1 Tuesday, 27 June 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.41 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

9 We are moving to the next stage of these proceedings, after we

10 have heard the case presentation by the Prosecution and the presentation

11 of its case by the Defence. The Chamber, as it was announced yesterday,

12 the Chamber after having heard the witnesses called by the parties,

13 decided to call a number of Chamber witnesses pursuant to Rule 98 of the

14 Rules of Procedure and Evidence. Among these witnesses is Mr. Amir Delic.

15 The Chamber contacted him on the 20th of June, 2006. The Chamber then

16 informed the parties about its intention to call Mr. Delic, and Mr. Delic

17 appears today without any protective measures.

18 Mr. Josse, the Chamber was informed that you would like to address

19 Chamber in private session. Should that be when the witness has entered

20 the courtroom or before he enters the courtroom?

21 MR. JOSSE: Before, please.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we turn into private session.

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5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness,

8 Mr. Delic, into the courtroom.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Mr. Delic, I assume. Mr. Delic,

11 before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure and

12 Evidence require to you make a solemn declaration that you will speak the

13 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The usher will now hand

14 out the text of this solemn declaration in your own language, and may I

15 invite to you make that solemn declaration.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

18 WITNESS: AMIR DELIC

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Delic.

22 Mr. Delic, you are called as a witness by this Chamber. I would

23 first like you to tell the Court your full name.

24 A. Amir Delic.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And your date of birth, Mr. Delic, is?

1 A. The 18th of September, 1958.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We'll move for a moment into private

3 session.

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar, could you please give D116A -- I

9 wanted to say to Mr. Usher to have it put on the ELMO.

10 Mr. Delic --

11 Could we zoom out a little bit so we have the whole of the

12 photograph on -- yes. Thank you.

13 Mr. Delic, this photograph is in evidence before this Chamber. I

14 would like to ask you a few questions about this photograph. First of

15 all, do you recognise the persons on this photograph, and would you please

16 start from the left and tell us who is on the photograph and what

17 positions they held at the time?

18 A. The first person on the left is myself. Next to me is Mr. Zunic.

19 I think he was a representative of the army of the Autonomous District of

20 Krajina, from Dvor. I knew him personally before. He was the technical

21 manager of the Dvor hauliers. I am an engineer in traffic, and I worked

22 at the Bosanski Novi and we were business associates. Next to him is the

23 chief -- the municipality mayor, Radomir Pasic. Next to him is the

24 representative of the international community.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I -- you were pointing already at the

1 fourth person but you say the one in the dark suit is Mr. Pasic?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then the next one with the -- without a

4 jacket is you said --

5 A. Without the jacket, holding a pencil and a pad in his hand, is the

6 gentleman representing the UNHCR, and I believe he was called, although I

7 can't be certain, Jansen, Nilsen or something such-like.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the next one with the camouflage

9 coloured --

10 A. Wearing a camouflage uniform is Mr. Nikola, also from Dvor Na Uni.

11 To my knowledge, he was the police commander there.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then the last person?

13 A. The last person is Mr. Emir Puric, my friend and my neighbour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Delic, do you remember the occasion at

15 which this photograph was taken?

16 A. Yes. The photograph was taken during the negotiations process at

17 the bridge between Bosanski Novi and the Matijevic neighbourhood. This is

18 a bridge on the Una and the village lies in the direction of Dvor Na Uni.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was this the first negotiations you held at

20 that time or was it a follow-up of any earlier negotiations?

21 A. This was a follow-up of earlier negotiations.

22 JUDGE ORIE: How many earlier negotiations had been -- had taken

23 place?

24 A. I can't tell you the precise number, but I can chronologically set

25 out the events in the period.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll come to that later.

2 What was the subject of the negotiations? What were you

3 negotiating about?

4 A. The subject of negotiations was the departure of Croats and --

5 Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Muslims in a convoy from Bosanski Novi.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Why did this meeting take place on a bridge?

7 A. Well, I would have to give you a more general picture, and I

8 should perhaps start with the start of the negotiations, how they came

9 about, if you allow me.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please try to listen to me carefully as well.

11 I'll give you an opportunity now to start to tell us on from the start

12 what caused the need for negotiations, but I might have some questions in

13 between, so I would then stop you and perhaps ask for further details.

14 But please start with telling us what caused you, or if you are not

15 involved as a person but as a representative of any group or organisation,

16 what caused you to enter into negotiations at all.

17 A. In 1991 and 1992, the situation in Bosanski Novi was disastrous;

18 one could put it that way. All the events taking place in the Republic of

19 Croatia had a direct impact on the situation in Bosanski Novi. That

20 period I won't be touching upon again. I just wanted to introduce the

21 situation.

22 On the 11th of May, 1992, in the early morning hours, shooting

23 started all around the town. Shots were fired from various weapons. One

24 could hear individual shots --

25 JUDGE ORIE: May I stop you there already? On the 11th of May,

1 where were you living at the time? In town, in Bosanski Novi town? Or in

2 a --

3 A. I wasn't married at the time. I lived on my own in a two-bedroom

4 apartment in a building called Sivi Dom. My parents had their own home in

5 the immediate vicinity of that building within some 200 or 300 metres.

6 On the 10th of May, in the afternoon hours, a strange atmosphere

7 reigned in the town. My brother, my sister-in-law and their children,

8 myself, neighbour Admir Ceric and lady neighbour Amra Dautcehajic, went to

9 my apartment. We left the family house and went into my apartment in the

10 building where we believed we would be safer. At the time there were

11 uniformed persons going from door to door, taking away the male

12 population. That was why we thought that as a group we would be more

13 protected and safer. That is why we all went to my apartment.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Are you talking about the town only and are you

15 talking about what you observed personally?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us, if you say taking away the male

18 population, what exactly did you see in that respect?

19 A. Specifically, there was a red van, Renault Traffic making rounds

20 in the town, and it was common knowledge that there were uniformed persons

21 who would round up people and then take them to -- for interrogation to

22 either the police station or the fire department building. I myself

23 didn't see any of the persons who had been taken over there, but I did see

24 the van going around the town from my apartment window.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you went to your apartment. What did you

1 further observe?

2 A. We were in the apartment. As I said, in the morning, shooting was

3 heard. There was live coverage of the events on Radio Bosanski Novi.

4 Muslims were called upon over the radio to surrender weapons. And they

5 were told that no harm would come to them.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Was that call to hand in weapons, was that

7 specifically addressed to Muslims or to other nationalities as well?

8 A. It was addressed to Muslims because the numbers of Croats and

9 other non-Serbs living in Bosanski Novi were negligible.

10 I apologise. I would like to say the following, that probably

11 being excited here, I just want to touch upon the following. The -- it

12 wasn't on that date that my brother and my sister-in-law and their

13 children went to my apartment; rather, that happened on the 31st of May or

14 between the 31st of May and the 1st of June. On that previous date it was

15 just myself. I was by myself in my apartment. The rest of my statement,

16 however, is accurate.

17 In the morning, and it was a Monday, we were not able to go to

18 work. In -- during the morning, I went back to my parents' house, to see

19 them. Since my home is directly opposite from a school centre, people

20 from the neighbourhood of Prekosanje and Urije, under the escort of a blue

21 combat vehicle and armed soldiers, whilst carrying visible white flags,

22 arrived to the school centre. Most of the people were put up at the

23 school centre. There were women, children, men, elderly people. In fact,

24 that was the entire population of these two neighbourhoods.

25 We --

1 JUDGE ORIE: May I stop you? We have received a map in evidence.

2 You were talking about Urije. Is that Urije which is on a map a little

3 bit to the east of town?

4 A. Yes. Upstream, the Sana river. Prekosanje is across the Sana

5 river.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And Urije is at a distance of some three kilometres

7 from the centre of town, as I see on a map? If would you like to have a

8 look at it you can take a look, but is that approximately the distance?

9 A. Yes, roughly.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

11 A. Us neighbours who had their homes across from the school centre

12 took up food and other items to take them to the people, to help them,

13 and I mean those who were put up at the school centre. Some of the people

14 who had relatives or friends in the Vidorija neighbourhood where the

15 school centre is were able to find accommodation in private homes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you did you recognise any of the people

17 that were brought to that school? Did you know any of them?

18 A. Yes. For instance, Professor Jasmin Custic and his family.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Now the population of the areas you talked about,

20 including Urije, do you know whether people living there were of what

21 nationality or ethnicity mainly?

22 A. Mostly Muslims, Bosniaks.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see any Serb among the people who were taken

24 to the school? So I'm not talking about who took them to the school but

25 people that were taken to the school centre.

1 A. No. At Prekosanje the people who refused to abandon their homes

2 were killed at the doorstep of their homes. I didn't witness that myself,

3 but this is what I was told by the people who came to the school centre.

4 Among others, the father of my friend Elvira Mujkic was killed at

5 the threshold of his house.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you told us that people were taken to the

7 school centre but some who had, who would know people living around in the

8 neighbourhood, that they were able to find accommodation in private homes.

9 Does that mean that they were not bound to stay in the school centre but

10 they were free to go to friends' and stay with them? Is that a correct

11 understanding?

12 A. Yes. The town was divided by check-points. This part of town,

13 that's to say from Vidorija mosque, next to the hotel had its check-point.

14 That was where people entered this part of town. And from that point, all

15 the way to the other end of the town, at Mlakve, they could be

16 accommodated wherever they pleased. In other words, if they had friends

17 or relatives there, they could stay at their places. Those who had

18 nowhere to go stayed at the school centre.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please continue to tell us what further

20 happened on that day and perhaps the following days.

21 A. We were trying to help those people to bring them food, freshen

22 them up, and that was where they spent the night. Generally the situation

23 in the town was settling down. Some of the people even started returning

24 to their homes, if their homes hadn't been burned down. Of course, it

25 took a lot of courage to go back, but people were highly motivated because

1 they had left their homes with only a few personal belongings.

2 This sort of atmosphere existed in the town until the 31st of May,

3 which was a Sunday. I was mentioning the afternoon hours, and my brother

4 and my sister-in-law and Cehajic, my neighbour, that was when all of us

5 went to my apartment. At about 10.00 or 11.00 at night, at any rate it

6 was night-time, shooting resumed. Different cars with the rotating light

7 and sirens circled the town, and torching started. From my living-room

8 window and balcony, one could see the town mosque aflame as well as the

9 Vidorija mosque. That was also burning.

10 At the other end of the apartment, there was the kitchen from

11 where I could see two houses on fire across from the street next to the

12 tunnel. That was the house of Heder Sead and the house of Sead Ceric.

13 Sead Heder with his wife, children and his elderly mother fled to the

14 entranceway of our building, of our apartment block, and I took them into

15 my apartment.

16 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you the persons you are talking about,

17 starting on the 31st of May, could you tell us what was their nationality

18 or ethnicity?

19 A. Muslims, Bosniaks.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And the owners of the houses that you saw to be

21 torched, could you tell us what their nationality and ethnicity was?

22 A. They were Muslims, Sead Heder, and Sead, Seric, also known as Sejo

23 [phoen], or Ribar [phoen].

24 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any knowledge as to who put those houses

25 in flames?

1 A. No, no. I said that military vehicles were going around the town,

2 and those were Pinzgauers with rotating lights, and sirens could be heard

3 wailing, but I can't say who they were. We were only able to see two

4 persons running toward the house and then we could see these houses

5 suddenly on flame, especially Heder's house was -- caught fire quite

6 quickly because it was an old house, a wooden house.

7 In the immediate vicinity of my house, there is the handicraft or

8 artisan's centre with some ten small workshops. We saw people entering

9 them and then coming out carrying things. They were probably throwing

10 grenades at them because we could hear explosions afterwards.

11 JUDGE ORIE: What then happened?

12 A. That lasted all night. I have to say that the telephone lines

13 were still working, and one could communicate with friends and family and

14 we talked to them to find out whether they were still at their homes and

15 what was going on with them.

16 The next morning, groups of armed soldiers carrying automatic

17 rifles were deployed in my street. We called it under the Jablanica. It

18 was a former thoroughfare, former Boris Kidric Street; it's a dead end.

19 So groups of two, three, four soldiers remained deployed in the street at

20 a distance of 50 or so metres from one another, whereas two soldiers

21 entered my entranceway. They went from one flat to another, entered and

22 took out all the men.

23 They were carrying a list. There was a list of names, including

24 my name, and a number of a pistol against it. The fact is that as the

25 technical director of the forwarding company, Kozara Prevoz in

1 Bosanski Novi, according to regulations, was supposed to have a pistol,

2 and it was properly licensed by the MUP, the authorities. I don't know

3 which year it was issued, 1989 or 1990. Anyway, they found my name and

4 they asked me to hand over the gun. I did hand it over. I asked --

5 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one question in this respect? You

6 earlier told us that Muslims were called upon to hand over arms through

7 the radio. Was that registered weapons included or unregistered -- and --

8 yes?

