1 Wednesday, 17
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS FWS-182 [Resumed]
12 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]
13 Q. Good morning, Witness.
14 JUDGE HUNT: His microphone is obviously not on. His microphones
15 are now on.
16 Are you able to hear through the earphones, usher?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do hear it, but there are
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
20 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me now?
21 A. Yes, now I can hear very well.
22 Q. Witness, yesterday you described the beatings that you heard over
23 a couple of months. When you heard these beatings, how long did they last
25 A. Well, it could well last between half an hour to an hour,
1 sometimes longer.
2 Q. And when the beatings stopped, could you hear anything else, or
3 did anything happen?
4 A. Yes, we heard that because we followed it. And after that, we
5 would always hear a car engine being switched on and that car leaving, and
6 at some point we would think as if we'd heard -- as if I've heard that
7 something was being thrown into water, or that was the assumption in the
8 view of the time elapsed between the ignition of the engine and the place
9 on the bridge that I know and from which something -- people could be
10 thrown into the Drina.
11 Q. And how was the noise level, the general noise level in the KP Dom
12 or around the KP Dom at night when you heard that? Could you describe it?
13 A. Well, it was by and large in the evening hours, that is after nine
14 or ten, that is, 21 or 2200. It was a quiet night. One could hear
15 everything, even a fly fly by or a cat walk by. I think one could
16 recognise it, so that we could easily identify sounds. I said sounds of a
18 Q. What about the sounds or the noise of the river? Is the river
19 loud? Can you hear the river very loud?
20 A. Well, right now I don't remember, but from the river you hear, you
21 know, the sound of something falling into the river, that kind of a sound.
22 Q. Did you ever hear shots in relation to the beatings?
23 A. It was once they heard shots in the evening. On one occasion I
24 heard shots in the evening.
25 Q. Can you describe when you heard the shots? Was it after the
1 beating had stopped, or was it while you still heard beating sounds?
2 A. When everything quieted down in those rooms where they were
3 beaten, after that. It was after that that I heard shots on one occasion,
4 and I heard beatings several times.
5 Q. And do you recall which detainees had been taken on that occasion
6 when you heard the beating -- the sound, the shots?
7 A. I don't remember.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
9 show the witness the Schedule C, that is, P55.
10 Q. Witness, yesterday you have already mentioned several detainees
11 you remembered in particular. Would you please now go with me through
12 this list in front of you and tell us whom of these detainees you knew and
13 what happened to them. Do you know number one, Alija Altoka?
14 A. The name does ring a bell, Alija, but I can't recall the features
15 of the man. I can't remember the face. I don't remember what he looked
17 Q. And the second one, Salem Bico, do you --
18 A. I knew him. I knew Salem Bico.
19 Q. And did you see him in the, in the KP Dom?
20 A. Yes, I did see him in KP Dom.
21 Q. What happened to him? Did you see anything in particular?
22 A. No, nothing particular. I know he was there, and I know he never
23 came back.
24 Q. Was he taken out for these sort of beatings you saw, you have
25 described to us, or did he disappear otherwise?
1 A. I don't know really.
2 Q. And the person number 3, Abdurahman Cankusic, do you know who that
4 A. I do not know him personally, but his name I know. And I know
5 that he was in the KP Dom, but I know nothing personally.
6 Q. The next person, number 4, Refik?
7 A. Same thing as Abdurahman.
8 Q. Number 5?
9 A. I knew him.
10 Q. Did you see him in the KP Dom and can you tell us what happened to
12 A. I saw him in the KP Dom and I do not know what happened to him.
13 Q. And Juso Dzamalija, person number 6?
14 A. I did not know him personally, but I did hear that he hanged
15 himself, Juso Dzamalija, that he hanged himself. We heard it while in the
16 KP Dom.
17 Q. Number 7, did you know him personally and can you tell us what
18 happened to him?
19 A. I knew Kemal Dzelilovic and I saw him in the KP Dom. I don't know
20 what happened to him.
21 Q. And the next person, number 8, Ramo Dzendusic?
22 A. I knew him too, but again I don't know what happened to him.
23 Q. Number 9, Adil Granov?
24 A. I knew Adil Granov too.
25 Q. Can you tell us what happened to him? Did you see anything about
2 A. No, I did not, but I heard both about him, about the previous one,
3 about Adil, that they were beaten overnight and they disappeared.
4 Q. Who told you that? How did you hear it? From other detainees?
5 A. From other detainees because we had a system of communication; we
6 could exchange information with other rooms. These were not in my room,
7 so that I cannot really say anything. I cannot say that I saw them.
8 Q. You've already mentioned number 10, Nail Hodzic. If you yourself
9 look through the list, can you pick from the list people who were in your
10 room and that you saw what happened to them?
11 A. I've already mentioned Zulfo Veiz, 29, and Enes Uzunovic. Adil
12 Krajein was also in my room.
13 Q. That's number 14. What did you see happen to him?
14 A. Only when they took him out. They only took out Adil Krajein. He
15 walked on his own two feet, but he never came back.
16 Q. When he was taken, did you hear the sounds of beating afterwards?
17 Is he one of those who was taken out for beatings?
18 A. I cannot say exactly whether he was beaten. No, I can't. I can't
19 really say because I did not see it, I did not hear, but he did not return
20 to the room.
21 Q. And was he taken in that period of beatings or was he taken later?
22 A. During that period, yes.
23 Q. Was there anyone else that we have not yet mentioned yesterday
24 from the list where you actually saw or heard something?
25 A. I noticed, or rather I saw, when Nail Hodzic and three others whom
1 I did not know -- I do not know those three. It could be one of those,
2 but I simply do not know them. Three other men with Nail Hodzic went and
3 were beaten, but I do not know who they were.
4 Q. And anyone else from the list, from your room, that you see or are
5 these the people?
6 A. No. That's all.
7 Q. Thank you. You can put the list aside.
8 You have already mentioned that some detainees were released and
9 others were exchanged. How many -- can you estimate how many detainees
10 were exchanged, and did you actually see them later on, meet them
12 A. What I learned subsequently, that is, after I was released, I
13 subsequently learned that about 300, 350 people disappeared. I saw very
14 few people again, that is, those who were reportedly exchanged. Some may
15 have been.
16 Q. Yesterday you mentioned already this person Halid Konjo and you
17 said that he was exchanged and that he then disappeared. Do you recall,
18 when he was taken from the KP Dom, was he taken alone or in a group?
19 A. He was taken with a group of people. I think it was September or
20 October. He was not in my room. But at that time we were already freer,
21 we could communicate better. And he went with a group to allegedly pick
22 plums. I wanted also to volunteer to go there, but I was in a different
23 room, and the guard would not allow me to go there because I wasn't
24 envisaged for that job. And from my room, and I was in room 21 at the
25 time, some 15 to 20 young men left and did not come back.
1 Q. Did guards ever mention the fate of these detainees, or maybe
2 someone else?
3 A. On one occasion, to a guard, Vlatko Pljevaljcic -- yes,
4 Pljevaljcic, he called me out in the evening at 11.00 to look at some
5 gadget that he had. And I asked him, "Well, where are those people? Why
6 aren't they coming back?" And they told me that they had gone to Bileca.
7 Q. Anyone else mention something in relation to this particular group
8 of let's call them plum pickers?
9 A. Once investigator Koprivica wanted to talk to me because I had
10 asked to be received by him, and I asked him too what had happened with
11 those men who had left, and his only answer was, "Don't ask me that."
12 Q. Were you yourself ever taken for an exchange and then returned to
13 the KP Dom?
14 A. Yes. In July we were taken for exchange to a place called
15 Cajnice, and we were about 25 or something like that.
16 Q. Yes, please.
17 A. And they came to fetch us, and we left in a lorry.
18 Q. Who selected you, your group of people? Who of the prison staff
19 was present?
20 A. It was the investigator Koprivica, and he told me that he had
21 picked me out. And then judging by the structure of those who left, it
22 seemed that they had all been picked out, selected. One of the colleagues
23 who was with me told me that he had been picked out by Warden Krnojelac.
24 Q. Who? Who did tell you? Do you know the name of this person?
25 A. A prison -- an inmate. He is on the list of the protected ones,
1 so I would rather not mention.
2 Q. Can you tell the number of this person, if you have the number of
3 this person?
4 A. I don't see him here. I don't see him here, but I do think -- I'm
5 afraid that this might be a mistake. I can write it down, if you want to.
6 Q. Yes, please.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can the witness have a sheet of paper to
8 write the name.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps you'd better have a look at it.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I saw it.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps you'd better have a look at it so you see the
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I saw the name.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Is there a number?
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, there is, but I don't have the number
16 right now. I would have to check. Your Honour, I think that's actually
17 the witness we want to summons. That is the witness.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, he has a number.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, he is not our witness yet. He doesn't
20 have a number, I think.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's something we can give him right now.
22 This is the one that both parties want to call?
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I think so.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Well, what's the next number in the FWS series, or
25 could we give him some initials?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think it would be best to give him
3 JUDGE HUNT: Well, his pseudonym will be RJ, so Witness RJ.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE HUNT: This document we will make an exhibit, P407, and it
6 will be under seal.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
8 Q. Witness, you mentioned you have written down the name of this
9 person that we will call now RJ, and would you please tell us what he told
10 you and when did he tell you?
11 A. It was when we had reached the first stop near Cajnice, a school
12 there, and when we looked around, we saw that, again, this was a company
13 which had been picked out individually; it wasn't just random. And that
14 is why the investigator Koprivica who saw me off and say good-bye, and
15 then there were some other friends of mine, unfortunately I have to say
16 that they are gone, they're missing. There was (redacted), a
17 painter. There was Karabegovic, Pasovic. We were all -- we all
18 socialised with investigator Koprivica, and we assumed that he had already
19 sent them, like me, for exchange.
20 But in addition to RJ, there were those we guessed that had been
21 picked out for exchange by Warden Krnojelac; that is, we talked among
22 ourselves and we made various assumptions.
23 Q. And did Witness --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
1 Q. And did Mr. RJ tell you that it was his assumption, or did he even
2 know that Mr. Krnojelac had selected him?
3 A. RJ was mentioned, his name came up on various occasions while in
4 the KP Dom because Warden Krnojelac received him right before the
5 exchange. He again went to see Warden Krnojelac.
6 Q. What I would like to know from you is, did Mr. RJ himself tell you
7 that it was his assumption, or was it just you and the other detainees'
9 A. From RJ himself.
10 Q. You mentioned that RJ was not the only one that you thought
11 Mr. Krnojelac had picked for this exchange. How many did he -- what was
12 the assumption in relation to that? Who else?
13 A. I can mention also FWS-86. I can also mention yet another one,
14 but from what I know, the same holds true of him as of RJ, and he was also
15 with us when we went for that exchange.
16 Q. Yes. And when you were in Cajnice, did other people from other
17 places when in Foca arrive there as well for the exchange?
18 A. When we arrived in Cajnice, we were told that there were not
19 enough people and that they were looking for more people to be exchanged,
20 and then we spent the night there, waiting for others to come.
21 In that other group there were a couple of elderly men, mostly
22 women, young women and women of a certain age. There could have been some
23 15 of them. And there were some who seemed to have been wounded who
24 needed medical care, and I saw a doctor come and extend aid to them. So
25 that we were up to 40, perhaps 45 in Cajnice.
1 Q. These other persons, these women and elderly, where did they come
2 from; do you know?
3 A. Yes. We were together in that room, and they told us what they
4 had gone through. They had been in a different camp which was called --
5 female, a women's camp in Foca in the building of Partizan, and they told
6 us they had gone through all sorts of things: beatings, rape, robbery, all
7 sorts of torture.
8 Q. And what happened in Cajnice? Why were you not exchanged?
9 A. We had two bits of news. They tried it on two occasions because
10 we were twice in Cajnice and they twice tried. Once they said that
11 allegedly ours, in inverted commas, that is, Bosniaks do not want us, that
12 they want flour and sugar rather than us. And the second piece of news,
13 and we were told that by the one who headed that exchange, and they called
14 him Serdar. He had a cockade, a big fur cap, a long beard, and I think he
15 was under the influence of drugs, but I'm not sure. And he said, "Well,
16 those others have nobody to exchange for because they're all out because
17 ours had killed them all."
18 And he said that nobody should hurt us, because we were afraid
19 that they might kill us, too, and we were waiting there to see what would
20 happen. We hoped that they might let us go through Pljevlja, through the
21 good offices of some authorities in Cajnice, but they failed to do that.
22 And about that time, a BBC team arrived and they took down our names, and
23 then I remember they really helped us a great deal in this way. But they
24 took us back to Foca because the thing failed, and we were all taken back
25 to Foca.
1 Q. All groups, the detainees from KP Dom and the women and elderly?
2 A. Only men.
3 Q. And when you returned to the KP Dom, who received you there?
4 A. We were received by Gagovic, I can't remember now whether his
5 first name was Radislav or Rade. Something like that at any rate.
6 Gagovic entered the bus and said to us that we had to go back,
7 that we had to get all our things out again, all the stuff we had taken
8 from Cajnice - we had also received something in Cajnice - and that we'd
9 have to wait for the next exchange. Rade Gagovic received us. He's the
10 person I saw.
11 Q. And what position did he have in the KP Dom?
12 A. On one occasion, Mitar Rasovic, who was commander of the guards,
13 and Gagovic entered our room, Room 15, and Mitar introduced Gagovic as the
14 deputy warden of the KP Dom.
15 Q. Did you ever meet this Mr. Gagovic again that you could see what
16 his position was with your own eyes?
17 A. I saw him a few times. I saw him wearing civilian clothes then
18 when he entered our room, but I also saw him sometimes wearing things like
19 commando clothes, something like that, but I didn't have much contact with
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we are just checking the list.
22 Maybe my colleagues can find out the person on the list.
23 JUDGE HUNT: You mean -- the name has already been given.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I just wanted to give you the number,
25 and it's the number 79 on P3. You see Rade Gagovic.
1 Q. Do you know how old Mr. Gagovic was, approximately?
2 A. A young-ish man, say 30.
3 Q. Thank you. We do not need to go into details of labour done in
4 the KP Dom. My question would only be: Did you yourself have to work in
5 the KP Dom?
6 A. Well, had to if I was told to. I remember at first I went to Brod
7 Na Drini to unload flour. I tried to lift a sack of flour. I couldn't.
8 I fell. I almost fainted altogether. A friend was there, a former friend
9 of mine, who was in charge, was there, a former friend of mine, a Serb.
10 He let me go. They returned me. I didn't have to unload these sacks.
11 Then they let me do something else: clean up in the kitchen. I couldn't
12 even do that anymore. Later on, when I recovered a bit, I cleaned the
13 compound. At some points I myself asked to work, because those who went
14 out to work would get an additional slice of bread. That's why many of us
15 asked to work, so that we would get this extra slice of bread. That's why
16 I had also asked to work - to sweep, to carry baskets, whatever I could do
17 - and that is how I sometimes got an extra slice of bread.
18 Q. And do you know a person Murat Islambasic, and could you tell us
19 what work he did?
20 A. I know that person. He was a driver. They would take him out on
21 his own and return him again on his own. He drove a truck for the KP Dom.
22 Q. And do you know -- did you ever speak to him? Was he, for
23 instance, in your room, and did he tell you where he drove the truck?
24 A. We were together in room 21. We slept on two adjacent beds. He
25 didn't want to talk then. He didn't want to say where he went, what he
1 did. At one moment, though, he started limping on purpose, because he
2 wanted to get away from that job. He wanted to dodge it all together. He
3 told me he was bluffing. He even started walking with a crutch,
4 whatever. When we were both released, then he told me where he was taken
5 and what he had to drive. He drove ammunition. He was on the first truck
6 so that there would not be ambushes in terms of mines, whatever. He went
7 to Kalinovik, Preljuca.
