1 Thursday, 22
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Before we resume with the witness, there's a problem
10 next Wednesday in relation to the availability of the room where the
11 videolink is coming from, and the suggestion is that we start with FWS-49
12 rather than with 137 so that we can have the videolink evidence taken, and
13 then we can resume hearings with the witness here. Is there any problem
14 with that from the Prosecutor's point of view?
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Any problem from the Defence point of view?
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. The next problem is that the room which
19 is to be used for the videolink testimony is not going to be available
20 until 10.00 in the morning, so it seems to me the best idea would be to
21 start the proceedings at 10.00 and run everything half an hour later than
22 usual, provided there's no problems from the interpreters, the court
23 reporters, or the audio/videolink people. If there are any, please let
24 us know.
25 Right, well, we'll resume.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: As we are already talking about the witness
4 order, we have to announce that the witness 210 could not arrive here.
5 He still has problems with his passport, so we will not have this witness
6 next week.
7 JUDGE HUNT: All right, then. Do we need another one to fill in,
8 or are we so far behind with the list at the moment that you don't need
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We are far behind, and we -- actually, we
11 cannot replace him because we don't have any more witnesses.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Oh.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: So, we have to -- he will then be our last
15 JUDGE HUNT: And he'll be here the following week, will he?
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, it's good to see the end in sight.
18 Yes, Mr. Vasic.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise for
20 interrupting. There is one thing I did not understand and which would be
21 important for the Defence. What did you mean, that 210 would come next
22 week or the week after next? The translation I heard was that 210 was due
23 next week, or is it impossible for 210 to come next week and Witness 210
24 will then come the week after that? This is important for Defence
25 planning, so I apologise for interrupting, but ...
1 JUDGE HUNT: That is all right, Mr. Bakrac. What was said was
2 that 210 cannot be here next week so he'll be here the week after. So
3 we'll have only 210, hopefully, the week after next, and there will be the
4 rest of that week and then two more weeks for you to be able to prepare
5 your Defence, but we will have to have a Pre-Trial Conference at some
6 stage, probably at the end of that period.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Let's go on with the witness. Mr. Vasic.
9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 WITNESS: AMOR MASOVIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]
13 Q. Good morning, Witness.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. I have a few more questions for you. I would like you to look at
16 document P240/7, and document ID 240/6. Have you found it?
17 A. Yes, thank you.
18 Q. In document 240/7 under number 127 is the name Music, Stevan --
19 Music, Enes, father's name, Nazif. On document 240/6 under number 59, the
20 same person's name is mentioned, Music, Enes, father's name, Nazif. In
21 document ID 240/6 it says that he was born in 1922, while in document
22 P240/7 it says that this person was born on the 23rd of May, 1970.
23 Can you please explain to us - because as you said, you drafted
24 document 240/6 on the basis of document 240/7 - is it one and the same
25 person; and if it is one and the same person, how come the dates of birth
1 are quite different?
2 A. What you said is correct. In our list, his year of birth is 1922,
3 and in the list that was compiled by the Serb prison authorities, on the
4 basis of which document 240/7 was drafted, it says that he was born in
5 1970. In our records, his date of birth is 1922, and we drew on our own
7 I assume that it is the same person, but I do allow for the
8 possibility of another person with the same name and surname to exist.
9 However, it is hard to believe that everything coincides, the prisoner's
10 name, surname and father's name.
11 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I would like to ask you to look at 240/5 in
12 addition to 240/7. In document 240/5 under number 14, the name of Berber,
13 Enver, is written there, born in 1957; in 240/7 under number 11 is the
14 name of Berder, Enver, born on the 1st of January, 1937.
15 Is this one and the same person? If it is one and the same
16 person, how do you explain this difference in dates of birth?
17 A. It is one and the same person. There is no surname like "Berder"
18 in the territory of the former Yugoslavia or Bosnia-Hercegovina, let alone
19 the Foca region. There is the last name of Berber only. So perhaps the
20 prison authorities, when compiling this list that they handed over to the
21 International Red Cross, they consciously or subconsciously made a
23 This is not the only mistake in this list. There are also some
24 other mistakes in the designation of surnames. However, as in the
25 previous case, as the date of birth, the year of birth, we mentioned the
1 year that is recorded in our files. I think, but I cannot say for sure,
2 that in the book of the International Red Cross it says that this person's
3 name is Berber, Enver, and that the year of birth matches the one that we
4 have in our own records. This can be checked in the book, the register of
5 the International Red Cross.
6 Q. In view of your answer, I would like to ask you to look at
7 document ID 240/6 which you drafted, rather, the state commission did. In
8 it, under item 5, is Berber, Enver, born in 1937, like in document P240/7.
9 A few minutes ago you said that when compiling 240/5, you used your own
10 records; however, from this we can see that it matches what is in document
11 240/7. Can you explain that?
12 A. Yes, you are right. Obviously this was a slip of the tongue in
13 the previous document. Actually, could you repeat what you said?
14 Q. Number five.
15 A. Yes, number five.
16 Q. Number five in document ID 240/6, his date of birth is identical
17 to that in number 11 in document 240/7, and it differs from the date of
18 birth in document P240/5.
19 A. This document of ours was compiled on the basis of the previous
20 document in which it says that the person was born in 1937, that is to
21 say, on the basis of the document of the International Red Cross
22 committee. However, I believe, and it is possible to check this out in
23 the register of the International Red Cross, that his year of birth is
24 1957 rather than 1937, as the document sent by the prison authorities to
25 the International Red Cross says.
1 Q. Can you be quite sure that it is one and the same person?
2 A. I cannot be absolutely certain; however, since the father's name
3 and the name and surname of the person concerned are the same, I believe
4 that it is one and the same person.
5 Q. Thank you. In list P240/7 under number 22, the name of Brkovic,
6 Hasan, is listed, born in 1938. In list P240/5, it says that Hasan
7 Brkovic was born in 1939. Is it one and the same person, and how do you
8 explain the discrepancy in the years of birth?
9 A. I already said that in the document that was compiled by the
10 prison authorities and on the basis of which this document was compiled by
11 the International Committee of the Red Cross, there is a number of
12 mistakes that were made in these documents in terms of names and dates of
14 In this case, I assume that the date -- or rather, the year of
15 birth that we have in our records of the state commission is correct
16 rather than the date that was given by the prison authorities to the
17 International Committee of the Red Cross.
18 If you take a look at this, you'll see in the document of the
19 prison authorities it is only the year of birth that is mentioned and that
20 the date and month have not been included.
21 May I explain? These errors in the document of the International
22 Red Cross, in a few cases, either when these documents were sent from the
23 prison authorities or when the documents were translated into the English
24 language, there were certain typographical errors that were made in the
25 case of names. And I can give you a few such errors that we managed to
1 detect, either when the prison authorities typed these names out or when
2 this was translated into the English language. There are some names there
3 that do not exist in Bosnia and Herzegovina at all. Sometimes the error
4 involves one letter and sometimes even more than that, but it affects
5 either the name and/or the surname of the detainee.
6 Q. As you said, you had not seen this document of the prison
7 authorities which was later translated into English.
8 A. No. I never had the opportunity of seeing the original document
9 of the prison authorities.
10 Q. I don't think I should go into all the 11 discrepancies between
11 documents 240/7 and 240/5. Can you confirm that in all 11 cases it is one
12 and the same person that is involved, and that it is only a question of
13 years of birth that were not registered properly; or should I mention each
14 of these 11 names individually to you?
15 A. I think that this possibility, that there are different persons
16 involved, is only in the realm of theory. I am convinced that all the
17 persons mentioned in the list of the International Red Cross and those who
18 were noted by us are actually the same people.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, whilst I accept that that is the witness's
20 honest belief, it's a matter for us to determine in the end as to whether
21 they're the same people. I would prefer that you did draw attention to
22 those discrepancies where they are of some significance in the case so
23 that the witness has a chance to answer them; otherwise, we are in
24 difficulty ourselves.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. I'm just trying
1 to see whether the persons are the same because the discrepancies are up
2 to 40 or 50 years, even; and after all, it was the commission that made up
3 these lists.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Of course this is not the only evidence we have
5 about any of this material, but nevertheless, if there are significant
6 discrepancies, I suggest you put them to the witness for him to explain.
7 It may be the same explanation each time, in which case the witness can
8 say, "This is the same as the last one." But I think we should have them
9 because I don't want them to be raised for the first time in your final
10 addresses when we've no longer got the witness here.
11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Then I'll
12 take them one at a time and I'll move according to the list.
13 Q. The next name is under item 37 in document 240/5, Cengic,
14 Bilal, born in 1946 [as interpreted].
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure about the year.
16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] As for this --
17 JUDGE HUNT: Can we have that year again, please?
18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] 1956.
19 JUDGE HUNT: 1956, thank you.
20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. This person in document 240/7 under the same name is registered as
22 being born on the 1st of January, 1976.
23 A. In most cases where the International Red Cross did not have the
24 precise day and month of birth, they put the 1st of January or they
25 avoided any mention, so they would just put zero zero day, zero zero
1 month, and then the year of birth. As for the discrepancy between the
2 years of birth, my answer is the same as it was before: I am convinced
3 that our records are correct rather than the information provided by the
4 prison authorities.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Masovic, I don't want to seem disrespectful, but
6 it's for us to determine that and not you. That may be your belief, but
7 for us to determine it, we have to know why you are so convinced. Now, if
8 there is an explanation which leads you to be so convinced, will you
9 please give it to us so we can then determine for ourselves whether or not
10 these are the same people. Do you understand that?
11 A. Yes, Your Honour. I do have an explanation. This document which,
12 in my opinion, abounds in discrepancies or errors, was compiled by the
13 prison authorities, consciously or subconsciously. Perhaps they were even
14 trying to present the detainees as being younger than they actually were.
15 Our records, however, of the state commission are based on a
16 larger number of sources, and the most important sources are the family
17 members themselves. I have to believe that if a son reports about his
18 father, that the son gives the father's exact date of birth. That is why
19 I believe that our records are more accurate than those compiled by the
20 prison authorities.
21 I wish to point out that family members are not the only source of
22 information. During the first day of my testimony, I think that I
23 mentioned that we also mentioned the statistics database of the consensus
24 that was made in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1991, the last one was, and the
25 information there is very accurate: name, surname, father's name, the
1 so-called identification number of every adult person, and date of birth.
2 So on the basis of all of this, I believe that our records are
4 JUDGE HUNT: May I put this to you, because I only want to make
5 sure we come to the right conclusion in this case: You may have the right
6 details about the father of the son who reports that his father is
7 missing, but we have to be satisfied that his father was in the KP Dom.
8 Now, it may very well be you've got the right identification for
9 somebody who may not have been in the KP Dom. Now, what did you do to
10 check that the person being reported by the son in this particular case
11 was the person who had been in the KP Dom?
12 A. I spoke about this earlier. In our list of 266 persons that are
13 considered to be missing from the KP Dom, who were last seen at the KP
14 Dom, that list was compiled on the basis of certification from at least
15 two independent sources. In certain cases, we even had four completely
16 independent sources that confirmed the presence of precisely these persons
17 in the KP Dom Foca.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
19 Yes, Mr. Vasic.
20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Number 54, document 240/5, there's the name of Dervisevic, Fadil,
22 born in 1964. Number 47, document P240/7, it says that Dervisevic, Fadil,
23 was born on the 27th of January, 1969.
24 A. My answer is the same as it was in response to your previous
1 Q. Item 59 -- Duric, Ahmo, is mentioned born in 1964, and under item
2 number 51 under document P240/7 Duric, Ahmo, was born in 1972.
3 A. My answer is the same as it was in response to your previous
5 Q. Item 106 in document 240/5, Jahic, Bego, born in 1969; and in 83,
6 document 240/7, it says that Jahic, Brgo, was born on the 1st of January,
7 1960. There is even a difference in the surname.
8 A. Not only the surname. If you looked at it carefully, if you
9 analysed this document, you could see that even the father's name was
10 misspelled. So we checked this information of Jahic, Bego, son of Murif -
11 not as Murip as the prison authority said here - and the date of birth,
12 the year of birth, is not the one that was reported by the prison
14 Q. In document 240/6 under number 41, it really says Jahic, Bego, son
15 of Murif. You say you corrected the father's name. Why didn't you
16 correct the year of birth, too, because in this document it also says that
17 he was born in 1960.
18 A. I did not understand you. Is there a difference between our
19 records and the records of the International Red Cross as submitted by the
20 prison authorities, that is, in terms of the year of birth?
21 Q. You said to us a few minutes ago that in relation to document
22 P240/7, that, as you said, was given to the Red Cross by the prison
23 authorities. In document 240/6, which you compiled on your own on the
24 basis of the previous document, you corrected the information provided for
25 Jahic, Bego. You corrected his name and his father's name in relation to
1 the report of the prison authorities.
2 I'm asking you now, why you did not correct in that document the
3 year of birth, too, 1960 into 1969, as you did in 240/5?
4 A. Yes, I understood the question. In this list, which was compiled
5 on the basis of an analysis of the list of the International Committee of
6 the Red Cross, it obviously should have said "Murip," which was the wrong
7 name of the father as mentioned by the prison authorities. It is only in
8 our list, in the list of 266 persons, it was supposed to say Jahic, Bego,
9 son of Murif, the year of birth, 1969.
10 Q. So in this case, in document 240/6, you made only partial
11 corrections, not entire?
12 A. We corrected only the father's name from Murip to Murif.
13 Q. And the name of the victim from Brgo to Bego, is that correct?
14 A. Yes, that is correct.
15 Q. Considering that in document 240/5 we don't have the father's
16 name - there is no such column - is this the same person?
17 A. Can you please tell me the number?
18 Q. Number 106.
19 A. Yes, I believe it is one and the same person, Bego Jahic, born in
20 1969. This person does not come from the Foca municipality originally.
21 He was arrested in the Republic of Montenegro and was then deported and
22 turned over to Serbian authorities on the border of Bosnia and Herzegovina
23 and taken to the KP Dom Foca where he was last seen.
24 Q. In line 106 of document 240/5 which we've just mentioned, in the
25 column indicating "former residence in 1991," this space is empty. Can
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 you please tell us why it is empty? The former residence of this person
2 in 1991 is not indicated.
3 A. This man was born in Srebrenica, but we were unable to determine
4 his residence in April 1992 or in 1991, but we know for a fact that he was
5 born in Srebrenica.
