1 Monday, 27 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 WITNESS: SINISA KRSMAN: [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, I'd like to remind you that you're still

13 bound by the solemn declaration that you gave at the beginning of your

14 testimony. Mr. Tieger will now continue his cross-examination.

15 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krsman. Before returning to the subject we

19 were discussing before the adjournment on Friday I'd like to return

20 briefly to a couple of other matters. First I'd like to direct your

21 attention to tab 13, I don't know if you have the bundle -- apparently you

22 don't have the bundle in front of you just yet.

23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, tab 13 contains P826, tab 7, and that's

24 a document bearing various entries chronological entries relevant to

25 Rajlovac municipality.

1 Q. And just to orient you quickly, Mr. Krsman, if you'll turn to the

2 third page you'll see an entry for February 23rd, 1992, for example, which

3 reflects assembly of Rajlovac Serb municipality and as you indicated

4 during the course of your testimony that was the date of its

5 establishment.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, if I could also -- if I could ask you to turn to an earlier

8 entry of February 12th, 1992, which appears about three entries before

9 that one, and it begins Lemez land surveyor. It mentions a meeting on

10 Sunday in Reljevo and it makes reference to drawing the map of the new

11 municipality borders. And then it continues with some demographic

12 indications referring to the local area of Zuc Dolac. And the entries

13 that I see are in two columns, so next to the entry for Serbs it says, 368

14 and 1470, next to the entry for Muslims, 85 and 346, for Croats 7 and 26

15 and for Romanies, 11 and 96.

16 So first of all, Mr. Krsman, I'm wondering if you can explain to

17 the Court what the two entries specifically reflect, that is the two

18 entries for each of the listed ethnic groups.

19 A. All I can say is that I'm seeing this for the first time. I

20 didn't write this so I really don't know what all this means. I can only

21 assume that as it says, Romanies, 11, that they lived up there by the

22 refuse dump. I know that there were Croats. As to the rest, I really

23 can't say. It's probably a percentage of some kind, the number of

24 inhabitants.

25 Q. Okay. Well to the best of your recollection, at or in February of

1 1992, would that be a roughly accurate reflection of the number of

2 inhabitants in the local area of Zuc Dolac, that is Serbs, 1470, Muslims

3 346, Croats 26, and Romanies, 96?

4 A. Well, I can't guarantee that that is it because I really don't

5 know about these figures.

6 Q. Okay. And I appreciate that I'm asking you about very specific

7 figures. More generally, however, I'd like to know if that approximates

8 generally your understanding of the approximate population figures of that

9 area in February of 1992.

10 A. As far as my knowledge goes with respect to the Zuc Dolac

11 municipality, all I can say is that I knew the people that I associated

12 with, even with the population census it wasn't my region, it wasn't the

13 area where I conducted a population census so I really can't say whether

14 this corresponds to the situation on the ground. I assume that the person

15 who wrote this would give you an answer to that.

16 Q. Okay. And ask -- again, I'm not trying to push you for

17 information you don't have, just trying to ask questions that may elicit

18 such information as you do have. So irrespective of your precise

19 knowledge of the exact population figures, were you aware in February of

20 1992 that in Zuc Dolac there was a preponderance of Serbs and then the --

21 and then some hundreds of Muslims followed by a relative handful of Croats

22 and Romanies?

23 A. Roughly speaking that would be the percentage but I don't know

24 what this means, 1470 Serbs, there certainly weren't that many Serbs

25 there. Perhaps the figure of 368 is the correct figure. I don't know

1 what this 1470 refers to because I'm quite sure there weren't that many

2 Serbs in Zuc Dolac.

3 Q. And I asked about your understanding of the general proportion of

4 Serbs and Muslims and Croats because we had addressed that issue in your

5 earlier testimony in looking at the composition of the newly established

6 Rajlovac municipality in February of 1992. And for your benefit I'll just

7 note that the populated areas that comprised the Rajlovac municipality are

8 found at tab 12, listed in the law on the establishment of Rajlovac

9 municipality. And we talked about the composition of Rajlovac a couple of

10 times and on Friday, I had again asked you about that in connection with

11 the law I just referred to at tab 12, and you mentioned -- I directed your

12 attention to Ahatovici and then I asked you about which of the other

13 populated areas were populated with Muslims. You mentioned -- I asked you

14 about Brijesce and then you mentioned Smiljevici, Brijesce and the 21st of

15 May and said the rest were all ethnically pure areas. So I take it that

16 would be correct, that it's not accurate to say that the rest were all

17 ethnically pure areas but at least Dolac and Zuc were populated by

18 Muslims.

19 A. Well I'll be very precise in my answer, Zuc was an ethnically pure

20 Serb village whereas Dolac is a continuation of that village just like

21 Smiljevici is a continuation of Zabrdje village. And in Dolac you had

22 Romanies, Croats, and Muslims living there. The Roma are a people who do

23 not have a permanent place of residence. They lived up there because

24 there was a refuse depot there. That's why they lived there. They made

25 their livelihood on the basis of that depot and I know that Zuc is purely

1 Serb, but Dolac, I do allow for the possibility that there was populated

2 by the Muslims, Roma and so on. So the first number, 368 would be

3 correct, 85 Muslims would be correct, 7 Croats, and 11 Roma. Now, all the

4 others expelled all the Serbs from Zuc on the 17th of May. The Muslims

5 did. When the genocide took place and the expulsion from Pogaric [phoen],

6 and not a single Serb was left living in Zuc after that.

7 Q. By what date were there no longer any Muslims living in the

8 Rajlovac municipality?

9 A. In the municipality of Rajlovac there were Muslims throughout the

10 war but a very small number. And I think sometime after August, that

11 there were not large numbers of Muslims as there were prior to the

12 outbreak of the war.

13 Q. Now, on Friday, we also had the opportunity to look briefly at

14 what in fact I think Mr. Josse asked you some questions about the extent

15 of and form of military preparation by Serbs in the Rajlovac area. And if

16 I understood you correctly, you were saying that -- you spoke about the

17 surprise experienced by the Serbs of Rajlovac on -- upon May 8th and the

18 fact that not a single trench was dug or any "any military formations of

19 that kind." And that was at page 26 of the LiveNote. So did I understand

20 that correctly, Mr. Krsman, that you were -- you wanted the Court to

21 understand that the Serbs of Rajlovac had no military formations of any

22 kind before May 8th, which was the date that you described an attack on

23 the Rajlovac barracks?

24 A. Now, the first part of your question, my answer to that is that we

25 really did not have a single solitary trench dug out, not a single trench.

1 Now as far as military formations were concerned, we were organised as

2 I've already said as village watches and we were organised to put up a

3 defence at the separation line towards Sokolje, according to the areas we

4 lived in and according to the number of houses in the area, until the army

5 of Republika Srpska was formed.

6 Q. Well, it may be a problem of translation and semantics but village

7 watch to me connotes a kind of very informal neighbourhood, extremely

8 loosely organised group, in contrast to something organised like a company

9 under the command of the army or the TO or the police. So -- so is it

10 correct that you're making a distinction between those two kinds of groups

11 and indicating that prior to May 8th only the former, very loosely

12 associated group existed?

13 A. Yes, that's right. I've already said that, that we had agreement

14 with our neighbours the Muslims, that we had mined the area the terrain

15 and we just had these groups that reconnoitered and observed and were

16 prepared to sound the alarm more than anything else, rather than to defend

17 ourselves in organised fashion, which showed -- which -- and this is what

18 happened when we had to move back into the depth of our territory for one

19 kilometre when the attack was launched on May the 8th.

20 Q. Can I ask you to turn your attention next, then, to tab 21,

21 please? And that's P372, Your Honour.

22 Now, P372, Mr. Krsman, is an order from the Rajlovac municipality

23 Crisis Staff in April 1992 that directs the following: The active

24 observation of the entire territory of Rajlovac municipality is being

25 ordered, and platoon commanders and the Crisis Staff are to be informed on

1 everything noticed. Number 2, TO unit members are forbidden to drink

2 alcohol while on duty. The work of catering facilities after 2200 hours

3 is also forbidden. Number 3, directs one policeman and two TO members to

4 be at the checkpoint towards the distribution centre 24 hours a day. And

5 orders that the Rajlovac platoon commander and the commander of the

6 illegible unit are placed in charge in cooperation with the police

7 commander and finally indicates that all other activities are to be done

8 in accordance with the previously determined obligations on all

9 territories.

10 Mr. Krsman, what is the Rajlovac -- who was the Rajlovac platoon

11 commander, first of all?

12 A. Well, that's a broad question. The commander of the Rajlovac

13 platoon -- well, there wasn't one commander so I don't know what you have

14 in mind. In my company, I had three platoon commanders. So that's one --

15 just one part of the unit. Furthermore it says here the distribution

16 centre and the checkpoint there, that isn't my area of responsibility so I

17 don't know which Crisis Staff this is and what this refers to. We had a

18 number of Crisis Staff, Zabrdje, Rajlovac, the Crisis Staff of, I don't

19 know, Dobrosevici probably. I don't know who signed this. I can't see a

20 signature. All I can see is that the date is the 9th of April which is

21 already the time when the fires had flared up throughout Bosnia and Bozic

22 [phoen] petrol pump. This might be the Rajlovac Crisis Staff together

23 with the Rajlovac municipality. And as you can see, the police was still

24 operating so this is in cooperation with the police chief. We didn't have

25 a police station in Zabrdje. It was in Rajlovac.

1 Q. So it would be correct to say, then, that at least as of April

2 9th, defensive activities undertaken to protect against various risks,

3 were undertaken by both the police of Rajlovac and the Rajlovac platoon or

4 platoons?

5 A. Of course this sort of observation was set up. There is nothing

6 that I challenge there.

7 Q. And was it the Rajlovac platoon that received the 202 weapons that

8 came from the Rajlovac barracks? Or was it some other formation?

9 A. Well, sir, a platoon is -- has a maximum much 30 men and I said

10 that our village, Zabrdje, received 202 pieces of ammunition -- pieces of

11 weapons which means that all the able bodied men from my village, I don't

12 know what this platoon is, what platoon this is, what it refers to,

13 perhaps it's a police platoon. Well, it says here the commander of the

14 Reljevo unit and that's a village which is opposite in Bosnia, which was

15 organised in some other way apart from the platoons and that's what it

16 says here.

17 Q. That was a Serb village also, I think you indicated to us the

18 other day, correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So apart from the police, in the Rajlovac municipality, which

21 presumably operated in the various populated areas you described in your

22 earlier testimony, how many organised platoons were operating in the

23 Rajlovac municipality? Either in Reljevo, Zabrdje or any of the other

24 populated areas that comprised Rajlovac?

25 A. I know about Zabrdje. As to the other places, I really don't

1 know. I wasn't interested. Most probably they were organised according

2 to the number of inhabitants.

3 Q. And their activities were being at least coordinated, as this

4 order indicates, and as the anniversary speech that we looked at the other

5 day also indicated, by the Crisis Staff, correct?

6 A. Well, they weren't coordinated until the army of Republika Srpska

7 was established. We all had our own problems and they were all different

8 problems, not of the same nature. And if Reljevo was two or three

9 kilometres away from Zabrdje, the people over there thought that the war

10 would be in Slovenia or somewhere far away at the beginning. So you must

11 realise that we Serbs really did not believe that a war would break out

12 but with that first attack on the 8th of May, everything slowly began to

13 change and the Territorial Defence began to be established as was the army

14 of Republika Srpska.

15 Q. Well, let's -- I don't want to dwell on this for too long but I

16 think it's important to separate what you claim to be the subjective

17 impression of the Serbian population about the likelihood of war from the

18 activities that were undertaken prior to the war. Now, you say there was

19 no -- they weren't coordinated until the army of Republika Srpska was

20 established. I don't want to compare the level of coordination and the

21 any improvement in coordination that might have taken place after the

22 establishment of the RS, but this order directs the active observation of

23 the entire territory of Rajlovac municipality, and states that platoon

24 commanders and the Crisis Staff are to be informed on everything noticed.

25 So isn't it correct to say that by April 9th, 1992, that effort was being

1 undertaken by the Crisis Staff over the breadth of the Rajlovac

2 municipality?

3 A. Well, this is what I can say. Take a look at this order. It

4 should say at the end who it is addressed to, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. It

5 doesn't say who it's addressed to. So nothing was formally or officially

6 established. This is something written out on a white piece of paper says

7 Crisis Staff, but if it doesn't say who the addressees are, perhaps this

8 order never reached anyone. Perhaps it was sent to one person or one

9 addressee or more, we don't know. And as the war progressed, we organised

10 ourselves to protect our lives and our property. So that's all I can say.

11 I really don't know what else to add.

12 Q. Mr. Krsman, and this is I think the last question I'll ask about

13 this order, you don't really want this Court to believe that this order

14 was written out and then directed to some fictitious and invented TO units

15 or some non-existent and fanciful platoons?

16 A. No. That's not what I said. Certainly not. It was certainly

17 sent to the police station and perhaps a platoon but I don't know which

18 platoon. It wasn't the platoon from Zabrdje at any rate.

19 Q. Now, I indicated that we would return to the area we had been

20 discussing when we adjourned on Friday, and if I recall correctly at that

21 time, we had addressed the remarks of Mr. Trifko Radic at the January 1993

22 Bosnian Serb Assembly about the evil that we, meaning the Serbs, as

23 Mr. Radic was speaking, had caused them, presumably meaning the Muslims

24 and Croats. And I had asked you about your knowledge of shelling, and

25 that is massive shelling of areas heavily populated by civilians in

1 Sarajevo, and you had indicated that -- let me be precise about that, if I

2 may. You were unaware of any targeting of civilian areas or civilians.

3 You recall that general discussion, Mr. Krsman?

4 A. Of course.

5 Q. Well, in connection with that, then, I'd like to play an

6 intercepted telephone conversation that took place on the 11th of May

7 1992.

8 MR. TIEGER: That's found at tab 20.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Needs a number, as far as I can see, Mr. --

10 MR. TIEGER: It does, Your Honour.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1134, Your Honour, B/C/S transcript

12 P1134.A, and the English transcript P1134.A.1.

13 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, this is relatively long. I took a

14 look at it to see if it was amenable to clipping. I didn't conclude that

15 at the end it would be helpful to the Court to do so. So I would like to

16 play that in its entirety.

