Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19870

1 Tuesday, 17 January 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in this new courtroom

6 environment, which I hope is not going to cause us any technical problems,

7 although everything is new. One of the things I noticed that my priority

8 button disappeared but since in the Krajisnik case I had to use it only

9 once, there seems to be no problem for the time being.

10 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

12 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

14 I'd like to start with two matters, the first one being the

15 admission of the exhibits that have been tendered through the witness,

16 Mr. Pasic. Mr. Registrar has distributed a list of exhibits. I do have

17 technical problems now already. My earphone is not constant in.

18 Okay. Let's see what --

19 The Registrar has distributed a list of exhibits.

20 Whenever I speak, and I hope the same doesn't happen to you, the

21 sound of my earphones disappears for just a fraction of a second. Could

22 we just test whether a similar thing happens when you speak? Mr. Harmon

23 may I ask you to speak a few words.

24 MR. HARMON: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. Good afternoon.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.

Page 19871

1 MR. JOSSE: This is my turn to experiment, Your Honour. It

2 doesn't seem to be happening to me.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just ask whether there is another

4 earphone available or whether it's a structural problem.

5 Let me just see. Same thing happens so it must be the system

6 rather than the earphone. I'll try to survive and see whether something

7 can be done about it in the first break.

8 The list distributed by Mr. Registrar starts at P1024, so 1024,

9 and goes up to 1033.1. Mr. Josse, is there any objection against

10 admission in evidence of any of these documents?

11 MR. JOSSE: I object to P1031.

12 JUDGE ORIE: 1031. That's the excerpts from the book, It Is a

13 Crime to Forget a Crime. Is that ...

14 MR. JOSSE: That's correct.

15 JUDGE ORIE: For the reasons?

16 MR. JOSSE: Well, my learned friend put one extremely small

17 passage in that book to the witness. He simply asked the witness to adopt

18 the fact that his name effectively appeared in the book, having

19 appeared -- having attended a meeting. That can't be a proper basis for

20 admission of the exhibit, in my submission.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon?

22 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I introduced that exhibit to attempt to

23 refresh the witness's recollection. It did not refresh his recollection.

24 I have no objection to it being removed.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So you withdraw P1031.

Page 19872

1 MR. HARMON: Correct.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know, Mr. Registrar, whether we would leave

3 that number open or whether we would use it again, because it would

4 disturb a bit the sequence of the presentation of evidence if we would --

5 [Trial chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will move up. That means that 1031 will now

7 be what appears on the list as 1032, that is the regular combat report of

8 the 9th of June. Then 1033 will then be -- on the list will then be 1032.

9 So it just moves up.

10 Then the Chamber decides that the exhibits ranging from P1024 up

11 to and including P1032 are admitted into evidence.

12 Mr. Harmon, tab 26 and tab 27 did not yet receive an exhibit

13 number.

14 Mr. Registrar, would you --

15 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 26, Your Honours, which was the regular combat

16 report dated 15 June 1992 would be given Prosecution Exhibit number P1033.

17 Tab 27, which was the article quoting Jean-Claude Concolato would be given

18 Prosecution Exhibit P1034.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any objections, Mr. Josse?

20 MR. JOSSE: As far as 1034 is concerned, I take exactly the same

21 point. Didn't -- the witness didn't accept a word that was in the

22 article.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon?

24 MR. HARMON: We would, Your Honour, request that it be admitted.

25 It is for the Court to give it whatever weight it feels appropriate. It

Page 19873

1 directly contradicted the witness and it's again up to the Chamber to make

2 a decision as to what weight it should be -- it should receive.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could at least before we give a decision on

4 this matter, receive a bit more information about where the document stems

5 from, who obtained it, when it was obtained, et cetera, et cetera, so that

6 we have at least some assistance.

7 MR. HARMON: I may be able to assist the Chamber now with that

8 information.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you may do it. If you've got it there, then

10 please tell us. If not, we'll hear from you at a later stage.

11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'll make submissions on that later.

12 This is an associated press article. That's what I can tell you.

13 It was from the wire service. Where we precisely received it and when we

14 received it I will submit to the Chamber but that's -- the source of the

15 information is the associated press.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Well, as you know, Mr. Harmon, this is

17 not a trial by media, but a trial by hearing witnesses, et cetera, so the

18 Chamber is always very cautious if it comes to press reports although it

19 has not denied admission of it. But at least we should have proper

20 information whether it was obtained by whom it was obtained and -- so

21 we'll hear from you.

22 Mr. Harmon, there was no objection by the Defence but you offered,

23 since the P1024 was not -- that's the Holiday Inn receipt, was not

24 complete or there was some confusion about that, that you would provide us

25 at least with a new copy.

Page 19874

1 MR. HARMON: I have those in hand, Your Honour, and I can provide

2 you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse if there would be any problem with them,

4 the decision of the Chamber could be reversed.

5 MR. JOSSE: Could I say, the Court will find that generally, when

6 I'm sitting in this chair, that type of thing, in other words, the

7 document isn't quite complete, that won't be a ground of objection that I

8 will take.


10 MR. JOSSE: My grounds of objection will be exactly along the

11 lines that I've hitherto taken. I won't take technical points like that

12 in general.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And I take it, Mr. Josse, that you do understand that

14 if the Chamber is provided with evidence that it would like to have a

15 consistent set of documents and complete set of documents.

16 MR. JOSSE: I wasn't in any way undermining anything that you --

17 the Court says.

18 JUDGE ORIE: No. I did not understand your observation to mean

19 that it's not important to have full and complete and consistent sets.

20 MR. JOSSE: I wasn't suggesting that. I understand the Court's

21 concern and I understand the registry's concern but our concern,

22 defending, can often be slightly different for understandable reasons.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand.

24 Then I think, Mr. Harmon, tab 17 I failed to identify the quoted

25 portion in it and you said that you would check what was under tab 17.

Page 19875

1 MR. HARMON: We have distributed a new copy for Your Honour. We

2 did that yesterday. It is tab -- the document in tab 17 was Prosecution

3 Exhibit 739, I'm told.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And it was 1st of June rather than the 9th of June,

5 wasn't it?

6 MR. HARMON: It is the 1st of June, Your Honour, that's correct,

7 the 1st of June 1992. It's a 1st Krajina Corps report on the current

8 political and security situation.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. I'll check during the break

10 whether your quote appears in what is now P739 which seems very much the

11 same as I had already under tab 17.

12 MR. HARMON: Your Honour my quotation, I remember it, was on the

13 second -- the third full paragraph. It ended with a sentence those

14 departing will not be allowed to return.

15 MR. JOSSE: Could I say, Your Honour, I don't have these documents

16 in front of me but I had cause during yesterday's hearing to have 739 sent

17 through to me from my office, and it was identical to the document that

18 was in the bundle.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but, no, the question is whether the quote

20 appears there. I couldn't find it. I'll check that during the first

21 break and not spend any time on it at this very moment.

22 Then the marked map, of course, needs not to be, perhaps not to be

23 admitted into evidence but it was a document which was -- the sketch, C1,

24 was produced initially by me and marked by the witness and is in evidence

25 now, unless there is any objection, as C1. I hear no objection.

Page 19876

1 Then finally the map, the detailed map with the stadium in the

2 left bottom corner has not been provided with a number yet.

3 Mr. Registrar, that would be?

4 MR. JOSSE: I think the Registrar and I discussed that earlier.

5 We worked -- I think he wasn't sure whether to give it a P number or a

6 D number. I'm entirely neutral on the subject, Your Honour.

7 MR. HARMON: As am I, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: It was provided by the Prosecution, although on the

9 request of the claim so therefore we would give it a P number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: P1035, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Then we go to the

12 D exhibits. There we start with D115. That's the report on the work of

13 the Bosanski Novi municipality Crisis Staff. Any objection?

14 MR. HARMON: No objection.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The next one, D116, the photograph, three

16 photographs, D116 A, B, and C. Any objection?

17 MR. HARMON: No objection, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then D117 is a document related to the 1560 persons

19 handed over to the International Committee of the Red Cross. It was

20 marked for identification or --

21 MR. HARMON: My recollection, Your Honour, is this document was

22 shown to the witness; he could not give any indication in respect of those

23 1560 persons. He knew nothing about that transfer. We suggested that it

24 be marked for identification only. Therefore we would object to its

25 admission at this point.

Page 19877


2 MR. JOSSE: That's my recollection and I'm content with that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Even if marked for identification,

4 Mr. Registrar, do we assign numbers to those documents that were marked

5 for identification?

6 [Trial chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the document is marked for identification

8 and the Registrar will further inform us about numbering of those

9 documents that were marked for identification.

10 Having dealt with this, there is one issue I would like to see

11 whether we can settle that right away, Mr. Josse, and that is the document

12 which could not be translated because it was illegible. That was -- let

13 me just see. I think it was D116.

14 MR. JOSSE: 114, I think.

15 JUDGE ORIE: 114.

16 MR. JOSSE: Sorry, Your Honour, 106, D106. Again very helpfully

17 the Registrar showed it to me earlier and I asked him to have it available

18 for Your Honours to see. I understand the position that we sent it back

19 to the CLSS and asked them to translate those parts that they were able to

20 translate and they've been unable to assist at this stage. In our

21 submission, the Court should invite the CLSS to translate those parts that

22 are legible. Most of the document appears reasonably legible.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I suggest the following approach? Both

24 parties are assisted by persons who speak and read B/C/S. Could those who

25 are assisting the parties advise counsel on whether they could agree on

Page 19878

1 the legible portions of this text? Because it seems to me that quite some

2 of the text is legible. I fully accept and I fully appreciate the caution

3 taken by the -- by CLSS. At the same time it appears to me that there

4 should be a solution for at least 80, if not 90 or 95 per cent of the

5 text. Would the parties see whether they could agree on what is legible

6 and what the text says? And perhaps for those purposes, create a text

7 showing what they understand the original to present?

8 MR. JOSSE: And then send that to the CLSS?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then to send that to the CLSS and see whether the

10 CLSS on the basis of this agreement among the parties could proceed in

11 perhaps translating the text the parties provided to CLSS so that they are

12 not responsible any more for the right interpretation of what appears in

13 the original. And that that's then, upon an agreement of the parties, the

14 Chamber could consider whether or not to admit the original text and

15 perhaps give a number to the agreed text. Because then if the text would

16 produced in Cyrillic, then, of course, the Chamber is in a position also

17 to see whether it can find more or less the same letters in Cyrillic in

18 the agreed document compared to the original one so that we take the

19 responsibility based upon an agreement between the parties.

20 MR. JOSSE: The Defence is certainly agreeable to that.

21 MR. HARMON: As are we, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the Chamber waits to give a decision and

23 does not urge at this moment the Defence to withdraw D106.

24 Having dealt with these documents, it might be that later on

25 today, the Chamber will pay further attention to some pending matters such

Page 19879

1 as experts, et cetera, but at this moment we would like to proceed to hear

2 the next witness unless there is anything the parties would like to raise.

3 MR. HARMON: There is, Your Honour. There are three other items

4 relating to the testimony of Mr. Pasic and the exhibits relating to those

5 yesterday. Your Honour, tab 20 which was the information of the 8th of

6 June there was an issue as to the legibility of the signature. When we

7 recessed, I informed the Chamber that I would attempt to get a more

8 legible copy. We endeavoured to do that. We have a slightly more legible

9 copy which we can supply to the Registrar and will do so today. In

10 respect of Prosecution Exhibit 1030 which was a handwritten list of names

11 omitting three words at the top which was read into the record, what those

12 words were, we now have a new translation and we will supply the Chamber

13 with, that retranslation including the three words.

14 JUDGE ORIE: From what was said yesterday, Mr. Harmon, it did not

15 give me the impression that it was an attendance list but, rather, the

16 text suggested something else.

17 MR. HARMON: Well recognition whatever it is, Your Honour, I think

18 the record should be complete and the document as part of the evidence

19 should have that proper translation in it.

20 There the is the issue of contextual documents. I'm not sure when

21 the Chamber wants to raise that issue. I only have one contextual

22 document I wanted to submit to the Chamber.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Would that one be a contextual document not appearing

24 on the list.

25 MR. HARMON: It would appear on the list. It's tab 31, Your

Page 19880

1 Honour, that's an overview of data of the ethnic composition of the

2 municipalities from 1991 to 1995. It was prepared by the Ministry of

3 Internal Affairs, and it reflects the ethnic data of Muslim, Serbs, Croats

4 in the municipality both in 1991 and 1995.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And -- that's comparative. It's not the -- it's not

6 the census results.

7 MR. HARMON: No. This was a document prepared by the Ministry of

8 Internal Affairs.


10 Then Mr. Josse --

11 MR. HARMON: I have a copy of it. I can show it to Mr. Josse at

12 some point in time when I'm absent, Mr. Tieger can come to a resolution on

13 that but that's what it is. And there is one final matter, Your Honour,

14 and that is --

15 JUDGE ORIE: So Mr. Josse, we'll hear from you within one or two

16 days whether there is any objection. It seems to be a very --

17 MR. JOSSE: I'd like to think -- one further look at it bearing in

18 mind the opportunity has been -- the offer has been made. I very much

19 doubt whether I'll object.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. How much time would you need.

21 MR. JOSSE: I actually would happily do it at the next break and

22 respond immediately thereafter, so long as Mr. Tieger is prepared to

23 remain in court and show me the document.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I suggested one or two days so that would do, within

25 two days.

Page 19881

1 MR. HARMON: The final matter, Your Honour, is during the course

2 of the testimony of Mr. Pasic in December, I'm referring to the transcript

3 at page 19700. Referring to lines 7 through 9, Mr. Pasic had been asked a

4 number of questions about what proceedings had happened in courts in the

5 municipality of Bosanski Novi.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That was about judgements given by the Bosanski Novi

7 court.