9 A. No. That was on the 11th of May.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 A. On the radio, when we had this practically live broadcast of the

12 war, wherein the Muslims were attacking the town, they read out around ten

13 names on the radio who allegedly had rifles. They even read out the

14 numbers of those rifles. In that period, I'm not sure whether it was the

15 11th of May or some other date, but it was related to the -- it was around

16 the 11th of May, the president of the social accountancy service of

17 Bosanski Novi, Mr. Muhamedagic addressed people over the radio and said

18 that the people who were read out as having the weapons actually had them,

19 they should hand them over. I don't know what came of all that, whether

20 the weapons were surrendered, whether they had been purchased in the first

21 place. I don't know what happened to those ten persons. Some of them

22 were allegedly arrested, but I really don't know what became of them.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would not mind, I would like to take you

24 back again to that 11th of May. You started your last answer by saying,

25 on the radio, when we had this practically live broadcast of the war

1 wherein the Muslims were attacking the town, you have not told us before

2 about an attack by Muslims on the town. Could you please explain when

3 that took place, how it happened, from where?

4 A. When that gun-fire started in early morning hours on the 11th of

5 May, it was said on the radio that Muslims were attacking the place, that

6 Green Berets are sowing death, that snipers were shooting all over town,

7 and what remains particularly etched in my memory is that the Sudic

8 [phoen] house which was at the entrance to the Urije neighbourhood had

9 people in it shooting at Repovac from sniper rifles. An appeal was made

10 to them to surrender, but according to my knowledge, although I was not an

11 eyewitness, none of it happened. There was no such gun-fire from Muslim

12 guns or no such organisation. At that time, people from Prekosanje, as I

13 said earlier, were escorted to the school centre by combat vehicles

14 through the high street. From Urije and Prekosanje.

15 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you very specifically: Is there any other

16 source that would ever, whether you consider it a reliable source or not a

17 reliable source, but was there any other source that confirmed what you

18 heard on the radio, that is that Muslims were using firearms attacking the

19 town or at least I take it attacking non-Muslims from Muslim positions?

20 A. No. There were no Muslim positions.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you in that respect whether you ever

22 heard or received any information about an attack on a military police

23 patrol which was passing through a Muslim settlement in Bosanski Novi

24 municipality on the 10th or around the 10th of May?

25 A. Yes. That was also announced on the radio that a patrol had been

1 attacked, a patrol of the military police or some other police force. It

2 was allegedly attacked in Blagaj which was seven or eight kilometres away

3 from Bosanski Novi in the direction of Prijedor. And practically that is

4 what started everything else.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps I should invite you now to continue

6 what you were telling us about what happened after the 31st of May, when

7 soldiers were taking positions at least at the distance of 50 metres,

8 going from -- to the flats. Yes.

9 A. They were not taking up positions. They were standing in the

10 middle of the road, in groups of two, three, four, soldiers. Whereas two

11 soldiers entered my building. They were armed with automatic rifles and

12 they went from one flat to another.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know what forces they belonged to?

14 A. They wore military uniforms.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any idea about their nationality,

16 ethnicity?

17 A. Well, I didn't ask them for IDs and I cannot know but I suppose

18 they were Serbs.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

20 A. Because at that time, when call-ups for mobilisation arrived in

21 the post, Muslims did not respond to call-ups. I did not receive one

22 myself because my wartime assignment was in my company, but of course I

23 didn't get any.

24 As for the apartment --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps could you identify them on the basis of

1 their uniforms as members of -- well, whatever armed force, police forces,

2 TO forces, regular army?

3 A. Well, they wore the uniforms of the Yugoslav People's Army, the

4 weapons, trousers, shirts, belts, everything that belongs to a uniform. I

5 cannot tell you who wore which emblem, but I know that most of them had

6 the emblem with the four letters S, but I cannot say with any certainty

7 whether the two particular soldiers who came into my building had that

8 emblem or not.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the 4 Ss is a Serb symbol? Is that a

10 correct understanding?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So please continue now where the two soldiers came to

13 your apartment.

14 A. So they found my name on the list. I handed over to them my

15 pistol. But my brother's name was also on the list, because my brother

16 was the commercial director of Stana service company and he also had a

17 pistol licensed, et cetera. Since that pistol was in the house, because

18 my brother occupied the upper floor of the house, we were taken to that

19 house at gunpoint so that my brother can surrender his pistol.

20 We asked the soldiers to give us receipts confirming that we had

21 surrendered the pistols, because we were afraid that somebody else might

22 come and ask for the same pistols again and we would not be able to prove

23 that we had already surrendered them. The soldiers told us that there is

24 no reason to fear that, that nobody else would come to ask for the same

25 thing, after which we were taken back outside our building, and we were

1 taken further up the street, to the square near the huntsman's hall, the

2 huntsman's lodge, and there was a sort of podium put up there for

3 performances and holidays and such. We were made to kneel and face the

4 wall. We were forced to sing songs such as, "Comrade Tito," "Oj Kozara

5 mountain" and I don't know what else. The soldiers fired around us,

6 cursed and generally abused us, seeming to enjoy it.

7 Then a bus belonging to my company arrived driven by Mr. Gajic,

8 Mirko Gajic, a driver of the company, and they told us to get on the bus.

9 When I entered the bus, it was already half full, so the driver made the

10 man from the front seat get up so that I could sit down. I didn't want

11 him to do that, and I sat down somewhere in the middle row. We were taken

12 to the Sloboda stadium in Mlakve. That was around 10.00 or 11.00 when we

13 arrived at the stadium.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you between, Mr. Gajic, what was his

15 nationality or ethnicity?

16 A. A Serb.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed. You said you were taken to the

18 Mlakve stadium.

19 A. Of course, the stadium was encircled by soldiers and guards, and

20 they let us in on to the grass field. There were already some people

21 there. I don't know how many, but there were a lot of them. And all that

22 day, buses kept bringing people to the stadium. And in the following

23 days, the red van that kept driving around the town also brought some

24 individuals, and there were also some people who walked to the stadium

25 themselves. They came out of fear that they would be found at home and

1 simply disappear. Homes were being searched, and once they were searched

2 then the men from those homes were rounded up, had to hoist a white sheet

3 outside the window which was a sign that the house was clear, quote

4 unquote.

5 At my home, the wife, children and mother of this man Sead, Heder

6 whose house had been burned down were left behind. As for us, we remained

7 at the stadium until Friday afternoon. I think it was the 5th or

8 the 6th -- sorry, the 5th of June, when we were released and set free from

9 the stadium to go home.

10 On our first day at the stadium, we were given some tea and some

11 liver paste but there was not enough for everybody so we had to share as

12 best we could. And later on, since they obviously had not enough food for

13 all of us, they allowed the families from the surrounding houses in that

14 neighbourhood, Vidorija, to bring food to the stadium. So wives and

15 mothers from the surrounding houses would put up the food on a table, the

16 soldiers would inspect it, and then give it to us.

17 We slept on the grass, whereas some people slept on the bleachers

18 or in changing rooms, on pallets, anything they could get their hands on.

19 One of the soldiers used a bullhorn to call out the names of

20 Muslims, some particular Muslims, who were supposed to come out of the

21 crowd, and one of them was Dzemo Sefer, the director of Privredna Banka in

22 Prijedor, who was also a neighbour of mine. He was taken away somewhere,

23 and I later learned that he had been taken to the police station. Some

24 other people were called out and taken away, either to the hotel or to the

25 fire department building for interrogation, and everything else that was

1 implied.

2 And one day - I think it was a Wednesday, but I'm not sure, it

3 could have been Thursday as well - some buses arrived.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Delic, could you tell us that

5 you said -- first of all, one question. When, as you said, these men

6 were -- people were rounded up, taken to the stadium where you stayed

7 until, as you said, until Friday afternoon, does that mean that during the

8 days you had then stayed at the stadium, you were not free to leave the

9 stadium but that you were forced to stay within it?

10 A. Of course. All around the stadium there were armed guards.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You said you were allowed to leave the stadium on

12 that Friday afternoon. Was everyone allowed to leave the stadium, as far

13 as you're aware of, or was it you and others but not everyone?

14 A. Well, I mentioned Dzemo Sefer and some other people who were

15 called out before we were released and were taken away somewhere. And

16 after that, it was said that the rest can go home.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you told us that you learned later

18 that they were taken to either the hotel or the fire department building

19 for interrogation. How did you learn about that?

20 A. Since that part of town called Vidorija where my house is is

21 small, we all know each other, because we all grew up together, because we

22 were neighbours, and I know that when we left the stadium, a group of

23 women was walking towards the municipality building to see what would

24 become of us. One of them was Edina, the wife of Dzemo Sefer, Doda Molak,

25 a maths teacher, and Rada Imsirevic, wife of Edo Imsirevic. However,

1 nobody at the municipality wanted to receive them or give them an answer,

2 and I found out, when I was released from the stadium, since we were not

3 allowed to move out of our neighbourhood, we spent our time talking to

4 each other and telling each other what we knew, sharing information.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take you back then to the moments where

6 you said that buses arrived that could have been on the Thursday, some

7 buses arrived. Where were you when those buses arrived? You returned to

8 your own place before that?

9 A. No. I was at the stadium. By that time, nobody had gone back

10 home. They told us when the buses arrived that we should all gather in

11 the middle of the stadium and sit down. One of the commanders addressed

12 us through a bullhorn, I know he was some sort of officer because he had

13 some rank insignia but I couldn't recognise it, and he said that everybody

14 who wanted to volunteer to join the Serb army should come out to sign up

15 and go to the front line. And that started chaos among us.

16 People asked a group of us who were sort of more educated or

17 better known in the community what was the right thing to do, because we

18 were all taken aback and astonished, and people took the following course

19 of action. If there were two brothers together or a father and son

20 together at the stadium, then one of them would sign up as a Serb

21 volunteer and the other would stay at the stadium because the reasoning

22 was that if they were not both on the same side, one would survive and be

23 able to provide a living to their family. Some people fainted. I think

24 three busloads of men, all in all, signed up. Of course, the army made

25 records, lists, et cetera.

1 According to the stories I heard later, those men were taken to

2 Banja Luka to the Kozara barracks. However, they were brought back

3 because Muslims or Turks, as they called them at the time, were not needed

4 or wanted in the Serb army.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you will continue, next Friday were you

6 allowed to go home. Please keep in mind that one of the reasons why we

7 called you as a witness is to hear more about the negotiations. We of

8 course allow you to tell us what happened and what led to these

9 negotiations. This Chamber also heard already some evidence on some of

10 these events, so if you would please move forward and keep in the back of

11 your mind that it's all an introduction why these negotiations were held.

12 Please proceed.

13 A. If I could just make a few more comments on the story and then I

14 will move on.

15 When we were at the stadium my uncle, Hasan Delic, was with me,

16 and I mean at the camp on the stadium. We agreed that none of us should

17 sleep at our homes upon returning there because Serbs might come around at

18 night to round us up. I was sleeping in a shed. My uncle was sleeping at

19 a place near the marketplace. That was on Friday evening.

20 On Saturday, at around 10.00 in the morning, he returned home.

21 Soon afterwards, he was taken out by some people and disappeared, went

22 missing. Several days later, we were called to identify a body, and it

23 was his body. He had been killed. His body had been abandoned near the

24 Lignosper factory compound. I buried him in the town cemetery. There

25 were nine bullets in all in the body, one of them at the back of his head.

1 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you who called you to identify the body of

2 your uncle?

3 A. My uncle -- my aunt, Marica, was called to identify him because

4 she had reported him missing. She went to the police station, to the fire

5 department building, to the hotel building, but nobody was able to tell

6 her where he was. Finally, they called her over the phone to come to the

7 mortuary to identify his body. I went over there with my other uncle who

8 is now dead. We identified his body.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Has it ever been established or investigated who was

10 responsible for the killing of your uncle?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

13 A. I wish to make one more point concerning the stadium. While we

14 were at the stadium, we were able to see people in white uniforms with

15 binoculars, watching us. They were watching in the direction of the

16 stadium and, of course, you have to keep in mind that the border between

17 Croatia and Bosnia is near.

18 When we went out of there on Friday afternoon, I met with my

19 neighbour, Azemir Ceric, who had also been held at the stadium.

20 Previously he was a police commander. I also met up with Mr. Emin Puric,

21 another neighbour of mine. We were discussing what we should do next to

22 save our skins. Since we had a common friend, Dragomir Drazic, a lawyer

23 who used to work for the municipality, Emin Puric rang him, I believe it

24 was a Sunday, and asked him to see us. He agreed to meet with us on

25 Monday.

1 I have to say that in the days and months leading up to that

2 point, people who had had money and valuables were paying to be allowed to

3 leave Bosnia through the Glina area for the purposes of medical treatment,

4 quote unquote. That was the way for them to leave the area together with

5 their families. I believe the sum required was 3.000 German marks per

6 head, per capita, allegedly for medical treatment.