17 [Intercept played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

19 "Smajic: Can we have Colonel Kobagovic [as interpreted]. Let me

20 give you two sentences so we can continue talking. If you've heard of my

21 name. Then, okay. I completed military academy in Belgrade. I was an

22 active officer for 7 and a half years, and I was a journalist for 14

23 and -- or 15 years.

24 Gagovic: So now you have a very nice job.

25 Smajic: Well, it all depends on how you decide to treat it.

1 Colonel, kindly listen to me for a couple of minutes and it may be

2 useful -- it may be mutually useful and mutually beneficial. I'm a local

3 of Brijesce near the school. I have a couple [as interpreted] of friends

4 and I have relatives, and I have relatives in the Rajlovac barracks, both

5 officers and civilians. Yesterday, all day, I did not work at Yutel. I

6 have not worked in Yutel for four days now and I have reasons why I don't

7 work. After the tragic event two days ago, we inspected the villages of

8 Sokolje, this mosque, we were in Zabrdje. Mirko Krajisnik expressed his

9 condolences, we returned by the people with a good reason and yesterday I

10 was for the first time in the Rajlovac barracks. We inspected the

11 barracks. We calmed people down. We saw what people were doing and we

12 asked them not to provoke anybody, to be dignified and that the army

13 should withdraw in a dignified way without the involvement of politics,

14 and it was calm yesterday. I was at -- the television interrupted me at

15 the time and what happened yesterday, an hour ago, guided missiles, I told

16 you that I completed a military academy, and I know what weapons are, what

17 weapons are. Guided missiles hit six times and struck at the building of

18 the television. After that, five or six missiles fell over the television

19 building. I believe that the tower was targeted.

20 Gagovic: When you're talking about guided missiles, do you mean

21 guided missiles?

22 Smajic: Yes, guided missiles.

23 Gagovic: They have a target and they can hit it. 3.000, yes, 3

24 kilometres. So after they missed --

25 Smajic: Actually, I don't know if they missed or didn't.

1 Gagovic: Yes.

2 Smajic: General cannon fire began including attack on the

3 settlements, Boljakov Potok up there. What is it called? Sokolje and

4 Brijesce Brdo, the areas we visited yesterday. We begged them and asked

5 them and informed them about everything. Inhabitants of these hamlets

6 went with us yesterday to the barracks and they talked to relevant

7 officers. Miletic was out of the barracks and the officers in charge of

8 security talked to us. Some of them are my relatives and let me tell you

9 straight away: They saw for themselves that they wouldn't be the first

10 ones to open the fire. However, we have evidence from the day before

11 yesterday, we have photographs, and binocular proofs, and so on and so

12 forth. Evidence that a provocation aimed at the barracks of Rajlovac came

13 from the hill of Zuc. After that, enormous fire was opened at those

14 settlements. Something else happened today. I'm now at the TV building.

15 Bullets, shells, anti-aircraft projectiles, and who knows what else is

16 flying over the building. In any case, salvos continue to fall down on

17 those settlements. I assure you that it has been agreed upon the day

18 before yesterday that nobody is allowed to fire one shot. Because they

19 don't want and not wish to use automatic weapons of any kind or weapons

20 before it is decided what will happen with the municipality of Rajlovac.

21 As a human being I would like to tell you that it is 99 per cent sure that

22 it was the case of international provocation -- intentional provocation

23 because three settlements with inhabitants of pure Muslim nationality have

24 been frantically shelled. As a human being I would like to warn you so

25 that you can consider your position. Because we ought to live as human

1 beings, as fathers, or members of families and so on. The war will be

2 over. Therefore, I wish to inform you, the firsthand knowledge.

3 Gagovic: Smajic.

4 Smajic: Please.

5 Gagovic: I respect it completely and I appreciate such

6 information.

7 Smajic: Yes. Okay.

8 Gagovic: But just before 2000 hours.

9 Smajic: Yes.

10 Gagovic: Colonel Miletic, I think you know him personally.

11 Smajic: I do, I called him ten times.

12 Gagovic: He called me and said, Please they are shelling us from

13 mortars again, from the region of Boljakov Potok, and I read as he said,

14 Bresko Brdo.

15 Smajic: Sir.

16 Gagovic: He swore to me. I have written here. I asked him again

17 and repeated it. I give Miletic his phone number 450973 to Mr. Abdic. I

18 called Mr. Abdic and I said to Mr. Fikret, from this region and to

19 intervene, to stop it, to prevent destroying facilities, houses and

20 especially to prevent killing people.

21 Smajic: Sir.

22 Gagovic: Yes.

23 Smajic: Take my word for that. I swear by my children. First of

24 all, you know that mortars shells can be heard at least from Boljakov

25 Potok up to here. Only the river and one road divide us. I assure you we

1 had meeting on that side exactly because our premises, my premises are

2 next to Boljakovo side. And we were just beginning -- bringing our

3 meeting to an end in a better spirit and encouraged by the decision that

4 there would be no more shooting and that everything is fine. And after

5 that we got up, put the chairs back, and two terrible detonations took

6 place on the 6th floor. On the 6th floor they shook us up. We all jumped

7 and ran out and went to the ground floor.

8 Gagovic: I believe that.

9 Smajic: General cannon fire started ten minutes later towards that

10 settlement. Trust me, I'm telling you. Secondly, these people from

11 Sokolje, Boljakovo, and Brijesce hill came yesterday and asked through

12 us ... I informed Miletic, Abdic, and all relevant people about it. They

13 are requesting an expertise, military and your expertise from Lukavica.

14 From Rajlovac. UNPROFOR, EC, whoever wants to. Monitors,

15 helicopters, reconnaissance aircrafts, everything, to identify positions

16 from which it is allegedly being fired at the barracks in Rajlovac.

17 Please. Today ... I received 100 calls from Sokolje, Brijesce, and so on.

18 People have their eyes fixed upon thee because they think I can do

19 something about it. They say that absolutely everyone is in the cellars

20 and shelters and that it is not logical to open such heavy fire using

21 artillery pieces at them. I want to assure that that was the case.

22 Gagovic: I agree with you, there are so-called free riflemen. I

23 also assure that you these units called JNA, or so-called JNA, as it is

24 popular nowadays to call them.

25 Smajic: Do you hear these detonations?

1 Gagovic: I hear them. They are going in all directions. Those

2 are light rocket-launchers. After that, up there in Faletici, after

3 requisition of assets, people armed themselves. And they are carrying

4 these tubes, two missiles on the back. They get caught in an ambush and

5 fire from another place, and that is what is called free marksman. Nobody

6 controls them and commands them. I guarantee that.

7 "The ones who are under military command are certainly not

8 using ... I was assuring Mr. Abdic of that a while ago and they were

9 assuring me for two or three nights that they were firing from the

10 barracks Marshal Tito. Today I enabled four of there man from Republic of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina TO to enter the barracks and to see for themselves that

12 nobody is firing from that barracks.

13 "I told them this: If you want 40 and not only four of your

14 monitors to check each of the JNA units, we guarantee your safety and

15 everything else. Let them come and see for themselves that nobody is

16 shooting from the JNA areas.

17 Smajic: Well, who fired at the television just now? Can you give

18 me an answer to that?

19 Gagovic: That is, if that was a missile, as you said, it was not

20 a guided missile. Those were light rocket-launchers, because guided

21 missiles are antitank.

22 Smajic: This is not a light launcher. That is a huge shell. We

23 thought that it was an airplane flying over.

24 Gagovic: No, no, no. That is -- you know exactly that. This is

25 that missile. It is 128 millimetres but it is called light because it has

1 one tube. It is a part of multiple launchers the army has. Territorial

2 Defence had them earlier. 11 launchers of that kind disappeared when

3 Faletici were destroyed.

4 And those launchers are used by -- to tell you the truth, I have

5 no idea who was using them. So that's about it. I will do whatever I can

6 to prevent what is coming, especially the victims.

7 Smajic: Everything is breaking apart here.

8 Gagovic: I also asked for Hadzici. Our repair and maintenance

9 depot has been attacked. Maybe you've been there before.

10 Smajic: Yes, I have. I have friends up there.

11 Gagovic: So there you go. You know what repair and maintenance

12 depot is.

13 Smajic: Yes.

14 Gagovic: Does that -- the army is leaving any way. That repair

15 and maintenance depot will remain for the use of the municipality of

16 Hadzici.

17 Isn't that a sin and disgrace to attack it and destroy it when

18 they know that it will be destroyed if it is taken away in such manner.

19 Smajic: That's true.

20 Gagovic: It doesn't make.

21 Smajic: I understand it completely. I also wanted to ask, beg

22 Miletic yesterday. However, he wasn't there to ...

23 Gagovic: You have his number. If you don't have it, it's

24 450973. Miletic's number.

25 Smajic: 45973?

1 Gagovic: 450.

2 Smajic: Yes.

3 Gagovic: 973.

4 Smajic: Yes.

5 Gagovic: Because of me, so that you don't think that Gagovic or

6 the units from Lukavica are shooting even though I am not. Someone else

7 is commander.

8 Smajic: I know.

9 Gagovic: But I'm in charge of communications between -- I mediate

10 between TO, and I don't know. These negotiators and units. So you could

11 see for yourself that you could see for yourself what kind of reports

12 should be submitted I forwarded it to operations centre because I

13 cannot -- if commander reports so then it ...

14 Smajic: Okay, that's clear, you see, sir. There has been shelling

15 at those settlements for the last hour.

16 Well, if -- the officer from Rajlovac confirmed to me that two

17 shells were fired this evening as a provocation, as a response, general

18 shelling took place. I mean, I cannot understand that. There were 250

19 houses out of 300 destroyed in Sokolje.

20 Gagovic: I can believe that. You see ...

21 Smajic: Is it really necessary to open such fire just because of

22 two shells, especially if it hadn't been confirmed that they really came

23 from the direction? Because, nowadays anybody can provoke, anybody who

24 has weapons, you know. And from the hill of Zuc ... For example, people

25 from Sokolje claim that the provocation came from the hill of Zuc and was

1 directed at the barracks in order to destroy Sokolje, and that is exactly

2 what is happening.

3 Gagovic: I don't know. I can't exclude even such a possibility,

4 so I don't exclude even such possibility.

5 Smajic: Can I ask you something as a human being?

6 Gagovic: Always.

7 Smajic: Please, if it is possible, after an hour of salvos and

8 destroying, stop it. I will get in touch with Miletic first thing in the

9 morning. I will ask him as a human being since he is leaving in a few

10 days.

11 Gagovic: Yes, I know.

12 Smajic: I will ask him to visit together those villages, to go

13 down to the little river to visit Zabrdje, Sokolje, and Gornje Brijesce.

14 So that he can see for himself that people are saying. Well, it is

15 impossible that 1500 people are lying.

16 Gagovic: Well, I agree ...

17 Smajic: That is impossible, believe me.

18 Gagovic: ... completely with you. But, you see, who is then the

19 one who ... of all these measures and manners.

20 Smajic: Yes.

21 Gagovic: Negotiations and talks, peaceful solutions, involving

22 the man whom I respect very much, Fikret Abdic.

23 Smajic: Yes.

24 Gagovic: Peace supporter, businessman. I guarantee that he's not

25 interested in any army and war but in the economy; however, there is

1 always somebody who disturbs, prevents, makes barricades. The last

2 reports says ...

3 Smajic: Extremists on both sides.

4 Gagovic: You see, they are reporting now, I don't know, that

5 Vrbanja bridge has been mined. There are gas bottles. I mean cistern ...

6 a cistern is placed on this bridge.

7 Smajic: Yes.

8 Gagovic: There are gas cisterns on the second bridge. Does

9 Sarajevo need it?

10 Smajic: Colonel, I thank you for your attention and your time.

11 Gagovic: There you go.

12 Smajic: But I am begging you.

13 Gagovic: Thank you. Likewise.

14 Smajic: I'm asking you to try to intervene and to stop all those

15 salvos and destroying. I swear to you that the last three or four

16 days ... I gave up my work in journalism until this madness is gone ... to

17 help, to connect. I have been mediating the whole day today, to organise

18 a meeting between Momcilo Krajisnik from Pale and Fikret Abdic.

19 Gagovic: I have also suggested that, to be honest with you.

20 Smajic: I'm working on that.

21 Gagovic: Because people don't want to understand that this party

22 has significant influence. It has. They are armed on the large scale.

23 They took the arms from Faletici. They have lethal weapons but they don't

24 have influence. There isn't, there isn't ...

25 Smajic: Thanks a lot.

1 Gagovic: Thank you.

2 Smajic: If you can consider, do something to stop this fire.

3 Gagovic: Do everything I can.

4 Smajic: Please.

5 Gagovic: For sure, I'll do what I can.

6 Smajic: Because nobody moved from there. The children are there.

7 The houses are built from concrete blocks. All life is built in there.

8 Please.

9 Gagovic: I agree with you completely and I'll do everything I

10 can, I assure you.

11 Smajic: Thank you. I'll call Pale now since I have to let them

12 know regarding Abdic.

13 Gagovic: Cheers.

14 Smajic: Thank you. Have a nice day.

15 Gagovic: Thanks. You too."

16 MR. TIEGER: I was just waiting to see if the French translation

17 was fine. I might note that on page 8 I noticed a discrepancy between the

18 English translation in print and what was reflected in the ongoing

19 translation from the booth, and it seemed to occur at a time when someone

20 was either turning a page or there was a lag in the translation. So.

21 JUDGE ORIE: There were a few more, Mr. Tieger, I noticed.

22 MR. TIEGER: Yes, okay.

23 Q. First of all, Mr. Krsman, you know who Milosav Gagovic was and

24 what his position was in May of 1992?

25 A. I don't know who Gagovic was but I do know who Zekerijah Smajic

1 was.

2 Q. If I indicate to you that Milosav Gagovic was an assistant

3 commander at the forward command post at Lukavica, would that jog your

4 memory at all about him?

5 A. I don't remember who he was but now that you've jogged my memory,

6 I think I know who he is so you can ask me questions based on that.

7 Q. All right. And you indicated you knew who Mr. Smajic was. I take

8 it that on May 11th, 1992, Gagovic was an officer stationed at Lukavica

9 and Smajic was, as he indicated, a journalist and I presume a Bosniak

10 journalist; is that right?

