same floor as

7 I did. They raised my sons because both me and my wife worked.

8 Mrs. Solkanovic did not work so we hired her as our helper with our

9 children. She was our private helper, helping us to raise our sons. We

10 were on very good terms with them. They called me and told me. When

11 those people came, the Solkanovics asked them what they wanted and they

12 shoved them away. They said that they saw Mladen shooting from a window

13 and that's why they broke into the apartment.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Micic, Judge Hanoteau has a question for you.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] You're talking about the month of

16 May, and I would like to know how the JNA was made up. What was the JNA

17 -- what did the JNA look like in Tuzla? Because you stated that military

18 forces had -- were less numerous than before. Can you please give us some

19 explanation about that particular point.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even before that all the troops of

21 Muslim and Croat ethnicity had been withdrawn from the army. However, the

22 officers remained longer, until the date when Bosnia and Herzegovina was

23 recognised by the international community, and then they left the

24 military. Until then, they were members of the corps. I believe that

25 General Sadic, who was a colonel at the time, was a very highly ranking

Page 19450

1 officer in the corps. And he was not the only one. Later on, he became

2 the commander of the Tuzla Corps, but the Muslim Tuzla Corps.

3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] In May, if we look at that corps,

4 how many men was it made up of in the barracks you mentioned? Can you

5 give us an approximate figure?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Approximately 300 to 400 people. I

7 don't think that there were more. There may have been 30 to 50 active

8 soldiers. The rest were reservists who were helping with the loading of

9 the equipment and ammunition. I don't think that there were many active

10 soldiers. Maybe not more than 50. When I say "active soldiers," I'm

11 referring to the young recruits who were around 18.

12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And on the 13th or the 14th of

13 May, were there still 50 soldiers there or had their number gone down?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that they were all there

15 and that from then on there was no opportunity for them to leave. After

16 the 5th or 10th May there was no opportunity for them to leave without an

17 organised escort and a permit to leave.

18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry, but I'm not

19 satisfied with your answer. I'd like to know how many combatants, how

20 many men there were in those barracks in April, for example, and I'd like

21 to know, if there was indeed a reduction in the number of combatants, I'd

22 like to know how many combatants there were in the barracks on the 12th or

23 13th of May.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have the exact data about

25 the composition of units. However, according to my estimate, there could

Page 19451

1 not have been more than 300 to 350 people. Maybe 400 tops, but that is at

2 the absolute maximum.

3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And on the 12th of May this

4 number had been reduced to about 50 soldiers, so the number went down from

5 300 to about 50.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Throughout the month of May, from

7 the 1st May onwards, there were not more than 300 to 400 people in the

8 barracks. Their number was a -- was constant. They -- it didn't

9 increase, it didn't diminish until the 15th of May when they agreed to

10 leave. And that is when their number dropped, when they decided to flee,

11 but not earlier than that. There were some brigades, I don't know which

12 one -- which ones were stationed in Tuzla, but when the corps left the

13 barracks, those brigades left with those as well. All those accompanying

14 the corps and the staff of the corps left at the same time. The command

15 of the airport remained, and the complete staff of the airport remained

16 until the 17th or the 18th of May. They left maybe three or four days

17 after the attack on -- on the convoy.

18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] As for the attack on the convoy,

19 I'd like you to explain exactly what happened. You were not an eyewitness

20 to the attack yourself.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So what do you know about the

23 attack? How can you relate this event to us?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know almost everything about that

25 event. I also saw the TV footage of the entire incident. The entire

Page 19452

1 incident was recorded from one of the skyscrapers by a TV Tuzla crew. I

2 believe that Selim Beslagic also provided comment to that footage, and I

3 believe that the Tribunal has that footage at its disposal.

4 It had been agreed that the rest of the JNA troops, with the

5 equipment and weapons, would leave Tuzla peacefully. The route was agreed

6 on, as well as the timing of their departure. As far as I know, they were

7 to leave about 1.00 in the afternoon. This was prevented. Then they were

8 supposed to leave at 2.00; this didn't happen; and then I believe that

9 they left around 4.30 in the afternoon. And when they reached a curve

10 towards Majevica and Bijeljina, a fire was opened on the convoy. And the

11 convoy consisted of people, explosives, and weapons, and this was insane.

12 All the tarpaulins were down, and you could see that well on the footage.

13 At the head of the convoy there was the president some sort of

14 committee for the national security of Tuzla or the Crisis Staff, whatever

15 you want to call it. We called it differently at the time. His name was

16 Mohamed Brkic [phoen], who had previously been the chief of the regional

17 SUP. I believe that Mehmed Bajric was also there, and they were some sort

18 of a guarantee that the convoy would leave the town safely. They were at

19 the head of the convoy. However, when the convoy reached the mid-point,

20 there was shooting from all sides and the lorries started flying into the

21 air because the explosives had been blown up.

22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] It was -- I heard in the

23 interpretation that there was fire opened from all sides. Are you saying

24 that there was fire from both sides or from everywhere?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the passage

Page 19453

1 between the residential blocks, and there was shooting from both sides of

2 the residential blocks. Those were machine-gun nests on the buildings

3 themselves, and fire came from both sides.

4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] What is the number of victims?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the official data of

6 the municipality of Tuzla, there was some 15, 16. According to my

7 information that I obtained from the medical centre, there were 204.

8 According to some other information, there was some 168 victims, or maybe

9 186, I'm not sure.

10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] What was the impact of this

11 incident?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The impact was grave. The town was

13 blocked. After that, you couldn't leave it. It was completely closed and

14 there was a general state of chaos. I believe that the power was taken

15 over by some unauthorised groups of people, groups of plunderers who just

16 started doing whatever they did afterwards.

17 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.


19 Q. Who was it who carried out that attack on the convoy?

20 A. The Patriotic League, which had already stationed themselves in

21 Tuzla. They had had some preparations for that around Tuzla. At the

22 beginning, they bore the insignia of the town of Tuzla instead of the

23 customary insignia that the Patriotic League members had in other places.

24 According to my subsequent information, this was carried out on the order

25 of some of my colleagues from the party.

Page 19454

1 Q. From which party?

2 A. The reformists and our coalition partner; the SDP.

3 Q. You mentioned in the course of one of those answers, you said that

4 you believed the Tribunal had the television footage of that incident.

5 Was that an assumption or speculation or do you know specifically

6 something to indicate that the Tribunal has this footage?

7 A. After the war, an expert analysis of the events that had taken

8 place in Tuzla was carried out, and this was done by the federal

9 prosecutor's office in Belgrade. They collected a lot of material about

10 all that. They spoke to a number of survivors who had been in the convoy,

11 and I saw that material which included the video footage of the convoy and

12 the attack. According to the comment of the then president of the

13 municipality, Selim Beslagic, who had commented upon the incident and the

14 attack and the footage that had been taken from the top of one of the

15 high-rise buildings, and as far as I know, all that has been sent to the

16 Tribunal.

17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, perhaps I could ask if the -- if the

18 Prosecution could -- well, check, first of all. If they tell us, "Yes, we

19 did supply that to you, the Defence, at such-and-such a time," we'll

20 immediately have a look for it in our files. Otherwise, I wonder if the

21 Prosecution, alternatively, would check to see whether this is in fact in

22 the possession of the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I don't have any idea whether we

25 supplied it. I don't know why we would have, under these circumstances.

Page 19455

1 If there's a specific request for it, I have no objection to making that

2 inquiry.


4 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much. There is a specific request.

5 Your Honour, I was only referring to the possibility that they had already

6 supplied it to us, not to suggest that was likely but to enable the

7 Prosecution to say, "We've already given it to you." That's an option

8 open to them if that's what information is produced.

9 Thank you. I make that request, and I hear Mr. Tieger's response.

10 The -- which is helpful. Thank you.

11 Q. Mr. Micic, during the period April 1992 up to the time that you

12 left for Belgrade again on the 14th of May, 1992, did you go to Pale?

13 A. Not during the month of April and May.

14 Q. There was -- there was a -- we know, a session of the Republika

15 Srpska Assembly in Banja Luka on the 12th of May, 1992. Did you attend

16 that session?

17 A. No. It was at the moment when there were intense talks and

18 preparations for the departure of the JNA from Tuzla, and we expected this

19 attack. So I could not attend any meetings of the Assembly.

20 Q. Can you say when you next went to Pale?

21 A. At a subsequent -- subsequent session, either in June or July. I

22 can't remember exactly.

23 Q. You're talking about subsequent sessions of the Assembly, are you?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Well, in fact I think your answer referred to session in the

Page 19456

1 singular, but that can be checked.

2 Q. Did you from --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. From then onwards in 1992, did you -- I'm talking about the second

5 half of 1992. Did you attend Republika Srpska Assembly sessions with

6 regularity?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you remain throughout that period living and based in

9 Belgrade?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So you would travel down from Belgrade to wherever the Assembly

12 session was taking place; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you normally stay overnight wherever the Assembly session

15 was being held?

16 A. Most of the time.

17 Q. Now, you -- you have a brother. You have just one brother, do

18 you, Mr. Micic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what's his name?

21 A. Dragan Micic.

22 Q. And during the -- during 1991 and 1992, was your brother living

23 and based in Bijeljina?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was he a member of any political party?

Page 19457

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Which one?

3 A. The SDS.

4 Q. Did he have any official position in the SDS in Bijeljina?

5 A. He was a member of the main Municipal Board of Bijeljina.

6 Q. Was he a deputy in the Republika Srpska Assembly?

7 A. He was.

8 Q. And did he normally attend sessions of the Assembly?

9 A. More often than I did.

10 Q. Did you obtain any information from your brother about the

11 existence of a Crisis Staff in Bijeljina?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What did you learn from your brother about a Crisis Staff?

14 A. I think in late March or early April there was an armed conflict

15 in Bijeljina between an armed group which called itself the Handzar

16 Divizija, the Handzar Division, and Arkan's unit, which was located on the

17 outskirts of the town of Bijeljina. I don't know many details because at

18 the time I was in the Far East, so that all I know is what I was told.

19 This lasted two or three days, and after that a Crisis Staff or some body

20 was formed that took over administration of the municipality of Bijeljina

21 and did things on its own and stabilised the situation in the town.

