Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6190

1 Wednesday, 16 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but since

10 yesterday until the end of working hours, we didn't know whether the

11 witnesses had arrived. We made a schedule, and I think it is my duty to

12 inform you of the sequence of witnesses as we will call them, for the

13 record. After this witness, our next witness will be Zoran Mijovic, after

14 him, Drago Vladicic, and the last in the line for this part of the trial

15 will be Milovan Dobrilovic. That is all, Your Honour. Thank you.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much for your assistance. I hope we

17 get through them all.

18 Do you think we will get through all of them, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think so.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. You proceed.



23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ivanovic.

Page 6191

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Ivanovic, we briefly spoke about the guard Radovan

3 Vukovic, and you said that this guard didn't beat or mistreat Muslim

4 detainees. This guard, did he have big feet, remarkably big feet?

5 A. I don't know whether he had big feet. I never saw Radovan beat

6 anyone, that's what I know.

7 Q. He wore trainers usually when he worked, right?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Yesterday we also spoke about detained doctors, and you had

10 mentioned Dr. Aziz Torlak, and if you look at the sheet of paper with the

11 names, there is also the Witness 111, right?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. Those two doctors were arrested and taken to the KP Dom in a very

14 early stage, right? Right in the beginning.

15 A. I saw both of them in April.

16 Q. For several days they were kept separate from the other Muslims,

17 detainees, were they not?

18 A. I cannot remember. They didn't come together, so they probably

19 were not in one room.

20 Q. There was a little sort of isolation cell on the ground floor of

21 the prisoners' building number 1, wasn't there?

22 A. There was never one in an isolation cell.

23 Q. I asked you if there was a little isolation cell on the ground

24 floor of the prisoners' quarters in building 1, actually near the

25 staircase and near Room 12. Is that correct?

Page 6192

1 A. There was no isolation cell. There was just a workshop for

2 plumbers.

3 Q. But the two doctors were kept there for a while, weren't they?

4 A. The doctors were never there, nor were any Muslims ever detained

5 there.

6 Q. Dr. 111 was exchanged, right?

7 A. I saw when everybody was leaving that he went also to be

8 exchanged.

9 Q. But Dr. Torlak, what happened to him?

10 A. I don't know Torlak. All I know is that he was taken away from

11 the compound.

12 Q. And you know that he is missing ever since, right?

13 A. He didn't come back.

14 Q. When was he taken away?

15 A. I can't remember.

16 Q. Yesterday you said that the staff and the detainees ate the same

17 food in the same canteen, same quality, same quantity. That's what you

18 said, right?

19 A. Exactly.

20 Q. The Muslim detainees ate first, right?

21 A. Muslim detainees ate first because they were a larger group; then

22 came Serb detainees, and only then old convicts.

23 Q. The Muslim detainees got their food in small bowls, right?

24 A. They got their food in large bowls, as long as there were large

25 bowls. Later they got smaller bowls, but the ladle that was used to serve

Page 6193

1 their meals was the same.

2 Q. The ladle, the size of the ladle, is not really the point. The

3 point that is important is how many ladles you get and how much these

4 ladles filled, right?

5 A. The ladle was of the same type. It was well filled.

6 Q. The Serb prisoners or detainees, you said they didn't eat

7 together? Those few convicts didn't eat together with the other Serb

8 prisoners?

9 A. Depended on where everybody was working. There were two

10 dining-rooms. In one of them Muslims ate; in the other Serbs ate.

11 Q. Before the Serbs ate and the staff members ate, fat, vegetables,

12 and meat was added to the cauldron; isn't that the truth?

13 A. No, that's not true.

14 Q. And the staff and the Serb prisoners, they could have second

15 helpings, but not the Muslims. The Muslims --

16 A. They could have. Muslims could have second helpings, and they got

17 them.

18 Q. The Muslims were even beaten up and locked in solitary confinement

19 when they tried to get a second helping; isn't that the truth?

20 A. No, that's not the truth. I know that they gave them two, three,

21 four helpings. I personally gave them that.

22 Q. But you did not distribute food, did you?

23 A. No. I wasn't that kind of person. But I could give somebody a

24 serving if the cook was away. He would let me do it.

25 Q. But the Muslims, the Muslim detainees did the serving, didn't

Page 6194

1 they? They served the food, not the guards.

2 A. In 1992 and 1993, the Muslims were there, but we could also serve

3 food when they didn't dare to, when they were too afraid of one particular

4 person. We would distribute food and take care that nothing was lost or

5 splashed about.

6 Q. Who was too afraid of one particular person? To whom do you

7 refer? Who was afraid of whom?

8 A. They were afraid of each other, lest anyone should say anything.

9 Q. I still don't understand that. Who was afraid? Were the Muslims

10 afraid of guards, or what?

11 A. They were afraid, but it was not a well-grounded fear. It

12 was -- they were just afraid. They thought somebody would hurt them,

13 whereas actually nobody wanted to.

14 Q. The Muslims -- you saw the Muslims and the Serb detainees, you saw

15 them go to the canteen, right? You even took these groups there.

16 A. We took those groups up to the dining-room. They would enter the

17 dining-room and we would stand near the kitchen, at a stall.

18 Q. And you saw that the Muslim detainees lost weight rapidly in the

19 first months of their detention, did you not?

20 A. They didn't. I already said they didn't. Some people lost a kilo

21 or two, others didn't, and some people even gained weight.

22 Q. Sir, have a look at the list in front of you, and there is the

23 person 182 in the upper part of the list. Do you see the number?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. You know this person, right?

Page 6195

1 A. I know him.

2 Q. He was in the KP Dom, right?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And you saw that he was very sick, right?

5 A. He was already very exhausted when he came to the Dom.

6 Q. And during his detention, he was actually dying from the

7 insufficient diet, wasn't he?

8 A. He wasn't dying, and he didn't die. He had food to eat. Whether

9 it was good enough for him, I don't know.

10 Q. And you gave him a blanket to help him, didn't you?

11 A. If there were extra blankets in the room, he could have taken one

12 himself. Nobody, nobody was in their way. They could have taken as many

13 blankets as they wanted to.

14 Q. You did not give him help? You did not give him a blanket?

15 A. He didn't ask me. If he had asked me and if there had been

16 blankets available, I would have given him one.

