Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2334

1 Monday, 29 January 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor

8 versus Milorad Krnojelac.

9 WITNESS: FWS-144 [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic?

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]

14 Q. Good morning, Witness.

15 A. Good morning, Your Honours and everybody.

16 Q. Thank you. Yesterday -- no, sorry, on Thursday, you told us

17 about your detention in the KP Dom. Could you tell us if, during the stay

18 there, the detainees received any orders from guards?

19 A. Orders from guards? Only within the compound, if there was

20 something to be swept, to be cleaned and such like.

21 Q. Thank you. And could you tell us if detainees could refuse those

22 orders?

23 A. No, they could not.

24 Q. Could somebody change the orders issued by guards?

25 A. We did not know if somebody could change them or not but we could

Page 2335

1 not refuse to comply with the guards' orders.

2 Q. Thank you. And let us then -- tell us, then, which are the

3 special circumstances which made you say to the OTP investigators that

4 nobody could change or annul Savo Todovic's orders?

5 A. That was our opinion, the view of the detainees.

6 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the detainees were taken to work in the

7 Miljevina mine. Could you tell us when was it that the first group went

8 to work in the mine, if you know?

9 A. I cannot recall the date. I believe it was sometime in mid-1992,

10 although that is not accurate but I can't remember the date.

11 Q. Thank you. Did you tell OTP investigators that the conditions in

12 the KP Dom improved after the Red Cross came in 1993?

13 A. Yes, definitely.

14 Q. Thank you. Did you tell the OTP investigators which were the

15 criteria which governed which detainees would be taken for beating?

16 A. Yes. Some of the criteria were the ethnic origin, the political

17 affiliation, people of prominence in the municipality of Foca, and

18 possession of weapons.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I remind you, sir, please wait for the translation to

20 finish of the question before you begin your answer.

21 A. Okay.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic?

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Q. I will now read out to you part of your statement to the OTP, in

25 which you listed some other criteria. It is document ID 274, 274A, page 8

Page 2336

1 passage 4:

2 "Later on we analysed who had been taken away and which could

3 have been the criteria according to which they were picked out, and we

4 arrived at the following categories: Those who had had a quarrel with a

5 Serb before the war, those who were party members, those who had money,

6 those accused of possessing weapons."

7 Did you list these criteria to the OTP investigators?

8 A. Yes. I listed all these criteria that you just mentioned, but my

9 first statements to the investigators of this Honourable Court were given

10 a few years ago, so that it is quite possible that my statements do not

11 fully tally. But that was roughly it.

12 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what kind of a guard was Risto

13 Ivanovic?

14 A. Risto? He was very good to all the inmates, and I think that

15 every inmate will confirm it.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. Don't mention it.

18 Q. From your statement to the OTP, I shall also read a few sentences,

19 ID 274, 274A, page 8, passage 1:

20 "The bravest among us which come to the front rooms to watch and

21 listen, they claimed that they had seen a vehicle with its lights on

22 approach the front gate of the prison when the beating -- after the

23 beating stopped. Then they saw this vehicle on the bridge closest to the

24 KP Dom with headlights on. It stopped on the bridge."

25 Did you state this to OTP investigators?

Page 2337

1 A. Yes. I did say that the vehicle was -- that the engine of the

2 vehicle was switched on in front of the prison's gate, because we could

3 recognise it as it had a characteristic sound. The vehicle didn't have

4 the exhaust pipe. And after the beatings it would move away towards the

5 bridge. And when the headlights would go out on the bridge, then the

6 vehicle would come back to the building of the camp.

7 Q. I'd like to ask you something else about this passage. You told

8 my learned friend that you had seen that vehicle, whereas from the text

9 which I have just quoted to you, it transpires clearly that you had been

10 told that by those who had seen the vehicle. Now, which of the two is

11 true?

12 A. The vehicle could not be seen by night; one could only hear it.

13 But I could see that vehicle from my dormitory, which was on the topmost

14 floor of my pavilion. But in daytime, when it moved around the town -

15 because from my dormitory we could watch the road to the town bakery which

16 was not far from the camp - it was only then that we could see that

17 vehicle and we recognised it by the sound it made. But that vehicle also

18 came to the workshop, and I had to maintain it and repair it.

19 Q. Did you see that vehicle in the evening hours or did you hear it

20 from the stories of prisoners who were with you in the room?

21 A. In the evening hours nobody could see that vehicle; one could only

22 hear it, as I told you about its characteristics.

23 Q. Are you aware that in front of the KP Dom there is a road which

24 leads to the hospital, that is, towards the town?

25 A. Yes, quite so.

Page 2338

1 Q. And could you see that street from your room?

2 A. Only a fragment, as I told you a moment ago; only the part in

3 front of the town bakery. The rest of it was invisible to us.

4 Q. But could you tell us how large is that section of the road that

5 you could see?

6 A. I'd say about a hundred metres.

7 Q. Are you aware that on the other side, that is, on the opposite

8 bank of the Drina, there is another road?

9 A. On the other side of the Drina was the -- there was the highway,

10 Sarajevo-Gorazde.

11 Q. And could you see that road from your room?

12 A. Yes, I could see about a thousand metres of it.

13 Q. Would you know if there were other cars in the town with their

14 exhaust pipes missing?

15 A. Well, I suppose so, but that vehicle was always in front of the KP

16 Dom building, and we were very familiar with it, we who went out of the

17 prison compound, and I was particularly familiar with it because I worked

18 in the workshop which maintained those vehicles.

19 Q. You said that you were engaged in the maintenance of vehicles.

20 Then why wasn't the exhaust pipe of this vehicle repaired?

21 A. I guess they couldn't find it during the war operations.

22 Q. Did this vehicle come to the KP Dom daily; every morning, every

23 day, every evening?

24 A. Mostly only when those individuals were taken out in the evening.

25 Q. You said that you used to see it by day passing by the bakery.

Page 2339

1 A. Yes. I saw it in daytime. I suppose it also had some other

2 chores.

3 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us: This part in front of the bakery,

4 where is it in relation to the KP Dom and its buildings?

5 A. In relation to my dormitory, it is to the left, towards the town.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We have no

7 further questions.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, any re-examination?

9 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you sir, for giving evidence. You may now

11 leave. Wait for a moment, though, whilst the blinds are pulled down

12 on -- that's your right side of the courtroom so you may leave without the

13 public seeing you. But you are now free to go.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know who is taking the next witness, but

16 we -- at least, I have not seen a list for this week.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we filed the list last week, as

18 usual, and the next witness will be led by myself.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Well --

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the witness has the same protection

21 measures.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you for that. At least we know that much.

23 What is the number given to the --

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's the number 104 [sic].

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

Page 2340

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, while the witness changes, I

2 have one procedural matter related to the Witness 159, who will come after

3 the witness who comes now, and I would like to go into closed session,

4 because I have to give some details of this particular witness.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE HUNT: Closed session or private session?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 [Private session]

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3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE HUNT: We are now in open session. The witness

5 identification sheet for FWS-109 will be Exhibit P420 and it will be under

6 seal.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please make the solemn declaration in the

9 form of the document that is being handed to you, sir.

10 WITNESS: FWS-109

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

15 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Good morning, Witness.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. Witness, you have a sheet of paper in front of you, and when you

20 look at the sheet of paper, the name under the witness number 109, is that

21 your name?

22 A. It is.

23 Q. And the date below the name, is it your birth date?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. Underneath the -- your birth date is a location. Is it the place

Page 2345

1 you worked before the war?

2 A. It is.

3 Q. And under this location, there is a name. Is this the name of the

4 director of this place, of your working place?

5 A. It is.

6 Q. And under this name, there is a profession. Is that your

7 profession, the profession you had?

8 A. It is.

9 Q. And below is yet another name. Is that the name of one -- of a

10 colleague, of a person with that same profession?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Yes. In the course of your testimony, whenever you would like to

13 mention your -- the director of your working place, don't say the name,

14 simply say "director." And whenever you want to mention this other --

15 your colleague, simply say "colleague" and do not mention his name.

16 A. I know, yes.

17 Q. And under there are yet two more names on this list with code

18 numbers attached to them. When you want to refer to these witnesses,

19 please do not tell their names but their pseudonym number.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, what about the name of the place

21 where he worked? Is there some code that we are going to use for that? I

22 assume that that's a translation of the B/C/S.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think he should simply say "my working

24 place".

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

Page 2346

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

2 Q. Witness, what is your ethnicity?

3 A. Bosniak, Muslim.

4 Q. Were you married before the war?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you have children?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where did you live before the war?

9 A. In Foca.

10 Q. In which neighbourhood?

11 A. Gornje Polje.

12 Q. Were you a member of any of the newly formed political parties

13 before the war?

14 A. Never, none.

15 Q. When the war broke out in Foca, did you participate in the

16 fighting?

17 A. No. In fact, I fled Foca so as not to go into fighting.

18 Q. And did you have a weapon?

19 A. No, except a small pistol which I had. It was an official weapon

20 and I had it based on a permit, a weapon permit. It was in my car.

21 Q. Yes. You said that you left Foca. When did you leave Foca?

22 A. On April 12th, I left.

23 Q. Why did you leave? Was there a particular reason that you left on

24 that day?

25 A. I found out that colleagues and doctors were taken away from the

Page 2347

1 health centre, so I was concerned that they would take me away too,

2 because I had a call asking me to come to work. So I simply got into my

3 car and I went to Montenegro, to Igalo to be precise.

4 Q. What about your family? Did they join you?

5 A. They didn't. They thought that nobody would touch them. My wife

6 was not in good health then and is not still today so I left by myself,

7 thinking that it wouldn't last, that the situation would calm down and

8 become normal.

9 Q. And how long did you stay in Igalo?

10 A. I stayed there until May 25th, 1992.

11 Q. Did you feel safe in Igalo while you stayed there?

12 A. I didn't, despite the fact that I was legally registered there

13 with the Red Cross and received assistance. However, some leaders from

14 Foca would come there and participate in public debates, and a certain

15 kind of uncertainty emerged. There were all kinds of rumours saying that

16 the Montenegrin coast was full of Green Berets, who were prone to

17 plotting, so that's what the situation was like after those open, public

18 debates.

19 Q. While were you in Igalo, did you get information about Foca?

20 A. Well, very few because there were no telephone lines, so I

21 practically didn't know what was going on, because we couldn't really make

22 any telephone contact.

23 Q. Did you meet the director of your working place while you were in

24 Igalo? And please do not mention the name.

25 A. Yes, I met him.

Page 2348

1 Q. What --

2 A. And I learned certain things from him.

3 Q. What did he tell you?

4 A. He told me that it was terrible in Foca, that it was chaotic

5 there.

6 Q. Did he mention that he had been arrested?

7 A. Yes, and that he was released. There was some kind of exchange

8 and I'm not sure who else was involved. And then he told me that he was

9 in a camp, in KP Dom, for some seven to eight days.

10 Q. Did he mention to you who was the warden of --

11 A. He did, yes.

12 Q. Who was the warden of the KP Dom before the war?

13 A. Radojica Tesovic was the warden before the war.

14 Q. Did you know him?

15 A. I know Radojica.

16 Q. Was he politically involved in the work of the SDS, this Radojica

17 Tesovic?

18 A. I believe he was not. I believe he was not at the time, because I

19 met him, I don't know exactly when, before the war, but we were together

20 sitting in a group, and we were talking and, at the time he was condemning

21 the policy of those political parties.

22 Q. When you met your director of your working place, did he mention

23 if Mr. Tesovic was still the warden of the KP Dom?

24 A. Well, he did mention him, but he knew that Radojica was not the

25 warden any more and he stated that Milorad Krnojelac was now the warden,

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Page 2350

1 and that none of those people who were in the administration before were

2 still there.

3 Q. Did you know Mr. Krnojelac from before the war?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How do you know him?

6 A. Well, I knew him from our childhoods. (redacted).

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted). He was a teacher. We knew each other. We would meet each

9 other every day when going to work. And he was also a teacher of

10 (redacted).

11 Q. Was Mr. Krnojelac involved in politics or a party member of the

12 new parties, do you know?

13 A. I don't know. He always looked to me as if he wasn't interested

14 in anything else but his work and his family, and we always greeted each

15 other very friendly. I never saw him engaged in any kind of political

16 activity. I was not interested in it myself so that's about it.

17 Q. Do you know if Mr. Krnojelac served in the army?

18 A. Yes. He served the compulsory military service.

19 Q. And did he continue to be a member of the army as a reservist? Do

20 you know that?

21 A. He didn't. All of us, prior to the war, were reservists, all of

22 us who had served the army. Some of us had still some kind of a rank,

23 lieutenant or captain or something like that. I think that Milorad, in

24 fact, had a rank of reserve captain.

25 Q. And did you see him in uniform before the war?

Page 2351

1 A. Only once during an exercise. We had an exercise, military

2 exercise, a few years prior to the war, and, yes, one officer had to be

3 promoted so they organised this exercise in which everybody participated,

4 Muslims, Serbs. The army at that time was an army common for everybody.

5 So I saw him accidentally there, and prior to that, I didn't even know

6 that he had a reserve rank. In fact, many people had some kind of ranks.

7 Q. Where did you see him?

8 A. Well, this exercise took place in Zelengora, while I saw him in

9 Vrbnica in a restaurant belonging to the Maglic company. I came there

10 officially because I brought there a team who was immunising children. So

11 we stopped by to have coffee there and a lot of troops were there in that

12 restaurant as well, so I just happened to see him there.

13 Q. What kind of uniform did he wear at that time?

14 A. Well -- excuse me. JNA troops had a grey-olive uniform, olive.

15 The soldiers had that kind of uniform. And I didn't really know; I've

16 never seen those camouflage uniforms that they started wearing later.

17 Q. And when you saw Mr. Krnojelac in uniform, did you see any rank

18 insignias on the uniform?

19 A. Three stars. I think that that indicates a rank of a captain. It

20 was a long time ago and I don't know if they changed ranks and insignias

21 later on. I know that lieutenant normally had one star - no,

22 junior - sergeant would have one star, then lieutenant would have two

23 stars, a captain would have three stars, and so on.

24 Q. Do you recall which year it was when you saw him?

25 A. I don't remember, but probably some three to four years prior to

Page 2352

1 the war. Perhaps more than that. I can't really remember.

2 Q. Where did Mr. Krnojelac live?

3 A. Mr. Krnojelac lived -- I believe the street was called Mileve

4 Saric. I'm not sure. But I know that the neighbourhood is called Donje

5 Polje. I'm quite certain of that. I knew where his house was and knew

6 everything.

7 Q. Was there a restaurant in the house, a restaurant or a cafe?

8 A. Yes. They had some kind of a coffee bar there, a small one. I

9 didn't normally go there. I would normally go to a traditional Bosnian

10 coffee shop, and the younger people frequented those modern coffee bars.

11 Q. You said that you were arrested -- you stayed in Igalo till May

12 1992. Were you arrested there?

13 A. Yes, on May 25. I even kept that registration sheet showing that

14 I was properly registered with the authorities and received assistance.

15 And then simply on May 25th, in the morning, I went to get my coffee and

16 the police were asking all of the Bosniaks who were present to show their

17 IDs and all of them were taken to a police station in Herceg-Novi. Twenty

18 Serbs came with us from Foca and they were not locals. Some of them were

19 from Imotski, from other places, and they were mobilised. So 21 of us

20 were - forcibly mobilised - so 21 of us were loaded on the buses, and

21 there was an armed escort from Montenegro, and they took us to the KP Dom

22 in Foca.