11 A. At the time he was a Muslim journalist.

12 Q. Okay. Now, without going into too many of the finer details,

13 Mr. Krsman, this intercept addresses and reflects a large-scale shelling

14 and subsequent destruction of a good portion of Sokolje as discussed

15 between Smajic and Gagovic, correct?

16 A. That amongst other things.

17 Q. And as Gagovic indicated -- Gagovic at least was telling Smajic

18 that the shelling had been done with the weapons taken from Faletici; is

19 that correct?

20 A. I do know where Faletici is, and that was one of the central

21 depots of the Territorial Defence in the former Yugoslavia. That depot

22 was under the control of Muslims and they are the ones who took those

23 weapons out of that depot because the depot was in the territory under

24 their control.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Krsman, you know that's not entirely true because you

1 know that the SDS took over a great number of weapons from Faletici, and

2 in fact it's the SDS to which Gagovic is referring in this intercept.

3 A. Sir, then you're not familiar with the map or with the situation.

4 Faletici was under Muslim control and the Territorial Defence in Faletici

5 could be entered only by Muslims, and it was the Muslims who took all that

6 from Faletici.

7 Q. And just to clarify, when I refer to the SDS, I mean more

8 generically either the forces of the SDS or the forces of the then

9 political authorities of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 That's what I'm referring to.

11 A. I don't know. I was not a member of the SDS. I still I was in

12 the defence of Republika Srpska from day 1 to the last day. The SDS does

13 not equal Republika Srpska. It's not the same thing.

14 Q. Okay. Well, you weren't a member of the SDS so I take it that's

15 your way of saying you don't know what the SDS was doing. Would you know

16 whether or not the forces of the authorities of the Serbian Republic of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina took over equipment and weapons from Faletici prior to

18 the beginning of May 1992?

19 A. I repeat once again, most of that equipment in Faletici was taken

20 by Muslims, 100 per cent -- I'm 100 per cent sure of that.

21 Q. And do you know whether or not the forces of the authorities of

22 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina took over weapons from Faletici

23 before May?

24 A. The depot in Faletici is in the territory under the control of

25 Muslims. Only one of its parts is on the other side, and is connected to

1 the territory under the control of Serbs. I know with reliability that

2 they even put up their guards. The Muslims did. I don't know who took

3 the weapons but I know that the Muslims took most of the weapons in the

4 Faletici depot.

5 Q. Well, it seems you're giving an answer based on logic and, if I

6 hear you correctly, you can't tell me whether the forces of Serbian

7 Republic took weapons or how many, is that basically it?

8 A. I'm saying this only because this is mentioned in here. Otherwise

9 I was not there. I'm not able to tell you. I don't know.

10 Q. Let me direct your attention, then, to, I think, a new tab.

11 Probably have to distribute that, Your Honour. These are the minutes of

12 the meeting of the national Security Council on 24 April 1992. Actually

13 the minutes of the meeting of the national Security Council and the

14 government. That's P65, tab 30.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We have a number already, yes.

16 MR. TIEGER:

17 Q. If I could direct your attention to the decisions that appear

18 under item 1, and looking in particular at the 8th listed decision, which

19 indicates as follows: "A decision was passed on making a complete

20 register of weapons and equipment taken over from Faletici on determining

21 the issuing and storing of part of the equipment and weapons currently not

22 being used. Radovan Karadzic, in charge."

23 Now, Mr. Krsman, that's a reference to the takeover of weapons and

24 equipment from Faletici by the forces of the authorities of the Serbian

25 Republic about which you apparently were unaware; is that correct?

1 A. It says here the decision is to be passed to establish a full unit

2 with the weapons that were taken over. That doesn't mean that all the

3 weapons were taken over but only some of it. And it is not hidden. This

4 is written down in order to be aware of who is using the weapons, and

5 they, when they took the weapons, nobody made sure to control that and

6 they are the ones who fired those weapons.

7 Q. Well, that's interesting, Mr. Krsman. So you're saying a decision

8 was passed and you're insisting on the significance of that to establish a

9 full unit with the weapons that were taken over under the direction of the

10 NSC and then you want to assert that when the weapons were used, they were

11 used by people who were not under control. Is that it?

12 A. No. You didn't understand me. It says what we are going to do

13 with the weapons that the Serbs took, and as for the weapons that were

14 taken by the Muslims, those weapons were out of control and those are the

15 weapons that were used to fire at us and hence problems in Smajici [phoen]

16 and the ones that the two people are talking about.

17 Q. No, but Gagovic is talking about weapons from Faletici being used

18 to shell and destroy Sokolje. Are you suggesting that Sokolje was shelled

19 and destroyed by the weapons taken by the Muslims and that's what Gagovic

20 was saying to Smajic?

21 A. No. The one does not have anything to do with the other. So

22 Sokolje was hit it was not razed to the ground and those are two totally

23 different terms. Fire was opened on Sokolje as a result of previous

24 attacks. It was a deterrent. On the 8th of May, Jelica Boro was killed

25 and it says in the conversation that Mirko Krajisnik wanted to express his

1 condolences. Mr. Miletic is a Croat. He was the commander of the

2 barracks. There was the JNA in the barracks, and I absolutely stand by my

3 statement. We opened fire on the suburbs of Sokolje and Brescevo [phoen]

4 and that was the only thing we did as a deterrent.

5 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by the suburbs?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said, Your Honour, that we

7 bordered on Sokolje so we targeted just those trenches that they have dug

8 and I already said on the 8th of May they already had trenches and

9 communicating trenches from which they targeted us. So we used infantry

10 weapons, whereas the barracks, according to the rules of military service,

11 until they -- there was probably an attack, an infantry attack, on the

12 barracks and Colonel Miletic knows this, and that's not contested.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is it -- were weapons used that were taken from

14 Faletici in this deterrent action?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That's quite a

16 different -- Faletici is quite a different part of town and you have to go

17 150 kilometres round about to reach Rajlovac, so that's impossible.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My question was whether you know whether these

19 were weapons from Faletici. You seem to indicate that on the basis of

20 logic, that you exclude for that possibility. Do you know where those

21 weapons came from?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the barracks had weapons which

23 it had at its disposal and I said when we took the rifle from the barracks

24 we didn't know what remained in the barracks so usually three-barreled

25 weapons were used, mortars, and cannons of 40-millimetre calibre because

1 that's what the army had in the Rajlovac barracks.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

3 MR. TIEGER:

4 Q. Mr. Krsman, this is a contemporaneous phone call by Mr. Smajic to

5 Gagovic begging to have this shelling stopped because hundreds of homes

6 have already been destroyed and people are huddled in their shelters

7 begging for help. Are you suggesting this didn't happen?

8 A. Well, in the conversation, it says that it was a synchronised

9 attack on the part of the Muslims and that Hadzici were attacked. Look at

10 it this way: This conversation was shown on the news bulletin and the

11 whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina heard this conversation. It was broadcast on

12 television. And Mr. Smajic worked in propaganda for the Muslim side. I

13 understand that. That's quite normal but it's also quite understandable

14 that the people from Sokolje who had an agreement with us until the 8th of

15 May, then it was quite understand that they were astounded how the

16 extremists had infiltrated their ranks and had provoked them. So the

17 army, of course, had to respond and this is just proof and evidence that

18 everything I've said so far I said correctly, that it was the truth. And

19 had this not happened, on their part, the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina would

20 never have started.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that it was a long answer. Do I have to

22 understand this to say that it did not happen, what Mr. Smajic said?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It happened but not with that scope

24 and not targeted features but just as response to their provocation. You

25 see, when the commander says that the -- they were targeted from Boljokov

1 and Brijesce by mortars, these are mobile mortars just to create panic and

2 legitimate --

3 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. You say it did happen, not on that

4 scale and it was provoked. Now, in the telephone conversation, it is said

5 that 250 out of 300 houses were destroyed in Sokolje. To what extent is

6 that true, to your knowledge?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's absolutely incorrect.

8 JUDGE ORIE: How do you know and what is then the correct level of

9 destruction, if there was any?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 90 per cent of the shells up to

11 40-millimetre calibre was in the first line of battle. Part of the shells

12 probably fall -- fell far of their target because the men were not trained

13 sufficiently. And the next day or the day after, when I took my

14 binoculars to have a look you couldn't notice anything at all. You

15 couldn't in the any destruction whatsoever. But it's quite normal that at

16 the beginning of the war, and 95 per cent of us didn't hear a cannon being

17 fired let alone see it, and Mr. Smajic himself says that he didn't leave

18 the television station for four days. How can he know what happened?

19 Whereas here it says he's -- he talks about all this destruction.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You said already that it was not true, so his source

21 of knowledge is implicitly disputed by you. You say there was no damage

22 at all, then, or since you said -- it's still not clear. He says 250

23 houses out of 300. Do you say none, 50, 100, 200? I do understand that

24 you consider this to be collateral damage rather than targeting but how

25 many houses were destroyed according to your knowledge, or if you don't

1 know, please tell us.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that not a single house was

3 destroyed. When you say destroyed house it means the house that has been

4 completely razed and that you can't live it in any more. Of course, some

5 were damaged by the shells but I've already said that.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes but I'm talking about so heavily damaged that

7 it's difficult or impossible to continue living there. None of them?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I guarantee that up until August,

9 not a single house was destroyed. That is to say, destroyed to that

10 extent that it couldn't be lived in.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

12 MR. TIEGER:

13 Q. Mr. Krsman, in your earlier testimony, you described Sokolje as an

14 area with more than 90 per cent women, children, elderly and students.

15 Now you're telling us that Sokolje was shelled in a way so that -- by

16 people who didn't even know precisely or even remotely where the shells

17 were going. Isn't it true, Mr. Krsman, that when you were responding to

18 the Judge's questions on Friday, about the evil that was done to the Serbs

19 by the Muslims, and the evil that was done to the Muslims by the Serbs,

20 that when you said at page 76 of the LiveNote, "I don't know how many

21 people were killed at shock lay," this is precisely the kind of thing you

22 were referring to, the massive disproportionate, undirected shelling of

23 the civilian area.

24 A. First of all I did not say that Sokolje was made up 90 per cent of

25 women and children. On the basis of the population census I said that

1 every family had quite considerable -- a quite considerable number of

2 children, more than us, that's point number 1. Point number 2 is this:

3 We never targeted civilian targets. Never. And I stand by that. I was

4 the commander of the company, and Sokolje was tied up with my unit. We

5 never targeted civilian targets, except in the case of where cannons or

6 mortars were next to a facility and feature then that is no longer

7 civilian, that is a legitimate military target then.

8 Q. You also asserted, if I understood you correctly, that no houses

9 were severely damaged. Let me turn your attention to tab 24, which is a

10 SRNA press release from 11 May 1992, with the thirds paragraph indicating

11 in the night of 9 May the Green Berets and HOS launched an attack on

12 Rajlovac barracks on which occasion they also burned down Sokolje.

13 So SRNA seems to think that Sokolje suffered some pretty

14 significant destruction, Mr. Krsman, only they want to blame it on the

15 Muslims. But as you've just told us, it was Serb forces which shelled

16 Sokolje.

17 A. I don't know what the journalist wanted to say but what I said is

18 very clear. Now, what he meant by saying that they burnt Sokolje, perhaps

19 he wanted to say that they initiated their attack on us. I don't know

20 what he wanted to say by that. You would have to ask him because I really

21 don't know.

22 Q. Unless the Court has any questions I'm going to move to a

23 different subject.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, at the same time, Mr. Tieger, how much time

25 would have you in mind, looking at the --

1 MR. TIEGER: 10 to 15 minutes, I think, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ten to 15 minutes?

3 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please move to your next subject and

5 finish before the next break. By the way, Mr. Tieger, I had some

6 difficulties in finding the minutes of the Council for National Security

7 under P65, 30. I do find it under P433 although with a different

8 translation. Translation is not exactly the same.

9 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, you're quite right and I read

10 from the wrong -- I read from the portion below it. It's P433.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you may have noticed that the translation

12 you're providing now is not exactly the same as the -- perhaps you review

13 that and see what is -- whether you'd like us to look at the first one

14 or --

15 MR. TIEGER: I will do precisely that, Your Honour, and if I may,

16 I won't finish without taxing the endurance of the interpreting staff. If

17 this is a convenient moment for the Court, before I move on to the last

18 subject, I would suggest we take a break since we are so close to that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Usually we sit for close to first session one

20 hour and a half.

21 MR. TIEGER: The court is right. We started late.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We started late at approximately 2.30 so therefore we

23 are now at 1 hour ten minutes.

24 MR. TIEGER: That's fine, thank you.

25 Q. Mr. Krsman, you testified in your examination-in-chief that during

1 the time you were living in Mr. Krajisnik's home in the late 80s, his

2 level of participation in the events in -- his political participation was

3 at the local level. You recall that testimony?

4 A. Yes. But I wasn't living in his house, as it says in the

5 translation. I was working.

6 Q. Yes, that's my mistake, and thank you for that clarification.

7 That is, of course, what you said during your examination-in-chief.

8 Now, thereafter, after Mr. Krajisnik assumed political

9 responsibilities at the republic level, Serbs from Rajlovac continued to

10 seek his guidance and direction and he continued to provide it, correct?

11 A. Only in the sphere of the tasks already started, as president of

12 the Socialist Alliance of the working people, with respect to the

13 utilities, the buses, things like that.

14 Q. You were aware he became involved in the establishment, the

15 discussions concerning the establishment of the Rajlovac municipality and

16 its splitting off from the Novi Grad municipality?

17 A. Yes, just like all of us. He was just one of us.

18 Q. Well, you wouldn't really place your significance in those

19 discussions at the same level as Mr. Krajisnik's would you?

20 A. Well, of course not.

21 Q. And, for example, tab 14, reflects a conversation between

22 Mr. Krajisnik and Dr. Koljevic in February 1992, in which Mr. Krajisnik

23 relates about halfway down through the first page, that he has a meeting

24 in Rajlovac in connection with this one municipality, and then on the last

25 page he continues that he thought of going down to tell you those peasants

1 of mine are waiting for me. People want to talk to me so I said that I

2 will come. And similarly in tab 15, we see a conversation between Mr.

3 Krajisnik and Dr. Karadzic and I believe that needs a number, Your Honour?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar?

