1 Thursday, 27 April 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [Mr. Krajisnik enters court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 There are a few procedural matters which can be dealt with right
11 away in your presence, Mr. Krajisnik, now -- I've not reminded you yet as
12 a witness to the solemn declaration, so at this moment you're still the
13 accused and not the witness in your case.
14 First of all, the Judges would decide on whether they would agree
15 with the alternative option for contacting your counsel not by letter but
16 by raising the matter in open court. Of course, as an alternative option,
17 I mean, if you'd like to do it by letter, that's still possible. We have
18 taken notice of the concerns of communication with counsel; we'll take
19 care of that. And we did not understand that there would be any objection
20 from the Prosecution. There is not, so therefore as an alternative
21 option, you are allowed to do so. I even was informed that your first
22 application would be made soon, perhaps even very soon.
23 But before we allow you to make such an application, there is
24 another matter, which is P1135.
25 We do understand, Mr. Josse, that you have agreed that the whole
1 of that document could be admitted into evidence but that you'd like to
2 clearly have on the record that it is without prejudice to the -- to the
3 position of the Defence on a similar point in the future. That's on the
4 record now.
5 MR. JOSSE: I'm grateful to Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And, therefore, P1135 is now in its entirety admitted
7 into evidence.
8 As far as D171 and 173 is concerned, later today an opportunity
9 will be given to briefly and in private session address the request to
10 have these two exhibits admitted under seal.
11 Then as far as D146 is concerned, the minutes of the 77th Session
12 of the Bosnian Presidency, it was tendered on the 16th of March and the
13 English translation was received on the 26th of April. If the Prosecution
14 would have taken already a position as far as whether it should be
15 objected or not, I'd like to hear; if not, the Chamber would like to hear
16 that by next Monday. Yes.
17 And I always make mistakes by using the word "next." The Monday
18 to come after this weekend.
19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I think that -- if I'm not mistaken,
20 that may be a holiday.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, you're right. I'm not -- yes. It's good
22 that foreigners remind me that on the 1st of May we celebrate the birthday
23 of our Queen, although it's not the day of her birthday. It was, just for
24 your information, inherited from her mother who celebrated her birthday on
25 the 31st of April. Then that will then be Tuesday, Mr. Tieger.
1 D139, I do understand that the Defence was ordered on the 16th of
2 March to submit a CD and a B/C/S transcript by the 27th of March and that
3 an English transcript was finally provided on the 4th of April, that
4 filing -- for filing a deadline was set 28th of April and that you're now
5 ready to submit D139.
6 MR. JOSSE: I'm told that that's been done, I'm glad to say, Your
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's in the hands of Mr. Registrar, and it's --
9 were there any objections? I don't remember. I think it was not
10 complete, but could we also hear by Tuesday whether there are any
11 objections against admission of D139.
12 Then I dealt with the procedural issues.
13 Mr. Krajisnik, now you are a witness again in your own case, and
14 as a witness I do understand that you wanted to raise an issue of contact
15 with -- contact with counsel. Of course then that would be
16 accused/counsel contact. You may address the Court.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to speak to my lawyer
18 briefly to consult about what I wish to present here in court and which is
19 not related to my testimony, not directly but indirectly. It has to do
20 with the information provided in the media in Bosnia-Herzegovina which is
21 not appropriate and which is damaging this trial, myself, and my family
22 terribly. So that's why I'm asking you this.
23 I know that I'm prohibited from talking to them or to anyone else.
24 I didn't know how to address the issue. I thought that I should speak to
25 him on this matter and then either I should address the Court or he should
1 address the Court. Perhaps I think it's better if Mr. Stewart addresses
2 the Court on that matter, if you allow me to consult him.
3 If that is not possible, I would like to ask you to allow me to
4 address you myself. I know what you said and I would like to abide by it
5 fully to honour what the usual practice is, and I want to exercise full
7 Thank you.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Just for our better understanding, Mr. Krajisnik, do
10 I understand you well, and the Judges will consider your request during
11 the next break, but do I understand you well that when you talk about
12 information in the media in Bosnia-Herzegovina that it's information about
13 your testimony? Or do I not understand you well?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It has to do with misinterpreting
15 what I said here before this Court, and that has been causing the wrong
16 kind of consequences in Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's why I would like to
17 consult my lawyer. I think that what you said is right.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if you say "what I said here in court," you
19 mean to refer to what you said as a witness in this courtroom?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no -- oh, yes, yes, as a
21 witness. Yesterday and the day before yesterday. I cannot remember the
22 days right.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's perfectly clear. We'll consider the
24 matter over the next break and we come with a decision --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- when possible.
2 Yes, Mr. Stewart.
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm just wondering whether as
4 Mr. Krajisnik's counsel whether briefly I could make a comment before Your
5 Honours consider it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we suggest, although we're in Your
8 Honours' hands, we suggest that probably and based on past experience in
9 related matters, it probably would be helpful to the Trial Chamber and all
10 concerned if it were felt appropriate to allow Mr. Krajisnik to speak to
11 us first and just, if you like, sift and identify what the issue is, what
12 the channels of communication have been in relation to this matter,
13 because obviously Mr. Krajisnik has obtained this information from Bosnia.
14 We know nothing about that at the moment, Your Honour.
15 And also for the future, it may be that we can establish different
16 or other lines of communication which would help to smooth this issue.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I -- so what you would say, actually,
18 Mr. Stewart is that you would prefer that permission would be granted to
19 Mr. Krajisnik to speak about it rather than him addressing the Chamber on
20 the matter?
21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that would seem likely --
22 JUDGE ORIE: That was your primary --
23 MR. STEWART: Indeed, Your Honour. So we support that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider it and most likely after the first
25 break give a decision.
1 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: But of course I can't promise anything because we
3 have to conclude our deliberations on the matter, but we'll try to do our
4 utmost best.
5 Then, Mr. Krajisnik, this is the moment that I'm going to remind
6 you, as I did, as you may have noticed, with all witnesses, I'm going to
7 remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration given at the
8 beginning of your testimony.
9 And, Mr. Stewart, I don't know whether it's you or whether it's
10 Mr. Josse, who will continue.
11 MR. JOSSE: I'm simply going to deal with one other intercept,
12 Your Honour, which follows on from the one that was dealt with yesterday
14 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Josse.
15 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
16 Your Honour, I'm going to deal with what is P396, an intercept
17 that was dealt with during the evidence of Mr. Bjelobrk. It has been
18 played for the Court already. I do not intend to have it replayed now.
19 The interpreters have copies. I have some others here -- first of all,
20 could Mr. Krajisnik have one in his language. I don't know who else would
21 like a copy. I --
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Two of the Judges have it and I have to -- yes --
24 MR. JOSSE: Well, here's one for you --
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, I've got it. I've got it.
1 MR. JOSSE: I notified the Chamber this morning that it was going
2 to be --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for that. We all have it in
4 front of us.
5 WITNESS: MOMCILO KRAJISNIK [Resumed]
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 Examination by Mr. Josse: [Continued]
8 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, yesterday you were dealing with the historical
9 agreement and the Belgrade Initiative. This was another conversation with
10 Mr. Karadzic on that subject.
11 In the English I would invite everyone to turn to the bottom of
12 page 2 where it says -- where Dr. Karadzic says: "Now they will, we will
13 have the initiative, they will have to explain to their people what they
14 want if they don't want this."
15 Mr. Krajisnik says: "Yes. What is it really, if they don't want
16 this, what do they want?"
17 Karadzic: "He wants to force Tudjman, so let's force Tudjman, we
18 don't mind."
19 Krajisnik: "Nobody is stopping him."
20 Karadzic: "We don't mind forcing Tudjman to accept this.
21 Krajisnik: "Yes.
22 Karadzic: "We will not force him.
23 Krajisnik: "So I said please. I fought for the republic to be
24 equal in the end. I stress I really took care not to break any regulation
25 from the agreement of the Muslims and the Serbs."
1 Two or three lines on then. Mr. Krajisnik: "I don't care about
2 the others, I said it deliberately. Not one ... Equal republic, integral
3 with the same status, I would not let Bosnia have a different status."
4 Firstly, is this a reference --
5 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, Mr. -- we, as we were requested to do,
6 brought our copy of P396. I notice that from what you're reading there
7 are some differences, I would say minor ones, but it seems as if we're
8 working from a different -- let me just see whether I have the --
9 MR. JOSSE: This is a constant problem, Your Honour. It's a
10 problem in relation to other documents. And Mr. Stewart and I came across
11 the same problem this morning in relation to a -- some Assembly sessions.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if you're quoting from an exhibit which was
13 admitted, then of course we'd like you to quote from that version of the
15 I think as far as the portions read are concerned, there are no
16 major differences, apart from that where it reads: "And that we are all
17 treated the same," that the words "the same status is used. I would not
18 let Bosnia," here it says "be treated differently," and here I think you
19 just read "have a different status."
20 So there are minor -- I wouldn't say that -- one couldn't even say
21 that one contradicts the other, but the translation is phrased in a
22 different way.
23 Let's proceed for the time being because I don't think it really
24 affects your questions.
25 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
1 Q. The extract that I have just read, Mr. Krajisnik, refers to what
2 negotiations, please?
3 A. These were the negotiations that were held in Belgrade and that
4 have to do with the Belgrade Initiative. They were relying upon the
5 historic agreement between the Serbs and Muslims. The Belgrade Initiative
6 came as a result of that.
7 Q. And what stance are you enunciating here to Dr. Karadzic?
8 A. I'm complaining, in a way, to Mr. Karadzic to the effect that
9 objections were raised against me because I was in favour of this
10 Belgrade Initiative, although I insisted that everything in this document
11 should be as envisaged in the historic agreement and that it should, in
12 fact, be incorporated in the Belgrade Initiative. I did not allow Bosnia
13 not to be equal, so I did everything that Mr. Zulfikarpasic and
14 Mr. Filipovic had asked for.
15 Q. And I want to ask you about one other passage a few lines further
16 down where there is some reference to Alija. Where Dr. Karadzic
17 says: "Maybe you fought more than Alija would."
18 You laugh and say: "I see it's" -- let me correct that. In the
19 version that I've very helpfully been provided by the registrar, the
20 English is: "Maybe you obtained more through the struggle than Alija
21 would have."
22 Your response is: "I see it's better to send me than Alija
23 because these Serbs think he would not ... I would not trick them. Well,
24 let it be, we want it honest, it doesn't matter."
25 Karadzic: "Yes, yes. I mean, now we can only be surprised and
1 they, like, they are aggressive. Let them be aggressive now, let their
2 people see what they, what they want, so do you people want, if you don't
3 want this."
4 What's being said there between the two of you, please?
5 A. Well, I was a lot younger then and my nerves or a lot better.
6 Even the most serious matters were things that I had a relaxed attitude
8 See, even this serious matter here that perhaps I handled it
9 better than Alija would have, I even put that in a slightly humourous way,
10 but the point was that even had the late Alija Izetbegovic, who
11 advocated -- even if the late Alija Izetbegovic had participated in the
12 negotiations, he would not have advocated the Bosnian cause better. So
13 that was said my way of a joke, but the point was to say that I achieved
14 more than even Alija Izetbegovic would have achieved had he been at that
15 meeting. But the form is, well, sort of, I always wanted to talk to
16 people that way, not on the basis of tensions.
17 MR. JOSSE: That's all I want to ask on this topic, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Josse.
19 Mr. Stewart.
20 MR. STEWART: [Microphone not activated].
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
22 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm going to turn to the
23 Serb Assembly Session of the 24th of October, 1991. I think that
24 notification was given that this was an item that we would be going to
25 more or less straight away.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have an exhibit number for that? I don't -- as
2 a matter of fact, I remember that we have supposed to bring the A and B
3 instructions. We were requested --
4 MR. STEWART: Yes, we gave advance notice of that, in effect, Your
5 Honour, because we don't expect actually to get to those today, but
6 that's --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but not the session -- you're now referring to
8 the 24th of October -- oh, that's perhaps the -- yes. I do understand
9 it's P64A, tab 270. I can at least find it on my computer.
10 MR. STEWART: Yes, that's right, Your Honour. Yes, that's the
11 correct document. That's the -- that's the one notified and it is the
12 right one. And, Your Honour, I've got in accordance with the practice
13 yesterday, I have a B/C/S copy with those similar marginal numbering notes
14 but no other notes.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters please have copies.
16 Thank you.
17 MR. STEWART: Please have copies or have? Exactly the same, Your
19 THE INTERPRETER: We have not received any documents.
20 MR. STEWART: I thought --
21 THE INTERPRETER: The English booth does not have a copy.
22 JUDGE ORIE: There's discrimination between the different
23 languages. I do understand.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, if it could help, perhaps the
1 document could be placed on the ELMO. But as a rule three copies are
2 needed, one per each booth. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that one copy was provided.
4 MR. STEWART: Yes. I've got another copy, Your Honour. It
5 doesn't have that marginal numbering, but that shouldn't be a major
6 difficulty if we just get the page number as we go through.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, or be put on the ELMO so that both booths would
8 have --
9 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we might be able to assist. We have
10 additional copies as well. They can be returned to us after they're used.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: If then perhaps an English version could be put on
13 the ELMO so the Judges have access to it on their screens, all of us,
14 unless there's another English copy available.
15 MR. STEWART: We can put the English on your screens, Your Honour,
16 through Mr. Sladojevic, in the way we did yesterday. The only remaining
17 question is whether anybody then needs the English on the ELMO.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think we would then need it and I -- okay.
19 Let's try to do that.
20 MR. STEWART: Yes. And one presses the middle left button on that
21 mini console, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
23 MR. STEWART: We seem to be in business, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 Examination by Mr. Stewart:
1 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you should have in front of you a copy in your own
2 language of a transcript of the Serb Assembly held on the 24th of October,
3 1991, and we're going to operate the -- broadly the same system as
4 yesterday with the marginal numbering. You're familiar with that by now.
5 Could you find number 1? It's only about three or four pages into
6 the document.
7 MR. STEWART: And, Your Honours, in the English it's on page 6
8 where Mr. Krajisnik is shown as starting to speak.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it.
10 MR. STEWART:
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.
12 "Ladies and gentlemen," and so on, you say.