22 As far as the Crisis Staff and him personally, I've already said

23 that I had a private company and I happened to have a train of oil

24 derivatives that I was importing through Energoinvest Sarajevo, and this

25 Crisis Staff actually took that. It was about 550 tonnes of diesel fuel

Page 19458

1 and petrol. According to the decision of the Crisis Staff, this was

2 confiscated and distributed.

3 Q. This was a Serb Crisis Staff; correct?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Was your brother a member of that Crisis Staff?

6 A. Yes, I think that he was.

7 Q. What was the -- was it the Handzar Division? What was that?

8 A. Well, that already has a historical significance. From what I

9 know about it, already during World War II the Jerusalem Mufti managed to

10 form in Sarajevo a brigade which was representing the Muslim people at the

11 time, so that the Muslim people would be represented as a people with its

12 own interest. So somebody formed the Handzar Division, which had its

13 first action in Bijeljina.

14 And then recalling the historical events, then there was this

15 other Handzar Division formed in Bijeljina, but this is something I can't

16 really tell you much about because I wasn't living in Bijeljina at the

17 time and the actual incidents occurred when I was in the Far East.

18 Q. It was a Muslim body, the Handzar Division; correct?

19 A. Yes, exclusively.

20 Q. From what you heard of what was happening in Bijeljina, was there

21 any other specific individual who was actively involved with Arkan in the

22 conflict in Bijeljina?

23 A. Arkan immediately formed a formation of his own in Bijeljina - I

24 don't know what size - and he appointed Ljubisa Savic, called Mauzer, as

25 its commander.

Page 19459

1 Q. Did you at any time in 1992 receive any communication from your

2 brother which was connected with Mauzer?

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, before the witness proceeds.


5 MR. TIEGER: A brief objection. It's simply this: I gather that

6 the information the witness is providing is not from his personal

7 observation but through information he received from others. I've begun

8 to lose the thread of where that information has come from. Presumably a

9 great deal from his brother but I think there should be a greater effort

10 to make clear the provenance of that information. It may lead to

11 objections, it may not, under various circumstances.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although the last question was --

13 MR. TIEGER: I was on my feet before that, yes. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, we are facing some technical

15 problems in the broadcast of this hearing and therefore I was requested to

16 have an early break so that the matter could be fixed. Therefore, we'll

17 have a break now for half an hour, until ten minutes to four.

18 --- Recess taken at 3.20 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 3.58 p.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.

21 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Micic, I had asked you, and I'll repeat the question

23 since we've had a break, did you at any time in 1992 receive any

24 communication from your brother which was connected with Mauzer?

25 A. Yes.

Page 19460

1 Q. And first of all, when was that?

2 A. Immediately on my return from that trip. I think it was maybe on

3 the 5th of May or something. No, excuse me. On the 5th of April. I

4 received information that these goods had been confiscated from me.

5 Q. What was the connection with Mauzer?

6 A. He did it.

7 Q. Did you subsequently receive any other communication from your

8 brother which related to Mauzer?

9 A. Yes. He told me that he was with them in this SDS committee, and

10 that was when Arkan promoted some officer and gave him some soldiers to do

11 what he wanted with, and that's when he became the master of Bijeljina.

12 Q. Please make it clear: When who became the master of Bijeljina?

13 A. Mauzer.

14 Q. Was there ever any suggestion in April 1992 that you should go to

15 Bijeljina?

16 A. Yes, there was, with certain limitations and warnings that I could

17 be killed.

18 Q. And from whom did such warnings come?

19 A. I got warnings from my brother that allegedly Mauzer was looking

20 for me to kill me, that I was allegedly the one who had ruined the Serbs

21 in Tuzla and that this was my fault.

22 Q. And was it indicated specifically why you had allegedly ruined the

23 Serbs in Tuzla?

24 A. That I had led the Serbs astray, that they joined this other party

25 instead of joining the SDS. And had they all joined the SDS, the

Page 19461

1 situation would have been different; that I had created this situation, in

2 a way. Had they all joined the SDS, the situation would have been

3 different.

4 Q. Did it appear from these warnings from your brother whether your

5 brother regarded them as something to be taken seriously?

6 A. Yes, of course.

7 Q. In order to avoid any ambiguity, did your brother regard them as

8 something to be taken seriously?

9 A. Yes, he did take them seriously. Actually, he concealed that from

10 me, and he tried to get me not to come. And then when I did come to

11 Tuzla, actually he took me to all of these locations where he knew they

12 were not. I was actually seeking to have a meeting with them.

13 Q. When you say, "When I did come to Tuzla ..." was that a slip? Did

14 you mean Tuzla or did you mean Bijeljina?

15 A. Excuse me. Excuse me. I meant Bijeljina. I'm sorry.

16 Q. And when did you go to Bijeljina?

17 A. I went to Bijeljina in mid-April, and I was passing through

18 Bijeljina in that period on my way to Tuzla and back from Tuzla. I would

19 be going through Bijeljina.

20 The serious threats were made after the 15th of May, however. I

21 didn't even know about those threats in April. Sometime on the 5th I

22 landed at Surcin and my son came to pick me up with the car, and I asked

23 him not to come to meet me from Sarajevo. I told him not to come to Tuzla

24 and that I would take a rental car and go to Tuzla. However, he didn't

25 listen to me. He came to Tuzla earlier, and then he went to Belgrade

Page 19462

1 earlier. He actually wanted to have some time to go out in Belgrade. And

2 I think then that on the 5th of April he returned me to Tuzla, and then he

3 could no longer go back to Sarajevo. All the trouble had started already

4 there, and he was not able to go back. So then on the 13th of May, he

5 left Tuzla together with my wife and me.

6 Q. Now, turning again to the -- to the Serb Assembly that became the

7 Republika Srpska Assembly, when you were present at Assembly sessions, did

8 it ever concern itself with operational aspects of the VRS or the other

9 security forces of Republika Srpska?

10 A. No, never.

11 Q. Were you ever aware of -- of any involvement by Mr. Krajisnik in

12 any operational aspects of the army or other security or armed forces of

13 Republika Srpska?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you aware in 1992 of any Assembly decisions - I'm talking

16 about the Assembly of -- the Serb Assembly, Republika Srpska Assembly - of

17 any Assembly decisions which were contravened or not followed or

18 implemented by the SDS leadership?

19 A. No. I don't know if there were such decisions. There were some

20 minor decisions relating purely to the legal procedure relating to the

21 implementation of decisions at the municipality. If something was not

22 perhaps so easy to implement, perhaps there were reactions to that, but I

23 don't know if there was anything more significant.

24 Q. Did you know Mr. Djeric, the Prime Minister?

25 A. Yes, yes. Just as the Prime Minister but not in any other way.

Page 19463

1 Q. Were you aware of any directions or instructions ever given by

2 Mr. Krajisnik to Mr. Djeric?

3 A. I don't think that there was anything like that.

4 Q. Were you aware at any time of Mr. Krajisnik giving any

5 instructions or directions to presidents -- SDS presidents of

6 municipalities?

7 A. I don't think that there were any directives like that either, and

8 I think that that was not within his competencies.

9 Q. Did Mr. Krajisnik, as president of the Assembly, did he have

10 influence over the deputies in the Serb Assembly?

11 A. Not as far as I was concerned. He didn't have any influence over

12 me, but I don't think that he had any influence over any other deputies

13 either.

14 Q. What was Mr. Krajisnik's standing or reputation among the Serb

15 people in Bosnia generally?

16 A. Quite considerable.

17 Q. And what -- are you able to say what the reasons for that were?

18 A. Mr. Krajisnik had positive charisma because he was consistent and

19 followed laws and wanted to do whatever he was doing properly, with a high

20 degree of quality. He wasn't rushed in the statements that he was making.

21 He was always moderate and considerate, and people liked him and they

22 considered him to be a very serious man.

23 Q. Were you in a position to observe how far Dr. Karadzic had

24 influence over Mr. Krajisnik or Mr. Krajisnik had influence over

25 Dr. Karadzic?

Page 19464

1 A. My private opinion about that is that Dr. Karadzic is somebody who

2 is a very pleasant collocutor. He would listen to whatever you had to

3 say, but in the end he would do whatever he wanted to do.

4 As far as Mr. Krajisnik is concerned, I think that he was more

5 pragmatic, much more realistic in his views, and in all the contacts I had

6 with him, he was like that.

7 Q. Were you able to observe and form an opinion of General Mladic's

8 attitude towards Mr. Krajisnik?

9 A. General Mladic is an officer, a person of war, a man from that

10 profession who did that job professionally. He was always dissatisfied

11 with the way he was treated, with the attitude of the Assembly towards the

12 army, and he often requested that a state of war be declared, and probably

13 that would allow him more freedom in such conditions and would give him

14 more rights and would give him many more ways to achieve whatever it was

15 that he wanted to achieve.

16 Q. And what dissatisfaction did General Mladic appear to have with

17 the way he was treated?

18 A. As I said, he was always asking the Assembly to vote on laws which

19 would grant more authority and power to the army and would give more power

20 to the army leadership than was provided for under the laws and the

21 constitution. As I said, he wanted to have the state of war declared,

22 which implied the abolition of all the civilian authorities, and it meant

23 that the whole power would be placed in the hands of the army.

24 Q. Were you aware of any consultation of Mr. Krajisnik and General

25 Mladic?

Page 19465

1 A. I don't know whether you could call that a consultation.

2 Sometimes they drank coffee together. If that was a consultation, then,

3 yes, but I don't think that that was a consultation.

4 Q. Were you personally aware of any instructions or directions being

5 given by Mr. Krajisnik to General Mladic?

6 A. I've said that it was very difficult to give any instructions to

7 General Mladic, if not impossible. So I don't think that Mr. Krajisnik

8 even tried to do any such thing.

9 Q. Was it difficult or impossible for Dr. Karadzic to give

10 instructions to General Mladic?

11 A. Yes, for a while. He even asked for him to be replaced.

12 Q. On what grounds?

13 A. Disobedience, disagreements. He did not obey the orders that he

14 received from the Presidency. He made his own decisions, I suppose. I

15 don't know any specific reasons.

