Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5968

1 Monday, 14 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

7 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Now, I understand, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you want to

9 raise some matter about a few documents.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Your Honour, as we had said, while Mr. Dundjer testified, we

12 mentioned that we sent documents to the Government of Bosnia-Herzegovina

13 for checking the authenticity, and we actually received an answer. The

14 first document is ID D3, the list of fighters.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's not in evidence yet anyway.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, but we said we should delay the answer

17 until we know more about this document. And actually, the answer from the

18 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina is that this list is authentic. It was

19 made after the Foca Brigade was formed in May or June 1992. So we

20 wouldn't have any objections any more.

21 JUDGE HUNT: But do you know by whom it was made?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. They only gave the information that it

23 is authentic and it was made by the Foca Brigade who was then formed.

24 That is all they could provide.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Then you no longer have any objection to it being

Page 5969

1 tendered?


3 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that will be Exhibit D3. Yes.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the Defence counsel also did not tender

5 ID D5, which is a similar sort of list, a list of persons and positions,

6 and the answer from the Bosnian authority is that this document is also

7 authentic. It was -- the formations were listed on the 25th of May, 1992,

8 and they also mentioned that this document was seized by the army of

9 Republika Srpska. It's authentic and it was made in the headquarters of

10 the Bosnian Muslim army.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, Mr. Bakrac, do you now tender

12 ID D5?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Since there was an

14 objection in terms of who had compiled this document, we would now like to

15 tender D5 into evidence.

16 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit D5. Yes.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The next document is ID D8, the list of TO

18 staffs throughout Bosnia. The authorities informed us that they believe

19 that it is not authentic. Of course, they mentioned -- they also pointed

20 out that there's no date, no signature, and nothing on the document, but

21 in addition, they spoke with General Rasim Delic, who is, according to the

22 document, the one who sent it, and Mr. Delic informed them that he does

23 not recall any such document that he ever sent. And in addition, he said

24 that in this list of TO staffs, there are the TO staffs in Banja Luka,

25 Prijedor, Kljuc, Sanski Most, Derventa, Modrica, Bosanski Brod, and Doboj

Page 5970

1 mentioned, and he said that as these TO staffs were not loyal to the

2 Bosnian government, they would never have reached such a document.

3 So that is the reason why they think it's not authentic.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I see.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Therefore, the objection of the Prosecution

6 is upheld.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Can we just find it in the transcript as to

8 where it was tendered? It would help to see what the provenance put

9 forward was. Are you able to assist us with the page number?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour. The only thing - it's

11 obvious, and that is also what we raised - there is no signature on it, no

12 stamp.

13 JUDGE HUNT: I've got all that noted. Here we started at 5242.

14 It's described in the document as a list of Territorial Defence staffs

15 with which direct contact was established. I'm not sure what Mr. Dundjer

16 meant by that.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And there is no date on it and no

18 signature, nothing that authorises the document.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

20 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. He then says at 5244, "I assume

21 that the term used here, 'direct contact,' in fact means with the

22 Territorial Defence staffs of the municipalities. A line of command was

23 established from a centre of some kind." Yes. It came from one of these

24 unnamed officers.

25 Yes, Mr. Bakrac. What do you want to say about it?

Page 5971

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to help, in view

2 of these two documents and other documents. We believe that this document

3 does not have such great probative value, so we don't really want to make

4 a problem over this. Therefore, we withdraw our proposal to have it

5 entered into evidence. It has an ID number, but the Defence does not wish

6 to tender it.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. Then it's withdrawn from evidence. When

8 you say it has an IDD number, if it's not in evidence, we're not going to

9 pay any regard to it. I've been reminded that we already had a D3, so

10 that the one that I suggested should be Exhibit D3, should be Exhibit

11 D4/2. Sorry about that.

12 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And the last document is actually

14 already tendered into evidence, and that is the document P21 [sic].

15 However, we got information from the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities what

16 the abbreviations in that document actually mean.

17 JUDGE HUNT: What the -- I'm sorry.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: There are a lot of abbreviations in this

19 document.

20 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that I understand the word you're

21 using.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Abbreviations.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, abbreviations. I'm sorry. Thank you.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And there is an abbreviation PLNBH, and

25 it means Patriotic League of the People of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And there

Page 5972

1 is also an office mentioned, RVS. It means Regional Military

2 Headquarters. And another office is mentioned, SRVS. It means

3 Subregional Military Headquarters.

4 JUDGE HUNT: By the way, you I think said P21. You meant D21.

5 You were certainly recorded as having said P21.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I said --

7 JUDGE HUNT: But we're all talking about D.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. We are talking -- oh, sorry. Yes, D.


10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry. Yes. That's the information that we

11 got.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Is that just to fill us in or are you --

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's just to fill you in. And the Bosnian

14 authorities could not say whether it is authentic or not. They have no

15 idea. It could be, could be not.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then you have no basis for objecting to it.

17 Well, thank you for that information. Are those the lot? Is that the

18 lot?


20 JUDGE HUNT: Good. Thank you.

21 Yes, Mr. Bakrac. Your next witness, please.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Vasic will be

23 questioning the next witness, and that witness is Lazar Divljan.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, before

Page 5973

1 the witness comes in, Mr. Vasic questioned Vitomir Drakul and he tendered

2 a document into evidence that had not been translated. In the meantime,

3 we received a translation, so we would now like to tender it properly.

4 Its number is ID D149.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That was reserved, I see.

6 Have you any objection to it now as a translation,

7 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Those will be Exhibits D149 and 149A.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE HUNT: Will you please make the solemn declaration in the

12 document which is being shown to you, sir.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Will you sit down, please, sir.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning,

20 Your Honours.

21 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

22 Q. Good morning, sir.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. Would you please be so kind to give us your name and surname.

25 A. My name is Lazar Divljan.

Page 5974

1 Q. Sir, first of all, I would like to ask you something. Since you

2 and I speak the same language, after I put a question to you, could you

3 please pause briefly so that the interpreters will have time to interpret

4 my question, so that the Honourable Trial Chamber and my colleagues could

5 follow what we are saying.

6 Sir, can you please give us your date of birth?

7 A. The 10th of October, 1949.

8 Q. Where were you born?

9 A. Rudo Polje, municipality of Gacko.

10 Q. Where did you complete elementary and secondary school?

11 A. I completed elementary and secondary school in Gacko.

12 Q. After that did you attend a post-secondary school?

13 A. Yes. The teachers' college in Mostar.

14 Q. What are you by profession?

15 A. A teacher of mathematics and physics.

16 Q. Can you tell us when you got a job and where?

17 A. I worked in Ilovaca, in the municipality of Gorazde, in 1972,

18 actually. I worked there until 1982.

19 Q. And where did you work after 1982?

20 A. I worked at the elementary school at the KP Dom in Foca.

21 Q. When did you work in this school?

22 A. Until the war operations broke out. Until April 1992.

23 Q. Can you tell us what the task of the school attached to the KP Dom

24 in Foca was?

25 A. Its task was to make illiterate people literate. There were quite

Page 5975

1 a few prisoners who were not literate, so they were supposed to be taught

2 how to read and write and then perhaps continue their education or

3 vocational training. People could work as carpenters and in other

4 crafts. So they could receive further training at the KP Dom.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell me whether you're married?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you have any children?

8 A. I have two children.

9 Q. You said to me that you worked in this school that was attached to

10 the KP Dom until 1992, until the war conflict broke out.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Until which date did you go to work at the KP Dom?

13 A. I think it was the 6th or the 7th. I don't know exactly. At any

14 rate, a day or two before the outbreak of war operations. I think it was

15 the 7th or 6th. That was the last day I was at work.

16 Q. Are you referring to April 1992?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell me why you did not go to work on this 7th of April,

19 1992?

20 A. I didn't go to work or, actually, I'd set out to go to work;

21 however, in Donje Polje, in the street that leads to the KP Dom, next to

22 the Cafe Bor there were roadblocks that were placed by Muslims. Actually,

23 there was a truck and some smaller cars. And you could pass to the KP Dom

24 and the hospital. Serbs could pass only if accompanied by a Muslim.

25 I did not like that kind of thing. I didn't like going to work

Page 5976













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Page 5977

1 that way. I went back, and I didn't go to work after that.

2 Q. In which part of Foca did you live then?

3 A. I lived in Donje Polje. However, for safety reasons, because of

4 my children, et cetera, two days previously I moved to Aladza, to my

5 brother-in-law's place, and it is from there that I went to work on the

6 6th or the 7th. I'm not sure about these dates. It was one of these two

7 dates.

8 Q. You said that on the 7th you returned -- since you could not pass,

9 that you returned to Aladza. What did you do after that?

10 A. On that day I didn't do anything, but on the next day I got my

11 children and packed up our things and went to Belgrade, Yugoslavia.

12 Q. Did you go with your entire family?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When did you return to Foca from Belgrade?

15 A. I returned on the 18th or the 19th. I know it was a Friday

16 evening. I think it was the 18th that I returned from Belgrade. The 18th

17 of April.

18 Q. After you returned, did you report to the KP Dom?

19 A. Yes. I reported immediately on Monday. I think it was the 20th.

20 I reported immediately.

21 Q. Where were you assigned? What kind of work obligation were you

22 assigned after returning from Belgrade?

23 A. Warehouse worker in the Drina Economic Unit.

24 Q. Until when did you work as a warehouse worker in the Drina

25 Economic Unit?

Page 5978

1 A. Until the 1st of August, 1992.

2 Q. Which warehouses were you in charge of as warehouse worker?

3 A. I was in charge of the warehouse for convicts, equipment, and

4 food. So these were two warehouses, actually.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

6 would like to show two photographs to the usher [sic]. They are 7476 and

7 7512. These are Prosecution exhibits.

8 Q. This warehouse. Sir, is there a warehouse in this photograph, the

9 one where you worked as a warehouse worker upon your returning to Foca?

10 A. Yes. This is the warehouse for convicts, equipment, and food.

11 Q. Can you point out where this warehouse is?

12 A. Here. Here. Right over here.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the witness is

14 indicating an entrance on the ground floor. It's on the photograph, and

15 above it says magacin osudjenicke ishrane, and it is underneath Room

16 number 11.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

18 Can the usher please show us the other photograph, please.

19 A. [Indicates].

20 Q. Is that the warehouse that you were also entrusted with?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was in this warehouse?

23 A. When I was -- when I got there, there were some potatoes. At any

24 rate, before the war, that is where potatoes, sauerkraut, onions, and

25 other supplies were stored for the winter.

Page 5979

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The witness indicated the entrance on

2 the ground floor of the building which is marked as number 2 in this

3 photograph.

4 Thank you, sir. We won't be needing the photograph any longer.

5 Q. You said that these warehouses were within the Drina Economic

6 Unit; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us what the Drina Economic Unit consisted of, which

9 elements?

10 A. The Economic Unit Drina consisted of several subunits; that is,

11 the furniture factory, the metal plant, the construction plant, the farm,

12 catering, and trade.

13 Q. Before the war conflict broke out, who headed the Drina Economic

14 Unit?

15 A. The Drina Economic Unit was headed by the director of the economic

16 unit.

17 Q. And these subunits that comprised the Drina Economic Unit?

18 A. There were the heads of these subunits. That's what they were

19 called: the head of the metal plant, the head of the farm, the head of

20 catering, et cetera. At least, that's what we workers called them. Now,

21 what they were ...

22 Q. When you came and became the warehouse worker in those two

23 warehouses within the Drina Economic Unit, the ones you indicated to us,

24 who was then director of the Drina Economic Unit?

25 A. The director of the Drina Economic Unit was Milorad Krnojelac. He

Page 5980

1 performed these duties.

2 Q. Can you tell us -- do you know who appointed Mr. Krnojelac to this

3 post?

4 A. I personally am not aware of that, but I heard that he had been

5 appointed by the Executive Committee of the Serb Municipality of Foca, as

6 it was called in those days.

7 Q. Do you know what you found in the warehouses when you were

8 appointed warehouse worker?

9 A. Well, in the warehouse for convicts' food there were some

10 supplies, some food supplies. As for convicts' equipment, there were some

11 blankets, some bed linen, some footwear, and some convicts' clothes,

12 working clothes for convicts, whereas in the other warehouses I mentioned

13 there were only some potatoes, a bit of potatoes.

14 Q. When you arrived, were the warehouses in proper order?

15 A. No. Everything was upside down, scattered about.

16 Q. You mentioned the goods which you found when you got the job.

17 Could you tell us, first of all, were these goods distributed to the

18 people who were detained, I mean the blankets and the clothes?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How was it distributed?

21 A. The man in charge of the compound, the guard in charge of the

22 compound, asked me to give him so many blankets, bed linen, sheets, for

23 the dormitories, and I gave them to him.

24 Q. And what about food? How was it distributed?

25 A. The food that I found in the warehouse when I came there was

Page 5981

1 distributed when the cook would tell me each morning that he was supposed

2 to cook such-and-such meals and he needed such-and-such quantities of

3 specific food, and if I had it in stock, I would give it to him. If I

4 didn't have what he was asking for, then I would give him something else

5 instead.

6 Q. Do you know how the warehouse was replenished before the outbreak

7 of hostilities, that is, before the war?

8 A. Could you clarify this question a little for me, because I don't

9 know what you mean exactly.

10 Q. You were talking about the operation of the Drina Economic Unit.

11 I'm asking you whether you know how goods were supplied to this warehouse

12 before the outbreak of the war, if you know that.

13 A. I don't know again exactly what you mean, but if I understood your

14 question, I'll try to answer it. I know that the warehouses of this Drina

15 Economic Unit were replenished by the Drina Economic Unit which bought the

16 goods. It made purchases to replenish this warehouse. I know this

17 because I was a member of the commission which was in charge of making

18 inventories at the end of the year, and I know whose property these

19 warehouses were.