13 "The club of Serbian representatives in the parliament of Bosnia
14 and Herzegovina gave me the honour to speak on their behalf. First of
15 all, I would like to inform the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina,
16 the entire Serbian people everywhere, the citizens of Bosnia and
17 Herzegovina, as well as the Yugoslav and world public, about the reasons
18 why the Serbian representatives in the parliament of Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina have decided to establish the Assembly of Serbian people in
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina and about their rights and the significance and
21 tasks of this Assembly."
22 Mr. Krajisnik, just to put it in its context - and we've had lots
23 of evidence about it and I'm not going to explore the topic with you -
24 this of course followed a matter of nine days after the crisis in the
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly when the Serb deputies left the chamber,
1 didn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then you continue here: "The main reason lies in a serious
4 attempt to compromise the national sovereignty of the Serbian people in
5 Bosnia and Herzegovina and their constitutional and legal position in
6 Yugoslavia, which in turn compromises their survival in the territory of
7 Bosnia and Herzegovina, where they have lived from time immemorial."
8 Mr. Krajisnik, can we -- when you were saying "in turn compromises
9 their survival in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina," were you
10 intending that literally in the sense of their continuing to live and
11 exist in that territory?
12 A. It could not be taken literally, so it's not that literally. It
13 was used in a pejorative sense. I can even explain that if necessary.
14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm wondering if the word that came
15 across in the English translation was "pejorative." I only --
16 THE INTERPRETER: That was said in the B/C/S, notes the
17 interpreter, "pejorative."
18 JUDGE ORIE: From what my guess would be, if I compare to other
19 languages I know, it's saying things -- things being worse than they
20 actually are. "Peior" is Latin for worse, from what I remember.
21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm in a position to confirm that from
22 my own knowledge.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So if we understand it this way. I don't know
24 whether it's English which is usually --
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, I did question it only because in
1 English it simply has the sense of being in some way insulting or -- so I
2 questioned it because it doesn't fit very well in English at all.
3 Mr. Harmon is nodding. We don't always agree linguistically across the
4 Atlantic, but here we do.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It would be good if you could ask Mr. Krajisnik to
6 clarify exactly what he meant when he used that word in B/C/S.
7 MR. STEWART: Yes. Well, that's what I had in mind, Your Honour.
8 I didn't want to comment on it inappropriately.
9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, perhaps -- you weren't using it literally -- well,
10 in some sense then I'll put -- in some sense you were using it
11 figuratively. What in fact did you have in -- what were you intending to
13 A. When I said this sentence, I meant that the Serb people were a
14 constituent people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the three equal peoples of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. If Bosnia-Herzegovina were to become a unitary state
16 and if we would accept for the Serb people not to be a constituent people,
17 then in fact they would turn into a minority, and then the survival of the
18 Serb people would be brought into question because you have certain rights
19 as a people, and when you are a national minority then you have less
21 When I use the word "pejorative," I was trying to say that I was
22 not speaking literally. It's not that everybody would not survive. I was
23 just trying to say that their rights would be jeopardised, that some of
24 their rights would be denied. That is what I meant, although "pejorative"
25 may mean something different in your language.
1 Q. Well, that's -- thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.
2 The -- then further on -- I'm not going to read the whole of this
3 answer --
4 MR. STEWART: But, Your Honour, sometimes if I don't do that in
5 the interests of saving time, may I nevertheless particularly invite Your
6 Honours to -- to note that passage. This is Mr. Krajisnik speaking rather
7 than I simply taking the time to go through it?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, then I pick it up again then. It's
10 page 8 in the English.
11 Q. But, Mr. Krajisnik, it's about three or four large paragraphs
12 further on where it says in the English: "At this point there is no need
13 to spend more time ..." Completely apposite phrase.
14 "At this point there is no need to spend more time on the
15 constitutional amendments ..."
16 Do you have that? You're nodding.
17 "At this point there is no need to spend more time on the
18 constitutional amendments which were adopted by the former parliament, in
19 collaboration with our partners in the government at the end of the
20 mandate. In one of those amendments, the inalienable sovereignty was
21 transferred from the people to the republic, which is contrary to the
22 federal constitution."
23 Now, what -- what did you have specifically in mind there,
24 Mr. Krajisnik, by talking of transfer from the people to the republic?
25 A. The constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina. You can see it. We have
1 it here as an exhibit from the Prosecution, and in this constitution it
2 says that sovereignty is at the level of the people -- the peoples,
3 Muslims, Croats, and Serbs. The amendments that were introduced at the
4 last moment divided this sovereignty. So it was at the level of the
5 republic, but in part it also belonged to the peoples. So the status of
6 the rights of the peoples deteriorated, not only the Serbs but all three.
7 So, in a way, it became debatable, if I can put it that way.
8 So that was done on the eve of the multi-party elections at the
9 last moment by the former Assembly of the Socialist Republic of
11 Q. Then you continue in the next paragraph --
12 MR. STEWART: Again, Your Honours, I'm not going to read that
13 paragraph but simply invite Your Honours to note that as part of
14 Mr. Krajisnik's contribution.
15 Q. And then there's a paragraph, middle of page 9 of the English, you
16 begin: "In addition to all this ..."
17 Do you see that paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. "In addition to all this, the present structure of the parliament
20 of Bosnia and Herzegovina does not include a constitutional and legal
21 institution which would protect each of the three constituent peoples of
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina from being out-voted. True, in the essential
23 rights of the national groups, an amendment to the constitution of Bosnia
24 and Herzegovina of 1990 introduced the Council for National Equality,
25 which was to decide on such issues by a consensus. However, the Council
1 has not been established to this day. Although the draft of the code on
2 the Council entered the parliament procedure several months ago, the code
3 has not been adopted yet simply because the coalition of the SDA and the
4 HDZ opposes its authorities granted by the constitution."
5 Again, Mr. Krajisnik, I'm not going to go into the technicalities
6 and constitutional aspects of that with you, but just invite you to
7 confirm, if you can. That issue about the Council of National Equality,
8 that had been in the nature of a running saw or continuing issue of
9 conflict, hadn't it, between the Serbs in the parliament on the one hand
10 and the Muslims and Croats on the other?
11 A. It was a constant subject of debate among us, but the answer to
12 your question is: Yes.
13 Q. And then do you see a marginal note 3. It's just about a page or
14 so on.
15 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, it's at page 11 of the English
17 Q. Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik, number 3. Just going a few lines
18 above where it should be marked there's a sentence that begins: "For
19 example, the republican MUP."
20 Do you see that sentence?
21 A. Just a moment.
22 Q. There's a reference in the same sentence to the SDA/HDZ coalition.
23 Do you see that? It should be just about three or four lines up from
24 where you see the number 3 in the margin.
25 A. I really can't find the words "MUP" anywhere in the Serbian
1 version. I found the representative of the HDZ --
2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour -- yes, I don't know what's happening,
3 Your Honour. It's -- Your Honour, we could very quickly offer assistance
4 in identifying the sentence, I'm sure. It's unusual for Mr. Krajisnik to
5 need it, but if -- something is clearly going wrong ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --
7 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. That's --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I got it. It's a bit lower,
9 not above, number 3.
10 MR. STEWART:
11 Q. Oh, I'm -- the number 3 has slipped then. My apologies, Mr.
12 Krajisnik, and sometimes the print isn't that distinct either.
13 The -- all right. You've got it then. Well, I'll read the
14 sentence: "In that way, some laws, decisions, and regulations which are
15 unconstitutional and against the vital interests of the Serbian people in
16 many areas are imposed upon them. For example, the republican MUP is in
17 the hands of the SDA/HDZ coalition and there are indications that the
18 enormous increase in the number of police reservists, feverish technical
19 equipping and arming of the police have in fact been carried out in order
20 to create a special army in Bosnia and Herzegovina."
21 Mr. Krajisnik, you refer to indications. Could you describe the
22 nature of the indications which you were aware of at that time?
23 A. I was always cautious in sharing the information that I had. I
24 always tried to avoid outright assertions. But this was common knowledge
25 that a decision was made to level out, as they say, the ethnic force and
1 to mobilise a lot of men from the Croat and Muslim ranks. And that did
2 produce an impression that the MUP was being reinforced and equipped in
3 order to create a Muslim army.
4 I did not want to -- to say that in so many words. I wanted
5 everyone to have their own opinion, but it was a fact that a great number
6 of reservists had been mobilised in a number of municipalities and it was
7 a fact that the greatest number of them was Muslims.
8 MR. STEWART: [Microphone not activated].
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. STEWART: Sorry.
11 Q. And then you continue: "The instruction by the defence minister
12 regarding the list of conscripts and his orders that the men of military
13 age and reservists should not respond to the call-up represent examples of
14 flagrant violation of the federal and republican law with the aim of
15 instilling disorder in Bosnia and Herzegovina."
16 First of all, the defence minister at that time was who?
17 A. It was Mr. Doko, Jerko Doko.
18 Q. And the call-up being referred to there was call-up to the JNA,
19 wasn't it?
20 A. That, I think, should be an invitation to national defence
21 secretariats across municipalities.
22 If you allow me to read. "The instructions of the minister of
23 defence regarding lists," this is a reference to the secretariats of
24 national defence which held lists of men, according to which conscription
25 was carried out. Maybe I should read it more carefully. The demand from
1 the army was that they wanted to take-over those lists and take-over
2 mobilisation as such, because the secretariats of national defence did not
3 want to perform their duty to carry out mobilisation, as envisaged by the
4 federal law, according to the instructions given by the minister of
6 Q. You can turn on quite a lot of pages now, Mr. Krajisnik, please,
7 probably about 10 in your copy.
8 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, this goes to page 25 in the English
10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, what we're looking for is a number 4 in the margin
11 and it should be very close to something headed "decision for the Serbian
12 people to stay in a joint state of Yugoslavia."
13 Let us know, please, when you've found that.
14 A. I found number 4.
15 Q. Yes, and against that or very close to that do you see the
16 heading: "Decision for the Serbian people to stay in a joint state of
18 THE INTERPRETER: It's page 21 in the Serbian version, if that
19 could help the witness.
20 MR. STEWART: It would. Thank you very much.
21 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, page 21.
22 A. I was about to praise the good organisation, but ...
23 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I would have welcomed that rare accolade from you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm confident, Mr. Krajisnik, that you'll find
25 another opportunity to do so in the near future.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Will you go and have a look where
2 that is in their version -- I found it, actually, in my copy, even without
3 the number. But it's before the 4.
4 MR. STEWART:
5 Q. I -- Mr. Krajisnik, we've identified the mild breakdown in the
6 system and we can remedy that pretty easily, I'm confident, for the
8 Anyway, you've got -- the key point is, in the end, not the
9 numbering. You've got the decision for the -- where it says: "Decision
10 for the Serbian people to stay in a joint state of Yugoslavia," have you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Right. Now, just to clarify, and one can see easily from the
13 English version of course as well as from the B/C/S, that this has been --
14 this is an item on the agenda -- you've just said that yourself as
15 chairman a few lines up and Mr. Zekic is presenting it. So the proposal
16 is that decision: I. On the basis of the right to self-determination and
17 with the aim of a full and permanent protection of rights and interests of
18 the Serbian people, the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina decide to
19 stay in a joint state of Yugoslavia, together with Serbia, Montenegro,
20 Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina, Slavonia, Baranja, and West Srem,
21 and any others who decide in favour of such a survival."
22 So, in fact, Serbian Autonomous Districts is plural, isn't it,
23 there? We've got it singular in the English text, but it's plural.
24 And then II: "This decision takes effect once the Serbian people
25 in Bosnia and Herzegovina confirm it in a plebiscite."
1 And then it's to be published in Javnost. And then you -- we can
2 see at the bottom of page 25 in the English. You as the chairman, you
3 say: "Although it's obvious that we need neither to discuss nor to vote
4 on this, we must do it.
5 "Anybody want to discuss it?
6 "No one."
7 You move and so on, and it seems to be adopted "nem con," as one
8 says, and there is applause and so on.
9 And then -- but looking back to what's been adopted, at this
10 point, Mr. Krajisnik, a decision to stay in a joint state of Yugoslavia
11 together with Serbia, Montenegro, and the Serbian Autonomous Districts,
12 this is assuming, is it, at this point something -- well, I assuming that
13 Slovenia and Croatia were going to have no place in the future in
14 Yugoslavia, that they were going to have seceded?
15 A. They had not seceded yet, but they had already clearly expressed
16 their position that they wished to leave Yugoslavia. And I can explain
17 why this decision was formulated in this way, if necessary.
18 Q. Well, at that point, Mr. Krajisnik, you appear to confirm -- of
19 course, the intentions were very clear from Slovenia and Croatia. I'm
20 just putting it to you that this was you, the Bosnian Serbs, well,
21 accepting what was clearly the writing on the wall that that was going to
22 happen. Correct? You're nodding. We'll take that as a "yes."
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, without contradiction.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm nodding, but I'm -- because I'm
25 waiting for you to be interpreted. But what I want to say is that it was
1 abundantly clear to all of us after all of these discussions held by the
2 president and others that Croatia and Slovenia had serious intentions
3 about leaving Yugoslavia. It would have an anachronous to say at that
4 point that we wanted to live together with Croats and Slovenes if we knew
5 they were about to declare their independence.
6 MR. STEWART:
7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I didn't want to dwell on that point. I just was
8 basically seeking that confirmation that it was recognising the writing on
9 the wall, which you have given. Then -- but you were going to then
10 explain -- beyond that explain why this decision was adopted by the
11 Bosnian Serbs at this point.
12 A. Yes. During the distributions from the 10th until the 14th of
13 October, Serb MPs were saying that it was the position of the entire Serb
14 people in Bosnia that they wished to stay in Yugoslavia, even a re-shaped
15 one. And both in the Assembly and outside, they were being told that you
16 don't really have a mandate because many Serbs are speaking up and saying
17 something different, saying that they wanted an independent Bosnia. Your
18 decision, such a decision, would be valid only if confirmed by a
19 plebiscite of Serbian people.
20 That is why we wrote it this way because the volition of those
21 Serb lands elsewhere had already been clearly expressed, those Serb lands
22 that would later become UNPAs, and Serbs in other areas of Yugoslavia. We
23 couldn't include Macedonia, but we included all the others that we could
24 with the proviso that they had to confirm by referendum that it was indeed
25 their desire to stay within Yugoslavia.
