Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5382

1 Thursday, 3 May 2001

2 [Open Session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Due to an urgent personal matter, Judge Mumba

10 unfortunately cannot be here today, so we'll proceed pursuant to Rule 15

11 (B).

12 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I don't

14 know whether my learned colleague completed what she had to ask yesterday

15 because I think we interrupted her at some point while she was questioning

16 the witness.

17 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you.

19 WITNESS: MILENKO DUNDJER [Resumed]

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Cross-examination on exhibit by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dundjer.

23 A. [English] Good morning.

24 Q. In relation to the document 92-1, I have just one more thing to

25 ask you. The date of this document is actually the 28th of August, 1992,

Page 5383

1 and that is more than two months after the actual travelling it's dealing

2 with. And I just want to refer you to the Exhibit 93 and to the remarks

3 in this Exhibit 93 where it says -- in the first part of the remarks, it

4 says, "Protect this travel order from damage. Immediately after your

5 return and at the latest within three days, calculate travel expenses and

6 submit them to the accounting department for reimbursement or return."

7 Do you see that? It's part of the form. It's on the second page

8 of the form. There is this chapter Remarks under this calculation form.

9 There is "Remarks," and that is where this part that I just read out --

10 did you see it?

11 A. [Interpretation] Are we talking about document 93?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Above "Warden," is that the paragraph that you're talking about,

14 with respect to the fact that a written report should be sent in within

15 three days upon return from the business trip; is that what you mean?

16 Q. Yes, that is what I read, just that after three days at the

17 latest, the expenses should be claimed. Do you have no explanation why in

18 this case it is the 28th of August, 1992, that the reimbursement is

19 actually paid?

20 A. For me personally, a logical explanation would be that perhaps at

21 the point in time, they didn't have the money to reimburse so that they

22 left it till a later date. That is my only logical explanation.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no objection

25 against entering document 92, 92-1, 93, 94, 94-1, and 95, but we have

Page 5384

1 questions in relation to some two other documents relating to travelling.

2 JUDGE HUNT: There was some payment, the witness said he had a

3 document BR 248/8 which showed a payment. It's dated the 28th of August,

4 1992. Is that one of the ones you --

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. That's actually 92-1.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, I see.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's the document we were talking about.

8 JUDGE HUNT: So far I think you've nominated -- you have no

9 objection to all of the documents presently being tendered which are 92

10 through to 95.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: So -- thank you. All right. Well, they will be

13 Exhibits D92, 92/1, 93, 94, 94/1, 95, plus the same numbers with an "A"

14 after them.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, but we have a question, and

16 I think it's an oversight of Mr. Bakrac, actually. He did not address the

17 document 90/1, which is actually -- which belongs to the travel

18 authorisation number 90. I think it's an oversight of Mr. Bakrac, because

19 it belongs to this travel authorisation. It's a bill related to it.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'm very grateful

21 to my learned colleague for drawing my attention to that, the bill, and I

22 should like to tender ID D90 into evidence as well.

23 JUDGE HUNT: That was the one with the hotel bill at 5.900

24 dinars. What do you say about 90/1?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I have one question.

Page 5385

1 JUDGE HUNT: 90 is already in.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. 90 is already in, and I have one

3 question to Mr. Dundjer in this regard.

4 Q. It says -- this bill says that a room was rented from

5 Mr. Krnojelac and Mr. Slobodan Gagovic. Would you know who that is?

6 A. I do know who the gentleman is, yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us?

8 A. It's Slobodan Gagovic, and he appears in some evidence presented

9 before this Tribunal. I know him from newspaper articles, from

10 television, and so on.

11 Q. Is he an employee of the KP Dom or what is his function?

12 A. I don't know that exactly, actually, whether he worked in the

13 KP Dom. I assume he -- I assume he wasn't, but I don't know. I have no

14 accurate knowledge as to whether or not he was employed in the KP Dom.

15 Q. But you said -- but you said there's some evidence related to

16 Mr. Gagovic. From the evidence, don't you know who that is?

17 JUDGE HUNT: I think, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, bearing in mind the way

18 this witness treats questions, the better question would be: Do you know

19 what he does? Not whether he was employed by the KP Dom.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But what does --

21 JUDGE HUNT: He says he knows him from newspaper articles, from

22 television, and so on. Now, the question that I suggest you ask is:

23 Well, do you know what he does?

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

25 Q. Mr. Dundjer, you heard the question.

Page 5386

1 A. I assume he performed a function within the police force in Foca.

2 Q. What is the basis of this assumption? Is that the newspapers and

3 the television that you mentioned or is there more?

4 A. Both in the newspapers and television and that kind of thing,

5 yes.

6 Q. Do you know the function, the exact function? You said some

7 function in the police. What?

8 A. I can't remember exactly just now, but he did have some function

9 in the police force, perhaps even a responsible post, but what it was

10 exactly, I don't know, but it was some responsible post within the police

11 force.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I think I'm probably speaking

13 based upon information I have received in another case, but my

14 recollection is that this man was a very high police officer in Foca.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But, Your Honour, this is Dragan Gagovic.

16 Dragan Gagovic was the chief of police.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: So this is Slobodan Gagovic.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. Yes.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The question why I asked you in relation to

21 the KP Dom staff, we actually have two members of the KP Dom staff with

22 the last name Gagovic, but no one of them has Slobodan. Therefore, I was

23 just wondering. So -- yes. I think we cannot clear this further.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Do you object to the --

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objection, Your Honour.

Page 5387

1 JUDGE HUNT: They will be Exhibits D91/1 and D90/1A.

2 Mr. Bakrac.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that I have the

4 right to redirect with respect to what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asked in the

5 cross-examination. May I ask an additional question?

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, certainly. You're still in evidence-in-chief,

7 but you can ask him questions about what arose in cross-examination,

8 certainly.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. I just wanted to have your

10 confirmation.

11 Further examination by Mr. Bakrac:

12 Q. Mr. Dundjer, could you allow for the possibility that you might

13 have made a mistake with respect to the name? Were you perhaps thinking

14 of Dragan Gagovic?

15 A. I'll tell you exactly who I was thinking of. Yes, I was thinking

16 about that particular individual, because in the document ID D73, document

17 numbered ID D73, which lists the members of the Crisis Staff, I thought

18 that you were asking about that particular individual and it is quite

19 obvious that the name is different. It's one name over there and one name

20 here. I was thinking of document 73 when I -- when I remembered this.

21 And I think it was the Official Gazette of Foca, the ID D73, which lists

22 the members of the Crisis Staff, and that was the individual that I had in

23 mind, the one on that list, that name.

24 Q. And another question for you, Mr. Dundjer. Could you take a look,

25 please, at ID D93, page 1, that is to say, on the photocopy it is on the

Page 5388

1 left-hand side, but as you have explained it, it would actually be the

2 last and fourth page at the bottom. It says "PJ Drina," the Printing

3 Press Foca, and the number 314/88. Can you explain what that number down

4 below is?

5 A. This document, I assume, was printed in the Foca Printing Press,

6 the production unit called Drina, and it has a number. So when documents

7 are printed, they are accorded a number and they refer to a certain

8 period, and I assume that this is a document which is dated from before,

9 because it says "/88," which would mean abbreviated for 1988.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dundjer. One more question for you: Could you

11 tell us, please, looking at these travel authorisations, what the per diem

12 rate was.

13 A. For example, we have a document where -- that is to say, ID D94,

14 if we look at that particular document, it says that the per diems -- it

15 says "per diems," then there's a table, and then it says 1.500 a month

16 dinars. And it's written in, in handwriting, not typed in, but it's --

17 the 1.500 is written in, in hand. DSA, DSA amount, type of expenses, et

18 cetera. And also on document ID D95, on the second page, it says "per

19 diems" once again, or type of expense, DSA, amount, and it says 1.500

20 dinars again.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dundjer, and I have one more question regarding

22 document 92. The date there is the 24th of June, 1992, and the amount is

23 200.000 dinars, which is approved. And on the bill for payment, dated the

24 28th of August, 1992, it says 10.000 dinars. The amount is 10.000 dinars.

25 Now, that is very disproportionate compared to the 200.000 dinars. Can

Page 5389

1 you explain why?

2 A. Yes, I can explain. In the course of my investigations when I was

3 at Pale, I came upon and photocopied an order where the exchange rate of

4 the dinar was changed. It is not a signed copy, but it is dated. The

5 document is not signed but is dated, and on the basis of that altered

6 exchange rate for the dinar, I can just assume that devaluation had taken

7 place or denomination of the dinar. When ten, it was replaced by one.

8 What was ten dinars became one dinar, and probably this is how the

9 disproportion occurred on the figures in the document and the travel

10 authorisation, so between the 24th of June, 1992, and the payment, payment

11 number 248/8 on the subsequent date.

12 Q. Mr. Dundjer, tell me one more thing, please: What date was that

13 order reached?

14 A. The date was at a session of the Serbian government of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 13th of June, 1992. There is no number, but it

16 says Pale, the 30th of June, 1992. On page 2, the president was

17 Dr. Branko Dzeric, but it's not signed. And this document speaks about

18 the denomination or change of value of the dinar. That is the decree on

19 that, and that it comes into force on the 1st of July.

20 Q. According to that devaluation or denomination, how much would

21 200.000 dinars be in these new dinars?

22 A. Well, if we were to accept this ruling, that would be 20.000

23 dinars. Instead of 200.000, it would have been reduced to 20.000.

24 Q. Mr. Dundjer, this decree on change of value, does it have an ID D

25 number of any kind?

Page 5390

1 A. Yes. It is numbered ID D28.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

4 JUDGE HUNT: It would have been a help if we'd been referred to

5 that yesterday when we asked you what the exchange rate was. He said he

6 didn't know then.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was the

8 relationship between the dinar and the mark; he doesn't know that. He

9 just means when one zero was slashed, when the denomination took place.

10 The Defence talked to the Prosecution, and the Prosecution said

11 that the document wasn't signed, and that is why we didn't tender it into

12 evidence, so we skipped over it because it wasn't a signed document. That

13 was the only reason. But we ask this additionally because we didn't know

14 whether this document would be contested with respect to the sums of

15 money. So it was just that one zero was slashed, the dinar was

16 denominated in that way. And in conformity with recommendations from the

17 Chamber, we wanted to be as quick as possible and discuss documents that

18 we only thought might be contested: decree on changing the value of the

19 dinar.

20 And if I may, Your Honour, I understood your criticism, and let me

21 say that with regard to value, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asked how much the sum

22 mentioned was in relation to the German mark, but we still don't know how

23 much 200.000 dinars was in relation to the German mark. All we know is

24 that by the decree on changing the value of the dinar, one zero was

25 slashed, which means that instead of 200.000 dinars it would have been

Page 5391

1 20.000 dinars. But how much that was in marks, the equivalent in marks,

2 we still can't say that.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

5 Honour, thank you, at this point. And I should also like to propose, if

6 the Prosecution agrees, that I tender ID D28 into evidence.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, there is not a problem with

9 admissibility; however, this document -- it doesn't really say that it was

10 adopted because it isn't signed, and we do not have the Official Gazette

11 where we could really see it. Maybe Mr. Bakrac could find it in the

12 course of this trial, because it's not adopted.

13 JUDGE HUNT: What is the significance of the number of dinars

14 paid? It seems to me to be so remote that some form of informal proof

15 would be sufficient. What's the problem?

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The problem for me is actually that it

17 relates to the document that we just discussed at length, the 92.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, I know. But what is the significance of that

19 long discussion you had? He gets 200.000 instead of 20.000 dinars.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The travel authorisation speaks of 200.000;

21 the payment speaks of 20.000 --

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- or 10.000. That is -- we think that the

24 first document is not a proper document, and therefore this rather huge

25 difference is for us a point to make. So this, this document number 28

Page 5392

1 would explain it, would explain it, and --

2 JUDGE HUNT: I can only say, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I hope the

3 Prosecution has a better attack upon this evidence than that.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but we have no objections against the

5 admissibility.

6 JUDGE HUNT: You don't, very well. They will be Exhibits D28 and

7 28A.

8 Now, you're not tendering any more documents through this witness;

9 is that so?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We do have several more, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Sorry. I thought you said that you had finished with

12 the witness, but if you haven't, you proceed.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No. What I meant was I'd finished --

14 I said I'd finished my redirect with respect to the documents we were

15 discussing and on the basis of the Prosecution's cross-examination.

16 JUDGE HUNT: You proceed, then.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Dundjer, would you please take a look at Defence Exhibit ID

19 D96 now, please.

20 A. Yes, I have it.

21 Q. Is that also a travel, official travel order for official travel?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. Does it say the Drina Economic Unit Foca at the top as a heading?

24 A. Yes, it does.

25 Q. Is the number 204 and the date the 2nd of November, 1992?

Page 5393

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Does it also have a handwritten number like the previous

3 documents, and that number is 442/14?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Is it an official travel order made out to Milorad Krnojelac?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. And tell me, please, in the bottom right-hand corner, do we see

8 Milorad Krnojelac's signature above the word "Director"?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. Did you come by this official travel order from the same source as

11 the previous ones?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence would like

14 to --

15 JUDGE HUNT: Any questions, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I have some questions.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

18 Cross-examination on exhibit by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

19 Q. Witness, this is actually now a new format of travel

20 authorisation. Did you -- is that the only, the only one of this form

21 that you got, or did you get more of similar, similar authorisations?

22 A. This -- actually, I did not receive the same type of form in the

23 same format. The others are a little different. And you asked me

24 something about that yesterday, and I quoted this one as an example as

25 being different from the previous ones in format, as a form, printed

 

Page 5394

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14 and English transcripts.

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Page 5395

1 form. Therefore, I assume with this Drina Economic Unit, Foca -- it says

2 that there, typed out. So the form is quite different. Its format is

3 quite different.

4 Probably as this official travel order, I assume, as it is dated

5 the 2nd of November, 1992, and the previous ones are a previous date,

6 going backwards, they probably ran out of the forms they had been using

7 and so used a different form and that's why the form is different, because

8 they probably ran out of the ones they had.

9 Q. But my question was: You got only one of this form and not more

10 from which you choose, right? That's the only one of this format, right?

11 A. Yes. What's there is there. That's it.

12 Q. You also had mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac signs it on the first

13 page. And on the second page, under the words "Approved by," it's his

14 initials, right?

15 A. During my investigations, on a number of documents I saw the

16 signature of Milorad Krnojelac. I assume that below "Authorise," it was

17 authorised by the abbreviation "MK," Milorad Krnojelac.

18 Q. And the other initials or signature under the words "Liquidated

19 by," do you know who that is?

20 A. I can't say. I don't know.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, and no objection, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: They will be Exhibits D96 and 96A.

24 Further examination by Mr. Bakrac:

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have an additional

Page 5396

1 question, if I may, for the witness.

2 Q. Let's clear this up, Mr. Dundjer. Take a good look, please, and

3 tell me whether this is a printed form and whether the Drina Economic Unit

4 is printed, whereas the date and number, have they been written in --

5 typed in with a typewriter, whereas all the other things are printed; is

6 that right? Was that a printed form and the number and date just written

7 in, typed?

8 A. [No audible response]

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

10 more questions.

11 Your Honour, in the transcript, it says "No audible response" for

12 the answer.

13 A. I apologise. My answer was "Yes."

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Dundjer, let's move on now to Defence Exhibit ID D101.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is this a letterhead, saying "Drina Economic Unit, Foca"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is this an invoice?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Does it have a date?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Does it pertain to certain goods or, to be more precise, a certain

24 quantity of eggs?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5397

1 Q. Can you tell me, in the right-hand corner at the bottom of this

2 document, is there a signature, "M. Krnojelac," and there a stamp of the

3 Drina Economic Unit?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you obtain this document from the same source as the previous

6 one?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like

9 document ID D101 to be admitted into evidence, together with the

10 translation, 101A.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's a series, actually, of

13 documents, and the Prosecution does not have any objections against

14 entering this series of documents, but we have, just for clarification, a

15 few questions, because in the translation there are some things missing,

16 especially what it said on the stamp.

17 Cross-examination on exhibit by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

18 Q. What does this stamp say? Does it say "Drina" -- just the name of

19 the company or what?

20 A. No. It says "Economic Unit," "Economic," "Privredna," is in the

21 Latin alphabet. "Economic Unit," that's what it says along the edge. And

22 in the middle, it says "Drina."

23 JUDGE HUNT: Foca --

24 A. And underneath, it says "Foca," yes. Yes.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Page 5398

1 Q. And just one other question: There is a handwritten number in the

2 right-hand corner of the document. In all of these documents, there is

3 always a handwritten number. Do you know what it refers to?