7 We knew that there was an office of an international organisation,

8 I will it was the EU monitors, UNPROFOR and so on, at Dvor Na Uni. Over

9 the weekend, three of us decided to ask Drazic to help us leave

10 Bosanski Novi somehow because the situation and matters in Bosanski Novi

11 came to a head. He received us, and we told him that we wanted to leave

12 the area and to save our skins. We said that we intended to go to Dvor.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. A few questions in between. You were talking

14 about people in white uniforms observing you. Were they on BiH territory

15 or were they on the other side of the river? From where did they observe

16 you when you were in the stadium?

17 A. They were in Croatia.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you said payments were made up to 3.000

19 German marks per head for -- allegedly for medical treatment. Payments

20 were made to whom?

21 A. You see, people had different connections or they tried to get

22 hold of influential people, both in Bosanski Novi and at Dvor. The

23 important thing was to cross the check-point on the bridge, and then once

24 you reached Dvor, the people there would take you to Karlovac, where one

25 would enter the Croatian territory. I don't know the specifics of it but

1 I know of people who had left the area in that way.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you understood that to be paying for buying

3 your way out of the area? Is that a correct understanding of what you

4 said? But do you have any further --

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any further details as to whom the

7 payments were made?

8 A. No. Of course, influential people who were able to materialise

9 this and who made promises to do that were paid. Certainly these were no

10 ordinary privates or soldiers.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 Mr. Delic, finally, Mr. Drazic was of what nationality or

13 ethnicity?

14 A. Serb ethnicity. I have to say that Mr. Drazic was a work

15 associate of Mr. Puric and a friend of Azemir Ceric because Drazic's

16 daughter was a basketball player, and whilst they worked at Sana, Sana

17 sponsored the basketball club. Mr. Ceric himself played basketball. I

18 had business connections with Mr. Drazic while he worked at Lignosper. I

19 can say that we were quite close acquaintances and that was the reason why

20 we approached him to assist us.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Delic, I'm looking at the clock. It's time for a

22 break.

23 Mr. Delic, perhaps during the break, you can -- I take it that we

24 are now approximately at the point where you start speaking with or

25 negotiating with whomever. So I would like very much to spend, well,

1 let's say the next half an hour after the break on to whom you did speak,

2 what was the subject and perhaps first take us through the main lines and

3 if we need to know any further details, we'll certainly ask you about it.

4 We will have a break until 11.30 but then really 11.30.

5 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Delic, before the break, we came to the point

8 where you and I think you said Mr. Puric wanted to discuss with

9 Mr. Drazic, who was a Serb acquaintance of you, what to do. Could you

10 please continue?

11 A. [Microphone not activated].

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One second.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He received us on Monday in the

15 municipal building. Azemir Ceric, Emin Puric and I were at the meeting.

16 We asked him to help us in fleeing the area. We also told him that we

17 intended to go to Dvor to apply to the representatives of the

18 international community there to help us. He said that he was unable to

19 give us an answer there and then but that he would look into what the

20 situation was in the municipality and that he would get in touch with us.

21 The following day he got in touch with Mr. Puric and said that the

22 authorities were not opposed to us leaving and approaching the

23 international community. He thought that we would be able to leave the

24 town without any difficulties.

25 The following day, in my father's -- in my brother's car, Emin

1 Puric, a Serb friend of ours -- or, rather, there was Emin Puric and I and

2 a Serb friend of ours whose name I do not wish to mention here, I don't

3 want to cause any problems to him, drove us across the bridge. We went

4 past the check-point there and stopped at the hotel in Dvor Na Uni. We

5 were received by a lady there, I believe her name was Mirjana, and I think

6 she was an interpreter there. We waited there for quite some time, three

7 to four hours, before some people who had their head office in Topusko

8 arrived, and they were the people we were supposed to talk to. Two of

9 them came and I think that they were European monitors.

10 We told them the whole story and related all the previous events,

11 just as I have done to you now. We signed statements, I believe they

12 were, or minutes or something of the sort, and I believe they also took

13 our photographs. They told us to go back home and wait. We went back

14 home, and several days passed without us receiving any news.

15 I have to tell you that on our return, and it was in the evening,

16 we decided that we should act as representatives of our neighbourhood,

17 representing our neighbours and relatives. Neither I nor Mr. Puric were

18 political activists. We were not members of any political party or any

19 political organisation for that matter. Since our houses were next to

20 each other, we decided nevertheless that we should represent them. On

21 that day, we had set out early in the morning and returned back home late

22 in the afternoon. People were already concerned about us and worried for

23 us. At any rate, we became representatives of -- or leaders, so to speak,

24 of the people there, of the citizens.

25 Several days passed without us having received any news, which was

1 why we asked this Serb friend of ours to take us back to Dvor again. We

2 went to the headquarters of the Danish Battalion in the construction

3 company complex called Rad. We were stopped at the gate where we were

4 told that they were aware of our case, that it was being looked into and

5 that we should go back home. We returned again. I can't give you the

6 precise dates of all these trips because it's been a while.

7 One day, a UNHCR vehicle showed up somewhere between Emin's house

8 and my own. There were three people in the car. One of them was the

9 person depicted on the photo called either Jansen or Nilsen, an

10 interpreter and a journalist. We were sitting in Emin Puric's house.

11 They brought Drazic along. We sat down and talked. He kept telling us

12 that they didn't have the mandate to help us move out, that it amounted to

13 ethnic cleansing, that they were merely able to provide us with

14 humanitarian aid and food to alleviate the crisis, but that we should be

15 patient. We would not agree to that. We insisted on us leaving and -- in

16 view of these preceding events and the general situation.

17 Several days later, we went to the Bosanski Novi municipal

18 building to see the municipal mayor, Radomir Pasic. These were supposed

19 to be negotiations, talks. He told us that they were not opposed to the

20 idea of us moving out because we thought that we could not stay there any

21 longer, especially in view much the fact that he could not guarantee

22 safety for us. He said that in agreement with the municipal Crisis Staff,

23 a decision would be taken regulating who would be able to leave and how.

24 He said that most of the people would be allowed to leave but not the

25 extremists. I don't know what he meant by that.

1 However, at a later stage, rules were placed next to the entrance

2 to the municipal building regulating who was able to leave. I was not

3 allowed to go into these institutions where one could obtain documents

4 allowing the person to leave and my brother had to go instead. We had to,

5 for instance, obtain a document from the land registry office of

6 Bosanski Novi certifying that we did not own any properties, or if we

7 owned any properties, we were required to draft a contract where we would

8 leave the property to the Serbs or to the Serb state or simply renouncing

9 the property.

10 Another document that had to be made was a list of all the members

11 of the household. The third document that had to be produced was the

12 certificate certifying that we had no previous convictions. Another

13 document had to certify that we had covered all the utility bills, that

14 there were no outstanding bills to all the utility companies in the town,

15 including electricity, gas, water and so on and so forth. Another

16 document had to be produced which stated that the municipal Secretariat

17 for National Defence allowed that particular military conscript to leave

18 the area of the municipality of Bosanski Novi. Another document had to be

19 obtained from the municipal police allowing the applicant to leave. I

20 forget whether there were any other documents, but all the documents had

21 to state that what we were doing was on a voluntary basis and without

22 duress.

23 There were stories around the town that once a person went to the

24 police station to obtain one such document, he or she would be arrested.

25 This was a relatively small town, and people knew what was going on. I

1 didn't dare to go obtain documents for me. My brother did that instead,

2 and I stayed at home in hiding.

3 As far as the negotiations are concerned for the free departure of

4 the convoy, at one such meeting it was said that the SAO Krajina, or,

5 rather, the Dvor Na Uni authorities would allow us free passage through

6 SAO Krajina, and the two gentlemen depicted on the photograph, Mr. Zunic

7 and Mr. Nikola, orally confirmed that. However, the problem lay in the

8 fact that the Republic of Croatia refused to receive any further convoys

9 with refugees. We insisted that we should be allowed to leave.

10 Mr. Dragomir Pasic also insisted with the UNHCR representatives that we be

11 allowed to leave. They told us, in turn, that we would not be allowed

12 entry into the Republic of Croatia, or, rather, that we would not be

13 allowed to get past the bridge, as we used to say. But since the

14 situation was dreadful, we were resolute in our wish to leave. This took

15 place on the 16th of July.

16 Meanwhile, representatives of the international community showed

17 up at the bridge and invited us for negotiations. In fact, they tried

18 once again to dissuade us from leaving, pointing to all the difficulties

19 and risks that it involved. I have a tape with me here where part of the

20 negotiations was recorded, not the entire negotiations but one part of it

21 anyway. One can see there what the subject of discussion was. We fixed

22 the date of departure of the convoy, regardless of the fact that we did

23 not have the consent of the Croatian authorities allowing us to enter

24 there. This was supposed to be a trip without an end, or at any rate

25 without a certain ending.

1 I believe it was a Thursday, early in the morning, people started

2 lining up. Even my own company, Kozara Prevoz, charged people for the

3 transport services; that's to say the people who didn't have their own

4 means of transport. Generally people were allowed to leave in their own

5 vehicles, although a large amount of vehicles had been requisitioned

6 earlier on or simply confiscated by military personnel which meant that

7 quite a few people didn't have their own cars. That is why the

8 municipality organised Kozara Prevoz's buses and lorries, trailer trucks,

9 that were supposed to serve as means of transport.

10 On that day, on the 16th, in the morning, people started lining up

11 in a column. In my assessment, there were 4.000 to 4.500 people in that

12 column. I wasn't at the head of the column, I was somewhere midway, in my

13 father's car, where there was my mother, father and one of my brother's

14 children. Mr. Puric was called out of the column. In the column there

15 were first buses, then lorries, and at the end there were personal

16 vehicles, cars. He led the negotiations with the UNPROFOR, who wouldn't

17 allow us to enter Croatia. This stalemate went on for hours. Sometime

18 after noon, one of the representatives of the Danish battalion told us

19 that we should proceed to Dubica where we would be allowed to enter

20 Croatia.

21 Let me go back to explain this to you. There had been earlier

22 discussions concerning this, when Croatia would not allow the convoy to

23 enter. Two alternatives were proposed. One was to enter near Sunja into

24 Petrinja, and the other, which we had suggested, was to go in the

25 direction of Cazinska Krajina, Otoka, whereas Mr. Pasic suggested that we

1 should go in the direction of Travnik. However, we refused to go to

2 Travnik because the trip would be terribly long, and based on the

3 information available to us, killings were being committed over there and

4 all the other atrocities that happened in this war. This was at Vlasic

5 and in the direction of Travnik.

6 Now, as for the route toward Otaka it was automatically refused by

7 Mr. Pasic. It wasn't accepted as an option at all. And we did not

8 discuss these two routes as possible options for the convoy. The only

9 remaining route was that toward the Republic of Croatia and on to third

10 countries.

11 Sometime around noon, or just after noon, the entire convoy set

12 out towards Bosanska Dubica. I was a broken man by then. I was unable to

13 talk. The entire burden of the negotiations fell on Mr. Emin Puric.

14 President of the municipality of Bosanski Novi, Radomir Pasic, was at the

15 head of the convoy, and he led it. He had Mr. Dragomir Drazic with him.

16 As it was entering Dubica the convoy was stopped, and the chief of that

17 municipality did not allow the convoy to enter Dubica. The convoy was

18 kept for hours on that road. As Mr. Puric later told me, he went with a

19 delegation to the bridge in Dubica to negotiate entry for the convoy

20 without any success. The convoy was turned back and we returned to

21 Bosanska Kostajnica. The first bridge in Kostajnica was crossed by the

22 convoy. However, at the next bridge, the great Una bridge, we couldn't

23 cross because we were not allowed to. It was already late at night,

24 10.00, 11.00, maybe even midnight.

25 When Mr. Pasic signed Emin that we could go back, we led the

1 convoy back towards Bosanski Novi. It was already past midnight when we

2 arrived, at 1.00 or 2.00 a.m. Many people were by that time unable to go

3 back to their homes because Serbs had occupied them as soon as we left or

4 even before we left. The houses that were still available were populated

5 by the people who had come back, and the situation in town at the time was

6 insufferable. I was completely unable to talk by then, unable to speak.

7 It was Monday, and if we needed to, we could now calculate the

8 date even, when an UNHCR vehicle arrived, bringing approval from the

9 German Red Cross that we were ready to receive us and that the Republic of

10 Croatia was prepared to allow us transit.

11 A new departure of the convoy was scheduled for the 23rd of July.

12 There were no longer any problems for the convoy then, and the

13 international force accompanied us all the way, such as the UNHCR, and

14 people who were short of fuel themselves gave us ten or so litres of fuel

15 each. They gave us packed lunch and anything they could afford to give to

16 help, especially the women, children and the elderly and the infirm.