20 Q. And at the time when you worked at the warehouse, who brought

21 goods to the warehouse, and how?

22 A. When I was warehouse worker, from the 20th of April to the 1st of

23 August, it was myself and Milorad Krnojelac who brought goods to the

24 warehouse most of the time. When he would travel outside to Serbia and

25 Montenegro, I didn't accompany him. He travelled with drivers, without

Page 5982

1 drivers, and he would bring back the goods and I would place them in the

2 warehouse.

3 Q. Did any goods come from other sources apart from those you

4 mentioned, apart from the quantities procured by yourself and Milorad

5 Krnojelac?

6 A. Yes, but very little. I know that the army would bring something

7 a couple of times. Two or three times army trucks came carrying goods,

8 with cabbage, I believe. I don't know where this cabbage had come from.

9 But it was mainly myself and Mico who handled the procurement, and I think

10 it was only on two occasions in that entire period that army trucks

11 brought any goods.

12 Q. Could you tell me why the army brought anything to the warehouses

13 of the economic unit?

14 A. The army was supposed to be our main supplier. That was how it

15 should have been. However, they didn't have much themselves. And it

16 should have been that way because most of the detainees were prisoners of

17 war.

18 Q. Was there a military prison within the KP Dom?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know who is in charge of this military prison?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Will you tell us the name of that man?

23 A. Savo Todovic was in charge.

24 Q. How do you know that the military prison within the KP Dom was

25 under Savo Todovic?

Page 5983













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Page 5984

1 A. From the relationships that prevailed within the KP Dom themselves

2 and also from conversations that took place within the KP Dom. That's how

3 I found out, although I wasn't really interested in that or in the way

4 that he came to be there. I don't know how exactly, but I know that he

5 was in charge of military prisoners, both Muslims and the Serbs that were

6 there at the time.

7 Q. How do you know Savo Todovic?

8 A. I have known him from 1972. I'm sorry, from 1982. We used to

9 live in the same apartment building, in the same entranceway, and our

10 wives are related, rather closely related, and we were also family

11 friends.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. You told us that you went away from the KP Dom,

13 together with Mr. Krnojelac, to bring back goods. Where did you go?

14 A. We went to Belgrade and we went to Uzice as well.

15 Q. And how about Foca municipality?

16 A. In the Foca municipality, we went to Perucica, Maglic, and other

17 companies which still had some supplies, but it was mainly those two,

18 Maglic and Perucica.

19 Q. Do you know, by any chance, whether Milorad Krnojelac had been to

20 other places except those you mentioned?

21 A. Yes. He travelled to Niksic, Podgorica. He travelled to Cacak

22 several times. I have forgotten now, but at the time I was aware of every

23 journey he made. I even kept a record of things that needed to be

24 bought. So I was well acquainted with this.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, you are not pausing sufficiently at the end of

Page 5985

1 the questions before you start your answer and the interpretation of the

2 question is still running at the time you start your answer. So would you

3 pause just a little longer than you have been.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. When you travelled for purposes of procurement, did you always

6 manage to get the goods that you wanted?

7 A. No. It was only very rarely that we could procure all that we

8 were looking for, because there were no goods even in warehouses and the

9 situation with supply even in town was very bad.

10 Q. Did the Drina Economic Unit get any compensation for the goods

11 that it produced?

12 A. Mainly visits were made to our old partners, Jugodrvo from

13 Belgrade, Jugoimpex from Titograd, carrying furniture to collect old debts

14 because inflation was running high and our money was eaten up, and we

15 tried to get food in exchange, and other goods that were needed by the

16 KP Dom, that were needed for the normal operation and normal life in the

17 KP Dom.

18 Q. You told us that you issued the cook with the food supplies that

19 you had. What kind of food was it, if you remember?

20 A. I remember. I even have here a notebook, which I found by

21 accident 15 days ago, in which I made notes at the time of all the things

22 that I issued. I issued mainly what was there. For instance, for

23 breakfast it was usually eggs or jam or meat paste, sugar for tea, powder

24 milk for white coffee, and there were even some cans, some tinned food in

25 the warehouse, and their date of consumption had already expired, but we

Page 5986

1 still used them. There was also some cabbage, potatoes for lunch, beans,

2 rice. That was it. And I would try to supply him with the items that he

3 needed to make a particular meal.

4 Q. Did I understand you correctly, saying that you found a notebook

5 in which you had made notes when you were a warehouse worker in 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you have this notebook with you?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would like this

10 notebook marked ID D150.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Do you mean just for the purposes of identification

12 or are you tendering it in evidence?

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since the witness is

14 saying this is an authentic notebook from 1992, the Defence will ask him

15 to read out some information from that notebook, and once we get

16 translation, the Defence will tender this document into evidence.

17 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Well, at this stage it will be marked

18 ID D150.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Sir, would you please tell us when you started to keep these notes

21 in this notebook?

22 A. I started from the first day, the 21st of April, 1992.

23 Q. Until when?

24 A. Let me see. I kept it until the supplies in the warehouse ran

25 out, and later all the goods that arrived did not go to the warehouse but

Page 5987

1 were transported straight to the canteen, so my last entry is of the 8th

2 of July, 1992.

3 Q. Could you please tell me why these goods, as you say, did not go

4 to the warehouse but straight to the canteen?

5 A. They didn't because the quantities were very small. They were

6 barely sufficient to meet the daily needs of the canteen.

7 Q. Does it mean that there were no supplies?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you read to us from that notebook what you issued to the

10 cook on that 21st of April, 1992?

11 A. On the 21st of April, 1992, it says here in the notebook that I

12 only issued 600 soaps, 100 rolls of toilet paper, and 21 pieces of paper

13 tissue, and it says nothing about food here, because it must have been

14 already distributed before I started on this job.

15 Q. Could you read to us what you issued, let's say, on the 25th of

16 April, 1992?

17 A. Thirty boxes of lima beans, one hundred packs of pepper, three

18 bags of vegetable, salt, one pint of kajmak - that's about fifteen to

19 twenty kilos - and four hundred loaves of bread, two cans of five kilos

20 of casserole.

21 Q. Was this food all needed for meals made during one day?

22 A. Looking at the next day, for instance, at lunch and dinner, yes,

23 it was sufficient for those two meals, and I added one can of kajmak for

24 next day's breakfast.

25 Q. Could you tell us what the usual practice was? Would you issue

Page 5988

1 food for meals that were to be cooked on one day or did you issue supplies

2 for several days at a time?

3 A. I should have issued food every day; however, since I was away

4 almost daily, travelling to Perucica and Maglic companies, then I issued

5 usually supplies for two days at a time, if I knew that I would be absent

6 the next day.

7 Q. Could you read out to us, for instance, what you issued on the

8 15th of May, 1992?

9 A. On the 15th of May, 2 cans of pickled peppers, 12 meat pastes or

10 pate, 15 kilos of Fidelinka, 16 cans of casserole, 16 packs of carrots, 12

11 cans -- 12 five kilos of lima beans, 15 cans of goulash, a sack of

12 potatoes, and some cucumbers.

13 Q. Could you please read out what you issued towards the end, for

14 instance, towards the end of your notebook you said you issued things

15 until the 15th -- until the 8th of July, what you issued towards the end

16 of that, the 6th of July?

17 A. On the 6th of July, 10 kilos of casserole, 5 cans of goulash, 10

18 kilos of cucumbers, and 30 pates.

19 Q. Did you also issue meat paste in addition to the liver paste? I

20 don't mean on the 6th of July; I mean in general.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How was it packaged, this meat paste? What was the size of the

23 packages?

24 A. It was 150-, 200-, 250-gramme packages, Spam-like packages, and

25 the meat paste was packaged in cellophane, in 4-kilo packages. I issued

Page 5989

1 some meat paste, and there were some cans of sardines in the warehouse and

2 I issued that too, usually for breakfast. There was some cheese in large

3 cans or barrels. I issued that for breakfast as well, but that was a

4 certain small quantity which had already been in the warehouse when I came

5 there, and after it was used up, it was impossible to get any more.

6 Q. Did you issue all that was found, that was already in the

7 warehouse, when you came to the canteen?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you tell me who ate the food that was prepared with the

10 supplies you provided from the warehouse?

11 A. The workers, the staff who then worked at the KP Dom, the guards,

12 convicts, and detainees.

13 Q. How many meals were prepared per day in the kitchen? Do you know?

14 A. No, I don't know how many meals were prepared, because the cook

15 took care of that. He knew how many people there were. Sometimes in the

16 morning, actually, he would mention it to me, how many people there were

17 and how many meals were required, but he's the one who took care of that,

18 so I'm not really aware of it.

19 Q. Did you eat at this kitchen?

20 A. Yes. Whenever I was at the KP Dom, I always had lunch at the

21 kitchen.

22 Q. You mentioned several categories of persons who ate there. Was

23 food prepared for them specially?

24 A. No. All the food was prepared in one caldron, which was outside.

25 Firewood was used for heating it, because there was no other way of

Page 5990













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Page 5991

1 preparing food then.

2 Q. You said that detainees ate there. What do you mean by

3 "detainees"? Who were these persons who were at the KP Dom then?

4 A. Well, let me tell you. I got used to this in pre-war and post-war

5 practice. Detained persons are persons who had not been convicted yet,

6 who are in detention while an investigation is still carried on. That was

7 the practice that prevailed at least there. The person who was convicted

8 was a convict, whereas a person who had not had judgement passed was still

9 called a detainee.

10 Q. In this case, were the detainees Muslims?

11 A. If I mentioned detainees here, for me these persons were both

12 Muslims and Serbs that the military, for various reasons, detained there.

13 For me there were nine or eight convicts only. These were persons who

14 were convicted before the war conflict broke out, and everybody else were

15 detainees. Perhaps I'm making a terminology mistake here, but that's the

16 sense in which I was using the word.

17 Q. You mentioned persons who you found there serving their sentences

18 that were passed before the war. Do you know who was in charge of these

19 persons who were at the KP Dom?

20 A. For these persons, these nine, Aco Zecevic was in charge of them.

21 I often took these persons to do various chores for me. For example, to

22 bring bread from the bakery, then also to load wood from town, and for

23 various chores I would take some of these convicts. When they were

24 supposed to be taken out, permits were assigned for me by Aco Zecevic.

25 Q. Which post was held by Aco Zecevic? Do you know?

Page 5992

1 A. Before the war Aco Zecevic was a correction officer, and at that

2 point when we arrived in the KP Dom, somebody arrived on the 18th,

3 somebody on the 20th, whatever, the people who -- out of all the people

4 who worked as correction officers, Aco Zecevic was the only one who was

5 present there.

6 In terms of the structure of the KP Dom before the

7 war -- how should I put this? When convicts were supposed to be used for

8 work or whether they would be allowed leave or whatever, it was the head

9 of the correction officers' service who was in charge of this and to sign

10 such papers. Now, since he was the only person left from that

11 service - How should I put this? - that was his task then or whatever. At

12 any rate, we addressed him and he did it.

13 Q. These persons who were serving their sentences from before the war

14 conflict started, were they under the administration of the KP Dom?

15 A. Well, I said already that they were exclusively under the

16 administration of the KP Dom. As for all their activities, all the

17 facilities provided for them, all their living and working conditions, it

18 was the head of the correction officers' service that decided on that.

19 Whatever they did, either within the compound of the KP Dom or outside, a

20 permit was required for all of that, and as I said, this was signed by the

21 head of the correction officers' service. And whatever they did for the

22 economic unit, the economic unit paid for this in some way to the KP Dom,

23 because from every point of view, financially and in terms of bookkeeping,

24 these were two separate units, that is to say, the economic unit and the

25 KP Dom. We called them the economy and the budget.

Page 5993

1 Q. Are you talking about the pre-war days?

2 A. Yes, the pre-war days. And also after it was over, actually,

3 after Dayton.

4 Q. What about the warden of the KP Dom? What were his -- what was

5 his authority in terms of these persons?

6 A. Well, the warden of the KP Dom --

7 Q. I mean did he not have any direct contact, except for personal

8 contact, or did he have any direct --

9 A. Well, at least judging by what we workers could notice, he did not

10 have any direct contact or influence over the work and life of convicts.

11 This exclusively took place within the correction officers' service.

12 Q. Weren't these persons under the supervision of the Ministry of

13 Justice before the war and during the war?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is the warden of the KP Dom a person appointed by the Ministry of

16 Justice?

17 A. Yes, that's right. However, there are -- how should I put this?

18 There was this correction officers' service. I mean I'm telling you about

19 what it was like in practice. I don't know, but in practice this was the

20 way it was. Everything that had to do with convicts, the exclusive

21 authority and rights were enjoyed by the correction officers and the head

22 of their service. At least in our case, the wardens who were there during

23 that time did not interfere in the work of -- in the work and decision

24 making of the persons employed in the correction officers' service.

25 Q. You are talking about the correction officers' service, that is to

Page 5994

1 say, correction officers who worked with convicts in order to have them

2 re-educated. In the pre-war hierarchy, was this service subordinate to

3 the warden of the KP Dom?

4 A. Yes, it was subordinate to the warden of the KP Dom, but I've been

5 saying that in the pre-war days it was subordinated to the warden of the

6 KP Dom, but all decisions were passed within the service for re-education,

7 the correction officers' service.

8 Q. Reports about persons serving their time were sent by who to the

9 Ministry of Justice in those days?

10 A. I don't know about that. Although, I know, because after the war

11 I worked as a recordkeeper, all documents that are sent for any

12 convict - I'm talking about the way this is in practice - it was the head

13 of the correction officers' service who would look at all of this and give

14 permission, and then the warden would sign this and place a stamp on it

15 because he was the only person in possession of the stamp of the KP Dom.