17 Q. You said that the detainees, the Muslim detainees received

18 everything they needed for personal hygiene. You said you even had to

19 force them to wash, right?

20 A. We didn't exactly force them. They requested it and we approved

21 it. And if a person is a conscientious one, he will want to wash himself.

22 Q. Yesterday you said that you actually had to force Muslims to wash

23 themselves so that they wouldn't stink. You said that.

24 A. We just told them. We would just tell them that they had to wash

25 if we were to go into their rooms. Every Muslim knows that he should do

Page 6196

1 it. If there hadn't been any water in the rooms and if there hadn't been

2 water in the cauldron, then where else could have they had water? They

3 would have had to go to the Drina River.

4 Q. Isn't it true that the Muslim detainees could bathe in the KP Dom

5 for the first time after three months of their detention because the ICRC

6 was coming? Isn't that the truth?

7 A. No.

8 Q. The Muslim detainees had to heat water in bottles that they placed

9 at the window so that they could get warmed by the sun. Isn't that the

10 truth?

11 A. I didn't see them. Where could they had gotten hold of bottles to

12 heat them?

13 Q. You said that the Muslim detainees could take walks in the yard,

14 right?

15 A. In our presence.

16 Q. Yes. However, this was only later in 1993, wasn't it, when

17 Mr. Sekulovic was there, the new warden, right?

18 A. There were walks in 1992, that's for certain.

19 Q. From the beginning? From April already?

20 A. I'm not sure about April, but there were walks in May. I'm sure

21 about that.

22 Q. When Mr. Sekulovic, the new warden, replaced Mr. Krnojelac in

23 summer 1993, the entire atmosphere in the KP Dom changed to the better;

24 isn't that right?

25 A. The food improved a little, and the Dom started to function,

Page 6197

1 that's all.

2 Q. And the attitude of the guards towards the Muslim detainees was

3 friendlier, wasn't it, when Mr. Sekulovic was there?

4 A. The guards did their job, the same job, and their conduct was the

5 same in 1992, 1993, 1994, as long as the Muslims were there.

6 Q. Yesterday you mentioned the medical care that was provided to the

7 Muslim detainees, and you mentioned that Dr. Cedo Dragovic who came to the

8 KP Dom, right?

9 A. Cedo Dragovic worked with them.

10 Q. You said that Cedo Dragovic deserted. What do you mean by that?

11 A. He ran away to Serbia.

12 Q. Why? Do you know why?

13 A. I haven't got a clue why he left.

14 Q. And when, when did he run away to Serbia? It was in the

15 beginning, right? Just after months being in the KP Dom, was it?

16 A. I don't know the day when he left. All I know is he found a job

17 in Serbia and later his father sent his things after him.

18 Q. You said that the doctors, the various doctors came twice a week.

19 How many hours did they stay when they came?

20 A. Doctors would come and would stay as long as it took them to do

21 their work.

22 Q. Can you tell us the hours? When did they come? When did they

23 leave?

24 A. I can't tell you about hours. I know that sometimes they came

25 before noon, sometimes around noon, and they wouldn't leave until they had

Page 6198













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6199

1 finished all the examinations.

2 Q. Did it never happen that too many detainees wanted to see the

3 doctor so that they couldn't attend to all of them? Did that never

4 happen?

5 A. I very much doubt that anything of the sort could have happened.

6 Q. Why do you doubt that?

7 A. Well, the doctor came to see anyone who was sick. When there were

8 no more sick people to see, the doctor would go home.

9 Q. You said that you went, you and your colleagues went from room to

10 room to see who wanted to see a doctor, and it never happened that there

11 were too many?

12 A. I didn't push anyone. We would just open the door to a room and

13 ask, "Who wants to be seen by a doctor?" Or other people would go and

14 bring me the list. I would take the list and take those people to the

15 doctor. If we hadn't made up the list, if we didn't have time, we just

16 opened the rooms and we would ask the people who were sick or who felt

17 sick to get up, and we would take them to the doctor.

18 Q. Enes Hadzic died in May or June 1992 when his ulcer erupted and he

19 didn't get the medical care necessary. That's correct, right?

20 A. I said yesterday that I hadn't seen Enes Hadzic at all. I heard

21 that he had died, but I never saw him.

22 Q. And you heard -- but you heard that he died of an erupted ulcer.

23 That's what you heard, didn't you?

24 A. I heard from other Muslims that he had bled to death and died.

25 Q. Do you know Edhem Bunda, the mental patient?

Page 6200

1 A. No.

2 Q. Are you aware that a schizophrenic was detained in the KP Dom who

3 mutilated himself?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You said yesterday that 500 to 530 Muslim detainees passed through

6 the KP Dom. Where did you check this number?

7 A. When we would make our report in the evenings, we, the guards, we

8 checked it that way.

9 Q. And so you kept track of the numbers throughout these two years,

10 two and a half years?

11 A. Two and a half years? I wouldn't say that, but I said that there

12 were, on the whole, about 500 to 530 Muslims in the Dom.

13 Q. Your assumption yesterday was that the Muslims were there because

14 they were found carrying weapons, because they had set out to fight.

15 That's what you said yesterday, right?

16 A. The Muslims were armed.

17 Q. We're not talking about the Muslims in general; we are talking

18 about the Muslim detainees in the KP Dom. You claim, if I understand you

19 correctly, that they were captured as combatants, right?

20 A. Those who brought them told us that they had found weapons on

21 them. The soldiers told us so. They would say, "We found a machine-gun

22 on him. We found a rifle." They told us that those people had shot at

23 them.

24 Q. That's the only reason, actually: that they are combatants, that

25 they shot at soldiers. That's actually the only reason you know why they

Page 6201

1 should be detained, right?

2 A. How could I have known that they would be detained? I thought the

3 war would last seven days, until the negotiations started, and later it

4 turned out the war went on for four years.

5 Q. Yes, but the detainees stayed, some of them even two and a half

6 years. They didn't stay a few days, right?

7 A. The army knows why they stayed on. We have no clue.

8 Q. If these detainees, the Muslim detainees, were civilians with no

9 weapons, it would not be proper to lock them up in the KP Dom, right? You

10 know that.