6 Q. In document 240/6 - which you prepared based on, as you say,
7 document 240/7 - in line 41, Bego Jahic, father's name, Murif, it says
8 that he was born in 1960 in Kozja Luka. Is that on the territory the Foca
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, it's not clear which document he's
12 referring to. 240/6 contains 90 names, and that's the one which the
13 witness prepared -- oh, sorry, my mistake, Your Honour, he's referring to
15 JUDGE HUNT: That's right. It's exactly the same concession the
16 witness made earlier.
17 You proceed, Mr. Vasic.
18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Sir, in document 240/6, which you prepared and based on document
20 240/7, in line 41 it says Bego Jahic, father's name Murif, born in 1960,
21 last residence, Kozja Luka, Pirni Do. Is Kozja Luka on the territory of
22 Foca municipality?
23 A. Yes, I suppose you're talking about Pirni Do. That is one of the
24 local communes on the territory of the municipality of Foca, and we were
25 able to determine, based on certain testimonies, that this person was
1 either employed or had in-laws, I cannot be precise, on the territory of
2 Foca municipality.
3 What is indubitable is that he was not born on the territory of
4 Foca municipality but in Srebrenica, and that he was deprived of liberty
5 in Montenegro. That much is known precisely.
6 Q. If it is indeed the same person as in line 106 of document 240/5,
7 why was this information about the residence of Pirni Do not included by
8 you in the other table for the person Bego Jahic?
9 A. I repeat, we are not sure that Bego Jahic in April 1992, at the
10 moment of outbreak of the conflict, resided on the territory of Foca
12 Q. Based on what, then, did you, in line 41 of document 240/6, did
13 you write "Kozja Luka, Pirni Do"?
14 A. I think it was based on the testimony of a witness with whom we
15 had worked immediately before the preparation of this list in an effort to
16 make the list complete because we didn't have complete information in all
17 cases for this list which we provided to the OTP. And if necessary, I can
18 tell you the name of this witness who provided us with this information to
19 the effect that this man had some sort of shelter or a safe residence.
20 Not permanent residence, but some sort of residence on the territory of
21 Foca municipality.
22 Q. Can you tell us the name of that witness?
23 A. Preljub Avro [as interpreted].
24 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, Tafro.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Can we then conclude that in your document which you prepared,
2 240/6, in line 41 regarding Bego Jahic, father's name Murif, you corrected
3 the name of the victim, the name of the father; you inserted the last
4 residence in 1991; and you left intact only the year of birth as 1960 as
5 indicated in document 240/7?
6 A. The last name and the victim's year of birth are the same as in
7 document 240/7. The name is changed from Brgo to Bego, one letter is
8 changed, therefore; and the father's name is changed from Murip to Murif,
9 also a change of one letter, and we did that because it was obvious that
10 it was a typographical error made either by the prison authorities or the
11 person who translated this into English and was not familiar with the
12 names and surnames common in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
13 Q. Thank you. In line 130 of document 240/5, Esad Kovacevic, it says
14 he was born in 1963; and in document 240/7 under number 98, Esad Kovacevic
15 is said to have been born in 1953.
16 A. The same as my previous answers.
17 Q. Under number 175 of document 240/5, Enes Music --
18 A. We've also discussed this.
19 Q. I'm sorry. Under number 177, document 240/5, Amir Stevanovic [as
20 interpreted] --
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name.
22 Q. The year of birth is indicated as 1972. And under number 121,
23 there is Amil Musanovic, the year of birth is 1st January 1968, and that
24 is in document 240/7. There is a discrepancy in the names and the years
25 of birth.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Before you answer that, sir.
2 Mr. Vasic, the interpreters did not hear clearly the name that you
3 read from document 177 -- I'm sorry, document 240/5, the first version of
4 that name.
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In document 240/5,
6 number 177, there is Amir Musanovic.
7 JUDGE HUNT: And then what is the second name that you read?
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The second name in document 240/7 is
9 Amil, with an L, Musanovic.
10 JUDGE HUNT: So it's the given name that changes in each case, but
11 the family name is the same. Thank you.
12 A. There is no difference here. If you look closely at number 176,
13 you will see that it says Amil Musanovic, born 1968, as indicated in
14 document 240/7.
15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I would agree with you, but you would then have to clarify how
17 come that in document 240/6, which you prepared based on document 240/7,
18 there is no such name as Amil Musanovic, but instead, under number 63 [as
19 interpreted] there is Amir, with an R, Musanovic, born in 1968?
20 A. Yes. It's possible that a mistake has been made here.
21 Q. Thank you. And in number 178 in document 240/5 there is an Edhem
22 Musanovic, born 1955; whereas in document 240/7 in line 122, Ethem, with a
23 T, Musanovic, the year of birth is 1963 [as interpreted].
24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour, the transcript
25 says 1963, and the year of birth was actually 1933. That is page 16,
1 line 17, at the end of the sentence.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
3 A. My answer is the same as in response to your previous questions.
4 There is a difference in one letter, that is, between Edhem and Ethem,
5 and a difference in the year of birth. That is true.
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Is the person's name really Edhem or Ethem?
8 A. I believe the name is actually with a D, Edhem.
9 Q. In line 61, document 240/6, prepared by you based on document
10 240/7, there is really a name Edhem Musanovic, and the year of birth
11 1933. Why, when you were correcting the name of this person, didn't you
12 also correct his year of birth, as you did in document 240/5?
13 A. I don't know why this hasn't been done. I can only say for sure
14 that the name is Edhem, and the correct year of birth is the one stated in
15 our document, on our records.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 A. If you allow me, I would like to say one thing. The document that
18 we prepared, 240/6, does not exist in our computer database as such. We
19 were only requested by the Office of the Prosecutor to make an analysis of
20 the document of the International Red Cross, and it is possible that the
21 person who did this analysis according to my instructions made corrections
22 of the names, surnames, father's names in those cases where our records
23 contained correct information, whereas the years of birth were simply
24 taken over from the document given to us by the Red Cross in the form of
25 document 240/7. And it is therefore possible that the names are corrected
1 in our document 240/6, whereas years of birth were simply copied from the
2 ICRC's document. I cannot state this for a fact, but I assume that is
3 what happened.
4 Q. Can you tell me, please, what is the purpose of your instructions
5 to make such partial corrections relating only to names and father's names
6 without correcting the years of birth?
7 A. I didn't give any such instructions. I instructed the person to
8 make this analysis of the document, and it is obvious that our database
9 contains only correct names. And when the person was doing the analysis,
10 the -- they just copied the dates of birth from the document given to us
11 by the Red Cross.
12 This original document, 240/6, does not exist as such. It is just
13 an analysis of the document originally prepared by the prison authorities
14 and handed over to us by the International Red Cross.
15 Q. Of course, sir, I suppose that the purpose of preparing this
16 document was to help my colleagues from the Prosecutor in listing the
17 potential victims, but we will move on.
18 Number 138 [as interpreted], document 240/5, Mehmedalija Sljivo,
19 born in 1966; and in line 151 in document 240/7, Mehmedalija Sljivo is
20 said to have been born in 1964. Shall I repeat it?
21 A. 238 of the document 240/5. It says here in the transcript 138. I
22 didn't understand you quite. I think there must be a mistake in
23 the interpretation.
24 Q. I'll repeat my question to make things clear. Item 238 of the
25 document 240/5 --
1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, the court reporters are complaining about
2 the speed with which you're reading these documents. You've got to
3 remember that this is fairly complicated stuff to translate and to type
4 with names and dates and things. It's not like the usual form of question
5 and answer, so please slow down.
6 A. My answer is the same as in response to your previous question.
7 You will notice in the records of the prison authorities that there is no
8 full date of birth; no day or month, only the year of birth is indicated.
9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Sir, we have gone over the discrepancies between documents 240/5
11 and 240/7 regarding names and years of birth of victims. Could you please
12 tell us, you said that the report 240/7 abounds with imprecisions;
13 however, this report contains 184 items and there are discrepancies in
14 years of birth and names in only 11 cases. Can you agree with me it is
15 hardly appropriate to use the words "abounds with"?
16 A. You misquoted me again. I didn't say that it abounded with
17 imprecisions. I rather said that there is a number of errors in that
18 list. The words "abounds with" would mean that it is full of mistakes.
19 Q. And could you please tell me with regard to these lists why, when
20 you were using all this information from the report 240/7, you didn't use
21 also the date of notification when you were filling in the rubric month of
22 disappearance for the persons listed in document 240/5?
23 A. In all these cases which refer to the KP Dom Foca, the date of
24 notification is the same: 30th of August, 1992. If you go through this
25 document, you will see that in all cases where the prison in Foca is
1 concerned, the date is always the same: 30th of August, 1992.
2 Q. I can hardly agree with you, sir. For instance, in item 1,
3 document 240/7, the date of notification is 17th June 1974 [as
4 interpreted]. In item 5, this date of notification is 15th of August,
5 1993. In item 6, the date is 31st of July, 1992.
6 A. You're right. If you allow me to answer before you go on
7 enumerating all the dates; you did not hear me out quite. I said in all
8 cases where the Foca prison is concerned. You just mentioned some other
9 prisons, not the Foca prison.
10 With regard to other prisons, the dates of notification are those
11 when other prisons, not Foca but Trnopolje, Kula, Sarajevo, Doboj, and
12 perhaps some other prisons made the notification. But if you look at the
13 items where the prison concerned is Foca, you will see that the date is
14 always the same: The 30th of August, 1992.
15 Q. Sir, in document 240/7, item 137, it says that the person detained
16 in Foca prison, the date of notification is 15th of August, 1993.
17 A. You're right, but in this case our analysis didn't show that this
18 person is missing. This person was released or, rather, exchanged. This
19 person is alive and well, thank God.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. During your testimony you mentioned that as you
21 cooperated with the Commission for Missing Persons of the Republika
22 Srpska, that you realised that some ethnic Serbs were detained by the army
23 of the federation. Do you know how many Serbs were detained in these
25 A. I'm not sure whether I can be very accurate, but the largest
1 number of prisoners, prisoners of war, are from 1994 and 1995; that is to
2 say, at the time when the legal authorities, the army of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Croat Defence Council did achieve some success
4 in the battlefield in Mount Vlasic, Ozren, Majevica, near Tuzla. At that
5 time in the prisons in Tuzla and Sarajevo -- and yes, of course, I didn't
6 mention the front line at Bihac and Bosanski Krajina. At that time there
7 were a large number of prisoners of war coming into these prisons. So
8 throughout the war, these prisoners of war were being released,
9 so it is hard to say.
10 If I were to assess what the largest number of prisoners of war
11 was at one point in time, I don't think that this figure ever exceeded
12 1200, perhaps a bit more than that. Perhaps a bit more.
13 Q. How many of these persons went missing?
14 A. According to the records of the International Red Cross, I think
15 that the number of Bosnian Serbs that spent more or less time in
16 government prisons does not exceed -- I think that it does not exceed the
17 number of ten. Perhaps it's not even that much. I'm talking about the
18 number of prisoners.
19 The number of Bosnian Serbs that continued to be missing during
20 the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina is considerably higher.
21 Q. Thank you. During the examination-in-chief, you said that your
22 records included civilians. On which basis did you come to the conclusion
23 that these were civilians only when you were compiling documents P240/5
24 and document -- and the document on missing persons from the municipality
25 of Foca, since in some cases of exhumations a number of persons, a small
1 number of persons, that is, were found wearing olive-green/grey trousers
2 or olive-green/grey socks?
3 A. I already pointed out that these records include civilian persons
4 only. As for the municipality of Foca, military losses are over 700 men
5 who were engaged in the armed forces of the Republic of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the records we have here today refer to civilian
7 persons only.
8 It is easy to explain the circumstances. You put it quite
9 well, that there's actually a negligible number of people who were found
10 wearing military boots. In a few cases there are also persons who were
11 wearing military trousers. But that can be easily explained. People used
12 what they had at hand. You have to realise that there was no
13 transportation, that people primarily went on foot and in such terrain
14 that wore out their shoes quickly, so military boots were the kind of
15 footwear that was best suited for such conditions.
16 On the basis of what I know about exhumations in the territory of
17 Foca, I think, as far as I know, that there weren't more than five cases
18 when persons were found wearing parts of military clothing or footwear,
19 just parts. So I don't think that in any case we exhumed a person that
20 was wearing full military gear, that is to say, clothing and footwear. In
21 a vast majority of cases, if you are to analyse the police reports, you
22 will see that they are wearing civilian clothes.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. During your examination-in-chief, you mentioned
24 that a person registered in document P55, that is List C in the
25 indictment, was Mujezinovic, Omir, number 18, was killed in a car
1 accident. Can you tell us when this person was killed in a car accident?
2 A. When we analysed this list, we found it strange that Mujezinovic,
3 Omir, was not in our records and was on this list. We assumed that the
4 Prosecutor has some evidence about this, that this person was at the KP
5 Dom. And as we tried to find out whether Omir Mujezinovic exists at all,
6 we found out that he was killed before the war in a car accident.
7 We do not know whether there is another person by the name of Omir
8 Mujezinovic. We think that this is Samir Mujezinovic who was really at
9 the KP Dom and who is considered to be missing from the KP Dom and who
10 has been registered as such.
11 Q. Did you check about Omir Mujezinovic outside the territory of the
12 Foca, like Gorazde, Visegrad, Bileca?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know that there were detainees at the KP Dom coming from
15 these areas as well?
16 A. I know that in 1992, a number of persons from Montenegro were
17 brought to the KP Dom in 1992, persons who did not reside in Foca before
18 that. Gorazde, Srebrenica. I am not sure whether there are some other
19 municipalities. Oh, yes, the municipality of Kalinovik. A certain number
20 of persons were brought in, either from Montenegro or from these
21 municipalities -- parts of these municipalities, rather, that were under
22 Serb force control. They were brought to the KP Dom at Foca.
23 Q. Thank you. During your examination-in-chief, you said, you said
24 that Foca was a black hole. That was the expression you used. However,
25 from the exhumation reports which I presume you handed over to my
1 colleagues at the OTP, and I got it from them, I believe that you were
2 assisted when you were obtaining various reports from Republika Srpska,
3 primarily by a person from the commission that dealt in such matters in
4 Republika Srpska, and also the assistance of the police. And I see that
5 you also enjoyed the assistance of international forces. Is that right?