23 Q. You mentioned 20 Serbs and you also spoke about 21 persons. When

24 you say "21 persons," whom do you mean? You and the Serbs or who?

25 A. I mean 21 Bosniaks, and there were 20 Serbs. So there was a total

Page 2353

1 of 41 of us, Bosniaks and Muslims together; 21 Bosniaks and 20 Serbs.

2 Q. What did the policemen who arrested you tell you? Why were you

3 arrested? What did they say?

4 A. They told us that we had to leave Montenegro, or rather, the

5 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, because at that time they had just passed

6 a common constitution. They told us they did not have diplomatic

7 relations with Bosnia-Herzegovina and they had to send us back. I

8 protested by saying, "Why are you sending us into the epicentre of war?"

9 However, they wouldn't listen and they loaded us on the buses and sent us

10 to prison. We were not allowed to talk really to anybody.

11 Q. Where were you taken in Herceg-Novi first, before you went to

12 Foca?

13 A. First they took us to the police station.

14 Q. Were the Muslims and the Serbs kept together in the police station

15 and later on on your transfer to Foca or were you kept separate?

16 A. [No interpretation]

17 Q. Is something wrong? You stopped talking.

18 A. [No interpretation]

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sir, wait. We did not get a translation.

20 JUDGE HUNT: We can't hear anything. I can see your mouth moving,

21 but I cannot hear you. It may be a technical problem.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear me now?

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

24 THE INTERPRETER: All right. Let's resume. Sorry.

25 JUDGE HUNT: We'll have to go back. The question was: "Were the

Page 2354

1 Muslims and the Serbs kept together in the police station and later on on

2 your transfer to Foca or were you kept separate?" Now, that's the

3 question we need another answer to.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

5 A. Separately. We were imprisoned while they were kept in a

6 restaurant. They, in fact, waited in a restaurant, and we were loaded on

7 the same bus and taken to Foca together.

8 Q. Who escorted you to the border of Montenegro?

9 A. There were two armed policemen on a bus, and in front of us there

10 was a police car riding with two more policemen in it.

11 Q. Were the policemen from Montenegro?

12 A. Yes, from Montenegro.

13 Q. Did they accompany you right to the KP Dom in Foca or did they

14 switch on the border?

15 A. They escorted us to Montenegro, however, not in their car; just a

16 bus with two policemen, armed policemen, on the bus went to Foca. Between

17 Scepan Polje and Foca, a police vehicle from Foca met us. It stopped the

18 bus and then it rode in front of the bus, taking the bus to KP Dom and

19 Foca.

20 Q. At what time did you arrive at the KP Dom?

21 A. Sometime around 9.00 or 9.30 in the evening.

22 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, who received you?

23 A. We were admitted and taken to the rooms by Koroman. I believe his

24 first name was Slavko. I'm not sure. However, his last name I know for a

25 certainty was Koroman.

Page 2355

1 Q. And who was he?

2 A. He worked in KP Dom prior to the war. I don't know if he was a

3 rehabilitation officer or a policeman. I'm really not sure. However, he

4 was a KP Dom employee prior to the war.

5 Q. What did he wear on that day?

6 A. He wore a uniform, a police uniform, a guard's uniform, a blue

7 guard's uniform.

8 Q. Was anyone else present, official, any other official?

9 A. No. No. I didn't see anyone else. There were a number of guards

10 standing around there. We were lined up against the wall of the KP Dom

11 with our arms stretched high, both us and Serbs. They searched us and

12 then admitted us into the compound of KP Dom, and nothing else took place.

13 Q. What happened to the Serbs on the bus? Were they put into the KP

14 Dom together with you?

15 A. Yes, only in separate parts. We were taken to the separate parts

16 of the building. They were staying in another part.

17 Q. When you entered the KP Dom, were you registered? Were your

18 particulars taken down?

19 A. No, because the police gave them a list that they had brought from

20 Herceg-Novi, so they didn't really list us again.

21 Q. How long did you stay in the KP Dom?

22 A. I stayed for about four months. I came on May 25th of 1992 and I

23 left from there on the 18th of September of 1992.

24 Q. In which room -- to which room were you taken, you and the other

25 Muslims?

Page 2356

1 A. We were taken to Room 20, number 20.

2 Q. Where was Room 20 within the prison?

3 A. It was in a part of the building that was -- which had Rooms 16,

4 18, 20, and 22; and across, in the other part of the building, is the

5 place where the Serbs were staying.

6 Q. From your Room 20, on which floor was it?

7 A. Ground floor -- there was a ground floor, a first floor, and in

8 fact this was on the second floor.

9 Q. From your Room 20, could you see the Drina River in front of the

10 KP Dom, in particular, the bridge?

11 A. No. No. We could only see -- when it was quiet at night, we

12 could hear the Drina River running; however, we couldn't see anything,

13 because the administrative building was higher, so it prevented us from

14 seeing anything.

15 Q. Do you know if the detainees above you could see this part of the

16 river?

17 A. I don't know that. They were one floor above us. Now, whether

18 they could see, I don't know. Perhaps they could see a part of the

19 bridge, but I doubt that they could see the entire bridge. They could

20 probably see the other bank of the river. You know, the bridge is quite

21 close to the KP Dom.

22 Q. Could you communicate with the detainees above and below you?

23 A. Well, secretly through notes. If we had some kind of information,

24 if somebody learned of something, then we would lower a note on a rope,

25 and this is how we communicated. We were not allowed to have any radios,

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1 and if somebody was found to have a radio, they would instantly be put in

2 the isolation cell. Nobody in my room had a radio, and the only

3 information that we got was in the way that I had just described to you.

4 Q. You said it was done in a secret way. Was it ever observed by

5 guards or prison staff, and did something follow?

6 A. I really don't know that something like that happened. I'm not

7 sure whether they caught anybody doing this. Definitely nobody from my

8 room, and I don't know about other rooms, because we mostly communicated

9 amongst ourselves when we went to lunch. So I knew what was taking place

10 in my room, and as for what was happening elsewhere, we could only learn

11 that from those notes that I described.

12 Q. Did you always stay in Room 20 during your confinement in the KP

13 Dom, or were you transferred to other rooms?

14 A. I was not there the entire time. I stayed in Room 11 for a

15 while. It's a room in another part of the building, on the ground floor.

16 We didn't stay there for a long time either. We were returned to Room 20

17 once again. Those of us who had been transferred to 11 were returned back

18 again.

19 Q. Do you recall when you stayed in Room 11, what month or even what

20 days it were?

21 A. Well, it was early July, I believe, when they transferred us. In

22 Room 11, most people were taken from that room in the evenings and this is

23 probably why we were brought to that room. Most of the things that

24 created anxiety among us were taking place in July. The exchanges were

25 started in July, and that month we were returned back to Room 20.

Page 2359

1 Q. How many days -- do you recall how many days you were in Room 11,

2 approximately?

3 A. I truly don't remember. Perhaps some 20 days, maybe even less.

4 Not for a long time.

5 Q. In Room 20, how many detainees were there with you?

6 A. Well, the number was never the same. Sometimes it was greater,

7 sometimes it was lower. People were transferred, sent to the working

8 unit, to the other room, new people were brought in. But on average,

9 there was normally 50 people there, sometimes even more.

10 Q. What ethnicity did these people have? Were you all Muslims or

11 were others among you?

12 A. Mostly Muslims were with me. There was just one Albanian there.

13 He lived in a village near Foca. But there were no other ethnicities in

14 the room with me.

15 Q. What was the name of this Albanian, do you know that?

16 A. His name was Halim Seljanci. I knew him prior to the war.

17 Q. When did he arrive in the prison?

18 A. He came sometime in the beginning of June. I came on May 25th and

19 they, the three of them, were brought in some seven to eight days later.

20 This Albanian, Aziz Haskovic and Latif Hasanbegovic, a short man, they

21 were terribly beaten up when they were brought in. They told us that they

22 were beaten with cables and that they were forced to eat a kilogram of

23 salt while they were still in Foca.

24 Q. Were they beaten up before they came to the prison?

25 A. Before they came, and then -- and it was from them that I learned

Page 2360

1 that there was a room there called Smederevo. There they spent two more

2 days and then they were brought to our room. And they also beat them in

3 that isolation cell, I don't know, in that room.

4 Q. You said room "Smederevo." Was that a room in the KP Dom?

5 A. Yes, on the ground floor of the administrative building.

6 Q. Do you know in which wing of the administrative building? When

7 you, for instance, looked out of the window, was it in the right wing or

8 in the left wing?

9 A. As you enter the KP Dom, to the right, in the right wing.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

11 show the witness the floor plan, Exhibit 6/1A.

12 Q. Sir, if you would look on the floor plan and point out to us, if

13 you can, this room you called Smederevo?

14 A. I don't know which room that is exactly, but according to what

15 they said, it was to the right. It should be somewhere here,

16 approximately somewhere here in this part.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, the witness is pointing out

18 the rooms -- Room 1 and Room 2 and also the office, in the right side,

19 seen from the entrance.

20 Q. Witness -- yes, thank you. Witness, what did the three men tell

21 you, what did happen to them in this room Smederevo?

22 A. They were brought there and they said there were different guards

23 there who beat them with different objects, and I learned from them that

24 it was Burilo and Zoran Matovic who beat them. Burilo had something like,

25 I don't know, that baseball thing, what you call it, bat, that was roughly

Page 2361

1 as they described it to us. And we saw him in the compound on various

2 occasions carrying it. They said they beat them horribly on their soles

3 of their feet and all over, very badly, especially this Albanian. He was

4 all black and blue on his back and all over.

5 Q. This Albanian, you said he was all blue and black. Did you see

6 his injuries when he was later in your room?

7 A. Of course, I did. In the restaurant, we pilfered, if I may use

8 the word -- I mean, if the food was completely unsalted and we would find

9 salt, they would take the salt from another table in the restaurant and

10 put it on a wet sheet and they would wrap him in the sheet, and those were

11 terrible pains because he had open wounds, and with the salt which ate

12 into them he was in terrible pain. For several days, he could not move.

13 We brought food to him.

14 Q. Who did that wrapping him in salt? Who did that?

15 A. With salt, we -- no, we did. All who were there, including me. I

16 don't know, somebody had brought this salt. I don't know who. But we had

17 taken a sheet and moistened it, and we tried to wrap him in this sheet so

18 as to use a cold compress, a wet compress, in order to help him somehow.

19 Of course, it hurt terribly but we were told it would help. We could not

20 do it again because the salt disappeared then from the restaurant.

21 Q. Did he have open wounds?

22 A. Well, he had those bruises, those, you know, haematoma which are

23 under the skin. Haematoma is the medical turn for that.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the person Halim Seljanci is

25 B-51.

Page 2362

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

3 Q. Witness, you also mentioned Latif Hasanbegovic. That's, by the

4 way, B-25. Did you see any injuries on him?

5 A. Less, and Aziz less, Aziz slightly less, and Latif was -- well, he

6 was less, he was less than 40 kilograms.

7 Q. But did you see injuries and bruises on Latif Hasanbegovic?

8 A. Yes, but less, less.

9 Q. And Aziz Haskovic, that's B-26. What did you see on him? Did you

10 see bruises on him as well?

11 A. Yes, but again less than the one I just described to you.

12 Q. Do you know how much time passed by until these three men had

13 recovered, especially Halim Seljanci?

14 A. They recovered quicker than he did. He suffered for several days,

15 for quite a long time. He had difficulty moving about.

16 Q. You have already mentioned Burilo and pointed out that you used to

17 see him with a baseball bat. What about this Zoran Matovic? Who was he?

18 A. Another guard. He was dangerous. If he saw somebody on the

19 window, he would take out the man, beat him right in front of the room, if

20 it was somebody watching and he recognised him, watching through the

21 window. He carried around a piece of a cable, about half a metre long,

22 and that is what he used to beat people with, rather than the baton.

23 Q. Did you know Matovic before the war?

24 A. No, no. I knew them by sight more. I didn't have any particular

25 contact with them.

Page 2363

1 Q. What did he look like? Can you describe him?

2 A. He was quite thin, and a beard but not much of a beard, medium

3 height.

4 Q. And what colour hair did he have?

5 A. Not quite black but brown.

6 Q. And Mr. Burilo, can you describe him?

7 A. I knew him from before the war, a little better. He always looked

8 like an ill-mannered thug. What can I tell you? A large man, a big man.

9 He had reddish hair.

10 Q. And I forgot to ask you. Latif Hasanbegovic, who was he? You

11 said he was a rather thin person, small person. Did you know him from

12 before? And what did he do before the war?

13 A. Yes. He lived in a village on the way to Tjentiste. He was a

14 farmer. I knew him because I was near him across the Drina, so that we

15 met at times. And an acquaintance of mine was his wife, and that is how I

16 knew him.

17 Q. And Aziz Haskovic, from where was he?

18 A. From the same village, same village. And the one that I told you

19 about that I described to you about that we wrapped in this sheet, they

20 all came from the same village.

21 Q. What became out of the three? Were they still there when you left

22 the KP Dom?

23 A. They stayed there. What happened to them, I have no idea. I

24 don't know. What went on in the KP Dom, afterwards, after the 18th of

25 September, I don't know what there was, until the 18th of September, what

Page 2364

1 I remember, well, that's it.

2 Q. And you said that they were abused in the room Smederevo. Did

3 they describe this room to you? Did they tell you anything about what it

4 looked like?

5 A. They said there were some chains in the wall and they would tie

6 their hands to those chains so that one couldn't even fall down, even if

7 they -- even if he lost consciousness from beatings, one could not fall

8 because he was tied to those -- he would be tied to those chains in the

9 wall. But I did not see that. That is what I learned from their

10 stories.

11 Q. In the Room 20, these fifty people, can you tell us their age, the

12 youngest -- who was the youngest and who the oldest?

13 A. Like this: The youngest was about 17, a boy, and the oldest was

14 71 or 72.

15 Q. And were you all civilians or was a soldier -- a Bosniak soldier

16 among you?

17 A. When I was there, until the 18th of September, I am sure that not

18 a single combatant soldier was there. They were all civilians. They had

19 all been brought from their homes; from Montenegro, from Serbia.

20 Q. These three men that you just mentioned that were so injured when

21 they came to the room, do you know where they were arrested, what they

22 were doing?

23 A. Those three, they were brought from their homes. They were

24 brought from their homes. Nothing. They were just taken there and

25 brought.

Page 2365

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Page 2366

1 Q. Were sick people among you in the Room 20?

2 A. Yes. They brought one from the hospital. His last name was

3 Glusac. I don't know what his first name was. And he suffered from

4 severe TBC, tuberculosis, and he was very, very thin, thinner than I am.

5 And there were others too. I don't know what happened to them.

6 Q. Did Mr. Glusac get treatment for his tuberculosis while in your

7 room?

8 A. Yes. No. No. No.

9 Q. Among those in Room 20, was there anyone with an ulcer?

10 A. There was one who had arrived with me, and one night, it could

11 have been five or six days after we arrived, and he had an ulcer. So the

12 ulcer presumably became active, began to bleed horribly in the evening.

