Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1749

1 Thursday, 18 January 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Judge Mumba, as the Vice-President of the Tribunal,

10 has other authorised Tribunal business this morning which was unavoidable,

11 unfortunately, so she will not be here and we are proceeding in accordance

12 with Rule 15 bis of the Tribunal's Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

13 Now, Mr. Bakrac, you are cross-examining.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]

18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Taranin.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. We will continue from where we broke off yesterday. In your

21 answers to the Prosecutor's questions you spoke about food as well. You

22 mentioned that you got bread and some kind of soup. However, in the

23 statements you gave to the investigators of the OTP, you said that for

24 breakfast sometimes you got eggs, that you got beans, rice,

25 potatoes, pasta; is that correct?

Page 1750

1 A. Yes, there was some of that, but that was at a late stage and we

2 got that only for about 15 days.

3 Q. Thank you. As for hygiene, is it correct that you said to the

4 investigators of the OTP that at the very outset until the autumn, the

5 hygienic conditions were not bad, that after that the pipes froze and also

6 the central heating system went down when the boiler broke; is that

7 correct?

8 A. As for hygiene, our accommodation was normal, but we could not use

9 the bathrooms or anything. We could not take baths. I said that probably

10 the boiler room was broken, so we could not take baths and there was no

11 water in the pipes, et cetera.

12 Q. So what I read from your statement is correct?

13 A. Well, you heard what I said to you just now.

14 Q. Thank you. Also in the statement that you gave to the

15 investigators of the OTP, you mentioned 11 persons who, when the

16 International Red Cross came to the KP Dom, were at the bakery. Were

17 those persons brought in and were they registered on that day by the

18 International Red Cross?

19 A. These 11 persons were walking towards the bakery and they were put

20 up somewhere there. I could not see this when the International Red

21 Cross -- however, when my brother, who was in that group, told me about

22 it, or rather somebody's brother who was in that group told me about it,

23 and then they were registered at their request. Unfortunately, some of

24 those persons who were registered, although they were registered, are

25 still missing.

Page 1751

1 Q. Did I understand you correctly: They were registered on that day

2 when the International Red Cross came?

3 A. They hid them. They hid them, but this brother of

4 his -- remember, I told you that had to tell the International Red Cross

5 that these 11 people were being hidden.

6 Q. My question is whether they were registered later during the

7 course of that same day.

8 A. I don't know. I was not there, so I cannot tell you for sure.

9 Q. How long did the delegation of the International Red Cross stay at

10 the KP Dom?

11 A. I did not see any. The first one, actually, I saw was at the very

12 beginning of the war. How should I put this? The 29th or 30th. That's

13 when the first International Red Cross came. And we were really

14 surprised. I managed to register among five of them. Later on they

15 didn't come again. Perhaps in a few months they came again, but then I

16 never saw them again after that, because I did different things, including

17 in the kitchen, so I never saw them again. They never called me to come

18 in again.

19 Q. I am going to read your sentence. "These 11 persons were returned

20 to the detention facilities and were registered."

21 A. Possibly, possibly, but I did not see this, so I can't say.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, just wait for the pause at the end of the

23 question before you start the answer. The translators were well behind

24 you there.

25 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

Page 1752

1 A. Thank you, thank you.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. I would just like to clarify something. You mentioned the 29th,

4 30th. Which month is this?

5 A. April.

6 Q. What about the year?

7 A. 1992.

8 Q. Thank you. Yesterday in your statement, you mentioned

9 Mr. Starovic, Koprivica, and Vladicic, interrogators of the KP Dom. You

10 said that you knew that he worked earlier on at the MUP as an inspector,

11 too. Do you know what the other two, Starovic and Koprivica, did before

12 the conflict broke out?

13 A. I'm not very familiar with that, but I know about Vladicic because

14 we were great friends; we were colleagues when it was necessary. He

15 worked at the SUP as an inspector.

16 Q. Do you remember when you saw them?

17 A. Yes, yes, yes. I could not recognise Koprivica immediately, but

18 he made it known to me that I knew him and that he knew me. Later on I

19 figured it out. But I knew Starovic, Starovic is the brother-in-law or

20 son-in-law of my director, Mr. Stankovic, so I knew him well, but then I

21 didn't know where he exactly worked.

22 Q. With the permission of the Court, I'm going to ask you once again

23 to hear out what I have to ask, and then wait for it to be fully

24 interpreted, and then answer, please.

25 When you saw the mentioned three men, what were they wearing?

Page 1753

1 A. I cannot say exactly. I'm not sure whether they were in uniform

2 or not, I don't know. I was afraid, so I wasn't all that careful because

3 all of this took place within one minute.

4 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you also mentioned that you did not watch

5 people being brought in and taken away and that you were afraid of hearing

6 the beatings. Were there other persons in your room who did not watch

7 this, who did not listen to this, and can you mention who are these

8 persons from your room, because you spent time together and I'm sure you

9 talked.

10 A. There were people from my room who did watch, Kumor, who's in

11 France today, was taken out of the KP Dom early; he was taken away by a

12 man. And he listened the most, and he wanted to tell us about it, how he

13 heard the moans and the screams, and we wouldn't allow him. Especially

14 Husein Lojo, who is a professor, did not want him to tell us about this

15 because he listened to all of this. Kumor Safet is his name. If he were

16 to come here, he could tell you the best about all of this that went on

17 because he listened the most.

18 Q. If I understood you correctly, Kumor Safet is the person who

19 listened and watched and told the rest of you about this?

20 A. I don't know whether he could see anything, but he did listen.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Look, sir, I know it's difficult, and I know you want

22 to give your answer, but you are not giving that pause. Do you have the

23 transcript coming up on your screen there in front of you? If you just

24 wait till you see the typing finish you'll realise that the translation is

25 also finishing, so wait for the typing to stop before you answer.

Page 1754

1 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

2 A. Thank you, thank you. And I do apologise.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. You said that Kumor Safet is the one who listened. Can you tell

5 me which room you were in, and who was with you in that room?

6 A. In the room with me there were six men in one small room with

7 seven beds, Room 15. Lojo was with me, Husein Lojo; his brother; Tajko

8 Tafro; Crneta, a forestry technician; Causevic, I don't know his first

9 name exactly; Safet Kumor; and I was there as well.

10 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you also said that in front of the KP Dom on

11 the banks of the River Drina there was a dump where garbage was thrown.

12 Is that near the bridge?

13 A. It's not far away from the bridge.

14 Q. Was garbage thrown from the bridge as well?

15 A. I don't know. It would be hard to throw from the bridge because

16 you cannot have freight vehicles, trucks, coming onto the bridge for that

17 purpose because it's a very narrow bridge.

18 Q. Is it your claim that freight trucks cannot cross that bridge?

19 A. They could not at that time because it was smaller, and also it

20 was dangerous, so only small cars were allowed to pass.

21 Q. How come you know that if you were detained at the KP Dom?

22 A. I lived in Foca for a long time. I was born in Foca. Perhaps you

23 don't know that, or perhaps you don't know the geography of the town of

24 Foca. You're pretending not to know it.

25 Q. That is to say that before the conflict broke out, military trucks

Page 1755

1 could not cross that bridge?

2 A. I don't know what they did during the war. Perhaps they expanded

3 the bridge or enhanced it in some way, I don't know, during the war.

4 Q. Yesterday when you said that you were called to come to the

5 administrative building, you said that you had to take off your white cap

6 and white uniform. Why did you wear it?

7 A. I did not say white coat, I said white cap.

8 Q. I do apologise. I understood that you also had a white coat.

9 Perhaps I made a mistake, I'm sorry.

10 A. It's all right.

11 Q. Why did you wear a white cap?

12 A. Because of hygiene, so that my hair would not fall into

13 something. That's what my boss, Krsto Krnojelac, told me to do.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

15 further questions.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Re-examination, Ms. Kuo?

17 MS. KUO: None, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You may leave

19 now.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. And I do apologise

21 if I did something wrong, if I offended someone.

22 JUDGE HUNT: We understand entirely, sir.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your understanding.

24 Thank you.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 1756

1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, are you taking the next witness?

2 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE HUNT: It might have arrived at the time where we should

4 suggest to the Prosecution that they spend more effort on the specific

5 incidents which have been pleaded and less upon the general matters.

6 We've had a lot of evidence now about such things as the crowded

7 conditions at particular periods, the lack of food, the difficulties with

8 hygiene, the lack of medical care in a general sense, beatings in a

9 general sense, the labour; and with all due respect, despite the

10 cross-examination this morning, I don't see that those are really in any

11 dispute.

12 The evidence about the outbreak of the conflict in Foca, nothing

13 has been put to suggest that there wasn't a conflict. We are not

14 concerned with who was responsible for starting it. The issue that has

15 been raised as to whether the Muslims were also armed, well, there can be

16 an armed conflict from both sides. Nobody is suggesting that we have to

17 determine whether that was right or wrong.

18 So could we get back to what's actually in the indictment, the

19 pleaded incidents? We've got a number of beatings that are pleaded in the

20 indictment which haven't been dealt with or which you may want to give

21 some evidence, some supporting evidence on. Labour on the accused's house

22 is an issue which can be dealt with more fully, certainly any particular

23 medical incidents that have been pleaded. But otherwise we have amassing

24 a huge amount of evidence which is not really in dispute about a lot of

25 these issues.

Page 1757












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Page 1758

1 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour. I think that's the general approach

2 that we're beginning to adopt now that the pattern evidence seems to have

3 been established reasonably well, and I will concentrate on those

4 particular incidents that --

5 JUDGE HUNT: If anything is really disputed by the accused, then

6 you may certainly deal with that in as much detail as you need. But if

7 something arises during the course of the Defence case where an issue is

8 really disputed for the first time, then you have automatically, really, a

9 case in reply on it. And I'm sure from the way in which Defence counsel

10 have conducted themselves in this case, they realise that they have to

11 dispute what is in dispute during the course of the cross-examination, and

12 they appear to have done so with, I'm glad to say, careful economy, for

13 which we are grateful. But we are, I think, getting to the stage where we

14 can say the general matters, you have enough evidence. If that's the best

15 you can do, you've done it.

16 MR. SMITH: That's the general approach I'll adopt today and

17 hopefully it will be as efficient as it can be.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Now, this witness has protective

19 measures, a pseudonym and facial distortion; is that right?

20 MR. SMITH: That's correct, Your Honour. And I've also placed on

21 the pseudonym page in front of him just a couple of place names which may

22 assist in the identification of who he is, so I might just refer to them

23 briefly by a pseudonym as well.

24 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Well, this document, which is headed

25 FWS-08, with the various pseudonyms and place names, will be Exhibit P408

Page 1759

1 and it will be under seal.

2 MR. SMITH: And I think, Your Honour, the only pseudonym that in

3 fact will be used will be a pseudonym A in relation to geography. The

4 rest should be --

5 JUDGE HUNT: Has somebody explained to the witness that he should

6 keep a careful watch on this?

7 MR. SMITH: We've discussed a couple of approaches, and he

8 hasn't -- he's not aware today whether or not we were going to go into

9 closed session or in fact have an approach like this, but I'll briefly

10 explain it to him when he arrives.

11 JUDGE HUNT: There's been no suggestion of a closed session.

12 MR. SMITH: No.

13 JUDGE HUNT: No. Right. Well, may we have the witness, please.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE HUNT: Will you please make the solemn declaration. It's on

16 the card that's been handed to you.


18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. Sit down, please.

22 Yes, Mr. Smith.

23 MR. SMITH: I'll just ask that Exhibit P408 be placed in front of

24 the witness.

25 Examined by Mr. Smith:

Page 1760

1 Q. Good morning, Witness. In front of you is a piece of paper,

2 Exhibit P408, with a name and date of birth at the top of it. Are they

3 your personal details?

4 A. Yes, and they're correct.

5 Q. And below that you'll see a couple of place names with letters

6 alongside of them. Particularly in relation to the first place name, when

7 I ask you questions that would relate to that place, could you use the

8 letter A, as it's listed on the paper.

9 A. I understand.

10 Q. And also at the base of that page there's some other names with

11 some corresponding numbers. If you'd like to refer to those people in

12 your testimony, could you try and remember to use those numbers. I'll try

13 and remind you as well.

14 A. I understand.

15 Q. In April 1992 you lived in town A with your wife and children; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. And you're a Bosnian Muslim by ethnicity?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You were a manager of a business at that time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And were you a member of any political party in 1992?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were you a member of any military unit?

25 A. No.

Page 1761

1 Q. And in April 1992 did you leave your hometown, that's town A, with

2 your family?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And why did you leave that town? Just briefly.

5 A. In principle, I'm a pacifist. I did not believe that everything

6 that did happen would happen. When I finally realised what would happen,

7 I wanted to get my family out. They could not take everything in town A,

8 everything that was going on in town A, where we should have stayed.

9 Q. And briefly, what was going on in town A that made you want to

10 leave?

11 A. People were buying food, and I didn't do that. When I realised

12 that I had to buy food for my family, it was too late and there was

13 nowhere to buy it. Roadblocks were being set around town. It became

14 increasingly difficult to get out of town, and I practically left,

15 together with my family, at the very last moment.

16 Q. Were you concerned about violence occurring in the area?

17 A. Yes, I was concerned. There were many people who were armed and I

18 learned about a lot of things that happened around (redacted). There were a

19 lot of barricades. Also it became more difficult for people to get in and

20 out of town A.

21 Q. And did you go to village B that night -- sorry, on one night in

22 April did you travel to village B?

23 A. Yes. I went with my family to village B.

24 Q. And how long did you stay in village B?

25 A. About a month and a half.

Page 1762

1 Q. On the 25th of May, 1992, about six weeks later, were you arrested

2 by Montenegrin police?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And were you taken to the (redacted) police station?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who else was with you when you were arrested?

7 A. With me was Enes Bico and Bogosav Droca.

8 Q. And what were the three of you doing when you were arrested?

9 A. At that moment we were driving in a car from town A to

10 town C -- sorry, from town B to town C. We were stopped by the

11 Montenegrin police and they asked us for documents. After that they said

12 that we had to come with them to town C, to the police station, to make a

13 statement. So that's how we got to town C, to the police station.

14 Q. When you arrived at the police station, was there anyone else

15 detained there?

16 A. Yes. There were many people who had been detained and who were

17 kept in isolation cells, where they put us too; that is, myself and Enes

18 Bico and Bogosav Droca was allowed to go. Although they were also

19 arresting at the time people of Serb ethnicity, but my friend Bogosav

20 Droca was an invalid. He did not have his right hand, and so that was

21 probably the reason why they released him.

22 Q. Were you released from the police station?

23 A. No, I was not.

24 Q. And were you told why you were detained at the police station?

25 A. No. We were told nothing. They simply put us in an isolation

Page 1763

1 cell, where there were very many people already. And we were all crowded,

2 packed like sardines.

3 Q. About how many other detainees were there when you arrived at the

4 police station?

5 A. In my cell there were between 10 and 15 inmates. And the cells

6 were very small, perhaps 2.5 times 2.5 or perhaps not more than 3 times

7 3. But there were also other cells, and they were full too.

8 Q. Do you know what ethnicity these people were? Were they one

9 particular ethnicity, or were they a range?

10 A. Members of only one ethnic group were in those cells. In my cell,

11 there were only Muslims.