8 MR. HARMON: Correct.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And the Banja Luka court as well.

10 MR. HARMON: Correct.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any further information about that.

12 MR. HARMON: Well, Your Honour, at page 19700 it said the Court

13 was interested in receiving information. I do have additional information

14 about that. The question I have is the form of the submission because two

15 things I'd like to inform the Chamber of. One, we prepared a mission,

16 considerable time ago, I think possibly even before this trial started.

17 It may have been during the course of this trial, but in any event there

18 were contacts made with the judge in that municipality. We asked that

19 judge to provide us with all files of a particular nature. Our staff

20 members went to review those files and we have the conclusions of that.

21 In addition to that, once Your Honour had raised the issue that you were

22 interested I recontacted people in our office, our field office, and they

23 have made contact with the Court once again and we will have additional

24 information that we need to -- that I don't have at hand because it's only

25 now being collected. But I'm prepared to submit that both to the Defence

Page 19882

1 and to Your Honours, specifically as well in relation to the one case that

2 was mentioned by Mr. Pasic dealing with the killing of a Muslim by -- I

3 think his name was Husein Hotic so we have that data or I expect to

4 receive that data and I'm prepared to submit that to the Chamber but the

5 question is in what form. I'm prepared to submit it likewise to my

6 colleagues from the Defence.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If you have the material available I take it, of

8 course, I do not know whether it's exculpatory yes or no but at least if

9 you since the Chamber asked for it that you should disclose it to the

10 Defence. If Prosecution and Defence could reach an agreement on how to

11 present that material, not whether to present that material but how to

12 present that material, because the Chamber has shown an interest in

13 receiving it. So therefore, if it would not come, we might even order one

14 of the parties to produce that material. But if you could find a way of

15 how to introduce it and agree on that, the Chamber would like to know. If

16 not, then the Chamber, of course, depending on the -- of the kind of

17 material, is it a report drafted by a person which could testify or is it

18 just records of court proceedings, are these complete records, are they

19 incomplete records, depending on the content of the material the Chamber

20 will then give you guidance as to how to introduce that.

21 MR. HARMON: That's helpful, Your Honour. Thank you. We'll

22 consult on that and if I could have this document which is tab 31, the

23 census or the material on ethnic structure of the municipality passed to

24 Mr. Josse, then he can examine it and give Mr. Tieger his response and if

25 he could return that copy to me I would appreciate it because it's my

Page 19883

1 records.

2 Thank you very much, Your Honour, and if I may be excused.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are.

4 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

5 [Trial chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, are you ready to call your next witness?

7 MR. JOSSE: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures required?

9 MR. JOSSE: No.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That would be Mr. Kapetina.

11 MR. JOSSE: Kapetina, yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Kapetina, yes.

13 Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into the

14 courtroom?

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Kapetina, I presume.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kapetina, before giving evidence, the Rules of

19 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

20 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. May I

21 invite you to make that declaration, of which the text has already been

22 handed out to you by Madam Usher.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


Page 19884

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kapetina. Please be seated.

3 Mr. Kapetina, you'll first be examined by Mr. Josse, counsel for

4 the Defence.

5 Mr. Josse, you may proceed.

6 Examined by Mr. Josse:

7 Q. You're Dragan Kapetina; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. A leading question, I apologise.

10 MR. TIEGER: I don't know if anyone else is experiencing that

11 difficulty but I'm getting some fairly oppressive feedback.

12 MR. JOSSE: Ditto.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that seems to be what we used to call the

14 Mexican dog, I think, which means circular sound. Is there anything which

15 is open which should not be open?

16 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


18 Q. I'm going to ask you a series of leading questions, if I may,

19 Mr. Kapetina, dealing with your background. You studied politics at

20 university; is that correct?

21 A. That's right. I studied in Sarajevo.

22 Q. And you were a member of the League of Communists?

23 A. Yes. I was a member of the League of Communists.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I think we need the assistance of the technicians

25 because whoever speaks there seems to be a problem, and it distracts our

Page 19885

1 attention from what we -- do we need a break for the technicians to look

2 into the matter or --

3 [Trial chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kapetina, I should explain to you that this is

5 the first day this newly renovated courtroom is used and we are facing

6 some technical problems. If they cannot be resolved right away, we'll

7 have the first break.

8 We are facing the same problem. Is it just a matter of two

9 microphones? That's a possibility. Could we create a situation in which

10 only one microphone is open in the whole of the courtroom? I have mine

11 open. If everyone closes.

12 MR. JOSSE: No, because -- I suppose it's just about possible to

13 have the advocate and his -- turn his or her microphone on or off, so it's

14 possible, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So it wasn't -- it was one of the earphones which

16 then sent the signal back into one of the microphones.

17 MR. JOSSE: I think that's all right, now, isn't it?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we have a -- we can proceed with this. There

19 is no whistling any more, it seems.

20 Mr. Josse.

21 Mr. Kapetina, I apologise for it but that's what happens in a

22 high-tech environment.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


25 Q. After you graduated, you got a scholarship with a building firm

Page 19886

1 known as GP Bosna in Sarajevo?

2 A. Yes. While I was studying I had a scholarship from the Bosna firm

3 in Sarajevo.

4 Q. And what you did for them was effectively organised their defence

5 obligations? Would that be a fair summary?

6 A. Yes. I worked in the civil engineering firm of Bosna and worked

7 in total national defence, that is to say the preparation of that company

8 for defence purposes.

9 Q. And then in 1984 to 1985, you got a job with the republic

10 Secretariat for National Defence in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 A. Yes. I responded to an advertisement, a competition, and was

12 taken in at the republican Secretariat for National Defence in Sarajevo.

13 Q. You were promoted in 1990, just before the multi-party elections,

14 to the job of chief inspector of the republic?

15 A. Yes. That's right. In 1990, I was appointed by the executive

16 council of Bosnia-Herzegovina as the chief inspector for national defence

17 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And that was before the multi-party elections

18 took place in Bosnia.

19 Q. The evidence you're about to give will focus on the two or three

20 years after you had taken on that job, but at some point in time, in 1992,

21 the Court will hear that you took a job in the newly created Ministry of

22 Defence of the Republika Srpska in Pale.

23 A. Yes, that's right. From May 1992, I worked on professional

24 matters within the defence Ministry of the Serbian Republic of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina at Pale or rather Mount Jahorina.

Page 19887

1 Q. And you in fact became Deputy Minister of defence after Dayton?

2 A. That's right. In 1997 the government of Republika Srpska

3 appointed me Deputy Minister of defence of Republika Srpska.

4 Q. In 1998, you got a job where you were involved in mine removal?

5 A. Yes. In 1998, I established a non-governmental organisation for

6 doing away with mines and explosives and it had its headquarters in Brcko.

7 Q. And in the year 2000 you got your present job which was working

8 for the council for the Presidency where you were an adviser in relation

9 to defence matters?

10 A. Yes, that's right. As of 2001 to the present day, I have been

11 working as an adviser for defence and security, a member of the Presidency

12 of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Republika Srpska.

13 Q. I want to go back, if I may, then, to the job that you took as

14 chief inspector, but before I do that, it might just be worth mentioning

15 the 1990 elections. Did you stand in those elections as a candidate?

16 A. Yes. I did take part in those elections, in 1990, at a local

17 level, at a level of the Hadzici municipality and I was on the list of

18 candidates for the Social Democratic Party for the local parliament, that

19 is a party which was the legal follower of the League of Communists. And,

20 of course, the party fared ill at the elections in Hadzici. I did not

21 make the local parliament.

22 Q. As I said a moment ago, let's turn to your professional life, and

23 this job as chief inspector of the republic. Please tell the Court what

24 that job involved.

25 A. In conformity with the law, pertaining to total national defence

Page 19888

1 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and pursuant to the rules of the republican

2 Secretariat for national defence, later on the Ministry of Defence of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I as the chief inspector in the republic had the duty

4 of implementing supervision over the implementation of the federal law and

5 total national defence and supervision over the implementation of the

6 republican law on total national defence, as well as the federal law on

7 responsibilities with respect to military service and supervision over the

8 implementation of all bills and by-laws enacted on the basis of the three

9 laws mentioned above. In addition to that, I -- it was my duty to perform

10 inspection and supervision of defence preparations in the civilian

11 structures of society in Bosnia-Herzegovina and this meant to all intents

12 and purposes supervision over the plans of development for defence as well

13 as the defence plans themselves and plans for extraordinary situations.

14 To make this clearer to the Court, this meant that the civilian

15 organisations in Bosnia-Herzegovina for planning were the republican

16 organs, municipal organs, enterprises and other legal persons, as well as

17 sociopolitical organisations in local communities. Of course, I should

18 like to remind the Court that I was not authorised to perform supervision

19 over combat readiness and the situation in units belonging to the Yugoslav

20 People's Army and Territorial Defence. This was done by inspectors at the

21 level of the federal state.

22 Q. How did you retain this job after the multi-party elections?

23 A. I continued working as the chief republican inspector,

24 continuously from 1991, although I wasn't appointed to that most by the

25 government of the republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. However, I should like

Page 19889

1 to stress that the government did not appoint anybody to that post so I

2 continued to work on those jobs. Of course, I waited for my appointment

3 to the function or to be relieved of my duties. The republican inspectors

4 do their work according to an annual programme prepared by the chief

5 inspector and okayed by the Defence Minister. And in January I myself

6 prepared a programme for inspection supervision relating to 1991 and I did

7 not receive permission to work towards the implementation of that

8 programme. I didn't know the reasons for that.

9 So I prepared a second version of the programme for that same

10 year, which I handed over in February. I did not receive an answer once

11 again, nor was the okay given to the programme by the Minister of Defence

12 and as time was running out, I was forced to prepare a third programme

13 which I handed over in the month of March. On the basis of that third

14 programme, I was going to implement supervision at the level of the

15 republic. I'd like to tell the court that I wasn't the sole person in

16 charge -- the sole person appointed to perform supervision. I was in

17 charge of the whole business but 10 to 12 inspectors are involved in the

18 whole process from the various ministries and organs of administration of

19 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina who took part with me in the job of

20 supervision and they are all authorised inspectors just like I was myself.

21 So much for me.

22 Q. Let's briefly examine who were the leading personnel in the

23 ministry after the elections. The Defence Minister was a man called Jerko

24 Doko; is that right?

25 A. Yes, that's right. The minister was the Defence was Jerko Doko, a

Page 19890

1 candidate and member of the Croatian democratic community, HDZ.

2 Q. What was the name of his deputy, please?

3 A. His deputy was Hasim Begovic and he was a candidate or rather he

4 was appointed to that post by the Party of Democratic Action, and before

5 that post he was a professional officer, he was a colonel, in fact, of the

6 Yugoslav People's Army.

7 Q. And you have already described in the answer you gave a moment

8 ago, the difficulties you had in carrying out your job. Who did you put

9 those difficulties down to?

10 A. Well, I did not complete my answer and inform the Court about the

11 annual programme for inspection and supervision. Anyway, after the

12 version I handed over in March I was called by Minister Doko to his

13 offices to his cabinet, and I responded to that invitation and went to see

14 him. And he told me that he had seen the earlier versions prepared by me

15 but, of course, he didn't read through any of those versions. And then he

16 told me in friendly terms he said, "I cannot allow you to work on matters

17 of inspection supervision in the republic for the simple -- for a very

18 simple reason, because then I wouldn't have completed the task and job

19 that I had come to the ministry to do." I said to him, "Well, don't we

20 have the same goals in the ministry, the two of us?" And that was to

21 further the programme of the Ministry of Defence in conformity with the

22 law. And to that, he said that they were not the priorities of the

23 Defence Ministry and that he could not allow me to implement the programme

24 for inspection, supervision, that he wasn't going to sign the programme

25 but that he could assign other tasks to me which I could be involved in,

Page 19891

1 and that I should forget inspection and supervision and the programmes

2 that I had prepared. Of coarse I wanted to know what these other tasks

3 and jobs were because it was a matter of my own job and the work that I

4 had to do. He said that these would not be constant tasks but would be ad

5 hoc tasks from one case to the next, and then I asked him what my first

6 job and task would be, and he said, "Well, let's look at the specifics.

7 You see the women that are protesting at the moment because the recruits

8 are being sent to do their military service. They keep up their

9 demonstrations in front of the building, in front of the executive council

10 building and assembly, but in that group of women, we have some women who

11 are Bosniak, who are Muslims and are Croats but there is not a single

12 Serbian among them. So your task would be to rally four or five Serb

13 women to help them, to write them an appropriate speech, and to have them

14 join in with the other women, to write some slogans for them. So that

15 would be a start. And we would pay you for that separately, of course."

16 Without thinking, I said that any further -- I said I didn't want

17 to do that kind of work because I didn't get my rating in the Ministry of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina to do work like that, and he said, "Right, fine. Then

19 we've finished our conversation." Then he phoned up the vice premier of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Miodrag Simovic, and then he said to me, "As of today,

21 Dragan Kapetina will no longer be engaged in the Ministry of Defence and

22 he can be placed at your disposal, Mr. Vice Premier, if you need him."

23 The vice premier, of course, asked me to come and see him because he

24 didn't know what was going on. He didn't know of my conversation with

25 Mr. Doko. So after talking to Doko, I went to the offices of

Page 19892

1 vice-president Simovic and told him all about what had happened, and he

2 said, "Well, that's how things stand. I can do nothing about that. You

3 can expect no protection from the government. You must come to terms with

4 what has happened and we'll see what we are going to do in future." And

5 that's how it was.