6 A. Not only the assistance, I would say that we had very decent
7 cooperation with the local police and administration. However, I said
8 that Foca, until a year or two ago, had been a black hole. It indeed had
9 been that way. It was inconceivable a year or two ago to get into the
10 town of Foca. We could move about the outskirts of the municipality of
11 Foca, and we could carry out exhumations there because there was less
12 danger. There wasn't any local population. These were not populated
13 areas at all. But the closer we got to the urban area of Foca, the
14 situation became increasingly difficult.
15 During my testimony, I have already pointed out that the
16 representatives of international forces of SFOR and IPTF advised us to
17 refrain from exhumations in Foca and around Foca. You have to know that
18 it was only last year, I think, and this is eight years after the
19 liquidation of the victims and a full five years after the peace
20 agreement was signed for Bosnia, that we managed to enter the town of
22 The situation was similar in the municipality of Visegrad.
23 Before, the situation in Bratunac was similar as well. But Srebrenica was
24 different. Our teams managed to get in as early as 1996 and to do their
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. I see that the exhumation reports show that some exhumations were
2 carried out by your commission in 1997. Actually, your commission
3 attended them.
4 A. I think that the first exhumations in the territory of the
5 municipality of Foca were carried out as far back as 1996; however, in
6 that part of the municipality of Foca which now belongs to the federation
7 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, which the Dayton peace accords
8 separated it as belonging to the federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
9 In 1997, we carried out an exhumation in Previla, and as I said
10 yesterday, I think that Previla belongs to the federation of Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina. It was only in the later years and most intensively last
12 year and at the end of 1999 and mid-1999 that we slowly started
13 approaching the urban areas of Foca municipality.
14 Q. Tell me, do you know whether in the period before 1999 the
15 Commission for Tracing Missing Persons of Republika Srpska carried out
16 some exhumations in the territory of the federation; for example, where
17 there is information that there are Serb victims?
18 A. Yes. As far back as mid-1996. Our colleagues from Republika
19 Srpska came to the territory of the federation to the site of Mount Ozren,
20 to be precise, where I think 66 Serb soldiers were exhumed. Those who
21 were killed in combat action during the summer of 1995 when the government
22 forces took the area of Mount Ozren.
23 Q. What about civilians? Were such exhumations carried out?
24 A. Yes. That is an ongoing process. As I speak here, it is quite
25 possible that our colleagues from Republika Srpska are carrying out
1 exhumations of war victims right now.
2 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, bearing in mind the situation that you
3 mentioned that currently prevails in the municipality of Foca and that
4 there is full cooperation, are there any legal obstacles for the return of
5 ethnic Muslims to this area? You mentioned that during your
6 examination-in-chief; you talked about the return of such persons.
7 A. I think that there are no legal obstacles. There are obstacles of
8 a different nature. People have no place to return to. Somewhat over
9 11.000 dwellings existed in the territory of Foca, over 4.800 were
10 destroyed, and several thousand were totally destroyed. So their houses
11 were damaged or destroyed, and their livestock was taken away or killed.
12 That goes for the rural population, whereas the urban population also has
13 no place to return to, and their children would have to study a history
14 that does not involve their own people. So we can say objectively
15 speaking that not only the territory of Foca, but also throughout
16 Republika Srpska and throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina there are significant
17 obstacles in the path of the return of persons who wish to go back home.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. I have only two more questions. During the
19 proceedings before this honourable Trial Chamber, the question arose of
20 what the abbreviation AID means, A-I-D? Can you help us in this record?
21 What is this organisation involved in, the organisation with whose name is
22 abbreviated as A-I-D?
23 A. I am familiar with the abbreviation, and its full name is the
24 Agency for Investigations and Documentation. I think it was established
25 after the peace agreement was signed in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was
1 established by the highest state authority, the presidency of the Republic
2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'm not sure whether I am familiar with the
3 details involved in their work.
4 I can say that from time to time we obtain information from this
5 agency in relation to this particular part, pertaining to the state
6 commission, that is to say, that if they learn in the course of their
7 activity that there are individual or mass graves somewhere, they are
8 duty-bound, and not only them, but all other state authorities - courts,
9 attorneys, the police - they have to inform the state commission thereof.
10 This is written down in the regulations pertaining to the work of the
11 state commission.
12 Q. Do you receive information from this commission which becomes
13 accessible to them from witness statements?
14 A. I am not aware of the sources of their information. I don't think
15 that they reveal them, either.
16 Q. Can you tell me whether you know who finances this organisation,
17 this agency?
18 A. No. I absolutely do not know what are the sources of its
20 Q. My last question has to do with a TV programme that was shown on
21 Sarajevo television last year and has to do with the work of this
22 commission, and do you know whether that it was mentioned on the 9th of
23 September, 1992, in Koviljaca on the Drina River an exchange was not
24 carried out because you did not agree to have this exchange carried out
25 between your side and the Serb side? Is that information correct as
1 broadcast on this TV programme?
2 A. I am really not aware of that. I did not watch this programme.
3 There have been quite a few programmes in Bosnia-Herzegovina and abroad
4 about the work of this state commission. On the 20th of August, as I
5 mentioned, in 1992 I became a member of the State Commission for Tracing
6 Missing Persons, but I think that since that you already mentioned the
7 name of this particular site, this site certainly cannot be on the Drina
8 River. At that time, the Drina River was totally controlled by the Serb
9 forces. There was no separation line there, so I'm not aware of that.
10 There is a site that has a somewhat different name than the one
11 you referred to. That is the site of Koviljaca and that is near
12 Sarajevo. But I am not aware of the event that you are referring to.
13 Q. Do you know the name of Kasim Dranka [as interpreted]?
14 A. Let me just warn you that there is a typing mistake here. It's
15 not Dranka, it's Trnka, which is T-r-n-k-a. I know the name. This is a
16 prominent professor from Sarajevo. He was also my professor at the time
17 when I studied law. For a long time he was our ambassador, the ambassador
18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Republic of Croatia. After that, he was
19 advisor to one of the members of the presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 That's what I know about the gentleman.
21 Q. Thank you, sir.
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no
23 further questions for Mr. Masovic.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Re-examination, Mr. Smith?
25 Re-examined by Mr. Smith:
1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Masovic. Just a couple of questions in relation
2 to document 240/7. This is the document received by you at a working
3 committee conducted by the Red Cross, and it relates to the detainees
4 notified by the army of the Republika Srpska to the Red Cross authorities
5 as to people detained in their facilities.
6 You mentioned that you received the -- this version of the
7 document that we have in court today in English from a representative of
8 the Red Cross. Did the representative say to you or to anyone at that
9 meeting as to how they were notified by the army of the Republika Srpska
10 as to Bosnian Muslims being detained in their detention centres on the
11 document? Did they say whether these notifications that appear on the
12 document were in writing by the authorities, or were they oral, over the
13 telephone or in person?
14 A. I have already pointed out that in the terminology that is used in
15 the work of the working group, we constantly refer to the prison
16 authorities of one or the other or the third side. So we did not talk
17 about the army of Republika Srpska or the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in
18 the terminology that we use; we always talk about prison authorities.
19 Even nowadays when we talk to the representatives of the International Red
20 Cross about the fate of those who went missing from prisons, we talk about
21 notification from prison authorities, yes.
22 At quite a large number of the working group sessions, reference
23 was made to the fact that the representatives of the International Red
24 Cross got lists from prison authorities in writing. It was not mentioned,
25 though, who gave such a list to a delegate of the International Red Cross,
1 whether this happened at the KP Dom Foca itself or some other place. It
2 was mentioned that there was a list in writing through which the prison
3 authorities were sending notification concerning the detainees mentioned
4 in 240/7.
5 Q. In relation to this particular list of 181 names, were you
6 informed by the Red Cross whether or not they received that notification
7 of the 181 names at one time, or over a period of time? Was it a
8 wholesale notification of the 181 names, or were the notifications made at
9 different times and then this document was compiled by the Red Cross?
10 The question I have for you: Were you advised of when the
11 notifications were made, were they made together or separately?
12 A. This is not the only document of such nature that we received from
13 the International Committee of the Red Cross. We have received several
14 such documents involving a smaller or a larger number of persons. I think
15 that this document, 240/7, contains the largest number of persons so far
16 about whom notification was sent by the prison authorities.
17 I said already that we had received similar documents before, but
18 there are quite a few documents that we have been receiving on a
19 continuous basis from the International Committee of the Red Cross. You
20 will see that this does not only include the Foca prison but also a series
21 of other prisons, and the notifications were actually sent in over a
22 longer period of time, not only in 1992, but that notification concerning
23 some prisoners was sent in in 1993. And perhaps, yes, yes, perhaps even
24 in 1994. Some of them in 1994, like prisoner 40, Dedic Amir, about whom
25 notification was sent in 1994.
1 Q. So --
2 A. And his fate remains unknown.
3 Q. If I can just stop you there. But were you told by the Red Cross
4 when you received this document whether they received this notification of
5 the 181 names at one time or separate times, or were you not told?
6 JUDGE HUNT: Are we really concerned with when the Red Cross
7 received the notifications?
8 MR. SMITH: Just in relation to -- it's not of major importance
9 but just in relation to perhaps typographical errors in relation to names
10 and dates of birth. It might explain it a bit more, but ...
11 All I need is an answer to the question, Your Honour, and then we
12 can move on.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Can you answer that question, Mr. Masovic?
14 A. Yes. There is obviously a problem here, and that is why mistakes
15 appear in the names of detainees and the years of their birth. The
16 delegate of the Red Cross did not have access to the detainees
17 themselves. Had the delegate had access, he would have registered the
18 name and surname and year of birth properly, as well as all the other
19 details concerning every detainee.
20 The point here was that the prison authorities did not allow the
21 delegate of the ICRC access to the detainees in prison, that they handed
22 in their own list or perhaps even dictated a list to the representative of
23 the International Red Cross, and in this specific case it is the 30th of
24 August, 1992. So it was a list of detainees who were in prison then.
25 As I said on several occasions, the International Red Cross gave
1 us such lists.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, we've got to stop the answer. We'll come back
3 to it after the adjournment.
4 But whilst we have this adjournment, the witness, next witness,
5 [redacted], I think, has voice distortion. We would be grateful if that
6 could be organised during the adjournment so we don't have to adjourn as
7 soon as the witness arrives.
8 We'll resume at 11.30.
9 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith.
12 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, in the speed
13 that we adjourned for the break and the speed of the witness's answer, I
14 didn't notice that he in fact answered the question which really was my
15 last question.
16 JUDGE HUNT: You mean, what he was going on to say you didn't
18 MR. SMITH: That's correct.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, I'm afraid it was not the speed, it was the
20 length of the answer. We do have certain obligations in relation to when
21 we adjourn because of the court reporters and the interpreters.
22 MR. SMITH: I apologise for missing that, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Anyway, are we finished with the witness?
24 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps just before the witness
25 leaves, I would like to confirm that the request by the Trial Chamber as
1 to identifying the sources of 240/5, they would be required in writing
2 rather than the witness coming back to the Tribunal actually.
3 JUDGE HUNT: That's what I had anticipated, yes.
4 MR. SMITH: And that's the same with the Red Cross.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
6 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, thank you, Witness, for giving your evidence.
8 You're now free to leave.
9 MR. SMITH: Your Honour. If I can just mention one further
10 matter. In relation to the two detainees that --
11 JUDGE HUNT: Do you need the witness here for that?
12 MR. SMITH: No.
13 JUDGE HUNT: No. Thanks, Mr. Masovic, you may leave, then.
15 MR. SMITH: In relation to the identifications of the two
16 detainees that the Prosecution allege were exhumed, Halid Konjo and Obanjo
17 [phoen] Konjo, I would just wonder if I can ask the Defence whether they
18 still wish -- the Prosecution to produce the two witnesses that actually
19 made the identification, the two family members, of the two bodies, or
20 whether or not the evidence so far is enough in their view.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's something which surely you can discuss
22 between yourselves. They may want to consider the position, but if
23 there's any problem, then you can raise it after a convenient adjournment.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE HUNT: Now, while we're waiting for this witness with voice
1 distortion to come along, we've discovered a new trap for using this
2 particular courtroom, or a new problem with this courtroom. The system is
3 not as well set up here for voice distortion as it is in the other
4 courtrooms, so that for those who wish to hear the undistorted voice of
5 the witness, you must go to channel 7; but if you want to hear the B/C/S
6 version of anything said to the witness by the counsel, which will no
7 doubt be in English, you have to swap to number 6. So it will be going
8 from one -- either listening to the questions in English or you will be
9 changing between 6 and 7 throughout the whole of this witness's evidence.
10 I'm sorry for that. It may be another reason we can use to show that we
11 are being discriminated against for having to use number 2 courtroom.
12 The pseudonym document for Witness 249 will be Exhibit P440, and
13 it is under seal.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, before we start and everything
15 is arranged, maybe we could already enter the transcript and some other
16 documents into evidence. We had actually agreed, Defence counsels and the
17 Prosecution had already agreed.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE HUNT: Is that in relation to this witness?
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, sit down for a moment, please, sir.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And it is actually the ID number in the
24 binders, 158, which is the ICR certificate that is discussed in the
25 transcript, and it is ID 159. This is an ICRC identity card. It is ID
1 160 and 160/A which is also a certificate about his exchange and
2 detention. Then we have ID 161, which is actually the transcript from the
3 previous testimony, and ID 161/1 would be the tapes.
4 JUDGE HUNT: The videotapes.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The videotapes, yes.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection to any of those, Mr. Bakrac?
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Do any of those need to go in under
9 seal? The first one obviously will.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I think even the transcript because the
11 transcript refers to the number, the previous number.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then, all of those will be under seal, and
13 they become exhibits P158, P159, P160, P160/A, P161, and P161/1.
14 Now, we have the witness, please. Would you stand up, sir. And
15 would you make the solemn declaration on the card which the usher is
16 showing you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: FWS-249
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down please, sir.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff
1 Q. Good morning, witness. Can you hear me?
2 A. Good morning. I can hear you well.
3 Q. Witness, in front of you, you have a sheet of paper, and I have
4 some -- several questions related to this sheet of paper. There is the
5 witness number 249 on this sheet, and that's actually the number you are
6 referred to in these proceedings; and below, you see a name. Is it your
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the date underneath your name, is it your date of birth?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Under your date of birth, there is the name of a person. Is it
12 your son's name?
13 A. It is.
14 Q. Underneath your son's name are listed a group of persons with the
15 same last name. Are these relatives of you from Jelec?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When we speak about these persons during your testimony, you just
18 refer to them here on the sheet of paper.
