Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 499

1 Thursday, 2 November 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The case number, IT-97-25-T,

8 the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Kuo.

10 Oh, Mr. Bakrac.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for

12 interrupting you. I just wanted to raise one issue of a technical

13 nature. The case manager explained to us today that there was a

14 misunderstanding yesterday. We had suggested that the statements

15 mentioned by Mr. Vasic, in fact, which he used when questioning the

16 witness, be tendered as evidence, but we heard that the Trial Chamber --

17 we thought that the Trial Chamber had copies of these statements, but we

18 were told that you do not. We don't have them with us, and we want to ask

19 whether it is too late for us to make copies during the break and tender

20 them later today. In fact, we would like them to be marked for

21 identification and later tendered as evidence.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I'm happy to have it marked for

23 identification, but why do you need it? You got an assent from the

24 witness that that is what he had said in the statement, the relevant part

25 of it, so it's in evidence that he said it. We don't want documents in

Page 500

1 just for the sake of having documents. If there's some other part of it

2 that you want to rely upon, Mr. Vasic should have put it to the witness.

3 That's what I said to him. And he put that part and that part only. If

4 the witness had not agreed that that's what he said, then of course you

5 would have been able to have the statement put into evidence to show that

6 he'd made an inconsistent statement. But the fact is he agreed that he

7 said it and he sought to explain it. So I myself do not understand why

8 you would need the document in evidence.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we agree. Then, quite

10 simply, we would like this document to be on the list. It's on the

11 transcript anyway, so we won't tender it into evidence. There is nothing

12 contestable. If anything is contested later, we will tender that as

13 evidence. Thank you.

14 JUDGE HUNT: We'll mark it for identification, 1, and if it is

15 made -- if it has to be made an exhibit later, it can be. But at this

16 stage it is simply marked for identification. When you say it is on the

17 list, I'm not sure what you mean. It's on the list of documents which

18 have been simply been marked for identification, but the document itself

19 is not in evidence. The only part of it which is in evidence is that part

20 which the witness admitted that he had said it to the police.

21 Is there any problem with marking it 1 for identification? Sorry,

22 the court deputy looked a little surprise.

23 THE REGISTRAR: These two documents are actually from the trial

24 binders, and the identification has already been given by the

25 Prosecutor --

Page 501

1 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. The document that was finally produced

2 was not in our binders. It was a different version of it with the same

3 date and also signed. The document itself can be marked for the

4 identification 1, and if you want to have it put into evidence later, we

5 can debate it later.

6 Do you understand that, Mr. Bakrac?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Perfectly, Your Honours. I would

8 like that second document to be included in the list. During the break

9 we'll make a copy. I mean, the copy we got from the Prosecution. We

10 would like it to be marked 1. Thank you and I'm sorry for taking away

11 your precious time.

12 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right. That's perfectly all right.

13 Yes, Ms. Kuo.

14 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 WITNESS: SAFET AVDIC [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]

18 Q. Good morning, Witness.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. I would like to first clarify the timing of some of the things you

21 talked about yesterday. First of all, when you described how there were

22 Serb prisoners who were also kept at the KP Dom that you could see walking

23 through the yard, approximately when was that? What month and year?

24 A. I think that was in the second half of the year 1993. Not before

25 1993.

Page 502

1 Q. And before the second half of 1993, let's say from the time that

2 you were detained in 1992 and then through the first half of 1993, were

3 there also Serb prisoners kept in KP Dom, as far as you knew?

4 A. From the time when I was detained until the time I mentioned,

5 there were very few Serb prisoners, perhaps two or three, which had been

6 already there in the peacetime KP Dom, prisoners who had sentences which

7 they served in the KP Dom. And we found them there when we arrived. I

8 don't know the exact number, but I know there were just very few of them.

9 Q. Did you have contact with those Serb prisoners, those very few

10 that were there at the beginning?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You also mentioned yesterday a time when you met the accused

13 Milorad Krnojelac when he was a reserve major. Do you remember when that

14 was?

15 A. Well, that was not when I met him for the first time. I knew him

16 from before.

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. We in Foca all knew each other. He was working in education

19 services. I worked in forestry. That exercise happened in Zavajt in one

20 of the units of the forestry company, of which I was director. Boro

21 Tesovic was the head of that unit. And these facilities of ours were used

22 in part for the preparation of this military training exercise.

23 Q. When you did see him that time, just that time that I'm interested

24 in knowing, what year was it, approximately?

25 A. That was certainly two or three years before the beginning of the

Page 503

1 aggression. Perhaps 1987/1988. I'm not quite sure, but I'm certain it

2 was two or three years before the aggression.

3 Q. And when you say the accused was a reserve major, in what was he a

4 reserve --

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he said two, three

8 years, and then after that he added "several years." That is not in the

9 transcript. Page 4, line 24. I heard the witness saying, "Two, three,

10 several years before."

11 JUDGE HUNT: That's in the last sentence of the answer then. You

12 say it should read: "I'm not quite sure, but I'm certain it was two or

13 three years, several years before the aggression." Is that what you're

14 saying, Mr. Bakrac?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Well, perhaps you could clear it up, Ms. Kuo.

17 MS. KUO:

18 Q. Yes, Mr. Avdic, there was a question about the number of years,

19 and it sounds like you said several different things. We need to

20 clarify. Again, when was it? How many years before, as you call it, the

21 aggression?

22 A. I said I could not precisely remember how many years, but it is my

23 estimate that it was several or a couple of years. That can mean two or

24 three, four or five. When you cannot give the exact number, then in my

25 book, it's "several" years. Three, four, five means the same thing to me

Page 504

1 as "several." So that expression is the same as saying two, three, four,

2 five. I didn't say many years. Many years is more than 10, 15.

3 Q. And when you place the time of reference as the aggression, what

4 year are you referring to?

5 A. I'm saying -- I'm speaking about the beginning of the aggression

6 in 1992. That's the aggression I mean.

7 Q. Thank you. Just to go back to the question I intended to ask

8 you. Of what organisation was the accused a reserve major?

9 A. That was a military training exercise.

10 Q. Of what -- was it the JNA? Was it some other organisation?

11 A. That was a military drill of the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.

12 And as far as I could see, they were all dressed in olive-grey, SMB

13 uniforms, and this drill included all the conscripts of the territory of

14 Foca. They were all covered by this drill. The commander of the drill

15 was a regular officer of the Yugoslav People's Army, a lieutenant colonel

16 who commanded the drill. He was an active-duty officer.

17 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like, with the assistance of the usher, the

18 photographs that we left off with last session, and they are from Exhibit

19 18 and they are photograph 7528 and 7529.

20 We were looking at 7528. Just to compare the two photographs, is

21 it fair to say that the trees that you see in the middle of 7529, that's

22 the lower photograph - maybe we can have a large shot of both photographs

23 so we can see, yes, thank you - in the lower photograph you see a yellow

24 arrow pointing to some trees; right, Mr. Avdic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 505

1 Q. And then in the upper photograph you also see some trees in the

2 middle of the photograph. Are those the same trees, just viewed from the

3 other direction?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You're a forestry engineer, is that right, by profession?

6 A. I think it is the same.

7 Q. Do you know what kind of trees they are?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What are they?

10 A. In front of the KP Dom, poplar trees -- they were poplar trees.

11 These are poplars.

12 Q. Now, when you were detained and kept at KP Dom, were those trees

13 there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in the upper photograph, is that approximately the view that

16 you would have had from Room 20, looking out across the administrative

17 building toward the river?

18 A. I'm not sure, but it could have been. I'm not certain, however,

19 because from our room, as you can see from the photograph, we could see

20 the bridge and the Drina, this entire bank on -- the left bank of the

21 Drina and the buildings on it. And these structures on the left bank of

22 the Drina are very familiar. I know when these houses were built.

23 Q. The view that you actually had from your Room 20 at the time, how

24 does that compare to what is shown in this photograph, that is, 7528? Did

25 you have a better view of the river and the bridge, the same, or a worse

Page 506

1 view in terms of being able to see the bridge?

2 A. From Room 20, where I was, these trees did not block the view,

3 because our room was more to the south relative to this photograph,

4 relative to these trees. But we could see less of the bridge. We

5 couldn't see the middle of the bridge -- we could see the middle of the

6 bridge and the end of the bridge, but we couldn't see the beginning of the

7 bridge from our room; whereas in this photograph, you can see where the

8 bridge starts and where it ends on the left bank. From our room, we

9 had -- we didn't have such a good view of the place where the bridge

10 starts. We could just see the opposite bank and the middle of the bridge.

11 Q. You mentioned that the view you had -- your room was further

12 south. Can you indicate on the photograph which direction, then, you

13 would be more toward? To the left or the right?

14 A. More to the left.

15 Q. Just to clarify on this photograph. Do you see the yellow arrow

16 pointing? Can you tell what the is pointing toward? Is that the

17 bridge?

18 A. This yellow arrow -- we see parts of the frame of the bridge in

19 the corner. Where the arrow is pointing, there could be part of the arch

20 of the bridge.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Avdic.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, I think you would be entitled to ask him

23 directly whether the height of the trees were the same then.

24 MS. KUO: That's my next set of questions, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

Page 507

1 MS. KUO:

2 Q. I know you've testified, Mr. Avdic, that the trees did not

3 obstruct your view from Room 20, but I'd like to ask you some questions

4 about the tree nevertheless.

5 Do you know -- I'll tell you these photographs were taken in June

6 of 1996. In 1992, when you were detained at the prison, were the trees

7 the same height or were they smaller?

8 A. The crowns of the trees, when I was detained, and in the time when

9 these photographs were taken, could differ but not necessarily. In view

10 of the age of these trees, and that is more than 30 years, the growth

11 upward of these trees stagnates. The trees grow in the width. And these

12 are poplars, you understand. They grow to a certain height and then they

13 stagnate and they grow in the width. So there is no major difference in

14 those three and five years in the height.

15 For instance, the black pine grows in height much more than these

16 poplars, and after 25 -- 20, 25 years, poplars are felled to be used in

17 industry, because they would start creating problems obstructing parking

18 lots, et cetera, around many buildings.

19 Q. When you say the poplar grows -- stops growing basically in height

20 but grows in width, do you mean just the trunk or do you mean the top

21 branches? Do the top branches also spread out?

22 A. They grow but not at such a rate as when they are five or ten

23 years old, because at 25, 30 years, their growth stagnates. Every year

24 has its own rate of growth in height. Black pine grows 35 and more years

25 in height, whereas the poplars grow fast -- they're fast-growing trees

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Page 509

1 until 25 years. And in that period, they reach the same height as the

2 black pine does in 120 years.

3 Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Avdic, a little bit about the visibility

4 through the branches of a poplar tree? Is there some visibility, or is

5 there a complete foliage cover, looking through them?

6 A. As far as poplar trees are concerned, their foliage is denser, and

7 visibility is poorer through the crown of a poplar tree. But, for

8 instance, the crown of a birch has a foliage which gives greater

9 visibility. Through its branches and leaves you can see better than

10 through the crown of a poplar tree.

11 Q. If there were car headlights that were on the other side of these

12 poplar leaves, the tree, would you be able to see the light through the

13 trees? And let us assume these trees, so it's one level of trees.

14 A. Yes, headlights could be seen through the foliage of a birch.

15 Q. I'm sorry. I'm talking about --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Poplar trees. Interpreter's mistake. Poplar

17 trees.

18 A. Yes. We could see the light. Headlights could be visible.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, coming from a country as I do where poplars

20 are an exotic plant, I'm not sure whether they are even deciduous. Would

21 you like to clear that up for me?

22 MS. KUO:

23 Q. Would you please answer the Judge's question?

24 A. The poplar is deciduous, whereas the black pine is an evergreen.

25 Poplar trees and birches which existed in the compound are deciduous, and

Page 510

1 so are acacias, otherwise called black locusts, are deciduous, all of

2 them, whereas the black pine is a conifer.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you for adding to my knowledge.

4 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. We're going to continue with

5 a few more questions on trees since we're on the topic.

6 Q. Since we are on the topic, I have a couple more photographs to

7 show you of different parts of the KP Dom. You've seen some of them

8 already. With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to show you first

9 photograph 7472 and 7473.

10 You've identified yesterday for us the photograph in 7472, and to

11 the right of that photograph there is a tree. Can you tell us about that

12 tree? What kind is it? Was it there when you were in the KP Dom?

13 A. This is a birch, a deciduous tree, so it has no foliage in

14 winter. And I was detained in a room which cannot be seen from here.

15 This is the administrative building and the entrance from the guards' room

16 to the courtyard of the KP Dom.

17 Q. Was the birch tree or the birch trees about that height and width

18 when you were detained there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is the birch also a slow-growing tree, or is it similar to the

21 poplar, that when it reaches a certain size, it stops growing?

22 A. The birch is also a fast-growing tree to some extent, but it grows

23 slower than the poplar.

24 Q. Are you able to see through the foliage of the birch tree?

25 A. Yes.

Page 511

1 Q. I'd like you to look at the second photograph, then. There is a

2 tree in the middle of this photograph, to the left of the number 2. Can

3 you identify those trees?

4 A. These are acacias. They are usually grown in parks. It has a

5 crown. From this part, the trunk starts spreading into the crown, which

6 can be about 1 metre, 1.5 metres high, and it looks like a mushroom. The

7 branches and leaves form a mushroom shape. Every year you cut the

8 branches and leaves and give them -- and shape them. So when the leaves

9 grow again, it looks like a semi-sphere.

10 Q. Compared to the way these particular trees were in 1992, and

11 bearing in mind these photographs were taken in 1996, do you see a

12 difference in the height or shape of the trees?

13 A. There is no difference.

14 Q. Just to orient ourselves in this photograph. To the far right of

15 the photograph, do those appear to be the same birch trees whose tops you

16 saw in the previous photograph?

17 A. The previous photograph, we saw trees outside the KP Dom.

18 Q. I'm sorry. I meant the photograph just above it, on the same

19 piece of paper, 7472. You identified some birch trees there and you also

20 identified the administrative building.

21 A. Yes, this one.

22 Q. And it appears to me, and I would like for you to clarify it, it

23 appears to me that the photograph on the top is the top of the birch

24 trees, and the photograph on the bottom shows the bottom of the very same

25 birch trees. And perhaps you can help me clarify that.

Page 512

1 A. It could be this part of the tree as regards the tree on the upper

2 photograph. So this could be the canopy, or the upper part of the crown

3 could belong to these trees. It could be, perhaps, this trunk here. Or,

4 again, a completely different tree, because it doesn't show, because it

5 only got a part of the crown. It need not necessarily be the crown of

6 that tree which we see on the lower photograph, but from some other trees.

7 Because on this side here, there were birches -- no, excuse me -- yes,

8 birches and that is where we went through to enter this building here. So

9 there were also birches here. Now, is this the crown of the trees that we

10 see on the lower photograph, I really cannot say now.

11 Q. Thank you. I'll show you, then, another photograph. It's 7512.

12 The top photograph, and there is a set of tall trees to the right of

13 number 1, between the numbers 1 and 2 on that photograph. Are those the

14 birch trees that we've been talking about?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then to the far right of that photograph, do you see a tree --

17 you can see half of the tree. What tree is that?

18 A. This here is a spruce. This is a spruce. And these are the

19 acacias of the park variety, with a mushroom-like -- a mushroom-shaped

20 crown, and this here in the far right corner is a spruce, and this is a

21 coniferous tree. And all the other trees, the birches or the acacias,

22 they are all deciduous.

23 Q. I'll ask you to look at the bottom photograph, 7513. Do you see

24 that same spruce tree in this photograph?