6 Q. So let's be clear about this. Were you able to carry out any

7 inspections at all?

8 A. Well, I had to compile a programme and implement some inspection

9 and I did have all the conditions to do that, inspection and supervision

10 are important functions of a defence ministry because through inspection

11 you gain an insight into the state of affairs with respect to the

12 preparation of plans and implementation of laws both in the republic and

13 the municipalities. So it was my duty to file a report to the government

14 every year, the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the work I had done

15 in inspection and supervision. So I had to insist that a programme be

16 enacted and supervision and inspection be performed regardless of the

17 situation that prevailed in Bosnia-Herzegovina because at the end of the

18 year, as I say, I had to report to the government on the situation with

19 respect to preparing the republic's defence.

20 Q. Again, going back to the answer you gave a moment ago --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, could you invite the witness to answer

22 your last question? Because although he spent ten lines he didn't say

23 whether he was able to carry out any inspections.

24 Did you finally carry out any inspections, yes or no? That's what

25 was asked.

Page 19893

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. At the beginning of 1991, all

2 the conditions were in place for inspection to go ahead and even become

3 intensified in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And were they carried out, these inspections?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those inspections were supposed to

6 be carried out in the municipalities at that time, and in

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time there were 109 municipalities including the

8 city of Sarajevo, and, of course, the inspections were to be held at the

9 republican level and republican organisation level, and in enterprises of

10 special importance to the republic and its defence.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No. Now you, for the third time, told us whether the

12 conditions were fine, what should have been done, but the question was

13 whether these inspections were ever carried out at whatever level. If you

14 first start saying that they were carried out and you can explain or if

15 not, then there is no need for further explanation. Or at least --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the previous year, that is to say

17 1990, in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, inspection was carried out in

18 30 municipalities. Supervision. And it was planned that every year in

19 the republic, inspection and supervision should be carried out in at least

20 30 municipalities so that during a four-year term of office, inspections

21 will have been carried out through the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

22 all its municipalities. And in my programme for 1991 I adopted the is a

23 same methods, planning at least inspections in at least 30 municipalities

24 and I'd like to mention once again we saw the need to hold inspections

25 because in 1990 there were some amendments to the law on defence in

Page 19894

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kapetina, no one asked you about the usefulness,

3 the necessity, et cetera. The simple thing we would like to know is, and

4 you told us for 1990, 30 -- in 30 municipalities the inspection was

5 carried out. 1991, how many?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in a single municipality did

7 inspections take place. I did not implement the programme at all because

8 I didn't get the go ahead.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We didn't ask for the reasons at this moment. If we

10 are interested to know, or if Mr. Josse is interested, he'll ask you. So

11 we spend approximately four to five minutes now on a very simple

12 question: Were these inspections carried out? Your answer is in 1990,

13 still 30 inspections were carried out, whereas for 1991, no inspection was

14 carried out. Quite simple. Just facts.

15 Please proceed.


17 Q. A few minutes ago, you were telling us about the difficulties that

18 you were facing from Mr. Doko. Why do you think Mr. Doko was being so

19 obstructive?

20 A. At the beginning, I didn't know why he was obstructing me in

21 performing my regular duties and tasks. However, in talking to my

22 colleagues, assistant Defence Ministers, specifically the assistant who

23 was appointed on behalf of the HDZ, Croatian democratic community, whom I

24 complained to and said that I was not being allowed to do my job by the

25 minister, he told me -- well, I asked him whether he had knowledge of any

Page 19895

1 other plan being implemented at the level of the defence ministry, and he

2 said that minister Doko had been given the task of destroying the units of

3 the Yugoslav People's Army on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina; to all

4 intents and purposes, to break them up. And that of the -- and to make of

5 the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina a separate armed force of

6 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Of course, I asked him if that was

7 what was being done, then where are the Serbs in all this? And where is

8 my place in all this? And as he was a good friend of mine, he

9 said, "Well, in a situation of this kind, in the kind of situation that we

10 have in the ministry today, you are being treated as a member of the

11 blues." And the blue colour was assigned to the enemy at that particular

12 time.

13 Q. And as things became clearer what did it seem to you was the aim,

14 the ultimate aim, of the minister?

15 A. Well, later on, I came to the same conclusions, the same I heard

16 from my colleague the assistant minister, that that was in fact the goal,

17 the minister's goal, and not only the minister's goal but that was in fact

18 the overall goal of the coalition that was being formed at the level of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say a coalition between the Muslim or

20 rather the Muslim-Croat coalition, the coalition between the HDZ and the

21 SDA parties. And as time went on, I saw that concrete steps were being

22 taken along those lines, and that problems were being created and

23 conflicts with the Yugoslav People's Army, the children or recruits were

24 not being sent to the JNA to do their military service, for example, that

25 was one of the steps, and that conflicts were being forged in places in

Page 19896

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina between the population and the JNA and the employees of

2 the Bosnia-Herzegovina ministries who were former JNAs were placed at the

3 disposal of the JNA or the republican TO staff or, rather, I had knowledge

4 that there was a project being worked on to create an armed force of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina out of the existing Territorial Defence forces but

6 without the members of Serb ethnicity, without the Serbs taking part in

7 that Territorial Defence.

8 Q. Now, in 1991, towards the middle of the year, you really decided

9 to go public on some of the difficulties that you were facing within the

10 ministry; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's right. Having held consultations with the vice

12 premier, Miodrag Simovic, I decided to send a written caution to the

13 top-most state organs saying this they were behaving unlawfully and

14 unconstitutionally, and those organs were first and foremost the

15 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which numbered seven members of the

16 time, then the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I sent them written

17 warnings telling them that they weren't working in conformity with the

18 federal and republican laws and that they were taking authorisations upon

19 themselves that were legitimately given over to other organisations and

20 organs and I told them without mincing words who was violating federal

21 laws. So this warning of mine was not accepted by them or was not met by

22 them in the way I had in mind, the way they should have taken this on

23 board because the government did not --

24 Q. Just pause. Let's deal with the reaction to these letters in one

25 moment's time. Let's deal with the appeal or the letters that you wrote.

Page 19897

1 Before --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, before doing so, could the witness clarify

3 the ethnicity of Mr. Simovic, that's still unclear to me whereas the --

4 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us whether he was a Croat, a Muslim, a

6 Serb?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Miodrag Simovic was the vice

8 Prime Minister, and he was appointed on behalf of the Serbian democratic

9 party which means that he is a Serb.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just say, if you will allow

12 me, Mr. Simovic was a particularly in charge of defence, the internal

13 affairs and general administration in the government of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is why I was told to report to him and to

15 consult with him. That's what I wanted to say.


17 Q. Now, the letter that you wrote, did anyone ask you to write it?

18 Did you come under any pressure to write it?

19 A. Nobody forced me or talked me into writing this letter. I simply

20 concluded that I might end up having problems if I didn't inform the

21 highest republican organs that there was no inspection in the republic.

22 If I had waited until the end of the year I should have submitted my

23 report then and I was in no position to submit any reports because that

24 report would have been a blank piece of paper. That's why I decided to

25 write this warning letter and I only consulted with Mr. Simovic, the vice

Page 19898

1 premier, in order to see whether I would face any consequences if I did

2 that.

3 Q. Now, to the best of your knowledge, there are no copies still in

4 existence of this letter, is that right?

5 A. I did not see a copy of that letter. That letter stayed in my

6 office. Of course, it should have ended up in the Presidency, in the

7 government, but I believe that the media in Bosnia-Herzegovina published

8 parts of that letter of mine - I'm talking about the written media - and

9 they were also conveyed by the television, but not in prime time, but in

10 the first news programme between 1800 and 1900 hours.

11 MR. JOSSE: Could the witness be given the Defence Exhibit bundle,

12 please, and could everyone turn to tab 5?

13 Yes, I'm trying to get into better habits here, could I ask for an

14 exhibit number straight away.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 5, Your Honours, will be D118.


18 Q. Now, if we look, Mr. Kapetina, at the original B/C/S version, we

19 see in the top right-hand corner an article and we see in Latin script

20 your name, Dragan Kapetina, don't we?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And just tell us about this publication. We see that at the

23 bottom right-hand corner. What's this newspaper called?

24 A. This was published in a paper called Narodna Armija, people's

25 army.

Page 19899

1 Q. And did this -- where was this newspaper published, in what part

2 of the country?

3 A. I believe that Narodna Armija was published in Belgrade. Prior to

4 that I had not seen this text but I know that the printed media in

5 Sarajevo also published parts of my warning letter.

6 Q. Which -- just dealing with that, which Bosnian newspapers are you

7 aware of your letter being reported in?

8 A. As far as I can remember, this was published in Oslobodjenje.

9 Q. Yes. Now, what -- it's a small extract. It's quite important so

10 I am going to ask you to read through this, please. Read the whole

11 article, including the heading of the article, please.

12 A. Yes. Of course, this is just an author's remark and the title is

13 "encouraging lawlessness." And the text reads the decision of the BiH

14 government that delays the application of the law and changes in amendment

15 to the law on military service and law on changes and amendments to the

16 law on all people's Defence in the territory of BH are unconstitutional

17 and illegal because the BH government does not have the competency to

18 declare null and void and to delay the application of federal laws and

19 other regulations passed by the competent organs. It is in the exclusive

20 competence of the SFRY assembly which passed them to declare null and void

21 or to delay the application of the aforementioned to federal laws. The

22 decision of the BiH government which demands that military service and

23 mobilisation in the republic be carried out in the same manner as before,

24 that is in a manner not legally regulated, until further notice, is also

25 legal. By this the government directly encourages lawlessness and anarchy

Page 19900

1 in the field of military service and mobilisation.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, before we continue, it appears to me

3 looking at the original that this is a part of a larger publication, with

4 two additions to it in these frames. So therefore by just translating

5 this portion we miss the context in which Mr. Kapetina is quoted in this

6 article. Have you considered the remainder -- first of all, is my

7 impression right? Or.

8 MR. JOSSE: Let -- may I deal with it this way initially?



11 Q. Mr. Kapetina, you -- have you had a chance to look at everything

12 that is written on the piece of paper in front of you? In other words,

13 the newspaper article that is -- that dominates the page that you have in

14 front of you?

15 A. Unfortunately, I have not read it before I saw it here, and I

16 cannot comment upon the entire text that has been published on this page.

17 However, the essence of this text and what the author wanted to say is

18 that the Presidency and the government do one thing, and the chief

19 republican inspector warns them that what they do is not in keeping with

20 the law.

21 Q. Now, just try and answer my question. His is an example of why

22 it's important to try and answer the question. If you didn't understand

23 it then I apologise. The question was: I know that you've been given

24 this piece of paper in advance of your coming into the witness box,

25 correct? This piece of paper.

Page 19901

1 A. Excuse me, what is your question?

2 Q. Perhaps if you would look at me for a moment. Have you read the

3 article that I am pointing to at the moment? Yes or no.

4 A. I repeat: I actually read the second part of the text here when I

5 was preparing for this testimony. I had not seen this text from Narodna

6 Armija before. However, I realise that in addition to the fact that the

7 Presidency and the government did things unlawfully, they had not

8 respected the agreements that I had reached with the federal organs. It

9 says here that there was an agreement.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kapetina, may I again ask you to answer to the

11 question? The question was whether you had read the article Mr. Josse was

12 pointing at that was the whole of the page. Then you said I actually read

13 the second part of the text. So your answer is partially yes. And no one

14 yet asked you to explain to us what you realised, I don't know on the

15 basis of what, but you seem to have realised something. And please focus

16 on the questions, answer them, and then whatever additional information is

17 needed, Mr. Josse will certainly ask you for it.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


20 Q. Mr. Kapetina, as I've already said, I am aware that you were given

21 this piece of paper a few days ago when you arrived in The Hague. And, of

22 course, you have read the passage in the top right-hand corner that

23 contains your name. What we are interested in is the rest of this page.

24 Have you read the article that forms the bulk of this page, yes or no?

25 A. I've read the entire article but I'm not in a position to analyse

Page 19902

1 it thoroughly and to draw up its concept.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kapetina, no one asked you to analyse. If

3 Mr. Josse will ask you, you just say, "I can't do that." Wait until the

4 next question.

5 Please proceed.


7 Q. My second question was not going to be whether you can analyse it

8 but whether you can summarise it. If the answer is no, say so.

9 A. I'm not in a position to do so.

10 [Trial chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, the Defence is invited to provide a full

12 translation because there seems to be some relation, the name "Doko"

13 appears often. It seems from at first sight --

14 MR. JOSSE: It will be submitted beyond a shadow of a doubt. I

15 should say as is clear from -- this isn't a criticism. It's quite the

16 opposite. As is clear from the English translation, the translation that

17 the Court has was provided to the Defence by the OTP.


19 MR. JOSSE: And I'm grateful to them for disclosing it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.


22 Q. I want to move on to an intercept next. I don't know -- again,

23 I'm reliant on my learned friend and his assistant.

24 MR. TIEGER: I don't know what time the Court intends to break but

25 if we are moving to an intercept this might be an appropriate time to do

Page 19903

1 so and then we can have it set up when we resume.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, we are now on our way. If we would have a

3 break now could we play the intercept afterwards?

4 MR. JOSSE: That would be convenient. If it can't be set up we'll

5 deal with it by the way of transcript. If it can --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I take it that it must be possible in this

7 new, hi-tech environment.

8 MR. TIEGER: I'm advised that -- I leave it to the Court and to

9 Mr. Josse, of course, but I should at least tell the Court it could be

10 played immediately if anyone so desired.

11 JUDGE ORIE: How long is the --

12 MR. JOSSE: I'm afraid I've only read it. I've never listened to

13 it.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It can be played after the break without any problem.

