Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5518

1 Monday, 7 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

7 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, your next witness. Oh, Mr. Vasic, I'm

9 sorry. I didn't realise Mr. Bakrac was not here.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I shall

11 appear for the Defence today because Mr. Bakrac had some business related

12 to the case that he simply could not put off.

13 Our next witness is Witness A, a protected witness, so I would

14 kindly ask the usher to bring him into the courtroom, please.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please make the solemn declaration in the

17 document which has been handed you by the court usher.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 WITNESS: WITNESS A

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please. Yes, Mr. Vasic.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, madam.

Page 5519

1 A. Good morning, sir.

2 Q. Since you are a protected witness, I would kindly ask the usher to

3 give the witness document ID D148, please.

4 A. Thank you.

5 Q. Madam, on this sheet of paper, is your name stated in the first

6 line, as well as your maiden name?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Since you are a protected witness, we shall be addressing you as

9 Witness A.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In line number 2, does it say what the date, month, and place, and

12 year and place of your birth is?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Since you are a protected witness, I shall kindly ask you the

15 following: When you mention the places mentioned in lines 3 and 4, could

16 you please call the town in line A Town A and the town in line 4 Town B.

17 Is that all right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Also, please do not mention your father's name, just speak of him

20 as your father when you speak about him.

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE HUNT: And that is the name of the father?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Hunt, please.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. In line number 5, is that your father's name?

Page 5520

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In the following line, is that the name of your friend?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you speak of him, could you just mention him as your friend

5 without mentioning his name?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE HUNT: That document will be Exhibit D148, and it is under

8 seal.

9 Perhaps somebody can organise for my microphone to work, please.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. May I

11 proceed, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Madam, in Town A, did you complete elementary and high school in

15 Town A?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Are you married?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When did you get married, which year?

20 A. 1981.

21 Q. Can you tell us, when did you move from Town A to Town B?

22 A. In 1982, something like that. 1981, 1982.

23 Q. Did you move to Town B with your family?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you employed in Town B?

Page 5521

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Until when were you employed in Town B?

3 A. Until the 4th of April, 1992, until the beginning of the war.

4 Q. After the war broke out, did you obtain any information about your

5 family, about your father, your mother and sister?

6 A. In October 1992, I found out that my father was taken away and

7 most probably killed. My mother and sister -- actually, I didn't know

8 about them then, but on the 4th or 5th of April, I talked to them on the

9 telephone. They had moved to the neighbouring municipality. That's it.

10 During the following two years, I did not know anything about my mother or

11 sister.

12 Q. Did your mother and sister -- did you hear from your mother and

13 sister after those two years and did you realise that they were well and

14 alive?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did your mother and sister leave and go to the neighbouring

17 municipality before the conflict broke out?

18 A. Perhaps a day before that.

19 Q. Do you know why they left a day before the conflict broke out?

20 A. Well, I do know. Many people left the municipality where my

21 parents lived regardless of their ethnicity, and usually, they moved their

22 women and children out.

23 Q. Was that because of the interethnic tensions that prevailed then?

24 A. Yes, probably.

25 Q. Can you tell me when you returned from B to A?

Page 5522

1 A. The 23rd of January, 1993.

2 Q. Could you go from B to A directly or did you have to go through

3 neighbouring territories?

4 A. Yes, I had to go all round through Serbia and Montenegro, a much

5 longer way.

6 Q. Did you take that road because along the direct route between A

7 and B, there was still fighting?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you return to your family home in Town A?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you return with your entire family?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell us about Town A, when you came there in January 1993,

14 what was the situation in terms of food supplies?

15 A. Do you mean in shops?

16 Q. Yes, I mean in shops.

17 A. There was very little of anything, and the local population hardly

18 had any money, and there was hardly anything to be bought in the shops.

19 Perhaps only a few things whose expiry dates were long past.

20 Q. Can you tell us what the situation was like in terms of the

21 quantity of bread in shops in Town A?

22 A. I'm not aware of there having been any bread at the shops.

23 Actually, I didn't have any money, so I didn't even go to buy bread, but I

24 don't think there was any bread in the stores, and I baked my own bread.

25 Q. Did you buy flour -- where did you buy flour?

Page 5523

1 A. No. We got flour as humanitarian aid.

2 Q. Can you tell me whether at that time when you returned to Town A

3 there was enough electricity for the population?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Were there frequent brownouts?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell me whether there were any clothes in shops, and what

8 was your perception? What kind of clothes did the people in Town A wear

9 upon your return?

10 A. Older people usually wore their own clothes, and refugees got

11 clothes from their relatives. And the greatest problem was with our

12 children who were growing and who grew out of their old clothes. There

13 wasn't any money, and there weren't any clothes to be bought, either, so

14 we tried to make do. For example, fathers would bring children camouflage

15 cloth, that is to say, from the military, and then we would sew trousers

16 and vests for the children from that camouflage cloth, and that is

17 basically what they wore to school as well.

18 We tried to make do with whatever we had. If we also found

19 smaller military shirts, then children wore that. Also footwear,

20 children's feet grow fast, and also children tear their shoes quickly, so

21 if we found military boots the right size, we'd also give them to our

22 children to wear.

23 Q. What about people in Town A, did they wear military uniform?

24 A. Yes, both men and women. If nothing else, at least vests.

25 Q. Was the reason for that the lack of clothing that could be bought?

Page 5524

1 A. Yes, yes, by all means.

2 Q. Tell me, please, do you know after your return from Town B to Town

3 A in 1993, were there any other persons in Town A who were non-Serbs?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember any names?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us these names?

8 A. Ivica Peter was there. As for the Croats, then Stefica Posnjak,

9 her daughter Nada. Then there were quite a few Muslims, mostly people who

10 lived in mixed marriages. There was Necko. There was Haslim [phoen]

11 Miletic, Saliha, her daughter-in-law, then Zajko Zecevic. Quite a few

12 people. Perhaps I can't remember all of them now. I can either remember

13 only the name or only the surname.

14 Q. Thank you, madam. Do you know Milorad Krnojelac?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was he your teacher?

17 A. Yes, he was my math teacher. Not only my math teacher, he also

18 taught my sister and lots of my relatives.

19 Q. Can you tell me what the ethnic composition was at the school you

20 attended?

21 A. I think about half-half.

22 Q. You mean half of the pupils were Serbs and half of the pupils were

23 Muslims?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was the ethnic composition of the teachers at that school the

 

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Page 5526

1 same?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was that school a school that had a good name in terms of the good

4 teachers who worked there, and did that go for the entire region? Was it

5 considered to be one of the better schools there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Since you say that this -- that the accused was your math teacher,

8 can you tell us what kind of grades you had in mathematics?

9 A. Two, three, sometimes even one. Can I explain this a bit?

10 Q. Go ahead.

11 A. Very often I would get a failing grade, a number 1, and -- and

12 then, as we in Bosnia say, my teacher would scold me and he'd say how

13 could I allow that to happen, to have a failing grade in math? And that

14 my parents, my mother and my father, took such good care of me, and were

15 creating good living conditions for me. And then he'd say, "Go back to

16 your place, sit down, and then I'm going to examine you again so that you

17 would get a passing grade." He tried to stimulate his students and he

18 tried to make us learn something. So that's how good I was in math. I

19 had a passing grade, number 2 or number 3. Although Mico, as a teacher,

20 he really deserved an excellent grade, a number 5.

21 Q. Thank you, Madam. Tell me, please, do you know whether the

22 accused was your relative's teacher as well and did he help him in some

23 situations related to his misbehaviour in school?

24 A. Yes. He was my -- Mico was my first cousin's home-room teacher.

25 He was a boy who was as boys go at his age. He was a pretty unruly boy.

Page 5527

1 But I know that my aunt would say that she would always go and talk to

2 Mico and that Mico would talk to the boys and also with the teachers who

3 had problems with the boys. So he really helped these young boys. And

4 like the rest of the town, and like the rest of the school, these -- this

5 group of boys was half Serb, half Muslims. There were no divisions among

6 us. And he helped all the same way, both Serbs and Muslims.

7 Q. Was Mico Krnojelac fair in grading his students?

8 A. Yes, he was very strict and very fair.

9 Q. You said that he was ready to help and that he was fair. Did his

10 students like him because of that?

11 A. Yes, certainly, although we became increasingly aware of that as

12 we were growing up. I am far more aware of that nowadays, when I have

13 children of my own.

14 Q. Can you tell me whether your friend asked you in 1996 to convey a

15 message of his to Milorad Krnojelac?

16 A. Yes. My friend and Mico Krnojelac's friend met me in (redacted) and

17 asked me to convey his greetings to Mico. Actually he said to me, "Say

18 hello to Mico for me. How's he doing?" And I can say another thing. He

19 said, "I'm sorry, I have lots of my -- lots of my documents and

20 photographs in Town A, that are left there. And what I feel sorry about

21 the most are -- is the fact that I haven't got my photographs, the ones

22 that I had pictures -- where I had pictures taken with my friends,

23 including Mico."

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness misspoke.

25 Actually she mentioned the actual name of Town B, so her statement should

Page 5528

1 be redacted in that sense.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sure it's already been caught.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Can you tell me what your feelings were when you heard that

5 Milorad Krnojelac was arrested?

6 A. Since I knew teacher Mico, now how did I feel? I cried. My

7 younger son came, both of my sons went to the school where Mico was

8 principal in that period, and they said to me, "Mom, do you know that your

9 teacher has been arrested?" And now why did they say, "Mom, your

10 teacher"? Probably because I told them a lot about my teachers, about

11 what they taught me. I was really sorry, very sorry. Actually, until the

12 present day, I cannot really talk about this. That's the way it is.

13 Q. After Milorad Krnojelac was arrested, did you talk to some persons

14 who were ethnic Muslims in Town B? Did you talk about him as a person

15 about this arrest?

16 A. Yes, many people were surprised. Actually, a lot of people say

17 that they cannot believe it, that this was probably a mistake, that there

18 was no reason for Mico to be arrested. People talked about his character

19 and they said only good things about him. Everybody regrets this and

20 everybody hopes that this mistake will be rectified, because, indeed, Mico

21 contacted many people in (redacted)-- oh, I'm so sorry.

22 Q. Never mind. It will be redacted, I hope.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, it will, don't worry.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Please proceed. Do you want to say something else?

Page 5529

1 A. No, no. Well, people were mostly taken by surprise. They

2 couldn't believe this. Actually, knowing Mico, people could not accept

3 the fact that this happened, this arrest.

4 Q. My last question, Your Honour: Bearing in mind your family

5 tragedy, that had to do with your father that you mentioned to us here,

6 why did you decide to come here and testify before this Honourable Court?

7 A. Let me put it to you this way: Why did I decide? Because I

8 believe that Mico is an honourable and honest man.

9 It seems to me -- actually, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm just so upset.

10 This is my first time to appear in court.

11 I can simply say that because I believe that Mico is not guilty

12 because I know the man as a teacher, as my father's friend, as the friend

13 of many of my neighbours, of other teachers. Talking to people, and this

14 is my personal opinion, too, it's very, very positive, that is. Believe

15 me, I would not be here today if I did not believe in Mico.

16 Q. Thank you, madam.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no

18 further questions.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

22 Q. Good morning, Witness.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. Witness, you are a Muslim, right?

25 A. It is.

Page 5530

1 Q. And your husband is a Serb, right?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Before the war, did your parents live -- still live in this

4 particular place where you were born, this place?

5 A. Yes, they did.

6 Q. I mean the place that is listed in the second line of the sheet of

7 paper, right?

8 A. Place A, my parents lived in place A.

9 Q. Yes, that's understood. But what about the place that is in line

10 2, in line 2 of the sheet of paper, did your parents still live in this

11 place which is part of Town A?

12 A. No. No, my parents lived in the town that is the third line.

13 Q. In the town centre?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Your parents, did they live in a flat or did they have a house in

16 this Town A?

17 A. They had a family house.

18 Q. When the war started, how old was your father, approximately? You

19 do not have to say his date of birth, but his age.

20 A. Sixty-two, sixty-three.

21 Q. He was not a soldier, was he?

22 A. No, he wasn't.

23 Q. You said that he was taken away. When was he taken away?

24 A. In June 1992.

25 Q. Who took him away, do you know that?

Page 5531

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Page 5532

1 A. No, I don't, no.

2 Q. Was he actually arrested and taken to KP Dom?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Where was he taken?

5 A. I still have relatives in (redacted), and they said it was guys,

6 some guys who took him to the bank of the Drina.

7 Q. Some guys. Serb soldiers or what guys?

8 A. As likely as not, yes, it was Serb soldiers.

9 Q. How was he killed, do you know that?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Where is he buried?

12 A. He was not buried.

13 Q. So he disappeared, actually? He was killed and disappeared,

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You said that your mother and sister had left (redacted) before

17 the outbreak of the war, and you said that they went to a neighbouring

18 municipality. Downstream?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. They did not return after the war to Town A, right?

21 A. No, they did not.

22 Q. Why not?

23 A. Other people did not come back, either.

24 Q. They did not come back, right?

25 A. They did not come back.

Page 5533

1 Q. When you returned to place A in 1993, parts of this town was

2 destroyed, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And they were, in particular, the Muslim neighbourhoods that were

5 destroyed, right?

6 A. Well, the localities were not divided into Serb and Muslim, but

7 there were quite a number of Muslim houses burnt down, but there were Serb

8 houses burnt down, too.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would actually now have to

10 refer to some neighbourhoods because the witness said the neighbourhoods

11 were not divided into Serb and Muslims. Can we move briefly into private

12 session, or should I write them down?

13 JUDGE HUNT:I think it would be quicker to go into private session.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I think so.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Just wait while they do that.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5534

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7 (redacted)

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22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE HUNT: We are now in open session.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Page 5535

1 Q. Witness, you said that when you returned to (redacted), Muslim people

2 who lived in mixed marriages lived -- were still living there, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But the majority of the Muslim people, they didn't live there any

5 more, right? They had fled?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I just see --

8 JUDGE HUNT: We've seen that.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm sorry.

10 Q. You said that when you returned, a lot of people had to wear parts

11 of military clothing because there were no clothes, they didn't have

12 clothes, right? That's what you said.

13 A. Yes, there were no clothes.

14 Q. You did not wear military clothing, did you? You personally?

15 A. I did not, because I had managed to take my things out with me

16 from Town B. I managed to take it away so I had it with me.

17 Q. Yes, and the Serbs living in (redacted) throughout, they had their own

18 clothing, didn't they? Even you managed to bring your clothing and those

19 who stayed in (redacted), they must have had their clothing, right?

20 A. Yes. They did, but a large number of refugees had come to the

21 town.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you really must be more careful.