13 And from what I -- from what little I knew about medicine was that ice

14 should be put on the stomach. Now, naturally, I didn't have any, so I put

15 a bottle with cold water on his stomach. I banged on the door. Milic was

16 the guard who was on duty then. And I said, "Well, come on. The man is

17 dying. Do something." And he said, "Stop banging on the door, because if

18 I come in, you'll die too." And of course I did not dare, nor anybody

19 else, did dare call for help. And the next morning it was too late. We

20 carried him in a blanket to the clinic. They tried to give him an

21 infusion, but it failed. They took him to hospital. And after some time

22 they looked for a blood donor for him, for that patient, and I was one of

23 those. There were 13 of us who donated blood. But unfortunately the man

24 died.

25 Q. And how do you know that the man died?

Page 2367

1 A. His uncle was in the same room with me and he took over his

2 belongings, and he was the one they told that he had died.

3 Q. Who told the uncle?

4 A. I don't know. Somebody from the management. How can I know who

5 did? Somebody did. But he knew it, and he took over his leather jacket

6 and other belongings, and that is how we learnt.

7 Q. You said there were 13 blood donators, among them you yourself.

8 Where did you go to donate blood?

9 A. To this clinic which was in the same wing of the building as Room

10 11 except that it was on a higher floor. That is where we donated blood.

11 They gave us regularly those parcels that blood donors get - I don't

12 know - a packet of cigarettes and some bread, I think.

13 Q. Do you recall any other detainee who donated blood together with

14 you?

15 A. Yes. I remember one, and he is also missing and I never found out

16 if he survived. He was supposedly taken for exchange, but he never called

17 anyone, nor did he turn up anywhere.

18 Q. And what was the name?

19 A. Lojo, Becir.

20 Q. And do you recall anyone else who donated blood?

21 A. Safet Abdic, and I can't really remember the details, but there

22 were 13 of us.

23 Q. And Mr. Safet Abdic, who was he? Did you know him from before?

24 A. Yes. He ran a unit in the Maglic company and the timber

25 industry. He was the manager of a unit, of a plant, whether the forestry

Page 2368

1 department or something. I don't know.

2 Q. Was he in your room, in Room 20, together with you?

3 A. No. No.

4 Q. Do you know in which wing of the building he was, or even in which

5 room?

6 A. I can't remember it, believe me. I don't really to speak through

7 my head [as interpreted], so I can't really know. Perhaps he was in Room

8 22 or above me, but I'm not really sure. I knew him. And you see, those

9 times were such that even if you asked me what my name was, perhaps I

10 wouldn't be able to tell you. That's what those times were like.

11 Q. Do you know if he was in the same wing, in the same building of

12 the prisoners' quarters as you?

13 A. Well, he was -- if he was above me, then it's the same wing. If

14 he was in the same wing as the clinic was, then it's a different wing.

15 But it's all the building - I mean - how shall I put it? It's a building

16 shaped like an "F," letter "F."

17 Q. Yes, we know what the building looks like. I was only wondering

18 if you could see where he was -- in which building he was, but you said

19 no.

20 A. I don't remember. I really don't.

21 Q. You mentioned the Serbs that came actually with you from

22 Montenegro. How long did they stay in the KP Dom, and where?

23 A. They were across my room, that is, we used the same entrance. But

24 their number dwindled in a very short time. Whether they were released or

25 mobilised, I don't know. One of them stayed quite long and he distributed

Page 2369

1 food to us, and I would say hello to him every day because we sat next to

2 each other - that's how it happened. His name was Kadijevic - on the bus,

3 and they would not allow us to smoke and he protested. He was slightly

4 under the influence. I offered him a cigarette and we smoked on the bus.

5 And he spent there two or three months and then he left too. Whether he

6 was released or what, I don't know. His hair was all white. Could have

7 been of my age.

8 Q. Yes. And were there any other Serb prisoners there except for

9 these who came with you from Montenegro? Do you know?

10 A. They would come but stay only for a short time, brought there

11 perhaps because they had some problems with their authorities or

12 something. They would be there for a couple of days and leave. But they

13 could not have any contact with us. They were kept completely separate

14 from us. And we could see them only through the window, looking through

15 it surreptitiously, because we were not allowed to come near the windows.

16 We would be punished. But, you know, curiosity makes you -- drives you to

17 the window to see.

18 Q. If you compare the conditions of the Serb detainees and

19 those -- the conditions that the Muslim detainees had, what would you

20 say? Can you compare it in relation to food and other matters?

21 A. I do not think they had the same food as we did, because they also

22 worked in the kitchen and helped peel potatoes and so on and so forth.

23 And they could play games. There was a small basketball platform or they

24 could play football. And we were kept under the -- locked all the time,

25 and it simply can't be that they were given the same food as we were.

Page 2370

1 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, is there really any challenge to

2 this evidence about the different food been given to the Muslim and the

3 Serb people in the KP Dom? I have not understood there to be any

4 challenge to this.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: My understanding from the Defence position is

6 that they say food was so scarce because there was no food, and that is

7 why we point this out always.

8 JUDGE HUNT: But that's a different issue. If there was no food

9 within the community, then everybody would suffer. That may or may not be

10 the case. But this is a different issue. This is that whatever amount of

11 food was available, the Serbs got a great deal more per person than the

12 Muslims did. Now, that has not, so far as I know, been challenged in

13 cross-examination at all during this trial.

14 Is it challenged, Mr. Bakrac?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do think that we

16 challenged it, because my colleague Vasic cross-examined one of the

17 earlier witnesses in this regard, because the Defence has information that

18 food was scarce and that practically -- and one witness also said that

19 everybody ate the same kind of food; that all those who were in the KP

20 Dom, they all had the same food, everybody there, regardless of whether

21 they were Muslims, Serbs or whoever.

22 JUDGE HUNT: If there has been such cross-examination, it

23 certainly did not impress itself upon me as raising the issue that I have

24 raised, that despite the shortage of food generally within the KP Dom, the

25 Serbs were given more food than the Muslims. Now, if there is such

Page 2371

1 cross-examination to raise that, I'd be very interested to know the

2 reference to it, and perhaps you can give it to me in the morning, because

3 to me there is no issue about this; no issue has been taken at all. So if

4 you want to disabuse me of that impression, perhaps tomorrow morning you

5 can give me the references in the transcript.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will have a look. I

7 believe it was a witness who said that food was thrown away, and I believe

8 my colleague Vasic cross-examined the witness. But I will look it up,

9 yes, and I will tell you in the morning.

10 JUDGE HUNT: I would be very grateful if you would do that.

11 Well, you had better proceed until we've got that.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HUNT: But I will be very surprised if my impression is

14 proved to be wrong.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

16 Q. Did you yourself suffer any results from the lack of food, I mean

17 physical results?

18 A. Well, my health did not suffer, but I lost a lot of weight. I was

19 quite well filled up when I arrived, and I lost 30 kilograms in four

20 months. Just to show you how poor the food was, I have to tell you that

21 sometimes 15, 20, or more men would not need to go and relieve themselves

22 because they simply had nothing to relieve themselves of.

23 Q. Witness, we do not need to go into the details. Other detainees

24 have told us about it. But how did the --

25 A. Thank you.

Page 2372

1 Q. How did the conditions, living conditions, affect you mentally?

2 A. Mentally I shall never get rid of the trauma, I suppose as long as

3 I live, because I keep having nightmares. My blood pressure is very

4 high. It was always low before. Now I have to treat it. And, well ...

5 Q. Were you interrogated while you were in the prison?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When was that?

8 A. It was in July, I think. Maybe it was June. No, June. I'm not

9 sure. It could have been sometime around mid-June, because of all the

10 group that was brought there, only two or three of us were interrogated,

11 as far as I could find out. So yes, I was taken in for interrogation.

12 Q. And what time of the day was that?

13 A. It could have been around 10.00, half past. I can't remember

14 exactly. But it was in the morning. It was before noon, before lunch, I

15 mean.

16 Q. Where were you interrogated? In which part of the KP Dom?

17 A. As you go through that notorious iron gate, you go to the right.

18 There's a staircase there and it takes you to the first floor. I believe

19 it was the first floor, one of the offices there. I don't know. Perhaps

20 if I saw it I might recognise it, but just an office, a regular office.

21 Q. And who interrogated you? Did you know these persons?

22 A. Yes. I was interrogated by Zoran Vladicic and Vojo Starovic. The

23 two of them interrogated me.

24 Q. Who was Zoran Vladicic? Did you know him from before and what he

25 did?

Page 2373

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Page 2374

1 A. Yes. He used to work for the police. He was an inspector, I

2 think, criminal investigation department, an inspector there, I think. I

3 can't give you the definition, but I knew him personally.

4 Q. And Vojo Starovic, who was he?

5 A. As far as I know, he was a lawyer, but he also worked for the

6 police, for the Ministry of the Interior.

7 Q. And did they wear uniforms when they interrogated you?

8 A. No.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 11.00.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We'll adjourn now until 11.30.

11 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

13 JUDGE HUNT: The list has now arrived, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, but it

14 was filed too late for it to be sent up to chambers on Friday. I'm afraid

15 you will just have to take into account the problems that the Registry

16 have in getting these things out around the building. It would be helpful

17 if we could have it just a bit earlier on Friday so it can be delivered on

18 Friday. Anyway, you now -- you're still examining FWS-109.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Witness, just from the previous discussion, you mentioned the

21 death of the person with an ulcer, and you also told us already that this

22 person was brought to the KP Dom together with you, but I forgot to ask

23 you do you know the name of this person?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What is the name?

Page 2375

1 A. Eso Hadzic.

2 Q. Thank you. Before the break, you told us that you were

3 interrogated. Were you accused of anything in particular?

4 A. There were questions relating to whether I had something hidden,

5 whether I had weapons, whether I was a member of the SDA, and of that

6 nature.

7 Q. Were you abused during the interrogation?

8 A. No, no.

9 Q. Were you threat --

10 A. The only thing was that they threatened me, they would turn me

11 over to the military police if I didn't reply to the questions, but I told

12 them. What I just told you was pure truth. They did not abuse me at all.

13 Q. Did they tell you what the military police would do to you?

14 A. They said, "If you won't answer to us, you will have to answer to

15 them." And then I said, and I quote, "You can force me to tell something

16 that's not true, but what I am telling is the truth. You can accuse me of

17 throwing an atomic bomb on Hiroshima or something that happened five or

18 six years ago that was not truth." And this is where it ended. They did

19 not mistreat me. They did not put any further questions to me.

20 Q. What happened when the interrogation was over?

21 A. I was taken back to my room. They gave me a note which I was to

22 give to the guard to take me back to the room, and nothing else.

23 Q. Were you immediately taken back to the room, or did you have to

24 wait for a while?

25 A. I waited a bit while they discussed something amongst themselves,

Page 2376

1 and during that time I was in the hallway. And after me, they took

2 another young man, I don't remember his first name but his last name was

3 Music. He cried. I heard it. They screamed, they yelled at him. And

4 they probably were not pleased with the answers he gave them because he

5 was sent to the isolation cell. I was called to come in once again, and I

6 was given a document, a paper, to sign, and they said, "Just read. We

7 wrote down what we had discussed with you." And I signed it without

8 reading that document. I have no idea what was written in it.

9 Q. Why did you not read it?

10 A. I didn't have my glasses. I couldn't see. And I said to Zoran,

11 since I knew him from before, "Well, whatever you wrote in this, you are

12 responsible for it."

13 Q. You said that this young man Music, you heard him crying. Could

14 you hear what --

15 A. Crying, yes. He was crying.

16 Q. And could you hear what he was asked? You said there was

17 shouting. Could you hear anything?

18 A. They asked him about a rifle and he admitted having one. Now,

19 whether he really had one or not, I really don't know. But the questions

20 related mostly to weapons.

21 Q. Did you later see this young man in your room or in any other of

22 the rooms?

23 A. No. He was not in my room. I saw him a few times during lunch.

24 I didn't know him. This is when I came to know him, and I heard that his

25 last name was Music, that they were telling him, "Come on, Music. Come on

Page 2377

1 in." I don't know anything else about him.

2 Q. Were you beaten while you were in the KP Dom?

3 A. No. Nobody beat me.

4 Q. Did you see other detainees being beaten?

5 A. I heard more than I saw. I would hear them scream and moan. I

6 would hear the hits, on numerous occasions. In June it would take place

7 every evening. After they checked on whether we were in our rooms, then

8 they would take out a group of four to six or eight people away. Those

9 people never collected their belongings prior to leaving and they never

10 came back. And this is something that created most of the anxiety,

11 because it would normally take place in the evening after they counted the

12 people in their rooms.

13 Q. At what time of the day were the detainees called out?

14 A. Mostly in the evenings, after dark.

15 Q. And who called them out?

16 A. One of the guards would come in and simply call out names and say,

17 "You, you, you, come out." He would take them out and then after that we

18 would hear screams, beating, yelling, and that would really make us

19 nervous. If that lasted longer, maybe a number of detainees would go

20 crazy or commit suicide. This is something that affected me the most,

21 these human screams. And after that their tactics changed, and instead of

22 taking out people in the evening, the alleged exchanges started. So they

23 would call out people and tell them to collect their belongings. And we

24 were happy to hear that these exchanges had started; however, it turned

25 out later that many of these people that were taken for exchanges never

Page 2378

1 came back, including many of those that I knew.

2 Q. You have mentioned that this procedure, this calling out of

3 detainees, happened after it was checked in the rooms who was in the

4 rooms. This checking, was it done daily, this checking on who was in

5 which room?

6 A. Every evening they would come in. And one of the inmates was

7 appointed to be a person in charge of the room, and when a guard would

8 come, that person would have stated how many people were in the room.

9 They were counting us. And they would write it down. And in addition to

10 this counting up, the thing that affected us most is that after that they

11 would come in and take out -- take people away.

12 Q. You said that the number of detainees in a room were written

13 down. Where was it written into or onto?

14 A. Some kind of a paper. This inmate who was in charge for the room,

15 he would write it on a paper and give it to the guard, and then the guard

16 would verify this, write it down again, and lock us up and leave. And

17 after that, they would frequently come and take people away.

18 Q. And you said that you could hear cries. Did it come from the

19 section that you have already shown us on the ELMO or did it come from

20 other parts of the --

21 A. Yes. No. No. It would be from the same room, mostly from the

22 same part of the building. Everything was taking place behind that door.

23 Q. Could you ever hear who was being beaten? From the sounds that

24 you heard, could you ever find out who was being beaten at that time?

25 A. They mostly beat all of those that they took out. They would take

Page 2379

1 them in one by one, and after that we would hear the screams. And

2 sometimes things would quiet down, and we attributed it to the fact that

3 those people had lost their voices, couldn't scream anymore. And then

4 after a while we would hear beating again and then we would hear things

5 like, "Well, tell us, where is your rifle?" and things like that.

6 Q. Did you ever hear shots in relation to these beatings?

7 A. Well, this is what gave me the reason to fear the worst. Those of

8 us who were soldiers know what shots are, because there were shots in the

9 room and shots in the outside. And at that time we heard six shots in the

10 room, indoors. And then the fact that some people were taken away and

11 never returned, we would simply fear the worst as far as those people were

12 concerned.

13 Q. Did you hear these six shots -- was it one incident with six shots

14 or did you hear that frequently?

15 A. Those that were indoors, those shots indoors, I never heard them

16 again, ever again, and I didn't hear them prior to that. Now, as far as

17 what was happening outdoors, well, there was a lot of shooting going on

18 outdoors and also within the compound. But those shots that I heard

19 indoors, I heard that only once.

20 Q. Do you know which detainees had been taken out on that day when

21 you heard the six shots?