16 Q. Who was asked by Dr. Karadzic for the replacement of General

17 Mladic?

18 A. Actually, that situation never happened. I believe that they

19 ended up with a rebellion of generals on their hands. Some letters with

20 signatures pledging loyalty to General Mladic arrived. I really don't

21 know who it was who did that.

22 Q. What you referred to as rebellion --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

24 MR. TIEGER: I'm going to take page from my learned friend's book

25 and suggest that it might be helpful to place some of these questions in a

Page 19466

1 time context.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One learns from another.

3 MR. STEWART: That was -- well, and how flattering it is, Your

4 Honour. I was actually -- that was the very next thing I was going to do,

5 Mr. Tieger will be reassured.

6 Q. The -- what you referred to as a rebellion of the generals, when

7 did that occur?

8 A. In 1993 or maybe even 1994, thereabouts.

9 Q. Were you ever aware of any support being given by Mr. Krajisnik

10 for the activities of Arkan?

11 A. No. As far as I know, the only support that Arkan enjoyed was

12 from Mrs. Plavsic.

13 Q. You referred a few minutes ago from -- to General Mladic not

14 obeying orders that he received from the Presidency. In 1992 -- let's --

15 I'll date this more specifically. In June and July 1992, from your

16 observations, who constituted the Presidency of Republika Srpska?

17 A. The official members of the Presidency were Mrs. Plavsic and

18 Professor Koljevic, because they had been members of the BH Presidency in

19 Sarajevo, and they had the legitimacy and -- to continue performing those

20 duties in Republika Srpska.

21 Q. In the period the first half of 1992, is it possible to say who

22 was the most powerful person in the Republika Srpska, or Serb Republic,

23 Republika Srpska?

24 A. I don't know in what sense. The military sense, the civilian

25 sense, in a general sense?

Page 19467

1 Q. Well, first of all, my question is: Is it possible to say who

2 overall was the most powerful person in the Serb Republic, Republika

3 Srpska?

4 A. In global terms, in the entire territory of Republika Srpska, the

5 highest authority was Dr. Radovan Karadzic. However, the petty power

6 wielders in the municipalities had the most power because they did not

7 obey anybody, and that is why it's very difficult to say who had the most

8 power. If the alleged most powerful person could not issue any orders to

9 the people in the municipalities, then it's very difficult to talk about

10 the supreme power of any one person.

11 MR. STEWART: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

13 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

14 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. Let me say I can begin today but

15 I'm going to need a break for couple of reasons. I can articulate them

16 but they include both logistical reasons; secondly, there were matters

17 touched upon that were not specifically addressed in the 65 ter summary;

18 and third, a number of the matters raised anticipated by the 65 ter have

19 either been touched on briefly or not at all, and I need to look a little

20 bit more carefully at the transcript.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's be very practical. Would it assist you to have

22 a break now and then would you be better able then to continue, or would

23 you say it makes no difference, I can start now, go as far as I can go and

24 have an early finish today? What would you prefer? Of course, the

25 Chamber would very much like to use the court time as good as possible.

Page 19468

1 MR. TIEGER: I appreciate that, Your Honour. I think -- I mean,

2 I'll do my best with a break at this point, which I think would be

3 preferable. I think we're going to stay within -- given the difference

4 between the earlier estimates of time and where we find ourselves now, I

5 think we'll be fine for the week, but I'll do my best to proceed after the

6 break, and I'll let the Court know how that's shaping up.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If we would have a break now, it's now 20 minutes

8 past four, if we would have a break of half an hour, we would restart at

9 ten minutes to five. Then we could not continue until 7.00 because that's

10 too long as far as the technical aspects is concerned. If we would start

11 now, start for the first 20 minutes, then have a half-hour break, then it

12 would be quarter past five and then at least would not be obstructed by

13 technical reasons not to continue until 7.00. I'm not saying -- would

14 that be a solution, that we start now, have 20 minutes? Would you have a

15 programme of questions for the first 20 minutes and then have a break and

16 see where we come today? Because otherwise it's -- it will be the

17 technical aspects that would prevent us anyhow from continuing. It might

18 be the Judges have some questions in between that would bring us to 7.00.

19 MR. TIEGER: Well, if I'm hearing the Court correctly, the Chamber

20 would prefer the latter approach.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The suggestion would be that we start and at a

22 quarter to five have the first break. So that would require you to fill

23 the first 20 minutes. If you say it's impossible, we're not going to ask

24 the impossible from you, but --

25 MR. TIEGER: If the Court would give me two minutes.

Page 19469

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger, if that would assist you, if you

2 need to consult yesterday's transcript, I have both today and yesterday

3 open, so if there's any, I would -- as a matter of fact, I would offer the

4 same to the Defence, that if it's a matter of quoting and --

5 MR. TIEGER: No. I appreciate that, Your Honour. And as the

6 Court can see, I'm setting up for the purpose of proceeding.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.

8 Mr. Micic, you will now be -- we will at least make a start with

9 the cross-examination by Mr. Tieger, who is counsel for the Prosecution.

10 MR. TIEGER: Among the logistical matters, Your Honour, will be

11 the distribution of certain materials. Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Tieger:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Micic.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. Mr. Micic, you were asked earlier about the document known as --

17 or that has been called variously Variant A and B, among other things,

18 asked whether you'd ever heard of it, and you said you had not. Do you

19 know of that document or did you know of that document previously by the

20 name The Instructions Under Emergency Conditions of December 19, 1991, or

21 anything to that effect?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And it's -- just to make it clear, the question was not

24 specifically whether you heard about it at the time it was issued in

25 December of 1991 or shortly thereafter, but whether you had heard about it

Page 19470

1 before coming to court to give testimony.

2 A. As far as I know, this was never voted on, and as far as I know,

3 this was never an item on the Assembly agenda. The first time I heard of

4 that was two days ago when I came here.

5 Q. This Court has had an opportunity to hear evidence about

6 references to Variant A and B at, among other things, different Assembly

7 sessions, including, Mr. Micic, the 46th session of the Bosnian Serb

8 Assembly. That was held on the 9th through the 11th and 23rd of November,

9 1994. You've told us that you regularly attended the sessions of the

10 Bosnian Serb Assembly after May of 1992, and in fact, a review of the

11 records of the session held -- 46th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly,

12 held in November of 1994, reveals that you were present.

13 Do you now -- and let me tell you, among other things, what was

14 said at that session. During that session --

15 JUDGE ORIE: You did not invite the witness to look at any

16 document. Could I ask you to look at documents when you're invited to do

17 so and to refrain from doing it if you're not invited to do it.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


20 Q. Well, first of all, Mr. Micic, to confirm your attendance at that

21 session, if I could ask you to look quickly at tab 11. Tab 11 contains,

22 as you'll see in a moment, certain excerpts from that session. You will

23 see your name recorded there in a couple of places. I'm not going to ask

24 you questions at this moment about those particular passages. I just want

25 you to confirm that you're the Momcilo Micic referred to in those

Page 19471

1 passages.

2 A. Yes, I am.

3 Q. Now, Dr. Karadzic was also present at that session, and he also

4 spoke, and we've had the opportunity to look at his comments on a number

5 of occasions before, but the essence of what he said was when he reminded

6 the assembled delegates of what it was like before the war, spoke about

7 what it was like in municipalities where the Serbs were in a majority and

8 where they were in a minority, and then asked the delegates, "Do you

9 remember instructions A and instructions B," and went on to talk about

10 having Crisis Staffs which clearly knew that they were in power,

11 mentioning that they might have made mistakes but they were the

12 authorities.

13 Thinking back to that session and the comments made by

14 Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Micic, does that refresh your recollection about ever

15 having heard about the document known as Variant A and B before coming to

16 court or before coming to The Hague a couple of days ago?

17 A. No. No. I'm not aware of that. Radovan Karadzic may have said

18 it at that Assembly meeting, but I don't know anything about any plan. If

19 he had said it, maybe his words were addressed to somebody else, to be

20 appreciated by somebody else. At that time I was a member of an

21 opposition party, and I didn't hear or understand any of it.

22 Q. I take it that you were also present, based on what you've told us

23 before, at the 50th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, held in April of

24 1995 in Sanski Most. Do you recall that one?

25 A. I'm not sure I was there. I may have been, but I'm not sure. I

Page 19472

1 even think that I wasn't.

2 Q. Okay. And any particular reason why you're able to recall that

3 you were not present at that session?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Well, that's another occasion on which Dr. Karadzic made

6 reference, explicit reference, to the A and B instructions, but if you're

7 not sure you were there, I won't cite that passage for you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, before we continue, the tab 11, 46th

9 Assembly session on your list does not bear any exhibit number.

10 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Is that a mistake or should we assign a number to it?

12 MR. TIEGER: My suggestion would be -- yes, I think we probably

13 should assign a number at this point.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's do it, and you check --

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: These are excerpts, so the number will then be

17 assigned to excerpts of the 46th Assembly session.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P1020, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


22 Q. Mr. Micic, earlier today you spoke about the -- what I think you

23 referred to as kind of a refugee committee that was set up by persons who

24 had left Tuzla and gone to Bijeljina for the purpose of organising

25 assistance to others who had left -- other Serbs who had left Tuzla. Did

Page 19473

1 I get that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If -- based on your description, I did not understand that to be a

4 kind of formal government structure established pursuant to orders of some

5 higher body for the purpose of engaging in the governance of the

6 municipality as an alternative to the joint government that had been

7 elected in November of 1990. It wasn't that kind of body, if I understood

8 you correctly.

9 A. You've understood me correctly.

10 Q. Now, the Variant A and B document provides for the establishment

11 of Serbian municipalities throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina as an

12 alternate structure to the governments, joint governments, that were

13 elected in November of 1990. Was such a body, such a Serbian municipality

14 established in Tuzla in the first few months of 1992?

15 A. I'm not aware of it. I don't think it existed. If it had

16 existed, it would have already left Tuzla as such. There wouldn't have

17 been any pressure on me in the Assembly to fight for the declaration of

18 the Serbian municipality of Tuzla. It would have had some sort of

19 legitimacy if it had been elected, if it had been set up.