25 A. Yes, this is it. You can see the top. It is this spruce here.

Page 513

1 Q. Just a final question about this tree. Was the spruce tree about

2 the same height in the photograph when you were detained in 1992?

3 A. The spruce could have grown 1 metre, 1.5 metres, because this --

4 this one is still growing upward. It is a tree some 20 years old. I

5 think it was planted 20 or 25 years ago. So it is still gaining both in

6 height and in width and in volume. So that this spruce could have been --

7 could have grown 2 metres, perhaps, 2.5 metres.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MS. KUO: I would ask the Chamber if there are any questions

10 regarding trees before we move on.

11 JUDGE HUNT: That's the end of our botanical lesson, is it?

12 MS. KUO: Thank you.

13 Q. Mr. Avdic, I would like to turn once again to what happened in the

14 KP Dom when you were detained there. Yesterday you mentioned that there

15 were times when groups of five or six men were taken out, described

16 hearing the moans, the screams, the beatings, the shots, and then

17 disappeared. You mentioned that on some occasions you heard the car start

18 up, drive along the road, and you saw part of -- you saw the car on part

19 of the bridge and you heard the splashes in the water.

20 How many times did you hear the car go across the bridge and the

21 splashes in the water? Because you mentioned that there were five or six

22 times when you heard the beatings. But how many times did you hear the

23 car following the beatings?

24 A. I saw a car going across the bridge once, that is, moving across

25 the bridge, stopping, and those objects hitting the surface of the water.

Page 514

1 It was on one occasion that I heard it and saw it.

2 And as regards the inmates being taken out, I watched it through

3 the window at various times, and on a number of occasions I could hear

4 moans, sobbing, and so on.

5 Q. The times when you did not hear the car, do you know what happened

6 to the bodies of the detainees who were taken out that way?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And the detainees who were taken out in that way, did you ever see

9 them again?

10 A. No. And the families and other people I talked to after I came

11 out of the KP Dom, not one of them ever called to say he was alive, and

12 their families are still trying to trace them.

13 MS. KUO: I would like, with the assistance of the usher, for the

14 witness to be shown Schedule C of the indictment.

15 Your Honour, we're assuming that because this was part of the

16 indictment we do not need to mark it as an exhibit. If the Court wishes,

17 we can do that, but I don't think -- we've gone on the assumption that

18 it's not necessary.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I think it would be better if you could give us a

20 copy and we'll formally mark it as an exhibit, because the indictment is

21 not in evidence, and if were, it might be evidence of the facts which it

22 asserts, which would not be, I think, acceptable to the accused.

23 MS. KUO: Your Honour, we're checking now to see -- I've been

24 informed that it's already received an ID number. Your Honour, in fact,

25 Schedule C has been premarked with an identification number of 55, and

Page 515

1 that would be the first page in the binder that we're going to submit in

2 evidence later on in the trial, which contains all the personal

3 information of these particular individuals. So we would like to retain

4 the identification number 55, if possible.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection, Mr. Bakrac, to the tendering

6 of Schedule C for convenience?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. That will be Exhibit P55.

9 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. And could the witness please be

10 shown this.

11 Q. Witness, there are 29 names on this list, and I would like for you

12 to start at the top, and when you see the name of someone that you saw at

13 KP Dom, could you please let us know who that person is, what you know

14 about the person, and what you saw happen to the person at KP Dom? And

15 when I ask what you know about the person, perhaps you can give us an

16 approximate age, profession, and anything else you might know about that

17 person.

18 A. I'm sorry. Do you want me to read out only the names of those

19 whom I know with those explanations, or do you want me to read all the

20 names?

21 Q. Only the ones you know something about.

22 A. Refik Cankusic, he worked -- he was a clerk at Maglic; a youngish

23 man.

24 Q. I'm sorry. I don't mean to interrupt you, but when you describe

25 the person, could you also let us know if you saw anything happen to that

Page 516

1 person at KP Dom, and whether specifically you saw the person being taken

2 out in this way that you've described the beatings.

3 A. Refik Cankusic was taken out one night. He was in those -- one of

4 those groups of five, six men who were beaten in the administrative

5 building of the KP Dom.

6 Kemal Dzelilovic was also rather young. He was also taken out

7 with one of those groups.

8 Nail Hodzic could be in his 60s, a driver. And he was also taken

9 out with one of those groups.

10 Halim Konjo, a rather young man, he was a publican. He had his

11 own restaurant. And he was also taken out.

12 Nurko Nisic, a young man, a worker; he worked either for the KP

13 Dom or the municipal hall, I can't remember now. But he was rather

14 young. And he was also taken out with one of those groups of five or six.

15 Kemal Tulek, former guard in the penitentiary, in the KP Dom, he

16 was also taken out with one of those groups. He was in the same room with

17 me, Room 20, and then he was taken out one late afternoon and disappeared,

18 together with those groups of five or six men that they would take out in

19 the early evening hours, and take them to the administrative building of

20 the penitentiary.

21 Munib Veiz, he was a salesman in a shop in Foca. And he was also

22 taken with one of those groups in the late afternoon hours.

23 Q. Witness, are you done looking through the list?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you described Munib Veiz, can you tell us what age he was and

Page 517

1 what -- yes. Tell us what age he was.

2 A. Well, he was rather young too, 30, maybe 35. He had a family. He

3 was quite a young man and he was a rather stalwart man, well-built.

4 Q. Now, you've mentioned seven individuals from this list that you've

5 described as being taken out in the way that you described earlier. Are

6 there other people on the list whom you saw at KP Dom who were not taken

7 out in this way? I mean, not that they were not taken out in this way,

8 but other people in addition to those that you've mentioned, that you can

9 simply tell us you saw at KP Dom?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac. I'm not quite sure I understood the

12 question.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned friend said

14 when she asked this question that the witness should read out only the

15 names of those persons he knew. So how can he say whether some other

16 people that he did not know were taken out or not if he doesn't know them.

17 The question to him was to read out the names of those people he knew.

18 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that it was as limited as that. He was

19 asked in a context, who did he know who had been taken out and who had not

20 been seen again. He's now being asked did he know whether any of those

21 other people were actually in the gaol but he had not seen them taken

22 out. That's the way I finally understood the question, which was, if I

23 may say so, not the best expressed.

24 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE HUNT: If you could ask it again along those lines, as far

Page 518

1 as I'm concerned, it would be admissible.

2 MS. KUO: Actually, I think the Court asked the question perfectly

3 with my intention, and if the witness can answer that.

4 A. From this list -- of this list of names, there are names of people

5 that I know who were in the KP Dom, but I had no personal contact with

6 them, nor did I know them before. It was only in the penitentiary, in the

7 KP Dom, from other inmates who were with me that they said, "Oh, this one

8 is so and so," and would say a name. So that quite a number of those

9 names, I do recall as many as 80 per cent of these names from the KP Dom.

10 I do remember, for instance, the name Alija Altoka. I remember that name

11 from the KP Dom. Or Juso Dzamalija, Ramo Dzendusic, Adil Granov.

12 Q. Why don't we go through the names one by one and you tell us if

13 you know the person by name or in any other way and what you know about

14 that person. Let's go down the list so everybody can follow.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, before you do that, have you not got any

16 evidence of who was in the KP Dom? I know that we've heard some evidence

17 that they were never registered when they arrived, and it's directed to

18 that, is it? Simply to show that they were in the KP Dom.

19 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, and also because these people are

20 unable to come testify. We would like to get as much information about

21 them as possible.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. If you don't have any lists of who was in the

23 KP Dom, this is the only way you can go about it.

24 MS. KUO: Absolutely, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE HUNT: I was wondering what the necessity was, but I see it

Page 519

1 now.

2 MS. KUO: Yes.

3 Q. So you can begin at the top of the list, and tell us if you know

4 that person was at KP Dom through your personal knowledge, or if someone

5 else told you that he was there.

6 A. Alija Altoka, the first and the last name, I saw personally, but I

7 did not know that was this man's name, and then one of the inmates told

8 me, "Well, the name of that man is Alija Altoka."

9 Juso Dzamalija, I did not know him personally. But when we

10 watched people come out of the rooms to go for lunch or supper, or

11 ultimately their going out from the compound or, rather, through the gate

12 of the KP Dom, people who were being either exchanged or something else,

13 then we would focus our attention on them to see who was going out. Of

14 course, naturally, I did not know all those people.

15 Ramo Dzendusic, he could have been something around 45 years of

16 age.

17 Adil Granov, he was from Granovski Sokak, a youngish man, about 35

18 to maybe 40.

19 Nail Hodzic, 65-ish, a driver for Focatrans.

20 Halim Konjo ran his cafe shop, a rather young man.

21 Nurko Nisic, also relatively young.

22 Kemal Tulek, he was also a youngish man, a former guard in the KP

23 Dom.

24 Munib Veiz, I've already told you, a youngish man, a salesman.

25 And Zulfo Veiz and others, from my conversations with other

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1 people; and after I came out of the penitentiary, I learned many of these

2 names later on.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Avdic. We'll move on, then.

4 Were people -- detainees taken out by guards and told that they

5 were going to be exchanged?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you describe how this was done? What would happen?

8 A. Well, sometime during the day, the guard who was inside would be

9 called by the guard at the gate, and he would go to the gate. And the

10 guard from the inside, the guard who was in a part of the administrative

11 building, would hand over a list, a piece of paper, to the inside guard.

12 Q. When you say the guard inside, inside what?

13 A. Inside the camp compound where we were kept in buildings.

14 Q. And when you say the gate, what gate are you referring to?

15 Perhaps I can show you again -- perhaps I can show you again Exhibit 6/1,

16 and you can just point that out so that we all know what we're talking

17 about.

18 JUDGE HUNT: You mean 6/1, do you?

19 MS. KUO: 6/1.

20 A. I mean this gate here. This one here.

21 Q. Thank you. Is that, then, the same gate where the lists were

22 passed from the outside to the inside in the evening as well, the ones

23 that you described preceded the beatings?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What would happen when the guard from the outside would pass the

Page 523

1 guard from the inside that list?

2 A. Then, following the inmates list and knowing -- and since that

3 policeman knew which inmates were in what room, they would unlock the room

4 and would call out the inmates in that particular room. And he would say,

5 "Get your affairs ready; you are off to be exchanged," on such

6 occasions.

7 Q. When this would happen, did you want to be exchanged?

8 A. Well, it happened sometime during the day. And after two or three

9 such exchanges, I, since I had a heart condition, I would always be

10 excited, I would always get impatient. Oh, if only I could get out, if

11 only I could get out. Considering that if the policeman said, "You are

12 off to be exchanged," then to me it meant release, release from the camp,

13 and a crossing over, possibly, meeting -- uniting with my family.

14 And from a worker who was a medical lab assistant and who worked

15 in the infirmary, in the hospital, in the facility where they administered

16 some kind of treatment to these detainees, and formally the convicts were

17 trained, I would go there of course at my personal request. And after

18 reporting to the guard, that is, after telling him that I was not feeling

19 well and could he take me to this male nurse -- lab assistant, and I went

20 to him and I asked for some medicines for my heart or for some sedatives.

21 And I asked him two or three times, "Listen, Gojko, I'm a sick man, I'm an

22 old man. Could you intercede on my behalf to see that I'm exchanged too?

23 Can they put me on the list so that they exchange me?" And he always told

24 me, "Just keep your mouth shut. Don't say anything, because you will be

25 the safest here," I mean within the compound of the penitentiary, of the

Page 524

1 KP Dom.

2 And it was only after I left the KP Dom that I understood what he

3 meant, "You will be the safest here," because many of those who had left

4 for the so-called exchange, who had taken their affairs when the guard

5 told them, "You'll be exchanged," those people are still missing, and

6 their friends and their families are still trying to trace them, but there

7 is absolutely no information about them. Naturally, I learned that after

8 I left the KP Dom.

9 Q. Was there an instance when a group of detainees were taken out and

10 not told that they were being exchanged but told that they would go pick

11 plums?

12 A. Sometime in September, in the latter half of September, a group of

13 men, some 35 of them - I'm not sure about that number - also at some point

14 during the day, a guard brought a list and called them out and said, "You

15 are going to work." He did not say, "You are going to pick plums." But

16 since that was the latter half of September, we simply -- knowing what

17 fruit ripens at that period of time, and these are plums, we called them a

18 pluming group. Some 30 of them were taken away. They were not told that

19 they were going to be exchanged, they were told that they were going to

20 work somewhere. And they were put together rather hastily, so that some

21 of them didn't even have enough time to dress properly.

22 And they were taken out, and from my room, when they called them

23 out, one of those men who was called out asked the guard, he said he was

24 not feeling well and he could not really work, so could he be excused, and

25 he left that man behind. But then he called out somebody else from our

Page 525

1 room.

2 Q. Do you remember who the man was from your room who was taken in

3 this group?

4 A. Yes, Hadzimesic, who was another male nurse, or an engineer.

5 There were also other men who were from outside in my room. But I

6 remember those two names very, very well. And from my room, there must

7 have been some eight -- seven or eight of them who were called out that

8 day, that day in the latter half of September. But these two names, I'm

9 sure about them.

10 Q. Just to clarify. What year was this? September of what year?

11 A. 1992.

12 Q. Did you ever see any of those men again who were called out in

13 this way?

14 A. No.

15 Q. I'd like to focus now on the guards. If you remember the names of

16 the guards and what they did, we can discuss it that way; or if you

17 need something to refresh your memory about the guards that you saw there,

18 you can ask to see your prior statement as well.

19 Are you able to remember the names of the guards who were there at

20 the KP Dom?

21 A. I can't remember all the names. If I could perhaps get to see my

22 earlier statement.

23 MS. KUO: With the usher's assistance, I would like to have the

24 witness shown what has been marked --

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object. We can have

Page 526

1 the witness look at the list of employees of the guards and staff rather

2 than the earlier statement of the witness. That would add to his

3 credibility. It would be much more expedient to give him a list of the

4 guards employed at the time so he can tell us whom he recognises and whom

5 he remembers, rather than give him his own earlier statement.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, if the objection is taken, I think that it

7 must be upheld. You have to get him to exhaust his memory first, and then

8 once his memory has been exhausted, subject to anything Mr. Bakrac has to

9 say, I would permit him to refresh his recollection from the statement.

10 But you have to start from what his actual memory is. And of course as

11 Mr. Bakrac says, that is going to increase the credibility of that

12 evidence at least.

13 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. I was hoping -- we can certainly do

14 it the way Mr. Bakrac suggests. It's rather an extensive list, and I was

15 trying to cut the time off by using --

16 JUDGE HUNT: I understand. But if the objection is taken, I think

17 you'll have to do it this way.

18 MS. KUO: That's fine, Your Honour. I can have the witness shown

19 instead the Exhibit P3 with the list of guards, and go down the list.

20 Q. What I'm going to show you know, Mr. Avdic, is a list of the

21 employees of the KP Dom, and what we would like for you to do is go down

22 the list and when you see a name of a guard that you recognise, if you

23 could tell us the name, and then also tell us, to the best that you can

24 remember, what you saw the guard do.

25 MS. KUO: Perhaps the usher can put the 3A exhibit on the ELMO so

Page 527

1 that everybody can follow.

2 A. Jegdic, I know the man as Jegdic, and whether his name was

3 Radivoje or not, but he was in charge of the storage room.

4 Risto Ivanovic, guard ...

5 Q. Perhaps I can stop you there. When you see the name of someone

6 you recognise, could you please tell us the number to the left of that

7 person's name so that we can follow? So when you said Jegdic, that was

8 number 7; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Let's do this. Tell us the number first and then the name.