8 Q. You have already mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden of
9 the KP Dom during your time of detention. Who was the pre-war warden?
10 A. Radojica Tesovic.
11 Q. And why was the former warden replaced? Do you know that?
12 A. I assume since Mr. Tesovic, in all these pre-election activities,
13 remained on the list of the SDP - that is to say, he did not go for the
14 SDS - and I don't think he could hold any position.
15 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness please speak into the
17 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please come closer to the microphone
18 again. The interpreters are having difficulty hearing you.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
20 Q. Mr. Tesovic, did he continue to work in the KP Dom during your
22 A. I saw him at the KP Dom. I think he was in charge of one unit,
23 the furniture factory. It was then called Drina. He was in charge of
24 that unit.
25 Q. You have already mentioned Mr. Gagovic. What function did
1 Mr. Todovic have?
2 A. I don't know officially what his position was, but he was like our
3 boss, to all the detainees and to all the guards, it seemed to me. He was
4 in contact with us and with the guards. He assigned people to do things.
5 He told everyone what they had to do and he could also send people to
6 solitary confinement straight away. He would see them in the compound and
7 send them straight off to an isolation cell. A few of my colleagues were
8 sent off that way. It seems to me that he had some kind of executive
10 Q. When you saw him in the KP Dom, what was he wearing?
11 A. I really can't remember what he had the first time, but he wore
12 civilian clothes. He wore an SMB uniform, he wore camouflage uniforms, he
13 wore blue uniforms, but civilian clothes mostly.
14 Q. Who was the commander of the guards?
15 A. The commander was Mitar Rasevic, I think.
16 Q. And when you saw him in the KP Dom, what did he wear?
17 A. A uniform, a blue police uniform, the kind that was worn by the
18 police beforehand. I know that before, Mitar was also commander of the
19 police guards in the prison. When I say "beforehand," I'm referring to
20 the pre-war period.
21 Q. The guards, were they also the former prison guards?
22 A. The ones I knew personally and the ones I saw down there, I know
23 for myself about them, but judging -- according to what I heard later,
24 everybody seemed to have been a prison guard before as well.
25 Q. And what did the prison guards wear? What kind of clothing?
1 A. They wore blue. Later on it became fashionable to wear
2 camouflage, but they mostly wore blue uniforms. And there were those,
3 though, who wore these camouflage uniforms.
4 Q. These camouflage uniforms that you saw on the guards, were they
5 the blue camouflage of the police or were they camouflage of the military
7 A. Of the military forces. They were green.
8 Q. Those persons you just mentioned - Todovic, Rasevic and the
9 guards - how did they treat the detainees? How did they behave towards
11 A. I already said about Todovic, so there's no need to repeat that.
12 Not only towards me, but towards everyone. I'll give an example. Once
13 there was a man from my room. His name was Sandal. He was also ill. I
14 really can't remember his first name now. He asked Savo directly. Savo
15 was passing by the stairs and I was there. I was cleaning. And he said,
16 "Neighbour, can you help me? Can't you see I'm dying?" He was an
17 elderly man. They were neighbours. They were from the same village,
18 allegedly. That's what he told me later. He only looked at him and said,
19 "Back to the room." He made him go back to the room. This man, Sandal,
20 died soon after that at the KP Dom. That can be said about Savo Todovic.
21 Q. When did this incident occur? Do you recall that?
22 A. Sometime around the beginning of 1993, the beginning of 1993.
23 Q. And you have not yet mentioned: How did the guards treat the
25 A. From one case to another, it varied. There were different
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 guards. Some were bad, others were less bad. I've had experience with
2 the ones who were bad and the ones who were less bad. Some were not very
3 forthcoming. They didn't even want to listen. They didn't even want to
4 receive any requests that we would give in order to be taken further.
5 Some forced people to go to an isolation cell. Well, not me. But if they
6 would catch them getting into the line again to get an extra slice of
7 bread, they would be sent to an isolation cell invariably.
8 Obrenovic, this man, was sent to an isolation cell by a guard
9 once. Once when we were getting out of the dining room, this one detainee
10 took a walnut. It was a young walnut. And this Obrenovic sent him to an
11 isolation cell because of that walnut. That's what I can say about
13 Then there was this Zoran Matovic. From the very outset, he
14 carried around something like a baseball bat. The other prisoners said
15 that he used it for beating too.
16 I heard about Burilo too. He did not beat me, but that he beat
17 just about everybody else. There were those who mistreated people
19 Q. In which way?
20 A. Well, he would come and say, "You balija," and other things. I
21 wouldn't mention that. You know, referring to their mothers and sisters,
22 next of kin. "You won't get out of here. You don't belong here." I
23 mean, they were referring to Foca. And then they were saying that they
24 wouldn't get out of the KP Dom. Jovo Savic figured prominently in this
25 respect. There were also those who would help, but they were exceptions.
1 Q. Until when was Mr. Krnojelac the warden of the KP Dom? When was
2 he replaced?
3 A. I think in mid-1993.
4 Q. And when he was replaced, did the conditions in the KP Dom
5 change? Did the behaviour of the guards and Mr. Todovic change?
6 A. At that time the International Red Cross also came on several
7 occasions, so we got toothpaste, toothbrushes for them, means for hygiene,
8 sometimes even cigarettes, underwear so that we could change. And that's
9 around the time when there was this change of wardens too. Then we had
10 medical care, regular medical care. The food got much better. I mean,
11 much better; it was a bit heavier, greasier, so to speak. There was more
12 bread. We could take baths once or twice in a month. Once. Then our bed
13 linen was changed. They washed our bed linen. So the difference was
14 drastic until mid-1993 and after mid-1993. I personally experienced
15 something. I was sent for medical examinations to the local hospital, and
16 I was actually taken there and these medical examinations were carried
18 Q. Was that after Mr. Krnojelac was replaced that you went to the
20 A. Yes, because I know that warden Sekulovic helped me go there, the
21 one who was Mr. Krnojelac's successor.
22 Q. And the behaviour of the guards and Mr. Todovic, did it change
23 after Mr. Sekulovic arrived?
24 A. They locked us up less in rooms then. We even could go for a
25 walk. We weren't locked up in the rooms all the time. The behaviour of
1 the guards changed, and how. Todovic was far more reserved. He didn't
2 show up very much.
3 Q. And the guards, you said the behaviour changed. In which way?
4 What became different?
5 A. They started talking to us. They were forthcoming. Even if we
6 did something that was irregular, they let it be. You could even trade
7 with them then, with the guards.
8 Q. You said that you were detained until August 1994. How could you
9 leave the KP Dom? How did that come about?
10 A. They asked me to get ready and to come to the gate. A guard came
11 to fetch me. I came to the gate. And then I saw warden Sekulovic. He
12 saw me off. He said, "I wish you the best of luck. If it succeeds, it
13 will succeed." That's how he put it.
14 Before that -- I mean it was during those days that I was supposed
15 to undergo surgery at our hospital. I'm going to tell you one more
16 thing. A man in my room, Sefko Kubat, died from the same illness. He was
17 operated on, but I agreed to this surgery nevertheless. I already
18 mentioned this.
19 Sekulovic, through a prisoner, FWS-73, who went to his apartment
20 to repair something for him, said that the warden felt sorry for me.
21 Sekulovic knew me. I didn't know him, to tell you the truth. And he said
22 that he felt sorry for me. He said that he saw that I was dying, because
23 I simply couldn't recover from the very outset. And then he said, "We'll
24 try to do something with him," and that's how I was sent for this
25 exchange, probably thanks to warden Sekulovic.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions that the
2 Prosecution has.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination. Mr. Vasic?
4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to wish the witness a
7 good morning and to introduce myself. I'm Miroslav Vasic, attorney at
8 law, one of the Defence counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac.
9 My first question would relate to the statements that you gave to
10 the investigator of the OTP. Did you give your first statement to the
11 investigator of the OTP on the 17th of August, the 18th of August, the 5th
12 of September, 1997?
13 A. I cannot recall the dates.
14 Q. Did you give two statements to the investigator of the
16 A. I don't know. On two or three occasions. I can't remember now.
17 Q. After making these statements, did you read them and sign them?
18 A. In Sarajevo when I finished, I read something. I glanced at it,
19 but I didn't read it in detail.
20 Q. Did you sign every page of these statements?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. Thank you. On the 23rd of August, 1994, did you give a statement
23 at the Security Centre in Sarajevo?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you read and sign this statement?
1 A. I guess I did.
2 Q. Thank you. Did you talk to a journalist, whose name I'll give you
3 presently, that is, (redacted)
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did he publish this interview (redacted)
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to read part of your statement to the
9 investigator of the OTP, and you will tell me whether --
10 JUDGE HUNT: Just before you do that, did that interview identify
11 this witness by name?
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] You mean the interview with the
13 investigator of the OTP? Oh, the newspapers you mean, the newspapers?
14 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I only have an excerpt from this
16 newspaper that the Prosecutor gave me. His name is not mentioned, but it
17 is possible that he was identified in the text. I don't know really.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I think we'd better
19 redact the reference to the paper. It would be the clearest
20 identification of the witness.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, that's true.
22 JUDGE HUNT: All right, thank you.
23 I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Vasic, but it seemed to me a rather
24 vital issue on protective measures.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 In order to facilitate matters for the interpreters, this is the
2 part of the statement from the 30th of May. On page 4, it is the last
3 paragraph, and on page 5, the first two paragraphs.
4 Q. Did you state the following to the investigators of the OTP:
5 "I knew that Savo Todovic was the real boss in the KP Dom. I
6 knew him before the war only by sight and knew he was employed at the KP
7 Dom as some kind of clerk. During the time I was detained there, he was
8 in charge of the prisoners. He decided who was to be taken to which
9 room. I don't know what his official title or position was, but everybody
10 called him the boss. Even the guards addressed him so. As far as I can
11 remember, he was present at the KP Dom all the time, even at night.
12 "Todovic had dark hair and was balding. At first he had a short
13 beard and later on a long one. He was of medium height and very well
14 built. He sometimes wore civilian clothes and sometimes an SMB uniform.
15 Later, he wore a camouflage uniform.
16 "Savo Todovic once ordered me to go to a solitary confinement
17 cell. I was there for 15 days because I had exchanged goods with the
18 other prisoners. This was only an excuse because everybody did that.
19 While there, Todovic asked me to give a statement admitting to something,
20 which I would not do. He told me I would die in the cell."
21 Is that what you stated to the investigator of the OTP?
22 A. All of it is correct except for one word, that "I" came to the
23 conclusion that he was the real boss. I mean, I could not know that.
24 Q. But did you say that he was the real boss?
25 A. Well, that is how we saw him. We were afraid of him.
1 Q. I'm asking you this because in the English text, we also have the
2 words "real boss." So did you say that, that you really were afraid -- it
3 doesn't say you were really afraid of him and that is how you perceived
5 A. Well, I cannot know what Savo Todovic was.
6 Q. But that is your statement?
7 A. That is how I saw him.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. I think the time has come to say
10 this to the witness.
11 You must remember, sir, that you, both you and Mr. Vasic are
12 speaking the same language. The interpreters have to translate the
13 question and the answer, so would you please pause before the answer to
14 enable them to catch up. Thank you.
15 A. Thank you.
16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Now I'd like to go back to a part of your statement which deals
18 with events in 1991. Did you tell the Tribunal, its investigators, that
19 as of 1991, both Serbs and Muslims began to arm themselves?
20 A. I did say that, yes.
21 Q. Did you also say to the Tribunal's investigator that the Serbs
22 were doing it through the SDS, and Muslims through the SDA?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me, is -- are you familiar with the
25 name of Mr. Sahinpasic, called Saja?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Are you aware that when the war ended, he said for the press and
3 for television that he was the one who had armed the Muslim people in
5 A. Yes, I heard those stories.
6 Q. Thank you. In your statement you said that on the 7th of April,
7 exchange of fire began. You said that Serb forces were firing from one
8 side on Sukovac and Siste. Did you tell the Tribunal's investigator that
9 from Sukovac and Siste, the Muslims returned the fire?
10 A. I really can't remember because I could not, I could not see.
11 What I saw was really shells flying in that direction, but I also learnt
12 that the other side returned the fire.
13 Q. Thank you. Did you also say that it was a bus driver who told you
14 that the Muslim artillery was on one side and the Serb artillery on the
16 A. Yes. As I was coming back from Sarajevo, yes, there was this
17 driver who said that it was already public. And he said that the Serb
18 positions are in Zabrana, and that the Muslim positions are at Siste.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, the gentleman that you are mentioning now, this
20 Bajo, what ethnicity is he?
21 A. I don't know, but I guess he's a Serb or possibly a Montenegrin.
22 Q. Could you tell us who were the most prominent figures in the SDA
23 and SDS in Foca prior to the conflict?
24 A. Well, I can, yes, because I knew a number of them personally. Do
25 you want names?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Yes, please.
2 A. Well, to begin with, Miro Stanic. I knew him personally, and I
3 met him on various occasions. He was then the president of the SDS. I
4 knew Mr. Radojica Mladenovic. Mr. Petko Cancar, I knew him, too, and I
5 knew many others.
6 Q. And in the SDA?
7 A. Yes, I knew them, too.
8 Q. Could you perhaps give us a name?
9 A. I knew Taib Lojo. He died. He was the president of the SDA. I
10 knew Sahinpasic and a number of others.
11 Q. And from this list, can you help me?
12 A. Well, there should be a name for me to say something because I
13 cannot give out the name.
14 Q. But is he under a number?
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Are you meaning the exhibit -- I'm sorry, the
17 annexure C to the indictment? I've forgotten the exhibit number. Is that
18 the list you want him to consult?
19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The list of protected witnesses which
20 were shown to the witness with the numbers for witnesses, that is it.
21 Thank you, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE HUNT: The witness himself has pointed out he can't use
23 their names, but you're satisfied if he goes to that list and refers to
24 the numbers? There are only three on his list.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes. The witness said they were not
1 the persons under those numbers, and it's none of those on that list.
2 Thank you, Your Honours.
3 A. May I explain? One witness has already testified here in The
4 Hague, and I'd like to mention him. Should I?
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, then I would like to
6 suggest that the witness writes down the name of that witness so that then
7 we can identify him by the number.
8 JUDGE HUNT: That would be a good idea. We need some more paper
9 for the witness, please.
10 We'd better see whether we have got an FWS number for that; if
11 not, we'll give him a new pseudonym.
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, FWS-111, if I'm correct.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Is there a consolidated list of all these FWS numbers
16 that we could perhaps have access to, not right now, but at some stage?
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: You have the list in the trial binder. It
18 should be in the first trial binder, there's a complete list.
19 JUDGE HUNT: I remember that at the previous trial; I hadn't seen
20 it here. I'll look for it. Thank you.
21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Q. In your statement here, you said what the SDS thought and pursued
23 regarding the homogenisation of people. Did the SDA pursue the same kind
24 of policy?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You told us which were the objectives of the SDS. And what were
2 the SDA objectives at that time, on the eve of the conflict?
3 A. As I followed -- as I covered an election rally of the SDA, I mean
4 officially I did it, officially covered it, at the -- I learned from the
5 requests of the listeners that they were asking for "their Bosnia" or
6 something, I don't know. But the then president of the SDA,
7 Mr. Izetbegovic, said that that was not possible, that it was not
8 possible, that they wanted a joined democratic state of
10 Q. Have you finished?
11 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nods.