20 Q. No, I didn't -- I wasn't talking about an elected body at open

21 elections. I was referring to a body that was set up pursuant to the

22 instructions of 19 December 1991 to serve as an alternative body to the

23 joint government, an alternative Serb body. But I think you've, in any

24 event, answered my question. And in that respect, let me ask you to look

25 at another document, and that's found at tab 17.

Page 19474

1 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honours, the list indicates this was

2 previously admitted as P529, Hanson tab 57.

3 Q. Mr. Micic, the document at tab 17 that you're now looking at is a

4 Decision on the Establishment of the Serb Municipality of Tuzla, which was

5 adopted at a session of the Assembly of the Serbian municipality of Tuzla

6 held on 3 March 1992. And as you can see from the prefatory language at

7 the top of the page, that decision was taken pursuant to, among other

8 things, Article 4 of the Instructions on the Organisation and Activity of

9 Organs of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina Under Emergency

10 Circumstances of 19 December 1991.

11 Is it still your testimony, Mr. Micic, that you were unaware of

12 the establishment of a Serbian municipality in Tuzla of this type and

13 specifically one that was established pursuant to the instructions of 19

14 December 1991?

15 A. Yes. I adhere by that. You have to appreciate that even if this

16 did exist - and I can see that it did - then it was only the SDS that did

17 that. I was in another party. I did not belong to the SDS. There was no

18 effort made to know of these decisions, but I wonder how come, once they

19 left Tuzla, how come they asked me to fight for the proclamation of the

20 Serbian municipality of Tuzla in the Serbian parliament if they had

21 already had this. I've never seen this before.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger, I'm looking at the clock. And

23 since you -- I suggested that we would have a break at quarter to five, I

24 gave a message to others that we have a break at quarter to five, so I'd

25 like to have a break now and resume at quarter past five.

Page 19475

1 --- Recess taken at 4.48 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 5.23 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber may have arrived a couple of minutes

4 late. We then still had to wait for another couple of minutes.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Micic, just one more question about your awareness of the

8 establishment of a Serbian municipality in Tuzla before we move on to

9 another subject, and in that connection if I can direct your attention to

10 tab -- I think that has to be distributed.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then wait for that. Meanwhile,

12 Mr. Tieger, we assigned now a number to tab 11. I hardly can imagine that

13 -- because the reference by Mr. Karadzic to the A and B document at a

14 later stage, it's clear in my memory that we went through that before.

15 MR. TIEGER: You're quite right, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore could you please verify whether it

17 really is something new or something already in evidence, but then perhaps

18 the whole of it instead of just the excerpts.

19 MR. TIEGER: First of all, I think that's a good suggestion, and

20 we will look at that this evening for precisely that purpose.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.


23 Q. Mr. Micic, I want you to turn your attention next to an excerpt

24 from the 18th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, held on August 11,

25 1992, a session at which the attendance records indicate you were present.

Page 19476

1 And in that connection, I want to direct your attention to the remarks of

2 Mr. Tesic found at page 14 of the English translation. And I believe the

3 interpreters have the benefit of a table which --

4 JUDGE ORIE: There are only two pages, so--

5 MR. TIEGER: They shouldn't have too much trouble.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I take it one of the problems might be that -- yes.

7 The English translation -- the original B/C/S starts only halfway the

8 first page of the English, and then -- yes, on the first page, last three

9 digits 623.

10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. On that occasion, Mr. Micic, Mr. Tesic said: "Honoured

12 Presidency, ladies and gentlemen, we brought the decision on establishing

13 the Tuzla municipality on 23 March this year. It was sent by fax on 24

14 March."

15 He goes on to indicate that, by mistake, the decision wasn't

16 verified by the Assembly placed on the list of municipalities, and then he

17 describes the geographical extent of the Serbian municipality of Tuzla.

18 Does that remind you now, Mr. Micic, about your previous knowledge

19 of the establishment of a Serbian municipality or was that a reference at

20 the Assembly that you simply no longer recall?

21 A. The Assembly did discuss the Serbian municipality of Tuzla but

22 what you gave me to read is a statement by a deputy of the SDS who,

23 amongst others, also asked for this to be adopted and for the municipality

24 of Tuzla to be verified. I took that as a personal thing. I thought that

25 some people had their own personal thing or interest in those -- in the

Page 19477

1 Tuzla municipality, but I don't know whether any decision was made later

2 in this period that you are talking about, and I don't know if anything

3 like that was valid. I think that this was just done by somebody on their

4 own initiative. A telex was sent, but what does it mean? Anybody could

5 send a telex to anyone. But I assert that there was no verification at

6 the Bosnian Assembly or the Assembly of the Serbian People to form a

7 municipality of Tuzla, a Serb municipality of Tuzla.

8 Q. Let's be quite clear on this, Mr. Micic. Are you suggesting that

9 in the context of 1992 and in the wake of efforts to establish Serbian

10 municipalities, to have them verified at the Assembly, and the evidence

11 indicates that many, many, many Serbian municipalities were established

12 and verified, that you considered each and every one of those

13 municipalities to be simply a personal lark by someone from the region as

14 opposed to an official act verified and adopted by the Serbian Assembly?

15 A. I'm telling you again that this was not a result of any gathering

16 by anyone, any forum or of any body at which this would be adopted and a

17 municipality formed, because I can see here that there was a total of 24

18 or 23 deputies present, of whom nine were councillors. That's what they

19 were called. The others were presidents of village boards of the SDS who

20 didn't have any legality or legitimacy to be able to do that, and I

21 believe that it was just somebody who drafted such a document in order to

22 promote themselves and to send it somewhere. But I assert that the topic

23 of the agenda of the Assembly was never the formation of a Serbian

24 municipality of Tuzla, at least as far as I know. I don't see it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Micic, may I draw your attention to the

Page 19478

1 following: Today a question was put to you. You were asked, "Was such a

2 body, such a Serbian municipality, established in Tuzla in the first few

3 months of 1992?" Your answer was, "I'm not aware of it. I don't think it

4 existed. If it had existed, it would have already left Tuzla as such."

5 And then later on you said, "It would have had some sort of legitimacy if

6 it had been elected, if it had been set up." And then Mr. Tieger said, "I

7 wasn't talking about an elected body," but finally he concluded that you

8 had answered his question that you were not aware of the establishment of

9 a Serbian municipality in Tuzla in early 1992.

10 In your last answer, you told us that the Serbian municipality of

11 Tuzla was discussed at an Assembly meeting, at a Republika Srpska Assembly

12 meeting. The answer to the first question should have included, if you

13 would have answered that question in accordance with the solemn

14 declaration that you gave, should have included that it was discussed at

15 an Assembly meeting but that you are not convinced that this was anything

16 more than any personal project of somebody.

17 So you're invited to tell us as an answer to the questions put to

18 you in this respect, the establishment of the Serbian municipality of

19 Tuzla, to tell us what you know about it even if you personally would have

20 an opinion on whether it was legitimate, yes or no. Is that clear?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


24 Q. Well -- and it was my intention to move on to the next subject in

25 light of the time, but I don't want to preclude you from responding to the

Page 19479

1 opportunity presented by the Court, but if you're satisfied with your

2 previous answers, I will move on to the next subject.

3 A. I don't think that we understood each other.

4 Q. I think, as far as I'm concerned, we did understand each other. I

5 had asked you, Mr. Micic, about your awareness about the establishment of

6 a Serbian municipality; you denied such awareness; I presented you with

7 documentation indicating that it was discussed in your presence. Have I

8 missed something?

9 A. No, no. I'm talking about something else. I differentiate

10 between the period in Tuzla up until the 15th of May and after the 15th of

11 May with Tuzla. Not in Tuzla but with Tuzla. Up to May 15th, I don't

12 know whether anybody ever formed the Serbian municipality of Tuzla in

13 Tuzla. I know about attempts to form the Serbian municipality of Tuzla

14 outside of Tuzla after that period, and I explained why and what was the

15 reason for that.

16 The discussion by Mr. Tesic is something that I really don't

17 recall, and I wouldn't be able to comment on it, but I don't think that

18 it's very serious. The fact that somebody sent some telexes, I didn't

19 have access to those telexes. I didn't know that anyone was doing

20 anything. But I assert that the municipality of Tuzla was not verified

21 through the parliament. It was one question. There were a million

22 questions that I didn't really pay that much attention to, so that was one

23 of them. I don't know if you're satisfied with that answer.

24 Q. Well, as I indicated, let's turn to another question. I'd like to

25 direct your attention now to some of the comments you offered in response

Page 19480

1 to questions yesterday about the meeting that you and Dr. Karadzic and

2 Mr. Krajisnik had with General Jankovic in March of 1992.

3 And -- you indicated --

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, excuse me. Although we're moving on to

5 another topic, I just want to make an observation on the English

6 translation that we were looking at a moment ago, the comments of

7 Mr. Tesic.


9 MR. STEWART: Where it says "Honoured Presidency, ladies and

10 gentlemen, we brought the decision on establishing the Tuzla

11 municipality." That could mislead in English. Mr. Karganovic assures me

12 that the Serbian has a sense of we took or we --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I appreciate you're assisted by

14 Mr. Karganovic in interpreting language. I think it's most helpful for

15 the Defence that there is someone who can read it. If, however, there

16 needs to be a verification in court, I always would like to invite you to

17 put the relevant portion on the ELMO so that the translators can look at

18 it and see whether it's a correct translation, yes or no. That's the

19 procedure I would -- rather than to present first the, I would say the

20 private interpretation, although I fully appreciate, and if I were in your

21 circumstances, I -- as a matter of fact, I still remember how important it

22 was for Defence counsel to be assisted by someone who speaks the language.

23 MR. STEWART: It certainly helps.

24 JUDGE ORIE: It's not in any way a criticism, but the way of

25 verifying the correctness of an interpretation should be through our

Page 19481

1 interpreters. Yes?

2 MR. STEWART: Indeed, Your Honour. I -- yes. I'm suggesting

3 something and --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Or it could also be read by Mr. Karganovic. I have

5 no problem with that, since we did --

6 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, it's such -- I'll do it through

7 the ELMO, if necessary. It's a very -- it's a very tiny point, it relates

8 to one word or one phrase. Mr. Karganovic can certainly read the relevant

9 Serbian phrase, but it -- well, perhaps we'll start way that round, then,

10 Your Honour, if we may.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll see.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have the original and

13 Mr. Karganovic is reading quite fast, and could the original, the B/C/S be

14 placed on the ELMO.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I expected you to have received the same as we

16 have, which is the original.

