Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 838

1 Wednesday, 8 November 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case number IT-97-25-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Kuo.

10 MS. KUO: Good morning, Your Honour.

11 A matter has come to our attention just this morning, and a

12 representative of the Victims and Witnesses Unit is here to address the

13 Court.

14 Before he speaks, we would ask that we go into closed session.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'd like to know why. What's the basis of

16 that?

17 MS. KUO: It's a matter regarding the security and protective

18 measures regarding this witness.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's of some help to us, to know whether we

20 should do what you ask.

21 MS. KUO: Yes.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. We'll go into closed session for a

23 moment.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Closed or private session?

25 JUDGE HUNT: Private session.

Page 839

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Page 854

1 --- On resuming at 10.24 a.m.

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE HUNT: I remind counsel that with the voice distortion, you

4 must turn off your microphone whilst the witness is speaking otherwise the

5 voice distortion does not work.

6 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 WITNESS: FWS-215 [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]

10 Q. Witness, in your testimony yesterday, you discussed or you

11 described hearing something on the radio where the Minister of

12 Information, Ostojic, made comments about Muslims and Serbs. Did

13 Mr. Ostojic say anything about Serb intentions for Eastern Bosnia?

14 A. I can't really remember if he said anything about that.

15 Q. Now, just before we took our break yesterday you were describing

16 that you saw people in uniform arresting Muslim civilians. Did you

17 recognise any of those civilians?

18 A. I did. Munib Veiz was one of them; Zulfo Veiz was another among

19 others.

20 Q. What did you see happening to Munib Veiz?

21 A. I saw that they were beating him at that particular moment and

22 then had him handcuffed.

23 Q. Who was beating him?

24 A. Now, from that distance, I could not see that in order to be able

25 to tell you.

Page 855

1 Q. Were those people the ones in uniform or were they wearing

2 civilian clothes?

3 A. Uniforms.

4 Q. What did you see happen to Zulfo Veiz?

5 A. At that particular moment, I did not see Zulfo Veiz being

6 restrained.

7 Q. Did you see him being beaten?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know what happened to -- are the two Veizs related to each

10 other, Zulfo and Munib?

11 A. I believe so.

12 Q. Do you know where they were taken?

13 A. At first, to a place outside the town itself.

14 Q. Where was that?

15 A. That locality is called Livade, but it was the warehouse of a

16 shopping -- of a trading company.

17 Q. Where were they taken after they were taken to Livade?

18 A. After that they were taken to the penitentiary.

19 Q. Did you see them at the penitentiary, and when you say

20 "penitentiary", do you mean the KP Dom?

21 A. When I arrived to the KP Dom, I saw them there also.

22 Q. I would like to ask you a question about Munib Veiz's physical

23 build. Can you describe how large a man he was?

24 A. Well, he weighed about 120 kilograms at that moment.

25 Q. What was he by profession?

Page 856

1 A. He was a salesman.

2 Q. Was he well known in town?

3 A. I think so.

4 Q. What was he known for?

5 A. Well, that was a leatherwear shop where he worked, and people

6 often shopped there. He was a very nice man, very polite always, always

7 at your service.

8 Q. Do you remember what day that was when they were arrested?

9 A. I think it could have been on the 14th of April, 1992.

10 Q. On what day were you arrested?

11 A. On the 23rd of April 1992.

12 Q. Could you tell us where you were when you were arrested?

13 A. I was at home in my flat with my daughter and my son.

14 Q. Who came to arrest you?

15 A. Three uniformed persons came.

16 Q. Did you know those persons?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Could you tell us how they arrested you?

19 A. Well, they knocked on the door, I opened it and they asked my name

20 and I told them. After that, they entered the flat and said they had to

21 search it.

22 Q. Did they say what they were searching for?

23 A. They asked me if I had any weapons, and I said I didn't.

24 Q. At that time, did you know of other peoples' apartments being

25 searched for weapons?

Page 857

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Page 858

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were they Muslims or Serbs whose apartments were searched for

3 weapons?

4 A. Mostly Muslims. Yes, Muslims predominantly.

5 Q. The three soldiers who came, were they Muslims or Serbs?

6 A. Serbs.

7 Q. Could you tell us how they searched for weapons?

8 A. One of them went into the -- my children's room. I saw it because

9 I was in the hall at that moment. I saw that it was very quick and I saw

10 him take a bottle of drink. Another one went into the living-room and

11 asked one of my children to go into the room to be with him as if, "Can

12 your daughter be here?" So, right, I mean she was 15 then and he closed

13 the door into the room when they went in, after she'd gone in.

14 Q. What did you do when you saw the door being closed?

15 A. I was in the bathroom. I had been to the bathroom before all this

16 so I was wearing only some underwear. I really wasn't particularly happy

17 about my daughter being there so I summoned courage and I opened the door

18 slightly saying I needed some clothes to put on.

19 Q. Did the soldiers act correctly during the search?

20 A. One could put it that way. They were done very quickly. They did

21 not find what they were looking for; they did not find any weapons. But I

22 think that what they had in mind was, rather, taking me away, as they told

23 my children -- that is, me, to get ready because I had to make a

24 statement.

25 Q. Did they tell you where they were taking you to make a statement?

Page 859

1 A. I just asked, "What do I wear?" because it was cold outside. And

2 they said, "Whatever. You'll be back soon. You'll be back quickly."

3 Q. Do you remember what you were wearing that day?

4 A. I had some light shoes on and some old trousers and a jacket that

5 I found, the one that I found in the wardrobe.

6 Q. What was the reaction of your children when you were taken away?

7 A. They did not react in any way at all. All I could see was that

8 they were concerned.

9 Q. Where did the soldiers take you?

10 A. Where I lived in Ribarsko Naselje, there was the military police

11 headquarters there.

12 Q. What happened when they took you there?

13 A. I stayed there for a very short while, and then a man in civilian

14 clothes approached and said to sit in the car. With him there was another

15 uniformed person, in a camouflage uniform, and armed.

16 Q. Did they take a statement from you at that place?

17 A. No. We set off through the town, taking Mosa Pijade Street,

18 towards the Cehotina bridge, and then we turned left to the locality

19 called Donje Polje.

20 Q. While you were in the car, did anyone tell you why you were being

21 taken?

22 A. One of those, the one who drove the car, that was the civilian

23 one, he said, "Well, what are your sins?"

24 Q. What did you say?

25 A. I said, "I hope I have not sinned."

Page 860

1 Q. What was his reaction?

2 A. Well, he said to that other one, the armed one, "Watch him. He's

3 an extremist."

4 Q. Were you politically active?

5 A. Before the war, yes.

6 Q. In what way were you politically active?

7 A. Well, in the party that I belonged to, I held some responsible

8 posts, that is, in the former League of Communists and in the trade

9 unions' organisation.

10 Q. What years were those, if you can remember?

11 A. Between 1993 and 1999.

12 Q. I'm sorry. The translation came across as between 1993 and 1999.

13 Are those the correct years when you were involved in the Communist ...

14 A. No, much longer. But it was during that time when I held some

15 executive posts.

16 Q. What I wanted to clear up was you said before the war is when you

17 were involved, but what we have on the transcript is that it was 1993 to

18 1999, and I believe that's after the war. So I would like to clarify

19 that.

20 JUDGE HUNT: I think the clarification is he said he was

21 politically active before the war but he didn't hold office until 1993 to

22 1999. That's what he said. If you feel that that needs clarification,

23 you go ahead.

24 MS. KUO: I suspect that's an error. That's why I wanted to ask

25 him the follow-up question.

Page 861

1 Q. Did you get the years --

2 A. Yes, that was a slip. It was 1983 to 1989.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 JUDGE HUNT: That's not a clarification, that's a correction.

5 MS. KUO: I wanted to clarify if it was a correction or not, Your

6 Honour.

7 Q. Where did they take you that day?

8 A. Those persons brought me in front of the former

9 penitentiary/reformatory, that is, the KP Dom.

10 Q. Had you ever been to the KP Dom before?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In what capacity?

13 A. Well, I had some business with the staff of the KP Dom. It had to

14 do with official business.

15 Q. When you were taken there that day, where were you taken?

16 A. The reception room of the KP Dom, where those two who had brought

17 me turned me over to the prison guards. And then they took me to the

18 compound of the prison.

19 Q. Did anybody register you that day?

20 A. Perhaps they did. I was not told anything; I was simply taken

21 into Room 15.

22 Q. Did anybody take a statement from you that first day?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did they eventually take a statement from you at some point?

25 A. Yes.

Page 862

1 Q. When was that?

2 A. It was some days later. We were coming back from breakfast, I and

3 Witness FWS-66. And he used the nickname of Milorad Krnojelac, Mico, and

4 that we should make a statement, because we heard that other people were

5 making their statements. And we hoped that after we had given these

6 statements we would be allowed to go home.

7 Q. How did you know Milorad Krnojelac and, indeed, know his

8 nickname?

9 A. I knew him because he was a teacher in the Veselin Maslesa

10 elementary school. And we also cooperated in the party, because I held

11 some offices in the town and he was the secretary of the basic

12 organisation of the same party in the school that he worked in.

13 Q. When you say "party," do you mean the Communist Party?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you a member of any other political party?

16 A. Me? You mean me?

17 Q. Yes. My question was --

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know whether Milorad Krnojelac was a member of another

20 party, other than the Communist, when you knew him?

21 A. I wouldn't know.

22 Q. Why did you speak with him and ask him if you could have your

23 statement taken?

24 A. We heard that he was a person to whom one could apply to be sent

25 for interrogation with the investigator.

Page 863

1 Q. From whom did you learn this?

2 A. From those who were brought to the prison before us.

3 Q. Do you mean other detainees?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you learn anything from guards about Milorad Krnojelac's

6 position in the KP Dom?

7 A. Well, we had to apply to them first in order to establish

8 communication with Milorad.

9 Q. And when you say you had to apply to them, what exactly did you

10 need to do to establish an audience with Milorad Krnojelac?

11 A. We had to announce to the prison guard that we would like to visit

12 the warden.

13 Q. How many times did you ask the guards to speak to the warden?

14 A. During my detention it was on several occasions, but I must say

15 that I never had an opportunity of being received by the warden.

16 Q. Guards confirmed to you that Milorad Krnojelac was the warden?

17 A. Why it was they who told us that.

18 Q. When you saw Milorad Krnojelac in the yard, what exactly did you

19 say to him?

20 A. We only asked him if we could get to the administrative building

21 as quickly as possible and make those statements.

22 Q. What was his reaction when you told him that?

23 A. "I'll see." And a few days later, we were indeed received in the

24 administrative building and we did make our statements.

25 Q. Before we get to your statements, were -- you mentioned FWS-66

Page 864

1 also made that request at the same time you did. Were there other

2 detainees present who also were trying to make requests of Milorad

3 Krnojelac at the same time?

4 A. To be received to give statements, is that what you mean?

5 Q. Yes. My understanding is that a group of detainees was walking

6 from the quarters to the canteen or back and that's how you encountered

7 Milorad Krnojelac; right? And my question is: Were other detainees

8 making other requests at the same time?

9 A. I could not see anything like that because what we wanted was

10 since we knew Milorad as Mico, we wanted to get an opportunity for

11 ourselves to go and make our statements.

12 Q. Now, you said a few days later you actually were called to make a

13 statement. Where were you called to make the statement?

14 A. On the premises of the administrative building, on the second

15 floor.

16 Q. Who conducted the interrogation?

17 A. I was questioned by Zoran Vladicic and he used to be an inspector

18 in the former police in Foca, in the former Secretariat for the Interior

19 in Foca.

20 Q. Was he wearing a uniform when he interrogated you?

21 A. No, he was wearing civilian clothes.

22 Q. Were those the clothes that he would have worn as a police

23 inspector?

24 A. Well, roughly it was a leather-jacket and jeans.

25 Q. What kinds of questions did he ask you?

Page 865

1 A. I have to say that it did not take long the whole thing. He took

2 my -- he noted down my particulars, asked me where I was during the combat

3 operations, what did I do during that period of time and I think not much

4 more than that because it was a very, very short statement.

5 Q. Did he treat you correctly?

6 A. Yes. You could say that it was correct except that he wanted to

7 say something about the fire brigade's station, something like, "Well,

8 there were some problems there, but it's got nothing to do with you."

9 Q. Did you sign the statement?

10 A. He first, and that was very correct, indeed, he allowed me to read

11 the text of the statement. I signed it, and he said, "That's it, you can

12 go back."

13 Q. And where were you sent back to?

14 A. Yes. Oh, Room 15.

15 Q. Were you told at that point why you were at KP Dom?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you released from KP Dom after you gave your statement?

18 A. No. No.

19 Q. When were you released from KP Dom finally?

20 A. It was on the 5th of October, 1994.

21 Q. During your time at the KP Dom, did you ever see Milorad Krnojelac

22 again?