23 You keep on using Town A's name. I realise it's difficult but you just

24 have to concentrate.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I'm sorry.

Page 5536

1 A. There were a number of Serbs whose houses had burned down in the

2 conflicts in the early days, and those Serbs were without houses.

3 Q. However, there were a lot of clothing there from all these houses

4 that were not destroyed, even from the flats where the Muslims had left,

5 right? There were a lot of clothing?

6 A. Yes, Serb women had appropriated a great deal, but a lot of it was

7 just discarded. A lot of it perished.

8 Q. Witness, you mentioned your friend who was not living in Town A

9 any more. Why did he not live in Town A any more?

10 A. Why he was not living there any more there? Well, because he was

11 of Muslim ethnicity and he left like many other Muslims. He left Town A,

12 just as many Serbs left Town B.

13 Q. Witness, you said that your father was killed by Serb soldiers.

14 Why was he killed?

15 A. Why was he killed? I suppose because he was a Muslim.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, no further questions.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination, Mr. Vasic?

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, three

19 questions only.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

21 Q. Madam, when my learned friend asked you, you mentioned that in

22 fact Muslim houses were destroyed in (redacted). Are you also aware --

23 do you have any knowledge of Serb houses being destroyed there?

24 A. Yes, because (redacted) was the part of the area which suffered

25 most, regardless of the ethnic origin.

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Page 5538

1 Q. My learned friend asked you about -- and you testified about a

2 place called --

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, now I

4 slipped and omitted to ask for a private -- for a private session before I

5 mentioned the name of a neighbourhood, and my second question has to do

6 with another neighbourhood, so that -- could we go so -- could this be

7 redacted and if we could go back into private session?

8 JUDGE HUNT: That will be done, I think.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

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Page 5539

1 (redacted)

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8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE HUNT: We are now in open session and the witness has left.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE HUNT: Would you make the solemn declaration in the document

12 which the court usher is handing to you, sir.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 WITNESS: SLOBODAN JOVANCEVIC

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

18 Yes, Mr. Vasic.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. First I should like to ask you before I move on to the

24 examination-in-chief to make a short break after my questions because we

25 speak the same language, so as to give the interpreters enough time to

Page 5540

1 interpret questions and answers so that the Court and my learned friends

2 could hear the interpretation of my question, and perhaps it will be best

3 if you followed the transcript on the screen.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please help the

5 witness to move the -- to change the screen to the transcript so that when

6 the cursor stops, then you can start answering my question.

7 JUDGE HUNT: We do need to get his name, of course.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Q. Sir, will you tell us your name?

10 A. Slobodan Jovancevic.

11 Q. Will you tell us the day, the month, and the year of your birth?

12 A. 15th of August, 1949.

13 Q. And where were you born?

14 A. Prvina Glava near Sid.

15 Q. Are you married?

16 A. I am.

17 Q. Do you have any children?

18 A. Yes, two sons.

19 Q. And what is your profession?

20 A. I am an electrician.

21 Q. Where do you work?

22 A. I work for the Power Distribution Company Pale the work unit at

23 Srbinje.

24 Q. And when were you employed with this company?

25 A. Since 1967.

Page 5541

1 Q. Where did you live in 1992?

2 A. I lived in Foca, now Srbinje, in a part of the town called Donje

3 Polje, Vojislava Ilica Street number two.

4 Q. And did you live there with your family?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Let us now go back to the period between the 7th of April, 1992 --

7 on that 7th of April, 1992, did you go to work to the power distribution

8 company?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And why didn't you go to work?

11 A. At 6.45 I came out on my balcony. It was raining, and I wanted to

12 get my rain coat. And then from the balcony I saw, that is, noticed, an

13 army unit lined up in front of my company. I went back into the flat,

14 phoned my superior, Fahrudin Suvalija, and asked him what's going on. And

15 Fahrudin told me that it wasn't safe and that I should not come to work

16 and to let know my colleague Bozo Kulic who lived on the 4th floor the

17 same thing, that is, that neither of the two of us should go to work.

18 Q. You mentioned the name of Mr. Fahrudin Suvalija. Was he a citizen

19 of Muslim ethnicity?

20 A. Yes, he was.

21 Q. Was he a member of the SDA?

22 A. Yes, he was, and he was the secretary of that party.

23 Q. Secretary of the SDA for the territory of the municipality of

24 Foca?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5542

1 Q. Tell us, sir, if on the previous day you went to work?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. And did you then see something out of the ordinary near the power

4 distribution company?

5 A. That day in front of my company's building, sandbags were placed,

6 that is, barriers or bunkers were made - I don't know what to call them -

7 in front of that company, in front of Sahinpasic's house and in front of

8 Ramiz Sljivo's house. There were no troops in them and no weapons.

9 So I went to my company to the room where we have coffee, and

10 there was a discussion between Fahrudin Suvalija, the boss, and my

11 colleagues of Serb and Montenegrin ethnicity who refused to work that day

12 because, because the above-mentioned sandbags, that is, bunkers, had been

13 placed in front of the company. Suvalija said he did not know the reason

14 for it and that they would be removed and was asking us Serbs and

15 Montenegrins to stay on and work, because the weather was bad at the time

16 and the power lines had been damaged.

17 The majority of Serbs and Montenegrins did not comply with this.

18 They left the company. Our colleagues of Muslim ethnicity stayed on, and

19 I also stayed on and my colleague Bozo Kulic because of Fahrudin Suvalija

20 had asked us to stay on and because I had worked with him for 15 years.

21 We've been together at this same job for 15 days [as translated], I

22 thought I should stay on with him and try to identify the damage to the

23 transmission lines.

24 So we were given our assignments, and with Mirsad Vehabovic, I was

25 to go to cover the area between the railway station in Foca and the

Page 5543

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Page 5544

1 village of Kozja Luka, that is in this area from Foca to Kozja Luka, we

2 should identify the damage, switch off the power in cases where the

3 transmission lines had been damaged or where another breakdown had

4 occurred. And as we went through those villages, we saw that there wasn't

5 a living soul around, as we say in our case. The curtains were drawn or

6 the blinds were down in houses, and that was like that until we arrived in

7 Kozja Luka. In Kozja Luka, we stopped by a coffee bar to ask if it was --

8 if we could go to the village of Kremni [phoen] and they told us that that

9 village was safe and that we could go there. And in that coffee bar in

10 that restaurant we found people of Muslim and a few people of Serb

11 ethnicity who were sitting there. They all had weapons, mostly hunting

12 weapons, and said, "Well, we are here guarding Kozja Luka, and you back

13 there in Foca, you idiots," pardon my expression, "you idiots can go to

14 war, but we are guarding our neighbourhood." So we went up there safely,

15 did what we had to do and returned round 1500 to the company's building.

16 Q. Tell me, when you returned, did you go with your colleague to a

17 cafe?

18 A. We went to the Cafe Bor. We took some drinks there and the cafe

19 was full of people, ethnic Muslims. I was the only Serb there then among

20 them. They were armed. If necessary, I can say that they had short

21 barrelled and long-barrelled rifles, and if necessary, I can give some of

22 the names that I remember to this Honourable Court.

23 Q. Please do.

24 A. Subasic, Saja, Jusufovic, Dervisevic and the others. You know,

25 it's been a long time and I can't remember absolutely everyone. There

Page 5545

1 were about 30 of them at that cafe, approximately.

2 Q. Tell me, please, before the war conflict broke out, did you see

3 citizens of Foca who were of Muslim ethnicity arming themselves?

4 A. Yes. I saw this on several occasions. I'll give you an example

5 if you wish, and perhaps even more. It so happened that I was returning

6 from town, and in a shop that is right next to a mosque and the Cafe Bor,

7 there was a breakdown in the electrical installations. A cable from a

8 thermal heater, an electric heater, burned down. And this man ran out

9 into the house, his name was Safet, and since we had known each other for

10 a long time he said, "Slobo, please help me, my shop will burn down." I

11 entered the shop and I took care of the fuses. I cut the cable. Part of

12 the installation was already burning. So I threw water on it and I

13 separated and isolated the cables so I managed to localise this. And

14 Safet said to me, "Let's go to Cafe Bor for a drink." We came in, and

15 acquaintances of ours were sitting there. We ordered coffee. There were

16 three policemen sitting there, one of Serb ethnicity and two of Muslim

17 ethnicity. And at that time, they carried automatic rifles and pistols on

18 their belts. The rifles had been put in the corner by their table. The

19 two policemen who were ethnic Muslims went out of the cafe. We had

20 coffee. And the ethnic Serb policemen remained in the cafe. When we

21 finished our coffee, we went out of the cafe, and as I went out, I said

22 good-bye to Safet. And in the street, perhaps 15 or 20 metres away from

23 that mosque, the policemen were carrying Kalashnikovs. I started

24 wondering, how come they got out without any weapons and they had weapons

25 to carry then? They were carrying these weapons towards Ramo Dzendusic's

Page 5546

1 house. I went to my company and I said that the next day or the day after

2 that to an ethnic Serb policeman who was one of the police commanders, and

3 I said, "Well, how come -- how come policemen can be distributing weapons

4 in broad daylight and carrying them out of the mosque?" He said I was

5 crazy, and that was the end of that.

6 The next thing I saw was the following. I came home from work one

7 afternoon. And I went out to my balcony and since my apartment is on the

8 fifth floor, and Ramiz, Mehmed Sljivo, Sahinpasic, Semir have apartments

9 at the same level and you can see that, it's only 150 or 200 metres away,

10 and you can see things very clearly, this was unloaded into Mehmed

11 Sljivo's house, these were boxes with rifles judging by the size. I

12 realised that these were boxes with rifles, whereas the boxes with

13 ammunition were smaller and they unloaded those into the garage. And just

14 before it was dark, about 5:00 or 6.00, a kombi van came belonging to the

15 national park and Ramiz Sljivo was driving it. And out of that van, they

16 were unloading ammunition in the house that was next door to Ramiz's. I

17 took a pair of binoculars to see what was going on. These were mortar

18 shells in these boxes and they were putting that into that house up there,

19 next to Ramiz's house. And in the basement, they put a submachine-gun on

20 the window of that house because that house is above the settlement as

21 such. Actually, from that window, you can see part of this settlement,

22 part of this neighbourhood, and you can keep it under control that way.

23 Q. Tell me, please, sir, where is your apartment, in which part of

24 Foca?

25 A. My apartment is in the part of town which is called Donje Polje.

Page 5547

1 It starts from the bridge on the Cehotina river and ends by the bridge in

2 front of the KP Dom in Foca.

3 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, these events that you just described

4 to us, in terms of carrying weapons out into Mehmed Sljivo's house and

5 Ramiz Sljivo's house, when did all of that happen? Can you tell us?

6 A. This happened -- this happened about ten or 15 days or perhaps

7 even earlier than that, because you know, before the war operations began

8 in town -- I mean, that's it. I can't tell you exactly. I can't give you

9 the exact date, but this happened before and after the elections that were

10 held for MPs, those who were supposed to go to the parliament of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. Sir, do you know a person named Aziz Sljivo?

13 A. Of course. Aziz Sljivo or rather his father's house, Mehmed's

14 house, is about 50 or 60 metres away from the place where I live and it's

15 about 30 metres away from the company that I work for.

16 Q. Before the war conflict broke out, actually during the time that

17 you're speaking about, who did Aziz Sljivo work for, do you know?

18 A. He was a driver and he worked for Senad Sahinpasic, nicknamed

19 Saja.

20 Q. Thank you, sir.

21 A. You're welcome.

22 Q. Let us go back to the 8th of April, 1992, now. You said that from

23 your window, you saw people lined up. Were these people armed?

24 A. Yes, they were. They wore camouflage uniforms. They had

25 different kinds of weapons, Kalashnikovs, the Russian drum-like rifles,

Page 5548

1 the semi-automatic rifle, military rifle for the most part, hand grenades,

2 et cetera.

3 Q. Did they wear uniforms?

4 A. Yes, the entire unit wore camouflage uniforms.

5 Q. Do you know whether this was a unit that consisted of people of

6 ethnic -- of Muslim or Serb ethnicity?

7 A. I saw them very briefly. I said that I went out to the balcony

8 only in order to get my rain coat, but I saw three men who were standing

9 and talking to Minko Jusufovic. Those were Sajo's assistants, or rather,

10 people who worked for Sajo, and this unit was completely Muslim.

11 Q. You said to us that after that you called your supervisor?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that he said to you that you and your colleagues shouldn't

14 come to work?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did someone come to your apartment then after this conversation?

17 A. A neighbour of mine came. I stayed in the apartment, and first my

18 brother-in-law came because he went -- he wanted to go to work, too, but

19 they made him go back as well, and then after that Momcilo Solaja came.

20 He's a colleague of mine from the same company. He had also set out to go

21 to work, and since there was already a barrier by the Cafe Bor, he tried

22 to enter the company, but when he saw the barrier, when he saw the barrier

23 in front of Cafe Bor and he had to cross the bridge on the Drina by the KP

24 Dom, there were trucks there and the bridge was blocked.

25 In the house of Saban, I think his last name is Jusufovic - the

Page 5549

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Page 5550

1 man died, and he had started building a house - Momo later said when he

2 came to see me that in that house there were about 30 Muslim soldiers

3 there, and since my building is 20 metres away from the company, he came

4 to my apartment, and he stayed in my apartment until about 6.00 in the

5 morning the next day.

6 That evening my neighbour also came, or rather, my neighbours

7 [redacted] and his supervisor, Sefko Djujandzic [phoen], with their

8 wives. And they said "Slobo," since I was a huntsman and I had weapons,

9 they said, "Slobo, we came, neighbours, so that you could guard us." And

10 I said, "Who should I guard you from?" And they said, "From some kind of

11 soldiers." And I said, "Well, please come into my apartment. Wife,

12 please give them something to eat and drink." And then I went in front of

13 my door. I took a carbine and I sat at a chair that I put there and I

14 said, "For as long as I am alive, you are safe."

15 They stayed in my apartment I think until 1.00 or 1.30, after

16 midnight. After that, they went to my neighbour's place, [redacted] place,

17 and he is one floor below me, and that was the end of that.

18 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, the other neighbours from your building,

19 did they organise some kind of guard duty in front of the building?

20 A. I don't know about the other entrance. I didn't go there that

21 day, or rather, that night, but the next day, the next day we organised -

22 how should I put this? - a joint guard. Since I had four pieces of

23 weapons, three rifles and a pistol, that is, I gave one rifle to [redacted], I

24 gave another one to my brother-in-law, and I kept the third rifle and the

25 pistol. Then Djendusic had a semi-automatic rifle, he's another neighbour

Page 5551

1 of ours; and Juso Bostandzic, he had a carbine -- or rather, this was a

2 military weapon that had been remodelled so that was the weaponry we had

3 at my entrance. These were the people who had weapons, who were armed,

4 and we were guarding our entrance or, rather, the basement and the

5 entrance, if you prefer to put it that way.