15 Then the witness has freshly in his mind what he heard and can answer

16 your question.

17 MR. JOSSE: I think that would be preferable.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will adjourn until ten minutes past four.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, before I give you an opportunity to

22 continue the examination of the witness, I'd like to deal with a few more

23 procedural matters.

24 The first thing I'd like to do is to say a few more words about

25 the Davidovic issue, because the Chamber would like to draw attention to

Page 19904

1 this issue that arose last summer during the cross-examination of

2 Mr. Davidovic, a witness who was called by the Prosecution. During his

3 cross-examination, Mr. Davidovic was accused of being a liar and a

4 criminal. A number of specific criminal allegations were made against him

5 by the Defence while no corroborating evidence was produced in support.

6 This prompted a discussion between the parties regarding the acceptability

7 of this line of questioning. On the 15th of December 2005, the Chamber

8 filed its written decision on this matter. The Chamber attaches great

9 importance to the dissemination of this decision, bearing in mind that the

10 way the cross-examination was conducted could have a deterrent effect on

11 future witnesses.

12 The Chamber is aware that although the decision is filed publicly,

13 not all members of the public have easy access to the written decisions of

14 the Tribunal. The Chamber therefore has decided to briefly summarise the

15 content of the decision in open court, so this does not replace the

16 decision but it's just a brief non-authoritative summary in order to draw

17 the attention of the public to the decision.

18 The Chamber finds that the Defence has the right to ask a witness

19 pointed questions, even if this process may be an unpleasant experience

20 for the witness. However, the questions must be fair. When a party

21 wishes to confront a witness with what effectively constitutes allegations

22 that the witness has engaged in serious criminal conduct, that party must

23 have reasonable grounds to do so at the time the allegations are made.

24 Reasonable grounds does not require that the party has in its possession

25 incontrovertible evidence of wrongdoing. It does, however, require that

Page 19905

1 they base their accusation on something more than a mere hunch, innuendo,

2 or on unsubstantiated hearsay. Strong language may be acceptable in

3 cross-examination, given that the party has a solid basis for making their

4 allegations that a witness has engaged in criminal activities.

5 Accordingly, the weaker the party's grounds for making such an allegation

6 the more caution is called for on behalf of the cross-examining counsel.

7 In the case of Mr. Davidovic, the Chamber concluded that the

8 Defence had not demonstrated reasonable grounds to formulate the

9 allegations in the manner they did and that therefore the Chamber regrets

10 the Defence's use of these inappropriate phrases.

11 This concludes this summary of the written and already-filed

12 decision in relation to Mr. Davidovic.

13 Then, Mr. Tieger, this is not primarily your problem but could be

14 that of Mr. Harmon. I asked him about tab 17. He then told us that tab

15 17 actually was -- I think it was P793 but let me just check.

16 [Trial chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I reread the transcript and the exhibit

18 was introduced on page 19777 and a quote was given from that exhibit on

19 the next pages. I told Mr. Harmon that I could not find the quote in tab

20 17, and Mr. Harmon then said, it should be a document, 1st Krajina Corps

21 dated the 1st, June the 1st, in tab 17. I told him that I had got a

22 document under tab 17 of the 9th of June and I think today Mr. Harmon

23 provided us again with that same document of the 9th of June, which from

24 what I see does not contain the quote. I asked the Registrar to provide

25 me with -- I think Mr. Harmon provided us with 739. That's again the 9th

Page 19906

1 of June, without the quote he gave. So therefore the puzzle is not

2 solved. And I now check in the original 739 and that's exactly what we

3 find under tab 17. It does not contain the quote and is not a document of

4 the 1st of June where Mr. Harmon indicated he was quoting from a document

5 dated the 1st of June. So providing us again with the same document,

6 which does not contain the quote he gave, does not resolve the matter.

7 Would you please pass this message to Mr. Harmon and then we'll hear from

8 him.

9 MR. TIEGER: Of course, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then next procedural issue. Quite a number of

11 translations have been provided by both parties since already some time.

12 Have the parties checked whether, on the basis of these translations,

13 there are any further objections against admission for these documents

14 which are provisionally admitted and waiting for translation? And I'll

15 just mention them. That's D75, D78, D80, D82H, D82I, D83, D90 to and

16 including 98, D99A to D99V, including the last one. D101 to 105, D107,

17 D108, D110, and D111.

18 I checked that they all appear correctly on the transcript. Now,

19 any objection in relation to these documents or would you need more time.

20 MR. TIEGER: If the Court would grant some limited additional time

21 it would permit me the opportunity to check with everyone who might have

22 been involved with those particular exhibits.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Two days would do?

24 MR. TIEGER: I believe so, Your Honour thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then same question for you, Mr. Josse, in relation to

Page 19907

1 P967, P974, P986 to P991, the latter included, and P993 to 1007, the

2 latter included.

3 MR. JOSSE: Yes, two days, thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Two days. We'll hear from you in two days.

5 Then a few more matters. First of all, expert witnesses. The

6 deadline was set at 13th of January. We have received indication of the

7 subject matter of two expert reports that the Chamber can expect to be

8 presented. We have not yet received any names of experts. Nevertheless,

9 also for the Prosecution to prepare, the Chamber suggests that if you

10 would not have invited the experts to write a report, and they should be

11 presented by the 28th of February, that they hardly have any time to write

12 it any more. So therefore the Chamber urges the defence to indicate that

13 they have invited the experts and which experts to prepare these reports.

14 Mr. Josse, could you say anything about the selection of the

15 experts?

16 MR. JOSSE: Well, if I've been frank with the Court I'd much

17 rather say absolutely nothing at all.

18 JUDGE ORIE: It's media and military.

19 MR. JOSSE: Yes, one primary reason and that's that Mr. Stewart is

20 dealing with this. If the Court wishes to hear from him in relation to

21 this matter, perhaps the Court would set a day later this week for him to

22 come and address Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we have a deadline for the presentation of

24 the reports, at the 28th of February. It goes without saying it's of no

25 use to invite an expert to write a report on the 25th if the report has to

Page 19908

1 be presented on the 28th. Therefore, there should be for preparation, and

2 the Chamber suggests at this moment that the Defence should give the names

3 of those experts, well, let's say, within a week from now on, even if the

4 reports, of course, will not be ready by then but we at least, and

5 especially also the Prosecution, knows what to expect.

6 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, I'm certainly not going to argue

7 with that proposition. I simply invite the Court to say that if

8 Mr. Stewart wishes to develop the matter any further, he's at liberty to

9 come to this Court when it's sitting.


11 MR. JOSSE: And subject to a little bit of notice to a legal

12 officer and the Prosecution, address the Court further on the subject.

13 JUDGE ORIE: As it stands now the Chamber would like to receive --

14 to know that the names of the experts are disclosed to the Prosecution

15 within the next seven days.

16 Let's be quite clear. Of course, there could be a reason to come

17 and argue the matter in court, but the Chamber would prefer if the time is

18 spent on selecting the experts rather than to argue why no time could have

19 been found to select an expert.

20 I think that's clear enough. Because the Chamber is concerned

21 about the presentation of the reports because the longer it takes to

22 select your experts the bigger the chance that the presentation of the --

23 that the filing of the reports will not be done as expected.

24 MR. JOSSE: I'm not seeking to be disrespectful. I understand

25 what Your Honour is saying. There is nothing I can honestly and usefully

Page 19909

1 add at this moment.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Josse, for not adding anything.

3 Then another matter is the Chamber has been provided with the

4 names of two new witnesses who did not appear yet on the list of witnesses

5 that the Chamber is in possession of. I'm fully aware, and the Chamber is

6 fully aware that this list might not be the final one, to say the least.

7 At the same time, of course, the Chamber would have preferred to have a

8 revised list already and the Chamber understands that the Defence is

9 working hard on this revised list. Nevertheless, if you want to add a

10 witness which is not yet on the list and it was a relatively long list,

11 then this should be approved by the Chamber. I'm fully aware of the

12 present situation in which working on the basis of a list which is not a

13 very realistic one doesn't make that much sense. At the same time, the

14 Chamber reminds the Defence of what the Rules require and urges the

15 Defence to finalise its revised list as soon as possible so that we have

16 again a realistic basis to work on, and that brings me to another matter.

17 The Chamber was notified in the -- well, I would say in the -- was

18 notified the testimony of Mr. Krajisnik would start on the 23rd of

19 January. It now seems that other witnesses are put on the list to testify

20 soon so therefore the Chamber would not be surprised if Mr. Krajisnik

21 would not start his testimony on the 23rd of January. At the same time,

22 it reminds us of the very unpractical situation which exists at this

23 moment that there is no schedule whatsoever and new witnesses are put in

24 without the consent of the Chamber. The Chamber wants to hear from the

25 Defence a bit more about their plans because finally, and that's the same

Page 19910

1 issue that I raised in respect of the experts, everything is postponed and

2 at a certain moment there is no time left and the Chamber can imagine that

3 then one would say, but you couldn't deny this, you couldn't deny that.

4 We were left without any guidance as to how the Defence wanted, without

5 any realistic guidance as to how the Defence wanted to present its case.

6 The Chamber then decided to grant some additional time and so we do not

7 know anything and, later on, there will be no possibility to refer to

8 changing circumstances because there is not even a beginning. So we can't

9 compare the situation as it was when we took the decision to grant, I

10 think it was an additional seven weeks, in the present situation. The

11 Chamber is very concerned about postponing, whether it's experts, whether

12 it's putting in new witnesses, whether it's postponing the testimony of

13 Mr. Krajisnik, and the Chamber does not want to be misunderstood. That

14 is, when it gave its earlier decision on how much time was available, that

15 it was firm in its determination.

16 If there is anything to be added Mr. Josse, you have an

17 opportunity to do so but it's rather an outcry of the Chamber that it

18 would rather work on a realistic and practical basis.

19 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, all the matters that Your Honour has just

20 raised are of extreme importance to everyone concerned with this trial.

21 They are matters that are primarily being dealt with by my leader, and

22 really he needs to address the Chamber upon them.


24 MR. JOSSE: It won't surprise the court to know that I could deal

25 with each of these matters in turn. Some I have rather more

Page 19911

1 responsibility for than others. However, I'm firmly of the view that the

2 desirable course will be for Mr. Stewart to read Your Honour's words which

3 have just been transcribed, to consider the matter, and either in writing

4 or perhaps orally to come back in the next few days and set out what the

5 exact position is. If the Court is satisfied with that, I --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm not expecting --

7 MR. JOSSE: It would be extremely desirable.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I do not expect you to respond extensively on the

9 matter, Mr. Josse. I think the message should be heard clearly and

10 loudly.

11 MR. JOSSE: He will certainly have Your Honour's words relayed to

12 him in a clear and indeed loud fashion.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that you can't hear loudly but

14 you can hear loud words and you can hear clear words so I apologise for

15 not linguistically being correct.

16 That's -- these were the procedural issues I would like to raise

17 at this moment.

18 Mr. Harmon, I see you reappeared. I don't know whether it's for

19 tab 17 which is always on my mind, as you know.

20 MR. HARMON: I noticed Your Honour, I noticed it on the television

21 and it stimulated me to come down here. I thought I would try to resolve

22 that matter and we discussed that while I was here, and I will -- I need

23 to further attempt to resolve that because what is the document that

24 Your Honours have clearly does not have the quotation that I quoted. It

25 may be that 739 is the wrong exhibit number. I'm going to go back to my

Page 19912

1 office and e-mail.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We will hear and understand everything after you've

3 given your explanation.

4 MR. HARMON: Yes. If I may be excused ones again, Your Honour,

5 thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You are. It was not even necessary for you to come

7 down here specifically for --

8 MR. HARMON: I did not want to leave Mr. Tieger abandoned on that

9 issue.


11 Then the witness can be brought back into the courtroom again so

12 that you, Mr. Josse, can continue your examination-in-chief.

13 [The witness entered court]


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examined by Mr. Josse: [Continued]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kapetina, I'm sorry that you had to wait for some

18 time because I had to deal with some procedural issues. Mr. Josse will

19 continue his examination. Would you please be so kind carefully listen to

20 what he asks you and to specifically answer to those questions.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


23 Q. Just before we hear the intercept --

24 A. I apologise but I wasn't receiving the interpretation.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have to check whether you're on the right

Page 19913

1 channel.

2 Did you miss everything I said? Because then I'll repeat it,

3 Mr. Kapetina.

4 I first apologised that you had to wait for such a long time

5 because we had to deal with procedural issues. Mr. Josse will continue

6 his examination and I urged you to listen carefully to what he asks so

7 that you specifically answer his question and wait for any further details

8 whether they are needed yes or no.

9 Please proceed.


11 Q. And what I said was just before we turn to the intercept, we have

12 seen an extract from your letter, from a -- contained within a newspaper,

13 the article being dated the 18th of September 1991. Do you remember when

14 you wrote the letter, when you sent it to the government?

15 A. I don't remember exactly. I don't remember the exact date.

16 Q. Could we all now turn to tab 4, please? And I'd like you to

17 listen, if you would, Mr. Kapetina, to the following intercept.

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I presume no one else is receiving any

19 audio. What I can tell the Court is I can see the synchronised version

20 running in the screen in the fashion that it normally does when we heard

21 it consistently in the past. I don't know if this is another glitch of

22 this particular courtroom in its newly renovated state or if it's

23 something we can remedy --

24 [Audiotape played]

25 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed that we do not receive any spoken English

Page 19914

1 translation. We do, however, receive on the French channel, a French

2 translation. But for the completeness of the transcript --

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would like a reference because

4 they weren't able to find the section as it did not start from the

5 beginning.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I can imagine that that's the problem. Perhaps part

7 of it was lost, it seems, but please correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Josse,

8 the name of Kapetina appeared quite quickly in B/C/S, and I do see that

9 the second part of page 1 of the four pages contains the name of Kapetina.