22 A. Munib Veiz, Nurko Nisic were taken out on that occasion, those

23 two, and four people with them. But those people are the ones that I

24 remember the most, and if you wish, perhaps I could state the name of

25 others as well.

Page 2380

1 Q. Let's first talk about this incident with the six shots. You said

2 Nurko Nisic was taken out on this occasion and Munib Veiz.

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Nurko Nisic is C-19 and incident 5.27 and

5 Munib Veiz that's C-28 and B-59.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

8 Q. These two, were they taken out only on this occasion, or did you

9 also see them being taken out several times and return?

10 A. I didn't see that. I didn't see them being taken out on several

11 occasions.

12 Q. And what did you see? Were they taken out together?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And where were they taken?

15 A. They took them towards the iron gate, and they were lined up

16 behind each other, and they would take them in one by one. And as soon as

17 one would come in, we would hear screams and moans. The last person in

18 that group to come in was Nurko Nisic.

19 Q. And Munib Veiz, who was he? Did you know him from before?

20 A. Yes. He was a salesman. He worked in a store. He was a large

21 man and weighed about 130 kilograms prior to the war. He was quite big.

22 Q. And Nurko Nisic, who was he?

23 A. I also knew Nurko Nisic. He worked for a while in the police, and

24 I don't know where he worked after that. I really don't know.

25 Q. You said that he was taken in last, as the last one of these six.

Page 2381

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Page 2382

1 Did you hear anything --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you hear anything in particular after he was taken in?

4 A. Well, right after the beatings, we heard the shots fired indoors.

5 Q. You gave -- do you recall that you gave a statement to the

6 investigators of the Prosecutors' Office in June of 1996?

7 A. I remember giving a statement. I don't know which part you're

8 interested in.

9 Q. You referred in this statement, you also mentioned this incident

10 with the six shots, and besides Munib Veiz and Nurko Nisic, you mentioned

11 four other persons. And you said --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you said Hamid Salem Bico was among those six people. What

14 can you tell us about him? Do you recall that he was taken out on this

15 particular day?

16 A. Yes. His name is Hamid Bico and Salem is his nickname. His real

17 name is Hamid so it is one person, not two people.

18 Q. Yes. And what did you see happen to him?

19 A. Well, I believe that he had the same fate as the others. They

20 never came back.

21 Q. Do you recall that he was taken on this occasion when you heard

22 the six shots?

23 A. As far as I remember, yes, he was taken away then. Because I knew

24 a lot of those that were taken out in the evening. I knew some from just

25 by sight and some of them I knew personally, but I remember those that

Page 2383

1 were taken out and I especially well remember those six being taken out

2 because it really affected us the most, all of us, because we really

3 feared the worst for them.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And Your Honour, Bico Hamid is C-2 and B-5.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

7 Q. Witness, in this statement to the Prosecutor, you also mentioned

8 that a certain Halim Konjo was among the six on that day. Do you recall

9 that?

10 A. Yes, I remember that.

11 Q. Who was he?

12 A. He had a restaurant, a cafe.

13 Q. And you also mentioned in this previous statement that among those

14 six victims were the two Rikalo brothers. Do you recall them?

15 A. Yes. I remember them. However, I knew them by sight but I don't

16 remember their first names. I really don't. I know that they were

17 brothers and last name was Rikalo.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, these Rikalo brothers are

19 listed under C-21 to 23 and B-45 to 48.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

22 Q. Do you recall who took them out, these particular six persons?

23 A. No. In the dark, I probably couldn't tell who it was. It was

24 already night. The lights were down there but we didn't have lights. We

25 were not allowed to have any after the dinner and after we had gone into

Page 2384

1 our rooms, so I couldn't recognise who came in to take them. One of the

2 guards would normally come in and take them. Now, who was on duty on that

3 occasion, I don't know.

4 Q. How long did this beating of the six people last, approximately?

5 A. I think at least half an hour. We could hear beating and noise

6 for at least that long, screams as well.

7 Q. And when the sounds ceased, how much time was between the stopping

8 of the shouting and the shots? Do you recall that?

9 A. We heard a car. We could recognise the typical noise associated

10 with that car because it didn't have an exhaust pipe so it was quite

11 noisy. And then after that sound became distant, we could tell that the

12 car was driving towards the town. Now, what in fact happened, we don't

13 know. Those who were in the working unit, they were not yet staying

14 together all in one room. There were people from different rooms there.

15 So a man who had a bed next to me, he was a mechanic, so he went out to

16 work and when he came back, he said that he was very concerned because he

17 had found a car recently -- this car without an exhaust pipe, he found it

18 just recently cleaned, washed, so we concluded that when we heard the

19 shots, they were in fact eliminated at that time. We didn't hear it

20 officially but something must have happened to them since these people

21 never came back again.

22 Q. After the beating on that evening had stopped and you heard the

23 shots, did you see anyone in the yard?

24 A. Two cooks walked -- we saw them walking in that direction. Now,

25 whether they asked them to come in and help, we really don't know. We

Page 2385

1 could -- we were able to come in and take a better look because it was

2 dark so we were not afraid of being seen. However, we were so affected by

3 this and so scared, my heart was beating very loudly. You know how it is

4 when you're afraid of something.

5 Q. Where did you see the cooks, and who were they? Do you know their

6 names?

7 A. I don't know their names. I just know that they worked in the

8 kitchen, and I have no idea what their names were.

9 Q. And where did you see them on that evening?

10 A. They walked from the restaurant towards this gate, so from the

11 restaurant towards the gate.

12 Q. Do you recall any other detainee being taken in the same manner?

13 Do you recall any particular detainee that you could name?

14 A. You mean those who were taken out in the evening, that evening, or

15 another evening?

16 Q. Other evenings. On other evenings. Do you recall any other

17 detainee that was taken away in the same fashion on an evening and you

18 heard beatings afterwards or the sound of beating? Do you recall anyone

19 else?

20 A. Beatings, yes, but I didn't hear shots. I remember there was

21 Kruno there, a Croat; Mato Ivancic, a Croat as well. There was Atko

22 Granov. I don't know his real first name. There was Esad Kiselica

23 there. I can't remember others, but there were others. If I could

24 perhaps look at the list that I have, that would perhaps help me

25 recollect.

Page 2386

1 Q. What kind of list do you have? Do you have a list with you?

2 A. My own. I have it with me. After the exchange, I simply noted it

3 down for myself so as not to forget, and I can't remember --

4 Q. Witness, wait. Witness, wait. Please wait. Before you look into

5 the list, can you tell us what kind of a list it is?

6 A. It's not a list; it's a note that I made, a personal note, lest I

7 forgot people, because there were some whom I just meant and ... let me

8 repeat: Esad Kiselica, Atko, Mato, Kruno.

9 Q. Witness, wait. Please wait. And wait for my questions. Witness,

10 when did you make the notes?

11 A. As soon as I was exchanged. It could have been within a month. I

12 sat down, I concentrated and took it down, because I knew I would need

13 that information.

14 Q. Did you give these notes to the investigator of the Prosecutor's

15 office, or rather copies of your notes?

16 A. Yes, I did. I don't know if I did it at the first interview. I

17 suppose yes; I suppose it was the first interview when I turned it over.

18 Yes. There was also Nail Hodzic, one on the list.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. Wait a second.

20 Your Honour, this document the witness is referring to is actually

21 in the trial binders and it's document ID 201, and it should be in front

22 of the Defence counsel as well. It's actually two lists of names. And if

23 there is no objection from the Defence, I wonder if the witness could use

24 it for his recollection.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Just wait till Defence counsel have found the

Page 2387

1 document. We have ID 201.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we found the document,

3 but we should like to compare it with the document that the witness has.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Was it a photostat or a typed copy?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. It's handwritten notes, handwritten

6 notes of the witness, as you find them in this 201.

7 Q. Could you get it and show it to Defence counsel, with the help of

8 the usher.

9 A. This part here.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a photocopy of

11 a sheet of paper which was shown to us, the first and the second page, but

12 a different ballpoint was used for the third page and we did not get it.

13 And we see that the witness has yet another sheet of paper with him, but

14 then that's something else. So on the document which the witness has

15 shown us, the first and the second page were photocopied and we received

16 that. On the third page, where a different ballpoint was used, a darker

17 one, that list we do not have and we never saw it.

18 JUDGE HUNT: And it's not in the folders either.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, because we don't have it either.

20 Q. Witness, did you add to this document later on?

21 A. These are my personal notes. It was just -- I didn't give it to

22 anyone. It was just a draft. But the list -- and there is a list of

23 people who were brought from Montenegro, and you have both those lists.

24 You do not have this other one.

25 Q. And did you simply add later on to the list, to your personal

Page 2388

1 notes? Did you later add something that you didn't want to forget or ...

2 A. I don't know. Perhaps what the gentleman says, a different

3 ballpoint. And I may have just, you know, changed the refill. Perhaps it

4 was simply used up. I mean, no problem about that. What I gave you is

5 what you now have.

6 JUDGE HUNT: What I think we need to know, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, is

7 when did he do the third page with the different Biro?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

9 Q. Yes. When did you write the third page or the additional

10 information on the sheet? Do you recall?

11 A. Believe me, I don't, but I made those notes. You can see on the

12 list that there were people about whom I could never find out whether they

13 had come out of the camp or not. And I did it for myself so as to know,

14 so as not to talk through my head. But otherwise I simply do not have any

15 others. So, for instance, a name just crops up in my memory, but

16 then -- who are on this list, and a while ago I couldn't remember them.

17 JUDGE HUNT: I would still like to know whether it was within a

18 reasonable time of him being exchanged and was it before or after he spoke

19 to the OTP investigators. If it is right back at that time and if they

20 are notes which help him with his memory, then he should be entitled to

21 refresh his recollection, although a copy would have to be given to the

22 Defence.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

24 JUDGE HUNT: So that's why I want to know, just with some more

25 precision, not an exact date such as the 25th of May, 1992, that the

Page 2389

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Page 2390

1 document itself bears, but within what sort of period after that were

2 those notes on the third page added.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

4 Q. Can you answer this question: When did you make these additions?

5 A. I don't know. I don't know when. I simply can't remember. But

6 it must have been before the interviews, so I must have had it before the

7 interviews. Maybe I did not show it to you because we just talked and I

8 did not have any aids with me. But then what I said, I had to write down

9 to know it, because one tends to forget.

10 Q. Witness, did you make such additional notes -- it's only about the

11 additional notes. Did you make them recently or years ago?

12 A. No, no. It was years ago, a long time ago. Not recently. This

13 does not interest anyone. It has nothing to do with it. This is

14 something that I wrote recently. And that was written -- must have been

15 several years ago, that particular paper.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave --

18 perhaps I should not do this, but perhaps the Prosecutor should ask the

19 witness: And when did he turn over these notes to the OTP investigators

20 or OTP office?

21 JUDGE HUNT: Which notes do you mean, Mr. Bakrac? We've already

22 got evidence that the first two pages were handed to the OTP at either the

23 first or the second interview. He does not remember.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That is 1996.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

Page 2391

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence now sees

2 that even on the photocopies that were handed over, when we compare it

3 with the original, number 17 - that is, the list of inmates - 17 is

4 missing, whereas in the original we have added Kemo Dzelilovic.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Look, I suggest that perhaps during the luncheon

6 adjournment somebody makes a copy of the document that he has. There

7 should have been no alterations made without at least some notice being

8 given of that fact.

9 Now, why they have been made, I don't know and I don't think we

10 really need to know. I notice, for example, that the last line on each

11 page seems to have been lost on the photocopy. Whether that's a

12 significant line or not, I don't know, but you can just see the top of

13 some letters. It might be a good idea if we have clean copies of the

14 complete document. That's pages 1, 2, and 3. As I understand what the

15 witness has said, page 4 has absolutely nothing to do with this at all.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have only this version that

17 you have, and we have --

18 JUDGE HUNT: No, no.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We have no -- you mean the original?

20 JUDGE HUNT: Look, please -- yes, of the original. That is what I

21 was saying, the one Mr. Bakrac presently has. Perhaps we should get that

22 copied or maybe you can get it copied now. It might save some time.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, we can do that.

24 JUDGE HUNT: But page 4, as I understand it, has absolutely

25 nothing to do with the case.

Page 2392

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: However, we can proceed at least with the

2 names he has already given to us one by one.

3 Q. Witness, you have mentioned an Atko Granov.

4 A. I did, yes, Atko Granov.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Atko Granov, that's -- for the record, it's

6 C-9.

7 Q. What did you see happen to him?

8 A. He was also taken away with I don't know how many others. I do

9 not know. But these notes, I remember those men who were taken away but

10 who was taken with whom, I can't tell you specifically because I don't

11 know. But I know they were taken away one evening.

12 Q. And you also mentioned Esad Kiselica. That's C-12. What did you

13 see? Who was he, and what did you see?

14 A. He was an electrician before the war. He worked for the power

15 distribution company, authority, and he was taken with a group of -- I

16 don't know who else was in this group but Nail Hodzic and Kuloglija,

17 called Kula, I do not know his first name, and others. And that was why I

18 had made those notes. Because I knew last names of some and of others I

19 didn't, but perhaps I could ask about it from somebody else who knew

20 them. And I indicated whose first names I knew and whose last names I

21 knew.

22 Q. And Granov, Atko -- Atko, is that a nickname or is that the proper

23 name?

24 A. His name is different but everybody called him Atko. I don't know

25 what his real name is, whether Adnan or something but Atko was a short

Page 2393

1 version of it.

2 Q. And who was he?

3 A. He was -- I don't know what he was. I think he was a civil

4 servant, a clerk or something. I used to know his father, and him I only

5 knew by sight. I simply knew that he was so and so.

6 Q. And you mentioned Nail Hodzic. That's C-10. Who was he?

7 A. He was a driver. I believe he was already retired by that time.

8 Q. And you mentioned Kuloglija, who was -- that's C-15. Who was he?

9 Do you know his first name?

10 A. Kuloglija was a teacher, I think. No, I don't know his first

11 name. Kulog everybody called him. Kulog or Kula, that's what people

12 called him.

13 Q. And you mentioned a Kruno. Who was he? Do you know his last name

14 and who he was?

15 A. I don't know his last name, and I think the list says that I don't

16 know his last name. He was a TV repairman. I knew him by sight because I

17 walked past his shop every day, a Croat by origin.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that is C-17.

19 Q. And you also mentioned a Mate Ivancic. Who was he?

20 A. Yes. He was a medical technician. He was employed (redacted)

21 (redacted).

22 Q. And do you know which ethnicity he was?

23 A. Croat.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this is C-11.

25 Q. Do you know a person with the name Abdurahman Cankusic?

Page 2394

1 A. Oh, yes. Abdurahman Cankusic and his brother. I don't know what

2 his first name was but they were brothers, Cankusic brothers.

3 Q. And who were they?

4 A. I don't know. I knew them relatively well. They lived in a

5 borough in a part of Foca, but I don't really know what they did.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, Abdurahman is C-3 and the

7 brother should be C-4.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

10 Q. Do you know a Kemo Dzelilovic?

11 A. By sight only. I know that he was a teacher, a teacher in the

12 elementary or secondary school, I don't know.

13 Q. Did you see anything happen to him?

14 A. I don't know what happened to him. He was taken away one evening

15 and did not come back, and also Seval Soro. I've just remembered his

16 name.