11 A. How would I know? I don't know which ones of them were armed.

12 The army would bring them to the compound and we would take them over and

13 work with them from then onwards.

14 Q. None of the detained Muslims at the KP Dom had ever been

15 convicted, right, those Muslims that came from April 1992 onwards, right?

16 A. I don't know. Nobody tried anyone in the KP Dom.

17 Q. Muslim convicts that you mentioned had been transferred to Tuzla,

18 right?

19 A. I said they had been taken away to Montenegro, and from Montenegro

20 they transferred them on, and I heard -- the story circulated, that is,

21 that they were taken over or handed over somewhere near Tuzla.

22 Q. In relation to the other Muslim detainees that came in April 1992,

23 no court ever ordered them to be detained, right? No court ordered this;

24 isn't that correct?

25 A. As far as I know, there were no courts in the whole of Bosnia and

Page 6202

1 Herzegovina, no trials, let alone in Foca.

2 Q. But there was a military court in Bileca, and the Serb prisoners

3 were taken there, right?

4 A. People found guilty of criminal acts were taken to Bileca.

5 Q. Such as Mr. Lazar Stojanovic, right?

6 A. When Stojanovic committed his crime, he was tried by the military

7 court in Bileca.

8 Q. Yes, but none of the detained Muslims were taken there to be tried

9 and returned sentenced, right?

10 A. No, not a single one.

11 Q. There was never any administrative board set up in the KP Dom to

12 review the detention of the Muslim detainees, right?

13 A. I don't know if that ever happened.

14 Q. There was never any determination that particular detainees,

15 Muslim detainees, were particularly dangerous, right?

16 A. We didn't classify people. Everybody was the same to us.

17 Q. And you never escorted any Muslim detainee to be taken to a court

18 or a police or a prosecutor office to review their detention, right?

19 A. No, I never took anyone to do that.

20 Q. You described earlier that several Serb prisoners were convicted,

21 and you even remembered and could tell us what kind of crime they had

22 committed, right?

23 A. I know the old soldiers who remained. I know several of them, why

24 they were there.

25 Q. You said "old soldiers." You probably meant the old convicts,

Page 6203

1 right?

2 A. Yes, of Serbian nationality.

3 Q. You never had any information about any Muslim detainee being

4 convicted of any specific crime or charged with any specific crime, right?

5 A. We had nothing.

6 Q. You yourself treated the Muslim detainees properly, right?

7 A. I treated the Muslim, the Serb, and the military prisoners the

8 same. They were all the same to me.

9 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, several Muslim detainees testified before this Court

10 and told us that you were one of the few guards who treated them

11 correctly, while others did not, and some of the witnesses even wanted to

12 protect your identity. They did not want to mention your name, so that

13 you wouldn't have any problems in Foca. So when you helped the Muslim

14 detainees, you indeed had to do that secretly, right?

15 A. No. I didn't have to do that secretly. I wasn't afraid of

16 anyone. It wasn't just me. Nobody ordered anybody that we were not

17 allowed to help Muslims.

18 Q. At that time the Muslims were considered the enemy; isn't that

19 correct?

20 A. Not to me. Even though they killed my brother, I never turned my

21 head away from them. I was always good to them.

22 Q. There's no doubt about that, Mr. Ivanovic. Even when your brother

23 was killed, you stood in the yard and said loudly that the Muslims were

24 not to be blamed; isn't that correct? You did that.

25 A. I said that they are not to blame, as far as I'm concerned,

Page 6204

1 because my brother was killed.

2 Q. So you personally did not see the Muslim detainees as enemies, but

3 in general, in Foca and among your colleagues, the Muslims were the

4 enemies, right? That's natural to consider the other warring faction an

5 enemy.

6 A. I don't know who thinks what, but I'm convinced that within KP

7 Dom, nobody ever persecuted Muslims, beat them, or mistreated them. What

8 happened outside Dom, we guards don't know that.

9 Q. No guard was ever punished for having mistreated detainees, right?

10 A. No, nobody was ever punished, and I think that there was no

11 justification for anyone to be punished.

12 Q. Not even Burilo was punished or disciplined ever?

13 A. I never saw Burilo beat anybody, and I don't know whether anybody

14 ever punished him.

15 Q. You were interviewed by two investigators of the Defence, right?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you not interviewed by Defence investigators in the Cafe Gong

18 in February 2001?

19 A. Well, the lawyer came and he took my statement, and the person who

20 noted down the statement.

21 Q. And it took place in the Cafe Gong, right, in Mr. Krnojelac'

22 house?

23 A. I don't know what the owner's name is. I was in the cafe. I

24 don't know where Milorad was.

25 Q. You don't know that it was Mr. Milorad Krnojelac' house, where

Page 6205













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6206

1 Cafe Gong is?

2 A. I know that Milorad was living in an apartment, and I don't know

3 who the house belongs to.

4 Q. Was it the apartment of Dr. Sosevic, your former colleague in the

5 KP Dom? Causevic, probably, I pronounced it --

6 A. I don't know. I know Dr. Causevic, but I don't know in whose

7 apartment Miroslav [as interpreted] was.

8 Q. One of the -- you mentioned the lawyer, the lawyer that was

9 present, who was present during the interview, and the other person

10 present was Ms. Rada Sestovic-Krnojelac, right, a relative of the accused?

11 A. I know that Rada Sestovic-Krnojelac is the wife of our chief from

12 KP Dom. She works in SUP. I don't know, actually, what firm she works

13 in. She is the wife of Momo Krnojelac, and he is my colleague.

14 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, you did not volunteer to testify, right? It was not

15 your particular wish to come here, right?

16 A. This is my explicit wish to come, if the Court believes me to tell

17 the truth, to prove the real truth.

18 Q. Did you approach the lawyer, who came from Belgrade, to get

19 interviewed?

20 A. I said that at any time I am willing to sign, and even if there

21 had been a warrant of arrest for me, I would myself turn myself in that

22 very minute. I've always said that.

23 Q. That's not actually an answer to my question. It was a member of

24 the Krnojelac family who approached you and asked you to give a statement,

25 right? You did not volunteer.

Page 6207

1 A. I said that I would voluntarily come to defend Krnojelac, and they

2 heard that. They asked me do I want to, and I said, yes, I do.