10 MR. JOSSE: Yes, I was told almost immediately by Mrs. Slavajevic

11 [phoen] that the point that we picked it up was towards the bottom of page

12 1 in the B/C/S.


14 THE INTERPRETER: We have located it, thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then could we restart the audio?

16 [Intercept played]

17 "Radovan KARADZIC: Yes.

18 "Vule DIVLJAN: Hello.

19 "Radovan KARADZIC: Yes.

20 "Vule DIVLJAN: Radovan.

21 "Radovan KARADZIC: Yes.

22 "Vule DIVLJAN: It's Vule Divljan. How are you?

23 "Radovan KARADZIC: Hey, Vule, hi. What's up?

24 "Vule DIVLJAN: What are you up to?

25 "Radovan KARADZIC: I've got a lot to do.

Page 19915

1 "Vule DIVLJAN: Look. We should call a few people together as

2 soon as possible relating to national defence. I'm here with the chief

3 inspector and the situation is alarming.

4 "Radovan KARADZIC: In what sense?

5 "Vule DIVLJAN: Well, there is fucking chaos. They should inform

6 you about everything, about how things are going, what's being done, et

7 cetera. For example, some people were invited to the council session

8 yesterday to support some horrible things and so on.

9 "Radovan KARADZIC: Okay. Is Simovic informed about this?

10 "Vule DIVLJAN: Well, I don't know but if he is he should have

11 informed you right away about what is to be done.

12 "Radovan KARADZIC: All right we know mainly about what's being

13 done but do ... what Doko and the associates are doing isn't worth a hill

14 of beans. The army is there too ... at that. Well have a council meeting

15 tonight, issue a declaration supporting the motions the army has taken to

16 guard the country and endorsing the mobilisation. Therefore ...

17 "Vule DIVLJAN: Could Dragan Kapetina, the chief inspector come to

18 this council session and provide additional information as to what this is

19 all about because he knows about everything that's being done. And it's

20 true, I don't know what he can do.

21 "Radovan KARADZIC: Dragan Kapetina?

22 "Vule DIVLJAN: Yes.

23 "Radovan KARADZIC: And how does he see all this and how things

24 are going? Put him on.

25 "Vule DIVLJAN: Just a moment.

Page 19916

1 "Dragan KAPETINA: Yes. Hello?

2 "Radovan KARADZIC: Yes.

3 "Dragan KAPETINA: May I help you? How are you? This is chief

4 inspector for national defence.

5 "Radovan KARADZIC: Well, tell me, please, what can you tell me

6 about that.

7 "Dragan KAPETINA: Well, I can tell you about the implementation

8 of the ministry's function.

9 "Radovan KARADZIC: Yes.

10 "Dragan KAPETINA: In that field?

11 "Radovan KARADZIC: Yes.

12 "Dragan KAPETINA: That it's not being implemented and that

13 secondary things are being pushed through while the main function is not

14 being implemented. There is practically a complete blockade.

15 "Radovan KARADZIC: Who is blocking it?

16 "Dragan KAPETINA: Well, I couldn't say. It's more or less known

17 who is in charge of the organ and that the activities are to go from the

18 minister.

19 "Radovan KARADZIC: What are the duties of an inspector?

20 "Dragan KAPETINA: Well, the duties of the inspector are mainly

21 directed towards or rather downwards towards the opposite ... towards the

22 municipal organs, towards everyone that's here.

23 "Radovan KARADZIC: We know about the telegrams he sent, we know

24 about Mesic's message. And tell me, do you have any competences other

25 than that of the minister? Can you address anyone else officially?

Page 19917

1 "Dragan KAPETINA: Well, I just told you now, I can only address

2 the municipalities, my subjects and ... I don't know whether I can ... for

3 example, the competences were such that charges could be pressed ....

4 everything that ... with the law ... if it's lawfully implemented.

5 "Radovan KARADZIC: All right. It's your opinion that things are

6 not being done in accordance with the law in the field, right?

7 "Dragan KAPETINA: It's my opinion that we have no instructions

8 for the work of municipal organs. In my opinion, for example, the

9 republic and the state are under the imminent threat of war, and we're

10 giving no instructions or directions to the municipal organs about how to

11 operate. And not only to them but to other subjects as well, who are

12 obliged to carry out preparations.

13 "Radovan KARADZIC: Why aren't you giving them any?

14 "Dragan KAPETINA: I don't know that. I suppose that is blocked.

15 Because we don't even have meetings or agreements or ... I don't know

16 whether that's because a board hasn't been constituted here or why. I

17 don't know if it's because of reinforcement but we are fully supplied.

18 Whether that's ... whether that's old or new that's none of my business.

19 "Radovan KARADZIC: I would like to ask you ... I mean, I mean ...

20 you know very well what Doko is doing.

21 "Dragan KAPETINA: Yes, I sort of do.

22 "Radovan KARADZIC: So I'm asking you to write an official record,

23 that is a report right now in your capacity as inspector to the Prime

24 Minister ... to write a report to the minister and send the same report to

25 the Prime Minister and the corps commander and to the TO commander.

Page 19918

1 "Dragan KAPETINA: I can only address the government, my

2 competence only covers the government.

3 "Radovan KARADZIC: Look, please write this and send copies to the

4 corps commander and the commander of the TO.

5 "Dragan KAPETINA: I thought that we should ask for an urgent

6 meeting with the minister this morning and then he could put forth the

7 concept and we would be informed of what he's doing.

8 "Radovan KARADZIC: You know very well what ... you know very well

9 what Doko is doing. Every ministry knows what Doko is doing. Therefore

10 you are, you are like subject in this entire system. It would be best if

11 you did that. Write to the government, inform the government of this in

12 detail and inform them about what's being done and what's not being done

13 and is supposed to be. Inform them of things being done and should not

14 be, as well as of things that we are obliged to do and yet are not doing.

15 Inform the government and send a copy to the president of the BH assembly

16 and the president of the council for national defence, Izetbegovic and the

17 two commanders of the corps and the TO.

18 "Dragan KAPETINA: And could you do something and arrange a

19 meeting between myself and Simovic? Because Simovic is far more skilled

20 in this field and has more experience.

21 "Radovan KARADZIC: Well, call Simovic, he'll see you. I'll call

22 him myself right now.

23 "Dragan KAPETINA: Good. If you announce me to Simovic then

24 Terzic, our undersecretary here and I would ...

25 "Radovan KARADZIC: Yes.

Page 19919

1 "Dragan KAPETINA: And we would agree for this active the to

2 really be coordinated and not ...

3 "Radovan KARADZIC: Look, two-three people from the ministry are

4 responsible for this, including the minister. We know very well what's

5 happening. Several people from the ministry will be responsible but

6 who ... those for whom we know very well how much they are helping Doko in

7 the devising of tricks against Yugoslavia and against the state and in the

8 disruption of the defensive power of the state, instead of helping it. We

9 know that. It's well known and it's known where it needs to be known and

10 it's known both by political and military structures. And you should act,

11 please, according to your conscience. Urgently. Regardless of how far

12 your competence reaches. You have the right to ... send a copy of your

13 report to the government, to send it to the president of the council for

14 national defence, Izetbegovic and ...

15 "Dragan KAPETINA: Listen.

16 "Radovan KARADZIC: And the corps commander and the commander of

17 the TO. But that should be done urgently today. Send it via courier.

18 "Dragan KAPETINA: All right.

19 "Radovan KARADZIC: Otherwise you'll be a responsible man and

20 Pusina will be responsible and the entire ministry over there. All the

21 people in the ministry. Because you're not small children to be waiting

22 around for the minister. You're carrying out your function.

23 "Dragan KAPETINA: Agreed.

24 "Radovan KARADZIC: I'll announce to Simovic now that you'll ...

25 "Dragan KAPETINA: Arrange a meeting with Simovic so that this ...

Page 19920

1 "Radovan KARADZIC: All right, I'll call him.

2 "Dragan KAPETINA: ... has some legal foundation after all.

3 "Radovan KARADZIC: I'll call him now.

4 "Dragan KAPETINA: Thank you.

5 "Radovan KARADZIC: Cheers."

6 MR. JOSSE: Could that have a number, please.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar?

8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D119, Your Honours. The transcript

9 would be D119.A and the English translation D119.A.1.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Please proceed, Mr. Josse.


12 Q. Firstly, who is the man who is heard at the beginning of the tape,

13 Mr. Divljan?

14 A. I think Divljan worked in some other republican organ and that he

15 came together with a colleague to see me in my office. But I don't know

16 which organ he worked for.

17 Q. Are we right to assume from this intercept that at that point in

18 time, that is the 1st of July 1991, you had not written the letter you

19 have told us about earlier?

20 A. That's right. I didn't write a letter.

21 Q. How soon after this conversation with Dr. Karadzic did you write

22 the letter?

23 A. Well, I don't know exactly but within the space of seven to 10

24 days.

25 Q. To what extent were you influenced by what Dr. Karadzic was saying

Page 19921

1 to you?

2 A. Well, I should first of all like to emphasise that I didn't ask to

3 have this talk at my own initiative; neither did Dr. Karadzic, I assume.

4 I did not -- I was not subject to anybody's influence, especially if the

5 people wielding influence on me are not my superiors. I was completely

6 independent in my work.

7 Q. To the best of your recollection, had you ever spoken to

8 Dr. Karadzic before? If you don't know, say so.

9 A. No. I'd never spoken to him before, either over the phone or

10 directly.

11 Q. And for the avoidance of any doubt, what did you understand him

12 being asked -- him asking you to do?

13 A. I understood him to be asking me that Mr. Karadzic was asking me

14 to link up with the army command, the republican staff of Territorial

15 Defence and quite simply to take an active part in the Ministry of Defence

16 frameworks. Of course, I understood from our conversation that he was not

17 fully informed of my own competences and authority as a chief republican

18 inspector.

19 Q. Do you have any idea as to how Dr. Karadzic found out what your

20 position and viewpoint was within the ministry?

21 A. I don't know whether at the time of this conversation he was aware

22 of my positions and of my position in the ministry. I myself did not

23 inform him about that.

24 Q. And why were you anxious to see Mr. Simovic at that point in time?

25 A. I wanted to have a conversation with Mr. Simovic because the

Page 19922

1 Defence Ministry is part of the government, Minister of Defence is a

2 member of the government, and Mr. Simovic was vice premier for Defence and

3 internal policies and he was a very experienced politician. He had spent

4 a long time working in the state administration and I knew that he was

5 aware and familiar with the administration. Most of the other staff who

6 joined the state administration had never before worked in the state

7 administration, unlike Simovic, who had even before that spent a number of

8 years working in the state administration.

9 Q. Your -- I'm going to move on. Your letter is published, it's

10 widely circulated, it gets a certain amount of publicity, both in the

11 newspapers, as we've seen, and you tell us on the television. Is there

12 any reaction by Mr. Doko to what -- to this publicity?

13 A. Minister Doko did not react to the publicity in the media. On the

14 contrary, he received my caution with the invitation to attend a session

15 of the council for state Defence because he was a member of that council,

16 the council for state defence of the republic, and when he received this

17 written warning, together with the other materials and agenda for the

18 session, he called me to his office, he threw that piece of paper across

19 the table towards me and he asked me what this was. I informed him what

20 this was. I told him that this was my duty and my legal obligation to

21 warn the highest state bodies about the need to respect legality, and then

22 he asked "What law should be respected?" And then I said, "Mr. Minister,

23 those laws and the constitution which are in force, which are being

24 applied, both federal and the republican ones." And then he said that he

25 did not recognise those laws and that constitution. He used very vulgar

Page 19923

1 language. And we had words then and I left the office.

2 Q. Do you recall when that conversation was, approximately?

3 A. That conversation took place two or three days before the session

4 of the council for National Defence that was scheduled and that I should

5 have attended myself in order to directly warn the Presidency about that

6 letter of warning and about what I thought.

7 Q. Did you physically go to the building where the meeting you've

8 just mentioned, the session, council of National Defence, was being held?

9 A. Yes. I was invited by the secretary of the council, the

10 professional who prepared those sessions. I went there. I was waiting in

11 front of the meeting room for my item on the agenda to be called.

12 Q. Expecting to be called in to deal with it presumably; is that

13 right?

14 A. Precisely so.

15 Q. And as far as you're aware, what happened?

16 A. Given the fact that the Vice-Premier Miodrag Simovic was a member

17 of the council for National Defence, when my item was called, that written

18 warning, the president of that council, Mr. Izetbegovic, the chairman of

19 the Presidency, asked Simovic, who was the vice-premier, because the

20 ministry was part of the government, he asked him to inform members of the

21 council and to tell them whether I, as the chief republican inspector was

22 authorised to warn the highest republican organ. Miodrag Simovic informed

23 the chair person and other members of the council that I was duty-bound to

24 issue that warning to everybody and tell them that they were duty-bound to

25 obey laws, and that I acted in keeping with my responsibilities and with

Page 19924

1 my legal authorities. And if I hadn't done so, the government should

2 have -- could have called me to task. After that explanation was given by

3 the vice-premier, Mr. Izetbegovic suggested that the item should be

4 removed from the agenda and this is exactly what was done.

5 Q. And do you recall when that session was held?

6 A. I really don't. I don't remember the date when that session took

7 place.

8 Q. After it, did you continue to work at the ministry?

9 A. I continued coming to work but I didn't do much. I didn't do

10 anything. Not only me. There were a lot of people like me.