16 As for other papers, I don't know.

17 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell us, when the cook would come to you

18 with requests for food and when you would not have everything that he was

19 asking for, what would you say to him then?

20 A. I would say to him that if I did not have it, I would go on that

21 day or the next day or whenever we had planned this to go and look for

22 it.

23 Q. Would you say to him that you would look for this on your own?

24 A. No. No. As for the procurement of food, I went only with Milorad

25 Krnojelac. He knew that. He always knew that I went with Milorad; no

Page 5995

1 other way.

2 Q. Who knew that?

3 A. The cook. The cook. But most people knew that, those who were

4 involved in terms of their work with what we did. But the cook knew for

5 sure.

6 Q. What kind of vehicles did you use for going to procure food?

7 A. We only took the Poly to town. If you are referring to trips to

8 Serbian Montenegro, we usually took the Furgon.

9 Q. Let us go back to the time when you came back and when you became

10 warehouse worker. Did you observe the state in which the KP Dom was at

11 that time?

12 A. The KP Dom was in very bad shape. There were hardly any

13 windowpanes. It was dilapidated. The furniture was scattered all about.

14 It was obvious that the KP Dom was also war ravaged. Perhaps I can put it

15 that way, in a word.

16 Q. What was the situation like in terms of electricity in the

17 KP Dom?

18 A. At first there was no electricity at all. I can't remember how

19 long this went on. Later on there was some electricity, but there were

20 major reductions. There were long-term blackouts.

21 Q. At the time when there were reductions, did you have any other

22 source of energy? At the KP Dom, that is.

23 A. I know that I had a miner's lamp, and I also saw that the duty

24 officer had one, because the warehouse is in the basement and there is no

25 daylight in there, so I always had to have some kind of lighting, so I

Page 5996

1 used that lamp.

2 Q. Did the KP Dom get a generator of its own later on?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. Do you know whether the heating room functioned at the KP Dom when

5 you were there?

6 A. No. No, it did not. It did not function at that time.

7 Q. Why did it not function? Do you know?

8 A. Well, probably because it had been damaged too, like the other

9 facilities. That was probably the reason.

10 Q. You read out to us from your notebook that you issued bread. Who

11 went to the town bakery to get bread?

12 A. I was the only person to go and get bread from the town bakery,

13 together with convicts, two or three men perhaps. It depends on the

14 vehicle we used to bring in bread.

15 Q. When you say "convicts," who are you referring to?

16 A. I'm referring to convicts who were -- who had been serving their

17 time even before the war broke out.

18 Q. Did you get as much bread as you had required at the town bakery?

19 A. No. We never got as much as we asked for. We actually got the

20 leftovers that remained after all the others. Sometimes we would wait for

21 two or three hours until the military and the citizenry got their bread,

22 and it was only then that our turn came.

23 Q. Does that mean that there was a shortage of bread at the KP Dom?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. As warehouse worker, did you go to the farm of the economic unit

Page 5997













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Page 5998

1 too?

2 A. I did, a few times, although I did not have any direct dealings

3 with them, because they had their own cook there, their own warehouse. So

4 when they obtained goods, or rather cattle feed -- well, I'm telling you

5 about the situation as it was before the war and after the war. If they

6 did not have enough, then they took extra supplies from the central

7 warehouse that we've been talking about.

8 Q. Did any goods arrive at the KP Dom from the farm?

9 A. Yes. Eggs, some milk, and some meat.

10 Q. How were these goods delivered to the KP Dom?

11 A. I delivered it in the Poly vehicle.

12 Q. You say "the Poly" is that a passenger vehicle? Is that the

13 Zastava Poly?

14 A. Yes, yes, the Zastava Poly.

15 Q. What colour was this vehicle?

16 A. It was a red Zastava with white -- I mean, the trunk was white.

17 Q. What was this vehicle used for?

18 A. This vehicle was used exclusively for the delivery of food.

19 Q. Is this food that you all ate at the KP Dom?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You said that meat was delivered in this vehicle. Was anything

22 else delivered, for example, fish?

23 A. Yes. Fish was also delivered from the Jelic fisheries, when it

24 was transferred to the fish pond at Bukovica, and also the fish that was

25 caught at the river when somebody had done something there.

Page 5999

1 Q. Can you tell us how this meat was transported, and the fish, in

2 the Zastava Poly that you just mentioned?

3 A. Well, the meat would just be wrapped in a white table cloth and

4 thrown in the back. As for fish, there were cans, containers in which

5 fish was transferred from Jelic to Bukovica.

6 Q. After delivering meat, would there be bloodstains in the part of

7 the car where the meat was kept?

8 A. Yes, because at that time we did not have any electricity, and

9 after the animals were slaughtered, the meat was immediately loaded into

10 the vehicle and transported, so there were stains.

11 Q. Where were the keys of this vehicle?

12 A. The keys of the Poly were at the duty officer's, because the Poly

13 was not issued to me or to anyone else specifically. The duty officer had

14 the keys of all vehicles.

15 Q. How often did you drive this vehicle?

16 A. Well, there were days when I would practically spend my entire

17 working hours in that vehicle, and there were other days when I would

18 finish fast - I'd come to the warehouse, I'd go to get bread, I'd come

19 back - so I can't say very specifically for how long I used this vehicle.

20 Q. You said that you would finish fast in the morning. Is that to

21 say that you would usually deliver these goods in the morning?

22 A. In the morning we went to get these goods. This was around 8.00

23 or 9.00 perhaps, and it all depends on when we would finish at the

24 warehouse, whether there would be lots of people, and everybody had

25 priority over us. So we knew when we would go, but we didn't know when we

Page 6000

1 would come back.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that it is

3 11.00 now, so it would be a good point to break off. Thank you.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. We'll adjourn shortly.

5 When we resume, Mr. Bakrac, we'd like to hear what good news you

6 have for us about the witnesses. We'll return at 11.30.

7 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

9 JUDGE HUNT: What is your good news, Mr. Bakrac?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you seem to be right;

11 the news is really good. I have just contacted the Victims and Witnesses

12 Unit, and it seems that our three witnesses will have their visas in the

13 afternoon. They have plane tickets booked for them tomorrow, and I hope

14 our colleagues will put these witnesses on the plane tomorrow morning, but

15 we will have confirmation this afternoon that their visas are all right

16 and that they are on their way.

17 JUDGE HUNT: That's very good news indeed. If they arrive

18 probably tomorrow afternoon, we'll adjourn after your next witness is

19 finished, so you've got the afternoon to speak to them. But if there are

20 three of them, you should be able to deal with that pretty well and have

21 their evidence in by the end of the week. But thank you very much for

22 pursuing that, and I'm very grateful to the Victims and Witnesses Section

23 who have obviously had to stand on their heads to do it for you.

24 Yes, Mr. Vasic. Oh, I'm sorry.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I only wanted to

Page 6001

1 add that I wanted to ask this of you anyway, but I hope we will fill the

2 next day, although we have very little time left. But since the witnesses

3 will be travelling from Foca to Belgrade and at Belgrade they will need

4 some time to rest, but I hope they will be ready to testify.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Is it really so difficult to travel from Foca to

6 Belgrade, Mr. Bakrac, that they need a rest before they catch a plane?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, from Foca to Belgrade

8 it's about seven hours on a very bad road.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Very well then.

10 Yes, Mr. Vasic. You continue with this witness.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Mr. Divljan, before the break we were talking about the fact that

13 meat was transported as well as fish in the Zastava Poly vehicle. Could

14 you tell us -- when fish was transported, it was in some sort of

15 containers. Did they have holes in them?

16 A. Yes. There were openings in those containers.

17 Q. Was it live fish?

18 A. Yes. There was also live fish which was transported from Bjeljac

19 fisheries to the fishpond at Bukovica, and there was also other fish

20 transported for feeding people. It was the fish that was caught after the

21 accident at Jelac.

22 Q. How was this transported, this other fish which wasn't live?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Thank you. You said that you drove this Zastava Poly vehicle.

25 Did it have a punctured exhaust pipe?

Page 6002

1 A. As far as I remember, it didn't. I would have remembered, I

2 suppose. I don't see why we would have kept a vehicle like that when we

3 had our own workshop and we had the resources and the workers to deal with

4 it, who had no other work at the time. I know that we did have vehicles

5 repaired, vehicles that belonged to physical persons, private persons. I

6 don't see why we wouldn't have been able to repair our own vehicle.

7 Q. Do you know where this car was parked when it wasn't being used?

8 A. It was parked by the metalwork shop.

9 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether human corpses had ever been

10 transported in that vehicle?

11 A. I know they were not, because if I had known about anything of the

12 kind, I would never have carried food that I was supposed to eat in such a

13 vehicle. I don't know of anyone who would do that. I don't know that

14 anyone would carry food in a vehicle knowing that corpses had been

15 transported in it the previous night.

16 Q. Can you tell us, while we're speaking about cars, was there petrol

17 freely available in Foca?

18 A. No. There was no fuel, either petrol or diesel. We obtained fuel

19 in canisters with a permit issued by the army. Up there in the field we

20 would get that fuel.

21 Q. Does it mean there was a shortage of fuel?

22 A. Yes. It was a real shortage.

23 Q. Do you know whether any vehicles of the KP Dom, which had belonged

24 to this institution before the outbreak of hostilities, were driven away?

25 A. Yes. I know that three vehicles were driven away, one passenger

Page 6003

1 Mercedes, two Lada vehicles, one fire-fighters' Land Rover. There was

2 also a bus that was driven away, but it was soon found. And I know that

3 Mico required the police station, because somebody somehow found out that

4 one of our vehicles was being driven out there in the field by one of the

5 members of the army, and he required them to bring it back. But as far as

6 I know, they never gave us back the same vehicle. They gave us a Yugo

7 instead.

8 Q. Do you know at whose request that Yugo car was given to you?

9 A. It was given to us at the request of Milorad Krnojelac. And I

10 remember specifically when we were going to the Maglic company in Brod, we

11 stopped by the police station and we had a request filed with that police

12 station on behalf of the Drina Economic Unit. It was either for -- a

13 request for issuing us with a vehicle or for returning a vehicle to us; I

14 don't remember that exactly.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the help of the usher, I would

16 like to show this witness document ID D81.

17 Q. You told us that Mr. Milorad Krnojelac reported the disappearance

18 of a car and filed a request for being issued with another vehicle. Did

19 you see this document that I'm showing you before or do you have any other

20 information about it?

21 A. I don't remember, as I say, but this is probably the document that

22 was typed out at the police station that time. I didn't look at it then,

23 because I wasn't particularly interested, but I know that there was talk

24 then about these vehicles.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to ask the

Page 6004













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Page 6005

1 usher now to show this witness document ID D82.

2 Q. Is this the document asking for a vehicle to be issued, made by

3 Milorad Krnojelac to the police station?

4 A. Yes, I see it is.

5 Q. Did you get the Yugo that you just mentioned, thanks to this

6 request?

7 A. I know that we got the Yugo, and it's probably under this request,

8 but I wasn't really interested at the time on what grounds we had got that

9 red Yugo from the police.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. We won't be needing

11 these documents any more.

12 Q. Could you tell us, what were your working hours when you worked as

13 a warehouse clerk?

14 A. From 7.00 to 3.00 p.m.

15 Q. Do you know what the working hours of Milorad Krnojelac were?

16 A. His working hours were also from 7.00 a.m. to 3.00 p.m.

17 Q. While you were performing the duties of the warehouse clerk, did

18 you see Milorad Krnojelac at the KP Dom?

19 A. Yes, I saw him every morning when we were both at work, because we

20 also had coffee in the morning, and I would see him during the day when we

21 made trips together. Otherwise I would rarely see him if we didn't have a

22 job to do together. But I regularly saw him in the morning.

23 Q. You said you had coffee with him in the morning. Did you have it

24 just the two of you?

25 A. No. We were never alone. There were usually all the chiefs of

Page 6006

1 working units, if they were at work that day at all. There was a working

2 meeting every morning, a staff meeting. There was Relja Goljanin, chief

3 of the metalwork shop; there was Miso Adzic from the construction unit;

4 there was the chief of the furniture factory; there was Bozo Drakul.

5 Q. Were these meetings attended by Mitar Rasevic and Savo Todovic?

6 A. No. They never attended any of those meetings that took place

7 over coffee, either Rasevic or Todovic. I don't know why Todovic didn't,

8 but Mitar Rasevic didn't drink coffee. Anyway, he never attended, because

9 these meetings didn't discuss anything that had to do with the economic

10 unit. And this is the kind of meeting, the staff meeting, that is always

11 held even today, and it was held before the war. That is common practice

12 in that institution in Foca; everywhere in Foca, in fact.

13 Q. Are you aware that Milorad Krnojelac was absent during some

14 periods from the KP Dom while you worked as a warehouse clerk?

15 A. Yes. He was absent when he went on trips that had to do with

16 procurement, and he was absent at the end of July for 10, perhaps 15

17 days. I don't know how long it was exactly, but I know it was longer than

18 a week.

19 Q. Do you know why he was away in Belgrade in June?

20 A. Yes, I know. His son had an accident at the time, and he was

21 transferred to Belgrade, to a hospital.

22 Q. When he went on business trips, I mean Milorad Krnojelac, how long

23 would he be away?

24 A. Sometimes it was two days, sometimes three. For instance, once

25 when we went together to Belgrade, we stayed three days. It all depended

Page 6007

1 on the readiness and the ability of the particular business partner to

2 cooperate with us and to fulfil the requirements that we had come with.