6 Q. The persons you mentioned just now, are they ethnic Muslims?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On that day or the next day, did some persons come to your

9 building?

10 A. About 200 people came to my building, both entrances included,

11 because it was the safest one in that area, that is to say, people who

12 lived in houses above my building and also in other surrounding buildings

13 because the basement was below the level of the road, or whatever you

14 choose to call it, the street, so people thought that that's a safe place

15 in view of the shelling and everything. And there were men there, women,

16 children, both of Serb and Muslim ethnicity.

17 Q. During those days, did armed members of the Muslim army also come

18 to your building?

19 A. Yes. During the first days, young men came, members of those

20 families, younger men. They left weapons by the electric metres in the

21 entranceway and they would enter the basement unarmed.

22 Q. Did you manage to see these weapons that they left up there?

23 A. Yes, of course I did. These were mainly automatic weapons,

24 Kalashnikovs for the most part. And I also saw a few Thompsons and a few

25 semi-automatic rifles, Yugoslav made.

Page 5552

1 Q. Did members of the Muslim army have rifles that are called

2 Moskovka?

3 A. Yes, that's right, they had that. When they took the KP Dom, they

4 got them, and they brought such weapons to my building and also two boxes

5 full of pistols, Zastava make, 7.62 millimetres. They were cleaning

6 because these were conserved pistols. And on the orders of Juso

7 Bostandzic, my neighbour, I was putting together the Moskovka rifle

8 because they didn't know how to put it together, but they knew I was a

9 huntsman and that I was familiar with weapons.

10 I assembled this rifle, and I gave it to a man who was an ethnic

11 Muslim, and he went to stand guard in a garage which was in the immediate

12 vicinity of my building. That garage belonged to Atif Kapidzic.

13 Q. On the 9th of April, 1992, after the Serbs took the part of town

14 that is called Aladza, did some other members of the Muslim army come to

15 your building?

16 A. Yes, a doctor, a dentist, Aziz Karahasanovic came. I was in the

17 basement at the time. He came and he was cursing my mother, and he was

18 looking for me. He found me, and he wanted to kill me. That's why he

19 came.

20 He came to the place where the firewood was stacked in front of

21 the building, and he took me out there and he pointed a Kalashnikov to

22 me. And then Juso Bostandzic my neighbour, and then [redacted], another

23 one of my neighbours, and [redacted], they went out and

24 they managed to free me then from him because they told him, and I wasn't

25 aware of that, that his mother -- or rather, that his house was burned and

Page 5553

1 that his mother got killed in the house.

2 However, I returned to the basement, and they put me there amongst

3 the Muslim women so that they could hide me there. Two or three hours

4 went by, I can't say exactly now, perhaps even less. Then Aziz reappeared

5 and, again, he took me out in front of the building, and then he put the

6 Kalashnikov down and he said "Slobo, don't be afraid." I was irritated.

7 I was informed that my mother was killed and that my house was burned, but

8 that was not true. And he said, "Don't be afraid. I'm not a soldier of

9 Saja's. I am a soldier of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina established

10 three days ago." After that, I did not see him again.

11 Q. Was this the only time when they wanted to kill you there at your

12 building?

13 A. Unfortunately, no. Again, two young men came, Kara Hodza and a

14 young man I don't know, and they took me out again to this place where the

15 firewood is stacked with the intention of killing me. However, Salko Lojo

16 came, Dzevad's father, and he stood between me and them, and they -- and

17 he said, "What have you got to do with my neighbour Slobo? Who is your

18 commander?" He went to the command -- or, rather, to my company because

19 at my company was the hospital and the command of their army. He

20 returned, and then they let me go, but they took my brother-in-law out of

21 the basement and they took him to the yard of the house where he had

22 lived.

23 They threw him down, and they asked him for weapons, and he said

24 that he didn't have any weapons, so they threw him down and they wanted to

25 cut a cross into his forehead. And I asked Juso Bostandzic, [redacted],

Page 5554

1 and the old Salko, I said, "Neighbours, friends, please help me. Don't

2 let them kill my brother-in-law." They went there, and they managed to

3 get my brother-in-law released, so thank God all of this ended well.

4 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, did Bostandzic then ask you to do

5 something?

6 A. Yes. It was in the afternoon. A sniper came from the Muslim

7 army, and he had a sniper rifle, Yugoslav made, and an automatic rifle on

8 his back. He was shooting at a window, and actually, this was on the

9 eighth floor of the building of the furniture shop that is about 150

10 metres away from my building as the crow flies, and the window was a bit

11 broken. Allegedly there was a Serb sniper there, and he tried to

12 eliminate him. However, his sniper was not adjusted properly, so he fired

13 three bullets, but he didn't manage to hit that window.

14 And then Bostandzic said to me, "Jovancevic, take the carbine,"

15 since I had a sniper on the carbine and since I was a huntsman, and I was

16 a good marksman, he said that I should silence this sniper or destroy it.

17 And I said that I didn't want to shoot at Serbs. It's better for me to be

18 killed by them than to have Serbs kill me if I shoot at them. That's all.

19 Q. Did these Muslims take weapons?

20 A. Yes, two young men came, Kameric and another one. They took me to

21 my apartment, and they said, "Look, Slobo, you should hand over your

22 weapons. We are in charge of searching these buildings. Give us your

23 weapons and your telephone so that we don't tear them out of the wall."

24 They gave me a certificate, Kameric signed it and I signed it. They took

25 away my small calibre gun, my carbine, my hunting rifle and my baretta

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Page 5556

1 pistol, and also two telephones, and they gave me this certificate to that

2 effect, and they said that these weapons would be in Fahrudin Suvalija's

3 safe box within 15 minutes to half an hour.

4 Q. Did you ever get these weapons back?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you, sir.

7 A. You're welcome.

8 Q. Tell me, please, at that time, in your building, did the members

9 of the Muslim army forbid the Serbs to leave the building?

10 A. Yes, they did. That happened when the Serbs took the

11 neighbourhood of Cohodar Mahala, and then my colleague came to see me,

12 Mirsad Vehabovic, together with his mother, father, wife and young child,

13 young son. They came practically without any clothes and proper footwear,

14 and there was still electricity at that time so I fed them. And Mirsad --

15 when they disarmed me, Mirsad and his father had soldiers' rifles and they

16 were the ones who stood guard and we Serbs became hostages. We were not

17 allowed even to go to the toilet without being escorted by men or women of

18 Muslim ethnicity.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Your Honour, I think

20 that this would be a good moment to take a break.

21 JUDGE HUNT: We will resume at 11.30.

22 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic?

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 5557

1 Q. Can you hear me, witness?

2 A. Yes, I can.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. Not at all.

5 Q. Before the break, we were talking about how the inhabitants and

6 tenants of Serb ethnicity were told by Muslims they were not allowed to

7 leave the town. But tell me, while were you in the basement of your

8 building, did you hear about some Serb houses being set on fire in Donje

9 Polje?

10 A. Yes, yes, I did. I did hear that Mr. Krnojelac's house was put on

11 fire and also his neighbour's house, Drago, was also torched, and other

12 houses, including Savo Obrenovic's house, and he works in the post

13 office. It is a whole row of houses behind Mr. Krnojelac's house. They

14 are on a plateau on a foot of a hill called Celovine.

15 Q. Thank you, sir.

16 A. Not at all.

17 Q. Tell me, while you were kept in your building, did Senad

18 Sahinpasic's soldiers come to the building?

19 A. They did. They came in the late afternoon hours, that is at

20 dusk. Subasic, nicknamed Raho, walked in front of them, carrying military

21 rifles in his hands, two in each hand, saying, "Get away, the commander is

22 coming. Silence." And following him, following him and Mr. Sahinpasic

23 entered, camouflage uniform, a Schmeisser, a bag with reserve charges, and

24 they were standing on the second stair as one goes down into the

25 basement. And Sahinpasic addressed my wife and others with a kum and kuma

Page 5558

1 and how we used to address one another, and he said, "Kum, don't be

2 afraid. No one will harm you." And Subasic said, "Serb, don't be

3 afraid. You won't miss a hair from your head." And I said, "Yes, but

4 nobody guarantees my head." And that was the conversation. With them,

5 they were about 30, maybe even 40 men, that is his unit, they broke into

6 all Serb flats, put us all under a lock, and they took Vlastimir Todovic's

7 flat, and from those flats, soldiers took all sorts of objects, and we saw

8 that when we went back. All the flats up to the fourth floor were broken

9 into and the higher floors and bed-sitter on the fourth floor, which was

10 Mrs. Zora's but she died, a nurse, and my neighbour, [redacted], said

11 that above that floor there were no more Serbs, that is Serb flats,

12 because the majority of those did not come from the town originally so

13 that those flats remained closed. And my flat also remained closed, but

14 my colleague's flat was broken into. My colleague Kulic's flat was broken

15 into.

16 Q. And tell me, did Sajo's soldiers loot only flats that belonged to

17 Serb, to Serbs?

18 A. Precisely, because on lower floors my building, namely, is

19 shielded by the building in front of it, and in -- they were Muslims, that

20 is, in Muslim flats were their owners and friends and neighbours who had

21 come to my building from that part of the building and other parts of the

22 town.

23 Q. Thank you. And tell me, after they looted Serb flats, as you say,

24 did they -- did Sajo's soldiers take you, who had been kept in there, did

25 they take you to those flats and lock you up there?

Page 5559

1 A. It happened after Sahinpasic left. He spent the night there with

2 his group, and the next day in the afternoon he left my building. And

3 around 18.30, that is, between 18.30 and 1900, they took us -- or, rather,

4 they distributed us around flats, both Serbs and Muslims who had been in

5 the basement, because Muslims -- soldiers of Muslim ethnicity began to

6 arrive in the basement, those who were retreating from positions that they

7 had held on the part of Celovine hill and I presume in other parts,

8 because there was fighting going on.

9 And we stayed in the flats. There was a Muslim soldier in front

10 of each apartment. We mostly sat on the floor for our safety because of

11 the bullets. And we stayed there until 9.00, that is, until 2100, and

12 then the order came, "Take only your basic necessities. We're going to

13 the KP Dom, the last stronghold of their army." That is how they put it.

14 Q. You mean the Muslim army?

15 A. Yes, I mean the Muslim army. The last stronghold was the KP Dom.

16 So we started off in a column. There were about 200 of us, both Serbs and

17 Muslims, and we moved, half running, carrying only the basic necessities.

18 Many discarded their bags because they must have taken more than they

19 could carry, and that is how we got to the KP Dom, that is, to the

20 administration building.

21 There they put us on the first floor in their treasurer's office

22 of the KP Dom, which is a small room, and we were 28 of us, some Serbs,

23 some Muslims. My wife, my children were there, and we put the women

24 behind the desk. We had removed the glass, because outside there was

25 gunfire; fighting was going on above the KP Dom. And we were sitting on

Page 5560

1 the floor, and that is where we spent the night.

2 The first from our group to leave was -- Safet Rizanovic came. He

3 was one of the commanders, my neighbour, and he was a commander of one of

4 the units. And he took out his son-in-law, Milan Steric, who had married

5 the daughter of his late brother. He took him out and they left, and we

6 stayed there until early hours of the morning, until about 4.00 in the

7 morning.

8 There was a commotion. People were coming in and going out, but

9 around half past four, my neighbour, [redacted], opened the door, because I

10 said, "[redacted] will you go out and see what's going on?" We could hear

11 foul language, how they were cursing at Sahinpasic, Rizvanovic, those

12 commanders of theirs, their soldiers, presumably, and because Muslim

13 families were put up in the rooms of the penitentiary, that is, in the

14 rooms of the administration building, and I suppose also inside the

15 compound. I guessed that. I don't know that.

16 They set off because at that time the fighting had stopped. Not a

17 bullet was fired at that time. And we came out at around twenty to six.

18 We came out. We went to the front of the building --

19 Q. Excuse me, sir, I have to interrupt. Can you tell me if this

20 means that fighting went on all night long behind the KP Dom?

21 A. Yes, until those early hours of the morning, the gunfire never

22 stopped. The windows, the glass windows in that room that we were in had

23 been broken, and only the bars were still there. So that was why we were

24 sitting on the floor. We simply sat on the floor to have some safety, at

25 least; that is, we were beneath the window. We were sitting or

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Page 5562

1 squatting. Some were lying down. Children were put behind this desk, the

2 cashier's desk, because we thought it was likely safer, that it was better

3 shielded than the rest.

4 Q. And tell me, did you hear that morning people in other rooms leave

5 the KP Dom, and whom did you see in front of your door?

6 A. Well, after those expletives, and they started sometime after

7 midnight, and at that moment when we went out, and that was after 4.00 in

8 the morning, we came out into the passage and we saw three other office

9 doors open, and from one of them a woman with a child came out and an

10 elderly woman and two young men.

11 Kameric was coming in their direction with a rifle in his hand,

12 and he cursed, and their mother said, "Where are you fleeing? I am

13 Ustasha. I'll fight down to the last one." So one of these soldiers who

14 were with the women, he approached him and with his Kalashnikov, that is,

15 hit him with the barrel of his Kalashnikov in the stomach. This elderly

16 woman grabbed at the automatic rifle, said, "Don't do it, son." And in

17 that interval of some 50 seconds or maybe a minute, during that minute we

18 managed come down, to cover those two metres to the staircase, and that is

19 how we joined the group which was coming down from the floors above us.

20 And in that crowd at around twenty to five, we went through the

21 administration building's door outside the penitentiary.

22 Q. And when you came out, what did you see then?

23 A. The platform in front of the administration building to the

24 bridge, the road, the bridge itself and the road across the Drina, they

25 were all teeming with people: women, children. It was a general

Page 5563

1 commotion. They could have been, I should say, 3.000, give or take a few

2 hundred, because it is a large area.

3 And the first ones who had crossed the bridge, that column, that

4 long column, some 2 or 300 of those who were in front of the others, they

5 had already reached the staircase of the hosiery factory, of the knitwear

6 factory, and were moving towards Ustikolina.

7 Q. Did you hear whether people were to leave and how in all this

8 commotion, all this fray? Did you hear anything?

9 A. Well, after a while we stood there right next to the door, perhaps

10 a few metres away from the door, our group had halted there and stayed in

11 that area. And my neighbour [redacted] and my colleague Mirsad said, "We're

12 now to -- before the day breaks, while it's still dark, we should get to

13 the village of Hamdici," which is, I should say, about 3 kilometres, 3 and

14 a half kilometres away from the place where we were. "We should get

15 there, and then buses will take us group by group to Ustikolina, and from

16 there to Gorazde."