11 Q. Have you any idea why the minister allowed you to remain in your

12 job, bearing in mind what had just transpired?

13 A. I think that there was no time for any showdowns or, for example,

14 for my job to be terminated or any such radical moves. The minister at

15 that time had more urgent things to do.

16 Q. I want to ask you about some specific events within the ministry

17 in 1992. Did anything happen in relation to the arming of staff within

18 the ministry?

19 A. Yes. I don't know exactly when that happened, but I can tell you

20 that I was informed by a lady who worked in the ministry and who was in

21 charge with the plan of the defence of the ministry, and who kept 36

22 pistols in a vault, she told me that Mr. Doko asked her to give those

23 pistols to Croats and Muslims against receipt. I don't know when this

24 happened but I believe that it was in the summer of 1991.

25 Q. And how did you find this out?

Page 19925

1 A. I learned that from this lady, who was in charge of the defence

2 plan of the ministry, and she was in charge of those pistols. Those

3 pistols were envisaged for the staff who would have worked in the Ministry

4 of Defence during the war, if there had been a war. And also, the

5 assistant minister -- Defence Minister confirmed to me that they had been

6 issued with those pistols as their personal weapon.

7 Q. Did you see or hear of any other discrimination against Serbs

8 within the ministry?

9 A. Of course I did. Again, I can't tell you when this happened but a

10 decree law was passed by the law on coming to work because it had already

11 become visible that a number of Serbs in the ministry and other bodies

12 failed to turn up for work for security reasons. And then a decree law

13 was passed that a register should be kept of those who were coming to work

14 and I believe that it was stipulated that anybody who failed to come to

15 work for anything between three and five days could be fired, their jobs

16 could be terminated for that reason.

17 Q. How long did you continue working for the ministry?

18 A. I continued working until the beginning of March 1992.

19 Q. And why did you cease working at that point?

20 A. The situation became more complicated by the day. There were a

21 lot more incidents happening. The roads were blocked and I couldn't get

22 to Selo [phoen] from Hadzici and Pazarici. Nobody guaranteed my safety in

23 the building of the ministry. I was even suggested by my colleagues,

24 primarily by my friends, with whom I was on friendly terms even before,

25 that I would be better off not coming to work at all.

Page 19926

1 Q. You were living with your family at this point in time in Hadzici;

2 is that correct?

3 A. Not in Hadzici, but some ten to 20 -- 12 kilometres further from

4 Hadzici, closer to a place called Pazaric.

5 Q. And your home was in which municipality, please?

6 A. The municipality was Hadzici.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, could I just ask one clarifying question?

8 You said that the situation slowly deteriorated. Do you remember

9 what was the last day that you went to work?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the date but I

11 remember that it was at the beginning of March 1992. I can't give you the

12 exact date, I'm afraid.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And that was when the roads were blocked already?

14 Did you ever go to work passing through these roadblocks or were they

15 erected after you went to work for the last time?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Barricades had been put up much

17 earlier on some of the roads. Sometimes I was lucky and I didn't have any

18 problems passing through those barricades, but the situation was getting

19 more complicated, it was very dangerous, and there were lot of risks to be

20 taken. At that time, in Ilidza, which is a municipality next to Hadzici

21 on the way to Sarajevo, there had already been incidents, there had

22 already been dead and killed. There had been conflicts. I don't know

23 whether it was March or in April.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kapetina, you answered my question. Thank you.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.

Page 19927


2 Q. You -- there came a point in time where you decided to move your

3 family out of the area. When was that, please?

4 A. Yes. I decided to move out my family to a safer place towards the

5 end of April, on the eve of the 1st of May. The last day of April, the

6 30th of April, that is, I decided to move my wife and two children out and

7 I drove them to a safer location.

8 Q. In the period from the point in time when you had ceased working

9 in Sarajevo, to the point in time that you removed your family from the

10 area, what if anything were you doing in Hadzici?

11 A. From mid-March to the 30th of April, when I finally left the

12 municipality of Hadzici and my place of residence, I volunteered in

13 Hadzici. In Hadzici there was an Assembly of the Serbian People and I was

14 elected deputy president of that assembly.

15 This was not a professional duty. I worked as a volunteer. In

16 addition to the president and deputy, there was also a council of that

17 assembly which consisted of the most prominent Serbs in Hadzici. That

18 council numbered 20 Serbian intellectuals from Hadzici.

19 Q. I'm not going to ask you very much about what happened in Hadzici

20 at that particular time. But there is one topic I do want to question you

21 in relation to, and that is this: Were you aware of Muslims departing

22 from the municipality?

23 A. Yes. Towards the end of April, I noticed, as I drove to Hadzici

24 in my own vehicle, that Muslims were leaving the territory of Hadzici.

25 They were leaving the area in tractors and trailers. They even tied their

Page 19928

1 cattle to those tractors. They moved out slowly in those tractors, to

2 Tarcin and Pazarici. Towards the end of April this was not happening on a

3 very large scale, but every day somebody would move out in that direction.

4 I'm talking only about the Muslim population of Hadzici.

5 Q. Did you have any idea why they were doing this?

6 A. I assumed that this was all being done for safety reasons.

7 However, it may have even been organised. There may have even been a plan

8 to do that.

9 Q. Now, I'm going to come back to that in a moment but I think it

10 would help if we continued with your own chronology of events. You've

11 told us that on the 30th of April, you left the municipality of Hadzici.

12 Where did you go?

13 A. Yes. I just happened to receive a confirmation from the

14 leadership of that municipality that I could use 50 litres of fuel.

15 Before that I had always used my own fuel and then I decided to use that

16 fuel to move my family out from the territory of that place where I had

17 resided. Obviously my parents stayed behind in our family house.

18 Q. And is it right - I think I can summarise this - that having

19 deposited your family in a safe place, you attempted some days later to

20 return to Hadzici but you were unable to because of roadblocks? Is that

21 correct?

22 A. Of course I intended to go back to Hadzici. I decided to move my

23 family because some of my colleagues from that council had done the same.

24 They had sent their families to Montenegro or Serbia and I felt an

25 obligation towards my family to do the same. And it was my intention once

Page 19929

1 this was done to return to Hadzici. However, due to very serious

2 roadblocks, which were not just sporadic barricades but full blockades on

3 the roads, I could not go back to Hadzici.

4 Q. I'm going to stop your chronology at that point, and I want to

5 look at a few documents with you. Firstly, and I appreciate that this is

6 untranslated.

7 MR. JOSSE: And, Your Honour, I very much doubt whether I will

8 seek to have all of this document translated. Could we look at tab 1,

9 please?

10 Q. This is a document consisting of almost 60 pages, and if we look

11 at page 1, which is the one that is open there, we see your name, Dragan

12 Kapetina. Could you read the other words on that page, please, for the

13 record?

14 A. "Manual for drawing up plans in emergency conditions."

15 Q. This is a manual that you wrote in 1990; is that correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. It was part of your work in the ministry; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I want you to summarise its purpose, please.

20 A. The law on all people's Defence, both the federal as well as the

21 republican law, prescribed an obligation that all those who were subject

22 to those laws had to draw up not only their peacetime plans but also plans

23 for extraordinary circumstances and conditions. I, as a republican

24 inspector, felt an obligation to interpret the provisions of the laws that

25 regulated that area, and I'm talking about the regulations of the

Page 19930

1 Presidency of the SFRY and the decision of the federal council, to

2 interpret them and to clarify them for those who were subject to drawing

3 up those plans that were a legal obligation that they had to honour.

4 Q. And the details and information contained within this manual,

5 where did you gather and collate the material from? In absolute outline,

6 please.

7 A. I used the provisions of the federal and republican laws. I also

8 used the regulations that existed at the federal level, that was passed by

9 the Presidency of the SFRY, as well as the decision of the federal council

10 on the methodology of drawing up such plans. Since those regulations were

11 not very detailed, I decided to explain in practical terms how to draw up

12 each and every document that was part and parcel of those plans. I used

13 my personal experience because on behalf of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I had

14 participated in drawing up federal laws and regulations.

15 Q. Could you now take a look, please, at tab 2?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I noticed that the rather extensive

17 document under tab 1 is not translated, and I do not exactly know that

18 apart from perhaps it comes down to tab 2 but doesn't seem to be perhaps

19 directly -- perhaps it is.

20 MR. JOSSE: Well perhaps -- I did say a moment ago that it wasn't

21 translated, conceded that it wasn't.


23 MR. JOSSE: I would have thought that resources would dictate that

24 having this translated would be almost impossible, but perhaps we could

25 come back to that situation when I've concluded this topic. Your Honour

Page 19931

1 will see in a few moments where I'm heading with this.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can imagine what it is but let's just wait

3 and hear from the witness what his answers to your questions are.

4 Please proceed.


6 Q. Tab 2 is a document this Court is extremely familiar with. Listen

7 to my question carefully, Mr. Kapetina.

8 MR. JOSSE: I should say for the record I think it's part of P64

9 headed instructions for the organisation, operation of organs, the Serbian

10 people of Bosnia-Herzegovina in emergency conditions.

11 Q. My first question to you is we see this document is dated 19th of

12 December 1991. Did you see it in and around that time, in other words

13 either in late 1991 or in 1992?

14 A. I didn't see this document either towards the end of 1991 or after

15 that. The first time I saw this document was when I was interviewed by

16 the investigators of the Prosecutor's office of this Tribunal.

17 Q. And just stop there. It is right, isn't it, that on the 14th of

18 May, and I think also a date in July of 2004, you were interviewed under

19 what I call a caution, by, as you've said, investigators and indeed

20 lawyers of the Office of the Prosecutor, that interview taking place at

21 their Sarajevo field office? Is that correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And you were interviewed for many hours and you answered all the

24 questions that they asked you; is that correct?

25 A. Correct. The interview was taken over two days, as a matter of

Page 19932

1 fact.

2 Q. And you've just told us that the first time you saw this document

3 in tab 2 was when the investigators showed it to you? You have just said

4 that, haven't you?

5 A. That is correct. I can confirm that.

6 Q. And it is right, isn't it, that they put to you that there were

7 similarities between the document at tab 2 and the document in tab 1, the

8 one that you drafted; is that correct?

9 A. Precisely.

10 Q. My next question is: Having read in detail the text of the

11 document in tab 2, is it a document that you find surprising or worrying

12 in any way?

13 A. I have read the document. I read it now while preparing for

14 testimony, and I wasn't surprised by it.

15 Q. Why weren't you surprised by it?

16 A. Well, a moment ago, in answering another question, I said that the

17 federal law on total national defence and the republican law on total

18 national defence provided for possible situations that a country can face

19 and the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina as well. In addition to a state of

20 war and imminent danger of war, the law proscribed for emergency

21 situations, and in keeping with those legal provisions and the definition

22 of a state of emergency, and I don't think that was only the situation in

23 socialist Yugoslavia because in other countries and systems, there are

24 situations of crisis and emergency situations as well. Anyway, two

25 federal provisions were enacted that I mentioned a moment ago, guidelines

Page 19933

1 by the SFRY for eliminating emergency situations and a government decision

2 by the federal executive council on the methods for compiling plans for

3 emergency situations, and in conformity with those two provisions and the

4 law on national defence for Bosnia-Herzegovina, all the subjects and

5 protagonists in the planning process were duty-bound to devise and compile

6 plans for emergency situations. And I am linking up that document now

7 with that obligation under the law.

8 So the political party was the subject of planning in the former

9 socialist Yugoslavia. And therefore probably because of the overall

10 situation in the republic itself, and probably in the party itself, this

11 kind of set of instructions were compiled as had been presented to me here

12 today.

13 And I'd like to say another thing once we are analysing this

14 document. And it is this: According to these instructions, there are

15 certain measures, activities and tasks provided for but if you take a look

16 at the document in its entirety then you'll see that they have just been

17 listed, without being actually ordered. No orders have been issued. And

18 so at the end of this document, I don't know in what point, perhaps it was

19 point 3, it says quite literally that the person compiling the

20 instructions will order when and where each measure would be undertaken.

21 So that is why I said that I see nothing particularly surprising in this

22 document.

23 It can be considered as legally binding and the result of the

24 overall situation in the republic, if you will, now I don't know what the

25 situation was like in the party itself, but this segment still does not

Page 19934

1 comprise measures that were ordered but measures that could be potentially

2 ordered for execution. That's what I wanted to say.

3 Q. And what do you say to the assertion put to you by the Office of

4 the Prosecutor's investigators that the document that you wrote, the

5 manual that we find at tab 1, is similar to the document at tab 2?

6 A. In my interview with the investigators, I understood it that they,

7 on the basis of my notebook for the elaboration of the plans, arrived at

8 the idea that I could have been one of the authors working on these

9 instructions. That's how I understood it. And I categorically rejected

10 any links with this document of myself as an author and I explained this

11 by saying that in my aide-memoire, I explained this subject matter far

12 more professionally and in greater details so that it is quite obvious

13 that I was not the author of this document, nor did I know about it. Had

14 I implemented the process of supervision I would have come across this

15 document in the municipality, had it existed at the time. That's what I

16 wanted to say.

17 Q. I now would like to turn, please, to tab 3 --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, just as far as relevance is concerned, of

19 course, we never know what to expect but you've now spent quite some time

20 on a denial that Mr. Kapetina might have been the author of the 19th of

21 December instructions. No one ever suggested that up until this moment,

22 as far as I'm aware of. So therefore it's fine to know that you could

23 call a couple of other witnesses telling that they are not or asking them

24 whether they would deny authorship of this.