3 Q. So you came here to help Mr. Krnojelac, right?

4 A. I came to help KP Dom and Krnojelac to point out what his duties

5 were, what his work consisted of.

6 Q. You feel some sympathy with the predicament Mr. Krnojelac is now

7 in, right?

8 A. It's hard for me because the man was fair regarding Muslims. He

9 didn't have anything to do with the Muslims. I sympathise.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: These are the questions that the Prosecution

11 have, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Mr. Bakrac?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I have just a

14 couple of questions

15 Re-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ivanovic, yesterday when the

17 cross-examination started by my learned colleague, she asked you, and this

18 was also the topic during the examination-in-chief, that around the 10th

19 of April when you were at KP Dom, certain convicts were escaping, running

20 over the wall, and that the gates were opened. Could you please tell us

21 whether the guards at that time and the management comprised both Serbs

22 and Muslims, or whether they were just Serbs?

23 A. They were both Serbs and Muslims there. Mitar Rasevic was our

24 chief. Alija Berberkic was the deputy. Milutin Tijanic was the head of

25 re-education. There were us guards. There were Muslims.

Page 6208

1 Q. So it was a joint decision by the management not to shoot, and

2 also the deputy warden was Berberkic?

3 A. Alija, yes. And we were all armed, both Muslims and Serbs, in

4 order to defend the Dom, but we were not able to.

5 Q. Could you please tell us the deputy warden, Berberkic, is he a

6 Muslim?

7 A. Yes, he's a Muslim, and he went to his house, to Josanica,

8 together with me.

9 Q. Please, I would also ask you to make a pause, and my colleague

10 Vasic will give you a sign when you are to start answering.

11 Yesterday my colleague asked you the following: "Mr. Tesovic came

12 back to Foca in April, isn't that right?" And you responded "yes." I

13 would like to show you Exhibit 513 where it says that, in line 73,

14 Radojica Tesovic arrived.

15 I apologise, there's been a mistake in the transcript. It's not

16 Exhibit 513, but it's the Prosecution Exhibit P3 where it states that

17 Radojica Tesovic arrived at KP Dom on the 8th of May, 1992. Do you allow

18 for the possibility that Radojica Tesovic perhaps came back in May and not

19 in April, as you had stated?

20 A. Radojica Tesovic came back to the farm then. I was thinking about

21 Foca, but he didn't actually come to the Dom. He came back to the farm

22 with the guards who were there that night.

23 Q. So you know that is when he arrived. You're not sure whether he

24 came in April?

25 A. He didn't come to the Dom. I heard back that he had come back to

Page 6209

1 Foca.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Please, sir, just watch --

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Just watch Mr. Vasic there. Do not answer the

5 question until you see Mr. Vasic to the left of counsel who is now

6 examining you give you a sign that you can start your answer. You are

7 making it very difficult for the interpreters.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, you said that your brother was killed in May. Can

10 you please tell us which year that was?

11 A. 15th of May, 1992.

12 Q. You said that the room where you could make coffee was small and

13 that was where coffee was made and then taken to the offices. Could you

14 please tell me: Do you remember whether the floor -- whether there was a

15 cafeteria on the first floor of the administration building, or upstairs,

16 and do you know if there was a cafeteria there?

17 A. There was a cafeteria upstairs between the second and third

18 floors. There was the ground floor, toilet floor, a cafe, and then

19 another floor. That's what it was like. The sketch that confused me

20 yesterday, the sketch, that was the ground floor, the stairs, and then

21 upstairs. There are seven offices on the first and the second floor, and

22 that's where Savo was on guard. The sketch, where the stairs are.

23 Q. In order so that the sketch doesn't confuse you, I won't show you

24 the sketch, but I will try to get you to explain it to us. Are the stairs

25 on the right side of the administrative building? So when you go to the

Page 6210

1 right side of the administrative building, are the stairs at the

2 beginning, in the middle, or right at the end of the building?

3 A. They're on the ground floor, at the end, and then as we climb up,

4 there's the first floor. The stairs go through the middle. On one side

5 there are six offices. On the other side there are six offices. And then

6 there is a cafe, and then also upstairs there are six offices on one

7 side. On the other side, that's where the warden was. And then another

8 floor where Savo was, it was the same thing. And then you would on that

9 side enter the canteen and the store, but then from this other side there

10 was no entrance.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Try and speak a little bit more slowly, sir. You are

12 making it almost impossible for the interpreters to keep up with you.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You heard His Honour, so please slow down. So if we understood

15 you properly, from the staircase to the left, there were six offices, and

16 then from the staircase to the right, there were six offices.

17 A. On the first floor.

18 Q. And then on the second floor?

19 A. The same.

20 Q. The cafeteria?

21 A. In the middle.

22 Q. In the middle, between which floors?

23 A. Well, we say it's between the second and the third floor, so it's

24 between -- then there's actually the ground floor, so it's actually

25 between the first and the second floors.

Page 6211

1 Q. You stated that you know that a certain number of persons went to

2 work on Mr. Krnojelac's house. Did you talk to them when they came back?

3 A. I knew Telo, his son. Also there was Zahid. He was a plumber.

4 And there were two or three more people. When Telo would come, and he was

5 in charge of them, I would ask him, "Telo, what is going on?" And he

6 would say, "Dear brother, it couldn't be better." He would say that to

7 me. He would tell all the guards things couldn't be better the way they

8 were treating us there.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. The Defence

10 has no more questions.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You are now

12 free to leave.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you make the solemn declaration in the

16 document that is being shown to you by the Court usher.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

22 Mr. Vasic.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

25 Q. Good day, sir. Could you please tell us your name.

Page 6212













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6213

1 A. Yes. My name is Zoran Mijovic.

2 Q. Sir, first I would like to ask you, in view of the fact that we

3 speak the same language, to pause after my question, before you start your

4 answer, so that the interpreters could translate first the question and

5 then your answer. Perhaps it would be best on the screen in front of you

6 for you to follow the cursor. When the cursor stops, that means that the

7 question has been translated and that then you can start with your

8 answer.

9 Sir, could you please tell us the day, month, and the year of your

10 birth.