19 Underneath these names you find four more names listed with
20 pseudonym numbers or initials. These are actually protected witnesses,
21 and if you want to refer to them in your testimony, please use their code
22 numbers or initials.
23 Witness, we do not need to repeat the evidence that you have
24 already given in another trial. I would rather just ask you some
25 additional questions.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 In relation to your stay in Jelec after the outbreak of the war, I
2 have actually one question: During this time period, did the residents
3 of Jelec organise village guards?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when did the villages keep guard; during daytime, nighttime,
6 or both?
7 A. Mostly during the night.
8 Q. And what were the guards supposed to do? Why were they there?
9 A. The role of the guards was to secure civilians at the given moment
10 if there should be an attack, because almost everyone had packed their
11 things should it become necessary for them to evacuate.
12 Q. Did you participate in standing guard?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And how often did you actually stand guard?
15 A. Maybe a couple of times.
16 Q. And just a completely unrelated question; do you know a person
17 Enver Berber, father's name Tahir, from Jelec?
18 A. I know Enver Berber. I believe Tahir Berber was his father.
19 Q. Did you see this person in the KP Dom?
20 A. I did see Enver. I think there was also a Mustafa Berber, his
21 brother or cousin.
22 Q. And are you able to tell us how old Enver Berber was,
23 approximately? Was he an elderly person or was he a younger man at that
25 A. Enver Berber was the younger brother of this Mustafa Berber who
1 was exchanged.
2 Q. And would you know his approximate age? I mean Enver's age.
3 A. At that time, he may have been 25, 26, maybe 27.
4 Q. Yes, thank you. In your previous testimony you told us that you
5 were arrested on the 25th May, 1992, and that you were detained in Room
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where in the building was Room 16?
9 A. From the entrance, the metal door which led to the courtyard, the
10 compound, you had to go 20 or 30 metres, then climb a flight of stairs,
11 and then turn left at the landing, and that's where Room 16 was.
12 Q. So that means it's on the ground floor of the building number 2 of
13 the prisoners' quarters?
14 A. Yes, the ground floor.
15 Q. How long did you stay in this room; do you remember?
16 A. In Room 16, I stayed maybe 50 to 60 days.
17 Q. Do you know to which other rooms you were transferred?
18 A. After a group of people was formed who were supposed to go to this
19 forced labour, I was transferred to Room 18, but only for a few days
20 before I was transferred to another wing of the same building.
21 Q. And to which wing do you mean, to which room; do you know?
22 A. The building itself was like the letter F, so we were in the
23 middle part. That's where Room 16 and 18 were. And this other wing where
24 we went to was slightly larger and longer.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
1 show the Witness the photo 7513. It's this. Please put it on the ELMO.
2 Q. Witness, you see here the building number 2 where you said you
3 were in 16 and 18, and can you now show us where you were transferred to
4 when you were in this group of workers? You have to point at it on the
5 ELMO, not on your screen.
6 A. That is Room 16, and the other wing is this one. I think we were
7 here. I don't know the number of the room, I couldn't tell you that.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing to building number 1
9 on the photo 7512, and he was pointing, if I -- and if I see it
10 correctly, he's pointing to the second floor.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In addition to the rooms, were you ever taken to solitary
13 confinement cells?
14 A. I was taken to solitary cells twice.
15 Q. When were you taken -- when were you taken there for the first
16 time and why?
17 A. The first time I was taken to a solitary cell was after I went out
18 for a snack. There were people there who didn't go out at all, and we
19 sometimes left for them a piece of bread or something for them out of
20 solidarity, and we would pass it to them.
21 Q. Witness, Witness, I hate to interrupt you.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is finished. You can put IT off the
23 ELMO, and you can also put off the photo. Yes.
24 Q. So please continue.
25 A. So out of solidarity, we gave what we saved to people who cleaned
1 the canteen to pass it to those who didn't go out at all, and thus I saved
2 a piece of bread to be given to [redacted]-- I'm sorry, it's not
3 [redacted]. I mean the surgeon. I can't recall -- Aziz. I wanted him to
4 get this piece of bread, and my neighbour [redacted] saved a plum for
5 him. And the guard on duty who was in the compound noticed that I had
6 something in my pocket, and he asked my neighbour what it was, and this
7 neighbour of mine, [redacted] who confessed immediately made no
8 bones about it, was not punished by being sent to a solitary cell. He was
9 returned to the metalwork shop where he usually worked, and I was sent to
10 solitary confinement.
11 Q. And who --
12 A. And sorry, the piece of bread I'd saved was for Dr. Aziz Torlak,
13 the surgeon.
14 Q. Yes. And who actually sent you to solitary confinement?
15 A. It's a guard nicknamed Pedo whose full name I don't know.
16 Q. And how long did you stay in solitary confinement?
17 A. I stayed in solitary confinement until that evening.
18 Q. So does that mean you were released on that same day?
19 A. Yes, on the same day, on the same evening I was released.
20 Q. And who released you?
21 A. I was released by the second shift, which arrived in the
22 afternoon, and every evening they counted us in our rooms. And when they
23 noticed that one person is missing from my room, they asked who it was,
24 and my mates from the room told them that I was missing and told them
25 where I was, so they came to fetch me from the isolation cell.
1 Q. You said that you were taken to the solitary confinement cell
2 twice. The second time, is that in relation to the escape of
3 Mr. Zekovic?
4 A. Yes, precisely.
5 Q. We will talk about this somewhat later during your testimony.
6 You testified previously that you had to work during your
7 confinement in the KP Dom. When did you actually start working in the KP
9 A. My first job in the KP Dom was in the metalwork shop because by
10 trade I am [redacted].
11 Q. And when did you start to work, do you recall? Do you recall how
12 much time you had already spent in the KP Dom when you started?
13 A. I couldn't say exactly the date or even the days I spent in
14 individual rooms, but I believe it was around 40 days after I was taken
15 into custody.
16 Q. You called it forced labour. Were you forced to work, or did you
17 work voluntarily?
18 A. No doubt it was forced labour.
19 Q. Why do you say that? What -- who forced you to work?
20 A. The first time I went out of the KP Dom was when the guard who was
21 in the courtyard came with a piece of paper and called out my name, and my
22 name was not -- was not written there quite correctly. And then he came
23 back again and called me out again, pronouncing my name properly, and then
24 I was taken out.
25 Q. Did other detainees start to work before you did, or were you
1 actually the first, in the first group?
2 A. No. A couple of men had already started to work in the metalwork
3 shop. Sevko Kubat, Suad Islambasic, and Karahasanovic were among them.
4 That's about the car repair shop where I was taken to work. These people
5 I've mentioned had gone to work before I did.
6 Q. And did other detainees start to work while you were already
7 working, that means after you?
8 A. I didn't understand your question.
9 Q. You mentioned those who have already started to work before you,
10 and then you said you were called out after about 40 days. Did other
11 detainees have to start working after you, that is, did they start to work
12 later than you?
13 A. There were many others who started coming to the metalwork shop to
14 work after me.
15 Q. How many detainees actually were in this group of workers
17 A. It's difficult to say, at least speaking about the metalwork shop
18 itself, because it depended on the requirements, on the job in question.
19 Some people came to work for a while, then they would leave. And there
20 was a permanent group of metal workers who were metal workers by
21 occupation; lathe operators, welders, locksmiths. That was a permanent
22 group, and this group never changed.
23 And in addition to them, there was some other people who came from
24 time to time to clean, to do a painting job, and that was the changing
1 Q. The permanent group, how many people were they?
2 A. Well, this permanent group consisted of about 10 to 12 people,
4 Q. All working in the metalwork shop?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what about the other facilities where work was conducted, when
7 you put together -- when you count also these detainees who worked in
8 other facilities, how many were there altogether? The entire working
9 platoon, how many were they?
10 A. You mean forced labour?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. I don't know. It's difficult to say because there were groups and
13 groups. You could never tell. People would often get sick from the food
14 they would get in the evening. They would have diarrhea during the
15 night, lose a lot of fluid, and would be unable to go to work in the
16 morning, so this number always varied.
17 There were people who went to the mine, who went to Kosovina, to
18 the farm. Some of them went to cut grass. So I cannot really say how
19 many people there were in each group.
20 Q. You said earlier that you were in a particular room, kept this
21 working room. That's, at least, what I understood. You were kept in a
22 particular room in the building number 1 on the second floor. How many
23 detainees were in this particular room?
24 A. The working platoon was already formed and people went to various
25 locations. There were metal workers, people who worked on the farm,
1 people who cut grass, and that was when the working platoon was already
2 established at that time.
3 Q. Would you be able to estimate the number of detainees who were
4 permanently working? If you can't, just say, "I can't."
5 A. I don't think I can tell you the figure.
6 Q. You mentioned that in the metalwork shop there were people with --
7 workers with special skills. You mentioned welders and others. Was the
8 prison administration aware of the skills of the detainees?
9 A. I think they were. At the outset, it may be a coincidence, I
10 don't know, but they really took out people who had some skills. I don't
11 know where they got their information, but the people who were taken out
12 knew how to do the job.
13 Q. What happened when you were taken out for the first time? You
14 have already mentioned that a guard called you out, and what happened
15 after that?
16 A. I was first taken to the metalwork shop, and as soon as I got
17 there I saw my neighbour, Relja Goljanin. There was also a person
18 nicknamed Dule, and people who been taken out before.
19 Q. I would like to have the steps that were taken more detailed. The
20 guard who took you out from your room, where did he go with you within the
21 compound of the KP Dom?
22 A. He took me outside the compound through the metal door and
23 straight to the metalwork shop.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
25 show the witness the photo 7470. It's the bottom photo.
1 Q. Witness, when you look at the photo, at the lower photo, what --
2 do you recognise what kind of room it is?
3 A. Yes. That's the transit room from which you enter the compound of
4 the KP Dom.
5 Q. Is the arrow pointing at the metal door that you just mentioned?
6 A. Yes, that's it precisely.
7 Q. And when you had passed this metal door, were you received by any
8 person in this passage room, as you called it?
9 A. At the very entrance from the compound, there was always a guard
10 on duty who received us immediately. He always counted the people who
11 were going out and wrote down the number in his register at the desk, and
12 here you see the desk.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the desk right --
14 left, left to the yellow arrow.
15 Q. The guard who was making those notification, into what did he
16 write who was going where? Did he have a kind of a book, or did he have a
18 A. He had a book. If somebody was taken to the metal shop, then they
19 would know who was taken to the metal shop. Records were kept in that
20 book. Also, upon returning, on the basis of the number that was recorded
21 in that book, people were sent back into the KP Dom compound.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And we can -- you can put the photo
23 away and you can switch off the ELMO. Yes, thank you.
24 Q. Was the name of the detainee actually written down in this book,
25 or just the number?
1 A. No, no, just the number.
2 Q. And was the name of the guard who took this person written down in
3 this same book, or not?
4 A. I can't really give you an answer to that.
5 Q. You mentioned that a note was also taken when you returned. Do
6 you know what was -- what exactly was written there?
7 A. The number of persons going out of the KP Dom. And then on the
8 basis of that number, the same number of people who had left had to
10 Q. And when you -- you mean the return after work, or do you also
11 mean any other returns related to breakfast or other reasons why you went
12 back during the day?
13 A. Yes, yes. Regardless of whether people were going for a snack or
14 to work, the numbers always had to match.
15 Q. Did you always work in the metalwork shop?
16 A. Yes, except that I would sometimes actually leave the KP Dom
18 Q. And when you work in the metalwork shop, how many detainees worked
19 with you usually, the permanent, the permanent metalwork shop, the
21 A. Well, approximately 10 to 12. I mentioned that already;
22 approximately that many.
23 Q. And how often did you go there for work; five days a week, six
24 days a week, or even seven?
25 A. The regular work days, except that there was no rule, actually.
1 If necessary, they took us out in the afternoon, too. If necessary, they
2 would even take us out during the night. Very often there would be no
3 electricity, so the KP Dom generator worked for a while, but then it broke
4 down. And then I or the late shift would have to go out to turn on a
5 generator of lesser capacity just so that the guards could use it.
6 Q. And the regular work days would be from Monday to Saturday, or
7 from Monday to Friday?
8 A. I can't say exactly whether it included Saturday. I can't tell
9 right now. Let's say until Friday, but I'm really not sure. I'm not
10 sure, I'm simply not sure about Saturday.
11 Q. Did you have -- besides these tasks when you had to go in the
12 afternoon or in the evenings, what were the usual working hours; from when
13 till when?
14 A. Usual working hours, like the guards, too, with the exception of
15 the things I mentioned. If it was necessary to get a car ready for a trip
16 or to turn on the generator or something like that. These are additional
17 things that had to be done.
18 Q. And the usual working hours, when -- from when to when did they
19 go? Can you tell us when you started and when you finished?
20 A. 7, 7.30, 3, 3.30. That was it, approximately.
21 Q. And how many breaks did you have in between?
22 A. We had one break. It was like a reward for having worked. They
23 called it the snack break. We would get a bit of soup and a small slice
24 of bread.
25 Q. And when did you have the lunch break?
1 A. Well, I can't say exactly. It could have been around 10 or 11.00,
2 within that span.
3 Q. Let me clarify. Maybe it's a misunderstanding. When did you have
5 A. Maybe you don't understand what I'm telling you, either. Snack.
6 I mean, first in the morning we would have breakfast and then we'd go to
7 work. And then two or two and a half hours later, I don't know exactly,
8 we would go back to the dining room and that would be, say, around 10 or
9 11.00, I'm not sure, but that is when we returned for this snack at the
10 dining room.
11 Q. Yes, and when did you go to the dining room the next time on that
12 same day?
13 A. After working hours. That would be lunch by then.
14 Q. Yes. And then you also had an evening meal. When was that
16 A. In the evening. It's very hard for me to give you the exact
17 hour. Time has taken its toll. I can't really get the exact times. 5,
18 6.00, in the early evening; something like that. Perhaps that is
19 approximately when it was dinner time.
20 Q. You already mentioned a Relja that you saw in the workshop. Was
21 he the head of the workshop? Was he your supervisor?
22 A. Precisely. He was like the supervisor of the metal shop
23 throughout our time there.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is listed as Relja
25 Goljanin as number 40 in P3.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
3 Q. And you also mentioned a Dule. Do you know the full name of
5 A. Dusan; his nickname was Dule. I really can't remember his last
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution believes that it
8 is the person Dusko Djurovic who is listed under number 61 with the
9 remark "metalwork shop," and that is actually the only name that could fit
10 to a nickname like Dule.