25 I wonder, the only thing that happens it suddenly comes into my

Page 19935

1 mind that people may have thought Mr. Kapetina was and then to digest that

2 and to say that there are now good reasons to accept that, just on the

3 basis of their thoughts. But you're telling us at least until now --

4 MR. JOSSE: I don't follow Your Honour. Your Honour puts it

5 slightly differently.

6 JUDGE ORIE: What I understand your line of questioning is that it

7 may ever have been suggested to Mr. Kapetina, whether clear or not, I do

8 not know the document, I haven't seen the interview so no one ever gave us

9 any material to suggest to us that Mr. Kapetina would have been the

10 author, and then you've spent some time on exploring that he could not

11 have been because otherwise he would have seen the 19th of December

12 sections, of course, at an earlier stage. I wonder what's the use.

13 MR. JOSSE: Ah, first of all, Your Honour doesn't get the

14 interview because I'm not permitted to put that before the Court and I'm

15 not seeking at this juncture to --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that --

17 MR. JOSSE: That wasn't the purpose of this evidence. The purpose

18 of the evidence did not relate to the authorship or otherwise by this

19 witness of that document. The purpose --

20 JUDGE ORIE: If it is similarity.

21 MR. TIEGER: I sense that there is some caution on Mr. Josse's

22 part in enunciating the purpose of the evidence so that he doesn't

23 specifically indicate to the witness who is now giving testimony what his

24 purpose is, which would be rather akin to a leading question. I

25 appreciate that. If he's going to be asked to continue to explain --

Page 19936

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, it should be in the absence of the witness.

2 MR. TIEGER: Correct.

3 MR. JOSSE: That's half of it. There is a bit more to it as well.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it would take more time than it would bring

5 us. So let's forget about it for a moment. But at least I gave you the

6 impression I gained from some of the previous questions.

7 MR. JOSSE: That was not the purpose of this -- these questions.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to address something.

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the witness

10 to tell me the following. This document on tab 1, was this document

11 published? We don't really understand very clearly. Mr. Josse, you've

12 talked about a manual, a book. What was the purpose of this document?

13 Why was it drafted? Who asked for this document to be drafted? To whom

14 was this document given, this manual given? Why was it drafted? Why was

15 it prepared? Why was it made? Could you please answer.


17 Q. You can answer all of those questions, can't you, Mr. Kapetina?

18 And I invite you to do so, please.

19 A. Yes, I did hear the question. This manual was printed in 5.000

20 copies. The number of copies that there were planning subjects in

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And the manual was distributed to each of the

22 subjects or protagonists in the planning process. Of course, this was

23 authorised by the republican secretary for national defence which was a

24 General Muharem Tepahagic [phoen] at the time. Considering that this was

25 a good manual which could be of assistance to the subjects to compile and

Page 19937

1 comply with their legal obligations.

2 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.


4 Q. I've invited your attention to tab 3, please. This is an extract

5 from a book by a Sefer Halilovic called Cunning Strategy; is that right?

6 A. That's right. That's the document I have before me.

7 Q. And you have had a chance to read this particular chapter; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes. Just this chapter. The chapter that has been presented

10 here.

11 Q. And I have two questions. The first is: Does this in any way

12 help you to explain the activities of the Muslims of Hadzici that you have

13 already mentioned, namely their departure?

14 A. Yes. Among other things, that too. Although there are other

15 things as well.

16 Q. Tell us first of all about that issue and then we can turn to the

17 other matters.

18 A. I have been given this portion of the book and the title is Tasks

19 of the Regional Military Staff, and directives for the defence of the

20 sovereignty of the author Sefer Halilovic, for the defence of sovereignty.

21 I'd like to remind the Chamber and ask them to look at point 2, the tasks

22 of the regional military staff. At the end of point 2, it states the

23 following: "Plan, from which areas, villages and local commune the Muslim

24 population would be evacuated, the line of withdrawal, who will secure it,

25 reception areas, and accommodation. Plan how to secure federal and

Page 19938

1 republican resources of supplies -- reserves of supplies."

2 Q. And what is the significance of that, please?

3 A. I said a moment ago that I thought to begin with that the people

4 for security reasons and their safety was being moved out or was moving

5 out, and that was the logical conclusion because everybody values their

6 own personal safety and the safety of their families above all else.

7 However, I assumed that there was planned moving out as well, and here we

8 have it. In reading these tasks, this confirms my suspicions and

9 conviction that the dislocation which in Bosnia-Herzegovina is often taken

10 to mean ethnic cleansing were in fact planned actions.

11 Q. You said that you found other parts of this chapter significant.

12 In what way?

13 A. I think -- I don't think the Court will mind but let me say that

14 I'm sorry to say that -- I'm sorry that I hadn't read the book earlier,

15 but what is set out in these two or three pages is truly surprising or

16 astounding, in fact. On page 11, for instance, you can understand one

17 could understand that these activities tombs in the second half of 1991,

18 that is to say preparations for the meeting held on the 7th and 8th of

19 February, which was a consultation of regional staffs, the commanders of

20 regional staffs in actual fact and preparations for that meeting were

21 conducted --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Reference to page 11 where I've got five pages.

23 Could you -- or is it in the B/C/S original and we have to find --

24 MR. JOSSE: It's 11 at the top, Your Honour. In fact it's the

25 very first page, I think, the introduction which says on the 7th of

Page 19939

1 February 1992. For some reason it says 11 on the top of that page. It's

2 11 in the B/C/S version.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Next page gives 11, bottom down, bottom so I do

4 understand. It's the very first part. Yes, please proceed.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 In fact, the tasks of regional military staffs, that text was come

7 pied at the end of 1991, which is astounding. If we read to the end the

8 tasks set out in eight points, then I'd like to draw your attention to

9 point 2 once again, where it states the following: The disposition of our

10 units, strength and composition, possible planned operation, if necessary

11 a way to block the barracks, the way to attack the stockpiles in order to

12 seize weapons or simply to block them. Mark places of buildings envisaged

13 for sabotage, mark precisely the towns or sectors for municipal logistic

14 bases and regional logistic bases. I read out the following sentence

15 which says "plan from which areas," et cetera. And it's also interesting

16 to note point 1, which addresses the disposition of SDS units. And the

17 second portion of point 1 is particularly interesting where it says "mark

18 on the map the ethnic structure of villages, municipalities, urban and

19 suburban settlements," and then in brackets, Muslim and Croatian villages,

20 a complete green circle with the letter C beside the Croatian villages,

21 S -- and a blue circle beside Serbian villages. This bears out the thesis

22 according to my minister that we are the blues, that is to say the enemy

23 side, which is confirmed in Mr. Halilovic's book because he refers to Serb

24 villages and says a blue circle. So all the other areas are marked in

25 green, a green circle. I don't want to comment on what the green circle

Page 19940

1 signifies but it says, or Sefer Halilovic says put a C for Croatian

2 villages or H for Hrvatska, and I will tell you why.

3 There was an attempt to make a unified organised armed force from

4 the Territorial Defence but once again without the Serbs, minus the Serbs,

5 and the Croats didn't agree to that. Mr. Halilovic and the political

6 leadership of the SDA was left nothing else but to form a paramilitary in

7 this way and that was the Patriotic League.

8 While I'm analysing this document, I'd like to draw your attention

9 further to another document entitled or the second part of the document

10 entitled, "Directive for the defence of sovereignty," especially the

11 portion speaking of the overall enemy forces and we can see the combined

12 forces of the enemy and who the enemy is considered to be in

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It says here that the SDS forces --

14 MR. JOSSE: Just fop for a moment. I was simply going to get you

15 to clarify that that's the handwritten document, isn't it?

16 A. That's right.

17 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Tieger has another point.

18 MR. TIEGER: I may have to check the 65 ter summary but while I

19 understood the witness would be making reference to this document, what

20 appears to be happening is a kind of quasi-attempted expert analysis that

21 would normally be the subject of a great deal more notice than has been

22 provided in this case, leaving me in the position of attempting to parse

23 out what is personal knowledge, what is opinion, to delve into the basis,

24 all of which seems -- it seems like we are drifting very close to, if not

25 already over the line, of the distinction between a witness who offers

Page 19941

1 either personal knowledge or appropriate kinds of generalised opinions and

2 into something far more. And I -- at this point, I'm concerned about the

3 level of analysis that the Defence is seeking to elicit based on the

4 information that was indicated previously.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse?

6 MR. JOSSE: Well, as usual I was anxious, Your Honour, not to

7 lead. Perhaps I could deal specifically with the matter which I did give

8 Mr. Tieger notice.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. Let me first give a brief response to

10 what I consider not an objection but a concern of Mr. Tieger.

11 The Chamber might think that the analysis is not an in-depth

12 analysis of the situation. The witness draws our attention to the fact

13 that SDS units are mentioned while even without him drawing the attention

14 to it we might have noticed that anyhow, carefully reading this document,

15 so I might not be that much concerned at this moment as to the expert

16 knowledge needed for the observations the witness made. At the same time,

17 that might diminish also the value of his answers. So therefore it's a

18 very good suggestion, as you said, that you would now turn to the subject

19 specifically mentioned in the summary, but I suggest that you do that

20 after the break because I take it you'll not be finished with it in two

21 minutes. We'll have a break until quarter past six.

22 --- Recess taken at 5.53 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 6.21 p.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you're on your feet.

25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. As apparently has become our

Page 19942

1 custom in the new Courtroom II, I would like to begin with a very quick

2 housekeeping matter. That is with respect to tab 17 advise the court that

3 the document from which Mr. Harmon read and which should have been placed

4 in tab 17 is, in fact, P188. I have copies of that here and can

5 distribute it as soon as we -- at the end of the session.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's then on the record. And the quote

7 finally found its source.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.

9 MR. JOSSE: I think for Mr. Kapetina's benefit he's looking we

10 bewildered. It's got nothing to do with --

11 JUDGE ORIE: No. This was a matter entirely different from your

12 testimony. I should have explained that to you first. Thank you for

13 reminding me, Mr. Josse. Please proceed.

14 MR. JOSSE: Could I deal with a semi-housekeeping matter that is

15 relevant to Mr. Kapetina's evidence.

16 Can I call -- can I inform the Court that if we look at tab 3, if

17 we look at the B/C/S, there is the handwritten document at page 167, at

18 the bottom right-hand corner. The Court will see that that document has

19 two lines through it creating a cross effect. Those lines have been put

20 there by us, the reason being we were not inviting the CLSS to translate

21 them. In fact, most of that document is translated, I suspect because it

22 had previously been translated. I have no doubt for -- for

23 Mr. Halilovic's trial, among other things.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Now you see how unfamiliar we are with these kind of

25 books. I got the impression that someone who drafted this memo in

Page 19943

1 handwriting and later disagreed or wanted to get rid of it, and struck it

2 through.

3 MR. JOSSE: Could I add, tomorrow, I hope, I will replace that

4 page. I'm relying on Mr. Krajisnik's library and he's kindly agreed to

5 lend me the book for that purpose tomorrow.


7 MR. JOSSE: Could I ask for a number whilst on this subject, for

8 tab 3, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 3, Your Honours, will be D120.


11 Q. Now, the last question I want to ask you in relation to this

12 extract from Mr. Halilovic's book is this, Mr. Kapetina. Are there any

13 similarities that you see between what Mr. Halilovic is advocating in

14 these pages and what you read in the document in tab 2, dealing with

15 emergency conditions?

16 A. Very briefly. There is a huge difference. I said that in there,

17 measures and tasks are just listed, and there there is a passive

18 relationship there. They are not ordered. They only should be ordered or

19 not ordered for that matter. In this document here, however, by Mr. Sefer

20 Halilovic, these are the command documents, directives and tasks. These

21 are command documents. And it is astonishing under item 4 where he

22 says, "I have decided." This is a command document. As he says here, he

23 already has under his command 120.000 people. And finally, those forces

24 that are ascribed to the SDS, the JNA, actually, this is not the enemy.

25 This is the only legitimate and legal force in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

Page 19944

1 only armed force. And just for a better understanding, the largest unit

2 in the Sarajevo corps that Mr. Halilovic ranges as enemy is under the

3 command of Mr. Rasim Delic, a general who would later on become his

4 superior.

5 Q. As I said I will, I'm now going to move on and return to your

6 activities. You've told us that you were unable to return to Hadzici.

7 You've explained why. Where did you go instead?

8 A. I arrived from Serbia, from Vrsic [phoen] where I had left my

9 family. I arrived in Pale because that was the only possible road. The

10 road Bijeljina -- actually, Belgrade-Bijeljina-Zvornik, and then onwards

11 to Sokolac and Pale. Thus I arrived in Pale.

12 Q. And when you first arrived there, what was your intention? Why

13 did you go there? You've explained why it is you ended up there but did

14 you intend to stay there for long? What were you hoping to do thereafter?

15 A. I wanted to go back to Hadzici. That was my intention. However,

16 the combat activities had already started there. There was very clear

17 border between the area under the control of the Muslims and the area

18 under the control of the Serbs. At first I could not even reach the area

19 that was under the control of Serbs which was the centre of Hadzici and as

20 for my place of residence, until the very end of the war it remained under

21 the control of the Muslim forces.

22 Q. All right. I think, rather than deal at this precise moment with

23 what you did in Pale, bearing in mind your last answer, could we deal with

24 another topic that flows from your last answer, albeit quite briefly.

25 What happened at this point in time to your parents?

Page 19945

1 A. At first I did not have any information as to what was happening

2 to my parents. My father and mother were there. It was only towards the

3 end of June that I learned that all the men in Tarcin and Pazarici had

4 been incarcerated in the silo in Tarcin, that a camp had been formed there

5 for Serbs aging in range from 17 to 70 years of age.