17 Mr. Karganovic, reading always goes very quick. We have it now on

18 the ELMO. Perhaps you could read it again slowly so that the interpreters

19 can translate it for us.

20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may, before we begin, I'm a little

21 confused. We've gone to considerable trouble, as the Court is aware, to

22 copy the excerpts in both languages and present them to the interpreters.

23 I thought the interpreters had the original of this excerpt.

24 JUDGE ORIE: It's really something to be verified after this

25 hearing.

Page 19482

1 It's on the ELMO now. Let me just look at it. And could you

2 please slowly read it, Mr. Karganovic, and the interpreters will then

3 translate it for us.

4 Could we zoom in, perhaps, on the relevant portion, which is the

5 middle of the page. Yes, there we are.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise. We have found the

7 copy.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Apologies, I take it, Mr. Tieger, are accepted.

9 Could you please read it again, Mr. Karganovic.

10 MR. KARGANOVIC: [Interpretation] "Honoured Presidency, ladies and

11 gentlemen, the decision on the forming of the municipality of Tuzla was

12 adopted on the 23rd of March."

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So "we brought the decision" is that it "was

14 adopted." Yes, that's clear. There is a slight difference in language

15 which might be relevant.

16 Thank you, Mr. Stewart. So I do understand whether it was brought

17 in the Assembly is a different matter, but I take it that you want to draw

18 our attention it was only mentioned that it was adopted at the local

19 level.

20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it was -- normally it would -- it would

21 have been such a trivial point. It was actually -- it was the end of the

22 sentence, the reference to it being sent by fax.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

24 MR. STEWART: That necessitated making it clear whether the

25 translation was brought which would imply some physical taking of a

Page 19483

1 document or adopted in a sense of a decision being made. It was the whole

2 sentence which necessitated clearing up that point.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You say it's not clear who sent it to whom, although

4 the word "telefax" appears clearly in the B/C/S.

5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it may make it crystal clear: What it

6 is, as originally translated in English it could have been read in the

7 sense of -- especially with the reference to being sent by fax on the 24th

8 of March, it could have been understood in the sense of it being

9 physically brought, that a piece of paper had been brought on that day and

10 then the following day sent by fax. It was in order to clear that up,

11 Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear now. Let's proceed.

13 Mr. Tieger, we are now back to yesterday, the meeting with -- in

14 the presence of Mr. Jankovic. That's where you stopped, I take it.

15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. And if I understood your testimony correctly, Mr. Micic, you were

17 -- you conveyed to us a sense that the meeting was a disappointment to

18 you and to General Jankovic and that, as a result, it was your clear

19 impression that thereafter, in light of the fact that no meaningful

20 information had been communicated during that meeting, that there was no

21 further contact or coordination with the Tuzla Corps command and the SDS

22 leadership thereafter. Is that essentially the sense of the meeting and

23 its consequences that you were trying to convey to the Court?

24 A. That was my impression at that time. I don't know later if there

25 were any contacts that I was not privy to. I cannot know that.

Page 19484

1 Q. It wasn't apparent to you from the objective of the meeting and

2 from the substance and tenor of the meeting that there would be further

3 contact between the SDS leadership and the Tuzla Corps command.

4 A. That's how I understood it.

5 Q. Can we turn next, then, to tab 18.

6 MR. TIEGER: That document will need a new exhibit number, I see.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 18, Your Honours, will be P1021.


10 Q. P1021, found at tab 18, Mr. Micic, is a handwritten letter dated

11 23 March 1992 from the president of the Serbian municipality of Kalesija,

12 Petar Jankovic, to Minister Ostojic. First of all, for the benefit of the

13 Court, Kalesija is a municipality which is adjacent to Tuzla; is that

14 right? Between Tuzla and Zvornik?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And I take it you understand the reference to Minister Ostojic to

17 be Velibor Ostojic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, the letter indicates as follows: "Dear Minister, The

20 situation in Kalesija is complex and unpredictable.

21 "The Serbian people are grateful for the material and moral

22 support in these difficult times.

23 "We saw who is loyal and who disloyal.

24 "Political and strategic decisions are being coordinated with the

25 Corps Command and the 4th Armoured Brigade. I wish you success in the

Page 19485

1 creation of the Serbian state in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

2 Mr. Micic, is it your testimony that in the aftermath of the

3 meeting between Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, General Jankovic, and

4 yourself, that you were unaware that political and strategic decisions

5 would be coordinated with the corps command and the 4th Armoured Brigade?

6 A. I said clearly that it was my impression that the contact between

7 the corps command and Mr. Radovan Karadzic was during that last meeting,

8 and there was no more need to meet further. But as far as what is written

9 here, I'm not in a position to comment on somebody else's letters.

10 Q. Mr. Micic, I submit that you painted a picture of the contact

11 between the corps command and the SDS leadership which strongly suggested

12 that there would be no form of contact or coordination, and that indeed

13 the SDS leadership had no idea whatsoever what they wanted to do. And I

14 submit further that that's quite inconsistent with this letter and the

15 facts as they actually were in March of 1992.

16 A. I don't know who that man is from Kalesija. I don't know him and

17 I don't know what his role is, what his function is, and whether he was in

18 any important position in the SDS. I don't know. I mean, if he was of a

19 -- in a prominent position or stood for something important, I would have

20 known him.

21 This is a private letter. I have to tell you that at that time

22 everybody was organising something around their house. He was probably

23 organising something. I don't know what that was. He was in contact with

24 people. I don't know the man, so I don't know what he wanted to say with

25 this. But to take it as an element that the corps command contacted the

Page 19486

1 SDS through people like this is something that I would consider frivolous

2 on the part of the corps.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you did let the witness go. He starts

4 commenting on a letter he sees for the first time, I take it, giving a lot

5 of speculation. As a matter of fact, your question, of course, the issue

6 seems to be that Mr. Micic gave evidence as to the impression he got from

7 his meeting with Mr. Karadzic, and whether that was a right impression or

8 a wrong impression and whether that impression was given or not given is

9 something which is not clarified by this issue. Whether, at least in this

10 letter, someone presents a view that the SDS leadership, or at least the

11 one who is addressed in this letter, which is not automatically the SDS

12 leadership as such, may have had some ideas on how to proceed is, of

13 course, a different matter, and it doesn't assist that much to listen to

14 this interpretation, speculation, commenting on this letter. Please

15 proceed.

16 MR. TIEGER: Of course, not inviting my response, so I won't offer

17 any to that, but we'll certainly reserve comment on it for the appropriate

18 time.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. If -- of course the Chamber, if --

20 if you show that it greatly assists us, then of course we'll -- it may

21 become apparent from what is still to come.


23 Q. Mr. Micic, you told us yesterday that at the time of a meeting

24 that you had with Dr. Karadzic after the Serb deputies left the Assembly

25 and before a recognition, that there was no discussion with Dr. Karadzic

Page 19487

1 about the ethnic division of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could we have the page references as we

3 go along?

4 MR. TIEGER: Page 46 of the LiveNote.

5 MR. STEWART: Thank you.


7 Q. At the time of the meeting -- at the time of the meeting you had

8 with General Jankovic and Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik, was there

9 already discussion of the ethnic division of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. I don't know what the question is.

11 Q. Was the issue of the ethnic division of Bosnia and Herzegovina

12 current among the SDS leadership and at the Bosnian Serb Assembly in March

13 of 1992?

14 A. Yes, I think it was. I think that you misunderstood me when I

15 spoke about my visit and General Jankovic's visit to General Krajisnik. I

16 said then that I did not get the impression that Radovan Karadzic, as the

17 president of the party, as a person who was already advocating such a

18 policy, could say anything for the microlocality which responded to the

19 area of responsibility of the Tuzla Corps. That was in the domain of

20 General Jankovic.

21 As far as the global plan of the SDS and the Serb deputies in the

22 Assembly was concerned, the division of Bosnia, about some borders and

23 just to -- which was the basis of everything, maintain the equality of the

24 people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, because if you lost equality, then you would

25 lose everything. With the adoption of the declaration, the Serbs were

Page 19488

1 practically evicted from that equality. That was the general policy of

2 the SDS and the Serb deputies. Here we mixed up the conversation of

3 General Jankovic.

4 Q. Well, Mr. Micic, what you actually said about the meeting, found

5 at pages 29 and 30, was that, although you wanted to hear the programme

6 and what the objectives were, as a result of the meeting, "... we

7 understood that there was no programme and there were no objectives."

8 So with that characterisation of the state of affairs in March

9 1992, I'd like to turn your attention and the Court's attention to a

10 session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly in March of 1992, and in fact on the

11 18th of March, 1992. That's the 11th session of the Assembly.

12 MR. TIEGER: And those excerpts, I believe, Your Honour, can be

13 found at tab 1. It's a previous exhibit, P64, P65, Treanor, tab 10. It's

14 also a Hanson exhibit, as the list indicates.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The page would be?

16 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour?

17 JUDGE ORIE: The page you're --

18 MR. TIEGER: I'll be referring to a number of different pages.

19 Q. In fact, Mr. Micic, by this time the global goals of the Bosnian

20 Serb leadership that you referred to earlier were in the process of being

21 implemented in the individual municipalities all around Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina. That was the thrust of what was happening in mid to late

23 March 1992, the effort by the Bosnian Serb leadership to actualise the

24 goal of ethnic division on the ground in the municipalities in

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that fair or not?

Page 19489

1 A. The question of global life of Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina was

2 not in dispute. And again I'm talking about the conversation with General

3 Jankovic. These global objectives and positions were not discussed at

4 all. Something else was discussed. And I said what that was. It was the

5 area of responsibility of the corps itself. Naturally, General Jankovic

6 was interested in taking care of the army and preserving them. These were

7 young men, 18-year-olds, and it's clear that he wanted to know how he was

8 to behave at certain points.