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. And do you remember if after what you have just told us that
14 Mr. Izetbegovic had said, that he added the words -- the word
16 A. I remember. "Unfortunately not right now. Unfortunately, but
17 that is not possible, that what is possible is only a democratic and
18 joined state of Bosnia."
19 Q. Thank you. You said that you heard on the radio how the JNA
20 members and paramilitaries were entering Visegrad, Zvornik, or had entered
21 Visegrad and Zvornik. Was that before Mr. Murat Sabanovic wanted to blow
22 up the dam in Visegrad or after that?
23 A. Can't remember, really.
24 Q. Because this was in the media too.
25 A. Yes. I listened. I heard about that, but I just can't remember.
1 Q. You said that on the eve of the armed conflicts a division, a rift
2 took place between the Muslims and Serbs in Foca and they even began to
3 patronise different coffee pubs. Could you tell us which were the coffee
4 bars which were frequented by Muslims, if you know?
5 A. Unfortunately, I only patronised about four coffee bars. Perhaps
6 I would drop by some others, but rarely. And for instance, I can tell you
7 where I went. Amadeus was a multi-ethnic coffee pub. Its owner was a
8 democratic. D-Mol was also a reformist place, because it was jointly
9 owned by Serbs and Muslims, and so people there were mixed again. And as
10 for others, I really did not patronise them often. I don't know their
12 Q. Do you know of a restaurant run by Mr. Grujicic? Do you know
13 anything about that?
14 A. Yes. I was there often. It was called Dzam [phoen].
15 Q. And what would you call it?
16 A. A Serb, a Serb restaurant.
17 Q. Thank you. Excuse me. It was at that time when the split took
18 place, and could you tell us where did the Muslims go?
19 A. I think they went to a place called Nocturno, which is somewhere
20 in Gornje Polje, Nocturno. I've just remembered another Serb place. It
21 was called La Linea, and that was where only -- or Linea. It was
22 patronised only by Serbs.
23 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to go back to the time when you left Foca
24 temporarily and went to Zubovici. You said that you had a weapon. Did
25 you take it along when you went to Zubovici?
1 A. I did.
2 Q. Did you have it when you were arrested?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Thank you. You told us here that when you arrived in KP Dom you
5 were interviewed by investigator Koprivica the very next day.
6 A. Not the very next day.
7 Q. And so when were you interrogated?
8 A. Well, it could have been perhaps a week later.
9 Q. Did anyone else attend that interrogation except Mr. Koprivica?
10 A. My father.
11 Q. And anybody else?
12 A. Only the three of us.
13 Q. Do you remember that in your statement to the public security
14 centre in Sarajevo you said that on that occasion there was also present
15 somebody called Petko Gasevic?
16 A. I remember Petko Gasevic, but he had only brought a drink for my
17 father and left immediately.
18 Q. And do you know what is he?
19 A. I know him only by sight.
20 Q. Did he wear a uniform on that occasion?
21 A. I can't remember.
22 Q. Was he a military man?
23 A. I can't really tell you anything about Petko Gasevic.
24 Q. Thank you. Here you testified that the investigator Koprivica did
25 not ask you anything, that he merely signed a guarantee saying that he
1 vouched for you.
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Thank you. In the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor and
4 the Security Centre in Sarajevo, you said that you were asked if you were
5 a member of a political party, if you had a weapon, your whereabouts
6 during the conflict. Were you asked that by that Koprivica? Is that
8 A. Well, that was a general question, but Koprivica knew that I was
9 not a member of the party, he knew that I was not armed, that I had never
10 fired a single shot, so he never asked me those things.
11 Q. But what you said then to the Prosecutor's investigator, was that
12 account by general statement? Because it says here that you stated that
13 you were interrogated and your father not, in general.
14 A. Well, my father had arrived before me. I said so. And he
15 interrogated my father. And when my father answered, he said, "I know
16 everything, and you don't have to answer any questions," so that he did
17 not ask me any questions.
18 Q. But did your father then tell you that he asked him questions
19 about all this?
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear the answer
21 because the witness overlapped with the Prosecutor -- with the question.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, we've lost the answer there because your
23 question came in on top of it. Did you hear the answer yourself? The
24 question was: Did your father then tell you that he asked him questions
25 about all this? Did you hear what the answer was?
1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I did, yes, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE HUNT: What was it?
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The answer is: We did not discuss it.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Take care, please. Do not weigh in with your next
5 question until the interpreters have caught up.
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.
7 Q. And in the public security station, did you say that Muslims were
8 interrogated also by the military police?
9 A. I can't remember. It escapes me now.
10 Q. But did you say something along those lines to the journalist
11 Midhat Plivcic?
12 A. I can't remember that either.
13 Q. Then I'd like to read out to you only one sentence from this text
14 in the media: "Until August 1992, the detained prisoners were also
15 interrogated by members of the Foca military police." Evidently, after
16 they broke into the SDA offices, they found there the list of all the SDA
17 members in Foca and all the activists.
18 A. I really can't remember that.
19 Q. Do you remember how in the same article you said that you were
20 interrogated by the former police inspectors in Foca?
21 A. I remember that, yes.
22 Q. Thank you. You said here, when my learned friend asked you
23 whether you had been interrogated by military or police investigators, you
24 answered that it was the policemen who interrogated you. How did you come
25 to that conclusion, that they did not come from the army but from the
2 A. Because I knew Koprivica, because I knew Vladicic, I knew Starovic
3 too. I didn't know what his position was. And they all worked for the
4 Foca police before the war.
5 Q. Are you aware that one of them worked for the SDK, for the public
6 auditing office, not for the police?
7 A. I said that I knew about two of them, so it could have been
8 Starovic who worked perhaps for the SDK.
9 Q. But here in this article you used the word "former policemen."
10 Does this mean that they had been transferred to some other formations,
11 according to you?
12 A. Because I do not know what office they held at that time. I knew
13 that they were policemen before.
14 Q. But does that mean that one could conclude they were military
15 police investigators and the -- because you say that you could not draw
16 any conclusion from their clothes, you did not know what their new status
17 was, so perhaps there is this possibility as well.
18 A. Well, it's not much of a possibility.
19 Q. Yes, but it's possible.
20 A. That's what you say.
21 Q. But it is possible, even if not very likely?
22 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know where this is heading, Mr. Vasic. It
23 doesn't seem to be helping us very much. The question is not whether it's
24 possible. Anything is possible. If there's something relating to an
25 issue which has to be proved, the question is whether it is proved beyond
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 reasonable doubt, which raises an issue of a reasonable possibility being
2 to the contrary. But I don't really think that you're going to get
3 anywhere by arguing this with the witness.
4 That seems to be an appropriate time. We'll take a break now. We
5 will resume at 11.30.
6 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.
9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Can you hear me? Can I begin now? Thank you.
11 In your statement in response to my learned colleague's question,
12 you said that you were interviewed once while you were staying at the KP
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Can you tell me whether you said to the investigators of the OTP
16 in your statement dated the 30th of May, 1999, the following: "I was
17 interrogated many times during my detention. The interrogations took
18 place on the second floor of the administrative buildings. During these
19 interrogations, they did not beat me." Is that your statement?
20 A. When I said "once," I was referring to the investigators,
21 Koprivica specifically. On one occasion in connection with a problem that
22 occurred, when I was keeping this radio set that we listened to the news
23 on, Savo Todovic and Miro Prodanovic interrogated me in connection with
24 that. Miro Todovic -- Miro Prodanovic and Savo Todovic did not beat me
25 ever, though.
1 Q. Here you said "many times." You gave this statement to the best
2 of your recollection and to the best of your ability. That's what it says
3 there. Has your memory become refreshed now, or whatever?
4 A. No. I did not say that for sure because it is not true.
5 Q. Would it perhaps jog your memory if I were to show this to you, to
6 show you this statement, what it says there? This is your signed
8 A. There is no need, as I said. So it was twice, once by
9 Mr. Koprivica officially, and this other one was probably official, too,
10 this second occasion.
11 Q. So what it says here in this statement is not true. It says that
12 that is what you said.
13 A. No, that's not the way it was.
14 Q. But this is not correct, then, because that is what it says here.
15 A. I said that is not correct.
16 Q. In the same statement, it says that this first interrogation that
17 you were taken out for took place on the 18th of April, 1992, "On the
18 second day of my stay at the KP Dom." Today you said that you were first
19 taken out for an interrogation after seven days. Which one of the two is
21 A. It could not have been, because during those days I was in Room 12
22 and we could not get out. That is to say, a week later. Perhaps it was
23 not translated right, but that's the way it was.
24 Q. Thank you. Did you state to the investigator of the OTP that you
25 saw Milorad Krnojelac three times altogether?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. Thank you. In your statement here, you said that that --
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. I do
4 apologise, Your Honour. In the transcript, it does not say that he saw
5 Mr. Krnojelac during daytime. It doesn't say so in the transcript, that
6 is 34:13, but the witness did say so.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps you'd better take it up with the witness
9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Is it correct that you saw Milorad Krnojelac for a total of three
11 times while you were at the KP Dom, and all three times during daytime?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Thank you. You said that the last time you saw Mr. Krnojelac, you
14 saw him in uniform with a belt and weapons.
15 A. And an officer's bag.
16 Q. Oh, I see, and an officer's bag too. Why did you not say this to
17 anyone before? And you gave two statements to the OTP and one to the
18 security station, and you gave all of them to the best of your
19 recollection and to the best of your ability. That's what it says in all
20 these statements.
21 A. They probably didn't ask me about it.
22 Q. My learned colleague here did not ask you, either, whether
23 Mr. Krnojelac wore a belt and weapons and a military bag, and you
24 nevertheless said so. Did something jog your memory in the meantime?
25 A. I remember that, and that's what I said.
1 Q. Was your memory better in 1994 when you gave your statement in the
2 public security station and in 1997 when you did so to the investigator of
3 the OTP, or is your memory better today?
4 A. I was asked specifically here about Mr. Krnojelac, so I remembered
5 a bit more, whereas over there, nobody asked me about Mr. Krnojelac.
6 Q. You talked about Mr. Krnojelac there too. You only mentioned one
7 meeting, but you mentioned three here. Seeing him three times, I mean.
8 My colleague here did not ask you about weapons or the bag, either. Do
9 you have any explanation for all of this?
10 A. I was asked here whether he wore a uniform or civilian clothes.
11 Q. In the statement that you gave to the investigator of the OTP, you
12 mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac wore a uniform.
13 A. With what I already said, pistol, a small bag.
14 Q. You did not state that to the investigator of the OTP. Bearing in
15 mind that you gave these statements to the best of your recollection, that
16 means that at that time you did not remember that.
17 A. In 1994, my memory need not have been the best.
18 Q. What about 1997?
19 A. I don't know what to say. I mean, I wasn't asked about it. Had I
20 said so, I probably would have said so.
21 Q. What about 1999 in your second statement to the OTP?
22 A. I really cannot remember what I said.
23 Q. Thank you. Also, you mentioned here that you wrote requests for
24 the warden to receive you. You did not mention that fact in any one of
25 your statements, either your statement given to the public security
1 station or the two statements you gave to the investigator of the OTP. Is
2 the reason the same, or is it simply that you remember just now?
3 A. I remember it now. I mean, not this very minute, but when I was
4 informed that I would testify, that I would be a witness, I went through
5 things in my mind, that's a fact, and I mentioned this.
6 Q. Did you run things through your mind also before you gave
7 statements to the investigators of the OTP, to the police in Sarajevo,
8 because after all, we are talking about the period between 1994 and 1999?
9 A. I answered the questions they put to me.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you mention to someone what you mentioned here,
11 that you tried to call Mr. Krnojelac? I mean, did you ever mention this
12 before yesterday? And that's what you said yesterday.
13 A. When Mr. Krnojelac was arrested, I remembered a few things. I
14 remembered where I used to see him and how I used to see him. Then I
15 talked to people a bit about Mr. Krnojelac. I talked to the members of my
16 family, my friends, et cetera.
17 Q. Mr. Krnojelac was arrested in 1998 and you gave your second
18 statement to the investigator of the OTP in 1999, that is to say, after
19 these consultations. In that statement, nevertheless, you did not mention
20 what you said today.
21 A. First of all, these were not consultations. This was just
22 chatting. So I cannot remember.
23 Q. Thank you. You said that your father was released in May 1992; is
24 that correct?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. In response to my learned friend's question, you said that you
2 thought that your opinion was because the Red Cross had registered them;
3 is that correct?
4 A. That is certainly one of the reasons.
5 Q. In your statement you also mentioned that you knew that this
6 documentation that was compiled by the Red Cross was taken away by some
7 members of the military or the paramilitary, the Serb forces - I don't
8 know - and that the Red Cross no longer had these documents or the vehicle
9 that they had driven in before that. Is that correct?
10 A. That's what I knew.
11 Q. Can you agree with me if I say that, bearing this in mind, it is
12 not very logical that they were released because of the Red Cross lists,
13 because these lists were not in the hands of the organisation that had
14 compiled them but in the hands of the Serb forces. Can you agree with me,
15 then, that that conclusion that that is the reason is not logical?
16 A. I would not like to draw any conclusions.
17 Q. Yes, but in response to my learned colleague's question, you drew
18 a conclusion here that that was the reason, that that is why the list was
20 A. I can draw a conclusion. If they registered one room and they
21 started registering others, and then if they broke off abruptly, they
22 probably had a reason why they had to break off and why this was taken
23 away from them. I assume that they took them.
24 Q. What you said yesterday is only what you concluded, what you
25 inferred, and whether it's logical or not is another question, but it is
1 only what you inferred; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me: After you came to the KP Dom, were
4 there any ethnic Serbs there as well who were serving their sentences,
5 those pronounced in the former Yugoslavia, in the courts in the former
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. You stated yesterday that through some guards you
9 tried to get in touch with the warden again. Can you give us the names of
10 these guards through whom you made such attempts?
11 A. Through several of them, but I really cannot remember now who they
13 Q. Can you give me at least one name?
14 A. I can mention four or five names: Pljevaljcic, Obrenovic, Milic.
15 Q. Does that mean that you gave them these requests?
16 A. To tell you the truth, I can't remember now. I don't know which
17 ones of them exactly, but I did give these requests.
18 Q. Did you give any to Risto Ivanovic, a guard, also?
19 A. I really cannot remember now. I really can't.
20 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that these guards that you mentioned
21 are the ones that you remember, but you cannot remember having given them
22 these requests precisely?
23 A. I didn't really understand what you said.
24 Q. Does your answer mean that the names are the names of the guards
25 whom you remember, but you are not sure whether they were the ones to whom
1 you gave the requests for the warden to receive you?
2 A. Possibly it could have been one of them, some of them.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. With your permission, I would like to add something.
5 Q. Please go ahead.
6 A. Since they knew me a bit better, it was easier for me to address
7 them. That is why I mentioned their names.
8 Q. Thank you. You said that when you came to the KP Dom that there
9 were quite a few soldiers there with different uniforms from areas that
10 are outside the municipality of Foca. Can you tell me when these soldiers
11 left the KP Dom? Can you remember that?
12 A. Perhaps the beginning of May. Perhaps they stayed for another 10
13 or 15 days, to the best of my recollection.
14 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you mentioned that you did not have
15 adequate medical care. Did you say to the investigators of the OTP the
17 "Since I had some stomach problems before the war, during
18 detention I had lost weight and I had to be treated in prison. We would
19 give the guards a list of the detainees who were ill and then they took us
20 to the clinic, where the doctor examined the ill and prescribed
21 medicines. Very often there weren't any medicines. However, I was
22 fortunate to have known the doctors and the pharmacists, so I was treated
23 on time."