11 A. I was born on the 16th of June, 1951.

12 Q. Where were you born?

13 A. In the village of Pejkovic, municipality of Foca.

14 Q. Where did you go to primary school?

15 A. In the village of Pejkovic.

16 Q. Did you complete all eight grades of primary school in the village

17 of Pejkovic?

18 A. Potok, in Foca.

19 Q. After you completed your primary school, where did you go to

20 secondary school, and which school did you go to?

21 A. In Sarajevo, the high school for internal affairs.

22 Q. Are you married?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you have children?

25 A. Yes, two: a son and a daughter.

Page 6214

1 Q. When you completed school, could you please tell us when and where

2 you got your first job?

3 A. I started working at the KP Dom in Foca in 1972.

4 Q. Until when did you work at KP Dom in Foca?

5 A. I worked there until the 31st of March, 1991.

6 Q. Why did you stop working at the KP Dom in Foca on the 31st of May,

7 1991?

8 THE INTERPRETER: 31st of March. Interpreter's correction.

9 A. At my request, I submitted a request for retirement. I put in for

10 retirement and it was approved.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Could you please tell me whether you are familiar with the

13 structure at KP Dom at the time of your retirement?

14 A. When I started working -- or when people started -- when people

15 were employed at KP Dom, it was the general policy to have 50 per cent

16 Serbs and 50 per cent Muslims, to have that percentage make up the work

17 force at KP Dom.

18 Q. Before you retired, did the Economic Unit Drina function at the KP

19 Dom?

20 A. Yes, the economic unit did function, yes. Yes, the Economic Unit

21 Drina did function, and its purpose was to employ people who were serving

22 their sentences. The economic unit had several work units, and these work

23 units each had their own heads, their own bosses.

24 Q. Who headed the Drina Economic Unit at the time when you worked at

25 the KP Dom?

Page 6215

1 A. The director of Drina Economic Unit, who was Miljenko Simovic,

2 sorry, that was when I came to work there.

3 Q. In 1992 were you living in Foca?

4 A. I lived in Foca in a socially owned apartment owned by the work

5 organisation of the KP Dom. It was their property.

6 Q. You said it was the property of the KP Dom, your apartment. Had

7 it been given to you to use?

8 A. Yes. I was allocated this apartment officially 15 years

9 previously.

10 Q. In which part of Foca town was your apartment?

11 A. It is on the way from downtown towards the KP Dom and the

12 hospital.

13 Q. Does this neighbourhood have a particular name?

14 A. It's called Donje Polje, this neighbourhood where I lived.

15 Q. In April 1992 was there any inter-ethnic tension in Foca?

16 A. Yes, there was tension. Both ethnic groups started to organise

17 themselves.

18 Q. The neighbourhood where you lived, what was its ethnic

19 composition?

20 A. According to the 1991 census, that part of the town had 72 per

21 cent Muslim inhabitants and 28 per cent Serb inhabitants. That area

22 contains mostly private residences, and most of them are owned by Muslims.

23 Q. In April 1992, in terms of those tensions, have you -- did you

24 notice anything in particular going on around you in your neighbourhood?

25 A. Yes. People organised themselves, as I said, and during the night

Page 6216

1 you couldn't enter some alleys because there were guard posts organised

2 there in those alleys forking off the main street.

3 Q. What would those guards do if you, a Serb, wanted to visit one of

4 the houses in those alleys?

5 A. Since I lived near the main street, I didn't have to go visit many

6 other places, but other people who wanted to, he told me that they had to

7 show their IDs, and then they would be escorted to the house they wanted

8 to visit.

9 Q. These guards you mentioned, were they armed?

10 A. Not in the beginning, but when the sovereignty of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina was about to be proclaimed on the 1st of April, then

12 they started putting up roadblocks and you could notice armed individuals

13 guarding those alleys, side streets.

14 Q. How long did you stay in Foca with your family?

15 A. On the 2nd or 3rd of April, 1992, I drove my family away to the

16 village where I was born, Pejkovici, and if the military operations

17 escalated, my plan was to go across the border into Montenegro which was

18 not far away.

19 Q. Did you stay with your family, and until when?

20 A. I stayed with my family until the 23rd of April that same year,

21 and on that date I went back to lock up my apartment where I found the

22 entrance door demolished, everything inside was looted and taken away, and

23 I noticed roadblocks around manned by Green Berets.

24 Q. You said your apartment had been demolished. Were your

25 belongings, including clothing, also destroyed?

Page 6217

1 A. Yes. My clothing, my bed linen, was either destroyed or taken

2 away, and probably they were needed for the makeshift hospital which had

3 been organised in the vicinity.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the last sentence.

5 JUDGE HUNT: The interpreter did not hear the last sentence.

6 A. Also food was needed.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You mentioned a hospital that was organised for the wounded. Who

9 set it up?

10 A. I don't know that because I wasn't there when it was done. It was

11 in the neighbouring building. We had to turn over all the things that we

12 did not need very much so that people had something to put on.

13 Q. After your return to Foca, were you mobilised?

14 A. The summons arrived as we were returning. All men who were fit

15 for military service and liable for military service should report to the

16 secondary school centre in order to be assigned to various army units.

17 Q. Did you report, and where were you assigned?

18 A. I did report on the very same day when I returned on the 23rd,

19 because that was my duty, and I was assigned to an army unit based in the

20 part of town where I lived.

21 Q. From this unit were you later transferred to another place and

22 were given a military assignment?

23 A. Since I was retired, around the 7th of May the army command

24 assigned me to work as security at the KP Dom, the correctional and penal

25 facility.

Page 6218

1 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, to whom did you report?

2 A. When I arrived at the KP Dom, I reported to Mitar Rasevic, because

3 it was he who was in charge of that service.

4 Q. What job did Mitar Rasevic give you when you reported to him?

5 A. When I reported to him, he assigned me to perform duties of

6 external, that is, outside security for the KP Dom, me being a retired

7 person.

8 Q. Can you explain to us what exactly it means, external or outside

9 security?

10 A. In order for the KP Dom to be able to function, it has to have two

11 security services. Internal security means the security of people who are

12 inside the buildings of the KP Dom, whereas external security is security

13 against escapes from the KP Dom and against entry of unauthorised aliens

14 into the KP Dom.