9 I will also tell you --

10 Q. Turning your attention away from the specific meeting with General

11 Jankovic to the issue of what was happening and what efforts were being

12 made by the Bosnian Serb leadership in connection with moving forward on

13 the global objective of ethnic division, and I'm putting to you that by

14 March 18th and moving on into later March, there was a focus on

15 actualising that process on the ground, on taking power in municipalities.

16 A. I don't know what the situation was in other municipalities. I

17 can talk about those municipalities where I resided, where I was.

18 As for the forcible takeover of some municipalities, I personally

19 believe that as long as the JNA was present in the territory of Bosnia,

20 there was no way for doing something forcibly. It was only when the JNA

21 left the conditions were created for those things that you are putting to

22 me.

23 Q. That's interesting to hear you respond to my question by saying

24 you can only answer in terms of the specific municipalities in which you

25 resided, because the 11th session of the Assembly is one at which the

Page 19490

1 attendance records indicate you were present. So let me turn your

2 attention to the matters that were discussed, at least some of the matters

3 that were discussed, at that very Assembly. And perhaps it's useful if I

4 turn your attention to a number of references and -- before I seek your

5 response to any particular ones.

6 First of all, if I can turn your attention to page 12 of the --

7 and 13 of the English, which is SA02-5727 of the B/C/S.

8 JUDGE ORIE: That's page 16, Mr. Micic.


10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik says, "What is the problem?

11 "I think the problem is that they want Bosnia and Herzegovina to

12 be internationally recognised at any cost. They want it to be a state.

13 "In this respect, it would be good if we could do one thing for

14 strategic reasons: If we could start implementing what we have agreed

15 upon, the ethnic division on the ground. That we start determining the

16 territory, and once the territory is determined, it remains to be

17 established in additional negotiations whose authorities are to function

18 and in what way. I cannot say whether this will be fair in political

19 terms, there is not much fairness in politics after all, and yes, if it

20 does not turn out to be fair, the Serbian people will be blamed. But we

21 cannot accept a state designed in the mind of the SDA people."

22 Turning your attention later in the session to the remarks of

23 Mrs. Plavsic found at pages 17 and 18 of the session. That's SA02-5734,

24 page 23.

25 Mrs. Plavsic first recommends that negotiators in future talks try

Page 19491

1 to arrange that the door is as wide open as possible to connect with

2 Serbian lands, and then she goes on to say: "Regarding what has been said

3 earlier, that this must be made reality on the ground, yes, for sure, but

4 if it could also include a key to such an arrangement in the document,

5 which is certainly going to be modified after the next round of talks," et

6 cetera.

7 Turning to page 22 of the English. That's Dr. Kalinic speaking at

8 page 30. "I offer my full support to all those who want to work on this

9 to the fullest extent possible to establish our authority everywhere we

10 have territory: Starting from the local commune, to the municipality, to

11 the republican level. We should not wait for anyone." And he goes on to

12 note Mrs. Plavsic's explanation.

13 Mr. Bjelovic speaks immediately afterwards, and in the third

14 paragraph of his comment, says: "I suggest that we adopt the Croatian

15 model of creating a de facto situation on the ground, to continue working

16 in the Serbian assembly, and to have the negotiating team carry on their

17 work."

18 Mr. Perisic, later on, at page 27 of the English and page 41 of

19 the B/C/S: "A very important matter and one highlighted by many people,

20 is that a state is created in two ways: By negotiations, talks,

21 diplomatic methods, political moves, etc. The other way, which is more

22 important, entails practical moves on the ground."

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Micic, if you are not able to find it

24 immediately, please ask for some more time. So your attention has now

25 been drawn to page 41 of your B/C/S copy. Have you found it?

Page 19492

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE ORIE: There might be --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring to --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you said page 41 of the B/C/S,

5 Mr. Perisic talking. In my --

6 MR. TIEGER: I see on this --

7 JUDGE ORIE: On page 40 it's Mr. Ijacic who starts talking --

8 MR. TIEGER: It's either at the bottom of page 37 or the top of

9 page 38. And thank you for pointing that out.

10 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Micic.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Micic, Mr. Tieger made a mistake. Could you

12 please look at the bottom of page 37 and/or the top of page 38.


14 Q. Mr. Micic, it's four paragraphs above the point at which Ms. Subic

15 begins to speak. Do you see that now, that paragraph? And it begins: "A

16 very important matter, and one highlighted by many people ..."

17 JUDGE ORIE: Have you found it, Mr. Micic?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes. Thank you.


20 Q. So Mr. Perisic talks about the two ways a state is created; one by

21 negotiations, et cetera, and then continues: "The other way, which is

22 more important, entails practical moves on the ground. This is where we

23 are not good enough; we just think that we have control and authority,

24 that we control the territory. Objectively, we are far from it."

25 At page 29 of the English, Mr. Ijacic speaks. This is page 41,

Page 19493

1 immediately before Professor Miljanovic speaks. Do you have that

2 reference, Mr. Micic?

3 A. Yes, I see it.

4 Q. And he says: "It has been stressed here that the actual situation

5 on the ground was very important, and I would like to add that the more we

6 achieve on the ground, the less will have to be said by our negotiators to

7 achieve more. And secondly, the more we achieve on the ground, the more

8 time will be on our side, and the negotiations can last even longer. In

9 the opposite case, time is our enemy."

10 And finally, let me direct your attention to remarks by

11 Mr. Krajisnik, beginning at page 31 of the English and page 45 of the

12 B/C/S. You will see a portion immediately above some enumerated items

13 where Mr. Krajisnik says: "Allow me one conclusion." Then he begins:

14 "The document drafted at the conference ..." et cetera. Then he continues

15 by saying: "A proposal for the takeover of actual power and establishment

16 of authority in the Republic of the Serbian people of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina shall be prepared for the next session."

18 Mr. Micic, does that now refresh or change your recollection about

19 the fact -- I think you indicated before that you were -- didn't recall

20 such discussions. Does that remind you now, or do you at least agree that

21 in mid-March of 1992 that the Bosnian Serb leadership was in the process

22 of moving forward to ensure that those global objectives you mentioned

23 were being actualised on the ground?

24 A. It is beyond dispute that Republika Srpska wanted to have an

25 autonomy, to have some power, but the people -- two people that you're

Page 19494

1 talking about, I don't know who they are, this Perisic and Ijacic. They

2 must have been guests. They were not MPs. They were just guests who

3 intervened and spoke about something. I don't know these people. And

4 since I never respected or listened to the guests, I'm not familiar with

5 their interventions.

6 Q. Mr. Micic, you have not been asked here to serve as an interpreter

7 of documents or to be -- to deconstruct the transcripts of the Bosnian

8 Serb Assemblies in the abstract. You're here as someone who lived through

9 these events and purports to have some knowledge of them. You were at

10 this session. You heard the discussions that took place there, including

11 the comments by a variety of people, including Mrs. Plavsic,

12 Mr. Krajisnik, and others present there. If you don't have any

13 recollection of what was happening in Republika Srpska in mid-March of

14 1992, you can simply tell us, but it serves no purpose to quibble about

15 the comments of a couple of people who you didn't know very well when I

16 provided you with a lot of information about the tenor of that meeting and

17 the conclusions of that meeting in order to refresh your recollection, if

18 it is at all possible, about what was happening at that time.

19 Isn't it the case, as I put to you earlier, that in mid-March and

20 late March of 1992 the Bosnian Serb leadership was in the process of

21 ensuring that its global objectives were being actualised in the

22 municipalities around Bosnia and Herzegovina?

23 A. I think that this was a confirmation of the Cutileiro plan. This

24 was accepted. Yesterday I told you that there had been a lot of

25 negligence in the municipalities and that we wanted to restore some order

Page 19495

1 there, but I don't see what is in dispute here. I still believe that

2 these conclusions are certainly valid.

3 Q. Does that mean the answer to my question is yes, or is it no, or

4 is it that you simply don't know what was happening at the time?

5 A. I think that the leadership of the then Republika Srpska, if we

6 can call it that, if we can call it a republic, had an objective to create

7 some sort of autonomy that would provide security for the life of the

8 Serbian people in that territory, and that would be that. I personally

9 think that there was not a plan as to what municipalities would be

10 encompassed into that.

11 Q. And during the succeeding sessions of the 12th, 13th, and 14th

12 Assemblies, held on March 24th - that's the 12th and 13th held on the same

13 day - and March 27th, do you recall that the leadership advised the

14 deputies that the police would be sufficient for the process of taking

15 control in the municipalities?

16 A. I don't know whether this was in that sense, that the police would

17 be enough, but I believe that by the virtue of their tasks, the police

18 should have been tasked with providing security in those municipalities.

19 This is the role of the police.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Micic, may I just return to your -- one of your

21 previous answers. You said that you thought that the leadership had an

22 objective to provide some sort of autonomy for the people in that

23 territory.

24 You are confronted with texts, and let me just take the last one

25 you were confronted with, which does not speak about creating some sort of

Page 19496

1 autonomy but talks about a proposal for the takeover of actual power. I

2 take it that autonomy can be established by taking over of power. Not

3 necessarily by taking over power. You can create autonomy in other ways

4 as well.

5 So if you're talking about some sort of autonomy in view of the

6 quote you were confronted with, is that an autonomy which was gained by

7 the takeover of the power or was that an autonomy achieved in any other

8 way? And if it would be in any other way, would you please explain what

9 you had in mind that those who were speaking at this Assembly meeting

10 pointed at.

11 A. In simple terms, I was referring to bringing authorities to the

12 areas with a majority Serb population. I believe that authorities had to

13 be established because the authorities had to function. Some order had to

14 be introduced.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me ask you, what do you understand the

16 takeover of actual power to be?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that power should have

18 been taken over from somebody in a forcible way, because this had been

19 done in a number of municipalities. What I'm referring to is establishing

20 power from the state of lawlessness to going to the state of lawfulness.

21 And I don't think that this means to take over power in a forcible way.

22 JUDGE ORIE: But the ones who were speaking, at least this quote,

23 seems not to reflect what your opinion is but what the opinion of the

24 speaker is. I mean, I do understand that you had your own ideas about it,

25 but you're asked about what you learned at that time to be the -- what was

Page 19497

1 expressed by those who were speaking in the Assembly and with whose texts

2 you're now confronted.