11 A. Yes. I know the last name Jegdic. He worked as the keeper of the

12 storage room of the warehouse where food supplies were kept, the food

13 supplies which we used in the kitchen to prepare food, to prepare meals

14 for the inmates. And from that storage facility, the supplies were

15 transported to the kitchen where food was prepared.

16 Number 9, Risto Ivanovic, guard; number 11, Savo Todovic,

17 nicknamed Bunda, that's what we called him.

18 Q. Yesterday you mentioned a Todovic who seemed to be in charge of

19 the work crews. Is that the same Todovic?

20 A. Yes, what I told yesterday about calling people out to labour in

21 the mine and elsewhere.

22 Number 26, Milenko Cancar, guard.

23 Q. Did you ever see this guard participate in the taking out of

24 prisoners either for the so-called exchanges or the beatings?

25 A. I did not really pay attention which of the guards is calling

Page 528

1 people out at a given moment, and I can't say that. I had no wish to meet

2 the guard or see him, look at his face, so I can't tell you which of the

3 guards was whom. The one who was on duty on a particular day called out

4 the names. Of course, it didn't happen every day. But the guard who was

5 on duty in that particular shift called out the names and took them out as

6 far as the gate.

7 Q. Just to continue on that for a moment. Those were definitely

8 guards and not soldiers?

9 A. Those were the guards who worked in the KP Dom, policemen/guards.

10 They were not soldiers. Perhaps at some point, because there had been

11 cases when operations were organised involving people being taken out in

12 the field, perhaps some of these guards were involved in such operations

13 and were replaced for the time being by other people who were not regular

14 guards but who were on staff in the KP Dom, and who would temporarily

15 occupy the posts of the absent guards. But they were not soldiers, no.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, while the witness is looking at the list, in

17 the light of those answers, what is the point of all this? He can't

18 identify who was actually involved in the taking out because he didn't

19 take any notice of them.

20 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. I think that that's a fair enough

21 observation, and we can stop with this particular exercise.

22 Q. Witness, we will no longer need to go through this list, but thank

23 you.

24 Mr. Avdic, when were you registered with the International Red

25 Cross?

Page 529

1 A. Towards the end of December 1993. I think it was the 23rd or the

2 24th of December, 1993.

3 Q. Do you know why you were not registered before that time?

4 A. Although they came on several occasions before in the KP Dom, I

5 mean the International Red Cross, our room which contained about 15 people

6 was always concealed from the Red Cross and our names did not feature on

7 the list of detainees in the KP Dom.

8 Q. How were you concealed from the Red Cross?

9 A. I said on several occasions we were taken to the factory, and we

10 were brought once, for instance, purportedly to work there, because the

11 man who came to collect us said, "You're going to work in the factory."

12 Once we were in the bakery; once we were sort of tucked away in Brioni.

13 But after a couple of times, we knew what this whole thing was about and

14 we told the guard, "But the Red Cross is coming," but he wouldn't discuss

15 it with us. He would just say, "I have my orders."

16 In view of this situation in which, for instance, we had two

17 brothers detained in the camp, one of which was registered by the Red

18 Cross and another was simply hidden in one of the rooms, so the brother

19 who was registered insisted with the Red Cross that the other brother be

20 registered too, but the people from the Red Cross would reply that the

21 brother was not on the list. They would say, "We asked the KP Dom to give

22 us a complete list," and that was in fact true.

23 For instance, we in our room who were hidden, we were -- we had

24 all our things collected from that room and taken away, and Serb prisoners

25 were brought to our room in our stead, and when the Red Cross came, they

Page 530

1 were shown the Serb prisoners and they were told, "You see, there are no

2 other things, no other people's effects in this room." And only towards

3 the end of December 1993, they allowed the Red Cross to visit us.

4 And when we were listed by the Red Cross, I, for one, was brought

5 letters from my family. From that time on, I knew that they were alive

6 and well, and I had -- I was able to write to them. And that inspired in

7 us a certain feeling of safety, of certainty that we would survive. But

8 until then, every day was complete uncertainty, constant anticipation of

9 the moment when we would be taken out.

10 Q. Do you remember when the first time the Red Cross made -- when it

11 was that the Red Cross first made its visit?

12 A. The Red Cross used to come, I don't know exactly when, but in the

13 beginning of 1992. And the first time they came - we were watching from

14 our windows - they were accompanied by people from television who had a

15 camera with them, and in the part of the courtyard where there was a

16 flower garden and the trees, the birch, and acacias, they were allowed to

17 pass through that part of the courtyard and they could just pass a pack of

18 cigarettes to the inmates through the window and they were not allowed to

19 film inside the KP Dom.

20 And the first time when they came and registered, actually, a part

21 of the people was in 1992, but I cannot say the exact time. I know it was

22 after the first visit. And after that, before we were registered, they

23 came four or five times. They came several times before we were actually

24 registered.

25 Q. I notice on the transcript that you mentioned the first time the

Page 531

1 Red Cross --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 MS. KUO: Sorry.

4 Q. I notice on the transcript that you mentioned the first time the

5 Red Cross came to visit was the beginning of 1992. You weren't detained

6 at KP Dom until May of 1992. So I wonder if you could clarify that.

7 A. Then that could have been June or July when they first came,

8 because I saw them, and I was detained on the 19th of May. But when I say

9 "the beginning of the year," I mean in my understanding that that can

10 include May and June. That was the most traumatic experience for me, that

11 year, and the year, in a way, began then.

12 Q. You've described to us how at one point you spoke with this

13 medical worker. Can you tell us what access you had to medical

14 treatment? Could you see a medical worker any time that you needed to?

15 A. I could see them -- I could see him every day, every time. Every

16 day when the male nurse or orderly was there, the guard would ask us

17 inmates, "Does anyone want to see the doctor?" The guard referred to him

18 as doctor. And we gave our list. We had our own senior man in the room

19 who would give the guard the list on our behalf. The guard would take the

20 list, look at it, and he would say, "Oh, this is too many people for

21 tomorrow. Make it shorter by half." And if there were less people who

22 applied to see the nurse, he would accept the list; if there were more, he

23 would say, "Cut out half of them."

24 And also there was a principle. If I had seen the doctor the week

25 before and if I were on -- if I was on the list for the current week, the

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1 guard would say, "You went last time. You can't go this time again." So

2 practically I was not allowed to see the nurse when I wanted to or when I

3 needed to.

4 Q. Was there any sort of procedure where you could ask to have your

5 very detention reviewed? In other words, was there any way for you to

6 request formally that you be released or that a reason be given for why

7 you were continued to be detained?

8 A. No, we did not have anything of that kind. And as for myself, I

9 didn't even try to get answers to such questions while in KP Dom simply

10 because I could see that only Muslims were detained there. I drew my own

11 conclusion that I was detained because I was a Muslim, and practically

12 everyone was civilian. There were no people who were involved in military

13 operations, who had been involved in military operations. All the people

14 I knew there did not even possess weapons. And knowing all that, I

15 concluded that we were in that concentration camp just because we were

16 Muslims. Some, not myself - I said that before - tried to get the guard

17 to explain, but no way, he would not discuss it, he wouldn't have it. I

18 say "the guard," because you couldn't reach anyone else from the

19 administration. Without the guard's approval, you could not contact

20 anyone from the administration, except for contacts with the guards'

21 commander. You could only reach the guard or the guards' commander, no

22 one beyond them, if we had any issues to raise.

23 Q. Mr. Avdic, yesterday you testified that Milorad Krnojelac was the

24 warden of the KP Dom. Do you know when he was replaced as warden?

25 A. I don't know when he was replaced. I don't know that.

Page 534

1 Q. At some point did there come a new warden to the KP Dom?

2 A. Later on I learned that there was -- that we had a new warden,

3 that Milorad is no longer warden, that there was another man. I learnt

4 that later, in 1994. But when that man appeared to replace Milorad, I

5 don't know that.

6 Q. In your prior testimony, you testified that the total number of

7 days that you were detained at KP Dom was 897. During those 897 days, can

8 you describe what physical effects of the detention you suffered? I want

9 to focus just on the time that you were in the KP Dom, and the next

10 question will focus on the time after. But right now, just while you were

11 at KP Dom.

12 A. Considering that we were unable to keep clean, that we had no

13 protection from the harsh winter of 1992/1993, we had no heating, we did

14 not have enough winter clothes to keep warm, so wounds opened up. Frost

15 bite appeared on my body, and that remained unhealed for several years.

16 After I got out of the KP Dom, I went to see the doctor who gave me some

17 creams and ointments which would alleviate the condition but only for

18 awhile, and then it would appear again. I had to go for surgery later

19 on. Certain examinations which I underwent determined that I had skin

20 cancer, and it was a result of those wounds I mentioned. So I had

21 surgery. It has healed now, but I have to go to see the doctor for

22 regular checkups. And that is an established consequence of my detainment

23 in the KP Dom.

24 I had asked the doctor whether my condition could be a consequence

25 of the lack of hygiene and the frost. I asked him -- I'm sorry. I failed

Page 535

1 to ask the doctor whether that could be a direct consequence of all that I

2 had suffered, the frost and the lack of hygiene. I forgot to ask that.

3 Q. And aside from the skin conditions that you've described, while

4 you were at KP Dom, can you tell us any other physical effects you

5 suffered? You mentioned that you had a heart condition. Did you already

6 have that problem before you were taken to KP Dom? And did it get worse

7 while you were there?

8 A. Before I was brought to the camp, I had a heart attack, so I had a

9 heart problem before. But after I was brought to the camp, the situation

10 changed. I did not have enough medicines which were available to me --

11 which had been available to me before. On one occasion, the guard

12 confiscated all our medication and all our documents. That happened after

13 a failed attempt of one of the inmates to escape. And everything that we

14 had, even concealed in the mattress, as I had, was taken away. The guard

15 ripped the mattress, found the medication, and took it away. And he even

16 searched my clothes and took away whatever he found in my trousers.

17 The mental pressure was huge from all we went through, from

18 everything that happened in the camp, and the inability to find out

19 anything about the fate of your family; the everyday uncertainty about

20 what would happen to you next, whether you would be the next one on the

21 list; and being locked up constantly, except for the 20 or 30 minutes that

22 you spent going to and from meals; listening to the life stories and

23 problems of all the people in the same room; being cut off from the

24 outside world.

25 And at the very beginning, some people had a small radio

Page 536

1 or something, but as soon as the guards found out, such things would be

2 confiscated and the owners would be taken into solitary confinement, so

3 that after only two or three months, we were completely cut off and we

4 were denied any information about the outside world from the

5 administration of the camp or the guards, let alone the press.

6 But when the Serbs were brought in, they had access to television,

7 the press. And then also the hunger. In two or three months at the very

8 beginning, I lost 40 kilos. I had weighed 95 kilos, and after two or

9 three months, I weighed 55. For 10 or 15 days we did not have to go to

10 the bathroom. And we maintained that weight for about a year or so.

11 Later they increased the rations but the food remained awful.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, we have to cut it off here, I'm afraid. The

13 question you asked, I very nearly stopped you because it was only going to

14 invite a very long answer. I wish somebody in your team would keep your

15 mind on the time.

16 MS. KUO: I was aware of the time, Your Honour. I didn't want

17 to ...

18 JUDGE HUNT: You really shouldn't have asked it. The translators

19 and the typists have a terrible time, and extra time like this always

20 places greater pressure on them. We'll adjourn now until 11.35.

21 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

24 MS. KUO:

25 Q. Mr. Avdic, could you tell us, please, what psychological effects

Page 537

1 your detention at KP Dom had on you at the time that you were there?

2 A. Those were horrific pressures on existence. Those were types of

3 excitement which wouldn't let you sleep, and sometimes wouldn't let you

4 even eat. One's mind wasn't at peace. One didn't know what to do with

5 oneself. At times you feel like banging your head against the wall. And

6 also psychological states and problems of inmates, of us who were in the

7 room together, their problems, their problems, their individual

8 difficulties, all add up. So that apart from the fear that you feel for

9 your life, what about your next of kin? What about your dearest ones?

10 You know nothing about them. What is in store for you? What will the

11 next day bring? What will the next night bring?

12 So it is a burden, and one tries not to go mad. And that is my

13 request, my plea, to be somewhere outside, outside a locked room, to do

14 something, to do some work which is not too hard, in view of my age and

15 the state of my health. So that my plea to the guard came of my own

16 will. I asked the guard to let me do something in the KP Dom.

17 Q. Let me ask you some specific questions about how you felt. Did

18 you feel intimidated by the atmosphere that was created at KP Dom?

19 A. To death. Scared stiff.

20 Q. Did you also feel humiliated, like you were treated in a

21 humiliating way?

22 A. Well, I was used to be respected, to being shown respect. But

23 there we were practically zeros. We were not human beings, we were just

24 objects in that KP Dom. They exchanged some for money, for objects. He

25 would give a man a car and he would be released. He'd give 100.000

Page 538

1 dollars to somebody, I don't know whom, and then he'd pull out that inmate

2 and exchange him, that is, release him over to his family. So we were

3 objects, we were not human beings. We were not respected as human

4 beings.

5 Q. Did you know any people who were released by having given money to

6 somebody at the KP Dom?

7 A. Yes. About 100.000 marks. And some Serb prisoners too. Not by

8 the guards, but they themselves asked me, "Got any money? Because if you

9 give us money, then you can be released from the camp." The Serb

10 prisoners who were there, not the guards. I guess those Serb prisoners

11 had information and knew that one could be released from the camp for

12 money.

13 Q. My final question to you, Mr. Avdic, is: To this day, do you

14 suffer psychological effects as a result of what happened to you at KP

15 Dom?

16 A. Yes. Nights are worst. I do fall asleep, but hardly a night

17 passes without a dream, without my dreaming about those situations, about

18 those events, and fear. In the morning, after I wake up, I am perspiring,

19 I'm sweating, because I dream about all of those things very often. And

20 my wife, because I told her these things, but she asked me, "Why are you

21 crying?" Because I cry aloud while I sleep during such dreams. And I

22 never told -- I never tell my wife what these dreams are about. But I'm

23 all covered in sweat when I wake up.

24 MS. KUO: Your Honours, these are all the questions I have for

25 this witness. There are a couple of exhibits I would like to deal with

Page 539

1 before --

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, we were given a new document, 122/1, and of

3 course there's the ICRC document there, 122.

4 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE HUNT: (redacted)

6 (redacted).

7 MS. KUO: Yes.

8 JUDGE HUNT: It may be there's sufficient detail. But it's a

9 matter for you.

10 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. What I would like, perhaps to get a

11 little bit of guidance from the Court is, is how the Court wishes to

12 proceed. We have entered the transcript into evidence, and of course

13 these exhibits that I'm referring to -- or I'm going to refer to were

14 mentioned in the prior testimony. They can either be attached as part of

15 the transcript and the prior testimony and retain the numbers from there.

16 I think that would be a little bit confusing. We have renumbered these

17 particular exhibits, and we can reenter them now.

18 JUDGE HUNT: I think it would be much safer for us all if you

19 tendered the documents again with their new numbers.

20 MS. KUO: Very well, Your Honour. Then what we would propose is,

21 what has been marked for identification already as ID 122, which is

22 indeed the ICRC certificate - in the transcript it is referred to as

23 Exhibit 45 and was entered as such - we would propose to enter into

24 evidence as P122.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection to that, Mr. Bakrac?

Page 540

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. The exhibit will be P122.

3 MS. KUO: There is another exhibit referred to in the transcript

4 which Your Honour has just mentioned; it is now identified as D122/1. It

5 was referred to in the transcript as Exhibit 45/1. So we propose to enter

6 that into evidence now as 122/1.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not know which

9 document that is. All I have is 122/1 ID, and that is the ICRC

10 certificate. Are there two of them or is it a mistake?