23 A. We could see through the windows of the rooms that we were kept

24 in.

25 Q. What could you see?

Page 866

1 A. Well, at that time, there were different types of activities such

2 as, for instance, going for meals: breakfast, lunch, dinner. That was in

3 the canteen in the administrative building, and they went to another

4 canteen which was above us so that practically we could see some personnel

5 in the administrative building on a daily basis.

6 Q. When you say you saw "them" going to the canteen, who are you

7 referring to?

8 A. The staff from the administrative building and naturally Milorad

9 was among them.

10 Q. How often would you see him walking to the canteen?

11 A. I've already said so. They had their dining-room there and they

12 needed to go there at least three times a day.

13 Q. When you saw Milorad Krnojelac, what was he wearing?

14 A. I think it was when we asked him, when we asked if we could make

15 our statements, at that time he was wearing an olive-green/grey uniform.

16 I don't remember if he had any weapon on him. I really cannot say

17 anything about that. On other occasions, we could see him in a camouflage

18 uniform.

19 Q. Did you see Milorad Krnojelac using an office in the KP Dom

20 premises?

21 A. We could. From the room in which we were, we could see that he

22 was in a room which earlier served for the reception and distribution of

23 parcels for the prisoners.

24 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I would like to have

25 this witness shown Exhibit 6/1.

Page 867

1 Q. Witness, can you identify which room you are referring to as the

2 office that Milorad Krnojelac used? First I should ask you on what floor

3 it was.

4 A. This is the ground floor of the administrative building. It is

5 rather an unusual view of that -- it's not easy to find my way around it,

6 but it's -- it should be somewhere here.

7 MS. KUO: Let the record reflect that the witness has pointed to a

8 room that is immediately to the right of the place that has previously

9 been identified as the entrance into the KP Dom. Thank you.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Witness, what --

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection. My learned friend

13 pointed, or at least for the transcript, she said that it was only a room

14 to the right of the entrance but not which one. It was the first one to

15 the right. Excuse me then, I did not hear it. If it is to the right or

16 it is to the left, it cannot be the first room to the right.

17 JUDGE HUNT: What she said was, "Let the record reflect that the

18 witness has pointed to a room that is immediately to the right of the

19 place that has previously been identified as the entrance into the KP

20 Dom," and that seems to me to be correct. The entrance into the KP Dom,

21 there's the main entrance into the administrative building, and you

22 proceed through into the interior part of the KP Dom. This one which is

23 on the English version called just "office" is the first room to the right

24 of that.

25 Is there some problem with that description?

Page 868

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I was looking at

2 the ground plan. I cannot both follow the transcript and the drawing, and

3 it sounded to me too vague but now it has been clarified. Thank you very

4 much.

5 MS. KUO: Thank you. We don't need this diagram anymore.

6 Q. Witness, were you actually able to see Mr. Krnojelac inside that

7 office?

8 A. Well, I have just said we often stood by the windows even though

9 the guards tried to prohibit it. But we could, from time to time, see

10 Milorad through the window.

11 Q. What did you see him doing inside the office?

12 A. I could not see that personally because I wasn't that close often

13 enough to be able to see.

14 Q. How did you learn that he was in that office?

15 A. Well, there was some prisoners who had had an opportunity to go to

16 the administrative building on some business, and they told us that he

17 worked there, that he -- that that is where he was, in point of fact. If

18 there would be some communication between some of the prisoners who had

19 applied for reception then, again, it would take place in that room.

20 Q. Did any of the detainees in your room tell you that from the room

21 they saw Mr. Krnojelac in the office you pointed out?

22 A. Yes, some could. Those who were in nearer rooms than ours was.

23 Q. Did those prisoners describe what he was doing, what they were

24 able to see him doing?

25 A. No, I don't think so. I don't think they could do that because at

Page 869

1 that time, all it came down to was sitting on his part and perhaps

2 talking. Whether it was business, whether it was a diary or agenda or

3 something, I cannot say because I was not there. I do not think it was a

4 conventional office.

5 Q. Do you know if he was in that office during the day or during the

6 night?

7 A. What I can talk about is what happened during the day [Realtime

8 transcript read in error "night"]. But at night, perhaps something that

9 went on in the evening hours, but not all that late.

10 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac on any other occasions? You've

11 described seeing him walking to and from the canteen.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Your Honour, excuse me,

13 but I am worried, as the transcript, on page [sic] 19, it says,

14 "... during the night" and it should say "during the day." I still

15 remember what you told me, that all this is checked, but I'm nevertheless

16 worried so I had to react.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Whereabouts on page 19 do you say there's some

18 error? We're up to page 28 already.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It is the 28th page, line 19.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, line 19.

21 JUDGE HUNT: And you say he said day and not night?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, he would see him during the day,

23 and sometimes in late afternoon but not late.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in the early hours of the

25 evening but not late.

Page 870

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Page 871

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Am I right?

2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Ms. Kuo, you'd better check it out with the

3 witness, would you?

4 THE COURT REPORTER: It was my mistake.

5 MS. KUO: Yes. My recollection is he also said "day."

6 Q. But I can ask you, because the transcript shows differently, when

7 did Mr. Krnojelac use that office? Was it during the daytime or during

8 the night-time?

9 A. The lights in that office would be on all day and night, and so

10 one could see him during the day due to the daylight and sometimes in the

11 evening hours. But I cannot affirm that it was in the late evening

12 hours.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness.

14 MS. KUO: I see that it is 11.00.

15 JUDGE HUNT: We'll have to keep the same timetable, otherwise

16 we'll throw it out for the rest of the day.

17 We'll adjourn now until 11.30.

18 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

21 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness, do you remember giving a statement to investigators from

23 the Office of the Prosecution in January of 1999 about what happened to

24 you in the KP Dom?

25 A. I do.

Page 872

1 Q. And do you remember being asked some questions about the office

2 that Krnojelac used in the KP Dom?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I want to put part of the statement to you and ask you for an

5 explanation. In that statement, you described that when you go into the

6 metal door from the courtyard -- I'm sorry. You described the office and

7 that there were bars on the window, and you said, "I could only recognise

8 Krnojelac if he was directly near his window and facing us, or when our

9 lights were off at night and Krnojelac had his lights on."

10 Did you make that statement?

11 A. Yes. I stand by it. But I repeat: It was in the early hours of

12 the evening.

13 Q. What I wanted to clarify was that you actually saw Krnojelac in

14 that office and did not just hear it from other detainees.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did any members of your family try to contact you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who?

19 A. My wife spared no effort trying to use some connections, my

20 friends who were Serbs, and she tried very hard to get through to me.

21 Q. Did she succeed in getting through to you?

22 A. She managed to see me twice for a very short period of time in

23 that part near the entrance into the KP Dom.

24 Q. How were those visits arranged?

25 A. In that period the prison administration allowed visits to us, the

Page 873

1 prisoners; however, that was only for two or three times during a short

2 period.

3 Q. When were visits to you and other detainees stopped or prohibited?

4 A. I think that this was at the very outset. By the second half of

5 May at the latest, 1992.

6 Q. I want to ask you some questions about the rooms that you were

7 in. You mentioned that you were taken to Room 15. How long were you in

8 that room?

9 A. Until the end of August, beginning of September, 1992.

10 Q. Where were you moved then?

11 A. Then I and the rest who happened to be there were transferred to

12 the other part of the building. That was Room 22.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness come closer to the microphone.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Would you mind moving your chair closer to the

15 microphone. It's difficult to hear you. Thank you.

16 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the

17 witness shown 6/1 again. Thank you.

18 Q. When you said that you and other detainees were moved from one

19 building, I think, to another, can you describe what building you were

20 moved from and then the building you were moved to?

21 A. That is building 1 where we stayed later. Then, we were

22 transferred to building 2.

23 MS. KUO: And for the record, the building 1 is indicated on

24 Exhibit 6/1 as building 1 as well as building 2 also labelled as such.

25 Thank you.

Page 874

1 Q. Now, regarding the movement of the detainees from the building to

2 the other, are you saying that all the detainees in building 1 were moved

3 to building 2?

4 A. Yes. In that period, all were transferred to building 2.

5 Q. Was there any reason given to you for that transfer?

6 A. No.

7 Q. I'd like to ask you -- and how long did you stay in that second

8 building in the room that you mentioned?

9 A. I could not remember the exact date but, again, from building 2,

10 we were transferred to building 1 yet again.

11 Q. But you don't remember when that was?

12 A. I cannot remember the exact date.

13 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions about your living conditions.

14 What kind of food were you allowed to have?

15 A. At first, the food was truly disastrous. In perhaps less than two

16 months' time, we lost lots of weight. I must say that in that period, I

17 lost 33 kilograms.

18 Q. And when did the food get better if ever?

19 A. Well, one could take the period from mid-1993 when we felt that

20 the treatment in terms of food was getting better.

21 Q. Were you allowed communication with the outside world?

22 A. Absolutely not.

23 Q. Were you able to receive any news from the outside world?

24 A. Officially, no.

25 Q. Unofficially, were you able to receive news, for instance, via

Page 875

1 radio?

2 A. No. Actually, until the 14th of August, 1992, we could follow

3 certain events because in that room of ours, Room 15, we actually had a

4 small transistor radio.

5 Q. What happened on August 14th, 1992 to that radio?

6 A. Then somebody, to use the jargon, squealed on us and the

7 authorities found out that we had a radio that we were listening to.

8 Q. What happened when they found out about the radio?

9 A. A large number of prison guards barged into our room, and I must

10 say that they searched it in a brutal way. They searched the premises,

11 our personal belongings, the beds on which we were lying, and us

12 personally, the prisoners.

13 Q. Did they take the radio away?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was there any further punishment for that?

16 A. Measures were taken by the administration to investigate who

17 listened to the radio and who listened to the news and whether this news

18 was carried to other rooms as well. Then these investigations by the

19 prison authorities continued.

20 Q. Do you know if anybody was punished specifically for that

21 incident?

22 A. Of course there was punishment. People were transferred to these

23 solitary confinement cells where prisoners were beaten and mistreated.

24 Q. Were you ever taken to solitary confinement?

25 A. Yes. I was in solitary confinement twice.

Page 876

1 Q. The first time you were taken to solitary confinement, can you

2 tell us what the reason was?

3 A. The first time was sometime in December 1992 together with person

4 FWS-111. We tried to get some hot water from the kitchen so that we could

5 get a proper wash so that we could wash ourselves a bit, and also do a bit

6 of our laundry.

7 Q. Did you have any other access to hot water other than asking from

8 the kitchen?

9 A. That was the way to get hot water. That is where food was

10 prepared, and that is where the hot water was, primarily for the food that

11 was being prepared in the kitchen.

12 Q. Had you ever got hot water that way before?

13 A. In certain periods, because there were no bathrooms, that water

14 was given so that the prisoners could get a wash.

15 Q. And what happened on this particular occasion when you and the

16 other detainee asked for hot water from the kitchen?

17 A. Since we asked the cook for some hot water, he said, "Yes, fine,

18 take it." However, then the prison guard came and said, "Why are you

19 taking hot water?" Then we said, "The cook let us do it." Then he asked

20 the cook, he said, "Did you give them permission?" The cook said, "No,"

21 and then he took us to a prison cell.

22 Q. The prison cell you were taken to, was that one of the solitary

23 confinement cells?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you and FWS-111 share a cell?

Page 877

1 A. Yes, we were there together.

2 Q. How long were you in that cell together?

3 A. During that cold night - we were told that the temperature was 20

4 or 25 degrees below zero - we were there from 5.00 or 5.30 in the evening

5 until about 7.30 in the morning.

6 Q. What was it like for you in that solitary confinement cell?

7 A. Exceptionally cold. We got a very small blanket that we could use

8 as a cover; however, since this is a room made of concrete, we could not

9 get any sleep. We were massaging ourselves, and we really had trouble

10 making it through to the morning.

11 Q. Did you become sick as a result of that evening, that night spent

12 in the cell?

13 A. Yes, I did suffer the effects of that. My health was rather poor

14 even before I came to that room, so for seven or eight days I was very

15 sick. I lay sick, and thanks to two doctors who had some pills on them, I

16 managed to recuperate.

17 Q. Could you tell us now about the second time that you were placed

18 in the solitary confinement cell?

19 A. The second time I was actually already engaged for work duty, and

20 I availed myself of an opportunity when other prisoners were going to

21 town, to the city hospital, in order to get medicine from them. I gave

22 them a note; however, when these prisoners leave the premises, they have

23 to be searched, and the guard searching them found this note. They said

24 that it was my note, and then Savo Todovic called me in for questioning.

25 Q. As a result of that incident, how many days did you spend in the

Page 878

1 solitary confinement cell?