3 I mean, it doesn't make much sense to say -- if I ask you, What

4 does it mean to take over power, take over actual power? And you say,

5 Well, that's not the way it should have been done, because it was not to

6 take over the power from someone else. But how do you understand these

7 texts? Do they agree with your position that there should be no takeover

8 of power, of actual power?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that you're right. If

10 this is what the transcript says, this must have been said, but what I'm

11 saying is there were all sorts of statements, all sorts of ambitions, all

12 sorts of programmes. We were not very realistic, and I still claim that

13 nobody said that we should go to a municipality and to take over power

14 there but, rather, that some order and authorities should be introduced

15 into the areas where the majority Serb population. This is how I

16 understand these statements. But of course there were statements to the

17 effect that this should be done from Junik down to the very south of

18 Europe.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me ask another question. This last line reads:

20 "Proposal for the takeover of actual power and establishment of authority

21 in the Republic of the Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina shall be

22 prepared ..."

23 Was on the whole of the territory of the Serbian -- Republic of

24 the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, was there a Serb majority?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. What I'm implying is that where

Page 19498

1 the Serbs were de facto in power, this should have been implemented de

2 jure as well. So just to cover, by laws, the de facto situation on the

3 ground.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the proposal was for the takeover of actual

5 power and establishment of authority. That sounds as two things. It

6 don't say a proposal for where the actual power is already in the hands of

7 the Serbs to establish authority. No, it reads, "A proposal for the

8 takeover of actual power and establishment of authority ..."

9 Is that the same or not the same as you just --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You don't think it's the same as what you just

12 explained to us?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so. I believe that

14 the takeover should have taken place in the areas with a majority Serb

15 population where this had not been done. This is my private opinion.

16 So this is where the takeover should have taken place. And in the

17 other areas, it should have just been implemented de jure.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's your private opinion. But the issue is

19 not what you thought about the matter. The issue is about what was said

20 at that time. Is what your private opinion is, is that what was said at

21 the time or is what was said different from what you now express as your

22 opinion?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. My opinion is that this is

24 what was meant when all this was being said.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand your testimony well if you say

Page 19499

1 what we read here is actually meant to say what you just expressed was

2 your private opinion.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I believe that this is exactly

4 what they, as well, thought.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear.

6 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Mr. Micic, please turn to tab 7. That contains P64, P65

9 Treanor 16, tab 221; the 34th Assembly session held in August, September,

10 and the 1st of October 1993. That's the 27th to 29 August, 9th and 10th

11 September, and 29th of September and the 1st of October, 1993.

12 Mr. Micic, please turn to remarks by Mr. Mladic at page 66 of the

13 English. I will give you the B/C/S reference in a moment.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, if you're looking where page 66 of the

15 English appears in B/C/S, I think it would be on page 65, but --

16 MR. TIEGER: It's the beginning of General Mladic's remarks.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's, from what I see, where he says,

18 "Distinguished chairman." I find that at one-third of page 65.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 65.

20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. Micic, as you can see, General Mladic says, shortly after his

22 remarks begin: "First, people and the army, with the help from the rest

23 of us according to our possibilities, have carried out the most of tasks,

24 and strategic goals, set to them. We have created Republika Srpska."

25 What were the strategic goals that General Mladic and the army --

Page 19500

1 that were set to General Mladic and the army and which they carried out

2 that resulted in the creation of Republika Srpska?

3 A. I remember this speech by General Mladic. I think that I also

4 discussed something at that Assembly session. I remember it. But I must

5 tell you that the Assembly of Republika Srpska, or at least the leadership

6 of Republika Srpska, according to what I know, was never in a situation of

7 stating clearly what it was that it wanted, what was the minimum, the

8 maximum, or what was the optimum. This is something that I was always

9 remarking upon, both to the leadership and to the Assembly.

10 I think that the leadership of Republika Srpska never laid down

11 any objectives for the simple reason that they never knew decisively to

12 say what they wanted.

13 What Mladic said here is something that I felt was just the

14 boasting of a general. I don't know why we were talking about the

15 creation of Republika Srpska, but it is true that he did fight. He was

16 fighting. Battles were being waged.

17 Q. So when General Mladic referred to the strategic goals set to the

18 army, you had no idea what he was talking about?

19 A. The army often talks about strategy, so probably this term

20 "strategic goals" was also something that he used in that sense.

21 Q. So that was an intra-army reference by General Mladic, and you as

22 a civilian politician didn't have any idea what he meant by that; is that

23 right?

24 A. No. Well, actually, in answer to your question, yes, I had no

25 idea.

Page 19501

1 Q. That's your testimony to this Chamber, Mr. Micic, you had idea

2 what the strategic goals were? Is that correct?

3 A. Strategic goals that were laid down, adopted. I don't know

4 whether that was set ever. I never heard of any programme or a plan of

5 strategic goals when we're talking about territory. When we're talking

6 about the equality of peoples and the division, okay, there was that. I

7 don't know what is considered to be included in the term "strategic

8 goals."

9 Q. Well, let me mention a couple of the strategic goals to you. The

10 first of the strategic goals, Mr. Micic, was the separation of the other

11 nations in Bosnia and Herzegovina from the Serbs, the ethnic division of

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Ever heard of that as a strategic goal of the

13 Serbian people?

14 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina was like a leopard skin. It was all mixed. To

15 tell you again, I never heard of --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you come to answer the question. The

17 question was whether you ever heard of this as a strategic goal. Please

18 answer the question.


20 Q. Let me turn your attention, then, to pages 14 and 15 --

21 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Tieger, I interrupted the witness when he

22 said, "I never heard of," but let the witness first then complete his

23 answer.

24 You said you never heard of ...

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying again that I never heard

Page 19502

1 of any strategic goals adopted as some sort of project or goal or

2 programme. I don't know of anything like that.

3 As to whether there were any statements made and demands being

4 put, and even, I think, in this discussion I proposed something about the

5 division of Bosnia. There were such things, but this was never adopted,

6 and it was never valid that that was that, or at least I never know -- I

7 never knew that anything like that happened.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then tell us about strategic goals that were never

9 adopted or were invalid. What could you tell us about invalid and

10 non-adopted strategic goals?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were demands to have a

12 division carried out. There were different discussions. And I told you

13 yesterday that there were people who were very difficult in these

14 positions. There were even statements that they did this or that, that

15 they were boasting.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me say the following: This Chamber has received

17 evidence that suggests the existence of six strategic goals, the first one

18 mentioned to you by Mr. Tieger. Now, irrespective of whether they were

19 adopted or whether they were valid or not, do you have any idea about what

20 the five other strategic goals of which this Chamber received evidence

21 would be about; from what you heard, statements, whatever source, I do not

22 mind. Could you fill in any of the remaining five strategic goals as they

23 were until now presented, true or not, to this Chamber?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the period that you are talking

25 about and in which this Assembly session took place, at that time I never

Page 19503

1 knew or heard about strategic goals. I heard of strategic goals the day

2 before yesterday, and I read them, and I know what they are, but I didn't

3 know of them, nor was I present at the Assembly session when they were

4 discussed.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

6 So you heard about strategic goals for the first time two days

7 ago. Is that how I have to understand it?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, when I came here.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


11 Q. I direct your attention to pages 14 and 15 of the English, page 12

12 of the B/C/S. These are the remarks of Dr. Karadzic at this same session,

13 the 34th session. Dr. Karadzic says: "Strategic goals adopted by this

14 Assembly have been or will be achieved to the fullest extent, just to

15 remind those who do not know it. This Assembly reached strategic goals of

16 Serb people, which have become, in a certain way, our tasks, our

17 obligation to realise them, but those were the goals we aimed at and the

18 goals we aim at now to achieve whenever it would be possible."

19 And then Dr. Karadzic goes on to enumerate the strategic goals.

20 "Consequently," he says, "the first goal was to separate us, to keep our

21 independence and avoid foreign domination. In other words, to create our

22 state product in the former Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 "The second goal is to have connected territories - we have

24 called them a corridor, and that is to have connected territories in

25 Posavina.

Page 19504

1 "The third goal is to let the river of Drina be never more a

2 border between Serb people.

3 "The fourth goal is that the valley of the river of Neretva, that

4 is the left bank of Neretva, is to belong to east Herzegovina and/or

5 Republika Srpska due to the historical and ethnic right, geographical and

6 economic right, et cetera.

7 "The fifth goal is to maintain our part in and protect our rights

8 to Sarajevo, because that part is very important for integrating the

9 territories of east Herzegovina, Old Herzegovina and Romanija and because

10 our interests in concentrating education, culture, science and economy are

11 met in this valley.

12 "Thus, that interest is to create Serb Sarajevo, whatever it is

13 to be called, but to create it out of the Serb territory in the town of

14 Sarajevo.

15 "The sixth goal is to have an exit to the seaside."

16 And then Dr. Karadzic goes on to discuss the fifth and sixth and

17 fourth some more.

18 I can also tell you, Mr. Micic, that at pages 128 through 132 of

19 the same session, later on, Mr. Krajisnik goes on to discuss and enumerate

20 the strategic goals again, all six of them, in quite some detail.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


24 Q. Mr. Micic, you were not being honest or candid or forthright with

25 this Court when you said that you only heard of the strategic goals for

Page 19505

1 the first time two days ago. Isn't that true?

2 A. No. I see that it says so here and that that's it, however, I

3 didn't know that that was adopted by the Assembly. I still don't know

4 that today. I see here that Radovan Karadzic said that this was adopted

5 by the Assembly. I don't know when the Assembly adopted that. I just

6 thought that, you know, he was simply enumerating his ideas about that. I

7 didn't think it was anything else. I'm just saying that that's how it

8 was.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Micic, I earlier asked you to tell us about what

10 you knew about strategic goals, valid or invalid, adopted or not adopted.