24 A. That's not right. That's not what I said.
25 Q. If I were to show you your statement dated the 17th and 18th of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 August and the 5th of September and the 16th of November that you gave to
2 the investigators of the OTP and that you signed on every page, to the
3 best of your knowledge, would you remember that you had stated that?
4 A. Please, we are just talking about time. Until the end of 1992,
5 that was not the case. However, when Sekulovic came later, that's the way
6 it was, and that's what I already said.
7 Q. However, you stated here that you were treated on time, that is to
8 say that your problems started then. Is that correct?
9 A. I was only referring to the time period that I mentioned here,
10 because that is when I got medical treatment. In 1992, when it was most
11 difficult, I did not get any medical treatment.
12 Q. If I understand the terms correctly, to treat "on time," that has
13 to do with the beginning of the problems that you had at the KP Dom; is
14 that correct?
15 A. That is maybe what it says there, but that's not the way it was.
16 Q. So what you said to the investigators of the OTP is not true?
17 A. That's not the way it was. Maybe it's a question of the
18 translation. Perhaps they did not refer rightly to the time pertaining to
19 my treatment. Let me add something else. In 1992, I did not know any
20 doctor, so I cannot say that I knew anyone. I did know the pharmacist,
22 Q. I am now going to read to you what you stated to the public
23 security station in terms of your treatment:
24 "I got ill, and after being examined by a doctor, I was told that
25 I had to go to hospital. Dr. Cedo Dragovic examined me. However,
1 allegedly there was no room in hospital, so I was prescribed infusion. I
2 was prescribed eight infusions within four days."
3 Is that correct?
4 A. No, that is not correct. That is not correct in terms of the
5 number of drips I got. I got only one.
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher help me, please.
7 Could he please give the witness this statement so that he could say
8 whether the signature on the bottom of the page is his.
9 JUDGE HUNT: That, of course, is the English version, is it not?
10 That was the one that would have been signed?
11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No. No, Your Honour. This is the
12 B/C/S version that I got from the OTP, ID 307, whereas the English version
13 is ID 307A.
14 JUDGE HUNT: We've been through this, I think, many times before,
15 but do you realise that what happens is the witness or the proposed
16 witness gives his statement in B/C/S, it's translated into English and
17 recorded in English? He signs the English version, which is then
18 retranslated back into B/C/S. Now, if we're dealing with minor details in
19 that with two different stages of translation, the weight to be afforded
20 to any minor discrepancy is very small.
21 So if it's an important matter, you proceed; but if it's not, may
22 I suggest you move on to your next point.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is actually not the case in this -- in
1 relation to this statement. This is a B/C/S statement given to the
2 Bosnian police.
3 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: So the original is in B/C/S, and the witness
5 signed the B/C/S version.
6 JUDGE HUNT: You're luckier than we are because I don't think it's
7 been made clear in the cross-examination.
8 You proceed, Mr. Vasic. I'm sorry.
9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I was about
10 to say the same thing. Thank you.
11 A. The signature, yes, right. Okay.
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is it your signature at the end of this page?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Can you give us the name of the pharmacist who issued
16 the medicines?
17 A. Gojko Jokanovic.
18 Q. Thank you. In your testimony here, you said that during your stay
19 in KP Dom, you changed rooms. Could you give us the rooms that you were
20 in and at what times?
21 A. I can't remember the times, but I'll give you the numbers of
22 rooms. In 12 to begin with, 11, in 15, 21, 16. I don't know. I changed
23 them often.
24 Q. But could you tell us, for instance, the years, in 1992, 1993,
25 1994, which rooms were you in?
1 A. Sir, I told you, I started Room 12, in Room 12, I moved on to my
2 father's in 11. Then I went to 15 until September 1992, so August,
3 September 1992. And then, unfortunately, a number of people were taken
4 for exchange, that is, only seven or eight were left, and then we were
5 moved to another room, and then I went to 21.
6 Q. You are referring to 1992, is it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And in 1993?
9 A. In 1993, I was in 16. It is working room. Room 20. I was in the
10 working room.
11 Q. Thank you. You said today that on one occasion you heard a shot
12 after a prisoner had been taken away. Did you also hear some shots on
13 other occasions which had nothing to do with the taking away of the
14 prisoners? Was there any gunfire opened in KP Dom that had nothing to do
15 with people being taken away?
16 A. I cannot remember.
17 Q. Thank you. You said that Mr. Zulfo Veiz was in the same room with
19 A. I did.
20 Q. Did they take him from your room on that occasion when he did not
21 come back from the interrogation?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was he taken to a ground-floor room where you had your meeting
24 with Krnojelac, as you told us, on that occasion when he did not come
1 A. I heard -- I guess that it is from that room that the beatings
2 reached us.
3 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what room were you in when you heard
4 shots related to the beatings that you told us about?
5 A. Room 15.
6 Q. Thank you. Today you spoke about the exchange in Cajnice. You
7 said that RJ and FWS-86 thought they had been sent there by Mr. Krnojelac.
8 Is that true?
9 A. It is.
10 Q. Did you ever mention this fact before, before anyone; the OTP
11 investigator or the Sarajevo police?
12 A. Perhaps. I don't remember.
13 Q. In no statement of yours can one find this particular fact. We
14 cannot find that either in the statement of the OTP or the police in
15 Sarajevo. How do you explain that?
16 A. I think it was an oversight. I must have said about it to the OTP
17 investigators. As for the -- as for Sarajevo, their security service, I
18 don't know, but I did mention it. I distinctly know that I mentioned the
19 exchange in Cajnice.
20 Q. So you claim that you said that, and the investigators forgot to
21 write it down, that is, that they omitted to write it down.
22 A. Yes, I think I'd put it that way.
23 Q. Thank you. Today when asked by my learned friend about
24 Mr. Tesovic, you said that, in your opinion, he did not insist on
25 continuing as the warden of the KP Dom because he was a member of the
1 reformist forces.
2 A. SDP, not the reformist forces.
3 Q. My apologies. Are you aware that immediately after the outbreak
4 of the conflict, Mr. Tesovic took a group of Muslim prisoners to Tuzla?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And that is -- took a long time to make the trip?
7 A. The first time I hear about it.
8 Q. Thank you. Are you aware that Mr. Tesovic, in August 1993, was
9 appointed the head of the commercial unit of the KP Dom?
10 A. I do not know when, but I know that he was this manager because I
11 saw him pass me by in the compound, within the compound.
12 Q. Since you said he was a member of the SDP, can you then explain it
13 to us? How did this appointment come about, in your view, since the SDS
14 still held the power at the time?
15 A. You have to ask Mr. Tesovic about that.
16 Q. I meant did you make some inferences about that? Did you think
17 that he became manager after he stopped being an SDP member, or what did
18 you -- what were your conjectures or what?
19 A. I'm saying that you have to ask him.
20 Q. I'm asking you, why did he stop -- when you were asked why did
21 Mr. Tesovic stop being the prison warden, you said he was a member of the
22 SDP. Now my question is, is that your inference?
23 A. Yes, that was my inference, but I can add also other names.
24 Mr. Trado Konkadin [phoen] was manager of Maglic, and he had to stop being
25 its manager because he was also on the SDP list. And there are other
2 Q. Thank you. I'm merely trying to show that my question was in line
3 with your inference. If the SDS was still in power, and it was, then how
4 could Mr. Tesovic be appointed the head of the commercial unit if the
5 reason for his being dismissed from the position of the warden was his
6 membership in the SDP? That is what I tried to ask you about.
7 A. I'll tell you. You know, I should say very well, that a wolf may
8 change his skin but never his nature, and that that is the reason.
9 Q. You spoke about poor diet in the KP Dom. Did all of the
10 prisoners, I mean of Muslim ethnicity, lose weight significantly?
11 A. Yes. During the early months of our stay there, yes, we all lost
13 Q. Thank you. My learned friend asked you about list C, which you
14 were shown. I should like to ask you about one name from that list, Mr.
15 Munib Veiz. Did you see him in the KP Dom?
16 A. I did, yes.
17 Q. Could you tell us what room he was in when you saw him?
18 A. I saw him line up for the canteen, so I saw him outside, but I
19 think that he was staying in room 13 or 11. But I only saw him during the
20 line-up, and that was on two occasions.
21 Q. Do you know what happened to him?
22 A. I learnt later that he was missing, that he was gone.
23 Q. Do you know when he went missing?
24 A. I can't really give you the exact date, but it was 1992.
25 Q. You mentioned the name of Sefko Kubat today and you said that,
1 unfortunately, he died. Could you tell us, when did he die?
2 A. I believe it was 1994.
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
4 Thank you, Your Honours. I apologise; just one question more. It
5 has to do with Mr. Kubat.
6 Q. Do you know what he died of, what was the cause of his death?
7 A. He suffered from stomach complaints. He was hospitalised,
8 underwent surgery, then lived for a couple of months after that and then
10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Your Honours, I have no further questions.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. I want to clarify two
14 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
15 Q. Witness, you were, just a few minutes ago, you were at this part
16 in relation to your examination conducted by Dr. Cedo Dragovic, as it is
17 in the statement you gave to the Bosnian police. Do you remember any
18 Dr. Cedo Dragovic?
19 A. I do remember Dr. Cedo Dragovic.
20 Q. And do you remember, did he examine you? And if so, when? Do you
21 recall when that was?
22 A. I think it was July. I think that the doctor came in July, and
23 that was the first time I went to see him.
24 Q. Of which year?
25 A. 1992.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And did he prescribe drips, as it is stated here, and did you
2 receive treatment afterwards?
3 A. Only once. I was given only one infusion, not after that. And
4 then Gojko Jokanovic gave me some tablets.
5 Q. And the other matter I would like to clarify is: You mentioned
6 when you were asked that you had a weapon on you when you went to your
7 sister's place in Zubovici. What kind of a weapon was it?
8 A. It was a pistol, Baretta; Baretta pistol which belonged to my
9 wife's father.
10 Q. Why did you take this weapon with you when you went to this house
11 in Zubovici?
12 A. I don't know. I think I felt safer with it.
13 Q. And you said also that when you were arrested you didn't have this
14 pistol. Where was it? Did you give it back or where did it stay?
15 A. I left it in the house.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. That is what we had to ask.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. You may leave. If you'll just wait
18 a moment before the blinds are pulled down so that you may leave the
19 courtroom without being identified by the public.
20 Is the next witness 82?
21 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE HUNT: And are there protective measures for that witness?
23 MS. KUO: No. That witness has not asked for any protective
25 JUDGE HUNT: Except a pseudonym, I assume.
1 MS. KUO: He did not request that either.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE HUNT: Please make the solemn declaration, sir.
5 WITNESS: RASIM TARANIN
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir, and we can have all the blinds
10 up and the screen moved. Thanks.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Examined by Ms. Kuo:
13 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Could you please tell us your name.
14 A. Good afternoon. I'm Rasim Taranin.
15 Q. When were you born?
16 A. On the 17th of March, 1942 [Realtime transcript read in error
18 Q. Where were you born?
19 A. Foca.
20 Q. Were you married, sir?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you have any children?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. How many?
25 A. A son.
1 Q. What ethnicity are you?
2 A. Muslim.
3 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I see on the transcript that the birth date
4 was written down as 1992.
5 JUDGE HUNT: We saw that.
6 MS. KUO:
7 Q. Could you tell us the birth -- the year you were born again so we
8 can get that corrected? What year were you born?
9 A. 17th of March, 1942.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, on Monday, when you came here to the
11 Tribunal, was there a short period of time when you came to the public
13 A. Here, you mean? I tried to, yes, to come and see a little, cast a
14 look, but I was told to go back.
15 Q. Did you see a portion of the trial?
16 A. Well, yes, from a corner, but I couldn't really see very well.
17 Q. Approximately how long were you there?
18 A. I don't know. I don't know. Not very long.
19 Q. Okay, sir. I'd like to turn your attention to April of 1992. At
20 that time, where did you live?
21 A. I lived at the railway station called Zigovci.
22 Q. How far from the centre of Foca was that?
23 A. About four kilometres, maybe five.
24 Q. Who lived there with you?
25 A. I lived there, and there were neighbours. I can give you their
1 names, if need be.
2 Q. I meant who of your immediate family was there with you?
3 A. My brother and I shared the house.
4 Q. And did your wife and son also live with you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Where did you work?
7 A. I worked for a public enterprise called Izvor.
8 Q. What kind of work did you do?
9 A. I was the head of the machine department, that is, for the last
10 ten years.
11 Q. In your opinion, sir, when did the war in Foca start?
12 A. Better said, sometime on the 6th of April fire began to be
13 exchanged on villages, and then on the 6th or 7th, I'm not quite sure,
14 around 9.00 in the evening, shelling began or, rather, rockets were aimed
15 at Focatrans.
16 Q. Where were you at that time?
17 A. At the time, I was at home.
18 Q. How far from Focatrans was that?
19 A. Some 150, 200 metres from my home.
20 Q. Did you do anything when you saw the rockets falling on Focatrans?
21 A. My family and I and my brother-in-law and his family, we fled to
23 Q. How long did you stay in the cellars?
24 A. Until the morning. The rockets, the shelling, stopped sometime
25 around 5.00.
1 Q. What did you do then?
2 A. When the fire stopped, we and my family decided to go to my
3 father-in-law because he was supposed to come in the evening and had
4 failed to do so.
5 Q. Where did your father-in-law live?
6 A. In the centre on Titovo Street, rather, right next to the SUP
8 Q. When you arrived -- was this an apartment building?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you arrived there, did anyone greet you, or did you meet
12 A. There was his neighbour, Milovan Zivanovic, a retired teacher.
13 Q. What ethnicity is he?
14 A. Orthodox, or better said, a Serb.
15 Q. Did he say anything to you?
16 A. He said, "Where is your father-in-law? Isn't he with you?" And I
17 said he wasn't and that was why we had come, to see if he was in his own
19 Q. Did Mr. Zivanovic tell you what you should do?
20 A. He told me to go upstairs to my father-in-law's flat, and if I had
21 any weapons with me, to give them to him.
22 Q. Did you have any weapons?
23 A. I had a hunting rifle, 20 years old.
24 Q. Did you give it to him?
25 A. I gave him this rifle which was all cleaned and all, and I told
1 him also, "Here are bullets, and you can see that the rifle is clean, so
2 mind that you don't say that I fired from it or anything." And he said,
3 "No problem. I know, I know you. I know you're a nice man," and he took
4 over the weapon.
5 Q. Why did you give your weapon to Mr. Zivanovic when he asked you?
6 Was there any particular reason?
7 A. He said to me that we had to do this, that there are all kinds of
8 members of the military, and somebody could say that you wanted to shoot
9 or something like that.
10 Q. How long did you stay at your father-in-law's place?
11 A. Well, all the time, until they came to pick me up, and then later
12 this man came and took me to the KP Dom. That is to say, until the 27th.
13 Q. The 27th of when?
14 A. April.
15 Q. Before that time, did you see soldiers in the area?
16 A. Well, at that time, I was in the cellar all the time, one could
18 Q. This is the cellar of your father-in-law's house -- apartment
19 building; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How big was that cellar?
22 A. It was long, about as long as the building itself, 100 or 200
23 metres, except it was partitioned.
24 Q. Who was hiding in the cellar with you?
25 A. In that part that we were in, there were three or four other
1 families as well.
2 Q. Were they Serb families or Muslim families?
3 A. All were Muslim, all were Muslim.
4 Q. Did any soldiers come to the cellar to speak with you or to take
5 anyone away?
6 A. They tried to get in, but thanks to Milovan Zivanovic, I mean, he
7 didn't allow them to get in.
8 Q. Did any soldiers come and tell you not to be afraid?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know a Nurko Nisic?