12 Q. How long were you kept in that police station?

13 A. I was arrested around 8.00 in the morning, and in that isolation

14 cell I was until about 4.00 in the afternoon when two buses came, picked

15 up old people from police stations, and transported us to Foca.

16 Q. About how many people were transported to Foca?

17 A. I know for a fact that there were 22 Muslims then, but I do not

18 know how many Serbs there were.

19 Q. Of these 22 Muslims, do you know whether they were soldiers or

20 civilians at the time?

21 A. Civilians, all of them, who were in different towns and had been

22 picked up from streets or on highways.

23 Q. Do you know some of the towns in which they were -- which they

24 came from?

25 A. I do. It was practically the whole Montenegrin Riviera, Ulciny,

Page 1764

1 Bar, Herceg-Novi, these -- Igalo near Herceg-Novi, these are principally

2 the towns.

3 Q. Were you taken to the KP Dom in Foca that day?

4 A. Yes. That evening, we reached Foca at 10.00 in the evening.

5 Q. And who took you there? Was it the (redacted)

6 police, or was it someone else?

7 A. Policemen from (redacted) escorted us to a small locality called

8 Pluzine. Other buses from Foca came to Pluzine, those that belonged to

9 Focatrans hauler, and they were taken over by policemen from Foca, that

10 is, from the KP Dom, who then took us to the penitentiary in Foca.

11 Q. Were you told why you were being taken to KP Dom at any stage

12 before you left the police station or any stage en route?

13 A. No, we were told nothing.

14 Q. As you passed, as you passed through the town of Foca, did you

15 notice anything unusual as you approached the KP Dom?

16 A. I did. There were big bonfires. It was the 25th of May, and at

17 first I thought they were proper bonfires because we used to mark that day

18 once, but later on I realised that it was houses that were on fire.

19 Q. And what happened when you first arrived at the KP Dom? Who were

20 you handed over to?

21 A. It was dark, there were no lights, and they took us off the bus,

22 lined us up along the outside wall of the KP Dom, told us to put our hands

23 up, and not to do anything stupid or else they will shoot. Behind us were

24 men armed with automatic weapons. They frisked us all, and then took us

25 into the KP Dom two by two. It was all supervised at the time by a man

Page 1765

1 whose name was Koroman.

2 And after searching us, when they finished searching us, they took

3 us into a room which was dark. We were all exhausted and in a state of

4 shock, but we tried -- groping, we managed to locate some beds there, and

5 we went to sleep on them.

6 Q. Do you remember the first name of Koroman?

7 A. No, I can't.

8 Q. At a later time, did you become aware of where he worked before,

9 before you arrived at the KP Dom or before the war?

10 A. When talking to other detainees, I learnt that he used to be --

11 that he was a former warden of the KP Dom in Foca. I mean, before the

12 war.

13 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this individual is referred to in the

14 guard list, P3, number 32.

15 Q. You said that Koroman supervised, basically, your arrival. Did he

16 supervise what was going on, on the outside of the KP Dom, the frisking

17 that you mentioned; or was it just the activities that were occurring on

18 the inside?

19 A. He was both in front and inside the building at the time; that is,

20 he was present when they searched us outside, and he was also present

21 inside when they were taking us in two by two.

22 Q. And when you say that you were searched on the outside, were you

23 searched by soldiers or civilians or police? Do you know?

24 A. It was dark and I really cannot recall, but I think they were

25 guards because I recognised some of the men afterwards, later on during my

Page 1766












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Page 1767

1 stay in the KP Dom, and they were all guards.

2 Q. When you went -- when you were placed in your room that night,

3 were there other people in the room as your group arrived?

4 A. No, not in that room. We were the only ones, that is, the 22 of

5 us.

6 Q. Do you remember the building that you went to, went into, or the

7 room number?

8 A. I do, yes. It was Room 20.

9 Q. How long were you detained at the KP Dom?

10 A. I spent some 13 months there, if you mean the period of time I

11 spent in the KP Dom.

12 Q. Do you remember the date that you left?

13 A. It was I think on the 18th of June or July, I'm not sure. I left

14 for Rudo on that day.

15 Q. And which year is that?

16 A. 1993.

17 Q. Now, you mentioned the first night you stayed in Room 20. How

18 long did you stay in Room 20 for over that 12-month period, 12- or

19 13-month period?

20 A. I spent most of or the bulk of the time in Room 20, I think more

21 than one-half of my detention in KP Dom altogether. But I also spent some

22 time in other rooms, and I was there for different periods of time. I

23 could not really tell you exactly when it was that I was moved from one

24 room to the other, but I spent most of my detention there in Room 20.

25 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, were there many other Muslims also

Page 1768

1 detained?

2 A. Yes. There were other Muslims, too, but they were in other rooms.

3 Q. Were there any Serb detainees at the KP Dom when you arrived?

4 A. Yes, there were also some Serb detainees.

5 Q. Were they kept separately from the Muslims, or together?

6 A. They were kept separately from the Muslims.

7 Q. In relation to your room, the room that you stayed in, where were

8 they kept?

9 A. For a while, they were kept across Room 20. I cannot remember the

10 number of their room, but I think it was 21.

11 Q. When you say across from Room 20, was that on the same level as

12 Room 20?

13 A. Yes, it was on the same floor.

14 Q. And when you arrived, how many Serb prisoners were there?

15 A. I could not really say how many when I arrived because we were

16 locked up and we had no information, nor were we able to get any

17 information. Besides, we were in a state of shock. We were not really

18 interested in surroundings.

19 Q. Other than the room that you slept in, were you allowed to move

20 about the camp freely?

21 A. In the early months we were allowed only -- to leave the room only

22 when we were going out for meals, and we had three meals a day. Towards

23 the end of my stay in the KP Dom, however, we were allowed to walk around

24 for one hour a day.

25 Q. Where were the guards stationed in relation to your room?

Page 1769

1 A. The guards were all over the compound practically, but they also

2 had a small room at the entrance into -- well, let me call it pavilion

3 number 2, where they had their office.

4 Q. When you arrived at the camp, who appeared to be running it, a

5 civilian authority or a military authority?

6 A. Those were civilian authorities, if by this we mean the police

7 forces, civilian police.

8 Q. Were you ever told why you were detained at the KP Dom for the

9 year that you were there?

10 A. No, I was never told. I wanted to know why, and I wrote a number

11 of statements, a number of requests to the warden asking to be

12 interviewed, but I was never received by anyone, I was never interviewed,

13 and I never learned why I had been detained.

14 Q. Did you start writing a request to the warden for an interview

15 when you first arrived or at some later time?

16 A. No, not straight away. It was after a while. Because some people

17 began to be taken in for interviews, and I expected that my turn would

18 come. And when I realised that almost everybody had been to interviews

19 except me, then I wanted to write a request, a plea to the warden to ask

20 him to see me and he explained to me why I had been detained. People who

21 were with me said that it would be a good idea and told me that the prison

22 warden was -- the camp warden was Krnojelac. Later on in communicating

23 with guards, there was a guard who also advised me to do so - his last

24 name was Milic - and he told me too that I could write a request, address

25 it to Warden Krnojelac, and that he would see that he gets my request.

Page 1770

1 And that is what I did, but I never received any reply. And after that I

2 did the same, I think five times all together, but there was never any

3 reply and I finally realised that nothing would come of it and I gave up

4 writing these.

5 Q. When did you start writing your requests? Was it after your

6 fellow detainees told you that Krnojelac was warden or was it after you

7 were told this by the guard?

8 A. I first learned it from other people, from detainees, that the

9 warden's name was Krnojelac. But then when I talked to guard Milic, he

10 merely confirmed it and said that I should address my request, my

11 submission, to Warden Krnojelac, and that is what I did.

12 Q. Do you remember Milic's first name?

13 A. I'm not sure. I think he could have been Milorad or Milisav.

14 They sound a bit alike. But I'm not sure.

15 Q. What was his age, approximately, and can you give a brief

16 description of him?

17 A. Well, at that time he could have been slightly over 30, I think,

18 of medium height, and he was losing hair.

19 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I believe this person to be number 23 on

20 the guard list, P3.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Is that the only description you've got of him?

22 MR. SMITH: I can try for a bit more, Your Honour, but in relation

23 to the list, there's only one that appears with those details. But --

24 JUDGE HUNT: What, slightly over 30, of medium height, and losing

25 his hair?

Page 1771

1 MR. SMITH: And the surname. And the Christian name is similar.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Right. Thank you.


4 Q. Do you remember the colour of his hair?

5 A. I do, yes. He was fair-haired, very fair.

6 Q. You said you arrived at the KP Dom on the 25th of May, 1992.

7 About how long after you arrived did you write the request? About how

8 many weeks?

9 A. As far as I can remember, it could have been approximately four to

10 six weeks.

11 Q. And where did you get the writing material to make this written

12 request?

13 A. Well, KP Dom was a professional penitentiary in Foca before the

14 war. We found there full lockers of the former prisoners, and there were

15 all sorts of things there: pencils and ballpoints and books and papers.

16 So that is how we could write, because we had what to write with.

17 Q. And did you give this request to the same guard each time?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That was Mr. Milic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And about what time difference, what time elapsed between your

22 separate requests? How long did you wait before you wrote a new one?

23 A. Well, about seven to ten days.

24 Q. Were your requests ever successful? Did you ever get to speak to

25 the wardens, to Krnojelac?

Page 1772

1 A. No, never.

2 Q. Did you get a reason from Milic as to why you weren't getting a

3 meeting with him?

4 A. No, I was never given a reason why he was refusing to see me.

5 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, how much did you weigh?

6 A. About 100 kilograms, like now.

7 Q. And when you left the KP Dom, had you lost weight or had you

8 remained the same weight?

9 A. I had lost 46 kilogrammes when I came in Rudo, or rather when I

10 left the camp in Foca.

11 Q. At the camp did you feel that you received sufficient food?

12 JUDGE HUNT: This is not really an issue, is it? The issue, as I

13 understand it, is simply that everybody in the area was starving. That's

14 a matter which the Prosecution has faced up to in relation to other

15 witnesses. But there is no dispute that there was very little food for

16 the Muslim prisoners. If he can give evidence that the Serb prisoners, if

17 there were anybody there still, got more food, that would be relevant,

18 because I understand that to be disputed. But the fact that these

19 prisoners had very little food has not been disputed in this trial.

20 MR. SMITH: I'll get to that topic, Your Honour.

21 Q. Did the Serb prisoners get the same amount of food as the Muslim

22 prisoners? Can you say?

23 A. No. They were getting enough food. They had a special kitchen

24 and special food was being prepared for them. And they also could receive

25 visits from their relatives, and they brought them food too.

Page 1773

1 Q. Were you ever punished for trying to get more food?

2 A. Yes, several times.

3 Q. Can you tell us what happened?

4 A. On one occasion a friend of mine and I tried to carry a garbage

5 container, because every time we left our rooms we tried to seize every

6 opportunity to find some food. So we started carrying this container to a

7 particular place in the KP Dom. But there was another garbage container

8 which had previously been in the room where Serb detainees were being

9 kept, and that container was full of remains of food that they had

10 discarded. But for us, it was proper food. And we collected these

11 remains of food from the Serb container, if I may call it that, and after

12 that we were beaten and taken into isolation cells.

13 Q. And who was this friend of yours that tried to get the food as

14 well?

15 A. It was Dzevad Cosovic.

16 Q. Did you get the food and eat it?

17 A. Yes, we did manage to get some food from there and we did eat it.

18 Q. How was it discovered that you had taken the food?

19 A. That garbage container was empty the previous day, and my friend

20 Cosovic thought it might be a good idea to fill it with some other refuse

21 from the room so that we could ask the guard the next day to allow us to

22 take out that container with garbage. And so we filled this container

23 with bits of paper and all sorts of other garbage. We simply tried to

24 make it look full.

25 And we were granted a leave to take this container out. However,

Page 1774

1 the two guards who were changing -- who were on duty then, they remembered

2 that that container had been emptied the day before, and then they

3 realised what we had done. And that was why the head of shift that day,

4 and his name was, if I can remember well, Zulka, Zulka, he used to -- he

5 was a karate man. I can't -- his full name eludes me right now, but he

6 took us out, and in the morning, perhaps around 6.00, and in the corridor

7 in front of the isolation cells, he started beating us. And when he

8 finished beating us, he locked us up in an isolation cell. I remember

9 now, his name was Zoran Matovic, Zulka.

10 Q. Was there anyone else present when you were being beaten?

11 A. Yes, another guard was present. His name, his last name was

12 Obrenovic, but he did not beat us.

13 Q. What did he do whilst you were being beaten?

14 A. He watched.

15 Q. Can you describe the beating that you received?

16 A. We had got up. We had hardly woken up, so to speak. As soon as

17 we got into the hall near the isolation cells, Zoran Matovic started

18 hitting us with karate blows. First he hit me a few times. I tried to

19 protect my head with my arms and hands. Then he moved on to my colleague

20 Cosovic, and then he was hitting both me and Cosovic with his hands and

21 kicking us with his feet.

22 Q. Who was beaten more severely, yourself or Cosovic?

23 A. Cosovic was beaten more severely.

24 Q. Did you receive any injuries from this beating?

25 A. Yes. I got bruises in the head and also in the stomach area. In

Page 1775












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1776

1 the stomach area, actually, it was not bruises but pain.

2 Q. And did Cosovic receive any injuries?

3 A. Yes, also the area of the head and of the back.

4 Q. After this beating, I think you said that you were placed in the

5 isolation cell?

6 A. Yes. We were both taken to the isolation cell.

7 Q. How long, for how long were you placed in the isolation cell?

8 A. I think we were not there long. As far as I can remember

9 specifically, I never spent the night in the isolation cell. The same day

10 the head of the guards, or whoever, would come. At that time it was Savo

11 Todovic. I remember. He came to inspect the new people who were brought

12 to the isolation cell, and he asked everyone the same question, why they

13 were in the isolation cell. He came in the afternoon on that day, and we

14 said to him why we were there. He cursed us and said that we should go to

15 Room 20.

16 Q. Did Zoran Matovic tell you why he was beating you? I mean, you

17 explained the reason you felt why he was, but did he state it to you

18 directly?

19 A. Yes, he did. The reason was what I had already explained.

20 Q. Were there any other occasions when you were -- were there any

21 other occasions that you were beaten for trying to get extra food?

22 A. Personally, I was not.

23 Q. Did you witness anyone else being beaten for trying to get extra

24 food?

25 A. I did not have an opportunity of seeing that. For the most time I

Page 1777

1 was locked up in the room, so I didn't really have the opportunity of

2 seeing much. I was in the isolation cell several times because of food,

3 though. Like on the previous occasion, I would invariably get out on the

4 same day.

5 Q. Why were you placed in the cell because of food?

6 A. Well, when we would go to the canteen for lunch or dinner, we were

7 exhausted and starved. We tried to get an extra slice. We resorted to

8 different devices in order to get that extra slice because that meant life

9 to us. When they would catch us getting this extra slice, then they would

10 send us off to the isolation cell.

11 Q. And how many times were you placed in the cell for trying to get

12 an extra slice of bread?

13 A. Approximately three times, together with the first case that I

14 explained earlier.

15 Q. And for these other two cases, for about how long were you placed

16 in the cell?

17 A. I personally got out on the same day every time.

18 Q. And on these two occasions, do you remember who placed you in the

19 cell for trying to get an extra slice of bread?