1 Q. And then if we go on -- I hope we're going to find a number 5 in
2 the margin very soon, Mr. Krajisnik. And even better, if against
3 number 5, top of page 27 of the English, we find in the text
4 number 1: "This decision regulates the authorisations ..."
5 Do we have that?
6 A. Yes, I found it.
7 Q. Good. And it's all under a heading a few lines
8 earlier: "Decision on granting the authorisation to represent the Serbian
9 people of Bosnia and Herzegovina," and that's what it says again in
10 number 1.
11 And then number 2: "The following are hereby authorised to
12 represent and protect the interests of the Serbian people in Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina as an item of this decision: Nikola Koljevic to participate
14 in the work of the Peace Conference on Yugoslavia in The Hague."
15 And that -- Professor Koljevic was at that time still a member of
16 the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, wasn't he? Yes?
17 Q. And that peace conference -- these peace conferences change their
18 names and the locations all over the place. But for practical purposes,
19 it was a conference under the auspices of the -- or the aegis, perhaps is
20 a better word, of Lord Carrington. Correct?
21 A. Yes. We called it The Hague Conference. It was later followed by
22 the London Conference, but it was actually The Hague Conference led by
23 Lord Carrington.
24 Q. And then it goes on: "And Biljana Plavsic to keep contacts with
25 the representatives of other international organisations and
2 Now that phrase "international organisations and institutions"
3 covers a multitude of sins, Mr. Krajisnik, but what -- can you say what
4 were the main or the significant organisations that were contemplated
5 there with whom Mrs. Plavsic was to keep contact?
6 A. Since Bosnia and Herzegovina was going through a crisis, various
7 international organisations were visiting on a regular basis. You know
8 that there was Mr. Cyrus Vance, Mr. Cutileiro, Mr. Wijnaendts, the
9 International Red Cross, UNHCR, many other agencies and personalities were
10 involved, including ambassadors, et cetera. They came regularly to
11 Bosnia, to Sarajevo, so we were informing Mrs. Plavsic that she should
12 formulate our interests in the talks with those agencies and
13 personalities, not leave it to Alija Izetbegovic.
14 Q. And is it correct that Mrs. Plavsic had no -- though being the
15 contact person with the international organisations, played no significant
16 role in the peace negotiations?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And then we see that Mr. Milutin Najdanovic was to be the person
19 to deal with the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia parliament;
20 Dr. Karadzic with that republic's Presidency; and then you say something
21 laudatory about Mr. Karadzic; and then Mr. Simovic is to have contacts
22 with the Federal Executive Council. Dr. Karadzic we've heard of.
23 Mr. Najdanovic, did he have any other position in the SDS at that time?
24 A. Late Milutin Najdanovic was an MP of Bosnia and Herzegovina to the
25 Federal Assembly. We delegated our MPs from Bosnia and Herzegovina to the
1 Federal Assembly, and he was one of them. There were four Serbs
2 represented in the -- representing Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Federal
3 Assembly, so he was representing the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina in
4 the Federal Assembly.
5 Q. But he was being appointed here to represent the interests of
6 Bosnian Serbs in the Federal Assembly. Correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And Mr. Simovic, he was also, was he, a deputy in the Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina Assembly?
10 A. Mr. Simovic was deputy Prime Minister of Bosnia and Herzegovina
11 and at the same time chairman of the ministerial council. That's why he
12 was nominated to represent Bosnian Serbs and to establish a direct link
13 with the federal government of Yugoslavia.
14 Q. And if we turn on then, Mr. Krajisnik, to where you should find
15 the marginal number 6, which in the English is at the top of page 31.
16 A. I got it.
17 Q. And Mr. Cancar -- Petko Cancar has been invited to present this
18 item for the scheduling and organisation of the proposed plebiscite. The
19 question is set out in number 2 there: "In the plebiscite, the Serbian
20 people will answer the question: 'Do you agree with the decision of the
21 Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 24th October
22 1991, that the Serbian people should stay in a joint state with,'" and
23 it's the same as we saw before, "Serbia, Montenegro, SAO Krajina,
24 SAO Slavonia, Baranja, West Srem, and all the others who decide to stay.'"
25 And the date was fixed at the 10th of November, 1991. And,
1 Mr. Krajisnik, that's in fact when it happened, on the -- well, on the 9th
2 and 10th, over two days, didn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then at page 39 of the English, it is -- Mr. Krajisnik, it's
5 item 7, so it's quite a few pages on -- when I say "item 7," it's your
6 marginal note 7, probably half a dozen or more pages on. Do you see
7 that? It will be confusing if I say "item 7," because actually in the
8 text it's right against what is described as item 8. So you've got your
9 number 7 in the margin. It says item 8 in the text, just to keep us on
10 your toes?
11 A. I found it.
12 Q. "Guests welcome speeches."
13 Mr. Krajisnik, we -- and this is readily checkable, but we've been
14 able to get from another document that -- that that is Mr. Brdjanin
15 speaking here: "I want to move this item without an introduction to
17 And then: "Dr. President, colleagues and guests," it's
18 Mr. Brdjanin, and he -- some introductory words.
19 And then over the page he says: "Furthermore, as for the
20 plebiscite to be held on 9th and 10th November, I would like to take this
21 opportunity to say that a rally has been scheduled to take place in our
22 town of Drvar, starting at 1400 hours where our entire elite including
23 Mr. Karadzic and others will be present. In Banja Luka a rally will take
24 place," so he's announcing that.
25 But let me just skip, if I may, a couple of sentences. He
1 says: "As a matter of fact, those who think that Yugoslavia should
2 survive are going to come. Those of us here today must say, loud and
3 clear, that we also support the Yugoslav People's Army to carry out their
4 constitutional duties unobstructed, and, as a Serbian Assembly, we must
5 promise to let them carry their constitutional duties.
6 "What does that mean?
7 "No one has the right to call the mobilisation of Yugoslavia's
8 official army, the people's army, private. Therefore, we must say here
9 that we support the mobilisation unconditionally. Why do I say that? Our
10 great leader, and I will not say his name, said that this is not the time
11 of truth, but unfortunately, those who are weaker think that it is the
12 time of force."
13 Mr. Krajisnik, who -- do you -- can you say who was the great
14 leader whose name Mr. Brdjanin could not bring himself to say?
15 A. I really don't know. I really have no idea who he meant.
16 Q. And then he says: "We want the peace in this country" -- can I
17 invite you to read this sentence, Mr. Krajisnik, because we may have a
18 hitch in the English translation. So do you see the next sentence: "We
19 want the peace in this country," could I invite you to read the next
20 couple of sentences from your own language version. Out loud I mean, of
22 A. "We want peace in this country. We don't want borders with
23 anyone, but those who think they can lead us out by force, we have to be
24 ready to prevent that. If, as our people -- I want to say -- or rather,
25 if it should be necessary, God forbid, the sooner this challenge is picked
1 up the sooner the peace will be signed."
2 THE INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please pick up the previous
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you're invited to go back one sentence
5 and to repeat. And perhaps it's the mistake we all make, that while
6 reading it always goes too quickly. Could you go one sentence back and
7 read it again?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
9 "Today a dream has come true, a dream that had been ascribed to me
10 in the pre-election campaign. People often told me that I said in jest,
11 although I meant it seriously, that Krajina is the west of Serbia. And I
12 explained it this way: It's not possible that people are so ignorant
13 about geography to think that we are in the west, and that's why we have
14 to set our western borders in a way that suits the Serbian people but
15 without prejudice to any other people.
16 "That's all I wanted to say. Thank you very much.
17 "And good luck to you all."
18 This was not written very grammatically and so it was rather
19 difficult. It reads with difficulty.
20 MR. STEWART:
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.
22 Now, Mr. Brdjanin, did he have any central role in the SDS at that
24 A. He had no role, apart from being a deputy in the Assembly, and I
25 don't think that he belonged to any of the structures of the SDS either.
1 As far as I can remember. At any rate, he was not an important figure,
2 for sure, if I can put it that way.
3 Q. Who was the -- I won't say the next speaker because that's
4 Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, but the one after that immediately, Mr. Stanko
5 Cvijan, if that's anywhere near the correct pronunciation. Do you see
6 that, Mr. Krajisnik? There's about three or four lines from you and then
7 a Mr. Stanko Cvijan. Who was he?
8 A. In the government of Serbia there was a ministry for Serbs outside
9 Serbia, and he was minister in the ministry for Serbs outside Serbia and
10 he attended our Assembly as a guest.
11 Q. And then if we go on then -- I'm not going to dwell on point 8, as
12 it came up in the margin. But if we could go on about four -- about
13 three, four pages, it's actually not a -- there isn't a number in the
14 margin, but do you see the name Mr. Dragan Kalinic comes up for the first
15 time as a speaker. Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik?
16 MR. STEWART: It's at the top of page 47, Your Honours, in the
18 Q. Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. And who was Mr. Kalinic?
21 A. Mr. Kalinic was a deputy in the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina
22 on behalf of the Party of Reformist Forces that was headed by Mr. Nenad
23 Kecmanovic in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And he joined the Serb Assembly because
24 he was an ethnic Serb, and he took part in the debate here as an MP who
25 was an equitable member of the Assembly of the Serb people in
2 Q. And he --
3 MR. STEWART: Again, Your Honours, perhaps I just ask for his
4 introductory 20 or 30 lines to be noted, and then pick it up --
5 Q. Near to what will be number 9 in the margin of your copy,
6 Mr. Krajisnik.
7 MR. STEWART: And, Your Honours, that's on page 48 of the English
9 Q. And four lines down, actually, on page 48 there's a reference to
10 the SDA and the HDZ, and the sentence begins: "With this act of
11 establishing an Assembly."
12 Do you see that sentence, Mr. Krajisnik?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. He says: "With this act of establishing an Assembly which will
15 represent the interests of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina,
16 we are today entering a new political reality of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
17 which we have been unable to do through the Council for National Equality
18 and the Chamber of Nationalities on whose establishment we could not
19 agree. The Muslim and the Croatian people have the next move and they
20 will know to choose what suits their interests best. And no Serbian vote
21 should and has the right" -- must be voter, I suggest. "And no Serbian
22 voter should and has the right to be against it."
23 Mr. Krajisnik, when Mr. Kalinic was saying: "The Muslim and the
24 Croatian people have the next move," was that -- was it your view that the
25 next move was in the hands of the Muslim and Croatian people?
1 A. Well, I would like to explain this in the following way. He meant
2 that we had opted for this path in order to protect our interests
3 because -- let me put it this way. We have -- we did not really have a
4 Council for National Equality, to protect national interests, so we did
5 this in order to protect our interests. And now it is up to you to make
6 your own decision in terms of establishing a body that would protect your
7 interests. Of course, that's not a good thing; it's better if we all
8 reach agreement. But what he said was: Well, this is what we did and now
9 it is for you to resolve your problems, because sometimes your interests
10 will have to be protected in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'm
11 sorry. The Assembly only had the task to meet and debate at that moment
12 on the vital interests of the Serb people.
13 There was a decision that all officials from the ranks of the Serb
14 people from the SDS and others should remain in their positions in the
15 Bosnian and Herzegovinian government. No one had withdrawn, and they were
16 not there to discuss anything else but vital national interests.
17 Q. And where -- so where Mr. Kalinic was saying: "If they make a
18 similar move," did you understand what he had in mind by "a similar move"?
19 A. Well, this is a positive approach by Mr. Kalinic. He said that if
20 they do something similar, and if they establish some council of nations
21 of their own or some Assembly of their own to defend their interests we
22 should respect that. Because at any rate we do not have the right to hold
23 against others what we had done ourselves. It's not that one people has
24 an exclusive right to something. All three peoples have the same rights
25 as far as these very sensitive matters are concerned.
1 Q. And then we have quite shortly after that at number 10 in your
2 marginal notes, we have Mr. Koljevic speaking.
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, I'm not going to dwell on that again,
4 but I -- given Mr. Koljevic's quite significant position, I'd ask Your
5 Honours to note that contribution from Professor Koljevic, Plato rather
6 than Shakespeare in that particular instance.
7 Q. And then at marginal note 11 but towards the end. Well, perhaps
8 it isn't that near to the end of what Professor Koljevic is saying. He
9 says -- top of page 53 of the English: "It is up to all the patriots who
10 cannot accept that Yugoslavia becomes such a toy."
11 Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik? Top of page 53 in the English.
12 It's a new paragraph. It's quite a long paragraph. "It is up to all the
13 patriots who cannot accept that Yugoslavia becomes such a toy."
14 Do you ...
15 A. Could you please read it out and then I can give my own comments.
16 I don't even have to find it in the text. I can't find it. I should be
17 able to find the word "Yugoslavia," but I really can't find my way here.
18 Perhaps there's --
19 Q. I'll tell you what you might see, Mr. Krajisnik. You might see
20 the figure of 500.000 somewhere around the middle of a quite long
21 paragraph. If that figure jumps off the page to you, that will be the
22 right paragraph. If it doesn't, it doesn't. It's --
23 I'll carry on, shall I, Mr. Krajisnik? Have a look for the figure
24 500.000 while you're --
25 A. 12/1 -- oh, just a moment, please.
1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I should say I do feel some of this is
2 the -- what I know to be the indirect pressures on all concerned of the
3 very large numbers of Defence teams involved in the cases which have
4 started this week. Your Honour, where that's another matter perhaps we'll
5 take up in other quarters, but my apologies, Your Honour, but it's not
6 going quite as smoothly as it has done.
7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to carry on with this paragraph you've
8 invited me to read.
9 "It is up to all the patriots who cannot accept that Yugoslavia
10 becomes such a toy to take this moment and from withdrawing in defence of
11 what is disappearing, shift to a constructive action of creating a new
12 Yugoslavia. I see this Assembly, just like those moves we took yesterday
13 in the Presidency of Yugoslavia at the consultations for the change, as a
14 Copernican turn to stop the negative trend of disintegration and start
15 creating a new Yugoslavia which suits us and in which the Serbian people
16 will congregate as much as they can. I would like to remind those who are
17 telling you that Serbs are maniacs who want every Serb to live in one
18 country, that in Croatia alone about 500.000 Serbs will stay in Zagreb and
19 other towns even when we assemble this state. Therefore" --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please read slower. Thank
22 MR. STEWART: My apologies, I will.
23 Q. "Therefore, we are achieving our objective within our abilities,
24 making sure that something is left for the others, as they should not be
25 stripped of their rights. No one has the right to ridicule such an
1 objective of the Serbian people. Of course, our doors are open to the
2 others, although I could quote my faithful fellow sufferer and fellow
3 traveller Biljana Plavsic: Living with Serbs is wonderful, but God it is
4 difficult to wage war with them.