15 Q. Could you please tell me where your guard post was.

16 A. I stood outside the entrance to the Dom, providing security for

17 the entire length of the building, facing that side of the Dom, facing the

18 road from the town to the hospital.

19 Q. So your guard post was outside the buildings of the KP Dom; it was

20 outdoors?

21 A. My work post was outside the building. It was in the street going

22 along the KP Dom.

23 Q. Was security provided in shifts on this particular post you're

24 talking about?

25 A. The security performed their duties in shifts, in 12-hour shifts,

Page 6219













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6220

1 from 6.00 to 6.00, and the next day you would work from 6.00 p.m. to 6.00

2 a.m.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Your Honours, just one thing. Page 26, line 23, after a number

5 6.00, we should insert "p.m.," because the first shift was presumably from

6 6.00 a.m. to 6.00 p.m.

7 JUDGE HUNT: It might be just as well if you clear that up with

8 the witness. If he means that, let's hear him say it.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Sir, be so kind as to tell us again from when to when a shift

11 lasted on your particular guard post.

12 A. The shift lasted from 6.00 a.m. until 6.00 p.m. That was the day

13 shift.

14 Q. And what about the night shift?

15 A. After midnight, which means in the evening, from 6.00 p.m. to 6.00

16 a.m.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. Twenty-four hours

18 later, not after midnight.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You said "after 24 hours." What does that mean? Twenty-four

21 hours of what?

22 A. We had time to rest. We worked in shifts, and between shifts we

23 were given time to rest. That rest lasted 24 hours.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Can I just see whether I have correctly interpreted?

25 Let's take a concrete example. On Monday he works from 6.00 a.m. to 6.00

Page 6221

1 p.m., and then on Tuesday night at 6.00 p.m. he starts and goes through

2 until Wednesday 6.00 a.m.? Is that what he's saying? Perhaps you can get

3 him to agree with what I've said so that we can get it correct on the

4 record, Mr. Vasic.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Sir, let's assume that you started your shift at 6.00 a.m. on a

7 Monday. When would you finish that shift?

8 A. If I started on a Monday at 6.00 a.m., I would finish that same

9 day at 6.00 p.m. My next shift would then begin on Tuesday at 6.00 p.m.,

10 and last until 6.00 a.m. Wednesday morning.

11 Q. Thank you. How many people stood guard in one shift on a single

12 guard post?

13 A. During the day there was one guard, and then during the next

14 shift, that is, the night shift, there would be two guards standing guard

15 together.

16 Q. What was your assignment during the guard you stood at night on

17 this guard post?

18 A. The night shift had the task of preventing access to the KP Dom

19 from the side where vehicles stopped and preventing escape from the

20 compound of the KP Dom.

21 Q. Continue, please.

22 A. Unless somebody came with special instructions.

23 Q. Those special instructions, would they be from the military

24 command?

25 A. Those instructions would be from the military command.

Page 6222

1 Q. While you stood guard on this guard post during nights, did you

2 ever see a vehicle stop in front of the entrance to the KP Dom?

3 A. When I was on duty, no vehicle ever stopped in that area leading

4 up to the KP Dom.

5 Q. Tell me, please, what kind of uniform did you wear while you were

6 standing guard?

7 A. I wore my own civilian clothes because I had no uniform, being a

8 retiree, but I had been issued a military uniform.

9 Q. You said you wore civilian clothes. Were you armed?

10 A. I was in civilian uniform, but I was armed with a rifle.

11 Q. How long, that is, until what time did you work in the external

12 security service of the KP Dom?

13 A. In the middle of June I left the KP Dom and was reassigned by the

14 command to the farm of the KP Dom.

15 Q. You said in the middle of June.

16 A. I'm sorry, in the middle of July.

17 Q. Do you know at whose request or demand you were transferred to the

18 farm?

19 A. I know because there was Novica Mojovic there, and it was at his

20 request that I was transferred to the farm.

21 Q. What was Novica Mojovic's position then at the farm?

22 A. Novica Mojovic was in charge of supervising the farm. He was the

23 supervisor of that work unit.

24 Q. Thank you, sir.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have a great

Page 6223

1 view of the clock, but I think it's about 11.00.

2 JUDGE HUNT: You certainly don't have a very clear view, Mr. Vasic

3 if that's what you say, but it's close enough. We'll adjourn until 11.30.

4 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Just before we went on our break, you said that in mid-July 1992

9 you moved to the farm from your post in external security, and you said

10 that the request for that was made by Mr. Mojovic. Could you please tell

11 us to whom Mr. Mojovic directed this request for you to be relieved of

12 your hitherto duties and to transfer to the farm?

13 A. Mr. Mojovic sent the request to the military command which

14 approved his request, and I moved to the farm.

15 Q. Now we will go back to the period while you were still working on

16 external security. You said that you worked there from May 7th, 1992,

17 until the 16th of July, 1992, in shifts. Was there a period between May

18 and July during which you were absent from work due to some special

19 circumstances?

20 A. Yes. There was a period I was approved to go on leave in order to

21 visit my parents in the country to work -- help them with their work since

22 they had two cows, and I was away for five days.

23 Q. Who approved your leave?

24 A. The leave was approved by Mitar Rasevic.

25 Q. Do you remember when you went on leave?

Page 6224

1 A. I went on leave one day before St. Vitus day or after, so I'm not

2 sure exactly, but I think it was -- or it was probably at the end of June.

3 Q. While you worked on external security, did you enter the

4 prisoners' compound?

5 A. I entered the prisoners' compound when I worked in the first shift

6 from 6.00 a.m. to 6.00 p.m. to have breakfast and lunch.

7 Q. Did you go into the compound during your night shift?

8 A. We did not go into the compound during the night shift because we

9 had sandwiches with us.

10 Q. So you only entered the prisoners' compound only in order to have

11 a meal, a hot meal?

12 A. Yes, that was the only reason we entered the compound, in order to

13 have a hot meal.

14 Q. Where did you eat when you ate at KP Dom?

15 A. We ate in the building we called the convicts' kitchen. That

16 facility had two dining-rooms. Between the dining-rooms there was the

17 kitchen.

18 Q. Did the detainees also eat there?

19 A. Yes, the detainees also ate there, except for the fact that we

20 used one dining-room and they used the other.