20 A. I remember on one occasion that a guard nicknamed Mara took me.

21 That's how he was known. I don't know whether his last name was Maric or

22 something.

23 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, in relation to the previous incident with

24 Zoran Matovic and the guard Obrenovic, Zoran Matovic appears at number 48

25 on the guard list, Obrenovic appears at number 46 on the guard list, and

Page 1778

1 the incident referred to is in the indictment at paragraph 5.20 and also

2 in the schedule at A5 and A9.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


5 Q. Whilst you were in detention, did you meet an (redacted)?

6 A. Yes, I met (redacted). We were together in

7 the room. We spent a lot of time together in Room 20.

8 Q. Did you witness an incident in which he was beaten?

9 A. Yes. I had the opportunity of seeing two incidents when he was

10 beaten up. Once when we were coming back from the canteen, when we were

11 going back to our room, number 20 - Room 21 I think was open where Serb

12 detainees were - they put a table there on purpose, and they put lots of

13 bread on it. It was a trap for us Muslims to come in and get some bread,

14 which (redacted) did. When he entered in order to get some bread,

15 Serb detainees rushed to him from various corners and started beating

16 him. They actually beat him up. We intervened with the guards, very

17 loudly. The guard came and resolved the situation; however, (redacted) was

18 beaten up, and he came back to the room, and later on he was all black and

19 blue.

20 On one occasion, I remember that (redacted) was beaten up

21 while he was standing in queue at the canteen. We were not in the same

22 room at the time. I was watching from the window from Room 20 or 23, I

23 can't remember. The detainees would have to queue two -- queue up two by

24 two, and then they would all go to canteen together. As they were

25 waiting for everyone to get there, a soldier came up in a uniform, and he

Page 1779

1 started beating not only (redacted) who was in the first row - he was

2 the first person in the first row - but also several others who were in

3 the front rows. I remember that then the guards were very excited. After

4 that, they talked about it and said that everything ended well compared to

5 what it could have been like.

6 Those are the two things related to the beating of (redacted).

7 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that he was beaten up whilst he was

8 standing in the queue at the canteen, and you said that you saw this from

9 your window. Was this in the prison yard, or was this in the building, in

10 the canteen within the building?

11 A. No. That happened within the compound in front of the canteen

12 while people were waiting for everyone to get there.

13 Q. Can you describe the soldier that beat this person up?

14 A. No, I can't. This was quite far away from the place where I was.

15 And we didn't even dare watch because we were forbidden actually from

16 looking out of the window then. I can only say that it was a soldier

17 because he wore a military uniform, a camouflage military uniform.

18 Q. And about how many guards were present when this beating was

19 occurring?

20 A. I think that in fact one guard was present, the one who was on

21 duty while people gather there to go. However, there were many guards who

22 did various things within the compound. At that moment there might have

23 been two guards who were present there.

24 Q. Now, you said that you saw this incident, and you've also said

25 that you were forbidden from looking out the window. Did you see it, or

Page 1780

1 did you hear about it, or did you just see it for a short, a very short

2 period of time?

3 A. I saw it very briefly. Later, when (redacted) came to my

4 room, when we were together, when we talked, then he confirmed this to me

5 as we talked.

6 JUDGE HUNT: [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 MR. SMITH: [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 JUDGE HUNT: [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 MR. SMITH: [redacted]

14 JUDGE HUNT: [redacted]

15 MR. SMITH: [redacted].

16 JUDGE HUNT: [redacted]

17 [redacted].

18 MR. SMITH: [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 JUDGE HUNT: [redacted]

23 MR. SMITH: Thank you. Your Honour, that incident that was

24 referred to by the witness relates to -- we believe it relates to 5.12,

25 paragraph 5.12 in the indictment.

Page 1781

1 Q. Were you aware of the incident where a prisoner attempted to

2 escape from the KP Dom?

3 A. Yes, I'm aware of that incident. This was towards the end of my

4 stay at the KP Dom Foca. It was the very end.

5 Q. I don't want you to discuss the incident in any great length, but

6 do you remember the name of the prisoner that tried to escape?

7 A. I remember his nickname, because I was never in the same room with

8 him. He was in a room where the so-called working groups were, groups

9 that worked all the time. But I can assume that that is the name under

10 216 on the list that I have in front of me. I can tell you his nickname.

11 The nickname I know. I know him by that nickname.

12 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, he's referred to the person on the

13 Exhibit 408. That person and the person above -- this sheet isn't as

14 accurate as it should be -- are in fact not protected witnesses either,

15 but perhaps we'll just continue.

16 Q. Were you lectured about this incident by someone from the KP Dom,

17 about the escape?

18 A. Yes. After that they took the entire KP Dom out to a plateau

19 within the compound, within the prison compound. Then Savo Todovic

20 lectured us. He took (redacted) out. That was the name of the person who had

21 tried to escape. And this is what he said to us: "(redacted)," he said his

22 name and surname. I have forgotten it right now, "has tried to escape.

23 However, he did not succeed. We did not kill him for that, and in this

24 way we showed all the humaneness of the Serb people." That is what he

25 said verbatim. I remember that. However, afterwards he said, "However,

Page 1782

1 now you will all be punished, absolutely everyone. Your food portions

2 will be reduced." So instead of the food that we got, which was horrible

3 in the first place, then we got literally three spoonfuls only.

4 Also, I know that working groups, entire working groups, were

5 punished by solitary confinement for dozens of days. I also remember that

6 perhaps a few days later, five or six days later - I can't remember

7 exactly - during the next five or six days I remember that we really got

8 three spoonfuls only per meal. However, I was fortunate to have left the

9 KP Dom. After that I went to Rudo. I don't know how long this punishment

10 lasted, because I stayed in Rudo.

11 Q. Whilst you were at KP Dom, did anyone require some urgent medical

12 treatment?

13 A. Yes. There were many such cases. I remember the first case.

14 That was just after the detainees from Herceg-Novi came, specifically the

15 group from Herceg-Novi. A detainee came with me. I can only remember his

16 first name. It was Enes. He had problems with a stomach ulcer from

17 earlier on. Probably since he was in a state of shock his condition

18 deteriorated. In the evening, around 8.00, he started vomiting blood.

19 From the window we called out to the guard to come and help, because we

20 realised that the situation was serious. The guard came to the door. I

21 remember it was Jovan Savic, nicknamed Jovo, who asked what the problem

22 was. When we explained what it was, he only closed the door and left. We

23 thought that some kind of help would arrive, but none did. The next day,

24 around noon, again we sought intervention. The man was half dead. They

25 told us to carry him, and four of us did. We put him on a blanket and

Page 1783

1 four of us carried him out to the yard, where the ambulance from the

2 hospital was waiting, and they took him to the Foca hospital. We heard

3 that he died the same day and that he was buried there.

4 Q. When you first complained to the guard, Jovo Savic, you said that

5 he just left the room. Did he say anything at all?

6 A. No, he didn't say anything. I can remember that he closed the

7 door rather cheekily and perhaps he swore at us too.

8 Q. For how long was the problem explained to him that this person was

9 vomiting?

10 A. Very brief. He just stood at the door. When he found out why we

11 were calling him, he was not interested. He swore at us and slammed the

12 door.

13 Q. Do you know what happened to Enes? Do you know where he was

14 taken?

15 A. As I already said, we carried him out to the yard, to the gate,

16 where a hospital ambulance was waiting. We just put him into the

17 ambulance. I could not see, but we had assumed that they were taking him

18 to hospital.

19 Q. Did you hear whether he lived or died after this?

20 A. We heard that he died.

21 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this incident is referred to as 5.37 in

22 the indictment, and Jovo Savic is number 55 on the guard list.

23 Q. You mentioned that you were arrested with an Enes Bico.

24 A. Yes, (redacted)

25 Q. When did you last see him?

Page 1784












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Page 1785

1 A. I last saw him when they told him to get ready, that he was going

2 out for an exchange. I remember that when we were saying goodbye, he

3 said, "Today it's exactly 100 days that I've been in the camp." According

4 to my math, it should be around the 10th of September.

5 Q. And that's in 1992?

6 A. Yes, 1992.

7 Q. When he said he was going for an exchange, did other people go

8 with him?

9 A. He went in a group with around 18 men. However, these people were

10 taken from different rooms. From Room 20, where we were right then, about

11 six or seven people left. I can't remember exactly. But we knew, as we

12 were watching through the windows surreptitiously, that about 18 people

13 left in that group.

14 Q. Was Enes in your room or in another room when he was taken out?

15 A. He was in my room.

16 Q. Did Enes Bico ever return to the KP Dom?

17 A. No, he never returned.

18 Q. Since that date do you know of anyone that knows whether he has

19 been seen alive?

20 A. We do not know of him ever having been seen alive again.

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted), although Enes Bico was

23 registered when the International Red Cross first came to the KP Dom Foca.

24 Q. And the other 17 that were in the group, did you know any of their

25 names that were taken out on the same day?

Page 1786

1 A. I can remember only one more name of a person who was also in my

2 room. This was a youngish man. And I was in contact with him. I

3 probably remember the name. It was Karovic. Actually, his last name was

4 Karovic. Aziz. I'm not sure whether Aziz is his first name. No, Ramiz.

5 Ramiz is his first name, not Azim. Ramiz Karovic. I'm sure now. His

6 brother and father were also in the camp. However, we were not all

7 together.

8 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I have probably another 20 minutes of

9 questions.

10 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right. I just want to sign one of these

11 redaction forms before I go, to catch it.

12 MR. SMITH: Shall I continue, Your Honour?

13 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. No. But if I don't sign it now, it will be

14 broadcast without the redaction being made. The timing of these things is

15 rather important.

16 We'll adjourn now until 11.30.

17 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.

20 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Witness, with some of the names that will be mentioned from now

22 on, if you can not state how you know these particular people, but just

23 state whether you know them. Do you understand that?

24 A. I do, yes.

25 Q. Before the break you said that Enes Bico was taken from the KP Dom

Page 1787

1 for exchange and to the best of your knowledge you know of no one that has

2 seen him alive since that date. Does the same apply to Ramiz Karovic, who

3 you also stated left on that particular day?

4 A. It does.

5 Q. For the other 16 that were taken out in the group, do you know

6 whether any of those 16 have been seen alive today by anyone, have been

7 seen alive since that day by anyone?

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.


10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours, because the

11 witness said he did not know those other people, that he only knew one of

12 them, or rather two from that group, that he did not know any others.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Where did he say that, though?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour, please.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Where did he say that, Mr. Bakrac, that he only knew

16 two of them?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before the break he was

18 asked by my learned friend and said that 18 individuals had been taken

19 out. And then my learned friend asked him which ones of them he knew, and

20 he said that he knew Bico and also quoted that other name; that is, he

21 said that he knew those two from that whole group. This should mean that

22 he does not know all the others in that group.

23 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that is accurate. What he said was: "I

24 can remember only one more name of a person, who was also in my room.

25 That was a youngish man," and he gave a name. But are we dealing with

Page 1788

1 people he knew or whose names he knew? That's the point, as I understand

2 it. He didn't say he didn't know them; he could only remember the names

3 of two.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Quite so, that he could remember only

5 one other man, that he did not remember others, that he did not know who

6 else was in the group. So how can he now identify others and say whether

7 others from that group were seen later on or not if he does not remember

8 them, regardless of whether he knows them or not? He simply does not

9 remember who those others were.

10 JUDGE HUNT: I'll only repeat it this time. He said he did not

11 remember their names. He does not say he does not remember who they were,

12 and the Prosecutor is entitled to attempt to find out, with assistance, if

13 necessary, who they were.

14 Now, you proceed, Mr. Smith, but he has said he only remembered

15 two names, so you'll have to go about it some other way.


17 Q. Witness, since this date that Enes Bico went missing, did you make

18 some inquiries as to his whereabouts? Did you talk to other people about

19 trying to locate him, without saying who you spoke to specifically?

20 A. While I was in detention, I of course had no opportunity of

21 learning anything about Enes Bico. We all thought that he had been

22 exchanged and was in a free territory. But when I came out of the camp

23 and realised that Bico has never turned up in any free territory and that

24 he had not been exchanged, then, together with his other relations - his

25 wife, his mother, his sister - we all tried to find out what had happened

Page 1789

1 to him. Of course, they were making those efforts even while I was in the

2 camp, but they never were able to trace him and could not find anything

3 about him. We, which is worse, do not know whether he is dead or alive.

4 Q. But during those inquiries, did you speak to other people about

5 the whereabouts of the other 16 that were taken out that same day or did

6 you learn any information about their whereabouts?

7 A. Yes. After I came out of the prison, we, the veteran inmates, to

8 call us so, we communicated and tried to exchange information and learned

9 about each other, so that I found out that the group which left on that

10 day, that none of those men had ever been seen again or found anywhere.

11 MR. SMITH: Does that clear the matter up, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, yes, but I think that what Mr. Bakrac was

13 concerned about was that you were going to start by leading questions,

14 going through each of the 18 in the group. If you want to go to any of

15 the others, you have to remember the witness does not remember their

16 names, so you'll have to somehow have some other description.

17 MR. SMITH: I think that will be enough for this topic, Your

18 Honour.

19 JUDGE HUNT: All right.


21 Q. The following people - Senad Krdalija, Mirsad Borovac, and Alija

22 Cardalkija - were they detainees at the KP Dom? Please don't state how

23 you know these particular people, but can you say whether they were

24 detainees whilst you were at the KP Dom?

25 A. Yes. Those men were brought together with me but the names are

Page 1790

1 not quite correct. Alija Cardalkija was one of them, Sanin Krdalija was

2 another one, and Mirsad Borovac. These are the names of those men. They

3 were brought together with me from (redacted) and they were with me in

4 the KP Dom for a while until they were taken away, and to this day we do

5 not know what happened to them.

6 Q. Were you present when they were taken away or did you hear this

7 from other prisoners?

8 A. I could look through their window on the sly - we usually did that

9 whenever there were so-called exchanges of groups -- and I therefore saw

10 when Sanin Krdalija was taken away and I also saw when Mirsad Borovac was

11 taken away. I did not see, however, Alija Cardalkija being taken away,

12 but I heard that same day from other detainees about him, because he was

13 in the first pavilion and I was in pavilion 2 at the time when he was

14 taken away.

15 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom were you ever asked to pick plums?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When was this, about?

18 A. It was -- it could have been in September or perhaps early

19 October. I couldn't really be quite precise in my answer. But I remember

20 that a guard came in. His name was Vukovic. And he entered Room 20 and

21 lined us up and then asked, "Any volunteers to pick plums?" We all wanted

22 to go pick plums, because at that time a plum really meant something to

23 us. And he began to take down the names of volunteers. So a couple of

24 men volunteered and he took their names.

25 And then another guard came to the door, rather small and dark,

Page 1791

1 with dark complexion, whose nickname was Predo and who said that he should

2 stop taking those names because he should go back to the command

3 urgently. And he did that, and about perhaps half an hour or an hour

4 later - I cannot tell you exactly - Vukovic came back and simply read out

5 the names of men who should go and pick plums. No. Excuse me. It was

6 not Vukovic; it was Plevaljcic, Vlado Plevaljcic who came.