11 A. That's right. You reminded me just now. It was Djurovic.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
14 Q. When you worked there, were you also guarded by security guards at
15 the same time, or were only these metal workers there?
16 A. At every moment, at all times we had guards there. Sometimes one,
17 sometimes two, but there were always guards there.
18 Q. Witness, during your previous testimony you had already described
19 that you had to work on cars and trucks in particular, and we do not need
20 to repeat this evidence. Did you have to service cars belonging to the KP
22 A. That's precisely what I worked on; servicing, repairing the cars
23 of the KP Dom.
24 Q. Did the KP Dom have a smaller delivery truck, a caddy?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you describe this car, what make it was and what it looked
3 A. That's a Zastava vehicle, red. It's actually a passenger vehicle,
4 but it is also a light freight vehicle.
5 Q. Did it have a particular noisy exhaust pipe or broken exhaust
7 A. I can't say whether the exhaust pipe was broken or whether there
8 was just a hole in it. However, I can't say whether it had a big hole or
9 whether it was broken altogether, but that does lead to noise if a vehicle
10 is damaged in that way.
11 Q. And did it have -- did this particular vehicle have such a loud
12 exhaust pipe?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you know if fish was delivered in this vehicle, at whatever
16 A. I come from Jelec originally. The fishpond of the KP Dom, the one
17 that was owned by the KP Dom, [redacted], about a
18 kilometre or two away. They used to bring fish in such a vehicle, or
19 sometimes in an even bigger vehicle, it depended on how much fish they
20 wanted to deliver into town.
21 Q. Do you know how this fish was delivered in this car? Was it just
22 the fish in the car, or was it in containers? Do you know that?
23 A. Of course it was in plastic containers, with water together.
24 Q. Was it used for this purpose in the first months of your
25 detention, let's say in the year 1992; do you know that?
1 A. I don't think so. After I left Jelec, the locals from Jelec told
2 me that that fish had been released immediately, so there was no fish
3 there in the fishponds any more -- in the fisheries, rather, in Jelec.
4 Now, when they let them go, I really don't know. But at any rate,
5 there were no vehicles bringing fish any more, not at the KP Dom.
6 Q. When you serviced the cars of the KP Dom, what did this include?
7 Repairs, washing? What did it include? Can you describe what you had to
9 A. We did whatever necessary; cleaning, washing, changing tires,
10 lubrication, repairs, everything. Absolutely everything.
11 Q. Did you ever see the caddy car that you had described freshly
12 washed in the compound, and do you know if the detainees did that?
13 A. The detainees could not do that because whenever we were taken
14 out, we were always taken out together in one single group. And one
15 morning that vehicle, the caddy, had been washed, and it was there right
16 by the entrance into the metal shop.
17 Q. Did you ever find out who washed it on that day, and why it was
19 A. No, no, I don't know.
20 Q. In your previous testimony you had actually mentioned this car
21 being washed, being freshly washed. Why did this stick in your mind?
22 A. Well, because we had passed by the caddy itself, and you could see
23 that the car was wet. That's why I remember that so well.
24 Yet another thing, I already mentioned now everything that was
25 done that had to do with cars, vehicles, was done by us. Nobody would
1 ever do anything, washing, lubrication, change of tyres, whatever, so I
2 didn't understand why somebody else had done this.
3 Q. Which other cars of the KP Dom did you have to service? Do you
5 A. On one occasion, Zoran Vukovic brought in a white freight vehicle,
6 a Mercedes that belonged to Sahimpasic, Senad, I don't know the exact
7 type, and we serviced that vehicle.
8 Q. Sir, I was -- sir, I was actually referring now only to the cars
9 of the KP Dom that you serviced. You have already given the details on
10 these other cars in your previous testimony. Just the cars of the KP
12 A. They had two small TAM trucks, and a Land Rover, too. After that,
13 the engine of that Land Rover was tuned, and since it used petrol, we
14 converted it into a TAM engine. And then also an FAP 16 was there, and a
15 passenger vehicle that would come from time to time. That's also a
16 Zastava vehicle. I think it was a 128, red.
17 Later on, there was also a passenger car, a white Golf diesel.
18 These are the vehicles that come to mind in terms of the vehicles that we
19 serviced at the KP Dom.
20 Q. This Zastava car, that red one, this 128, whose car was that?
21 A. It was a red vehicle. Very often, several times, they brought it
22 for regular servicing, to clean it, lubricate it, to pump up a tyre, and
23 the people who would bring it would usually say that it was Warden
24 Krnojelac's car.
25 Q. Those people who mentioned that it was Warden Krnojelac's car, who
1 were they? Who told you that?
2 A. People who were directly involved, like Relja, some of the
3 guards. I could not remember the exact names and surnames, but this was
4 done several times.
5 Q. And did you ever see Mr. Krnojelac drive this car?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell us when you saw that, in what time period?
8 A. Well, once the late Sevko and I were taken to Brod. There was a
9 shortage of spare parts for the TAM vehicle, so we had to get some parts
10 from this vehicle in order to make it possible for the other vehicle to
11 work. And then another time he returned me from the farm to the KP Dom.
12 Q. Let us be more precise.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, yes. Sorry.
15 Q. Let us be more precise. When were you taken to Brod? Who took
16 you there, and when -- what does that have to do with the red Zastava
18 A. I've explained just now that their vehicle that we worked on in
19 the metal shop, that was a TAM 2001, and there were some spare parts that
20 were missing. They took me and Sevko up to Brod. Up there, there was
21 Ferid Krso, a forwarder who had the same kind of vehicle. By the time we
22 got there, quite a few things were taken off that vehicle, but we managed
23 to get some parts nevertheless. And then they returned us to the KP Dom.
24 Q. And were you taken to Brod in this red Zastava 128 that you
25 mentioned was the warden's car, or is this a misunderstanding?
1 A. I think the warden was with us, but I'm not sure whether it was
2 that car, the caddy, or the 128. I'm not 100 per cent sure, but the
3 warden was with us on this journey.
4 Q. What did the warden have to do in Brod?
5 A. I don't know. Relja stayed with us, and the two of us did the
6 job, and Relja waited while we did it. I don't know what the warden was
7 doing. All I know is he came later to pick us up and we went back
9 Q. Can you tell us when you also saw this -- Mr. Krnojelac,
10 Mr. Krnojelac driving this car?
11 A. Well, I really couldn't tell you now.
12 Q. And when the car was brought to you for repairing or for cleaning,
13 who brought the car to you? Who was driving it then?
14 A. Mostly mediators, go-betweens. It was never Mr. Krnojelac himself
15 who came to hand the car over to us.
16 Q. Do you know, was it an official KP Dom car or was it
17 Mr. Krnojelac's private car? Do you know?
18 A. I couldn't tell you that. I don't know. I know Mr. Krnojelac was
19 using it. Whether it was an official car, whether it was his private
20 property, I couldn't tell you that.
21 Q. You also mentioned a diesel Golf car. Who drove this car, and
22 whose car was it?
23 A. After Mr. Krnojelac left, another man came to replace
24 Mr. Krnojelac, and his name was Zoran Sekulovic. Approximately around
25 that time was when the Golf diesel appeared, and it was in the KP Dom all
1 the time.
2 Q. And after Mr. Krnojelac was replaced, did you ever have to service
3 this red Zastava car 128?
4 A. No. The white 128 -- I said it was red. It wasn't white. The
5 Golf was white. There's some confusion about this, isn't there?
6 Q. No, I thought I -- then I misspoke. I misspoke, sorry. The red,
7 the red Zastava car 128, did you ever have to service it after
8 Mr. Krnojelac was replaced?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I'm not familiar with the cars of this brand. Is it a luxury car,
11 or is it a medium car, or what class car is a Zastava 128?
12 A. It's a medium-class sedan, the medium range of Zastava's
13 production line. To tell you the truth, I specialise more in freight
14 vehicles, and I couldn't give you a classification of those smaller
16 Q. And how often did you actually have to service this warden's car?
17 A. Not very often.
18 Q. What --
19 A. It was more like regular check-ups, regular servicing, changing
20 the oil, changing the filter, filling in the oil, checking the water, et
21 cetera. The normal things you do.
22 Q. And when you say it was not often, can you give us an idea what
23 you call "not often"?
24 A. When I said "often," I mean every week.
25 Q. And "not often," would that mean every couple of months or once a
1 month? Just to get an idea what --
2 A. Maybe once in a month or once in two months approximately.
3 Because I spent a lot of time there. It's difficult to ...
4 Q. You mentioned in your previous statement that you were not paid
5 for your work, and you have already mentioned that your advantage was to
6 get this snack, this additional snack. Did you have any other advantages
7 while doing the work?
8 A. We had no special benefits apart from that hot meal, if you can
9 call that a benefit or an advantage. But within the metalwork shop we had
10 slightly more freedom, and we could sometimes get an extra pear,
11 depending on the guards. Some would let us, some wouldn't. The trees
12 were near and we could pick the fruit, but it depended on the guards,
13 because sometimes they would tie a dog to a tree and they wouldn't let
14 us. That's all the advantage we got.
15 Q. The work you had to do in the metalwork shop, was it hard work?
16 A. Our workshops are equipped with obsolete equipment and you have to
17 make an additional physical and mental effort, especially physical
18 effort. They had a lot of pick-ups for transfers of furniture, and some
19 pieces of furniture were more than 100 kilos heavy. And you had to cope
20 yourself and find a way to take them off this pick-up.
21 Then taking off tyres was very hard. You take off a tyre, then
22 you have to choose a new one, and the only choice you have is from the
23 waste dump, something that was already discarded. You fix it onto the
24 vehicle, and then a couple of days later it turns out it has a hole in it,
25 it has to be repaired again.
1 Q. Were you physically exhausted when you --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
4 Q. Were you physically exhausted when you returned to your room after
6 A. Of course. One must be exhausted after all of that, especially in
7 view of what the food was like. Of course we were exhausted. For
8 instance, this Sevko Kubat, who had a stomach ulcer, came to a stage when
9 he was totally unable to work, and he was taken to the hospital for a
10 checkup. I don't know what the doctors determined. I heard they did a
11 surgery on him, and he died later. After this operation, he was
12 reprimanded once, when he was coming back from lunch, by Savo Todovic who
13 said, "Come on, Sevko. How long do you intend to lie down and rest?" So
14 nobody really asked us whether we were actually able to work or not; we
15 had to do it.
16 Q. Did you suffer long-lasting -- did you suffer long-lasting
17 physical consequences from the hard work?
18 A. Well, to tell you the truth, after all of that, the poor
19 nutrition, the freezing - I once are had pneumonia and had to be
20 treated - lack of vitamins, lack of food, hard work, very frequent
22 Q. I was actually inquiring about the hard work only, and if that
23 caused any physical damage, let's say, back problems or something like
25 A. Yes. Yes, after I got out, I have a very bad back now. Now that
1 I am free, I even got a disability pension for that.
2 Q. And these back problems, did they develop while you were still
3 working in the KP Dom, or did they only appear after your release?
4 A. Just after I got out, I suffered from both mental and physical
5 consequences. I felt them for the first time perhaps after I got to
6 Sarajevo, ten months or so later. I had very bad dreams, nightmares. I
7 would revive -- relive the traumas I had gone through. I started feeling
8 pain in my back, and it didn't get any better. On the contrary, it
9 deteriorated from day to day. So I ended up with a disability pension.
10 I had good eyesight before I was taken to the KP Dom. Now I
11 have -- I need glasses, about four diopters strong, and also I had to
12 improve my nutrition and compensate for what I experienced there.
13 Q. Can you tell us what actually is the back problem, what causes
14 the back problem? What symptoms do you have?
15 A. Sometimes I get a stiff back which occurs very suddenly, and for
16 ten or 15 days you cannot sleep on a soft surface, you have to sleep on
17 the floor.
18 Q. Did you get medical treatment, and if so, did the doctors tell you
19 what it was that you have?
20 A. When I went abroad, I was treated in the centre for the
21 rehabilitation of survivors of torture. I also got psychological
22 treatment, and I was also given physiotherapy administered by a
23 specialist. They gave me a belt, a support for my back, which alleviates
24 the problem a little, and I was also prescribed some exercise which I have
25 to do on a daily basis. I have documents to prove all this, that I
1 underwent treatment.
2 Q. Did the doctors ever tell you what caused your back problems? I'm
3 just sticking with the back problems.
4 A. The doctors also assume it's the result of hard physical work.
5 That's what they think. And there is a parallel psychological problem as
6 far as the back is concerned. The muscles were strained and the entire
7 back bone shifted to one side. There is damage to the disks between the
8 vertebrae, and that is the -- their final word.
9 Q. Besides the metalwork shop, where else did you have to work within
10 Foca? You have already mentioned this place in Brod. Where else did you
11 have to work in Foca?
12 A. A couple of times, in fact more often than that, perhaps ten times
13 I went to the farm in the KP Dom. Sometimes I had to repair cars in the
14 town itself, a car which got stuck there and wouldn't move on. So those
15 were the times when I went to Miljevina. They would be -- they would end
16 after 10, 15, 30 days. There were three or four such trips to Miljevina.
17 Q. Let us first speak about Foca itself. When you were taken to the
18 farm or other places within Foca, were you always guarded by KP Dom
20 A. Each time we went there, we were under convoy. We couldn't go
21 there alone. We were guarded all the time. We would finish the job, and
22 on our way back we would be guarded again. So we were not free to come
23 and go as we pleased, of course.
24 Q. That is understood. But when you were within Foca, was it the KP
25 Dom guards who guarded you, or someone else?
1 A. We were guarded exclusively by KP Dom guards.
2 Q. And you have already mentioned that you were taken to Miljevina a
3 couple of times. When were you taken there for the first time?
4 A. My first trip to Miljevina was on the 3rd December, 1992.
5 Q. And what happened on this day?
6 A. On that day I was in the metalwork shop. I don't remember which
7 guard was on duty that day. He told me, "Collect your things and come
8 with me. I'm taking you to Miljevina." Of course, in such cases, you
9 wouldn't dare to ask where or how, with whom, so I just followed him.
10 After we went through the metal door and left the compound, we saw
11 a police Golf car. The driver was not familiar to me. He was a bearded
12 man, and there was another young man with him. He didn't have an arm. I
13 don't remember which of his arms was missing. They opened the trunk, we
14 packed our things, and set off to Miljevina.
