Page 20220
1 Monday, 23 January 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.11 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is case number IT-00-39-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Mr. Josse, are you ready to continue the examination of Witness
12 D14?
13 MR. JOSSE: I am, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have to go into private session? I think we
15 finished in private session last Friday, isn't it?
16 MR. JOSSE: We did finish in private session. We don't need to
17 begin in private session, no.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
19 MR. JOSSE: Could the witness have the bundle, please. Could the
20 witness turn to tab 4.
21 WITNESS: WITNESS D14 [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examined by Mr. Josse: [Continued]
24 Q. If you look, D14, at the first chart that appears in that bundle,
25 are any of the names of the individuals that appear in that chart familiar
Page 20221
1 to you, yes or no?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Which names are familiar to you?
4 THE INTERPRETER: We can't hear the witness. We cannot hear the
5 witness.
6 MR. JOSSE:
7 Q. Witness, could you stop, please. It's my fault. Could I ask you
8 to begin again and read out which names are familiar to you?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Josse, before we continue, is this tab 4
10 document related to the tab 3 document? That's in my mind. That's also
11 what I could imagine on the basis of some writing at the bottom.
12 MR. JOSSE: Well, it is. There's no secret about that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please first clarify what this is, who
14 drafted it, unless you just want these names.
15 MR. JOSSE: Well, I was going to attempt to deal with this in a
16 slightly different fashion.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But you are aware of my concern at this moment
18 and the concern of the Chamber. Please proceed and Mr. Harmon will
19 certainly -- it's always a bit difficult if I invite you to explain
20 exactly; that might not be the proper thing to do in the presence of the
21 witness. At the same time, you're now aware of my concern.
22 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I would invite the Court to go into
23 private session, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
25 [Private session]
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14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.
18 MR. JOSSE:
19 Q. Do you accept, Witness, in 1992 by the end of summer and the
20 beginning of autumn there was a large movement of non-Serb population from
21 Kotor Varos?
22 A. Yes. I have to say that the initial request came at the beginning
23 of summer, the beginning of June, and there was some smaller group that
24 left already as early as that.
25 Q. Why did you understand that these people were leaving?
Page 20227
1 A. There are several reasons in my mind. One of the reasons was the
2 fact that the Croat population of Kotor Varos had some -- somebody that
3 worked abroad in every family. And since the living conditions were
4 getting harder and more and more uncertain, for that reason it was better
5 for him to go to the areas where there were more supplies, where it was
6 easier to provide for one's family. On the other hand, combat activities
7 had already started in the territory of Kotor Varos municipality. The
8 town itself was encircled, and the places surrounding Kotor Varos belonged
9 to Croats or Muslims because the majority population there was either
10 Croat or Muslim. In those places, there were armed formations, at the
11 time paramilitary formations. And since negotiations were in place for
12 them to surrender their weapons and those negotiations were only partly
13 successful, what I'm saying is that from some places the weapons were
14 returned, but from the others they weren't. And from the latter, there
15 was sniper fire, there was mortar fire, even the hotel in the centre of
16 town was hit by a rocket launcher. For all those reasons, I believe that
17 people did not feel safe, and that was the second reason why they left.
18 Also, I think that there were also certain requests for some
19 people to be moved out because we had a situation. Once when the war was
20 already finished in 1995, from a Croatian place called Zabrdje, a lot of
21 Croats moved out that had stayed there throughout the war. Their houses
22 were intact, they were not damaged. We believed that they were invited to
23 leave the municipality of Kotor Varos because of the things that were
24 happening in Croatia in 1995.
25 Let me conclude. I believe that those were misfortunate people
Page 20228
1 who left the area for various reasons. They personally filed requests to
2 do that. It was their desire to leave.
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2 MR. JOSSE: Private session, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
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15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
17 MR. JOSSE:
18 Q. Witness, please turn in the bundle to tab 7.
19 MR. JOSSE: I appreciate and apologise for the fact that all these
20 documents presently, Your Honour, are untranslated, but I think I'm going
21 to be able to assist.
22 Q. Am I right, Witness, that what chart -- tab 7 is relates to
23 criminal charges filed by the military police to the military prosecutor's
24 office dated the 13th of September, 1993, against four individuals for
25 breaking into the flat of a person and taking away money in various
Page 20250
1 currencies and other values?
2 A. Correct, four persons are involved. The military prosecutor of
3 the military court in Banja Luka received a report, a criminal report, in
4 1993 for the crimes that were committed on the 11th of September, 1993, in
5 the apartment belonging to Zdenka Abazic. At gunpoint, her husband
6 said -- was forced to give these persons 2.000 German marks, 1.300
7 Austrian shillings, 192 American dollars, 150 Swiss francs, one player,
8 one synthesiser, and two swords.
9 Q. Are you able to help us with the ethnicity, firstly, of Zdenka
10 Abazic?
11 A. Either Bosniak, Muslim that is, or Croat. And Sead, her husband,
12 is a Muslim.
13 Q. What about the alleged perpetrators of this crime? There are four
14 of them.