7 He read out the names of men who were to go plum picking, and I --

8 it sticks still in my memory that he read out the name of a young man, of

9 a very -- of a young boy. He could have been 18 or 19 and had been

10 wounded in the arm. He had a cast on that arm and practically could not

11 use it. And he told Vlado Plevaljcic that he could not go to pick plums

12 because he simply was not up to it. But Vlado Plevaljcic said then,

13 "Well, you come downstairs, see what it's like, and if you don't like it,

14 then you can come back." And so the group went and that young man never

15 came back.

16 Q. If I can just stop you there. About how many people from your

17 room were selected for that group?

18 A. About ten, as far as I can remember.

19 Q. Do you know whether people from other rooms were also selected?

20 A. Yes, and there were men picked out from other rooms. And as far

21 as I can remember, of course, from other detainees who were better

22 informed than I was, some 36 men were -- had been taken away to pick

23 plums.

24 Q. Do you know the names of any individuals that were taken out of

25 your room?

Page 1792

1 A. I do, yes. I remember engineer Murat Crneta. I also remember a

2 big man whose surname was Murto. Then I also remember a man whose

3 nickname I know, and that was Zeka. Before the war he worked in the Foca

4 hospital, in the military department.

5 Q. Did they take their belongings from the room or did they leave

6 them behind?

7 A. No, they did not take their belongings with them, because they had

8 been told that they were going to pick plums and would be coming back,

9 unlike other groups, which had been told, "Get your belongings ready.

10 You've got about half an hour and you're off to be exchanged."

11 Q. And what happened to their belongings?

12 A. Their belongings stayed there for days and we could already hear

13 rumours that those men had been liquidated. So after a while we began to

14 use those things, because we needed them.

15 Q. Of those people that you knew in the group, do you know of anyone

16 that has seen them alive since that time?

17 A. As far as I know, nobody saw any one of those men who had gone to

18 pick plums alive again.

19 Q. You said you stayed at the KP Dom for about 12 months and then you

20 were taken to Rudo; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How long did you stay at Rudo for?

23 A. Some nine months.

24 Q. What was Rudo? Was it a detention camp or was it some other

25 facility?

Page 1793












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Page 1794

1 A. We were taken to Rudo so as to be exchanged for prisoners captured

2 by the BH army in Gorazde, captured on the Rudo theatre of war. So we

3 were brought to Rudo and we were put in the cellar of the cultural

4 centre. I mean, it was proper, a proper cellar. There were some small

5 windows with bars, but no window panes. And we were told that we would be

6 kept there for three or five days, that the exchange had been agreed, and

7 that we were simply waiting for some technical details to be resolved.

8 However, the exchange did not take place and we stayed nine months there.

9 Now, was that a camp or something else, well, I suppose you can make your

10 own conclusions. There were about 30 to 35 people locked up there in a

11 cellar. No hygienic facilities, no sanitary conditions. I don't know

12 what you would care to call that. Those men were civilians, by and large,

13 picked from their homes, brought from other states.

14 Q. And were these people Muslims that were detained at this place?

15 A. Only Muslims.

16 Q. And after the nine months you were taken to the KP Dom at Kula in

17 Sarajevo; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. And how long did you stay at this camp?

20 A. Five months or thereabouts.

21 Q. And about how many other people were detained there?

22 A. There were many people, because people were being brought and

23 taken away. I know that the cells were overcrowded. There were military

24 bunk-beds in those cells. I couldn't really give you the number, but

25 there were several hundred men.

Page 1795

1 Q. And just by way of comparison, the conditions that existed at the

2 Rudo detention camp, were they better or worse than that in Foca?

3 A. In Rudo the conditions were better because people who were

4 guarding us there, Serb guards there, were incomparably more humane than

5 those who guarded us in Foca. I can just give you an example. When 30 or

6 so of us arrived in Rudo and when those Serb guards saw us, then their

7 comments were like this, and they were loud comments so we could hear:

8 "What had those Chetniks in Foca done do you? Fuck them." And because

9 we were completely emaciated. People in Rudo gave us better food and in

10 quantities which were normal. They also allowed us to come out of that

11 cellar and do something if we wanted to, and of course we did want to,

12 because it's not very pleasant to stay in a cellar. So we did all sorts

13 of things, all sorts of chores, but nobody forced us to do them. And we

14 all gained at least 25 kilogrammes while in Rudo during those nine months.

15 Q. Do you remember what date you were released from the Kula camp in

16 Sarajevo?

17 A. It was the 17th of August, 1994.

18 Q. Did the Red Cross visit you whilst you were at the Foca KP Dom and

19 Rudo and at the Sarajevo KP Dom at Kula?

20 A. Yes. The Red Cross came to see us in the Foca KP Dom, but only

21 after we had been there for five or six months. In Rudo they came to see

22 us regularly, and at Kula they also came to see us regularly.

23 Q. And did you obtain a certificate from the Red Cross referring to

24 those visits and your detention at these places once you were released?

25 A. I was issued a certificate by the UNHCR, that is; a certificate as

Page 1796

1 to the camps I had been kept in and the time of my release.

2 Q. And did you also subsequently receive a certificate from the

3 authorities, the police station commander at (redacted), in relation to

4 your arrest and detention and transfer to KP Dom after you were released?

5 A. My wife has such a document, and it happened shortly after my

6 arrest, seven or eight days, because she was persistent. She kept going

7 there, asking why I had been arrested, where, and the man could not

8 explain anything to her, but he could issue her a certificate that I had

9 been arrested at the instructions, at the order of the Montenegrin

10 government, and that I had been turned over to the Serb authorities in

11 Foca. And the same certificate was issued to Bico's wife, to Enes Bico's

12 wife. His fate is unknown to this day.

13 Q. And also, without stating the content of the inquiries or who made

14 the inquiries, but are you aware of inquiries made with the Red Cross in

15 relation to Enes Bico and the subsequent results that they gave? But I

16 don't want you to refer to which Red Cross or who made those inquiries.

17 Just yes or no.

18 A. Yes, an investigation was started.

19 Q. And subsequently did you receive some paperwork in relation to his

20 whereabouts from the Red Cross? If you can just give a yes or no answer.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And this paperwork was provided to the Tribunal by yourself or

23 someone, a relative of yours?

24 A. Enes Bico's wife sent me the documentation.

25 JUDGE HUNT: (redacted)

Page 1797

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE HUNT: You've actually used it yourself occasionally.

8 MR. SMITH: I apologise, and --


10 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would seek to tender Prosecution

11 identification number document 81, which is a Red Cross certificate

12 relating to this witness; also identification number 83, which is the

13 certificate in relation to -- from the authorities in relation to his

14 detention and transfer to the KP Dom, and the translation, and it's for

15 this witness and Enes Bico; and also an answer to a tracing request in

16 relation to Enes Bico, which is a document from the Red Cross,

17 identification number 76.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Have you got copies of all of these? They're not

19 easy to find.

20 MR. SMITH: You can have these copies, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Have you got copies for everybody?

22 MR. SMITH: Everyone has been given them in the folders.

23 JUDGE HUNT: You have never, obviously, had to look through those

24 folders for documents by number. It is almost impossible. You have to

25 turn over every page, practically, to find the numbers.

Page 1798

1 MR. SMITH: I'll remember that for the next occasion, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, your colleagues always manage to produce copies

3 of them, and it is, if I may say so, the better way of dealing with it.

4 Well, Mr. Bakrac, have you been able to identify these documents?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, we did, and we

6 have no objections.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

8 Now, have any of these got to be under seal? 81 would.

9 MR. SMITH: All of them --

10 JUDGE HUNT: And 83 would.

11 MR. SMITH: And there's a further one, Your Honour, that would

12 also require to be under seal.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Which one is that?

14 MR. SMITH: Because I've just handed over the documents, Your

15 Honour, I'm --


17 MR. SMITH: There's three, three documents there that relate

18 to -- three documents that relate to -- no, it's just the two.

19 JUDGE HUNT: That's what I would have thought.

20 MR. SMITH: Yes.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. Then we'll -- they will be become

22 Exhibits P75 and 76, and then P81 and 83, the latter two being under

23 seal.


25 Q. And Witness, one last question. You spent a year at the KP Dom.

Page 1799

1 Can you state how that affected you mentally after leaving and how it

2 affects you today?

3 A. I don't know what to say from the point of view of mental health.

4 I can tell you how it affected me physically. I had lost a terrible lot

5 of weight. I even got some illnesses, like a hernia. I was sick many

6 times. I went to see a doctor very often, or rather this male nurse

7 called Gojko.

8 I don't know what I would say about my mental health. I can say

9 that everything that happened was abnormal. I mean, I could not

10 understand that something like that could be happening in this century. I

11 can't understand that until this very day, that people in the twentieth

12 century can starve to death, and there were such cases, that people hate

13 each other so much, I mean really hate. It's not that they don't give

14 them something, that they don't give them food or -- it's not that they

15 cannot give them food; they don't want to give them food. There was an

16 abundance of food. We saw food being thrown away and we were in a

17 situation to starve to death, just because it occurred to someone to

18 divide people according to ethnic groups. I think this was insane.

19 MR. SMITH: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination? Mr. Vasic.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:

23 Q. I would like to wish the witness a good day and to introduce

24 myself. I'm Miroslav Vasic and I am one of the Defence counsel for the

25 accused, Milorad Krnojelac.

Page 1800

1 Sir, did you give statements to the investigators of the OTP on

2 two occasions concerning your stay at the KP Dom?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you give these statements on the 2nd of December, 1998, and

5 the other one on the 9th and 10th of May?

6 A. I can't remember the exact dates, but it could be that way.

7 Q. Thank you. After these statements were typed out, did you read

8 them and sign them?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. In your statement, the one you gave to the

11 investigators of the Tribunal in December 1998, did you mention the

12 following: "Savo Todovic was in charge of logistics in the KP Dom"?

13 A. I probably said that.

14 Q. Please let me finish the quotation, if that isn't a problem for

15 you.

16 A. All right

17 Q. "However, people talked about him as the real commander of the KP

18 Dom. He behaved in a harsh way. He lectured us, and once he made one

19 group go to the isolation cell."

20 Is that what you said to the investigator?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. Did you say to the investigator of the OTP that

23 Mr. Savo Todovic was present when, on the 13th of June, 1993, you were

24 transferred to Rudo from the KP Dom?

25 A. I think I stated that. I'm not sure.

Page 1801

1 Q. Is that correct?

2 A. It is correct. He was present, as well as many others.

3 Q. Thank you. Sir, did you state to the investigator of the

4 Prosecution that from the very beginning of your detention you would see

5 soldiers in the KP Dom?

6 A. I can't remember whether I stated that. We saw soldiers very

7 seldom.

8 Q. I'm going to read what it says in your statement dated December

9 1998: "I saw soldiers at the KP Dom from the very beginning of my

10 detention."

11 A. Perhaps I meant the guards at that time.

12 Q. I'll read it to the end and then you'll see that there is a

13 distinction.

14 A. I'm sorry.

15 Q. "They came to the administrative building, but I could not see

16 what was going on there. I never saw the soldiers enter detention cells,

17 but I heard that it was the soldiers who treated the detainees the

18 worst."

19 That is the quotation that I wanted to draw your attention to, so

20 there is a clear distinction between guards and soldiers.

21 A. That is correct. I mean, what you read out is correct.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. In relation to the army, I would like to draw

23 your attention to yet another thing you stated in your statement to the

24 investigators of the OTP:

25 "While I was staying at the KP Dom, I noticed that the soldiers

Page 1802












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1803

1 were the worst. They would come and take people out. The soldiers

2 ordered the guards to bring people to them, and the guards obeyed them. I

3 don't know what the soldiers did to these people, because we did not have

4 such information."

5 Is that what you stated? Or rather, is this correct?

6 A. I did state that.

7 Q. Is it correct?

8 A. When I stated that, perhaps at that moment I did not know who a

9 soldier was and who a guard was, because many guards did not wear

10 uniforms; they wore civilian clothes. And very often they wore camouflage

11 military uniforms as well.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, in your statement to the investigators of

13 the OTP, did you say that during your stay in the KP Dom Foca, did you say

14 you did not see Milorad Krnojelac a single time and that you did not know

15 who he was?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Thank you, sir. In your statement today you said that after you

18 came to the KP Dom Foca after being transported, you were frisked and you

19 were taken to a room where it was dark. Can you explain to us why it was

20 dark in that room? Do you know?

21 A. Because at that time there was no electricity in Foca.

22 Q. Thank you. Today you stated that in your opinion the KP Dom in

23 Foca was run by a civilian authority.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In relation to what you've said to us about the military, on the

Page 1804

1 basis of what do you think that the civilian authorities ran the KP Dom?

2 A. Because Warden Krnojelac himself was a civilian, because in that

3 prison, to the best of my knowledge, there were guards who had also worked

4 as guards in the KP Dom before the war as well.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that you gave Milic requests in writing

6 for the warden to receive you. Do you know whether these were actually

7 taken to the warden?

8 A. He personally claimed to have taken them to the warden.

9 Q. Thank you. You stated today that Serbs who were detained at the

10 KP Dom had special food and a special kitchen. Can you tell us who cooked

11 for them?

12 A. It changed from one period to another, but I think that for the

13 most part Serbs cooked for them, headed by the chief cook, whose name was

14 Risto, I think. There were periods when Muslims helped out, but it was

15 primarily for the Muslims that the Muslims did the cooking.

16 Q. Thank you. And do you know what these Serbs ate, specifically?

17 Do you know what was cooked for them? Did you see that?

18 A. I did see that. I had the opportunity of seeing that. This was

19 food -- for example, if it were beans, we would get beans where we could

20 see literally three kidney beans swimming about, where there was no meat,

21 not any kind of fat whatsoever. We could drink it as if it were water.

22 Whereas the Serb detainees would get beans that had lots of beans in them

23 and meat and everything. There was a drastic difference. It was the

24 regular kind of beans you would eat in normal life.

25 Q. Thank you, sir. You are the third witness that has appeared

Page 1805

1 before this Court during these past few days, and you are the first one to

2 mention the throwing away of food into a container. Can you explain to me

3 why you did not mention this fact to the investigators of the OTP although

4 you talked to them twice, although you discussed the question of food as

5 well, although you gave your statement to the best of your recollection

6 and to the best of your ability, as it says in the statement? Why did you

7 not mention, in a single word, this fact?

8 A. I was simply ashamed to talk about that. I simply didn't want to

9 remember that. I wanted to erase that from my memory. Because when I got

10 out of the camp and when I went to (redacted), doctors, psychiatrists, asked

11 me whether I needed help, and I said, "No. I want to help myself." That

12 was probably one of the ways in which I tried to help myself, to forget

13 the worst that happened. And also these conversations were exhausting,

14 they lasted all day, and I simply wanted to forget them as soon as

15 possible.

16 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, though: In such a situation, is it now

17 that you recalled these things? I mean, how come you remember that now?

18 A. I simply knew that all the time. I did not think it would be

19 important. I did not know that I would be a witness in this Tribunal.

20 However, at this moment I realise that this is an important thing that I

21 should state.

22 Q. Did somebody tell you that this is an important thing?

23 A. No, nobody told me. I thought about it. When I decided to

24 testify before the Tribunal, I decided what I should say.

25 Q. I agree, sir, but when you gave a statement to the investigator of

Page 1806

1 the Tribunal, you also said that if necessary you would come and testify

2 here as a witness.

3 A. That's quite possible. However, what I stated about the food is a

4 pure fact.