5 "I have adopted this thought of [yours]."
6 Mr. Krajisnik, were you comfortable to associate yourself and
7 would you have associated yourself with those words of Professor Koljevic?
8 A. Well, the late Nikola Koljevic was a poetic soul and he knew how
9 to speak so beautifully. This was a moment when emotions came to the
10 fore. He, quite simply, quoted Mrs. Plavsic here and she was a lot more
11 radical. I'm referring to this last bit.
12 But as for his vision of Yugoslavia, when he referred to that he
13 said, intentionally, implicitly, that we do not accept that someone is
14 telling us that we are trying to create a Greater Serbia and to try to
15 take some lands that do not belong to the Serbs. He was saying -- or
16 rather, Your Honours, at that moment we were deluded. We thought that a
17 new Yugoslavia would not be established, that is to say, it -- consisting
18 of Serbia and Montenegro. Only we thought that our right to remain in
19 Yugoslavia was stronger than the right of those who wanted to secede. But
20 then we realised that Yugoslavia was established, a new one, and we were
21 just left there.
22 So Mr. Koljevic said at that moment that all of us who want to
23 keep Yugoslavia want to remain in a re-shaped Yugoslavia and the door is
24 open to all of those who want to remain in a state that is internationally
25 recognised. And then at this last point he quoted Mrs. Plavsic -- well,
1 that was sort of icing on the cake, but he did not want to make a
2 belligerent statement, especially coming from him. Even if he had said
3 it, nobody would have taken it that way.
4 I am trying to speak slowly, but if the interpreters think I speak
5 too fast, then I am really going to slow down because I want to make their
6 job easier.
7 MR. STEWART: They usually tell us --
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that it is very fast, and
9 for the accuracy of the transcript it would be good if the speaker spoke
10 slower. Thank you.
11 MR. STEWART: Your invitation has been taken up, Mr. Krajisnik.
12 Thank you.
13 Your Honour, there's a tiny linguistic point, it did occur to me
14 Your Honours' colleagues might have been entitled to smile at yours and my
15 attempt to dredge up our Latin from many years ago from -- given their
17 But, Your Honour, here the phrase "fellow traveller," in English
18 that does have a distinct connotation of communism.
19 Q. I just want to clarify it's the -- what appears in the text, and
20 perhaps either you or the interpreters can confirm this, Mr. Krajisnik.
21 What appears in the English text is "fellow traveller." It doesn't have
22 any implication of being a communist here, does it? Just it does in
24 A. No, no. Perhaps it would be best if I were to explain this.
25 We have these two very similar words, "sapatnik" and
1 "saputnik." "Saputnik" is someone that you travel with, a travelling
2 companion; and a "sapatnik" is a fellow sufferer. So then they were
3 together on the Presidency, and they were fellow sufferers. It was hard.
4 She said: He is my "sapatnik," fellow sufferer, because we are struggling
5 together in the Presidency on behalf of the Serb people because we are a
7 These are very similar words, words that sound very similar but
8 that are different, and all the interpreters know that. I think that this
9 says "sapatnik" --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Fellow sufferer, notes the interpreter.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But no, it says "sapatnik" and
12 "saputnik," so it's both I see.
13 MR. STEWART:
14 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, that deals with the point. Thank you.
15 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, would this be a suitable moment for a
17 JUDGE ORIE: It is, Mr. Stewart. Before I adjourn for 25 minutes
18 and announce that we'll resume at a quarter past 4.00.
19 Mr. Krajisnik, the passage Mr. Stewart was drawing your attention
20 to is found on the page which bears the number 12/2, or the ERN number,
21 last three digitals 837, to get you on track again.
22 MR. STEWART: That's most helpful, Your Honour. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until quarter past 4.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you're invited to proceed.
2 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. Were Your Honours going
3 to --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, yes, I still owe Mr. Krajisnik --
5 Mr. Krajisnik, you've requested to speak with counsel on the
6 subject of reports in the media on your testimony which you consider to be
7 unfair in order to see whether or not to address the matter, either
8 through Mr. Stewart or either by yourself. That is the subject on which
9 the Chamber gives you permission to speak with Mr. Stewart during the next
10 break. We have assumed that, to start with, 15 minutes would be
11 approximately what might be needed. So during the next break you have an
12 opportunity to consult -- and you can speak about it with counsel. It's
13 not free to speak with other team members. I take it that you wanted to
14 speak with Mr. Stewart and/or Mr. Josse. So that's the limitation. Not
15 everyone in the Defence -- well, Mr. Sladojevic, in the presence of
16 Mr. Stewart would be no problem.
17 MR. STEWART: That's understood, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's not a general permission for whoever
19 supports and who is on the list of the -- it's limited to --
20 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- the Defence team.
22 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. That's the way we
23 would have understood it, and it's helpful to have that confirmation.
24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, the number 12 in the margin should be very shortly
25 after number 11.
1 MR. STEWART: It's at the foot of page 53 of the English. Your
2 Honour, I've been invited to go more slowly so Your Honours may notice
3 that I'm going to try and do that.
4 Q. It's the paragraph beginning: "When the laws fail us, we must not
5 succumb to lawlessness, instead we must create new laws from scratch."
6 Do you see that paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Thank you. "That is how I understand the creation of this
9 Serbian Assembly which was created to defend and legalise the natural
10 rights of a people and not deprive anyone else of their rights."
11 At this stage, Mr. Krajisnik, nine days or so after the crisis in
12 the parliament, this first meeting of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, did you
13 already have it in mind that the Assembly would pass laws in the
14 conventional form, statutes, codified laws, would have a constitution.
15 Was this already part of the conception of this Assembly at this point?
16 [French on English channel].
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Assembly had a single mandate --
18 and it had to do with vital national interests.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We have a problem with French and English mix-up at
20 this moment, so I don't know whether the --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Do you hear the English booth now without any --
22 JUDGE ORIE: [French phrase spoken].
23 Please proceed --
24 [French on English channel].
25 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Perhaps you could start again, Mr. Krajisnik. We had a linguistic
3 [French on English channel].
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Response to your question --
5 JUDGE ORIE: It happened frequently now. Usually the first three
6 or four words are in French and then it switches to --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Is it just the English channel now? There seem
8 to be interferences, I see, on the --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now I hear English only.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Do you only hear English now, yeah.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, there seems to be a technical --
12 let's try slowly to re-start and see whether -- could I ask Judge Hanoteau
13 to listen carefully to the French channel to see whether there's any
14 English on that and let's then can proceed.
15 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's one of those rare areas where our
16 resources are greater than the Prosecutions, so any objection is likely to
17 come from them.
18 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, shall we start again, please, on that. I'll give
19 you the question. Did you all -- the end of my question.
20 Did you already have it in mind that the Assembly would pass laws
21 in the conventional law, statute, codified laws, would have a
22 constitution? Was that already part of the conception of this Assembly at
23 that point?
24 A. Absolutely not. That's what I said in one of my previous answers
25 a few moments ago. The mandate of the Assembly was -- well, rather, the
1 deputies would stay in the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and then as
2 far as national interests are concerned this Assembly would meet and
3 resolve these vital issues that there was no other way of resolving.
4 There was no Council for the Equality of National Rights or any other
5 body, and at that moment that's what the mandate was of the Assembly of
6 the Serb people in the Assembly in Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was the
7 name of the Assembly then.
8 Q. And then the speaker, Professor Koljevic, at the next paragraph he
9 said: "Let me say just two more things, two and a half, rather. As for
10 our first decision regarding the plebiscite, there is often some talk in
11 this town, and there was some yesterday, how the SDS does not represent
12 the Serbian people. That is the SDS that won 90 per cent, more than 90
13 per cent of votes. Our former partners may think that they would have an
14 easier time with some other Serbs. We are not afraid of the check of our
15 Serbdom, but we rather hope for it after this year of our political work.
16 The plebiscite will be the right answer to all those talks about whether
17 or not we represent the Serbs - it is now up to the people to say."
18 Mr. Krajisnik, at this time in late October 1991, did you have any
19 doubts as to whether the SDS represented the views of the Serbian people
20 of Bosnia?
21 A. We, the SDS, firmly believed that we represented the interests of
22 the Serb people. However, there were discussions by the other side that
23 brought that into question and blamed the SDS by saying: You do not have
24 the right to say that on behalf of all the Serbs. And this is what
25 Mr. Koljevic is saying.
1 Now if you remember, I said before this break that in this
2 intermezzo, between the 14th and the 24th, when we had different
3 discussions, and we were trying to find a solution, we were being told:
4 You're not the only ones. There are many Serbs who are calling us by
5 phone and who are in favour of independent states. So what you're saying
6 is not the opinion of the Serb people.
7 Q. And then if we go on, it's page 67 in the English. It's marginal
8 note 13 on your copy, Mr. Krajisnik. And it should be directly against
9 your own name, just after Mr. Nedic has been talking.
10 A. That's the last page that I have here. Please go ahead. I found
12 Q. Thank you.
13 "Ladies and gentlemen.
14 "Today we got our Assembly. The Assembly got its opposition and I
15 hope that we have got some healthy representatives of the Serbian people
16 to protect the Serbian people, deliver their will and implement it in this
18 "Before I close this first session of the Assembly," and you gave
19 some thanks. And then you -- well, it's easier just to read it through.
20 "Before I close this first session of the Assembly of the Serbian
21 People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I would like to thank you for taking
22 part in its work and ask you to be the fitting interpreters of the goals
23 and tasks of this Assembly, to fight for the constitutional and legal
24 rights and for the preservation of peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina, to be
25 actively engaged in fulfilling the main objective, not only for the
1 Serbians, but for all the honest peoples and citizens too, to keep a
2 common state which will be a true state, established in a democratic
3 fashion and which her citizens will feel as their own. That would be a
4 state with which all those people who wish to live together will join and
5 where all the citizens will feel free and happy. To all the citizens of
6 Yugoslavia, I wish the war to stop and the peace to come into every home,
7 that the perpetrators of war be punished and that each people remain in
8 Yugoslavia, depending on their choice of state."
9 Mr. Krajisnik, the -- the only war - I'm not suggesting it wasn't
10 more than enough - but the only war that was currently going on at that
11 time was the Croatian war, wasn't it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. At the end of this first meeting of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, was
14 there, so far as you can say, among those who attended that Assembly, was
15 there satisfaction, dissatisfaction with the meeting and its outcome?
16 What was the overall tone of the reaction of those present?
17 A. Well, the overall tone was that everybody was happy to all
18 appearances. But I have to say for truth's sake that when something like
19 this is created there is an aftertaste of misgivings rising from the
20 knowledge that the other two sides are against it. You feel the pleasure
21 that you normally feel when you do something that you believe is right and
22 that you really want to do but that you had to win through struggle, that
23 you had to fight for. So all those present expressed outwardly their
24 satisfaction, but still inside they felt anxiety, knowing that it was a
25 unilateral decision, just like the decisions that the other parties had
1 taken earlier.
2 I don't know if I managed to explain properly the prevailing
3 atmosphere, but also the -- the -- the feelings that they kept to
4 themselves. It was a forced move, if I can put it that way, and that's
5 why it left an aftertaste of anxiety.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.
7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it looks as if Mr. Mujanovic has
8 achieved perfect timing with the production of the material. Your Honour,
9 may I just take one second just to sort out the logistics.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I have three copies of the B/C/S
12 version marked up in the usual way with numbers. So one for Mr. Krajisnik
13 and then two available for the booth. Your Honours, what we don't have,
14 I'm afraid, in relation to this is the hard copy of the English.
15 Your Honour, could I --
16 JUDGE ORIE: What are we talking about?
17 MR. STEWART: I'm so sorry, Your Honour. We're moving -- remiss
18 of me. We're moving to the next Assembly session, I beg your pardon, the
19 second session --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could Mr. Registrar tell us -- that would be the
21 second then?
22 MR. STEWART: Yes, the 21st of November, 1991. The exhibit number
23 is 64A, 23 -- folder 23, tab 633. Your Honour, we -- we notified these
24 matters, as I understand, earlier in the day.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Although that message might not have come to us, we
1 have a copy now available and on the computer we have one as well.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I hope we're right,
4 Your Honour, that the procedure for us is to give notification in that
5 way. When something's already been exhibited, we give that specific
6 notification and that's what's required. That's the procedure, is it not?
7 JUDGE ORIE: It is -- no. Is it 633? No. I make a mistake. I'm
8 sorry. I'll find my copy.
9 MR. STEWART: Yes. Binder -- yes --
10 JUDGE ORIE: No, tab --
11 MR. STEWART: P64A, binder 23, tab 633 is what we have, Your
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. I'll find it.
14 MR. STEWART: Thank you.
15 Q. And, Mr. Krajisnik, you have the margin-numbered version. So can
16 we go to number 2 in the margin?
17 MR. STEWART: It's page 7 of the English, Your Honours.
18 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, it's --
19 MR. STEWART: There's a concern it's not marked with the numbers,
20 but we feel confident it is actually.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This copy was probably given to
23 someone else by mistake, the copy you mean. But I'll find the passages
24 that you want. I just don't have those numbers on the margin. I see page
25 number 7.
1 MR. STEWART: It probably repays the investment of time,
2 Mr. Krajisnik, to just sort this out. May I -- may I retrieve that for a
3 moment and then ...
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, sorry, the dog ate my homework is often
6 an excuse that children use. The photocopier ate the last copy with the
7 numbers on, Your Honour; that's what happened in this case. I hadn't
8 appreciated -- my apologies, I hadn't appreciated the three copies I gave
9 were not exactly the same, because I didn't know there had been that
10 photocopier eating.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll find our way through it.
12 MR. STEWART: Well, Mr. Krajisnik's copy needs to be swapped over,
13 Your Honour, because, with respect to the interpreters, and my apologies,
14 it is Mr. Krajisnik who most importantly should have the properly numbered
15 version. Thank you.