11 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I can --

12 JUDGE HUNT: 122 is the ICRC certificate, and 122/1 is a

13 certificate from the Bosnia-Herzegovina State Commission for the Exchange

14 of Prisoners of War, and that's referred to in the evidence that Mr. Avdic

15 gave before at page 696.

16 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I think that the confusion is that we have

17 given all our copies of these exhibits to the Deputy Registrar, and we do

18 that ahead of time so that they don't have to be distributed at every

19 moment. We assume that she is making the distributions, but apparently

20 she has not given it in this case to the Defence counsel and probably

21 that's why he is confused.

22 THE REGISTRAR: We have already given this to the Defence

23 counsel.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Show him my copy, would you? Show Mr. Bakrac this

25 copy. See if he's seen it. The B/C/S is the second document there.

Page 541

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] This second document didn't have a

2 number; hence, the -- that is, the B/C/S version of the document did not

3 have a number; hence the confusion.

4 JUDGE HUNT: There's no objection to it?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. That will be Exhibit P122/1.

7 MS. KUO: The final exhibit that we propose to enter is -- was

8 referred to in the transcript at page 670 as Exhibit 178, and we have --

9 we propose to enter that into evidence as P396.

10 JUDGE HUNT: That is the photograph of the destroyed mosques, is

11 it?

12 MS. KUO: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, I have the photograph. Again,

14 it is not marked. But I have no objection.

15 JUDGE HUNT: What number should it be given now? This is a new

16 number, then. It will be 396.

17 MS. KUO: I believe that is our next number.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That will be Exhibit P396.

19 MS. KUO: And as far as other exhibits that may have been referred

20 to during the cross-examination in the prior testimony, we are not

21 proposing that those be entered in at this point.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

23 Yes, Mr. Bakrac, do you wish to cross-examine this witness, or is

24 it Mr. Vasic?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I shall do that, Your Honours.

Page 542

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

2 Q. Mr. Avdic, good morning.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. I'm the Defence counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac in this

5 case.

6 I should first like to ask you something about the military drill

7 that you told us about and at which you saw the accused. You said that

8 you were not sure but that you thought it was in 1987 or 1988. You also

9 said that this drill was commanded by a military from the Yugoslav

10 People's Army. Did I understand you well, that other participants in that

11 drill were people from the area who were members of the Territorial

12 Defence of Foca or that region?

13 A. I was there only in late afternoon at this facility with the drill

14 commander, in the office of the work site, because we had a dinner with

15 the commander and he had invited me and my colleague, because we knew one

16 another. And that commander is a military. I did not see many soldiers

17 in that area. But whatever the case, I saw that gentleman in the office

18 as he worked there with two more persons wearing both uniforms, olive-grey

19 uniforms. And I assume that that gentleman was conducting some

20 preparations for the next day's drill. And this commander was not

21 particularly happy --

22 Q. I understood you.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I cut in, may I

24 interrupt the witness, because we already heard this and I'm interested in

25 something else; so as not to waste time.

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Page 544

1 A. I did not see all the troops.

2 Q. But does that mean that at that time the accused was a member of

3 the Yugoslav People's Army?

4 A. No. Well, yes, at that particular moment, because he was wearing

5 a uniform.

6 Q. But would you say that he was a member of the Territorial Defence?

7 A. Why, yes, the Territorial Defence. And the Territorial Defence

8 was incorporated in that drill, that drill which was commanded by a

9 military person.

10 Q. So the accused was not in the service of the Yugoslav People's

11 Army. What was his job at that time; do you know that?

12 A. At that time he was in education. He was a teacher. He was

13 not --

14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Avdic, just one moment. Please, both of you,

15 remember that this has to be translated, and when you are speaking in the

16 same language, you proceed but the translators are still going. So pause

17 before the question and pause before the answer.

18 Now, Mr. Avdic, I realise that this means a lot to you, but please

19 don't get excited. You have had troubles with your health, and I remember

20 (redacted) you got yourself so excited at one stage during the

21 cross-examination that you had to have a break. So please just try and

22 take it quietly, would you? We do understand that you are under some

23 emotional pressure, but we don't want you to become sicker than you have

24 been.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it is important

Page 545

1 for the witness -- I should like to assure the witness that I shall try to

2 be as correct as possible in my questions. I am taking care of his

3 condition both when I phrase the questions and when I think them up. So I

4 shall, indeed, be correct, bearing in mind his condition. I do apologise

5 to the interpreters and to the Court. I hope as we go on that I shall get

6 better so far as the speed of my -- my speed is concerned.

7 Q. So you say that the accused was a teacher and that he attended

8 that drill in the uniform as a member of the Territorial Defence. Did I

9 understand you well?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. In 1987 and 1988, did people of a Muslim origin also wear a

12 military uniform of the Yugoslav People's Army?

13 A. I suppose so. Those who were participating in the drill with the

14 accused, they must have been wearing military uniforms.

15 Q. Do you remember, the military person whom you went to see, what

16 was his name?

17 A. I do know.

18 Q. Will you tell us?

19 A. Your Honours, must I say? Must I give the name?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour.

21 JUDGE HUNT: This is somebody else who was there at the time that

22 he saw your client, is it, Mr. Bakrac, that you're after?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I can ask what

24 ethnicity that person was in the Yugoslav People's Army whom the witness

25 came to see. We do not have to mention the name, if that is acceptable to

Page 546

1 the witness.

2 A. He was of Muslim ethnicity.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. At that time he must have been of Serb ethnicity, because later on

5 he perhaps changed to Muslim ethnicity. But at that time, as a military

6 person, I believe they all had to be of Serb ethnicity, because I do not

7 know if Muslim ethnicity was on the list. I don't know. I did not ask

8 him. But he has a Muslim name, both first and last name. But whether he

9 was also Muslim ethnicity, I did not ask him and I cannot say.

10 Q. There is no need to go further into this. My next question: You

11 said that the rooms, and specifically the room that you were kept in, had

12 two dormitories -- four dormitories.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You said that in the afternoon or, rather, in the evening, after

15 your evening meal, it was locked up.

16 A. It was locked up at all times; it was locked up non-stop, except

17 when they took us for breakfast, lunch, and supper. No sooner would we

18 get back and all be in the room than it would be locked up again.

19 Q. When you say "locked," you mean every one of these four rooms,

20 four dormitories, or just the entrance into the room?

21 A. I said that the room which was called as Room 16, 18, 20, it would

22 have four dormitories to itself. Those were not locked. And in those

23 rooms, 16, 20, all the prisoners who would be in one room could

24 communicate, because those rooms, those bedrooms, were not locked.

25 Q. You mentioned that the prisoners went to work in the Miljevina

Page 547

1 mine.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Would you please be so kind and tell me, if you can remember, as

4 of when?

5 A. I cannot give you the exact time, but it was at a later stage.

6 When the Miljevina mine began to work, then they began to take some men to

7 the KP Dom.

8 Q. When you say "later on," could you please be more specific?

9 A. 1993. 1993. It's 1993 when they began to send people to the

10 mine.

11 Q. Which part of 1993?

12 A. Well, this can only be an assumption on my part. I do not really

13 know exactly.

14 Q. Well, can you tell us roughly what part of the year?

15 A. Well, it could have been as early as March.

16 Q. You said that in 1993 and after that, after you'd begun working in

17 the kitchen, that solid fuel had to be used to prepare food. Could you

18 explain to us why?

19 A. Yes. Wood was used to prepare meals. Well, they had those

20 cauldrons outside and so wood was used to fuel it, or possibly in the

21 kitchen.

22 Q. But on the basis of that, could we infer that the central boiler

23 room was out of use?

24 A. Correct, it was out of use.

25 Q. Was it destroyed?

Page 548

1 A. I don't know if it was destroyed. But there was no central

2 heating, and the kitchen had to use cauldrons and a fire would be made

3 under them.

4 Q. Mr. Avdic, could you tell me, in your view, as of September 1993,

5 how many prisoners were there still in the KP Dom?

6 A. In September 1993, well, perhaps some 300, 350. I can't ...

7 Q. Thank you. Will you please be so kind and tell us -- I'm not

8 referring to the quality, I'm asking you only if you had three meals a

9 day.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. My next question, Mr. Avdic, has to do with the photographs -- oh,

12 no, excuse me, it will be better if we quickly went through this list in

13 Schedule C, which was shown to you by the Prosecution. I shall show it to

14 you, with the Court's leave, to move on faster, and I will ask you only

15 about the rooms in which the prisoners that you know were kept.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'll try to speed this up as much as

17 possible. With the Court's leave, may I phrase my question that way?

18 JUDGE HUNT: That is Exhibit P55, and, yes, please show it to the

19 witness.

20 Mr. Bakrac, I don't know if it's any easier for you, but are you

21 able to move your microphone to the other side of your screen? You would

22 have less trouble being heard, and you would not have to turn round all

23 the time.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] This might be better perhaps.

25 Q. You said -- the first name you mentioned as the name of a person

Page 549

1 you knew was Refik Cankusic. Which room was he in; do you remember?

2 A. I don't know. Your Honours, may I give an explanation? When I'm

3 asked who was in which room of the persons on this list, there was one

4 entrance to the building from Rooms 11, 13, 14, 15 which housed inmates;

5 the entrance to another wing led to Rooms 16, 18, 20, 19, 21. So that I

6 don't know who was in which room, except for an inmate who was taken out

7 of my own room.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, it would seem, if you accept that

9 explanation, you could find out from which building they came, building A

10 or building B. But I don't think the witness will be able to help you any

11 more.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I understood the

13 witness correctly, he cannot tell us where people were by rooms, except

14 for the people who shared the same room with him. That is enough

15 explanation for me. If he can specify the wing, let us do it that way.

16 Q. Refik Cankusic, wing A or wing B, as we identified them?

17 A. If the first entrance to the left led to wing A, then he would be

18 from wing A.

19 Q. Kemal Dzelilovic?

20 A. I can't say.

21 Q. I can't see in the transcript whether I -- you heard the answer.

22 I can't see. Yes, it has appeared now.

23 Nail Hodzic?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Halim Konjo? Nurko Nisic?

Page 550

1 A. Left wing, that is, wing A.

2 Q. Kemal Tulek?

3 A. Room 20, because I was together in the room with him.

4 Q. Munib Veiz?

5 A. I don't know.

6 THE COURT REPORTER: There was no answer for Halim Konjo.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Thank you.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, you asked one question with two names,

10 Halim Konjo and Nurko Nisic, and we've got the one answer. I understood

11 it at the time to be -- to have been given in relation to the second name,

12 and the witness did not appear to answer or know anything about the first

13 of those names in that question. That's Halim Konjo. If you want to

14 clear it up, now is the time.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, I hadn't noticed in the

16 transcript. We can clarify that now.

17 Q. Nail Hodzic?

18 A. I cannot say for certain. It's possible that he was in wing A.

19 Q. Halim Konjo?

20 A. Same here. He might have been from wing A.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I think we have clarified it, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Sorry. Another one.

25 Q. Nurko Nisic?

Page 551

1 A. Nurko Nisic was in wing A, on the left-hand side.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] My next set of questions has to do

3 with the photographs that the witness has been already shown by the

4 Prosecution.

5 With the usher's assistance, I would like to show the witness

6 photographs 7512, that's the upper photograph, and then the lower

7 photograph, 7513.

8 Q. Please look at the upper photograph first, 7512. Mr. Avdic, would

9 you kindly show us which room is 18 and which is 20, if you can identify

10 them on this photograph?

11 A. Yes. Room 16, on the ground floor; on the first floor, Room 18;

12 Room 20, on the next floor; and on the next floor, 22.

13 Q. Thank you. Will you please now look at the lower photograph. Can

14 you see from this perspective -- can you show us these rooms?

15 A. Room 16, Room 18, Room 20, and Room 22.

16 Q. Thank you. Would you agree, looking at this photograph, that the

17 level of the roof and the level of the floors are completely the same on

18 this photograph?

19 A. The level of the roof and the level of the floors?

20 Q. Would you agree that they are on the same level, that there is no

21 difference in level between the wing and this frontal part?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to take

24 the next photograph. With the usher's assistance, I would like to show

25 the witness photograph 7442. That's the upper of the two photographs. I

Page 552

1 will not deal with trees, but perhaps with a little bit of construction

2 and perspective.

3 Q. You have shown us the way which is convenient to you. Will you

4 agree with me that this photograph was taken from above the level of the

5 road, from the opposite bank of the Drina River relative to the KP Dom?

6 A. From the left bank of the Drina.

7 Q. Opposite the KP Dom?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Looking at the vehicle on this picture, would you agree with me

10 that it is obvious that the photograph was taken from a level considerably

11 above the road, that the photographer is standing higher than the road?

12 A. I don't know whether it was considerably higher, as you put it, or

13 not.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, you are going to get the photographer to

15 ask these questions of. It's a shame that he or she could not have been

16 called first, but apparently he or she is ill. But you will have the

17 photographer to help you with these things. You don't need to ask every

18 witness about it.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honours, but I'm only

20 asking him to answer as far as he can see, whether he can notice it,

21 whether he can say anything about that.

22 A. I'm sorry. We can see a section of the road here. We cannot see

23 the entire width of the road.

24 Q. All right. All right. We won't go further into this.

25 Please tell me, can you see the building we had shown on the

Page 553

1 previous photograph within the KP Dom?

2 A. That is this building. We can see the roof and the windows inside

3 the KP Dom.

4 Q. The windows of which floor, sir?

5 A. The windows just below the roof.

6 Q. Which floor would that be, Mr. Avdic?

7 A. One, two -- the third floor.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With the usher's assistance, I would

10 like to show the witness the next photograph, that is, photograph 7529,

11 the lower of the two.

12 Q. Mr. Avdic, would you agree that this photograph was also taken

13 from the opposite bank of the Drina?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell me now what you see on this photograph, which part of

16 the building we had just discussed?

17 A. We can see this part of the building.

18 Q. Please forget the trees. We noted that the --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Witness and counsel are overlapping.

20 A. That's building B. If the first building was building A, then

21 this -- this entrance would be building B.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Are you waiting for the question? The question was: What can you

24 see of building B now?

25 A. I can see the roof and windows of building B.

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Page 555

1 Q. Can the windows be seen in full, in their entirety?

2 A. We can see five or six windows in this photograph.

3 Q. Whole windows?

4 A. Yes, whole windows.

5 Q. Please tell me now, Mr. Avdic, if we can see the third floor like

6 this, then how could you see over the top of the roof from the second

7 floor?

8 A. Well, first of all, the angle from Room 20 is not the same as the

9 angle of this photograph. From Room 20, the windows from which you can

10 see across the roof of the administrative building --

11 Q. Mr. Avdic, we don't want to waste much time over unnecessary

12 things. We noted that the same -- floor 2 is on the same level. Now,

13 tell me, if you were looking from the wing closer to the administrative

14 building, and I'm a lawyer, but if a window is closer to an obstacle, then

15 the angle is narrower.

16 A. I maintain, I put it to you and the Court and I swear on my life,

17 that I heard the lights -- I saw the lights on the car and I heard the car

18 stop on the bridge and I heard the objects hitting the water. And I saw

19 it, I am sure of this. When you are standing up, standing at the window,

20 you can see over the top of the roof the second half of the bridge towards

21 the left bank.

22 Q. Mr. Avdic, on this picture we see the other bank of the river, not

23 the middle of the bridge, and we can see that not even the entire window

24 of the third floor is visible. It is clear to everyone here present that

25 you cannot see from the second floor if we have a photograph like this in

Page 556

1 front of us.

2 A. You can see, and I saw.

3 Q. In this same connection, with the Court's leave, I would like to

4 ask another question.