2 A. He said to me immediately that I would be in solitary confinement

3 for ten days but that I had to work during those ten days as well;

4 however, I stayed for five days only.

5 Q. If I understand you correctly, you were placed in the solitary

6 confinement cells at night, and in the daytime you worked; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When did this incident occur?

9 A. I remember that date well. That is the 31st of August, 1993; that

10 is the exact date.

11 Q. Why are you so certain about that date?

12 A. That is my wife's birthday so I could remember it easily.

13 Q. Witness, you mentioned that you had been placed on work duty by

14 that time. When did you begin to be placed on work duty?

15 A. Well, some prisoners started quite early. Unfortunately, I was

16 not given that possibility until mid-1993, sometime around there.

17 Q. You said unfortunately you were not given the opportunity. Why

18 did you want to work?

19 A. Because those who worked had the possibility of getting somewhat

20 better food.

21 Q. Did you try to get work duty before you were actually assigned?

22 A. Yes. We were in a special position, about 15 of us; we were

23 separated from the rest. I don't know what intentions they had, but the

24 fact remained that we were isolated and we were not given the possibility

25 of going on work duty.

Page 879

1 Q. When you say 15 of you, what did the 15 of you have in common that

2 was different from the other detainees, as far as you can tell?

3 A. I could not really define that. I could only say that among this

4 group were intellectuals, doctors, engineers, teachers, other such

5 professions. Perhaps what I could notice in that group was that one could

6 say that these were eminent citizens.

7 Q. The other detainees who were placed on work duty, where did they

8 work?

9 A. Some worked within the prison compound, and others worked in town;

10 they were involved in agriculture. And some were in the mine, the brown

11 coal mine, which was about 10 to 12 kilometres out of town.

12 Q. Which work duty were you assigned to eventually?

13 A. I was in the furniture factory, within the prison compound, that

14 is.

15 Q. While you were detained at the KP Dom, did the Red Cross come to

16 visit?

17 A. At the very outset, sometime in May 1992, there was an attempt

18 made by the Red Cross and BBC television to pay a visit to the prison.

19 Q. Did you see what happened when the Red Cross attempted to make

20 this visit?

21 A. Of course we were all curious and we tried to see through the

22 windows what was going on. The BBC television people tried to hand out

23 cigarettes. It was a very embarrassing situation, as far as these

24 cigarettes were concerned. You could see hands, arms, stretched out

25 through windows, people trying to get these cigarettes. But then the Red

Page 880

1 Cross tried to register the prisoners too.

2 Q. What happened when they tried to register the prisoners?

3 A. Slavko Koroman, a retired policeman from the KP Dom, acting on

4 someone's orders, with the assistance of Mitar Rasevic, commander of the

5 shift, stopped the Red Cross and BBC people from working.

6 Q. So did the Red Cross leave without registering people that day?

7 A. We found out later that all of the materials involved in the

8 registration of prisoners were taken away. Somebody said that it happened

9 outside the administration building, but whether the prison administration

10 had something to do with it, I really don't know.

11 Q. Just to clarify when you said "taken away", these papers were

12 taken away from whom?

13 A. From the representatives of the International Red Cross.

14 Q. When was the next time the International Red Cross came to KP Dom?

15 A. Almost a year went by, the 23rd of April, 1992.

16 Q. Did you mean that? Was that an error? You said it was the 23rd

17 of April, 1992.

18 A. I said 1992, but I meant 1993. 1993. 1993 is the year.

19 Q. In the statement that you gave to the investigators of the

20 Prosecutor's office, do you remember that you gave the date 23rd of June,

21 1993?

22 A. Yes. I do apologise indeed. It was the 23rd of June, 1993.

23 Q. What happened on at that date?

24 A. I apologise for these oversights, but that is the exact date. We

25 remember it because on that day, we, from Room 15, were hidden in the city

Page 881

1 bakery.

2 Q. How were you hidden there?

3 A. One of the prison guards came, unlocked the room and said that we

4 should get ready because we were going somewhere very quickly.

5 Q. And where is this bakery located?

6 A. Right by the KP Dom, about 80 or 100 metres away only.

7 Q. Were you told why you were taken there?

8 A. No, we were not. We were actually told that we would go there to

9 do something because prisoners had gone there before.

10 Q. When you arrived at the bakery, what were you told to do?

11 A. Well, this man who works there says, "Why did they bring so many

12 of you? I don't need so many people today."

13 Q. Were any of you brought back at that point?

14 A. No. We were outside for a long time. During that period, we

15 managed to see vehicles of the International Red Cross that were moving

16 towards the administration of the KP Dom. Then orders were issued to have

17 us locked up in the basement of the bakery.

18 Q. How long were you locked up in that basement?

19 A. Until about 8.30 or 9.00 in the evening.

20 Q. What happened then?

21 A. Then they came with the same vehicle that had brought us there and

22 they took us back to the KP Dom.

23 Q. Did you learn from the other detainees who had stayed in the KP

24 Dom during that time what happened while you were hidden in the basement

25 of the bakery?

Page 882

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Page 883

1 A. Because the Red Cross had been authorised, I suppose, by the

2 administration, to get in, then they registered the remaining prisoners.

3 Q. Were you registered by the Red Cross that day?

4 A. No.

5 Q. When -- were you ever registered with the Red Cross?

6 A. It happened after five, that is, altogether six times, when our

7 group was taken away and hidden, and it took some half a year.

8 Q. And the five or six -- you said that five additional times, so six

9 total times that you were hidden; is that what you mean?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. Was it the same group of 15 people who were hidden each of those

12 six times?

13 A. The same by and large except that some changes had taken place in

14 the meantime, that is, some men from the group had been taken for alleged

15 exchange.

16 Q. When were you finally registered with the Red Cross?

17 A. It should be the 14th of September, 1994.

18 Q. Now, do you know about the -- just to finish -- do you remember

19 the next date that you were hidden by [sic] the Red Cross? You mentioned

20 the 23rd of June 1993, when was the next time, if you remember?

21 A. From what I remember, the Red Cross next came in August, sometime

22 in the early days of August.

23 Q. And do you remember the time after that?

24 A. It is difficult to retain dates in one's memory, but it was every

25 month, month and a half or so that the Red Cross would come and try to

Page 884

1 fulfil their mission. Whenever they came, we would be hidden. So it

2 happened not only at the bakery, but also in the interior part of the KP

3 Dom, and also at the business premises of the KP Dom some two or three

4 kilometres away from the compound itself.

5 Q. Witness, during the time that you were detained at KP Dom, were

6 there also Serb prisoners detained there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you first arrived at KP Dom in April 1993, do you know

9 approximately how many Serb prisoners were there?

10 A. Did you say 1993?

11 Q. Yes, my mistake. I meant 1992, when you arrived. Do you know how

12 many Serb prisoners there were?

13 A. Very few, I'd say. There were some who had stayed over, I mean

14 earlier inmates, and very few who were brought by Serb authorities, I

15 suppose, to serve a term or something.

16 Q. Did the numbers of those Serb prisoners increase during your time

17 there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was there a time period when the numbers increased greatly or was

20 it a steady stream?

21 A. Well, they were constantly coming and going, I suppose, depending

22 on the situation on the front.

23 Q. When you say depending on the situation on the front, what do you

24 mean? What effect did that have on the numbers of the Serb prisoners?

25 A. According to certain -- to some information, some of them, I

Page 885

1 guess, tried to dodge the military obligation. Some perhaps turned up at

2 the front line drunk so they would be brought down. Some committed

3 crimes. Some committed murders so that would be how they got to KP Dom.

4 Q. Could you tell whether the convicted Serb prisoners were kept

5 separate from the Serb prisoners who had something to do with the

6 military, as you describe; either tried to evade serving in the armed

7 forces or who had shown up drunk, let's say, when they were supposed to be

8 on duty? Were those groups of prisoners kept separate, as far as you

9 could tell, or were all the Serb prisoners kept together?

10 A. They were all kept together, except that some of them were

11 uniformed and some wore civilian clothes.

12 Q. Did you and other Muslim detainees have contact with these Serb

13 prisoners?

14 A. It was not easy to communicate, but those who were under work

15 obligation, they could communicate.

16 Q. Through these communications, what did you learn about the living

17 conditions of the Serb prisoners compared to the Muslim detainees?

18 A. From the point of view of the media, they were in a better

19 position. They could be informed because they had television, they had

20 radio. They were getting slightly better food than we were getting, and,

21 after all, their relatives could visit them.

22 Q. I'd like to turn now to the beatings at KP Dom. Were there

23 beatings at KP Dom?

24 A. From what I remember, between the 1st and the 25th of June, 1992,

25 quite a great deal of these facts came to light.

Page 886

1 Q. I'd like to ask you first whether you could see a pattern in the

2 way the beatings were conducted, and then I will ask you some specific

3 questions about specific incidents.

4 But first can you describe in general what the pattern was, how

5 people were beaten?

6 A. The criteria, conditions under which people were taken away for

7 interviews and beatings, it's really difficult to say. We never managed

8 to find that out.

9 Q. You mentioned that people were taken away -- well, let me start

10 asking you this way: Were detainees beaten immediately when they were

11 brought into the KP Dom from the outside?

12 A. There were such instances, yes.

13 Q. Could you tell us if you were able to see either the beatings

14 themselves or the effects of the beatings?

15 A. We did not see, we could not see, because it happened at the

16 entrance into the compound, but one could hear. After those men would be

17 brought into the rooms, we could, of course, see that they had been beaten

18 on various parts of their bodies.

19 Q. When you said you could hear, what could you hear?

20 A. We heard the cries of pain of those poor things, because they

21 wailed and screamed, and one could hear the blows resound of some batons

22 or something; especially, of course, it was particularly audible at

23 night-time.

24 Q. So there were detainees who were brought in at night-time as well

25 as daytime?

Page 887

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Where did you hear these cries and blows coming from? Could you

3 locate where they were?

4 A. I've already said that. It is in this entrance into the

5 administrative building; that is, as soon as they would be brought there,

6 they would be searched, I suppose, and harassment by perhaps people on

7 duty or perhaps others who happened to be there.

8 Q. Before these individuals were brought to your room or to other

9 prisoners' rooms, could you see them walking through the yard?

10 JUDGE HUNT: You have to say yes rather than just nod, sir. It

11 won't be recorded in the transcript otherwise. You just nodded in answer

12 to the question.

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. KUO:

15 Q. What did you see happen to these individuals as they came through

16 the yard?

17 A. We really saw one. He was a male nurse, and he was severely

18 beaten on his legs and soles of his feet and his arms, around here, so he

19 had difficulty moving. He even stumbled once; I mean, his legs simply

20 wouldn't support him.

21 Q. Did you see anybody actually inflict blows in the yard?

22 A. No.

23 Q. The people whose injuries you saw, did they explain to you how

24 they received those injuries, who did it to them?

25 A. At times it could not be said directly to me, for instance. But

Page 888

1 later on we moved between rooms and we communicated with those people, and

2 they usually gave the names of those men who had beaten them.

3 Q. The men who had beaten these detainees on their way in, were they

4 guards or soldiers, or what category of people were they?

5 A. Guards and representatives of the military police.

6 Q. Where were detainees brought in from? What areas?

7 A. From the town itself and its environs.

8 Q. Were there detainees brought in from particular areas who were

9 singled out for beating, as far as you could tell?

10 A. I don't know what criteria were applied to various citizens and

11 villagers, but the fact remains that they were brought from the town and

12 out of the town, and not only from the environs or the town itself but

13 from other towns as well; not only from Bosnia-Herzegovina but even from

14 other parts of Yugoslavia.

15 Q. Now, you've mentioned one particular incident where a male nurse

16 was brought in badly beaten, into your room. Can you give us some other

17 specific incidents of who was beaten and how, when they first arrived at

18 the KP Dom?

19 A. I can mention some people, some nurses and other individuals.

20 Also, if you need the names, I can give them.

21 Q. Could you please do so? Just tell us the specific incidents, who

22 was beaten, and if you know by whom, and also when.

23 A. Well, let me tell you straight away that I do not know who beat

24 them because that was right at the beginning, that is, early June.

25 Enes Uzunovic is one of them, a prominent bloke. He was the

Page 889

1 president of the youth organisation and a male nurse. He was very badly

2 beaten, harassed; transferred from one to another.

3 Nisic Nurko, he was a lawyer. He worked for the municipal

4 assembly.

5 Alija Ugljesa, who was brought from Ilovaca. Ilovaca is in the

6 municipality of Gorazde.

7 Safet Minovic, from the municipality of Cajnice, who happened to

8 be in the Foca hospital.

9 Some policemen who were professional policemen in Foca, and many,

10 many others.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, are you able to assist us in the same way

12 that your colleague did by giving us any references to the schedules to

13 the indictment?