16 Your Honours have been handed a dauntingly chunky pile of papers
18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll manage.
19 MR. STEWART: I'm sure you will as Your Honours do.
20 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, can you find number 2? I don't -- as far as
21 number 1 is concerned, you can ignore that if it's indeed there.
22 MR. STEWART: But number 2, it's at page 7 of the English, Your
23 Honour, towards the bottom of that page Mr. Krajisnik is talking.
24 Q. Again, Mr. Krajisnik, your name should appear opposite the
25 number 2. Does it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. And you say: "Ladies and gentlemen, I'm convinced
3 that these are crucial times for the survival of the Serbian people in
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina and I would dare say even more broadly when it
5 comes to the Serbian people as such. Not all of us, however, seem to be
6 aware of this fact; however -- hence what we are doing seems normal and
7 everyday to us. Those who are not aware of their role and the things they
8 are creating should not be criticised but reminded. That is why,
9 gentlemen, I remind you, too, you are the creators of the new history of
10 the Serbian people and not only of Serbian history but of the history of
11 all peoples who live in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Yugoslavia and who want
12 to preserve the state."
13 MR. STEWART: But, Your Honours, I don't want to take time on this
14 next bit, but merely draw Your Honours' attention to the fact this is
15 Mr. Krajisnik's contribution at this stage of the discussion.
16 Q. And then if we can go on to beyond -- you should see marginal
17 note 3 following within about a page, page 9 of the English. "This
18 message will never be rendered worthless" is against 3.
19 And you say -- not that long paragraph but then -- which I invite
20 to be noted but then the next shortish paragraph you say: "It is normal
21 and in the Serbian democratic tradition, once we created the Assembly of
22 the Serbian people of BH, then we had to be aware - and we were - that the
23 Assembly of the Serbian people of BH came with our own opposition in the
24 same chamber.
25 "I will not praise them too much since they are the opposition -
1 big political opponents to us in government - but on behalf of the Serbian
2 people and myself, I would like to thank them for their work!"
3 Now, there had in the previous Assembly session been some
4 reference to opposition.
5 Mr. Krajisnik, what was the nature and extent of what you are
6 referring to there as the opposition within this Serb Assembly?
7 A. There were MPs of the Serbian Democratic Party and one or two MPs
8 from the Serbian Renewal Movement within Bosnia-Herzegovina. They formed
9 one club. And in this meaning they represented the ruling parties,
10 whereas the opposition were MPs from other parties, from the reformist
11 party, from the League of Communists, and -- I don't know the names of all
12 of them. They were from various parties and members of this Assembly.
13 Q. And was the position that all Serbs who had been deputies in the
14 Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly were automatically invited to become
15 members of the Serb Assembly?
16 A. Well, the word "invited" may not be the most appropriate, the most
17 adequate, but the door was open to all to participate in that Assembly
18 because they, too, were Serbs and they had the right to have a say when
19 vital interests were decided upon. They had the right for their voice to
20 be heard and be taken into account. Some joined even a year after the
21 Assembly was established.
22 So the door was opened to every Serb in the Assembly of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina to join this Assembly which decided on the vital interests of
24 the Serbian people whenever such issues came on the agenda.
25 Q. And that was at that point a qualification as well, was it? You
1 had to have been or to be a deputy in the Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly
2 to have the right to attend and participate in the new Bosnian Serb
3 Assembly, did you?
4 A. Yes, that's correct. Later on during my testimony we will come to
5 the stage when they wanted to introduce some new representatives into the
6 Assembly, but that failed. All Serbs, and only Serbs, in the Assembly of
7 Bosnia and Herzegovina were entitled to become members of the Serbian
8 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or the Assembly of the Serbian people
9 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 Q. Now, you say in that paragraph where you say you won't praise them
11 too much since they're the opposition. And then you say: "Big political
12 opponents to us in government."
13 Were there sharp differences of view between the SDS and members
14 of other parties at that stage?
15 A. At that stage there were no major differences, only in terms of
16 shades, but that was negligible.
17 Q. Now, if you go on, it may be over the page, it may be just about a
18 page on in the same page. In the English it's towards the top of page 10
19 against the line: "We should destroy the bureaucratic approach of the
20 centralised economic power."
21 Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik?
22 A. I found it.
23 Q. And then you say: "We have a duty to place every citizen in a
24 state of dependency to make his spending dependent on his income. It is
25 our duty to prevent the outflow of money and unjustified appropriation.
1 It is our goal to decentralise all republican funds, to keep most of the
2 income of citizens and legal entities in their municipalities, regions,
3 and autonomous districts, so that only limited contributions are paid to
4 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
5 Just pausing there. When you referred to "the duty to prevent the
6 outflow of money and unjustified appropriation," what had you in mind by
7 your reference to "unjustified appropriation"?
8 A. I was saying this as an economist, as a trained economist. Bosnia
9 and Herzegovina is an underdeveloped country, and in this underdeveloped
10 country the little resources that were available were all centralised in
11 Sarajevo, where I lived, whereas the periphery, the other provinces, were
12 neglected which gave rise to a certain animosity towards Sarajevo. So our
13 commitment was to decentralisation of those funds in order to develop
14 roads, infrastructure, et cetera, so that the entire Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina would be developed, leaving just a modest amount of resources
16 for the central powers in Sarajevo.
17 It is absolutely not okay to give all resources to the centre. I
18 believe that every state should be polycentric instead of creating this
19 state with a huge head and an underdeveloped body. The entire state is
20 populated, not only the centre; and in today's Bosnia and Herzegovina this
21 is being translated into practice. There are various cantons that are
22 being developed more or less evenly; however, it's year 2006 now.
23 Q. Yes. Well, there we were here in 1991, Mr. Krajisnik. The next
24 paragraph: "We have a duty to determine the function of regions and
25 autonomous districts with a view to preserving the unity of the Serbian
1 people in Bosnia and Herzegovina. That is why we should not allow regions
2 to become independent entities, separate from the rest of the Serbian
3 people. It is essential that the Serbian people organisation themselves
4 into one legal and state entity, one common state with all the other
5 peoples who want to build a happier future with us, and gentlemen, you
6 know this but I would just like to emphasise it this time."
7 Mr. Krajisnik, at that point in time in referring to "one legal
8 and state entity, one common state with all the other peoples," what did
9 you have in mind?
10 A. This was at a time when we had just endorsed the reports of the
11 plebiscite, and we had found -- we had received no positive answer
12 concerning an agreement from the other two sides and we wanted to meet
13 with them and seek a solution because we were clear. Autonomous regions
14 should not transmute into sociopolitical communities, into small states,
15 because our region had 50 per cent of all Serbs in Bosnia. The other
16 50 per cent or even 60 were dispersed across other regions. We wanted to
17 create a state in which every Serb in this case, but normally every
18 citizen, would be able to exercise, to pursue, his interests. We did not
19 want to please only the Serbian people but to find a solution that would
20 be compatible with the interests of other peoples as well, and that was
21 our purpose here.
22 We knew that we cannot do anything unilaterally. We made an
23 overture to the other two sides, saying that we should adopt a
24 constitution for a Bosnia and Herzegovina that would remain in Yugoslavia
25 and would be acceptable to all of us. And that would very soon become
1 evident once the negotiations start; our position there would be very
3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, when the phrase there "one legal and state entity,
4 essential that the Serbian people organise themselves into one legal and
5 state entity," were you talking there about an entity that would be
6 recognised as you were accepting was going to happen in the case of
7 Slovenia and Croatia, that would be recognised internationally as a
8 separate, independent, sovereign state?
9 A. Absolutely not. At that time we only wanted to rule ourselves
10 within Bosnia and Herzegovina. We didn't want the will of others to be
11 imposed on us. We wanted to stay within Yugoslavia at the time, but that
12 option was very soon afterwards foreclosed because Serbia and Montenegro
13 announced their intention to form a new state comprising only these two
15 Q. So by your reference there to "one legal and state entity," what
16 were you contemplating as the territorial extent of that entity?
17 A. That would later become evident in our decisions. The regions had
18 been established, as I explained yesterday, by the declaration of the will
19 of municipalities. At one point we discussed genocide, et cetera, that's
20 one of the issues here. But leaving that aside, we -- we wanted to form
21 Bosnia and Herzegovina in such a way as to create an entity for Muslims in
22 areas where Muslims were in the majority, a Serbian entity with Serbs in
23 the majority, et cetera.
24 There was no mention of any moves of population. We planned to
25 base our entities on their 1971 census or perhaps a later census, to
1 derive from that information in which areas certain ethnic communities had
2 an absolute majority. But at that time it was already known that a new
3 Yugoslavia would consist only of Serbia and Montenegro.
4 Q. Yes, Mr. Krajisnik, the -- in asking you specifically what you
5 were contemplating as the territorial extent of that entity, and you said
6 that would later become evident, one aspect of that question is this:
7 Did you contemplate at that time that the one legal and state entity into
8 which the Serbian people would organise themselves was -- would lie
9 entirely within the borders of what at this time was Bosnia and
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. Did you also contemplate that it would be less than the whole
13 extent of what at this time was Bosnia and Herzegovina?
14 A. I'm afraid I didn't quite understand the question. Maybe I didn't
15 understand the interpretation.
16 Q. First of all, to be clear, Mr. Krajisnik. So you're talking about
17 one legal and state entity into which the Serbian people are to organise
18 themselves. You've just said a moment ago you were not contemplating an
19 entity whose territory went anywhere outside the then-existing borders of
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina. So the next question then is: Were you
21 contemplating an entity which was less than the whole extent of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina as it was at this date, 21st November?
23 A. Well, that entity was certainly supposed to be smaller than Bosnia
24 and Herzegovina, if I understood your question correctly. The Serbian
25 entity was supposed to be much smaller than Bosnia and Herzegovina.
1 Q. Yes --
2 A. I'm not quite sure I understood your question.
3 Q. No, you have answered --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, doesn't that necessarily follow from one
5 of the earlier answers where Mr. Krajisnik said that they would have an
6 entity for those parts where the Muslims were in the majority, and a Serb
7 entity where the Serbs were in the majority, which, if you exclude any
8 foreign territory, would - at least from what my logic tells me - would
9 necessarily mean that it would be more limited than the whole of the
10 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, absolutely, my logic is the same as
12 your logic, Your Honour, but I'm not the witness. And Your Honour,
13 what --
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, but --
15 MR. STEWART: It may seem oversimplistic to Your Honour, but I'm
16 trying to lay the clearest possible foundation for what I'm then about to
17 ask in relation to the next point. And if it's too clear and is too
18 simple, Your Honour, then my apologies. But my logic is no different from
19 Your Honours', but I've just always felt that erring on the side of having
20 it crystal clear is better. That's all. If I've misjudged it, Your
21 Honour, I've misjudged it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was crystal clear already to us.
23 Please proceed.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry, may I?
25 There are two overlapping theories here. At this moment we wanted
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina in Yugoslavia, and there were no entities that were
2 supposed to be there. And as I said, later, as it seemed obvious that
3 there would be a Yugoslavia consisting of Serbia and Montenegro only,
4 there was this idea of an independent Bosnia within which these entities
5 would be formed on the basis of the census.
6 I don't want there to be any confusion at this point in time that
7 we wanted some entity which would not be the same entity like in the
8 Cutileiro Plan. These are regions, regions that would have various ties
9 so that the overall interests would be taken into account, not only the
10 Serb interests. So all of that should be taken into account.
11 Therefore, Mr. Stewart was right when he said would it have been
12 less. At that moment, if these regions were brought together they would
13 be a lot less than what Bosnia and Herzegovina was. Of course there would
14 be other regions and yet third regions, but these are regions that had
15 been established earlier on and that had been verified and they would not
16 be sociopolitical communities or states or anything like that.
17 Have I been clear now? I'm afraid that we're going to create some
18 confusion here.
19 JUDGE ORIE: There has not been any confusion until now. It was,
20 as I said before, crystal clear. And I just wondered whether that
21 additional question was needed, being it clear already to us.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are going to reconcile me with
24 Mr. Stewart by the end of my testimony. I see that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Although it's not my objective, it would be a side
1 effect which would not damage anyone perhaps.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. STEWART: I'm speechless for one moment, Your Honour.
4 Q. In the transcript the next bit of that sentence, I've already read
5 the whole sentence, but after the reference to the one legal and state
6 entity you then use the phrase: "One common state with all the other
7 peoples ..."
8 Now, the way it reads, Mr. Krajisnik - and please confirm this -
9 is that the one common state you're referring to is the same as the one
10 legal and state entity that you've just referred to. Is that correct?
11 A. I have to read this out. Serbs -- well, like the Germans have
12 Bavaria that is called a state and then in the United States of America
13 there is Texas that is a state, well, this is what was meant here, not an
14 independent state but that it should be -- well, as far as I can see it --
15 or actually, I cannot see it. It would be easier if I could find it here
16 now. But it does refer to Yugoslavia. It's Serbs and other people who
17 would live in that state. Yes, yes, exactly. The interests of all
18 peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina; yes, you're right. Yes. That's the part
19 that you referred to, yes.
20 Q. So on the footing that what you're referring to is one legal and
21 state entity, same as what you're referring to there as one common state.
22 Your reference to "one common state with all the other peoples who want to
23 build a happier future with us," what is meant there by "all the other
24 peoples"? Does it -- I'll be more specific. Is that intended to embrace
25 Serbs and non-Serbs?
1 A. I'm certainly referring to both Serbs and non-Serbs here. But I
2 have to say that it is very difficult to interpret what this speaker here
3 is trying to say because Yugoslavia and Bosnia are being mentioned here
4 intermittently and then this entity.
5 Now I'm speaking on my own behalf. The intention here was for us
6 to create something that would be in the interests of the Serbs and the
8 Now, when he's speaking here, there's that part of the sentence
9 that you referred to, autonomous regions that would be linked-up --
10 Q. Sorry, may I just interrupt for one moment, Mr. Krajisnik. There
11 is no -- there is no confusion here, is there? We are all understanding,
12 are we, that the speaker here is you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I just wanted to be clear about that, Mr. Krajisnik. You used the
15 third person and you referred to difficulties in interpreting. I just
16 wanted to clarify that. I'm -- I beg your pardon. I interrupted just to
17 make that crystal clear at least.