21 Q. Do you know how the food was prepared for you and for the

22 detainees?

23 A. I know that when we came to eat there was one cauldron, and we

24 were given the same food.

25 Q. Did you see how much food was given to the detainees and how much

Page 6225

1 was given to you? Did you see whether there was any difference in the

2 portions?

3 A. We would usually come after the detainees had already finished

4 their breakfast or lunch.

5 Q. Does that mean that you were not able to see how much food they

6 received?

7 A. No, I couldn't see that, because the food was given through -- the

8 food was given across the counter, so we didn't really have access to the

9 other side.

10 Q. Could you tell us what the situation was with bread that you

11 received for your meals?

12 A. There was very little bread at that time. We received very small

13 pieces, because there was a shortage of bread.

14 Q. In the period while you were eating or having your meals at KP

15 Dom, did you lose weight?

16 A. Yes. I lost about five or six kilogrammes.

17 Q. You told us that you stood guard during the day or at night,

18 depending on which shift you were in. During your shift, did you see

19 whether anybody entered the KP Dom at night?

20 A. During my shift, during the night shift, no person ever entered

21 the premises of the KP Dom.

22 Q. You've already told us that during your night shift, vehicles did

23 not stop in front of the KP Dom, nor did they pass in front of the KP

24 Dom. During your night shift, did you see if a vehicle, a red Zastava

25 Poly vehicle, passed in front of the KP Dom?

Page 6226













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6227

1 A. I never noticed such a vehicle pass along the road in front of the

2 KP Dom.

3 Q. Did you notice a vehicle like this passing during your day shift?

4 A. During my day shift a red Poly would go to get supplies, and it

5 was driven by the warehouse person, Vlado [as interpreted] Divljan. He

6 would go to get supplies for the needs of the kitchen.

7 Q. The name is not all right. Could you please repeat the name of

8 the person who drove this Zastava Poly that you mentioned?

9 A. Lazo Divljan [Realtime transcript read in error "Blazo"].

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The name is not okay again. The

11 witness said Lazo, L-a-z-o, and the transcript says Blazo, B-l-a-z-o.

12 Thank you.

13 Q. Do you know who owned this red Zastava Poly vehicle that you just

14 talked about?

15 A. The question is not clear to me.

16 Q. You said that Mr. Lazo Divljan drove this vehicle in order to get

17 supplies for the kitchen. I'm asking you, who owned this vehicle? Who

18 was the owner of this vehicle? Which institution?

19 A. I remember very well before the war that this vehicle was bought

20 for the purposes of the farm warehouse and kitchen.

21 Q. Does that mean that this vehicle belonged to KP Dom?

22 A. Yes. At that time it belonged to the KP Dom.

23 Q. Do you know, while you were working on external security, where

24 this vehicle was parked when it was not being used?

25 A. When it was not in use, the vehicle was parked near the metal

Page 6228

1 shop.

2 Q. Do you know whether the exhaust on this vehicle was out of order?

3 A. I didn't notice any increased or greater noise with this vehicle,

4 and if it had been louder, probably the workmen at the metal shop would

5 have repaired it.

6 Q. While you were on your external security shifts, did you see

7 Muslim persons being brought into the KP Dom?

8 A. If they were brought in, they were usually brought by the military

9 police, and then they were taken out at the entrance to the KP Dom and

10 were taken to the compound. They were handed over at the entrance to the

11 KP Dom.

12 Q. Do you know at the time that you were working on external security

13 that some Muslim persons were released from the KP Dom?

14 A. Yes. I know because I personally knew a person; his name was Asim

15 Isanovic. He was a friend of my father's -- of my father-in-law.

16 Q. Did you talk to him after he was released?

17 A. I did, and he told me that he received permission from the

18 military command to leave the territory and to go to his brother's in Bar,

19 which is what he did. Bar in Montenegro.

20 Q. Did the military command release him from KP Dom?

21 A. He told me that he was released by the military command and that

22 he received from the military command permission to leave the territory of

23 the town.

24 Q. During your duties on external security, did you notice that

25 doctors from the hospital would come to the KP Dom?

Page 6229

1 A. Yes. I would see Dr. Cedo Dragovic, I think that was his name. I

2 saw him come to KP Dom on several occasions.

3 Q. While you were serving in external security, did you see Milorad

4 Krnojelac come to KP Dom?

5 A. When I was working on the 6.00 a.m. to 6.00 p.m. shift, I would.

6 I would see him come to work at 7.00 in the morning, and then he would

7 stay and work until 3.00 p.m. in the afternoon.

8 Q. Do you remember how he was dressed when you saw him?

9 A. Sometimes he was wearing civilian clothes, sometimes he would be

10 wearing a part of a uniform, an olive-grey army uniform part. Probably

11 because his -- this was probably because his house had burned down and

12 also probably his clothes had burned.

13 Q. On those occasions when you saw him, did he have weapons?

14 A. I never saw Milorad carrying weapons.

15 Q. You told us that you entered the compound in order to have your

16 meals. Did you have to pass on your way in through the room which was

17 used as a search room before the war and which was directly in front of

18 the metal doors which lead to the compound?

19 A. Yes, I passed through that room. That is the only way that you

20 can enter the compound of the KP Dom.

21 Q. Did you ever notice any blood traces on the walls or in that room?

22 A. No, I didn't notice that. I didn't notice any bloodstains on the

23 walls.

24 Q. Before you came to the KP Dom, did you know Milorad Krnojelac? I

25 mean before you came in 1992.

Page 6230

1 A. Yes, I knew Milorad Krnojelac because we were -- because there is

2 only 600 metres' distance between the place where I was born and the place

3 where he was born, and it's on the road from Foca to Niksic.

4 Q. What is that area called that you just mentioned?

5 A. The place where he was born is called Bunovi, and the place close

6 to that is called Suvi Bor.

7 Q. Did Milorad Krnojelac during May or June 1992 ask you to do him a

8 favour?

9 A. Yes. I can't remember exactly the day, but it was at the end of

10 May or the very beginning of June we met on the street in the town. He

11 asked me -- I mean, he requested if I could do him a favour. I said,

12 "What is it about?" And he told me that there is a friend of his, a

13 colleague of his, a woman, and another two Muslim people who I would need

14 to drive or take to the border at Scepan Polje. This woman, his

15 colleague, was called Desanka Bogdanovic. And the other two people, the

16 other two women, were called Mervana, and her mother, Hajrija Sabanovic.