17 Q. Who was he?

18 A. He was an electrician, worked for the power distribution

19 authority.

20 Q.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Soro Seval, Your Honour, is C-24 and Kemal

22 Dzelilovic is C-7.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

25 Q. Do you know a Zulfo Veiz?

Page 2395

1 A. Of course I do. I knew him well. And yes, well, he's one that I

2 forgot. And that is, that was my only -- that was the only reason to make

3 this document, just not to forget them, because one tends to forget names.

4 Q. But who was he?

5 A. He was a policeman.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Zulfo Veiz is mentioned under

7 C-29 and 5.27.

8 Q. Witness, all these men you just spoke -- you just spoke about,

9 it's actually 17 people, when they were taken out, did you always hear the

10 sounds of beatings?

11 A. Yes, every time. What I saw because I wouldn't have written it

12 down had I not -- all those people who were taken away, except Seval Soro,

13 who was only taken away by himself, and I did not hear any sounds. He was

14 alone when they took him away and he was the only one then but I don't

15 know the date because dates I just don't remember. But he was taken all

16 by himself that evening and I did not hear any sounds at all, but as for

17 the others, yes, one could always hear blows.

18 Q. And did you see any of these men again after you were released, or

19 did you hear of them?

20 A. Never. I saw parents of many of them or some other relatives and

21 I -- and they never turned up, those whose names I gave you from this

22 list.

23 Q. When you heard -- when you saw these men being taken and you heard

24 these sounds of beating and screaming, were you all the time in Room 20 or

25 somewhere else?

Page 2396

1 A. Room 20, I was always there when these things happened.

2 Q. And when -- you singled out a little bit Soro Seval. When he was

3 taken away, where were you, do you recall?

4 A. I was in 11, and he was taken from my room because the lights went

5 out that evening and we thought that they had taken him to repair it

6 because he was an electrician, but he never came back. And then after a

7 while, I was taken back to Room 20 because they completely vacated Room

8 11. Nobody stayed in it any more.

9 Q. Yes. Witness, were detainees being beaten during daytime? You

10 have described these beatings in the evenings. Did you see any detainee

11 or hear detainees being beaten during daytime?

12 A. No. One couldn't hear it in daytime. I never heard that, no, not

13 by day, no. I cannot say I did when I didn't.

14 Q. Did you see anyone in your room except for those three you have

15 already mentioned? Did you see anyone in your room, Room 20, with

16 injuries?

17 A. Once, (redacted), who had been to interrogation, I'm sorry.

18 Q. I would like --

19 A. A colleague of mine was injured because he had been slapped in the

20 face but he never wanted to complain, never wanted to say who was

21 responsible. Others, I did not. No, excuse me. Munir Sabanovic, he was

22 taken away and spent ten days in the isolation cell. He came from my

23 room, and he returned with injuries.

24 Q. And when was that, do you recall?

25 A. I was in Room 20 and I think it was, I think, June, July, perhaps

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1 August. I'm not sure.

2 Q. And what injuries did you see on him?

3 A. Mostly he was beaten with a baton and all sorts of things he had

4 here on the muscles. He had bruises here.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at his right arm.

6 Q. Did he tell you who beat him?

7 A. He didn't know many of them and sometimes he said some would put

8 on a mask so as not to be recognised, but he also mentioned Burilo and

9 Zoran several times. He mentioned their names when he talked to us, that

10 they were not very nice.

11 Q. And when you say Zoran, do you mean (redacted)?

12 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes, (redacted).

13 Q. You just mentioned another name and I would like you to look at

14 the sheet of paper in front of you and not use the name any more but the

15 number, the code number. (redacted)

16 (redacted). What did you -- what did he tell you and where was he beaten?

17 A. 162. Let me tell you. He was taken for interrogation and came

18 back. He was flushed. He seemed to have marks of fingers on his face, on

19 his cheeks. But he did not talk much about it. Because we knew one

20 another, he told me that he had been slapped, but he did not tell me by

21 whom.

22 Q. You have mentioned already these exchanges. How many detainees

23 were in the KP Dom when you arrived?

24 A. From what I could judge -- no, no judgement. We counted when

25 people from a room would go to lunch. So there were about 500, 520. I

Page 2399

1 don't know how many of them there were in isolation cells, because we

2 could not know that. But about 500, 520.

3 Q. And when you left the KP Dom, how many were there still? How many

4 remained behind?

5 A. Well, again, I should say 150 to 200, and I thought that they were

6 all exchanged, but whether there was an exchange or not -- because I was

7 looking forward to the exchange too, and when I left one day, I got to the

8 door, and at the door my colleague and I were told by Savo Todovic, "You

9 two in the back row, you are not being exchanged. You are going as

10 drivers."

11 Q. Witness, we come to this -- we come to this -- Witness --

12 A. And later on --

13 Q. Wait. We come to this particular point. We come in more details

14 later on. I just want to know about the exchanges before you yourself

15 were exchanged. Did you ever try to actually get exchanged yourself?

16 Because you said you were actually looking forward to this. Did you try

17 to get exchanged?

18 A. I tried. I begged. I also wrote a written application and asked

19 for the guard to take it, asking whether the warden could receive me. And

20 he said, "Yes, but you have to apply in writing." And I did. Twice I

21 wrote. But whether it ever reached the warden or did the guard throw it

22 away, I don't know, but I never managed -- I never made it to the warden.

23 And I wanted to ask him to exchange me if possible, what was I doing

24 there, and that was the reason I did it.

25 Q. Did you ever ask a particular guard to put you on a list for

Page 2400

1 exchange?

2 A. Yes. Not a guard. I asked Mr. Rasevic to intercede, because we

3 knew each other, and I told him, "Please, can you include me in the

4 exchange?" And he said, "Why do you want to go? Nobody is going to harm

5 you here. We protect you here. We're something like a protection

6 service. And I have no say. I can't help you, because it's not up to us

7 to decide who will be exchanged. We only get lists. We have nothing to

8 do with this. We're only guarding you."

9 Q. Did he indicate who was making the decision about exchanges?

10 A. Well, not directly. I didn't hear it from him. But on one

11 occasion I heard -- I think that this policeman, Maric, known as Mare,

12 told us that the lists were coming from the Crisis Staff - and those who

13 were in the Crisis Staff could probably confirm this - and he said that

14 they were the ones determining who was to be exchanged.

15 Q. When did this conversation take place? Do you recall that, the

16 conversation with Mr. Maric?

17 A. I was in Room 20 and I think it was July, approximately July.

18 Q. The Crisis Staff, did he explain who that was? This guard Maric,

19 did he tell you who that actually was in person?

20 A. Well, I knew that Miro Stanic was the head of that Crisis Staff,

21 because a man who was brought in with me, prior to being returned to Foca,

22 he had received a pass signed by Miro Stanic. And he took his car and his

23 wife -- he had taken his car and his wife to Montenegro and then was

24 returned with me with this group of 21 people. We never heard of him

25 either.

Page 2401

1 Q. Who was he, this detainee?

2 A. He was a retired individual, Ismet Pasovic. And let me explain.

3 He left with a group that was sent to Montenegro, to Rozaje. Half of

4 those people are gone, including him.

5 Q. And you mentioned Miro Stanic. Who was he? What was his

6 position?

7 A. He was the chairman of the SDS, and I believe that he was the

8 manager of a company called Trikotaza.

9 Q. You have already mentioned this group that went to Rozaje and half

10 of them are missing. Do you know any -- do you remember any particular

11 group that was also taken out for exchange before you yourself?

12 A. I remember a group which was taken -- or should I leave it for

13 later, when we come to this point? A lot of groups were taken away for

14 exchange, and I remember that, and we were pleased with it, because they

15 had changed their tactics. They wouldn't take the people away at night

16 anymore, but simply during the day they would come in and call a group of

17 ten people and they would say, "Come, pick up your belongings." There

18 wouldn't be any beatings, any screaming. And people would simply leave

19 and we were told they were being exchanged. However, to this day, none of

20 these people -- many of these people had not returned. And a group of 30

21 or 35 people went what we thought was to be plum picking. However, they

22 never returned. They left without their belongings.

23 Q. And when did they leave?

24 A. They left on the 17th of September.

25 Q. And do you recall any of them, any names?

Page 2402

1 A. Dzemo Balic went from my room; also Murto Deleut; Esat Soro; also

2 Zecir, or a similar first name, Hadzimuratovic, also known as Zeka; and

3 also two people from Room 16, they were taken as well to go plum picking,

4 Hadzimesic and Konjo Halid; Hadzimesic, Mirsad and Halid, Konjo.

5 Q. And did you ever hear of -- did you ever see these people again or

6 did you hear of them?

7 A. No, never. They never came back. I inquired, because I knew many

8 people, and some of them were even found during exhumations. I believe

9 they found seven of them.

10 Q. Who? Who did they find? What did you hear? Can you name some?

11 A. I know Sulejman Celik was found and Konjo Halid.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the witness actually doesn't

13 need his notes. He has actually such a good memory that it was -- he

14 doesn't -- we do not have to return to the notes.

15 JUDGE HUNT: We've got the copies now, as I understand it, so it

16 might be just as well if a copy is given to counsel for the Defence before

17 they have to cross-examine on it, if they wish to cross-examine on it.

18 The witness should be given the original back. And least importantly, it

19 mightn't be a bad idea if we got a copy as well.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I have no further questions in relation

21 to the notes, because he has -- the witness has known all this by heart,

22 even -- and I see now that the third page actually relates to the

23 so-called plum pickers, so ...

24 JUDGE HUNT: But you had, as I understood it, wanted to tender it

25 into evidence. Is that so? This is a complete copy --

Page 2403

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

2 JUDGE HUNT: -- or a more complete copy of the document which is

3 presently given the identification number of 201.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. We would like to enter it

5 into evidence.

6 JUDGE HUNT: What's your attitude towards that, Mr. Bakrac?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No objections.

8 JUDGE HUNT: It may be unwise to give it the number 201, because

9 it's not quite the same document. So we'll give it the next number, which

10 is 421, P421. And should it be under seal?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. I think those people, all of those

12 people are presumably -- oh, no. No, sorry. I see there are some witness

13 names on it.

14 JUDGE HUNT: That's what I thought.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, you're right, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE HUNT: So it will be Exhibit P421 and it will be under seal.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you.

18 Q. Witness, did you work in the prison while you were detained there?

19 A. You mean in KP Dom?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Without going into details, did other detainees work?

23 A. Yes. They worked. A lot of them volunteered to work because they

24 would get an extra piece of bread. Normally we would be given two pieces

25 of -- normally they would be given two pieces of bread at lunch and the

Page 2404

1 rest of us would be given one piece, so that was the main motive.

2 Q. Do you know a person Murid Islambasic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did he have to work or did he volunteer to work?

5 A. He did not volunteer, definitely not. I don't know what he did,

6 but he was taken away always. He would go and come back. But I don't

7 know where he worked, because I didn't have contact with him in prison at

8 all.

9 Q. But how can you say that he definitely did not work voluntary?

10 A. Well, I saw that he had a hard time walking. He was limping and

11 he had pain in his leg and he didn't look too good, so I believe he did

12 not volunteer to go and work.

13 Q. You said he did not know what he was doing. Did you ever learn

14 later what his job was?

15 A. No. I found out when he was exchanged and when I saw him. But

16 then, at the time, at KP Dom, I did not know what he did.

17 Q. And what did he -- when you met him later, after your release,

18 what did he tell you?

19 A. He was a driver and he was looking for mines, trying to detect

20 mines.

21 Q. You said that you were detained in the KP Dom until the 18th of

22 September, 1992. What happened on this day?

23 A. On that day a guard came with a list. I think it was Vukovic, but

24 I cannot remember. And that was the happiest moment during those four

25 months, when he came into the room and called me -- called out my name,

Page 2405

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Page 2406

1 told me to collect my belongings and go down. I was so happy, I cried.

2 There were 14 of us. When we came to this infamous gate, I was at the

3 head of the column, me and my friend, and then the door opened and Savo

4 Todovic came out, who told me, "You and your friend, you go to the back of

5 the column, because you are not being exchanged; you are going as

6 drivers." Naturally, I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know what

7 it meant to be a driver. I thought that perhaps I needed to drive people

8 for exchange, Serb on one side and then bring other people back. That's

9 what I thought. However, I was unhappy when I heard from him that I was

10 not going to be exchanged, and he also told me, "Well, we'll see what are

11 we going to do with you."

12 Q. And when you say "your friend," is that the person listed also on

13 the sheet as your colleague? Don't say the name; just look at it.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So where were you taken, you and the other detainees?

16 A. We were loaded on a truck and taken to Kalinovik. In Kalinovik,

17 12 were taken into a hangar, some kind of a military building, and the two

18 of us were told, "Come into our truck." So we were taken to the police

19 station and turned over there.

20 Q. How long did you have to stay in the police station?

21 A. I spent in their prison, in the police station, myself and my

22 colleague -- I stayed there for six months and my colleague remained there

23 after me. They used me and my colleague just as they used Murid, as a

24 driver detecting mines.

25 Q. What does that mean? What did you actually have to do?

Page 2407

1 A. A military policeman would come and take one of us, tell us, "Come

2 with me." They would give me the worst truck they had so that if it ran

3 into a mine, no great damage would be caused. So then I would drive that

4 truck in front of their column so that if the road was mined, I would be

5 the one to be blown up and not them. And this is how I spent those six

6 months, in a very -- under a lot of pressure.

7 Q. And how often did you have to drive in front of such a convoy?

8 A. Not often. During those six months I was probably asked to do

9 that five or six times, and we went in different directions from

10 Kalinovik. And my colleague was used more often because he was younger

11 and -- well, that's it. So this -- every time we left, he and I were left

12 to drive, we would say goodbye to each other as if we were never going to

13 see each other again; and when we returned, we were very happy.

14 Q. And you said that your colleague was -- had to drive more often

15 than you. What would your estimate be? How often did he have to do that?

16 A. When somebody needed to go -- I was not used frequently. I was

17 more frequently asked to repair or maintain their vehicles. And if

18 somebody needed to go, then they usually sent him. He was also younger

19 than me. Fortunately, we survived, despite the fact that my colleague ran

20 into -- he passed one mine, and a third vehicle in a column in fact ran

21 into the mine.

22 Q. And in which areas did you have to drive? Did you know the areas?

23 A. Well, I knew those roads, more or less, the roads leading to

24 Nevesinje, Miljevina, the old road across Zelengora towards Cemerno.

25 Q. Did you ever try to get released from Kalinovik or relieved from

Page 2408

1 this particular dangerous job?

2 A. Yes. I personally asked the commander, the colonel who was in

3 charge of Kalinovik area, who was a military commander of that area, and I

4 asked him to not use us civilians for those purposes, and he told me that

5 they were not the ones who assigned this task to us, but that we were

6 assigned this task in Foca. He told me that they asked -- they had asked

7 for two drivers and the two of us were sent. He also told us that they

8 did not want us for exchange because people from Trnovo wanted their own

9 people to be exchanged. So he said that they were not the ones who

10 assigned this task of detecting mines to us.

11 Q. When did you leave Kalinovik?

12 A. I left Kalinovik on March 21st, 1993.

13 Q. And where were you taken?

14 A. I was taken towards Foca, and I spent one night in a police

15 station in Miljevina, and then the following morning, before dawn, they

16 came and took me to the KP Dom in Foca, where they picked up another

17 detainee and put him in the car next to me.