5 In the Sarajevo Security Centre, on the 12th of October, 1994, did

6 you give a statement?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On that occasion, on the 12th October of 1994, was your memory of

9 events better than in October 1995? I'm waiting for your answer,

10 Mr. Avdic.

11 A. Perhaps less so than in 1995, because my mental condition when I

12 was just released that year, after not having been able to see m family,

13 I didn't manage to calm down enough and I was very anxious, very excited.

14 Q. Why didn't you then, Mr. Avdic, ask the investigator who took the

15 statement, why didn't you say that you had seen these things? Why did you

16 say that you had just heard them?

17 A. Perhaps he did not insist. Perhaps he didn't ask the question.

18 Perhaps I had thought that it was unnecessary. I don't know.

19 Q. Thank you. My next question would be: Have I understood you

20 correctly, Mr. Avdic, when you said that on the 19th of May, 1992, you

21 were practically arrested by a man wearing a military uniform?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was it a military uniform or a military police uniform?

24 A. It was an SMB uniform, olive-grey.

25 Q. Is it true that he took you to the KP Dom, turned you over to the

Page 557

1 guard and told him to take you to a cell?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did the guard do so?

4 A. The guard took me to Room 18.

5 Q. Without any registration or anything?

6 A. Whether he made any record or called out someone else that I

7 should be registered, I don't know.

8 Q. Mr. Avdic, I'm not quite certain that I understood you correctly

9 when you were answering the question of the Prosecution, so I would like

10 to clarify one point.

11 Within the KP Dom, within the compound, from the moment when you

12 were detained, did you see any guards in uniforms?

13 A. The beginning.

14 Q. What kind of uniforms?

15 A. They were camouflage uniforms, there were military uniforms, and

16 they were guards in civilian clothing.

17 Q. You said camouflage. Which colour camouflage?

18 A. You know the multicolour camouflage uniform.

19 Q. SMB?

20 A. SMB is one thing, and the camouflage is another thing.

21 Q. What colour was the camouflage uniform?

22 A. There is green, there is blue, there is white.

23 Q. When you say "in the beginning," could you specify until when?

24 A. I cannot say exactly, but it did not last a long time. Those in

25 camouflage uniforms, from their speech and other factors, they were from

Page 558

1 outside and paramilitary units; and later all the guards were from the

2 territory of Foca and the guards who had worked earlier as security of the

3 KP Dom.

4 Q. Mr. Avdic, I would like to remind you of a part of your statement

5 to the Prosecution, and I would like you just to clarify it.

6 "Before the end of June or early in July 1992, in the Curovo

7 village near Tjentiste, and brought to the KP Dom. Among them were Abid

8 Lagamija, Ekrem Lagamija, Nazif Lagamija, Hasib Vejo, and Nazif Vejo. All

9 of them were beaten up after being caught."

10 Did you mean inside or outside the KP Dom, "after they were

11 caught"?

12 A. When they were caught they were beaten. Secondly, after that

13 they were brought outside the hotel, and Hasib Vejo had to eat one kilo of

14 salt in front of the hotel.

15 Q. It is clear to me, Mr. Avdic, now.

16 A. After that they were brought to the KP Dom, where Hasib Vejo, who

17 had his hair cut, he told me that he had been beaten in the administration

18 building of the hotel by Burilo, who stuck his baton down his throat.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Avdic. I would like to ask you about another part

20 of your statement. Is it true that you told the investigators of the

21 Tribunal in The Hague -- or, rather, I shall read out two paragraphs, lest

22 it be taken out of context.

23 "Milorad Krnojelac was warden of the KP Dom Foca. He used to be

24 a teacher earlier." That is all you had said.

25 Next paragraph: "His deputy was Savo Todovic, also known as

Page 559

1 Bunda. He was the most active and seen most frequently by the detainees.

2 He was in charge of work obligations and he assigned prisoners to various

3 duties. Once, one of the detainees attempted to escape. As a collective

4 punishment, Todovic cut the rations of all the prisoners and ordered all

5 the rooms to be searched and all the medicines owned by prisoners to be

6 confiscated. He was also in charge of putting prisoners into solitary

7 confinement. He also ordered me to be put into solitary confinement when

8 knee-length socks were found on me."

9 A. The first part of the statement, when the solitary confinement --

10 Q. Sorry, Mr. Avdic. Unless the Court objects, I would like to know

11 whether, on the 16th and 17th of October, 1995, you gave the statement to

12 the investigators of The Hague Tribunal?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was it voluntary, and did you sign it?

15 A. It was voluntary.

16 Q. What I just quoted, that is a part of the statement you gave on

17 that occasion which you said you had signed and had given voluntarily. I

18 don't need any further information.

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no more

21 questions.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination?

23 MS. KUO: Just a very quick one, Your Honour.

24 Re-examined by Ms. Kuo:

25 Q. Mr. Avdic, on page 53, line 22, of the LiveNote, that's for the

Page 560

1 Court's reference, you said that regarding Hasib Vejo, he told you that

2 Burilo beat him up, and the transcript says "in the administrative

3 building of the hotel." I just wanted to clarify that. Was that the

4 administration building of the hotel or of the KP Dom?

5 A. Outside the hotel, they forced him to eat a kilo of salt. And it

6 was in the administrative building of the KP Dom that the guard, Burilo,

7 beat him up and rammed a rubber baton down his throat. So it was the

8 soldiers of a paramilitary army, or I don't know who, who forced him to

9 eat a kilo of salt in front of the hotel, and then when they were brought

10 to the KP Dom, he was beaten up. He told me about that. He was all black

11 and blue. And he told me about Burilo who had rammed a baton down his

12 throat.

13 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, I have one question. I just want to ask the

16 witness: How often did you see the accused, Mr. Milorad Krnojelac, in the

17 KP Dom? I mean on some other occasions. For instance, when you looked

18 out of the window, on your way to the dining hall, or at some working

19 sites, how often did you see him?

20 A. The first time when I went to see the warden, and perhaps two or

21 three times after that. No more than that did I see him on the territory

22 of the KP Dom. But after my first visit, I didn't go to see the warden

23 anymore.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Does either party have any questions arising out of

25 that material?

Page 561

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know if this is

2 acceptable. It is not in reply to these questions and answers, but I have

3 a point to make, if you allow me.

4 JUDGE HUNT: You mean you want to ask some further questions in

5 cross-examination?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Just one question as part of the

7 cross-examination which I had omitted.

8 JUDGE HUNT: That's perfectly all right. But of course it will be

9 subject to any re-examination. That's all.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It is just one brief question.

11 Further cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

12 Q. Mr. Avdic, you said that you were registered by the International

13 Red Cross in December of 1992 for the first time.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Are you aware that in your statement which you say you made in

16 this security service centre in Sarajevo, you said that you were

17 registered on the 24th of December, 1992.

18 A. No. Excuse me. But if it says so in this statement, then it was

19 my error.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like to tender

21 this statement into evidence. It's the ID number that the Prosecution

22 gave it, ID 121, which is the B/C/S version; and the English version is ID

23 121A. I can give a copy to the Registry so as to locate it easier. And

24 since there was that one statement as D1, I would then suggest, if I may,

25 that this become D2.

Page 562

1 JUDGE HUNT: Can you tell us whereabouts in the statement there is

2 the reference to the Red Cross registration.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, excuse me, all I have

4 now is the B/C/S version, and that is --

5 JUDGE HUNT: Can I just read to you -- I think I've found it. Is

6 it this one sentence: "I was hidden from the representatives of ICRC till

7 24th of December, 1992"? Is that the bit that you want?

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, you are quite right, Your

9 Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Ms. Kuo, so far as it is of some relevance, it

11 is inconsistent, I think, with his evidence. That's all.

12 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HUNT: This was a matter that was dealt with in the

14 transcript of the Kunarac trial.

15 MS. KUO: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. And also I think the

16 witness has sufficiently explained it.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection to the tender of the

18 statement?

19 MS. KUO: No.

20 JUDGE HUNT: It will be, in fact, Exhibit D1.

21 Mr. Bakrac, I don't want there to be any misunderstanding about

22 this. The document which was marked for identification earlier on today

23 is simply that, it's marked for identification. It's not an exhibit.

24 This will be your first exhibit. It will be Exhibit D1.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, but then I should

Page 563

1 like to also file with the Registry a copy of the statement of yesterday,

2 and then it would be marked as D2, if I am following you.

3 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, I'll explain it to you again. You

4 obtained -- or at least Mr. Vasic obtained from the witness yesterday his

5 agreement that the statement that was read out to him had been made by

6 him. So you do not need the document to go in to show that that was the

7 statement that had been made by him. It is marked for identification only

8 if it arises in some other way, because it's not a document which the

9 Prosecution had given us in the folders.

10 This one will be D1. The one from Mr. Avdic will be D1.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If I understand you well, Your

12 Honour, the only problem is that the B/C/S version and the English version

13 were not identical and that was why we had to tender that statement,

14 because yesterday there was this discrepancy in the B/C/S version.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Are you suggesting there's some discrepancy in these

16 two versions of Mr. Avdic's statement?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, I did not even try to establish

18 that yesterday. I thought that the misunderstanding that we had was

19 because of that.

20 JUDGE HUNT: There was no discrepancy between the B/C/S and the

21 English versions of the document upon which Mr. Vasic cross-examined. The

22 discrepancy was that there was another document of the same date which was

23 an incomplete version. Both of them were signed by that witness but they

24 were two entirely different documents. Now, the contents upon which

25 Mr. Vasic relied in his cross-examination was accepted by that witness.

Page 564

1 We do not need that document in evidence.

2 Now, do you get it this time? I hope you do.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, you have clarified it

4 perfectly, Your Honours. Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Now, I have no questions of the witness,

6 but I do have a witness of the Prosecution before the witness leaves.

7 All of the principles of physics which Mr. Bakrac gave us during

8 the course of his cross-examination is all very well, but is there any

9 photograph taken from the room that Mr. Avdic was in?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I was present when these photos

11 were made, and it was done in a rather early stage of this investigation

12 and we were not aware at that time of the importance of Room 20. And I do

13 not think -- at least in these photos there's none. And that is actually

14 also the reason why the Prosecution intended to make a motion that the

15 Court visits the crime scene. But the problem at that point in time is,

16 given the recent occurrences in Foca, we think from the prospect of

17 security, it's at least in the next couple of weeks not possible. Then we

18 have January and February which makes it almost impossible for weather

19 reasons to go there; that is, the earliest we can do it is March.

20 But the other idea I can think of is that Mr. Bakrac has a better

21 collection to Republika Srpska and could get photos from the room. I

22 mean, that is the other thing -- point I could think of.

23 JUDGE HUNT: My suggestion was, although it would be very pleasant

24 to visit Foca but not in February, surely the quickest way is to have a

25 photographer go there one way or the other. Perhaps you and Mr. Bakrac

Page 565

1 can discuss this, and it's made very clear to that photographer the

2 particular room in which Mr. Avdic was detained and then photographs can

3 be taken. There will be a problem, perhaps, with the trees, but we'll

4 worry about that when we see the photographs. But it is of some

5 importance, and whilst I understand the way in which Mr. Bakrac

6 cross-examined, it's not very easy to follow when you have angles and

7 closeness, and I think we'd have to have some expert evidence on that.

8 The quickest way, I think, is to have a photograph.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that's the best we could do.

10 The problem is we have very, very limited access to Republika Srpska, and

11 if we make now our request to let a photographer from our office go there,

12 it will take months, probably, for us, if at all. Therefore, we will

13 discuss it with Defence counsel.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. One other question I had of the

15 Prosecution. The letters "SMB," are they described anywhere in the

16 transcript? I don't think so. They've been used quite often to describe

17 military clothing of some description.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And the witness has always referred to

19 the old JNA uniform, and that is the SMB uniform. But I wouldn't be able

20 to describe it, but probably each witness.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, may I suggest that you ask Mr. Avdic what he

22 meant by SMB? Or he accepted the term. I noticed it was used yesterday

23 with the other witness and I didn't pick it up at the time. But I'd like

24 to know what colour it was.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

Page 566

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Page 567

1 Further examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

2 Q. Yes, Mr. Avdic, can you tell us what an SMB uniform looked like?

3 A. It was an abbreviation standing for grey/olive. That is olive

4 colour because it is an olive-green.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Does anyone want to ask any questions

6 about that?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.

8 JUDGE HUNT: The Prosecution?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

11 Well, Mr. Avdic, you may leave now. Thank you for giving

12 evidence. I don't know whether we'll be seeing you again here.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE HUNT: The next witness, is it 85?

15 MR. SMITH: That's correct, Your Honour. If Your Honours please,

16 my name is Bill Smith and I appear for the Prosecution. This witness

17 hasn't asked for any protective measures, Your Honour.

18 At this stage, I'd just ask that I'll pass the documents that I'll

19 probably be using in the testimony, that the witness will be referring to,

20 and the first document that I'd ask that be placed on the witness' podium

21 is the pseudonyms of a few other witnesses that he may name that may be

22 coming to the Tribunal.

23 JUDGE HUNT: He won't be using a pseudonym now.

24 MR. SMITH: He won't be using a pseudonym, but there are a few

25 witnesses he may refer to.

Page 568

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE HUNT: Take the solemn declaration, please, sir.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 WITNESS: DZEVAD LOJO

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

8 Yes, Mr. Smith.

9 Examined by Mr. Smith:

10 Q. Good morning, Witness. Could you state your full name to the

11 Court.

12 A. Dzevad Lojo.

13 Q. Mr. Lojo, I'm just giving the usher a document, and as we

14 discussed prior to testimony, if you refer to -- if you wish to refer to

15 the names of the people that are placed on that document, could you please

16 use their numbers and not their names? Is that okay?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Mr. Lojo, when you give your testimony, can you please take your

19 time, because it's being interpreted by the translators, and wait until I

20 finish my question and the interpretation is made and then answer.

21 A. Very well.

22 Q. Mr. Lojo, how would you identify yourself from an ethnic point of

23 view?

24 A. I am a Muslim, or a Bosniak. A Bosniak Muslim, that's the best,

25 perhaps.

Page 569

1 Q. And you were brought up in Foca, in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. Indeed.

3 Q. Where did you --

4 A. I was -- that is where I was born and that is where I grew up.

5 Q. In which part of Foca did you live prior to the war in 1992?

6 A. Before the war, I lived in two or three different places. But I

7 was on the street the 29th of November, no house number. I was there when

8 the war broke out. It is quite a large residential building with quite a

9 number of -- many-storied building, and I lived on the top floor, last

10 entrance. That was the fourth floor.

11 Q. And this is in the centre of town of Foca?

12 A. Yes, that is the heart of the town.

13 Q. How many other families lived in that apartment building?

14 A. Nine, I think. About nine families.

15 Q. At that stage, prior to the war, what was your job?

16 A. I worked for the timber company, Maglic, and I was head of the

17 research and development sector that year, 1992. Before that, of course,

18 I held other jobs.

19 Q. And you're an engineer; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, I'm an engineer. I graduated in applied chemistry; that is

21 correct.

22 Q. What size was the Maglic company?

23 A. It was quite a large company. It employed some 3.000. It had its

24 own forests, its own sawmill, and several board-making plants, a furniture

25 factory, and its own sale network, series of outlets.

Page 570

1 Q. Were you also involved in any management position at the company?

2 A. Yes, I was on the board, since the director -- our director is

3 person number 1 in charge of investments and developments. And I was also

4 a member of the steering board of the company, again in charge of research

5 and development.

6 Q. How many other members were on the board?

7 A. I think some eight or maybe ten. Eight to ten members. I'm not

8 quite sure but thereabouts.

9 Q. And before the war began in 1992, did you have any military

10 associations?