11 A. I know him. He was with me in the cellar.
12 Q. What happened to him in the cellar?
13 A. Well, that morning I did not notice who took him, only later I was
14 told that Nurko was taken away for questioning. I don't know who did it
15 or how it was, or whatever.
16 Q. You said Nurko was in the cellar with you. Was he also there with
17 his family?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you remember, in relationship to the time that you were taken
20 away, how soon before you were taken away Nurko Nisic was taken?
21 A. Well, before me. I'm not sure exactly when. He was in the cellar
22 with me for about six days.
23 Q. Now, you said that you were taken away on the 27th of April, 1992.
24 Can you tell us how that happened?
25 A. On the 27th of April, around 10.00, I went to take bread. I went
1 to get bread from a bakery near the post office. There were lots of
2 people there. The head of that shop, Nada, recognised me. I don't know
3 what his last name was. He asked me to come in, and he gave me two fresh,
4 hot loaves of bread, although I was not the one whose turn it was. We
5 jumped the queue. And then he said, "You can pay later, never mind."
6 Then by the borovo shop, I realised that there were three people
7 behind me, following me. They called out my last name, "Taranin, stop."
8 I pretended not to be able to hear them. He repeated, "Taranin, stop.
9 Can you hear me?" I heard him. I stopped; I turned around. Mr. Kovac
10 came, I think his name is Radomir, and he said, "Where have you been?"
11 And I said, "I went to buy bread." And, "Where are you going now?" I
12 said, "I'm going to my father-in-law's. That's where my family is." And
13 he said, "Leave that bread, and you're coming with me to the KP Dom to
14 make a statement." And that's exactly what I did.
15 When I came I said to Milovan Zivanovic that they came to pick me
16 up and that they were waiting for me outside. I was hoping that he would
17 help me. I went to the apartment, and I left the bread. I told my family
18 about this. They started crying. I went back downstairs, and I saw
19 Milovan talking to these men. I heard Milovan say, "Don't take him. They
20 know about him. Rasim is a good man. The command knows about him, too."
21 And he said, "I'm not asking you about that. He's going to the KP Dom."
22 He called the duty policeman, the policeman who was on duty then.
23 I don't know exactly his name and surname, but I know his nickname. For
24 ten or 15 years he was a professional policeman. His nickname is Coce.
25 He ignited [as translated] the car. They put me in the back. This
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Radomir Kovac and another one, I don't know his name exactly, they took me
2 to the KP Dom where the officer on duty was Koroman Slavko, who was a
3 senior officer, and then there was also Ivanovic Risto by the gate.
4 Q. Let me stop you. You mentioned that three men stopped you. One
5 of them was Radomir Kovac. What were they wearing, do you remember? Were
6 they wearing military clothes or civilian clothes?
7 A. Military, military. It was a uniform. Military, all three of
9 Q. Did they identify themselves by what authority they were taking
10 you to the KP Dom?
11 A. Nothing, nothing. It was the way I told you about. They got me
12 to the KP Dom without even touching me.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could the witness please
14 come close to the microphone.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you bring your chair a little bit close to
16 the microphones. The interpreters are having difficulty hearing you.
17 Thank you.
18 MS. KUO: What ethnicity --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I do apologise.
20 MS. KUO:
21 Q. What ethnicity were the soldiers who took you to the KP Dom?
22 A. Well, their very names show that they're Serbs.
23 Q. Sir, regarding the manner in which you were arrested, did you give
24 a statement in 1995 to investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor? Do
25 you remember that?
1 A. I don't know. I remember when I got out of the camp, sometime in
2 October or November 1994 - I think it was October - that my own
3 authorities, the MUP, asked me to give a statement, and I did. Then I
4 came (redacted) I gave some kind of a statement. I
5 don't know, to tell you the truth, what it was all about.
6 Q. When you came to the Tribunal on Monday to prepare for your
7 testimony here, did you have a chance to review the statement that you
8 gave in (redacted), for the first time, in your own language?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And in the statement, did it say that you were arrested in the
12 A. I don't know. That's what it says. I can't remember now. Maybe
13 that is what it says, but that's not correct. It was the way I told you:
14 I was buying bread, and as I was going towards my house, they called out
15 my name. They caught me then.
16 Q. When you reviewed your statement, did you find other things that
17 you were surprised to read, things that you found to be inaccurate?
18 A. Yes, there were some things. I don't know. Maybe the translators
19 made some mistakes, maybe I made some mistakes, maybe somebody
20 misinterpreted what I said. There were some things like that.
21 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, you mentioned --
22 A. You're welcome.
23 Q. -- you were taken to KP Dom and you met there a Slavko Koroman and
24 a Risto Ivanovic. Were they working at KP Dom? Do you know that?
25 A. I know them well, if I can put it that way. They are my great
1 friends, both of them, and they did that job professionally. I don't know
2 for how many years, but for a long time it was.
3 Q. When you said "that job," you meant that they worked at KP Dom
4 before the war as well; is that what you mean?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did either of them say anything to you when you were brought to
7 the KP Dom that day?
8 A. Well, Slavko said to me, either ill-intentionally or maybe he was
9 just joking, he said, "Where did you catch him?" They just left me
10 there. And he said to me, "Turk, where did they catch you? Fuck all the
11 gods you've got." And then somebody said, "Mr. Risto, Rasim is a good
12 man. Take him to where his director is, room number 15."
13 Q. Who was making all those comments, cursing you?
14 A. This thing that was said to me was said by Slavko Koroman.
15 Q. Did that surprise you that he said those things to you?
16 A. Well, at first it did, but later he said, "I'm joking. Rasim is a
17 good guy." Then I realised it was a joke.
18 Q. When he said it was a joke, had the two men who had brought you
19 already left?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where were you taken then?
22 A. He took me by the hand and took me to number 15, upstairs.
23 Q. Could you tell us where room 15 is located, what floor?
24 A. Well, when you enter the main gate, you go right upstairs, and on
25 the left-hand side was room number 11. That's what it was called. And I
1 went a bit to the right and then there was number 12. And then I took the
2 stairs upstairs and that's where number 15 was. Opposite me was something
3 like a health or whatever - what would I call it? - clinic for
5 Q. In room 15, how many smaller rooms were there?
6 A. Upstairs there were four rooms. Actually, there was one big room
7 of about 30, 40 beds. Thirty, forty beds could fit in there. Then there
8 was a small room where I would be staying. That was a small room with
9 seven beds. And two rooms that were for taking a rest, smoking a
10 cigarette. And then from that other room, there was a toilet that you
11 could go to from there. So I think you could say that there were four
12 rooms altogether, actually.
13 Q. How long did you stay in room 15? Do you remember?
14 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly whether it was a month and a half
15 or two. I'm not sure.
16 Q. How long did you stay at KP Dom?
17 A. Approximately about 13 or 14 months.
18 Q. Do you remember the exact date when you were released from KP Dom?
19 A. You mean altogether or from Foca?
20 Q. I mean the date that you were taken away from KP Dom Foca.
21 A. I can't tell you exactly, but it was either the end of May or the
22 month of June. I don't know the exact date when I went to Rudo.
23 Q. And that would be 1993?
24 A. We're talking about 1993.
25 Q. Thank you. Shortly after your arrival at KP Dom, were you made to
1 start working?
2 A. After three or four days, they assigned me to carry flour from
3 Ustikolina to Foca.
4 Q. Let's clarify that. How did you get to Ustikolina?
5 A. A guard came in the morning and he said, "Taranin, get ready. You
6 are going to work." He took me out of the room and at the gate I saw some
7 15 or so men. I thought we were going somewhere, but I didn't think of
8 work really. He took me and three more men. They put us in a police van
9 and they took us to Ustikolina. That is where we stood along an assembly
10 line, and some of us were loading and others were unloading sacks of
11 flour, and that's exactly what we did.
12 Q. When you arrived at Ustikolina, was it just you and the other
13 three detainees in your car or did the whole group of 15 or 20 detainees
14 also arrive at Ustikolina?
15 A. At that time, there were four groups, because there were four
16 trucks. I worked for four days. Well, now I cannot say whether there
17 were four groups and four trucks every day. I'm not sure of that.
18 Q. When you were loading and unloading sacks of flour, what were you
19 loading onto?
20 A. Three consignments to Livade, a warehouse that belonged to the
21 JNA, and it was a warehouse of flour and salt and things like that for
22 Perucica. Those were three consignments. And the fourth one was on the
23 fourth day at the headquarters of the Perucica company, where the Serif
24 Lojo barracks used to be.
25 Q. So am I to understand that when you were loading flour in
1 Ustikolina, it was onto lorries to take them to Foca, to these warehouses?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And were you then driven to Foca to unload the sacks of flour once
4 they were delivered to the warehouses you described?
5 A. That's where we were, on trucks. And then you would put the
6 tarpaulin over us and the sacks of flour, whereas the guard was with the
7 driver in front.
8 Q. You said that you did this for four days. Did you have any choice
9 about working in this way?
10 A. I didn't even try anything. I didn't dare say anything.
11 Q. And to clarify things, the warehouses that you described these
12 flour sacks being delivered, was that also in Foca town?
13 A. That does belong to the town of Foca. For example, the Livade
14 warehouse is two kilometres away from the centre, whereas the Serif Lojo
15 barracks is not even a kilometre away from the centre of town.
16 Q. Who was in charge of the work; do you know?
17 A. Well, I can't say exactly. We were taken by a guard, a policeman,
18 from the KP Dom.
19 Q. And when you were working, were you being guarded by anyone?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who? What was that person or persons wearing?
22 A. These were policemen from the KP Dom who worked before, too, and
23 they had the same kind of uniform that they wore before the war as well.
24 Q. Did you have any contact with a Savo Todovic during this time?
25 A. Well, on the fourth day, when I finished working in the afternoon,
1 I returned to the camp. He was sitting outside on a chair where these
2 people would usually sit. He said "Taranin, how are things going, this
3 job?" I said, "Well --" and he said, "Is it better to be a boss or a
5 I was thinking about what I should say. If I would put it the
6 other way around, I was afraid I'd get in trouble, so I thought that I
7 should say the truth. I said it was better to be the boss rather than a
8 worker. And he said, "No more bossing around, there's only work left."
9 And then I went on into the camp.
10 Q. Do you know whether Savo Todovic had an official function at the
11 KP Dom during this time?
12 A. He was deputy warden, the deputy of Warden Krnojelac.
13 Q. How do you know that he was the deputy warden?
14 A. That's what everybody told us, the guards and also when people
15 talked amongst themselves. As soon as I got in, I was told that Krnojelac
16 was warden and that Savo Todovic was deputy. Savo Todovic was in the KP
17 Dom before that as well, but I don't know which post he held.
18 Q. Did you know Krnojelac before the war?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. How did you know him?
21 A. As a citizen, as a math teacher at the school. I don't know
22 whether he taught physics as well. However, I cooperated with his school
23 and with the principal of his school, Darko; and also, our machinery took
24 away the waste that had to be taken away from his school.
25 I don't know whether I should tell you about all of this. Joko
1 Gasic [phoen] was my boss, and we gave them a subsidised price so that
2 there would be more money for the students so they could go on excursions
3 during the summer and things like that. And every time I went to see
4 them, they were real nice to me. They'd offer me coffee, and they were
5 good to me, and I would like to thank them on this occasion as well.
6 Q. Sir, did you -- who were you told -- who told you that Krnojelac
7 was the warden of KP Dom?
8 A. All the guards, all the guards in the compound and the policemen.
9 I mean, whenever anything had to be done, they said that they had to ask
10 Krnojelac. That's what they told us.
11 Q. Were you surprised to see that Krnojelac was the warden of KP Dom?
12 A. Yes, at first, because I thought that he was a nice man, a
13 teacher, a math teacher, an educator, and to take that kind of a difficult
14 job after that, I was a bit surprised. But then, sometimes people take
15 jobs. Maybe somebody imposed it on him. But I would never have done
16 that, if anybody were to ask me something like that.
17 Q. Did you personally see Krnojelac at the KP Dom?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How often?
20 A. About three or four times I saw him. Twice I took his breakfast
21 to him because I worked at the kitchen then. Actually, I was not the one
22 who found that food. It was Krsto Krnojelac who was sometimes leader of
23 the shift. He would prepare the food. And he ate very little; he didn't
24 eat much. Usually he would have two scrambled eggs, and two times while I
25 was there, I took it to him.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. I want to make sure that the record is clear. You mentioned that
2 there was a Krnojelac who was a cook. What relation was the Krnojelac who
3 was the cook to Krnojelac the warden? Were they related at all?
4 A. They should be related. Krsto Krnojelac was a professional cook,
5 at least for me at the time while I worked there. He was very fair to
6 me. I think that they are closely related.
7 Q. And do you know the first name of Krnojelac the warden?
8 A. You know, to tell you the truth, I can't remember now. I don't
9 know, maybe I'll remember later. I'll tell you then. I know exactly what
10 his name is, but just give me some time. I'm not sure. I don't want to
11 say this just off the cuff, just like that. I do apologise.
12 Q. That's fine. You said that you brought him breakfast. Where did
13 you bring the breakfast to him?
14 A. A room where they ate separately, the guards and these people from
15 the directorate and these policemen who had superior rank.
16 Q. And they ate separately from whom?
17 A. They ate separately in another room. They had a room of their
18 own, and in this other room there were the detainees, the prisoners. That
19 was a different room. That's not where they ate.
20 Q. Did they -- did you serve the same food to both the detainees and
21 the prison staff?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What was the difference in food?
24 A. First of all, there was a separate pot for us, the inmates - I
25 don't know what to call us - and then there was another pot for the
1 officers, the guards, these other people.
2 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac, the warden, other than the times that
3 he came to eat?
4 A. Well, while the year I was there, actually one year and two months
5 or so, 13 or 14 months, I saw him about three or four times.
6 Q. When you saw him those three or four times, what was he doing?
7 A. Well, he'd come to have breakfast at that time, usually.
8 Q. And just so that the record is clear, when you first said that you
9 saw him only two times, did you mean that those were the two times you saw
10 him at breakfast?
11 A. I was referring to the two times I served him.
12 Q. Then the three or four times, is that in addition to those two
14 A. No, no. All of this put together.
15 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Krnojelac other than when he came to eat?
16 A. I did not.
17 MS. KUO: Your Honour, perhaps this is a good time for us to go
19 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. We'll resume at 2.30.
20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.
3 MS. KUO:
4 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. Before the lunch break, we were talking about Krnojelac, the
7 warden. I have a few more questions about him. When you saw him at the
8 KP Dom, was he dressed in uniform or in civilian clothes?
9 A. When I saw him, then he was in a uniform.
10 THE INTERPRETER: If the witness could come closer to the
11 microphone, please.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Would you move up against the desk again, please,
13 sir, so that they can hear you more clearly through the microphones.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MS. KUO:
16 Q. Were there also times when you saw him in civilian clothes inside
17 the KP Dom?
18 A. I didn't see him often. As I said, he came four or five times,
19 and on all those occasions he was in a uniform.
20 Q. When you saw Mr. Krnojelac, the warden, did you ever speak with
21 him or did he say anything to you?
22 A. No, although when I arrived in the KP Dom, I did ask to speak to
23 him. I asked him to receive me to find out why I had been brought there,
24 but I never made it to him.
25 Q. When you spoke with investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor
1 in 1995, you said that Krnojelac was the director only on paper. What did
2 you mean by that?
3 A. Well, I don't know if I used the word "director," but he was a
4 warden, because that is how we addressed him, and guards had also told us
5 that they referred to him as the warden, and that is how we concluded that
6 he was a warden.