14 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, I'm in the process of getting that

15 list.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

17 MS. KUO: For the record, Nurko Nisic is 19 on Schedule C, that's

18 Exhibit P55. The person identified as Uzunovic is person 26 on the same

19 Schedule C. And those are the only ones I can identify at the moment,

20 Your Honour. We will ask this witness to look at Schedule C later and

21 confirm all the names.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Not just Schedule C. There is an earlier one or a

23 later one which has a series of incidents, particular incidents, not ones

24 that ended up in Schedule C. If they are referred to by any of these

25 witnesses, it does help if it's recorded in the transcript so that later

Page 890

1 it can be assembled far more easily.

2 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. I know the schedule you are referring

3 to but I don't have it at hand. I will be able to provide it later.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

5 MS. KUO:

6 Q. Now I'd like to ask you about another group or category of

7 beatings. Were detainees taken out of rooms and beaten?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was this during the daytime or the night-time?

10 A. Both by day and by night.

11 Q. Could you tell if there was a difference between the beatings that

12 occurred during the daytime and the ones that occurred in the night-time?

13 A. I don't see why the investigation would last in the -- by day and

14 by night and the beatings and battery also happened by day and by night.

15 Q. When you say the investigation would last in the day and by night,

16 what investigation do you mean?

17 A. Well, I cannot say really what they interviewed people about, what

18 questions were about or why they were beaten. I cannot say.

19 Q. Did guards come and take prisoners from the individual rooms?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did they say why they were being taken?

22 A. No. They would only open the door to the room and call out a

23 particular individual to come with them to the administrative building.

24 Q. What led you to believe that these detainees being taken out were

25 being interviewed?

Page 891

1 A. After that, they would come back, usually beaten, not always to

2 the same room where they had been taken out. For some reason, they were

3 sometimes transferred to some other rooms so that we would see them only a

4 couple of days later and then they would tell you their impressions.

5 Q. The detainees who were brought back in this way, did they tell you

6 what happened to them?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What did they tell you?

9 A. Well, they mostly insisted in coercing them to affirming that they

10 were involved in some activities, that they were making some attempts,

11 that they were trying to do something for the other side and things to

12 that effect.

13 Q. Did those detainees tell you who, and by "who", I don't mean

14 necessarily individuals, but the category of people, again, soldiers,

15 guards, or other people? Who was doing this kind of questioning and the

16 beating?

17 A. Well, in some parts, guards alone participated. At times, members

18 of the military police would come to do that, and there were also some

19 other men who were accommodated in -- allegedly, in the canteen of the KP

20 Dom and who came there to conduct investigation.

21 Q. When you say "accommodated in the canteen", what do you mean?

22 A. Well, those must have been representatives of some units who were

23 engaged on such occasions.

24 Q. What kind of units do you mean, military units or --

25 A. Reserve, I suppose reserve force of some units.

Page 892

1 Q. Again, reserve forces of the military, is that what you mean?

2 A. I cannot really say with any certainty whether the army of some

3 special units. It's really difficult.

4 Q. And again, when you say they were accommodated at the canteen, did

5 you mean they actually lived there or they used it for work purposes?

6 A. They were staying there.

7 Q. Actually living there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you tell what relationship those people had with the prison

10 guards? In other words, did they cooperate with each other, did they

11 function separately or did they function together?

12 A. Well, together, I suppose, because it was in cooperation with the

13 military command and, I suppose, the administration of the penitentiary of

14 the KP Dom.

15 Q. Approximately how many people were accommodated in the canteen in

16 this way?

17 A. I couldn't really say.

18 Q. And did they have beds there in the same place where detainees

19 would eat?

20 A. Yes. Because that is a building which, before the war, was a kind

21 of a restaurant with an additional part on the upper floor where they had

22 some rooms to let.

23 Q. You are referring to the rooms upstairs, that's where these

24 reserve unit members were staying; is that right?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 893

1 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you some specific questions about specific

2 incidents when detainees were taken out of their rooms and beaten. Do you

3 recall specific individuals who were victimised in this way?

4 A. Well, we remember people who were taken away, who were brought

5 back, and those who were not brought back. Because they were not brought

6 back and they are still gone, we understand that they are still missing,

7 that is either they were liquidated right there on the spot or would be

8 taken somewhere else and liquidated there.

9 Q. I'd like to concentrate on the incidents when individuals were

10 taken out and returned and you were able to see the injuries on them.

11 Let's focus on those. Can you tell us about some of those incidents?

12 A. There were a number of those people and I can't recall all of

13 those names, but I can remember some of them and the types of injuries and

14 which parts of the body. Amir Berberkic was a physician in the general

15 hospital. He was brought from his place of work in the hospital. He was

16 beaten on the legs and it took him some time to recover with our help and

17 some assistance of the medical personnel in the administration of the KP

18 Dom. Alija Ugljesa had been severely beaten, and the guard Novica Burilo

19 who weight some 100 kilograms jumped on him and broke several of his

20 ribs.

21 Q. Did Dr. Berberkic tell you who had injured him, who had beat him?

22 A. No, he never wanted to do that. I don't know why. Many people

23 tried to keep it to themselves, perhaps afraid to divulge those names.

24 Perhaps they also were told not to tell anyone.

25 Q. Did either Dr. Berberkic or Alija Ugljesa tell you what happened

Page 894

1 during the beating, whether the people who were doing the beating said

2 anything about why they were beating them?

3 A. No. No. It did not last long, the blows with some batons or

4 kicks, that is with military boots. So that during that short period of

5 time people screamed, yelled. I think it's not that I think, it's

6 according to them, there were quite a number of them who would seize the

7 opportunity to attack and beat them.

8 Q. When you say "seize the opportunity", who were you talking about?

9 Who was seizing the opportunity to beat?

10 A. In that part where they took those people, that is this front part

11 between the administration and the inside of the penitentiary.

12 Q. The question is who? Who took the opportunity to beat the

13 detainees?

14 A. Guards. Guards. And those who happened to be there. Those who

15 had invited them.

16 Q. In addition to the two individuals whose names you've mentioned,

17 can you remember other individuals who were beaten in this way and brought

18 back?

19 A. I've already said so, Nurko Nisic, Halim Konjo, Enes Uzunovic.

20 It's not easy to remember them just now, but there were quite a number of

21 them.

22 Q. Was there a detainee in your room whose daughter was actually

23 detained with him for a short period of time?

24 A. There was a man whose name was Muharem Causevic with his

25 three-year-old daughter. Around three, three and a half.

Page 895

1 Q. How long was she detained there with him?

2 A. I couldn't really say, but I should say it was a lot more than a

3 month, because he was one of those who was also taken out repeatedly and

4 beaten.

5 Q. Was he taken out and beaten during the time that his daughter was

6 there with him?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When he was returned from the beatings, could you see injuries on

9 him?

10 A. That Room 15 had two parts; a smaller part in which he was with

11 five or six other prisoners and that other part where there were some 25

12 to 30 men. So I could not see him at the moment when he would come back,

13 but a couple of days later, yes, I could.

14 Q. What did you observe about him during the time that you did see

15 him?

16 A. Slaps and blows on the body, on various parts of the body. So a

17 couple of days later, one could still see bruises, even though not that

18 pronounced.

19 Q. How many times was he taken out while his daughter was there with

20 him?

21 A. I cannot say exactly, but two or three times, not less than that.

22 Q. Do you know what would happen to his daughter when he was taken

23 out and beaten?

24 A. She was with those men in the room.

25 Q. What happened to the daughter? Did she stay?

Page 896

1 A. One day a prisoner came and said that she would be taken to her

2 mother or relations, something to that effect.

3 MS. KUO: Your Honour, the person who has been described as

4 Muharem Causevic is listed in Schedule A, incident 2.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. If you come across any others, perhaps

6 you can let us know at some stage.

7 MS. KUO: We are trying to compile them as simultaneously as

8 possible. Sometimes things come to light that we didn't have the details

9 on earlier.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

11 MS. KUO:

12 Q. When detainees were taken out and beaten, could those of you who

13 stayed in the room hear the beatings? You need to say yes or no.

14 A. Since the place where this was done and the place that we were at

15 were about 30 to 40 metres away from one another, yes, you could hear

16 that.

17 Q. And the place where this was done, where the beatings were done,

18 where was that?

19 A. Usually in this part that I'm talking about all the time, that is

20 to say, this part between the administrative building and the entrance

21 into the compound of the penitentiary.

22 Q. Is that the same area as the entranceway, or would it have been an

23 office in a different part of the building? I'm talking now about the

24 beatings where detainees were taken out of the rooms and then brought

25 back.

Page 897

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Page 898

1 A. Of course they did not return everyone to the same rooms. But

2 this happened in the same rooms most of the time.

3 MS. KUO: I'd like to have the witness shown Exhibit 6/1 so we can

4 determine precisely what area he's talking about.

5 Q. Witness, could you please -- you mentioned the part of the

6 building where the beatings were occurring. Where is that?

7 A. Here, in this part.

8 MS. KUO: The record should reflect that the witness is pointing

9 to the area that is directly behind the entrance into the KP Dom as you

10 enter. It appears to be an anteroom. Thank you.

11 JUDGE HUNT: It's, in fact, the area between the entrance to the

12 KP Dom and the entrance from the interior, or the exit to the interior of

13 the KP Dom which has been shown on these photographs.

14 MS. KUO: Yes, that is precisely where this witness has

15 indicated.

16 Q. Now, could you tell if there was a pattern in the way the

17 prisoners were taken out? In other words, were there lists from which the

18 guards would call out names?

19 A. Some people were called out individually, but then there were also

20 lists that were made up amongst us, the prisoners. Very often the prison

21 guards would come into our rooms and compile a list of our names, and then

22 they took them back to the administration people. Whether these were the

23 criteria for taking people out, I really can't say.

24 Q. Did you ever see military police come to the KP Dom with lists?

25 A. Not in the compound that we were staying at.

Page 899

1 Q. Were there lists that were got from the gate leading into the

2 KP Dom compound? In other words, did you ever see somebody come through

3 that gate or come from that gate with a list, and then detainees were

4 taken out?

5 A. Yes, yes, that did happen. Especially when people were allegedly

6 being taken out for exchanges, then there were lists that were taken by

7 prison guards, they were calling out people's names in rooms, and that is

8 how they took people away for alleged exchanges.

9 Q. When you said there were lists taken by the prison guards, do you

10 know from whom the prison guards took the lists?

11 A. That would come from the administration.

12 Q. You said that these people were taken for exchanges. How do you

13 know they were taken for exchanges?

14 A. Well, the guards would tell us, "Get ready --" I mean they would

15 tell those people whose names were called out, they would say, "Get

16 ready. You will be going for an exchange."

17 Q. The people who were going for an exchange, were they ever

18 returned?

19 A. Some were; others weren't.

20 Q. Did you know what happened to those people who were taken out and

21 told they were going to be exchanged?

22 A. We found out through certain ways that they were taken away for an

23 exchange, and for others, we could never find out what happened to them.

24 Q. Going back to the beatings, were there beatings that occurred

25 where people were taken out and not returned?

Page 900

1 A. Yes, there were such cases.

2 Q. Can you describe those cases for us? If you remember the specific

3 victims and the specific times.

4 A. The time that I remember is from the 1st until the 25th of June,

5 1992. In that period, a number of people disappeared, people who were

6 interrogated and who were the victims of violence.

7 MS. KUO: Perhaps this might go a little more smoothly if I ask

8 the witness to be shown Exhibit P55, and we can go down the list.

9 Since the list is being put on the ELMO, there is another copy

10 which the witness can be shown, and then in that way it's a little bit

11 clearer.

12 Q. Witness, I would ask you to go down this list and I'll ask you

13 specifically about each individual.

14 The first person on the list, did you know him and did you see him

15 at KP Dom?

16 A. I personally did not know him. I heard that he was in the KP Dom

17 under this name and surname.

18 Q. But do you personally know what happened to him at the KP Dom?

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection. Objection.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If the witness says that he did not

22 know him personally, then it is quite clear that he personally could not

23 have known what had happened to him. He said that he heard later that a

24 person under that name was in the KP Dom, and the question was whether he

25 personally knew him and whether he personally knew what happened to him.

Page 901

1 The witness said no. But I think that such a question is out of line.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I think, Ms. Kuo, what you're really asking him is a

3 matter of hearsay, so he can't say that he personally knew but he heard of

4 it later. That would overcome the objection.

5 MS. KUO: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. But since the witness

6 said no, I think I'll just move on.

7 JUDGE HUNT: All right.

8 MS. KUO:

9 Q. Witness, looking at the person listed under number 2 of the

10 exhibit, do you know what happened to this person at KP Dom?