11 A. None. None whatsoever with any army.

12 Q. Were you active politically in Foca?

13 A. I wasn't a member of any of the national parties. My sympathies

14 laid with social democrats, but at that time I didn't belong to any

15 political party.

16 Q. What were the main parties in Foca at that time, the main national

17 parties?

18 A. The main ethnic or national parties were the SDA, that is, the

19 Party for Democratic Action, and the SDS, the Serb Democratic Party.

20 There were some other parties but these two were the ones in power.

21 Q. Did you own any weapons or have any weapons at your residence

22 before the war began?

23 A. No, I never had any weapon at home.

24 Q. And on the 19th of April, 1992 you were arrested; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 571

1 Q. Where were you when you were arrested?

2 A. When I was arrested, I was in Jovo Milosevic's apartment. This is

3 the same building where I live except that the entrance is difference.

4 And I was, for reasons of safety, with him because I thought that Jovo

5 Milosevic, with whom I worked and who was a forestry engineer, I thought

6 that he would protect me.

7 Q. And what ethnicity is Jovo Milosevic?

8 A. Jovo Milosevic is a Serb.

9 Q. Who arrested you?

10 A. I was arrested by a group of armed individuals, headed by a

11 guardsman whom I had met even before that when he broke into the flat.

12 And I think he had with him two other uniformed men of Serb ethnicity from

13 the town of Foca, whom I knew -- rather, I know the name of one of them.

14 Do you want me to give you the name? I don't know the name of the

15 other one. Oh, no, sorry, I think I know even the name of that other

16 person too.

17 Q. Yes, you can supply the name.

18 A. One was the son of my colleague, Veljo Vukadin. So that his last

19 name is Vukadin and I don't know his Christian name. And the other one is

20 Vukovic, and I believe the Court is familiar -- the Tribunal is familiar

21 with that name because that person is here at the moment.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, I think that answer can't go

23 unchallenged. There is certainly a Zoran Vukovic who is on trial here,

24 but the evidence in that case was that there were, I think, 11 people in

25 the Foca area with that name. So if there's any problem about

Page 572

1 identification, you may have to deal with it.

2 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't think that will be

3 necessary.

4 Q. How many people were in the group that arrested you, about?

5 A. Three or four, I think, including the driver from the military

6 police, the driver who drove the car which belonged to the military

7 police.

8 Q. You mentioned two people that were local to Foca that arrested

9 you. Were there any people in that group that were not local to Foca, as

10 far as you knew?

11 A. Yes, yes, the one who, I think, was the number 1 in the group.

12 And he came even before that on various occasions to my staircase. He was

13 a person whom we had met before, and those encounters were not

14 particularly pleasant.

15 Q. When you say he was number 1, did he appear to be the leader, or

16 was he the first one that you met when you were arrested?

17 A. Yes, yes, he was the most active among him and I think he was the

18 leader of the group, because I think it would have been much more

19 difficult for them to arrest me without him, or perhaps it wouldn't have

20 taken place at all.

21 Q. Do you know where he and the other person came from, where they

22 originated from?

23 A. They are -- I think, it was my impression, that they came from a

24 paramilitary unit with a white armband, and they are called White Eagles.

25 And I knew them well because I had come across them on different

Page 573

1 occasions, which means that they were not local. Let me add that they

2 must have come from Serbia.

3 Q. And briefly, can you say why they must have come from Serbia?

4 What led you to believe that?

5 A. Well, I think because he used to be with that larger group which

6 came to my staircase on two or three occasions before, and we had with

7 them some unpleasant encounters, because they entered our staircase firing

8 shots. And then when they talked to us, they were squaring accounts with

9 us, and in some provisional talks, they mentioned that they had come from

10 Serbia to help Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 Q. And these two men, did they have weapons?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The two men that you mentioned earlier that were local to Foca,

14 did they have weapons?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were they wearing uniforms?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember what type of uniforms they were wearing?

19 A. As far as I can remember, they were camouflage uniforms, military

20 ones.

21 Q. The colour of the camouflage?

22 A. The colour of the camouflage uniforms was green, different shades

23 of green, and white, something like that. But by the car was that driver

24 waiting for me, and his uniform was a different type of camouflage uniform

25 which is typical of the police, that is, something blue, grey, white,

Page 574

1 something like that.

2 Q. And that was the driver of the military police car who took you

3 away from the apartment?

4 A. Yes. Because on that vehicle there was an inscription; "Military

5 Police," it said.

6 Q. And you were taken away in that vehicle. Where were you taken to?

7 A. They took me, together with my brother, to the penitentiary, to

8 the KP Dom, directly.

9 Q. And your brother's name?

10 A. Whose name?

11 Q. Your brother's.

12 A. I don't know if he will testify here, but, well, yes, I can say

13 it.

14 Q. It's not important.

15 A. If you want me to, I will. But he's the only brother I have, and

16 he's alive and in Sarajevo.

17 Q. No, I don't need you to say his name.

18 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, it's about three minutes to one. It's

19 more or less the end of that topic.

20 JUDGE HUNT: My concern before in relation to Ms. Kuo's question

21 was that it was, understandably [Realtime transcript read in

22 error "sadly"], a very open-ended question which was obviously going to

23 produce a long answer. But by the time I've told you this, it will be

24 1.00 anyway. But don't worry about it. We don't want to waste minutes

25 here, there, and everywhere; they add up over a long trial.

Page 575

1 But we'll take the adjournment now and --

2 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, my colleague has something briefly to

3 say.

4 JUDGE HUNT: All right.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, I wish -- just in relation

6 to photos that have to be made in the KP Dom next time, there is a point

7 that arose. When Ms. Kuo said goodbye to the witness Avdic, he said where

8 he was exactly standing in the room. And I wonder, if it is -- if it is

9 enough that Prosecution knows where the witness was and can discuss this

10 with the Defence, or if we should call the witness back and let him say

11 where exactly he was and where the photographer should make the photo

12 from.

13 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest you discuss this with the Defence

14 counsel. They may agree without having to call Mr. Avdic back. But if

15 they don't, then obviously you will have to call him back so there can be

16 no dispute that he was in one part of Room 20, or whichever one he was in

17 at the time, or some other part of it. There were a lot of windows.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, but let's

19 make things easier. Why don't we take photographs from every window? And

20 we shall we happy to do that to help the Prosecution. You did not ask us

21 if we would do it at the time when we were discussing it, but the Defence

22 will undertake to hire a professional photographer in Foca and we shall be

23 very happy to take photographs from every window in Room 20. And we shall

24 give those photographs to the Prosecution.

25 JUDGE HUNT: That would be of great assistance to us, but I still

Page 576

1 think there may be a point about where Mr. Avdic was standing. So you can

2 either agree by speaking to him informally or we'll have to call him

3 back. One window may have a better view than the other, you see. So I

4 think there should be some agreement, or otherwise we'll have to recall

5 him to give evidence.

6 All right. Well, Mr. Smith, it's now one minute past one. We'll

7 adjourn until 2.30.

8 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.01 p.m.

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Page 579

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith.

3 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Lojo, before the break you mentioned that you were taken to KP

5 Dom with your brother. Was your brother in the military?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did he have a weapon at his apartment?

8 A. No.

9 Q. At the time that you were arrested, at that particular time, were

10 you told by the people that had taken you to KP Dom, why you were being

11 arrested at that time?

12 A. Yes. We were told that we were being taken only to give a short

13 statement.

14 Q. How long were you detained at the KP Dom?

15 A. About two and a half years.

16 Q. What date were you released from the KP Dom?

17 A. I was exchanged in Sarajevo on the 6th of October, 1994.

18 Q. And what happened to your family?

19 A. My family remained at home. (redacted)

20 (redacted). But at the time that I was arrested,

21 they stayed at home.

22 Q. When did they leave Foca?

23 A. They left Foca, I think, sometime in August or in early

24 September.

25 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, in the transcript, it relates to where

Page 580

1 the family is located. I just wondering whether that could be redacted

2 from the video and in the transcript, just for caution's sake.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, most certainly.

4 MR. SMITH:

5 Q. Why did your family leave Foca?

6 A. She was forced to leave because so-called ethnic cleansing was

7 under way in the town.

8 Q. Are you aware whether any Muslims, people of Bosnian Muslim

9 descent, stayed in Foca after the war, or after the conflict in the town

10 of Foca?

11 A. A very small number, a symbolic number. Perhaps two or three

12 families, and even here I may be exaggerating.

13 Q. Are you aware of when the bulk of the Bosnian Muslims left Foca

14 town?

15 A. I think it was before the end of July most of them had to leave

16 Foca. Certainly not after that.

17 Q. Did your wife require any papers authorising her to leave Foca or

18 permitting her to leave Foca?

19 A. Yes, she had to have these documents, and she got them from the

20 so-called Secretariat of the Interior in Foca, SUP, or the police.

21 Q. And when did she obtain those papers?

22 A. I don't know exactly, but we have these papers, I believe. It is

23 probably -- it was probably in the end of July, the second half of July.

24 Q. I'd now like to ask you to cast your mind back to before you were

25 arrested and remember the time when the war began. And what date would

Page 581

1 you put that?

2 A. I think the war officially started on the 8th of April, 1992.

3 Q. And you said that you --

4 A. That is when the military operations began.

5 Q. And you were arrested on the 19th of April. Can you tell the

6 Court, what were you doing for those 11 days?

7 A. I was in my home, in the apartment of my brother, at the apartment

8 of Jovo Milosevic, whom I mentioned. And I thought that he, as a

9 colleague and as a neighbour, could give me some protection, and for

10 awhile, for a short while, he did so.

11 MR. SMITH: I would ask that the usher produce Prosecution Exhibit

12 18, the photo number 7289. It's a photo of the centre of the Foca town.

13 And if that could be placed on the ELMO, please.

14 Q. Now, that's a photo of the centre of Foca town?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. With the pointer, can you show where your apartment building was,

17 or the general location where you believe it to be?

18 A. Yes. To the left from number 3, under my pointer. Across --

19 opposite this skyscraper. Between these two buildings is the Privredna

20 Banka Sarajevo. Shall I point again?

21 Q. No, that's fine.

22 MR. SMITH: I ask that the transcript be noted that the witness

23 pointed to the white building with the orange roof immediately to the left

24 and slightly below the figure 3 on the exhibit.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Smith, I'll accept your word for it. It

Page 582

1 was a bit difficult to say whether it was the one with that roof or the

2 one next to it.

3 MR. SMITH: Yes.

4 A. I have something to say, if you allow me. I would like to say

5 something.

6 Q. Could you please help us identify the particular building that you

7 lived in?

8 A. I thought I showed correctly this building without a roof. And to

9 the right from it is a building perpendicular to it which is next to a

10 road. So the building with the orange roof does not -- is not part of the

11 same structure. It is actually 50 metres away from the one I've shown.

12 Q. Would it be possible to mark the building with a small X with pen,

13 please.

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE HUNT: That will be on your copy of the exhibit, not on the

16 exhibit. That's the trouble.

17 MR. SMITH: That's correct, Your Honour. If we can tender this

18 exhibit at the end.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. SMITH: And the witness has marked the exhibit with a red X as

22 to the place where he lived before the war.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The number is P397.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Well, is that appropriate? Or should it go in as a

25 slash number after the exhibit itself?

Page 583

1 MR. SMITH: Your Honour --

2 JUDGE HUNT: But it would be more convenient, would it not, to

3 have it as a slash number following part of Exhibit 18.

4 MR. SMITH: That's fine, Your Honour. Perhaps then

5 P18-00407289/1.

6 Q. And you stated that you lived on the fourth floor of that

7 apartment building?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What were you doing at the time that you first were aware that war

10 had broken out in Foca town?

11 A. We were thinking about how to avoid danger. It was already too

12 late to organise departure from the town by car. We remained in our flat

13 together with the other tenants of the building; however, Serb tenants

14 were constantly away from their flats. They occupied four flats, whereas

15 five flats were occupied by people of Muslim ethnicity, that is, the

16 right-hand staircase on this picture. There are two entranceways, the

17 left and the right one.

18 Q. You said that the war broke out in Foca town on the 8th of April.

19 What did you first hear or see to know that that in fact happened?

20 A. At the moment when I realised the war had begun, I was with a

21 friend near the bridge downtown, on the left bank of the Cehotina River.

22 At that moment shooting had begun from both banks of the river. Some

23 military men signalled to us that we should run away. From that place,

24 there is about 200 metres to my home. I started making my escape between

25 buildings. I couldn't run because that was dangerous.

Page 584

1 Should I give more details?

2 Q. I will ask you for more details, but I will ask you some specific

3 questions about it.

4 You mentioned that you saw some people shooting down by the

5 river. Do you know who those people were, what military group they

6 belonged to, and what they were shooting at?

7 A. Those military who were shooting, and they were shooting from both

8 sides of the Cehotina, but the military men who were close to us and made

9 those hand signals to us that we should run away, they were located in the

10 army hall, and I'm certain that they were military men of the Serbian

11 army, and from what I could conclude at that time, those were paramilitary

12 units.

13 Q. Who did they appear to be shooting at?

14 A. They were shooting across the river or, rather, across the

15 bridge. There was a machine-gun nest there.

16 Q. That machine-gun nest, was that with the Serb soldiers or with the

17 soldiers that were shooting on the other side of the river?

18 A. Those were Serb soldiers.

19 Q. After you saw the shooting, how long did it take you to get back

20 to your apartment?

21 A. Two to three minutes. Not more.

22 Q. Was your family in your apartment?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What did you do -- sorry. What time of the day was that?

25 A. That was in the morning, between 9.00 and 10.00 a.m.

Page 585

1 Q. Did you stay in your apartment all day?

2 A. Yes. Soon after that, shelling of the town began. The fighting

3 began first with infantry weapons and then strong shelling of the town

4 began, and it lasted for several days.

5 Q. After going back to your apartment, did you leave your apartment

6 until the time that you were arrested on the 19th of April, 11 days later?

7 A. Yes. I went outside occasionally when the shooting would calm

8 down, would stop for awhile. Together with several other neighbours, we

9 went outdoors and we would go not more than 30 to 40 metres away from the

10 building.

11 Q. You mentioned that shelling began when you got back to your

12 apartment. Do you mean that shelling began on that first day?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you see parts of the town of Foca from your apartment

15 building, from your flat?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What parts of Foca town could you see in terms of the suburbs or

18 the general areas that have particular names within Foca town?

19 A. I could see the neighbourhood centre 1 and part of centre 2. I

20 don't know how else to call them. That is the municipal terminology. But

21 since my flat was on the fourth floor, I had a view of both these parts,

22 both these sections, from my place.

23 I could see the neighbourhood which lay directly in front of my

24 building. I'll show here. And I had one window on this side too, from

25 the children's room, from which I had a good view of the building of the

Page 586

1 SUP, Secretariat of the Interior, and that area there.

2 Q. If you could just go back to the picture and draw a circle over

3 the area that you could actually see from your apartment.

4 A. Shall I use the red marker?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. That is this area here, roughly perhaps because the picture is

7 small. But that is approximately the area. I went around that building.

8 I circumvented this building because there was an obstacle which

9 obstructed the view, a building of about eight or nine floors tall.

10 Q. Can you see on that photograph the area of Aladza?

11 A. I don't even have to look at the photograph. I couldn't see

12 Aladza from my home. I don't know whether what I could see was called

13 Aladza. Aladza is a bit further away. But that part is somewhere here.

14 This area should not be considered as central Aladza. Aladza is further

15 to the left.