3 Q. Were your requests always met when you went on those business

4 trips?

5 A. Only in part. They were never quite fulfilled, because we always

6 brought back from those trips half or one-third of what we needed, what we

7 had asked for, never more than that, but we were happy even to get that

8 much.

9 Q. While you were working at the warehouse, what kind of clothes did

10 you wear?

11 A. I wore my normal civilian clothes.

12 Q. You told us that you saw Milorad Krnojelac. Do you remember what

13 he was wearing?

14 A. I couldn't tell you specifically. All I know is that he was never

15 dressed in full military uniform. He sometimes wore old olive-green/grey

16 army trousers, and a couple of times he came to work wearing not the

17 camouflage uniform but the olive-green/grey jacket combined with a

18 civilian shirt, but he never had full military clothing on. He never had

19 a complete military uniform.

20 Q. Did you ever see him carrying a weapon when you saw him at the

21 KP Dom?

22 A. No. I never saw him carrying any sort of weapon.

23 Q. While you worked as the warehouse clerk, did you see how the

24 guards were dressed?

25 A. Yes, I did. It depended. Some wore the standard guard's uniform,

Page 6008

1 some wore military uniforms, some wore civilian clothing. It all depended

2 on what each of them had, what was available. There was no strict

3 regulation.

4 Q. While you had that job of the warehouse clerk, did you ever enter

5 the prisoners' quarters?

6 A. No. From the time when I came to the KP Dom, from 1982 until the

7 day I retired, I never entered any of the buildings housing prisoners, so

8 I never saw anything inside those premises.

9 Q. While you were working there, did you ever see Muslim detainees at

10 the KP Dom?

11 A. Yes, I did. I saw detainees when I was going to the canteen. I

12 saw them in the compound because the courtyard is very close to the

13 warehouse. I would see a lot of them because every day some of them would

14 be working at my warehouse loading and unloading goods.

15 Q. When you saw them in the compound, what were they doing?

16 A. Most of the time they were walking about. I didn't see them doing

17 any work. They were just taking a walk.

18 Q. You said sometimes they unloaded goods. Who did you ask for their

19 help with unloading?

20 A. I would ask the guard in charge of the compound, and I would tell

21 him how many men I needed. It depended on the quantity of goods that

22 needed to be unloaded. He would give me one, two, three prisoners to help

23 me, and he would give them to me.

24 Q. Did they unload food?

25 A. Yes. It's precisely the goods I mean. Most of the goods I had to

Page 6009

1 do with were food supplies.

2 Q. Is that the food that you served everyone at the KP Dom?

3 A. Yes, that is the food, the food that I brought to the warehouse

4 and the food that was issued every morning from the warehouse for the

5 needs of the canteen.

6 Q. Coming to the warehouse where you worked, did you go through the

7 metal door leading into the compound?

8 A. Yes, because that is the only way you could enter.

9 Q. When you were coming in, did you have to go through the room which

10 is directly behind that door?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. While going through that room, did you see any bloodstains on the

13 wall of that room which is directly behind the metal door?

14 A. No, I didn't see any stains in that room.

15 Q. While you were at the KP Dom, working at the warehouse, did you

16 ever hear sounds of beatings or moans and cries?

17 A. No, never.

18 Q. While you worked at the warehouse, did you ever see ethnic Muslims

19 being taken to an exchange?

20 A. Once when I was coming back from town to the KP Dom, I saw a

21 minivan with people inside. There were also women and children among

22 them, men as well. Some soldiers were standing in front of it together

23 with Savo Todovic who was holding some kind of list, and from what I

24 gather from their conversation, they were going to Rudo. That's the only

25 time I saw anything of the kind.

Page 6010

1 Q. You told us that you had been to the office of Milorad Krnojelac.

2 Did you ever see Savo Todovic there?

3 A. No, never. I usually saw Savo Todovic at the office of the guard

4 on duty. I saw him there when I was coming in to work. That's the only

5 time and the only place I saw him.

6 Q. You mentioned having coffee. Was there a restaurant or a canteen

7 inside the KP Dom where coffee was made?

8 A. Yes. It was on the first floor of the administrative building.

9 Q. Was coffee made there?

10 A. Yes. Perhaps not in the first few days, but immediately after

11 those first days it was set up and running.

12 Q. Until when did you work as a warehouse clerk at the Drina Economic

13 Unit warehouse?

14 A. Until the 1st of August, 1992.

15 Q. After that date, where did you go?

16 A. I went to the front line.

17 Q. Were you mobilised by the military then and did you go to the

18 front line?

19 A. On the 1st of August, from somewhere - I don't know. I wasn't

20 interested. I didn't know - the warehouse clerk, Milos Vujicic, who had

21 done this professionally from before the war, returned to the KP Dom, and

22 I was sent call-up papers to report to Ustikolina on the next day, on the

23 2nd of August, at the unit there.

24 Q. Until when were you in this unit at the front line?

25 A. Until the 1st of March, 1999 -- no, sorry. 1996.

Page 6011













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Page 6012

1 Q. While you were still in Foca, do you know whether there was a

2 curfew there at the time?

3 A. Yes, there was a curfew, but I don't remember when or until when.

4 I know that from the evening hours until the morning hours there was a

5 curfew.

6 Q. Who did this curfew pertain to?

7 A. As far as I know, it pertained to all.

8 Q. You included?

9 A. It did pertain to me, yes.

10 Q. Can you tell me since when you've known Milorad Krnojelac?

11 A. I've known Milorad Krnojelac sometime from 1975 or 1976, because

12 we are colleagues. Both of us are mathematics teachers, and I met him at

13 seminars organised for math teachers.

14 Q. Can you tell me what your impressions were and what the

15 impressions of your colleagues were from these seminars? What kind of a

16 person is Milorad Krnojelac?

17 A. Well, the impressions were the following. I mean, let me put this

18 as briefly as possible. People liked seeing him, and all colleagues liked

19 seeing him. I think that I've said a lot that way. He was welcome by

20 all.

21 Q. Certainly. Just tell me whether these colleagues belonged to

22 different ethnic groups. Was this a multi-ethnic environment?

23 A. Yes. Yes. At that time people didn't pay attention to who

24 belonged to which ethnic group.

25 Q. Did you visit with Milorad Krnojelac and his family? Did you see

Page 6013

1 each other at your respective homes or did you only see each other at

2 work?

3 A. He was not that kind of friend. We did not visit with each other;

4 we only saw each other as colleagues. We didn't even see each other that

5 often in town. I'm referring to the period before 1992.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

7 Your Honour, the Defence has no further questions. Thank you.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination? Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

11 Q. Good morning, sir.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. You said that you worked as a teacher in the KP Dom until April

14 1992. At that time Mr. Tesevic was the warden; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Mr. Tesevic took Muslim convicts in April 1992 to Tuzla. Are you

17 aware of this?

18 A. I heard about that. I was not in Foca at the time when that

19 happened, but I heard about that upon my return to Foca.

20 Q. And after Mr. Tesevic returned from taking these Muslim prisoners

21 away, he refused to stay on as warden; right?

22 A. I don't know about that.

23 Q. Mr. Tesevic was a moderate Serb; right?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. He was your chief for ten years, right, before the war? You knew

Page 6014

1 him for ten years as the chief; right?

2 A. Well, let me tell you: I don't know whether I saw him ten times

3 in those ten years. Maybe it seems illogical, but I worked at the

4 school. I had a principal of my own. The school worked in the afternoon,

5 from 4.30 until 7.00 in the evening, when everybody, all the employees,

6 including the warden, were at home. When I say "ten times," I'm not

7 referring to accidental meetings in town or something like that, but I'm

8 saying that during those ten years I don't know if I had official contacts

9 with him at the KP Dom ten times.

10 Q. In the private context, are you saying that you do not know

11 Mr. Tesevic well?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You said after you returned from Belgrade you reported at the KP

14 Dom. Why did you report to the KP Dom? Who told you to go there to

15 report?

16 A. My war assignment in peacetime, before the war, involved the KP

17 Dom. After my return from Belgrade, I went to report at my post, in

18 accordance with my war assignment.

19 Q. Did you get a call-up document from the military before you went

20 to the KP Dom?

21 A. No, I did not get any papers. They didn't have enough time to

22 give me any. I came back on Friday and I went there immediately on

23 Monday.

24 Q. To whom did you report in the KP Dom? You reported to the warden,

25 didn't you?

Page 6015

1 A. When I came to the KP Dom, I found Mr. Milorad Krnojelac down

2 there, Relja Goljanin, basically all the pre-war workers from the KP Dom,

3 with the exception of Milorad Krnojelac. I said that I was coming to

4 work, and then Savo Todovic -- I mean, before the war, he was the one who

5 worked at the re-education service for correction officers, and I thought

6 that he was there on their behalf. He said that he didn't need me. Mitar

7 Rasevic, on behalf of the police, said that he didn't need me either.

8 Then Mico Krnojelac asked me whether I could work for him at the

9 warehouse, and I said I could, and that's how I became the warehouse clerk

10 at the KP Dom.

11 Q. And you said "down there." Where exactly in the KP Dom did you

12 meet them, these people that you just mentioned?

13 A. We met in front of the KP Dom.

14 Q. You said that your -- you described in detail that you worked in

15 the warehouse. However, you -- this was not your only function, was it?

16 A. My only task was being warehouse clerk. I had no other

17 assignments during that time.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

19 show the witness the document P3.

20 Q. And would you please have a look at the line number 10 on this

21 document. That is where your assignment -- where your assignment is

22 mentioned, and it says here, "Warehouse worker and security." So you were

23 a guard.

24 A. Absolutely wrong. This is incorrect. I was never in any kind of

25 security. I never did anything else between April and August 1992. I

Page 6016

1 just worked at the warehouse, nothing else.

2 Q. You see in the line "Duration of work," it says from 20 April 1992

3 to 2 August 1992. That's correct, right? That is what you said.

4 A. Yes, the dates are correct.

5 Q. And your name and your date of birth is correct, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And "warehouse worker" is correct, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. But you claim that "security" is wrong. Is that your claim?

10 A. I claim that I was never in any kind of security. Perhaps it was

11 somewhere on paper - I can see it right here - but I was never on any

12 security, nor did I ever take a rifle into my hands before the 2nd of

13 August, 1992.

14 Q. You told us that in August 1992, you actually had to go to the

15 front line, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You explained that the former warehouse worker came and replaced

18 you, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you try to stay on in the KP Dom, to get another position

21 perhaps? Did you try to stay there?

22 A. I did not try to get another position at all, because at that time

23 there was nothing else at the KP Dom that was operating that I could have

24 done in terms of my professional training or any other abilities.

25 Q. But to be a warehouse worker is not your professional training,

Page 6017

1 sir. You are a teacher, right? You didn't mind to become a warehouse

2 worker?

3 A. That's a job that requires a high school diploma, according to the

4 rules. I had completed secondary school, general high school, so I would

5 have met the requirements even in peacetime, let alone in wartime. As for

6 me personally, it didn't bother me.

7 Q. You could have stayed in the security branch. You were already

8 listed in security, right?

9 A. I only know that I was called up to report on the 2nd of August at

10 headquarters in Ustikolina and that's what I had to do. And at that time

11 I was not thinking at all about possibly staying at the KP Dom.

12 Q. You'd rather be on the front line taking actually part in the

13 fighting than to take part in the detention and mistreatment of Muslims,

14 right? That's the point, isn't it?

15 A. Well, let me tell you: I already said that I did not think about

16 it at all. I really do not wish to comment upon a question like this. I

17 was called up. I received call-up papers. And it was a well-known

18 thing. When you receive call-up papers, you have to report or otherwise

19 you're going to be detained for not responding to call-up.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the question, it has been

21 answered, but it creates a problem as to what we're going to make of the

22 answer. It assumes that he knew of this mistreatment. You have got no

23 such concession from the witness.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. That's true.

25 JUDGE HUNT: So when he says, "I don't wish to comment upon it," I

Page 6018













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6019

1 am a little worried. There was no objection to the question, but I think,

2 if I may say so, it could be better worded.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Your Honour, I come to the details in

4 relation to some incidents.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, may I suggest that you put that before you

6 assume the existence of a concession which has not yet been made, because

7 it embarrasses the Trial Chamber to a very large extent as to how we treat

8 his answer.


10 Q. Witness, you are aware that before you left, atrocities were

11 committed against Muslim detainees, right?

12 A. I never heard of or noticed or heard from any sources that

13 anything was going on at the KP Dom.

14 Q. But you know now, right? You know now of the allegations against

15 Mr. Krnojelac and of what happened in the KP Dom, right?

16 A. I repeat once again: I personally do not know. And now what is

17 heard of, what is read, what is seen on television is a different thing,

18 but I personally am not aware of any kind of inhuman or inhumane treatment

19 at the KP Dom.

20 Q. Sir, are you following this trial? Do you read newspaper reports

21 about this trial?

22 A. Newspapers, I hardly ever read them. As for this trial, I haven't

23 read anything about it in the newspapers. It's very rarely published, in

24 our parts, anyway.

25 Q. Before you came here, did you not hear about the allegations,

Page 6020

1 about the atrocities that allegedly had been committed? Do you really

2 claim that?

3 A. Could you please repeat your question for me? Because I don't

4 know what this last part of the question refers to.

5 Q. Murders, murders of detainees in the KP Dom during night-time,

6 beating up of detainees during daytime and night-time. Do you claim you

7 never ever heard about this? Even after the war you did never hear about

8 it?

9 A. No, I'm not claiming that.

10 Q. What do you say? You heard about it; is that right?

11 A. I am saying that I heard about that as of late, when these arrests

12 started for war crimes, that is.

13 Q. And do you say that this did not happen in the KP Dom? Is that

14 what you say, it did not happen?