4 A. When I explained travel orders, travel authorisations, I imagine

5 that that is what is done with all documents when you have that kind of

6 bookkeeping, when these numbers are entered by hand by the bookkeeper.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, no objection entering the

8 documents 101 through to 104A.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, they will be Exhibits D101, 101A; 102, 102A;

10 103, 103A; 104 and 104A.

11 Further examination by Mr. Bakrac:

12 Q. Mr. Dundjer, please be so kind as to look at document 108 now,

13 please.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And just tell us whether the signature on this document or,

16 rather, "MK" in your opinion, because you've said yourself that you've

17 seen a large number of documents that Milorad Krnojelac signed by

18 initialing them, is this the signature the same like the signature on the

19 other documents?

20 A. Yes. Yes, the signature is the same. I can safely assume that,

21 the initials "MK."

22 Q. And above that, it says the principal of the school; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes, and there's a stamp too.

25 Q. So there's a stamp of the Veselin Maslesa school, Srbinje?

Page 5399

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How did you obtain this document?

3 A. I obtained this document -- it was handed over to me with a set of

4 other documents by the previous investigator, and he went to the school

5 itself.

6 Q. Mr. Dundjer, I do apologise --

7 JUDGE HUNT: I think you need to apologise to the interpreters.

8 You have been running over them every time. Please, Mr. Bakrac.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise to the

10 interpreters and to you. It seemed to me that the transcript had stopped

11 and that's why I reacted.

12 JUDGE HUNT: That was because the translator was trying to work

13 out what had been said nearly three minutes beforehand, I guess. But

14 anyway, you proceed, but just pause.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Yes. Tell me, please, how did you obtain this document?

17 A. As I said, I obtained it. I obtained this document from the

18 previous investigator. I was told that it was from the administration of

19 the school itself, that that's where this document was found, and it was

20 handed over to me.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like

22 to tender ID D108 into evidence.

23 JUDGE HUNT: It would save us a lot of time - there would be so

24 much time taken up by that formula you use - if you just said, "I tender

25 that document."

Page 5400

1 Yes. Any objection?

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objection.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. They'll be Exhibits D108 and 108A.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. Let me

5 just get something from the other binder.

6 Q. Mr. Dundjer, please be so kind as to take a look at ID D111.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is that a document that was typed on a form of the brown coal mine

9 in Miljevina?

10 A. Yes. Yes, I have it here right in front of me. I have the

11 original as well.

12 Q. Is it correct that this is a certificate in which the brown coal

13 mine, Miljevina, certificates that, during the war, detainees were engaged

14 to work in the mine from the 18th of September, 1993, onwards?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it correct that there are proper records for all the persons

17 who worked there as well as their working schedule and that this was

18 handed over?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it correct that it says in item 3 that the responsible person

21 of this enterprise states with full responsibility that before the 18th of

22 the September, 1993, no detainees were engaged on work in this mine?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us whether, along with this certificate, a monthly

25 work schedule was obtained as well in photocopy form?

Page 5401

1 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Bakrac's microphone is off.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. In this monthly schedule, can we see the exact names of all the

4 persons who worked as well as the dates when they worked?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. Can you tell me how this document was obtained?

7 A. Yes. Lawyer Mihajlo Bakrac sent an official request to the brown

8 coal mine in Miljevina. This was sent to them. And Jovan Simic, the

9 former investigator, handed this over to me when I took this over.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like

11 to tender ID D111 into evidence.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Objection, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think we have the same situation like

15 yesterday with one of the documents. The Prosecution believes that this

16 is actually again a statement according to 92 bis, and we again have

17 inconsistencies, because it's a fact and I think nobody disputes that the

18 Witness 250 actually worked in that company before that date, but there is

19 no mentioning of this exception here in the document. So --

20 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. Where does 250 come into this?

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: He worked in the Miljevina mine company.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Before the 18th of September.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And we think because of this discrepancy,

Page 5402

1 this document needs to be checked with the person who actually signed it

2 why there is this discrepancy. But what we would suggest, I don't think

3 that we actually need this document, because the Prosecution stipulates to

4 the fact that before the 18th of September, 1993, no detainee worked

5 actually in the mine pit, with the exception of 250, who did not work in

6 the mine pit itself but above ground. So we would stipulate to this.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, let's just see what the purpose of the tender

8 is.

9 Mr. Bakrac, is this to prove anything other than the fact that 250

10 did not work at the time he said that he did for the company?

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now we've gotten into

12 document analysis. However, I shall respond. If we are talking about

13 ID 250, if we are talking about the mechanic, I think my learned friend

14 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff was quite clear. She said that this person did not

15 work in the actual pit, in the mine, but that that person was taken by two

16 persons from Miljevina -- taken to Miljevina to the mine, that is, to

17 repair some cars, and that it is not being challenged that they - they,

18 the detainees from the KP Dom - started working in the mine only from the

19 18th of September, 1993, onwards. This is quite relevant for the Defence

20 because at that time, the accused, Milorad Krnojelac, was not working in

21 the KP Dom. Among other things, he is charged with the allegation that

22 while he was warden, persons, detainees of Muslim ethnicity, were taken to

23 the mine to work there.

24 So the Defence does not wish to challenge that one person, as he

25 portrayed it himself during his testimony, was taken to Miljevina when he

Page 5403

1 was taken there by two military men to repair cars which might have

2 belonged to the mine. However, this document has to do with the work of

3 detainees, Muslims, in the mine, in the actual pit, and that is what many

4 witnesses talked about.

5 I think that we can clarify that now with the OTP.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Stop, please. The Prosecution has stipulated that

7 before the 18th of September, no detainee worked actually in the mine pit.

8 That's what the Prosecution accepts. Now, does this document prove

9 anything other than what the Prosecution has now stipulated?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Nothing else, Your Honour, really,

11 but the translation I got made me feel that I should clarify matters.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that is the fact, is it, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

13 The Prosecution does stipulate there is no suggestion in the evidence that

14 any detainee from KP Dom worked in the Miljevina mine pit prior to the

15 18th of September, 1993?

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, we stipulate that.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, the document is rejected as completely

18 irrelevant. What possible use can the document be?

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the annexes are an

20 integral part of the indictment, and the annexes say that Milorad

21 Krnojelac is responsible for the work of a large number of persons at the

22 mine in Miljevina. That is why the Defence thought that this document was

23 relevant.

24 However, now, since the Prosecutor has made this stipulation that

25 nobody from the KP Dom worked in the mine before the 18th of September,

Page 5404

1 then there is indeed no need for this document to be admitted into

2 evidence because it -- the period before the 18th of September is not

3 being challenged any more.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Well, the answer to my question, which is what

5 possible use can the document be, is "none"; therefore, you no longer

6 tender it. Is that so?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Now there is no use

8 because the Prosecutor has accepted this fact. But before --

9 JUDGE HUNT: Please, if you keep repeating everything, we will

10 never get on. I'm sorry to be irritable about this, but we are proceeding

11 at a snail's pace through this, when if you just said, "None and I no

12 longer tender it," we'd get on. Now, let's get on to the next document,

13 please.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Dundjer, please look at ID D113.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And tell me briefly whether this is a decision concerning work

18 obligation, and does it relate to Ivica Peter?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And it was signed by the president of the -- chairman of the

21 executive committee?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. ID D-1?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is that a decision which approves the work obligation of Ivica

Page 5405

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14 and English transcripts.

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16

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22

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Page 5406

1 Peter?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. By Milojica Miletic, secretary of the Secretariat for National

4 Defence?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And ID D113-2, is that a temporary permit for free movement in the

7 name of Ivica Peter?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Issued by the chairman of the executive committee, Radojica

10 Mladjenovic, signed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you obtain these documents in the original, in the original

13 that the Defence counsel has, and who did you get this to?

14 A. I got this from the person whom it concerns, that is to say, Ivica

15 Peter gave me all of this.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Ivica Peter, Your Honours, is the

17 witness who was not allowed by his wife to come here, as you noted

18 yourself, so we would like to have this tendered into evidence.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, because this document is not so

21 legible, I just have a few questions.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

23 Cross-examination on exhibit by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

24 Q. Mr. Dundjer, to whom is this document addressed? Is it addressed

25 to Mr. Ivica? This document 113, to whom is it addressed?

Page 5407

1 A. Yes. It relates to him, and it was given to him. This is a

2 decision that was handed over personally to persons it related to.

3 Q. And I just wonder what the relation is to the KP Dom. Is the shop

4 number 61, is it related to the KP Dom Drina? Do you know that?

5 A. I don't know.

6 JUDGE HUNT: What is the relevance of it, Mr. Bakrac?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we tendered evidence

8 with regard to work obligation, Official Gazettes related to that, then

9 also permits for free movement for a person who is not a Muslim. He was

10 supposed to explain these documents. These are the circumstances

11 involved. We have a similar document related to another witness, and we

12 thought that that was sufficient to illustrate the question of work

13 obligation, movement in Foca, and I think that the Prosecutor dealt with

14 this through their witnesses.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you better get into evidence the fact that this

16 person is not a Muslim, if that's what you want to show.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We have a similar

18 permit of another witness who's not a Muslim, and that's why we did not

19 ask this witness specifically, but maybe we can ask him.

20 Further examination by Mr. Bakrac:

21 Q. Is this a Muslim name, Ivica Peter?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Matovic Bosko and Drakul Pero, are these Muslim names?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Now, it's probably as a result of my complaint that

Page 5408

1 we're moving at a snail's pace, but you did go through some of those

2 numbers rather quickly. I've noted 113 and 113-1. There's also a

3 document here 113-2. Is that being tendered?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. You noted it all

5 properly, as well as my wish to expedite matters. Yes, and this document

6 as well.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. They will be Exhibits D113, 113A, 113/1,

10 113/1A, 113/2, 113/2A.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have four more

12 documents that I would like to introduce through this witness, and these

13 documents are on an addition list. In the third binder, that is.

14 Q. Mr. Dundjer, please be so kind as to look at Defence Exhibit ID

15 D138.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me, is this a working report of the International Committee

18 of the Red Cross concerning visits to detainees who were in the prison in

19 Srbinje?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. This document is not signed. Can you tell me how you obtained

22 this document?

23 A. Before that, I would like to add a sentence. I obtained this

24 document in the following way: Bozidar Krnojelac, the son of the accused,

25 brought this to my office. He had got it, and you can see in the upper

Page 5409

1 right-hand corner that he came on the 9th of March, 2001. You even have

2 the actual hour. It was sent by fax, that is. Because of this document,

3 we went to several different places, Trebinje, Bileca, Foca, Banja Luka,

4 and Belgrade, trying to obtain this document, that is.

5 The 9th of March was a month and a half ago, so it was only a

6 month and a half ago that we found this document. We realised that there

7 was a report of the ICRC, and this is the way in which we obtained it.

8 Q. Mr. Dundjer, let us just clarify this matter. Did you ask for any

9 report concerning Red Cross visits, or were you seeking to find this

10 particular report?

11 A. We were looking for it.

12 Q. Reports of the International Committee of the Red Cross to the

13 prison in Foca; is that right?

14 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender

16 ID D138 into evidence.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Would it not be a good idea to find out whether the

18 accused's son has ever told anybody where he got it from? It is an

19 unsigned document.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21 Q. This document was sent by fax, but in addition to that, do you

22 know who Mr. Bozidar Krnojelac got this from?

23 A. No. I assumed that he will be a witness here and he can say, but

24 I don't recall him having said anything like that.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he has been called as a

Page 5410

1 witness so we can ask him, and that is the reason why we did not ask about

2 how he obtained this. We will have Bozidar here as a witness, and I

3 believe we can clarify the matter in that way at that time.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would like this

6 document to be admitted into evidence if the Prosecutor does not object,

7 or we can introduce it later through Bozidar if the Prosecutor objects on

8 the grounds of authenticity, the lack of signature, et cetera.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think it's better to have it, have it

10 entered through the person who can actually clarify how it was obtained

11 and, yes, and clarify why the signature is missing.

12 JUDGE HUNT: That's fair enough. You can deal with it later,

13 then, Mr. Bakrac.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Dundjer, could you please be so kind as to move on to ID D139.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me, please, is this a certificate issued by ODP Vucevo

18 Srbinje, dated the 9th of April, 2001, which certifies that Milorad

19 Krnojelac and his family, in the course of 1992, lived in the Zelengora

20 Hotel in Srbinje, Foca?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And is it signed by Radmila Simicevic, acting director, and did

23 you obtain this in the document -- the document in the original, and who

24 did you obtain this document from?

25 A. Yes. Everything you said is correct, that is to say, that at the

Page 5411

1 request of the family of the accused, this -- a request was submitted to

2 this company and the director issued this certificate, and that's who I

3 got it from.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I just don't understand, who is this company? Was it

5 the owner of the hotel or what? How can this person certify this?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the

7 socially-owned company of Vucevo in Srbinje, and the person who signed

8 this is the acting director, Radmila Simicevic, an economist, and she

9 represents that company as acting director.

10 JUDGE HUNT: You say that it is a socially-owned company, but what

11 relationship does it have to the hotel? It's a very simple question: How

12 could this person certified that your client and his family lived in the

13 hotel at that time?

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the socially-owned

15 company of Vucevo was the owner of the Zelengora Hotel as well as of many

16 other facilities in the territory of the municipality of Foca.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Objection, Your Honour. First of all, it

19 doesn't say on which records Ms. Simicevic relies on. It doesn't refer to

20 anything, how she got this information. And also it says, "Lived in the

21 course of 1992 in the Zelengora Hotel." That could mean a week, it could

22 mean the entire year, 1992, so --

23 JUDGE HUNT: I realise it is of very little weight. What is the

24 significance of where he lived? Can you suggest what it is?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We have actually evidence that he lived in

Page 5412

1 the house of one of the -- of a Muslim. He moved into the house of a

2 Muslim. That is, at least the evidence --

3 JUDGE HUNT: Was it challenged?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I don't -- I'm not aware of this, no. Was

5 it?

6 JUDGE HUNT: What is the point of all of this, Mr. Bakrac?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is not being

8 contested. The Defence did not contest this; however, if you recall a

9 Prosecution witness, one or two, actually, I think one Prosecution witness

10 said that he saw Milorad Krnojelac going to the Zelengora Hotel and that

11 that is where the military police headquarters was.

12 The Defence wants to preempt the possibility of any wrong

13 conclusion. We have obtained this document in support of what the wife of

14 the accused will say during her testimony, because she lived there too.

15 We, therefore, believe that we are now discussing the authenticity

16 of this document, whereas the contents can be evaluated while the son and

17 the wife testify whether they lived there or not. However, if the accused

18 was seen in front of the Zelengora Hotel, that does not mean that he was

19 going to military police headquarters.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, my suggestion would be to enter

22 this document into evidence when the wife or the son testify, because that

23 would clarify which time period is actually covered in the document.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Hardly. They can't say what this director of science

25 and economics meant when she wrote it. There is evidence, you say, that

Page 5413

1 he lived with a Muslim, but --

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

3 JUDGE HUNT: -- was the suggestion that he lived with this Muslim

4 throughout the whole of 1992?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, but what -- we do not stipulate that he

6 lived in the Hotel Zelengora.

7 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. But is there any dispute that he, at some

8 stage during the year, lived in the hotel?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, that's disputed. However, we do not

10 object against the admissibility of the document, but we do not give it

11 any value, actually.

12 JUDGE HUNT: That may be so if they couldn't produce better

13 records than that, but it may be the best they can do. I don't know.

14 Well, Mr. Bakrac if there is going to be an important issue, it's

15 not objected to, but you must understand that very little weight can be

16 given to a document in such vague terms. It may be that you can get a

17 better document. This one is dated the 19th of April. So you might be

18 able to get in touch with them and ask them to give you something better.

19 But when they are giving certificates like this, it may be a good idea if

20 they also state this company owns the hotel. It proves itself then.

21 Do you want to go on with this document or will you get a better

22 one?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. What I want to do

24 is to -- you see the date when it was obtained. We hadn't had the time to

25 correct it. This was written at the request made, and that is why it came

Page 5414

1 after the Pre-Defence Conference.

2 JUDGE HUNT: But you understand that the Prosecution is going to

3 dispute that they ever lived in the hotel. If you want to have some value

4 in such a certificate, it would be a good idea if they could produce even

5 some records, if they've still got them, or if they have to go through

6 something else, they produce some specific dates. It would assist your

7 client's case so much better if it was properly done.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, quite so, and the

9 Defence will do its best, like for the Miljevina mine, to obtain something

10 from the book which will show the period. But we shall be moving to prove

11 this through witnesses, and as the Prosecution -- as the Prosecution did,

12 using witnesses to present their evidence.