17 The second convoy was significantly larger, perhaps 9.000 or maybe

18 9.500 people. Later, when we had gotten out, when I was in Croatia, the

19 media mentioned figures of 10 or 11.000 but I still believe it was closer

20 to 9.000 or 9 and a half thousand. Some people who had still not boarded

21 the convoy when it departed stayed behind, and armed soldiers started

22 going door-to-door, forcing them to leave, and a few buses stayed behind

23 the convoy to receive them.

24 Nada Vorona and Ante Sucic, neighbours of mine, were thus forced

25 out of their homes and forced to join the convoy with a delay, together

1 with a number of other people. I don't know how many. We arrived at

2 Karlovac, at the UNPROFOR check-point, and people were transferred from

3 lorries and buses to UNHCR lorries to be taken to the sports hall and the

4 stadium, I believe, in Karlovac, whereas others who travelled in their own

5 cars were allowed passage. That lasted until late at night.

6 Together with my family I left the sports hall to go to Zagreb to

7 my close friend's, and that's where I spent the rest of the war, in

8 Zagreb. Other people in the sports hall were listed, and then whole

9 trains arrived from Germany to take them to Germany. I don't know how

10 many trains there were and to which cities in Germany they travelled. I

11 really don't know.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Delic, we might have a few additional questions.

13 Could I first ask you, you told us that at the second time you were

14 scheduled to leave, that is on the 23rd of July, there were some 4.000 to

15 5.000 people and then you told us about a second convoy which was

16 significantly larger. And then you said the following. You said: "Some

17 people who had still not boarded the convoy when it departed stayed

18 behind, and armed soldiers started going door-to-door forcing them to

19 leave and a few buses stayed behind the convoy to receive them."

20 This last portion of your testimony, is that about the first

21 convoy in which you left, or was this this second convoy where those who

22 had not boarded were forced to leave their houses by armed soldiers?

23 A. It was the second convoy.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And what's the source of your knowledge in this

25 respect?

1 A. I quoted those two names, the names of my neighbours, and that's

2 what my neighbour Emin told me. And there were also other people in the

3 sports hall told me the same story.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was it ever discussed that with the -- with the

5 authorities, that although there was a wish to leave, that those who

6 wished to stay behind would have to join in such convoys as well?

7 A. I'm not sure I understood your question.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll try to make it more clear.

9 From your testimony, I do understand that apart from those who

10 boarded the buses, there were others who had not done that yet, and that

11 soldiers went to their houses and forced them on to the buses, which I

12 understood as that these people did not board the buses from their own

13 free will but were forced to do so. Was that ever discussed as part of a

14 scheme to leave the territory of the municipality?

15 A. No, that was not discussed. But you say that we boarded

16 voluntarily. I mean, who would voluntarily leave their own home and their

17 own town? I think it's -- the way you put the question, we couldn't have

18 discussed whether some people would stay behind because we didn't know at

19 that time that some people were not willing to go. For instance, Kasum

20 Ruhija sent two sons away with his daughters-in-law and children, whereas

21 he stayed behind at home with his wife because he thought things would get

22 back to normal soon, things would calm down. However, six months later,

23 with papers that his family sent him from Germany or whatever state people

24 went to, people continued to leave Bosanski Novi, and the UNHCR evacuated

25 them for family reunion, or maybe the Red Cross evacuated some of them.

1 JUDGE ORIE: You commented on that part of my question when I said

2 voluntarily boarding the buses, which I meant to say that whereas the

3 others were forced, as you told us, more or less by gunpoint, at gunpoint

4 to board the buses that at least for these steps they are not forced. But

5 you earlier said that all the paperwork that had to be filled in was to

6 establish that you voluntarily and without duress left. Do I understand

7 from your comments on what "voluntary" meant at that time, that it, in

8 your experience, was not voluntary and was not without duress?

9 A. Well, of course, in view of all that had happened to me before,

10 from the arrest, the camp, the killing of my uncle, the torchings, the

11 chaos, how can one say that we left of our own will? I mean, who can

12 conceive of such a statement for me to sign? And I had my original

13 documents in my bag. If you wish to see them, I can show you. In the

14 memorandum, it says, on top, the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

15 pursuant to the decision of the Crisis Staff, number such and such, hereby

16 allows the departure from the Autonomous District of Krajina on a

17 voluntary basis, and I voluntarily sign away my apartment to return it to

18 Kozara Prevoz company and will leave forthwith, et cetera.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Were you the owner of your apartment or did you have

20 the right to use it as your residence?

21 A. Before the war, in the former Yugoslavia, generally speaking there

22 were very few owners. Very few people bought apartments. People mainly

23 received them from the companies they worked for, and I received mine, as

24 a valuable staff member, because I studied at the university on a

25 scholarship from Kozara Prevoz and later on I joined that company.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Did any members of your family own any property in

2 your municipality?

3 A. We had a family house. My father occupied the ground floor. My

4 brother the upper floor. And in the yard, we had a structure for office

5 space. This was the ownership of the two of them.

6 JUDGE ORIE: What happened to that property?

7 A. As I said, those who were leaving Bosanski Novi had to sign away

8 their property to Republika Srpska to exchange their property or simply

9 produce a document that the property no longer belongs to them. In that

10 complete chaos that reigned, when people started going to the town hall to

11 get those certificates, it was so overcrowded that the administration

12 could no longer cope. Some people got certificates; others didn't. And

13 both times when the convoys were travelling, those documents, those

14 particular documents, were not checked.

15 As far as my father and brother's property, they swapped with some

16 Serbs who lived in Zagreb and drew up a contract on the exchange of real

17 estate. However, when they arrived, when we arrived to Zagreb, this

18 property that we got in exchange turned out to be non-existent. We were

19 cheated. We found the parents of that young man with whom we had signed a

20 contract in Bosanski Novi and who had given us false contract information;

21 in other words, who misrepresented this ownership. So we just signed away

22 our house and he moved in.

23 Later, after the war, we recuperated -- we recovered our property.

24 I got my apartment back and my parents got their house back. My parents

25 now live in Bosanski Novi in their house.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. During these negotiations, was it ever

2 discussed whether there would be a possibility for those who wished to

3 leave to ever return, once the war would be over or once the situation

4 would have calmed down?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever ask to those, for example, the

7 Bosanski Novi municipal authorities, whether in the future there would be

8 a possibility to return?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Talking about Mr. Pasic, during these negotiations,

11 did he show any awareness of the reasons why you wished to leave, or did

12 you tell him during these negotiations what urged you to leave the

13 territory of the municipality?

14 A. Of course he was aware of it. He was the president of that Crisis

15 Staff of Bosanski Novi municipality, and he managed the whole thing. He

16 supervised and controlled the situation in full. Mr. Pasic certainly had

17 the situation under his complete control, and he of course was aware of

18 what was going on in town and what was happening to the people. During

19 those negotiations he said that we had to leave and that we may not

20 remain. And that even if we did remain, because the UNHCR representatives

21 were telling us to stay, that they would bring us humanitarian aid, he

22 said that he was unable to guarantee our safety.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You said he was under -- he was controlling the

24 situation in full. Do you have reasons to believe that he could have

25 guaranteed your safety if he would have wished to do so?

1 A. The authorities of Bosanski Novi municipality, that is the Serb

2 authorities or that Crisis Staff, could have, of course, if they had

3 wanted to. All this was organised. It was no individual incident. I

4 recounted to you the events as they developed. So if he, as the president

5 of the municipality, makes an announcement to us telling us what we had to

6 produce and how we would be allowed to leave, under what conditions, that

7 means that he organised it all.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Were these conditions ever discussed during these

9 negotiations, that is to give up or exchange your --

10 A. No. Whatever conditions he set, we said we agreed, just as long

11 as we are allowed to leave, to run for our lives.

12 Naturally, all these administrative requirements, this

13 certificate, that certificate, all that was of no consequence to me. The

14 conditions were in fact set, as far as I see it, so that we would be

15 required to go back to those same institutions once again in case we were

16 wanted, in case they wanted to interrogate us and were unable to find us,

17 so they had another chance to get us.

18 It comes back to me now, and maybe it would be worth mentioning,

19 at those negotiations we set one condition; namely, that the people from

20 the Japra Valley, including Blagaj, Hozici, Agici villages, Celopek, the

21 whole Japra Valley, all those Muslim villages, although some parts of

22 those villages were Serb, they were expelled from their homes on the 11th

23 of May. Some of that population went further up the river towards Ljubija

24 and Sanica, whereas others were escorted into the compound of the Japra

25 mine mining company that was surrounded by a wire fence.

1 On the 11th of May, all of them, women, children, old people, were

2 put on freight rail-cars and were taken towards Gracanica and Doboj. And

3 according to their accounts, women and children were released to go to the

4 free territory that was under the control of the BH army or whatever it

5 was called then, while men were kept in those rail-cars and they were

6 taken back, I don't know exactly where, but some people who managed to

7 escape to Novi from the Japra Valley told me and Emin about it. So we set

8 as a condition that when we leave town they had to come with us. So when

9 we were released from the stadium, from that camp, the Sloboda stadium in

10 Mlakve, they were brought to the stadium, and they stayed there until the

11 departure of the convoy.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Delic, just for proper understanding of your

13 testimony, at a certain point you said we want to leave, although you

14 explained under what circumstances you came to this position. I also do

15 understand that Mr. Pasic did not object you leaving, although he put

16 certain conditions.

17 Now, what was the need or under what circumstances he, as you told

18 us, expressed that even if you would not have wished to leave, that you

19 should have left anyhow? Can you recall when he said that and what made

20 him say so? Because you seemed at that time, although under the

21 circumstances prevailing at that time, that you both were of the opinion

22 that you should leave the territory of the municipality.

23 A. Well, you see, as for leaving, or perhaps running is a better

24 term, that was not on our mind at all initially. However, when all that

25 happened to us happened, we realised we had to run to save our lives. It

1 didn't matter where, just as long as we got away. But I think it was at

2 the bridge that he said it. However, there were so many rounds of those

3 negotiations, in his office, at the municipality, twice in Emin's house,

4 in Dvor, at the bridge, there were so many occasions when we talked that I

5 cannot pinpoint the exact time when he said that.

6 However, there was no question on our side whether we were going

7 or not, whether we had to run or not. And there was no doubt on their

8 side, because everything had been done so that we would leave.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have to pay personally for leaving, any

10 additional amount? Were you charged?

11 A. No. I didn't pay any money to leave. I only had to obtain that

12 documentation. I was not leaving the town on my own. I went with the

13 convoy.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 Judge Hanoteau has more questions for you.

16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] One question, sir.

17 You stated the following: [In English] "They told us --

18 [Interpretation] You stated as follows: [In English] "We insisted that we

19 should be allowed to leave. Mr. Dragomir Pasic also invited -- insisted

20 with the UNHCR representatives that we be allowed to leave. They told us

21 in turn that we would not be allowed entry into the Republic of Croatia

22 or, rather, that we would not be allowed to get past the bridge as we used

23 to say. But since the situation was dreadful, we were resolute in our

24 wish to leave. This took place on the 16th of July.

25 "Since the situation was dreadful, we were resolute in our wish

1 to leave." [Interpretation] I would like you to explain to us in what way

2 the situation was dreadful, as far as you were concerned. Can you please

3 give us some examples?

4 A. Well, you see, I gave a few examples in my evidence so far. I

5 don't know how far you were able to understand them.

6 There were armed soldiers very well organised and well equipment

7 [as interpreted]. Now if these soldiers come to my flat and force me to

8 leave my home and go to the camp at gunpoint, what more can I tell you?

9 If my uncle had been taken away, killed and his body abandoned at the

10 roadside to stand -- to be there for several days, and if I'm later on

11 invited to identify a body that had been left to rot for several days,

12 maggots and all, if 50 metres away from my home there was the road

13 obstacle and there were guards not allowing us to move around, if after

14 the 11th of May, for several days, Muslims were unable to buy any bread in

15 the town, if people, friends and neighbours, were being taken away, never

16 to be found again, never to reappear, their bodies never recovered, what

17 more did a person need to induce him or her to simply run for life? Of

18 course, my family was well off and probably we could have tried to pay our

19 way out. Whether this would have succeeded or not, I don't know, but I

20 simply did not dare to single myself out of the crowd.

21 Now, the events that unfolded in such a way that Mr. Puric and I,

22 together with friends and neighbours who subsequently joined these

23 negotiations, became representatives and heads of this negotiating team.

24 Let me give you this example. Sometime between the 11th and 31st

25 of May, at any rate it was in late May, that Muslim intellectuals were

1 being called over the radio to organise a team or a council of

2 intellectuals or something of the sort who were to negotiate the surrender

3 of weapons.