15 Q. You said "we packed our things." Does that mean you were not the
16 only one taken to Miljevina on this occasion?
17 A. Yes. It was only me; I was alone.
18 Q. You said that you actually were working in the metalwork shop when
19 you were called out. Were you taken back to your room first before you
20 went to Miljevina?
21 A. No. I was taken directly from the metalwork shop to the car, and
22 the car set off to Miljevina.
23 Q. And you mentioned that there was a person with an arm missing.
24 Was this a civilian person or was it a person in uniform?
25 A. It was a civilian, in civilian clothes.
1 Q. You have mentioned earlier that whenever detainees were taken to
2 the metalwork shop, a note was written in a book. Was anything in paper
3 written down in relation to your taking to Miljevina?
4 A. At that moment I didn't notice because I was taken out of the
5 metalwork shop. I put my things in the trunk of the Golf, got into the
6 car, and we went straight to Miljevina.
7 Q. You do not need to tell us what you did in Miljevina; you have
8 already testified on a previous occasion about the details. How long did
9 you stay in Miljevina on this first occasion?
10 A. It's difficult to place things in time now. I went there three or
11 four times. It lasted for about 10, 20 days, sometimes a month, perhaps
12 even more than a month. Please don't ask me to tell you exactly how long
13 I stayed each time. But in any case, it was never under 20 days.
14 Q. And who took you back to the KP Dom when you were returned?
15 A. It was Pedo, Predrag Trivun, also known as Pedo, and Predrag
16 Samardzic. Zoran, sorry, Zoran Samardzic, I think was his name.
17 Q. Were these soldiers, or policemen, or civilians?
18 A. After I was taken up there to Miljevina, their commander was Pero
19 Elez. I was taken there on the 3rd of December. Pero Elez was killed on
20 the 12th or the 13th or the 14th of December. Then a new commander was
21 elected, and it was precisely this Pedo who took me out who replaced the
22 commander. And he was the one who took me back, and I think he was
23 accompanied by Zoran Samardzic.
24 Q. And when you arrived with these two persons in the KP Dom, to whom
25 were you handed over, and where did this take place?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. They turned me over at the entrance to the KP Dom. There is a
2 room of the guards on duty. They -- a paper changed hands. I didn't see
3 what was written there, but the -- somebody said, "Here, we are returning
4 him alive and kicking." But there was a guard, I remember, who searched
5 me and took me inside the compound of the KP Dom.
6 Q. Did the guard on duty or this other guard respond in any way to
7 this sentence, "Here, we are returning him alive and kicking"?
8 A. No, they didn't say anything. As I said, the one who was supposed
9 to let me into the compound when I was coming back from Miljevina, he just
10 searched me and let me in.
11 Q. Do you know who decided how long you would stay in Miljevina and
12 when you had to be returned? Do you know that?
13 A. I wouldn't know that, but if they tried to take me up there -- I
14 had the impression that those people up there wanted me to stay as long as
15 I could. They would say, "The people back at the KP Dom want you to
16 return, but we want you to stay." And they were actually sort of fighting
17 for me.
18 Q. How did Pedo treat you in Miljevina? How was the treatment
19 compared to, compared to the treatment in KP Dom?
20 A. I don't really know what to tell you. I had a feeling, this is
21 only my opinion -- I was afraid of everyone. Heads were rolling all the
22 time, and it was very easy to lose your head. But after a while, I had a
23 feeling that they had been told to take care what -- how they treated me.
24 That's, at least, my impression, because when I went to Miljevina the
25 first time, when I was still inside the vehicle, they told me, "You,
1 Ustasha, you're going to work in Miljevina now. Take good care and be
2 careful how you're going to work." And when I had a meeting in the
3 administration up there at Miljevina where there was Slavko Stankovic and
4 some other people, I told them, "I'll do my best, but I would not like to
5 be mistreated, please." And I have a feeling that they treated me that
6 way precisely. They sort of complied with it.
7 Q. Did Pedo Trivun, did he ever suggest that he could help you out of
8 Foca, or help you out of Republika Srpska?
9 A. In the beginning, after the first time I went out, and even the
10 second and the third time, I didn't dare because of this impression I told
11 you about. It was only the last time when we were going towards
12 Miljevina, I asked the commander, "Are there going to be any exchanges
13 finally?" And he said, "Perhaps. I'll try to get you transferred to
14 Yugoslavia so you can go and look for your family." That was his story,
15 his version.
16 Q. And when did this discussion take place?
17 A. I think that was the last time I was taken to Miljevina, and I
18 think it was immediately after that that the exchange took place on the
19 4th or the 5th of October.
20 Q. Did detainees have to work on the front lines, do you know
21 anything about that?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt
23 my learned friend, but the transcript doesn't give the year in the past
24 answer, the previous answer. It was 1994.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps just ask the question to get it agreed to by
1 the witness.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
3 Q. Was it in 1994? You said, you said the exchange took place on
4 the 4th or 5th of October 1994?
5 A. Yes, 1994.
6 JUDGE HUNT: That may be a convenient time. We'll adjourn now
7 until 2.30.
8 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Witness, before the break I had asked you --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: My microphone is on. My microphone is on.
7 JUDGE HUNT: We can't hear you.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can't you hear me? No?
9 THE INTERPRETER: We can, but not on the protected witness
10 channel. We have to switch.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, no. Normally you just take it without having to
12 switch, don't you?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Before the break, we heard you all on the
14 protected witness channel.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, can we have some assistance from the
16 audiovisual people, please.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, he is on his way. We'll try to
18 fix it as far as it is possible.
19 JUDGE HUNT: We'll just wait a moment.
20 [Technical difficulty]
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Shall I try again?
22 Q. Witness, before the break I had asked you if other detainees had
23 to work on the front lines. Can you tell us if detainees had to work on
24 the front lines?
25 A. Once a group was taken out. I don't know exactly how many
1 people. When they returned to the KP Dom, they said that they were
2 somewhere near Previla. It was in wintertime, approximately.
3 Q. Was it in the wintertime, winter 1992 to 1993, or a year later?
4 A. It was in the period between 1992 and 1993.
5 Q. And how many detainees were taken to do -- to work on the front
6 line, and what did they have to do?
7 A. I don't know. Upon their return, they would show us their hands,
8 that they were frozen, that they were swollen. I don't know whether they
9 did something else in addition to chopping firewood.
10 Q. And can you tell us the names of some of these detainees who were
11 taken to Previla?
12 A. I cannot give you the exact names. I don't know them by their
13 exact names. I know the last name of one of them is Zametica, Zametica
14 was his last name but I can't remember his first name.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, on Schedule E, there is a person
16 under 59, Ahmed Zametica.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
19 Q. Witness, do you know the detainee Saban Karup and Muharem or
20 Muhamed Alikadic?
21 A. Muhamed Alikadic and Saban Karup, I know both of them well.
22 Q. What was the profession of these two persons?
23 A. Saban Karup only worked as a driver of the KP Dom vehicle. He
24 drove our people to the forest and to cut grass, and he also brought our
25 people back to the KP Dom with the hay they would collect and with the
1 logs they would bring in. It was an FAP vehicle.
2 Q. Do you know if Mr. Karup also had to drive on front lines and
3 transport goods for the Serb soldiers?
4 A. Our people say, especially those who went to get the hay, they
5 would also go to neutral lines practically, where neither side was in
6 charge, and when those areas were practically mined. Once as they were
7 cutting grass by Celik Polje, they came in the morning to cut grass, and
8 there was a meadow below the road and a meadow above the road. They told
9 us about it later. And it so happened that they went above the road. And
10 on the next day, a Serb who came to cut grass below the road stepped on a
11 mine. It turned out to be a minefield. I don't know what happened to
12 that person. That means that Saban was also going to such terrain in his
13 FAP vehicle.
14 Q. And who told you about this incident with the minefield and this
15 driving to this what you call neutral territory?
16 A. Well, the persons who went to cut grass talked about it
18 Q. And do you recall who that was?
19 A. Oh, I tell you it's so hard to remember all these names. These
20 are just little stories, and after eight years, I tell you, it is really
21 hard to say whether Mustafa or this person or that person talked about
22 this or that or the other thing. It is really hard to tell.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the driver Saban Karup is listed
24 in Schedule E under number 33.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
2 Q. What profession did Muhamed Alikadic have?
3 A. Muhamed Alikadic was a forwarder before the war. When I only met
4 him, he had a Zastava 616, and then he got a Kamas vehicle, a truck. And
5 after selling that, he got a little Zastava. Since he got this Kamas and
6 this Zastava, I would sometimes come to his home to service his vehicles.
7 Q. Was Mr. Alikadic detained in the KP Dom, and do you know in which
9 A. Yes. I can't tell you exactly when, at which moment, but I know
10 that he ended up in the work department.
11 Q. Was there a time that he was kept separate from other detainees?
12 A. Yes. Now I'll have to give a more detailed explanation since it
13 has to do with this particular case. Do I have permission to do that?
14 Q. Yes, please.
15 A. One time they came to our metal shop, and this person FWS-144 was
16 there, and the late Sevko Kubat and I. We were ordered to pick a vehicle
17 called Furgon which was outside the compound. We were supposed to pick a
18 vehicle in order to get it ready to drive out, say, 20, 30, 40 kilometres
19 away from the KP Dom. And we were told that this vehicle had been sold to
20 someone in Montenegro before the war, and that this customer had showed
21 up, and that that is why we were supposed to prepare this vehicle to show
22 the actual number of kilometres, the actual mileage.
23 So we serviced the vehicle. We pumped up the tyres, we got it
24 into the workshop and we serviced the vehicle so that it would be in
25 proper shape so that it could leave, at least. I think we worked on that
1 vehicle for two days.
2 Oh, yes, another thing: Before that, within the KP Dom compound
3 they were looking for people who had a C-type driver's license, and that
4 was Muhamed Karup [as interpreted]. Muhamed was taken away. I don't know
5 where he was taken away. And when we finished the vehicle on that day,
6 the next day when we came back to the metalwork shop, that vehicle was no
7 longer there.
8 I don't know how long this went on. I cannot say for sure, but we
9 did not exactly know when the vehicle left and when Muhamed Alikadic
10 left. Once, as we were getting out of the dining room, it so happened
11 that I saw through the window -- the window was opened, and I noticed
12 Muhamed, and he sort of communicated with me in sign language, could I
13 send him something that he could shave with and a cigarette. And that was
14 only after some time.
15 Q. Let me, let me interrupt you here. What is a Furgon car? Is
16 it a truck, or what is it?
17 A. A Furgon, that is a freight vehicle for transporting furniture.
18 Furniture that had been manufactured, that is. So I'm talking about
19 couches, cupboards, chairs, tables, shelves, because the KP Dom, before
20 the war, had a furniture manufacturing plant.
21 Q. And this particular Furgon truck, was something written on it?
22 Had it advertisement or KP Dom sign on it?
23 A. All the Furgon-type vehicles said "KP Dom" on them. I cannot
24 quote this exactly. It said Drina or something like that.
25 Q. And you also mentioned that Mr. Muhamed Alikadic had a C-type
1 driving license. Is that a driving license for trucks, or what is
2 particularly interesting about C, that C?
3 A. Well, that means that you can drive a vehicle that involves a
4 certain number of tonnes. Luxury vehicles, passenger vehicles, are B
5 category, but I think it's all vehicles up to one and a half tonnes, and
6 all the rest is C type. Not to mention the fact that if there's a
7 trailer, then there are other categories involved.
8 Q. And you said that you saw Mr. Muhamed, you saw him in the KP Dom
9 at a window. Where in the KP Dom? On which floor, and in which
11 A. This is to the right when you look from Room 16, right at the
13 Q. You mean the top floor?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you later meet him again in rooms, and did he tell you what he
16 was doing in that time period?
17 A. After some time. I can't say exactly how long this isolation
18 lasted, Muhamed's isolation. He was returned to the room again where the
19 people who were capable to work were. I mean, those who made up the work
20 platoon. So he was returned to us again.
21 Q. And did he tell you what he had been doing while he was isolated?
22 A. Well, while he was separated out there at the isolation cell, he
23 didn't really talk about the cell itself.
24 Q. Did he tell you what he was doing, what he was doing during the
1 A. I didn't really understand your question. Could you explain it a
3 Q. Did Mr. Muhamed have to drive the Furgon truck? Did he ever speak
4 about it?
5 A. Yes, since we knew each other very well. I had returned from
6 Miljevina then. I had pneumonia. For some time I was spared, so I did
7 not go out of that room; I didn't go to work. In the meantime, Muhamed
8 himself had trouble with his stomach and sciatica. He also didn't go out
9 for a while; he didn't go out of the room, and it so happened that we
10 stayed in the room all by ourselves. And since we knew each other well --
11 although he didn't want to say, really, of his own free will, I asked
12 him. I mean, I was interested, sort of. I said, "Where have you been?
13 What happened to you?" And then he asked me not to tell anyone by any
14 means, and then he told me about this period when he was not there. What
15 he did, that is.
16 Q. What did he tell you what he did?
17 A. That he went towards the Osanica bridge, and before the curve
18 there is a fountain on the left-hand side. I don't know how to express
19 myself, whether there was a base there or a camp or something like that.
20 That's where their headquarters were. He came there with a Furgon
21 vehicle, and his task was to drive the Furgon from that base to the
22 Osanica bridge and back. However, he had to be tied up to his seat.
23 Q. You said "their headquarters." Whose headquarters; Serbs or
25 A. The Serb units, of course. I don't know which formation that is.
1 I don't know, I can't say whether it's a squad or a Corps or a company; I
2 can't really tell you that. But his assignment was to drive from that
3 place to the Osanica bridge and back, on that vehicle.
4 Q. And the Osanica bridge, is that in the direction of the -- of
5 Gorazde, of the Muslim side?
6 A. Yes, yes. Approximately that is where the separation line was,
7 sort of. It was like that bridge had been mined. I heard about that, but
8 I didn't know it for sure.
9 Q. You said he told you that he was fixed actually to the truck. Why
10 that, and what was the purpose of the entire expedition of driving forth
11 and back?
12 A. First of all, he probably had to be tied to his seat so he
13 wouldn't jump out of the vehicle and run away. That is probably why he
14 was fastened to this driver's seat. That is one thing.
15 Secondly, this drive was probably supposed to detect the BiH army
16 positions. He said himself they probably knew who was driving the
17 vehicle. He said that quite a few times they would hit the region below
18 the road, below the vehicle. Often the -- he said that he would see a
19 bullet hit a rock or something like that.