17 Q. And with your group, with your family, did you go to Gorazde?

18 A. No, I did not set off to Gorazde because I thought that regardless

19 of what they were saying that they had relatives in Petkovci and that I,

20 my wife, my brother-in-law and our children and my brother-in-law's wife,

21 that they would try to get to Pljevlje safely because there I have another

22 relative. I did not feel safe. That is, I was afraid that, upon arrival

23 in Ustikolina, I might have to face the same thing that I had already

24 faced. So I had decided to go back to Donje Polje, that is to go back to

25 my building. And then I said, "Who is coming with me?" And I took my

Page 5564

1 sons by their hands and I asked my neighbour, [redacted], coming with

2 me?" And at that moment, neither [redacted] nor my wife nor my brother-in-law

3 wanted to go but I started by the hall of the KP Dom, I walked by the wall

4 of that building and I was wearing hunting clothes, that is a green suit

5 and a red sweater and my hat, and my brothers were wearing -- that is I

6 had taken off my leather jacket and my wife had taken off her jacket, and

7 the little ones were small, these jackets were dragging on the ground, but

8 I held them by their hands and did not look back.

9 And thus, I walked past the furniture exhibition and went on. And

10 in that hall, there was a group of Muslim soldiers and they were having a

11 rather heated discussion. On the other side of the street there were

12 three or four of them, I think, on the staircase of the restaurant, of the

13 so-called canteen, that is what the KP Dom's restaurant was called, and I

14 walked past and nobody stopped me. And I -- I was some ten metres from

15 the bakery in Donje Polje, and there I was halted by two soldiers. There

16 were two soldiers there and I was halted by Aziz -- he used to work in the

17 bank, and a man whom I do not know, he said, "Slobo, stop." And I

18 stopped. And he said, "Where are you off?" And I said, "Aziz, I'm going

19 to my flat." Maybe I said, "I'm going to hell" or something. I don't

20 know. How shall I put it? I was in a very bad state. And he said to me,

21 "Go to my building, that is the first building behind the bakery, go the

22 basement there, because there are about 70 people there." I don't know

23 exactly whether he said 50 Serbs and 20 Muslims or the other way around.

24 But he said, "Go there. You'll be safe there. So my colleague ..." --

25 Yes, Aziz Sahinovic, that's his name. "So my colleague and I are in

Page 5565

1 charge of the safety there."

2 And I said, "Aziz, let me go to my flat." And the man next to him

3 looked darkly, cocked his Kalashnikov and at that moment, behind my back,

4 some -- I heard somebody shout, "Aziz, is that you?" And there was this

5 morning haze because the day was breaking, at that point, and somebody

6 said, "Aziz, is that you?" And he said, "I am." "So where are you off?"

7 "Well, I'm off with my neighbour Slobo to our building with [redacted]"

8 A whole column had set off and my wife and my

9 brother-in-law and his wife and other Serbs from that group of ours who

10 had been in that cashier's office in the KP Dom, and that is how I reached

11 the building, and we entered the building and went up to the fourth floor

12 to [redacted] and Kulic's flat and that is where we tried to manage. There

13 was no electricity, so we made a fire, made some tea and got warm a

14 little.

15 Q. Did you stay in that flat for some time?

16 A. Because [redacted] still had his telephone, he called his daughter who

17 was in a part of the town called Cohodar Mahala, and seven or eight days

18 before the fighting started, she had married so he called them and they

19 said that they were in their house, the Serbs were holding that part of

20 the town. So after that, I called my colleague, Vucic who lives in the

21 part called Prevrac and I asked him to call my sister, who had fled to

22 Prevrac from the part of the town called Aladza to let her know that I was

23 alive and that we were in our building. And we stayed there until --

24 until afternoon. At that time a fierce gun-fire started and we went down

25 to the basement and in the basement we stayed until about 1.00, perhaps

Page 5566

1 even 2.00 in the morning, and because it was terribly cold, we came out of

2 the basement and went to the bed-sitter on the first floor and we made a

3 fire there, looked after our children, women prepared some food but none

4 of us could eat anything. That is how we spent the night. In the early

5 hours of the morning, we heard -- because there were cars parked in front

6 of the building, and underneath the window there was a Yugo which belonged

7 to Dr. Mandzo, a new car bought perhaps a month before, and we looked

8 through the blinds and saw three men wearing dark blue uniforms with red

9 berets and patches of HOS and they broke the glass of the car, pulled out

10 the cables. First they broke into a Fica car, but could not switch the

11 engine on, yet they managed to switch on the doctor's car, and we did not

12 see them again.

13 And then we went back to the fourth floor and when we left on

14 there, that is we went to basement to get some fire wood and next to the

15 front door, there was a plastic bag, and I pulled it with a plank because

16 one could still hear a sniper now and then, and every five minutes or so,

17 bullets would pass by my front door. So that [redacted] and my brother-in-law

18 pulled that bag inside and in it, there were three pieces of dynamite and

19 charges, Vitezit, and I took several of those, improvised hand grenades

20 and I closed the front door and said, "Let's now go to the fourth floor.

21 If any of the soldiers come, then I will throw this dynamite and I shall

22 mine the staircase" so that my wife, my children, my brother-in-law, my

23 neighbour [redacted], could be safe.

24 And we went upstairs and after a while, perhaps even a few hours

25 later, the front door opened and I told [redacted], -- I had taken two pieces

Page 5567

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Page 5568

1 of the two of those dynamite rods and I took my lighter and said, "I'm

2 going down to the second floor. If I come back, fine. If I don't come

3 back, then try to send my children to Belgrade." And as I went down,

4 [redacted] remained at the front door. As I was coming down from the fourth

5 floor to the third floor, I heard a woman's voice, "Anyone alive?" I said

6 nothing. Then I walked another flight of stairs, that is I was down on

7 the second floor by then. And I could see that -- I could see a female --

8 or rather I saw the barrel of an automatic rifle, a soldier, and behind

9 him a woman, my neighbour, Desanka, a teacher, walking behind him. And

10 she again said, "Anyone alive there?" And I said, "Desa is that you?"

11 And she said, "Yes, it's me. Thank God that you're alive," because she

12 had been in the town where there were Serbs, she had a sister there, and

13 she had come to fetch some of her clothes. So she came with Niko

14 Krnojelac and with -- in a Lada, and I asked Niko and Niko told me that

15 Donje Polje was free. You want me to stop?

16 Q. Yes. You said that you were in the building with [redacted]

17 family and your family; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How long did your family stay in that building?

20 A. In that building, well, from the time that we left the KP Dom --

21 well, we spent a day and a night and we left the next day, it was Sunday,

22 I believe, we left around 1.00, when Mrs. Desa came.

23 Q. And where did you go after that?

24 A. And then we went -- well, we headed for a suburb called Barakovac

25 because my wife has relations there. And neighbour [redacted] and Desa came

Page 5569

1 with us because we had to go through the part called Cohodar Mahala. That

2 is the neighbourhood where [redacted] son-in-law and daughter were. And we

3 left them in that house. I told [redacted], "[redacted], come with me," because

4 we had arrived to Cohodar Mahala safely, "Come with me to Barakovac," but

5 he stayed behind and I went on to Barakovac and my family stayed in

6 Barakovac for 20 odd days as refugees, to put it that way.

7 Q. And were you with your family during those 20 days?

8 A. Well, no, not all the time. I was in the early days there because

9 sometime on the third or the fourth day, Radio Foca carried the order that

10 all military conscripts should report to the -- to their combat

11 assignments, so that I reported to Elektrodistribucija, to the power

12 distribution company, because that is where I was assigned. And in those

13 early days I went to Elektrodistribucija every day and went back to

14 Barakovac then.

15 Q. Was it your labour assignment at Elektrodistribucija?

16 A. Yes, because that is where I was assigned. Those were my combat

17 orders.

18 Q. Can you tell us, when did you come to Elektrodistribucija to learn

19 what were -- when did you report there?

20 A. I don't understand what you're asking me.

21 Q. Well, you say that when you heard the summons that everybody

22 should report to the place to which he was assigned, and you said that you

23 went to Elektrodistribucija, to the power distribution company, do you

24 remember the date? Do you remember it?

25 A. I cannot remember exactly, but I know it was four days after I

Page 5570

1 left Donje Polje, so 18th, 19th. It could have been the 20th. I don't

2 know, I'm not sure of the date.

3 Q. And did you then from your superior get a document?

4 A. Yes. The first day I went to report there, I had a problem

5 because I did not have a pass because the curfew had been declared so that

6 one could not leave the town without a pass. And I went to my superior,

7 Bozidar Arsic, and he brought me a pass allowing me to move between Foca

8 and Barakovac issued by the Serb authorities.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please help me to

10 show the witness a document ID D143.

11 A. Yes. This is the pass which I was issued at the time.

12 Q. Is that a permit to move between Barakovac-Foca, signed by

13 Radojica Maljenovic, the president of the executive committee?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Did you give the original of the document to the Defence team?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Thank you, sir.

18 A. Not at all.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] We shall not need the document any

20 longer. Thank you.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Do you propose to tender that, Mr. Vasic?

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection?

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be D143.

Page 5571

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. So at that time, were you staying in Barakovac, and did you go to

3 work to Foca every day?

4 A. I spent the first few days in Barakovac, and then there was no

5 electricity, no power in town. That is to say that my colleagues who were

6 assigned work duty just like I was, they managed after eight days to get a

7 ten-kilowatt transmission line between Celebici and Foca operative, and

8 that way we managed to maintain one kilowatt.

9 Q. Since we're talking about power anyway, can you tell us, when did

10 you leave Barakovac and go to Foca?

11 A. Well, I think it was about ten or 12 days later. My family stayed

12 somewhat longer, perhaps 20 something days, and I returned and went to

13 work.

14 Q. Why did you have to go to Foca from Barakovac and stay there all

15 the time?

16 A. Because in the meantime power was restored, as I said, and since

17 there were very small quantities of electricity available, there were

18 severe restrictions. There was the military, the PTT office, the bakery,

19 the hospital, and the KP Dom that got electricity first, while households

20 had occasional brownouts, and they had restrictions giving them

21 electricity only from one to three hours a day, for example, when the

22 bakery would not work or when the hospital would not need such large

23 quantities of electricity which we had made available.

24 Q. After you came to Foca, did you get yet another permit from your

25 foreman?

Page 5572

1 A. Yes, I did, because a curfew had been imposed. And our

2 installations are not automated, so power had to be interrupted manually

3 in various transformer stations throughout town, so practically one had to

4 be able to move about town 24 hours a day. That is why Arsic, Bozidar

5 gave me and my colleagues permits to move about during curfew hours as

6 well, and that was from 8.00 p.m. until 6.00 a.m.

7 Q. Did the curfew apply to all citizens of Foca?

8 A. Yes, of course. Even for us who worked for the power company and

9 other such companies. That is to say, it applied to all citizens who were

10 in Foca at that moment. At that time, that is.

11 Q. Both for Serbs and for Muslims?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

14 would now like to show the witness document ID D144.

15 A. Yes, that's the permit, the one that I got from my supervisor.

16 Q. So that's a permit which gave you freedom of movement during the

17 police curfew in order to make it possible to have a proper electric power

18 supply; is that right?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. Thank you, sir.

21 A. You're welcome, sir.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like to

23 tender this document into evidence.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

Page 5573

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Page 5574

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit D144.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Sir, you said to us that the curfew went on from 8.00 p.m. until

4 6.00 a.m.?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And can you also tell us how long there was a curfew in the town

7 of Foca?

8 A. The curfew, well, I cannot tell you exactly, but it lasted until

9 larger quantities of electricity came to town. How should I put this?

10 How can I say this? While it was necessary. I mean, it was for the

11 authorities to say. I cannot tell you now whether it was a month or

12 perhaps a month and a half or two months, but it was a longer period of

13 time.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. You're welcome.

16 Q. Tell me, please, did you get orders in writing from the director

17 of the power company, and was that your war assignment?

18 A. Yes, yes. I got that decision, and it says very precisely that

19 that is my war assignment. I got that, I got that from my supervisor.

20 Q. Can you describe to us now the situation regarding the electric

21 energy system in the town of Foca after war operations?

22 A. To be very brief, Foca gets electricity from Gorazde. Since these

23 transmission lines were cut, we had simply remained without power. Only

24 the area of Celebici, which is about 50 kilometres away from Foca and

25 which gets electricity from the transmission line from Montenegro that

Page 5575

1 goes from Pljevlja to the hydroelectric power plant of Mratina, that area

2 had electricity.

3 We did not have electricity for about ten days, and when we

4 repaired the transmission line that was damaged during the war operations,

5 this ten-kilowatt line going from Zavajt to Foca, through it we managed to

6 get about one megawatt of energy. In order to present this quite clearly,

7 I can say that Foca at that time used about twelve and a half megawatts of

8 electricity, and we got about 700 or 800 watts, that is to say, less than

9 one megawatt during those first days.

10 If necessary, I can go on. Because of the power shortage, we did

11 something we have never done before. We cut the isolators on the

12 transmission line towards the hydroelectric power plant of Mratina, and

13 that is how we managed to join into this transmission line that goes to

14 Mratina. And through this 220-volt line, we got energy, about 3 megawatt

15 of energy. So altogether, we had a bit less than 4 megawatt of power.

16 That is when the reductions subsided a bit, and the production of Maglic

17 and other factories was resumed. So households had power cuts frequently

18 while the factories were working because it was important to keep the key

19 companies going. Also, the hospital, the post office, and the military

20 got power as well.

21 Q. Tell me, please, what was the minimum of electricity that was

22 needed for keeping the production going in Maglic?

23 A. Well, when Maglic operates, it requires about two and a half

24 megawatts, you see. It is precisely these quantities that we gave to

25 Maglic, and the surplus was distributed between the other companies that

Page 5576

1 had also started working. But priority was always given to the post

2 office, the military, the hospital, the bakery, the KP Dom, and we

3 delivered power to them in certain intervals because the manufacturer of

4 these boards in Maglic cannot be interrupted because special substances

5 are used. So if there is a breakdown of electricity, then their machinery

6 has to be cleaned and various other things have to be done, so we try to

7 give them electricity whenever possible.

8 But there were frequent breakdowns because this transmission line

9 had been made specifically for the building of the hydroelectric power

10 plant of Mratina. So it wasn't really large quantities of electricity

11 that could be diverted in this way, and that is why we started building a

12 35-volt transmission line from Foca to Celebici. In that way, we could

13 get the same quantities of energy, perhaps even a bit more, but we

14 wouldn't have to go to Cercicko Polje because the fuses kept breaking down

15 there very often. And sometimes we had to go to Gorazde and Sola [phoen],

16 and there were no transmission lines at Cercicko Polje, either, so that's

17 why we did this. That's why we started carrying out preparations for

18 this.