11 Now it seems that you're saying, "Well, I heard about it but I thought

12 they were not valid or they were not adopted." I invited you five minutes

13 ago to tell us what you knew about strategic goals, whether or not valid,

14 whether or not adopted, and now you tell us that you heard about them but

15 you thought they were not valid. As you say, "I still don't know --" "I

16 see that it says there and that's it, however, I did not know that that

17 was adopted by the Assembly. I still don't know that today. I see here

18 that Radovan Karadzic said that this was adopted by the Assembly. I don't

19 know when the Assembly adopted it."

20 Now, a simple question: Did you hear what Mr. Karadzic said - yes

21 or no - about the strategic goals? Did you hear him explaining about the

22 strategic goals?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I probably did listen to him, but

24 this was 13 or 14 years ago, and I really don't know that strategic goals

25 were discussed at that time. At least, I don't remember that. I don't

Page 19506

1 remember anyone talking about strategic goals as some kind of programme.

2 I simply understood that as their address.

3 JUDGE ORIE: What you now say, at the very end, is that what may

4 have been said perhaps in your presence in the Assembly you may have

5 forgotten about it. So it's not that you say, "I for the first time in my

6 life heard about it two days ago," but, "I heard about it two days ago,

7 and when I heard any earlier about it I must have forgotten it." Is that

8 how we are to understand your testimony?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two days ago I heard about that for

10 the first time as a strategic programme or a strategic goal. Two days ago

11 was the first time that I encountered some programme of strategic

12 objectives. I did not register that as strategic goals earlier. I didn't

13 register it as any programme.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it true that this record says that Mr. Karadzic

15 says, "Strategic goals adopted by this Assembly have been or will be

16 achieved." I mean, he was thinking in terms of strategic goals, of a

17 programme. You have missed that or did you hear that at the time, but did

18 you, despite this language, not consider that to be a programmatic issue?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked you whether it was one or the other, so

21 yes is not -- I asked have you missed that or did you hear that at the

22 time, but did you, despite this language, not consider that to be a

23 programmatic issue. Which one of the two?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that I even heard it.

25 Had I heard it, I would probably remember it, but I really do not remember

Page 19507

1 it. I assume that -- well, maybe I don't know even if I was in the hall

2 at that particular time. Perhaps I wasn't. I really don't remember that

3 part of the address.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you say you

5 don't remember.

6 Judge Hanoteau has some --

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would --

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you did not present those pages of the

11 34th session which represent the words of Mr. Krajisnik, and the Chamber

12 would appreciate it if you would confront the witness not only with the

13 presentation of the strategic goals by Mr. Karadzic and a short reference

14 made by General Mladic but also how this was done by Mr. Krajisnik.

15 And since this session took place over several days, we can see

16 that you're referring, I think, to page 124 or something like that, which

17 is not in tab 7, and tab 7A starts at page 128. And I think you were

18 referring to 124, but I should check that. Perhaps you can -- otherwise,

19 you prepare it -- otherwise, you prepare it for tomorrow, perhaps, and --

20 MR. TIEGER: I believe it's in tab 7A, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's --

22 MR. TIEGER: However, there is another reference I'd like to get

23 to before we conclude today. I don't mind at all --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Whether immediately or at a later moment, the Chamber

25 would like you to confront the witness with that portion of the ...

Page 19508

1 May I then take it 7A is -- I have to look at it -- yes.


3 Q. If the witness can turn to tab 7A. It's page 25.



6 Q. Very quickly, Mr. Micic. Mr. Krajisnik says, in the second

7 sentence: "I would like to ask you to keep in mind the first strategic

8 goal, and that is to divide and take our share out of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina and to create our own state." And he goes on about the other

10 strategic goals which are not less important. The second strategic goal

11 is the corridor. On page 129 of the English he says the third strategic

12 goal was Drina. About two or three sentences later, the fourth strategic

13 goal is Neretva and Una. The next paragraph he talks about Sarajevo. And

14 finally, on page 130 of the English, after that lengthy discussion -- find

15 the reference. At the -- approximately ten lines up from the bottom of

16 page 130 --

17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, can we be sure that Mr. Micic is also

18 picking up these passages as we go along?



21 Q. At the paragraph that begins: "We consulted with municipality

22 presidents." About five sentences after that, Mr. Krajisnik says, "That

23 is our strategic goal, I have to remind you when we were accepting these

24 goals," and he goes on to say, "none of us thought at the time that we

25 would get exit to the sea."

Page 19509

1 JUDGE ORIE: Did you find it, Mr. Micic?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I found it.


4 Q. Mr. Micic, I put it to you again that you were not being honest

5 with this Court when you said you only heard of the strategic goals two

6 days ago and that in fact you knew long before then that they were adopted

7 on the 12th of May by the Assembly. You knew what those goals were as

8 well as the territories those goals were supposed to encompass. Isn't

9 that true?

10 A. I am telling you again that I didn't consider that to be a

11 programme at the time, or even two days ago, as a programme of the way in

12 which Republika Srpska was to be formed. All of this was said, but I just

13 personally took it to be just a speech with these phrases being used. But

14 I really do not recollect any strategic goals being in any kind of

15 programme, and that is what I kept actually criticising the Assembly for,

16 that way of life, because there was no rules, and now it turns out that

17 all of this was happening but I was criticising it. So what was I

18 criticising, then?

19 Q. Is it correct or incorrect that you were well aware of the goals

20 long before you came to The Hague two days ago as well as the territories

21 those goals were supposed to encompass?

22 A. I am saying again I do not recall any strategic goals. Probably

23 it was there but I didn't know. There were probably more demands than

24 this but I didn't know about them. I didn't know there was any kind of

25 plan or programme made until two days ago.

Page 19510

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'd like to turn quickly then to the

2 next exhibit before we adjourn, if I may.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have two minutes left.

4 MR. TIEGER: Then I'd like to distribute -- I may need slightly

5 longer than two minutes but I'm going to show a video and I'll show the

6 last portions of that, if I may.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If the interpreters and the technicians would

8 consent.

9 MR. TIEGER: Let's find out if we have that leeway.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I do not hear any -- otherwise, we have to do it

11 tomorrow.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Very well, Your Honour.

13 MR. TIEGER: And I thank the interpreters very much for that.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You certainly need to do so.


16 Q. Mr. Micic, we're about to watch portions of a broadcast entitled

17 "An Open Screen," which is a talk with you and Mr. Maksimovic on February

18 7th, 1995. And in the interests of time, I want to turn to the last three

19 clips of that tape.

20 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, for the benefit of the Court and

21 interpreters, the last three are found beginning at midpoint on page 3.

22 [Videotape played]

23 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] I have to oppose Mr. Dodik because

24 they had an independent dialogue in the studio. He said we don't stand a

25 military chance. A long time ago, in the first year of war, Mr. Karadzic

Page 19511

1 said that we did not want to defeat Muslims and he would say this in the

2 public and before the RS Assembly. This has remained our position even

3 today. But, the six principles you mentioned, or six strategic goals

4 rather than principles, strategic goals adopted by our Assembly on 12 May

5 1992 in Banja Luka, those include Sarajevo as well. At that time, we

6 counted our own part of Sarajevo, naturally, the part we believe we have

7 the right to have, and we have the right to a considerable part of the

8 Sarajevo territory, both in the city centre and even more so in its

9 surroundings."


11 Q. That was Mr. Maksimovic who was talking, correct?

12 [Videotape played]

13 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Let's hear Professor Maksimovic to

14 tell me how in what way we can realise our strategic goals. Is war the

15 only option or does this include negotiations toward something else? Do

16 we have a programme or a project of solutions for our strategic goals?"

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Of course I would like to give an

19 answer at least partially to the question put by Mr. Micic. The strategic

20 goals we adopted were adopted at a time when Mr. Micic also shared my

21 views. Those goals were defined based on our assessments, on our

22 estimates in May 1992. In my view, we have partly accomplished these

23 goals. We failed to accomplish due to reasons I cannot go into right now,

24 but they have essentially remained up to now, and Mr. Micic is well aware

25 of those goals as well as the territories those goals are supposed to

Page 19512

1 encompass. I'm not of those people who should here go into what way and

2 how or talk about other people's competencies."

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, we have two parts of the transcript,

4 being the line where Mr. Micic is supposed to say, "Which I still do," and

5 later on where Mr. Micic is supposed to say, "Correct," have not been

6 translated by the interpreters. Perhaps because they didn't hear it. Of

7 course, it might be of importance.

8 MR. TIEGER: We can certainly play that last portion again, Your

9 Honour, and ask the -- I also noted that at least the last response by the

10 -- on the tape was rather quiet, but certainly audible and visible, and I

11 ask the translators to watch that.

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we acknowledge that those two points

13 are there.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

15 MR. STEWART: If that helps to short circuit.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that certainly short circuits the matter.


18 Q. Mr. Micic, that was you who said, "Correct," when Mr. Maksimovic

19 said to you, "And Mr. Micic is well aware of those goals as well as the

20 territories those goals are supposed to encompass"; isn't that right? We

21 can see that you weren't out of the room, you could see what was

22 happening, and that you acknowledged the goals; correct?

23 A. This discussion was held in Pale, in the Pale studio. This was

24 when a witch-hunt took place against us who were not members of the SDS.

25 Pressure was put on us constantly to join the SDS or at least not to be

Page 19513

1 their opposition, and in my view this should have been presented to the

2 general public, to portray us as people who were against Republika Srpska,

3 who were meant to destroy Republika Srpska.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Micic --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will answer that as well.

6 JUDGE ORIE: What about answering the question of Mr. Tieger.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did accept that as a figure of

8 speech, but again I claim I did not know anything about the strategic

9 goals. Since Professor Maksimovic said it, I accepted it formally, and I

10 confirmed it, but I still believe that Maksimovic spoke about the

11 strategic goals in the same way, just figuratively, but the whole purpose

12 of that was entirely different.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

14 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Is that your last question for today?

16 MR. TIEGER: I don't want to abuse the interpreters' --

17 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine.

18 MR. TIEGER: -- tolerance and patience any further, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn for the day, and -- we will adjourn

20 for the day. We will resume tomorrow morning [sic], quarter past two in

21 this same courtroom.

22 And I'd like to instruct you, Mr. Micic, not to speak with anyone

23 about the testimony you have given or you are still about to give in this

24 courtroom.

25 We stand adjourned.

Page 19514

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.08 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day

3 of December, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.