15 A. No. That's not what I'm trying to say because I don't know about

16 that. I really don't know.

17 Q. Now after eight years and before you came to testify here, you

18 heard about the details of the allegations about murder, didn't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you hear that detainees, a bigger group, 36 detainees,

21 actually, were beaten up and killed around Vidovdan in 1992?

22 A. No, I did not hear about that.

23 Q. Did you hear that detainees were not only beaten up but shot

24 afterwards around Vidovdan and carried away in a car?

25 A. I'm not aware of that.

Page 6021

1 Q. However, in relation to the car that was used for transporting

2 fish, you said the following: "I don't know that anyone would carry food

3 in a vehicle knowing that corpses had been transported in it the previous

4 night."

5 Can you explain that? Although you say you don't know the

6 details, you speak about transporting corpses the previous night. Can you

7 explain that?

8 A. Well, the lawyer asked me. He put a question to me. I can't

9 remember exactly, verbatim, but something like whether I would transport

10 food in an automobile where corpses were transported. That's how he

11 phrased his question, something like that, and that was my answer then.

12 Q. You're correct, but the lawyer didn't mention -- Mr. Vasic did not

13 mention transporting corpses the previous night. That's something very

14 specific related to this trial and the evidence in this trial.

15 A. Well, you see, I drove that Poly every day. I used it every day.

16 So as you say, had that happened, that would have to have taken place

17 during the previous night, because food was transported in the Poly every

18 day, at least bread from the town bakery.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Let's move on to another issue.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour.


22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I did not want to interrupt my learned

23 friend, but in response to my question, the witness said "during the

24 previous days and nights." He did not only mention nights. So my

25 colleague took only part of his answer out of context.

Page 6022

1 JUDGE HUNT: Can you give us the page number? I've just been

2 trying to find it myself.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The page number is 31 and it was line 7

4 to 11. And I actually wrote from this -- it says "in the previous night."

5 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. I was surprised at your question,

6 frankly; that's why I was looking for it.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's actually line 11.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, I see. My memory was only of the first part of

9 the answer, I must confess.

10 Well, Mr. Vasic, there it is.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I see in the

12 transcript now that it says "previous night." However, as far as the

13 Defence can remember, the witness said "the previous days and nights." If

14 this is what it says, then my objection can only be overruled.

15 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid so, and it is.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but let's move on to another issue.

17 Q. You explained to us how you supplied food, and you said that, for

18 instance, the cook came to you and requested certain amounts and the

19 guards in the compound did so. Did you ever get written requests for such

20 supplies?

21 A. No. At that time there were no written requests.

22 Q. And those who requested from you -- supplies from you, the guards

23 or the cook, they did not distinguish whether it was food or equipment for

24 the Muslim detainees, the Serbs serving sentences, or the Serbs detained

25 there before conviction; right? There was no distinction?

Page 6023

1 A. The food was issued and was prepared together for all, so there

2 was no difference in terms of who the food was being given to. Food was

3 prepared together for all. As for the bed linen and the blankets that I

4 issued, I see here it says 170 sheets were given. At that time it was

5 said that it was for all. And now, whether the guard in charge of the

6 compound gave it to 170 people or to everyone, that was not part of my job

7 and I wasn't interested in that.

8 Q. You say -- I see here it says "170 sheets." Where are you looking

9 at? Where did you read this now?

10 A. I saw that in my notebook here that contains the notes that I took

11 at that time in 1992.

12 Q. You did not make a distinction whether it was sheets for the

13 detainees or the Serb prisoners who were serving sentences; right? For

14 you there was no reason to make such a distinction; right?

15 A. It was not necessary, and no distinction was made as far as

16 issuing goods from the warehouse was concerned.

17 Q. Could you yourself approve all requests for equipment and food or

18 did you have to ask your superior?

19 A. There were no approvals, nor did I ask for approval from anyone.

20 What was said was that everything that we had should be distributed until

21 it ran out, and then once it would run out, it would run out, and there

22 wouldn't be anything.

23 Q. And Mr. Krnojelac, was it; he was the person who told you, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You have this notebook. Is that the only place where you made

Page 6024

1 notes about deliveries or did you have an official log book at your

2 working place?

3 A. There was no official log book at the working place, no. At that

4 time there weren't any proper books that were kept in terms of what kind

5 of goods were brought in and what kind of goods were issued. It was

6 wartime. As far as I know, this is the only document. However, there was

7 a commission that took an inventory of all the stocks in the warehouse

8 before I came - I don't know when they did that - and the inventory was

9 made the day I left, when this other man came in. As for the daily

10 issuing of goods, I don't think that there is any other record of that,

11 apart from what I have here.

12 Q. And you said you found this notebook 15 days ago. Where did you

13 find it?

14 A. I found it in the garage.

15 Q. In your garage or ...

16 A. I found it in my garage, because during the war I moved to a

17 different apartment, so I left some things in the garage. And now I was

18 looking for something else in the garage and I came across this notebook.

19 Q. I would like to see this notebook. Can I -- with the help of the

20 usher, I would like to have a look at it, if you don't mind, sir.

21 A. Please go ahead.

22 Q. Sir, is it all your handwriting?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you made it at that time?

25 A. Yes, at that time.

Page 6025













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6026

1 Q. Did you fill that in every day? For instance, if we see here 13th

2 of June, you made it on 13th of June?

3 A. Yes.

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, just a second.

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to give it back to you.

8 THE WITNESS: [In English] Thank you.


10 Q. You said that except for these notes, you didn't make any other

11 notes in a log book or whatever, so that means you did not ever make any

12 invoices for the military, for the army; right?

13 A. At that time, while I was there, no such thing was done.

14 Q. You said that supplies were not always available, so you went to

15 Mr. Krnojelac to ask for supplies, didn't you?

16 A. Every day, irrespective of the stocks that were left over from the

17 KP Dom, practically every day -- hardly a day would go by without us going

18 to look for goods in order to replenish our stocks, because supplies in

19 Foca were very poor, practically non-existent, and we realised that every

20 day that came would be even more and more difficult. So Mr. Krnojelac and

21 I tried to replenish our stocks, our warehouse, as best we could.

22 Q. Sir, why didn't you go just simply to the farm, the Brioni farm,

23 where the food was produced?

24 A. Actually, food is not produced at Brioni, only at the farm, and at

25 the farm it's only milk and eggs that are produced as far as daily

Page 6027

1 production is concerned, and we obtained eggs. As a matter of fact, only

2 that which would be left over after everybody else who needed it got it.

3 The same went for milk. And also, we got meat from the farm if for any

4 reason up there some animal had to be slaughtered. That's the way it was

5 all the time.

6 Q. The farm which was part of the KP Dom produced eggs and milk and

7 other things, and they were sold instead of given to the inmates; is that

8 right?

9 A. It is right that the farm produced eggs and milk and that that was

10 sold because dinars had to be obtained some way in order to go to

11 Yugoslavia to procure cattle feed, chicken feed, and also feed for the

12 pigs, et cetera. Milk had to be distributed to children in town at first,

13 so that it could be sold there, and it is only then that others could get

14 it.

15 Q. In addition to the food that would have been available from the

16 farm that was used otherwise, the army also provided food, right?

17 A. I said that only while I was there that's the way it was, although

18 we kept asking the military. The military was supposed to give supplies

19 for military detainees. Some goods arrived only twice in trucks. The

20 military brought these goods only twice while I was there.

21 Q. And the ICRC also provided food to Foca and the KP Dom, didn't

22 they?

23 A. While I was down there, I don't remember any such thing. Only a

24 truck full of cabbage came from somewhere. Who the donor or the

25 delivering party was, I don't know. There was nothing else.

Page 6028

1 Q. Having all these possibilities to get food locally, there was no

2 need for you and Mr. Krnojelac to travel all the time to Montenegro and

3 even to Belgrade for food, right?

4 A. Had there been enough in Foca, we would not have gone, because why

5 would we go into the trouble of going through Celebici and all these other

6 far away places, but there was no other choice?

7 Q. You mentioned that you travelled about Foca to the various

8 companies, and you had to wait -- including the bakery, and you sometimes

9 had to wait for hours to get your supplies because the KP Dom came last,

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac didn't wait together with you for hours, did he?

13 A. Mr. Krnojelac never went to the bakery. At least he never went

14 with me. Wherever else we went, Maglic, Perucica, whatever, he was there

15 all the time.

16 Q. Sir, you said that you spent many days in that car, in that

17 particular delivery car, because you had to wait for food, you had to wait

18 in front of the companies, two of the companies. You do not claim that

19 Mr. Krnojelac was with you the entire day in that car in Foca? You're not

20 claiming that, do you?

21 A. Well, let me tell you: I'm not claiming that I was there all day

22 either, because we did not go to Perucica and Maglic or wherever in the

23 same day. One day we would go to Perucica. It never happened that we

24 wouldn't bring nothing back. So if one day -- if we would go to Perucica,

25 the next day we would go to Maglic, and then the next day we'd go to

Page 6029

1 Unis. We'd never go to all these places in one day only.

2 Q. So you were away in that car just an hour or so on a daily basis

3 within Foca?

4 A. Well, not in the car. It depended. An hour would be a minimum.

5 Sometimes two or three hours.

6 Q. But Mr. Krnojelac wasn't with you during these several hours,

7 right? He had to do his warden job, didn't he?

8 A. I do not recall that he ever left before me, that he would leave

9 me there or that I would drive him there and then come back. It never

10 happened. I don't remember that he ever left before me and went to the

11 KP Dom.

12 Q. You said that you went to Belgrade with him. When? When exactly

13 did you travel with him to Belgrade?

14 A. I don't remember. I know it was sometime around the end of May,

15 beginning of June. I know it was certainly before the 15th of June, and I

16 don't remember exactly at which time.

17 Q. Why do you know it was before the 15th? What is so specific about

18 the 15th of June?

19 A. My daughter's birthday is on the 15th of June and she was in

20 Belgrade.

21 Q. And how many days did you stay there?

22 A. Three days, a total of three days.

23 Q. You said that you also travelled with Mr. Krnojelac to Montenegro,

24 to specific towns in Montenegro. Those were day trips, right?

25 A. I went to Niksic only once. Mr. Krnojelac went with others. And

Page 6030

1 at that time we stayed in Niksic for only one day.

2 Q. When did you go to Niksic? When was that?

3 A. I'm not sure. Somewhere near the end of my work at the KP Dom.

4 Q. You said that Mr. Krnojelac went with others, but you cannot give

5 us the dates. You cannot give us the details, right?

6 A. Well, had this happened a month ago, perhaps I would not have

7 known either, and this happened eight years ago. It never really meant a

8 thing to me, so I didn't even try to remember that.

9 Q. You mentioned the Poly Zastava that was used for delivering fish

10 as an example, but the fish farm was destroyed at the beginning of the

11 war, wasn't it?

12 A. Yes, the fish farm was destroyed. And that's what I was saying.

13 When the fish farm was destroyed, that's when we were transporting fish.

14 Whatever was not destroyed was taken down to the pond at Bukovica, and

15 what was let go was caught in the river and brought in for food.

16 Q. When was the fishpond destroyed? It was in the beginning of the

17 war, right?

18 A. Well, sometime towards the end of May, beginning of June, as far

19 as I can remember.

20 Q. And afterwards, there was no more -- not much fish available any

21 more, at least not in quantities to be delivered in containers, right?

22 A. No. After that, no. That was the only time that fish was

23 transported while I was there.

24 Q. Yes. And you mentioned the Furgon truck that you used for

25 travelling to Montenegro and other places, but the Furgon truck did not

Page 6031

1 function throughout your time, right? It was -- it had to be repaired,

2 right?

3 A. The KP Dom had five or six Furgons. I don't know which one was

4 operational, which one was not. It wasn't that there was only one

5 Furgon. I know that we took a Furgon to Belgrade. We were taking some

6 furniture there for Jugodrvo, and in return we got some food. And I also

7 know a Furgon was taken to Jugoimpex in Titograd. It was driven by

8 Andzelic. I know that Krnojelac went with him and they were transporting

9 some furniture again, and they brought in some food. And now, whether

10 that Furgon was repaired in the meantime or not or whether it was a

11 different Furgon, I don't know. They're all the same and I wasn't looking

12 at the registration plates or something. I wasn't interested.

13 Q. How many Furgons -- oh, you said five or six. Right. Thank you.

14 Mr. Krnojelac himself had a red Zastava car, right?

15 A. No. Mr. Krnojelac -- I don't know whether he had any car of his

16 own. I know we at the KP Dom got a red Yugo from the police. As for a

17 vehicle of his own, I really don't know. I don't know before whether he

18 had a vehicle either.

19 Q. The warden, which car did he use? Did he use the Yugo that you

20 just mentioned?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And is it a red Yugo?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac drive the Yugo himself or was there always a

25 driver with him?

Page 6032













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6033

1 A. Well, I don't know about that exactly. It depends. I know that

2 he was driven by his son very often. Now, whether that was customary

3 practice or not, I don't know. I didn't really see him as he left. I was

4 nearby, at Donje Polje. I lived nearby in Donje Polje. That's where my

5 apartment was. So I really don't know.

6 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac driving this car after he was replaced

7 as the warden? Did he use it for personal driving?

8 A. I don't know. I did not see him in the vehicle. To tell you the

9 truth, I don't know where he was replaced. I'm not aware of the date. I

10 was a worker of the KP Dom, but when I went to the front line from the KP

11 Dom, until the 1st of March, 1996, I never stopped by the KP Dom, so I was

12 not aware of who was working there at all or who had retired or who had

13 come, so I really don't know about this that you asked me about.