4 At that point, people who had already been engaged in politics,

5 like members of the SDA, had disappeared, never to appear, like neighbour

6 Mr. Resad Berberovic, Dzafer Kapetanovic, Mr. Muslimovic. These persons

7 have never been found. I know that they were engaged in politics, like

8 the president of the SDA, Izet Muhamedovic, whose home was 200 to 300

9 metres away from mine. He was under a sort of house arrest. He was the

10 only one of them there, though. Over the radio we could hear that

11 Panella's party from Italy had intervened on his behalf and made sure that

12 he be kept under house arrest. At one point, he was transferred to

13 Vojnic, into that part of Croatia, from where he was subsequently

14 transferred to Zagreb. I know that at a later stage I met with him in

15 Zagreb; therefore he survived the ordeal.

16 All my friends and neighbours who had college degrees and were

17 people who were members of the authorities, Azmir Celemovic [phoen] who

18 was the police commander in Bosanski Novi, Asim Berberovic, who was judge,

19 Dzemo Sefer, who was the manager of Privredna Banka, Hamdija Ekic, who was

20 the municipality mayor before those elections, we didn't want to set up

21 any sort of council for negotiations because there had been no

22 organisation and there had been no weapons. It made no point to engage in

23 any negotiations because as soon as a person's name was read out over the

24 radio, that person went missing. Later on it turned out that the person

25 had been killed or continues to be missing to this day.

1 For instance, there was one story in front of my house --

2 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Sorry for interrupting. How many

3 friends or members of your family did you lose during the conflict?

4 By "lose" I mean how many people were killed, how many disappeared, how

5 many went missing?

6 A. Out of my close family, my uncle was killed.

7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] What about your friends, your

8 acquaintances?

9 A. Well, you see, many of them. I mentioned Muharem Mujkic who was

10 my friend's father. This happened on the 11th of May at Prekosanje.

11 Bosanski Novi is a small town with only 9.000 inhabitants. That was the

12 town proper. Where as the municipality had some 40.000 people, Muslims,

13 Croats and Serbs. We all knew each other or had either business relations

14 or were relatives.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Let me ask you the following

16 question: Before all these events, was there a barracks in Bosanski Novi?

17 Were there regular army units stationed in Bosanski Novi?

18 A. I will have to give you a more detailed explanation.

19 Bosanski Novi was strategically important because of the lay of the

20 ground, of the position of the rivers and bridges. As the army withdrew

21 from Slovenia and Croatia, it did so across the Una and Sana bridges.

22 In that period in 1991, bridges were guarded by the army. All

23 transport went through that route. There was the Montenegrin Battalion, I

24 believe, or some formation. It was a large formation that went through

25 Dvor and then on somewhere, I don't know where.

1 In the centre of the town, there was a small barracks, but the

2 logistical supplies for that barracks came from across the river in

3 Croatia; I believe the place was called Javornik. The barracks was

4 situated across from the stadium and the Una River. I know that a person

5 named Kosta was the commander of the barracks, and I believe he held the

6 rank of a captain. I know this because my wife worked as a secretary to

7 Mr. Pasic in the municipality, and this commander, together with his wife

8 Smilja, lived in the building called Karingtonka next to mine. There were

9 check-points in the town at Svodna, which is en route to Prijedor, at

10 Blatna, which is on route to Bosanska Otoka. There were check-points on

11 all the bridges manned by the army that controlled the traffic, buses,

12 lorries, whatever went past the bridges. My lorries, or that's to say the

13 lorries belonging to the company where I worked went over to Croatia in

14 1990 and goods were supposed to be loaded over there. Muslims were not

15 able to drive these lorries. Serbs did. Goods would be loaded on to

16 these trucks in Croatia, and then as soon as the situation in Bosnia

17 became favourable they would take the lorries to Serbia to Belgrade,

18 Pancevo and so on.

19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] As for your municipality, we've

20 heard evidence and we've seen documents showing that apparently

21 paramilitary formations appeared in your municipality, groups that were

22 not part of the regular army forces. What do you know about this?

23 A. Well, I think that these isolated incidents by persons who were

24 intoxicated and out of control, there were such cases.

25 In 1991, I was working in my company and some staff members went

1 over to the battlefield in Lipik. This went on for quite a while. Such

2 people, as they returned from the front line, spent most of the time

3 down-town, and they would fire shots, probably out of sheer joy for having

4 survived, and they would mistreat people around the town. There were such

5 isolated outbursts.

6 But in this particular period involving the 11th and the 31st, the

7 setting up of check-points, all of that had been organised, and I'm sure

8 documents and other evidence can prove that these were not isolated

9 incidents. It just came to my mind now that on one of these occasions

10 when we discussed these matters, the idea was put forth that the situation

11 might be settled down if at one of these check-points where there were

12 road obstacles, the -- there was one near to my house in the vicinity of

13 the so-called Vartan [phoen] buildings, mixed teams would be put to man

14 these check-points, consisting of Serbs, Muslims and Croats. However,

15 this idea was resolutely rejected, and there was no more mention of it.

16 In connection with this, there was this one person I knew, called

17 Stole Skondric. We were told that he was the commander, and I'm talking

18 about the period around the 11th. I believe he was planted there in order

19 to create this chaos. Whether he was the formal commander or not, I can't

20 say, because I never saw any such documents. I didn't know who the

21 members of the Crisis Staff were, but we talked amongst ourselves about

22 who possibly members of this Crisis Staff could be and who was it who was

23 in control of the situation in the town.

24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] One last question: At the time

25 when you were detained at the stadium, how many people were there at the

1 stadium, how many people were locked up at the stadium?

2 A. I know for a fact that the army compiled a list. I really can't

3 give you an exact figure. This is my assessment, that there were about

4 1.000 people there. But it's a really rough estimate. At that point, it

5 never really crossed my mind that I should look around and see how many

6 people there were. But I think there were around 1.000.

7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Canivell has one or more questions for you.

9 JUDGE CANIVELL: [Interpretation] Sir, please, can you tell me

10 this: Out of the people who left your municipality, how many did return

11 and set out again, there, where they used to live before the events that

12 you just told us about?

13 A. In my part of the town, namely Vidorija, I believe that all the

14 Bosniaks, Muslims, who wanted to have their properties returned managed to

15 do so. There were of course many houses that were damaged or destroyed,

16 and international humanitarian organisations donated funds to reconstruct

17 them. For instance, in my street, only two young people returned, and

18 when I say young, they are in their 30s. The rest were actually our

19 parents, people aged 70, 80, like my parents. I go back home

20 occasionally, every other weekend, to see my parents.

21 As far as the town and the municipality are concerned, I think

22 that a significant number of people managed to have their properties back,

23 whereas some properties were not given back simply because they were

24 destroyed, there was no interest. I know that several of my colleagues

25 did not manage to get their flats back out of some procedural problems.

1 For instance, because they failed to file their application on time and so

2 on. One of my colleagues, who worked for the customs office and was

3 manager there, did not succeed in getting his flat back. A neighbour, a

4 lady neighbour of mine, who lived in my entranceway and worked at

5 Kozara Prevoz with me and was given her apartment at the same time I was,

6 did not manage to get it back.

7 JUDGE CANIVELL: [Interpretation] Yes, but, sir, I have to insist,

8 rather than those who recovered their property, I'm interested in the

9 number of people who returned, because you mentioned 14 or 15.000 people

10 who left. Now, how many returned and settled for good back in the area?

11 Well, I'm putting questions to you, but you could tell me maybe also

12 whether the municipality today is part of Republika Srpska or is it part

13 of the federation? If this is the case, can you tell me how many people

14 returned out of the 14.000 or 15.000 people who left when you told us?

15 A. I didn't say that 14.000 or 15.000 people left. I said that I

16 believed the convoy numbered 9.000 to 9.500 people. Since there were

17 people leaving individually, I can't give you the numbers. I wasn't

18 involved in politics then. I'm not involved in now. I never worked for

19 any municipal structures.

20 I really don't know how many people returned. I said that a

21 significant portion of the property was given back. I also said that some

22 of the elderly people went back. Others exchanged properties. I myself

23 live in Bihac now. My parents went back, and out of the six members of my

24 close family only one of my brothers lives with his family in Bihac and

25 only my parents returned to Bosanski Novi.

1 The municipality of Bosanski Novi, or, rather, it is called

2 Novi Grad, because during the war the name of the municipality was changed

3 to Novi Grad, is now part of Republika Srpska.

4 As far as the name is concerned, even the new identity cards

5 read "Novi Grad." Even today if you go to Bosanski Novi to obtain a birth

6 certificate, the birth certificate will read that you were born in the

7 municipality of Novi Grad, which is impossible because I was born in the

8 municipality of Bosanski Novi. Now that it's been renamed, I can have my

9 address read that I live in Bosanski Novi but not that I was born in

10 Bosanski Novi.

11 As regard the identity card, the new identity card I was given, it

12 was corrected, and now it reads that I was born in the municipality of

13 Bosanski Novi/Novi Grad.

14 JUDGE CANIVELL: [Interpretation] I can see that you cannot give

15 me the exact number of people who have returned. But most of the Muslims

16 and Croats who left, did they return to the municipality, or did they not,

17 according to you? What kind of ratio would you estimate? I mean by that

18 the number of people who left, never to return.

19 A. It was really difficult for me to assess that, but I'm sure that

20 the majority did not return. The difficulty in Bosanski Novi now is not

21 safety but to make a living. People went to different parts of the world,

22 Canada, United States, other parts of Europe. Families have found a

23 living there. Their children go to school there, and they probably

24 decided not to change their life-style now. It was mostly the elderly

25 people with very few young people that returned.

1 Based on the information I heard from my neighbours who still live

2 there, I know that some 16 to 17 people work for the municipal services of

3 Bosanski Novi.

4 JUDGE CANIVELL: [Interpretation] I thank you very much, sir. I

5 have no further questions.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we have a break, I have a few short questions

7 for you.

8 First, you told us that when you had left the Mlakve stadium, that

9 the people from the Blagaj valley, after having been put on trains, that

10 people from the Blagaj valley then from taken to that same stadium. Do

11 you have any knowledge on whether they were free to leave that stadium and

12 return or whether they were kept there without a possibility of leaving?

13 Please tell us, first of all, if you have any knowledge of it. If not,

14 please tell us as well.

15 A. Well, look, in that period, I did not move around. I stayed in

16 hiding. And only exceptionally, when we went to have talks or

17 negotiations, I left my hiding place.

18 If I understood you correctly, if the interpretation was correct,

19 we were not in rail-cars. We walked back to town from the stadium, which

20 was a one- or two-kilometre walk. So everybody walked back, whereas

21 people from the Japra Valley were in rail-cars, and they were brought to

22 the stadium.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I was talking exclusively about the Blagaj, Japra

24 Valley people, whether you know whether they were free to leave that

25 stadium once they were brought there. So I'm not talking about your

1 situation but only about the situation of those who were brought to the

2 stadium from the Japra Valley, whether you know. And if you don't know,

3 please tell us whether they were free to leave that stadium or that they

4 were kept there.

5 A. I don't know, but I don't believe they could move, they were free

6 to leave. Our agreement, in fact the condition that we set, was that they

7 be released with us and join us in the convoy. The authorities accepted

8 that and they didn't make a problem out of it. So they were released from

9 the stadium the same day as we were. I mean, they left on the convoy with

10 us.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Next question: You talked about places where

12 people were detained or interrogated. You mentioned the Mlakve stadium,

13 you mentioned the police station, you mentioned the fire station, you

14 mentioned a hotel. Could you give us the name of that hotel?

15 A. It was Una Hotel. It was a new hotel in Bosanski Novi.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that. Do you know of any other

17 facilities where people were detained or interrogated, apart from those I

18 just mentioned?

19 A. I don't know. I only know from what other people told me that

20 they were taken to Prijedor, Banja Luka and Gradiska for interrogation.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then last question. You said you brought some

22 documents if we were interested in looking at them. What kind of

23 documents are these?

24 A. Of course. I can take them out of my bag and show you now.

25 JUDGE ORIE: If you would please do so and tell us what kind of

1 documents these are.

2 A. I will read them.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Before doing so, would you first tell us, before

4 starting reading it, what kind of documents these are? Because there

5 might be documents we have already in our possession. Of course, I'm not

6 certain about it. So could you please tell us what's the date of the

7 document you are going to read, what is the --

8 A. These are documents that we had to obtain and later produce in

9 order to be allowed to leave Bosanski Novi municipality, and they are

10 mainly dated the 5th of July, 8th of July, 3rd of July, 6th of July.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. These are the documents you talked about that

12 you'd need to leave the territory of the municipality; is that correct?