19 And after six months when we finally made this transmission line,

20 27 kilometres 620 metres long, then we again got connected. Then again we

21 manage to reconnect the Montenegrin, the transmission line, because it is

22 the compensation line for the hydroelectric power plant of Mratina.

23 Q. First of all, tell me when did you do this? Which year was this?

24 A. This was in 1994.

25 Q. Tell me, please, you said that in 1992 and 1993 Foca had 4

Page 5577

1 megawatt when you took electricity from this hydroelectric plant from

2 Mratina, and you also said that 2 megawatt were taken by Maglic. Does

3 that mean that the entire town used 2 megawatt?

4 A. Even less than 2 megawatt because from time to time, pretty often

5 we had to provide electricity for the Branko mine in Miljevina, you see.

6 Because the transmission line from Kalinovik that gave electricity to

7 Miljevina was often interrupted, and the population in general had about

8 one to one and a half megawatts available to them, and that often led to

9 power cuts.

10 Q. You said that before the war, the town needed 12 megawatt?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that you had 2 megawatt that had -- that were made available

13 to the town itself, apart from Maglic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You had an order of priority, didn't you?

16 A. Yes. I mentioned that, primarily the army, the post office, the

17 hospital.

18 Q. In which order of priority?

19 A. Yes, this was during the first days while the factories were not

20 working, but when the factories were working, then the first priority was

21 Maglic and then all the rest that I mentioned.

22 Q. Was there enough electricity for these priorities at that time?

23 A. Well, no. Because on the basis of everything I've said so far,

24 you can see that these were very small quantities, so they got energy too,

25 but not 24 hours a day, only a few hours a day.

Page 5578

1 Q. Did they call you from the city bakery to get the pumps going,

2 those that were run on oil and did help?

3 A. Yes, indeed, but there were very small quantities of crude oil.

4 The bakery got oil in terms of grams that we used to put it, so imagine in

5 a reservoir of 30.000 litres you put 250 litres of oil into it, and that

6 cannot raise the level by one millimetre basically. So often we had to

7 make repairs, because the pumps would also pump mud and things like that.

8 So then we wanted the pipes to go as deep down as possible, that is to

9 say, into the fuel that had remained, and where there was this sludge, and

10 this led to frequent breakdowns so when there was no electricity, then the

11 bakery had to use firewood or rather they used the bakery in the KP Dom

12 that uses firewood.

13 Q. Do you know that in towards the end of 1993, the furnaces of the

14 town bakery were repaired and then they started using solid fuel?

15 A. Yes. They tried to do that but there weren't sufficient resources

16 for that at the time and there also weren't any experts who would do it.

17 This was done only later and it was a small wood-fired furnace that was

18 adjusted but the rest required oil.

19 Q. Sir, tell me, please, how long have you known Milorad Krnojelac?

20 A. I've known Milorad Krnojelac for about 30 years. Actually we've

21 known each other since the time when Zavajt -- when electric energy was

22 introduced into Zavajt where he worked as a teacher then. We also know

23 each other well from the time when he worked at the school that was

24 attended by my children. I know the entire Krnojelac family because I

25 worked on the electric installations of his relatives' houses, and I

Page 5579

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Page 5580

1 performed various jobs for them. I checked their electric isolations and

2 things like that so, yes, I've known him for some 30 years.

3 Q. Do you know that his wife is an ethnic Croat?

4 A. Of course I know that. I know when he built his house in Foca.

5 Then in his house, two Christmases were celebrated, both the orthodox and

6 the Catholic Christmas. Milorad is a sociable man, a good teacher, a

7 broad-minded man. He does not distinguish between people on the basis of

8 religion and ethnicity. He tried to help the children he was teaching.

9 He taught math, a difficult subject, and he always tried to understand

10 everyone. That's the way I see things. And that's what I can say about

11 him. I can say all the best about him. There is not a single bad thing I

12 can say about him.

13 Q. Can you tell me whether Milorad Krnojelac belonged to a political

14 party, to any political party, before the war conflict broke out?

15 A. As far as I know, yes, he belonged to the same party that I

16 belonged to, and that was the Communist Party of Yugoslavia, which was

17 later transformed into the Communist Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. You are referring to the Communist Party?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. That is to say the League of Communists?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was he a member of any nationalist party and was he politically

23 involved in the period before the outbreak of the war conflict?

24 A. As far as I know, he was not. I had not heard of any such thing.

25 I don't know anything about that. I don't think he was.

Page 5581

1 Q. In 1994, did you do some work at Milorad Krnojelac's house?

2 A. Yes, I did. I came to see how electricity would be initially

3 turned on in his house because the installation had already been made, and

4 the house was being built, and since the house had been burned down

5 before, part of the house was being repaired, the walls, et cetera. So

6 then, when a part of the house was completed, then we installed the

7 electricity there. So I do that kind of thing. I do electricity

8 measurement. So I came there to inspect his measuring instruments and to

9 reinstall electricity in his house. I was there then.

10 Q. You said that it was repaired but was it possible to live in the

11 house at the time or was it only covered by a roof?

12 A. No, you could not live there. It was only covered by a roof.

13 When I said that it was repaired, I was just referring to part of the

14 electric installations, so it was only that power could be used, for

15 example, only one plug, one bulb, but it was not a properly equipped

16 house. You couldn't live there.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, the

18 Defence would now like to get ID D1 and we'd like to show the witness

19 photograph B1 to say whether that is Milorad Krnojelac's house.

20 A. Yes. This is Milorad Krnojelac's house.

21 Q. Thank you. We won't be needing the photograph any more.

22 A. In this part, if I understand the photograph properly, this part.

23 Q. Which part?

24 A. How should I put this?

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please give the

Page 5582

1 witness a pointer?

2 JUDGE HUNT: You have to point to it on the photograph which the

3 usher has in his hand there rather than on the television screen, so that

4 we can see where it is you're pointing to.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. It's out on the ELMO there, on the right-hand side.

7 A. I think it is this part of the house.

8 Q. Do you mean this is the part of the house which existed in 1994

9 when you wired it and switched on the power?

10 A. The house was up to a part of roof. This had burned down, if I'm

11 reading this properly. There is another house next to Milorad's house.

12 Now, because of these what they call them, because of this scaffolding on

13 this lower part, I'm not really -- how shall I put it? I don't really

14 have the best picture. This part was done, how shall I put it, from an

15 angle. Depends on where you look at it from. But this here part, there

16 was another house which was also demolished like Milorad's, and this is

17 how it was done. Now, I can't -- I can't really go into details here.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness has shown

19 on Exhibit ID D1, photograph B1, the left part of the building, which was

20 built before the right part of the building, which has not yet been

21 plastered, and he said that this house belongs to Milorad Krnojelac.

22 Thank you.

23 Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions for this

24 witness.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. For the Prosecution? Ms.

Page 5583

1 Uertz-Retzlaff?

2 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Good afternoon, witness.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Good day, witness.

8 A. Good day.

9 Q. When the war started in Foca, you were about 42 years old, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you participate in this war as a soldier at any time?

12 A. Yes, at a point when there was mobilisation I was ordered by my

13 superior, so I went and was in the area of Lokvice in a bunker to which my

14 group was assigned. We were to hold positions there.

15 Q. When were you mobilised, do you recall which day it was?

16 A. It was sometime before the New Year, after St. Nicholas -- after

17 St. Nicholas's Day. I cannot give you the exact date but it was before

18 the New Year.

19 Q. That is, by the end of 1992, is that what you mean?

20 A. I mean yes, that is the period that I had in mind. I can't

21 remember the exact date.

22 Q. We don't need the exact date. Were you actually -- before the

23 war, were you actually registered in the military registers of Foca?

24 A. Before the war, my war assignment, I'm from -- I went to serve the

25 army from Foca. I went to serve my regular army service from Foca, if

Page 5584

1 that is what you mean.

2 Q. I was actually thinking of the time just before the war. Were you

3 at that time, let's say in the beginning, 1992, were you registered with

4 the Territorial Defence?

5 A. I was -- I don't know whether I was registered with them but my

6 combat assignment was with my company, and before that, there was a

7 Territorial Defence unit made of men from several companies. So I

8 attended those exercises before the war, a few days every year, if that is

9 what you have in mind.

10 Q. And what rank did you have?

11 A. I'm a sergeant.

12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac was also a member of the TO, right?

13 A. He was with the Territorial Defence, and I was in a unit made of

14 Elektrodistribucija, footwear corporation, Maglic platoon, mine platoon.

15 It was a battalion, as they called it then, which was to act as a special

16 unit intended to destroy enemy paratroopers and that kind of units in case

17 of an aggression.

18 Q. Mr. Krnojelac was a Captain 1st Class, right?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. What exact function did he have in the TO?

21 A. I don't know. He was not called up for exercises that I attended,

22 if that is what you mean.

23 Q. Yes. You said that you worked in the Elektrodistribucija. What

24 exactly was your working position? Were you a normal electrician?

25 A. During the war, I did everything, but before the war, I was in a

Page 5585

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Page 5586

1 group for electric power measurements and that is under the department for

2 purchase and sale of electric power. And during the war, I did everything

3 that had to do with power distribution. I mean handling operation,

4 removing of breakdowns, repairs, anything that came up.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. Not at all.

7 Q. How many workers were employed in your company? Approximately?

8 Not the exact number.

9 A. Before the war, we were 73, if my memory serves me well.

10 Q. And it was Serbs and Muslims, right?

11 A. Yes, both Serbs and Muslims and Montenegrins and I think there

12 were also -- that there were two Serbs and Montenegrins more than one half

13 of the total number but in Valter Peric in Sarajevo, which is my mother

14 company, they employed 1700 people, but I wouldn't know any other details.

15 Q. Among these 73, how many were Muslims?

16 A. Well, I'm telling you, that was the ratio. There were three

17 more -- now, if you divided, we were 38 and they were 35.

18 Q. Seval Soro was one of your colleagues, wasn't he?

19 A. He was.

20 Q. How old was he before the war?

21 A. I can't tell you exactly, but he could have been 24 or 25,

22 thereabouts, not 30, less than 30, and that is what I think. I never

23 asked him.

24 Q. And what kind of job did he have in your company?

25 A. He was responsible for assembly of equipment and he drove a Gaz.

Page 5587

1 Q. What is a Gaz? He drove a Gaz. Is that a special car, or what is

2 it?

3 A. It's a Russian vehicle, a special purpose vehicle with a front and

4 a rear gear, seating six people and enough room for all our tools. It

5 looks like a jeep. I don't know really know how to describe it.

6 Q. That's enough of a description, thank you. Where did he live

7 before the war?

8 A. He lived in Cohodor Mahala, or to be more precise, in the upper

9 part of that neighbourhood is where he had a house.

10 Q. Was he married?

11 A. Yes, he was.

12 Q. Did he have children?

13 A. He did.

14 Q. How many children?

15 A. Two, I think.

16 Q. Do you know how old the children were?

17 A. I can't really remember. I don't remember. I know they were

18 small. I don't know.

19 Q. Mr. Soro does not work in your company today, right?

20 A. People of Muslim origin do not work in my company since the

21 beginning of the war.

22 Q. When did you see Mr. Soro for the last time?

23 A. On the day before the fighting broke out. He went with Kulic, my

24 colleague, as I already explained that, to repair some failures, and that

25 was the last time that I saw him in my company, because after that

Page 5588

1 happened things that I have already described.

2 Q. Mr. Soro was arrested and detained in the KP Dom, right? Do you

3 know that?

4 A. I've heard about it.

5 Q. And he disappeared from there without trace, right?

6 A. I have no knowledge of that.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's number C-24.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

10 Q. Mr. Esad Kiselica was also one of your colleagues, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. He was a handicapped man, wasn't he?

13 A. That's right. He had an accident, but he survived. It was a

14 10-kilowatt he suffered at a subtransformer station, yes. He was

15 electrocuted by a 10-kilowatt, and a large part of his kin [as translated]

16 burnt down, but he recovered. Yet, of course, he could not do most of the

17 jobs he used to do previously.

18 Q. How old was he when the war started, approximately?

19 A. Esad?

20 Q. Yes, Esad.

21 A. I think he was three or four years younger than I am.

22 Q. And where did he live?

23 A. He lived in the centre of the town in a building in the immediate

24 vicinity of the Zelengora Hotel.

25 Q. Was he married?

Page 5589

1 A. He was.

2 Q. Did he have children?

3 A. He did.

4 Q. How many children?

5 A. He had a son and a daughter.

6 Q. When did you see him for the last time?

7 A. Same day as the other colleague, that is, a day before the

8 fighting broke out.

9 Q. He was arrested and taken to the KP Dom, right?

10 A. I have no knowledge of that, but I've heard -- but I heard it from

11 my neighbour [redacted] because her husband, [redacted], and I testified

12 about him, too, was arrested also.

13 Q. And do you know that Mr. Esad Kiselica disappeared from the KP Dom

14 without a trace? Did you hear that, too?

15 A. I have no knowledge of that.

16 Q. You didn't see him any more, right, after the war?

17 A. No, I did not, no.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's the person C-12.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

21 Q. Adil Granov, do you know this person?

22 A. No.

23 Q. He did not work in your company?

24 A. No, he did not.

25 Q. Mr. Nail Hodzic, was he -- did he work --

Page 5590

1 A. Yes, he worked in the same company. He was a driver there.

2 Q. How old was he, approximately?

3 A. Sixty-ish, I should say.

4 Q. And where did he live?

5 A. He lived in the immediate vicinity of my company, or rather, two

6 houses away from the company, 15 metres or so. He was a lodger there

7 because he had sold his house.

8 Q. Was he married?

9 A. He was, and had two daughters from his first marriage and no

10 children from his second marriage. He had married a second wife.

11 Q. When did you see him for the last time?

12 A. Same again, same as those other colleagues: On that last day when

13 we all came to work, and after that I did not see anyone.

14 Q. He was arrested and taken to the KP Dom, right?

15 A. I have no knowledge of that.

16 Q. Did you hear it afterwards?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. He disappeared as the others, right?

19 A. That is something that I do not know.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-10.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23 Q. Do you know a Husein Rikalo?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was he one of your colleagues?

Page 5591

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Page 5592

1 A. Yes, of course.

2 Q. What did he do in your company?

3 A. For a while he was a warehouse keeper, and later on he became an

4 assembly man.

5 Q. And how old was he?

6 A. Oh, I don't know. Twenty-five, -six, I'd say. I don't know

7 exactly.