13 So we are going to have direct testimony on these facts, and we

14 shall do our best to obtain additional evidence and additional documents

15 to bear this one out, to substantiate it.

16 But let me say once again that this is the way in which documents

17 are obtained in Yugoslavia. We can discuss the matter here, whether that

18 is not the right course or whatever, but when you ask for a document, when

19 you ask for a piece of information, then that's the way you obtain the

20 information. You contact the organ, the individual representing it, and

21 he writes a certificate of this kind as he understood your request.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it may be that the request was faulty. But you

23 see, none of this can get in under Rule 92 bis, which is the usual way of

24 getting in evidence otherwise than by calling the witness. But we

25 nevertheless do have power under Rule 89 of the act to receive any written

Page 5415

1 form where the interests of justice allow. Now, "interests of justice,"

2 of course, refer to both parties, and if there's going to be a dispute

3 about something, then putting in a vague document like that is hardly in

4 the interests of justice.

5 So if you want to get something from a company, you should specify

6 with some detail what it is you want them to put into their certificate.

7 It may be that if it is a matter of such vital importance such as the one

8 that was debated yesterday, it would have to be something more than just a

9 certificate, but documents themselves will have to be produced. Now,

10 we're talking about the one from the Ministry of Defence.

11 The interests of justice, as I say, relate to both parties, and we

12 are as anxious as we are, and the Prosecution, as I understand it, are

13 anxious also that you get in all the documents that are appropriate.

14 They've got to be appropriate documents to start with. And a certificate

15 can be admitted under Rule 89 but only where the interests of justice

16 require it.

17 So please, if you give them a better request, you may get a better

18 document.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If I may, Your Honour, I think the

20 Defence, in the interests of justice, was fairly flexible in the case of

21 Prosecution documents. So perhaps it was on that basis that we considered

22 that what we offered, our documents into evidence, would be acceptable to

23 the Prosecution and the Chamber by the same token.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'm not suggesting that you were not of great

25 assistance. I think you were of great assistance in getting in documents

Page 5416

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Page 5417

1 in an informal way. The issue, of course, is whether there is a dispute

2 about the matter that it contains, and here we are informed there is a

3 dispute.

4 So let us try to get the best we can so that your client's case is

5 put in the best way possible.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. May I

7 go on to the next document, which is a similar one? So I want to say

8 straight away that that is the only way in which we were able to come by

9 this document relevant to the facts.

10 Q. Mr. Dundjer, will you take a look at Defence Exhibit ID D140.

11 A. Yes, I've got it.

12 Q. Can you tell me, please, is this a certified issued by the

13 Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Centre Public Security Srbinje, on the

14 19th of April, 2001, by which it states that, looking at the penal and

15 criminal records, it is certified that Milorad Krnojelac's son, son of

16 Bogdan and Andja was -- did not have a past criminal record? Does it have

17 the signature and the stamp of the Ministry of Internal Affairs?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And could you tell us how you obtained the document.

20 A. We put in an official request from the FILA law office and this

21 was the official response, and that is how I obtained the document.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objection, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. D140 and 140A.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

Page 5418

1 Q. Mr. Dundjer, the last document - and I stress that on purpose -

2 the last document, ID D141, can you tell us, please, is this a certificate

3 certifying that Banovic, son of Milan, Branko, he was a Second Lieutenant,

4 born in 1961 in Gorazde municipality, was wounded on the 20th of June,

5 1991 [sic], during an ambush at Perovici-Tjentiste, and is the document

6 signed and certified with a stamp, and how you obtained the document?

7 A. Yes. Everything you've said is correct. This document was

8 directly obtained from the individual named here, that is to say, Branko

9 Banovic, who was seriously wounded and spent all his time at home. He is

10 the son -- that is to say, the son of Mr. Krnojelac went to the flat and

11 brought me this document. So we obtain the document directly from him.

12 JUDGE HUNT: The translation came out "... was wounded on the

13 20th of June, 1991." The document itself says "1992," both the B/C/S and

14 the English version.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps it was my

16 mistake. I think I must have misspoken. I said 1991. The document says

17 1992.

18 Q. Witness, is 1992 the correct year?

19 A. Yes, it is, 1992.

20 Q. And my last question to you, Mr. Dundjer: Do you know whether

21 this person's nickname is Bota?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE HUNT: How do you spell that, I'm sorry, the nickname?

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The nickname is B-o-t-a, Bota,

25 B-o-t-a. He is the individual that is mentioned in the testimony. And I

Page 5419

1 therefore tender this into evidence.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objection, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE HUNT: They will be Exhibits D141 and 141A.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, those were my questions

5 for this witness. I have completed my examination.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

7 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, general cross-examination.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I only just wonder to one point. Maybe

9 it is an oversight, Mr. Bakrac. You have a lot documents in your binder

10 that Mr. Krnojelac signed and we have not yet addressed.

11 JUDGE HUNT: It may be that he's going to prove them himself.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I just wonder if it is an oversight, if

13 you have overlooked this. In the middle of all the document discussion --

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour, could

15 I remind Madam Uertz-Retzlaff that at the end of our day yesterday, at the

16 end of business yesterday, I said that the rest of the documents with

17 Milorad Krnojelac's signature would be presented through his own testimony

18 and that he himself would be able to explain the documents. So I've

19 already discussed that, but let me just remind my learned colleague of

20 that.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Will there be any issue about their provenance,

22 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, because it may be important, while we have the witness

23 to do -- to obtain that.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I assume that the witness cannot answer the

25 questions. I have a lot of questions, detailed questions, in regard of a

Page 5420

1 lot of these documents, and I assume that he will not be able to answer

2 them, but Mr. Krnojelac, of course, will be able to do that.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Do you want to cross-examine the witness?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I have a few more questions left.

5 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

6 Q. Mr. Dundjer, you interviewed most of the witnesses, as I saw from

7 the witness statements, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you actually did it, did them all together with the person

10 Rada Sestovic-Krnojelac. You've mentioned that already yesterday. That's

11 right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was -- what is Mrs. Sestovic-Krnojelac's profession? Do you

14 know that?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. She is not in law enforcement or is she a lawyer or police

17 person?

18 A. No, I don't think she is.

19 Q. Did she actually -- did she actually hint you to -- direct you to

20 the witnesses that you approached or who found them?

21 A. What I can say is this: I don't reside in Srbinje Foca all the

22 time, and the lady in question lives there permanently, which means that

23 she was the first source. She contacted them, of course with some other

24 people. She didn't do that -- she didn't only do that herself. There

25 were a number of people who enabled me to come into contact with certain

Page 5421

1 witnesses and talk to them and all the rest of it.

2 Q. Mr. Dundjer, are you aware that Mr. Krnojelac claims that he was

3 warden only for a part of the KP Dom, right? You are aware of this

4 special defence he has?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That actually another person was in charge of the Muslim

7 detainees, right?

8 A. I don't know who was in charge.

9 Q. You did not attempt to establish who this person was?

10 A. I can't answer that question with a yes or a no. I don't know

11 with any certainty who that individual was. As an investigator, all I can

12 say -- is speak on the basis of documents as to that other person, but I

13 haven't got any documents to that effect to be able to give an affirmative

14 answer to your question. So I can't make an assumption as to that other

15 person.

16 Q. I didn't ask you to make an assumption. My question was: Why did

17 you not attempt to establish this other person?

18 A. I didn't succeed in establishing that, although perhaps I

19 attempted.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. The Court

21 will determine who that person was and whether the person exists and

22 things of that kind. That is something which the Court will establish.

23 The witness says that it was his task to investigate and not to establish

24 who was who. He is not here to testify to those facts, nor was he called

25 here to do so.

Page 5422

1 JUDGE HUNT: It depends upon whether he has personal knowledge.

2 If he has personal knowledge, he's here as a witness, and the Prosecution

3 is entitled to obtain any information from him about which he can give

4 evidence, so long as it's relevant.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he said he does not have

6 any personal knowledge. He cannot ascertain who the person is, establish

7 who he is. He says he has no personal knowledge of it.

8 JUDGE HUNT: And then the question was: "You did not attempt to

9 find out who was the person in charge?" What's wrong with that?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, but after that question, Your

11 Honour, there was another question that followed, to establish what the

12 person was. That was the interpretation we got, at least.

13 JUDGE HUNT: The next question was: "Why did you not attempt to

14 establish this other person?"

15 Well, the fact that he did not is relevant. Now he's being given

16 the opportunity of explaining why he did not.

17 You proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

19 Q. You have not yet answered my question. Why did you not attempt to

20 find out who this person was?

21 A. I said that I tried to do so but failed.

22 Q. What did you try? What did you do?

23 A. Well, I attempted to do so, like in the other instances, to obtain

24 a document which would explain other people except Milorad Krnojelac, but

25 I failed. I was not able to obtain any relevant document which would

Page 5423

1 confirm who that other person was, if we're talking about that other

2 person all the time.

3 Q. Mr. Dundjer, as an investigator, you know that you can have

4 written evidence and you can have witnesses testifying to certain facts.

5 Why did you not inquire with the witnesses, especially not with the guards

6 and staff members of the KP Dom?

7 A. What -- what do you mean? What didn't I seek?

8 Q. Who was --

9 A. What -- why didn't I inquire?

10 Q. Who was the commander of the other part of the KP Dom, the alleged

11 other part?

12 A. I did talk to witnesses, and some witnesses did mention some

13 names, the names of some persons in authority who had certain competencies

14 over the Muslims who were within the frameworks of the KP Dom. They did

15 mention certain names, the witnesses did, I mean. So if that is your

16 question, yes, the witnesses did name some names. But from those witness

17 statements, that is to say, apart from those witness statements, I have no

18 other documents relevant to that. And in the witness statements, certain

19 names were mentioned, persons who had -- to your specific question,

20 whether they had any authority in the Dom, yes, they did.

21 Q. I would like to move on to another issue, and it's related to the

22 document 112. Would you please have a look at the document 112.

23 A. Which number, 112?

24 Q. 112. We have not entered it. I assume it will be entered through

25 the person mentioned there, but I do not want to mention the name of this

Page 5424

1 person at the moment because actually in the case in chief, this was the

2 person number Z, so he had a pseudonym. So I just want to have you have a

3 look at the document number 112, and you see there the person it relates

4 to, and we do not want to say the name of this person.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Can you give us the pseudonym?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's Z.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Z?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Z, yes. He just had the letter, the letter

9 Z.

10 Q. You interviewed this person.

11 A. I talked to him several times.

12 Q. And he worked in (redacted) before the war, right?

13 A. Yes, he did work.

14 Q. He was actually (redacted), right?

15 A. Well, I can't remember whether (redacted)

16 JUDGE HUNT: Should that be redacted?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Very well, thanks.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

20 Q. But at some time he was, do you recall that? It's in the

21 statement, actually. We can -- I can refer you to the statement, if you

22 need.

23 A. Can I have the statement?

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, please. With the help of the usher,

25 it's --

Page 5425

1 A. Thank you.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Has it an exhibit number?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, it has the number 127, ID D127 -- oh,

4 I'm sorry --

5 A. No, no, no, please.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- that's wrong. It has to be 127, ID D127.

7 You gave me the wrong one.

8 Q. Here, this is the right one, and I would like to refer you to the

9 first -- to the second paragraph of this statement, where it says --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- where it says actually the years when this person was in the

12 function that I just mentioned. You remember that now?

13 A. "From 1978 to 1980,(redacted) ." That's

14 what he said.

15 Q. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 A. All I can do is to read out what he said.

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted) , but

23 everything he states here and that (redacted)

24 what the person stated.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the name was pronounced.

Page 5426

1 The witness does not know that it was a protected witness, so may we have

2 that struck from the record.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it may not be struck from the record,but almost

4 the whole of that answer will have to be redacted. There's quite a bit

5 there that will have to be redacted. Don't worry, we're keeping an eye on

6 it.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you.

8 JUDGE HUNT: That is when the printer goes.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

10 Q. Thank you. That's my questions related to this person. And then

11 I just wanted to ask you in relation to another person: Do you know a

12 Dr. Ismet Sosevic from Foca? Can you say anything about this person?

13 A. Ismet, you say?

14 Q. Ismet Sosevic.

15 A. You mean do I know him personally, is that -- was that your

16 question?

17 Q. Do you know him personally?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you learn anything about what happened to him and to his

20 apartment?

21 A. No. I don't remember. I don't remember at all. Perhaps the name

22 is mentioned in one of the documents which I identified, but otherwise, in

23 answer to your question, I don't remember him, nor did I ever meet him

24 personally. Perhaps he's mentioned in a document. If you provide me with

25 that document, I can take a look, but I don't know him, no.

Page 5427

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Page 5428

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 11.00 and I have two more

2 questions, two, three more questions left.

3 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn until 11.30.

4 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, before the break I said that I

8 had a few questions left; however, I overlooked one thing. I have

9 actually a whole series of questions related to the Defence document ID

10 D1, that's the photo binder. This photo binder is not yet into evidence,

11 but I assume that Mr. Dundjer made the photos, and I would have a real

12 series of questions.

13 JUDGE HUNT: You'd better find out first of all --

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

15 JUDGE HUNT: -- what he had to do with them.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

17 Q. Mr. Dundjer, the photo material, this is called here in the list

18 of exhibits ID D1, did you make the photos or were you present?

19 A. Could I please ask -- I would like to ask to see the photographs

20 that the Prosecution is mentioning, first. I personally did not make

21 them. I didn't take the photographs myself. I am acquainted with part of

22 these photographs. They were taken by a professional photographer and not

23 by me, and when some of these photographs were taken, I was present. I

24 think that that is the answer to your question.

25 Q. Yes. Then I can proceed and ask you about specific --

Page 5429

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I don't know that the photographs

4 were the subject of the examination-in-chief. And yesterday or perhaps

5 the day before, I told my learned colleague Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff that we

6 would try and have the author of the photographs, the photographer, I

7 think that was his name on which the photographs were, he was a

8 professional -- he is a professional photographer from Foca, and we're

9 trying to see whether he could come and explain the photographs to us. He

10 took the photographs himself at different periods of time, and that is why

11 we did not include that portfolio.

12 Mr. Dundjer was present when some of the photographs were taken,

13 but a smaller number; otherwise, Mr. Ivanovic took the photographs at an

14 earlier period. And the photographs were not the subject of the

15 examination-in-chief, so --

16 JUDGE HUNT: But so what? He has said that he was there. Why

17 can't he be asked some questions? He is in a position to give evidence.

18 Provided it's relevant, he can be asked the questions.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The Defence is raising this issue in

20 principle, because the way we understand the rules of cross-examination,

21 the cross-examination should pertain to the examination-in-chief, and this

22 documentation was not discussed in the examination-in-chief. Only part of

23 the photographs where he was present he can explain that, but this is a

24 question of principle. The Defence believes that this witness did not

25 discuss the photographs at all during the examination-in-chief, and that

Page 5430

1 is why we think that he cannot be cross-examined on this issue.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I think you'd better read the rule again, Mr. Bakrac,

3 but, "Cross-examination shall be limited where the witness is able to give

4 evidence relevant to the case for the cross-examining party to the subject

5 matter of that case." So he can be asked questions relevant to the

6 Prosecution's case provided that he's qualified to do so, and he says he

7 was there when some of them were taken. And it is part of the

8 Prosecution's case that certain things can be seen, so he must be -- the

9 Prosecution must be entitled to be -- ask questions about it.

10 You proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

12 Q. Witness, we go one by one, and you first can tell us if you were

13 present.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Photo 1A -- photo A1, sorry, photo A1 and A2, were you present

16 when these photos were made?

17 A. Specifically when these photographs were taken, I was not present,

18 but I was present when photographs were made, and I know what these

19 photographs pertain to specifically. As for these, numbers 1 and 2, I was

20 not present, but I know what they pertain to.

21 Q. My question is actually only one, I have only one question in

22 relation to these two photos: Which windows would be the position of the

23 photographer? The photographer where he was making -- taking his photos,

24 when he was taking the photos, where exactly was he standing? And maybe I

25 can help you orient yourself by showing you Prosecution Exhibit 18, photo

Page 5431

1 7476.

2 A. Yes. It's the top photo. The photo on the top.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said that he

4 was not present when the photographs were taken but that he thought that

5 he knew what they pertained to. And the question was where the

6 photographer stood when the photographs were being taken, but since he was

7 not present, how can he answer that? So let us clarify this. If he knows

8 what they pertain to, well and fine, let him answer that, but how can he

9 know where the photographer stood?