18 Q. Yes. And then?

19 A. And then we came to town, near the municipal building, and another

20 man in a camouflage uniform got into the car so there was a total of five

21 of us, two of us and three of them in a Golf, and we drove towards

22 Celebici, towards Montenegro. In Jabucari [phoen] we waited for a bit and

23 another red car caught up with us. There were two men in camouflage

24 uniforms in it, a driver and another man, and three girls, and I found out

25 at that time that they also went for exchange. I didn't know who they

Page 2409

1 were, but this old man that we picked up -- that we had picked up, he told

2 me this because he knew them. So we went to Pljevla, Priboj, Rogatica,

3 Pale, and we reached the camp Kula in Sarajevo. I remained there for two

4 more days, and then on the third day, a state commission, together with

5 UNPROFOR, carried out an exchange. They exchanged five of us for one of

6 them.

7 Q. When you say "one of them," do you mean for a Serb, or what do you

8 mean?

9 A. I mean a Serb.

10 Q. Yes. Witness, at the beginning of your testimony, you told us

11 that your director, when you met him in Igalo, mentioned that Mr. Tesovic

12 had been replaced by Mr. Krnojelac. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac in the KP

13 Dom?

14 A. Yes. I saw him on few occasions, while he was going to lunch in a

15 restaurant, because a restaurant had one entrance for us inmates and

16 another entrance for employees, and once he passed a line in which I was

17 standing waiting to go for lunch. So I saw him a couple of times passing

18 by, but I didn't see him touring the rooms and going there intentionally.

19 Q. Was he actually the warden, do you know?

20 A. Well, the guards said he was a warden so I had no reason not to

21 believe that.

22 Q. When you saw him in the yard, what was he wearing?

23 A. He wore a military shirt, grey-olive colour, and trousers. It was

24 summertime.

25 Q. Did he have a weapon?

Page 2410

1 A. A pistol on a belt around his waist.

2 Q. When you saw him in the yard, was he alone or were other people

3 with him?

4 A. Mostly people who worked in the management. I didn't really know

5 all of them, but they would normally go to lunch in a group. He never

6 went alone. I saw Savo Todovic more frequently coming in and organising a

7 working unit. I saw him much more frequently. And Mr. Krnojelac, I saw

8 only when he was going to lunch and not on other occasions.

9 Q. What position did Mr. Savo Todovic have; do you know?

10 A. Well, we heard that from policemen or, rather, guards as well --

11 we heard that he was a deputy or an assistant, whatever, to the warden.

12 Q. And when you saw him, what was he wearing?

13 A. Also a military shirt and trousers. He also had a pistol on a

14 belt.

15 Q. Do you know how he treated detainees? Did you see him behave?

16 A. I didn't see it. I didn't.

17 Q. You have mentioned Mr. Rasevic already. Who was he? What was his

18 position?

19 A. I think that he was something like a guard supervisor. He was

20 assigning the guards. I have to tell you that I don't know his position

21 exactly. I just know that he was the only Serb who, under those

22 circumstances, talked to me and treated me fairly. We were long-standing

23 acquaintances and knew each other's families. And I can't tell you

24 exactly what his position was, whether he was a supervisor or a chief of

25 the guards.

Page 2411

1 Q. You said he treated you fairly. Did he help you in any way while

2 were you in the KP Dom?

3 A. Well, he helped me in a way, if that can be called help, but at

4 that time, it was a great help to me. He told me that my family had left

5 for Montenegro so that I should not worry about them any more. On one

6 occasion, he brought me five or six packets of cigarettes and told me that

7 allegedly my wife had sent it to me. However, when I later on was

8 exchanged and I saw my wife, she told me, "I couldn't find bread for

9 myself. How could I have sent you some cigarettes?" Which means that he

10 himself gave me those cigarettes. So that was the help he provided to

11 me. And when I talked to him on other occasions, he said that we were

12 simply there so -- so that they could protect me, because if we were to be

13 sent to the front line, we would have been killed there. So this is all

14 that I know about Rasevic.

15 Q. You said that Mr. Rasevic told you that you were there so that he

16 could protect you. Did you feel protected and were you protected while

17 you were there?

18 A. He did tell me -- he told me, "You need not worry because nobody

19 would harm you as long as I'm here." I told him, "Well, you're not always

20 here." And that's what I told him. "You're not always here, so is there

21 any other way you can help me get exchanged?" So this is the dialogue we

22 had. It was an official dialogue, official conversation, because I had

23 asked the guard to let me come see him and talk to him. So that was the

24 conversation we had in front of the doors, and after that I was sent back

25 and locked up again.

Page 2412

1 Q. And did you feel safe while you were detained?

2 A. Well, I didn't. How could I have felt safe when we had no

3 freedoms and no rights there? We couldn't look through the window, so how

4 could I have felt safe under those circumstances?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions of the

6 Prosecution.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I think we will wait until after lunch, Mr. Bakrac,

8 for cross-examination. We will resume again at 2.30.

9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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Page 2413

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. You've finished?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

4 JUDGE HUNT: You haven't thought of anything more?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Right. Mr. Bakrac.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

9 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Mihajlo Bakrac and I am one of

10 the counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac. I shall ask you a few

11 questions related to your testimony today.

12 Could you please tell the Court if, in one of your statements that

13 you gave to OTP investigators, you said that the SDA and the SDS discussed

14 before the war how to distribute the offices in the police and the Foca

15 administration?

16 A. Yes, I did say that.

17 Q. Thank you. Perhaps it is my duty to -- this was a short answer,

18 but I have to ask you to wait a little after you hear my question so that

19 it could be interpreted. We both speak the same language, and therefore

20 the interpreters' work is more difficult.

21 Is it also correct that in the statement that you gave to OTP

22 investigators, you said that after the armed conflicts broke out in Foca,

23 the fighting gained in intensity? Now, who was fighting whom?

24 A. I don't remember saying that.

25 Q. In your first statement of 19th of April, 1996, on page 2, the

Page 2414

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14 English and French transcripts.

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22

23

24

25

Page 2415

1 last passage, you said: "The fighting became ever fiercer and during the

2 night there were serious clashes."

3 A. I do not remember saying that.

4 Q. Did you give a statement to the Prosecutor on the 19th of April,

5 1996?

6 A. I didn't understand you.

7 Q. Did you make a statement to the OTP on the 19th of April, 1996?

8 A. I know I gave statements. I don't remember the date, but I

9 suppose I did give a statement if the Prosecution -- if the OTP has the

10 document, and I can't remember all those dates.

11 Q. Well, I was reading to you the statement which the Defence was

12 given by the OTP, and on the last page it says that "The statement was

13 read out to me in Bosnian and English language and according to which I

14 said everything I knew to the best of my knowledge and recollection."

15 Now, will the Prosecutor please -- I shall ask the usher to help me

16 ascertain if this is indeed your signature.

17 A. This is my signature. Yes, it is my signature.

18 Q. So we can agree that you gave this statement, we can agree that it

19 was signed. It is noted that it was read to you. Is, then, what it says

20 correct or isn't it?

21 A. I cannot remember, because 1996 was a long time ago. I can't

22 remember what exactly I said. But the fact is that the fighting began,

23 that there were negotiations. That is a fact, because I learnt it from

24 the then-mayor of the municipality. And it wasn't the beginning of the

25 war, but the parties in power were to distribute between them the offices

Page 2416

1 in the judiciary and - what do I know - police business and so on and so

2 forth. Since they shared in power, they were to distribute those offices

3 between them. When they could not reach an agreement, then

4 Mr. Maksimovic - and I quote what the mayor told me - normal negotiations

5 fire. And it was on that day, which was the 4th of April or something,

6 around 10.00, bursts of fire began around the town. That is what I

7 meant. I don't know if you understood me, but that is how it was. That

8 is the kind of statement that I do remember.

9 Q. You said the fire started, and who fired at whom?

10 A. It was the SDS which fired, which attacked the town. I don't

11 really know who did they attack at all.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Now, sir, I just want to add my own statement to what

13 was said by Mr. Bakrac earlier. You must wait for a perceptible pause

14 after the question that has been asked, to enable the translators to catch

15 up. They have grave difficulty when they have to interpret both the

16 question and the answer when you are both speaking at the same time. So

17 please pause before you answer the question.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Is it correct that you also gave a statement to the security

21 centre in Sarajevo?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you remember if in that statement you spoke about the armament

24 of Muslims and the supply of arms to them?

25 A. I don't remember saying that. Nobody did. Nobody offered to arm

Page 2417

1 me, so I don't know if anybody was getting weapons. I don't remember

2 saying that.

3 Q. In your statement to the security centre on the 30th of June,

4 1993, as it says here, on page 1 -- there are no separate passages but I

5 shall read it slowly.

6 "And Muslims were also getting weapons. That is some of them

7 made primitive shotguns and those better off purchased them, whereas

8 presumably some received them free of charge. In Foca, it was said, and I

9 did not see that, the weapons were sold to Muslims by Senad Sahinpasic and

10 his associates Raho and Pajo and also by Aziz Sljivo and Halid Cengic."

11 Is it correct that you stated that to the security centre in

12 Sarajevo?

13 A. No, no. That is not my statement.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to show

15 the statement or, rather, the signature on the statement to --

16 Q. And I should like to ask you to tell us if this is your

17 signature.

18 A. The signature is mine but I do not recall making such a statement.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the usher please

20 give the statement back to me?

21 Q. Is it correct that in one of these statements you gave to OTP

22 investigators, you also said the following: "Milorad Krnojelac was not

23 actively involved in politics before the war. I remember him only as a

24 member who cared about his work. Before the war, I did not observe that

25 Krnojelac had anything against Muslims. He was always very polite --

Page 2418

1 civil"?

2 A. Do you want me to answer? Yes, I did say that.

3 Q. Thank you, sir. In the first statement to the OTP, of the 19th of

4 April, 1996, 19th of April, 1996, you said that you saw Milorad Krnojelac

5 in a military blouse and trousers with no cap. You did not indicate then

6 that he had a gun, a pistol.

7 A. Shall I answer? It is possible that I stated that and probably

8 nobody asked me if he had one or perhaps I made a mistake or something.

9 Q. Was that the former JNA uniform?

10 A. That is the blouse and trousers -- not a blouse, a shirt.

11 Q. Did you, in one of your statements to the OTP, say that from

12 guards and inmates, you heard that Milorad Krnojelac was the warden of the

13 KP Dom? You did not mention your manager and that he was the one who had

14 told you that.

15 A. Well, possibly nobody asked me that, and I did not need to mention

16 this because I learned that he was the warden as soon as I arrived there.

17 Q. Did they ask you how did you know that Milorad Krnojelac was

18 warden?

19 A. I've already told you, by the -- from the guards and those whom I

20 found there, the detainees. It's from them that I learned it. I've

21 already said so.

22 Q. Today, you said that Mitar Rasevic was the only person of Serb

23 origin that you communicated with during your detention in the KP Dom.

24 A. I meant normally, as a man to man.

25 Q. Could you tell me if you remember which guard was it that you

Page 2419

1 heard about Milorad Krnojelac being the warden?

2 A. Well, it could have been Maric, I can mention his name.

3 Q. Is it correct that in your statements to the OTP, you said that

4 you saw Savo Todovic with different lists in the KP Dom, and also that you

5 heard from detainees that Savo Todovic was Krnojelac's deputy and that you

6 did not know if he compiled the lists but that you knew that he had lists

7 which he then gave the guards? He would open the iron gate, call a guard

8 and give him a list? Is that correct?

9 A. May I answer? Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Is it also correct that in one of the statements to

11 OTP investigators, you said that Savo Todovic and Mitar Rasevic had

12 visited prisoners, gone from room to room, and told you not to be afraid

13 when prisoners were taken for exchange, and that they also said that the

14 lists came from the Crisis Staff and that they could not change them?

15 A. Yes, that's how it was.

16 Q. Today you told us that Maric was the only one who told you that.

17 A. Well, perhaps I omitted to mention. Perhaps I simply didn't

18 remember. Had you not asked me that, it simply did not occur. The fact

19 is that we all knew about it, especially those in the work platoon. They

20 used to go out and they knew who held what office.

21 Q. Thank you. Is it also correct that in your statement to OTP

22 investigators, you said that on the day when you were sent to Kalinovik to

23 be exchanged, you did not see Krnojelac in the KP Dom?

24 A. I did not.

25 Q. Is it also true that in relation to this exchange, you stated that

Page 2420

1 in front of the KP Dom you were taken -- you had been taken over by the

2 military police?

3 A. We were taken over by the military police or, rather, by the

4 troops, by soldiers. They took us to Kalinovik.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I

6 think in the transcript there is an error. The witness said he did not

7 see Krnojelac, and it turns out that he did not say that. This is 75,

8 line 12.

9 JUDGE HUNT: At the present time it shows the answer as being "I

10 did not." What do you say he did say?

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That he said, "I did not see

12 Krnojelac that day."

13 A. I did not see him. I saw Savo Todovic.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Does that now make it clear?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So you were taken over by troops in front of the KP Dom; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, with an army truck.

19 Q. And who was present on behalf of the KP Dom on that occasion?

20 A. The gate opened and, as I told you, Savo Todovic informed me and

21 my colleague that we were not to be exchanged, that we were going as

22 drivers, and that "Later on we'll see what to do with you." And we were

23 taken out; that is, the door was opened, they searched us and pushed us

24 onto the truck. Those troops who had come to fetch us, they were the ones

25 who took us away.

Page 2421

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Page 2422

1 Q. Is it also correct that representatives of the army exchanged you

2 on the day when you were finally exchanged in Sarajevo?

3 A. Army representatives brought us for exchange to Kula.

4 Q. Is it also correct that in your statement to the OTP, you said

5 that while you were in Kalinovik you did not see any of the Serb

6 authorities in Kalinovik?

7 A. Correct. I did not see any of them.

8 Q. Is it also correct that you stated how, during your stay there,

9 the military commander, Bundalo, had ordered the police not to lay a

10 finger on you?

11 A. Yes, that is certainly correct.

12 Q. Is it also correct that in your statement to the State Security

13 Centre in Sarajevo, you said that the living conditions in the KP Dom were

14 tolerable?

15 A. Yes. I'm sorry. I didn't wait for interpretation. I said about

16 the accommodation because it was already an establishment where there were

17 at least some conditions, sleeping conditions. There was water, there

18 were lavatories. That is what I meant.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you. Is it correct that you also mentioned that

20 in the -- that Gojko Jokanovic, a medical assistant, worked in the KP Dom?

21 A. Yes, I did mention that.

22 Q. Was he there daily?

23 A. He was there every day except when he would be absent, and then

24 somebody else would come from the hospital to work in the clinic instead

25 of him.

Page 2423

1 Q. Did physicians from the hospital also come?

2 A. Yes, they did.

3 Q. In your statement to the OTP, sir, you mentioned that you had been

4 in Room 18. Is that correct?

5 A. No, it's not correct. It was either my slip of the tongue or

6 somebody simply did not put it down correctly. It is not true. I was

7 never in Room 18. No, I wasn't.

8 Q. Thank you. You also said that from Room 20, sometime in early

9 July, you were moved to Room 11 for about 20 days or so. Could you tell

10 me: Whom did you find in Room 11, insofar as you can remember?

11 A. I cannot remember. It was a long time ago and I really don't

12 remember. And I am afraid to now confuse those who were in Room 20 and

13 those who were in the other one. So I think that I remember (redacted)

14 being there.