16 Q. And can you see the area of Prijeka Carsija on that photograph?

17 A. Prijeka Carsija, yes, it is marked here in this circle. You see

18 here a feature called Sahat Kula, Sahat Tower. I wish the scale was a

19 bit smaller. And Prijeka Carsija is here, right next to the Sahat Tower,

20 to the left, that is one of the first buildings in town to be burnt down.

21 Right in my neighbourhood I saw buildings burning, and then this

22 entire street called Prijeka Carsija burnt too. I saw it set on fire. I

23 could also see it burning once when I was going out of the KP Dom --

24 Q. Could you put a --

25 A. -- into the building of the former Perucica enterprise where food

Page 587

1 supplies were kept. I was going to unload flour, and then on that

2 occasion I saw this whole area burning. But before that, when shelling

3 was under way, I saw it burning. Everything was on fire.

4 Q. Could you put a red line along the street that you saw burning on

5 that map? The general area that you believe that street to be.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, is there another colour? We're going to

7 get this very confused after a while.

8 MR. SMITH: This will be the last indication on the map, Your

9 Honour. If there is another colour, we'll --

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

11 MR. SMITH:

12 Q. Sorry. In a green colour now, could you put a line along where

13 you believe to be the street in the area of Prijeka Carsija. Take your

14 time, and just an approximate will do.

15 A. It's perhaps difficult to see green because the background is

16 green. But this would be it.

17 Q. Thank you. When did you see that area on fire?

18 A. It's perhaps rough, but it's there.

19 Q. When did you see that area on fire?

20 A. I think on the first or on the second day. I'm not 100 per cent

21 certain, but it's one of those two days. Perhaps on the first day --

22 Q. That would be the 8th of April?

23 A. -- even in the afternoon.

24 Q. And that would be the 8th of April?

25 A. Yes, the 8th or the 9th of April. I can't say for certain, but I

Page 588

1 know it was among the first buildings to burn.

2 Q. And about how many buildings did you see on fire in that area?

3 A. Those were small buildings, like small shops. And there were only

4 a couple of larger houses, perhaps, but they were only relatively large.

5 But this part which burned down, that could be no more than six to eight

6 houses.

7 Q. And in this period, from the 8th to the 19th of April -- excuse

8 me. Sorry, Mr. Lojo.

9 A. That is on one side, and I think damage was less on the other

10 side. The worst hit was this side I just mentioned. Going from the left

11 to the right, that is the right-hand side of the street.

12 Q. You mentioned that the shelling commenced on the first day and

13 went for a few days. When was the most intense activity, military

14 activity, in terms of shelling and shooting over that 11-day period?

15 A. I think the worst shelling was in the first three days. But

16 shelling and shooting lasted for about seven days.

17 Q. If I can just go back to the area of Prijeka Carsija. What style

18 of buildings were being burnt? Were they oriental-style buildings, Muslim

19 heritage buildings? Do you know who the occupiers of those buildings

20 were? Were they of Muslim nationality, ethnicity, or of Serb ethnicity?

21 A. Actually, as far as I remember, those were two large structures.

22 One was the house of an acquaintance of mine, Mile Males, and next to it

23 was small shops. It was perhaps not the most typical Turkish style but

24 small shops; one selling textiles, one shop selling lacquer and varnishes

25 and paint, and then came a shop selling hunting equipment, followed by

Page 589

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Page 590

1 plastic goods and foil --

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. -- and then there was another --

4 Q. Mr. Lojo, if I could just stop you there for a moment.

5 A. -- a watchmaker's shop.

6 Q. Do you know whether the buildings were owned by Bosnian Muslims or

7 Bosnian Serbs, or any other ethnicity? If you don't know, just say so.

8 A. On the other side I know that there were several shops owned by

9 Muslims, Bosniak Muslims. There was a kebab place, there was a tailors, a

10 watchmaker's or a watch repair shop; there was a shoemaker's and another

11 one. That's all I could remember.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lojo.

13 JUDGE HUNT: But are they Muslim-owned? That's what your question

14 was. I'm not sure from the answer whether that was so. And there is

15 the house that belonged to an acquaintance of his. He surely should be

16 able to tell whether he was a Muslim or not.

17 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Those last places that you just mentioned, those shops, you

19 described them, were they owned by Bosnian Muslims or Bosnian Serbs or

20 another nationality? Just a yes or no answer -- sorry, not a yes or no

21 answer. Can you tell the Court?

22 A. Yes, I can say that. The kebab place was owned by a Muslim

23 family. I don't remember their name. Then came a tailor's owned

24 by Aladzic or Alagic. A shoemaker's or a shoe repair shop was also owned

25 by Muslims. The watchmaker was Pejkusic. I don't remember exactly his

Page 591

1 name, but his nickname was Braco.

2 Q. And --

3 A. And I know -- I think there was a Karovic family owning the

4 tinsmiths, glass shop. I don't remember any more.

5 JUDGE HUNT: We still haven't got an answer to your question. And

6 even on my own very small acquaintance with the way that names differ

7 between the Serbs and the Muslims, I can't tell for some of them.

8 MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Were any of these places Bosnian Serbs premises?

10 A. I just said that the place that sold paints and varnishes, that

11 whole house belonged to Mile Males, and he is a Serb.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, the other places that you've mentioned, were any

13 of those places owned by Bosnian Serbs?

14 A. Of those names I mentioned, no. No.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness said "of the names I

19 mentioned," and I think the question was whether there were some shops

20 which were owned by Bosnian Serbs. And the witness said, "Of the names I

21 mentioned, they were all Muslim."

22 JUDGE HUNT: The answer was: "Of those names I mentioned, no."

23 In other words, he is -- they were not owned by Bosnian Serbs. I agree

24 with you, the situation is anything but clear, but there's nothing wrong

25 with his answer. He named the owners or the occupiers of some of the

Page 592

1 buildings. He has told us some of them were Serbs and some of them were

2 Muslim. And then he has said in answer to a question, "Now, the other

3 places that you've mentioned, were any of those places owned by Bosnian

4 Serbs?" His answer was: "Of those names I mentioned, no." So we only

5 know that there are no other Serbs amongst the names he mentioned. We

6 still have very little idea as to whether or not this was a mainly Muslim

7 or a mainly Serb area.

8 I wonder, Mr. Smith, whether you're going to get anywhere with

9 this.

10 MR. SMITH: Probably not, Your Honour. But I'll will ask the

11 question.

12 Q. Was that area that you saw on fire mainly a Muslim area or a Serb

13 area?

14 A. There are two things, and one has to make a distinction. One

15 thing is the ownership of the facility or who the property belonged to.

16 There were a couple of socially-owned companies there, such as, for

17 instance, Alhos, ready to wear. They had a shop there. The hunting gear,

18 that again was a socially-owned shop, a public shop; it wasn't private

19 property. And I can't remember if any Serb had his private shop there.

20 Perhaps they did. I just can't remember.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lojo. You mentioned that when you were arrested by

22 that group of men that took you to KP Dom, the leader of the group had

23 searched your apartment previously. How many times was your apartment

24 searched over that 11-day period?

25 A. In my presence, my flat was not searched at all, I have to say

Page 593

1 that. The flat was visited later when I was in the KP Dom. But at the

2 time when those strike groups broke into our building, our entrance, we

3 were in the flat of Witness 86, and that is where they found us. Of

4 course, first we were in the cellar, and then we were driven out of the

5 cellar. When we were attacked, we had to come out with our arms up,

6 because that strike group fired at the door from automatic weapons and

7 had started throwing grenades. So we were afraid that one of those

8 grenades might roll down the stairs into the cellar; we had to come out

9 and surrender. It was a very -- it was very difficult for us, and of

10 course we were all terribly frightened.

11 And the person I mentioned already who took me to the KP Dom, he

12 ordered me to walk in front of him so that he would escort me. And I

13 cried out and begged me not to take them there because I could sense

14 danger. And he was also trying to call out this Milosevic from -- I was

15 trying to call to this Milosevic from a different staircase to help me if

16 he could. But the one from --

17 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, that was the first reference we had to

18 this document that you've given the witness. I think that should be made

19 an exhibit. That's the one with the three names and numbers on it. It

20 will be Exhibit P397, and it will be under seal.

21 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. If you can just listen to the particular question and provide an

23 answer just to that question, I think we might be able to move through the

24 testimony a bit more efficiently.

25 A. Yes.

Page 594

1 Q. Were you approached by that group of soldiers that arrested you on

2 the 19th? Were you approached by that group or any other groups during

3 that period that you were in your apartment building, from the 8th to the

4 19th of April?

5 A. This strike group that first came to my flat, before I moved for

6 reasons of security to another staircase -- to another entrance, to Jovo

7 Milosevic's, that group was paramilitary and they had white armbands.

8 Q. When did you first move out of your apartment after the 8th of

9 April?

10 A. I cannot give you the date, but it was for about half an hour

11 only. It could have been sometime between the 15th and the 17th of

12 April. I really cannot be more accurate. I don't know the date. The

13 time, well, it could have been in the afternoon, around 1400 or 1500.

14 Q. And you stated earlier that you moved to Jovo Milosevic's

15 apartment in the apartment building for safety. Why do you think that he

16 could have provided you safety?

17 A. Because I thought and I knew that Jovo Milosevic was an SDS

18 official in the Party for -- the Serb Democratic Party. And on various

19 occasions he used the telephone, I suppose, to intercede on our behalf to

20 get better treatment for us.

21 Q. Did you receive a phone call during that period from a Simo

22 Stankovic?

23 A. Yes. He did not call me, I called him. And I called him because

24 when I was in the flat of Witness 86, it was before I moved close to Jovo

25 Milosevic, and from the flat of the Witness 86, we tried to call some

Page 595

1 people either in Sarajevo, around the Presidency, or in the hospital, and

2 there we tried to reach Simo Stankovic to ask him if we could help us, me

3 and my family, to get somehow to the hospital, and then to use the

4 UNPROFOR to be transported to Sarajevo. And that was my only conversation

5 with Simo.

6 Q. What date was that phone call made, or approximately how many days

7 before you were arrested did you make that phone call?

8 A. It was one of those first three days during the most intensive

9 shelling, because at that time we really panicked. There were groups

10 breaking into apartments, breaking into houses, and we simply had to do

11 something, because the telephone lines were still in working order. So we

12 had to look for a way out of the situation which seemed highly dangerous.

13 Do you want me to be more precise?

14 Q. Not on that particular point, thank you.

15 A. If necessary, if you want me to tell you what I talked about with

16 Mr. Simo.

17 Q. If you could explain what Mr. Stankovic said to you.

18 A. When I asked him to help to transfer my family and myself to the

19 hospital because we would feel safer there, and he said, "Well, your wife

20 and your children, your family, yes, perhaps they could, but you have to

21 stay in the flat for a little while because they will come to fetch you.

22 We will take you to the KP Dom and they will keep you as a reputable

23 citizen, as a prominent citizen for some time" which means that Mr. Simo

24 knew that I would be arrested.

25 Q. Did he say how long you would be taken to the KP Dom for?

Page 596

1 A. No, he did not say anything. But this prominent citizen stayed

2 for two and a half years there.

3 Q. Did he tell you about any other people that were being arrested

4 and taken to the KP Dom?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What was Mr. Simo Stankovic's job or function?

7 A. As far as I know, he was a lawyer and worked as such in the

8 hospital, in the medical centre in Foca.

9 Q. Was he politically active?

10 A. As far as I know, from what I learned, yes, he was very

11 politically active. According to what he told me, he seems to have

12 been -- to have been very well-committed politically at that particular

13 moment.

14 Q. Did he belong to a political party? And if he did, which one?

15 A. Yes, he belonged to the Party for Democratic -- no, the SDS, the

16 Serb Democratic Party. And I think he was on its main board.

17 Q. And what ethnicity was he?

18 A. He was a Serb.

19 Q. And over this 11-day period, what did you believe was happening in

20 Foca, specifically in relation to the Bosnian Serb group citizens and the

21 Bosnian Muslim group citizens.

22 A. I think that at that time, a very minutely planned action was

23 being carried out, and it meant first taking away weapons from the Muslim

24 population, then taking away all those who might be of military age or

25 able-bodied, and establishment of concentration camps. All the

Page 597

1 able-bodied men were taken to the KP Dom, because at that time there were

2 some auxiliary collection points, but they were all eventually taken to

3 the KP Dom, to the penitentiary. That was the strategy. Because then,

4 only the female part, members of the family remained, and the children,

5 and there was nobody to defend them. And those men who stayed behind,

6 they were of advanced age, and besides had no weapons and could offer no

7 resistance. So the conditions were thus provided for ethnic cleansing.

8 Q. Did you communicate to other Bosnian Muslims during this 11-day

9 period by telephone or in person to gauge what was happening in the town?

10 A. Yes. I had several conversations, and other people also called me

11 to ask what was going on. A family asked me, could I do something, could

12 I help. After the head of that family, and he was a dentist, had been

13 taken to so-called Livade, which was a makeshift shelter in which he was

14 detained; that is, later on he was brought to the penitentiary, to the KP

15 Dom.

16 I tried also to talk to some Serb families. I spoke to Zdravko

17 Begovic, who is a colleague of mine, and then I also learnt about him,

18 that he was active in the course of this war. But he could not help me,

19 nor did he even have any advice for me.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lojo. Did you see any of the Muslim males being

21 rounded up during this period, this 11-day period, other than obviously

22 yourself and your brother?

23 A. Yes, yes, I did. They were rounding them up from the

24 neighbourhood, first seizing their weapons and separating them, and then

25 at some distance, separating those men. It was going on very near this

Page 598

1 building here. I am here, and this is right across from me. In this

2 direction towards the Drina, this is where they collected weapons from

3 those who had surrendered them, and then they took them away. I did find

4 some of them in the KP Dom.

5 Q. Mr. Lojo, could you please put the pointer back on the photograph,

6 and if you can keep it still and indicate the place -- the building again

7 in which the Bosnian Muslims were being rounded up from.

8 A. This building is in the immediate vicinity, in the immediate

9 neighbourhood of my building. It is a wing here, because there is a

10 structure here -- a building which is very similar to ours. And I think

11 they are like this, at a right angle. I think it's here. And I saw the

12 other part here, where you see those orange roofs, I saw some members --

13 some people of Serb ethnicity being taken out, rather, called out and

14 summoned for mobilisation. Because some of them in the early days refused

15 to be mobilised, refused to respond, but later on they simply could not do

16 that. They had to accept to be mobilised, and I saw them leave.

17 Q. If you can indicate on the map with a red highlighter the

18 building, or the approximate location of the building. Sorry, it's a pink

19 fluorotexter, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: It's certainly not red.

21 MR. SMITH:

22 Q. With the pink fluorotexter, could you indicate the building from

23 where the Bosnian Muslims were rounded up?

24 A. I think it's this building here.

25 MR. SMITH: Thank you. The exhibit is marked with a pink

Page 599

1 fluorescent pen.

2 Q. Were you aware of any Bosnian Serb civilians or military being

3 rounded up in Foca town during this period?

4 A. I must admit I don't really understand your question. Could you

5 repeat it, please? Could you repeat your question and try to be more

6 precise?

7 Q. You stated that a large number of Bosnian Muslim men were being

8 rounded up from Foca town during this period, the 8th to the 19th of

9 April, and taken to KP Dom. Are you aware of any Bosnian Serb males being

10 taken to -- being rounded up and taken to any place during this period?

11 A. I know that during that period I noticed once, in front of the

12 so-called fish restaurant, I saw young Serb men being lined up, and among

13 them I saw there Mr. Ostojic. And as they stood up, lined up, correctly

14 as a platoon, I took that to mean mobilisation.