10 JUDGE HUNT: If he says, as he did, "I know what this photograph

11 pertains to," he can be asked questions in relation to it. He may not

12 know where the photographer was when it was taken, but that is a matter

13 for him to answer when the question is asked.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

15 Q. Mr. Dundjer, first of all, on which floor was the photographer?

16 A. I was not with him; I don't know.

17 Q. Well, then, yes, I think -- and this photo, looking at this photo,

18 you wouldn't be able to say which window, if at all on this floor, you

19 would know?

20 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I really wonder what the value of

21 it will be, because you're going to ask to ask him to guess, aren't you?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes, you can put this away.

23 Q. In relation to the photo A3 and A4, I have actually the same

24 question. Where was the photographer standing?

25 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest you to ask him to identify which

Page 5432

1 photographs he was present when it was taken. That will give us some

2 value to the answer.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, okay.

4 Q. Mr. Dundjer, can you tell us when you were actually present with

5 the photographer when which photo was taken? Can you point the photos

6 out?

7 A. As for these photographs that pertain to the interior of rooms.

8 Q. Yes. Which ones?

9 A. I can say which photographs these are.

10 Q. Yes, please.

11 A. If I remember well, these are photographs from the interior. I

12 know that photograph A7 is the interior of the room where the toilet is,

13 whereas 8 is a photograph of the interior -- actually, this is a room that

14 is the telephone exchange.

15 Q. Which room?

16 A. While 9 is -- A9. A9 is a small room with generators.

17 Q. First of all, identifying these photos number A7 to A9, on which

18 floor were these rooms?

19 A. I don't know whether the question was phrased properly. Do you

20 mean at which level?

21 Q. Yes. Yes.

22 A. Over here, one can see, and I was present -- this is not called a

23 floor, a floor as you put it. Actually, when you enter the building, the

24 administration building, that is the basic part. We call it the ground

25 floor. In Yugoslavia, we don't call this a floor. We call it the ground

Page 5433

1 floor.

2 Q. It's the ground floor in the administration building, left-hand

3 side from the entrance, viewed from the entrance?

4 A. When viewed from the entrance, yes. Yes, that's right, on the

5 left. But here on the photographs the position is different.

6 Q. What do you mean by this? Why do you say the position is

7 different?

8 A. My response to your question is: To the left, yes.

9 Q. We actually have received a floor plan from the Defence counsels

10 and it's marked C1.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we have this floor plan in front of --

12 Q. Oh, you have it?

13 A. I do, yes.

14 Q. Mr. Dundjer, did you make this floor plan?

15 A. No, no, no, no.

16 Q. Who made it?

17 A. This is probably some person who is knowledgeable in such things,

18 somebody who is a specialist in drawings of this kind. I haven't done

19 this.

20 Q. Who made it?

21 A. I can just guess who made it. I don't know. I certainly don't

22 know the name of the person, but obviously somebody who knows all about

23 technical drawings, somebody who's had that kind of technical training,

24 who can do this kind of thing.

25 Q. And how did you get this floor plan or is it now the first time

Page 5434

1 that you see it?

2 A. As far as I can remember, I think that I saw it at some point, but

3 I couldn't swear on that. I assume that this is the ground floor.

4 Q. And --

5 A. A floor plan of the ground floor, as I put it a few minutes ago.

6 Q. Yes. And who gave it to you?

7 A. Right now I really cannot recall.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we have the floor plan on the ELMO?

9 Q. Mr. Dundjer, can you -- with a pointer, can you point out to us

10 the entrance? The entrance to the KP Dom, where is it?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The witness is pointing at the building

12 close to the number "5," at this opening in the building, close to number

13 "5."

14 Q. And can you show us the --

15 A. Approximately here, approximately here.

16 Q. Yes. And can you show us also the metal door leading into the

17 compound?

18 A. [Indicates]

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, the witness is indicating the wall below

20 number 6, or is it -- yes, number 6. It's not actually -- yes, there is a

21 little door, hardly visible, indicated on it.

22 Q. Now, can you point out --

23 A. It's a poor copy, though. I think that's right.

24 JUDGE HUNT: It's better than the one we've got, I can assure you.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Page 5435

1 Q. And this room A7, the photo A7, can you point this washroom to us,

2 out to us in the sketch -- in the floor plan, sorry?

3 A. I don't know what this relates to. There are two underneath. Are

4 you referring to this area that I'm pointing at now? Is that the

5 question? Are you asking me about that area?

6 Q. Well, I was asking you about number -- the photo number A7. Can

7 you show us where it is on the sketch? Oh, you have it in the same --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It may be -- it may be more helpful if you, if you put out this

10 floor plan. Yes.

11 A. [In English] Thank you.

12 Q. You don't need to put the photo on.

13 A. [Interpretation] I think -- all right. Yes, yes.

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. I think that a fair answer would be that photograph A7 is the room

16 that I'm going to mark right now in terms of its interior.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the room between

18 the numbers, it's hard to read, between the numbers --

19 JUDGE HUNT: Seven and eight.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- 7 and 8. And it says 11, 200 -- I can't

21 read, I can't read, but 11, 204, looks like. And it also says "WC," it

22 says W -- yes.

23 Q. And now the next, the next photo, A8, can you point out the room?

24 A. Yes, I can point that out.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Mr. Dundjer is now pointing --

Page 5436

1 A. I would just like to add something. I would like to say something

2 about this room --

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

4 Q. Yes, but let me first say for the record --

5 A. -- with your permission.

6 Q. Let me first say for the record where you are pointing at.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the room between

8 the numbers 9 and 10.

9 Q. Yes, now, yes, you wanted to add something?

10 A. Since I was there on this very spot, this is the room that is not

11 entered from the main hallway as I'm pointing right now, but you enter it

12 from a small hallway which is an integral part of this room here.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was --

14 A. That is to say - may I just add one more thing - from the big

15 hallway here, you enter this room which in fact has a small hallway, and

16 your question was A8, so when you enter on the left, there's a door, and

17 then you enter this room that I already said is this so-called telephone

18 exchange with a sort of desk-like thing. That's it.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was indicating that you enter the

20 room, this particular room, from the room between the numbers 8 and 9, and

21 that you cannot enter it through the corridor.

22 Q. Where was the switchboard?

23 A. The main hallway.

24 Q. Yes. And where was this telephone switchboard or the telephone

25 installation, where was it in the room?

Page 5437

1 A. Well, over here, A8, you can see some kind of a device here.

2 That's the telephone.

3 Q. Do you mean this machine on the desk, or what? Can you put it on

4 the ELMO? We couldn't see at what you were pointing.

5 A. I'll point it out right now. That's it. And now I can't remember

6 exactly, but there is something else belonging to this telephone thing in

7 this area, but this is definitely part of this telephone device. That's

8 why they called this room the switchboard room because that's where all

9 these devices are.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was actually pointing at this

11 telephone device on the desk.

12 Q. Was there a --

13 A. Sorry, I beg your pardon. I did not say a telephone apparatus; I

14 said telephone devices. That is much bigger than a regular telephone, the

15 regular apparatus that's used as a telephone. This is a telephone device,

16 a bigger one.

17 Q. Yes. It's obviously a question of translation because I also used

18 the same word, "device."

19 This device, it's a moveable one, it's not installed in the room

20 at the wall or fixed to the room, right?

21 A. I can't say. I didn't lift it or anything. I don't know whether

22 it's fixed to this table here.

23 Q. Did you see any telephone device of whatever sort installed in the

24 room fixed to the wall in addition to this device here?

25 A. I know that there is something on the wall belonging to these

Page 5438

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13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

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Page 5439

1 devices. If you're asking me whether I actually saw a receiver, I can't

2 say for sure, but there is some kind of an electrical thing which we

3 cannot see here in the picture now, but there is something.

4 Q. Can you describe it a little bit more detailed, what kind of

5 electrical device it was?

6 A. That's the only thing I can say. I don't know what the make, what

7 the brand is. I didn't look at these devices that carefully.

8 Q. Was it simply something you can plug in, a cable? Are you talking

9 about something like this?

10 A. Well, you can see it on the picture itself. This device has an

11 electric cable, a connecting cable, whatever. This is this yellowish

12 thing, the yellowish-brown thing that runs down the desk, that one that

13 I'm pointing at now, so that's it.

14 I have to say one more thing. You can see in the picture itself

15 on the floor of this room, there are different binders and electric

16 cables, so there is total disarray in this room, total chaos.

17 Q. We can move on to the next photo. That is your photo A9. Can you

18 show us where this room is on the floor plan?

19 A. I can. It's this little room here. I've shown it just now. May

20 I proceed?

21 Q. No, wait.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at this, at the part

23 of the room between the numbers 8 and 9, and he was pointing at that small

24 partition on the right-hand side of this room.

25 Q. That's photo A9, right? Yes. Yes.

Page 5440

1 A. Here.

2 Q. Was there any electrical device in there? I think you

3 mentioned -- you mentioned a small generator. Is that what you --

4 A. Right. I don't know whether it's called a generator, if that's

5 what you think it is, but this is a room that you -- I mean, we call this

6 batteries. That's why I remember this room so well, this smallest room

7 with the batteries. A battery is a source of energy, so, yes, we can call

8 it a generator, too, I guess. That was the question.

9 Q. Yes. And the rest of the room, what was in the rest of this room,

10 this other part of the same room?

11 A. It was some kind of cupboard, the one we can see on the picture

12 here, and there was something on it. So all of that was in that room.

13 I'll show you right now. These are the batteries here. They're quite

14 obvious. And these are the wires that go into the wall. This is part of

15 some kind of electric thing. And in addition to these batteries, this was

16 in the room, too, this, when I was there.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at these batteries

18 on the ground, on the floor of this room, in photo A9, and this kind of

19 cabinet that was there.

20 Q. But my question was actually related to the rest of --

21 A. Cupboard --

22 Q. My question was related to the part of the room that is not

23 photographed. I do not mean this small partition that you just explained

24 to us, but the rest of the room. You see between 8 and 9 is a room, part

25 of it is partitioned, and what was in the rest?

Page 5441

1 A. I'll explain right now. Now I'm going to tell you about a room, a

2 bigger room, where there are smaller rooms within it partitioned off, and

3 I'm going to show it to you on this floor plan.

4 From the main hallway, you enter --

5 Q. Witness, please. Please explain first what is in this room

6 between 8 and 9. Between the numbers 8 and 9, there is a bigger room, and

7 one part is partitioned where you said where the batteries were. What was

8 in the rest of the room?

9 A. Between pictures 8 and 9, what's the room between those two, is

10 that what you're asking me?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. This is this area here. But I wanted to explain --

13 Q. I want you to answer my questions.

14 A. It's this area here. Yes, it's this area here. Yes.

15 Q. What was there? What was it?

16 A. Some kind of table was there. The room was in total chaos,

17 disarray. It was a mess. The paint was peeled off the walls. Small

18 room. There was some furniture in there. I can't remember right now. I

19 know there was a table. In order to enter that room, there is a separate

20 door.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, may we

22 help the Prosecutor?

23 We saw that this room was omitted and then it was photographed

24 subsequently, before we came to The Hague, so we wanted to tender it

25 later. I do have a photograph of this room which was omitted

Page 5442

1 accidentally. So if the Prosecutor wishes to use it, she can. We wanted

2 to include it in the photo files, we wanted to add a number, but it was

3 simply omitted, and that's why we want to tender the photo file through

4 the photographer, but I can help by giving this photograph so that the

5 witness could identify whether that's the room he's talking about.

6 A. Yes, that's the little room that we're talking about. And you can

7 see the mess it's in. The walls are peeling. This is the table and then

8 lots of things on it, notebooks, binders. But as I say, it's in complete

9 disarray. And I was present when this particular photograph was taken.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

11 Q. Thank you. And I would like to show you now a floor plan that was

12 made by one of the witnesses in the Prosecution case, and it's

13 Exhibit 6/1A.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We have to move it, please. We need to see

15 that same left-hand section. Yes. Yes, that's okay.

16 A. I can see it. I see everything, yes.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

18 Q. Witness, if you see here on that left-hand side, you see that same

19 part of the building. And you can see next to the "WC" there is a room

20 which says "TEL." It's next to the "WC," and it's not --

21 A. You're asking me about that room?

22 Q. Do you have an explanation for the fact that in this sketch the

23 telephone device room is next to the toilet and in your explanation here

24 now you say it's not next to the toilet but it's the next room. Can you

25 give me an explanation?

Page 5443

1 JUDGE HUNT: Wait a moment. You're asking him to -- wait a

2 minute, sir.

3 You're asking him to explain the difference between the plan you

4 put and the one which the Defence puts.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, how can he do that? I wonder what the value of

7 all of this is, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. You can certainly ask him about the

8 documents that the Defence puts forward, but how can he explain why

9 somebody else has drawn it differently?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, you're right, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE HUNT: I really think that we should move on.

12 A. I apologise, Your Honours, but --

13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you. You can remove this.

15 Q. As we are working with the plan that you knew and saw, and you had

16 actually started to point out some other rooms, you wanted to explain

17 something in relation to the plan as such and I interrupted you. What did

18 you want to add?

19 A. Yes. I wanted to add the following: From the main hallway, this

20 one here, you first go into the area which is in three parts. This whole

21 room here that I'm indicating is composed of three parts, three sections.

22 I can say that because it is three sections, three separate sections.

23 This is a small corridor, and this is the room I identified with the

24 batteries, this is the room we've just seen on the ELMO, the one that's in

25 a mess, and then you go through this door into the other area. And this

Page 5444

1 whole area is divided from the WC that I identified and the switchboard

2 room. So this whole area is between those two.

3 Q. Yes, thank you.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was actually pointing and moving

5 around in the two rooms between 8 and 10.

6 Q. Yes, thank you. But as we are already with -- dealing with the

7 sketch, you see the room number -- with the number 4, it's hardly visible,

8 but there is the room number 4 in the sketch on the street side. Is this

9 room, is it the counter -- including the counter of the duty officer, or

10 is it the room next to this? Can you -- are you knowledgeable enough in

11 relation to the other rooms?

12 A. I couldn't say with any certainty.

13 Q. And did you go in any of the rooms on the left-hand side of the

14 corridor, that is, to the street? Did you go in any of these rooms?

15 A. I went into some of them.

16 Q. Which --

17 A. What I remember, I can tell you.

18 Q. I have just one question in relation to another room on the

19 left-hand side of the same corridor. In which of these rooms were the

20 iron rings where prisoners were locked to when they were -- for instance,

21 for sobering up. Do you know in which room were these iron rings?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. The witness

23 should first be asked if, when he was in those rooms, he saw any iron

24 rings there or not, if they existed or not, and not which rooms the iron

25 rings were in for the relevant period by virtue of the indictment when he

Page 5445

1 was not there.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I was waiting for you to say it was a leading

3 question, but of course you are entitled to ask leading questions in

4 cross-examination. But you have assumed something which has not been

5 accepted by the witness.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I suggest you do follow what Mr. Bakrac suggests --

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

9 JUDGE HUNT: -- and ask him did he see any iron rings, and then in

10 which room.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

12 Q. Did you see any iron rings in any of these rooms, fixed to the

13 floor?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you in all of the rooms?

16 A. I can't remember now. I think I went into them all. Are you

17 asking me about the rooms on the left --

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. -- or the right?

20 Q. On the left.

21 A. I think I went into all of them, and there were no iron rings on

22 the floor.

23 Q. We can now continue with the photos. You said that the photos --

24 you have explained the photo A6 and A8 -- sorry, A7 to A9, and that you

25 were present when they were taken. Any other photos that you were present

Page 5446

1 when they were taken?

2 A. A7, A9. I can't say exactly whether I was there or not because

3 there are a lot of photographs. Now, whether I was there at A12, I don't

4 know, but I can tell you what A12 represents, and I can also tell you what

5 A5 is because I was there on several occasions. But I can't -- that is to

6 say, I can identify the photographs and when they were taken, but I can't

7 say whether I was actually there.

8 Q. And --

9 A. If you want me to identify them, I shall be happy to do so, but I

10 can't claim that I was present when each of those photographs were taken,

11 to be absolutely exact.

12 Q. But in relation to the photo A5, this landing, this landing, is it

13 on the first floor or the ground floor? Do you know? Can you say?

14 A. You mean where these stairs are leading to? Is that your

15 question?

16 Q. No, the landing, the landing as such. The landing, is it on the

17 ground floor? The bottom, the bottom of the staircase, is it on the

18 ground floor or is it on the first floor?

19 A. Yes, I could tell you that, but when you go in, and we must bear

20 that in mind, when you enter the administration building of the Dom, for

21 you to go into some of the rooms there, it's a sort of space that there is

22 a stairway, so you have to go up some stairs, and then you come to this

23 open space. And this room and room A5 on the diagram, I can identify as

24 being the following: C1, it's C1. This picture, this picture corresponds

25 to this one here.