5 Q. Thank you. You said that a detainee named Enes got sick and that

6 you carried him to an ambulance with three other detainees.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us who were these other three men who carried him

9 with you?

10 A. I can remember one name. It was Sefko Kubat. I cannot remember

11 the other two names. Sefko Kubat also died in prison in Foca.

12 Q. Can you tell us when this was, this event with him?

13 A. This was at the very beginning, when we had just arrived.

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, when you are giving the answers to Mr. Vasic,

16 you should keep in mind that you are both speaking the same language. The

17 interpreters have to catch up with the question, so would you please pause

18 before you start the answer, just sufficient time for the translators to

19 catch up. They're usually about a half sentence behind.

20 Yes, Mr. Vasic.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. From who did you hear that the person named Enes had died in

23 hospital?

24 A. I heard that from the others who were with me in the room, who

25 knew him well.

Page 1807

1 Q. Can you give us a name of one of these persons?

2 A. I remember Sefko Kubat. He was a very good friend of his.

3 Q. Did he tell you how come he knew?

4 A. He did not tell me how come he knew, but in the Foca camp most of

5 the people were locals from Foca, and they got news from somewhere.

6 Q. Thank you. Today you gave us details related to an incident when

7 you were beaten up. Can you tell us -- this was together with

8 Mr. Cosovic. Can you tell us where you were taken from when you were

9 beaten up afterwards?

10 A. We were taken out of Room 20. We were woken up in the morning and

11 we were taken away.

12 Q. Thank you. Today you mentioned that you know that Mr. Krdalija

13 and Mr. Borovac were taken away. Can you tell us when this was, if you

14 can remember the date, month, or year?

15 A. I can't remember the date exactly, but it was in 1992. Mirsad

16 Borovac was taken with a big group which was allegedly taken out for an

17 exchange. These were two buses full of people. One of these buses did

18 arrive in the so-called free territory, in Roze, in Montenegro, whereas

19 the other bus never arrived anywhere. The people who were in that bus

20 have not been heard of until the present day. Mirsad Borovac was in that

21 bus as well. Sanin Krdalija was taken with a group, similar to Enes

22 Bico. I can't remember the exact date, but in the period of

23 August/September many people were taken, in my estimate about 400 people,

24 most of them young. People were usually told that they would be

25 exchanged, except when they went out to pick plums. However, when I got

Page 1808

1 out and when I talked to the survivors of the camp, we came to the

2 conclusion that nothing is known about most of these persons.

3 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me which room Mr. Krdalija was taken out

4 of and which room Mr. Borovac was taken out of?

5 A. There were many rooms in the prison. Many times they put us

6 together or separated us. It was so often that I could not remember which

7 rooms they were taken out of at that very moment.

8 Q. Thank you. Today you mentioned the events related to plum picking

9 and calling out names in that respect. In response to my learned

10 colleague's question, you added that you remember that one young man had a

11 cast on his arm. Is this the first time you mentioned this? Have you

12 told the OTP investigators about this?

13 A. This is the first time that I mention this. I remember certain

14 things, but I don't know many names. That is why I tried to find out this

15 young man's name and surname, because I was really affected by this. I

16 realise that the man who was calling out people's names knew exactly where

17 he was taking them, and he nevertheless called out the name of this young

18 man. However, I didn't manage to find out what his name was, but I

19 decided to talk about it.

20 Q. So that is why you did not mention this incident, because you did

21 not manage to find out what the person's name was?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I do think that the translators deserve a medal for

25 that one. You were very quick off the mark, Mr. Vasic. Please do pause

Page 1809

1 as well, would you?

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. I got

3 carried away in my examination, obviously.

4 Q. Sir, was that the reason why you did not tell the investigators of

5 the OTP about this detail, although you discussed this subject and

6 although this subject is part of your signed statement?

7 A. I don't know what the reason was why I did not say this to the

8 investigators. However, I can only say that this is a fact.

9 Q. Thank you, sir. Today you said that you heard that a group which

10 went to pick plums was liquidated. Who did you hear this from?

11 A. I heard about this from the other detainees who were with me. I

12 repeat again: Most of them were local people from Foca who knew each

13 other well.

14 Q. Can you tell me one name, one name of one of the persons who told

15 you about this?

16 A. Well, they all talked about it. Literally everyone talked about

17 it. I can mention ten names, if necessary: (redacted)

18 (redacted).

19 Q. I'm sorry, sir. Could you please pay attention to this list with

20 pseudonyms so that you wouldn't -- I mean, if you're going to mention any

21 people from this list, please bear that in mind.

22 A. All right. Everybody knew, number 214, 66, 82.

23 Q. Did they tell you how come they found out that this group was

24 liquidated?

25 A. At that time there were two working groups. These were the

Page 1810

1 so-called metal workers and the carpenters. Also, there were groups that

2 went out to work from time to time. These groups could find out a lot

3 when they went out, and they did find that out from the outside when they

4 heard, accidentally, conversations among Serb soldiers or civilians, and

5 then they would tell somebody about it, and all news spread through the

6 camp.

7 Q. If I understand you correctly, you're talking about rumours, and

8 it was not ascertained as to whether they were true or not. But you're

9 talking about rumours that spread through the KP Dom, am I correct? I

10 mean, I'm not claiming this or that.

11 A. It is not for me to say whether these are rumours or not. The

12 fact remains that none of these people have ever appeared since. Can you

13 give me an answer where these people are?

14 Q. Sir, I said -- without any intention of claiming whether this is

15 true or not, I just tried at this moment to find a common denominator in

16 terms of what you have just told us about. Thank you very much.

17 The Defence has no further questions, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Re-examination?

19 MR. SMITH: Just a few questions, Your Honour.

20 Reexamined by Mr. Smith:

21 Q. Witness, you were asked a question by my learned friend in

22 relation to your knowledge of Mr. Krnojelac from a statement you gave the

23 OTP. In your answer you said that, "In my statement, I said that I didn't

24 meet Mr. Krnojelac, nor did I know who he was."

25 In your examination-in-chief, you stated that when you arrived at

Page 1811












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1812

1 the KP Dom, other detainees advised you that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden,

2 and then later Mr. Milic, a guard there, also told you that he was the

3 warden, and subsequently you wrote written requests to Mr. Krnojelac for a

4 meeting.

5 If I can have the -- is that correct? Did you not know who

6 Mr. Krnojelac was? Is that what is written in your statement?

7 JUDGE HUNT: Has he got the document in front of him?

8 MR. SMITH: Perhaps I'll do that, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE HUNT: I don't want there to be some problem about

10 translations here. There was no objection at the time that Mr. Vasic read

11 that part out, so I assumed that it was correct.

12 MR. SMITH: Well, I mean, I was going to raise it in re-exam.

13 That was the approach that I took.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I think it would have been easier for the witness to

15 have -- I'm not sure which version you're going to give him, the English

16 or the B/C/S.

17 MR. SMITH: The B/C/S version, Your Honour. I understand the

18 difficulties, but it's 74A.

19 Q. Witness, in that statement at paragraph number six, do you see

20 paragraph number six where it mentions Mr. Krnojelac?

21 A. I do, yes.

22 Q. You state that you wrote a letter to Krnojelac and that other

23 detainees told you that you should write the letter to him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you gave this statement, did you know whether Mr. Krnojelac

Page 1813

1 was the warden or not?

2 A. I knew that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden, but I had never seen

3 him, and I did not know him before the war, nor did I have an opportunity

4 to see him in the -- within the compound because I was locked all the

5 time. But I did know that he was the warden, and it was confirmed to me

6 by a guard whose last name was Milic.

7 Q. Witness, would you be able to recognise Mr. Krnojelac whilst you

8 were at the KP Dom? Did you know what he looked like when you were at the

9 KP Dom?

10 A. No, I did not know what he looked like.

11 Q. You also mentioned that the soldiers you felt treated the

12 detainees worse than the guards, in answer to a question by my friend.

13 A. Yes. It was based on rumours that reached me. Specifically, I had

14 no opportunity of seeing the soldiers treat the prisoners except once

15 briefly when I saw them beating number 214 and others who were queuing for

16 meat.

17 Q. Did the guards enjoy a good reputation in terms of treatment of

18 prisoners, or otherwise?

19 A. There were all sorts of things there. There were guards who,

20 especially in the beginning treated prisoners, very decently, but their

21 number was very limited. The majority of guards treated prisoners very

22 cruelly.

23 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, sir.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You're now free

25 to leave, but if you'd just wait a moment until the blinds have been

Page 1814

1 pulled down so that you may leave the courtroom without the public seeing

2 you.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE HUNT: There's no change in the particular provision for the

5 next witness is there, Ms. Kuo?

6 MS. KUO: No, there isn't.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Have you got a pseudonym sheet for this

8 witness that we can have a look at?

9 MS. KUO: Yes, we have, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please make the solemn declaration on the

11 card that's being shown to you, sir.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


15 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please. The document headed FWS-142 will

16 be Exhibit P408.

17 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I believe it's 409.

18 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, you're right, 409, and it will be under

19 seal.

20 When you're ready, thank you, Ms. Kuo.

21 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour

22 Examined by Ms. Kuo:

23 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. You have been given certain protective measures in this case,

Page 1815

1 including the use of a pseudonym rather than your real name. Do you

2 understand that? You need to say yes or no.

3 A. I do.

4 Q. I'll ask you to look at the sheet of paper in front of you, and on

5 that sheet of paper, which is Prosecution Exhibit P409, you'll see

6 FWS-142. Underneath that, is that your name?

7 A. It is.

8 Q. Beneath your name, is that your birth date?

9 A. It is.

10 Q. And throughout the course of the trial, you will be referred to by

11 that number.

12 Now, Witness, in April of 1992, what town did you live in?

13 A. Foca.

14 Q. What part of Foca did you live in?

15 A. The centre.

16 Q. Who did you live with? Don't give us their names, but what their

17 relationship to you were.

18 A. My family.

19 Q. And does that include your wife?

20 A. It does.

21 Q. Did you have any children?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How many?

24 A. Two.

25 Q. Did they live with you as well?

Page 1816

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What ethnicity are you, sir?

3 A. Muslim ethnicity.

4 Q. And in April of 1992, what kind of work did you do?

5 A. I was in a non-production sector.

6 Q. When the war -- when did the war in Foca start?

7 A. The war started on the 8th of April, 1992.

8 Q. What happened on that day?

9 A. In the morning hours, fire started, individual shots could be

10 heard, but it grew into -- it escalated into bursts of fire, and after

11 that it was followed by heavy artillery.

12 Q. Did you go to work that day?

13 A. No.

14 Q. What did you do?

15 A. I was at home.

16 Q. How long did you stay at home?

17 A. I was there till I was arrested on the 13th of May.

18 Q. During that time when you stayed in your home, did any soldiers

19 come to your building?

20 A. They did on the 15th of April, at the time when they were

21 clearing, cleansing up that part of the town of people of Muslim

22 ethnicity.

23 Q. Would you tell us what the soldiers did when they came to your

24 building?

25 A. Well, they ordered that all people of Muslim ethnicity should come

Page 1817

1 out of the building and cross the street.

2 Q. Did you --

3 A. Then they singled out men, and some 20, 22 of them. They

4 handcuffed them and took them away.

5 Q. Were you among the men that they selected out?

6 A. Yes, I was. I was in the beginning, but when they took that first

7 group, they let me go and, I think, another three men.

8 Q. Do you know why you were not taken away, even though you were

9 selected?

10 A. No, I do not.

11 Q. Do you know where the men were taken that day who were taken

12 away?

13 A. Well, I learned that they had been taken to so-called Livade.

14 There was some warehouse there or some hangars, and that is where they

15 took them.

16 Q. How did you learn that they were taken there since you yourself

17 were not taken?

18 A. They took there a man whose wife worked for a trading company, and

19 she was a good friend of Dragan Causevic, called Coso, who had taken that

20 group away, so that through his father she interceded, managed to get him

21 back, and she learned from him that they had been taken there.

22 Q. Now, do you remember the identities of some of the men who were

23 taken away that day?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you tell us their names?

Page 1818

1 A. Murat Crneta, Munib Veiz, Zulfo Veiz. That's all I can remember

2 now.

3 Q. Did you see those three men again at some point?

4 A. I saw them after I was brought to the KP Dom.

5 MS. KUO: For the Court's reference, Munib Veiz is in Schedule C,

6 28, and Zulfo Veiz is C 29.

7 Q. Now, the people who took away these Muslim men, could you describe

8 who they were, what they were wearing?

9 A. Dragan Causevic, called Coso, was there; Kovac, the one who was

10 here in The Hague, his brother; and there were some outsiders, some

11 volunteer guards from Serbia Montenegro, but that was the patch that they

12 had.

13 Q. Were they in military uniform?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And were they Serb?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, you described that you were arrested on the 13th of May,

18 1992. Can you tell us how you were arrested?

19 A. I was taken away from my friend. I was sitting at home with two

20 neighbours when two men came to look for a neighbour, one of those who was

21 sitting with me. They took him away, and after a short while they came

22 back and to take me, too, allegedly. They had the order to take me to the

23 KP Dom so that I could make a statement there. And whilst we were in the

24 flat, they also made me write a statement as to what I was doing, where

25 had I been, had I attended some meetings, been on guard somewhere, and

Page 1819

1 things like that.

2 Q. The two men who came to take you, were they dressed in military

3 uniform?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The neighbour of yours whom they took away, was he Muslim or Serb?

6 A. Muslim.

7 Q. You mentioned that you were with another neighbour as well. Was

8 that neighbour taken away?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What ethnicity was he?

11 A. Serb.

12 Q. The statement that you were asked to make in -- while you were in

13 your flat, do you know what happened to that? Did you have to sign it?

14 A. I signed it, but what happened to the statement, I don't know.

15 Q. You were told -- what was the reason you were given for being

16 taken to KP Dom?

17 A. They said that they only knew they had to take me to the KP Dom so

18 that I could make a statement, and that I would be back the next day.

19 Q. Did they complain about the statement you made so that you would

20 have to make another statement at KP Dom, or was there any mention of why

21 you would have to make another statement?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When you arrived at KP Dom, where were you taken?

24 A. Well, they took me to the main gate, and there at the reception,

25 Milan Vukovic took down our names and particulars. And at the gate after

Page 1820












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1821

1 the search, the guard took us into the compound, and there in front of the

2 canteen, Mitar -- there was Mitar Rasevic standing there who said "hello"

3 to us. And the guard asked where to take us, and he answered, "Well, how

4 about 18, any room there?" And that one confirmed it, so that we were

5 taken to Room 18.

6 Q. How long were you kept in Room 18?

7 A. In Room 18 we were until about early May 1993.

8 Q. Were you put into a different room after that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Which room were you put into then?

11 A. Fourteen.

12 Q. And were you kept in any other rooms while you were at KP Dom?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Which ones?

15 A. Room 15.

16 Q. Do you know who was the warden at KP Dom while you were there?

17 A. According to information, Mr. Milorad Krnojelac.

18 Q. What was the information on which you base that?

19 A. A detainee was taken down to the gate, to that administrative

20 building, and after a while when he came back to the room, he said he had

21 seen Warden Krnojelac because he had been visited by his fellow workers

22 there.

23 Q. Did any of the guards ever refer to Milorad Krnojelac as the

24 warden?