11 A. I knew person number 2. He was taken out for interrogation

12 several times and mistreated. He simply disappeared. He did not reappear

13 after having been taken to the administrative building a few times.

14 Q. What happened to him when he was taken to the administrative

15 building those times?

16 A. He was interrogated, beaten up.

17 Q. Were you able to hear the beating?

18 A. Personally, I did not hear it, but I heard about this from

19 others.

20 Q. Let me ask you about listening or hearing the beatings. Did

21 you -- were you in a position to hear what was happening in the

22 administrative building? Did you try to hear or did you try not to hear?

23 A. I really tried -- I really tried to hear it very little, but

24 there's something in human beings, some kind of curiosity that lures us to

25 what can be heard. There were sounds that could be heard that indicated

Page 902

1 that there was a beating that was going on and then we would withdraw to

2 that part of the room where it could not be heard.

3 Q. Why did you withdraw to a part of the room where you could not

4 hear?

5 A. Because it was hard. It was hard for me as a person to listen to

6 that, to hear someone being mistreated in such a way. Also because at

7 that moment, I felt unsafe myself.

8 Q. Did you take any other measures to prevent from hearing these

9 sounds?

10 A. There were individuals that put pillows on their ears, ones that

11 they usually lay on so that they could not hear the sounds.

12 Q. Did you do that on occasion as well?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. KUO: We'll continue now through the Schedule C, and I might

15 want to ask from the Court whether it helps to have the name on the

16 transcript as well. I know the witness has just been giving the number.

17 I am not very good at pronouncing, and I would ask the witness to read the

18 name if that would be helpful to the Court; otherwise we can proceed with

19 the numbers as we have.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Provided the numbers are there as well as the name,

21 then the court reporter can pick up what the name is even if you

22 mispronounce it as badly as Mr. Smith and I have been mispronouncing it.

23 [Error in realtime transcript].

24 MS. KUO: Perhaps what I will do is ask the witness to read the

25 names and then it will be the clearest possible.

Page 903

1 Q. So, Witness, could you tell us the name at number three and tell

2 us if you know what happened to him at KP Dom?

3 A. Number three, Abdurahman Cansukic.

4 Q. What happened to him at KP Dom?

5 A. As far as he was concerned, I can only state that he was taken

6 away one day. He was taken away one day and he never came back. We never

7 saw him.

8 Q. The person at number four, tell us his name and what you know of

9 what happened to him at KP Dom?

10 JUDGE HUNT: Just before you do that, I know that the court

11 reporter will be correcting the transcript against the tape, but I did not

12 say providing if the court reporter can pronounce it as badly as Mr. Smith

13 and myself. But anyway, it may be checked later against the tape. I

14 would not like the court reporter to think that I had said that of her.

15 MS. KUO: Just making available a copy of the Schedule C in case

16 the court reporters would find it helpful. I'm being told that they have

17 it already so let's proceed with number four.

18 Q. Please read us his name and tell us what you know of what happened

19 to him.

20 A. I knew him less. I can say straight away, let us not waste too

21 much time on this, the same goes for person number five. They were there

22 allegedly, but I do not know of their fate.

23 Q. Could you tell us the name of number five?

24 A. Dzamalija Juso.

25 Q. I meant number five, not number six. Just read his name for us.

Page 904

1 A. Number five, Enko Cedic.

2 Q. Now, we'll go to number six. Please read his name for us and tell

3 us what you know happened to him.

4 A. Number six is Juso Dzamalija, a man I knew. He worked in a shop.

5 He was brought to the KP Dom allegedly from the city hospital. During his

6 stay in the KP Dom, he was in a cell where he committed suicide. He

7 hanged himself.

8 Q. Do you know the circumstances of how he hanged himself?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Moving on to number seven. Please read his name for us and tell

11 us what you knew about him.

12 A. Kemal Dzelilovic, a teacher brought in from Novi Sad to the KP

13 Dom. He was taken out for interrogations several times. He was beaten,

14 mistreated. He was allegedly taken out for an exchange and he never

15 returned.

16 Q. Could you read us the name of number eight and tell us what

17 happened to him.

18 MS. KUO: Your Honour, just for that last individual, Schedule B,

19 incident 19 is mentioned.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

21 MS. KUO: And then also just going back to Schedule C, victim

22 number 2, that's also in Schedule B, incident 5.

23 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Witness. Could you read us the name

24 of number eight and tell us what happened to him?

25 A. Ramo Dzendusic, a man who worked in the Secretariat for National

Page 905

1 Defence. He was in the KP Dom. On one day he was taken out, he, alone,

2 outside the KP Dom building, and we never found out about him later.

3 Q. Could you read us the name of number nine and tell us what

4 happened to him?

5 A. Adil Granov, an engineer, worked in a company in Foca. He was

6 taken out for interrogations on several occasions and then he was

7 allegedly accused of having a radio transmitter in his possession. He was

8 beaten. He was taken away. I don't know what happened to him.

9 MS. KUO: This, Your Honour, is mentioned in Schedule B, incident

10 22.

11 Q. Just to clarify, Witness, do you know whether Adil Granov went by

12 the name of Adnan Granov as well?

13 A. I'm not aware of that.

14 MS. KUO: Your Honour, just to clarify. The incident mentions the

15 first name as Adnan Granov, and we're not quite certain at the moment if

16 that's exactly the same incident.

17 Q. Now the person listed under number 10.

18 A. I knew the person listed number under 10 personally. He was with

19 us at 9.30 in the evening one day. I can't remember the date he was with

20 us. He was taken out for interrogation and he never came back again.

21 Q. And the person at number 10 is Nail Hodzic, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Witness, the person listed at number 11, Ivancic Mate, can you

24 tell us what happened to him?

25 A. That is a person who was an ethnic Croat. He was a medical

Page 906

1 worker. He was also taken away. I can't remember whether he was taken

2 out with someone else as well. At any rate, he was taken out of the KP

3 Dom and no one knows what happened to him.

4 Q. Is that the same person that you described earlier as being the

5 male nurse who was beaten on his way into the KP Dom?

6 A. No.

7 Q. The person listed at number 12, Esad Kiselica, what happened to

8 him?

9 A. I knew him personally. He was an electrician. In that period,

10 there were power blackouts in the KP Dom, and since he did that kind of

11 work at transmission, transformer stations, he was allegedly taken there

12 to repair something and he was never returned to the KP Dom.

13 Q. The person listed at number 13, Halim Konjo, what happened to him?

14 A. A person I also knew. He worked in the catering business. He was

15 taken out for interrogation a few times. He was mistreated and beaten.

16 The last time he was taken out, he was also beaten but he never returned.

17 MS. KUO: This is listed in Schedule B, incident 33.

18 Q. The person listed at number 14, Adil Krajcin.

19 A. I knew him personally. He worked in the commercial section of the

20 brown coal mine. He was with me in the same room. During a certain

21 period of time, he was taken out one afternoon and never returned.

22 Q. The person listed at number 15, Mustafa Kuloglija.

23 A. I knew him personally. He was a teacher. At the very outset on

24 several occasions, he was taken out for interrogations, beaten. After

25 these interrogations, during one period of time, he did not return to the

Page 907

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 908

1 KP Dom.

2 MS. KUO: Your Honours, this is listed on Schedule B, incident

3 34.

4 Q. The person listed at number 16, Fuad Mandzo.

5 A. A younger man whom I did not know well enough. I knew his

6 father. He was in the KP Dom for a very short period of time. He was

7 allegedly taken out for an exchange but I do not know about his fate.

8 Q. The person at number 17, Krunoslav Marinovic.

9 A. This man is an ethnic Croat, a TV repairman. He spent a short

10 period of time in the KP Dom, then he was taken out for an alleged

11 exchange, and I'm not aware of what happened to him after that.

12 Q. The person at 18, Omer Mujezinovic.

13 A. It should be a policeman. I'm not sure. I cannot say anything

14 more specific about this man.

15 Q. Number 19, Nurko Nisic.

16 A. A man I knew personally. He was a lawyer by profession. He

17 worked in the municipal assembly. He was among the people who were beaten

18 and mistreated the most. Some information indicates that he died as a

19 result of the mistreatment, but I cannot corroborate that.

20 Q. Number 20, Hamid Ramovic.

21 A. A person I did not know well enough and about whom I could not say

22 much.

23 Q. Husein Rikalo is listed as person number 21.

24 A. I would say that all three are brothers. That's the only thing I

25 know, and there's nothing else I could say, actually. Allegedly, they

Page 909

1 were taken out for interrogations either individually or together, and

2 then they were taken away from there. But I cannot say anything more than

3 that.

4 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I see that it's 1.00.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Not really, but it's fairly close.

6 We'll resume again at 2.30.

7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.59 p.m.

8

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Page 910

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

3 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, during our last session, you described how some members

5 of a reserve unit were accommodated in the canteen, in the upstairs of the

6 eating area. Did you mean the canteen where the detainees ate or some

7 other place?

8 A. No. That is outside the building.

9 Q. And who ate in that place, outside the building?

10 A. Well, I guess those who are staying there.

11 MS. KUO: Perhaps the witness can be shown Exhibit P6.

12 Q. I'll ask you whether you can identify the place where the members

13 of the reserve unit were accommodated.

14 MS. KUO: Usher, perhaps we can show the witness first and then

15 place it on the ELMO.

16 JUDGE HUNT: We had some evidence about this from one of the very

17 early witnesses, the person who had been a guard some years ago.

18 MS. KUO: Yes, but I wanted to confirm that that is --

19 JUDGE HUNT: That that's the same building, yes, I realise that.

20 But there was evidence about somewhere where the staff ate.

21 MS. KUO: Yes.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

23 MS. KUO:

24 Q. Witness, can you point out the place you were referring to on this

25 diagram.

Page 911

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. KUO: The record should reflect that the witness is pointing

4 to a building that is to the right of the bridge indicated on this

5 diagram, and that the word "restoran" is on that structure. Thank you

6 very much.

7 JUDGE HUNT: That is the same building, is it not?

8 MS. KUO: Yes, it is.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

10 MS. KUO:

11 Q. Now I'd like to go back to Exhibit P55. Just before the break we

12 had finished with the person listed at 23, so now I would like to ask you

13 about the person listed at number 24, Seval Soro. What do you know about

14 what happened to him at the KP Dom?

15 A. I did not know that person, and I do not know what happened to

16 him.

17 Q. Number 25, Kemal Tulek.

18 A. This person I did know. He worked for the penitentiary, for the

19 KP Dom. He worked at Miljevina, in the fish restaurant, as it was called,

20 which belonged to the KP Dom.

21 That individual was, for quite a long period of time, in a cell,

22 and after he came out from a cell, he spent a couple of days in Room 15,

23 in which we were too. After that he was taken for exchange, and I know

24 nothing about his subsequent fate.

25 MS. KUO: Your Honours, regarding the person at number 24, Seval

Page 912

1 Soro, that incident of his beating is mentioned in Schedule B, incident

2 54.

3 Q. Now, Witness, the person listed at number 26, Enes Uzunovic.

4 A. I knew him personally, in a way. We worked in the same building.

5 He had one duty; I had a different duty. But he was a nurse by

6 profession. He was taken for interrogation several times, beaten, brought

7 back to different rooms. At some point in time after the interrogation,

8 he has been on the list of missing.

9 Q. Is that the person whom you mentioned as being beaten on his way

10 in, inside the KP Dom?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And then drawing your attention to the person listed at number 28,

13 and number 29 as well, both of them, you mentioned that you witnessed

14 their arrest. What do you know of what happened to Munib Veiz, number 28?

15 A. He was not in the same room with me, but I could see him go to the

16 canteen for meals. Sometime around the 24th of June, 1992, he was taken

17 for exchange, or, rather, he was taken to the administrative building, and

18 we've lost all trace of him since.

19 MS. KUO: Your Honours, a beating of Munib Veiz is mentioned at

20 Schedule B, incident 59.

21 Q. And finally, Witness, the person at number 29, Zulfo Veiz, what

22 happened to him?

23 A. This person was in the same room with me until the 25th of June,

24 1992. Then in the evening hours, he was taken to a room in the

25 administrative building and personally I did not hear how he was

Page 913

1 mistreated, but others did. They said that he was reportedly beaten and

2 that whoever did that called out, "Zulfo, Zulfo," several times. That

3 person also allegedly heard how he -- how water was poured over him which

4 should mean, I suppose, that he had lost consciousness due to beating.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness. Did you ever see any soldiers beat detainees

6 in the yard?

7 A. I could point out -- I could recall the 30th of October, 1993 when

8 three armed persons went through the gate where guards were on duty and

9 headed for the building housing the canteen where my colleague and I were

10 about to finish our meal or, rather, we were already lining up in front of

11 the canteen. About ten metres in front of us, those three suddenly turned

12 up in front of us and cocked their rifles and asked -- shouting "Heads

13 down." They came up to our group and began to strike blows with their

14 hands and their feet; those in front and in the middle, and at the end, in

15 the rear.