Page 5447

1 JUDGE HUNT: I wish you'd just answer the question. Is the foot

2 of the stairs that we see in that photograph A5, is that the ground floor

3 or the first floor?

4 A. The ground floor. That's what I could call it.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

6 Q. The ground floor, yes, thank you. And now I would like to show

7 the witness 7451 that was taken by the Prosecution investigators. It's

8 the bottom. Is that the same landing, actually the same spot?

9 A. I can't be sure whether it's the same or not. I'm not sure.

10 Q. Yes, thank you.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, usher.

12 Q. Can you point us to the next photo where you can give us an

13 explanation to, where you are sure what it is.

14 A. I mentioned the photograph numbered A12.

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. That is a room, but it doesn't look out onto the prison compound;

17 it looks out towards the outside.

18 Q. Is it on the sketch?

19 A. That is to say, on the left-hand side.

20 Q. Please put it on the ELMO, sir.

21 A. I know that the room I went into has two windows, and it was

22 called the room for visitors, visiting room. There are three rooms that I

23 went into, actually, where -- this was the room for visits. I am quite

24 sure there. Now, where on the diagram the other is exactly ...

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher --

Page 5448

1 A. Let me try. I'll try and point it out to you. I assume that that

2 should be room -- no, I can't. I'm not sure, I'm sorry.

3 Q. Maybe I can show you --

4 A. I think that this room for visits, I don't think it's on the plan

5 at all. Perhaps it's in another wing. I seem to remember that it's in a

6 different wing altogether, but I do know for sure that the photograph is

7 that room used for visits with the two windows, but I can't find it on

8 this plan. I think it's in another wing. And when I say another wing, if

9 you go in here, if you enter here, I don't know whether it's on the left

10 down that hallway, or on the right.

11 Q. Witness, let me show you the Prosecution Exhibit 6/1A. Maybe this

12 assists you more.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Why are we going into this? Is there some issue

14 about any of this, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff? Is the Prosecution --

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I assume -- the problem is that I assume that

16 the Defence will use this photo, and I will like to know what it is.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. And where it is, certainly.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Where it is.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And that is why I would like him to point it

21 out.

22 JUDGE HUNT: One hopes that the photographer will have a very

23 careful note of where he took each of the photographs. You're entitled to

24 ask, but the moment the witness starts to say "I assume" something, I

25 wonder what the value of it is.

Page 5449

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Page 5450

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The only problem that I see, Your Honour, is

2 that we can never be sure if the witnesses from Foca actually come. I

3 mean --

4 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's right. That means that the Defence will

5 be in terrible trouble. They're not trying to use this witness for this

6 purpose. Why should you worry?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Okay, Your Honour. I just wanted to be --

8 JUDGE HUNT: But all means, you continue. Where the witness can

9 help us, it may be of some assistance, but when he's merely assuming

10 something, I really don't think the value of the evidence which you get is

11 worth the trouble.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, okay.

13 Q. We continue with the photos where you were present. We leave this

14 photo number 12. Please tell us if you were present while any other of

15 the photos were made, and we will only discuss these photos now.

16 A. I said a moment ago on the basis of my recollections - because you

17 asked me about all the photographs, if I remember correctly, you asked me

18 about them all, I think, yes, 7, 8, 9, 5 - there's a big difference

19 between whether I can identify something and whether I was actually

20 present. There's a difference there, distinction.

21 Q. Then let me just ask you in relation to -- no. No. No. All my

22 questions relate to the standpoint of the photographer, so you could not

23 assist us. Thank you.

24 I have no more questions in relation to the photos or the floor

25 plan. I just have a few questions, a few more questions.

Page 5451

1 You have told us that Mr. Bozidar Krnojelac provided one document

2 to you. That's the ICRC document. Did he provide more documents to you

3 as well, other documents as well? Mr. Bozidar. We are talking about

4 Mr. Bozidar Krnojelac.

5 A. No. I think I said, with respect to the Red Cross document, the

6 following -- let me just find it. What was the number of the document?

7 Q. I'm not asking about this document. We have already discussed it

8 in detail. I just want to know, did you receive other documents from

9 Mr. Bozidar Krnojelac as well?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he explained who he

11 obtained each document from, so I see no reason for this question. All

12 the documents presented and later tendered, the witness did give us the

13 source. So I don't see why this question should be asked. And he did

14 explain this particular document as well.

15 A. This document was sent by fax.

16 JUDGE HUNT: That is not really the point of the question. The

17 question may very well be answered: "I received no other documents," but

18 the witness can be asked that.

19 You proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

21 Q. Would you please answer my question. Did Mr. Bozidar Krnojelac

22 provide other documents as well?

23 A. As far as I remember, no. As far as I remember, perhaps, but I

24 don't know. There was a lot of work in Foca. What document are you

25 referring to, apart from this one here? Perhaps that would help me

Page 5452

1 remember, if you ask about a particular document.

2 Q. You have actually left out a lot of documents that Mr. Krnojelac

3 signed personally, and I can -- if you like, I can go through all these

4 documents, but I don't think that Mr. Bakrac would like that.

5 Did you receive any of these documents from Mr. Bozidar?

6 A. As far as I remember, I did not get any. I can't remember

7 exactly, but no. Probably you're thinking about a set of, say, 10, 20

8 documents; is that right?

9 Q. Right. These documents that are actually signed by

10 Mr. Krnojelac.

11 A. No. I don't remember that he -- no, I'm not certain he gave me

12 anything. I really can't say.

13 Q. Who gave you these documents, these documents that we have not yet

14 entered into evidence, this set that you just mentioned, 10 to 20

15 documents? Who gave them to you?

16 A. I didn't say he gave them to me. I don't understand your

17 question.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think you yourself

19 said that when we introduce the documents by the accused, we'll go into

20 them then. I think that that was stated. And this refers to the

21 documents that we would introduce via Mr. Krnojelac, and that it was said

22 that the source for those documents would be explained at that point in

23 time.

24 JUDGE HUNT: It depends, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, what you mean by

25 "these documents." When you said it, I thought you meant other

Page 5453

1 documents, but when I read it in the transcript, it's a little bit less

2 clear. "Who gave you these documents?" You mean the ones signed by

3 Mr. Krnojelac --

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

5 JUDGE HUNT: -- that the -- that we are told Mr. Krnojelac will

6 identify when he gives evidence?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, because it's another

8 question --

9 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, no. I just want to know, first of all, you

10 do rely on those?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

12 JUDGE HUNT: And you're seeking to obtain their provenance?

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. The question is allowed.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

16 Q. Will you please answer? Who gave you these documents, these

17 particular documents that Mr. Krnojelac signed?

18 A. You mean the ones that have been entered, the ID D numbers, or the

19 ones which haven't?

20 Q. Just those who were not yet entered.

21 A. Those not entered, ah. Well, I didn't say at all that the

22 documents that have not been tendered that I obtained them. I think

23 that's what you want to know. I didn't say at all. I don't know what the

24 transcript was, but I didn't say that I had received any documents which

25 hadn't been tendered.

Page 5454

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

2 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment, please. May I suggest that you use a

3 term other than "entered" or "tendered," because there is going to be some

4 form of confusion between those which are given merely an ID D number and

5 those which have become exhibits in the case. And if I may say so,

6 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it hasn't been helped by you referring to some of

7 those as Defence exhibits. They're not exhibits.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

9 JUDGE HUNT: But you want to know in relation to those documents

10 which remain in the folder which the Defence has produced but which have

11 not yet been made exhibits in the case. Is that what you're after?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

13 JUDGE HUNT: I think you should make it clear, because I think

14 there's a terminology there that is open to confusion. At least, I've

15 noticed that throughout the whole of this trial.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Now, wait a minute. Mr. Bakrac wanted to say

18 something.

19 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I my say, they are

21 different documents. Perhaps the sources are different. So if my learned

22 colleague is asking, and I have nothing against her asking about the

23 documents and individually, but why doesn't she ask for each individual

24 document? Because when we say "set of documents," they can be from

25 different sources. They can refer to different things. So let's get down

Page 5455

1 to specifics. And could my learned colleague ask the witness about each

2 individual document, because this way we're generalising and the witness

3 doesn't know which documents the Prosecution means.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I think Mr. Bakrac has got a point there, because you

5 can't assume they're all the same source.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. You're right, Your Honour. However, I

7 would need a short break to -- I would need a few minutes.

8 JUDGE HUNT: How long do you need?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, it's very brief. I just have to find the

10 first one and then I have the whole series.

11 Yes. It starts actually -- it starts, actually, with document

12 number 66, ID D66.

13 Q. Witness, you see now the document. Do you have the document

14 ID D66 in front of you?

15 A. Yes, I have it. If you're asking me whether I obtained this

16 document from Bozidar Krnojelac, the answer is no.

17 Q. I asked you who gave it to you. You have already explained that

18 you didn't get such things from him. So who gave it to you?

19 A. I obtained this document myself from a source, from the command of

20 the Srbinje Garrison, and I identified him by giving the rank of captain.

21 I said he was a captain. And I was also told not to disclose his first

22 and last name. So that is my answer to document 66.

23 Q. And the following documents, that is, 66/1 and 66/2, is that the

24 same source?

25 A. What is 66/1 and 66/2? Is that a statement?

Page 5456

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. What's wrong?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm always afraid when

4 looking at your reaction, but nothing's wrong. I just want to help the

5 Prosecution.

6 If the problem is authenticity, then I have the original of the

7 document. So what we want to do is to assist the Prosecution if they're

8 questioning authenticity. We can present them with the original

9 document. But we did not tender it, and it's not our fault, because we

10 wanted to introduce it through Mr. Krnojelac, and we have the original.

11 That's it.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we are not disputing

13 authenticity at all and it's not a question at this point in time. The

14 only fact that we want to find out from the witness is who gave him

15 documents. And he has already described the military people who gave them

16 to him. He described other sources like government sources, but I would

17 like to know which other sources he had.

18 JUDGE HUNT: But just before you do that, the document that is

19 being passed along appears to have a stamp on it, does it?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

21 JUDGE HUNT: That doesn't turn out in the copy of 66 that I've

22 got.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are two copies of

24 the original, one with a stamp and the other one where it can be seen it

25 was received. That is why the Defence photocopied that copy where it can

Page 5457

1 be seen that it was received and with a date and everything else. So

2 that's the copy that we copied.

3 Your Honour, if you permit me just one more thing. If, if

4 authenticity is not being challenged, I don't see why the Prosecutor is

5 looking for the source, the person who gave the document. Why is the

6 source important if the authenticity is not being questioned? The witness

7 already said that he obtained this from a person who wished to remain

8 anonymous for his own reasons. I understand that it is important when

9 authenticity is being challenged, but this way --

10 JUDGE HUNT: What is the issue to which this cross-examination is

11 going, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The issue that the Prosecution wants to

13 obtain from this witness is to find out his sources for the document.

14 JUDGE HUNT: What is the relevance of these sources if you're not

15 challenging the authenticity of the documents?

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We are not challenging the authenticity but

17 we challenge the content, the content of certain documents. And the

18 source of the documents is a point when we speak about the reliability and

19 the eventual value of a document.

20 JUDGE HUNT: But the only relevance of the document to the Defence

21 case is that he signed the document asking for the release of prisoners of

22 war. Now, are you suggesting that that wasn't on the document when he

23 signed it? Because if you are, you are challenging the authenticity. If

24 not, I'm not sure what the relevance of the source is. Provenance means

25 the authenticity, where it came from, how it was found. Are you

Page 5458

1 challenging that he signed that document?

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We're not challenging that he signed this

3 document.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, what's the relevance of the source?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The question is, was it signed on the 30th of

6 July, 1992, or was it produced on a later date?

7 JUDGE HUNT: Oh. Well, then you are challenging the authenticity

8 of the document, aren't you?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, sir.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. You are challenging the authenticity because

11 you say it may well not have been signed on the 30th of July, 1992. Well,

12 then, you proceed.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But, Your Honour, I just want to shorten --

14 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. If you are challenging the authenticity of

15 the document, you are entitled to know where he got it from.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This --

17 JUDGE HUNT: You made a concession you should not have made,

18 that's all.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. No, the question is if the challenge

20 will be upheld if we have additional information. That's the point.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Of course. But you are entitled at this stage to ask

22 this witness questions because you want to challenge its authenticity.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, yes.

24 Q. You did not yet answer the question where you got this document.

25 Is it the same source, the documents 66/1 and 66/2, is it the same source,

Page 5459

1 this Captain?

2 A. I'm just wondering about one thing: 66/1 and 66/2, are these two

3 different things? Could I please have a look at them? That's what I

4 asked for a few minutes ago as well.

5 Q. I thought you would have these documents in front of you. If not,

6 we can provide it. It's not a problem.

7 A. Yes, I see the documents now. These are statements of Sadic

8 Demirovic, as it says in the upper left-hand corner, and Pasovic Ismet.

9 One is dated the 30th of July, 1992 --

10 Q. You don't need to explain that. We can all read it. Did you

11 receive these documents from the same source?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And actually, the next, the next documents on the Defence list are

14 67 and 67/1, related to similar, similar matters. Did you receive them as

15 well from this Captain that you mentioned?

16 A. Yes, yes, if I remember well.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I shall offer this

18 original document again if it will be helpful to the Prosecutor.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's not. It's not, Mr. Bakrac, at the

20 moment.

21 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure what you're attempting to do,

22 Mr. Bakrac. You are probably trying to assist, but I don't see how it

23 does. We are concerned at the moment with the source of these documents,

24 and there is, in fact, a challenge to their authenticity, so these

25 questions are going to be asked whether you provide the original or not.

Page 5460

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Page 5461

1 I think all those originals better go back, I think they'd better all go

2 back to Mr. Bakrac.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

4 Q. Mr. Dundjer, the next document is number 80, document ID D80, and

5 I would like to know how you obtained this document.

6 A. I'm not sure that I'm the person who got this document. Let me

7 just read it, though, just to remind myself. I cannot say with certainty

8 that I was the person who received it.

9 Q. The following two documents, that is, ID D81 and ID D82, did you

10 receive these documents? Could you tell us from whom?

11 A. I can't say right now, no. Sorry, just a minute, please. I stand

12 by the answer I've already given you.

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. I'm not sure that I'm the one who got it.

15 Q. And the next document is number 85, ID D85. Did you receive this

16 document?

17 A. Just a moment, please. It's pretty long, so it takes time to read

18 it. I cannot claim that I was the one who got it.

19 Q. Do you remember who got it? Who gave it to you -- who got it? Do

20 you remember who got it?

21 A. I can't remember.

22 Q. Okay.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are actually the documents

24 that I wanted to ask the witness about, about the source.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

Page 5462

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

2 Q. You said already that you did not receive other documents from

3 Mr. Bozidar Krnojelac. Did you -- did Mr. Bozidar Krnojelac assist you in

4 your investigation?

5 A. I have to say something which I've said already at the beginning.

6 People who had good intentions in Foca helped to the best of their

7 ability. The entire family, Bozidar included, everybody helped to the

8 best of their ability, and the other sons and friends, everybody.

9 I already explained that it was very difficult for us to obtain

10 documents. Officially, we could hardly get a thing. We went to about ten

11 towns, Bileca, Trebinje, Pale, not to enumerate all of them now. We tried

12 to obtain documents, and they helped.

13 Q. In which way?

14 A. Bozidar helped, too.

15 Q. In which way? What exactly did they do?

16 A. Well, you know, I'd come to Foca. I'm not from Foca and so on and

17 so forth. Then I have to see some people from whom I was supposed to take

18 statements and things like that, and then I needed to have appointments

19 made to look at documents. I'd look at these documents.

20 Several times I was there, I sat there and I was with Bozidar

21 Krnojelac, the son, and all the other sons, and everybody else. They

22 helped. They would give me necessary information, like the telephone

23 number of a person I was supposed to interview in Foca, for example.

24 That's just something I'm mentioning by way of an example.

25 Then as for the witnesses, I mean - how should I put this? - I

Page 5463

1 mainly took their statements, say, at the Cafe Gong, the one that is owned

2 by this other son, and then this other cafe - what's it called? - Uno or

3 whatever, Bozidar Krnojelac's cafe, I was in the premises there. They

4 helped me. They would book a hotel for us where we were supposed to stay,

5 things like that. So they made it possible for me to speed up the

6 contacts I was supposed to establish with various persons.

7 Q. And Cafe Gong, that is in the house of Mr. Krnojelac, right?

8 A. Well, how should I put it? It is the ground floor, and there are

9 two entrances. One is the entrance to the cafe. If you go in from the

10 river side, first you enter the cafe, and then there is a different

11 entrance for the house, but it's both on the ground floor. I mean, all of

12 it is together. Well, there is sort of an annex that was added later on,

13 and it has lots of glass windows, and it faces the neighbour's yard. And

14 this other cafe is across the street from the bus station.