25 A. Later on guards talked, because there were some prisoners who

Page 1822

1 wanted to speak to him, and they were saying that one had to write a

2 written application and submit it to the warden.

3 Q. Did you know of detainees who were able to meet with the warden?

4 A. This was the only instance I knew.

5 Q. Did you know Mr. Krnojelac from before the war?

6 A. Well, I knew him because he was a townsman in Foca, he was a

7 teacher there, but we were not close or anything.

8 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac while you were at KP Dom?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How often would you see him?

11 A. Two or three times, maybe.

12 Q. On those occasions, what was he doing?

13 A. Twice I saw him walk across the yard to the canteen, and once

14 while we were lined up in the yard of the compound, he was sitting on a

15 bench.

16 Q. Do you remember what he was wearing, civilian or military clothes?

17 A. On that occasion when he was sitting on the bench, he had a

18 military uniform on him. And on those two other occasions when he was

19 moving around, he -- perhaps he was in civilian on one of those occasions,

20 but I'm not quite sure.

21 Q. What was he doing when he was sitting on the bench; do you

22 remember?

23 A. Yes. It was when a prisoner had tried to escape, and they

24 nevertheless caught up with him and brought him back to the KP Dom. Then

25 they were taken out one room after the other, and Savo Todovic was there

Page 1823

1 taking us to task all the time while the Warden Krnojelac just sat there.

2 He did not say anything. And Savo Todovic was saying, "See how we caught

3 this gentleman who tried to escape. You see," he said, "the sound [as

4 interpreted]. Nobody has harmed him, which is just another proof how

5 correct is the army of Republika Srpska." And he insisted that he did not

6 do it on his own but that somebody was using him as a test.

7 Q. While this was happening, was the Warden Krnojelac in a position

8 to listen and to see all of this?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you ever speak with Mr. Krnojelac at KP Dom?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now, while you were at KP Dom, were any detainees beaten that you

13 know of?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would you tell us the names of these detainees and what you know

16 happened to them.

17 A. On one occasion, Hasan Dzano, and Emir, Enes were taken down to

18 the gate, and when they came back they were so badly beaten that they

19 could hardly move. And Mandzo was even barefoot; that is, he had his

20 shoes in his hands.

21 Q. Do you remember when that was?

22 A. I think it could have been somewhere around mid-June.

23 Q. Of what year?

24 A. 1992.

25 Q. Do you know who beat them?

Page 1824

1 A. No.

2 Q. And when you say they were taken to the gate, what gate are you

3 referring to?

4 A. The gate which led from the compound into the administrative

5 building. It is a metal door.

6 Q. Do you know of anyone else who was beaten?

7 A. In late June 1992 things got worse than ever. At that time I

8 think 40 to 45 men were taken away. They would be taken away around

9 dinner time in groups of about four or five. And I remember when they

10 were down at the gate, I said [as interpreted], Kisovac [phoen], Nisic,

11 Nurko Nisic, and Husko Rikalo, I think, because there were three Rikalo

12 brothers, and they would take them into the compound. And as soon as they

13 got them there, we could hear immediately screams and shouts, which meant

14 that the beating had started. And I heard a voice moaning, moaning, until

15 there was any strength left, and at that moment I also heard a male voice

16 yelling, "Nurko, do you know what happened to Bota?" And then I also

17 heard a shot.

18 Q. And after that, did you hear anything else?

19 A. The sounds of a car, a car, the engine being switched on in front

20 of the building, because either the exhaust pipe had fallen off or

21 something, but it was very loud when it was switched on. And it left, and

22 after a while that car came back again.

23 MS. KUO: I'm afraid it's 1.00, so we need to take our break.

24 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn now until 2.30.

25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

Page 1825

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Kuo.

3 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the witness mentioned Emir Mandzo, and he

4 is listed as incident number 37 on schedule B. And Hasan Dzano is listed

5 in schedule B at number 18.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

7 MS. KUO:

8 Q. Witness, before the lunch break you were describing hearing the

9 sound of a car. Do you know what kind of car it was specifically?

10 A. I think it was a Zastava Kedi.

11 Q. After you heard the car that night, did you ever see Nurko Nisic

12 or Husko Rikalo again?

13 A. No.

14 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Nurko Nisic, the incident where he is

15 beaten is described in the indictment at paragraph 5.27, and Husko Rikalo

16 is listed in schedule C at 21, as well as on schedule B at 46.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

18 MS. KUO:

19 Q. Were there other -- just going back to the same incident, you said

20 you heard somebody say something about Bota. Can you -- do you know what

21 that was in reference to?

22 A. Later on we received information that allegedly he ran into a mine

23 with his vehicle and that he remained disabled.

24 Q. Do you know if that person, Bota, was a Serb or a Muslim?

25 A. Serb.

Page 1826

1 Q. Did you ever hear other people being beaten at KP Dom?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you describe that for us, who and when?

4 A. Aziz Sahinovic was beaten by guard Jovan Savic. After the beating

5 he was in isolation cell for about two weeks, up to 20 days, actually. He

6 told me about this in December, when he came to our room, because the

7 night before he was taken away, in December, the guard, Savic, came to the

8 door, again called out Sahinovic's name. He probably thought that he was

9 being taken to a beating again. He went all white, as if there weren't a

10 drop of blood in his face. However, he was only transferred to another

11 room with six or seven more prisoners, and they spent the night there, the

12 11th, 12th December, between 6.00 and 6.30 in the morning.

13 Q. Do you know when Sahinovic was beaten?

14 A. I think this was the month of June 1992.

15 Q. Were there other people who were beaten, whom you actually heard

16 being beaten?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know Halim Konjo?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know whether he was beaten at KP Dom?

21 A. Yes. I omitted to mention that. Halim Konjo, Bico Salem, Granov

22 Adil, and Selimovic, nicknamed Spona, were among the first to be taken

23 out. When we were returning from lunch, I heard moans and screams

24 downstairs. I think that it was Halim Konjo's voice, and not a single one

25 of them ever returned.

Page 1827

1 Q. Do you remember when that was, what date, or approximately?

2 A. I think this was the beginning of June 1992.

3 Q. And do you remember where the sounds you heard were coming from,

4 what building or rooms?

5 A. Down there from where the administration was. On the ground floor

6 there were some rooms. I don't know exactly what.

7 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the people who were mentioned by this

8 witness, Halim Konjo is listed at schedule C, 13; Adil Granov, schedule C,

9 9; and Salem Bico, schedule C, 2. And Mr. Bico is also mentioned in the

10 indictment at paragraph 5.27. In addition, the previous person mentioned,

11 Aziz Sahinovic, is mentioned in the indictment, paragraph 5.29.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

13 MS. KUO:

14 Q. Did you know a Dzemo Balic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What happened to him at KP Dom?

17 A. When I was detained on that 13th of May, 1992, the prisoners in

18 the room talked that day, said that they had beaten him up and locked him

19 up in an isolation cell.

20 Q. The others in the room said who had beaten him up?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Was he returned to that room at some point, the room where you

23 were in?

24 A. I think he was returned about a month later to the same room.

25 Q. Did you see what condition he was in when he was brought back?

Page 1828

1 A. I could not notice anything, because after all, a period of one

2 month's time is long, but he said that he was beaten up badly. And that's

3 precisely what they did. When somebody was beaten up real bad, then they

4 would lock him up in an isolation cell and keep him there until there was

5 no trace of it on him any longer and then they would return him to the

6 room.

7 Q. Did you know Dzemo Balic's father's name?

8 A. No.

9 MS. KUO: Your Honours, there is a Balic, first name unknown,

10 listed at schedule B, number 4, as the son of Serif. And we're not sure

11 if this is the same person, but we bring it to your attention.

12 Q. Were there people whose injuries you did see, injuries from being

13 beaten?

14 A. I saw Vahida Dzemo's and Delic's too. I can't remember what his

15 first name was.

16 Q. What did you see on Mr. Delic?

17 A. During the day he was taken to the gate, and then about half an

18 hour later he was returned to the room. There were obvious injuries on

19 his head, in the area of his nose, and on his lips. He said that they

20 took him into a cell, that all of them were his neighbours, and that they

21 only put a tarpaulin over him and that they all started beating him. One

22 of them even said, "Let's see if you're going to come and hunt game near

23 my house again."

24 Q. Did he mention whether the neighbours were civilians or in a

25 military uniform?

Page 1829












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1830

1 A. He didn't say anything about that. He just said that they were

2 neighbours.

3 MS. KUO: There is a Delic mentioned in schedule B at number 14.

4 Q. Did you know and could you tell us what happened to Vahida Dzemo?

5 A. As for Dzemo Vahida, I saw his injuries and bruises in the area of

6 his eye when he went for lunch before he came to the room, to my room. He

7 spent some time in my room, and in mid-September he was taken away with a

8 group of the so-called plum pickers. They were taken out to pick plums.

9 MS. KUO: Mr. Vahida is mentioned at schedule C, 27, and also in

10 the indictment at paragraph 5.29.

11 Q. Did you know Salko Mandzo?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What happened to him?

14 A. On one occasion he was taken down to the gate. After about 20

15 minutes to half an hour he was simply pushed in through this metal door,

16 returned into the compound, and he had a bandage on the left-hand side,

17 somewhere around his chin or neck, something like that.

18 Q. When was this? Do you remember the approximate date?

19 A. I can't remember.

20 Q. What had happened to him?

21 A. Later on we found out that allegedly he was called out by

22 mistake. It wasn't him they were looking for. They were looking for Fudo

23 Mandzo. And indeed, after he was returned, sometime after that, Fudo

24 Mandzo was taken to the gate.

25 Q. And what happened to Fudo Mandzo?

Page 1831

1 A. As he was taken out then, he never returned again.

2 MS. KUO: Fudo Mandzo, Your Honours, is listed in schedule C at

3 number 16, and the incident regarding Salko Mandzo is listed as paragraph

4 5.28.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

6 MS. KUO:

7 Q. Did you have to work while you were at KP Dom?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What kind of work did you do?

10 A. Well, I did a bit of work around the compound, and then in

11 September a group was established of some 20 men, and we went to the mine.

12 Q. What kind of work did you have to do in the mine?

13 A. We went into the pit. We loaded the coal that we mined. We took

14 that coal out.

15 Q. Did you volunteer to do that work or were you forced to?

16 A. I was forced to. One day when I was in the compound, I was

17 cleaning beans, and Mr. Savo Todovic came to ask me whether I would work

18 in the mine. And I said that that was not really for me, that I was

19 exhausted, that I had no strength, that that was hard for me. He

20 answered, "Well, there is nothing for us to discuss really." And then

21 either before lunch or after lunch, a guard came, Vlatko Plevaljcic, and

22 read out a list of some 20 men who were assigned to go work in the mine

23 and that they were supposed to report the next morning at the gate at

24 6.30.

25 Q. And you mentioned that you started to work in the mine in

Page 1832

1 September. What year was that?

2 A. 1992, the 19th of September, 1992. Sorry. Sorry. 1993.

3 Q. When were you finally released from KP Dom?

4 A. On the 16th of August, 1994.

5 Q. And what were the circumstances of your release?

6 A. I went to be exchanged at the Bratstvo-Jedinstvo Bridge. However,

7 on that day, the exchange did not succeed. We were returned to Kula, we

8 spent the night there, and then the next day we were taken out to the

9 Bratstvo-Jedinstvo Bridge again and were exchanged.

10 Q. During your whole time at KP Dom, were you ever charged with

11 having committed a crime?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were you ever told why you were held there, even after you gave

14 your statement?

15 A. No. In the KP Dom I never gave any kind of statement at the KP

16 Dom.

17 Q. So even though you were told you were brought there to give a

18 statement, you were never actually asked to make a statement at KP Dom; is

19 that right?

20 A. No, never. Never.

21 Q. As a result of your detention at the KP Dom, how did you suffer

22 physically?

23 A. Well, I was exhausted, starving. I had lost a lot of weight. My

24 feet would swell a bit when I worked in the mine, and I had pain in my

25 back.

Page 1833

1 Q. How did you suffer emotionally or psychologically?

2 A. I was there. I was powerless. I thought I would never get out of

3 there, especially because they kept us hidden from the International Red

4 Cross.

5 MS. KUO: Those are all the questions from the Prosecution, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination. Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

10 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I would like to introduce myself to you. I

11 am Mihajlo Bakrac, attorney at law, one of the Defence counsel for the

12 accused Krnojelac.

13 Is it correct that you made statements, both to the investigators

14 of the OTP, as well as at the centre of security in Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it correct that you gave one statement on the 25th of June,

17 1996 to the investigators of the OTP and the other one on the 22nd of

18 October, 1998?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it correct that the statement you gave to the Sarajevo Security

21 Station was on the 14th? No. Sorry. On the 23rd of August, 1994?

22 A. Most probably. I don't know the exact date, but I did give a

23 statement.

24 Q. Can you agree with me when I say that in the statement that you

25 gave to the security station in Sarajevo, you pointed out that Savo

Page 1834

1 Todovic, who was otherwise in charge of us Muslims and for work

2 assignments, is it correct that a person named Savo Todovic was the person

3 who was in charge of assigning people to work and that according to your

4 own statement he was in charge of us Muslims?

5 A. Well, listen. In the compound he was the one who directly gave

6 orders to the detainees and who said things.

7 Q. I'm going to read a sentence from one of your statements, the one

8 that I hope you are not denying that you signed, the one that you made to

9 the Sarajevo Security Station: "A day before, I went to work in Rudo."

10 A. The mine. That's a mistake.

11 Q. Oh, yes, it is a mistake: "Savo Todovic, who is otherwise in

12 charge of us Muslims and for assigning people to work asked me whether I

13 would go to work in the Branko [phoen] mine in Miljevina."

14 A. Exactly. That's what he asked us.

15 Q. Is it correct that you stated this?

16 A. He was in charge of the entire compound within the compound. The

17 Muslims and the Serbs. He yelled at them just like he yelled at us. And

18 now, whether he made these lists on his own or whether he got these lists

19 from someone else or instructions from someone else, that I don't know

20 about.

21 Q. Were you familiar with the command and administration chain in the

22 KP Dom or are these your assumptions?

23 A. At the beginning of my testimony I said that a prisoner who went

24 to the administration building and came back to my room said literally

25 that he went to see Warden Krnojelac, because that was his colleague from

Page 1835

1 work, when he had a visitor, that is, and also later. Whoever was

2 supposed to go see the warden, Krnojelac, the guards would say that a

3 request in writing should be addressed to Krnojelac, the warden, in name.

4 Q. So those are all the circumstances and facts that led you to such

5 a conclusion or did you know anything else in greater detail?

6 A. That is all I know.

7 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that you stated that you saw Savo

8 Todovic wearing a military uniform, that you saw him walking around the

9 prison compound, and that you saw the guards in the prison compound

10 talking to him?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it correct that in the statements given to the investigators of

13 the OTP, you pointed out that until the outbreak of the war conflict, you

14 had not noticed that Milorad Krnojelac, before the outbreak of the war

15 conflict, was politically active?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Today you said that it seems to you that you saw Krnojelac twice

18 in a jacket, in civilian clothes.

19 A. Once.

20 Q. I'm sorry. Once in civilian clothes. Will you agree with me that

21 in your statement to the OTP you said that from time to time he wore

22 civilian clothes and from time to time he wore a uniform and that you did

23 not remember that he carried any weapons?