13 A. Right.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you mind to give them, if only temporarily, to

15 the Tribunal so that they can be copied, that the parties could have a

16 look at these documents in order to see whether there is any doubt in

17 their minds as to their authenticity, and then I take it that you would

18 like to keep the originals yourself.

19 A. No problem.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I then suggest that we ask the Registry to have

21 at least some copies made, and perhaps during the break that the parties

22 can have a look at the documents to see whether there is any authenticity

23 problem involved and that we then consider on the basis of the copies

24 whether it's of any use to have them in evidence.

25 Perhaps, Mr. Josse, someone who can read the documents but I'd

1 rather keep the originals as short as possible in the hands of the

2 Registry and return them to the witness as soon as possible but perhaps by

3 reading the copies to see whether it's of any use to have them in

4 evidence.

5 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Could we have two sets so I can give one to

6 Mr. Krajisnik, please?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll ask, then, the registrar -- how many

8 documents are there, Mr. Delic?

9 A. Seven.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps if you give them to Mr. Usher then

11 we'll take care that during the break they are available for inspection,

12 and that they are copied, and we would then, unless there is any specific

13 problem, I would be inclined to return the originals to the witness.

14 Again, unless there is any specific problem with that.

15 We'll -- yes, Mr. Josse?

16 MR. JOSSE: Does the Chamber have any views as to the tape

17 recording the witness has told us he brought with him to The Hague?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do agree with you that I only asked about

19 documents and not about a tape recording. I do understand that -- I take

20 it that you'd like to have access to it in one way or the other which

21 might be easiest achieved by having the tape recording copied first of

22 all.

23 We do understand, Mr. Delic, that you have a tape recording of at

24 least some part of the negotiations. Have you brought that with you?

25 A. Yes.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Would you be willing to give it, if only temporarily,

2 to the Tribunal so that a copy could be made and that the parties and the

3 Chamber could consider whether we would like to have it transcribed and to

4 rely on that material as well for our final determinations? Would you

5 mind to give it? I can't promise that you get that back immediately after

6 the break because copying a tape might take a bit more time.

7 A. No problem.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Usher, you're invited to receive --

9 Mr. Harmon.

10 MR. HARMON: Could the Court inquire as to how long the tape is?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems to be from a distance -- is it that

12 videotape or is it an audiotape, Mr. Delic?

13 A. It's a videotape.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It's a video. And how long is it approximately, how

15 many minutes?

16 A. 40, 45 minutes maybe.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And could you tell us who recorded it?

18 A. It was recorded by people from Bosanski Novi, citizens. It was

19 broadcast on television, the TV of Bosnia-Herzegovina or whatever, and

20 that was part of the TV coverage.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if a copy could be made, Mr. Registrar,

22 then -- Mr. Delic, we --

23 A. I think that this photograph and the persons we saw on the

24 photograph, that's taken from that recording. It's not a secret

25 photograph or anything. There are thousands of them made.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take advantage of the opportunity to copy

2 this material. I take it that authenticity, I take it that is a copy

3 already from some other material so that I do not expect there to be any

4 problem.

5 Mr. Delic, we'll have another break, and since we had a late start

6 today, we have limited time left. Could the parties give me any

7 indication as to how much time they would need for questions, and I think

8 in our rules, although not formal rules, it's the Prosecution first.

9 MR. HARMON: Of course reserving my position not having seen the

10 tape or the documents, setting that aside I would say 15 to 20 minutes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber of course is not seeking further

12 repetitious evidence. We know that of course this witness was mainly

13 invited for the negotiations, although we gave him ample opportunity to

14 get his way to that point.

15 Mr. Josse.

16 MR. JOSSE: That is an issue that I'd like to ask the Chamber

17 about, perhaps in the witness's absence immediately after the break. I

18 have some concerns about the evidence that he gave this morning prior to

19 the first break.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MR. JOSSE: And as to how the Defence are expected to deal with

22 it.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then hear from you after the break.

24 Mr. Delic, we'll have a break of 20 minutes. We will resume at

25 25 minutes past 1.00. And I'll inquire into how much -- whether there are

1 any possibilities to sit a bit longer since we had a late start, whether

2 that's it from a point of starting and from any other logistical reasons,

3 whether it would be possible or impossible.

4 We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

5 --- Recess taken at 1.05 p.m.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, you wanted to address the Chamber in the

9 absence of the witness, please do so.

10 MR. JOSSE: Very briefly, Your Honour.

11 I've looked at the procedure the Chamber set down. At 16D, it

12 says the witness is to be cross-examined by the parties first by the

13 Prosecution and then by the Defence within the time limit set by the

14 Chamber, and then it deals with the scope of the cross-examination that is

15 going to be allowed.

16 Clearly the Defence are anxious to know the what the time limits

17 are going to be set in the case of this witness. Our submission is that

18 we should be entitled to 60 per cent of the time that has hitherto been

19 used by the Chamber in examining the witness.

20 Having said that, we appreciate that up until the first break, he

21 was dealing with events in the municipality. If the Chamber -- that

22 evidence having now been adduced, we seek some guidance from the Chamber

23 as to whether they want that area explored further. We had prepared our

24 cross-examination on the basis of the negotiations and the negotiation on

25 the bridge in particular.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. JOSSE: That will be shorter, although I'm bound to say

3 considerably longer than 15 to 20 minutes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Josse, you may have noticed that this

5 witness, who came unprepared to some extent, that we started questions at

6 the bridge, to say it this way, and when the witness said that he would

7 need to explain what road took him to that bridge, that the Chamber has

8 not objected to that and has given him an opportunity, although it was not

9 the main reason for calling this witness. So if that is sufficient

10 guidance, if the witness would -- perhaps we would have put a few short

11 questions on it but it's also a matter of a witness who comes here, if you

12 say what happened on the bridge and now go away after you've told us

13 whether there is water under the bridge or whether there was -- that's not

14 exactly the way we treat witnesses here.

15 If that is of sufficient guidance, then the Chamber arranged

16 during the break for additional time this afternoon. That would mean that

17 we would have a short break because we can't stay in this courtroom. We

18 would then move to Courtroom I and would have one and a half hours

19 available. That means that it's considerably more time available, we

20 heard from the Prosecution that they would have approximately 15 minutes.

21 Let's call the witness in and see what we can do in 10 to 12

22 minutes because otherwise, I might have problems with the Chamber, which

23 is sitting this afternoon in this courtroom.

24 I don't know whether the parties had any opportunity to look at

25 these documents which seem to be -- from what we heard from the witness

1 are mainly the personal documents he needed at that time to get permission

2 to leave.

3 MR. JOSSE: Not really. I took advantage of the break to speak to

4 Mr. Krajisnik and take some general instructions from him, though I'm

5 grateful a set has been supplied to him as well as to the Defence lawyers.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Delic, although we had hoped we could have

9 finished this morning, we might need sometime this afternoon as well, and

10 might come as a bit of a surprise but we found another courtroom to

11 continue at a later stage. I hope that's not too inconvenient to you.

12 But now, first questions will be put to you by Mr. Harmon, counsel for the

13 Prosecution.

14 Mr. Harmon.

15 MR. HARMON: Thank you, very much, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, Mr. Delic, to try to focus on the core

17 of the questions put to you by Mr. Harmon.

18 MR. HARMON: If I could first have the usher's assistance in

19 moving the ELMO?

20 Your Honour, I have reduced the number of questions and therefore

21 my estimate considerably from my earlier estimate, so I just have three

22 areas in which to inquire question about.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Harmon:

24 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Delic. My name is Mark Harmon. I'm from the

25 Office of the Prosecutor.

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. You mentioned in your evidence the incarceration or the detention

3 of Bosnian Muslims in the Mlakve stadium both -- two separate occasions,

4 the occasion when you personally were there and later when people from the

5 Japra Valley had been brought to the stadium and were detained there until

6 approximately the 23rd of July, 1992.

7 Can you tell us, Mr. Delic, if you are aware of whether Mr. Pasic,

8 the mayor of Bosanski Novi, ever visited the stadium, based on your

9 personal knowledge or based on information you received at a later time?

10 A. Don't know.

11 Q. Okay. Then the second area I'd like to ask you about related to

12 your testimony that you were discussing in negotiations an idea that was

13 put forward by the negotiators, by the Bosniak negotiators, that mixed

14 teams, Serbs, Muslims and Croats, would man check-points in Bosanski Novi,

15 and your testimony was the idea was resolutely rejected.

16 Can you tell us who put forward the idea and who rejected the

17 idea?

18 A. It was put forward by Mr. Emin Puric. Or, rather, there was a

19 discussion about whether it was possible to calm the situation down as the

20 UNHCR representative insisted so that we should stay in our homes, and we

21 thought maybe that was the way to achieve it. Mr. Puric therefore

22 said, "Let's put together mixed check-points, joint check-points, where a

23 Muslim and a Serb would be constantly on duty." However, it was said that

24 that is out of the question. So the discussion about that was very brief.

25 Mr. Pasic said that it cannot be done.

1 Q. Did he tell you why it could not be done?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Finally I would like to focus on your evidence that relates to

4 July the 23rd, the 9500 persons who left Bosanski Novi in a convoy. Your

5 evidence this morning was that people did in fact -- a limited number of

6 people did, in fact, remain behind. Then armed soldiers went door-to-door

7 forcing them to leave and a few buses stayed behind to receive them.

8 Can you provide any insight to the Trial Chamber as to the

9 circumstances of why those buses remained behind?

10 A. Well, I had already gone by then, so I don't know under what

11 circumstances that happened. But from what I heard from other people,

12 when the people who had decided to stay saw the convoy leaving, and

13 actually passing through, instead of being turned back like last time,

14 they realised that they had to leave too, so they boarded the buses too,

15 and the people who stayed behind said that Serbs had already started going

16 into houses, looting, some people started moving into the now-vacant homes

17 with the intention of staying and even if the house was inhabited, they

18 would turn the inhabitants into the street in order to move into their

19 house, and all the troops were armed, mainly with automatic rifles.

20 So in addition to the number of people who -- or, rather, despite

21 the fact that some people joined the convoy at the last minute, some

22 Muslims stayed behind even then and then found their own way out of

23 Bosanski Novi during the war.

24 Q. Your evidence was that armed soldiers went door-to-door forcing

25 them to leave. I understood that evidence, Mr. Delic, to relate to people

1 who remained in Bosanski Novi after the convoy departed. Then Muslims who

2 had remained in Bosanski Novi were forced out of their homes by armed

3 soldiers. Is my understanding of your evidence correct?

4 A. Yes. But that took all that day. You can imagine how many buses

5 the convoy had, if there were 9500 people, buses, lorries, and passenger

6 cars stretched for over -- for several kilometres. The convoy was passing

7 through town slowly. Some people were unable to start their cars for this

8 reason or another. And while all that was going on, there were armed

9 groups in the town, shooting, going from door to door, making merry. I

10 don't know if they went into each house but I told you about one

11 particular family that was thrown out of their home despite the fact that

12 they had decided to stay.

13 Q. Are you able to estimate the number of people who encountered the

14 circumstances you've just described, people who, on the 23rd of July,

15 wished to remain in Bosanski Novi but who were forced from their homes by

16 armed persons? Any -- give us any enlightenment as to the figures?

17 A. I think a small number was forced out that way because the

18 majority had already decided to leave and left.

19 Q. And after the convoy of the 23rd of July left Bosanski Novi, are

20 you able to estimate how many Bosniaks remained in the city of

21 Bosanski Novi?

22 A. I believe a couple of hundred.

23 MR. HARMON: I have no further questions, Mr. Delic. Thank you

24 very much.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

1 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment we are waiting for confirmation that

2 we have interpreters for this afternoon. I see that Mr. Registrar is

3 phoning.

4 Our time is -- will be limited, Mr. Josse. We could continue in

5 Courtroom I, once we have had a break here of 15 minutes only, and that

6 would give us one hour in Courtroom I. Let's see how far we come within

7 that hour and see what can be done. And then we'll have to decide

8 whether -- so provisionally, I would say, the time is set for one hour

9 but still to be reviewed also depending on what happens during that hour.

10 MR. JOSSE: I'm in the Chamber's hands.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll -- Mr. Delic, we will have a short break

12 and we would like then to continue for another hour. We are trying to

13 finish today and we'll see whether we can manage to do that. After the

14 break, you'll first be examined by Mr. Josse, who is counsel for the

15 Defence.

16 We stand adjourned and we will resume in approximately 15 minutes

17 in Courtroom I.

18 --- Break taken at 1.52 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 2.25 p.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, since we moved courtrooms, could you

21 please call the case again?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

23 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

25 I often apologised in public to technicians and interpreters. I

1 never included at that moment security, which would have been proper to do

2 all those times. The Chamber greatly appreciates the flexibility they've

3 shown this afternoon to make it possible for us to continue sitting.