16 Q. Were you among the people who were hit?

17 A. I cannot say that I received a direct blow, but as this commotion

18 lasted, one of them tried to get at somebody else and merely brushed me on

19 the back. So I cannot say that I was hit -- stricken directly, but I can

20 give you the name of a man who was really dealt a severe blow by one of

21 those three and he was a very, very big man.

22 Q. Who was that person?

23 A. I'm not getting the sound.

24 Q. You said you could tell us his name.

25 A. His name was Dzevad Lojo and he was the manager of the brown coal

Page 914

1 mine who, at that time, was staying in the same room with me.

2 Q. You mentioned that these were three armed people. Were they also

3 wearing uniforms?

4 A. Yes, camouflage uniforms.

5 Q. Did they say anything when they were beating people?

6 A. They used foul language, called us balijas, Turks, fundamentalists,

7 and it went on for a couple of minutes. Then they proceeded towards the

8 kitchen of the canteen where they attacked the cooks asking, "What do you

9 cook for balijas? Why do you prepare any food? Why do you feed

10 balijas?" But they left shortly and headed for Room 16 or, rather, in

11 front of the building.

12 Q. Were any prison guards present when this beating was occurring?

13 A. No, not at that particular moment. I suppose they were in their

14 own offices.

15 Q. Did you see whether prison guards tried to stop these three

16 soldiers from coming into the KP Dom?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness just said that the guards

20 were not there, that they were in their own rooms. So how can this be

21 followed by a question, "Well, did you see if they tried to stop them from

22 doing what they were doing?" I mean they couldn't if they were in their

23 own offices.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I don't see that the two questions are inconsistent.

25 The first one was: "Were any prison guards present when this beating was

Page 915

1 occurring?" Answer: "No, not at that particular moment. I suppose they

2 were in their own offices." And then the question: "Did you see where

3 the prison guards tried to stop these three soldiers from coming into the

4 KP Dom."

5 That's two quite entirely different things.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours. I did

7 not hear the end. I did not know it related to this rather than the entry

8 of the soldiers into the KP Dom. I didn't wait to hear the end of the

9 interpretation.

10 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right. But it may be right if you

11 waited. It doesn't matter if you're to interrupt an answer.

12 MS. KUO:

13 Q. I'll repeat the question, Witness. Did you see whether any prison

14 guards tried to prevent the soldiers from coming into the KP Dom?

15 A. As we stood there in front of the canteen, we saw that something

16 was happening at the front door, that there was some commotion, some show

17 of force, and I guess they forced their way into the compound.

18 Q. When did any prison guards appear?

19 A. While they were in the canteen, one of the guards came and told us

20 to go back to our rooms.

21 Q. What effect did this incident have on you psychologically?

22 A. Afterwards, when we were in our rooms and listened to what they

23 were saying outside, they were calling us cattle, "Where is that cattle we

24 are to take?" But then they went towards the administrative building and

25 we were indeed very worried about our safety because it was the first time

Page 916

1 that somebody, apart from the guards or the administration, entered the

2 facility and with arms at that.

3 Q. Now, at the beginning of your description of this incident,

4 Witness, you said that it was the 30th of October, 1993. In the statement

5 that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in January 1999, you said

6 that it was in 1992, not in 1993. Can you tell us which date is correct,

7 which year this happened?

8 A. No, it had to be 1993 because there were few people left. And the

9 next day, a group -- it was taken away -- should mean that it was that

10 date.

11 MS. KUO: This is the incident that is described in the indictment

12 at paragraph 5.13.

13 Q. Did the warden of the KP Dom change at some point?

14 A. By mid-1993. So sometime in July, therefore, we observed some

15 changes in the sense that a new person appeared, yes. That is a person

16 who was introduced to us as a warden and another one as his deputy and the

17 third person as the manager of the Drina business enterprise. Those were

18 the offices which existed at that time and also before the war broke out.

19 Q. Do you remember the names of those three people who were

20 introduced to you?

21 A. The new warden was Zoran Sekulovic. That is how he was introduced

22 to us. His deputy Milutin Tijanic, and as the manager of the Drina

23 business company, Radojica Tesovic. He was the man who, before the war,

24 was the warden of the KP Dom.

25 Q. While you were detained at KP Dom, was KP Dom divided into a civil

Page 917

1 part and a military part with different administrators, or was it

2 functioning as one institution?

3 A. Well, to my mind, it was one institution.

4 Q. After the new warden, Sekulovic, was introduced to you, did things

5 improve?

6 A. I couldn't say that any improvement took place after the new

7 warden arrived, or the departure of the old one meant something. It is

8 possible that external circumstances had a role in that, because at that

9 time, representatives of the ICRC came more frequently, so they may have

10 prevailed over the administration to improve the conditions under which we

11 were kept.

12 Q. After the new warden was introduced, did you continue to see

13 Milorad Krnojelac at KP Dom at all?

14 A. At that time, the opinion prevailed that Milorad was no longer in

15 the KP Dom, and some people thought that he had gone back to his earlier

16 job, that is, teacher's job.

17 Q. Did you see him there? Did you see Milorad Krnojelac anymore at

18 KP Dom after that?

19 A. I cannot really affirm that. He may have come now and then, but

20 not having the same office as he used to hold before.

21 Q. Let me just be very focused. Did you personally see him?

22 A. I do not remember, really. At that time, no.

23 Q. When were you finally exchanged?

24 A. That exchange took place on the 5th of October, 1994.

25 Q. While you were detained in the KP Dom, did you take notes about

Page 918

1 what was happening to you?

2 A. Well, each one of us tried to remember or possibly write on a

3 piece of paper something, so that I also took some notes in a certain

4 way.

5 Q. What kinds of things did you record?

6 A. Well, I suppose everybody would like to know how many people were

7 there, where people were being taken away, how often, how many, what

8 happened to them.

9 Q. What happened to the notes that you started taking?

10 A. What happened is that a detainee tried to escape on the 7th of

11 July, 1993, and on the 9th of July, in the afternoon, there was a raid in

12 the prison of our quarters by a large number of guards and administrative

13 staff. They raided our rooms, and there they searched in detail all the

14 things. And they not only frisked us but we had to strip down. The

15 remaining documents or possibly some money were then seized.

16 And notes, I cannot talk about others, but from me, well, they

17 were not -- it was nothing in detail; however, they took these notes away,

18 and I don't know why. I did not suffer any consequences because of them,

19 or, rather, we felt the consequences because of the escape of that one

20 detainee, because they completely denied any medical assistance to us and

21 for two or three weeks we were denied food that we used to get before

22 that; that is, we were getting food but much less than before. They were

23 such tiny slices, and water more than anything else in that fluid.

24 Q. Did you try to reconstruct your notes after your first set was

25 seized?

Page 919

1 A. Well, time is the best healer. But apart from that, of course,

2 one writes down, one notes down, so ...

3 Q. But while you were in the KP Dom, did you start a new set of

4 notes?

5 A. No, no. Something was done but not as before. We did something

6 that was not significant for this Tribunal; that is, we wrote recipes. We

7 all lived for the day when we would be free again and when we would go

8 back to some kind of work, and we were hungry so we talked about food.

9 Q. Did you try to reconstruct lists of names of people and what

10 happened to them and things like that, take notes about what was happening

11 to you a second time, notes that you were able to get out of KP Dom?

12 A. Well, yes, there were such instances. But unless it is necessary,

13 I'd really rather not tell you how it was done.

14 Q. When you were released from KP Dom, did you spend some time trying

15 to write down what had happened to you?

16 A. Two and a half years, which is the time I spent in detention, is a

17 period which I - no question about it - wanted to record, and especially

18 the time when eventually I was free again. That month which I spent

19 waiting for the documents and the rest, I described in particular detail,

20 but it's more a sentimental part of everything I went through.

21 Q. Was that a difficult process for you, thinking about the time that

22 you had spent in KP Dom?

23 A. Well, no question about it, it was very hard emotionally, and

24 there were times when one would succumb to apathy, to a crisis. Any

25 recollection, whenever one goes back to it and remembers, it affects one,

Page 920

1 and especially one who came out with health complaints. So, naturally, it

2 wasn't easy.

3 Q. Can you tell us how you suffered physically while you were at the

4 KP Dom?

5 A. Well, to lose 33 kilogrammes in a war situation in fear, and all

6 that one had to go through - the uncertainty, the fact that one, for a

7 long period of time, did not know where the rest of his family was,

8 brothers, sisters, and everybody else - was bound to affect one's mental

9 state, one's emotional life.

10 Q. Do you continue to suffer either physically or emotionally from

11 your time in KP Dom?

12 A. I think that the effects are lasting. I have those problems all

13 the time, and my physician can corroborate it with his findings; even now,

14 since I came here. I am here, but just because I really want the truth to

15 be established, something that for me never was a way to resolve things.

16 Of all those things, what hurts me most is that I had a larger

17 number of friends, acquaintances, family friends, neighbours who are Serbs

18 who, if I may put it that way, betrayed me, forgot me. How is it that in

19 two and a half years none of them ever addressed me a word? I tried to

20 establish contact with many of them. I was isolated only because I was an

21 eminent citizen, because I belonged to one ethnic group, to one particular

22 people. And I as a man will never be able to understand that.

23 MS. KUO: Your Honours, those are all our questions.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Mr. Vasic?

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. With your

Page 921

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14

15

16

17

18

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Page 922

1 leave, I should like to say good afternoon to the witness and introduce

2 myself.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:

4 Q. I am lawyer, Miroslav Vasic, and I'm one of the counsel for the

5 accused Milorad Krnojelac.

6 My first question has to do with the statements that you gave to

7 the investigators of the Prosecutor. You were already asked today by the

8 Prosecution if you had given a statement to the investigators on the 26th

9 and 27th of January, 1999.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you sign that statement and read it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So that we properly protect your identity, will you please wait

14 until I switch off my microphone so that your voice doesn't get through

15 it.

16 Did you also, on the 7th of October, 1994, make a statement to the

17 investigators of the Sarajevo police?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you were interviewed by the Prosecutor's investigator, did

20 you turn over to them your notes which are your record of your memories

21 and your experience in the KP Dom?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In the statement which you gave to the Prosecutor's investigators

24 about the beginning of the conflict in Foca, did you say then that after

25 the failed negotiations between the SDS and SDA, that night of the 8th of

Page 923

1 April, both sides tried to take control over some public institutions in

2 Foca?

3 A. I never mentioned any parties in my statements, as far as I can

4 remember, nor reasons for which the war broke out.

5 Q. No, no, no, it is not the reasons, I'm not talking about reasons,

6 but that both sides tried to take control over some public institutions.

7 A. Yes, I did say that.

8 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether, in your notes, the ones that

9 you handed over to the investigator of the OTP, did you make a list of the

10 officials and the guards at the KP Dom in Foca?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Along with the names, did you --

13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, you are coming in too soon. Wait for the

14 translation to finish, please.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will bear

16 that in mind.

17 Q. Along with the names that you listed here, did you also record

18 your memories concerning their role and their characteristics during that

19 time while you were at the KP Dom?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you wrote about Milorad Krnojelac, item number one, did you

22 say, "That is a man who does not belong to the category of those who

23 committed crimes. One does not know whether he could have done something

24 to prevent the torture and killing of innocent persons. He is guilty

25 because he found himself in that role."

Page 924

1 A. As far as I can remember it was written that way.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 JUDGE HUNT: When the two of you are speaking the same language,

4 you cause terrible problems for the translators if you do not pause.

5 After the question is finished, would you just pause before you finish the

6 answer? You may, indeed, be able to hear in the background the

7 translation is still going. They are working about half a sentence behind

8 you. If you come in with an answer straight away, the translators have

9 troubles keeping up with you. If you just remember that, please.

10 THE INTERPRETER: This time there is a technical problem because

11 of the delay of the protected sound.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Sorry, I've just had a message from the

13 interpreters. They are having additional problems because of the voice

14 distortion; there is an even further delay. So a longer pause than

15 before. Thanks, Mr. Vasic.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll try to

17 follow the transcript which I see on the screen.

18 Q. Item number three of this same note where you mention Savo

19 Todovic, did you write the following about him: "The military command

20 gave him the task of being a persecutor and personal torturer of innocent

21 Muslim people. In general assessment, Todovic is responsible for the

22 suffering of many inmates. In addition to the role he had, he also had an

23 intelligence role and many feared him for that reason; not only the

24 inmates but also the prison officials."