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1135, Your Honours.

6 MR. TIEGER:

7 Q. In which Mr. Krajisnik tells Dr. Karadzic that -- well, as it says

8 he's not. "He's gone down to Reljevo. So down there, people, I'm right.

9 I have one. Big territory. They want to establish Rajlovac municipality

10 as it used to be, you know." Dr. Karadzic responds, "Uh-huh." Mr.

11 Krajisnik continues, "That's a big territory so then people want to sit

12 down with them. I stayed until late last night and I had to go to the

13 constitutional commission so I asked Milos to go. I can't." That Milos

14 Savic. So those are further reflections of the efforts by Mr. Krajisnik

15 in connection with the establishment of Rajlovac municipality. Correct?

16 MR. JOSSE: That simply isn't a question, Your Honour. Let me

17 correct that. It is a question but it's not a question that this witness

18 can sensibly or seriously answer. It's a device and not a very well

19 hidden one, in my respectful submission, to introduce this additional

20 evidence. It's simply not something Mr. Krsman can realistically deal

21 with.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger?

23 MR. TIEGER: May the witness remove his earphones, Your Honour?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you take your ear phones off, Mr. Krsman?

25 MR. TIEGER: First of all, Your Honour, no device, as Mr. Josse

1 refers to it, I think with a condemning intent, is necessary in this

2 situation. Such evidence would be appropriate based on the evidence

3 elicited by the defence. Beyond that, it's the Prosecution's contention

4 precisely as put to the witness, and the witness is in a position to

5 affirm or contradict it, since he was present at the time, involved in

6 these efforts to the extent he described it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, it's a bit difficult for a witness

8 to know what was said in a telephone conversation. But Mr. Tieger, I

9 think it would -- you could confront the witness with the existence of a

10 telephone conversation between, as it appears, Mr. Krajisnik and

11 Mr. Karadzic, on which they discuss that Milos Savic would go to Reljevo

12 in relation to the establishment of Rajlovac municipality, whether the

13 witness is aware that Mr. Savic went there. I mean these are facts. But

14 we can't ask the witness, apart from whether this could be a document

15 which could be admitted as a contextual document, I mean that would be

16 something to be considered if you would ask for that, but I think it's not

17 a right way of doing if the witness isn't aware of such a telephone

18 conversation to ask him whether this is an example of involvement of

19 Mr. Krajisnik in the local level. I think we should stick to, then,

20 specific facts rather than referring to telephone conversation the witness

21 is not aware of.

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I mean we are refining, it seems to me,

23 our methods of presentation and introduction of evidence. I just want to

24 make it completely clear that the introduction of an intercept of this

25 nature in response to the evidence elicited by the Defence is completely

1 appropriate and precisely the kind of document which the Court should

2 have. If there are ways in which the Court prefer that be presented of

3 course I'm -- I want to respond to that but I don't think there is any

4 question that this is the kind of information that the Court should have.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think I gave you some guidance on what you could

6 ask the witness perhaps in relation to this document, since it appeared to

7 us that there were -- especially at the beginning of this document, seemed

8 to have relevance to you. The Chamber has no preference in that respect.

9 The Chamber will decide on any objection raised by Mr. Josse. He raised

10 an objection. I give you guidance to deal with that. If you think that

11 it's important for the Chamber to have this document available, then I

12 leave it to your inventivity on how to present it and then we'll hear from

13 Mr. Josse whether that's a correct way of presenting it, yes or no. He at

14 least objected to the way you introduced it now and I gave you the

15 guidance on how deal with it. Please proceed.

16 MR. TIEGER:

17 Q. Mr. Krsman, prior to the establishment of the Rajlovac

18 municipality, did the political authorities, Serbian political authorities

19 in Rajlovac, express an interest in meeting with Dr. Karadzic in

20 connection with the establishment or the proposed establishment of that

21 municipality?

22 A. We didn't need Dr. Karadzic or anybody else for that matter. We

23 as a people proceeded according to the constitution and our rights under

24 it. Why would we need Dr. Karadzic? He wasn't an inhabitant of ours, nor

25 had I ever met him or seen him in my life.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, could you please answer the question?

2 The question was whether the authorities expressed an interest in meeting

3 with Dr. Karadzic. Just tell us whether they expressed such an interest,

4 yes or no. Sometime people do express an interest in something they do

5 not need. Sometimes people do not express any interest in matters they

6 might need. So the logic and the explanations, please tell us whether

7 ever such an expression of interest -- whether the Serbian political

8 authorities in Rajlovac expressed an interest in meeting with

9 Dr. Karadzic.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, no. Did not.

11 MR. TIEGER:

12 Q. Okay. But I take it that you're not disputing that others apart

13 from you or apart from those people to whom you may have spoken about this

14 matter expressed such an interest in meeting with Dr. Karadzic, conveyed

15 through Mr. Krajisnik?

16 A. Well, please believe me when I say I don't know. If I knew, I

17 would tell you.

18 Q. Now, after the establishment of the Rajlovac municipality and

19 after the outbreak of the conflict, it is correct, isn't it, that

20 Mr. Krajisnik continued to have a significant role in events in the

21 Rajlovac municipality? Or don't you know?

22 A. Not that he had but he didn't have any role. He had his state

23 affairs to attend to, not to deal with Rajlovac. We took it upon

24 ourselves to solve all the problems that cropped up after the war started.

25 Q. Let's take a look, then, at tab 18, please. You've looked at tab

1 18 before. These are the remarks by -- I'm sorry we didn't. My mistake.

2 These are the remarks by Mr. Trifko Radic whom we have discussed before,

3 this time, at the RS assembly held in Bijeljina on 14 and 15 September

4 1992.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger it appears as with a number on the list.

6 This verbatim record of the 20th session of the Republika Srpska assembly.

7 MR. TIEGER: Then I'll take a number, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would have to look at my other list, compare

9 the list -- Mr. Registrar?

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1136, Your Honours.

11 MR. TIEGER:

12 Q. Mr. Krsman, if you'll take a look at your page 48, and go down to

13 the last two sentences of that first paragraph, which end in a long

14 ellipsis or "..." Where Mr. Radic says, "The Ustasha attack us on all

15 fronts every day, we have no help. I went to see Mr. Krajisnik and

16 General Mladic and if they hadn't come, we would have fallen a long time

17 ago. If Ilijas falls, so will Rajlovac, Vogosca, and others."

18 I'm sorry, Your Honour, in English that's at page 46?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Bottom of 46.

20 MR. TIEGER:

21 Q. That, Mr. Krsman, is a reflection of Mr. Krajisnik's role when

22 major issues concerning Rajlovac and the surrounding areas were at stake,

23 such as the need for military help in the face of an enemy attack,

24 correct?

25 A. That is not correct. You asked me about Rajlovac. Ilijas is 30

1 kilometres away from Rajlovac. I don't know whether Mr. Krajisnik went to

2 Rajlovac. You'll have to ask him. And as for Ilijas -- sorry, Rajlovac,

3 he didn't come to Rajlovac. I told you when he was in Rajlovac last. We

4 did not expect him to help us at all.

5 Q. Well, that seems strikes as a potentially fine distinction but

6 because you made it let's look at Rajlovac specifically and in that

7 connection I would like you to turn to tab 9.

8 Tab 9, which needs a number, Your Honour?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1137, Your Honours.

11 MR. TIEGER:

12 Q. Is a 12 December 1992 strictly confidential report from the

13 Sarajevo Romanija Corps command to the Main Staff of the army of Republika

14 Srpska. And at item number 5 it reports an unusual incident related to

15 problems with the Rajlovac command, commander, and Chief of Staff, and so

16 on. Talks about the measures that would be needed to resolve and settle

17 the situation, including the establishment of authorities that will

18 cooperate with the command staff and work on achieving the goals of the

19 Serbian people's war. And in that connection, the command of the Sarajevo

20 Romanija Corps request an urgent meeting with Trifko Radic, whom we've

21 talked about before, the president of Rajlovac and Vogosca and President

22 Krajisnik. And that, sir, is a reflection of the importance of Mr.

23 Krajisnik's role related to Rajlovac as a political figure to whom both

24 military and political officials turned in such circumstances?

25 MR. JOSSE: I repeat the objection I made earlier. It's exactly

1 the same point.

2 JUDGE ORIE: At least the time frame should be clear. We are now

3 talking about December 1992, from what I understand.

4 What -- you could ask the witness whether he knows anything about

5 any involvement at that point in time of Mr. Krajisnik.

6 MR. TIEGER:

7 Q. Mr. Krsman, were you aware of the fact that officials at this

8 level turned to Mr. Krajisnik under these circumstances?

9 A. The date is 12 December 1992. On the 9 December 1992, the Muslim

10 formations launched an offensive against Zuc. Our line fell in the depth

11 up to five kilometres, and that is why this is entitled, unusual incident

12 and this is all I know about this date. The command asked for a new line

13 to be set up since we had lost some of the territory, they wanted us to --

14 and I don't know anything else about it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The question was not whether what happened exactly on

16 the front line at that moment but the question was about people at a

17 certain level calling for the intervention and if you would say under

18 those circumstances, it's understandable or I'm not aware of it, fine, but

19 are you aware of in relation to that moment and perhaps the events that

20 took place at that time, of any call for Mr. Krajisnik to intervene or

21 to -- well, to get involved?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything. I only know

23 what I've just told you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 Mr. Tieger, ten minutes, you said before. That's far beyond that.

1 MR. TIEGER: I'm not a very good estimator sometimes, Your Honour.

2 I apologise for that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, we gave you already quite some more.

4 Therefore, I said whether you would like -- I invited you to finish by the

5 next break and it's time for the next break now so --

6 MR. TIEGER: One last question, then, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: One last question, Mr. Tieger.

8 MR. TIEGER:

9 Q. Mr. Krsman, you simply don't know about the level of contact

10 between people reflected in this order and Mr. Krajisnik, isn't that

11 right, during the course of 1992? You just don't know that.

12 A. I don't know. And I was not supposed to know anything about that.

13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

15 Mr. Josse I take it after the break you would like to re-examine

16 the witness?

17 MR. JOSSE: I do have some questions, yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll have a break until 4.30.

19 --- Recess taken at 4.06 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.36 p.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.

22 Re-examination by Mr. Josse:

23 Q. I'd like to begin my re-examination, Mr. Krsman, with the very

24 last question that you were asked by my learned friend, Mr. Tieger. He

25 asked you we put to you that you don't know the level of contact between

1 people reflected in the document that he had just presented and Mr.

2 Krajisnik, and you said, "I don't know and I was not supposed to know

3 anything about that." What did you mean when you said, "And I was not

4 supposed to know anything about that"?

5 A. When the war started we all had our own tasks. I had my own tasks

6 which was to defend the line and I dedicated my time to that task. Those

7 who were in the rear tended to their tasks, what I meant was that I was

8 not supposed to have any contacts or do anything else that did not concern

9 my task, which was to defend the line.

10 Q. Have a look, please, at the document that you were referred to at

11 tab 9. Are you able to assist the Chamber as to whether Mr. Krajisnik did

12 in fact attend the meeting that commander Galic was referring to?

13 A. Believe me, I really don't know.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, your question suggests that the meeting

15 took place. It's not --

16 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour --

17 JUDGE ORIE: In my mind, any more.

18 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour would be wrong to come to that conclusion.

19 First of all, because I'm -- because I'm not -- I'm unable to lead, I

20 couldn't put anything to the witness even if I wanted to.

21 JUDGE ORIE: No but nevertheless you are you able to assist the

22 Chamber as too whether Mr. Krajisnik did in fact attend the meeting.

23 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, referring to in the future could be the meeting

25 or a meeting.

1 MR. JOSSE: I should have said any meeting. It certainly was not

2 my intention to suggest that such a meeting took place.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore I just seek clarification. Please proceed.

4 MR. JOSSE:

5 Q. You were asked the following question earlier today: When you

6 wouldn't really place your significance in those discussions at the same

7 level as Mr. Krajisnik's, would you? And you said, well, of course, not.

8 And the discussions that were you being asked about were those relating to

9 the establishment of the Rajlovac municipality and its splitting off from

10 Novi Grad. What was your significance in those discussions, please,

11 Mr. Krsman?

12 A. First of all, Mr. Krajisnik is older than me. Second of all, I

13 was the president of the association of youth and I attended those

14 meetings as anybody else. When Mr. Krajisnik took up another duty he was

15 replaced by somebody else. And within that context I said that I was not

16 on par with Mr. Krajisnik. Otherwise, we had the same right to propose

17 things, to elect people, to adopt decisions and conclusions. In that

18 respect we were on an equal footing.

19 Q. You were also asked earlier today at the end of a long question,

20 about the -- and I quote, "The massive, disproportionate, undirected

21 shelling of the civilian area." Referring to the matters raised in the

22 long intercept that we heard, what do you say to the allegation that you

23 were involved in, I quote again, "Massive, disproportionate, undirected

24 shelling of the civilian area"?

25 A. This fire was controlled by one part of the JNA that had remained

1 in the barracks. The fire was calibre from 20 to 40 millimetre and we

2 only had light weapons and we were not in a position to inflict any

3 alleged damages on the facilities. As for what happened next, I said when

4 the army had -- once had been established, then we assumed all the

5 responsibility.

6 Q. So far as the long intercept is concerned, do you accept what

7 Mr. Smajic was saying to Mr. Gagovic? In other words, was his account of

8 matters in accordance with your recollection as to what actually happened?

9 A. The only thing that is correct is when he said that they had

10 provoked and for two shells we responded inappropriately. It was not two

11 shells that were fired. Next to my house, there are still to this day

12 some 50 holes done by mortar shells, one of them killing my neighbour.

13 Between 200 and 300 shells fell on that village and the shelling continued

14 until the moment that this conversation was recorded.

15 Q. Earlier today, you --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, just to avoid whatever confusion, that

17 village is, you say? Between 200 and 300 shells fell on that village.

18 What village were you exactly referring to?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My village, around my house. My

20 house was closest to the separation line, and some 50 shells fell close to

21 it, and in depth of the territory towards Zabrdje some 200 shells fell on

22 that evening, on the 8th of May.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Please proceed.