4 Mr. Josse.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Josse:

6 Q. Mr. Delic, earlier today in answer to a question from the learned

7 Presiding Judge you said that after you had been released from the

8 football stadium and whilst you were involved in negotiations, you had a

9 hiding place. That's right, isn't it?

10 A. That's right. There was a shed in my yard behind the house, and I

11 spent a couple of days hiding behind the stacked firewood in the shed. I

12 stayed there so that they couldn't find me at home if they came to look.

13 Q. "They" being whom, please?

14 A. I mean the army.

15 Q. And did the army know that you were a negotiator on behalf of your

16 people?

17 A. I don't know that. I think -- by the way, I wasn't a negotiator

18 yet at that time. On the Friday, when I left the stadium, the camp, I was

19 not a negotiator.

20 Q. The answer you gave earlier was as follows, and I quote: "And

21 only exceptionally when we went to have talks or negotiations I left my

22 hiding place."

23 That suggests that you were a negotiator at the time you were

24 hiding, doesn't it?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.

1 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if counsel could refer to the location

2 in the transcript where --

3 JUDGE ORIE: It's page 50, line 17.

4 MR. JOSSE: I'm grateful to Your Honour.

5 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

6 MR. JOSSE:

7 Q. Would you like me to repeat my question, Mr. Delic?

8 A. It's not necessary. I understood the question.

9 So the entire time from before I was taken to the camp, I told you

10 I shuttled between the house and the apartment, sometimes spending the

11 night on the ground floor of the house, sometimes in the apartment,

12 sometimes in the shed, wherever I felt safest. So in that period, when we

13 started the negotiations, I kept on doing the same thing. However, on

14 Friday, the day after I was released from the camp, I slept in the shed

15 and I did the same thing the following days.

16 Q. For two nights; is that correct?

17 A. No, not two nights. Longer than that.

18 Q. How many nights?

19 A. Let me just tell you one thing. When I left the camp, I didn't

20 return to my own apartment. I told you before that my -- that the wife,

21 children, and the elderly mother of Sead, Heder were staying at my

22 apartment because their house had been burned down.

23 After I left the camp, they called me to say that two armed

24 soldiers had been to visit and to throw me out of the apartment, and he

25 asked me what to do, whether to resist or to leave the apartment. I told

1 them to feel free to leave, that I'm not intending to try and keep the

2 apartment.

3 I already described the locations between which I shuttled in that

4 period. And until the 23rd of July, I would sleep either in the ground

5 floor of the house or the upper floor or in the apartment or -- sorry, not

6 in the apartment, in the shed or in the little area where I kept firewood.

7 Q. The negotiation that we see depicted in the photograph at the

8 bridge, were you the chief Muslim negotiator on that occasion?

9 A. There were two of us, Mr. Puric and myself. As I told you, from

10 our first visit to Dvor through the second visit, we were together, the

11 two of us, and we were occasionally joined by other people, such as

12 Professor Nedim Muftic, nicknamed Nedo, professor of physics, who joined

13 us at the bridge, and Mirsad Brkic, a policeman from Urije. They were

14 standing there and they joined the talks.

15 It was not a formal negotiating team. We simply talked to the

16 other side. On the other side of the bridge, on this photograph and on

17 other photographs, you can see people standing by watching us, trying to

18 get the drift of our negotiations.

19 Q. How were you able to negotiate on behalf of your people, if you

20 were -- if you did not move around? To quote, you say: "I did not move

21 around." How were you able to represent people and know what people

22 wanted? Bosniak people, I mean by that.

23 A. I have told you already, the town was divided by check-points and

24 road obstacles called hedgehogs. It was impossible to move around town

25 because the check-points were manned by patrols who checked everybody

1 trying to pass through. They looked at everybody's IDs. I left my home

2 to go to the shed and so on. So I moved within the circle of these

3 several surrounding houses, and I would also go to the bridge to

4 negotiate.

5 I also said this morning that when Mr. Puric and I returned from

6 Dvor, that late afternoon, there would be 10 to 20 people in the

7 neighbouring houses, all of them come to see us, to ask what we had talked

8 about, how things were going, where we had been. So I'm telling you

9 again, it's not that we were elected representatives of the Muslim people

10 at the time. We simply found ourselves in a situation where we

11 represented them as negotiators.

12 Q. In earlier negotiations, someone called Sifet Barjaktarevic had

13 been involved. Why was he no longer involved in July?

14 If you didn't pick up the name because of my awful pronunciation,

15 I will spell it out, B-a-r-j-a-k-t-a-r-e-v-i-c.

16 A. I don't know that man. He did not attend the negotiations with

17 us.

18 Q. What about someone called Fikret Hamedjagic [phoen]? Does that

19 name mean anything to you?

20 A. I know the name Fikret, but I don't know the last name. I

21 think -- I think the man is from the Japra Valley. Maybe he appeared on

22 behalf of the group of people from the Japra Valley that I told you about

23 earlier, but he wasn't in town with us for the negotiations. Maybe he

24 represented the people from the Japra Valley. I don't know.

25 Q. And is your evidence that the SDA leadership had simply all

1 disappeared or been eliminated and that is why non-political leaders

2 emerged from your community?

3 A. Well, I wouldn't make that connection in quite that way. I would

4 say that all the people that I enumerated, all from the same

5 neighbourhood, Professor Dzafer Kapetanovic, economist, Mr. Resad

6 Berberovic, also economist, Mr. Ibro Muslimovic, and Mr. Izet Muhamedagic,

7 a lawyer, were representatives of the SDA. From what I know, the three

8 had never been found after they went missing. Their bodies were never

9 found.

10 As for Mr. Muhamedagic, I said earlier that he was under house

11 arrest, and there was news on the radio and television that some party

12 called Panella's party interceded on his behalf, and he was transferred to

13 Vojnic and from there to Croatia.

14 As for us, we first made a call to Mr. Drazic, the two of us or

15 rather three of us, Azemir Ceric, Mr. Puric and I called him as a friend,

16 asking for his help and told him what our intentions were. And we didn't

17 represent anyone but our own families. The families from the surrounding

18 houses, around 100 people, even without the extended families. However,

19 when news of that trickled out and spread around, that afternoon more and

20 more people came to see us to ask what's going on, what's going on?

21 Q. How many meetings were there on the bridge?

22 A. I think two.

23 Q. Was Mr. Brkic present at both of them?

24 A. I'm certain about one meeting. I'm not sure about the other.

25 Q. Was Mr. Puric present at both of them?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You remain in contact with Mr. Puric to this day; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. He's my next-door neighbour.

4 Q. And what about Mr. Brkic? Do you have any contact with him?

5 A. I used to see him, and I still see him occasionally, because he

6 lives in Bosanski Novi where I go to visit, but we had not been friends

7 before, nor is there anything now that would bring us together.

8 Q. And as far as you know, is he in the MUP in Bosanski Novi?

9 A. I think so. I don't know whether he's still in the MUP, but I

10 know that he was, even after the war.

11 Q. So far as the negotiations were concerned, this is back in 1992,

12 did you and Mr. Brkic always see eye to eye? In other words, did you have

13 any disagreements?

14 A. Not that I remember.

15 Q. And you say that: "There is nothing now that would bring us

16 together." What do you mean by that, please? I will repeat that question

17 in a moment, Mr. Delic. I'll do so now.

18 The question was: You say there is nothing now that would bring

19 you and Mr. Brkic together. What did you mean when you said that?

20 A. Well, you asked me -- when I said that, I meant that I used to see

21 him in Bosanski Novi because it's a small town, we would run into each

22 other, we were nodding acquaintances but we were not friends or relatives.

23 That's what I meant.

24 We were not even neighbours. I know that his brother went with me

25 to primary school, whereas he lives at the other end of the town, in

1 Urije.

2 Q. You mentioned a car journey and the fact that you shared a -- that

3 car journey with a Serb and that by mentioning that Serb's name might

4 cause difficulty to that person. What sort of difficulty do you have in

5 mind?

6 A. Well, look, anybody who lived through that war and survived all

7 the things that happened during that war never knows anymore what can

8 happen. I agreed to testify in public because I want it to be known what

9 happened there and because I want the world to know the truth. Now, as

10 for safety in Bosanski Novi, there seems to be no problem. However, there

11 can always be a person, an extremist, who can create problems.

12 Q. You've been happy to name the Serb who facilitated your

13 negotiations with Mr. Pasic. So what's the difference between him and the

14 person who gave you a lift? Or who was in your car, perhaps I should

15 say.

16 A. Well, look, Mr. Drazic is an acquaintance and friend of ours. He

17 had business relations with these other two persons and we socialised. He

18 was also a member of the Bosanski Novi authorities. I don't know what his

19 role was, but I believe he was the chief of the general administration

20 department for a while, then he was president or vice-president of the

21 Executive Committee of the Bosanski Novi municipality. That was why I

22 mentioned his name. I'm not sure what you had in mind when you say you've

23 been happy to name him. I can also name the friend who drove the car, but

24 if I do so, I would wish it to remain within these four walls rather than

25 have him possibly encountering problems.

1 Q. For what it's worth, Mr. Delic, and this is as much for the

2 information of the Chamber, it was not the name that I'm at all interested

3 in, it was simply the fact that you weren't prepared to reveal his name

4 that I wanted to explore with you, and I'm quite happy to move on.

5 The stadium. When you were asked --

6 A. If I may say this, he was not politically active and his name is

7 not important at all.

8 Q. I'm with you on that, sir.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse moves on, so we are going to our next

10 subject, Mr. Delic.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.

12 MR. JOSSE:

13 Q. The Mlakve stadium, you were asked some questions about the

14 stadium by the learned judge, Judge Hanoteau, and he used the

15 expression, "Locked up". Would you categorise your stay in the stadium as

16 being locked up?

17 A. Well, the stadium was surrounded by guards and soldiers. In --

18 the soldiers stood immediately next to the wire fence.

19 In the wider perimeter around the stadium, there were groups of

20 soldiers. I know this for a fact because in -- at night-time I could see

21 their cigarettes that they were smoking, and in daytime one could see them

22 standing around.

23 On the stands, the bleachers, one could see soldiers standing

24 guard. The lawyer who worked in the same company I did wore a uniform and

25 stood guard there. His name was Milos. I exchanged a couple of words

1 with him, and he told me that this was a unit from the village of

2 Vodicevo. They were there that day, of course, but otherwise they

3 rotated. They were relieved by other groups. But they were there to

4 guard us. That's -- hence the locked up.

5 Q. You have described a number of people effectively agreeing to be

6 incarcerated in the stadium because presumably they had no other option,

7 or it was their best option. Did I understand your evidence correctly in

8 that regard?

9 A. Look, people were afraid of staying in houses, I said that several

10 times, because during the night, this infamous red van would pull up and a

11 man who was in the house would be taken away. That was why we felt safer

12 when we were together with other people, and that's why I believed I was

13 safer to be there with others rather than stay at home. At least this way

14 there would be people who would know that I had been taken away.

15 Q. Why, then, do you agree to be released? Did you have no option?

16 Did you have to leave the stadium at the point of release?

17 A. What else could I have done?

18 Q. Well, what I'm trying to explore with you is this: Some people,

19 some men, came to the stadium voluntarily and agreed to be locked up there

20 because it was the worst -- I beg your pardon, it was the best of a number

21 of bad options.

22 A. Well, you see, if someone takes me to the stadium at gunpoint and

23 then, after a while, tells me that I ought to go home, what am I to say to

24 this person? No, I'm going to stay here? I don't know what you mean by

25 that.

1 Q. Well, I wasn't asking about you. You have described being taken

2 there forcibly and being detained; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Other people went there voluntarily because --

5 A. That was an insignificant number of people. Those were the people

6 who realised that all or the majority of Muslims had been taken to the

7 stadium and they were afraid to stay at their homes on their own.

8 Q. You had had your pistol removed from you at the point that you

9 were detained; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You've explained why you had that pistol and it was licensed to

12 you; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you aware of any attempt within the Bosniak community to arm,

15 in the event of there being an armed conflict?

16 A. I said that I was not part of the political circles and I was not

17 politically active then, nor am I politically active now.

18 As far as I know, there were no weapons in Bosanski Novi. That

19 period marked by the war psychosis in Bosanski Novi lasted -- or, rather,

20 started with the events in Slovenia, which were followed by the events in

21 Croatia, and then Bosnia itself.

22 Q. So the answer --

23 A. And I said that, on the 11th, they called out dozens of names over

24 the radio of people who had some weapons. They even mentioned the

25 numbers, reference numbers, of the rifles. It was just a part of the

1 overall scenario in search of weapons and extremists.

2 Q. I'd like to just move on and ask you about the school. You were

3 able to visit the school freely; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. The school is some 20 to 30 metres away from my home. When

5 the citizens of Prekosanje and Urije started arriving, at the head of the

6 column there was a blue combat vehicle, and around them there were armed

7 soldiers and police officers wearing blue uniforms and military camouflage

8 uniforms. The people themselves carried several white sheets which

9 signified surrender.