15 A. The four of them are Serbs.
16 Q. Have you any idea what happened to the allegation against these
17 four Serbs?
18 A. I don't know.
19 MR. JOSSE: Could that have a number, please.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 7, Your Honours, would be D127.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness D14, could you tell us if you have similar
23 examples of 1992?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that there were criminal
25 reports of that sort.
Page 20251
1 JUDGE ORIE: I mean do you have any document on 1992 which gives
2 us a similar insight on proceedings or at least reports brought against
3 suspects?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next document was issued on the
5 28th of June, 1992. Again, there are four Serb perpetrators involved.
6 They committed, according to this allegation, rapes of several non-Serb
7 women --
8 MR. JOSSE:
9 Q. Can I stop you, Witness? Can I stop you. This is tab 9. Is that
10 right?
11 MR. JOSSE: I was going to turn to this, Your Honour, but we're
12 now going to -- I didn't want to interrupt Your Honour's question.
13 Perhaps --
14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I apologise, but under "criminal
15 charges" does it say what the profession of the perpetrators is? If I
16 have understood things correctly, it contains the date of birth, place of
17 birth perhaps, but is there anything that indicates what their profession
18 is?
19 MR. JOSSE: I'm just having that checked. Perhaps again we can
20 clarify one matter. As we go along we will answer Your Honour's question,
21 if we may.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps we first -- I take it that you want
23 that exhibited as well?
24 MR. JOSSE: May I suggest we go to tab 8 next.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
Page 20252
1 MR. JOSSE:
2 Q. Because tab 8, Witness, is in fact the proposed indictment in
3 relation to the offenders mentioned in tab 7. Is that correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And is it right that if we look at tab 8 it mentions the
6 occupation of the alleged perpetrators of this crime?
7 A. Correct, and their marital status. And in document under tab 9,
8 there is something important --
9 Q. Stop. Stop, please. We'll come to tab 9 in a moment. Tell the
10 learned Judge the occupation of each of the men in tab 8. Give their name
11 and give their occupation, please.
12 A. Could we go into private session, please?
13 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
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24 [Open session]
25 MR. HARMON:
Page 20298
1 Q. Witness, you gave us some evidence yesterday about the events in
2 Kotor Varos relating to World War II which generated fear among the Serb
3 population, and then you also related having seen refugees. Can you tell
4 us what it was about those refugees that made an impact on you?
5 A. Well, I had a feeling that they had been forced to leave their
6 houses, that they did it in a haste. They mostly travelled in horse-carts
7 and in tractors. In some cases, they had a few trailers. They had things
8 covered by pieces of nylon or tarpaulin. They were mostly elderly people,
9 elderly men, women, and children. It was the first time for me to see any
10 refugees. Before that, I only saw them in movies and I always thought
11 that this was part of the set and just part of the feature movie for
12 people to watch. But then I realised that this was a sad reality for
13 those people and that they had been forced to leave their households.
14 Q. Were you affected in any way by their lack of material resources?
15 A. Their things were scattered all over, and most of the women and
16 children were crying, in a disheveled state. And it was difficult for me
17 to see anybody in such a condition. And, as I've already said, this was
18 the first time for me to see any refugees.
19 Q. Did it appear to you that they had with them material resources
20 sufficient to take care of their needs, their future needs?
21 A. Their possessions were mostly covered by nylons, tarpaulins. I
22 don't know what they had, but it seemed to me that they had just the bare
23 necessities, that they only had what they could get hold of, that they
24 could grab in a haste.
25 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I think this is an appropriate time for
Page 20299
1 a break.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's close to 2.00.
3 MR. JOSSE: I want to deal with one very short matter in the
4 absence of the witness, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 Then let's ask Madam Usher to escort the witness out of the
7 courtroom.
8 But, Witness D14 -- first of all the technicians are instructed
9 not to show the face of the witness when leaving the courtroom. First, I
10 would like to instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony
11 you have given and still are to give and would like to see you back
12 tomorrow - we are not sitting in the morning but we are sitting in the
13 afternoon - in this same courtroom at a quarter past 2.00.
14 Madam Usher.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I think we're still in open session. We
17 are, yes, please proceed.
18 MR. JOSSE: I don't expect an answer to this from Prosecution
19 immediately, but I'd like to inquire formally whether P1045 has ever been
20 served on the Defence under Rule 68. That's my only matter.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I take it that you'll be able to check
22 that --
23 MR. HARMON: Quite quickly, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- tomorrow.
25 MR. HARMON: Quite quickly, Your Honour. And Your Honours had
Page 20300
1 asked for the exhibit numbers of those previous cases. I don't know if I
2 had given them to you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. HARMON: They're P202 and P203.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And then finally, if we're talking about numbers
6 anyhow, where referring to sacrosanct words I immediately made a mistake
7 where I said P1046 and 1043 were admitted into evidence because the
8 exhibits admitted to evidence are P1043 up to and including P1043. That
9 has been -- now I made a mistake again. It's P1036 up to and including
10 P1043. I apologise for the mistake.
11 We stand adjourned until quarter past 2.00 tomorrow.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 24th day of
14 January, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.
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