24 MR. JOSSE:

25 Q. In an answer you gave earlier, in relation to this intercept, you

1 said, "This conversation was shown on the news bulletin and the whole of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina heard this conversation. It was broadcast on

3 television. And Mr. Smajic worked in propaganda for the Muslim side. I

4 understand that." Firstly are you saying that this precise intercept was

5 on television?

6 A. Mr. Smajic was the editor of a daily, the title of which was YUTEL

7 as an acronym of something that starts with U [as interpreted] for

8 Yugoslavia. Similar conversation, maybe not this one, but similar

9 conversations did take place at first but later on they sided with the

10 Muslim side because Mr. Smajic was a Muslim and another person called

11 Gordan Milic was on the same team.

12 Q. Take this slowly, please, Mr. Krsman. When you talk about him

13 working in propaganda and this being propaganda, explain exactly what you

14 mean about this conversation being propaganda. Slowly.

15 A. First of all you have to know that all Serbs had abandoned the

16 broadcasting house. Mr. Smajic here belittles the intervention of

17 Muslims. He starts to portray their provocations and shelling as being to

18 a lesser extent than it was. But in the forefront is non-selective

19 shelling of non-military targets. This is his first lie. And he himself

20 said that he had friends in the barracks and they would have known who had

21 shelled them and I'm sure that somebody else would have called in addition

22 to him. But what I'm saying is that he was part of the propaganda and

23 that he tried to exaggerate incidents even when -- where those incidents

24 did not take place at all.

25 Q. And by exaggerating incidents or indeed describing incidents that

1 did not take place at all, in a conversation with a gentleman like

2 Mr. Gagovic, what, as you understand it, would be his purpose? What would

3 he -- what would he be trying to achieve in terms of propaganda benefit?

4 A. I don't know what his goal was. Rajlovac is over 7 or 8

5 kilometres away from the television, and the colonel said that the shells

6 had a range of 3.000 metres. There was so much propaganda that one could

7 no longer tolerate it. Everything was blamed on Serbs, and Serbs were not

8 to be blamed for anything. And I believe that this was the only reason

9 that he had in mind.

10 MR. JOSSE: I have nothing else, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Tieger?

12 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour, no questions, thank you.

13 Your Honour, I am -- there was one lingering matter from Friday

14 that wasn't addressed and that was the issue of the letters that didn't --

15 it was actually the first exhibit or first tab to which I turned the

16 witness's attention during my examination. Those were the three letters,

17 one of which didn't correspond with the English translation.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the companies. The companies becoming four,

19 yes.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Under P1131 and 1132 and P1133.

21 MR. TIEGER: So the incorrect -- well, there was a correct

22 translation but an incorrect original. In any event.

23 JUDGE ORIE: At least they did not match.

24 MR. TIEGER: That's exactly right. Here are the complete sets. I

25 don't know how the Court wishes to handle it but we could certainly give

1 them --

2 JUDGE ORIE: What I would like to do -- I take it that the witness

3 only saw the B/C/S ones. Isn't it?

4 MR. JOSSE: I'm not sure he had all three of them from

5 recollection.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think 1 and 3 were shown to him and he

7 nevertheless -- he said something about the second one. He mentioned the

8 name of the second company. So therefore I would suggest that we'll

9 proceed as far as admission is concerned on the basis of the three we had

10 in front of us, that was Vemex, that was --

11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if it assists Mr. Josse in particular,

12 and perhaps the Court, the -- I read the -- I think almost all of the

13 Vemex letter which was the problem letter. I think the witness heard that

14 translation but in the course of reviewing the documents in the tab also

15 saw the other letters. So if he commented I actually don't recall

16 specifically at this moment. On Vemex, that was no doubt in response to

17 the translation that was provided from the English, that indeed

18 corresponds to the letter we now have in B/C/S.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse?

20 MR. JOSSE: I'm content with the situation --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MR. JOSSE: -- if Your Honour is.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll check it again on the transcript but I'm

24 for the time being I'm happy with the situation as well.

25 Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

1 I would have a few questions for the witness.

2 Questioned by the Court:

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, did you ever learn about events that

4 happened in a village Ahatovici? And I'm specifically asking about what

5 happened to the Muslims living there.

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you briefly tell us about it?

8 A. All I know is what I heard from other people. That was a village

9 where Muslims constituted a relative majority. It was close to the Butile

10 barracks, which is a remote barracks in Dobrosevici, and I know that there

11 was an ultimatum and that some fighting ensued. Following the ultimatum

12 some of them were killed, the others were captured. Later on they were

13 exchanged, and this is all I know about this incident. This was at the

14 far end on the opposite side to my zone of responsibility.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And if you say "ultimatum," what do you mean by

16 that, ultimatum to do what or not to do what?

17 A. As far as I can remember, the ultimatum was to free a passage for

18 them to go to Sarajevo, around the clock. And I believe that the command

19 could not grant that. And then they attacked the Butile barracks.

20 Fighting ensued. There were casualties on both sides. And what happened

21 next was the way I described it in my previous answer.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From whom did you hear that?

23 A. I heard that on the line, as people were coming back, there were a

24 lot of refugees from that area, some of whom ended up on my line of

25 defence and I heard it from them.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said some of them were captured. Do you

2 know anything about the circumstances under which they were held in

3 detention?

4 A. I only know that they were kept between 3 and 7 days. Somewhere

5 either in the barracks or somewhere else. And those were only men. And

6 after seven days, they were either exchanged or taken to be exchanged.

7 This is as much as I know.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ever learn about an incident where

9 detained people that were detained in Rajlovac died in a bus when leaving

10 Rajlovac?

11 A. I heard of that incident, which took place somewhere around Srenje

12 some 30 or 40 kilometres away from Rajlovac. According to the story that

13 I heard, the bus was intercepted by Muslim formations because they thought

14 that the bus was full of our soldiers. There were some casualties, both

15 Serbs and Muslims, but I don't know whether this is all true because where

16 this happened was no man's land. It was not controlled either by the

17 Muslims or by the Serbs or Croats.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Finally, last question: Your line was I would

19 say on the slopes of Zuc hill. Is that -- or would you not consider that

20 Zuc hill?

21 A. The line was in the zone of responsibility after the Rajlovac

22 Brigade and this line was manned by the locals of Zuc. Out of 358, while

23 they were manning it, when Zuc fell on the 9th of September, that line

24 disappeared and these people were deployed and they were assigned to other

25 platoons.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, this Chamber has received some evidence on

2 Muslims being taken to Zuc to perform work obligations where some of them

3 were injured, some of them died. Do you know anything about that?

4 A. In my area of responsibility, nobody came, no other people came

5 except for the people who were there. As for Zuc I really can't say. I

6 don't know. If they were, then each person must be held responsible for

7 their actions during the war.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers. Any questions arising

9 from questions from the Bench?

10 If not, Mr. Krsman, this completes your testimony in this Court.

11 You've answered the questions put to you by both parties and by the Bench.

12 I'd like to thank you for coming the far distance to The Hague and I wish

13 you a safe trip home again.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Krsman out

16 of the courtroom.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first say the following to the parties. I

19 think I used in response to an objection raised by you, Mr. Josse, the

20 word "to confront the witness with" I think twice, where I -- that's

21 perhaps my lack of knowledge of the English language, where I intended to

22 use a softer language, and I should have preferred finally to say "to put

23 that to a witness." The difference in my language were where the word

24 confront also exists is a bit smaller. Where the verb to confront may

25 have been misunderstood, it was not directly related to the witness but it

1 was I think when I gave guidance to you, Mr. Tieger, I intended to say to

2 put something to a witness rather than to confront the witness with.

3 MR. JOSSE: Thank you for that, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could we deal with the exhibits right

5 away?

6 MR. JOSSE: I would be happy to do that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 Mr. Usher, we have the exhibits. I think new ones go -- range

9 from P1131 up to and including P1137. Any objections, Mr. Josse?

10 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from -- yes?

12 MR. JOSSE: Could I ask about the position with 1135? And I

13 appreciate that this may have happened in the case before but some

14 clarification even now perhaps wouldn't go amiss. Leave aside the -- that

15 is the intercept between my client and Radovan Karadzic in February of

16 1992. Leave aside for one moment, if the Court would be so kind, my

17 objection as to the nature of the questioning and the way that it was

18 done.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. JOSSE: Only the first two remarks of my client were

21 introduced in evidence. What we need to know is whether those are the

22 only two remarks that are going to be read by the Chamber in relation to

23 this document. I know this is an old chestnut nut, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Certainly we did not find time to read the remainder.

25 MR. JOSSE: I'm sure that's right.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, to what extent is the remainder of that

2 telephone conversation relevant or did you just present it in order to not

3 deprive us from the context in which it was said?

4 MR. TIEGER: Well, I would urge -- I would argue that -- first of

5 all let me step back. I accept that there are circumstances in which

6 directing a witness's attention to only a portion of the document may mean

7 for a variety of reasons that the remainder of the document should not be

8 admitted. I don't need to describe to the Court examples we've had of

9 that. I don't think an intercepted telephone conversation of this length

10 falls into that category. Now, the extent of -- the weight to be given

11 the remainder of that conversation depends, has always, on a variety of

12 circumstances, and in particular, the totality of the evidence that might

13 otherwise relate to it, but this is a conversation that I think should be

14 admitted in its entirety both to understand the nature of the comments and

15 context of the comments related to Rajlovac, and indeed for other such

16 purposes as it may usefully serve, given the totality of the evidence.

17 Clearly, that portion which is focused at the time of its introduction

18 presumably has its own independent added weight for that reason. But I

19 submit that the remainder of the conversation also has evidential value

20 which should not be kept from the Court.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then perhaps not introduced through there

22 witness. That's, I take it, the issue, Mr. Josse.

23 MR. JOSSE: That's the second issue.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's the second issue.

25 MR. JOSSE: An issue with respect I was going to raise in any

1 event. Perhaps dealing with the second issue, I invite the Court to

2 consider carefully what Mr. Tieger said at the bottom of page 31 of

3 today's LiveNote where, in effect, in my submission, he conceded the very

4 point of my objection, namely, and I'll put it in a rather contentious

5 way, I accept, by using the word "device," but he accepted that it was a

6 way of presenting and introducing evidence. And the Court -- as

7 Your Honour observed to him in the course of argument, in effect needs to

8 grapple with that method of presentation that the Prosecution are

9 adopting. And bearing in mind Mr. Tieger's concession, we submit at page

10 31, it would be wrong now to admit this intercept into evidence. So

11 that's the second point.

12 The first point is whether the rest of the document should go in

13 in any event. And our fall back position is that if the Court is against

14 the Defence and that it should be admitted, it should only be admitted in

15 part and those first ten lines or so which end with Mr. Krajisnik saying

16 the words, "Milos Savic" should be admitted and no more than that. I hope

17 I make the Defence position clear.

18 JUDGE ORIE: The position is quite clear. Of course, one of

19 the -- I've not read the whole of it yet. I take it my colleagues

20 neither. There, of course, is always the risk of whether we start reading

21 it if we don't have to read it, if they are talking about the weather for

22 the remainder of the telephone conversation which, of course, I do not

23 expect because they had other things to discuss at that time I take it,

24 then, of course, the parties could agree upon it. If, however, the

25 importance because -- Mr. Tieger, you were rather vague on should not be

1 kept from the Court but I've got no idea if I would ask you now to

2 summarise the remainder of it I wonder whether you would be in a position

3 to do that right away, whether you could.

4 MR. TIEGER: I might be cheating, Your Honour, since it's in front

5 of me. Let me point out, however, I'm not aware of intending to make any

6 concession. I just looked at my remarks. I don't think I inadvertently

7 made a concession along the lines the Defence suggest so I would prefer at

8 least there is no implicit acknowledgement that that was done on the

9 record.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it be possible that the parties for the

11 remainder of the text -- of course, we still have to consider about the

12 first I would say ten to 15 lines, if the remainder, of which Mr. Tieger

13 says it should not be kept from us, is not that important, he could

14 consider whether it would be really so dramatic to keep that away from us.

15 At the same time, Mr. Josse, you're invited the remainder of the -- of the

16 telephone conversation would not do any damage whatsoever to your case, to

17 see whether you could resolve the matter between yourselves. If not we

18 will read it.

19 MR. JOSSE: Could Your Honour give me one moment?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 [Defence counsel confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes?

23 MR. JOSSE: Could I mention one other matter?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MR. JOSSE: The reason in relation to this -- the reason that the

1 matter is a sensitive one to me personally, and I suspect my client as

2 well, is I've been tasked with trying to deal with intercepts in

3 preparation for his evidence, and there are a vast number of intercepts.

4 A significant number involve him. We are trying to go through all of

5 those. And one of the things we have to grapple with and to some extent

6 the Court will have to grapple with, is how many of those Mr. Krajisnik

7 realistically needs to deal with personally because if a matter has been

8 introduced into evidence, it's a matter that we will stand upon at a later

9 stage. But I flag it up now, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand, Mr. Josse. At the same time I'm

11 quite frank to you: I've got no idea what the remainder of the

12 conversation is about. If finally we would have to decide and by reading

13 it we have to establish that that's just about the weather, then I wonder

14 why it was so important not to keep away the weather from us and what --

15 how it would be so important for the Defence to -- not to be informed

16 about the matter. You understand what I mean? I'm just trying to see

17 whether there is --

18 MR. JOSSE: I do but, of course, as Your Honour observed, that

19 point cuts both ways --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course.

21 MR. JOSSE: -- between both the parties.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

23 MR. TIEGER: I fully accept the Court's suggestion. I will be

24 more than happy to undertake the initial steps and that will presumably

25 prevent or obviate any need for Mr. Josse to undertake any further efforts

1 until he hears from me. So I think we have an excellent chance of

2 resolving this without the Court's intervention.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That's great. Otherwise we will give a decision on

4 the matter. Apart, of course, the lines that remain are still to be dealt

5 with.

6 MR. JOSSE: Well, I made my submission about those. I have

7 nothing else. I have no objection to any of the other exhibits.

8 JUDGE ORIE: None of the others, so then apart from P1135, the

9 exhibits are admitted into evidence. Then Defence Exhibits, Mr. Tieger,

10 they range from D153 up to and including D156. Any objection?

11 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then they are admitted into evidence.

13 I have a few more procedural issues still on our list which we

14 could deal with very rapidly, I take it.