15 Q. And you said this is Mr. Bozidar's cafe, or did I mishear you?

16 A. Well, whether he is the actual owner, whether the shop is

17 registered in his name, I assume that it's registered in the name of his

18 company, but he certainly behaves like the owner in there. I mean, he

19 works there and then he sells liquor and whatever, but I don't know who

20 owns the building.

21 Q. And while you conducted the interviews, was in a guest room or in

22 a separate room?

23 A. Well, how should I explain this? This was for the most part at

24 the Cafe Gong, and when you enter it, on the left-hand side you go to the

25 end, and then there is a little -- well, it's, it's not a separate room

Page 5464

1 altogether. It's not that there's a door or something, but it's sort of

2 partitioned. How should I put this? There's some kind of a fireplace,

3 and then it's a bit more secluded so then you can talk there quietly.

4 With all the people that I had meetings with, I met them there for the

5 most part. I can't remember exactly. I talked to so many people.

6 Perhaps I met other people elsewhere, but most of them I met here.

7 Then we slept at Brioni, and we slept there, and there's a

8 restaurant there and a cafeteria, and then we interviewed some people

9 there as well. We also had some meetings there.

10 I have to say one more thing. Especially because Foca is a small

11 town and because of all the problems that I have already explained, we had

12 to do some things secretly, and I had to do it, and that is why I took it

13 upon myself not to disclose certain things. It's not that I asked for

14 closed session, for protection of identity and things like that, but you

15 have to understand what I'm trying to tell you. In order to get

16 something, a proper law office would send a request to, say, ten different

17 places and actually get answers, but we could not handle things that way.

18 Q. You mentioned already that Mrs. Rada Krnojelac was present during

19 interviews. Did she also ask questions, or was she just present?

20 A. Well, I have to say that Rada was present when we carried out

21 these interviews, but as for the vast majority of the questions and

22 everything, I don't think she really intervened or interfered. She was

23 just present there. I already explained what her task was, to contact

24 people from Foca. She lives in the centre of Foca. I can't remember the

25 name of the building right now, where the ground floor -- where there's a

Page 5465

1 shop in the ground floor.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. Yes. So she was present, but she did not put any questions.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Perhaps sometimes some little thing.

6 Q. And just one more issue: You mentioned that you actually tried to

7 find out who was the person responsible, who was the actual warden for the

8 part where the Muslims were detained. And what did you find out? What

9 did you find out? Who was the warden of this part?

10 A. Madam Prosecutor, we heard -- during these statements that were

11 given by witnesses, we heard various names, sometimes even persons from

12 the military who were responsible in the KP Dom were mentioned. However,

13 I have to bring something to your attention and to the attention of the

14 Court, please. I was told then that certain witnesses would seek, in part

15 or entirely - I don't know, I can't say that with any certainty now - that

16 they would require closed sessions so that they would give names or

17 whatever.

18 So the statements that I took were fair and proper. They were

19 signed in my presence by these people. But I think that it is really for

20 them to come here and to speak to the Court. You have the statement that

21 I signed as well.

22 Q. Witness, I was asking you actually for the result of your

23 investigation. And you are a lawyer, and you probably --

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

Page 5466

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is an investigator who

2 found witnesses, conveyed what the witnesses said, and as far as I

3 understood him, he said that he faithfully wrote down what they said.

4 A. They signed this in front of me.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] He cannot take over their role and

6 mention the names that they mentioned. I don't think that we can ask this

7 witness to do that. He is not a fact witness in that respect. The

8 Prosecutor can ask him whether what is written down in the statement is

9 what the witness has told him or not, but he cannot be a witness that will

10 give names and then perhaps the witnesses, when they come here, will ask

11 that they -- will require closed session in order to give these names.

12 A. This is what these people told me.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm not -- I don't see why the

14 Prosecutor insists on him saying the names that have already been written

15 down in the statements when the Prosecutor will have firsthand witnesses

16 who will be called and who will be coming here. Why ask this witness to

17 testify about that?

18 JUDGE HUNT: You will remember, Mr. Bakrac, that your

19 cross-examination and that of Mr. Vasic used to start off by saying,

20 "You've given a number of statements in this matter, haven't you?" and

21 then you sought to show that there were inconsistencies in it.

22 Now, what the Prosecutor is asking is what these witnesses, these

23 proposed witnesses of yours, said to him. And it may be that what he will

24 say they said will be different to what they say here in court. Why can't

25 the Prosecutor do that? You had the opportunity of doing it because

Page 5467

1 everything was put in writing, but here it was not.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, statements of

3 Prosecution witnesses were taken by several different investigators so

4 that we make an omission. Were we supposed to call each and every one of

5 these investigators, even those from the Bosnian Muslim Federation,

6 whether what the witness statement says is what this witness actually

7 said? So are we supposed to call in the investigators to testify as

8 well?

9 JUDGE HUNT: I hope that you haven't deliberately misstated what I

10 put to you. You cross-examined Prosecution witnesses on what you asserted

11 were inconsistent statements that they'd made to the evidence they gave in

12 court, didn't you? Didn't you? The answer to that must be "Yes." And

13 the reason for it was to demonstrate, you hope, that we will not believe

14 what they say here in court.

15 Now, the Prosecution is entitled to proceed in exactly the same

16 way in relation to the Defence witnesses, except that it doesn't have the

17 benefit of the disclosure by the Defence of every statement, oral or

18 written, that a proposed witness has made.

19 So what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff is doing is asking this witness who

20 your proposed witnesses identified to him was the asserted warden of the

21 relevant part of the KP Dom.

22 I see no difference in principle between what you have been doing

23 throughout the trial and what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff is attempting to do.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but we asked

25 witnesses about their very own statements, about what they had stated

Page 5468

1 themselves. We did not ask an investigator about that, what witnesses had

2 said. We asked every witness is that his statement and why he had put

3 certain things this way or that way.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not going to explain to you the difference

5 between the benefit to you of having something in writing and the lack of

6 a benefit to the Prosecution, but can you tell me why the Prosecutor

7 cannot ascertain the same material that you were provided with in relation

8 to the Prosecution witnesses?

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, but we have provided the

10 Office of the Prosecutor with witness statements, Defence witness

11 statements.

12 JUDGE HUNT: And the Prosecutor now seeks to find out whether they

13 told this witness something different.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Perhaps the Defence doesn't

15 understand, but we believe -- actually, I said already that the witness

16 had said that these were names he did not want to give himself. These are

17 names that are in the statements.

18 So perhaps in closed session we can try to handle this and see

19 whether the witness can give all the names.

20 JUDGE HUNT: That may be the simplest way. I was going to suggest

21 perhaps he could write them down, but we might go into closed session at

22 2.30. We'll adjourn now.

23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

24

25

Page 5469

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it seems preferable,

3 certainly it's more efficient, if we go into closed session while you ask

4 these questions.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE HUNT: So you'll let us know, will you, when you've finished

7 on this particular subject matter.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We have only this one matter left.

9 JUDGE HUNT: I see. Well, we'll go into closed session now.

10 [Closed session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5470

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12 Pages 5470 to 5472 redacted closed session.

13

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22

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24

25

Page 5473

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

10 Q. Mr. Dundjer, I assume that you talked -- to perform your job, you

11 talked to as many people as you could, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you wrote down what the witnesses told you, right?

14 A. Right. I wrote it down accurately and showed them the statement

15 to ask them whether that was what they said, and they confirmed that that

16 indeed was their statement and then signed.

17 Q. And only (redacted) name came up as possible warden of the

18 military part?

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We've just mentioned the name for

22 which we went into private session. So I don't see the purpose.

23 JUDGE HUNT: It can be redacted.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry.

25 Q. The person number 11 that we just talked about, his name -- his

Page 5474

1 name was the only name that came up for this position of warden?

2 A. No, no, no. I did not say -- I did not say the position. I just

3 said that the name was mentioned. The name that was mentioned was

4 mentioned.

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. And I said, more or less, what that person was in charge of.

7 JUDGE HUNT: But you were asked: Was that the only name that was

8 mentioned to you by anybody as fulfilling that particular position?

9 A. I didn't learn of any other name in that way, in that connection.

10 There is the other name that I mentioned during private session. That

11 person, too, had a function, a position, but not with respect to what we

12 were discussing and what I said in answer to your question. So this name

13 was the only name.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I don't know which name it actually --

15 JUDGE HUNT: I have no idea what it is you are talking about. It

16 may be simpler if we go back into private session to get this sorted out.

17 I'd stay in private session until you've got this subject matter sorted

18 out.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes. It's the only subject matter,

20 Your Honour, that's left.

21 JUDGE HUNT: It should be -- I'm sorry, it should be in closed

22 session. It should be in closed session.

23 [Closed session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5475

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 5475 to 5477 redacted closed session.

13

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22

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Page 5478

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as my learned colleague

17 showed the photographs, the Defence wished to complete the process, if the

18 need for photographs occurs later on. So may I just show the witness one

19 of the latest photographs that we were not -- that wasn't ready on time to

20 be included in the file. I think it's a better one because it shows the

21 whole wall and the windows.

22 So I just have a few questions in conformity with C1, Exhibit C1,

23 just to tell us which window belongs to which room. That's all I have to

24 ask him.

25 JUDGE HUNT: You go ahead.

Page 5479

1 Re-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dundjer, take a look at this photograph,

3 please. It hasn't been marked, unfortunately, but I hope we'll agree --

4 we'll reach an agreement with the Prosecution later on and be able to

5 identify the photograph and then mark it for identification later on.

6 But tell me, on the ground floor, how many windows do you see,

7 looking at the photograph from left to right?

8 A. Well, it's like this: This is the door, this is one window, the

9 second window, the third window, the fourth window, the fifth window, the

10 sixth window, and the seventh window.

11 Q. As you have --

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, but for

13 the record, the witness pointed out the windows from left to right and

14 counted seven windows in all.

15 Q. The first window, Witness, can you identify the room which is

16 behind that first window?

17 A. Behind the first window is a room. The door and the window belong

18 to the same room. This was a metal door, and from it, you come out into

19 the compound.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has

21 indicated window number one and the metal door on the photograph on the

22 left-hand side.

23 Could the usher show the witness Exhibit C1 now, please.

24 Q. Can you tell us, please, Witness, looking at this floor plan,

25 where that window is?

Page 5480

1 A. On this floor plan, you can see all the rooms, including this

2 particular window and door, and I'm going to start from this end. This is

3 the metal door.

4 Q. Mr. Dundjer, just briefly, please, Mr. Dundjer. Don't repeat

5 everything.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness has

7 indicated the area underneath number 6, the 6 with a circle around it on

8 Exhibit C1.

9 May we have the photograph again now, please.

10 Q. Mr. Dundjer, window number two --

11 JUDGE HUNT: We still haven't got number one marked on the map,

12 have we? He showed us where the metal door was, and he had showed us that

13 before. Now, I didn't understand him to be saying where that first window

14 was.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Dundjer, could you indicate the window to us, window number

17 one, please.

18 A. Window number one is here.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating the first

20 room underneath the number 6, the thick black line right next to the

21 entrance door.

22 Q. Mr. Dundjer, the second window, window number two, what's behind

23 that window, looking at it from the left? When I say window number two,

24 I'm counting from left to right.

25 A. This is window number two. It is the window of the room where the

Page 5481

1 WC was. That's it. And --

2 JUDGE HUNT: Is that the one between 7 and 8 which is marked "WC"?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Dundjer, I'm asking you to show me the next first window. So

5 I want the first door after the metal door, what room is next?

6 A. The room after the metal door is the area with the staircase.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating the area

8 underneath number 7 and between numbers 6 and 7, and stairs are marked

9 into the plan.

10 Q. Witness, can you show me that window on the photograph now,

11 please.

12 A. It is this window here.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing to the second

14 window from the left.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I don't want there to be any confusion

16 about this, but if you look at that photograph, or at least so far as I

17 can see it on the screen, just near to the first window you'll see there

18 appears to be some sort of a mark there, and it may be that the wall comes

19 out slightly. I can't remember. We'd better check it against one of the

20 Prosecution photographs taken from the other angle or from a more direct

21 angle to see whether that is also a window.

22 Perhaps the Prosecution team can help us with that. There are a

23 number of photographs that we've seen shown from the -- taken from the

24 number one building.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that on

Page 5482

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5

6

7

8

9

10

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12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 5483

1 photograph A2 we can see right next to that first window, the window from

2 the metal door, this protrusion.

3 JUDGE HUNT: It's a pipe and it's throwing a shadow. Thank you

4 very much. I'm sorry to --

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

6 JUDGE HUNT: -- have bought into it, but I didn't want there to be

7 mistake later about it.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, do I need to show A2? I

9 don't think I need to because we've just said it's a pipe.

10 JUDGE HUNT: We've seen what it was. So we still have yet to

11 discover whereabouts he is pointing for the next window. Is it just

12 below 7 or is it just above 7? He said, I thought, that it is where the

13 WC is, and the WC, according to that map, is marked between 7 and 8.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a floor plan,

15 and I have to explain this. This was a floor plan that we obtained from

16 the boiler room, and these dark, thick lines are radiators, and they don't

17 superimpose, but I could identify the windows from them because the

18 radiators are usually underneath a window. But in this small room, it

19 divides the two windows. So there could be some confusion there.

20 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. I'm sorry, but the witness pointed to where

21 the staircase was when he said it was the first window, but he also said

22 it was where the WC was. Now, there are two different places. So I

23 wanted to know whether he was accurate in putting them on the stairs or

24 whether he meant the next room.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

Page 5484

1 Q. Sir, this second window from the left, is it the window which is

2 where the staircase is?

3 A. Are you asking me about this window here?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. That is the window to this area where the staircase is.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness has pointed to the second

7 window where the staircase is and he indicated that in an area which on

8 Exhibit C1 is marked as "10/15." Would that be the best way to identify

9 it?

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, that's adequate.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Dundjer, tell me now, moving from the left, window number

13 three, what is the room behind that window?

14 A. If this is the third window --

15 Q. That's right, yes.

16 A. -- then that is the window to this room here.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing to a room

18 between numbers 7 and 8, where it says "WC." And in the circle, it says

19 "11/20" something.

20 Q. Mr. Dundjer, behind the fourth window, what room is there?

21 A. You're asking me what is behind this window; is that right?

22 Q. Yes, window number four, moving from left to right.

23 A. Behind that window, as I explained today, is this area, this

24 room. And as I explained today, it is composed of one battery section,

25 another small section where -- a completely messy section with a

Page 5485

1 photograph on the wall, and a small hallway.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness has pointed to the room

3 between numbers 8 and 9 on Exhibit C1. It is a room divided into two, and

4 the first is numbered 11/20 and the second is numbered 13/20.

5 May I ask the usher now to show the witness photograph A9, and the

6 witness can tell us whether this partitioned room shares a window, whether

7 the partition is in between two windows.

8 A. A9 is a photograph of the room that I marked here. It's this room

9 here where the batteries are. And the batteries -- I mean since this is a

10 biggish window, we can see here in the photograph that part of one side

11 can be seen and part of the other side.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Thank you.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I think the witness is saying, and it's anything but

15 clear the way he puts it, but he's saying yes, it was the one window and

16 the two rooms share it. Is that the way that you interpreted what he

17 said? I wish he would say it just as simply.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. My question was

19 whether this room which is partitioned ...

20 Q. Please be so kind as to tell me about the other window, window

21 number five. What is behind window number five?

22 A. Behind window number five is a room which leans against these

23 two. So it's this room here.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating the room

25 between numbers 9 and 10 respectively, which has a circle in the middle

Page 5486

1 where it says "14/20."

2 A. Should I show it on the photograph as well?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. No, no, no. Just say --

5 JUDGE HUNT: It's the photograph A8.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, photograph A8. We

7 gave a photograph which shows the space between 8 and 9, this left part of

8 the divided one. I don't know where it is, so that's why I haven't

9 presented it.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Don't worry about that. Let's get on to the next

11 one. The sixth window, please.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Tell me, behind window number six, which room is there?

14 A. Are you asking me about this window, behind this window?

15 Q. Yes, that one.

16 A. That one, you mean?

17 Q. Yes, that one.

18 A. That is the room that has -- it's called an office and it has a

19 little table there, some little chairs. Again it's a total mess, with

20 papers scattered all about.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating the room to

22 the left of number 10, which has a circle in the middle, and in this

23 circle, it says "15/20."

24 Q. And tell me, finally, the last window, what's behind this last

25 window on the photograph that we've shown you?