7 Q. But the part of the statement where you say he was the warden only
8 on paper -- first of all, did you say that he was the warden only on
10 A. Well, from what was going on in the KP Dom, yes, it did seem that
11 he was the warden on paper, because all the rest, with guards and all the
12 other contacts, all the other jobs were performed there by Savo Todovic.
13 Q. When you spoke with the state security office in Sarajevo in 1994,
14 did you tell them that Todovic was the one who was in command at KP Dom?
15 A. I don't remember if that was how I worded it then, but I do know
16 that he practically ran things more in the KP Dom than Krnojelac, called
18 Q. Do you know what the relationship was between Krnojelac, the
19 warden, and Savo Todovic at KP Dom at that time?
20 A. I couldn't say really. All I know is that Todovic ran all those
21 important things there. Whether Krnojelac had authorised him or had he
22 authorised himself, that is something I wouldn't know.
23 Q. Now, Witness, you described how you -- the first task that you
24 were made to do. The first labour was loading and unloading sacks of
25 flour. Were you asked to do something else after that?
1 A. After that, two or three days later, this work brigade, the
2 construction brigade, had to go to pull down a school, and I sometimes
3 joined that group. Sometimes we were seven or eight or twelve. And that
4 is what we went to do, to pull down that school.
5 Q. Did you volunteer or were you simply taken to do that?
6 A. They came to take me, a guard, and said, "Taranin, you're going
7 with a group to do that," and of course I had no right to say anything.
8 Q. Where was the school located?
9 A. It was next to Serif Lojo's monument, or rather, next to the
10 health centre in Aladza, near Aladza mosque in the park, something like
12 Q. Were you able to see the condition of the Aladza mosque at that
14 A. When we began demolishing the school, removing the tiles and other
15 things from the roof, around the 10th or 15th -- no, I'm not quite sure.
16 But until the 15th, the Aladza still stood up, or at least the tower, or
17 as we Muslims call it, the minaret. It was standing until sometime around
18 the 15th of May.
19 Q. What happened after the 15th of May?
20 A. There was a break of two or three days, that is, we didn't go to
21 that school. We were not given any reason for that. We thought that
22 perhaps there was some drill or exercise in the town. But after two or
23 three days, we went back to that school to continue pulling it down, and
24 somebody -- I could not see it because I was piling some tiles, but
25 somebody, during a short break, said that Aladza mosque was gone.
1 Q. Were you able to see that for yourself?
2 A. Later on, yes, the next day. One couldn't really watch much
3 because the guards wouldn't let us, but later on as we climbed the roof,
4 yes, we all cast looks in that direction, and we saw that, yes, the mosque
5 was gone.
6 Q. Could you describe exactly what you were doing in terms of the
7 school? You mentioned taking tiles down. What were you doing to the
9 A. It was roof tiles that we are taking off, and then the various
10 timber elements. We were all putting it -- bringing it down. We were
11 simply demolishing the school, pulling down the school. For a while I was
12 taking off roof tiles and then piling them up, and timber and other
13 construction material. True, I was a worker there, but there was a tailor
14 -- a carpenter there, and he was the leader of our brigade, or I don't
15 know what you call it.
16 Q. Do you know why you were taking the school down?
17 A. Not really. I heard various comments, and even some guards, they
18 were saying that they were pulling down the school in order to build a
20 Q. And in the process of tearing down the school, were you using your
21 bare hands, or did you have machines or tools?
22 A. Well, we had some picks which helped us to break something off,
23 things like that. I mean, nothing much, really.
24 Q. Do you know whether that school was a mixed, ethnically-mixed
25 school, or a predominantly Muslim or a predominantly Serb school before
1 the war?
2 A. It was the first school; it was the oldest school there.
3 Everybody was enrolled there. Everybody attended that school, and that
4 includes me. All the ethnic groups, there were no divisions or anything.
5 True, I mean, there were not too many different ethnic groups. There were
6 Muslims and Serbs and a few Croats, but very few.
7 Q. How many days did you work on that school, or when did you stop?
8 A. I worked there for about 11, maybe 12 days. I can't remember the
9 date when I stopped, and when I was moved over to the kitchen.
10 Q. How long did you work in the kitchen?
11 A. I can't specify, really, how many months, but I, I went to work in
12 kitchen -- in the kitchen for four times, and four times I left the
13 kitchen; that is, sometimes for a month, sometimes for two months, and I
14 would be off and then would come again. It could have been about, well,
15 during a period of ten months, I think, but I'm not really a hundred per
16 cent sure.
17 Q. What kind of work did you do in the kitchen?
18 A. During my first round there, there were six of us, quite a number
19 of prisoners, and they needed people to wash dishes, distribute food,
20 slice bread, and we were doing it there under the supervision of civilian
22 Q. You said the civilian police. Were you also supervised by the
23 cooks, professional cooks?
24 A. Well, they were responsible for us who worked in the kitchen. We
25 were under their control, the civilian cook, who used to work there before
1 the war. They ran the kitchen, and we were under their supervision.
2 Q. Before the break, you discussed serving food to the prison staff.
3 Did there come a time when the prison staff stopped eating on the KP Dom
4 premises and started eating somewhere else?
5 A. It was after quite some time, perhaps a couple of months later, a
6 separate restaurant was opened outside the compound, which existed even
7 before the war, for both the employees and for outsiders. And I suppose
8 somebody suggested that it be open again, either by the warden or somebody
9 else, so that they could take their meals there, so that they were not
10 coming to the compound to take their meals.
11 Q. Do you remember approximately when that was, when the outside
12 restaurant opened?
13 A. I am not sure. It could have been seven or eight months after the
14 outbreak of the war it could have been done. Yes, I should say seven or
15 eight months, but I'm not sure, to be quite honest. I wasn't really --
16 all that I was concerned about was how to survive. I didn't really pay
17 much attention.
18 Q. And also before the break you mentioned that the prison staff and
19 the detainees had their food in different pots. Could you tell us the
20 difference in quality and quantity of the food that the prison staff
21 received and that the detainees received?
22 A. I didn't quite understand your question. If you are asking about
23 inmates, like we were, I mean, there were some Serb prisoners who were
24 there because of some transgressions. There was also a big difference.
25 And if you mean the staff and the guards who had their meals in the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 compound, the difference was even greater.
2 Q. Let's start with a description of the food that the staff and the
3 guards received. What kind of food did they have available to them?
4 A. Well, their food was quite wholesome. They could have what they
5 wanted: eggs different ways, meat, tins. They could have anything they
7 Q. You described the Serb prisoners who were there. What kind of
8 food and how much could they have?
9 A. They also did not eat bad; not as good as the guards or the staff,
10 but they had decent food. The boss told me personally, "Well, give them
11 as much bread as they want or whatever they ask, give it to them," so we
12 had to.
13 Q. And what did the Muslim detainees receive to eat?
14 A. Well, let me tell you, it was rather critical for a while. Bread
15 was sliced into 11 slices; and for a month or two or so began to cut it
16 into 10 slices; and then later on it improved slightly and it was cut into
17 9 slices. So those were really thin slices. There were very many of us
18 and I really sliced tonnes of that bread. And that was that. And some
19 soup. Allegedly they had nothing else. Practically it was little more
20 than water.
21 Q. How many slices of bread was each Muslim detainee allowed per day?
22 A. Per day, you mean? Well, in the morning you go to have your
23 breakfast and then your supper, lunch; a slice of bread.
24 Q. So you received three meals a day and each meal you received one
25 slice of bread; is that right?
1 A. Yes. That was the ration.
2 Q. Did you serve the bread to the detainees as they came in?
3 A. I did. Not all the time, because we took shifts. Some -- one of
4 us slices it, some distributes bread, some pours out or, rather, ladles
5 out soup.
6 Q. Were you or the people serving the Muslim detainees allowed to
7 give more than one slice of bread to each detainee?
8 A. No. We were told, we were warned, cautioned specifically to take
9 care, to mind not to give anyone more bread. And I heard very many
10 criticisms from other Muslims that I hadn't given them enough bread, and
11 they would look around and say that there was so much bread around me.
12 But, you know, I stand there, they are behind me, other people, and I did
13 not give anyone any more bread even though they're quite famished, they
14 can barely walk, and yet I did not dare give them more.
15 Q. Were you told what would happen to you if you dared give more than
16 a slice of bread to a hungry detainee?
17 A. Well, yes. At least seven days of solitary confinement and then
18 you can't work there again, or then you are hit, you are struck with
19 a baton, and it would never occur to you again to give anyone an extra
20 slice of bread.
21 Q. Were there guards present to make sure, to enforce this rule?
22 A. Yes. When a column goes for breakfast or lunch, then there's a
23 guard in front and a guard behind. And if he's not in front of the line,
24 then he comes with the head cook, chief cook, and stands with him and
25 watches how the food is distributed.
1 Q. Were there also measures to prevent you and other people working
2 in the kitchen, other detainees, from taking food out of the kitchen?
3 A. At the end, that is, for instance, in the evening, when I would
4 finish my job, the guard would come to take me to my room. Before that,
5 he searches me in detail to see if I had stolen something, a piece of
6 bread or something else.
7 Q. Were you ever mistreated during these searches?
8 A. Yes, but not many of them.
9 Q. Could you tell us what happened to you?
10 A. Well, I couldn't really tell you. It is difficult to talk about
11 those people who stooped so low. I can mention Vukovic, who on a couple
12 of occasions gave me a scare and kicked me in the - pardon the
13 expression - in the arse or perhaps slapped me in the face.
14 Q. What was the first name of this Vukovic?
15 A. I don't know. Allegedly he -- I don't know exactly what his name
16 is, but allegedly he harmed some people.
17 Q. Was he a guard at KP Dom?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did he give you any reason why he was slapping or kicking you?
20 A. Well, once he said to me -- I didn't really know him well, and
21 once he said that he knew me well, which I know, and then he did that,
22 which he shouldn't have done, but, well ...
23 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the incident or group of incidents
24 described here is listed in Schedule A, incident number 13. There is a
25 first name provided of that guard and the last name is the same, and the
1 guard whom we believe this is referring to is also listed in the exhibit
2 P3 at number 52.
3 Q. Did you also bring food to detainees who were kept in solitary
5 A. Some, yes, but not very often.
6 Q. Do you remember specifically any detainee who was kept in solitary
7 confinement to whom you brought food?
8 A. I remember it, yes.
9 Q. Can you give us the name or names of the detainees?
10 A. Rasim Kiselica, a tradesman from Godinje who was taken to solitary
11 confinement, from Godinje, and I was the first one to take him lunch or
12 supper or whatever.
13 Q. Was there anyone else?
14 A. There were some whom I could not see. I could recognise Rasim
16 Q. Do you know why these people were put in solitary confinement?
17 A. I couldn't say. Allegedly, Rasim and his women are (redacted)
18 now. He said that they found him at home, put him in a car, brought him
19 to the KP Dom and in solitary confinement.
20 Q. Why was it that you had to bring them food? Were they allowed to
21 go to the canteen to get food with everyone else?
22 A. Oh, come, no. Solitary confinement is solitary confinement.
23 Before the war and, of course, the state of war, you can't even see him,
24 let alone let him into some other room. Well, I managed to take some food
25 to him and to see him, but they were not allowed to come out or get food
1 or some -- anything.
2 Q. So your bringing food to them was in your official capacity as
3 part of your kitchen work; is that right?
4 A. Well, yes, but it all depended on guards. If a guard sees that
5 one of them cannot do it, then he finds one of the inmates working in the
6 kitchen and tells him to take this food. You go to the door, the guard
7 opens the door, give this food to the guard, and the guard just throws it
8 in. Well, as an isolation cell, like an isolation cell, like an isolation
10 Q. As part of your kitchen work, did you also have to get fuel to
11 operate the stove?
12 A. There was no fuel, and the power was cut off and there was no
13 steam, because they were all steam-operated stoves. And we had to make a
14 kitchen stove in the yard where we cooked meals for inmates. And in the
15 morning I had to chop wood and then light the fire in the morning so that
16 when the head cook came, everything would be ready.
17 Q. Was there a time when you had to go outside the KP Dom to the
18 river to get wood?
19 A. I did that two or three times, thanks to a nice guard who allowed
20 me to go to the Drina and to take some dry branches fallen off poplars,
21 and I used that to light the fire.
22 Q. Was there a time when you had to use the wooden pillars of a
23 destroyed mosque to light the stove?
24 A. I twice seized that opportunity. I found two or three pillars,
25 and my guess was that they came from Careva dzamija because that was pine
1 wood. And although that is a shame, a sin, a disgrace, yet nevertheless I
2 chopped those because -- and I kept that as firewood to help me light the
3 fire in the morning.
4 Q. Where did you find those pillars?
5 A. It was across the KP Dom town where cars are parked next to -- on
6 the Drina bank, really.
7 Q. And how were the pillars there? Were they arranged in any way, or
8 did they look like they had just been dumped there?
9 A. Well, I suppose a lorry must have brought that and then unloaded
10 it. There were some other structural construction material. I didn't pay
11 much attention to that. I saw those two or three pillars, and I decided
12 to chop them and use them then as firewood.
13 Q. Did you actually recognise those pillars as coming from the Careva
15 A. I did, I did.
16 Q. Where was the Careva mosque located? Was it also in Foca?
17 A. It was in Foca, above the green market.
18 Q. Were you ever required to give a statement at KP Dom?
19 A. For two or three months, I kept trying to get to the warden and
20 make a statement, and the last time I asked for that, a guard came and
21 said, "Taranin, wait. You're asking for too much. Your time will come."
22 So that I just stopped trying.
23 Q. Why were you trying to make a statement?
24 A. Well, I thought that I was a man who had nothing negative about
25 him. I lived well with everyone, including the Serbs. I was an honest
1 citizen. I thought that I would be interviewed, interrogated, and that
2 then they would release me. That's what I thought.
3 Q. Were you eventually taken to give a statement?
4 A. On one occasion as I was working in the kitchen, Krsto Krnojelac
5 came and said, "Taranin, come to the gate. A guard is waiting for you to
6 give a statement." Since I wore a white uniform, because cooks and
7 kitchen helpers had to have white kitchen uniforms, and he said, "Never
8 mind, just take off your cap," and that's what I did.
9 And then the guard met me there and said come on to this room in a
10 hall which was pretty long, about 20 or 30 metres. That's where I found
11 three or four men, prisoners. I didn't really look at them very
12 carefully, and I couldn't recognise who they were, and the guard said,
13 "You line up here with them." That's what I did.
14 After two or three minutes, not more than that, three inspectors
15 showed up, Starovic Slobo was the first one, and Koprivica, and the third
16 one who worked in the crime prevention service before as well. I'll give
17 you his name, I just forgot it right now. Vladicic, Vladicic, that was
18 the third one. Vladicic said to me -- or rather, he said to his
19 colleagues, "Who will take Taranin over?" Koprivica immediately said that
20 he would. He said, "Let Rasim come with me." He took me by the arm and
21 brought me into a room. He followed me into that room.
22 Q. What happened when you went into the room with him? What kinds of
23 things did he ask you?
24 A. He said, "Sit down." He took off his coat. He took out his
25 briefcase. He looked at some papers two or three times. He took a pack
1 of cigarettes, put it in front of him. He opened that pack. He offered
2 me a cigarette. I refused, I didn't want to smoke, and he said, "Don't be
3 frightened. Take a cigarette. Light up." And I took that cigarette. He
4 lit it. He lit my cigarette, too, as well as his own. We both smoked a
5 cigarette. He said to me that he knew me and he asked me whether I knew
6 him. I could not remember at first, but later on I did remember him,
7 because his brother played soccer well. He followed sports too. And I
8 was also in sports organisations. I was there all the time. So we both
9 smoked a cigarette and we didn't talk about anything really except for
10 such private matters.