15 Q. Who is Mr. Ostojic? And can you state his full name?

16 A. Mr. Ostojic is a high-ranking SDS official. And he was born

17 somewhere around Foca, so that even before the war I had the opportunity

18 of meeting him once in the building of the parliament of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I don't remember which post he held at that time, but

20 he could have been in the government. I think that his first name is

21 Dalibor, or is it? It's something sounding like that. No, no, no,

22 sorry. Velibor. Velibor Ostojic, yes.

23 Q. You stated that you saw him appearing to mobilise a group of

24 Bosnian Serb men. What date was that? Approximately what date?

25 A. It was in those early days. It could have been between the 15th

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Page 601

1 and the 17th, the 15th and the 17th of April, 1992.

2 Q. You said --

3 A. A colleague in KP Dom told me that that group had been taken to

4 Kalinovik to be issued with weapons.

5 Q. Were you aware of any large-scale Bosnian Serb arrests during that

6 11-day period in Foca town?

7 A. No, no, I didn't hear anything about that.

8 Q. I'd like now to go back to the time when you were arrested and

9 taken to the KP Dom. You stated that you were taken there in a military

10 police vehicle by Serb soldiers and some local Bosnian Serb men. When you

11 arrived at the KP Dom, were you met by anyone in charge there?

12 A. I think that only one person took us to the KP Dom, a person

13 wearing a police uniform, and he brought us to the KP Dom. And when we

14 got off of that vehicle, then suddenly another vehicle stopped behind us

15 and a somewhat high-ranking officer got off that vehicle, of the Serb

16 army. I learned later on, or, rather, at least he said that he came from

17 Novi Sad. And even as he was getting off the vehicle, he shouted, "Did

18 they have any weapons? If they did, just kill them. If not, take them

19 into the room." That is how we met him.

20 Q. How long were you outside the KP Dom before you were brought in to

21 the premises? How long had you stopped until the time that you were taken

22 within the compound or within the building of the KP Dom?

23 A. Very short, it was a very short time - it could have been two or

24 three minutes - until a low-ranking clerk took our names down in the

25 reception room, and then took us to Room 15 -- no, excuse me, Room 13.

Page 602

1 Thirteen, at that time it served as the collection point.

2 Q. I'd like you to look at Exhibit P88, if that can be placed on the

3 ELMO.

4 This is a sketch, a three-dimensional sketch, of the KP Dom. Is

5 it familiar to you, the layout of this particular building?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. You mentioned that you were taken inside the KP Dom. Which

8 entrance were you taken through?

9 A. To Room 13.

10 Q. Prior to going to Room 13, from the outside, which entrance did

11 you take to get into KP Dom?

12 A. This door here. This door, to the left, I think, was the

13 reception booth or something. That is where I and my brother together

14 gave our names. Then we were taken through the passage here, but you

15 can't see it here because this is a three-dimensional representation, and

16 through the door which is on the other side, we were taken this way, up

17 these stairs to this entrance, and then to the left, to Room 13. And the

18 room below it is Room 11.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. SMITH: The witness indicated that he entered through the

21 entrance marked 19, and went through the building to the pathway on the

22 left-hand side of wing A of building number 8, and through the entrance at

23 the section joining -- of the building joining section A and section B,

24 and then indicated with the pointer he went left to Room 13.

25 Q. How long were your details taken -- how long did it take to take

Page 603

1 your details before you went to Room 13?

2 A. A very short while. Two or three minutes.

3 Q. Who was the person that took your details? Do you remember the

4 person's name or what he was wearing?

5 A. That person was wearing civilian clothes. I know the name too. I

6 need some time to think. I even think he was Croatian. Dobnik was his

7 last name. He was working in the KP Dom as a rehabilitation officer.

8 Q. Did he give you any reason as to why you were being detained, or

9 did anyone, for that matter, give you any reason why you were being

10 detained prior to going into Room 13?

11 A. No, no one did, and least of all he, because he was not the kind

12 of person with that kind of authority. And no one ever told me, for that

13 matter, why I was there, although we all know the answer.

14 Q. And what details were taken from you?

15 A. You mean there, at the reception desk?

16 Q. That's correct.

17 A. I think only my first and last name, my address perhaps. But

18 almost nothing else. He may have added the date of my arrival there.

19 Q. And when you arrived in Room 13, was there anyone else there?

20 A. There had already been a lot of people. It was a large room. I

21 don't know if you have a layout, a drawing, of that room. It has two

22 small rooms and two long ones. I was in a small room, and when I entered

23 one of the long rooms, I found a lot of people there, 60 or 80, whereas

24 about 20 people were in my room.

25 Q. How many days did you stay in this room before going to Room 15?

Page 604

1 A. I cannot say precisely, but perhaps two or three days. Not more.

2 I couldn't have spent more because an intensive filling of the KP Dom had

3 already begun.

4 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom and entered into Room 13, did you

5 believe that the people in that room were the only other people -- other

6 detainees in the KP Dom, or were you aware of other detainees in other

7 places when you first arrived on your first day?

8 A. I met in that room some people about whom I had learnt that they

9 had been brought from other places, Livade specifically, and I know that

10 some more people had also been in Livade. I later found out that there

11 were inmates in other buildings too; maybe those people were brought in

12 later. But I know that in July there were even women, children, and

13 elderly people detained in the so-called youth hall, which was once owned

14 or managed by the Physical Culture Society of Partizan. I met those

15 people during one of the aborted exchanges.

16 Q. If I can just stop you there. I'm referring now back to your

17 first day. When you first arrived, did you believe there were any other

18 detainees in the KP Dom other than the hundred that were in the room, in

19 Room 13?

20 A. I think there was a small number of detainees who had been there

21 before the war, but there were very few of them. Four or five, perhaps,

22 not more. Because the other detainees in the KP Dom had left, although I

23 don't know how.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, that's not an answer to your question.

25 But, really, does it help us very much what his beliefs were? I assume

Page 605

1 you're after the other detainees other than the lawfully convicted

2 people. But you haven't got that answer. What's the point of getting his

3 belief as to whether there were any others there?

4 MR. SMITH: Briefly, Your Honour, just to put the arrest in

5 context whether or not on the 18th or the 19th that was the first hundred

6 that arrived or whether in fact --

7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but his belief is not going to help us. That's

8 the point. If he knew something about it, by all means let's get on to

9 that.

10 MR. SMITH: Yes.

11 JUDGE HUNT: But belief, which is the question you keep asking

12 him, doesn't seem to me to be taking the matter any further.

13 MR. SMITH: I agree, Your Honour.

14 Q. Did you know of any other Muslim detainees in the KP Dom other

15 than in Room 13 on the day that you arrived?

16 A. No, I didn't know, and I couldn't have known.

17 Q. What age were these people that were detained in Room 13 on the

18 first day?

19 A. It is difficult to say precisely, but their age varied from 15 to

20 80, perhaps. I know there was a young man who looked more like a boy than

21 a young man, about 15 years old. But I remember there had been elderly

22 people in their 80s; there were people who were retarded, mentally

23 disabled; people who were wounded, injured.

24 Q. For the few days that you stayed in Room 13, were there enough

25 beds in that room for the group of you to sleep on?

Page 606

1 A. In the small room where I was, there were several beds, and we lay

2 on those beds two by two; without any bed linen, of course, just the bare

3 mattress on a metal bed. And I saw there were no beds at all in that

4 large room, and people lay on the floor.

5 Q. Of the hundred, about how many had to lie on the floor, sleep on

6 the floor, for those few days?

7 A. I really cannot say for sure. Perhaps there were a few

8 mattresses, perhaps even some blankets, but very few in any case. And

9 then I didn't even have the opportunity to take a close look, because in

10 the first months, any contact among prisoners was strictly forbidden.

11 Q. And you stated that people lay on those beds two by two. Is that

12 two people on one bed?

13 A. Yes. It was a small room with six, perhaps eight beds. There

14 were even people who laid on the floor.

15 Q. Did the number of Muslim detainees increase after the first day,

16 over time?

17 A. Yes, the number kept increasing, and very fast at that.

18 Q. When did the number of Muslim detainees reach its maximum in the

19 KP Dom?

20 A. I think the peak number of prisoners was in late June, early

21 July. According to our estimates and some checks that we did, we thought

22 the number was about 700. Do you need any more explanation?

23 Q. Just which year. June or July in which year?

24 A. 1992.

25 Q. And how long did the -- for how long did the detainees stay at

Page 607

1 that number, that 700 number? Did it stay at that level for a period of

2 time or did it start to reduce from July 1992?

3 A. The number began to drop as early as the end of May, because

4 people were still -- new people were still brought in at that time and the

5 number would increase occasionally. But in the second half of May, I

6 remember that retired people were released. They were the first to be

7 released. I think there were 15 or 20 of them.

8 Q. And that's in May of which year?

9 A. 1992.

10 Q. You stated that the amount of detainees -- the number reached 700

11 in July; is that right?

12 A. That was our own estimate and it was based on some checks that we

13 were able to do. We thought it was about 750 [as interpreted] to 700

14 people. And I think that during one check we conducted, we found out that

15 the number of detained people was 678, but we should view that number as

16 changing.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The transcript says 750 to 700. That

18 is in line 19. Whereas the witness had said 650 to 700.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, that was certainly my recollection, Mr. Bakrac.

20 But I can assure you the transcript is checked at night against the sound

21 recording, and for the typists, there are obvious errors that can be made

22 and numbers are the easiest in which to make errors. But it's been noted

23 and I'm sure that it will all be checked.

24 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

25 Q. In December 1992, about how many people do you know were at the KP

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1 Dom? How many detainees, Muslim detainees, were at the KP Dom at that

2 time?

3 A. It is difficult to say precisely because exchanges began as early

4 as the end of August, but I can try to make an estimate. In December the

5 number was considerably lower. It might have been around 400. I'm not

6 sure.

7 Q. And that reduction was largely due to exchanges; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in July 1993, do you have an estimate of the number of people

10 that were in the KP Dom at that time? When I say "people," I mean Muslim

11 detainees.

12 A. It's difficult to say, but it was in any case considerably lower.

13 I really can't say precisely. I know that the number dropped at that time

14 and that for rather a long while there were 200 people, then about 150

15 people, and then finally it dropped to 60. The largest exchanges took

16 place in the second half of August 1992, and in the two or three months

17 that followed, August and September.

18 Q. You mentioned that in Christmas 1992 that the number might have

19 been around 400. Can you estimate or do you know when the number dropped

20 to about 200?

21 A. I have a general reservation about stating the number of inmates.

22 It's like riding on a tram for an hour and being asked later how many

23 passengers were there in the tram and how many got off at each stop.

24 You can't say exactly unless you've kept a record.

25 Q. When you were released in October 1994, about how many Muslim

Page 610

1 detainees were in the KP Dom?

2 A. There were about 58, I think, exactly. In Sarajevo we were joined

3 by a group which had been brought to Rudno earlier and was later

4 exchanged together with us in Sarajevo. It was a small group, six to

5 eight people.

6 Q. Do you remember the time that the number dropped to that small

7 group prior to October 1994?

8 A. I think even sometime in August 1993, because in 1993, in the

9 middle of that year, exchanges were small; three to four persons, two

10 persons, even one person was exchanged at a time. So it's difficult to

11 say. But I think it's safe to say that in the middle of August 1993 we

12 were under a hundred.

13 Q. When you initially arrived at the KP Dom, who appeared to be in

14 charge? Was it a civilian authority or a military authority or both?

15 A. You mean when I just arrived at the KP Dom?

16 Q. On the 19th of April.

17 A. At that time people were just being brought in in numbers. The

18 intensive groups were the ones who brought people in. And after only

19 about a month, the guard service had been established and internal

20 relations began to be organised.

21 Q. And when you say "the intensive groups were the ones who brought

22 people in," can you describe that particular group, their uniform, what

23 military command they appeared to be associated to?

24 A. Those were very well-trained paramilitary units who looked to me

25 like special police. They were combined -- joined, to some extent, by

Page 611

1 local people. And they were the ones, those strike groups were the ones

2 who brought people in.

3 I know that for awhile after that, military operations continued

4 in villages, and from those villages people were brought into the KP Dom.

5 There were even cases when people were brought from as far away as

6 Montenegro. People were picked up on the beach and brought to the KP Dom.

7 Q. And what uniforms did these paramilitary units wear that brought

8 people into the KP Dom?

9 A. Some were in regular camouflage uniforms, or perhaps regular

10 military uniforms. I think they wore different uniforms. Another uniform

11 appeared later which was worn, I think, only by the police, and instead of

12 green combined with white, it was of a blue/grey colour.

13 Q. Do you know where these paramilitary units came from?

14 A. From what I know, I think they came exclusively from Serbia, and

15 those with whom I had dealings came only from Serbia.

16 Q. Did these paramilitary units work inside the KP Dom, or did their

17 activities largely relate to bringing them to KP Dom?

18 A. I think their job was only to bring people in. And perhaps for

19 practical reasons they spent a short time in the KP Dom too, but soon

20 afterwards they disappeared.

21 Q. In that first month, whilst these paramilitary units were present

22 and bringing people to the KP Dom, who was working inside the KP Dom

23 supervising the prisoners? Who was in charge inside the KP Dom during

24 that month?

25 A. That's a difficult question because we prisoners only had contact

Page 612

1 with the guards. And I should say that the regime was so strict inside

2 that we were not allowed to stand at the window, we were not allowed to

3 contact people from other rooms. All we could see was that there were

4 senior officers.

5 In the beginning there were senior officers who were there

6 temporarily, from what we could judge, and later permanent guards were

7 placed there. Of course, we didn't know anything at that time. We didn't

8 know how and who controls the internal organisation at the outset; that

9 means the first month or so.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lojo.

11 A. It's not a long time.

12 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I'm about to move on to another topic, so

13 now might be the time.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I hope that on Monday you'll come back to the

15 question you asked, I think, three pages ago which is who was in charge

16 inside? The witness has said, "The guards," but we don't know who the

17 guards were. Perhaps you could take that up again on Monday.

18 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Talking of corrections to the transcript, I would not

20 like Ms. Kuo to go away for the weekend thinking that I had said what I am

21 reported to have said at page 68 of the transcript. When I referred to

22 her question just before the 11.00 adjournment, I was reported as having

23 said, "It was, sadly, a very open-ended question." What I said was, "It

24 was, understandably, a very open-ended question."

25 We'll adjourn now. We'll resume again at 9.30 a.m. -- Oh, yes?

Page 613

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, just for the next week, I hope

2 that you have received our letter with the next witnesses. No?

3 JUDGE HUNT: No.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Nevertheless, of this week, Mr. Jussi

5 Kemppainen, we couldn't hear him, and we don't intend to have him as the

6 first witness next week, because we think he's very flexible and we can

7 always put him in whenever there is a need to have a flexible witness in.

8 Do you know what I mean? He will come either by the end of next week or

9 even in another week.

10 JUDGE HUNT: As long as the Defence counsel are forewarned as to

11 the order in which you are going to call the witnesses. The only ones we

12 want to know about, and perhaps this letter that you send in to the Trial

13 Chamber each week will have noted beside it those where we should have a

14 look at the transcript of the evidence which was given in the other

15 trial.

16 Is there anything else that you want to deal with at this stage?

17 Anything for you, Mr. Bakrac?

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask:

19 During the first break I received the list of witnesses for the next

20 week. I would like to know if there are any changes in that list, and if

21 so, what.

22 JUDGE HUNT: I can only say you're more fortunate than we are. We

23 don't have that list yet. But perhaps you can discuss that with counsel,

24 and we'll leave it between you, the Prosecution and the Defence, to sort

25 those things out amongst yourselves.

Page 614

1 If there's nothing else, we'll adjourn now till Monday, the 6th of

2 November, at 9.30.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of November,

5 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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