15 Q. Do you perhaps remember somebody else whom you found in Room 11?

16 A. Murat Granov, he was there, I'm sure. His nickname was Fure. No,

17 I can't. Believe me, I just can't.

18 Q. You then said that you were taken back to Room 20. Who else from

19 Room 11 joined you then in Room 20? Can you remember that?

20 A. All of us who had been taken to Room 11 were then taken back. I

21 don't know how long it was, but they simply vacated that room. Nobody

22 stayed there. They took us all back to our former rooms.

23 Q. But could you tell me: When you say "all of us," whom do you

24 remember?

25 A. Well, I remember -- no. No, I can't remember. I can't. I can't

Page 2424

1 recall who it was.

2 Q. Today you mentioned that the person who had a bed next to you and

3 who worked in the mechanic shop had told you that the vehicle with the

4 specific sound had been washed.

5 A. That was when I was in Room 20.

6 Q. But could you tell us who was it that told you that?

7 A. Sefko Kubat, who is dead, he died in the prison. I wasn't there

8 then, but I learnt about it later on. I learnt later that he suffered

9 from an ulcer or cancer or something, that he was operated in the hospital

10 but did not survive.

11 Q. Do I understand you well that you said that Sefko Kubat had seen

12 the car being washed rather than he had washed it?

13 A. No, no, no. I mean washed, just recently washed. It was still

14 wet when he saw it.

15 Q. Is it correct that Asim Hadzimuratovic was in Room 20 with you?

16 Do you know the name Asim Hadzimuratovic?

17 A. Yes, the name is familiar. The name is familiar to me because I

18 used to know him before. He was a heart patient. He had a heart

19 condition and had been operated on.

20 Q. Do you know where Asim Hadzimuratovic comes from?

21 A. From Jelec.

22 Q. I'll read out to you now the statement that you gave to the State

23 Security Centre in Sarajevo and which you already had a look at to see if

24 that was your signature:

25 "From among people from Jelec, I knew Asim Hadzimuratovic, who

Page 2425

1 had a heart condition. Others were younger. From my room they allegedly

2 took out the next people for exchange: Asim Logo, Ismet Cankusic, Dzafer

3 Kovac ..."

4 Yes, I apologise.

5 "... Ovcina, Dzafer Kovac, Hadzo Pasovic [phoen], Asim

6 Hadzimuratovic, and some others also left?

7 A. All those people that you read, all those names, are correct

8 except for Hadzimuratovic, Asim. I might have mentioned him, but he was

9 not from my room. I might have mentioned him, together with others, and

10 those others were not taken for exchange; they were released to

11 Montenegro, sent to Montenegro, mostly elderly people, some of them with

12 health conditions, and some people -- there were some younger people in

13 that room as well.

14 Q. And do you know in which room Asim Hadzimuratovic stayed?

15 A. I think it was on the room -- on the floor above us, because all

16 the people that were brought in from Jelec were put in that room and the

17 room above us. But, you know, you really can't expect me to remember all

18 of this. I'm not a computer.

19 Q. In front of you there is a list, and on that list, next to a

20 person's name, there is a mark FWS-162. Was that person with you in Room

21 20?

22 A. Yes, for a period of time.

23 Q. What period of time?

24 A. That person was brought one day after me from Podgorica. And he

25 stayed there for a certain amount of time, I'm not sure exactly how long

Page 2426

1 it was, and later on we were separated.

2 Q. Do you know which room he was taken in later?

3 A. I don't remember. I don't remember.

4 Q. In the evening hours, was -- were there any lights in the

5 compound?

6 A. Only when there was power and mostly on the lower floors of the

7 compound but not in the entire compound. The entire compound was never

8 lighted too much.

9 Q. You said "when there was power." So were there periods without

10 power?

11 A. Well, I can't really tell you. It did occur on many occasions. I

12 can't really tell you how many times we didn't have power.

13 Q. You said when there was power, then the lights were on only in the

14 vicinity of the administrative building; is that correct?

15 A. Well, there were lights, but I can't tell you exactly where and

16 what do you mean by having lights on. There were very strong lights,

17 torch lights, near the guards' booths, and there were lights everywhere as

18 well.

19 Q. Is it true that you stated that distance between your room and the

20 administrative building was about 30 to 40 metres?

21 A. I didn't really measure it but something like that.

22 Q. When you were arrested and during your detention, did you have

23 your glasses with you during that time?

24 A. I had my old glasses. I had my old glasses.

25 Q. Today, when asked by the Prosecutor, you said that you couldn't

Page 2427

1 recognise the guards that were taking out these individuals; is that

2 correct?

3 A. I didn't understand. What do you mean I was not able to

4 recognise?

5 Q. Well, you said that you couldn't recognise the guards that were

6 taking out people.

7 A. Well, how could I recognise somebody that I don't really know?

8 Q. Were you able to recognise the guards that you knew?

9 A. There may be only two guards that I knew by sight from before the

10 war, but I didn't -- I wasn't able to recognise anyone.

11 Q. Which two guards did you know prior to the war?

12 A. I knew Milenko Vladicic and I also knew mostly by sight, Maric,

13 Maric, what was his name? Pljevacic.

14 Q. So did you know Maric from before?

15 A. Well, I would see him but I really, even before the war, didn't

16 have much contact with those people.

17 Q. You mean not even -- when you said not even before the war, do you

18 mean that also you didn't have much contact with them while you were

19 detained?

20 A. Well, we couldn't really contact them frequently. I asked him a

21 few times something to do me a favour and he wasn't able to do so, so you

22 would ask them to allow to you do something and they would not, so it

23 wasn't really a contact that we had with them. We were simply

24 subordinated to them and that's it.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

Page 2428

1 witness a drawing, ID 6/1?

2 Q. Sir, you said that from the administrative building you could hear

3 six shots. Could you please tell us where were these shots coming from?

4 A. This is the administrative building, a restaurant.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak into the microphone,

6 please?

7 A. So this is the building, and there were windows facing all sides,

8 this side and that side, so from each window, you could see these rooms

9 here very well. These are the rooms in the ground floor.

10 Q. So this is where the shots were heard coming from?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we better get that recorded. He was pointing

13 generally to all of the rooms between the entrance and the room marked

14 Sala. Would you agree with that, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Would you agree with that, Mr. Bakrac?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I agree but I would

18 also add that this is the right wing of the administrative building.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Ah, yes, yes.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Q. Today, when asked by the Prosecutor, you replied that you gave a

22 statement to Inspector Vladicic; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You also stated that you had not read that statement because you

25 didn't have your glasses.

Page 2429

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Page 2430

1 A. I had them but they were in my room. I didn't take my glasses

2 with me.

3 Q. Thank you. You mentioned persons that were taken out when you

4 heard these shots. And I would ask you to tell me whether you can

5 remember exactly which day it was when this took place?

6 A. I definitely cannot.

7 Q. Can you tell us approximately, when did this take place?

8 A. In June.

9 Q. Early, mid, or late June?

10 A. It wasn't late June. It was definitely prior to that, but I can't

11 tell you because sometimes I couldn't even tell you what my name was, let

12 alone remember dates when things took place. If I were allowed to write

13 it down, I would have written it down and then I would know it for sure

14 but I didn't know if I would live the next day, let alone write things

15 down.

16 Q. Thank you. Would you be so kind as to tell me which room was

17 Munib Veiz taken out of?

18 A. I believe it was 11 or the other room. I am not sure which number

19 they had but there were three rooms that you could reach from that

20 entrance into the building so those three rooms had the same entrance.

21 Q. So Nisic Nurko, which room was he taken out of?

22 A. I believe it was 11 as well but he went out through the same

23 entrance.

24 Q. Hamid Bico, known as Salem?

25 A. Same entrance, same exit. I don't know if it was Room 11 or 12,

Page 2431

1 there were two more rooms there, and I'm not sure which one.

2 Q. Halim Konjo, do you remember which room he was taken out?

3 A. Same.

4 Q. Room 11 or ...?

5 A. Now, whether that was 11 or another room, at any rate they were

6 all taken out through that entrance.

7 Q. Rikalo brothers, do you know which room they came out from?

8 A. Same. Most of the people were taken out through that entrance.

9 Q. Can you tell us, please, Kruno, a Croat, do you know which room he

10 was taken out of?

11 A. Same part of the building. I don't know if it was Room 11 or

12 which one but at any rate he went through the same door.

13 Q. Mate Ivancic, do you know which room he was in?

14 A. I believe he was taken out of the same place.

15 Q. Esad Kiselica?

16 A. Kiselica was taken out from the same area.

17 Q. Do you know Atka Granov, which room he was taken out of?

18 A. As well, likewise.

19 Q. Do you know which room he was in exactly?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Kuloglija, known as Kula, do you know which room he was in?

22 A. I don't remember. I can't remember exactly.

23 Q. Cankusic brothers, Abdurahman and his brother?

24 A. Well, they were in Room 11.

25 Q. Soro Seval, which room was he in?

Page 2432

1 A. He was in Room 11.

2 Q. Zulfo Veiz, which room was he in?

3 A. Well, they took him out through that same door, but I'm not sure

4 in which of those three rooms he was in.

5 Q. Was Zulfo Veiz taken out on the same day as Munib Veiz?

6 A. No, no.

7 Q. You spoke about the incident with an Albanian and two more men.

8 Do you know why they were detained in KP Dom?

9 A. Because they were not Serbs.

10 Q. Now, with respect to these three, are you aware that there was a

11 belief that they traded illegally with construction material?

12 A. Well, that is impossible. Those people lived in a village known

13 as Marinkovic [phoen].

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

15 further questions.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. You may leave now. Thank you also

19 for having given your evidence. If you would wait, please, while the

20 blinds are being pulled down so that you may leave the court without being

21 seen by the public.

22 A. Thank you very much, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Smith, before you worry us about the next

24 witness, I think there is something we have to resolve with Mr. Bakrac.

25 Although I should say this is a voice distortion case, the next one. Has

Page 2433

1 he had his voice tested already?

2 MR. SMITH: I'm unsure whether he's had his voice tested, Your

3 Honour, but he also has a hearing deficiency which some special equipment

4 needs to be set up. I believe that will take about five minutes to do

5 that.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, perhaps that can be got underway while we

7 discuss this particular problem with Mr. Bakrac. The witness can be

8 brought in so that we save time, but we better deal with Mr. Bakrac's

9 problem.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Bakrac, I understand that you are seeking a

12 rather prolonged period between the end of the Prosecution case and before

13 the Defence case starts. I want to make it very clear to you at the

14 outset that the periods that have been granted in the past depended to a

15 very large extent upon the fact that the Defence had to prepare a

16 Pre-Trial brief. The Rules have now been amended and your Pre-Trial brief

17 arrived before the trial began in accordance with the new Rule so that the

18 time which you will need to prepare the Defence case is necessarily

19 shorter than was needed previously when the Pre-Trial brief came in just

20 before the Defence case. Nevertheless, we do understand that you have to

21 assemble a few people and talk to witnesses and everything but we point

22 out to you that you had a period of, I think in the end, six weeks over

23 Christmas and you of course will have another week I think it's next

24 week. So with that in mind, what is your request?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to thank

Page 2434

1 you first for bringing up this issue, although I wanted, based on Mr.

2 Roberts' suggestion, I wanted to use this time between two witnesses to

3 bring this to your attention. I do agree, and it is true, that the

4 Defence had a lot of time over Christmas. However, up until that time,

5 the Prosecution had examined about one-third of their witnesses, one-third

6 was not questioned. We had to research some details and those were the

7 reasons why this other two-thirds of witnesses that we didn't know about

8 although we did receive some supplemental material. We could see that

9 sometimes that material differs and sometimes we don't know until the very

10 end what the witnesses are going to testify about.

11 Perhaps this would sound too optimistic to you, but the Defence is

12 now planning or proposing to submit, to prepare a Pre-Trial brief - I

13 apologise - we need to prepare our opening statements, and I believe that

14 my colleague, the Prosecutor, already mentioned when we discussed some

15 photographs a specific area where the accused comes from, and we would

16 need to bring witnesses that are well informed about the specific aspects

17 of that area.

18 I have to admit that we have a general agreement as far as certain

19 witnesses are concerned; however, we still don't have final confirmation

20 from a large number of witnesses that they would come to testify here.

21 And when we insisted on receiving this final confirmation from them so

22 that we could inform the Prosecution and the Trial Chamber of it, we were

23 told that we should wait until the Prosecution completes its case before

24 they tell us whether they would definitely come to testify here.

25 The Defence believes that if the case was well organised -- we

Page 2435

1 initially thought that perhaps three weeks would be sufficient and we

2 think that this extension, one-week extension, would perhaps save us one

3 week later on as far as some technical deficiencies were concerned. So

4 this is why the Defence wanted to prepare itself, from a technical point

5 of view, within those three weeks so that we wouldn't have any prolonged

6 periods of time later on.

7 We just recently were told that the expert psychologist would be

8 approved. This testing needs to be carried out and that the expert

9 witness has to provide us with his or her report, and this would certainly

10 take time. And this is why the Defence believes that a three-week period

11 would be sufficient for us to prepare for our case and to prevent any

12 further delays or problems later on.

13 At the same time, we believe that we need to wait until all of the

14 Prosecution witnesses have been heard so that Defence can prepare relevant

15 questions for its own witnesses based on what has been heard here from the

16 Prosecution witnesses. And these were the reasons why we decided to

17 approach Mr. Ken Roberts and explain our position to him.

18 I apologise if I've taken too much of your time with this issue.

19 JUDGE HUNT: What I do not understand is your statement that you

20 have to wait until the end of the Prosecution case in order to get

21 agreement from your witnesses that they will come. What do you mean by

22 that?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is how it is. We

24 are constantly in the field and talking to potential witnesses, and we

25 can't tell them exactly when is it that they would need to come. We tell

Page 2436

1 them approximately when they will be needed, and they would invariably

2 reply to us, "When you can tell us the exact date, the exact time when we

3 need to come and testify, then we would tell you whether we will be able

4 to come and testify," and they would also tell us at the time whether they

5 can come in person or there would be a videolink, and also they would tell

6 us whether they need protective measures.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I understand that's what you said, but I don't

8 understand the reason for it. Why can't these witnesses say they are

9 going to give evidence now? You need their evidence. Why do they not say

10 now that they can come and give evidence? As to when they come and give

11 evidence, certainly there would be a need for some arrangements to be

12 made. But you can't just sit back and do nothing about saying who is

13 going to come until after the Prosecution case is finished. I don't

14 understand who could have told you that.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am telling you which

16 kind of replies we've received, and this recess that we will have next

17 week, we shall use that to try and obtain a definite list of those that

18 would come and testify, those that would ask for protective measures and

19 those that would ask for videolink. I am simply telling you what is it

20 that we encountered during our Christmas recess when we didn't know

21 exactly how much longer the Prosecution would need for their case.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Bakrac, when you have this week off, you

23 had better warn them all that they are going to be needed, by the look of

24 it, sometime in the middle of March. That's when your case is going to

25 start. And we're not going to give you a long time simply because your

Page 2437

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Page 2438

1 witnesses say they would like to know when the Prosecution case finishes.

2 That's got nothing to do with them at all. What you have to do is to

3 start organising your first witnesses to start, it looks like, about the

4 middle of March.