24 A. I agree as far as weapons are concerned. As for uniforms, I

25 think, I think, I saw him once in civilian clothes.

Page 1836

1 Q. Is it also correct that you decidedly stated to the investigators

2 of the OTP that you had never seen Milorad Krnojelac in the rooms where

3 the prisoners were held, nor did you ever see him in the KP Dom at night.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I don't know whether your answer was audible, but please speak

6 up.

7 A. Yes, yes. I had not seen him.

8 Q. In view of all the facts that we covered and what you observed and

9 concluded about Savo Todovic, and in view that you heard that Krnojelac

10 was a warden, only from the source that you already told us about, could

11 you then really acquire a proper picture of his jurisdiction in the KP

12 Dom, about his terms of reference there?

13 A. Whose terms of reference?

14 Q. Mr. Krnojelac's.

15 A. The very word "warden" -- as I said, Savo Todovic was the man who

16 communicated with us, Muslims and Serbs alike. Now, I repeat: Whether he

17 did it on his own or whether he had orders to do, that is something that I

18 do not know. But the warden, the warden, I think, is about everybody

19 else. That's what I think.

20 Q. Are you aware that a large number of witnesses, that is, more than

21 50 per cent of those who have testified so far before the Tribunal, used

22 words such as that Krnojelac was a warden de jure, not de facto, that he

23 was a warden on paper, that his opinion did not really carry much weight?

24 Did you come by such information when talking to other prisoners?

25 JUDGE HUNT: Don't answer it yet, please.

Page 1837

1 What's the relevance of that? He can't comment upon what other

2 people have said. You may make that comment at the end of the trial.

3 We're interested in what this witness can say. We're not interested in

4 what this witness has to comment about what other witnesses have said.

5 Is that the point that you're arising to make, Ms. Kuo?

6 MS. KUO: Exactly, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. It really -- I mean, Mr. Vasic asked a similar

8 question of a witness, but not in quite such extravagant terms, this

9 morning, and I should have stopped that one, but please do not ask

10 witnesses to comment upon the evidence given by others. It is of no

11 assistance to us at all.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies. Perhaps

13 I did not word it properly or perhaps I was not understood properly. My

14 learned friend asks the witness and the witness answers about certain

15 things that he heard from other prisoners, and I wanted to ask the witness

16 whether, in his conversations and comments with other detainees, he had

17 ever heard such a definition.

18 JUDGE HUNT: A number of witnesses have said that the guards, to

19 use a neutral term, have described your client as the warden. A number of

20 witnesses have said that they have heard other people who were inside the

21 KP Dom as saying that your client was the warden. You could ask that.

22 But you have asked far more than that. You have used the expressions that

23 they have given when giving their evidence. You are asking him to comment

24 upon the evidence they've given. Now, a witness may here have said in his

25 statement, as I think he agreed, that he used those appalling Latin terms

Page 1838












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1839

1 "de jure" and "de facto." A lot of people believe that's bad Latin, but

2 that's another matter. That is what he said in his statement, not that he

3 had heard another person inside the gaol say that, but that was his

4 description of your client's position in the KP Dom. So you are really

5 asking him to comment upon their evidence. Now, if you want to ask him

6 specifically how did he hear other inmates describe your client, by all

7 means ask that. That would be a permissible question.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. That was what I

9 intended to do, and I probably simply misphrased my question. What I

10 wanted to ask the witness was whether he had heard other detainees make

11 such comments.

12 JUDGE HUNT: I think you became a little over enthusiastic about

13 it, Mr. Bakrac, so let's go back and start again. Now, you ask him a

14 question along those lines, and there should be no objection to it.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Did you hear other detainees comment the terms of reference of the

17 Warden Krnojelac?

18 A. We did not hear any comments about Warden Krnojelac, but we were

19 surprised to see Todovic communicate with us directly of some people to

20 various tasks, put people in solitary confinement, and that's that.

21 Q. Thank you. You told us a while ago about your work in the

22 Miljevna mine, and you said that you were sent to work that in September

23 1993. Was your group the first one to go to work in Miljevina? Would you

24 know that?

25 A. Yes, as far as I know.

Page 1840

1 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in your statements, which I listed to

2 you before, you said that you had Gojko Jokanovic, a nurse in the KP Dom,

3 who visited you daily, and that twice a week Drs. Vladicic and Dobrilovic

4 also came to the penitentiary?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I'm not sure that people could hear an answer.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You also said -- or rather, no, what I'm asking is, did you say in

9 your statements that in the kitchen it was Krsto Krnojelac and somebody

10 called Raso were the cooks in the kitchen, and my question is, did they

11 also prepare food for you, for the detained Muslims?

12 A. Well, they were the chief -- they were the bosses there. The food

13 was prepared by Muslim detainees, and they were there simply to supervise

14 them.

15 Q. In the KP Dom when you arrived there, did you find there Serb

16 inmates serving there their terms following the judgement pronounced upon

17 them before the war?

18 A. I don't know what kind of, what kind of judgements those were, but

19 yes, there were a couple of such inmates.

20 Q. And this principle of cooking which you've just mentioned, did it

21 apply to them, too?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And who prepared food for them?

24 A. Well, the cooks. They had special food. They had better food,

25 more wholesome food.

Page 1841

1 Q. But it was those same cooks that we've mentioned who prepared

2 their food?

3 A. No, no, no, no. Not the Muslims, but Krsto and Raso.

4 Q. Were you ever put in solitary confinement -- did anyone beat you

5 while you were at the KP Dom?

6 A. No.

7 Q. A while ago you mentioned an incident where after some beating you

8 heard a vehicle and you said it was Lada -- it was a Lada Kedi. Does a

9 Lada Kedi have an engine which is different from the engine of a Zastava

10 101?

11 A. No, the engine is the same. It is merely the, the car which is

12 different.

13 Q. So how could you say that it wasn't a Zastava 101 but a Lada Kedi?

14 A. Well, I could do that because metal workers who came from the

15 metal workshop, they talked in the morning that it was a Kedi, and they

16 had washed it because it had bloodstains.

17 Q. How did they know whence the blood and where that vehicle had come

18 from?

19 A. Well, it used to happen after those -- in the end of June, as I

20 said, after beatings, when 40, 45 men were taken out in smaller groups,

21 and they worked in that metal shop and washed that car. Because that car

22 wouldn't stay there more than -- stay away more than ten minutes and it

23 would be back.

24 Q. Was that the only car? Was that the only car which they washed?

25 A. That morning that was the only one.

Page 1842

1 Q. I'm asking about other days.

2 A. I wouldn't know. I suppose as the need arose.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I have no further

4 questions.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination?

6 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, sir, for giving evidence. You

8 may now leave, but would you wait whilst the blinds are lowered so you may

9 leave the Court without being seen by the public.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE HUNT: The next witness has been waiting a long time to give

12 evidence, I gather. Her name has been on the list for some time. No

13 particular measures are required?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, it is Ms. Manas.

15 Your Honour, while we're waiting for Ms. Manas to come in, I just

16 want to tell you the following. We have -- just this morning we have

17 filed the list of witnesses for next week, but during this break, the

18 lunch break, I was informed that the Witness 47 on this list could not be

19 reached by the Witness Unit. It seems to be that he is in hospital or, at

20 least, under medical treatment somewhere, so this witness will not come.

21 We are trying to replace him with the witness 144. This witness

22 could come, but it is still not sure that the travel arrangements can be

23 made in time. This is for you to know.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, then, for the Defence to be

25 forewarned. Is the other witness ready to come in?

Page 1843

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE HUNT: Please take the solemn oath. I'm sorry, solemn

3 declaration.

4 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

5 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


7 JUDGE HUNT: Please sit down, madam.

8 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

9 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Manas.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. Ms. Manas, would you state your name, profession, and your

12 position in the Prosecutor's Office?

13 A. My name is Racine Manas. I'm a criminal investigator for the

14 Office of the Prosecutor.

15 Q. And since when do you work in the Prosecutor's Office?

16 A. I've been working in the Prosecutor's Office since April 1995.

17 Q. What did you do before you came to work in The Hague?

18 A. Prior to my work with the Office of the Prosecutor, I was employed

19 as a criminal investigator for the South African Police Services since

20 January 1983. I investigated all kinds of crimes, chiefly sexual abuses

21 and murders. My last office that I worked in I investigated mostly

22 political violent crimes.

23 Q. And in the year 1996, did you visit Foca?

24 A. Yes. We visited Foca on the -- June, June 16th to 18th.

25 Q. What was the purpose of this visit?

Page 1844

1 A. The purpose was -- of the visit was to visit various detention

2 facilities in order to make photographs and videos and forensic testing.

3 Q. And which particular places did you document? Did you have --

4 already decided upon that?

5 A. Yes, we did. We have various places that are documented. There

6 were Partizan Sports Hall, the KP Dom, the military complexes of Buk

7 Bijela, Velecevo prison complex, the Motel and Hotel Zelengora, the Aladza

8 mosque area, and the Foca High School, and there were a number of others.

9 Q. How did you document the places? What did you actually do?

10 A. Photographs were taken and video clips were made, and at some

11 places, especially the KP Dom, forensic testing was done.

12 Q. Who assisted you in performing this job?

13 A. The Office of the Prosecutor was assisted by a forensic Dutch

14 expert, Mr. Schouten.

15 Q. What was his specialisation, do you know that?

16 A. He was a forensic expert attached to the Tilberg forensic unit.

17 Q. And did you make the photo documentation of Foca that's Exhibit 18

18 in these proceedings, the photo binder?

19 A. Yes, we did. I made it together with Mr. Schouten.

20 Q. And did you also write a report on your findings?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this is the exhibit -- this is

23 not yet an exhibit, sorry. This is the document with the ID number 41 in

24 the binder, and it's called "Personal Observation of Crime Scene

25 Investigations As Follows," and then there's actually a description of

Page 1845

1 where the investigators went, including sketches and some findings. We

2 would like to enter this into evidence.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, what's your attitude to the document

4 going in to evidence?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have no objections.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. Well, that will be Exhibit P41.


8 Q. Ms. Manas, this report that you made, did Mr. Schouten assist you

9 in making this report as well?

10 A. Yes, to a certain extent. While the report I made is based on my

11 notes, personal notes I made on the site, which is in this book, and in

12 the evening I electrically transferred them to those notes which you have

13 in front of you.

14 Q. Thank you. Ms. Manas, Ms. Thapa has already testified about the

15 various places that were visited on this occasion and, we do not need to

16 repeat this evidence that was already given. I rather would like to ask

17 you a few additional questions to some of the places; especially, would

18 you explain how you organised your report and how it relates to the photo

19 binder.

20 A. Okay. The report refers to the sequence I visited, the different

21 facilities mentioned there, and -- here, I think that's it.

22 Q. Yes.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, Ms. Manas has the original

24 photo binder. It's only -- she brought it here because the quality of

25 these photos is much better than the copies that we have. It may be that

Page 1846

1 we have to look for a specific in the original photos.

2 Q. Well, would you --

3 JUDGE HUNT: Well, is it in evidence at the moment?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, it's Exhibit 18.

5 JUDGE HUNT: All right, thank you.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's Exhibit 18, the photo binder.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I know it was marked for identification 18, but it

8 has become an exhibit, has it? Perhaps the court deputy can help us.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, through, through --

10 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Thapa, was it?


12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. Thank you.


14 Q. Ms. Manas, in relation to this photo binder, I just would like to

15 know from you how the numbers under the photos relate to the indexes you

16 made.

17 A. Okay. It consists of 14 parts which is numbered from A to N.

18 Under each part we have a numbering from one to infinity, and so on and so

19 on. In other words, that it's a new set of numbers; it's not a

20 continuation of the numbers. And the index itself refers to the photos

21 themselves under each sections, and the numbers on the right-hand side of

22 the photograph refers to the numbers on the index, and the numbers

23 underneath the photos refers to the evidence reference numbers.

24 Q. Yes, thank you. Does the photo binder include all photographs you

25 made on this mission to Foca?

Page 1847












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Page 1848

1 A. No, not really. Some of the photographs were of a poor quality,

2 and only the photographs that were really relevant, relevant in the

3 aspect -- I mean, that -- discussed by witnesses over their testimonies

4 that were included in this album.

5 Q. Yes, thank you. Witness, I just would like to discuss one photo

6 related to Partizan, and it's the photo 7295. To make the process --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers slow down a bit, please.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, sorry.

9 Q. Ms. Manas, to make it shorter, you can always use these copies and

10 you do not have to look for the original.

11 Ms. Manas, what do you see on this photo? Can you point out

12 the -- it's actually a double.

13 A. You're missing the other part.

14 Q. Could you just tell us what you see. This building -- let's start

15 on the -- it's a broad, it's a broad photo; therefore, we have two pieces

16 of it. If you start on the --

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. This one that I'm pointing at is the Partizan Sports Hall, and

20 this is the SUP building, the Foca police building, and this is the

21 municipal building.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Ms. Manas was pointing first on the building

23 with the red roof on the right-hand side on the photo as Partizan, then to

24 the white building in the middle of the photo as the SUP, and then to the

25 left-hand side building --

Page 1849

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- the municipality building.

3 Q. Ms. Manas, why did you document this place?

4 A. I wanted to show the close proximity of these buildings to the

5 Partizan Sports Hall where victims were detained in this particular sports

6 hall, and the victims that were detained there complained of alleged -- of

7 mistreatment and rapes.

8 Q. Did you interview some of these detainees that were detained in

9 Partizan?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The photos can be taken away.

12 Q. And what did they tell you what happened to them in Partizan?

13 A. As far as I remember, this was sometime ago now, the witnesses

14 alleged that they were taken out of Partizan to other various places and

15 they were raped. And this particular Partizan Sports Hall was not far

16 from the SUP building. It was 113.5 metres, and whatever that was taken

17 place, the witnesses alleged that could be seen from the police, police

18 station, and they -- when they then reported this incident or incidents to

19 the Foca SUP commander.

20 Q. Yes. And you said you measured the -- you measured the distance

21 between Partizan and the SUP building, which way did you measure? What

22 did you measure exactly?

23 A. From the entrance of the Partizan Sports Hall to the entrance of

24 the SUP building, it took the pathway leading down, if you look through

25 the pictures from 7308 to 7309, it measures -- 7308 to 7311 -- to 10. Go

Page 1850

1 down to 7311, that will bring you to 113.5 metres as the distance.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, have you finished?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, why do we need this detail? I

5 can understand that you want to refer to this subject matter as part of

6 the attack upon the civilian population --


8 JUDGE HUNT: -- for certain purposes, but do we really need this

9 detail?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I was just -- I just wanted to mention that I

11 don't want to show all these photos because I would like to refer you

12 simply to the binder so you can look afterwards.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. But why do we need all this detail about how

14 far it is from one building to the other?

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Because the Prosecution thinks that it is

16 very important to state here and to bring in evidence showing --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please slow down; the

18 interpreters cannot follow.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: To show that what happened in Partizan was

20 well visible for the police.

21 JUDGE HUNT: But what does it prove in this case?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It proves the attack, that the attack on the

23 Muslim population, was not -- nothing that occurred without the, the

24 authorities knowing, just on the contrary. This is the central policy

25 element.

Page 1851

1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, I hope we're not going to have to spend

2 too much time on that.