25 A. Yes, that is what I wrote.

Page 925

1 Q. Thank you. Next paragraph. Excuse me, same item. "Many suffered

2 and spent their most difficult moments in solitary cells is due to Savo

3 Todovic and his methods of interrogation and his punishments."

4 Is that what you wrote?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Next paragraph, same item says: "He took particular

7 pleasure in taking people for interrogation and extracting the truth,

8 something insignificant, in order to create affairs and ostensibly

9 organise secret activities and propaganda known only to him. Persecutor

10 and torturer who daily spent time in his office with tinted windows from

11 where he watched our every move."

12 Did you write that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. "His torture was felt especially during the time when an inmate

15 tried to escape." We are not going to mention his name. "He then applied

16 his methods of interrogation which we had until the 14th of August, 1992

17 when he interrogated and punished people for listening to the news."

18 Did you write this?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the last paragraph of this item, "On his orders ..." you are

21 referring to Savo Todovic, "... inmates were hidden from the

22 representatives of the International Red Cross every time they came for

23 reasons only known to him. He would bring Serbs into empty rooms where

24 normally we would be detained in order to more easily persuade the ICRC

25 that the people they were looking for were not there."

Page 926

1 Did you write this?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to go back to item 2 of this same

4 list where you wrote about Zoran Sekulovic. You said he was warden from

5 mid-1993. It says here, I quote, "The general opinion of us camp

6 detainees is that with his arrival and with the arrival of a former

7 director, and his deputy Milutin Tijanic, our situation improved

8 significantly especially when it came to food. They spent more time

9 within the prison, the kitchen, and in conversation with the detainees,

10 but a measure of reservation was present probably due to the anxiety over

11 the other military side. This division existed throughout."

12 Did you write that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. In your notes, you also made a list of persons who

15 took part in the physical mistreatment of Muslims; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Item 12 of this list inter alia includes the name of Savo Todovic

18 and next to his name it says, "Person from the military command. The

19 military command put this person in charge of detainees." Is that

20 correct?

21 A. Well, I cannot claim that this is correct but that is what it

22 seemed like at the time.

23 Q. However, did you write this?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Thank you. I would like to go back to the period of your stay at

Page 927

1 the KP Dom. During your stay there, did you ever hear Milorad Krnojelac

2 speak in public or make any public announcements?

3 A. No.

4 Q. I'm sorry. In your statement to the investigator of the OTP you

5 said that, "Most guards wore camouflage uniforms." What colour were these

6 uniforms?

7 A. I have to admit that I'm not very good with colours but people

8 know what camouflage uniforms look like. There is the colour red, and

9 blue, and green.

10 Q. Are those military camouflage uniforms?

11 A. I cannot tell you that either. However, when I say "blue", during

12 one period of time, the guards probably wore uniforms that belonged to

13 them according to the post they held.

14 Q. And in the period preceding that period?

15 A. Those were standard blue uniforms that were worn by guards in that

16 period.

17 Q. Thank you. You explained to us here that on two occasions, you

18 were put in solitary confinement. The first time you explained that a

19 guard took you to the solitary confinement cell and locked you in it. Did

20 you tell the investigator of the Prosecution that Obrenovic, the guard,

21 locked you up in solitary confinement without having had to ask anyone for

22 permission?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. When you were locked up a second time, you said that Savo Todovic

25 asked you to come to his office when you were released from there. Could

Page 928

1 you tell us where his office was?

2 A. It was not his office, it was a room in the other part of the

3 building that was used by the guards.

4 Q. Do you know where Savo Todovic's office was?

5 A. Oh, by all means, yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us?

7 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

8 Q. Could you tell us where this office was?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was it on the right-hand side on the second floor of the

11 administrative building?

12 A. I don't understand this very well. You have to put this question

13 more precisely.

14 Q. No, I'm just asking where his office was. You told me where he

15 received you, but I'm interested in hearing where his office was. You

16 said that he observed you from there around the clock.

17 A. It was a room on the second floor of the administrative building

18 quite close to the dining hall.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Today you stated that you would see Milorad

20 Krnojelac in uniform of the former JNA and in camouflage uniform. We

21 heard a number of witnesses here who claimed to have seen him in civilian

22 clothes. Did you, perhaps, sometimes see him in civilian clothes?

23 A. I cannot recall that period.

24 Q. Thank you. Today you said that, from time to time, you would see

25 Milorad Krnojelac in the early evening hours, not late. However, in your

Page 929

1 statement given to the investigator of the OTP, you mentioned, "I did not

2 hear Krnojelac make any speeches or make any public announcements in the

3 KP Dom," -- I do apologise for reading so fast -- "I would see Krnojelac

4 in the KP Dom usually during daytime. I don't know whether he came during

5 the night or not."

6 Is that what you stated?

7 A. When I say, "during the day, daytime," I am referring to early

8 evening hours as well. I meant it in that sense.

9 Q. So at night when it would get dark, he would not come. You did

10 not see him come.

11 A. At night, late in the night, I can say that I did not see him

12 then.

13 Q. Thank you. You said today when you were talking about the

14 beatings that the worst period was between the 1st of June and the 25th of

15 June, 1992, and that most people who were taken out were taken out in that

16 period. In the statement that you gave to the police in Sarajevo, did you

17 say that most of these beatings took place by the -- were carried out by

18 members of the military police and during the night at that?

19 A. I think I could not have said that it only took place during the

20 night when it happened during the day as well.

21 Q. I did not say that you stated that it was only during the night, I

22 said mostly during the night. That means that it did take place during

23 the day as well.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You stated today that Munib Veiz, a detainee, was taken out

Page 930

1 sometime around the 24th of June, 1992 and that you saw him in the yard;

2 you stated to the investigators of the Prosecution that he was taken out

3 of your cell on the 23rd of June, 1992. Can you tell us which one of the

4 two is correct concerning Munib Veiz?

5 A. First of all, Munib Veiz was not in my room, Zulfo Veiz was.

6 Q. So Munib Veiz was not in your room. Was he taken out on the 23rd

7 of June, 1992, as you said to the investigator of the OTP?

8 A. I allow for the possibility of either the 23rd or the 24th.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether, in your handwritten notes,

10 you mentioned the name of Boro Ivanovic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was he a member of the military at that time? I mean when you

13 were at the KP Dom.

14 A. I cannot say that. But he was mentioned as a man who belonged to

15 the top leadership of the SDS and who was in charge of prisoners of war.

16 Q. Thank you. Since you said that some houses burned down during the

17 beginning of the conflict in Foca, do you know that Milorad Krnojelac's

18 house burned down too?

19 A. Yes, I know that.

20 Q. Can you tell us when it burned down and in which part of Foca it

21 is, if you know?

22 A. It was at the very beginning of the conflict. It is in the area

23 of Stolarija, in the centre of town.

24 Q. Thank you. I have only three more questions related to the

25 circumstances that prevailed in the KP Dom.

Page 931

1 First of all, do you know whether the guards were shooting at

2 night in the KP Dom and around the KP Dom in order to intimidate the

3 prisoners? Did you write that in your text?

4 A. I can assert that. There was shooting and a lot of it, at that.

5 Whether it was for intimidation purposes or not, well --

6 Q. Thank you. In the statement that you gave to the police in

7 Sarajevo, you said that until May 1992 you could watch television; is that

8 correct?

9 A. You mean within the prison?

10 Q. Yes. You were talking about the KP Dom.

11 A. In some rooms there were TV sets.

12 Q. Thank you. Today you spoke of detainees who were taken to work in

13 the mine. Can you tell me when they went there, in which period? Which

14 year and which period, if you remember?

15 A. I could not say what the dates are and which year it was, but it

16 did take place for about a year.

17 Q. Was it during the second part of your detention?

18 A. In the second part.

19 Q. Thank you. In the statement that you gave to the police in

20 Sarajevo, did you say that prisoners were considerably assisted in terms

21 of health care by Jokanovic, Dobrilovic, Vladicic, and Mrs. Vesna Barevic?

22 A. I gave such a statement, but I don't know whether it says

23 "considerably."

24 Q. Thank you. My last question has to do with a fact that has to do

25 with the economic unit. Was it a profitable unit before the war? I am

Page 932

1 talking about the period before the conflict broke out. Do you know about

2 that?

3 A. I know that that organisation always worked well. But whether it

4 was profitable, that I cannot say.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

7 questions.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Ms. Kuo?

9 MS. KUO: Very briefly, Your Honour.

10 Re-examined by Ms. Kuo:

11 Q. Witness, you were asked questions about a prior statement or

12 something you had previously written with regard to Savo Todovic, and you

13 were asked whether you stated then that the military command put him in

14 charge of detainees.

15 My question to you is: Did you also write in notes that you wrote

16 previously that Milorad Krnojelac was the prison camp director, also

17 appointed by the military command?

18 A. We did not have that kind of information officially, that he was

19 warden of the camp. We only got this information through the prison

20 guards and some of the personnel employed in the administration.

21 Q. So based on what information did you assume or conclude that Savo

22 Todovic and Milorad Krnojelac were appointed by the military command?

23 A. I must say that that is not an assertion, it is just a statement

24 on the basis of what we had been told.

25 Q. I'm trying to establish what you were -- were you told, in fact,

Page 933

1 that they were both appointed by the military command or were you told

2 certain things from which you concluded that they were appointed by the

3 military command?

4 A. Well, I have to say that as we were striving for freedom and

5 thereby the truth, we came to know that they had that role.

6 Q. I'm sorry if I'm not making myself understood. The question isn't

7 about the role but from where they got their power.

8 You stated in your previous statements that they were appointed,

9 both of them, by the military command, and I would like to establish, what

10 information did you have that led you to that assertion?

11 A. That is just an assumption. One cannot officially make such an

12 assertion because we did not have a paper, a document, on the basis of

13 which we could state this reliably. However, rumour had it that that's

14 the way it was.

15 Q. Thank you. And then I would like to ask you also about a question

16 that was posed to you about a previous statement. I'll repeat the

17 statement and then I would like to ask you to explain what you meant.

18 This was read to you by Defence counsel in relation to Zoran Sekulovic,

19 where you wrote: "But a measure of distance was present probably due to

20 the anxiety over the other military side. This division existed

21 throughout."

22 Can you explain what you mean by "a measure of distance ... due to

23 the anxiety over the other military side"? What other military side are

24 you talking about?

25 A. All of us remembered Savo Todovic as a man who was in charge of

Page 934

1 carrying out somebody else's orders, who was an operational person. He is

2 a person who was feared not only by us, but it was our impression that he

3 was feared by employees in the administration as well.

4 Some persons, civilians, who were guards and with whom we could

5 have contact, said that Savo is a person who was put in charge by the

6 command not only of us but also of all those who were employed in the

7 prison administration.

8 Q. But my question is about this other -- it sounds, the way it's

9 read - and I don't know if I've read it incorrectly - that there was

10 somehow one section of the KP Dom and that there was some other side of

11 the KP Dom that was military. Was there such a division? And if not,

12 what did you mean when you wrote this phrase?

13 A. The impression that there was a military part within the KP Dom is

14 not correct. Perhaps this was not worded correctly. It came from the

15 outside.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, the document, I notice, in the folders, it's

17 not translated so I wouldn't be able to check it. But is there something

18 in the context? Because it is a very important issue, this.

19 MS. KUO: Absolutely, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Do you think it might be best if the witness saw the

21 document so that he could have a look at it and then he might be able to

22 explain what he means. If it means that there was a military division and

23 a civil division, then that's very important. If it doesn't mean that, we

24 want to know what he meant.

25 MS. KUO: Absolutely, Your Honour. It is, in fact, translated,

Page 935

1 and it was marked for identification in our binders as 332, and then "/3,"

2 that is the B/C/S, and then "/3A" should be the English and that should be

3 right after --

4 JUDGE HUNT: 333?

5 MS. KUO: I'm sorry, 332/3.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I've just looked through the document. The

7 index, by the way, only has 333, and I looked through it and I couldn't

8 find whether there was a translation or not. But I don't want to look at

9 it myself. I'm just suggesting that perhaps there may be something in the

10 context which will assist you and the witness and the Defence to know

11 precisely what it was he meant.

12 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. So I would like to have the usher

13 show the exhibit to the witness in B/C/S. For the record, it is marked

14 for identification as 332/3.

15 Q. Witness, I will draw your attention to paragraph 2 that you have

16 written and the person whom you've named there as Zoran Sekulovic who was

17 appointed as the warden after Krnojelac, and in that paragraph I draw your

18 attention to the last three sentences. You describe his arrival and how

19 his arrival and the arrival of the deputy improved your situation and then

20 you state that, "They had spent more time within the prison, the kitchen

21 and in conversation with the detainees."

22 Now, it sounds like when you say "they", you are referring to the

23 new administration, Sekulovic, Tesovic, and Tijanic and then comes the

24 sentence that I want to ask you about where you say, "But a measure of

25 distance was present probably due to the anxiety over the other military

Page 936

1 side. This division existed throughout."