14 Q. While you were in the KP Dom and while you had the contact with

15 Mr. Krnojelac, you addressed him as "the warden"; right?

16 A. I don't know whether I ever said "warden," "upravnik," to him. We

17 were colleagues for many years. Perhaps you will notice that I often say

18 "Mico." That's what I called him. He called me Lazo. I called him

19 Mico. I don't know whether I ever addressed him differently.

20 Q. How did the guards address Mr. Krnojelac, or those who were not

21 teachers?

22 A. Usually as "upravnik."

23 Q. And you mentioned that you also saw him in his office.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Do you think we could have that translated?


Page 6034

1 JUDGE HUNT: I think I know what it means, but it would be best to

2 have it on the record. It means warden, doesn't it?


4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Thank you.


6 Q. You mentioned that you occasionally saw him in his office. It was

7 on the second floor in the administration building; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It was the same office that Mr. Tesevic used when he was the

10 warden; right?

11 A. Yes. Yes. That is the office of the warden of the KP Dom.

12 Q. You said that you used to see Mr. Todovic at the duty officer's

13 booth. Did you -- do you know that his office was directly next to

14 Mr. Krnojelac's office? Are you aware of this?

15 A. At that time the office wasn't there. That office was ruined at

16 the time, so at that time not a single office could have been used

17 properly except for that of the warden.

18 Q. What do you mean by "ruined"? The windows were shattered; right?

19 A. Yes. The windows were shattered, the furniture was basically

20 destroyed. Something was searched for in drawers and elsewhere. All of

21 it was broken, the doors too.

22 Q. But this applies to all offices in the administration building,

23 doesn't it?

24 A. All the offices were basically destroyed, some more, some less,

25 but there was not a single one that was in a normal state.

Page 6035

1 Q. But the people worked in these offices nevertheless, right; the

2 staff members worked there?

3 A. Then, at that time, no one worked in those offices. At that time,

4 at the beginning, no one did. They came and they cleaned it, and then

5 plastic was put on the windows, and then it was repaired and the furniture

6 was taken up to the factory to have it repaired. And in due time, the

7 situation was normalised.

8 Q. What was the time when it became normal? A month?

9 A. Not even after three months. While I was there, the situation had

10 not become normalised. There were two or three offices on the first floor

11 that were repaired in order to be available for use, but nothing else.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Right.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's 1.00.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I could see that you were about to ask another

15 question.


17 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn now until 2.30.

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.








Page 6036

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Now you may ask that question, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE HUNT: They always have the easiest task anyway.

5 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. During the break we

7 had -- the Prosecution had the opportunity to check the notebook of the

8 witness - Defence and witness provided it to us - and I have just a few

9 questions related to this notebook.

10 Q. Mr. Divljan, on the 21st of -- if you open it, your notebook,

11 please, and look at your note of the 21st April. On the 21st April, that

12 is, rather, on the next day when you started, you made a note of 600

13 soaps, pieces of soaps, and 100 toilet-paper rolls. Did you --

14 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise to my learned

16 friend, but it says in the transcript "600" bars of soap, whereas the

17 interpreter said "160." I think this might provide an answer to this

18 question.

19 JUDGE HUNT: What did you say?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Six hundred.

21 JUDGE HUNT: That's my recollection, but --

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. It's 600, 600 bars of soap and the

23 toilet paper.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I hope this is important, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


Page 6037

1 Q. This huge amount of toiletries and toilet paper, you gave it to

2 the army, right? It's not that it was used in the KP Dom.

3 A. This was used exclusively by convicts and detainees. It was

4 turned over to the guard in charge of the compound and to be used for the

5 personal hygiene of convicts and detainees.

6 Q. But in the beginning there weren't that many detainees there. Not

7 600 detainees.

8 A. Let me tell you this: This was lying in the cellar, in the

9 basement, and it was already starting to rot sort of, and to save it from

10 going bad, we decided to turn it over to the warden's [as interpreted]

11 office so that it could be distributed. That's what this soap and other

12 things, other toiletries, were used for.

13 Q. What do you mean by "decided to turn it over to the warden's

14 office"?

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately I have to intervene

18 again. The witness said that it was given to the guard on duty to be

19 distributed, not the warden's office.

20 JUDGE HUNT: That's a difficult one for there to be any mistake.

21 But anyway, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, perhaps you better get it sorted out.


23 Q. To whom did you give this soap and toiletries?

24 A. To the guard in charge of the compound. That's the policeman, the

25 guard, the old guard who was the chief of security within the perimeter,

Page 6038

1 within the compound.

2 Q. And in relation to an entry in your book on June 24th -- if you

3 would just look at the page for June 24th, sir - you also made a note

4 about thousand individual pieces of soap and another 75 -- it was a little

5 bit hard for us to read. Maybe you --

6 A. This 75 is -- refers not to cosmetic soap but for soap used for

7 laundry, and this 100 [as interpreted] of small bars of soap, I don't know

8 where we got them from, I don't remember, but I know I turned them over to

9 the guard in charge of the compound, to be distributed to detainees.

10 These small bars of soap, the sort used in hotels, put in hotel

11 rooms, that is cosmetic soap, and the other bars of soap refer to soap

12 used for washing the laundry.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, in the transcript it says "100"

14 small bars. It's "thousand." It has to be "thousand small bars."

15 Q. At that time, Mr. Divljan, do you recall that the Red Cross came

16 and that the detainees got an opportunity to clean themselves for the

17 first time?

18 A. I don't remember about the visit of the Red Cross, but I know that

19 the convicts and the detainees had opportunity to wash even before. It

20 was using a bucket of hot water lying by the cauldron at the canteen. I

21 don't know whether they had a bath or not, but they had the conditions

22 that they had.

23 As for the visit of the Red Cross, I don't remember that the Red

24 Cross made any appearances at that time.

25 Q. And just one more question related to your notebook. You

Page 6039













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6040

1 sometimes made a note about cans of goulash. How many kilogrammes are in

2 a can?

3 A. There existed three sorts of goulash. It was mainly two-kilo

4 cans. There were also five-kilo cans and one-kilo cans, but most of them

5 were two kilos.

6 Q. Yes. Thank you. You mentioned that while you were there in the

7 warehouse, eight to nine convicts were actually in the KP Dom, and the

8 majority of the inmates were detained persons, both Serbs and Muslims;

9 right?

10 A. It is true that there were only nine or, that is, eight of them.

11 One of them was going back and forth between the KP Dom and the economic

12 unit, that is, the farm. Down at the KP Dom there were only eight, and

13 all the rest were detainees, as they call them. Most of them were

14 Muslim. Several of them - I don't remember the exact number - were Serbs

15 who ended up there as a result of some mistakes or incidents.

16 Q. You said that you made notes of what you actually needed for the

17 kitchen; right? You made a list?

18 A. No, it was not really a list. If I was going on such a trip

19 myself, I wouldn't make a list, because I knew that if one thing wasn't

20 available, I would take another. But if Mico was going without me, I did

21 make a list of sorts indicating priorities.

22 Q. And you gave it to Mr. Krnojelac, right, these notes or list?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And Mr. Krnojelac could have simply made a written request to the

25 army and asked them to provide the food; right?

Page 6041

1 A. I don't know whether any requests were made. I knew that we asked

2 the army, but whether any requests were made, I don't know. I don't

3 remember. I know that things were asked of the army. I sometimes went to

4 ask myself.

5 Q. You sometimes went to the military command in Velecevo with

6 Mr. Krnojelac to ask for food? Did you mean that?

7 A. No, I didn't go to Velecevo. I went to Livade, where the

8 warehouses were, but I didn't go to Velecevo.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

10 show the witness the document ID D107. It's not yet entered into

11 evidence.

12 Q. Sir, would you please just briefly read this document.

13 JUDGE HUNT: To himself, I hope.


15 Q. Let me, so that it's also coming into the transcript, let me just

16 ask you specific questions. This is a request from the warden, Milorad

17 Krnojelac, to the military post 7141, the Foca garrison; right?

18 A. Well, looking at this document, it seems so, but this was in March

19 of 1993, the 3rd of March, more precisely, and I wasn't at the KP Dom at

20 the time.

21 Q. And it says in this document:

22 "Pursuant to the agreement on making KP Dom premises available

23 for the accommodation of detained persons, the Foca KP Dom penal and

24 correction facility holds Muslim detainees and Serbian offenders from the

25 ranks of the Republika Srpska army. For the purposes of feeding them,

Page 6042

1 please approve the allocation of the following food supplies," and there

2 comes a long list of food supplies. And it says then, "These quantities

3 are sufficient for a month's food requirements. We count on your

4 understanding and your help."

5 So Mr. Krnojelac could simply write a request of what was needed.

6 Are you aware that he did that in the months May, June, July, when you

7 were there?

8 A. I'm not aware that he made any written requests.

9 Q. Thank you. That's enough. We can move on.

10 The notes in your notebook stopped on the 8th of July, 1992, and

11 you mentioned already from that date onwards you did not receive food

12 supplies; right?

13 A. No, that's not correct. That's not what I said. I said that on

14 that date the warehouse was almost empty, and we received so little from

15 outside, external warehouses belonging to companies, that all that I

16 managed to get, I carried straight to the canteen, so nothing went to my

17 warehouse.

18 Q. Yes, but all what was received after the 8th July until you left,

19 it did not go through your hands, all of it, right; it was delivered

20 otherwise as well?

21 A. All that arrived later was brought, transported exclusively by

22 me. Nobody else touched it except for the workers who helped unload.

23 Q. But why didn't you make any notes any more?

24 A. Well, let me tell you this: I made these notes in the kitchen, in

25 the morning. When I went to the kitchen, I would ask the cook, "What do

Page 6043

1 you need for today?" And he would tell me, and I made these notes based

2 on what he said. Two detainees would come along with me. We would load

3 the goods and carry them. I didn't do that at the warehouse; I did it at

4 the kitchen. I don't know if you noticed that there are some corrections

5 in those entries. When I would write 20 of one item in the kitchen when

6 the cook requested it, I would see back at the warehouse that I had only

7 10 of that thing, so I would correct my own entry based on what was

8 actually available.

9 Q. Mr. Divljan, when you returned to the KP Dom on the 1st of March,

10 1996 to continue to work there, what position did you get?

11 A. I got the job of an independent clerk for in-house records.

12 Q. You said that the staff and the detainees ate the same food in the

13 same canteen, right?

14 A. They ate the same food, but the canteens, the dining-rooms, were

15 different. Between those two rooms there was the kitchen. The detainees

16 had their meals in one room and the staff had their meals in the other.

17 Q. The Muslim detainees ate first, right?

18 A. I couldn't tell you that.

19 Q. You never saw them eat, right?

20 A. I saw them eat, but I don't remember whether Muslim detainees had

21 their meals separately from those from Serbia. I know there was a

22 practice of detainees sharing the same room, taking their meals together,

23 because I could see them going to and from the canteen. So I know that.

24 The staff did not have particular time when they could take their meals.

25 They just went to eat when they had the time.

Page 6044

1 Q. The Muslim detainees got their food in salad bowls, right, in the

2 small salad bowls and not proper plates? You saw that.

3 A. All convicts and detainees received their food in the same

4 portions. The rations were all the same. I think those rations, those

5 bowls, could hold at least half a litre. Those were plastic dishes.

6 Q. Before the staff members and the Serb prisoners ate, fat,

7 vegetables, and meat such as goulash was added to the food, right? The

8 Muslims didn't see a thing of these more nutritious goods, right?

9 A. I'm not aware of that. I still think that you are wrong.

10 Q. You saw the Muslim detainees in the yard. You described that you

11 saw them taking walks. You saw that they lost weight rapidly, right?

12 A. During the time I was there, I didn't see that they lost so much

13 weight, because it was a brief period. Whether they lost more weight

14 later, I don't know, but during the short time I was there, I wasn't able

15 to see that they suffered such a rapid weight loss.

16 Q. Did you ever have lambs or lamb's meat in your warehouse?

17 A. There was no lamb at the warehouse. Once I got -- we got some dry

18 lamb from -- in fact, mutton from Maglic, but we didn't take it to the

19 warehouse because there was no electricity there. And all the meat we got

20 was directly from the farm after the slaughtering of the animals. We

21 didn't take anything to the warehouse.

22 Q. The lamb was not eaten by the Muslim detainees, right?

23 A. They should have, because it was cooked. I wasn't there when the

24 food was distributed from the cauldron into dishes, but I suppose they

25 did. I suppose they did get it, because the food was served by Muslim

Page 6045

1 detainees who worked at the canteen.

2 Q. Wasn't lamb meat prepared for Mr. Krnojelac and his high-ranking

3 visitors? Weren't they the only ones who got it?

4 A. As far as I know, nobody got any lamb, not Mr. Krnojelac or anyone

5 else. A couple of times I had my lunch with Mico. He had the same food

6 that we shared.

7 Q. I was not talking about the food that Mr. Krnojelac took together

8 with other staff members in the canteen. I was talking about lambs that

9 were prepared for him and officers, and they ate it somewhere else in the

10 building. That is something I was referring to. Are you aware of this?

11 A. I don't know anything about that.

12 Q. You know the driver Arso Krnojelac, right? He was working in the

13 KP Dom.

14 A. I know.

15 Q. Where did he come from? Where did he live? Do you know that?

16 A. I think he has his own private house in Cerezluk.

17 Q. Do you know where he came from, which village he came?

18 A. I think it is Bunovi. That's what we call it.

19 Q. And where is it?

20 A. That's on the way from Foca towards Montenegro.

21 Q. Is it near Zavajt?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What is the distance between Bunovi and Zavajt?