5 Now, that's the best we can do. If it means that we finish in the

6 middle of a week, I'm sure we'll give you two clear weeks, but we're not

7 going to give you three clear weeks just for the sake of you having to

8 ring up a few witnesses to say, "Can you start on a particular day?" So

9 we will assess the precise time that the Defence case will have to start

10 when we're getting closer to the end of the Prosecution case, but I don't

11 want you to feel you're going to get the long delays which have been

12 granted almost traditionally in the past, because those delays are no

13 longer necessary in order to provide a Pre-Trial brief. Now, I don't

14 think we can do anything better for you now, but I think you should

15 contemplate that you will not get more than two clear weeks before the

16 Defence case will have to start.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours. I just

18 wanted to highlight this problem with witnesses as one of the reasons why

19 we had asked for this extension. However, if it's impossible, then we

20 will simply obey what the Court says.

21 JUDGE HUNT: I remind you that, as we announced a few weeks ago,

22 we are always prepared to give you some time out in order to catch up with

23 your preparation. That's perfectly appropriate. You've been given it so

24 far and the Prosecution has been given it so far, and we will continue to

25 do that. So if, after you have been going for a few weeks in your case,

Page 2439

1 you need some more time to organise, we'll give it to you, but we don't

2 want to delay the commencement of your case so that you, in effect, have

3 every witness lined up for the whole of your case. Do not hesitate to ask

4 for that time, but the period before the Defence case starts will not

5 exceed two clear weeks, as we are presently seeing the case running.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I think I got a bit ahead of the translators myself,

8 and I apologise for that.

9 Yes, now, Mr. Smith. Where is your witness?

10 MR. SMITH: I'll ask that he be brought in.

11 JUDGE HUNT: I asked that he be brought in some time ago. Where

12 is he?

13 MR. SMITH: You have more weight in this Court than me, Your

14 Honour.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Literally that may be so, but I often wonder

16 sometimes whether I do have it lawfully.

17 MR. SMITH: These gowns are deceptive.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE HUNT: Would you stand up, please, sir. You're being shown

20 a document there with a solemn declaration to be made. Would you please

21 make that solemn declaration.

22 WITNESS: FWS-159

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 2440

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

3 Now, were the interpreters not getting that sound?

4 THE INTERPRETER: We heard it, but through microphones in the

5 courtroom, not through the witness' microphone.

6 JUDGE HUNT: This is a voice distortion case, so I think we need a

7 little bit of assistance from the booth.

8 THE INTERPRETER: If the witness could say something, perhaps we

9 can check then.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, you ask him a question so that the

11 interpreters can have a chance at hearing him.

12 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour

13 Examined by Mr. Smith:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Can you just speak into the microphone

15 using the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, to ensure that we can hear you?

16 JUDGE HUNT: Turn off your mike.

17 A. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, sir. You proceed now,

19 Mr. Smith.

20 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Witness, can you hear me well?

22 A. I do. I can, yes.

23 Q. Good afternoon. The Court has granted your request for protective

24 measures in relation to your name, your visual image, and your voice. Do

25 you understand that?

Page 2441

1 A. I do.

2 Q. Please look at the piece of paper in front of you, and can you

3 tell the Court whether that's your name and date of birth that appears at

4 the top?

5 A. It is.

6 MR. SMITH: I'm not sure whether this has an exhibit number, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: No. That will be Exhibit P422 and it will be under

9 seal.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, you have to come as close as you can to the

12 microphone with your chair. That's right.

13 MR. SMITH:

14 Q. Witness, before we begin, I would just like to remind you: If you

15 could listen to the question carefully and answer the question

16 specifically, but wait until the translation has fully finished before you

17 answer. Do you understand?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. On the 28th of January, 1993, were you a member of the Bosnian

20 Muslim army?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And on that day were you captured by the Bosnian Serb army near a

23 place called Kacelj?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And where is the closest main town from Kacelj?

Page 2442

1 A. KP Dom Foca. That's where they arrested me and first took me to

2 Jabuka. And when I gave the statement there, they beat me well and good

3 with their rifles, that is, the butts, so that they broke my head, and

4 that is when I lost the power of speech. And I cannot hear anything and I

5 can retain nothing in my head. So that is where they beat me, there, good

6 and proper, hitting me, cutting my fingers.

7 And when they finished with me there, a car came and they put me

8 in the -- they boarded the car and I did. And so they drove me in the car

9 and they beat me there again with their boots and butts and damaged my

10 ribs, all the way to KP Dom Foca. They beat me on all sides, on my spine

11 and kidneys and head, so that I cannot control myself.

12 And when they brought me to KP Dom in Foca, then -- to its gate

13 there, they got me off the car and I could not even walk there. They

14 dragged me to the isolation cell. And in the isolation cell I was taken

15 over by a guard, Risto Vukovic, and those who brought me there, they

16 kicked me again and closed the door. The next day -- the next day I --

17 Q. Witness --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I know that you're feeling anxious about giving evidence today,

20 but if you could just relax. You've provided a lot of information and I'd

21 just like to ask you a couple of questions about the information that

22 you've provided. So rather than provide a lot of information, if you

23 could just listen to the question and just give a short answer to the

24 question so that we don't have to go back through your testimony. Do you

25 understand?

Page 2443

1 A. I do.

2 Q. About how many soldiers captured you on the 28th of January?

3 A. Well, at that place, ten soldiers.

4 Q. Thank you. And you said you were taken to a place called Jabuka.

5 Is that a military headquarters of the Bosnian Serb army?

6 A. Yes. That's where their headquarters is. There were another ten

7 or more of them. And when they brought me there, I made a statement, and

8 there they put me on a chair and struck me with hands and butts and feet,

9 so that they cut my fingers and all the rest.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Please, sir, just listen to the question that is

11 being asked and answer that question. And then when you've given the

12 answer to that question, Mr. Smith will lead you on to the next matter.

13 Now, the question was simply: Was Jabuka the military headquarters of the

14 Bosnian Serb army? The answer to that is yes. Now Mr. Smith will ask you

15 the next question and then you answer that. Please don't just give us all

16 the information you can think of, because it will be more difficult for us

17 to sort it out unless you give it answers to specific questions.

18 MR. SMITH:

19 Q. Witness, do you know what unit these soldiers came from?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you. Witness, you said that at this headquarters you were

22 beaten, you were kicked, and I think beaten with rifle butts. About how

23 many people beat you at this headquarters?

24 A. Twenty men.

25 Q. And were you also interrogated at these headquarters?

Page 2444

1 A. They interrogated me a little there and then they beat me.

2 Q. Do you know why they beat you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You mentioned that you received some injuries. Could you describe

5 a little bit more in detail what injuries you received when you were

6 beaten at this time at the headquarters?

7 A. Well, the injuries. To begin with, my head. First he hit me with

8 an automatic and I fell on the ground. And then, when I was down on the

9 floor, another one lifted me up and took a knife to cut my fingers and

10 then hit me with that knife on the leg and also under my chin, on the

11 chin; my chin was injured too. And when they finished interrogating me

12 there, they put me in a car. And in the car I was again -- I was injured

13 further; that is, they broke a rib and they struck me on my kidneys and on

14 my spine, all the way to Foca.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'm just now talking about the beating you

16 received at the military headquarters. You said that you were hit on the

17 leg with a knife. Did that knife cut your leg?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did it cause much bleeding?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You also said you were cut on the fingers. Did it cause them to

22 bleed?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you being beaten whilst you were being questioned or was it

25 after you were questioned?

Page 2445

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Page 2446

1 A. They did not beat me while the interrogation went on. They beat

2 me after they had interrogated me, yes.

3 Q. Thank you. And if you can keep your answers short like this, it

4 will make the proceedings move as efficiently as it can.

5 When you were questioned, what types of questions were they asking

6 you?

7 A. They asked me questions about those of theirs, of their men who

8 had stayed behind in the military service, like that.

9 Q. Do you mean men that you may have known of their whereabouts, Serb

10 men?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What men were they referring to?

13 A. Well, what men? Their men who had stayed with us. They are their

14 men who stayed in our entity, who would not go.

15 Q. Do you know who was asking you the questions?

16 A. No.

17 Q. After you were beaten, you said that you were put on a truck and

18 taken to the KP Dom; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How many other soldiers were on that truck when you were taken to

21 the KP Dom, about?

22 A. Seven or eight soldiers.

23 Q. Were you the only prisoner on the back of that truck?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you seated on the truck or were you lying on the back of it?

Page 2447

1 A. The truck, I was lying and they beat me on both sides so that in

2 that vehicle, they broke my fifth rib. And that is how they brought me to

3 the KP Dom, and I was terribly battered, for when they got me to KP Dom,

4 then that same group took me to the isolation cell and with a boot pushed

5 me into the isolation cell. And Risto Ivanovic, he is the one who took me

6 over and locked me up in the isolation cell.

7 Q. Thank you, Witness. If you can keep listening to the question and

8 just answer the specific question, we will get to what happened in the KP

9 Dom in a moment, but it makes things move along more smoothly. In the

10 back of the truck, were these soldiers -- were they seated or were they

11 standing?

12 A. Come, they were -- they sat on benches and hit me with rifle butts

13 and with heels of their boots.

14 Q. And you mentioned that you broke a rib in this beating. On what

15 other parts of the body were they hitting you? And can you please wait

16 until I'm finished the question and then can you answer?

17 A. They hit me on the spine, on the kidneys, on my head, lungs.

18 Q. Did these hits cause you to bleed?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what were you wearing that day? What clothes were you

21 wearing?

22 A. I had a blue jacket, a yellow sweater, a vest, trousers,

23 olive-grey/green. I had shoes, white trousers.

24 Q. You mentioned that the beating that you received at the military

25 headquarters caused to you bleed, and you also mentioned that the beating

Page 2448

1 on the back of the truck also caused you to bleed. About how much blood

2 did you have on your clothes when you arrived at the KP Dom -- if you can

3 just please wait until I finish the question and then could you answer?

4 A. My clothes were all bloody. My shirt, jacket, and everything, and

5 the vest, everything was soaked in blood. And my trousers were all wet.

6 Q. About what time in the day did you arrive at the KP Dom?

7 A. Half past six in the evening.

8 Q. And you mentioned earlier that you were taken straight to a

9 solitary cell. And you mentioned -- if you could just wait until I

10 finish. And then you mentioned that a Risto Ivanovic was at the KP Dom

11 when you were taken to the cell; is that right?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. How were you taken off the truck? Did you get to the cell without

14 any assistance, or did you require some assistance?

15 A. I needed assistance, and they took me under the armpits and

16 dragged me to the isolation cell because I could not walk. I hurt too

17 much.

18 Q. And where did you meet this Risto Ivanovic? Was it at the cell or

19 before you arrived there?

20 A. In front of the cell.

21 Q. And then what happened once you arrived at the cell?

22 A. Well, they locked me up and I spent there the night. And the next

23 day, another one came to take me for the second interrogation.

24 Q. That first day that you arrived at the KP Dom, were you offered

25 any medical treatment for the injuries you received at the headquarters or

Page 2449

1 on the truck?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Where was this isolation cell?

4 A. That isolation cell was on the ground floor, the first storey.

5 Q. Was the cell by itself or was it amongst a group of other

6 isolation cells?

7 A. It was on the corner of the building, and the entrance was to its

8 side, to the first storey, next to the cellar.

9 Q. Were there any other isolation cells next to the one that you were

10 placed in?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. About how many were there?

13 A. Four isolation cells.

14 Q. Were your details taken once you arrived at the KP Dom, before you

15 were placed in the isolation cell?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And were you searched before you were placed in the isolation

18 cell?

19 A. They did not, but after I spent the night there, then they looked

20 for me the next day when the other one came and took me so that I could be

21 questioned by another one.

22 Q. When you first arrived that night, you said that your clothes were

23 quite bloodied. Were you given a change of clothes when you arrived at

24 the KP Dom?

25 A. No.

Page 2450

1 Q. Were you offered a bath or a shower to clean when you first

2 arrived?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And what did you sleep in? Did you sleep in your clothes?

5 A. I slept in those clothes, and it -- those clothes stank on me. I

6 slept in those clothes all the time.

7 Q. And what did you sleep on?

8 A. I slept on the concrete, on a four centimetre sponge, and there

9 was a blanket.

10 Q. That first night when you arrived there, was there any heating in

11 the room?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You said that on the next day, the day after you arrived, you were

14 interviewed; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who interviewed you?

17 A. It was Milorad and one Boro Ivanovic. They questioned me then,

18 and after, when they finished, took that -- collected that information --

19 can you hear me?

20 Q. I can hear you. Now I'll ask you another question. You mentioned

21 that a Milorad and a Boro Ivanovic interviewed you. Did you know the

22 surname of that Milorad?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Was there anyone else present during the interview?

25 A. There were two others.

Page 2451

1 Q. And do you know their names?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And do you know whether they were soldiers or guards or civilians?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Were you seated or were you standing during the interview?

6 A. Standing.

7 Q. And Boro Ivanovic and this Milorad, were they seated or standing?

8 A. Seated.

9 Q. Were you still in the same clothes that you wore when you arrived

10 at the KP Dom?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did either this Boro Ivanovic or Milorad offer you any medical

13 treatment whilst you were being interviewed?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Can you describe what questions you were being asked?

16 A. Boro asked me about the military task, where were our positions,

17 and who is -- who holds those positions.

18 Q. Were you told that you were lucky that you were captured by a

19 certain group of people?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what did he say about that, about your luck?

22 A. He told me, "Had others caught you, those who slit throats on the

23 spot, they would have cut off your head as if you were a rooster."

24 Q. Was there any questions or talk about Muslim males that were

25 captured?

Page 2452

1 A. They asked me questions and wanted me to write a statement, but I

2 could not because I was in a state of shock, and when I was in the state

3 of shock, they wrote a statement, each one for himself.

4 Q. Was there any discussion about the Drina River when you were

5 spoken to?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what was discussed or what was said?

8 A. Well, it was said -- that is they questioned me, "Have corpses

9 flown down the river? What were you doing? Do you know about men who

10 were imprisoned in the KP Dom? We were giving [as interpreted] from the

11 Red Cross in Montenegro, they were floating down the river, floating from

12 Montenegro and from other places, and when we found them we buried them,"

13 and --

14 Q. And what did you say in response to this?

15 A. I kept silent.

16 Q. When he said they were floating down the river, do you know who he

17 was referring to?

18 A. Bodies.

19 Q. Did he say where these bodies were from?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Apart from military positions and a discussion about bodies

22 floating down the river and other missing Muslims, was anything further

23 discussed?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what was that?

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Page 2454

1 A. Here, he questioned me about the positions mostly, the positions

2 of our army, and who was raping their women. There, you have it. That's

3 what he asked me mostly.

4 Q. And who was asking the questions?

5 A. Both Milorad and Boro, both of them.

6 Q. Did you admit to being a soldier to these men?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Were you beaten at all during this interview?

9 A. Why, yes. Had I told them that I was a soldier, they would have

10 cut my head off, as roosters. I wouldn't have lived.

11 Q. During this interview, were you hit at all?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How many times were you hit?

14 A. I was slapped in the face by one of them because there were four

15 of them there, and he slapped me, but he said, "You listen what I'm asking

16 you. We've got our men who cut off ears, who cut off arms or a head, if

17 you lie to us."

18 Q. And who slapped you?

19 A. Well, a soldier of theirs.

20 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this is probably a good time to finish.

21 JUDGE HUNT: We will resume at 9.30 in the morning.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Tuesday the 30th day of January,

24 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

25