6 Later on, this information was completed by the fact that my

7 father was among the 700 or 800 incarcerated Serbs. It was only later

8 that I learned that he was not incarcerated because he was my father but

9 because he was a Serb because all the Serbs were incarcerated there.

10 Q. I think we - you should explain; it may be obvious - that the

11 reason your father had been taken prisoner was because effectively he was

12 living in the Muslim side of the line when the war actually started; is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes. He found himself in the territory under the control of the

15 Muslim forces. He was over 60 years of age at the time so he could not

16 have been a soldier or a person carrying arms. All the men aged from 17

17 to 80 were incarcerated. Those things happened elsewhere as well but I

18 can't bear the monstrous idea that people could be incarcerated in a silo

19 with concrete walls, towering over 20 metres above people, and 700 to 800

20 men were incarcerated there and the sheer idea seems monstrous to me, to

21 imprison people in a place like that.

22 Q. And your mother continued to live in her home but you were unable

23 to have any contact with her, again because she was on the Muslim side of

24 the line; is that correct?

25 A. Of course, she remained in our family house. She tried to help my

Page 19946

1 father. She tried to take food to him. However, that food never reached

2 him, and he died in November of that same year. He spent some five months

3 in such horrific conditions. After that, my mother was exchanged and she

4 moved to the area under the control of the Republika Srpska army.

5 Q. For the avoidance of any doubt, your father died whilst in custody

6 in the silos?

7 A. Yes. My father died while he was in custody in the silos. He

8 died due to the conditions that prevailed there, and the torture that he

9 was subjected to. Not only him but the other people as well.

10 Q. Let's move away from that sad subject and move to your life in

11 Pale.

12 What did you do when you got there?

13 A. Yes. Bogdan Subotic was already there. I heard that he had been

14 appointed the Defence Minister. Since I could not reach Hadzici and I

15 happened to bump into my colleagues from the Ministry of Defence in

16 Sarajevo, who had been in -- arrived in Pale before me, they told me to

17 get in touch with minister Subotic just to see what was going on and

18 whether I could be of any use to them. After having had my conversation

19 with Subotic, he told me that I should urgently be engaged in the ministry

20 as a professional. He was a minister and I was the only professional in

21 Pale at the time. That was the Ministry of the Serbian Republic of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, when we are talking about the headquarters in Pale.

23 He was the minister and I was the only staffer. There was nobody else

24 there but the two of us.

25 Q. When did you start working under Mr. Subotic?

Page 19947

1 A. Well, I don't know the exact date but I think it was after the

2 10th of May.

3 Q. And where was the offices of the ministry located?

4 A. At the time in May, there were no offices of the defence ministry.

5 Actually, what there was was a room where Mr. Subotic worked and slept and

6 I was in a sort of communal room and it was only at the beginning of June

7 that the ministry and the other organs and the government as well were

8 accommodated at the Bistica [phoen] hotel on Mount Jahorina.

9 Q. And to give the Court some idea of the development of the

10 ministry, you've told us that when you started working there, you and

11 Mr. Subotic were the only people working in that department; that's right?

12 A. That's right. And I'd like to stress again and to explain that as

13 far as the headquarters of the ministry at Pale was concerned, that was

14 how it was. The others were municipal organs for National Defence on the

15 territory under the control of the army of Republika Srpska and within the

16 composition of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So all the

17 municipality Secretariats continued working. Of course, we didn't have

18 ties with many of them but that's how it was.

19 Q. And how many people were working in the ministry at the time it

20 was moved or housed in the hotel on Mount Jahorina?

21 A. The number of people working there varied but it was between 10

22 and 15 at the most.

23 Q. What was your role or job within the ministry, please?

24 A. Our prime job was after the assembly was held of the Serb people

25 in Banja Luka, which elected and formed the army of Republika Srpska in

Page 19948

1 actual fact, was to prepare a law on defence and law on the army for the

2 Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was the first task we were

3 given so we undertook to draft those two laws. The army was also supposed

4 to prepare the law and draft the law for the army.

5 Q. Well, to some extent, that last answer deals with the question I'm

6 about to ask you, but the law on the army, to what degree were you

7 involved in its drafting?

8 A. I was involved on the draft -- drafting the law on defence. I

9 didn't work on the law for the army. That was done by the soldiers. And

10 it followed the assembly held in Banja Luka. During that period of time,

11 immediately after the assembly, that is, we took urgent measures to

12 prepare three provisions dealing with respect for international war law,

13 and we prepared an order already on the 13th of May for respect of the

14 international human rights, international conduct with respect to

15 prisoners of war, and with respect to the Geneva Conventions. All those

16 three provisions were drafted and prepared by the end of May 1992. And

17 all those three wartime provisions were sent up to the Main Staff, the

18 corps command, and the command of the Main Staff issued an order with

19 respect to the implementation of those instructions and guidelines. All

20 that was printed and then sent out to almost every single soldier in the

21 army of Republika Srpska.

22 Q. Could you turn to tab 6, please? This is an extract from the

23 Official Gazette of the Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina. In the -- they

24 had previously been exhibited on, we think, three occasions in this case,

25 P64, 65, 529. In fact, as the Court will see, in the English, there are

Page 19949

1 two completely separate translations but in the B/C/S, they form one

2 document, 156 and 157 of the gazette.

3 I first want to ask you about number 157, please. This is a

4 lengthy document running to 84 articles. It's signed by Dr. Karadzic, 1st

5 of June 1992, in the gazette of the same day. Is this the law on defence

6 that you were just telling us about that you were primarily responsible

7 for drafting?

8 A. That's right. That's it. That's the text of the law. Although,

9 you can't be the author or have authorship over a law. A law is enacted

10 by the authorities authorised to do so but, yes, that's the draft that we

11 prepared.

12 Q. Now, for our presentation, we have not included the history of

13 this law, and I appreciate that you were involved in drafting it some

14 years ago. But in absolute summary, what documents did you use, if you

15 can remember, in order to prepare it?

16 A. Well, the basis for this law was the previous law on total

17 national defence for Bosnia-Herzegovina. And for the most part, we

18 endeavoured to proscribe the position and role of all the state organs of

19 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and their competences and

20 authorisations in the field of defence. As I say, the basis was the law

21 that was in force previously, the law on total national defence in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And in one of the ash tickles we say that an army

23 established in that way by the assembly would be regulated by a separate

24 law. Of course, this law on defence had already established the chain of

25 command for the defence and army of Republika Srpska by the president of

Page 19950

1 the republic or rather from the level of president of the republic right

2 down to the Main Staff.

3 Q. Were you involved in any of the political mechanics in organising

4 the passing of this law by the Serb assembly?

5 A. I was not directly involved in any political activities. I

6 already emphasised that. This law was passed urgently because that's what

7 the situation was like. The Muslim-Croatian coalition proclaimed a state

8 of war in Bosnia-Herzegovina and a decision was passed in Sarajevo to form

9 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so all in all, there were not many

10 political activities preceding this law. There was a demand to pass the

11 law and to regulate the most urgent matters which were the position of all

12 the institutions, the state institutions in defence and to regulate the

13 overall relationships in the army of Republika Srpska.

14 Q. I'd like, please, now, to have a look at number 156 in the same

15 gazette, please.

16 This is the law on amending the constitutional law for

17 implementing the constitution of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

18 and it relates to a decision about War Presidencies. Were you involved in

19 drafting this law?

20 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, before the witness proceeds, I would

21 benefit from some direction. I have been in tab 6, following the

22 discussion about the law on defence, and now the reference to number 156

23 has not assisted me in finding the document to which counsel is now

24 referring.

25 MR. JOSSE: This, in my version of the bundle, is the very first

Page 19951

1 document in English.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It's a two-page document from what I see, page

3 numbers 27 and 28, handwritten tab 6.

4 MR. TIEGER: Yes, thank you.



7 Q. So my question, Mr. Kapetina, was whether you were involved in the

8 drafting of this law.

9 A. No. I wasn't involved in the drafting of this other law. But I

10 was aware of it.

11 Q. And what was your understanding of what it meant?

12 A. I believe that I have learned to read laws. I know what a norm is

13 and in my view it says in the article one in this law that it is only

14 during a state of war that the Presidency is expanded with the following

15 members that are listed herein. And since in the Srpska Republic of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina no state of war was proclaimed, or at least not during

17 the passing of this law, then this remained just a possibility. If a state

18 of war was ever declared, then the Presidency could be expanded by the

19 following officials, the president of the national assembly and the Prime

20 Minister of the government.

21 Q. And it may be an obvious question but why do you say that a state

22 of war was never declared? What -- put another way, what does the

23 term "state of war" mean?

24 A. Well, the law defines who is it who proclaims a state of war. And

25 if that person, who is authorised or that body that is authorised, which

Page 19952

1 is the parliament or, when it cannot assemble it is the president of the

2 republic, and if such a state has not been proclaimed by them then such a

3 state does not exist. A state of war can only exist if it has been

4 proclaimed as such by the body or the person authorised to do so by the

5 law.

6 Q. As far as you were concerned, as a person working both in Pale and

7 in particular in the Ministry of Defence, was there an expanded Presidency

8 in Republika Srpska in 1992?

9 A. In Republika Srpska, in keeping with the constitution and laws,

10 there was just a Presidency, and the composition of the Presidency was

11 clearly defined, a president and two vice-presidents. That was the

12 Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. There was no

13 expanded presidency, as an institution. Later on, there was the president

14 of the republic or the chair person or the president of the Presidency and

15 then just the president of the republic. This is the chronology: First

16 there was a three-member Presidency, and then there was a Presidency with

17 one president and two vice-presidents, and finally when Republika Srpska

18 was established, then the president of the republic was appointed. There

19 was never any appointed Presidency especially not in the situation of an

20 immediate threat of war. It is always very clearly defined by the law

21 that an independent individual person is in charge of the army, rather

22 than a collective body. It is not possible for a collective body to be in

23 charge of commanding. I am very well aware of that detail because I had

24 to be aware who it is who issues commands to whom and when.

25 Q. Well, let's turn to that issue, since you've raised it. Who did

Page 19953

1 command the army in 1992?

2 A. In 1992, immediately when the army was established, at the same

3 session or the session after that, instead of the Presidency, it was the

4 chairperson of the Presidency, Mr. Radovan Karadzic, who was put in

5 command of the army. Later on, until the moment the president was

6 appointed, he was still in command of the army, but acting as the

7 president of the republic. During the month of January, February, March,

8 and April, under the law, it was the three-member Presidency that was in

9 command. The president, two vice-presidents, but at that time we did not

10 have an army. Our army was just on paper.

11 Q. And are you able to give any opinion, again bearing in mind the

12 position that you held, of the actual influence the people you have just

13 mentioned had over the Serb -- well, the army of the people fighting on

14 behalf of the Serbs?

15 A. I think that all these people that performed those duties had

16 reputation among the people, among the troops - I'm talking about the

17 president and two vice-presidents - and this reputation was

18 unquestionable. There were some other individuals who -- whose influence

19 was adequate to the position they held in their respective institutions.

20 Of course, the civil -- civilian command had the most influence over the

21 army, because it bore the highest responsibility.

22 Q. I'll deal with one specific matter now, if I may. Tab 7. These

23 are -- previously have been exhibited. According to our records, P64,

24 P65, P583, minutes from the 22nd government, meeting of the Serb republic

25 held on the 7th of June 1992. And I want you to turn, please, to the last

Page 19954

1 page in the B/C/S version. I want you to look at decree four, the

2 penultimate page in the English. It says the requests of corps and

3 hospital to use the supplies found in the building in which the hospital

4 what housed has been accepted.

5 Where was the Koran hospital, first of all?

6 A. It was in Pale. It used to be a hotel before that. When I

7 arrived in Pale, that hotel was already used as a hospital, a hospital

8 that was used to treat wounded and injured soldiers and civilians. It was

9 already as of the 10th of May when I arrived in Pale, that the hotel Koran

10 had already been turned into a hospital and it was used as a hospital

11 until the very end of the war. And I claim that with full certainty.

12 Q. What do you say to the suggestion that this place, the Koran, was

13 used to detain either enemy combatants or enemy civilians?

14 A. Not only that place or that building, I never heard information,

15 and I was well informed about the situation in Pale, that in Pale, there

16 was any sort of prison for any sort of prisoners. We did not even have a

17 prison for members of our own army, those who breached discipline. I

18 claim with full responsibility that in Pale, while I was there, there was

19 no prison there.

20 Q. And finally on this, are you able to comment at all about what it

21 actually says there, namely the request of the hospital to use the

22 supplies found within the building? Do you know anything about that

23 specifically?

24 A. Well, if that was a hotel, and indeed it was a hotel, that means

25 that there were some leftovers that the hotel had used for its guests.

Page 19955

1 The government was required to issue a decision to allow the hospital to

2 use all those goods. There would be a subsequent compensation for that.

3 Those were not a -- state reserves. Those goods and leftovers were

4 property of the hotel, and a decision should be issued to the effect of

5 allowing the hospital to use them.

6 MR. JOSSE: Would that be a convenient moment, Your Honour?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it would. Could you give us an indication,

8 Mr. Josse, on how much time you would still need?

9 MR. JOSSE: Yes. I would now be surprised if I went beyond the

10 first session tomorrow.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And the witness was scheduled for?

12 MR. JOSSE: I think six hours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Six hours.

14 MR. JOSSE: I think I'm going to be rather less than that. That's

15 my present estimate.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, fine. Then we will adjourn for the day.

17 I'd like to instruct you, Mr. Kapetina, not to speak with anyone

18 about the testimony you have given until now, neither to speak with anyone

19 about the testimony still to be given in the days to come.

20 We would like to see you back tomorrow in this same courtroom at a

21 quarter past two.

22 We stand adjourned.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of

25 January, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.