11 Finally he said to me, "I see that you're frightened. Don't be
12 frightened. You're a good man. Let me just ask you one thing: What is
13 Emir Taranin to you? Who is he?" And he [as interpreted] said, "He's my
14 brother's son. He's about 16 years old." "Did he have any weapons?" I
15 said that I never saw him with a weapon. And then he said, "Some people
16 say that they saw him with a weapon." And I said, "Believe me, I don't.
17 On Saturdays and Sundays I worked as well. I mean, he could have had an
18 automatic rifle, but I really didn't know about that. Actually, we were
19 not on very good terms, this brother of mine and I, and we did have this
20 house but we are not on very good terms, so I didn't really check on him,
21 what he was doing and who had what." And then this man said, "Rasim, we
22 trust you. We know you as a citizen. We'll have another cigarette." And
23 then he said, "You're going to sign this record." I didn't even see him
24 write all of that and all this, and then he said, "I can read this out to
25 you." And then I said, "Oh, I trust you. You don't have to read it.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 I'll sign it." And that's exactly the way we did it. I mean, nobody
2 believed me that I did so well with the inspectors, that I fared so well
3 with this inspector, and I want to thank him on this occasion as well for
5 Q. Do you know whether other detainees were beaten while they were at
6 KP Dom?
7 A. There were all sorts of things. I could not see that. Some
8 listened to that, but I didn't even try to listen and I couldn't see it,
9 because when a man is frightened, he's not really up to that kind of
11 Q. What were you frightened of hearing?
12 A. You know, when you hear somebody beating somebody else and when
13 you hear this other person moaning and crying, then you have the feeling
14 that you're going to be next. And this feeling goes through your entire
15 body and, begging your pardon, you may even piss in your pants out of
16 fear. It's so bad when you get into a situation like that.
17 Q. Did you actually hear the sounds of people being beaten if you
18 didn't cover your ears?
19 A. Some listened. I couldn't listen. I didn't dare try do that.
20 This usually happened in the night shift, when they would come in the
21 evening at 7.00. They took people out for interrogations and there were
22 these really negative situations. Some people had the patience to listen
23 to all these screams and moans. In the evening, as soon as I would
24 finish, I would lie down, I would cover myself, and I would wait. I would
25 wait to see what my fate would be and I could hardly wait for the break of
2 Q. Could you name some of the detainees who were beaten in this way?
3 A. They say there were quite a few. I did not see them. I saw Nurko
4 Nisic when he came to the kitchen. He was seriously injured in the face,
5 all blue. I saw him when he was lined up there. He was beaten up very
6 badly. Perhaps there were others too, but I did not notice all of that,
7 but I noticed that Nurko was all blue.
8 MS. KUO: Your Honours, this Nurko Nisic is listed on Schedule C
9 at number 19.
10 Q. Do you remember the names of anyone else that you saw beaten or
11 saw injuries as a result of beatings?
12 A. Well, it's hard to say. I have to tell the truth here. If
13 somebody were beaten very badly, then it would be very hard for him to
14 show up where the other prisoners were. They would not line up with the
15 rest of the prisoners. I mean, people would be terrified if they were to
16 see that, so perhaps they would throw them into isolation cells or
17 something, or I don't know. There weren't any exchanges or things like
19 Q. Where you saw him with the injuries, was he by himself or with a
20 group of other detainees?
21 A. He was in a group with other detainees.
22 Q. Now, you made the comment that there weren't any exchanges or
23 anything like that. What did you mean?
24 A. I mean all those groups that went out. They said that they were
25 all going out for an exchange, and we were all pleased, and we all tried
1 to get into these groups, to get into those exchanges. And when I got
2 out, my phone wouldn't stop ringing. People kept asking me where these
3 people were. There were women calling me and asking about their husbands
4 and other people, and everybody was asking. The only thing I could say
5 was, "He went out for an exchange," and see, they're missing until the
6 present day.
7 Q. Could you describe how these people were taken out, the ones that
8 you said were told they would be exchanged?
9 A. Well, a guard would get into a room where there was a man who was
10 supposed to go out, and then say -- he'd say, "Taranin, you're going out
11 and you're supposed to make a statement." That's how people were taken
12 out. And those who were not afraid would sometimes look through the
13 window and then they would usually gather them in front of the gate. Five
14 or ten or whoever, the number of prisoners that were supposed to be taken
15 out, they would go to the gate, and then -- and then they would
16 interrogate them in their own way, the way they know how to do this. I
17 don't know. Those who listened, they heard moans and cries and - I don't
18 know - things like that.
19 Q. The people who were taken out in the way that you've described,
20 did you see them returned to the rooms?
21 A. Some were returned and some were taken to isolation cells, and I
22 could not see all of this. I mean, you had to follow it in order to
23 know. I never dared go to the window to see. I don't know. It's not
24 only me, that I didn't dare watch this; many didn't dare watch this.
25 Q. Were there also people taken out in this way who were not returned
1 to the rooms or isolation cells whom you didn't see again at KP Dom?
2 A. There were such cases. That's what people say, people who
3 watched. I really did not follow this. I couldn't see it. But there was
4 quite a bit of that.
5 Q. After you worked in the kitchen, did you have another work
7 A. After that, I was told to go to the workshop because I'm a
8 mechanic. That is my basic craft. That is what I originally trained
9 for. So I was sent to the workshop. And there seemed to have been a bare
10 minimum in the kitchen, so some Serbs were brought in. Only I and Ismir
11 Hadic [phoen] remained in the kitchen. He was sent to the laundry from
12 there and I was sent to the workshop to help his father, Hamdo, who worked
13 in the workshop before that. And then there was also this man called
14 Sefko Kubat there too.
15 MS. KUO: For the Court's reference, Sefko Kubat is mentioned at
16 Schedule E, number 37.
17 Q. What did you do in the mechanic's workshop?
18 A. All the cars that were there, primarily these special trucks for
19 transporting furniture.
20 Q. What did you do?
21 A. We maintained these vehicles, mechanics, tyres, everything. All
22 three of us worked on that.
23 Q. Was this workshop inside the KP Dom premises or somewhere else?
24 A. It's not within the compound where we were; it's in another
25 compound. That was also closed. This was a special workshop that had a
1 mechanical shop, a locksmith shop, and also a lathe shop.
2 Q. In order to get to that workshop, did you have to go outside the
3 KP Dom gate?
4 A. We had to go outside the main gate. We would be lined up one by
5 one, and as we were to go out, we were all checked.
6 Q. Who put you on this work assignment; do you know?
7 A. As far as I know, this assignment was worked out by Savo Todovic.
8 Q. Were you ever paid for the work that you did as a mechanic while
9 you were at KP Dom?
10 A. Well, yes, if I can say so. They gave me an extra slice of bread
11 and sometimes they would spread something on that slice of bread. This
12 was an additional bonus for those who worked in the mechanic's workshop.
13 Q. Did you choose to be part of the mechanics workshop?
14 A. There was no choice. It depended on the assignment, where they
15 assigned you to. That was it.
16 Q. And was the same true for your work in the kitchen, that you had
17 no choice?
18 A. How can I make my own choice when I'm in a camp? When I'm told to
19 do something, I have to do it, and that's it.
20 Q. When you worked in the kitchen, did you receive extra food?
21 A. I didn't. I tried to be impartial. I tried to steal something if
22 my head cook or my policeman would not be watching and would not see me.
23 Q. Were you able to?
24 A. I succeeded several times to soak a slice of bread into hot water,
25 and then when nobody was watching, to eat up that slice of bread, hot and
1 moist, real fast.
2 Q. Did you lose weight while you were at the KP Dom?
3 A. About 18 or 19 kilos. I'm not sure that's how much I lost.
4 Q. While you were working at the mechanics workshop, did anyone try
5 to escape from the KP Dom?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you describe who that was and what the consequences were?
8 A. Enes, whose last name was -- I'll remember the last name. He was
9 a locksmith. He works -- he worked at the locksmith shop; that is to say,
10 within the same compound where I was but in a different department. He
11 managed to -- because in that compound everything was destroyed on the
12 site facing the main road, so it later turned out that around 2.00 he
13 managed to get out and simply pass by as the group of civilians who were
14 getting out of the hospital and all that, and then he managed to reach the
15 neighbourhood of Brod, and then that's where he stayed. And then the next
16 day he wanted to proceed, but that's where they caught up with him and
17 brought him back.
18 Q. What happened to the rest of you in the mechanics workshop when it
19 was discovered that he had escaped?
20 A. Bad problems. It was hard to survive then. There was a lot of
21 pressure brought to bear on us. None of us knew that he would try to
22 escape. When we went to lunch, we realised that Enes was not there, and
23 then they asked us, Savo Todovic asked us, "Where is he?" We didn't
24 know. He asked some guards. They didn't know either.
25 We went to have lunch, and from there we went to the room where we
1 slept. Savo Todovic ordered that we all go back to in front of the gate,
2 and the policeman returned all of us to the gate. And when we got to the
3 gate, Savo Todovic was there, waiting for us. He wore weapons. He
4 carried weapons. He had an automatic rifle, and he said, "Whoever does
5 not say who Enes is, whoever does not say where Enes escaped will be
6 killed." And he swore -- he said that he had two sons. I don't know
7 until this very day whether he really has two sons or not. He swore by
8 his sons that he would kill all of us in two or three minutes if they did
9 not -- if they did not tell him, that they would be killed. And we were
10 all looking at each other and yelling, "Whoever knows should speak up."
11 But nobody really knew.
12 We were so lucky, at least that's the way I see it. Boro Ivanovic
13 came and he said, "Savo, what's going on?" And he said, "Well, one of
14 them escaped." "Which one?" And they said the name. And he said that we
15 should all go to the metal shop. We all went to the metal shop, and we
16 were lined up against a wall, and we were supposed to say where he escaped
17 and how and when. First Ivanovic asked me. And Ivanovic said to me,
18 "Taranin, I know you as a man, as a colleague, a huntsman. Be honest and
19 say where he is." I answered him, I swear by my own child that I did not
20 know where he was. I can say that until the present day. I did not
21 know. I swear I did not know.
22 Then he asked a few others, and they did not know, and then said
23 that we should go to the room where we slept. That's exactly what we
24 did. We all went to the room. However, Savo ordered all of us to go to
25 the solitary confinement cells, and that's exactly what happened. About
1 nine of us were placed in one isolation cell. And he said he would come
2 later to interrogate us so that we would say where he was, and if we were
3 not to say where he was, we would be tried. Well, we were tried, indeed.
4 Somebody got 20 days, somebody got a month, somebody got even more than
5 that in solitary confinement.
6 The next day, luckily, they found him. They brought him in. We
7 didn't know about this. We did stand trial, and I got 25 days of solitary
8 confinement. After three days, they took us out of the solitary
9 confinement cell. We didn't know that they had found him. We were up
10 there, in front of the kitchen, on a plateau. He was standing there.
11 Warden Krnojelac, Mico, was there, too. Savo Todovic was there. The
12 commander of the guards, Rasevic, and another guard was there, I can't
13 remember which one. Todovic said to me, "Taranin, get out." And I got
14 out of the line. He said, "Do you know Zekovic, your friend?" I said
15 "Yes, I know him." And then he said, "And you didn't know that he'd
16 escaped?" And I tell you until this day, I did not know. Here is the
17 gentleman, he himself, he can say whether I knew. And he said, "No one
18 knew. When I want to do something like that, I don't tell anyone."
19 I wanted to tell him another thing, and he wouldn't allow me to.
20 He said, "Taranin, there's nothing for you to say. Go back into the
21 line." And then he said, "Don't try to escape. Nobody can escape from
22 here. Not even a bird can get out of this Serb state."
23 And then he took us back to the isolation cell, and he threatened
24 that he would cut our existing food rations by 50 per cent. I had great
25 luck in managing to survive six days in this solitary confinement cell. I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 was sent out. I was exchanged. I was sent to Rudo so that I would
2 proceed to Gorazde. And that morning I was taken out of solitary
3 confinement. I was taken to the gate, and they said that I would be going
4 to Rudo for an exchange, which is exactly what happened.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, during the course of that very long answer,
6 the witness said that he had been asked by, I think, Todovic, "You know
7 Zekovic." Now, is that the person -- is that the name that he was
8 thinking of before? He's been referring to this person who escaped as
9 Enes. It may be necessary to link them up so it's not confused with the
10 Enes on Schedule C.
11 MS. KUO: Yes, that's a good point, Your Honour.
12 Q. Is Zekovic the name of the person who escaped?
13 A. Yes, Enes Zekovic. Thank you. Yes, that's right, Enes Zekovic.
14 I know his father, too. I know his entire family.
15 Q. When you were placed in the solitary confinement cell, you said
16 there were nine of you in one cell. Were you able to sit down or lie down
17 in those circumstances?
18 A. No. It was impossible to lie down or to sit because an isolation
19 cell -- I don't know whether all of you know about this, an isolation is
20 an isolation cell. It is small, narrow. It's for one person, and nine of
21 us were thrown in there, and it was impossible to sit or to lie down.
22 Q. How did you sleep?
23 A. Well, if you could -- if you could sleep while you were standing,
24 then you slept, but you can't sleep when you're so afraid.
25 Q. And you said you were in solitary confinement for six days. Were
1 all nine of you in the same cell for six days?
2 A. Until I left, all of us were in the same isolation cell. They
3 stayed after me. I don't know when they got out, but thanks to this bit
4 of luck, I managed to get out on the sixth day, so I did not spend all the
5 25 days that I was supposed to spend there.
6 Q. Do you know if anybody was beaten as a result of the escape of
7 Mr. Zekovic?
8 A. When I was in the isolation cell, Todovic came with a guard. I
9 could not see him. I could not recognise his voice, either. I was in an
10 isolation cell.
11 Savo asked one of them there, I think his name was Lija. He also
12 worked in a servicing station before. He asked him who his best friend
13 was, and as far as I could hear, somebody slapped that Lija in the face so
14 that he would say who he was. He said that I was his good friend, and
15 that I played cards with him, that I played gin rummy with him, and that I
16 would know best.
17 Q. With whom? Whose best friend?
18 A. Enes Zekovic, because it was all before they had -- before they
19 caught him. It was then that Todovic came with a guard to interrogate at
20 the other end of the corridor where solitary confinement are, where Lija
21 was kept - his surname was Lisica - and then they questioned him
22 separately there.
23 Q. Did anything happen to you?
24 A. No.
25 MS. KUO: For the Court's cross reference, the incident that has
1 been described with the escaped detainee is in the indictment at paragraph
3 Q. After six days in solitary confinement, you said you were taken to
4 Rudo. How was it that you were taken there? How did that come about?
5 Who took you there?
6 A. On the sixth day of my confinement, around nine or ten in the
7 morning, in the corridor one could hear a voice asking, "Where is
8 Taranin?" And the guard who was with him said, "In this cell here." I
9 don't know which number that cell had. I do not know to this day. And
10 then he said, "Well, let him out." And he opened the door and said,
11 "Taranin, come out."
12 There was Prodanovic, an inspector. That is what we called him,
13 the man who used to work for the KP Dom before. And he said, "Taranin,
14 have you got any belongings with you? In ten minutes, be at the gate."
15 And I said I had a few things, I think a coat, a pair of socks. "May I
16 take that?" He said, "Yes, and be downstairs in ten minutes."
17 So I hurried. I didn't know where I was going, or why I was
18 going. And when I reached the gate, that Prodanovic was downstairs. And
19 downstairs I found quite a number of people. There were about 17 of us
20 when I counted us later on. We were all lined up, and they began to check
21 various people, to search various people, and I was one of them.