18 A. If you look at another paragraph where I said that it is our duty
19 to determine the function of regions and autonomous districts with a view
20 to preserving the unity of the Serb people in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
21 Therefore, we should not allow regions to become independent entities
22 separate from the rest of the Serb people; that is to say, that they
23 should not become states. Deputies, you know that, but I am just pointing
24 out here that we have to do this. Let us not turn the regions into states
25 because that was the inclination of the Serbs -- or at least that's the
1 way it was. They wanted small regions that they established to turn into
2 states so that they would be, as I said yesterday, little Napoleons, that
3 is to say small-scale emperors. That's the point of this whole idea.
4 Because a lot of Serbs --
5 Q. Your Honour, I guess -- perhaps I'm wrong here. I guess that you
6 are probably going a bit fast for comfortable interpretation. Maybe I'm
8 MR. STEWART: Interpreters, am I wrong?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, no.
10 MR. STEWART: I'm not wrong?
11 THE INTERPRETER: You're not wrong.
12 MR. STEWART: Thank you. That's crystal clear as well.
13 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, this is -- as you've acknowledged yourself, this is
14 a difficult area. It's rather technical, it's rather difficult. In your
15 own interests, as much as everybody else's, I think the slower the better
17 A. Thank you. Thank you for having cautioned me.
18 I want to indicate what I said at the beginning of this paragraph.
19 The point is that I, as the speaker, am referring to a danger looming over
20 the Serb people, that regions could behave like states, which would lead
21 to multi-fold danger. Then I emphasised that in the past Serbs were --
22 tended to divide themselves up and to set up statelets. It was necessary
23 for us to unite because outside these regions there would be a lot of
24 Serbs left in other parts that were not these regions. We kept saying
25 that. If there is to be any unification, it would have to be at the level
1 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It would be a chamber of peoples or whatever. And
2 then all Serbs would be involved in that kind of organisation.
3 If it would only be the regions that were to be linked up, that
4 would mean that you'd have several tiny statelets within a confederation
5 of regions. That is the gist of what I was saying. This speech refers to
6 that phenomenon within Bosnia-Herzegovina.
7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'll go a bit more directly to the point that
8 arises out of your reference to a common state there. The one legal and
9 state entity -- the one common state that you refer to there confirmed by
10 you as the same thing you're referring to, that would be, wouldn't it,
11 essentially a Serb-run entity. Correct?
12 A. Yes. An entity with a Serb majority. Those are the regions
14 Q. And so when you refer to "one common state with all the other
15 peoples who want to build a happier future with us," are you referring
16 there to the other peoples who -- the non-Serbs who would continue to live
17 within that Serb-run entity, or are you referring to other peoples outside
18 that Serb-run entity?
19 A. I mean that a constitution should be made for this Serb entity,
20 but I'm calling it that only conditionally. However, in that constitution
21 it should say that there should be a segment within a common constitution
22 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It would be easy for you to see that later, that
23 we make this for us and then it's within the joint constitution for
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, too.
25 That's what you said, too. In this constitution and in this
1 common state, if we are to call it that, without the actual
2 characteristics of a state, all of those who wish that we all together
3 build that kind of state should live there.
4 Q. Then you --
5 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, again, the rest of that -- well, the
6 next few paragraphs, they're not unimportant, Your Honour, by any means,
7 but they're not giving rise directly to questions now.
8 Q. And then you've got point 5 in the margin of your copy,
9 Mr. Krajisnik, I think against a paragraph that begins: "Gentlemen, if we
10 are out-voted ..."
11 Do you see that?
12 MR. STEWART: It's at the top of page 11 of the English, Your
14 Q. It's a shortish paragraph, that three-line paragraph
15 beginning: "Gentlemen, if we are out-voted in discussions of national
16 interest ..."
17 It should have the number 5 in the margin very close to it.
18 A. Yes, yes, I've found it.
19 Q. Thank you. It says: "Gentlemen, if we are out-voted in
20 discussions of national interest to the Serbian people at the
21 institutional proceedings, the will of the Serbian people will be
22 expressed through the decisions of the Assembly of the Serbian people of
23 Bosnia and Herzegovina."
24 Your reference to "institutional proceedings," you're referring
25 there primarily, are you, to the Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly?
1 A. Yes. If we are out-voted in Bosnia-Herzegovina - and that only
2 has to do with vital national interests - then we're going to discuss it
3 at this Assembly and the decisions of that Assembly will be valid.
4 It's not democratic out-voting but an out-voting that violates the
5 constitution, and it's very important to distinguish between the two. It
6 is democratic to have MPs out-vote each other but not to violate the
8 Q. And you refer then -- the next paragraph you say: "The basic
9 principle we should observe in our activities is not to impose the will of
10 the Serbian people on other peoples. We should represent the legitimate
11 will of the Muslims and Croats, but we must not underestimate our
12 advantages expressed through the realistic ratio of political forces in
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina."
14 What were those advantages, as you saw them?
15 A. Lawyers kept advising us to the effect that we have an advantage
16 because we are within Yugoslavia and that that is a right that supercedes
17 the right of those who wish to leave Yugoslavia. So that's the advantage.
18 Later on we established something completely different, but at
19 that moment it was supposed to be an advantage for the Serb people that
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina was in Yugoslavia, and that is the substance of this
21 part of my remarks.
22 Q. Then the next paragraph --
23 MR. STEWART: Again, Your Honours, I'm not going to dwell on the
24 next paragraph but it's important as part of this context.
25 Q. And then at the bottom of page 11 of the English, and it's at a
1 paragraph beginning: "On this occasion, too, I should remark ..."
2 Do you see that short paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik? It's three lines.
3 A. Yes, I see it.
4 Q. Yes.
5 "On this occasion, too, I should remark that there is noticeable
6 rivalry and disunity in some municipalities. All forms of desire for
7 power should be dismissed. We have always lacked unity, and now we need
8 it more than ever."
9 The "we have always lacked unity," "we" is a reference to Serbs,
10 is it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you've remarked about "noticeable rivalry and disunity in some
14 How -- what was the degree of disunity and what was the degree of
15 difficulty it was creating?
16 A. There were many examples of rivalry at municipal level and other
17 levels, and then these rivals would create problems for each other. They
18 would be laying blame at each other's door and of course there can be no
19 progress if there is that kind of rivalry. I'm talking about people who
20 are in power in municipalities. That is the only organisational unit that
21 existed, apart from the republic itself. And this primarily refers to
22 Serbs because I did say that it was about Serbs.
23 Q. Were any steps being taken at this time to try and dampen down
24 such rivalry and heal such disunity?
25 A. Mr. Karadzic was the president of the party. These cadres only
1 came from the SDS, from the party. And very often, himself, went or sent
2 his representatives to these municipalities to try to bring about some
3 kind of reconciliation in order to find a solution. He also had the right
4 to dissolve Municipal Boards of the SDS. So there was this ongoing
5 activity in order to bring about reconciliation, and sometimes people were
6 also replaced by others.
7 I'm talking about party affairs now. Of course members of
8 Assemblies, since they belong to political parties, too, most often carry
9 through these decisions that were agreed at party level. So efforts were
10 made to resolve the problem.
11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you talked about -- well, you mentioned
12 Mr. Krajisnik [sic] going or sending his representatives to municipalities
13 to try to bring about some kind of reconciliation?
14 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Karadzic.
15 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Karadzic, Dr. Karadzic, it's -- my second
16 reference to Krajisnik should be Karadzic.
17 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you talked about Dr. Karadzic going or sending his
18 representatives to municipalities to try to bring about some kind of
19 reconciliation. Did he on any occasion during 1991 send you as his
20 representative to any municipality for that purpose?
21 A. I recall two cases. Once, as president of the Assembly of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I went to Sekovici. That is a purely Serb
23 municipality, and it was the municipal organs that were quarrelling, and
24 it was a state problem, so to speak.
25 And I remember this other situation, I don't remember exactly when
1 it was, when there was a problem between the political party and the
2 municipality in Trebinje. And Mr. Karadzic asked me to accompany him in
3 order to find a diplomatic solution, in order to bring about
4 reconciliation, but we did not succeed.
5 I remember those two examples, but perhaps I attended a similar
6 meeting in Banja Luka or somewhere else with Mr. Karadzic. But I do not
7 remember any other situation when I was sent on my own.
8 I beg your pardon. There was this other problem, too, in Drvar.
9 I remember that. A delegation from Drvar came to see me as president of
10 the Assembly. They were quarrelling over some municipal affairs, and then
11 I resolved the problem autonomously. It was not a party problem but a
12 state problem. I received the delegation, so that was my mediation, so to
13 speak, but it really had nothing to do with the party. That is as much as
14 I can remember.
15 Q. So -- just on this point, Mr. Krajisnik, you've mentioned that you
16 went to Sekovici -- sorry -- have I --
17 A. Sekovici, Trebinje, and I mentioned Drvar, too.
18 Q. Did you in the course of 1991, in the course of your work or
19 duties or responsibilities in the political field, visit any other
20 municipalities outside Sarajevo in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
21 A. I had a private problem on account of which I did not travel
22 because my wife had been ill. I don't remember whether I visited some
23 municipality. Maybe I did, but that was as president of the Assembly of
25 Or perhaps -- I remember a problem being mentioned here of a
1 meeting in Doboj and then the question was put whether I was in Doboj or
2 not, that is towards the Autonomous Region of Doboj. At that time I did
3 attend that meeting, and I will explain that. However, if I did this, it
4 was very, very rarely.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, your last question suggested - at least
6 from what I -- how I interpreted that - that the four events Mr. Krajisnik
7 mentioned were all in 1991. That had not been established yet, but
8 perhaps you could seek confirmation.
9 MR. STEWART: Yes. In fact, Your Honour is -- is absolutely right
10 about that.
11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, those -- all those visits that you have just
12 mentioned were in 1991. Is that correct?
13 A. Drvar was in 1991. Sekovici was in 1991. I just can't remember
14 when this happened in Trebinje. I can't remember that exactly, whereas
15 the two I mentioned were in 1991 for sure. I think that Doboj was also in
16 1991. I cannot remember the other one.
17 Q. If Trebinje was not in 1991, was it in 1992 or in 1990? Do you
18 see what I mean? Was it later than 1991 or earlier than 1991, if it
19 wasn't in that year?
20 A. No, no. Absolutely it only could have been 1991 or perhaps 1992.
21 And 1990? No. I did not go to any municipalities in 1990.
22 Q. If we go back to the transcript that we were looking at following
23 on from the paragraph we just looked at --
24 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Stewart. If you ask me whether I visited some
25 municipality in 1990, was that your question? My understanding was
1 whether I visited some municipalities in 1991 when I was president of the
2 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, it would have been my question but you already
4 answered it because you said you didn't go to any municipalities in 1990.
5 That was going to be my next question --
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. But since you answered it before I asked it, even I don't need to
8 go --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- any further, Mr. Krajisnik.
11 So going back to the transcripts, the paragraph we'd looked at on
12 this occasion, too, I should remark -- we're going to move on from that --
13 that's just the reference point then. The next paragraph is -- well,
14 it's: "Deputies!" In the English at the top of page 12. And then it
15 says: "We can send a message to all the people in Bosnia and
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. "We can send a message to all the people in Bosnia and Herzegovina
20 that we want to preserve Bosnia and Herzegovina as a whole and as a part
21 of Yugoslavia, because only in a whole Bosnia and Herzegovina and
22 Yugoslavia can all the Serbs, and other peoples, too, live in a single
23 state. If anyone should want to separate Bosnia and Herzegovina from
24 Yugoslavia, he must bear in mind that he will have the entire Serbian
25 people against him."
1 So, Mr. Krajisnik, is this correct. The position is that
2 everything that you were saying a couple of pages previously and that I
3 was asking you questions about, about the Serbian people organising
4 themselves into one legal and state unity, that would only ever arise if
5 this wish to preserve Bosnia and Herzegovina as a whole and part of
6 Yugoslavia failed?
7 A. Absolutely. I had emphasised that that was the second stage.
8 Yes, absolutely.
9 Q. And then you continue: "One cannot fight against a people or
10 secede. It is not worth starting something knowing that it is doomed to
12 "It is our wish to live together, but in harmony and love. But if
13 we cannot live together, it would be ruinous to wage war. It would be
14 better to separate. Gentlemen, I would like to paraphrase our former
15 brethren, the Slovenes - 'let's separate so that we can associate again.'"
16 And that separation that you were referring to then, it would be
17 better to separate rather than wage war, that's the separation inherent in
18 what you were saying about organisation into a -- one legal and state
19 entity. Is that right?
20 A. If you allow me to just give a brief introduction to this.
21 In all versions that envisaged the Serbian entity, I was
22 absolutely against any borders separating the three peoples because nobody
23 was closer than these three communities. And if we were unable to find
24 a -- I mean, a mutually acceptable solution, then I don't know. We were
25 telling them: The Serbian people had their own plebiscite. They
1 expressed their will. Don't go against it, otherwise you would have a --
2 you would be faced with a secession. It's better to negotiate, it's
3 better to agree. Any borders separating us would be a disaster. Even if
4 it were physically possible to create borders, it would be against all of
5 our interests. That is the meaning of my words here.
6 And when I invoke the Slovenes, they had said: Let us separate so
7 that we can get together again, something to that effect. Their -- these
8 words were some kind of political marketing, meaning that they wanted to
9 dissolve Yugoslavia in order to establish some other ties.
10 My opinion was that borders made no sense among communities that
11 were so closely knit. That was the meaning of my words. And the answer
12 to your question is yes, but I had to explain it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I'm looking at the clock.
14 MR. STEWART: That's -- well, I'm entirely in Your Honour's hands
15 of course.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn for 20 minutes and re-start at five
17 minutes to 6.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, perhaps I should report briefly on the
22 particular --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it -- it concerned media reporting of
25 this -- in fact, television reporting of these proceedings in Sarajevo.
1 Mr. Krajisnik has expressed on one or two specific points considerable
2 concern about the way in which his evidence and the current state of these
3 proceedings is being reported an a television channel which he is himself
4 able to see, because in the United Nations Detention Unit some of these
5 channels are made available.