8 Q. And was he married?

9 A. He was.

10 Q. What about children? Did he have children?

11 A. He did, a child and a wife.

12 Q. And where did he live in Foca before the war?

13 A. Before the war he lived -- at first he lived in his parents' house

14 in Cohodor Mahala, and then the company gave him a flat in Gornje Polje in

15 a building with two flats, a type of barracks, and he moved there.

16 Q. And when did you see him for the last time?

17 A. Well, like all the others, before that day. Before the war, that

18 one day before the fighting began.

19 Q. And he was arrested, taken to the KP Dom, and disappeared, right?

20 A. I heard about it. I heard that he had been to the KP Dom, but I

21 do not know what happened to him.

22 Q. You mentioned Mr. Fahrudin Suvalija, your former chief. He's a

23 Muslim, he's a Muslim, right?

24 A. He is, yes. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Suvalija is no more your boss, right? You have a different

Page 5593

1 boss now.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He's no more in Foca, is he?

4 A. I have a lady boss in Foca. If you mean my previous boss, I don't

5 know where he is.

6 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

7 A. I don't know. The lady boss received a disposition -- that is,

8 the former boss was moved to another -- was transferred to another

9 company. That was the information that I had.

10 Q. Mr. Suvalija is no more living in Foca, right?

11 A. I did not see him since the fighting began. I haven't seen him to

12 this day. His house still stands, but there are people of Serb ethnicity

13 living there, and I do not know where my colleague Suvalija lives. I did

14 not see him. I haven't seen him around Foca.

15 Q. Was Mr. Suvalija also arrested and detained; do you know that?

16 A. I do not know. I've heard that he had left, that he had left for

17 Ustikolina, Sarajevo, and perhaps further on. That is what I heard from

18 my neighbour, but I don't know.

19 Q. These people that we just discussed, they were not soldiers, were

20 they? They were civilians. They were your colleagues, right?

21 A. When I saw them last in the company, they were civilians. As for

22 after that, I don't know. I do not know whether they became soldiers or

23 continued as civilians because I did not communicate with them. I had no

24 opportunity, no occasion to see them.

25 Q. You said that you lived in Donje Polje, and you also had described

Page 5594

1 to us what you observed in Donje Polje in relation to war preparations at

2 the start of the war.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you also come across neighbourhoods that were predominantly

5 Serbs? Before the war, just before the outbreak of the war, did you go

6 through those neighbourhoods as well?

7 A. On the day before the fighting started, I passed through

8 localities mostly populated by Serbs and localities mostly populated by

9 Muslims, and I already said that there was not a living soul there.

10 I was still with my colleague. And all the curtains were drawn

11 and nobody came out of their houses. Everything was locked. Dead silence

12 reigned there, you know, until we got to that pub that I mentioned and

13 discussed about how we would proceed, if that is what you mean.

14 Q. I was actually thinking more about Foca itself, the Serb

15 neighbourhoods in Foca like Cerezluk and others. Did you go there and did

16 you see that the Serbs also prepared for an armed conflict?

17 A. I did not go there, but I heard from my neighbours, from a friend,

18 he said, "Slobo, come to look at it. Take the binoculars." It was right

19 in front of the building, "Come and see where your Chetniks had placed

20 their mortar," and that is on an elevation in the upper part of Cerezluk.

21 We know that that's how it was, and that is how the two of us commented.

22 And I looked through the binoculars, it could have been a few days before

23 the fighting broke out.

24 Q. You mentioned, you mentioned Ramo Dzendusic, and I didn't really

25 understand of which time period you spoke. You mentioned that you saw a

Page 5595

1 policeman, a Muslim policeman going towards his house with rifles. When

2 was that?

3 A. In summer -- or, rather, in autumn, a few months before the

4 conflict broke out.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 1.00.

6 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn until 2.30.

7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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Page 5596

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Sir, before the break, we were talking about Ramo Dzendusic and

5 you had told us what you had observed in relation to the Dzendusic house

6 was actually from the summer, 1991, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And Mr. Dzendusic, was he an older gentleman, do you know?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How old was he, approximately?

11 A. I think that he was over 60.

12 Q. Do you know where he worked?

13 A. Yes, at the National Defence, or as it was actually called, the

14 Secretariat of National Defence.

15 Q. And what kind of job was it that he had? What did he have to do?

16 A. I'm not aware.

17 Q. When the war broke out in April, 1992, Mr. Dzendusic wasn't a

18 soldier, right?

19 A. I think he was not.

20 Q. Because of his age or why do you think that?

21 A. I think he was a retiree.

22 Q. Mr. Dzendusic was arrested and taken to KP Dom, right?

23 A. I'm not aware of that.

24 Q. Did you hear about this later?

25 A. Nothing.

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Page 5598

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour this person, Dzendusic, is

2 mentioned in Schedule C under number 8 and also in Schedule B under number

3 20.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

6 Q. Witness, you also mentioned Aziz Sahinovic and you described how

7 you met him when you left the KP Dom.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was Mr. Sahinovic in uniform when you saw him on this day?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What kind of a uniform was it?

12 A. A military uniform.

13 Q. The former -- the former -- the uniform of the former Yugoslav

14 People's Army? Or something different?

15 A. A uniform of the former army, of the JNA.

16 Q. Do you know if Mr. Sahinovic was in the TO, like you, before the

17 war? Do you know that?

18 A. I don't know which unit he was in.

19 Q. Did Mr. Sahinovic on this day, did he have a weapon when you met

20 him on that day?

21 A. Yes, yes, I'm not sure, but it was an automatic rifle, either a

22 Yugoslav one or a Kalashnikov.

23 Q. You said that he actually then accompanied you to your -- to this

24 place you went to, right?

25 A. I didn't say that. I said that thanks to my neighbour [redacted] who

Page 5599

1 was a personal friend of Aziz's, Aziz offered me to go to his building, to

2 his basement.

3 Q. After that day, did you continue to see Mr. Sahinovic?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know that he was arrested and taken to the KP Dom?

6 A. I'm not aware of that.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person, Sahinovic, is

8 mentioned under 5.29 in the indictment. There is a specific paragraph.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

11 Q. Did you ever attend SDS party meetings?

12 A. No. I'm not a member of the SDS or the SDA or any other party,

13 except for the former communist party of Yugoslavia.

14 Q. So you would not know who exactly was a member of the SDS, right?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. And you would also not know who would be a supporter of the SDS,

17 right?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Mr. Jovancevic, you said that you stayed in your apartment

20 building, or rather, in the cellar for quite some days, right?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. How many apartments were in your building?

23 A. Thirty-two, I think, in both entranceways, that is. Fifteen in my

24 entrance, five studios, five one-bedroom and five two-bedroom apartments.

25 Q. And the tenants in this building were both Muslims and Serbs,

Page 5600

1 right?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. How many, can you say how many Serb -- Serbs and how many Muslims?

4 A. At my entrance there were, let me see, Kulic, Soro, Sreta -- there

5 were six families that were Serb and the rest were Muslims. Among these

6 families that I mentioned as being Serb, there was one Croat, actually,

7 who died before the war.

8 Q. And how many Muslim families would that be? You just mentioned

9 one entrance. How many Muslim families were in your part of the building?

10 A. Nine Muslim and six Serb.

11 Q. And the other entrance, was it similar or different?

12 A. It was different. I think that there were more Serbs, perhaps in

13 terms of one or two tenants only.

14 Q. And your former Muslim neighbours, they do not live there any

15 more, right?

16 A. For the time being, they don't live there any more. One Muslim

17 apartment had been vacated in my entrance on the ground floor, and the

18 rest of the apartments now house refugees and people who had lived there

19 from before, including myself.

20 Q. In the cellar when you took shelter there, you mentioned that

21 there were a lot of people taking shelter there, both Serbs and Muslims,

22 right?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. The majority of these in the cellar, were they Muslims or Serb, or

25 was it half-half?

Page 5601

1 A. It was predominantly Muslims - there were less Serbs - from the

2 neighbourhood and from Aladza and then later also from Cohodor Mahala, my

3 colleague Rizvanovic with his family, and also some people from other

4 parts of town, even.

5 Q. Where were the Serbs, the Serb tenants of this building?

6 A. I didn't understand your question.

7 Q. Where were the Serb -- your Serb neighbours who had lived together

8 with you in this building, where were they? Had they moved out to other

9 neighbourhoods in Foca when this occurred?

10 A. The Serbs who on the 8th, when the war operation started, were in

11 the building, for about one hour, one could get into the centre of town.

12 Cars came with their relatives and they came to pick them up and they took

13 them there. I was the only one who remained with my wife and family and

14 my brother-in-law, the only Serb, that is. And my neighbour, a lady

15 called Sreta, and the rest they had left, all of them. I don't know where

16 they went, they went in the building. My colleague-- my neighbours, the

17 Serbs, and also Muslims from this part of town.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

19 put a sheet of paper in front of the witness, just covering one name that

20 has been mentioned meanwhile by the witness on several occasions and it

21 will be distributed to everyone.

22 Q. Sir, in the course of our -- of this examination, please do not

23 repeat the name of this person and also --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And also do not mention the number that you see also on this -- on

Page 5602

1 this sheet of paper. Just refer to --

2 A. I understand.

3 Q. Yes. And just refer to him as your neighbour and then we know

4 whom you are talking about.

5 A. I understand.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. That will be Exhibit P454 and it will

7 be under seal.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

9 Q. You mentioned that this person and his wife and other person came

10 to you when the war started for help, right?

11 A. Yes. Not help, so that they could stay at my apartment, in order

12 for me to protect them if the building is attacked by some soldiers, and I

13 asked, "Which soldiers?" And they said, "Some soldiers." So that's the

14 way it was. And I took them into my apartment.

15 Q. Did he live in your apartment building?

16 A. Yes, one floor down. That is to say, we had the same type of

17 apartment, one-room apartment. He was on the fourth floor.

18 Q. And why did he come to you?

19 A. I don't know about that. He came -- we were good friends, we were

20 good neighbours. He came with his director, I already said that, and his

21 wife.

22 Q. Yes. Did he come to you because you had weapons and he had not?

23 A. Probably. I don't know.

24 Q. Did you later on accompany this person, his wife, to Cohodar

25 Mahala?

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Page 5604

1 A. Yes, I did, later, when we got out of Donje Polje.

2 Q. And when -- do you recall when that was?

3 A. The next day, the following day, after leaving the KP Dom.

4 Q. And on your way to Cohodar Mahala, did you encounter a group of

5 Serb soldiers? Do you recall that?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Did these soldiers order your neighbour to put up his hands?

8 A. I was the first, walking that group, they stopped us, they said,

9 "Stop." And they were about 80 metres away from us. I said, "I have

10 stopped." "What's your name?" I put my hand up, three fingers actually.

11 I said, "Slobodan," and he said, "Pass. What's your name?" "Vidoje."

12 "Pass. What's your name?" "Vida." "Pass. What's your name?"

13 "[redacted]." "Pass. What's your name?" "(redacted)." "Stay here. What's

14 your name?" "[redacted]." "Stay here." Perhaps I made two or three steps and

15 then I put my hand up again and I said to the soldier on the right side,

16 assuming that he was the commander, I said, "Brother, he had saved my

17 life." And the order was, "Go with them." So we set out towards the

18 bridge. We encountered a group of soldiers there. And we asked how we

19 could go to Cohodar Mahala. And they told us to take the so-called Riva

20 [phoen]. That is the road that passes above the Cehotina river, because

21 that is the lower part of town, so I reckoned that that would be safer,

22 and that's how we reached Cohodar Mahala, safely. I, my sons, my wife, my

23 brother-in-law, his wife, and my neighbours, (redacted). There we

24 came to his brother-in-law's house and (redacted) stayed at that house. We

25 had coffee there. And after that, I proceeded to Barakovac and he stayed

Page 5605

1 there with his wife.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour, the name was

3 mentioned on several occasions and it should be redacted.

4 JUDGE HUNT: The problem is that I think the witness was going so

5 quickly that there are an awful lot of circumflexes in the text, so we

6 will just have to ask the audiovisual people to listen to it. I thought I

7 heard the name, too, but we will have to work out which ones it's with.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's also in the transcript, it's at least

9 once.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, once there.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Twice. I see it twice.

12 Q. You said that this neighbour - and please don't say his first name

13 and not his last name - you said this neighbour was your friend.

14 A. I do apologise. I did this unconsciously.

15 Q. Yes. That's understandable. Don't worry. You said he was your

16 friend?

17 A. Thank you. Yes.

18 Q. He was arrested and detained in the KP Dom for two and a half

19 years, right?

20 A. I know that he was arrested. (redacted) said she was in town

21 for a long time and she was among the last to leave on a bus, among the

22 last to leave Foca. (redacted) was at the KP Dom -- I don't know for how

23 long. I just know that he was in the KP Dom and she went to visit him,

24 and I sent a pack of cigarettes and whatever else I had, if she would

25 manage to see him to give it to him and to say hello to him.

Page 5606

1 Q. This neighbour was in the KP Dom because he was a Muslim, right,

2 for no other reason? Isn't that right?

3 A. I don't know whether that's the reason. I was informed by his

4 wife that the military police came and took him to the KP Dom.

5 Q. But he was not a criminal, right?

6 A. You cannot say that. First of all, he was a good man and a good

7 friend of mine.

8 Q. And he was not a soldier, right? He was together with, he was

9 together with you --

10 A. While my neighbour was with me, he was not a soldier, if you

11 consider that to be a soldier, I mean, while he was carrying my rifle

12 together with me while we were guarding the entrance to our building and

13 our families and neighbours.

14 Q. You had quite a few rifles, and you had explained what it was in

15 detail. Since when did you have these rifles?

16 A. I got these rifles, I inherited them from my late father, and the

17 carbine I got later because I took the carbine for a type of hunting, a

18 type of game, actually, for which that kind of weapon is needed. From

19 1982 -- I'm sorry, 1983. I do apologise.

20 Q. Thanks. It's not unusual for citizens in Foca, especially men, to

21 have hunting weapons, right?

22 A. No. There were about 1.200 of us who were members of the Hunters

23 Society, and we came from all ethnic groups.

24 Q. So to own a weapon, especially a hunting rifles in Foca, didn't

25 make you a soldier, right, I mean automatically?

Page 5607

1 A. I cannot be the judge of that. My personal opinion is that people

2 know exactly what hunting weapons are used for, and we hunters considered

3 ourselves to be sportsmen. It's a sport.

4 Q. I heard from your, from your testimony that you know quite a lot

5 about weapons, and you mentioned that you saw these Moskovka rifles, and

6 you said that they came from the KP Dom. How do you know that?

7 A. Well, I heard about that from my neighbour Juso Bostandzic, the

8 one who gave me the Moskovka to assemble. It's the first time in my life

9 I'd seen it then. I'd only heard about it, that it was a lethal weapon.

10 Q. And these weapons that you collected, they were not in working

11 order, were they? They did not function, right?