15 Yes. First of all, the Nielsen exhibits, the footnote material.

16 The Chamber would like to address the parties regarding the Nielsen source

17 material. On the 8th of March, and I'm referring to pages 20902 to 20903,

18 the Chamber requested that the Prosecution determine the availability of

19 parts of the Nielsen's reports source material making reference to three

20 groups of documents. On the 14th of March, and I refer to transcript

21 pages 21266 to 270, the Prosecution informed the Chamber of the

22 availability of the requested material. In light of the Chamber's remarks

23 to the party regarding this material on the 15th of March, transcript

24 pages 21453 to 21454, and the subsequent Defence request for clarification

25 filed on the 17th of March, the Chamber would now like to revisit the

1 matter.

2 Notwithstanding the rather -- and now I think I use the word as it

3 is meant -- the rather confrontational tone of the Defence request for

4 clarification, a request which could easily have been made by the Defence

5 at the time the Chamber gave its decision. The Chamber would like to

6 resolve this matter quickly and proceed along a more traditional course in

7 dealing with the Nielsen source material.

8 The Chamber would like to remind the parties of the guidance it

9 offered on the procedure for examining expert witnesses on the 5th of May

10 2005, set forth beginning on transcript page 13085. The Chamber informed

11 the parties under point 5 of its guidance that, "All remaining

12 documentation underlying the experts report will not be admitted into

13 evidence unless one of the parties showing good cause in light of the

14 above or the Chamber itself specifically requests so." The Chamber has

15 reserved the discretion to request documentation underlying an expert

16 report, thus allowing it to verify facts underlying the conclusion made by

17 experts.

18 The Chamber hereby orders the Prosecution to submit for admission

19 into evidence the group of documents cited in the Nielsen report which,

20 according to the Republika Srpska MUP draft annual report for 1992, were

21 received by the Presidency. The Defence is given two weeks from the date

22 of submission of these documents to raise any objections. The Chamber

23 requests the Prosecution to submit their documents in court at an

24 appropriate moment at which time they will be assigned provisional exhibit

25 numbers.

1 The Chamber is not requesting at this time submission of the group

2 of documents which were purportedly received by the Prime Minister or the

3 group of issues of the bulletin daily events. The Chamber will inform the

4 Prosecution if it later wishes to request the submission of these

5 documents.

6 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

7 Next point, I don't know who to address, Mr. Tieger, Mr. Harmon,

8 the Chamber received a request for protective measures for a witness who

9 will testify soon. If there is any need to respond to this request we

10 would like to hear your response no later than Thursday but if you can

11 give an oral response now, but if you would need to go into private

12 session, then please tell us.

13 MR. HARMON: I've notified the Defence, Your Honour, that we

14 intend to respond in writing and we will do so by Thursday.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much. Then, Mr. Josse, any

16 objections to the Lakic exhibits which were to be lodged by today.

17 MR. JOSSE: Yes, Your Honour, I've been discussing that and

18 corresponding by e-mail with Mr. Margetts. My concern, Your Honour, is in

19 relation to P1112. This was the -- described as an extract from Radovan

20 Karadzic's diary. At the time, the Chamber, following a request from me,

21 this is my recollection, at least, were given a brief history of how the

22 Office of the Prosecutor came by this particular document, and as such, we

23 have no difficulty with that. The difficulty lies, as to whether it can

24 be attributed to Mr. Karadzic and whether it in fact is his diary. Now,

25 my vague recollection is - excuse me for not having checked this

1 specifically - was that the witness accepted what was put to him as to

2 what was contained within the diary, and that was Mr. Margetts's

3 recollection when I discussed the matter with him earlier today. So there

4 is no problem as such with that extract being admitted into evidence but

5 at this stage, the Defence would ask the Chamber and indeed the

6 Prosecution not to jump to the conclusion that it is in fact Karadzic's

7 diary. It's accepted that the Prosecution say that it was seized from

8 Mrs. Karadzic's home in the course of the spring of last year, just May of

9 last year, when it was raided by NATO troops.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. JOSSE: But beyond that at this stage, we would invite the

12 Chamber to go no further.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'd say you do not oppose admission to

14 evidence the witness has testified about it but not to take it for granted

15 that by the place where it was found and by the testimony of this witness,

16 that would also justify the conclusion that it was Mr. Karadzic's

17 handwriting?

18 MR. HARMON: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Is that briefly --

20 MR. JOSSE: That is our submission. I should add in fairness to

21 the Prosecution, they served it upon us about three weeks ago so we have

22 had a chance to consider it. Mr. Krajisnik in particular has had a chance

23 to scrutinise it. But in effect, putting it another way, an old common

24 law way we would put the Prosecution to proof of the fact that it was

25 written by Karadzic, if that be their assertion.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger?

2 MR. TIEGER: Well, I had a response before I was challenged to

3 consider it in the classical common law way but what I wanted to say

4 before that is given my understanding of the status of the discussions

5 between Mr. Margetts and Josse, it seems to me that's a fair reservation

6 on the part of the Defence. For the time being the document comes in as a

7 document that was seized in a manner he described and from the place he

8 described and the discussions continue, if necessary, on the remaining

9 point that he raised. If there comes a point at which that issue needs to

10 be resoled by the Court then I think we can bra it to the attention of the

11 court at that time. Meanwhile the status remains as described.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, it seems that that's a fair reflection of

13 the present situation.

14 MR. JOSSE: We are agreed, up until this point.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, anything else on the Lakic exhibits?

16 MR. JOSSE: No.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then they range from P1109 up to and including P1117,

18 and are admitted into evidence as far as Defence exhibits are concerned,

19 Mr. Tieger, I don't know whether you can respond or whether we need

20 Mr. Margetts for it. It would go from D146 up to and including D149. If

21 you'd say I'll consult with Mr. Margetts we'll hear, then we'll give you

22 another day.

23 MR. TIEGER: We would appreciate that opportunity, Your Honour,

24 thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No decision has been taken on the Defence exhibits.

1 Finally, yes, we have the issue of what I would call the Hotic

2 documents. The Prosecution on the 24th of March were ready to tender

3 these documents but that the Defence would have to look at it first.

4 According to what I understand has been presented as a kind of an informal

5 deadline, the 28th of March was set.

6 MR. JOSSE: Well, I had a chance to review these with the

7 translations, and whilst as the Chamber is an I wear, the Defence has

8 serious reservations about the procedure that the Chamber has adopted, in

9 this case, we do not oppose the admission of these documents. Could I

10 repeat, I may have said on a previous occasion, we are trying as best we

11 can to make our own inquiries in relation to this matter. However, it

12 is -- the authenticity of the documents isn't seriously in dispute. Those

13 that have been translated can, as far as we are concerned, go before the

14 Court. I was provided with a helpful introductory note by Mr. Harmon. I

15 would invite that that does not, however, go to the Chamber.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let them do their own work, Mr. Josse.

17 MR. JOSSE: Well --

18 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. I'm not -- of course, I do not know the

19 content of it. It was helpful for you, whether it would be helpful for us

20 or not, we have our own --

21 MR. JOSSE: I rather walked into that.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Mr. Harmon, may I then take it that

23 you'll tender the documents one of these days without the --

24 MR. HARMON: Your Honour we can tender them today.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Today?

1 MR. HARMON: Just for the record, Your Honour, the complete Hotic

2 file I have in my possession. I have had translated probably 98 per cent

3 of the documents. There are some documents that obviously had no bearing

4 or relevance whatsoever. I provided the Defence with a complete inventory

5 and all of the documents in B/C/S and all of the translated documents in

6 English, so counsel has had an opportunity to review all of the

7 translations. I provided counsel, as he has said, with a complete set of

8 English translations and I'm prepared to submit now the Hotic file, those

9 documents from that file that have been selected by me and that have been

10 translated.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I then take it, Mr. Josse, that if there are any

12 untranslated documents are therefore not tendered at this moment which the

13 Defence would consider to be relevant, that you'll ask for completion of

14 this material.

15 MR. JOSSE: Absolutely.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

17 Then --

18 MR. HARMON: Your Honour we can tender them right now, if you

19 wish.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if you could give it to Mr. Registrar and

21 then see how numbering will proceed, whether we do it in one number with

22 subnumbers or that depends a bit also on -- so I invite the Registrar not

23 to immediately assign a number to it.

24 MR. JOSSE: Could I just look at one of those bundles, please, for

25 a moment?

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. JOSSE: Yes. It does have the very note that I was -- that's

3 the very note that I was objecting to.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Hotic case, KT-460, 04.

5 MR. JOSSE: That's the very note I was objecting to.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Immediately, Mr. Harmon, I take it that this was not

7 a slip of the pen but a slip of the --

8 MR. HARMON: Copier.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Slip of your hand in --

10 MR. HARMON: That note is merely an inventory for counsel's use of

11 what documents he was provided with, Your Honour, so --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. We might make an inventory. If it's

13 just an inventory, Mr. Josse, and without any comment, then you might be

14 in a position to reconsider whether it's --

15 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I will consider the matter between now

16 and 7.00.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and we will not put them in the shredder yet.

18 Mr. Registrar is keeping a close eye on it.

19 MR. JOSSE: I assure the Court I will reread it between now and

20 the end of the day.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. And then perhaps also today,

22 Mr. Registrar will form an opinion and how best to number these exhibits.

23 There are no other procedural issues?

24 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Sladojovic informs me that he handed to Mr. Haider

25 four documents earlier today, all of which have already got numbers. They

1 comply with orders that the Chamber has previously made in relation to

2 Defence documents.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. JOSSE: I sincerely hope they have got to my learned friends,

5 the prosecutors.

6 JUDGE ORIE: At least they have clear numbers on it. Any other

7 matter?

8 MR. JOSSE: There is nothing else that I wish to raise,

9 Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that we have a break now so that with

11 your next witness you would have -- you could examine the next witness

12 without any interruptions.

13 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Stewart has the pleasure, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn until ten minutes to six.

15 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, are you ready to call your next witness?

18 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, it's Mrs. Svetlana Cenic, no

19 protective measures, of course.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mrs. Cenic.

23 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon to you, too.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Cenic, before you give evidence in this Court the

25 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require to you make a solemn declaration

1 that you'll speak the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and

2 I'd first of all like to ask you whether you want to make that solemn

3 declaration in your own language or in English, because I understand that

4 you are, as you just showed, you're fluent in English. I leave it up to

5 you which you prefer.

6 THE WITNESS: I will give the statement in my own language, in the

7 Serb language.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would -- Madam Usher, would you please give the

9 text of the solemn declaration to the witness.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, please be seated, Mrs. Cenic.

13 THE WITNESS: [In English] Thank you.

14 WITNESS: SVETLANA CENIC

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, so sorry, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I just wanted to tell Mrs. Cenic that she'll first be

18 examined by you, Mr. Stewart, counsel for the Defence. Yes.

19 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. I was just going to say,

20 Mrs. Cenic, as she did the solemn declaration she will be giving her

21 evidence in Serbian.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it entirely to her.

23 And I can imagine that you feel most at ease to use your own

24 language.

25 THE WITNESS: [In English] Yes, thank you.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

2 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Examination by Mr. Stewart:

4 Q. Mrs. Cenic to begin with, because I feel confident there won't be

5 any objection I'm going to put a number of facts to you and invite your

6 agreement so that we can get fairly quickly through areas which one

7 doesn't suppose are likely to be in contention.

8 The -- so I'll put it to you in chunks and you can tell the Court

9 if you agree or if there is anything you want to correct.

10 You were born on the 6th of December 1960 in Sarajevo, you

11 graduated from degree in economics in Sarajevo, you have at various times

12 worked in Belgrade and in England but you returned to Bosnia-Herzegovina

13 to work within the last few years, is that correct, and when did you go

14 back there last?

15 A. [Interpretation] I returned from England as somebody who had

16 worked for two English companies as their representative. However, very

17 soon all the investments stopped, the company that I worked for were

18 engaged in investment. I had to return to Sarajevo. I could not keep my

19 family in England and this was sometime in 1990 or 1991.

20 Q. So then in 1991, you were working in Sarajevo as an economic

21 consultant with some British companies. In April 1992, in circumstances

22 which we'll come back to, it's correct, that you were forced to move with

23 your family from Sarajevo, you arrived in Vogosca on the 15th of April

24 1992, you lived there until early July 1992, when you moved to Pale; is

25 that right so far?

1 A. Yes. With a correction. My parents left on the 4th of April,

2 hoping that they would return. They just went for a weekend to my

3 grandmother's place and I myself managed to reenter Sarajevo on several

4 occasions until the 15th of April, after which date it was impossible

5 either to enter Sarajevo or leave it if you were already there.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Cenic, I'm going to ask you to put your ear

7 phones on. I do understand that you do understand English. If -- they

8 will fall off again and again if you don't put -- the reason why I'm

9 asking you is that the interpreters might sooner or later have a problem

10 with your speed of speech. I noticed already that -- I take it then that

11 you -- yes, of course, if you're using the B/C/S channel it doesn't help

12 that much but if you want to listen to the questions in English, then, of

13 course, you will also -- or perhaps you could also listen to the live

14 channel which is channel 3, I think, because if you speak too quickly and

15 you may be familiar with the problem, then the interpreters might have

16 problems in following you. Please proceed.

17 MR. STEWART: That's helpful, Your Honour. We think channel 3

18 does the trick for this purpose. Let's try it anyway.

19 Q. Mrs. Cenic I'm just going through, if you like, your -- very

20 briefly your biography over the last few years and then we'll come back to

21 Pale but in the autumn of 1992, still in Pale, you started working in the

22 office of the vice-president -- I beg your pardon, of Dr. Nikola Koljevic

23 as his personal assistant?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you remained in his office and he became the vice-president,

1 didn't he, until August 1995?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. After that, you moved to Banja Luka where you worked as an

4 economic consultant until 2000 and then from December 2000 until October

5 2002, you were an adviser to the vice-president of Republika Srpska, is

6 that all correct so far?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then from October 2002 until February 2005, you were an

9 adviser to the president of the -- of Republika Srpska?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then until a change of government at the end of last month,

12 February 2006, you had been the Minister of Finance of the -- of Republika

13 Srpska?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you have just recently then -- following that change of

16 government, you have accepted a position as a -- the director or manager

17 of the European centre for peace and development, which is under the aegis

18 of the University of the United Nations?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it correct, Mrs. Cenic, you've never -- you are not now and you

21 never have been a member of the SDS?