6 Your Honour, Mr. Krajisnik, I'm sure, as we alive to freedom of --
7 freedom of expression, freedom of the press, and the inevitable in
8 real-life inaccuracies that occur from time to time; however, he's
9 concerned beyond that normal margin which just has to be accepted as part
10 of life.
11 Your Honour, we're really a little bit in Your Honours' hands as
12 to how one should proceed. The -- these concerns does suggest -- they do
13 merit investigation. The first thing to do is really to find out perhaps
14 exactly what was said so that one can form some view. We wonder in the
15 circumstances, Your Honour, whether this is a matter that perhaps the
16 Registry might pursue in the first place. It's an unprecedented problem,
17 as far as we're concerned, Your Honour, here. We don't know the
18 procedures and the normal way, if there is a normal way, of dealing with
19 the matter, but that might be an appropriate course. We could give
20 information on the problem to the Registry.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether it's an unprecedented problem,
22 Mr. Stewart. Better reporting on court cases whether in this Tribunal or
23 anywhere else is not unfamiliar to you.
24 MR. STEWART: Oh, Your Honour, absolutely. And we discussed that
25 very point with Mr. Krajisnik, and we're all, Mr. Krajisnik and we are
1 aware that that's a part of life. Yes, of course.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll certainly get in touch with the Registrar
3 himself to see whether -- what position has been taken until now by the
4 Registry. And as far as this Chamber is concerned, I will discuss the
5 matter with my colleagues soon, but I would not give any false
6 expectations as to a Chamber interfering easily in reporting on cases that
7 are before it because it would require an assessment of the fairness not
8 of its -- on trial but of the reporting on it. And even if you would
9 consider it unfair, the freedom of expression, as we all know now and
10 then, leads to what others would consider unfair.
11 So therefore, I don't want to give any false expectation. The
12 only thing I'll -- I'll say that I'll get in touch with the Registrar,
13 report to him that the issue has been raised here, and ask him whether
14 there's any -- what, until now, the attitude has been of the Registry,
15 whether to refrain from any comment or whether to more actively, perhaps,
16 support fair reporting. Of course, I have not seen it, so I have got no
17 judgement at this moment.
18 MR. STEWART: Well, me neither.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Just to say that on the basis of what Mr. Krajisnik
20 has raised. And the other thing is I'll discuss with my fellow Judges
21 whether there is -- whether anything should be done or whether we should
22 not do anything. And I'll discuss that and I'll very briefly report to
23 you on the outcome of that.
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I mention one specific point, if
25 Your Honour may or may not think it suitable to raise with the Registrar.
1 There are -- the way the matter is conducted here, there are two possible
2 channels of information that go to the television station. One is that
3 they can be simply watching the trial on the internet. That's an obvious
4 one. The other is that there is some source and channel from within this
5 building. It's really got to be one or the other, effectively.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From what I know that every television station
7 which is interested in receiving the recordings of this Tribunal is --
8 gets it for free, although there is a delay of half an hour, but it's
9 accessible to whatever television station, from what I understand, and
10 without any payment. So therefore I would say that the -- that's one of
11 the guarantees of the public character of our trials is that all the
12 video -- apart, of course, if it's closed session, but it's made available
13 to the outside world. Yes.
14 MR. STEWART: Yes. We understand it entirely, Your Honour. We
15 certainly don't seek to challenge or undermine that in any way, far from
16 it. But we -- the only question that remains then is whether there is --
17 separately from that whether there is any sort of briefing given --
18 because, after all, this institution does have a -- as we understand it,
19 has a press department, so we simply -- well, that is one of the other
20 possible sources of information. And without pre-empting and without
21 criticising anybody in advance who may or may not be involved, it is
22 necessarily, therefore, if it's a source of information, it's at least, in
23 theory, a source of inaccurate information. But I'm not saying in
24 advance, Your Honour, that is the position.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From what I know is that the press releases
1 that are issued by the -- by the office are -- may I just finish for a
2 second - are public. You can find them on the web site as well. What
3 other information is given, I'm not aware of it, but I'll certainly pass
4 that portion of your remarks to the -- to the Registrar as well, because
5 the press office has a different name, but our press office is --
6 MR. STEWART: Yes --
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- is under the responsibility of the Registry.
8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour might just remember that a long time
9 ago, about two and a half years ago when this trial began, right at the
10 very outset there was an issue raised by the Defence of concern as to an
11 inaccurate report - and it certainly was in that case an inaccurate report
12 in one of the leading English newspapers - where the information certainly
13 did come from within this building. It died a death and nothing was done
14 about it. But, Your Honour, that -- it's always a possibility, and we
15 remember that --
16 JUDGE ORIE: And we have official sources, and I could not for the
17 full 100 per cent exclude that unofficial sources from wherever could play
18 a role as well.
19 Mr. Krajisnik, you wanted to add one thing, I take it?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I can be of assistance to
21 Mr. Stewart.
22 I'm not complaining about the reporting of the press; it's their
23 trade. In the Detention Unit I am able to watch one TV station called
24 Hajat, a TV station from Bosnia-Herzegovina. And for two days running
25 they reported in a completely distorted manner what I have been saying
1 here in the courtroom. There is one trial here, but there is also a media
2 trial in Bosnia. It's not the same thing as the coverage of the Guardian
3 or the Washington Post or some other such newspaper.
4 I would like to tell you exactly what my problem is in a private
5 session. I have frequently been under attack from the press and that is
6 completely normal.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'll discuss with the other Judges whether -- to what
8 extent we'll go into the matter and whether we would do that in a public
9 session or in a private session. We'll give you our views on that -- at
10 least the result of our -- of our conversations on the matter, our
11 deliberations on the matter, soon. Yes.
12 Then, Mr. Stewart.
13 MR. STEWART: Yes. A small matter, Your Honour -- well, small,
14 not unimportant to Mr. Krajisnik, but there's one aspect of what he told
15 us which he doesn't wish, and reasonably enough, doesn't wish to be
16 ventilated in public.
17 Your Honour, in the first place what we propose is that we would
18 raise that in an e-mail which we'd copy to the Prosecution, of course, in
19 the usual way. It's a relatively narrowly confined aspect of this.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll --
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: An e-mail of the type you indicated will be read by
23 the Chamber.
24 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik.
1 MR. STEWART: And Your Honours.
2 Q. Returning to the 2nd Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly that we
3 were looking at. We're at page 12 of the English transcript, and it's the
4 passage we were looking at before the break, Mr. Krajisnik, where you had
5 said: "It is our wish to live together but in harmony and love. But if
6 we cannot live together it would be ruinous to wage war."
7 You see that paragraph, do you? It is just a reference point,
8 Mr. Krajisnik, so we can work from there. Do you see that paragraph? You
9 end up saying: "Let's separate so that we can associate again."
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. If we go on then, three paragraphs from that -- no,
12 two paragraphs, you say: "On our way to achieving the goals of the
13 Serbian people we accept all friends, we accept everybody except traitors
14 and opponents.
15 "Traitors and outcasts are the most difficult opponents. We would
16 like to send the following message to all those who falter or are neutral,
17 weak, or misguided and who do not feel like traitors: 'Today you still
18 have time, tomorrow will be too late.'
19 "Join us in creating a common state and you will be proud that
20 you are not state destroyers, but state creators."
21 Mr. Krajisnik, did you have in referring to "traitors," did you
22 have any particular people or group of people in mind?
23 A. When I talked about that kind of people I always have specific
24 persons in mind. In every ethnic community there are such people, and
25 likewise at that time there was Serbs who were greater opponents of Serbs
1 than even the most radical Croats or Muslims were.
2 Q. What -- in this particular context at this particular time, what
3 position, in your view, on the part of a Serb constituted treachery?
4 A. I'll try to be quite specific. If it is obvious that the
5 constitution has been violated to the detriment of the Serbs, and if one
6 of the Serbian MPs from whatever party rises in parliament and propounds a
7 totally opposite view for some purely private reasons, the private reason
8 being that under the previous system which had a system of proportionate
9 representation from which that person benefitted, those people always had
10 it better than some other people who could never actually come to the
11 fore, even if -- even though they would have represented Serb interests
12 much better than those actually occupying the posts. They were actually
13 working against Serb interests.
14 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, would you turn on to number 6 in the margin of your
15 copy which is in the middle of page 15 of the English.
16 A. I found it.
17 Q. And then we see a paragraph beginning: "The Main Commission for
18 the plebiscite of the Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina at its
19 meeting in Sarajevo on 11th November 1991 reviewed the reports of the
20 municipal committees for the plebiscite on results of the plebiscite of
21 the Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina held on 9th and 10th
22 November ... in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and stated the
23 following ..."
24 And then figures are given that a total of 1 million, then 64.157
25 citizens were registered, and then just going down to the figure at the
1 bottom, a total of 1.162.032 citizens of Serbian nationality voted in the
2 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and of those 1.161.146 voted in
3 favour, 398 voted against, 488 were invalid.
4 Had you been expecting a result of that nature and scale before
5 the plebiscite?
6 A. Yes. Those were approximately the results, although they are on
7 the optimistic side.
8 Q. Do you mean they were better than you had expected when you
9 say "on the optimistic side"?
10 A. Yes. Slightly better than we had forecast.
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, the results are set out in some detail
12 here in figures. I'm certainly not going to dwell on those, but would
13 invite Your Honours to note them, and they include results from outside
14 Bosnia as well.
15 Q. May we go on, Mr. Krajisnik, to where you would find number 7 in
16 the margin.
17 MR. STEWART: Which, Your Honours, is at page 25 of the English,
18 where a decision is to be proposed by the vice-president Dr. Milanovic.
19 And the propose is that the -- "based on the will" --
20 Q. Do you find that, Mr. Krajisnik, Dr. Milanovic speaking? Thank
22 A. I found it.
23 Q. He says: "Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen, members of the
24 Assembly, dear guests. Based on the will expressed by the Serbian people
25 of Bosnia and Herzegovina at the plebiscite held on 9th and 10th November
1 1991 and the conclusions of the Assembly of the Serbian people of Bosnia
2 and Herzegovina adopted on 24th October 1991 and on 21st November 1991,
3 the Assembly of the Serbian people for Bosnia and Herzegovina hereby
4 adopts the following."
5 And: "Decision." And number I is: "Municipalities, local
6 communes, and settlements where the plebiscite was held of the Serbian and
7 other peoples to remain in the common state of Yugoslavia together with
8 the Republic of Serb, Republic of Montenegro, the Serbian Autonomous
9 Districts," again it must be plural, "of Krajina, Slavonia, Baranja, and
10 Western Srem was held on 9th and 10th November 1991 where more than
11 50 per cent of the registered citizens of Serbian nationality voted for a
12 common state, and where citizens of other peoples and nationalities voted
13 to stay in the common state of Yugoslavia shall be considered the
14 territory of the Federal State of Yugoslavia."
15 Mr. Krajisnik, we can easily infer, can't we, from the fact that
16 there are applause, and then all deputies rise, long applause, that that
17 gained immediate and enthusiastic approval? That's right, isn't it?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. The -- well, let's -- let's read the next bit first.
20 Number II: "Parts of the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina from
21 item I of this decision, together with the territory of the Republic
22 of Srpska" -- Serbia, I beg your pardon, "the Republic of Serbia and the
23 Republic of Montenegro, Serb Autonomous Region Krajina, SAO Krajina,
24 SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, make up the core of the common
25 state of Yugoslavia."
1 And then III: "Municipalities, local communes, and settlements in
2 which the plebiscite was not held may vote in a new plebiscite or based on
3 the decision of the Municipal Assembly may remain in the common state from
4 item I of this decision or may be organised in a different way."
5 So, Mr. Krajisnik, going back, then, seeing those elements
6 together, but going back to number I, the result, as stated, of this
7 decision would be that where "more than 50 per cent of the registered
8 citizens of Serbian nationality voted for a common state," that
9 municipality, commune, or settlement was to be considered the territory of
10 the federal state of Yugoslavia. That's plain from the wording, isn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So, for example, is this correct: That if the Serbian -- if the
13 Serbs in a particular municipality were in a minority and that
14 municipality as a whole -- but if more than half of them had voted for a
15 common state, then logically their municipality was to be considered
16 territory of the federal state of Yugoslavia. Is that correct?
17 A. I think this requires an explanation.
18 A plebiscite is a way of -- is a way for a people in one territory
19 to express its will. In this case, wherever Serbs had declared their will
20 in one territory to stay in Yugoslavia, that area was to be part of
21 Yugoslavia. But the next article deals with exactly how this was going to
22 be arranged. The first article just notes that the Serbs in a particular
23 territory had expressed their will to stay in Yugoslavia, but it doesn't
24 mean -- it doesn't mean that it will be so, because negotiations with the
25 other two sides have yet to begin. There is a huge difference between a
1 plebiscite and a referendum.
2 MR. STEWART: Excuse me one moment, Your Honour.
3 [Defence counsel confer]
4 MR. STEWART:
5 Q. Could you, Mr. Krajisnik, explain what you see as that huge
6 difference between a plebiscite and a referendum.
7 A. A plebiscite has the purpose of establishing the will of the
8 people in one area and, once expressed, this decision of the people has to
9 be verified, or ratified, by the Assembly.
10 But if you hold the referendum, like it was done in Bosnia, then
11 it's a final decision with executive force. It has to be enforced. In
12 our situation, we had adopted at a referendum a decision that was contrary
13 to the plebiscite. The Muslim side made a completely contrary decision,
14 saying that Bosnia has to be independent. And that's the basic difference
15 between the plebiscite and the referendum.
16 Q. So -- because, Mr. Krajisnik, the terminologies are used in all
17 sorts of different ways and all sorts of different places, and so on. But
18 as far as you are using those terms, it's essentially this: A referendum
19 you regard as binding then on the other political organs? That's the --
20 the people have spoken. They've given an answer to the referendum, and
21 that's got to be implemented. Is that -- that's your summary of a
22 referendum, is it?
23 A. Yes. A referendum was held in Canada, in Quebec. If that vote
24 had won 51 per cent, it -- Quebec would have become an independent state.
25 In our state, if you have to express your opinion whether you want taxes
1 raised or something else, then you just get the opinion of the people. We
2 wanted Serbs to tell us whether they wanted to stay within Yugoslavia, and
3 we got their opinion. In all areas that were polled, those people wanted
4 to stay within Yugoslavia, but in order for their decision to be
5 implemented there had to be negotiations within Bosnia and Herzegovina,
6 with the other two ethnic communities, and that's the way it goes.