20 Q. Does that mean the truck was shot at from the Muslim's position?
21 Is that what you say?
22 A. I think it was shot at. I don't know whether they were shooting
23 at it in order to hit it or just like that, but even Muhamed couldn't
24 tell, but knowing that there are snipers and things like that, had they
25 wanted to shoot him, they could have because it was not, it was not a
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 question of great speed or something like that. Especially if you're
2 driving backwards, you can't drive very fast. But the vehicle could not
3 make a U-turn in the middle of the road and then drive back in the forward
4 position, so it had to be driven backwards.
5 Q. Did Mr. Muhamed actually transport something, or was the car
6 empty? Did he mention that?
7 A. He didn't say anything to me about that.
8 Q. Was there yet another driver in the KP Dom? Do you know a Murid
10 A. Murid Islambasic? I knew him well. However, when he left and in
11 which direction he left, I really don't know. I only saw him after the
12 exchange in Sarajevo.
13 Q. Was he a driver?
14 A. Yes, a driver. A driver who delivered bread all over the town of
15 Foca before the war.
16 Q. And when you met him afterwards, after your release, did he tell
17 you what he actually had to do, where he had to drive during the war?
18 A. After being taken out of the KP Dom, for a while he was a
19 minesweeper. He did not tell me about the details, he just told me that,
20 after he left the KP Dom, he was a minesweeper for a while.
21 Q. What do you mean by a minesweeper?
22 A. Well, it means that if a section of a road is not safe, then of
23 course you'd be given a vehicle to go ahead. And then if that section of
24 the road had been mined, then everybody knows what will happen; you're
25 going to be the one who's going to get the mine, not those who are behind
2 Q. And that is what Mr. Islambasic told you he had to do during the
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the person Murid Islambasic is
6 mentioned under Schedule E, number 28, while Mr. Muhamed Alikadic is not
7 mentioned in this schedule.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, thank you.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
10 Q. Witness, on the list in front of you there is the person with the
11 code number 77. Did he have to work? Was he part of the working
13 A. Yes. The code is FWS-77.
14 Q. Did this person have to work all the time while he was detained,
15 or can you tell us the time periods while this person worked?
16 A. At the very beginning, perhaps during the first two months, he did
17 not leave the KP Dom. And then, I don't know, he got involved in all
18 kinds of work like work at the kitchen, work at the metal shop, work in
19 the forest, work in the farm, work on cutting grass. That is basically
20 the work he did.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
22 show the witness Schedule E, and actually the only purpose -- I don't want
23 to enter this in particular into evidence, the only purpose why I want to
24 use it with this witness is when I pronounce names I may mispronounce
25 names and therefore it's important that the witness can actually see the
2 Q. Would you please open this Schedule E, and I will refer you to
3 certain names and ask you questions about certain people on this list. We
4 do not speak about all names because a lot of names have already been
6 If you look at the person listed as the first person, Uzeir
7 Aganovic, did he have to work in the KP Dom, and if you know, in which
9 A. He worked all the time. Let me say, even now, I cannot tell you
10 about individual persons, when they started to work. But I know this
11 person well enough, and I know for sure that he had to work.
12 Q. And the person number -- listed at number 2, Mustafa Ahmetkadic,
13 was he also in this working group?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. We can jump the next two persons because they have already spoken
16 for themselves. Number 5, Muharem Bacvic, was he also a worker, a member
17 of the working group?
18 A. You didn't really read it out correctly.
19 Q. Yes. That doesn't surprise me. What is the correct ...
20 A. It's Muhamed Bacvic -- Muharem.
21 Q. Yes, and did he work?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And number 6, Adil Balic?
24 A. I'm not sure. I didn't know everyone.
25 Q. Okay. If you don't know, just tell us you don't know.
1 And number 7, Mustafa Barina?
2 A. Yes, he worked.
3 Q. And number 8, Omer Bavcic?
4 A. I couldn't say for sure.
5 Q. And number 9, Sufin or Sefkija Becirbasic?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Number 10, a certain person Berberkic, but that's not
8 Dr. Berberkic. Do you recall any Berberkic, a worker?
9 A. I don't know who that could be.
10 Q. And number 11, Dzafer Bojandzija?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What is the correct --
13 A. Dzafer.
14 Q. And what is the correct last name?
15 A. I think Bojandzija is his last name.
16 Q. Number 13 now, Izet Causevic, did he work?
17 A. There were people who did a little work within the compound,
18 especially towards the beginning when the working platoon had already been
19 established and completed. There was work in the mine, work on the
20 farm, in some other areas and sites. And then some additional people were
21 pulled out to do odd jobs, and I think he was one of them.
22 Q. And number 16, the person -- we do not mention his name, this
23 person number -- on position 16?
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's actually the Witness 76.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
2 Q. You don't have this person on the list, Witness. You just
3 shouldn't mention the name. You see the person listed under number 16.
4 Did he work? Was he a member of the working group?
5 A. I think this person was known to go out to work as well.
6 Q. And number 17, Mujo Dudic, do you know if he worked and what he
8 A. He worked mainly as a cleaner in the administrative building, as a
9 maintenance worker.
10 Q. And person number 18, Safet Dudic?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. And number 19, Rasim Dzubur?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Yes, he worked; is that what you mean?
15 A. Yes, he did.
16 Q. And number 20, Asim Gogalija?
17 A. I'm not sure.
18 Q. We can jump, sir, the following people. We can go to number 25,
19 Munib Hadzic; did he belong to the working group?
20 A. Yes, at the beginning.
21 Q. What does it mean, "in the beginning"? When did he stop working?
22 When did he stop working?
23 A. I don't know exactly when an exchange took place which was a real
24 exchange. I don't know whether it actually went through, but there was an
25 exchange when a lot of people left, and Munib Hadzic was one of them.
1 Q. And do you know when, approximately, this was?
2 A. I couldn't tell you the date or even the month. All I remember
3 is, it was summer, and I remember when we were leaving the metalwork shop,
4 the bus had already been waiting in the front of the KP Dom, and I said
5 good-bye to Munib. I don't remember the date or the exact month.
6 Q. Can you tell us the year? Was it in 1992, or later?
7 A. I think it was in 1992.
8 Q. And the person listed under 27, Fehim Isanovic, what about him?
9 A. If it's the Fehim I have in mind, he was a house painter. His
10 nickname was Cowboy. I don't know if you're talking about the same
12 Q. Yes. Did this Cowboy, this painter, did he have to work?
13 A. The Fehim I know, nicknamed Cowboy, he worked. He was a house
14 painter by trade, and he worked. He did the jobs he was qualified for.
15 But I think the other Fehim's last name is Dedovic, and I cannot really
16 say for sure about him. I just remembered this.
17 Q. We have already talked about the next person. The person number
18 29, Suad Islambasic, did he have to work?
19 A. At the beginning, he was one of the first men to be taken to work
20 in the metal shop, and he worked for a while, and then later there was an
21 exchange - at least it was said to be an exchange - and that's when Suad
22 Islambasic left.
23 Q. And do you know when that was? When did this happen, this
25 A. It was after working hours. It was a summer day. We had gone to
1 lunch and come back from lunch, and then somebody came with a list and
2 called out a certain number of people, including Suad Islambasic, and he
3 was taken away in the afternoon.
4 Q. And do you know in which year this took place? You said summer.
5 Which year?
6 A. I can't be certain 100 per cent, but I think it was 1992.
7 Q. And the next person, number 31, is a Karahasanovic. Do you --
8 A. I think they were taken to that exchange together.
9 Q. Do you know the first name of Mr. Karahasanovic?
10 A. I don't know his real name. He was a haulier. But everybody
11 called him Karas or Karasi.
12 Q. I just see that I have actually jumped one name. Number 30, Atif
14 A. Yes, Atif. He was in my room.
15 Q. Did he have --
16 A. He worked as well. He did many jobs, many kinds of work in the
17 forest. He also cut grass and so on.
18 Q. Do you know what profession he had?
19 A. I'm not sure. I think that he was a lawyer in the cooperative.
20 Q. The next person I would like you to look at is the person listed
21 under 35, Rasim or Asim Krkalic?
22 A. I don't know. I didn't know that person well enough.
23 Q. Yes. And the next one, number 36, Faruk Krecnic?
24 A. Same here; I couldn't say with any certainty.
25 Q. Yes. We have already spoken about Mr. Kubat. 38, Kukavica.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know if he worked and what he worked?
3 A. I don't know. I know Goran, he was a driver at the health
4 centre. His nickname was Gose or Gosi. I couldn't say exactly when he
5 left and what became of him.
6 Q. And did he work while he was detained in the KP Dom? Do you know
8 A. I couldn't really say.
9 Q. And the number 42, Maljanovic, did you know a person Maljanovic,
10 and did this person work?
11 A. There were two men with the last name Maljanovic
12 Q. Yes. And what were their first --
13 A. Yes, on the second page I see the name of one of them, Ramiz, and
14 the other one was Asim. And here in my paper I have both of them, Rasim
15 and Asim Maljanovic
16 Q. And did both of them have to work? Do you know that?
17 A. They did. I'm sure both of them did.
18 Q. And number 44, Sacir Muratovic, was he a member of the working
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. And the person 45, Junuz Pecelj?
22 A. I must tell you one thing; why I cannot remember some people from
23 this work platoon. Some people were brought from the Herzegovina front
24 line, ten or 12 of them, and they were -- they joined the group, and I
25 believe that this person you mentioned, Sacir, was one of them. There are
1 some people whose names I cannot remember, and I think this Junuz is one
2 of them.
3 Q. And the person 46, Suljo Pijadzer, is he also a member of the
4 working group?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the next one, number 47, Januz Pule?
7 A. I don't remember.
8 Q. And the person 49, Taib Reko, was he in the working group?
9 A. Yes. We had worked together for the same company, so I know him
11 Q. Where did he work? In the KP Dom, I mean. Do you know that?
12 A. He worked within the compound. He worked also in Miljevina. It
13 depends. Sometimes groups changed. Their composition was not exactly
14 fixed. Sometimes the group which normally worked elsewhere went to
15 Miljevina. So this changed sometimes. But he was in the work platoon, I
16 know that.
17 Q. And the person number 50, Ifet Sahovic?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. And the next one, 51, Ramiz Salaka?
20 A. I know the man well. He was taken to work in the mine, and he was
21 brought in later, a while after most of the other detainees.
22 Q. And the number 52, Dzevad Cosovic?
23 A. Dzevad Sosevic you mean? Yes. He was in the work platoon.
24 Q. And the person listed under number 53, Ramiz Sundo?
25 A. Ramiz Sundo was also in the work platoon.
1 Q. And now I have to clarify. We had spoken about a Reko Taib and he
2 is listed here also under 54. What is the first name and what is the last
4 A. I'm afraid it's not the same person.
5 Q. Yes. Can you tell us 54, Taib Reko, who is that, then?
6 A. I know Taib Reko who worked with me in the same company. I don't
7 know what they put first, the first or the last name. There was another
8 Reko who was a driver at Perucica, and the two were relatives. I don't
9 know if this makes sense.
10 Q. Yes, but I have to clarify.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Microphone.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, yes, sorry.
13 Q. I have to clarify. It makes sense, but I have to clarify. The
14 driver, Taib Reko, what was his first name, and what was his last name?
15 A. Reko is the last name, and Reko is the other man's last name,
16 too. But I don't think their first names are the same, the two persons
17 we're talking about.
18 Q. Yes. And Reko, Taib Reko the driver would then be --
19 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, it's not Taib Reko, its's just Reko. It's
20 somebody else with a different given name who is the driver. That's what
21 he said earlier on, you see.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, I understood just the other way around.
23 Q. The other person, Reko, what was his first name and what was his
25 A. The person who worked with me, who used to work with me, Taib
1 Reko, he -- his job in my company was to set work norms. And there is
2 another person by the name of Reko who worked in Perucica as a driver, and
3 I don't know his given name.
4 Q. Yes. And while the --
5 JUDGE HUNT: Microphone.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
7 Q. And while Mr. Reko, Taib Reko, what did he work while he was in
8 the KP Dom? Do you know that?
9 A. This Taib Reko did work, and he sometimes worked even in
10 Miljevina. The one who used to work in the same company as I did. And
11 the other one chopped wood within the compound of the KP Dom. Maybe he
12 went outside the compound sometimes, I don't know that, because they would
13 shift people from one job to another. That's why I cannot testify about
14 this with any certainty.
15 But it is certain that there were two persons named Reko. One of
16 them is an acquaintance of mine. On one occasion he got hurt and he was
17 spared from work and remained in his room for a while. And about the
18 other man, all I know is that he chopped wood within the compound of the
19 KP Dom most of the time. Whether he went outside and when, I cannot
20 say that.
21 Q. Yes. And now let's move on to number 56, Nusret Teletovic.
22 A. I don't know about that. I don't know enough.
23 Q. And number 57, Aziz Telo?
24 A. I know. He worked and he did various jobs - grass cutting, other
25 jobs - as required.
1 Q. And 58, Mustafa Telo?
2 A. That's his father. The same answer.
3 Q. Yes, thank you. About the other people, we have already spoken.
4 Let us move on to the day that Mr. Zekovic escaped and the
5 consequences that it had for you.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we are talking now about the
7 incident 5.21.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
10 Q. When was it noticed that Mr. Zekovic was missing?
11 A. Ekrem Zekovic, it was noticed he was missing after working hours
12 on that day. It so happened that there was no one in the compound. I
13 don't know how it came about, but there was no one. It was raining. And
14 when at the end of the day we washed, we left the working area and got
15 together in the locksmith's shop, and after a while somebody noticed that
16 Ekrem was missing.
17 We were guessing what could have happened, whether the guard had
18 taken him out or not. Nobody could explain why he wasn't there. And then
19 there appeared a vehicle in front of the gate, and a guard came out. We
20 knew straight away what it was about. When we were taken into the KP Dom,
21 we were counted immediately. And even the guard on duty at the time
22 wasn't sure whether perhaps Zekovic had been taken into the compound to do
23 something. And they said if he showed up, he should report.
24 However, it was established that he was not in the compound
25 either, and then it was finally decided that he was missing.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Who found out that he was missing? Do you know which guard was
2 involved or which other staff member?