22 A. Not only of the SDS. I have never been a member of any political

23 party in my whole life.

24 Q. Now, I ask you now, when did you first meet Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik,

25 whom you see in court here today?

1 A. In 1991. It may have been the summer of 1991.

2 Q. And were the circumstances that you were asked to do some

3 translation work in his office?

4 A. No. This was not in his office. This translation work had to be

5 done for some people who were then in the government of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the club of deputies of the SDS. I knew some

7 people who were already members of the SDS, either as executive members or

8 delegates who had already been appointed to the government, and that is

9 how I arrived at meeting Mr. Krajisnik as well.

10 Q. Did you at some point then end up in 1991 doing some translation

11 work in Mr. Krajisnik's office?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. For what sort of period?

14 A. This could have been the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please wait for the end of the

16 question?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this was in autumn 1991 and

18 winter 1992.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that even the live channel does not give

20 the remarks by the interpreters.

21 Since you do understand the question directly in English,

22 Mrs. Cenic, may I ask you to wait for a while before answering it so that

23 the interpreters can finish their interpretation first and then you

24 continue? Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

25 MR. STEWART:

1 Q. Before you found yourself in Mr. Krajisnik's office, did you have

2 any knowledge or familiarity with his political career or his politics?

3 A. No. Mr. Krajisnik was not a familiar figure to me, and not from

4 political life, no. I had heard of him as somebody who worked at the

5 Energo invest company. This company was famous and since I had contacts

6 with the world of business, I heard of him.

7 Q. Now, we know, and the Trial Chamber has heard evidence, that

8 through the whole period 1991, 1992, onwards, there were a number of

9 negotiations involving the international community in relation to the

10 former Yugoslavia. Did you at some point come to play a part in any of

11 those international negotiations?

12 A. Yes. I believe that the most important were the negotiations

13 regarding the famous Cutileiro's plan.

14 Q. And what was your part in such negotiations and meetings?

15 A. As the personal interpreter for Mr. Krajisnik.

16 Q. Did you attend any meetings attended by Lord Carrington?

17 A. I believe that there were one or two meetings.

18 Q. Do you recall attending -- in your capacity as interpreter -- any

19 meeting attended by Mr. Cyrus Vance?

20 A. Yes. In the building of BiH Presidency.

21 Q. And you did attend, you've already alluded to it, a meeting or

22 more than one meeting? Which was it, at which Mr. Cutileiro was present?

23 A. Those were negotiations that lasted for one whole day in the Kanak

24 [phoen] residence in Sarajevo.

25 Q. And that, and I think I can put this date to you, that was on the

1 18th of March 1992?

2 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, that was the date. That was the

3 date when the agreement was signed.

4 Q. What was -- was Dr. Karadzic present at all the meetings that you

5 attended at -- with Mr. Krajisnik?

6 A. At the meeting with Mr. Cutileiro, at that negotiation, he was

7 present. The meeting with Mr. Vance, I don't think that he attended.

8 Q. Perhaps I should make it clear when I asked was Dr. Karadzic

9 present at all the meeting you attended, I am talking of meetings in this

10 particular category of international negotiations. I didn't intend more

11 broadly than that.

12 The -- how would you describe Dr. Karadzic's role and

13 participation in such of those meetings as he attended?

14 A. He was the president of the Serbian Democratic Party, the head of

15 that party.

16 Q. Well, that was his official position. Could you perhaps describe

17 the way in which he participated in such meetings?

18 A. At the time, the leaders of the most important political parties

19 and also representatives of every constituent people, in other words

20 parties with the largest number of members, participated in those

21 negotiations, as well as the high officials representing each of the

22 peoples.

23 Q. Now, there were the people's concerned were the Bosnian Serbs, the

24 Bosnian Muslims, and Croats, correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And was there anybody, then, who took a clear lead in such

2 discussions on the part of the Bosnian Serbs?

3 A. Well, I couldn't speak of anybody who took the lead, because those

4 were negotiating teams.

5 Q. Did you attend -- well, the discussions with Mr. Cutileiro, he was

6 in the chair, wasn't he?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did they consist from time to time of discussions where all the

9 parties were round the table and then also interspersed with those

10 discussions at meetings between Mr. Cutileiro and the Bosnian Serbs

11 separately, then Muslims separately, Croats separately? Was that the

12 pattern?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And did you also then -- sorry I was too quick, then, I think

15 Mrs. Cenic?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask for some clarification, Mr. Stewart?

17 Could you tell us were these delegations, you're talking about one

18 day of negotiations or a whole day, is that a correct understanding?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us who were members of the delegations

21 of the different peoples, that is who were in the delegation of the

22 Bosnian Serbs, the Bosnian Muslims, and the Bosnian Croats, I take it?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the Bosnian Serbs are

24 concerned, the delegation was composed of Professor Nikola Koljevic, Dr.

25 Radovan Karadzic, and Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you answer the same question for the Bosnian

2 Muslims and the Croats.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The delegation of the Croatian

4 people, Mate Boban, Iko Stanic, and Vlado Santic.

5 Muslims, i.e., Bosniaks, were represented by Mr. Izetbegovic,

6 Mr. Muhamed Cengic, and currently I can't think of the name of the third

7 member.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

9 MR. STEWART:

10 Q. Was there any discernible difference in style between Dr. Karadzic

11 and Mr. Krajisnik in those Cutileiro discussions?

12 A. There was a difference in style. Mr. Karadzic was a bit more

13 short-tempered, a bit more impatient, whereas Mr. Krajisnik had endless

14 patience. He did not leave any stone unturned. He wanted every single

15 written or uttered word to be interpreted for him, word for word.

16 Q. And the third member that you mentioned the Bosnian Serb team,

17 Professor Koljevic, was there a difference in style between him and the

18 others?

19 A. Professor Koljevic was always a very good analyst. He had a

20 brilliant analytical mind and that was also the case during those

21 negotiations. And he always introduced a new way of thinking into all

22 those analyses and negotiations.

23 Q. Were you able to form any impression about the underlying

24 enthusiasm or lack of enthusiasm or resistance to a peaceful conclusion on

25 the part of the Bosnian Serb team?

1 A. There was enthusiasm about that plan. According to everybody's

2 belief, it brought something that could bring stability to the entire

3 state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the optimism was fueled even more by

4 the fact that the Croats and Muslims also had a positive opinion about

5 that proposal.

6 Q. In the discussions which you attended, Cutileiro discussions that

7 we've just been talking about, was there talk about a need as a result of

8 Cutileiro plan, for wide-scale population movements in Bosnia to make the

9 plan work?

10 A. The move of peoples was never discussed at all. There was more

11 talk about how to deal with the situation, how to solve the problem, how

12 to come up with a solution that would satisfy all the three sides, and

13 also how to implement any such solution, i.e., how much time would it take

14 to come up with constitutional solutions to support any such plan.

15 Q. When the -- now, at this time you were living in Sarajevo, weren't

16 you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it may seem an obvious question to you, Mrs. Cenic, but what

19 specifically led you and your family to leave Sarajevo in 1992?

20 A. As I've already told you, on the 4th of April, my family went for

21 a long weekend, which was nothing out of the ordinary at the time. The

22 only unusual thing about it was the fact that my nephew and my daughter

23 went with my parents because at that time the situation in Sarajevo was

24 already rather unpleasant. However, my family, my parents, thought that

25 it would be just demonstrations like so many times before, and that this

1 would pass. As far as I am concerned, I still managed to visit them and

2 to go back to Sarajevo and to even sleep in my apartment. However, half

3 of the building was already empty, and around my building you could see

4 some troops that I had not seen before, wearing uniforms that I hadn't

5 seen before. When I went to visit my parents, not taking anything from

6 the house with me, fully believing that I would return, that was on the

7 15th of April, I was no longer able to enter Sarajevo and I was advised

8 not to go and visit my parents because I would never be able to return.

9 Q. You mentioned your daughter. Your daughter was born in 1984 so

10 she would have been eight at this time?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, we still do not know where the parents

13 of the witness lived so I've got no idea --

14 MR. STEWART: We are coming to this, Your Honour, if I may, just a

15 couple of questions about the family.

16 Q. Now, is it right your apartment in Sarajevo ended up right on the

17 demarcation line between Serb-controlled territory and Muslim-controlled

18 territory; is that correct?

19 A. Yes. The name of the street was Djure Salaja. The number was 30.

20 Today the name of the street is Kemala Kapetanovic street. It is on the

21 banks of the Miljacka river.

22 Q. And your parents --

23 A. And between my house and the brings toll hotel there is only the

24 river and the bridge, nothing else.

25 Q. And your parents were living in Ilijas; is that correct?

1 A. My grandmother, Dragica Borenjic, lived in Ilijas. My parents

2 lived in the same building where I moved into when I returned to Sarajevo.

3 At the time, not even dreaming of a possible war, I tried to build -- buy

4 my own apartment in a neighbourhood called Surakino Selo. However, I

5 lived with my parents because the new apartment had to be redone, had to

6 be refurbished before I could move in.

7 Q. Anyway, the result was that the whole family in the first half of

8 April, the whole family left Sarajevo?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Your daughter went to live for a while with your parents, did she?

11 A. Yes. It so happened that my grandmother, my mother, my father, my

12 daughter and my nephew all found themselves in that place.

13 Q. And then you went to Vogosca on the 15th of April, and you went to

14 live and work in Vogosca from that point onwards, correct?

15 A. Yes. Between Vogosca and Ilijas, because I slept in Vogosca.

16 Q. And what was it that caused you to go there to work?

17 A. First of all, at the time, my friend worked -- had worked for

18 Mr. Tintor and I knew Mr. Tintor.

19 Q. That's Mr. Jovan Tintor?

20 A. Yes. I knew Mr. Tintor so I first approached him, especially in

21 view of the fact that I didn't know what would happen to my family that

22 was in Ilijas at the time.

23 Q. And so what was Mr. Tintor doing by way of his work, his daily

24 activity? What was Mr. Tintor doing at the time that you approached him?

25 A. Jovan Tintor was an activist of the SDS before the war, but in

1 addition to that, he had his own private companies.

2 Q. And so you were approaching Mr. Tintor to see if he could provide

3 you with paid work?

4 A. No. I wouldn't call it that way. At that time, I didn't know

5 what would happen. I didn't have a clue. I didn't know how long all that

6 would last. A war was the last thing on my mind. I didn't even know what

7 I should ask for. I just happened to be there near Vogosca to be as close

8 as possible to my family, and I was just there waiting to see when all

9 this was -- would pass so that we could all go back home.

10 Q. But did you then fairly quickly become involved in work in

11 Vogosca, for Mr. Tintor?

12 A. At that time, things happened really quickly. First of all, I

13 helped my family and I also helped his parents, who were old at the time

14 and there was really nobody else to look after them. Also, my grandmother

15 had only two rooms in her apartment at the time and all of them were

16 living there. So I slept on a fold-out chair in a big room in

17 Mr. Tintor's house, which -- in a part of which was not completed. And I

18 was not there alone. There were several of us sharing that room.

19 Q. And what was the -- what was the situation in Vogosca when you

20 arrived on the 15th of April?

21 A. The situation was one of confusion. People didn't know what to

22 do. No one knew anything. Some people still went to work, to Vogosca.

23 They stopped going to Sarajevo to work. So that some offices and shops

24 were open, others weren't. It was really a very confusing situation.

25 Q. What was confused, the economic life, the social life, the

1 political organisation? I just wonder if you could try and give the Trial

2 Chamber just a bit more of a picture of what sort of confusion there was

3 in Vogosca at that time.

4 A. Well, whoever I talked to, nobody knew what to do next. That's

5 the first thing. Everybody was waiting for something without knowing what

6 they were actually waiting for. You had to organise your daily life. I

7 don't know what it was like in other households, but people already

8 started asking themselves how long it would all last, because it was a

9 question of survival, how to carry on living, supplying one's basic needs,

10 and I never saw anything that was organised over there.

11 Q. I'll put it a different way. What were the changes from ordinary,

12 normal life in a community that had occurred by the time you arrived in

13 Vogosca?

14 A. What I want to say is this, and I think I've already said it:

15 Some shops were open, for instance. I think there was a cafe that was

16 open too, as far as I remember, whereas the others were closed. The

17 municipality building was almost empty and it's located in the centre.

18 It's a landmark. You can see it. There wasn't a lot of movement in town.

19 Nor did people socialise much.

20 Q. Was there -- were there any observable signs of either violence or

21 imminent violence?

22 A. Well, anything that you could see, any observable signs, not

23 really. I couldn't observe any. But I think I became conscious that the

24 situation was a serious one. Perhaps I realised this only at the point

25 when some of my relatives or rather Mr. Tintor's relatives disappeared at

1 Zuc. Otherwise they lived there. And he tried to get into contact with

2 them, to find them. So perhaps that was the turning point when I suddenly

3 realised, not only me but others too, that something was afoot. And as I

4 say, you had to organise -- well, there was fear. Everybody was afraid.

5 There was an atmosphere of fear, of tension, in the air.

6 Q. What was the ethnic makeup of Vogosca at that time?

7 A. I think that it was half-half, although that's roughly how I would

8 put it because we are speaking about people, human beings, there were

9 Serbs, there were Bosniaks. I think there were fewer Croats perhaps. So

10 you couldn't recognise them as a community. They weren't obvious as a

11 community but I would also like to pledges that most of the households,

12 for instance, around Vogosca, and that surrounding area, that most of the

13 land and the houses were owned by Serbs. That I know for a fact.

14 Q. So when you say half-half, is this -- is it that you're saying

15 that with a relatively small number of Croats, not a very significant

16 number of Croats, it was about 50-50 Serbs and Muslims?

17 A. Yes. I think that's how it was. But in Vogosca -- well, I didn't

18 know Vogosca before the war very well. I can't give you an exact figure.

19 All I do know for sure is what I've already told you, that most of the

20 households, the houses, and the land, especially arable land, farming

21 land, was owned by the Serbs.

22 Q. Were any steps taken -- you described a situation in which the

23 municipality buildings, people were not at work all the time and some of

24 the offices were empty. Did anybody take any steps to improve that

25 situation?