4 JUDGE HUNT: There's a very real issue as to whether you need to

5 prove a policy, but I won't worry you about that.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, we can move on. This is

7 actually the only question that I wanted to raise in relation to Partizan.

8 Q. Ms. Manas, did you also go to the Foca High School?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Did you speak with the director of the Foca High School?

11 A. Yes. I spoke to the director of the Foca High School, a

12 Mr. Milenko Panic.

13 Q. And --

14 A. And he told me that the Serb -- non-Serb population were kept at

15 the school for their own protection, and they were free to go whenever

16 they wanted to leave.

17 Q. Did you ask him for this information, or did he volunteer it?

18 A. No, he volunteered this information.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to show the witness now the

20 photo 7332 of Exhibit 18.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please remember to pause

22 between question and answer. Thank you.

23 JUDGE HUNT: That was obviously from one of the interpreters who

24 has the same problem we've had throughout with everybody speaking the same

25 language, so we must all comply with it.

Page 1852

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Witness, when you stood in front of the Foca High School and you

3 looked onto the opposite side of the River Cehotina, onto which

4 neighbourhood did you look?

5 A. That would be the Cezluk [phoen] neighbourhood.

6 Q. And the photo now on the ELMO, is that what you saw?

7 A. Yes. I can identify it because of the Serb orthodox church, the

8 same mukala [phoen] up there.

9 Q. And did you see any destruction in this neighbourhood?

10 A. No. It looked strange. There was no destruction in that

11 neighbourhood around the church.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. This photo can be removed from

13 the ELMO.

14 Q. Did you see destruction in other parts of the town?

15 A. Yes, I did. In the neighbourhood Aladza, Donje Polje, Gornje

16 Polje, and the whole -- the old Foca town centre.

17 Q. And what kind of neighbourhoods were these, do you know that?

18 A. From my knowledge, I think they were Muslim neighbourhoods.

19 Q. And how could you know that?

20 A. From one of the photographs we have, when you see the destructions

21 around it, I could say there's a mosque there, so I would say it's a

22 Muslim neighbourhood.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we show the witness the photo 7290.

24 Q. Ms. Manas, could you point out the mosque, if there is any, on the

25 photo.

Page 1853

1 A. This is a very bad copy here.

2 JUDGE HUNT: You'll have to have one of the microphones in your

3 direction so that we can hear it.

4 A. Sorry. It's down there.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you. Ms. Manas was pointing on

6 the -- right into the middle of the photo where there is destruction and a

7 building with a round roof. Thank you.

8 Q. Did you document destructions in these neighbourhoods you just

9 mentioned on a video?

10 A. Yes, Mr. Schouten did.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, with your permission, the

12 Prosecution would like to show a brief video segments of these

13 destructions and would then request it to be entered into evidence as

14 Exhibit 410.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection to its admission into

16 evidence, Mr. Bakrac?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: It will be Exhibit P410.


20 JUDGE HUNT: And if we could ask to play it.


22 Q. Could we please see it, and could you please comment on what we

23 see, Ms. Manas.

24 A. Yes, I'll do that.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 1854

1 A. Well, this neighbourhood is around the Foca High School. As you

2 can see, behind the school there was destruction of houses.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. This is still the Aladza neighbourhood?

6 A. Yes, it is. No, this is the -- this area is -- oh. This is the

7 Aladza mosque area. The adjacent road is the Milica Osmana Djikica. As

8 you can see, remnants of the grave sites.

9 Q. Thank you. Oh, no, it continues.

10 [Videotape played]

11 A. Further destruction around the mosque.

12 Q. Yes, thank you. You have already mentioned the Aladza mosque and

13 where it was situated, and we saw it briefly in the video.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we now have the photo 7389.

15 Q. Is that where the mosque was?

16 A. Yes. Plus you can see by the foundation which we found, remnants

17 of the foundation and the site.

18 Q. Yes. Thank you. Did you ever get any photos showing what the

19 Aladza mosque looked like when it was still standing?

20 A. Yes. Recently, in December 2000, the Office of the Prosecutor

21 interviewed a historian, and he presented us with a book, "The Art in

22 Herzegovina," in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there are some pictures in it

23 which shows the Aladza mosque, what it looked like before that.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, these would now be new

25 exhibits, and I suggest that we put it on the ELMO and we give it a new

Page 1855

1 exhibit number, because they were not taken by the investigative team but

2 are taken from the book just mentioned.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Have they been shown to the Defence?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: They have received a copy.

5 Q. What is this?

6 A. This is the Aladza mosque before the destruction, which is taken

7 from the book "The Art In Bosnia-Herzegovina."

8 Q. And do you also have a photo from the interior which was also in

9 the book?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you please put it on the ELMO as well.

12 A. This is the interior of the mosque.

13 Q. Yes, thank you. Would you please return to the photo of the

14 interior just before this one. Ms. Manas, when you look at the bottom

15 left-hand side, there is a pillar.

16 A. Yes. That's -- according to the historian, he said it was

17 a stalactite. And we, at a recent investigation done by the Bosnian State

18 Commission in September, year 2000, a representative from the office of

19 the OTP, Mr. Brian Strongman, and investigator Don King, they were

20 observers to an excavation done by the Bosnian State Commission, and

21 during the excavation they found various parts resembling the Aladza

22 mosque and something of that in a photograph just taken by the Office of

23 the Prosecutor.

24 Q. We come to this later.

25 A. Okay.

Page 1856












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Page 1857

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I just want to draw the attention of the

2 Court and the Defence to this particular feature on the photo.

3 Your Honours, we have also prepared a short video sequence from

4 the Aladza mosque when it was still standing, and it would -- we would

5 like to show it and would like to have it entered into evidence as Exhibit

6 411. It's just a brief one- or two-minute video.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Has the Defence seen that?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. They received the video as well.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We have no objection, simply because

13 we received the video copies only today.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We are watching it, Mr. Bakrac. The problem

15 is we only produced it recently because we also received this only

16 recently.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I won't ask Mr. Bakrac whether he objects to it

18 until after we have seen it and he has seen it.

19 So you can express a view about its admissibility after you have

20 seen it, Mr. Bakrac.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. We couldn't do it

22 earlier.

23 [Videotape played]


25 Q. Ms. Manas, could you comment on what we see?

Page 1858

1 A. Now we're looking at the Aladza mosque, its exterior, minaret.

2 Q. Can you tell us the date when this was made?

3 A. From the video itself, it was made on the 18th April 1990.

4 Q. This round building, what was it?

5 A. That was the water fountain. You also find tombstones around the

6 premises.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: There should be some -- there should be

8 another sequence. Yes.

9 [Videotape played]

10 A. This is the inside of the mosque. You have seen the pictures

11 earlier. This is actually the ceiling of the mosque.


13 Q. Is this the pillar you were talking about?

14 A. Yes. That's the stalactite and the stalagmite at the bottom.

15 That's a pillar.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, now, Mr. Bakrac, have you any objection to that

18 going into evidence?

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I shall give you an

20 answer if you allow me for a minute to consult with my client.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Certainly.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no objections.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. That will be Exhibit P411.


25 Q. Ms. Manas, you showed us the empty space where this mosque

Page 1859

1 was -- had been standing. Did you find the rubble of the mosque actually

2 somewhere else?

3 A. Yes, we did. We found it opposite KP Dom on the river bank.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this would now be the third

5 video. We have a short video sequence of this rubble in front of the KP

6 Dom.

7 JUDGE HUNT: We'll give Mr. Bakrac the opportunity and his client

8 the opportunity of seeing it before I ask him whether he has any objection

9 to it.


11 JUDGE HUNT: So it can be shown.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

13 Q. Could you again then comment on what we see, Ms. Manas.

14 [Videotape played]

15 A. The building on the right is the KP Dom. This is the river bank

16 of the Drina River. This is the rubble from the mosque. The only way we

17 identify it is because of its marble structure and some ornamental designs

18 on it. You can note the impressions, ornamental design, on the stone

19 structure that you'll find inside the mosque.

20 Q. What is this?

21 A. This was a kind of a grave. It resembled a kind of a grave,

22 recently made. The camera is focused towards a boot. It was visibly

23 seen, and a piece of clothing as well. Here you find a pillar, the

24 outside of the mosque.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you.

Page 1860

1 JUDGE HUNT: Do you want to speak to your client, Mr. Bakrac, as

2 to the admissibility of that?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

4 Your Honour, the Defence is not denying the authenticity of the

5 recording, of the time and place when it was made; however, the Defence

6 cannot be certain that these parts that are being shown are indeed parts

7 of the Aladza mosque, and it is in that sense that we do object.

8 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think you're being asked to make that

9 admission. All you're being asked to agree, that that is a video showing

10 this rubble. Now, the witness has given certain evidence that parts of it

11 are identifiable with the mosaics or particular decoration inside the

12 mosque.

13 There may be some other evidence or not, but it's up to us in the

14 end to determine it. You're not being asked to admit it. If it's

15 relevant in the case and the fact that the rubble outside the KP Dom

16 happens to be that of some of the mosque that was destroyed, it's a matter

17 for the Prosecution to prove.

18 You are not being asked to admit that fact at the moment. You are

19 only being asked to admit that that is a video -- or to agree to the

20 admissibility of that video as something that was seen at the time that it

21 was taken on the slopes of the river near the KP Dom. That's all.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully agree, but I

23 thought it was necessary to object the way I did. But we do accept this

24 material as authentic, and we agree that it can be admitted into evidence

25 as such.

Page 1861

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. And it has been noted on the transcript

2 you don't admit the description given to it. That's perfectly all right.

3 That will be Exhibit P412.


5 Q. Ms. Manas, do you have any recent photos from the same dump site?

6 A. Yes, we do. There were photos taken from an excavation site.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to show the witness these

8 photos, and the Defence has copies of these photos.

9 Q. Can you tell us what we see here on this photo?

10 A. According to the historian, he identified it as stalagmite or

11 stalactite from the inside of the mosque because of the characteristic of

12 the colours on the design here. Red was chiefly used inside the mosque,

13 because no colours were used outside, so this would belong to the interior

14 of the mosque.

15 Q. How could the historian be sure that it was from the Aladza

16 mosque?

17 A. They viewed both the pictures, and from my understanding and from

18 his interview, he had very good knowledge about the Aladza mosque.

19 Q. Was the Aladza mosque the only mosque in Foca, according to this

20 historian, which had such stone pillars?

21 A. Yes. The historian said that it was very unique because the

22 Aladza mosque is the only mosque with such characteristic inside the

23 mosque. You will never find this in any other mosque in eastern Europe.

24 Q. And can we see the next photo? What would this be?

25 A. The historian identified as part of a pillar, the red - you can't

Page 1862

1 see it on the - the red painting, which is also characteristic from the

2 inside of the mosque.

3 Q. And the next photo, please, what is it?

4 A. This one was identified by the historian as a pillar from the

5 exterior of the mosque which actually holds the pillars to the mosque

6 itself.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --


9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise for interrupting

10 Ms. Manas, but I would kindly ask her to go more slowly through this

11 material because it's difficult for us to follow the descriptions when the

12 photographs are put on the monitor or, rather, on the ELMO so fast. We

13 find it difficult to follow the description compared to what we see on the

14 monitor. Perhaps someone can first tell us the number of the photograph

15 so that we could get it ready.

16 JUDGE HUNT: That would also assist you so that when you have the

17 transcript, you can compare the description with what you see on the

18 photograph. But it's fair enough, I think. Let's have the number of the

19 document, if there is one.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We have not yet a number. We would -- it has

21 an internal Prosecution numbering but, of course, not yet an exhibit

22 number.

23 JUDGE HUNT: But for us to look at the transcript later with the

24 photographs in front of us, it's essential that they have some

25 identification --

Page 1863


2 JUDGE HUNT: -- on the document itself.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Ms. Manas, would you always tell us the

4 number on the back side of the photo first, and then show us maybe a

5 little bit longer this photo.

6 JUDGE HUNT: And I think that both Mr. Bakrac and the interpreters

7 would like you to speak a little more slowly, please.

8 THE WITNESS: Sorry. I'll do so.

9 A. The first picture, A34 [Realtime transcript read in error "834"],

10 which is marked on the rear of the photograph, this represents the

11 stalagmite inside the mosque. The historian identified --

12 JUDGE HUNT: Sorry, your microphone is not on. Thank you.

13 A. I shall repeat again. The first picture represents -- A34

14 represents a stalagmite from the interior of the mosque.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --


17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise for interrupting

18 again, but I heard in the interpretation 834, and on the photograph -- I

19 mean, I heard 834, so I was just wondering.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That's the way the court reporter has it, but

21 it was A34, I think, wasn't it?

22 A. A34, A, alpha 34.


24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, maybe I -- can I suggest

25 something? We maybe give those photos ID numbers which later could be, if

Page 1864

1 it is accepted, become the P number.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, the number on the back is sufficient

3 identification, isn't it?


5 A. As I was saying, the unique colours on this pillar or stalactites,

6 the red colour which was identified by the historian, which is very unique

7 to the Aladza mosque.

8 Q. And the next photo, what is the identification number?

9 A. Bravo 3. This is a pillar, also you can say it's a stalagmite or

10 a stalactite. The historian identified as a pillar from the mosque

11 because of the painting, as you would see on the right -- right at the

12 bottom, some red painting on it. It's the only way he identified it as

13 part of the mosque structure.

14 Bravo 13, this is the pillar which was from the exterior of the

15 mosque. The historian identified it by its metal ring because this

16 actually held the structures in support.

17 Q. Yes. And the last photo?

18 A. Alpha 28. As you can see, this is a stone pillar that was taken

19 which is also identified from the exterior of the Aladza mosque.

20 Q. Ms. Manas, can you tell us, this photo, now we can see some people

21 on the photo. When were these photos made, who made them, and why?

22 A. These photos were made on the 18th of September, as you can note -

23 it's reflected on it - last year. The Bosnian State Commission for

24 finding of missing persons conducted this excavation in order to exhume,

25 maybe, corpses; and, of course, they exhumed this site and they found

Page 1865












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1866

1 rubbles. And from the office of the Prosecutor, the forensic project

2 manager, Mr. Brian Strongman, and investigator, Don King, was present

3 during the excavation as observers, and they made these photographs.

4 Q. Yes, thank you.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the Prosecution is in the

6 position to present this historian as a witness, but we showed the photos

7 through Ms. Manas to avoid to have another -- an expert here in the

8 courtroom.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, there was an awful lot of hearsay there, if I

10 may say so --


12 JUDGE HUNT: -- which may or may not be accepted. Perhaps you if

13 you could have a discussion with counsel about whether they require you to

14 produce the expert --


16 JUDGE HUNT: -- and then you can resolve that problem before we

17 proceed next week.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Your Honour, but nevertheless, the

19 Prosecution would like to enter these photos into evidence.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection to them being made exhibits?

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE HUNT: How many photographs were there in all?


24 JUDGE HUNT: How many photographs were there in all?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Four. Oh, including the photographs from the

Page 1867

1 book, it was altogether seven.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Seven. Well, those seven photographs will be Exhibit

3 P413.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you.

5 JUDGE HUNT: And they will bear after the numbers 413 the

6 identifying reference on the back of them.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you. Your Honour, it's now 4.00.

8 JUDGE HUNT: It is indeed. We will resume next Monday at 9.30.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m., to

10 be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of January,

11 2001, at 9.30 a.m.