Page 5487

1 A. That's this window here. That is to say, this is this room where

2 that window is. In this room, it's a bit bigger than the previous room, a

3 bit bigger, and there are files there, binders, some kind of archives,

4 something like that.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness is

6 indicating the room that has a circle marked "16/20" in the middle, and he

7 is showing the window below number 11.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Well, this is the one part of the wall I think which

9 comes out fairly clearly on our copies and it appears to have two windows

10 in the room with a column in between.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I've mentioned to

12 you that these thick lines are radiators. If you look at A3, you will see

13 that on the ground floor there is no room -- there is no -- there is no

14 windows, and on the first and second floor, along that line, there are

15 windows. We are going to show A3, photograph A3 to the witness.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. Can you see along the lines that

17 form the wall? There are four lines which appear to demonstrate windows

18 and there is a pillar in the middle of what appears to be two windows in

19 that room opposite number 11. Have you got a photograph of that

20 particular room?

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think -- I mean I

22 haven't got a photograph of this room here now, but I can give it to you

23 at later stage. I think that there is a photograph of this room as well.

24 But it's my mistake. It's true that there is a pillar.

25 So can the witness just tell us exactly on this wall where the

Page 5488

1 window is in this room?

2 A. Are we talking about this room?

3 Q. Yes, the last one.

4 A. The window of this room is this one here.

5 Q. Can you show it to us on the floor plan, on this sketch?

6 A. It's here, approximately.

7 JUDGE HUNT: And he's showing right across what appears to be a

8 pillar. Can we mark it as that, seventh window. I suggest that that

9 photograph be marked for identification 7, marked for identification 7 so

10 we can understand it in the transcript later. When you tender it, it will

11 be given a new number, but we'll call it for the moment "marked for

12 identification 7."

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with the assistance of

14 the usher, can one see in A3 whether this window is open or closed on the

15 ground floor, but I agree, we'll see the photograph.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. To the right of the last window.

18 A. On which picture?

19 Q. On picture A3. Can you see this last window here?

20 A. Are we talking about the ground floor?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. This window?

23 Q. Yes. Can you see a window on the right-hand side, and does it

24 seem to be closed, or does it seem as if it were never opened? Above that

25 area on the second and the first floor, are there any windows at all?

Page 5489

1 A. I can say that on the right, this side, from this window there are

2 no windows.

3 Q. And what about the first and the second floors above; are there

4 any windows along that same line?

5 A. Yes, I can say that above this window there are.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness indicated on photograph

7 A3 that on the ground floor at the very end of the building viewed from

8 the left towards the right, there are no windows, while along the same

9 line on the second and first floors, there are windows.

10 A. It's these two.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions of this

12 witness, thank you.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You may leave

14 now.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Slobodan Solaja is our

17 next witness, and he will be examined by Mr. Vasic.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you please make the solemn declaration set

22 out in the document which is being handed to you.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 WITNESS: SLOBODAN SOLAJA

Page 5490

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

3 Yes, Mr. Vasic.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Solaja.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. First of all, I would like to ask you the following: Since we

9 speak the same language, could you please pause after I put my question

10 and wait for the question to be interpreted so that the Honourable Judges

11 and my learned colleagues could follow what I am saying and what you're

12 saying. So please pause before answering my questions.

13 Tell us, please, what is your name and surname.

14 A. I am Slobodan Solaja. I was born on the 16th of May, 1942, in

15 Orahovo, the municipality of Foca. I completed primary school in Orahovo,

16 and then I did my vocational training in Foca. My first job was in 1962

17 in Maglic; however, I went to work in the town bakery in 1965, and I

18 worked as a baker until 1984. In 1984, I became manager, and I have been

19 in that position until the present day.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. Are you married? Have you got any children?

21 A. I'm married and I have two sons.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, in 1992, did you live in Foca?

23 A. Yes, I lived in Foca in 1992. I worked at the bakery. On that

24 day --

25 Q. Just a minute, sir. Tell me, please, in which neighbourhood did

Page 5491

1 you live in Foca in 1992?

2 A. In Livade. Well, it's called Livade.

3 Q. Again, please pause after my question briefly so that the

4 interpreters could do their job properly.

5 Let's go back to the 8th of April, 1992. Tell me, on the 7th of

6 April, 1992, did somebody phone you to tell you that you would not be

7 going to work on the next day?

8 A. Well, this is the way it was: My workers, my bakery, did work on

9 the 7th of April. You know, we bakers work at night. We always work at

10 night.

11 Now, since all my men, my workers, were at the bakery, they called

12 me during the night, and they said, "Please don't come. There is

13 something strange going on in town."

14 Q. I beg your pardon, could you please slow down a bit. I'm afraid

15 that it's going to be a bit too quick for the interpreters.

16 A. In the morning, I set out by car, went to work, and as I started

17 going down Donje Polje, a Muslim barricade stopped me by the Cafe Bor.

18 Q. Sir, I asked you whether somebody phoned you the previous day to

19 tell you not to go to work. I did not ask you which way you went to work.

20 A. But they called me during the night. My workers called me during

21 the night so that I would not go to work during the night because there

22 was something strange going on in town.

23 Q. Thank you. But you went to work nevertheless. Which way did you

24 go?

25 A. I took the main road, and then when I came to the Cafe Bor, that

Page 5492

1 is on my way to the bakery, a barricade was there, a Muslim barricade, and

2 that stopped me. And they stopped me there and they sent me back.

3 Q. These Muslims who you mentioned at the barricade, were they armed?

4 A. Yes, they were armed, yes, armed, armed.

5 Q. What did you do then?

6 A. I went back to town. And then half an hour later I came back, and

7 they said, wait a minute, let's ask the man in charge. And this soldier

8 went to this cafe, Cafe Bor. He asked him, and this man who was in

9 charge, I guess, said to him, "Let him go." So then I went to the bakery.

10 Q. Did you recognise any of the local people who were Muslims at that

11 barricade?

12 A. It was our people, all of them. They were the Subasics. One of

13 then was in the police, one of the Subasics, and there were others. I

14 can't remember their names right now.

15 When I came to the bakery, I found my drivers there and quite a

16 bit of baked bread because I had two shifts working. The drivers started

17 delivering bread throughout town.

18 Q. How long did you work on that day, until what time?

19 A. The driver started delivering the bread in town, and they returned

20 soon. Now then, around nine, there were bullets flying around the

21 bakery. I closed the bakery, and I left, together with the drivers,

22 around nine or ten. Krakonja, Enes I think, he drove me to Livade, and he

23 gave me a vehicle so that I could proceed, but then I came across yet

24 another road block in Aladza and they wouldn't let me pass. I returned

25 the vehicle --

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Page 5494

1 Q. Just a minute, sir. Who didn't let you pass?

2 A. The Muslims.

3 Q. I told you, please wait a bit with your answers.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps if the witness

5 could see the transcript on the monitor in front of him, maybe he will

6 find it easier to realise when the interpretation is over because I think

7 we're going to have lots of problems with the interpretation this way.

8 JUDGE HUNT: I'll add to what you said.

9 Sir, you'll be asked a series of questions. May I suggest you

10 answer just that question. Don't go on to tell us what happened next

11 until you are asked to. One of the purposes of taking your evidence that

12 way is to make sure you stick to what is important to this case, and it's

13 also to break up your evidence so that the interpreters have a fair chance

14 of keeping up with you. You do speak very quickly, and we can understand

15 that you want to tell us this story, but just stick to the questions which

16 are asked and answer those only. I can assure you that Mr. Vasic here

17 will be taking you to every relevant part that will assist us in the case.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. So we came to the point when the local Muslims stopped you at

20 Aladza. Were they armed, the local Muslims who were at Aladza?

21 A. Yes, they were armed.

22 Q. Did you recognise anyone among them, somebody you knew from

23 before?

24 A. Ibro Hrovic was the leader of that group of theirs.

25 Q. Did they let you pass there at Aladza, further on?

Page 5495

1 A. No, they didn't let me pass. They returned me to town yet again.

2 Q. Nevertheless, did you manage to get to your home in Livade on that

3 day?

4 A. I went to a basement and then I thought about this for a while,

5 and then I got it all figured out, that I should go through a forest, and

6 that's how I reached my home.

7 Q. Thank you, sir. The next day, on the 9th of April, 1992, did you

8 go to work again?

9 A. That very same day when I returned home, they called me from the

10 hospital so that I could have bread delivered to the hospital. An

11 ambulance came. They took me to the bakery, I gave them bread, and they

12 returned me home yet again.

13 The next day, a police car came and that car took me to the bakery

14 so that I could give bread again for the hospital. And we delivered a bit

15 more through town, a bit more, because it could be bought in some shops.

16 And then I didn't go to the bakery again.

17 Q. From that day onwards, did the bakery stop working too?

18 A. Yes. The bakery stopped working on that day.

19 Q. When did the bakery start working again? Can you tell us that?

20 A. On the 20th of April, somebody called me from the Crisis Staff and

21 told me to go and see what was going on at the bakery. I called more of

22 my people who worked in the bakery, Serbs, Nedjo Ivanovic, Pljevaljcic

23 Slobodan. And Ilija Matovic was with us, but he's not a baker. When I

24 came to the bakery, I had the keys to the bakery.

25 Q. Just a minute, please. Tell me, all three -- all four of you,

Page 5496

1 rather, came to the bakery, right?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. What did you notice then on the bakery? Did you notice traces of

4 something?

5 A. When we got to the bakery, I had the key to the bakery, and I

6 tried to open it. No way. The Muslims had been at the bakery. They put

7 their own lock on the door of the bakery. We cut those locks, entered the

8 bakery, found all the glass broken. All the glass in the bakery was

9 broken.

10 When I came to my office, I found some police shirts unpacked. I

11 found some police capes as well, coats, then also quite a few military

12 blankets and also holsters for pistols.

13 Q. Tell me, please, did you find out, and when, who was in the bakery

14 during the armed conflict in Foca?

15 A. In 1999, a worker of mine came from Sarajevo, Tisiavla [phoen],

16 and we had a drink, a brandy, whatever, and he said, "I was here. I was

17 ordered to set the bakery on fire, but I felt sorry. I didn't want to do

18 that, so I put my own locks on the doors and locked it up."

19 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that on the 20th of April, 1992, the

20 bakery started working again; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Tell me, please, as for the production of bread when the bakery

23 started working again, did you have any problems or was everything as

24 usual?

25 A. We had problems and quite a few problems at that. We didn't have

Page 5497

1 enough flour. As soon as I got there, realised that there wasn't enough

2 flour, because before the war operations, we were within the Ustikolina

3 mill. I asked Asan --

4 Q. Please could you slow down. I'm afraid that the interpreters will

5 not be able to interpret everything you're saying and it won't enter the

6 transcript then.

7 A. And he said to me, "Slobo, you are nearby. We are going to get

8 flour for you." However, war operations began, and we did not have enough

9 flour. We did not have enough yeast. We had some yeast which had stayed

10 behind from the days when which we had a normal production.

11 Q. Can you please tell me where you got yeast before the war

12 operations started?

13 A. Tuzla.

14 Q. Is that territory that was held by the Muslims during the war

15 operations?

16 A. Yes. And this yeast came and it was practically falling apart.

17 However, since I had to work -- I didn't have any other yeast, so I used

18 it.

19 Q. Was there enough yeast?

20 A. No, there wasn't enough, because we would receive the yeast every

21 five days, we would be sent some yeast. So perhaps we would have -- we

22 had enough for two more days of production. But faced with the situation

23 that we had, I tried to make do with what I had and made it last longer.

24 Q. In the course of 1992 and the beginning of 1993, did you try to

25 obtain the yeast from somewhere else, and what happened? Were you

Page 5498

1 successful?

2 A. Well, yes. I reacted straight away, and we tried to get yeast

3 from Yugoslavia. We did get a small quantity. Then we got some from

4 Montenegro, Niksic, and we made do. We did what we could. It was

5 difficult, but we managed somehow.

6 Q. The fact that you got yeast from Yugoslavia and Montenegro, was

7 that sufficient to cater to the needs of the town of Foca?

8 A. Well, no, it wasn't enough. No, it wasn't. So everybody chipped

9 in, but it still wasn't enough.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. Did you get anything from the reserves, reserve

11 stocks?

12 A. No, we did not get anything from the reserve stocks.

13 Q. Thank you. You said that you didn't have enough flour either.

14 When did the situation improve? When did it become stable and when were

15 you able to have enough flour to produce enough bread?

16 A. Well, when Ustikolina was liberated, I don't know quite when that

17 was, but after that, we started receiving flour from Ustikolina.

18 Q. Was that enough to produce bread for Foca?

19 A. No, it wasn't enough. It wasn't enough because the director

20 didn't come in. The workers didn't come in. We did what we could just to

21 feed the people.

22 Q. I asked you what year the situation became more stable. Can you

23 give us the year? What year did you receive enough flour from other

24 sources for you to be able to bake enough bread?

25 A. At the end of 1993 and the beginning of 1994, I think.

Page 5499

1 Q. Who did you get it from, get the flour from then?

2 A. Well, we began to receive some quantities from the Red Cross.

3 Snezana Kovac helped us and she supplied us from the Red Cross, and from

4 Ustikolina, and we mixed the two and we were able to get a better bread,

5 because to begin with the flour wasn't of very good quality. But later

6 on, we mixed two types of flour and were able to bake some better bread.

7 Q. Tell us, please, in addition to the problems you have just spoken

8 about with respect to flour and yeast, did you have any problems with

9 electricity?

10 A. Yes. There were frequent power cuts and -- but we had to keep

11 producing bread, baking bread, because we were the only bakery in the

12 region. So in the KP Dom that was generator, and I proposed to the

13 military authorities that we go and ask Milorad Krnojelac to give us

14 permission to go into the KP Dom and to bake some bread. And I went with

15 Mitar Sisic. We talked to Milorad, and Milorad gave us permission to do

16 that.

17 Q. In that bakery, did you bake bread all the time or only when you

18 had problems, when there was a power cut?

19 A. No, only when there was a power cut. And then when Milorad

20 Krnojelac gave us permission to work in his bakery, I had to decide with

21 the shift commander, shift leader, how I can take my people in there. And

22 he said, "Well, just make a list. When you need to come in, make a list.

23 Bring me a list of the people you want to come in," and that's how these

24 people were granted permission to go in.

25 Q. And the bakery in the KP Dom, how was that lit when there was no

Page 5500

1 electricity?

2 A. Well, the generator was a big one, so it could provide enough

3 light and give us the energy we needed to bake our bread.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. You said you were the only bakery. Do you mean

5 to say that yours was the only bakery in Foca municipality?

6 A. Well, our bakery was the only one that was working, yes.

7 Q. After the bakery began functioning again, did you give any orders

8 with respect to priority, priority delivers, who you were to deliver to

9 first?

10 A. Well, yes. As I say, we had problems with flour and yeast, and

11 there were priorities. The army was a priority, for example, then the

12 hospital, too, and then the citizens, and then the KP Dom and some smaller

13 enterprises that were still working.

14 Q. As there was the shortage that you described to us, were you able

15 to bake enough loaves of bread to supply the priority facilities?

16 A. No. We would reduce the quantities for everybody. We would

17 deliver less bread to the army as well, battalion by battalion. So

18 everybody had to make do with less, a smaller quantity of bread because we

19 didn't have enough workers, either, so that was another impediment.

20 Q. And was the situation like that until the end of 1993 and the

21 beginning of 1994?

22 A. Yes, that's right. That was what it was like throughout.

23 Q. Tell us, please, sir, when you baked the bread in the KP Dom

24 bakery, with respect to the bakery's capacity, did you have enough to

25 distribute and deliver to the citizens?

Page 5501

1 A. No, no. We didn't give a single loaf of bread to the inhabitants

2 because we had our priorities, the ones that I mentioned, hospitals and so

3 on.

4 Q. Did you supply the KP Dom kitchen with bread?

5 A. Well, the cooks would come from the KP Dom and took off some

6 bread. I don't know where the bread was taken to, but probably to the

7 kitchens.

8 Q. Did they receive the quantity of bread that they asked you to

9 supply them with?

10 A. No, they didn't. They couldn't have. We weren't able to supply

11 them with those quantities.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell us, please, faced with this electricity

13 shortage and power cuts, did you have to reorganise your capacities and

14 did you have to use other fuel, and what did you do, other energy sources?

15 A. Yes. At the end of 1993 we switched to solid fuels, and a small

16 surface -- furnace was adapted to the solid fuels. But the main machinery

17 still used fuel and so on, it was only this small furnace that was

18 adapted.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, could you tell us, please, how the town was

20 supplied with foodstuffs and liquid fuel in that year, 1992?