1 A. First of all, may I just be allowed to say that most of the

2 offices were empty and when you passed by the municipality building, it

3 was flagrantly obvious that there were no people, and after that I think

4 it was Mr. Jovan Tintor, Mr. Rajko Koprivica, and others, Svetislav Seso

5 Stanic, and a gentleman whose first name I know, and that was Raso, but I

6 can't remember his first and last name, they tried to organise themselves

7 and take over the municipality, if I can put it that way. That is to say,

8 they entered the municipality building. They went inside to try and

9 organise the work that the municipality generally did, the kind of work

10 they did.

11 I wasn't there, I wasn't present when they entered the

12 municipality building, but I knew -- do know that there was done peaceably

13 because there were no people there.

14 Q. Whether you say they -- take over the municipality. In the phrase

15 take over the municipality, are you implying any aggression in that step?

16 A. There could not have been any aggression because there was nobody

17 there: It was empty. I don't know that anybody suffered in any way, was

18 killed in any way, or injured or wounded in any way, or that there were

19 any clashes at all.

20 Q. You said that they went inside the building to try and organise

21 the work that the municipality generally did. Did they succeed in that,

22 trying to organise the work?

23 A. Well, something was started. Some work was done. However, the

24 municipality and the location of the municipality building itself, that is

25 to say it was in the centre of Vogosca itself, was not secure. It was not

1 a safe place to be. The position of Vogosca itself, its location, along

2 the main road with hills surrounding it, was such that it wasn't a secure

3 place to be. It wasn't safe to be inside the municipality building. And

4 at that time, there was sporadic gunfire.

5 Q. May I just halt you there a moment, Mrs. Cenic? When you say it

6 wasn't a safe place to be, it wasn't a secure place to be, not safe from

7 what and from whom?

8 A. At that time, nobody controlled -- well, as I said, the hills

9 surrounding Vogosca and Zuc area, I don't remember that any army held that

10 area under its control. And when you look at Vogosca, it's -- it lies as

11 if it were in the palm of your hand, and several people were killed by

12 sniper fire, and they were transported or rather there were casualties

13 from sniper fire and they were transferred, one to Pale and one to a

14 nearby hospital.

15 Q. How soon after your arrival in Vogosca on the 15th of April did

16 this taking over of the municipality building occur?

17 A. I think that it might have been the end of April, because

18 everything happened very fast. So the end of April and the beginning of

19 May. That's when something began to be established that would resemble

20 law and order.

21 Q. And between the 15th of April, because you've been very specific

22 about that date, between the 15th of April and the takeover of the

23 municipality building, had there been any outbreak of violence in Vogosca?

24 A. All I remember is, and this date must be checked out, verified,

25 when the attack on the Tas factory took place, I think that there were

1 certain casualties. Some people were killed on that occasion, because

2 there was a bus -- well, I wasn't there myself so I'm saying this on the

3 basis of what eye witnesses had told me, that there was a bus and they

4 tried to enter the Tas factory by bus. Later on it turned out that the

5 Green Berets because of their insignia on the caps, that they were Green

6 Berets, and there were several people killed on that occasion.

7 Q. Now, you've made it clear to the Trial Chamber that you were not

8 an eyewitness --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers make a pause between the

10 questions and answer because the technical booth informs us that they are

11 not able to tape the witness's answers in B/C/S if there is this

12 overlapping.

13 MR. STEWART: That's noted. Thank you, Your Honour, my apologies.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but as the witness also -- if you immediately

15 respond, then the interpreters are still translating Mr. Stewart's words

16 into B/C/S. If you start speaking, then we get on the same channel we get

17 two people speaking at the same time. So may I invite you to wait a while

18 and only then answer the question. Please proceed.

19 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Yes. I was saying, Mrs. Cenic, you've made it clear to the Trial

21 Chamber you weren't an eyewitness to this incident. You had said that you

22 were saying what you say on the basis of what eye witnesses had told you.

23 So you were given information, were you, by people who said they had

24 firsthand witnessed this incident; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And please could you clarify, who were in the bus that was trying

2 to enter the factory?

3 A. The Green Berets. That is to say members of the Green Berets.

4 And later on, as I say, there were people dead, killed. Caps were found

5 with the insignia on them.

6 Q. We have --

7 A. They were armed people in the bus.

8 Q. And the Green Berets was a Muslim outfit?

9 A. Yes. The Green Berets were a Bosniak unit, or a formation of the

10 then-army, the Bosniak army of the day.

11 Q. And were the -- what nationality or what ethnic group were the

12 people who were in occupation of the factory as the bus approached?

13 A. Serb, mostly.

14 Q. And were both Serbs and Muslims killed or only members of one

15 nationality?

16 A. As far as I remember, some Serbs were wounded. I don't think

17 anybody was killed, any Serb was killed. But I think there were

18 casualties on the Green Berets' side.

19 Q. And the Tas factory was what sort of factory?

20 A. It was a factory where the well known Golf cars were assembled,

21 and I know some Audis were also assembled there, the make of car being

22 Golf and Audi.

23 Q. From what you're saying is it clear that that was sometime in

24 April or is the date rather more doubtful than that?

25 A. I'm talking about the end of April. I think that's when it

1 happened. But please understand, Your Honours, that all this was

2 happening in a very short period of time because the time I spent in the

3 area was two and a half months.

4 Q. Was that incident at the Tas factory, was that the first outbreak

5 of violence which you learned in Vogosca at that period?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And it was definitely before the takeover of the municipality

8 building, was it?

9 A. I think it was, yes.

10 Q. Can you say when the -- was there then a further outbreak or

11 incident of violence at some point in Vogosca, after that Tas incident?

12 A. The fighting, or rather the shooting during that time, while I was

13 there, took place around Vogosca, never in Vogosca itself, except a

14 certain number of sniper fires, snipers that opened fire towards the

15 centre or at the centre.

16 Q. And without elaborate detail, Mrs. Cenic, at this time, in whose

17 house were you living and in what conditions and circumstances?

18 A. At first, as I've already said, I slept on a sort of camp bed.

19 Well, wasn't really a bed, but a make-shift one in a part of Mr. Tintor's

20 house which had been completed, where there was a long room, and where

21 several of us slept in that same room. One next to the other on these

22 camp beds or stretchers, they looked like.

23 Q. And from the period when you arrived in Vogosca, up to the

24 takeover of the municipality building, were you working in Vogosca in the

25 daytime?

1 A. No. I helped his parents mostly. I found transportation to go to

2 my own parents', and I was at hand to help the elderly people in the

3 neighbourhood.

4 Q. Did you begin some form of different work upon or shortly after

5 the takeover of the municipality building?

6 A. Yes. May I just say that this administrative body moved to the

7 Park hotel in Vogosca, and that's where there were two or three make-shift

8 offices, and that's where I slept, in one of those rooms, not only I

9 myself. There were a number of us who slept at the Park hotel.

10 Q. I'll come back to the phrase administrative body in a moment but

11 how long after the takeover of the municipality building did that move to

12 the Park hotel occur?

13 A. I think it was already in May that we were put up at the Park

14 hotel.

15 Q. So the time gap, if you can recall it, between the peaceful

16 takeover of the municipality building, which you described, and the move

17 to the Hotel Park, do you remember how long that was?

18 A. Well, to be quite honest, I think that was just several days. It

19 was a matter of days.

20 Q. Now, you used the phrase, in an answer a few moments ago, you

21 said: Just -- may I just say that this administrative body moved to the

22 Park hotel in Vogosca. What was that body? What was the entity to which

23 you give that label?

24 A. Well, we tried -- well, there were two women, a young girl

25 actually and a woman, or I myself and the girl's name was Branka Cvijetic,

1 and up until the war, she was the -- she was a secretary in Mr. Tintor's

2 private company. And the two of us tried to set up some sort of

3 administration, that is to say to introduce some sort of protocol so that

4 every decision or document or piece of paper should be registered and

5 recorded in the proper manner. That's what we did to begin with. We

6 started doing work like that.

7 Q. So you were, is this a fair summary, you and Branka, you were

8 establishing some sort of municipal administration?

9 A. Well, we had to start somewhere.

10 Q. And who did you report to?

11 A. Mostly to Mr. Tintor, because in a way he was the sort of person

12 in charge.

13 Q. Do you recall if he had any official position?

14 A. Up until the war, he did not have any official position, as far as

15 I know.

16 Q. Was there, at any point, a movement out of Vogosca of any ethnic

17 group?

18 A. The Bosniaks began to leave Vogosca, and if I can just describe

19 the situation to you briefly, in view of the fact that I was there fairly

20 frequently, going to Ilijas mostly, there were so-called checkpoints along

21 the way. That means that the road -- you had Bosniak villages on one side

22 of the road, but the road itself was controlled, that is to say

23 Vogosca-Semizovac-Ilijas, that road, you could go that way, you could go

24 along that road, but there was the danger of being shot at by a sniper,

25 and that's what happened to me on one occasion as well. But as I say,

1 there were also checkpoints along the road, both on that road and on the

2 other side of Vogosca, when you go to Kobilja Glava, when you go in that

3 direction.

4 Q. Who was doing the checking at those checkpoints?

5 A. Along the road towards Ilijas, the checkpoints were manned by the

6 Serbs. It was the Serbs that were in control of those checkpoints and

7 controlled the road. And you couldn't pass through without documents,

8 without ID papers. But similarly, at that time, the Bosniaks were leaving

9 Vogosca, and, of course, they sought ways and means of leaving. For them

10 to be able to pass through the checkpoints, they had to have a piece of

11 paper, a document, and then we began issuing permits or certificates for

12 them to be able to leave Vogosca without being stopped or so as to avoid

13 any unpleasantness at the checkpoints.

14 Q. When you say, "We began issuing permits or certificates," who

15 is "we" in that context?

16 A. Well, I mean Ms. Cvijetic - she was Miss Cvijetic at the time - so

17 the two of us tried to introduce some sort of order into all this because

18 the people would come and see us to obtain these papers. Some of them

19 referred to this as a pass or permit or certificate. They used different

20 names to denote these documents and papers to be issued to them for them

21 to be able to pass through the checkpoints without being stopped.

22 Q. And under whose authority was -- whether it's a permit or a

23 certificate, doesn't really matter too much perhaps, but under whose

24 authority was such a document issued?

25 A. It had a stamp of the municipality, a municipality stamp, and

1 signature and was registered in the protocol book with a number. It was

2 given a number. The copy would be stored in the archives and the original

3 would be given to the person asking for the permit. All these terms were

4 used at the time. It's rather strange to be giving things like that,

5 these terms and expressions, but there was the archives and the archives

6 were moved from Vogosca to Pale eventually.

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, this discrete topic is going to take

8 more than just a couple of minutes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You want to move to another one or to stick

10 with this one.

11 MR. STEWART: No I will stick with this one but it would take a

12 little time.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, nevertheless, I would like to at least get an

14 answer to your last question, apart from what else -- Mrs. Cenic,

15 Mr. Stewart asked you under whose authority these permit or certificate

16 were given, and you said it had a stamp of the municipality or explained

17 that. Now, was that after the municipality had been peacefully taken over

18 or -- I'm trying to find out what the municipality was at that time. Was

19 that the Serbs who had taken over?

20 THE WITNESS: [In English] May I answer?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, the so-called Crisis

23 Staff was established, and the crisis Presidency of the municipality, and

24 they continued to manage the municipality, if I can put it that way. So

25 it was under their authority that these permits were issued. The

1 administrative part of the work was done by the two of us, Ms. Cvijetic

2 and myself.

3 MR. STEWART: Perhaps Your Honour can see why I was, with respect,

4 suggesting that this really might be an appropriate evening to stop at

5 7.00 and resume tomorrow.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I'd just like to ask one question and then we'll

7 stop.

8 Is my understanding then correct that at least at that moment

9 that -- no, let me ask you in a different way.

10 Were the Muslims who were leaving Vogosca, as you said, were they

11 in any way represented in this municipality administration after it was

12 peacefully taken over, as you told us?

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour -- with respect, Your Honour I wonder if

14 I --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I put a question.

16 MR. STEWART: May be allowed to put my examination.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stewart.

18 MR. STEWART: I also had one point to mention this evening,

19 Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart. Mr. Stewart. The Chamber can ask

21 questions at any moment.

22 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour, the primary position is that

23 the party calling the witness conducts examination and, Your Honour, I

24 have --.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Stewart, I am --

1 MR. STEWART: -- believe I'm doing exactly that, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I put a question to the witness and I'd

3 like to get an answer from the witness.

4 So my question was whether the Muslims who were leaving Vogosca as

5 you told us, were they in any way represented in this new administration

6 of the municipality after it had been peacefully taken over?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not as far as I know.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I hear you say no and I receive part of the answer in

9 translation, which seemed to start with not as far as I know. Yes, you --

10 thank for that answer.

11 We'll stop for the day and we'll resume tomorrow morning, not in

12 the afternoon but in the morning, at 9.00 in Courtroom I. We would like

13 to see you back then, and I'd also like to instruct you not to speak with

14 anyone about your testimony you have given until now and you're still

15 about to give.

16 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning.

17 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour, I did mention that Mr. Josse

18 informed me that I he did have a point that he wished to mention. I think

19 he promised Your Honours to read something, as far as I remember, so he's

20 probably reporting back on what he promised to read.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for another second.

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honor, may I say myself, I apologise for being

23 testy a moment ago, Your Honour. It's because counsel does try to devise

24 a logical scheme through some of these topics but my apologies if I was

25 rather brusque about that.

1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber reserves the right to put questions at

2 the moment the Chamber deems fit and then to receive an answer to those

3 questions.

4 MR. STEWART: I hope my apology is accepted, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, your apology is accepted.

6 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse?

8 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour the good news is I am contents for the

9 claim to use this document in effect as an index to the Hotic documents.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. JOSSE: I would invite the Chamber to read all the documents,

12 but the index provided by the Prosecution is of use. It's completely

13 neutral, as far as I can see, and it would be churlish of me to say that

14 you and your fellow judges couldn't read it.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We now get it all back. The Chamber highly

16 appreciates that you assist in making our work as efficient as possible,

17 not to have to make our own -- not to make our own lists of documents.

18 Thank you very much.

19 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of March

22 2006, at 9.00 a.m.

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