12 A. Do you mean my weapons?

13 Q. No, those Moskovka weapons.

14 A. The weapon was disassembled. It had not been assembled, and I did

15 not really have an opportunity to see whether it could work or not. I

16 just put this part together so perhaps the rifle could fire, but nobody

17 tried to fire it in front of me. Juso gave it to him and gave him his

18 ammunition -- I mean, Juso gave the man who brought the rifle the

19 ammunition of his own gun because I didn't even know the calibre of that

20 rifle. I had never seen it before, and I was not sure whether it could

21 work or not. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you, thank you. You mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac' house was

23 destroyed. From the 5th floor of your building, you had quite a view over

24 Donje Polje, didn't you?

25 A. Yes, until the war broke out, and then until all of that ended, I

Page 5608

1 did not dare go out on my balcony. I didn't even go to my apartment.

2 Actually, I did only once to get a bottle of wine and to take it

3 downstairs to the basement with my friend. And it was at night, say

4 between 2.00 and 3.00 in the night.

5 Q. But when the fighting had ceased and when the Muslims had

6 withdrawn, did you see that houses in Donje Polje, Muslim houses, were

7 burning?

8 A. I already said that for a while I was at Barakovac. That is about

9 5 kilometres away from my building. I was there with my family.

10 Q. Yes. And when you returned, what did you see? Did you see

11 destroyed Muslim houses?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see that the mosques were destroyed in Foca?

14 A. Yes, yes. Well, you can see the mosque that was destroyed, you

15 can see it from my balcony, and it's only the lower part that is there.

16 The minaret is missing.

17 Q. Were you there when this mosque was destroyed?

18 A. No.

19 Q. When did you return to your apartment, your apartment block, your

20 building?

21 A. I can't say exactly. I think about ten or 12 days after getting

22 out of the KP Dom.

23 Q. At that time when you returned to your home, did you see that

24 Muslim apartments in your building were searched by Serb soldiers?

25 A. I didn't notice anyone. I just found my nextdoor neighbour in the

Page 5609

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Page 5610

1 building, Dule. Later, my neighbour [redacted] came and my wife came later.

2 The other apartments were empty, both the Serb and Muslim apartments.

3 There were only three or four of us in the building during those first

4 days.

5 Q. And later in May?

6 A. Later, neighbours returned, my Serb neighbours who had left, and

7 also I think that our neighbour [redacted] was there from time to time. She

8 would come to the apartment, and she would come to another lady, a

9 neighbour, Zora, and spend the night with her because she felt safer

10 there. Before leaving Foca, she left part of her things with her

11 neighbours, and she left me some leather, if that's the right word for

12 that, and it's still in my apartment to the present day.

13 Q. Did you observe that Muslim men were arrested in their homes and

14 in the streets and taken to KP Dom?

15 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

16 Q. You said that the fighting stopped -- when the fighting stopped,

17 that you started to work again in Elektrodistribucija, right?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. And you called it a combat assignment. Why do you call it this?

20 A. Because that's what it says in my military booklet, the place

21 where I'm supposed to report when there is a state of alert and danger of

22 war. It says Elektrodistribucija in Foca.

23 Q. And was a general mobilisation actually announced? Do you recall

24 that?

25 A. No, but the fire alarm was sounded frequently to signal a danger,

Page 5611

1 and we were duty-bound to report to the company before the war, even, not

2 to mention, of course, the wartime.

3 Q. So you, when you heard these alarms, you simply went to this

4 company as you knew you had to do, and then you started working there; is

5 that how it was?

6 A. It was before combat operations, we were all duty-bound to report

7 to Elektrodistribucija, and the power cut was longer than 15 minutes. And

8 in the early days of fighting, I spent most of my time -- sometimes days

9 at a time I spent in Elektrodistribucija because that was my wartime

10 assignment. That was my order. And if there were any combat operations

11 or if that fire alarm sounded -- so if you call it that mobilisation, some

12 people went to the front and I was at the, at the Elektrodistribucija at

13 that time, I and other colleagues of mine.

14 Q. Except for that it was now a combat assignment or a war

15 assignment, you still did your job, that is, working as an electrician,

16 right?

17 A. Yes, that is right.

18 Q. We do not need to go into the details. You have described

19 everything quite clearly. But I have a question in relation to the

20 distribution of electricity. You mentioned the priorities, among them KP

21 Dom and the bakery, but there was a generator in the KP Dom, right? They

22 had a special generator there, didn't they?

23 A. Yes, they did, but as far as I know, that generator supplied power

24 only for the lighting of the compound. That is for the search lights on

25 the wall in the guard booths. That is not the generator which can meet

Page 5612

1 all the needs of the Drina combine that is the KP Dom. That is a

2 generator only for emergency cases, as far as I know.

3 Q. You mentioned that you -- you mentioned the city bakery. Is that

4 the only bakery in Foca? Or was it the only one at that time?

5 A. At that time, only the so-called city bakery which is still in

6 operation, and another bakery which was in the KP Dom compound, as far as

7 I know. There were no other private bakeries.

8 Q. And from when onwards did the city bakery work properly? When

9 could they work?

10 A. Well, I don't know what you mean by normal, but in those early war

11 days, or rather for several months, until the situation was more stable,

12 until the electric power supply was not brought back to normal, it worked

13 rather irregularly and rather abnormally, and it was only when the

14 reconstruction was finished and when communication was established, when

15 the fuel began to arrive, then I suppose it began to work at a higher

16 capacity, but I don't know what its capacity was. I mean, people who

17 worked there should know that. I don't.

18 Q. You said that they worked also with fuel and even with wood. When

19 did they do that?

20 A. It was the bakery in the KP Dom which was fueled by wood, but

21 sometime, I don't know where, then in the bakery a furnace was redone and

22 it was -- it was to begin to use the solid fuel rather than electricity.

23 But I didn't do it and I do not know when it was converted to solid fuel.

24 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the place Barakovac, which is also

25 mentioned in your movement permit. How far is it from Foca?

Page 5613

1 A. From the building in the company that I work for, about five

2 kilometres.

3 Q. You have seen this movement permit. You have actually provided

4 it. Did you have to obtain several such permits or did -- was that the

5 only one that you got and it served the entire time?

6 A. Well, I had that pass and other permits that you have had the

7 opportunity to see after that. I received dispositions on the labour

8 obligations, signed by the manager, pursuant to article such and such of

9 the law. I can't remember it all. It all says in the disposition.

10 Q. But the movement permit, that's the only one? And then you also

11 have this curfew movement permission.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

13 show the witness again Defence Exhibit 144.

14 Q. Witness, this document is not dated. Have a look at it. It's not

15 dated. Do you recall when you received this?

16 A. I received it after the previous one. It was Bozidar Arsic who

17 brought it to me. That is, I received it when the power eventually

18 reached Foca, and I cannot give you the exact date. But it was after the

19 first pass and my superior at the time, Bozidar Arsic, brought it to me.

20 At that time, there were power cuts and I was one of those responsible to

21 cut the power to some parts of the town at different time intervals, from

22 one morning to the other, according to the schedule.

23 Q. Thank you. That's enough. Sir, you said that you knew Mr. --

24 A. Not at all.

25 Q. Sir, you knew that -- you said that you knew Mr. Krnojelac for

Page 5614

1 more than 30 years. How well did you know him?

2 A. Well, I think pretty well, and I've already told you what I think

3 about him.

4 Q. Were you friends?

5 A. We were good acquaintances. Whenever we'd meet, we'd have coffee

6 and a drink, regardless of the time of the day. And I also came to his

7 house to do repairs of various appliances which do tend to break from time

8 to time, because this is a moonlighting job that I did.

9 Q. You said that you also knew relatives of Mr. Krnojelac, right?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Do you know the brother, Arso Krnojelac, the driver?

12 A. Yes, indeed. We are both members -- we were both members of the

13 fire brigade, volunteers in the fire brigade at the time.

14 Q. Did he have a house in Zavajt?

15 A. In Zavajt? I know about Arso's house in Cerezluk, the part of the

16 town called Cerezluk. I suppose since that family comes from up there, I

17 suppose they also have a house up there.

18 Q. You mean the Krnojelac family, the entire family, right?

19 A. Yes. I mean Arso, I also mean Risto Krnojelac. Where I did all

20 the wiring in the house, and he also built a house in Foca before the war,

21 and that is where I also did all the wiring, in his house and at his

22 brother Mirko's.

23 Q. Are you familiar with the area around the Serb cemetery in Foca?

24 A. I don't understand the question.

25 Q. You know where the cemetery, the Serb cemetery, the orthodox

Page 5615

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Page 5616

1 cemetery, is in Foca, right?

2 A. Orthodox, yes, of course, I do.

3 Q. And close to this orthodox cemetery, are there any houses or

4 enterprises?

5 A. Private houses, private houses, which belong to orthodox, and in

6 the locality above it, some -- both Muslims and orthodox have their houses

7 because it's a mixed part of the town. In a part, the orthodox built

8 their houses on the Muslim -- that is the land that the Muslims had sold

9 to orthodox.

10 Q. Do any of these Serbs living near the cemetery -- does he make

11 barrels? Do you know that?

12 A. He's a cooper, that he makes barrels? I don't know.

13 Q. Yes. Do you know Ms. Rada Sestovic-Krnojelac who was actually

14 present when you gave your statement? Do you know her?

15 A. Yes, I know the lady.

16 Q. What is her profession? Do you know that?

17 A. She's a lawyer in the town planning organisation.

18 Q. You knew that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden of the KP Dom in 1992

19 and part of 1993, right?

20 A. I did know it. Everybody in Foca knew it.

21 Q. You don't know what happened inside the KP Dom while it was --

22 A. I've never been in the KP Dom compound. I was only in the

23 administration building to read the metres and look for my colleague to

24 sign the record.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further question, Your Honour.

Page 5617

1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] You were asked by learned friend and said that

5 you knew that Milorad Krnojelac was the KP Dom warden.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you also know what were his terms of reference, what was his

8 jurisdiction, what was he responsible for in the KP Dom?

9 A. I think for the maintenance or, rather, the protection of the

10 factory and the farm which belonged to the KP Dom because that is what the

11 warden should do. I don't know about anything else.

12 Q. Did you ever discuss this, his duties, with your colleague in the

13 KP Dom, or did you talk about it to somebody in the bookkeeping or

14 accountancy department where you took your metre readings?

15 A. No, there was no need for it. I knew that Milorad was warden. I

16 was not really familiar with his duties. It was my colleague who signed

17 the record, that is how it was. That was the procedure well set before

18 the war so that I didn't have any other information about this, and

19 besides, I didn't try to learn anything about it. I didn't feel any need

20 to acquire that kind of information.

21 Q. And from those persons, did you learn that as a warden, he was --

22 he only ran the economic unit, or as you told us, the production and the

23 whole business sector?

24 A. Well, yes, on this form where I put in how much electricity had

25 been spent, what it says there is the Economic Unit, business unit, Foca.

Page 5618

1 That's its name, and I therefore think that he manages that part, that

2 particular organisational entity, or I don't know what to call it. I

3 don't know if you understand what I'm saying.

4 Q. I do, yes, thank you. You mentioned that the Krnojelac family

5 comes from Zavajt. Do you -- are you aware that the family Krnojelacs

6 comes from Birotici, which is 12 kilometres from Zavajt, and that Milorad

7 Krnojelac comes from Birotici not from Zavajt?

8 A. Yes, it was a slip on my part. I apologise to the Court. I made

9 a slip. I swapped Krnojelac and Kunarac, the two families. I just mixed

10 them up, and I didn't have the opportunity to set it right before, yes.

11 My slip.

12 Q. Do you, do you know if Krnojelac has a house in Zavajt, any of

13 their members?

14 A. Any house, you're asking me? Well, the gentleman worked up there

15 in the school, and I know him as a teacher from the school in Zavajt, and

16 later on from the school that was attended by my children when they were

17 enrolled.

18 Q. Yes, thank you. So you tell us that he worked there. He did not

19 come from Zavajt, he worked there only?

20 A. Yes, he worked there and -- well, and we simply put it that way,

21 Zavajt, the school, Mico from Zavajt; Mico, teacher from Zavajt. That's

22 how I know him, and that's how I've known him since that area began to

23 get -- from the movement when that area was connected to power supply

24 lines, because before that they had no electricity there.

25 Q. So let us just clarify it. The Krnojelac family does not come

Page 5619

1 from Zavajt, did not originate in Zavajt?

2 A. I had already told you that I put it badly, that I meant the

3 family Kunarac. And as for the Krnojelac family, I suppose it was a slip

4 of the tongue.

5 Q. Thank you. You already spoke about the decision or your labour

6 obligation that you received from your manager on the basis of a law which

7 had been adopted. Can you tell us whether this says that the labour

8 obligation actually is your combat order?

9 A. As far as I can remember, this disposition says that I am assigned

10 to my labour duty, and that is my combat assignment, yes.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. Not at all.

13 Q. When asked by my learned friend, you spoke about your colleagues

14 from Elektrodistribucija about whom you'd heard that they had been

15 arrested and taken to the KP Dom. Did you ever hear who arrested those

16 men?

17 A. No, I don't know that. They were arrested by the military

18 police. I know the military police arrested [redacted]; I don't know about

19 others.

20 Q. When asked by my learned friend, you said that when the conflict

21 broke out, you never saw Mr. Esad Kiselica again. How many people, how

22 many people from your former company you have not seen again since the

23 beginning of the conflict?

24 A. Since the beginning of the conflict, I did not see anyone until

25 now, of late. They had begun coming to Foca again, and I saw two, Ismet

Page 5620

1 Subasic and Rasim Hadziahmic. Nobody else so far.

2 Q. In other words, they began to come to Foca this year, perhaps last

3 year?

4 A. Yes. There are days when they come there on buses looking for

5 their -- asking for their flats, houses and flats.

6 Q. Have you heard anything about the two of them, where are they,

7 where -- that they were alive before you saw them in Foca?

8 A. No, no.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. Not at all.

11 Q. Do you have any knowledge if Mr. Ramo Dzendusic was a member of an

12 armed formation? Did he become a member of an armed formation after the

13 beginning of the conflict; that is, not if he was a soldier, but if he was

14 a member of an armed formation? Do you know anything about that?

15 A. No, I have no knowledge of that. I know nothing.

16 Q. You testified about refugees who, when the war broke out, entered

17 Muslim flats. Where did those refugees come from, do you know that, from

18 which areas?

19 A. From Sarajevo, from the area of Slatina, Godijevno, surrounding

20 localities, Ustikolina and suchlike.