2 Please explain to us what you meant by that.

3 A. Well, we consider Savo Todovic as a man who was in charge of us,

4 the detainees, and put in that office by the military command not only

5 that we, the detainees, were afraid of him but even the staff would

6 sometimes communicate with him seeking a supplementary slice of bread.

7 There were some that were more willing to help us and yet they did not

8 dare. And this, I believe, is what this sentence reflects, that some were

9 more reserved, kept their distance, and some were more willing to help.

10 That is what I had in mind.

11 Q. When you say "other military side", so what -- what are the two

12 sides?

13 A. Perhaps I am not expressing myself properly. There was this

14 military one, none other and there was no other. There was military,

15 there was the military one as embodied as its representatives in the KP

16 Dom. That is what we thought. Perhaps we were wrong.

17 Q. Let me try to see if I understand you, and please don't let me put

18 words in your mouth. I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.

19 Are you saying that the division here, when you say the division existed

20 throughout, existed between the people who wanted to help the detainees

21 and the others who were afraid of showing too much kindness to the

22 detainees?

23 A. Yes. I think that is a very good way of putting it.

24 Q. And the measure of distance that you are talking about here is in

25 the context of the new administrators coming in and spending more time

Page 937

1 with the detainees and yet maintaining a distance with the detainees; is

2 that right?

3 A. I can say that about those who were before that because I am

4 referring to the entire period.

5 Q. And the anxiety over the military side, do you mean the anxiety

6 over people who were in control of the KP Dom, that is, the military?

7 A. Well, it derives from the fact that as of the beginning of the

8 conflict, contact with Serbs, with our townsmen, was prohibited, and it

9 extended to the camp too. There was always fear. There was always

10 apprehension, apprehensiveness to establish contact with us.

11 MS. KUO: I hope that clarifies matters.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You may leave

13 now. If you wait until the blinds on that side of the room are lowered so

14 that you will not be seen from the public gallery when you leave.

15 The next witness is FWS-198.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 MR. SMITH: Good afternoon. Yes, Your Honours, the witness is

18 198. There is one matter I'd like to raise briefly before the witness

19 enters the courtroom. He has been given a protection measure of a

20 pseudonym. Yesterday, he advised the office that he would like a further

21 protection measure of image distortion, not voice distortion. The

22 technician booth has been informed if, in fact, that was allowed. He was

23 under the apprehension that he was going to have image distortion and he

24 was advised yesterday that that hasn't been granted because it wasn't

25 requested and because of that misapprehension, I would ask that that

Page 938

1 protection measure be put in place.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'd like to know, if I may, just on what basis

3 he needs it.

4 MR. SMITH: On the basis that he would be recognised when

5 this -- these proceedings are televised throughout Bosnia and other places

6 and he is concerned that other people that may not -- that may disagree or

7 may not like what he may say in court.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Actually, if I may say so, both you and he are wrong

9 because the order that was made on the 26th of October does, in fact, have

10 FWS-198 as having facial distortion.

11 MR. SMITH: Well, Your Honour, that is my misapprehension. On the

12 internal list that I have, it's just that the witness only required a

13 pseudonym. So that's my mistake.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I am absolutely certain because I signed the order

15 and I've got the order in front of me.

16 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry for taking up that time, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right.

18 Can we have the witness, please. Is there any objection,

19 Mr. Bakrac, to the document with the witness' pseudonym at the top? It

20 will be P400 if there's no objection.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

22 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: P400, and it will be under seal.

24 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Take the solemn declaration from the witness,

Page 939

1 please.

2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

3 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

5 WITNESS: WITNESS FWS-198

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examined by Mr. Smith:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Looking at the paper in front of you, under the number 198, does

11 your name appear?

12 A. Yes, it is here.

13 Q. And under that, your date of birth?

14 A. It is, yes.

15 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... corresponding numbers alongside of

16 them --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I would ask that if you wish to use those names within your

19 testimony, that you use the numbers rather than the names that appear

20 alongside of them.

21 A. I understand, yes.

22 Q. Witness, where were you born?

23 A. I was born in Foca.

24 Q. And what is your ethnicity?

25 A. Muslim.

Page 940

1 Q. In 1992, were you married?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you have children?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And before the war commenced, where did you live?

6 A. In Foca.

7 Q. What general area did you live in Foca?

8 A. Recica, the railway station near Foca town.

9 Q. And is that in the Foca town or outside of it?

10 A. No, out, outside the town.

11 Q. Did this area have a predominant ethnicity of people that lived

12 there?

13 A. No, it was mixed.

14 Q. And did you live in a house or an apartment building?

15 A. Apartment building. (redacted)

16 Q. And what date did the war commence in Foca?

17 A. On the 8th of April, 1992.

18 Q. And where were you when the war broke out, and what were you

19 doing?

20 A. I worked until the very last day -- that is on the 7th of April, I

21 was still at the place of my work and a woman came in and told me I had to

22 go home. So I went home and my neighbours, a Serb, came who said he had

23 to leave. He was -- that was going -- with children form the village to

24 my mother's.

25 Q. This Serb person that came into -- into your home, did he mention

Page 941

1 that to you or to your family?

2 A. My family, she said.

3 Q. And what did you do after that?

4 A. I packed and went to the village, to my mother's.

5 Q. And how far away was this village?

6 A. It was far, about two and a half kilometres.

7 Q. And this was on the 7th of April?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You mentioned that the war broke out on the 8th of April, 1992.

10 So this advice to leave was one day beforehand; is that right?

11 A. It is.

12 Q. What did this Serb person actually say? Can you provide a bit

13 more detail about why you should leave?

14 A. He did not say anything. He said only, "Go to the village,"

15 myself and my wife and my two children to go to a safe place.

16 Q. And did you arrive at the village on the 7th?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And how long did you stay in that village for?

19 A. I stayed in the village until the 17th of April.

20 Q. And from the 7th to the 17th, what were you doing?

21 A. I was in the house with my mother and my wife and other refugees

22 who had also left Foca, and had come out to our houses because they

23 reckoned it would be safer there.

24 Q. Did you go to any other places whilst you were in this village

25 between the 7th and the 17th?

Page 942

1 A. Yes, because I went back to my flat every day to bring food which

2 was in the fridge, and I couldn't take it all at once, and clothes and

3 wardrobe.

4 Q. Did your wife ever go back to your flat with you on one occasion?

5 A. Yes, almost every time.

6 Q. And did anything happen to you and your wife on one occasion when

7 you were returning back to your apartment?

8 A. Yes, it was the last time that I went there. Shells began to fall

9 and four fell, two hit the water and two behind us so that we were all --

10 that sprayed with -- soaked with water and covered with dust from the

11 other two.

12 Q. What areas did you have to go through to leave your mother's house

13 to get to your apartment in Foca town? What neighbourhoods?

14 A. I went through Recica, below Ristajt [phoen], through Gornji

15 Gradac and I came to Donji Gradac. That's where my mother was.

16 Q. Over this ten-day period when you were going back and forth from

17 your mother's house to your own house, what was happening around you?

18 What was happening in these neighbourhoods? What did you see occur?

19 A. I saw there were troops around. As a matter of fact, they were

20 not a proper army. They were all civilians. Some had rifles, some had

21 another rifle, an old one. I don't know where they got them from.

22 Whether they bought them or whether somebody issued them with them, I

23 can't say.

24 Q. Do you know which troops they were?

25 A. Come, they were all locals. They were youngsters, 17, 18 years

Page 943

1 old. There were no regular troops there.

2 Q. Of the troops that you saw, do you know which ethnicity they

3 were? Were they Muslim or were they Serb or some other troops, or can you

4 not say?

5 A. Muslims.

6 Q. You were arrested on the 25th of April and taken to the KP Dom; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where were you arrested?

10 A. In Recica, in my apartment.

11 Q. What happened? Can you describe the arrest?

12 A. I came to the apartment to take my children's clothes and some

13 footwear, because there was some slight snow in April and the children had

14 torn their shoes as we escaped. I had barely entered the flat or hardly

15 laid my hands on any of those things when Zoran Vukovic arrived or

16 Matovic. They're two twin brothers. I don't know. I can never tell the

17 one from the other. Perhaps Dragan. He rang my bell and told me to come

18 out and I came out. I was wearing slippers. He told me that I had to go

19 make a statement in Focatrans.

20 I asked him to let me put on some proper shoes because I was

21 wearing plastic slippers, and he wouldn't let me, he said, "You'll be back

22 in no time." That's how I set off, in front of him.

23 In front of the Focatrans, on the road Gorazde-Foca, Foca-Gorazde,

24 there was a refrigerator truck which belonged to UPI, and it had an

25 inscription, "Greater Serbia." He told me to sit down there. And then an

Page 944

1 active policeman from Foca came, Vucetic, and another one who was selling

2 glasses, a reserve policeman. I know he was selling glasses and he was a

3 reserve policeman, but I don't know what his name was.

4 They put me in a Golf --

5 Q. Sorry, if I can just stop you there. Before you relate to the

6 Court about how you were put in a Golf, how many people arrived at the

7 apartment? You said Zoran Vukovic and then you mentioned a Matovic.

8 A. One came. But there were two twin brothers. Sorry, I don't know

9 if it was Zoran or Dragan. One of them. So there is a slight

10 misunderstanding, but the difference is in the names. Whether it's Zoran

11 or -- either Zoran or Dragan, and they are brothers of the first blood,

12 twins.

13 Q. You said the doorbell rang and one person came into the apartment;

14 is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that was Zoran or Dragan Vukovic; you're not sure.

17 A. No, I'm not, because they were two twin brothers and nobody

18 could ...

19 Q. Do you remember how Zoran Vukovic was dressed?

20 A. Blue uniform; reserve police.

21 Q. Apart from Zoran or Dragan Vukovic, were you the only other person

22 in the apartment?

23 A. I was alone. Only my wife and myself.

24 Q. How long were you in the apartment before you left it?

25 A. It could have been five, ten minutes. Not as much. I don't

Page 945

1 know.

2 Q. You were taken out of the apartment building, and where did you

3 go?

4 A. To Focatrans.

5 Q. How far away was that from your apartment?

6 A. (redacted)

7 Q. Did you walk there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who walked with you to Focatrans?

10 A. Either Zoran or Dragan, it was one of them. But there was only

11 one.

12 Q. When you got to Focatrans, what happened?

13 A. No, I didn't get to Focatrans, I was in front of it, where you go

14 into Focatrans or where you go on to the Foca-Gorazde road. There was a

15 refrigerator truck, UPI, and it said "Greater Serbia." And next to him

16 there was a guy whom I didn't know.

17 Q. You mentioned earlier that at this stage you got into a Golf car;

18 is that right?

19 A. Yes. Risto Vucetic came, and that bloke who worked for Optika, I

20 don't know, Slavko something. I don't know his name.

21 Q. How many people were in the car with you? Just those two?

22 A. Only two, and I was the third.

23 Q. What happened to Zoran or Dragan Vukovic?

24 A. They remained at the barricade, next to that refrigerator truck.

25 Q. Did you know Zoran and Dragan Vukovic from before this day?

Page 946

1 A. Yes. (redacted).

2 Q. Who did Zoran Vukovic work for, or did he work?

3 A. He worked for UNIS, for UNIS company. He worked for it.

4 Q. What type of company is that?

5 A. UNIS manufactured wire, tools.

6 Q. And Dragan Vukovic, what did he do?

7 A. One of those two, either Dragan or Zoran, one did work there, and

8 one took me away. But which one of the two, hard to say whether it was

9 really Zoran, because if it was Zoran, perhaps it wasn't Zoran. Perhaps

10 it was Dragan, perhaps it wasn't. But it was one of them. One of them

11 worked for UNIS and another one took me from my flat.

12 Q. Zoran and Dragan Vukovic, what ethnicity are they?

13 A. Serb ethnicity.

14 Q. The other two men that you mentioned who took you away in the Golf

15 car, what ethnicity were they?

16 A. Likewise, Serb ethnicity.

17 Q. Where did you go in the Golf car?

18 A. I went to the KP Dom, that is, the penitentiary before the war.

19 It served for that purpose, for convicts.

20 Q. Did you go inside the KP Dom?

21 A. I did. I entered the KP Dom, and at the gate there was a superior

22 officer, an active-duty officer, called Cancar. I don't know his first

23 name. He turned me over, that is, Risto turned me over -- that is, Risto

24 Ivanovic -- no, Risto Vucetic turned me over to him, and he came to me and

25 told me to put my arms up next to the wall, and I did. He asked me if I

Page 947

1 had anything on me; I said I had nothing. He frisked me and sent me into

2 the compound.

3 Q. If I can stop you there.

4 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, that's probably a good time to stop for

5 the day.

6 JUDGE HUNT: At 9.30 in the morning.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of

9 November, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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