22 And Prodanovic frisked me and let me through the gate, and we
23 lined up in front of the gate. And then an army van came up and with
24 three policemen and two civilians. One of them was a driver, and another
25 one was, I guess, a mechanic, and the rest were armed, some kind of
1 military police.
2 So Todovic called out our names, and as our names would be called
3 out, we boarded the van. And when we were in the van, one of those guards
4 also came up and said, "Pull all the curtains. Don't you dare watch, and
5 just you may look only ahead." And he got off, and then Todovic came up,
6 and then another guard came who perhaps was the head guard and called out
7 our names and we responded. And after that we set off through Celebici,
8 Tuzla, Pljevlja, and thus reached Rudo.
9 Q. Were you told why you were being taken to Rudo?
10 A. I learnt when I left, and it was Prodanovic who told me that,
11 "Well, good luck to you. You're going to Rudo to be exchanged, and then
12 on to Gorazde."
13 Q. Just so for the Court's benefit, where is Rudo located in
14 reference to Foca, in which direction and how far?
15 A. It is towards the east, towards Serbia. It is about 120, 130
16 kilometres from Foca. You go towards Gorazde, then you turn towards
17 Visegrad, across Bijele Brdo towards Turbats [phoen] which separates
18 Priboj from Rudo, or you take another road before Visegrad to Medzedza, or
19 rather, before Medzedza to the right up the Lim river, and that is how you
20 can also reach Rudo. So it's somewhere close to the border with Serbia.
21 Q. Where in Rudo were you taken?
22 A. I knew Rudo from before, so I recognised the place when we arrived
23 there. They took us to the cultural centre and put us in the cellar
25 Q. How long were you kept in that cellar?
1 A. I wouldn't know exactly, but I should say that we spent not less
2 than eight or nine months in Rudo.
3 Q. Was there anybody in the cellar when you arrived?
4 A. No. There was nobody there. It was quite empty. But before us
5 somebody had been there. Whether Serbs or Muslims, I don't know, but one
6 could see some cardboard boxes and one could see traces of blood on them.
7 Q. After your group of 17 were brought there, was anyone else brought
8 to join you?
9 A. Yes. The first one was Durmo, a man of 83, who reportedly, about
10 a month before we arrived there, had surrendered to the Rudo authorities
11 and who was kept in the barracks. But when we arrived, he was brought
12 over to that same cellar.
13 Q. Did anyone else join you there?
14 A. Yes. When they -- when we were told that we would be exchanged -
15 however, it somehow couldn't be pulled off because of our authorities or
16 somebody else - they would not take us as civilians in exchange for some
17 combatants from Rudo who had been captured. And then we were joined by
18 two men from Gorazde who had been caught somewhere at Grebak and another
19 man who was -- and Sefko, who was 60 something.
20 Q. You mentioned civilians. Were the whole group of you from KP Dom
22 A. All those that I mentioned so far were civilians.
23 Q. Were you allowed to leave the cellar in Rudo?
24 A. Not for a while, but that did not last long. Presumably their
25 chief - I don't know his name. I forgot what he was called - but I heard
1 he used to be a professional guard in the central prison in Sarajevo and
2 that he had been assigned as our warden. And as far as we could say, he
3 was quite decent. He did not keep us there long. He told us to come out,
4 to do something, to sweep the streets in the town, to remove the garbage,
5 and then sent us to pick fruit - apples, plums - to go to the barracks to
6 do something, so that we managed to be active, to come out into the air,
7 to do something with ourselves.
8 Q. You called the person in charge of this place in Rudo a warden.
9 Did you regard your situation in Rudo as being in another prison camp or
10 detention centre?
11 A. Well, how shall I put it? That was the situation that we were
12 in. The accommodation was worse than in Foca, but on the other hand, the
13 food was much better and we could go out. And it happened to be at a time
14 when there was plenty of fruit around. So as I've said, the accommodation
15 was much worse in Rudo, but on the other hand, the food was much better.
16 Q. Did the warden ever take action against anybody who mistreated you
17 at Rudo?
18 A. Well, rather pretty decent; I have to say that. There were some
19 attempts, perhaps by some civilians, who would sometimes try to do
20 something, but owing to those, we survived. It was all right, even though
21 there were some incidents.
22 Well, I can tell you about the incident that I experienced. It
23 was one day in the barracks when they had assigned some of us to remove
24 some machines that were standing in front of some administrative building
25 because General Pero Skopljak was allegedly coming, so that we should
1 clear the area, make some order. And we went to do that and we were
2 finishing the job when a group of soldiers turned up, and one of them came
3 to me and said, "Well, how is it?" And I said, "It's all right." And
4 when I said that I'm fine, then he kicked me with his shoe on the
5 right-hand side twice. And when he kicked me the second time, I lost air
6 and I fell. And two minutes later, he hit another one in the face, in the
7 eye, but they then carried me to the kitchen and I came to and they gave
8 me some tea or something and took me to where we were accommodated. And
9 the next day they took me to see a doctor, and he found that I had three
10 broken ribs. And they gave me a sick leave of some 14, 15 days to
11 recover. I didn't have to work or anything.
12 Q. When you say "they" carried you out and gave you tea, who was
14 A. Well, those were some of mine, that is, one of the guards who had
15 escorted us, called Ivanovic, from Strpci. And I guess another one of
16 those soldiers helped him to carry me, and one of those folk of mine, such
17 as Isakovic and some others. So that when I came to, I was in the
18 kitchen. I didn't know what had happened. I felt pain on the left-hand
19 side. I couldn't really touch it. So that was that.
20 Q. Did the person you described as the warden at Rudo come speak to
21 you about the incident, tell you anything about whether it would happen
22 again in the future?
23 A. He came; at least, that's what guard Ivanovic told us. He told
24 not only me, everybody, "Taranin, I don't think this will happen again.
25 And if we see that there's any danger, then you will not go there," and he
1 will tell the commander to remove such man from those positions, because
2 the warden won't give any more men to help out if such things happen
3 again. So I can only thank him.
4 Q. After the nine months or so in Rudo, where were you taken?
5 A. For about two days I worked in that army workshop. They asked me
6 to try to repair a vehicle, and they had on old mechanic and we succeeded
7 in doing that. And then a policeman came in a van and asked to take me
8 somewhere. I got scared, and this man said, "Why are you taking him?"
9 And he said, "Well, I need Taranin." And I said, "Well, I am not
10 Taranin." But he said, "You are being exchanged." Then I said, "Yes,
11 right, so that's me." And they took me up there and I saw some 10 or 15
12 men of them and they all had bags over their shoulders because they were
13 getting ready for exchange. And I said, "So where are you taking us?"
14 And he said, "To Sarajevo." We were all happy and we were all merry, and
15 two vans arrived, so they put us onto those vans in the afternoon to take
16 us to Sarajevo.
17 Q. Where were you taken?
18 A. They took us to Kula.
19 Q. [Microphone not activated]
20 A. It's a prison. It was a prison before the war.
21 Q. And where was it located?
22 A. It is near Sarajevo, or rather quite close to the airport. There
23 was a restaurant, Kula. There was a prison there and they had a building
24 unit there, but it was a large prison. It was mostly a prison for minor
25 offences, for misdemeanours before the war, and that is where they put us.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. How long were you kept at the Kula prison camp?
2 A. I cannot really tell you exactly, but it was a couple of months or
3 so. So sometime on the 6th or 7th of October I left that camp, at a time
4 of a major exchange of about four or five hundred people. They had
5 brought civilians from Rogatica, and I suppose it was thanks to them that
6 we were exchanged. We were three or four hundred.
7 Q. What year was that?
8 A. 1994. Let me think. 6th or 7th of October, 1994.
9 Q. As a result of the time that you spent at the KP Dom prison camp,
10 what physical effects did you suffer?
11 A. I fared very badly, as shown by the state of my health, which I
12 cannot even describe you. It would be the medical commissioner, people
13 who treated me for years after I came out, could describe it much better
14 than I could.
15 Q. Was there -- how did you suffer emotionally or psychologically?
16 A. Very severe. There was a doctor, specialist, who said quite
17 openly that they were very happy to rehabilitate me psychologically. They
18 tried to send me to a school, but I simply couldn't remember. My memory
19 failed me. I still cannot speak any (redacted). And I was a mechanic. I
20 knew all those things and I tried to learn that terminology in (redacted), but
21 I cannot do it. And the doctor said, "Well, we're happy that we managed
22 to rehabilitate you and help you to communicate with the (redacted) at least
23 something, but you cannot go back." I'm still suffering consequences. A
24 couple of years ago I suffered a stroke and they barely managed to pull me
25 out. But I am retired now. They gave me a pension because I'm unable to
1 communicate properly.
2 Q. Was there a time when you were suicidal?
3 A. In the early days, yes, quite often you think about it: Kill
4 yourself, kill yourself. But, well, one never stops hoping. And I
5 managed to live, and I cannot but thank those who helped me live, find my
7 MS. KUO: Thank you very much, sir. Those are all the questions
8 we have.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination?
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I think I
11 will be very brief and I will do my best to finish by 4.00.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:
13 Q. Mr. Taranin, I see that you are upset, so if you want a break, if
14 you need some time to recover, please tell me.
15 A. No, no, no. Go on.
16 Q. Good afternoon. I am one of the counsel of the accused Krnojelac
17 and my name is Mihajlo Bakrac. Can we proceed?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I shall be very brief. I merely want to clarify a couple of
20 things, nothing more than that. A moment ago when my learned friend asked
21 you about your departure from the KP Dom to Rudo, you said then that when
22 you were in front of the gate there were three military policemen and that
23 Todovic then read out the names from the list. All I want is to clarify.
24 When you say "Todovic," do you mean Savo Todovic?
25 A. That's right, Savo Todovic.
1 Q. Thank you. My learned friend also helped me when she asked you
2 about the statement that you made to the OTP investigators, to whom you
3 said that Mr. Krnojelac was a warden on paper, and you explained what you
4 meant by that. I want to ask you an additional question with reference to
5 the same statement. Is it true that when you spoke about the working
6 group, that you said that it was set up by Savo Todovic, who commanded us
7 and other staff in the KP Dom? Is that true?
8 A. It is.
9 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in that same statement, referring to
10 Velibor Ostojic and Vojislav Maksimovic, you said, "In my view," that is,
11 that in your view, those two were the principal culprits because they held
12 leading political offices, and that it was by no accident that Todovic,
13 who was -- that Todovic, who was Ostojic's relative, and that that was how
14 he was assigned to a high post in the KP Dom? I know that they come from
15 the same village, from Celebici.
16 A. I don't know if they are related, but I know they come from the
17 same place.
18 Q. But tell us if it is true what I read out to you.
19 A. Well, the whole Europe, not only we, know that he was one of the
20 leading Serbs, one of the leading -- one of the political leaders of
22 JUDGE HUNT: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Bakrac, I
23 think the interpreter is about three questions behind you. I know you're
24 trying to hurry to finish it this afternoon, but I think it's best to take
25 it slowly. If necessary, we come back in the morning. But you are not
1 giving the interpreters any chance at all there.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'm really
3 trying to save time and expenses, not to have the witness back tomorrow
4 for just -- because of one or two questions. My apologies.
5 JUDGE HUNT: I understand, but it's more important that we get it
6 down properly.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I agree, and it is
8 also in the interests of the Defence.
9 Q. I shall repeat: Is it true that you said -- I read a long
10 sentence to you so as to keep it within the context, but the gist of it is
11 that you said that it was by no accident that Todovic, who was Ostojic's
12 relative, was given a high post in the KP Dom? Because I know that they
13 both come from the same village of Celebici.
14 A. They come -- it is possible that they come from the same village
15 and that he was probably assigned by him, because Savo Todovic used to
16 work for the KP Dom before, so that was the duty that he had that. He
17 already worked in the KP Dom, so it does not mean -- it doesn't have to
18 mean that.
19 Q. Is it true that in your statement given to the state Security
20 Centre in Sarajevo on the 25th of October, 1994, you said:
21 "The prison warden was Krnojelac, his deputy Todovic, and he
22 was -- he had the main say in everything. He was responsible for
23 accommodation, for assignment of jobs, for harassment of people. He was
24 the one who had the last say"?
25 A. I wouldn't say so. Perhaps you interpreted it wrongly or read
1 it -- or misread it. I wouldn't say so. Krnojelac was the warden of the
2 prison and his first name was -- I forget it. No. Mico. That's what all
3 the Focas called him: Mico. His deputy was Todovic, who used to work
4 there before. Of the inner compound, it was Todovic, as can be seen from
5 all the statements, including mine. He, yes, he assigned people. Whether
6 he did on his own or whether he received some guidelines from the warden,
7 I do not know that, but in the compound he did that, yes.
8 Q. My question to you is whether you stated this to the public
9 Security Centre, and is this your signature? And I shall now ask the
10 usher to show you the statement that you gave to a person who speaks the
11 same language as you do and if this signature on that document is yours.
12 A. Where is that sentence? Let me see. I want to see what it says
13 here. Where is that sentence? The signature is mine; I agree with that.
14 But I'm telling you --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please pause
16 between question and answer.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Just both of you stop. Just stop. You are both
18 speaking over each other and the translators are having great
19 difficulties. Now, if you are going to keep up this speed, we'll just
20 adjourn. Please do keep down the rate of questions. Wait for the answer,
21 wait for the translators to finish the translation.
22 Now, Mr. Taranin, you said that it was your signature, but -- and
23 you were going to add something. What was it that you wanted to add?
24 A. I said that Krnojelac was the warden of the prison, that his
25 deputy was Savo Todovic, that everything that -- that all the jobs inside
1 were performed by Todovic, whether he received any guidelines from
2 Krnojelac or not, but he was the one who assigned duties and all the rest,
3 and that is how it was.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness wanted to
5 read, and I insist that he read the sentence in the 27th line from the
6 word "statement," and it begins with the words, "The warden of the prison
7 was Krnojelac." I want him to read out that sentence.
8 Perhaps I could show the usher where the sentence begins.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Why don't you read it out to him and ask him if he
10 agrees that that's in the statement. It would be much quicker.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Right, I shall read it verbatim as
12 the statement says.
13 Q. The prison warden was Krnojelac?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And the deputy Todovic who was number one for everything,
16 for accommodation, assignment of jobs, and harassment of
17 people, his opinion was invited in everything?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So you mean this is correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 You mentioned today the incident with Mr. Zekovic's escape. You
22 also mentioned somebody called Boro Ivanovic. Will you please explain who
23 was Boro Ivanovic, and what was his duty, if you know it.
24 A. I do not know what he was because I wasn't a part of their circle,
25 so I don't know that. But I know Boro Ivanovic as a civilian, as a
1 hunter, as a colleague. I do not know what rank he had, but I heard that
2 he was a security Major. However, that need not be true. That is only
3 what I heard. But he saved us because, otherwise, there might have been
4 some consequences.
5 Q. If I understood you well, you mentioned ranks, so you mean he was
6 part of the military structure?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. You're welcome.
10 Q. When you came to the KP Dom the first time, did you know that
11 there were some Serb inmates there, serving their terms following
13 A. Before the war, yes, there were.
14 Q. I'm asking you, did you find some of those individuals in the KP
15 Dom when you arrived there?
16 A. Yes, three. One was very sick, and two more.
17 Q. That is what you knew about them?
18 A. Yes. There were three of them. There was nobody else.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have three, four,
20 maybe five questions more. It is 4.00. It is up to you to decide.
21 JUDGE HUNT: I think that you have given the translators a hard
22 enough time already. We'll adjourn now till 9.30 in the morning.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m., to
24 be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of January,
25 2001, at 9.30 a.m.