10 Q. Was the school an elementary school?

11 A. No. It was the Djuro Radmanovic school centre.

12 Q. I'd like to move on to the departure, and in particular, the role

13 on the day of the departure, 23rd of July, that Mr. Pasic played. Is it

14 right that he was at the front of the convoy?

15 A. On the 23rd of July, I don't think he was at the front of the

16 convoy, whilst on the 16th he was at the front of the convoy throughout

17 the time.

18 Q. Thank you for correcting me. And what role did he play on

19 the 16th at the front of the convoy?

20 A. He was -- he too was trying to negotiate with representatives of

21 the international community to facilitate the entry of the convoy into the

22 Republic of Croatia and as well as the return of the vehicles.

23 Q. On that day, did you personally attempt to convince

24 representatives of the international community that - I'm trying to put

25 this as neutrally as I can - that the best option for your community at

1 that moment was to depart?

2 A. I wasn't there. Mr. Puric was there on his own, with Pasic, who

3 was at the head of the column, and I believe there was Drazic too.

4 Q. So I need to ask you about the negotiation on the bridge. What

5 attitude did the international community's representative, the gentleman

6 we see in the photograph with the beard, take about the departure of your

7 community?

8 A. He was fully opposed to our departure. He was telling us that we

9 were going towards an abyss, that we should not do that, that he was not

10 mandated to take us out of there, that it amounted to ethnic cleansing,

11 that the UNHCR was not in favour of such actions, that he was there to

12 provide us with humanitarian aid.

13 He said that he was going to get in touch with Zagreb in order to

14 ascertain whether the convoy would be granted entry, but that under no

15 circumstances would this be done under the auspices of the international

16 community. He tried to reassure us and the municipality mayor. He kept

17 saying that the situation would improve and that we should remain in the

18 town.

19 Q. What stance did Mr. Pasic take?

20 A. He wanted us to go.

21 Q. Did he say why to the international negotiator?

22 A. I don't know how exactly he put it, or whether he said anything,

23 but there was no need for him to talk about it. One could clearly see

24 that.

25 I believe that he said during these negotiations that the

1 international community had to make it possible for us to leave and that

2 they should not prevent us from leaving, that we had to leave.

3 Q. Did he explain why he was unable to guarantee the safety of your

4 community?

5 A. No. There was no need for that.

6 Q. Why was there no need for that?

7 A. It's like in mathematics when there are some common knowledge

8 matters that you need not explain, because I have previously explained to

9 you what the situation was like in our town.

10 If I'm in a situation where I have to bury my uncle with ten

11 bullets in his body and he was just an administrator in a kindergarten,

12 nothing more, without me being able to arrange for a prayer at his burial

13 or anything else, then this is quite telling of the situation in the town

14 in general. I believe my earlier testimony showed this quite clearly,

15 although I may have omitted to say many things.

16 Q. Mr. Delic, there is no dispute that the situation for Muslims in

17 your municipality, in your city, in June/July of 1992, was utterly

18 untenable. The question I'm asking you is whether the municipal

19 authorities could do anything to help you, and in particular, whether

20 Mr. Pasic had any control over renegade police and renegade army units.

21 And whilst I'm happy for you to answer that and tell the Chamber your view

22 on that particular subject, I'm specifically asking you whether anyone

23 asked him during the course of the negotiations, "Why can't you as mayor

24 of this municipality, do something to protect these Muslim people?"

25 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Your Honour, I'm going to object to the

1 question. It is a compound question, and it assumes facts that are not in

2 evidence at this point. I think the question should be broken down into a

3 series of questions.

4 MR. JOSSE: It's more than one question; I concede to that. I'll

5 ask the last one first, if I may.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, split it up.

7 MR. JOSSE:

8 Q. Why didn't you say to Mr. Pasic during the course of these

9 negotiations on the bridge, "You're the mayor of this municipality. Why

10 don't you do something to guarantee our safety?"

11 A. I have to tell you that Mr. Pasic was in control of the situation.

12 This was part of a state system, a state apparatus. These were no

13 renegade armies or renegade police forces. There was a Crisis Staff in

14 place, and there was a war situation in the town, not in June/July 1992

15 but ever since 1991 that people were being sent to the front line in

16 Croatia, to Lipik in an organised fashion. They were taken there in

17 Kozara Prevoz's buses, and this is the company I worked for, where I was

18 the technical manager, and although I held that post I wasn't the one

19 organising these buses. Mr. Pasic wanted to protect the Muslims --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Mr. Pasic did not

21 want to protect Muslims.

22 A. -- and Croats, or, rather, if he had wanted to do so, he should

23 have done that much earlier and not on the 11th or the 20th at some

24 negotiations, because these negotiations were all about saving our lives.

25 I told you that it was in one round of these negotiations, I

1 believe it was in Mr. Pasic's office, where we said and suggested that the

2 teams manning these check-points should be mixed, consist of several

3 ethnicities in order to calm the situation down. His answer was no. And

4 there was no further discussion of that.

5 MR. JOSSE:

6 Q. And so I go back to the question I just asked. I rather assumed

7 you'd want to say what you have just said before answering the question

8 that I've just asked, which was why didn't you say to the international

9 negotiator, "He's the mayor of the municipality. He should do something

10 to guarantee our safety"?

11 A. I think -- or, rather, I don't think -- I know that the

12 international community held separate talks outside our presence with

13 Mr. Pasic and asked that he guarantee our safety.

14 Q. Because he says, and this is what I'm putting to you, Mr. Delic,

15 that the situation had spiraled out of his control and he was unable to

16 rein in many elements in both the police and the army, and therefore he

17 couldn't guarantee your safety.

18 A. That's his viewpoint.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to put a question.

20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. I'd like to get an

21 additional information on one thing.

22 You told us that the municipality wasn't very big and because of

23 that people knew each other. Is that -- that's it, right?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can even tell you what you're

25 saying is true but back in 1989, Mr. Pasic, as a lawyer, came for a job

1 interview to my company. He was supposed to be hired as a lawyer. We

2 even hired him, but several days later he quit and went over to Krajina

3 Promet, a commercial company, where he worked as a lawyer. So this proves

4 that we all know everything about each other.

5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Great. But this -- here is my

6 question: During those violent events, among the military who were in the

7 check-points, who were controlling your street, did you recognise any Serb

8 inhabitants of your municipality who would have transformed themselves

9 into military and into armed forces somehow? Did you recognise any?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I told you that people were

11 mobilised in 1991. They were given various assignments, in Lipik and

12 elsewhere, which they had to carry out. I said earlier on that this Stole

13 Skondric, a tradesman, featured as a commander of the town. Mladen

14 Krnjajic, who also worked for this commercial company, wore a uniform, and

15 later on people were saying that he was always together with Mr. Skondric,

16 the commander of the town. And there were many others. Mladen Krnjajic

17 is the name.

18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Josse.

20 MR. JOSSE:

21 Q. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Pasic subsequent to the events that

22 you've described?

23 A. You mean in wartime or after the war?

24 Q. After the war.

25 A. Yes. I met him at the Bosna hotel in Banja Luka in May. I was

1 attending a construction industry seminar organised by the

2 Republika Srpska. I represented my company from Bihac, and I saw him at

3 the hotel there.

4 Q. And did you exchange pleasantries with him or ignore him? Or

5 perhaps he ignored you?

6 A. It was at night-time, music was playing, and I was passing by his

7 table as he was sitting with a group of people. As he saw me, he stood

8 up, he extended his hand and we shook hands. I asked him how he was

9 doing, he told me that he was working for the Prijedor employment agency.

10 I replied by saying that I was working in Bihac. And that was all.

11 Q. Thank you. A few more questions.

12 As far as you are aware - sorry, I'm going back now to 1992 - did

13 the UNHCR have any private meetings with Muslim families in -- it would be

14 July, just prior to the departure?

15 A. I don't know. I never had such information.

16 Q. It's a possibility is the best you can say; correct?

17 A. Why not?

18 Q. I'd like to show you, if I may, a document. This is P11 -- I beg

19 your pardon, D117, MFI. The usher is going to put one on the ELMO, and

20 I've got a hard copy for the witness to look at.

21 This is in both of our languages and seems on the face of it to

22 relate to a departure in October of 1992 of 1560 persons from

23 Bosanski Novi to Karlovac under the auspices of the International

24 Committee of the Red Cross. Do you know anything about this?

25 A. I don't know specifically about that event, but I know that

1 Karlovac, Gradiska and Sisak were some of the destinations that people

2 chose when they were getting away. Sometimes in groups, sometimes

3 individually. But I don't know of this specific event.

4 Q. Can you explain why, on the face of the document, 1560 persons -

5 doesn't say their ethnicity, it's fair to say - were departing in October

6 from Bosanski Novi to Karlovac?

7 A. I don't know how you want me to explain why they were leaving.

8 They were leaving because of the war, away from the pressures they were

9 exposed to. I'm not sure that all of them were from Bosanski Novi.

10 Certainly not, because there were not that many people in Bosanski Novi.

11 I mean Muslims and Croats. So it couldn't have been them.

12 However, in later years, as the war continued, things started

13 happening in town itself. Torching of houses, pressures exerted on people

14 to make them leave, and insufferable living conditions. One of my uncles

15 stayed behind with his wife, and his children tried to get him out for a

16 family reunion elsewhere, and I believe it was in 1992 that it finally

17 happened, but the day after they left, their house was torched.

18 Q. So the position is that a not insignificant number of Muslims

19 remained in the municipality after the 23rd of July departure?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, the witness - I'll read that portion of

21 his answer - said, the question how he could explain on the face of the

22 document, that he said, "I'm not sure that all of them were from

23 Bosanski Novi. Certainly not, because there were not that many people in

24 Bosanski Novi. I mean Muslims and Croats. So it couldn't have been

25 them."

1 That's an answer to the question where you now put to him

2 something totally different.

3 You're asking now whether his position is that a not insignificant

4 number of Muslims remained in the municipality after the 23rd of July. I

5 think you should be more precise then. If it were not 1560 where the

6 witness said clearly that it couldn't be that number where the witness

7 earlier said that a couple hundreds [sic] may have remained, you couldn't

8 put the question in the way you did it.

9 Please reformulate the question or move to another subject.

10 MR. JOSSE: I'll put it a different way, if I may.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

12 MR. JOSSE:

13 Q. You're confirming that there were not 1560 Bosniaks in

14 Bosanski Novi on the 24th of July; is that right? There simply weren't

15 that number left?

16 A. I think that's right.

17 Q. And looking at this document, do either of the two purported

18 signatures, Cedomir Aleksic or Francois Bellon mean anything to you?

19 A. Never heard those names.

20 MR. JOSSE: Could Your Honour give me a moment, please?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please take your time.

22 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

23 MR. JOSSE: Thank you very much, Mr. Delic. I have nothing else.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Josse.

25 Mr. Harmon, any need for further questions?

1 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour, thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Bench also has no further questions for

3 you, Mr. Delic, this means that this concludes your testimony.

4 Before I thank you for having come to The Hague, especially at

5 such a short notice, and having answered all the questions, I'd first like

6 to verify whether any of the parties have any problems with authenticity

7 issues in relation to the documents provided by Mr. Delic, so whether

8 there is any objection to returning the originals to him?

9 MR. JOSSE: No objection to the authenticity.

10 MR. HARMON: We maintain a similar position, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that means that whatever dispute we might

12 have over these documents could be done on the basis of the copies that

13 were made today.

14 MR. JOSSE: Absolutely. I'm being hesitant because Your Honour,

15 with, respect has clearly chosen your words carefully, doesn't amount to

16 an admission into evidence. It's simply no point --

17 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not saying that. But whatever we would like

18 to say, there will be no point where we say we have to look at the

19 originals in order to decide any issue raised --

20 MR. JOSSE: That's certainly our stance.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much for that.

22 Then I think we established already that the video which is of

23 course not an original in any way and has been copied by this Tribunal,

24 that we would not need to keep the copy provided to us by Mr. Delic.

25 MR. JOSSE: I agree.

1 MR. HARMON: The Prosecution agrees as well.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Registrar, would you please be so

3 kind to have the originals returned, both of the documents and of the

4 video?

5 And Mr. Delic, I'd like to thank you not only for coming to

6 The Hague for answering questions of the Bench and of the parties but also

7 for providing us additional documentation, a video that you brought to us.

8 I hope that you'll have a safe trip home again.

9 Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mr. Delic out of the courtroom?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to thank the parties for staying well

13 within the time limits set.

14 I also would like to thank both interpreters, technicians and

15 security for assisting us this afternoon, which enabled us to allow

16 Mr. Delic to finish his testimony today.

17 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, Courtroom II.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.31 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

20 June, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.

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