24 A. I don't know. I never travelled that way. I know -- I don't

25 think there is a road there. I never even -- I've never even been in

Page 6046













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6047

1 Bunovi, but I know approximately where it is.

2 Q. Do you know Mr. Aco's wife?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You said that you saw detainees, Muslim detainees, taking walks in

5 the yard. They walked to the canteen, right? Nowhere else, just to the

6 canteen; isn't that true?

7 A. No. They were walking about the courtyard, because at the time

8 when I saw them, it was not breakfast or lunch-time, because at those

9 times they would be going to the canteen in a file. This was between

10 mealtimes. In any case, I saw them walking about.

11 Q. How many did you see, just a few or actually all the detainees now

12 and then?

13 A. I don't remember the number now. They were not walking about one

14 by one, nor were there any large groups. I don't know how many they were

15 in a room or how many rooms there were. It was not the same number every

16 time either.

17 Q. You saw Muslim detainees also cutting wood in the yard, didn't

18 you?

19 A. While I was there, nobody cut any trees in the courtyard, not

20 Muslims and not Serbs, because firewood was brought from outside. It was

21 firewood used in the kitchen, also timber in large logs. And in any case,

22 the firewood was brought ready-made and chopped. There was no need to cut

23 anything.

24 Q. You saw the Muslim detainees clean the yard, right?

25 A. I don't remember seeing them, but I must have, because detainees

Page 6048

1 everywhere have -- do such duties, clean the yard, et cetera, but I don't

2 particularly remember seeing anyone.

3 Q. Detainees didn't have enough blankets -- the Muslim detainees

4 didn't have enough blankets and they didn't have enough beds, right?

5 A. According to the report of the guard in charge of the compound,

6 every -- every detainee had a mattress and blanket, maybe more than one

7 blanket.

8 Q. But you never saw them in their rooms, so you don't know?

9 A. I don't know that this is so, because I never entered inside, but

10 the staff were all professionals who had done that job before. I don't

11 see any reason why they would keep blankets piled somewhere else instead

12 of giving them to people to use.

13 Q. You said that most of the detainees were prisoners of war, and I

14 think -- I assume you refer to the Muslim detainees, right?

15 A. Muslim detainees and a few Serbs who were also there. They were

16 detained by the army for certain violations.

17 Q. You lived in Foca since when? Since when did you move to Foca?

18 A. In 1982.

19 Q. And Foca is a small town, so people know each other, right?

20 A. Mainly, yes.

21 Q. And when you saw the Muslim detainees in the yard, you noticed

22 that it was your neighbours, right?

23 A. Some of them were.

24 Q. And there were old people among the detainees, the Muslim

25 detainees; right?

Page 6049

1 A. There may have been, possibly. It all depends on what you -- who

2 you call an old person.

3 Q. But it seems that they were not of fighting age.

4 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that. It's possible that there

5 were people like that too, but I don't know.

6 Q. And there were well-known directors among the detainees, such as

7 the two Dzevad Lojos; right?

8 A. I didn't know these directors. I heard about Dzevad Lojo, but I

9 don't know what he had been director of. I remember faces much better

10 than names. I don't remember them particularly.

11 Q. Those Muslim detainees that you saw in the yard, they didn't wear

12 uniforms, military uniforms; they were just civilian people, right?

13 A. Well, there were all sorts. They mostly wore civilian clothes,

14 but some wore uniforms, not complete uniforms but army trousers.

15 Q. Do you know Mustafa Kuloglija, a teacher, like you?

16 A. I can't remember. Maybe I could remember the face, but not the

17 name.

18 Q. Do you know Professor Kemal Dzelilovic, also a colleague of yours?

19 A. I can't remember.

20 Q. You mentioned your daughter's birthday, 15 June 1992, so you

21 probably remember this time in the KP Dom quite well; right?

22 A. It's been ten years now, so I certainly can't remember some

23 things, perhaps something that doesn't have to do with dates.

24 Q. Around the birthday of your daughter, while you were in the KP

25 Dom, Muslim detainees were mistreated, beaten, and even killed; right?

Page 6050

1 A. While I was down there, I never heard anything like that.

2 Q. You saw detainees, Muslim detainees, return to their rooms all

3 beaten up. You saw them in the yard, didn't you?

4 A. I said that I saw them taking walks in the yard. I saw them at

5 lunch. But I did not say that I saw them returning to their rooms beaten

6 up, because I did not see any such thing, and I cannot say something that

7 I did not see.

8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac was the temporary warden in the KP Dom while you

9 were there; right?

10 A. For me, Mico was the director of the Drina Economic Unit, because

11 he exclusively -- actually, everything he did there was with the heads of

12 the economic unit, to get the unit going and to protect property. That's

13 what he was doing while I was there.

14 Q. Did you hear that in July Mr. Krnojelac was officially appointed

15 warden by the Ministry of Justice?

16 A. I heard about that towards the end, just before I left the KP Dom.

17 Q. We talked about -- in the beginning of your cross-examination we

18 talked about Mr. Tesevic. Mr. Tesevic was the pre-war warden; right?

19 A. Yes, he was warden of the KP Dom.

20 Q. And as such, he was, of course, also the head of the Drina

21 Economic Unit; right? He was above everyone else in the KP Dom; right?

22 A. Tesevic was not director of the economic unit of Drina. He was

23 only warden. Whereas the director of the Drina Economic Unit was, as far

24 as I can remember, Josip Simovic.

25 Q. But this director, Josip Simovic was subordinated to Mr. Tesevic

Page 6051

1 as the warden; right?

2 A. Well, according to that structure, yes. According to that

3 structure, the warden is above everyone else.

4 Q. Yes. And during your time in the KP Dom in 1992, Mr. Krnojelac

5 was the warden, wasn't he? There was no one else above him.

6 A. It is correct that Krnojelac was the warden; however, at the same

7 time, he was director of the Drina Economic Unit. Or rather, I know that

8 he was appointed there only in order to protect the facilities and to get

9 them repaired.

10 Q. When you described the function of the KP Dom before the war and

11 the work of the warden, the then-warden, you said that Mr. Tesevic, or the

12 then-warden, did not interfere in the correction officers' unit; right?

13 That's what you said.

14 A. Yes. Yes. I said that everything that had to do with the

15 convicts - what they would do within the KP Dom, when they would be

16 allowed leave to go home, whatever - all of that was done by the

17 rehabilitation officers, and that was approved by the head of the

18 rehabilitation officers' service.

19 Q. It all was a long-term practice and it all functioned well; right?

20 A. Well, that's the way it was while I was down there. It was

21 probably that way before too.

22 Q. Because everybody who worked there in this correction office knew

23 what to do; right?

24 A. Well, that was their job.

25 Q. And the warden didn't have to get involved in the day-to-day

Page 6052

1 business because there was no need; right?

2 A. I don't know about there being no need or not being no need [as

3 interpreted]; I just know what happened in practice.

4 Q. And you mentioned that Aco Zecevic was working there at that time

5 before the war; right?

6 A. Before the war, yes, yes. He was a rehabilitation officer before

7 the war.

8 Q. And the correct name -- Aco is obviously a nickname. Is his name

9 Aleksije?

10 A. I think it is Aleksije.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this is the person P3, number

12 44.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


15 Q. And Mr. Todovic was also working in this section, didn't he?

16 A. Mr. Todovic worked in that section before the war. He was the

17 clerk for in-house records. That's what I did after 1996.

18 Q. And Mr. Todovic, before the war, did also assign work duties to

19 convicts; right? He was involved in that as well.

20 A. There was a work assignment clerk who made these assignments for

21 work. That was a different man. I don't know. I worked in the school,

22 so we worked only in the afternoon. And I know how things were done after

23 the war, and also I know that before the war things were done that way

24 too.

25 Q. But during the war, when suddenly there were only -- or mostly the

Page 6053













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6054

1 detainees that were not convicted, it was all different, right; it was not

2 the usual business. Regulations had to be made for this new situation;

3 right?

4 A. I don't know. I don't know about these administrative and legal

5 matters. I'm not very knowledgeable about such things.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

7 show the witness the Prosecution Exhibit P3.

8 Q. And I would like you to have a look at the line 44 in this rather

9 lengthy document, sir. Number 44, the line 44.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Sir, you mentioned during your testimony that Mr. Zecevic actually

12 did what he did before the war. He was the one assigning detainees for

13 work duties or get involved in this? That's what you said during --

14 A. I don't know what you mean by "detainees." He was in charge of

15 the convicts who were there from the pre-war days, the eight, nine of

16 them. I don't know whether you were referring to the military and Muslim

17 detainees, people who were in detention, while he was in charge of the

18 persons who were serving their sentences that were passed before the war,

19 the pre-war convicts.

20 Q. So it was Mr. Zecevic who assigned convicts to help you, for

21 instance, in your tasks, right?

22 A. No. He's the one who assigned persons. If I required anyone for

23 anything outside the compound, for something to be done there, then

24 Aleksije Zecevic had to sign this for me, because none of the detainees

25 were allowed to leave the compound without the signature of the

Page 6055

1 rehabilitation officer or the head of the rehabilitation officer's

2 service, and in case it was Mr. Zecevic.

3 Q. And now look at the dates when he worked in the KP Dom, and you

4 see here the 25th of April, 1992 to 4th May 1992, and there is then a huge

5 gap. Do you see that time gap?

6 A. I see that. However, I think that this time gap is impossible. I

7 can't remember after all this time, but Zecevic spent most of his time up

8 at the farm, because -- I can't remember the exact number, but there were

9 quite a few prisoners there from before the war. There were men and some

10 women. Whether there were any Muslims, I don't know, but down there there

11 were only those nine. And in the morning, he would drop in down there and

12 then he'd spend most of his time at the farm.

13 I don't know about this interruption. I can't remember that,

14 because I had permanent permission for those two convicts who worked for

15 me. He signed that for me because I needed someone every day for the

16 bakery, and then I used that permanent permit to go out with them. That's

17 why I can't remember this time gap, and whether it is accurate or not, I

18 can't say. I can't remember anything like that. Although I doubt it. As

19 far as I can remember, he was there all the time.

20 Q. In June and July, when you had any additional request in relation

21 to convicts, Serb convicts, you asked Mr. Todovic, right? He was in

22 charge of these people as well during this time, right?

23 A. No. Mr. Todovic had nothing to do with the convicts, and I never

24 asked him for anything because he was in charge of this other part of the

25 prison. He had nothing to do with the convicts, nothing.

Page 6056

1 Q. You said that some Muslim detainees helped you unload goods that

2 were delivered to the KP Dom, right?

3 A. Yes, in the warehouse. They helped me unload, unload things from

4 the Poly into the warehouse. They sometimes also helped me reorganise

5 goods inside.

6 Q. And --

7 A. But that was very short, very little.

8 Q. And it was then Mr. Todovic who decided who would go and help you,

9 right?

10 A. No. I never addressed Todovic. I would tell the guard in charge

11 of the compound, I would say, "Well, look, I need one, or two, or three

12 men." And there were always people who volunteered because they would get

13 cigarettes from me. They could light up. And if I had any reserve

14 cigarettes in my pocket, I'd give them my extra pack or something or an

15 extra tin or whatever. So there would always be volunteers. But I asked

16 the guard in charge of the compound. I never asked Todovic.

17 Q. You mentioned that you saw Mr. Todovic in the mornings at the

18 entrance with the duty guard, and you said that you never actually

19 addressed him. So you don't know what he actually did, right?

20 A. I didn't know. What I said was correct.

21 Q. You mentioned these morning coffees, and you said you had these

22 morning coffees with Mr. Krnojelac on the first floor. The first floor,

23 how do you count, ground floor and then first floor or ground floor is the

24 first floor?

25 A. The second floor. In the KP Dom, there is the first and the

Page 6057

1 second floor, and then on the second floor at the office there, that is

2 where we had coffee, on the second floor, that is.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

4 show the witness the floor plan 6/3.

5 Q. Witness, can you point out to us this room where you had the

6 coffee? The lower building is the administration building, just to help

7 you to orient yourself. It's seen from the street.

8 A. This one over here.

9 Q. That's the warden's office. Are we on the right -- it's the

10 warden's office. Oh, yes. Okay. You had the coffee in the warden's

11 office then?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you also have monthly meetings, management meetings? Are you

14 aware of that?

15 A. As far as I can remember, there were no such meetings. As far as

16 I can remember.

17 Q. And these meetings, these daily meetings, were they unofficial

18 coffee chattings or did they have any official character?

19 A. These were primarily working meetings. Agreement would be reached

20 in the morning as to what should be done during that day, what would be

21 possible, and at the same time, it was morning coffee and a working

22 meeting.

23 Q. And if I remember correctly, it was more or less working meetings

24 of the Drina units, right, from the participants?

25 A. Yes. The heads of the economic units within it.

Page 6058

1 Q. You do not know when Mr. Krnojelac had the meetings with the other

2 sections, right, Mr. Todovic, Mr. Rasevic? You don't know that, right?

3 A. I don't know about that. Whether he did and when, I don't know

4 about that.

5 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac was absent for a week, and you

6 actually said -- first you said that he was away in July. Do you recall

7 that?

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether my

10 learned friend interpreted what the witness said during his

11 examination-in-chief properly, but he said that he had been away for 10 or

12 15 days from the end of June, not in July he didn't say. So if she is

13 quoting that part of his examination-in-chief, she is misquoting it.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Is it there or the statement that you --

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, it's a quote.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Give us the page.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Ms. Dicklich is just checking it.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Page what?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Page 34 and it's line 11 to 16. That is the

21 entire quote and it starts with 11.

22 JUDGE HUNT: It says "June" there to start with.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. Let me just -- Your Honour, a little bit

24 higher. Mr. Vasic had asked him:

25 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Krnojelac was absent during

Page 6059

1 some period from the KP Dom while you worked as a

2 warehouse clerk?