21 A. Well, as for liquid fuel, there wasn't any at all, but we made do

22 because we were a bakery and had to supply the population and the army and

23 the KP Dom and the hospital, so we made do, and somehow obtained some

24 liquid fuel, although there were shortages. And there weren't any

25 foodstuffs, either. There was a shortage of everything in town, actually.

Page 5502

1 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell us, please, how long you have known

2 Milorad Krnojelac.

3 A. Well, we're from the same town. We would bump into each other all

4 the time. I have known Milorad since the 1960s. We're always around

5 town. I know Milorad as a fine, decent, honest person.

6 Q. Do you know whether Milorad Krnojelac belonged to any nationalist

7 party?

8 A. No, I don't.

9 Q. Was he involved in politics in 1991, 1992 at all?

10 A. Well, I knew him as a professor, as a teacher from town. I didn't

11 know what else he did. He was the local teacher.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you happen to know what authority Milorad

13 Krnojelac had from mid-1992 to mid-1993 in the KP Dom of Foca, and if so,

14 how do you come to know that?

15 A. Well, we're sort of neighbours. My bakery is close to the KP Dom,

16 so I knew that he was designated to be the director of the economic unit

17 called Drina, and it was rumoured around town. People would say that he

18 had become the director. And I asked him directly once. I asked him

19 myself, and he said ...

20 Q. You said that you had heard that he was the director of the Drina

21 Economic Unit. Did you hear about him being the warden of the KP Dom?

22 A. Well, warden, director, I mix the terms up.

23 Q. You said that you had heard that he was the director. Do you mean

24 that he was in charge of the economic activities within the KP Dom? Is

25 that what you wanted to say?

Page 5503

1 A. I don't know what you mean.

2 Q. You told us that you had heard that he was director of the

3 economic unit, and then you said that he was the director, manager. Do

4 you mean by that that he was -- dealt with the economic activities of the

5 Drina unit?

6 A. Well, they had their own -- up there, they had their fields, their

7 land, and their farm, and so probably he was in charge of that, yes.

8 Q. Tell us whether this Drina Economic Unit was an important economic

9 undertaking in Foca; do you happen to know?

10 A. Yes, it was. It was an important firm before the war and during

11 the war.

12 Q. Thank you, sir.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no more

14 questions for this witness.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Ms. Kuo.

16 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

18 Q. Good afternoon, sir. There are -- the city bakery that you refer

19 to is actually located outside the KP Dom, right, about 80 or maybe 200

20 metres away?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that bakery is located on the road from KP Dom into town,

23 right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you're in that bakery, the city bakery, you can actually see

Page 5504

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Page 5505

1 out onto the main road so that a vehicle going toward the KP Dom could

2 see, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The bakery that you refer to inside the KP Dom, was that

5 functioning as a bakery before the war or was it simply a kitchen that

6 could be used as a bakery?

7 A. The KP Dom bakery did work before the war for the compound. It

8 supplied their restaurants and for the prisoners who were there, so their

9 bakery was working before the war. It did work as a bakery.

10 Q. But that bakery wasn't providing bread to anybody outside the KP

11 Dom, right?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And that bakery inside the KP Dom was not part of the Drina

14 Economic Unit of the KP Dom, right? It was just part of the daily

15 functioning of the KP Dom.

16 A. Well, I don't know that. I know them, they were the KP Dom, but

17 who it belonged to, I don't know.

18 Q. The bakery within the KP Dom was never used to make money, in

19 other words?

20 A. No, no, no.

21 Q. What date did you begin to use the KP Dom bakery?

22 A. Whenever there was a power cut, we would go over to them. I had

23 the dates written down, but I don't know now. I can't say. But every

24 month, it would be two or three days a month. There would be a power cut,

25 and for two or three days each month, we'd have to move over to them.

Page 5506

1 Q. And the other days you were still able to use the city bakery,

2 right?

3 A. Yes. Our bakery is a more modern one. It is better equipped,

4 more modern equipment, and as soon as the electricity returned, we'd pack

5 up our things and go back to our own bakery.

6 Q. Do you remember when the first time was that you went to use the

7 KP Dom bakery, or perhaps when it was that you asked permission to use the

8 bakery, approximately?

9 A. Well, I can't quite remember, but I think it was in May 1992,

10 thereabouts, but I can't tell you exactly. I can't remember.

11 Q. And why did you ask the military authorities? Why did you make

12 the proposal to the military authorities that you use the KP Dom?

13 A. Because the army was there, the priority. The army was our

14 priority, and I had to supply the army with bread, so that's why I asked

15 the army.

16 Q. When you were using the bakery inside the KP Dom, did you also

17 work at night or during the daytime?

18 A. Well, my workers would come during the night at about 3.00 a.m.

19 because the bread had to be baked and delivered in the morning.

20 Q. Where was the bakery located inside the KP Dom? Was it the same

21 place where the kitchen in the KP Dom was?

22 A. Yes, it was. It's called by the second gate. They referred to it

23 as by the second gate, and the kitchen and bakery were in the same place.

24 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I would like to have

25 this witness shown Exhibit P6, and I'd like to ask the witness if he can

Page 5507

1 show us where the second gate is and where the bakery was located inside

2 the KP Dom.

3 Q. It might help, Mr. Solaja, if you find the bridge. The bridge is

4 very clearly marked on the bottom right of the picture and then you can

5 maybe find the gate.

6 A. Is this it? That's where the gate was, there.

7 MS. KUO: The witness is indicating to the lower right-hand corner

8 of the diagram where other witnesses have indicated a vehicle gate.

9 Q. And could you show us where the bakery was located within the

10 KP Dom?

11 A. I can't find my way here, but I think it's somewhere here, the

12 same gate, and that's where the bakery was. I would say it was here.

13 MS. KUO: The witness was indicating the building that's

14 immediately to the left as you enter the gate, and he was a little bit

15 uncertain in the first two segments of that building where it was.

16 Q. Thank you. When your workers would go into the KP Dom at 3.00 in

17 the morning, how did they gain access?

18 A. Well, I said I would give a list of the workers who would be

19 working and they reported to the duty officer, and they went to the main

20 entrance then. They would go to the main entrance and then get to the

21 bakery from the main entrance.

22 Q. Did you deal with the shift officer to enable your workers to have

23 access?

24 A. No. I would give my worker -- one of the workers of the list and

25 he would give it to the duty officer and would be allowed to enter.

Page 5508

1 Q. How did you come about this arrangement? Who did you arrange it

2 with?

3 A. Well, Mico. Mico gave us permission to work in the bakery. And

4 then it was with the police commander. I don't know what his name was.

5 He said -- he told us, "Every time you want to go -- your people want to

6 go in, you have to make a list, and we'll let as many passes are on the

7 list. The people on the list we will be given permission to enter."

8 Q. When you say "Mico," you mean Milorad Krnojelac, right? That was

9 his nickname?

10 A. Yes, yes. Yes, that's his nickname.

11 Q. When you spoke with him, you were asking permission to use the

12 bakery inside the KP Dom, right?

13 A. Yes. Only when there was a power cut. Only when there was no

14 electricity. Then we asked him permission to use his bakery.

15 Q. In other words, you asked him permission to use the bakery every

16 time there was a power cut. You didn't continue to ask him separately

17 each time, right? You asked him once, "Whenever there's power cut, can we

18 use your bakery?" Is that the arrangement or did you approach him every

19 time?

20 A. Only once he gave us permission and then we had to contact the

21 other person, the shift leader or the police or whatever.

22 Q. And it was Mico who told you to contact the shift commander,

23 right, to work out the details?

24 A. Well, I knew. I was close by, and I knew that that was how you

25 would go about it, that you would have to contact the policeman and their

Page 5509

1 leader, their chief. I knew that because I was close by and I knew what

2 you had to do. I knew I would have to contact the police person, police

3 chief, and then do it that way. So that's what I did on my own

4 initiative.

5 Q. When you asked Mico to use the bakery, did he grant the

6 permission?

7 A. Yes. Yes, he granted permission. Yes, he did, yes.

8 Q. He didn't say, "I don't have competency over that part of the

9 KP Dom," right?

10 A. No.

11 Q. He didn't say, "You need to go speak to the military to have

12 access to the KP Dom at night," right? He didn't say that?

13 A. Well, they were the military authorities. He was with me. Mitar

14 Sisic, he was with me.

15 Q. Who was that?

16 A. Mitar Sisic.

17 Q. He was a military person, right?

18 A. Quartermaster, yes.

19 Q. And he went with you to ask permission of Mico, right?

20 A. Right. Mitar came to me, to my bakery, and then we went to see

21 Mico.

22 Q. And the military person did not go with you to see Mico to order

23 Mico to do anything, right? It wasn't an order. You were there to ask

24 permission?

25 A. Well, we went there to discuss the matter and reach an agreement

Page 5510

1 on it.

2 Q. But just to clarify, you did not go there -- neither you nor the

3 other person could give an order to Mico that you must be granted access

4 to the bakery, right? You had to ask his permission.

5 A. Well, I thought that if we reached an agreement, it wasn't up to

6 us to issue orders.

7 Q. When your workers were using the bakery at the KP Dom at night,

8 was the light on?

9 A. Well, you have to have some light. You have to have the light

10 on. It was like this: The generator was working because there was no

11 electricity in town. And the generator was only working for the bakery.

12 The light was switched on and it produced enough electric energy for us to

13 mix the dough, knead the dough, and so on. We had -- we just needed

14 electricity to knead the dough and to have light. For everything else, we

15 used wood and coal.

16 MS. KUO: Your Honours, we're nearing 4.00, but I have about 10

17 minutes' worth of questions. I don't know if we wish to run over so we

18 don't need to bring the witness back.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Such estimates rarely ever turn out to be accurate

20 and there is a need for Mr. Vasic to re-examine. How confident are you

21 with your estimate?

22 MS. KUO: How about this: I'll promise to stop after 10 minutes.

23 JUDGE HUNT: We'll have to ask the interpreters and court

24 reporters whether they are prepared to spend another 10 minutes. It's

25 certainly a very much greater pleasure listening to the evidence going at

Page 5511

1 this rate now than it was.

2 Yes, we're getting the okay from the interpreters. Court

3 reporters? All right? Yes. Very well, then.

4 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Solaja, you mentioned that flour was in short supply. Isn't

6 it true that the army had reserves, or at least, the military had reserves

7 at the Perucica warehouse in Foca?

8 A. I don't know about that, but I don't think they had any such

9 thing. They would have given it to us. I don't know exactly, but ...

10 Q. You were supplying bread to the military, right?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And you're saying the military didn't provide you to flour to bake

13 that bread?

14 A. The military, well, it was only towards the end of 1993 that they

15 started giving us flour for bread. I don't know how come they had more of

16 that flour. But then they said that they would give it to us and then --

17 I mean, over the years they were returning this debt in flour to us. But

18 they didn't give us flour until the end of 1993. That's when they started

19 giving us flour.

20 Q. You mentioned a mill in Ustikolina. Isn't it true that bags of

21 flour were brought from Ustikolina even in May 1992, brought to the

22 warehouse in Livade?

23 A. No. No. Flour from Ustikolina came directly to us because that's

24 our company, except that it was not of good quality. Ultimately, we sent

25 this flour to the institute and then the institute established that it was

Page 5512

1 not fit for human consumption. However, during the war we didn't have

2 time or we didn't have the possibility of doing that, I mean sending this

3 to the institute. But then once we sent it to the institute, they told us

4 that that flour was not for human consumption. As for the warehouse, no

5 way. I mean we could get flour from our own company, couldn't we.

6 Q. The analysis by the institute that the flour was of poor quality

7 was done after the war, right, after 1994?

8 A. Somewhere around there. Just after the war. I can't say exactly,

9 but it was done.

10 Q. So during the war, that is in 1992, 1993, you did continue to use

11 that flour because you didn't know what quality it was and you were able

12 to use the flour to bake bread, right?

13 A. Well, as bakery manager, I realised that it was of poor quality,

14 but I didn't have any other possibilities.

15 Q. Yes. Sir, nobody is blaming you about the wartime conditions and

16 it's perfectly understandable.

17 You mentioned earlier -- actually, you mentioned in your statement

18 that you were only able to provide about half of the bread that was needed

19 at the KP Dom. Do you remember saying that?

20 A. Well, I stand by what I said because perhaps their priority came

21 fourth. So, well, I have to give bread to those who had priority, and

22 then if we ran out of bread, we ran out of bread. That's it.

23 Q. Who requested the bread of you; which authorities within the KP

24 Dom?

25 A. The workers from the KP Dom, the workers from the KP Dom. For

Page 5513

1 example, the man who was head of their kitchen, he asked for bread. The

2 workers, the workers who contacted me to see whether I could give them

3 bread.

4 Q. In other words, these were employees at the KP Dom, right?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. You mentioned that there was a labour shortage at this time, and I

7 assume that before the war your bakery workers were of mixed ethnicity; is

8 that right?

9 A. Yes. Nineteen Muslims and five Serbs.

10 Q. And the 19 Muslims were not able to continue working at the bakery

11 when the war started and thereafter, right?

12 A. One of them, a really nice man, Nasif Jusufovic, he remained in

13 our town, and he offered to work. He asked me, but then I was afraid.

14 There's all kinds of people, and I was afraid that somebody would -- well,

15 I just asked him, I said, "Please don't come. I'll give you your salary.

16 Whatever my workers earn, I will give you as well," because I was afraid

17 that somebody would harm him in some way because there were these people

18 who were coming in, whatever.

19 Q. So with the loss of 19 of your 24 original workers, you had a very

20 severe labour shortage, didn't you?

21 A. Well, very severe, but it was a smaller town, smaller population,

22 and we made every effort to provide bread. And we did not pay much

23 attention to proper working hours. We would work not only eight, but ten,

24 15 hours, just in order to provide bread.

25 Q. So what you're saying is even though there were fewer people to

Page 5514

1 make bread, there were also fewer people to eat the bread, right?

2 A. Well, right, yes.

3 Q. Isn't it true that you used Muslim detainees as labour in the

4 bakery, both in the city bakery and within the KP Dom bakery, to unload --

5 A. No, no.

6 Q. Isn't it true that Muslim detainees unloaded flour at the bakery?

7 A. Maybe during the first days -- no, no, not at all. If I needed

8 labour for unloading flour, I asked Mitar Sisic, the quartermaster, and he

9 would send me a work platoon, and they would unload it for me. No.

10 Q. Are you saying the work platoon was military, in military uniform,

11 or did he simply make arrangements to bring people to work?

12 A. Well, these were elderly people, probably those who couldn't go to

13 the front lines, so they came to do this.

14 Q. But answer my question, please: Were they in military uniform or

15 not?

16 A. Well, look. Some were and others weren't. See, like, if my son

17 was in the army, it is only natural that he would have a kind of thing to

18 wear --

19 Q. Okay. You said that the people were elderly. How heavy were the

20 bags of flour?

21 A. Well, 50 kilograms, but it's not difficult to unload it because

22 off the truck you put it directly onto a cart with wheels and then further

23 on, so it's not really hard.

24 Q. Didn't Muslim detainees come to fix the machines at the bakery

25 when they were broken?

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Page 5516

1 A. No, we had our own maintenance worker. I had to have an

2 electrician, and this electrician could do everything because all my

3 machinery was electric machinery.

4 Q. Mr. Solaja, on 23rd June, 1993, a group of about 12 Muslim

5 detainees from the KP Dom were brought to the city bakery and hidden in

6 the basement all day. Were you there that day?

7 A. Yes, yes, I was, but these were my acquaintances. Ibro Karovic,

8 for example, then --

9 Q. Sir, you don't need to give us their names. They were not there

10 to work, right?

11 A. Oh, they worked. I had to have flour weighed. They worked. I

12 didn't know why they came, but yes, they did work for me, yes.

13 Q. Okay. I might have misunderstood you, then, earlier when you said

14 that no Muslim detainees worked at the city bakery. In fact, there were,

15 right?

16 A. Well, that group came because I really needed to take some

17 flour -- well, it wasn't good, so I had to transport it elsewhere, you

18 see.

19 Q. So you asked for that group to be brought to transport flour, is

20 that what you're saying?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 MS. KUO: I see I've gone over my time for two minutes, so I'll

23 stop.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I feel that we've been here almost as many hours as

25 it takes to bake bread.

Page 5517

1 Yes, Mr. Vasic.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The Defence

3 has no questions for the cross-examination.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Well, thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You're

5 now free to leave.

6 The Trial Chamber is very grateful to the interpreters and the

7 court reporters and everybody having worked on so that this witness could

8 return to his home.

9 We'll adjourn now till Monday, 9.30.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.13 p.m., to

11 be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of May, 2001,

12 at 9.30 a.m.

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