21 Q. Were they refugees of Serb ethnicity whom the Muslims had driven

22 out of their homes?

23 A. Indeed, in the majority of cases, even though there were also

24 instances when people had expanded, that is, son leaving his father's

25 house and moving into another flat, those who were in Foca.

Page 5621

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Page 5622

1 Q. You testified about your neighbour, and you said that at some

2 point you were armed and he was not, and later on was he armed and you

3 were not whilst you were in the building that you both lived?

4 A. Yes, indeed. That was quite so.

5 Q. And when did that happen?

6 A. When my weapon was taken away from me, then only the Muslims were

7 left with the weapons. My colleague Mirsad, his father (redacted), and

8 Djordjic, they lived in the same building, apart from the troops who came

9 armed.

10 Q. You spoke about a certain number of hunting rifles which existed

11 in Foca before the conflict. You testified how they were used in hunting,

12 hunting taken as a sport. Can these rifles be used in an armed conflict?

13 A. But of course, any weapon can be used when the worst comes to the

14 worst.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. Not at all.

17 Q. When asked by my learned friend about the work of the bakery, you

18 said that its work improved slightly after the reconstruction. Did you

19 mean the reconstruction of the transmission grid, that is, power supply to

20 Foca, because you told us that in late 1993, it improved somewhat?

21 A. Later on, yes, or perhaps in 1994, the situation was back to

22 normal, and that is what I thought, the electric energy, and also meant

23 the fuel which began to arrive in Foca.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, witness. Your Honours, we

25 have no further questions.

Page 5623

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence here. You are

2 now free to leave.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for

4 listening to my story.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE HUNT: Your next witness is Mr. Mihajlovic?

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please make the solemn declaration which is

11 in the document that the usher is showing you, sir?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

16 WITNESS: MILOMIR MIHAJLOVIC.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

20 Q. Mr. Mihajlovic, good afternoon. Before I move on to direct

21 examination, I should like to ask you to make a break after you hear my

22 question. We speak the same language and we need that break to leave the

23 interpreters time to interpret the question first. On the screen you have

24 a cursor which writes out words, and when it stops, it means that the

25 interpretation is over and you can begin your answer. So will you please

Page 5624

1 tell me your name?

2 A. I am Milomir Mihajlovic.

3 Q. And when were you born and where?

4 A. I was born on the 14th of June, 1961, in Foca.

5 Q. And where did you complete your primary and secondary education?

6 A. I completed both my primary and secondary education in Foca.

7 Q. And where did you get a job and when?

8 A. In 1984 in the hospital in Foca.

9 Q. Are you married, do you have any children?

10 A. Yes, I'm married and I have two children.

11 Q. What part of Foca do you live in?

12 A. I live in the part of Foca which is called Cohodar Mahala.

13 Q. Thank you. Did you go to the Veselin Maslesa primary school in

14 Foca?

15 A. Yes. All the way to the eighth grade.

16 Q. And was your maths teacher in that school Milorad Krnojelac?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us something about your impressions of him as a human

19 being and as a teacher, as you remember him from that period?

20 A. I remember him as a good teacher and a good maths teacher, a fair

21 man, fair in marking pupils, and I remember that he tried to help even

22 those pupils who were not good at maths. He tried to make maths more

23 familiar to them.

24 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us about the ethnic composition of the

25 school, both as regards the staff and the pupils?

Page 5625

1 A. Well, maybe it was 50/50, because that was the ethnic composition

2 of the town.

3 Q. Did you ever notice that Milorad Krnojelac drew distinctions,

4 differentiated between Muslim and Serb children?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know that one of Krnojelac's sons, before the conflict

7 broke out, was the proprietor of the Gong Cafe?

8 A. Yes. I used to go there occasionally.

9 Q. In the period just before the war, let us say late March, early

10 April, did you go there?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. And did you see whether Muslim inhabitants of Foca frequented the

13 cafe also at the same time?

14 A. Yes, they did.

15 Q. Can you remember some of them?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Whom you saw there?

18 A. Yes. My colleague from work would drop in with me for a drink or

19 a pizza, Nusret Dzendusic. I used to see Saim, I can't remember his last

20 name, but I know he was a good friend of Spomenka, the owner of the Gong

21 pizza shop, and I also saw others. Irfan Curevac, whom I knew. And of

22 course there were both Serbs and Muslims among the guests.

23 Q. Can you tell us what type of restaurant this was?

24 A. It was a coffee shop and a pizza shop.

25 Q. In this pizza shop, did you ever hear folk music being played?

Page 5626

1 A. No. There were evergreens and rock music.

2 Q. And was the music loud or soft?

3 A. It was very soft, because I know when I talked to the waiters,

4 they said that the boss did not let them play music loudly while people

5 were eating, eating pizza.

6 Q. Did you ever hear in this cafe or pizza shop called Gong, that

7 Serbian nationalist songs were sung?

8 A. No, never.

9 Q. Did you hear this being talked about in town?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you. When did you -- when were you assigned to the JNA unit

12 in Ustikolina by the Secretariat for National Defence?

13 A. Well, five or seven days before the conflict in Foca broke out.

14 Q. Was this unit in fact the only security for the military depot?

15 A. In the barracks in Ustikolina where I was assigned as a reservist,

16 there were very few soldiers guarding those facilities, and only about 10

17 or 15 of us reservists responded to the call-up.

18 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the people who responded to the

19 call-up to go to the JNA in Ustikolina?

20 A. There were both Serbs and Muslims. I knew some of the people. I

21 didn't know others. I used to be in the reserves with Buljubasic, a young

22 man who is a Muslim, and I knew him because we had been in the reserves

23 together before in the 1980s. But in fact the response was very poor.

24 Q. Until when did you stay in Ustikolina in this JNA unit?

25 A. I stayed there until the 6th of April, and then the commander of

Page 5627

1 this unit which was guarding the depots sent us home because the response

2 had been so poor.

3 Q. And the commander of this unit, was he a Serb?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On the 8th of April, 1992, did you go to work, to your job in the

6 hospital?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Why not?

9 A. I live in a family house and my father also works in the hospital,

10 and he starts work at 6.00. I start work at 7.00. My father left earlier

11 but he came home and he said, "Don't go. Stay at home." I couldn't go to

12 the hospital because there was some checkpoints on the road. I asked him

13 who told him that, and he replied, "Rasim Kadic, Rasim," who worked in the

14 office with me.

15 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, when did you go to the hospital for

16 the first time after the conflict broke out?

17 A. Seven or eight days after the conflict broke out.

18 Q. Were you called to work by the hospital manager?

19 A. Yes, yes. The hospital manager called me to go to work. His name

20 was Sekula Stanic.

21 Q. Were you employed in the bookkeeping of the pharmacy in the

22 hospital?

23 A. Yes, and that's why they called me, because the head of the

24 pharmacy couldn't get to work. He lived in Miljevina, some 12 kilometres

25 away from Foca. They didn't have the keys, and my office was inside in

Page 5628

1 the pharmacy. That's why they called me, because they had run out of

2 medicines and they needed to intervene or to send medicines to the

3 different wards of the Foca hospital.

4 Q. And did your manager then tell you that this was your work

5 obligation, that this was your wartime assignment?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us, if you know, who appointed the managers and

8 directors of companies after the war broke out? Which organ was it?

9 A. As far as I understand these things, the executive committee of

10 the municipal assembly.

11 Q. Thank you. And while you were in the hospital, did you meet

12 Milorad Krnojelac there?

13 A. Yes, we met in the hospital compound. We hadn't seen each other

14 before that. I heard that his house had been burnt down, and I asked him

15 what happened. I tried to comfort him. I said, "Well, you'll build a new

16 house. Don't worry."

17 Q. Did he tell you then what his job was at the KP Dom?

18 A. He told me that he had been appointed by the executive committee

19 as the manager in the Drina company, and that he had to salvage what could

20 be salvaged of the property that had been destroyed there.

21 Q. Did he ask you to come to the KP Dom to see what could be done

22 about the medicines he found scattered around there?

23 A. Yes. And I replied that I knew the names of a lot of these

24 medicines, but that it really wasn't my province because I was not a

25 pharmacist and that he should ask Vito Mrgud who was the head of the

Page 5629

1 hospital pharmacy, and he had already arrived to the hospital in Srbinje

2 from Miljevina in the meantime.

3 Q. When did you leave the hospital to go to a military unit?

4 A. Sometime around the 20th or the 22nd. I was at the hospital, and

5 in early May I was called up by the military authorities and sent back to

6 the unit.

7 Q. After you joined the unit, did you visit Foca from time to time?

8 A. Yes. I did visit Foca from time to time when the military

9 authorities let us go, so then I would take a shower, change clothes, and

10 so on.

11 Q. In view of the fact that you visited from time to time, did you

12 know that -- was there food, was there bread, were there supplies in the

13 shops in Foca in sufficient quantities?

14 A. No. The shops were open very rarely, and even when they were, it

15 wasn't food. They were selling other things. And as there was no

16 electricity at that time, all the refrigerators had stopped working so

17 that food supplies were really very low.

18 Q. Do you know whether after the war broke out, most Muslims left

19 Foca together with the Muslim army which withdrew in the direction of

20 Ustikolina?

21 A. Well, yes, I talked to some colleagues over the phone, some Muslim

22 colleagues at the beginning of the war. I talked to some of them, and my

23 wife talked to Mrs. Sikira Cengic, and from these conversations I learnt

24 that a lot of ethnic Muslims had left Foca.

25 Q. And did Sikira tell that to your wife?

Page 5630

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you visited Foca, during those visits did you see whether

3 there were non-Serb residents still living there?

4 A. Well, yes. In May, in June I would run into some women, some men

5 who used to work with me in my company, for example, Nedziba Sirbubalo,

6 and I talked to him and so on.

7 Q. Do you know whether after the war broke out in Foca a curfew was

8 announced?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did it apply to all inhabitants of Foca?

11 A. I assumed that it did, except for those who were employed in

12 certain institutions who had to move around.

13 Q. Did they have to have special passes to move around during the

14 curfew?

15 A. Yes. My father would go to work from 7.00 p.m. till 7.00 in the

16 morning because he worked in shifts, and he had a special pass.

17 Q. And during your visits to Foca, did you ever hear in the media or

18 at a rally of some kind that there was a policy of expelling the Muslims,

19 that somebody said that in public?

20 A. I never heard that, and in Foca we didn't really have any media.

21 We had Radio Foca, but because there was no electricity, we couldn't

22 really listen to it, so there were very few broadcasts.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. On your visits to Foca, did you meet Milorad

24 Krnojelac sometimes?

25 A. Yes. I can't say exactly how many times, but we would run into

Page 5631

1 each other.

2 Q. And who was he with most often, if he was with someone when you

3 saw him?

4 A. Well, I would see him with his colleagues, other teachers, and

5 Zarko Vukovic. He was most often with him. He was a colleague of his, a

6 teacher, a maths teacher from my school. I knew him.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honour, the Defence

8 has no further questions. Thank you.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, cross-examination? Ms. Kuo?

10 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

12 Q. Mr. Mihajlovic, I have a few questions regarding your status as a

13 reserve -- a member of the reserve forces. You said that you were called

14 up before the conflict in Foca broke out. Do you know why there was a

15 call-up before any armed conflict began?

16 A. Everybody had an assignment in the peace-time composition, and

17 every year these reserve forces were checked and people were called up to

18 report to their units.

19 Q. And so just so I'm clear on this, there are professional members

20 of the military who are -- whose job it is basically to participate in the

21 military during peace-time as well as wartime, right? That's one category

22 of people?

23 A. Well, these people are not professionals, they were not paid.

24 Simply under the law, they had to do their military service.

25 Q. Listen to my question carefully. In the military, there are

Page 5632

1 people who are paid to be soldiers, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then there are also civilians who are in wartime drafted to

4 participate in the military, right? Only in wartime?

5 A. No. From 1980, when I completed my military service, I was called

6 up ten times to report to this reserve unit.

7 Q. Is everybody -- are all -- or were all the men in the former

8 Yugoslavia members of a reserve force?

9 A. Ninety per cent.

10 Q. And that meant that if you did your compulsory military service,

11 that you were automatically a member of the reserve force?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What rank did you have in the reserves?

14 A. A sergeant.

15 Q. And had you wanted -- if you wanted to become a captain, what

16 would you have to do further?

17 A. I had no intention -- I had my job. I would have to spend 10 or

18 15 days a year in the military only.

19 Q. Again, please listen to my question. If you wanted to be -- if

20 somebody who was a sergeant wanted to become captain, what would he have

21 to do to achieve that rank?

22 A. Let me tell you, there were schools for reserve officers, so if

23 you were in the regular army doing your service, some people were trained

24 to be ordinary soldiers and this was decided by the military department.

25 It sent people to the army and it sent some people to be regular soldiers,

Page 5633

1 and others to school according to the number of men they needed.

2 Usually -- usually people with university education were sent to become

3 reserve officers, to go to school for that.

4 Q. So to become a captain, a person would have to go to more military

5 training than you did, right?

6 A. No. That was when we were doing our military service. If you did

7 your military service for a year and it depends on the time, whether it

8 was in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, as part of that, as part of that

9 compulsory military service, if you during that time went to school, you

10 would then be given a rank in the reserves.

11 Q. Would a person automatically become a captain, if he were chosen

12 to go to officer school?

13 A. No, no. He would become a second lieutenant, and then from time

14 to time, when the reserves went to do exercises, after every exercise,

15 they would be promoted to a higher rank, one degree up.

16 Q. Were those promotions automatic? As long as you went to the

17 exercise, you would achieve the next rank or did you have to do something

18 extra to become promoted?

19 A. No, you didn't have to do anything extra. Everybody was

20 promoted.

21 Q. Now, the call-up that you described, days before the conflict in

22 Foca started, was it a general call-up for everybody in the reserves? Or

23 was it for specific unit?

24 A. Only for the unit which was guarding the warehouses in

25 Ustikolina. There were perhaps 50 or 60 men in that unit. About other

Page 5634

1 units, I don't know. I have no information as to whether they were

2 mobilised or not.

3 Q. You said that the response to the call-up was poor. Was the

4 call-up voluntary or was it compulsory?

5 A. It was compulsory, and had there not been a war, the people would

6 probably have suffered consequences under the law.

7 Q. If you were -- you were assigned to the unit at Ustikolina, so

8 that means that that's the unit you normally went to as a reserve officer,

9 right?

10 A. Yes, it was my unit. Everybody was assigned a place to report,

11 and that's where I went to report. Since 1980, I was there seven or eight

12 times, and then twice I went to Hadzici in Sarajevo.

13 MS. KUO: Your Honours, it's 4.00.

14 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume again at 9.30 in the morning.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

16 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday the 8th day

17 of May, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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