3 And he said:

4 A. Yes. He was absent when I went on a trip that had

5 to do with procurement, and he was absent at the end

6 of July for 10, perhaps 15 days. I don't know how

7 long it was exactly, but I know it was longer than a

8 week.

9 And then Mr. Vasic said:

10 Q. Do you know why he was away in Belgrade in June?

11 It's actually Mr. Vasic who mentioned "Belgrade" and mentioned

12 "June."

13 JUDGE HUNT: That seems to be so, Mr. Vasic.

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it seems to me that in

15 the preceding paragraph that was quoted by my learned friend there must

16 have been a misinterpretation and that the witness said "June."

17 JUDGE HUNT: I mean why should the transcript be wrong? Could you

18 have been wrong?

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Your Honour, but today, at

20 least three or four times, I intervened in terms of mistakes in the

21 transcript.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you didn't on this occasion, did you? I mean

23 I'm not going to change something just because you may have made a

24 mistake. If you've got some document or his statement that he talks about

25 having been in July and not June or June and not July, then by all means,

Page 6060













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6061

1 show it. But I think that we'll have to rely upon the interpreters being

2 correct if they are not corrected at the time.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour, but we have

4 produced a document which is related to this official trip. However, I

5 hope that towards the end, the tape will be listened to once again so

6 there will be the possibility of checking with the original what the

7 witness actually said.

8 My learned friend said and read out that the witness said that

9 Milorad Krnojelac had been away for 10 or 15 days, and her question was

10 "seven days," actually, her original question.

11 JUDGE HUNT: I think we're really descending into very minute

12 problems. "June" and "July" I can understand the problem because it is an

13 important time, but let's just stick to the important things. Certainly

14 we'll ask for it to be checked against the original that is in the B/C/S

15 version overnight, but at the moment, I think that the Prosecution is

16 entitled to proceed upon an uncorrected transcript.

17 You go ahead, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


19 Q. Witness, you remember that Mr. Krnojelac was away to Belgrade in

20 relation to the injury of his son, but you do not know when he was away,

21 which month and which days, right?

22 A. I remember that that was the end of June or perhaps the beginning

23 of July, but at any rate, the end of June. And he was away for about

24 10 days or perhaps even 15 days.

25 Q. You were interviewed in the cafe -- by the Defence investigators

Page 6062

1 in the Cafe Gong, right?

2 A. I didn't hear the question. I'm sorry.

3 Q. You were interviewed in Cafe Gong by Defence investigators, right,

4 the Cafe Gong in the house of the Krnojelac family; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Mrs. Rada Sestovic-Krnojelac, a relative of Mr. Krnojelac, was

7 present; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did she approach you for the first time and ask you to testify, or

10 someone else from the Krnojelac family?

11 A. Not the Krnojelac family. Then a gentleman talked to me,

12 Mr. Milenko Dundjer. He's the person I gave a statement to. And

13 Mrs. Rada Krnojelac was present.

14 Q. But Mr. Milenko Dundjer didn't know you. The first contact was

15 made by someone else; right?

16 A. I can't remember exactly who called me, who asked me to come to

17 Gong a bit. And then I came and then I was told such-and-such things, and

18 then this gentleman was introduced to me, Mr. Dundjer. I knew Rada

19 superficially. And then the gentleman asked me and we talked. And then

20 after that, I gave an official statement which I signed and which you

21 probably have.

22 Q. Yes. And that you have; right? You have a copy.

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. You said that before the war you knew Mr. Krnojelac but you were

25 not friends, you were not close; right?

Page 6063

1 A. That's right. It's right that we were not close friends.

2 Q. And after the war you became closer; right?

3 A. No. No, we didn't. Everything remained the same as before.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Mr. Vasic?

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

8 Q. Sir, in response to a question by my learned friend, you spoke

9 about the hierarchy at the KP Dom and you said the warden was above

10 everyone else. To which period were you referring when you said this?

11 A. The period before the outbreak of hostilities, the period of

12 normal functioning of the KP Dom.

13 Q. Also in response to a question by my learned friend, you said that

14 you had seen Muslim detainees. You said they were walking about their

15 rooms.

16 A. I didn't say walking about their rooms. I said they were walking

17 in the courtyard, not in their rooms. I never entered their rooms. I

18 never saw what they looked like, and I couldn't have seen them walking

19 there.

20 Q. Were they walking together, all together, or in groups by rooms?

21 A. I already answered that. Sometimes they would walk one by one,

22 sometimes in smaller groups. I cannot remember exactly now. It was not

23 the same number always so that I could say that there were groups of 10 or

24 15. They were walking about, just as people walk in the streets.

25 Q. And my last question: How did you find out that Savo Todovic was

Page 6064

1 in charge of the military prison where Muslim detainees were detained

2 together with Serbs who were guilty of breaches of military discipline?

3 A. Well, I found out mainly from the procedures, from conversations I

4 overheard between guards, and I also found out from things that he himself

5 said.

6 Q. When you said "procedures," did you mean the conduct of Savo

7 Todovic?

8 A. Yes, that's what I meant. I meant from the way he acted.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

10 Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions in

11 re-examination.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You are now

13 free to leave.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honour.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the next Defence

18 witness is Mr. Risto Ivanovic.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. He's the last one on our list.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please make the solemn declaration in the

22 document that is being handed to you by the Court usher.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 6065

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

3 Mr. Bakrac.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Examined by Mr. Bakrac:

6 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. First of all, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that

9 we speak the same language, that other participants in these proceedings

10 speak other languages, so you should pause after my question to let the

11 interpreters interpret my question, and start answering only after a

12 pause. So when I ask you a question, please make a brief pause. Perhaps

13 it's not a bad idea for you to look at the screen, and when you see that

14 the typing has finished, you can start answering.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. The usher has helped us

16 and turned on the transcript on the witness' monitor.

17 Q. Please tell me your name, sir.

18 A. Risto Ivanovic.

19 Q. My question was brief, but even at the beginning you're not making

20 that pause I asked you for. So I'm asking you again: Please make a pause

21 after my question before answering. When were you born?

22 A. The 20th of November, 1950.

23 Q. Where?

24 A. Marsovici [phoen] Village, Foca municipality.

25 Q. These are all brief questions and the interpreters are catching up

Page 6066

1 for the time being, but if you continue answering so quickly, we'll have a

2 problem with interpretation. So please, I beg you, look at your monitor,

3 and when the typing has finished, start answering, not before.

4 JUDGE HUNT: A good try, Mr. Bakrac. I hope it works.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Please tell me, sir, about your marital status.

7 A. I'm married.

8 Q. Do you have any children?

9 A. Two boys.

10 Q. How old are they?

11 A. 26 and 21.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Look, sir, you really must pause. You are answering

13 as soon as you hear the question finish. I can tell. You really must

14 watch the screen, watch for the typing to finish, and only then answer the

15 question.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Can you tell us, sir, what kind of education you have?

18 A. I graduated from secondary school, and I also completed a course

19 for guards.

20 Q. Where did you graduate from secondary school?

21 A. In Foca.

22 Q. Did you serve in the army?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When and where?

25 A. In Kumanovo.

Page 6067













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6068

1 Q. Which year?

2 A. 1972, 1973.

3 Q. Have you ever been convicted or found guilty of a misdemeanour?

4 A. No, never.

5 Q. Tell me: What was your first job, and where?

6 A. On the 4th of January, 1974, I found my first job.

7 Q. Where?

8 A. The correctional and penal house, KP Dom.

9 Q. My questions are still brief. Let us give it another try.

10 Perhaps after my question you should count to 4 and then start answering.

11 Sir, on the 4th of January, 1974, you found a job at the KP Dom in

12 Foca; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What was the job?

15 A. I was an apprentice guard.

16 Q. Until which year did you continue working at the KP Dom?

17 A. Until 1996.

18 Q. Before the outbreak of military operations in Foca, were you still

19 working at the KP Dom in Foca?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Are you aware that just before the outbreak of hostilities in

22 Foca, people of Muslim ethnicity were arming themselves in town?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you see any ethnic Muslims who were armed in Foca?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 6069

1 Q. When was that? When did you see them?

2 A. It was on the 7th, when I was going to work.

3 Q. What time was it when you were going to work?

4 A. I set off at 5.30 a.m.

5 Q. You said on the 7th. Which month?

6 A. April.

7 Q. Which year?

8 A. 1992.

9 Q. Where did you notice these armed ethnic Muslims?

10 A. Not far from my flat in Topolje.

11 Q. Where were they coming from?

12 A. They were coming out of a restaurant not far from the KP Dom.

13 Q. How did you know they were Muslims?

14 A. I knew them. I knew those people, because that's where I lived.

15 Q. Who was the owner of that restaurant where they came from? Do you

16 know the owner?

17 A. His name was Pilav, but it was a Serbian restaurant taken out on a

18 lease.

19 Q. If I understood you correctly, that restaurant was owned by a Serb

20 who had leased it to a --

21 A. Muslim.

22 Q. Please let me finish my question, and you will answer it when I

23 finish.

24 So the restaurant was run by a Muslim, but he didn't own the

25 building, the restaurant?

Page 6070

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. What was his name?

3 A. His last name was Pilav, and I don't know his first name.

4 Q. On the 7th, when you were going to work, did you notice roadblocks

5 anywhere in town?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where?

8 A. There were roadblocks in front of the bridge on both sides of the

9 KP Dom.

10 Q. Do you know who put them up?

11 A. I know.

12 Q. Who was it?

13 A. The drivers working for Focatrans and the SDA.

14 Q. And still, you arrived at the KP Dom, to your work, on the 7th of

15 April; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you remember what happened on that 7th of April at the

18 KP Dom?

19 A. I remember.

20 Q. Can you tell us briefly what was going on?

21 A. When I came to work in the morning, I couldn't get out for four

22 days. Simply there was a group of convicts who had been convicted and

23 locked up before the war.

24 Q. Did all the prisoners from the KP Dom remain with you at the

25 KP Dom or something else happened?

Page 6071

1 A. One group left across the wall on Monday evening and another group

2 tried to escape on Tuesday morning, also across the wall and through the

3 gates.

4 Q. Did all the prisoners leave either across the wall or through the

5 gates?

6 A. No.

7 Q. How many stayed in the KP Dom?

8 A. Between 100 and 105 prisoners.

9 Q. When did the military operations in Foca begin?

10 A. The first rifles were heard on the 8th, in the morning.

11 Q. And you were at the KP Dom then?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You said you stayed at the KP Dom for four or, rather, four or

14 five days. Do you remember exactly from when to when?

15 A. From Tuesday morning until Friday evening.

16 Q. It would be very helpful if you could remember the dates.

17 A. From the 7th, in the morning, until the 10th, in the evening.

18 Q. And during all that time you were inside the KP Dom?

19 A. I was in the KP Dom together with the convicts and the staff of

20 the KP Dom.

21 Q. During that period, from the 7th to the 12th of April, was the

22 KP Dom shelled?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where did you hide?

25 A. In the warehouse below Room number 16.

Page 6072

1 Q. When you say "we," do you also mean the convicts or only the staff

2 who was there in the KP Dom?

3 A. The guards who happened to be there also hid down below in the

4 warehouse.

5 Q. What did happen? What happened then on the 10th of April?

6 A. Around 6.00 p.m. on the 10th of April, we agreed to leave the

7 KP Dom together with the prisoners and go our different ways.

8 Q. Where did those 105 prisoners go?

9 A. They went to the farm of the KP Dom.

10 Q. How did they get there?

11 A. They were transferred by small station-wagons of the KP Dom,

12 having been given guarantees by the army that they would not be shot at.

13 Q. When the prisoners were transferred to the farm, did you go with

14 them or did you go elsewhere?

15 A. I didn't go with them. I went in the direction of the village.

16 Q. And what is your village?

17 A. Josanica.

18 Q. How long did you spend in Josanica?

19 A. Two nights.

20 Q. That means from the 10th to the 12th of April; is that correct?

21 A. Yes. I went there to see my wife and children.

22 Q. And where were they?

23 A. They were with my sister in Celovina, above the town.

24 Q. Until what date did you stay in Celovina with your wife and

25 children?

Page 6073

1 A. From the 12th to the 18th.

2 Q. 18th of April, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where did you go on the 18th of April?

5 A. Escorted by the army, I went down to the town.

6 Q. When you say "escorted by the army," what do you mean?

7 A. The army escorted me to my apartment.

8 Q. Why did you go to your apartment?

9 A. I wanted to collect as much food as I could to take to my wife and

10 children.

11 Q. And did you manage to do that?

12 A. I picked up what food I could find. I took it up there together

13 with a neighbour, and I returned to the KP Dom.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note this was a mistake. "I was

15 asked to report back to the KP Dom."

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I just heard the interpreters complaining about the speed at which

18 you're speaking. You have a monitor in front of you. Please wait for the

19 text which is being typed out in front of you to finish, and when you see

20 it has finished, start answering.

21 It says in the transcript that you returned to the KP Dom. What

22 exactly did you say? You came from Celovina, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you sent food to your wife and children, and where did you

25 go? Please wait.

Page 6074













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6075

1 JUDGE HUNT: Hopefully the witness will settle down in the

2 morning. But at the moment, sir, you are causing terrible problems,

3 really terrible problems. You are looking at the monitor, but you don't

4 seem to obey the typing there. You must wait for the typing to finish;

5 otherwise, we lose part of your answer. It's very important for us to get

6 your answer. So please wait to make the answer so the interpreters take

7 it down properly and give us the translation.

8 I think we'll give it a break now. Hopefully it will be better in

9 the morning. 9.30 tomorrow.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day

12 of May, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.