3 A. I said that at that moment when we got together within the
4 compound on the territory of the KP Dom, it so happened that there was no
5 one. And we within our group noted that Ekrem was missing. And then we
6 heard a siren, and one of the guards came up to us and we told him that
7 Ekrem was missing.
8 Q. And what happened after it was noticed by the prison authorities
9 that Mr. Zekovic was actually missing? What happened?
10 A. As soon as we reported that Ekrem Zekovic was missing and the
11 guard on duty established that he was not in his room, chaos reigned and
12 panic. All of us who worked in the metal shop had to go out, and we were
13 taken to the metal shop.
14 And we were put under pressure to tell where he was. I believe to
15 this day that no one actually knew. That's what we told them. And I
16 think we told the truth. We didn't know. And then they started harassing
17 us, slapping us, kicking us, threatening us within the compound of the
18 metal shop itself.
19 Q. When you say "they", who harassed you, kicked you, slapped you, or
20 threatened you?
21 A. When Ekrem Zekovic escaped, there was an alert. Everybody was on
22 their feet. He had to be found. All the guards were on their feet, up
23 and running.
24 Q. Do you recall who threatened, kicked, or slapped you? Who of the
1 A. Nobody slapped me personally, but it happened to other people.
2 Asim Maljanovic was beaten by some people. I cannot tell you because it
3 was a hassle all around. They told him to go down on his knees and then
4 they hit him.
5 And then the person FWS-210 was harassed so badly that he told one
6 of the guards, Vlatko, for Christ's sake, take this rifle and kill us, but
7 I really cannot tell you where Ekrem Zekovic is.
8 And then he said, the same person, FWS-210, said a bullet has to
9 be earned. There are other methods.
10 Q. This guard Vlatko, who is what? Do you know the last name of this
12 A. Dates, names, and surnames are my weak point. Unfortunately, that
13 is one of my weak points in life. Sometimes I remember the names,
14 sometimes I remember the surname, then I remember the nickname; things
15 like that.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, there's only one Vlatko among
17 the guards, and that's actually Mr. Vlatko Pljevaljcic, and he's
18 under number 35.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
20 A. [redacted].
21 JUDGE HUNT: [redacted]
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE HUNT: That statement better be redacted itself, but it
4 would be, I think, unwise to use that particular pseudonym.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Was anybody of the senior KP Dom staff present? Let me be more
7 precise: Was Mr. Savo Todovic and was Mr. Rasevic present when you were
8 slapped -- not you personally, but you the detainees, were slapped and
9 threatened in the metalwork shop compound?
10 A. Well, I cannot say for sure, but it was basically all the guards
11 who were there. As far as I can remember, Mr. Savo Todovic and Rasevic
12 appeared in the KP Dom itself. However, I can't say for sure who passed
13 behind us as we were lined up at the metalwork shop when Boro Ivanovic
14 came. I don't know who escorted him because they went behind us, and they
15 went to tour the metalwork shop, that compound, too.
16 After having completed this tour, he also passed behind us and
17 said, "What were you guys waiting for? Why didn't you escape, too?" I
18 don't dare say who it was that was escorting Boro Ivanovic, who else was
20 Q. What was Boro Ivanovic's position; do you know that?
21 A. I don't know. Allegedly some kind of a security man. I don't
22 know. I really don't know his exact point. Please don't take my word for
23 Boro Ivanovic's exact position.
24 Q. When you saw him, what was he wearing?
25 A. A uniform, camouflage uniform.
1 Q. How did the guards behave towards him?
2 A. Specifically Boro Ivanovic, you mean? I don't know. They were
3 very angry. They were really mad because they had been searching all
4 around. They went to look for him by the river, and it was raining that
5 day. They were all wet, so they were really, really angry.
6 So, I mean, how could they behave? But I think that what Boro
7 said -- maybe, maybe; this is just my conclusion -- maybe he was holding
8 it against these guards, that they were not guarding people properly, so
9 how come Ekrem Zekovic managed to escape?
10 Q. What did he actually say that you came to the conclusion that he
11 was holding it against the guards?
12 A. I mean, what he said as soon as he came up to us, when he said,
13 "What were you guys waiting for? Why didn't you try to escape, too?" I
14 mean the very sense of what he said, it meant something, didn't it?
15 Q. Did Boro Ivanovic -- did you hear Boro Ivanovic say something to
16 the guards?
17 A. No, because he only said that when he was next to us, and then he
18 got out of the metalwork shop area.
19 Q. And you mentioned that you were threatened while you were lined up
20 there in the metalwork shop compound. What were you threatened?
21 A. Well, there were threats. I don't know, all sorts of threats.
22 Afterwards, when Boro Ivanovic left, I think, I think that after that
23 people were transferred to the administration building to this transit
24 room. That's what I heard it was called.
25 Q. This transit room, where was it?
1 A. Behind the room, the office where the guard on duty was, at the
2 entrance into the KP Dom.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
4 show the witness the floor plan 6/1 on the ELMO. Yes, please.
5 Q. Are you able to point out to us the room that you just mentioned?
6 Maybe we start by please show us the entrance from the street, the
7 entrance to KP Dom from the street.
8 A. Yes, that's the entrance.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the entrance.
10 Q. And then is this room that you just mentioned, is it to the left
11 or is it to the right, and can you point it to us?
12 A. In relation to the entrance, it's on the left-hand side. There a
13 few steps, and this is where a window is and the room where the duty
14 guards are, and behind this room where the guards on duty are, it's that
15 room. I think it's that room right behind where the guards on duty are.
16 Q. Can you?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Microphone.
19 Q. Can you put the pointer on this room because
20 we hear you a little bit later, the translation, and leave it there.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the fourth room
23 counting from the left end of this building.
24 Q. Thank you. Yes, thank you. Were you -- were all of you taken to
25 this room?
1 A. The entire metalwork shop was then taken to that transit room.
2 Q. And --
3 A. Perhaps I'm going to tell you something that's a bit absurd. At
4 the very entrance of -- into the KP Dom, there were some threats, too.
5 Perhaps I'll confuse two persons, Rasevic and Savo Todovic. There is this
6 security gadget that shows metal objects, and he hit it, and he said,
7 "I've got two sons. I swear by all I hold dear to me I'm going to kill
8 all of you and then I'll kill myself," and then he hit it.
9 Now that is where the confusion is. I don't know whether it was
10 one person or the other person. You know, you get a bit panic-stricken as
12 Q. But if I understand you correctly, it was either Mr. Rasevic or
13 Mr. Todovic who said that, who threatened you in this way. Is that how
14 we should understand you?
15 A. Yes, yes. I think it might have been Rasevic rather than Todovic,
16 but I'm not sure, actually.
17 Q. And were you beaten while you were in this -- you personally and
18 the other detainees, were you beaten while you were in this transit room
19 or on the way to the transit room?
20 A. It was only on our way to the transit room. And then we got into
21 the transit room and then we were lined up against the wall. There were
22 a few guards there. Savo Todovic was there. He took a rifle from one of
23 the guards. He ordered Ramiz Milanovic to lie on the floor on his
24 stomach. He cocked the rifle. He ordered him to lie down, and he put the
25 rifle on the back of his head and said that he would count to ten. And he
1 told the other guards to move away so that nothing would spray them. And
2 indeed, the countdown started.
3 Then somebody got in from the hallway, and said "Savo, there's
4 somebody on the phone for you," so he went out. And this person who had
5 said that said,"Listen, you guys, you are hiding this one Ekrem Zekovic,
6 and can't you see that you're all going to get killed?"
7 After that, we were ordered go to the other building where Room 16
8 is. As we were taken away, again, there was a bit of slapping around,
9 kicking, even in the halls of this building.
10 Q. Were you afterwards detained in an isolation cell in this -- in
11 the basement of this building?
12 A. Well, no. It's not a basement. It's a ground floor. I mean, the
13 ground floor is on the ground. So people were taken out individually,
14 brought back individually, interrogated, threatened, things like that,
15 individually. Then perhaps only after midnight -- I don't even know what
16 time it was. We were exhausted. We had suffered such a great deal. We
17 somehow managed to calm down a bit in this one isolation cell.
18 Q. Were all of you in one isolation cell?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Were you beaten and questioned separately?
21 A. Personally? From day one until the last day before I was
22 exchanged, nobody ever interrogated me. Nobody told me why I was brought
23 into custody, but nobody hit me, not even slightly, ever.
24 Q. We are talking about this situation in the isolation cell. We are
25 not talking about the other time.
1 A. Specifically, yes, yes, yes. Yes, I'm telling you quite
2 specifically about this particular case. I was not interrogated.
3 Q. And the others, the other members of the work -- the metalwork
4 shop, were they beaten on the ground floor in or in front of the isolation
6 A. No, no, no. They were never beaten, really. This was just a tiny
7 bit of beating, just a slap or two, a kick or two. But as for real big
8 beatings, I think that they were administered individually. The people
9 were taken out for beatings like that.
10 Q. On this occasion as well, in relation to the escape?
11 A. I didn't really understand your question at all.
12 Q. The question is: Was anybody severely beaten in relation to the
13 escape of Mr. Zekovic? Not other occasions.
14 A. Well, I think that [redacted] was beaten. Then, I don't know,
15 Mustafa Berber, people like that. I can't remember now. Spirjan, Sefik,
16 also in the hall, he was punched in the stomach a few times.
17 Q. Do you know the person who's listed as number 73 on the sheet in
18 front of you? Was he also involved in this?
19 A. Yes, he was there too.
20 Q. What happened to him, and why was he there?
21 A. I can't tell you for sure why he was brought into custody, but he
22 was there with us. And apart from our isolation cell, all of us who were
23 brought from the metalwork shop, others were brought to other isolation
24 cells. We found out about that only after we got out, that they brought
25 people from rooms to the other isolation cells.
1 Q. What happened after Mr. Zekovic had been captured?
2 A. Well, it was a bit hard to take psychologically and in terms of
3 food and sleep. Everybody would come. Everybody would bring pressure to
4 bear, thinking that somebody knew. And I don't know, I think it was the
5 next day. I don't know what time it was. During the night, actually,
6 Savo Todovic himself said, "I'm going to show you Ekrem Zekovic dead or
7 alive. Not even a bird can leave Republika Srpska or come into it, let
8 alone Ekrem Zekovic." And that's exactly the way it was. The next day
9 they took room by room out, and that's how they took us out, too, and
10 showed us Ekrem Zekovic.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
12 show the witness the photo 7510. It's this, and it has to be on the ELMO.
13 Not so close. A little bit wider. Yes, thank you.
14 Q. Can you show us where Mr. Zekovic was when you saw him on that
16 A. The isolation cell is here. We were taken down. We lined up
17 here. Practically all the guards were there. Among them was Ekrem
18 Zekovic. This is the area there, approximately.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the area left
20 from the tree which has the number "2" on it.
21 Q. And where were you?
22 A. We were over there by that wall there.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at this wall on the
24 left-hand side of the photo. Thank you, that's enough.
25 Q. What did Mr. Zekovic look like when you saw him?
1 A. He was really depressed. His head was hanging down. Practically
2 all the guards were there, and Savo himself walked up and said, "As I
3 told, you, I'm going to show you Ekrem Zekovic dead or alive." And he
4 pulled his head up and said, "See? He's all there, all in one piece."
5 That was his comment, more or less.
6 Q. Was Mr. Krnojelac present on this occasion?
7 A. I'm not sure. I can't say for sure, although practically everyone
8 was there, but I don't dare say whether Mr. Krnojelac was there or not.
9 I'm not sure.
10 Q. After, after Mr. Zekovic had been captured, how long did you
11 continue to be in the isolation cell, you and the other members of the
12 work group?
13 A. After being taken back to the isolation cell, some kind of
14 punishment followed. He lined us up in an isolation cell, and then he
15 started meting out punishment. Somehow we were standing in a circle, and
16 then he said 10 days, 15 days, 20 days in solitary confinement. I was
17 back there, Sevko Kubat and I were, and I just thought if he goes on this
18 way, more and more punishment, only God knows how many days I'm going to
19 get. However, somehow the punishment started going down after a while, so
20 I don't know what happened, but no punishment was meted out to me
22 Q. But how many days -- does it mean you could continue to the room
23 immediately, or did you have to spend days in the isolation cell?
24 A. No, no. Isolation exclusively, and practically all of us from the
25 metalwork shop were in one room. It's a small room. I don't know its
1 exact dimensions, I just know it's pretty small, especially for such a
2 number of people. And then we started getting less food. That's the way
3 it was, day in, day out.
4 Q. And you said that he lined you up and he meted out punishment.
5 Who is "he"?
6 A. Yes, Savo Todovic.
7 Q. And how many days did you spend in the isolation cell as a
8 consequence of Mr. Zekovic's escape?
9 A. I can't tell. I can't say exactly how many days. I know that a
10 few persons allegedly went out for an exchange directly from that room,
11 that so-called solitary confinement cell. And then after a certain number
12 of days, five, six, seven days, I can't say exactly, they called me and
13 Sevko Kubat to the workshop again because they needed a vehicle to leave
14 once again. 16, 20, and it had to be prepared for the trip. And that is
15 how the two of us got out of the solitary confinement cell on that day.
16 Q. Let us now talk about some exchanges. You had already mentioned
17 in your previous statement here you have described how people disappeared
18 in exchanges, and I don't want to discuss all these details again, just a
19 few particular incidents.
20 Were former workers from the Miljevina mine detained in the KP
21 Dom? Do you know?
22 A. Former workers of the mine. There might have been some workers
23 from the brown coal mine in Miljevina, too, but how many, I really don't
25 Q. Were any detainees taken out by Pero Elez at one point in time?
1 A. First of all, I think that was the first exchange. It was the
2 first exchange, sort of. I can't remember the exact date. I keep going
3 back to this. It's like a disease; dates, names, things like that. But I
4 think that was the first exchange.
5 I think he entered the compound at the very entrance gate, and he
6 took some people away as if it were for the mine. I know three of them:
7 Kemo Niksic, Dzemo Niksic, and Salko Sljivo. There were others as well.
8 So I think that that was the first exchange, sort of. I mean,
9 that they were taken out to work in the mine.
10 Q. You said you cannot give the exact date. Was it in the period
11 while you were already working, or was it before that, that is, in the
12 first 40, 50 days?
13 A. I think it was before I started going out to the metalwork shop.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And with the help of the usher, I would like
15 you to --
16 JUDGE HUNT: I think that rather than do that, we will take the
17 extra minute off.
18 We'll now adjourn until Monday morning at 9.30.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of
21 March, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.