7 Later, in 1992, a referendum was held and that decision had to be
8 implemented. That's the difference between the way this operation was
9 carried out by Serbs, on the one hand, and Croats and Muslims on the
10 other. I don't know what difference there exists between the terms in
11 other foreign languages.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's the problem. You have clearly explained what
13 you consider to be a plebiscite and what you consider to be a referendum,
14 whereas in many other countries they would use it in different ways. You
15 would have a consultative referendum, for example, which means just
16 consulting the people. But you make a difference between consulting the
17 people or to give the decision in the hands of the people, who would then,
18 by majority, make that decision. And the last you called a referendum.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that whenever the issue is further raised
21 that it should always be clear whether we are talking about consultation
22 of the people or whether we are talking about a decision made by a vote of
23 the people by majority.
24 MR. STEWART: Absolutely, Your Honour, and I'll do my very best in
25 any questions to be clear. Your Honour --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Terminology --
2 MR. STEWART: -- is seeing well that I had in mind that we would
3 talk about the question of whether it would be a binding referendum or a
4 non-binding referendum. That's just precisely how it might operate.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. STEWART: Excuse me one moment, I know Mr. Josse wants to ...
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 MR. STEWART:
10 Q. So let me give you the hypothetical example, Mr. Krajisnik - you
11 may say it's not hypothetical - that I had mentioned a few minutes ago.
12 So in a situation -- say you've got a municipality,
13 municipality X. Municipality X where the Serbs are in a minority but
14 there has been this plebiscite conducted in that municipality among the
15 Serbs and more than 50 per cent of the Serbs have voted yes in this
16 plebiscite for a common state. Under the literal terms of part I of this
17 decision, their municipality is to be considered the territory of the
18 federal state of Yugoslavia. That's how it would literally apply, isn't
20 A. If Serbs were a minority in that municipality, there are smaller
21 administrative units called local communes. And if that area had held a
22 plebiscite, then it had to be territorialised in some way. We didn't have
23 the right to say: This area belonged to Yugoslavia if Serbs were in a
24 minority there.
25 There are many towns where one ethnic community was in a majority
1 but overall speaking throughout that area in terms of the land register
2 another ethnic community was the majority. So if Serbs were the absolute,
3 so to say, overall majority in that area, then that area would be
4 considered part of Yugoslavia. It was not enough for Serbs to be a
5 majority just in one little unit.
6 That's why there is a difference between maps based on land
7 registers that we proposed and one map that was produced here by a witness
8 who explained that those were maps until municipality. I believe it was
9 Witness Okun. That was an important difference. And whenever we
10 negotiated, we used maps based on land registers. Within one municipality
11 you could look at one smaller unit or at the municipality or area overall.
12 I don't know if I managed to explain this clearly enough.
13 Q. Can I ask you about point III or part III of this decision, the
14 one that starts: "Municipalities, local communes, and settlements," this
15 is top of page 26 in the English. Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik, we read
16 it a few minutes ago: "Municipalities, local communes, and settlements in
17 which the plebiscite was not held" --
18 A. Yes, I see that.
19 Q. And they went to a -- "may vote in a new plebiscite or based on
20 the decision of the Municipal Assembly may remain in the common state from
21 item I of this decision or may be organised in a different way."
22 That phrase, "may be organised in a different way," was that
23 intended to be just entirely general or were specific, alternative ways of
24 organising themselves actually in contemplation?
25 A. That is precisely the question that I have just answered. Local
1 communes within municipalities where Serbs were overall in a minority also
2 had to declare their will. And this phrase, "organised in a different
3 way," if that municipality did not take part in the plebiscite, whatever
4 they said, whether they wanted to stay in Yugoslavia or not, it was up to
5 them to decide how they wanted to be organised.
6 The plebiscite was over. We knew who was in favour of staying in
7 Yugoslavia, whereas the rest had to state their opinion. This was an
8 opportunity for those who did not take part in the plebiscite to make it
9 plain what they wanted. The plebiscite was only for those who were in
10 favour of staying in Yugoslavia.
11 Q. Now, part IV, which we haven't read yet. Then part IV that
12 follows on: "Dr. Radovan Karadzic, Dr. Nikola Koljevic, Dr. Biljana
13 Plavsic, Momcilo Krajisnik, Dr. Aleksa Buha, and Dr. Vojislav Maksimovic,
14 as representatives of the Serbian people, are authorised to negotiate with
15 representatives of the Muslim and Croatian people on the organisation of
16 the future common life in the territory of the present Socialist Republic
17 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
18 "In negotiations with the representatives of the Muslim and
19 Croatian people, the representatives of the Serbian people from the
20 preceding paragraph shall recognise the interests and national decisions
21 of other nations in regard to which community they wish to live in, and
22 they may be opposed to the Muslim and Croatian people forming separate
23 state entities or a common state."
24 Now, the question I'm going to ask concentrates on that last bit,
25 Mr. Krajisnik, that they -- this is an authority given to them,
1 clearly. "They may be opposed to the Muslim and Croatian people forming
2 separate state entities or a common state."
3 By reference to "separate state entities," did that mean the
4 equivalent for Muslims and Croats of that single state entity that we
5 considered a while before the last break, the Serb entity that had been
6 under discussion? Was that the equivalent?
7 A. Well, this was written by lawyers, and lawyers tend to complicate
8 even very simple matters.
9 This was supposed to mean: We are not imposing our will on other
10 people. Let them organise themselves as they wish. Let them state their
11 wishes as they please. We have stated their opinion -- our opinion, now
12 you state yours. When the American administration came to support the
13 union between Muslims and Croats, that became evident. Nobody should
14 impose their will on anybody, and even this additional sentence that can
15 now be interpreted in various ways, the crux of the matter was that
16 they -- it was up to them to decide what they wanted and we were not going
17 to tell them what to do.
18 I meant Serb lawyers. I didn't mean lawyers in general.
19 Q. Of course I was not going to jeopardise our respect to
20 reconciliation, Mr. Krajisnik, by commenting.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I would not mind, Mr. Krajisnik, and I would not even
22 contradict that there is no merit at all in it.
23 Please continue.
24 MR. STEWART: I'm not saying a word, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, can we go to marginal number 8 in your copy, which
1 is the top of page 28 of the English. Just to note, in fact, the fact
2 that the -- it records: "The Assembly unanimously adopted" -- I beg your
3 pardon, Mr. Krajisnik?
4 A. Excuse me, is that 6 or 8?
5 Q. 8, yes. It's not much further on. It's about a page and a bit,
6 possibly, further on. It's -- simply, it's in capital letters in the
7 English. But it's simply to -- to note that: "The Assembly unanimously
8 adopted the decision on the territories who decided in the plebiscite" --
9 A. Yes, yes. I'm sorry. I found it.
10 Q. That -- well, that's just to note that.
11 MR. STEWART: And, Your Honours, please.
12 Q. And then about a further page on, number 9 in the
13 margin: "Decision on the verification of the proclaimed Serbian
14 Autonomous Regions in Bosnia and Herzegovina."
15 And that --
16 A. Is that this passage: "The Assembly unanimously adopts the
17 decision about territories that have stated in the plebiscite they were
18 staying in Yugoslavia"?
19 Q. That was the first passage - that's exactly right - against
20 number 8, Mr. Krajisnik. It's just to note that. Yes.
21 And then number 9, moving on about probably a page, I think,
22 something like that. And then it's -- in fact, it's Dr. Branko Milanovic
23 who is putting forward this -- well, it's a draft decision that he's
24 putting before the meeting, a decision on the verification of the
25 proclaimed Serbian Autonomous Regions and the -- it says: "Decisions on
1 the proclamation of the Serbian Autonomous Regions in Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina are hereby verified," that's the proposal.
3 And they are: "Autonomous Region of Krajina," and then all the
4 municipalities are listed. I won't read them out, Mr. Krajisnik; too
5 painful for everybody.
6 And then about six lines down: "The Serbian Autonomous Region of
8 And then about three lines down in the English certainly, on
9 page 29: "The Serbian Autonomous Region of Romanija and Birac."
10 And then three lines on in the English: "Serbian Autonomous
11 District of Semberija."
12 Another couple of lines on: "The Serbian Autonomous District of
13 Northern Bosnia," and then the municipalities are listed.
14 And then Part II: "The Serbian autonomous districts on the
15 previous item are part of Bosnia and Herzegovina as federal units in the
16 common state of Yugoslavia."
17 And then III: "Rights and obligations," and so on," are to be
18 regulated by a separate decision."
19 And then IV: "The status of the municipalities in the city of
20 Sarajevo and parts of the city of Sarajevo" --
21 A. I'm sorry, I haven't got these two pages here, that's why I'm a
22 bit confused. I have page 31 and then page 33 of the text. That's why I
23 don't have the other part.
24 Q. You might have been confused, Mr. Krajisnik, my fault, by my
25 reference to page numbers in the English, which probably doesn't
1 correspond to your own language --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note we have the same problem.
3 It's 31 and then 33 --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's just the other way around.
5 It's first page 33 and then 32. So it's just that it has to be put back.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Would this resolve the problem --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
9 MR. STEWART:
10 Q. Is it that the pages are just in the wrong order --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Swapped, yes.
12 MR. STEWART: -- for you, Mr. Krajisnik
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what Mr. Krajisnik told us and that's
14 what the interpreters told us, too, yes.
15 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry. I was trying to follow it here as well,
16 Your Honour. Oh, yes. Okay. Got it. Right. Thank you.
17 Q. And so then do you see part IV then of that draft decision: "The
18 status of the municipalities in the city of Sarajevo and parts of the city
19 of Sarajevo in which the Serbian people are a majority shall be determined
20 by a separate decision."
21 You see that Mr. Krajisnik?
22 A. No, no. IV is -- oh, yes, yes.
23 Q. Was it contemplated at that time that that was a separate decision
24 which would follow quite soon, or was it that the complexities affecting
25 Sarajevo would probably require a very considerable time to sort out?
1 A. Sarajevo, from the very outbreak of the crisis, was a separate
2 problem. And to the end of the war it was always on the agenda, so to
3 speak. I can say that in most proposals there was the proposal to
4 transform Sarajevo into two wholes, not to divide it as some people have
5 imputed, but two parts where there would be municipalities with a Serb
6 majority and a territory with a Muslim majority. Two-thirds would belong
7 to the Muslim majority municipalities and one-third to the Serb majority
8 municipalities. And that is why it was stated here that the question of
9 Sarajevo would be resolved in due course because that was the most painful
10 issue of all. Every agreement envisaged that later.
11 MR. STEWART: Excuse me one moment.
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it seems something may have been
14 omitted in the translation. Mr. Sladojevic suggests to me that there was
15 a reference to the inner city in that answer.
16 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, did you make some specific reference to the inner
17 city in the course of your answer?
18 A. I think I did not mention the inner city, the centre of the city.
19 I talked about Sarajevo, that it would be transformed into two wholes, so
20 it would have been different than it was before.
21 Of course, Pale was always excluded because they had reached a
22 decision to become a separate entity as a municipality that was on the
23 outskirts of town.
24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, could you explain, when you talk about
25 two-thirds -- you talk about two separate -- into two wholes. Two-thirds
1 would belong to the Muslim majority municipalities and one-third to the
2 Serb majority municipalities, but you say that that wasn't dividing it.
3 Could you explain in what way an arrangement under which two-thirds would
4 belong to Muslim majority and one-third to Serbs is -- but was not a
6 A. First of all, Sarajevo was always divided into municipalities. So
7 it wasn't ever a single whole. We called for a different transformation
8 because there were many Serbs and Serbs were not in power anywhere. They
9 were a minority everywhere except for Pale and Ilijas, and we called for
10 the establishment of smaller municipalities because there was some
11 municipalities with a population of 150.000 people where these local
12 problems could be resolved.
13 Now, why is this not a division? If you remain within Bosnia,
14 then there's no division. It can simply be as if that municipality
15 belongs to one entity or the other. I'm talking about all plans where it
16 had been envisaged to have a solution for Sarajevo that two-thirds of this
17 Sarajevo without Pale should belong to the Muslim/Croat entity, the
18 Muslim/Croat side, so to speak, and one-third would belong to the Serb
19 side. And you have that in every agreement that was reached.
20 Until that is reached -- now, why was I saying all of this?
21 The UN, the United Nations, administration was supposed to be
22 there until a solution is solved because it was impossible to resolve the
23 issue of Sarajevo together with all of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 Mr. Owen described this the best in his book "The Balkan Odyssey."
25 You can see the maps there and everything else.
1 Q. Could you turn, please -- it's quite a long way on,
2 Mr. Krajisnik. It might be --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, if you are moving to another subject,
4 I'd rather spend the last couple of minutes on the -- in private session.
5 Mr. Krajisnik is invited to remain here, but then again as an accused to
6 follow the -- but I would --
7 MR. STEWART: Yes, of course, Your Honour, I am. Of course. No
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think D171 and 173, if I'm well -- if I
10 remember well.
11 MR. JOSSE: I'm not sure we're going to need to go into private
12 session because my learned friend Mr. Harmon tells me he has no objection.
13 We've discussed it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, nevertheless -- was that -- I think it was a
15 document where the Chamber would not have major difficulties in --
16 MR. JOSSE: Clearly if the Chamber needs reminding of the
17 contents, then we will need to go into private session. We're in -- well,
18 I'm in Your Honour's hands.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What we also could do is to see whether the
20 parties agree on the matter. If that is the case, then the Chamber of
21 course will look closer into D171 and 173 and whether it could follow the
22 parties in this respect. If not, we would revisit the matter and then in
23 private session.
24 MR. JOSSE: Of course I'm content with that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.
1 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we had no objection to both of those
2 exhibits being under seal.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll look at the matter, and we'll give either
4 our decision to you or we'll revisit the matter in private session.
5 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then --
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll finish for the day.
9 Mr. Krajisnik, the same instruction which I will repeat quite many
10 times in the future not to speak with anyone about the testimony already
11 given or still to be given.
12 We'll adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.
13 And we'll be in Courtroom I tomorrow.
14 We adjourn.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day of
17 April, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.