17 Since Desanka lives in the building right across the street from

18 my building and we lived close by, so we knew one another. The other two

19 women also lived close by, so we knew one another in passing and we would

20 say hello when we met.

21 Q. Continue, please.

22 A. We agreed that I would do this favour for him. The only thing

23 that he needed to do was to provide his own vehicle and to fill it up with

24 petrol. We agreed to do this early in the morning because Muslims were

25 not allowed to leave the territory of the town of Foca.

Page 6231

1 In the morning at around 6.30, I arrived at Desanka's apartment

2 where I encountered Mr. Milorad. Everything was ready, and they were

3 saying their goodbyes. There was another one called Nedziba - I can't

4 remember her last name - and she was saying goodbye to these other three

5 women, these other three persons. I got into the car. Before that, they

6 had already gotten into the car and put all their things inside. And I

7 set out towards Montenegro.

8 Q. Could you please tell us whose car it was that you were driving on

9 that occasion?

10 A. The car was owned by -- in fact, it was a Yugo car, Zastava,

11 produced by Zastava.

12 Q. Do you remember what colour it was?

13 A. The car was red.

14 Q. Obviously the transcript does not reflect who the owner of the

15 vehicle was. Could you tell us again who owned the car that you drove on

16 that occasion?

17 A. It was owned by Milorad Krnojelac.

18 Q. Thank you. You said that after that you headed for Montenegro.

19 Which road did you take?

20 A. I took the Foca-Niksic road.

21 Q. On this road, did anything happen in particular just before you

22 set out?

23 A. The last six kilometres before the border with Montenegro, the

24 road was controlled by Green Berets, and five or ten days previously, one

25 Yugo car was destroyed in an ambush and four people were killed, a married

Page 6232

1 couple and two men.

2 Q. And did you succeed?

3 A. Yes. I reached Scepan Polje.

4 Q. Can you tell us: When you reached Scepan Polje, what happened

5 next?

6 A. When I arrived at Scepan Polje, on the left bank of the Tara river

7 I parked my car and left it there, and I got out of the car with the three

8 persons who I was driving. I crossed the bridge on foot and reached the

9 border crossing with Montenegro. When I reached the police post at the

10 border crossing, I asked the policemen whether they would allow

11 us -- or rather, whether they would allow two Muslim persons to cross the

12 border. They said yes, and they also said a bus was going to arrive soon,

13 a bus commuting between Podgorica and Scepan Polje.

14 I went back, again on foot, to my car. We all got into the car

15 and I drove them to the border crossing. The police did their job and

16 they made an entry in their log book that these persons have crossed the

17 border. I saw them off on that bus, saw to it that they were seated on

18 the bus, and said goodbye.

19 Q. Did you go back to Foca after that?

20 A. Then I had a drink with a policeman who worked there at that post,

21 because I knew them personally, and only after that I went back to Foca.

22 I met with Milorad, at the hotel where he [Realtime transcript read in

23 error "I"] was staying, and returned to him the car and the keys. He

24 asked me how I had fared on that trip, and he was very glad that I had

25 succeeded.

Page 6233













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6234

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the transcript says that

2 he met with Milorad at the hotel where he was staying, where he, the

3 witness, was staying. In fact, it is the hotel where Mr. Krnojelac was

4 staying. That's why I will have to ask this question again.

5 JUDGE HUNT: I suggest you do ask it again. That's the best way

6 of dealing with it.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Sir, where did you find Milorad Krnojelac when you wanted to

9 return to him the car and the keys upon your return from Scepan Polje?

10 A. I found him at the Zelengora Hotel, where he was staying, and

11 that's where I gave him back the keys.

12 Q. Can you tell me why you did this favour to Milorad Krnojelac?

13 A. I agreed to do this favour because we were almost from the same

14 place. We were born in the same area. We were neighbours, so to speak.

15 That's the kind of thing I would do for anyone.

16 Q. Let's go back to the time when you returned to the farm after the

17 16th of July, 1992. What kind of job did you do on the farm? What were

18 your duties?

19 A. Since the farm had taken over a part of the prisoners which were

20 not -- who were not a flee risk, those prisoners took care of hens, which

21 lay eggs, and pigs. My job was to supervise their work and see to it that

22 they did not go outside the perimeter of the farm, which was surrounded by

23 a wire fence, that they didn't steal any products from the farm and did

24 not enter into any sort of contact with civilian persons.

25 Q. You told us -- I apologise, you wanted to add something?

Page 6235

1 A. Also, my job was to see to it that civilians did not enter the

2 perimeter of the farm because that was forbidden, apart from the civilian

3 staff who worked there.

4 Q. When you say civilians, civilian persons, what do you mean?

5 A. I mean persons who are not on staff on the farm. In other words,

6 any civilians who are not authorised to enter the perimeter of the farm,

7 we referred to them as civilian persons.

8 Q. You told us that while you were serving in external security in

9 the KP Dom, you wore civilian clothes. What kind of clothes did you wear

10 working on the farm?

11 A. Novica Mojovic had procured us some sort of uniforms which were

12 not complete uniforms; it was combined clothing. It was more civilian

13 than it was a uniform.

14 Q. You mentioned convicted persons. Do you mean the persons who had

15 already been serving their sentences when the war broke out?

16 A. Yes. Those were the persons who had already been serving their

17 sentences at the KP Dom on the 8th of April, 1992. They were not able to

18 reach their destinations, and so they stayed on to serve their sentences,

19 and some of them were at the KP Dom itself, while a part of them were on

20 the farm.

21 Q. Were those persons originally from the Foca municipality?

22 A. Those convicts, none of them were from the Foca municipality.

23 Q. Can you remember any of their names?

24 A. I know that among those who worked on the farm were Petar Basic;

25 Jovo Mijatic [phoen]; Jovo Gnjatic, Gnjatic, G-n-j-a-t-i-c; Slobodan

Page 6236

1 Aleksic; Nenad Mikeljevic, M-i-k-e-l-j-e-v-i-c. I forget the others.

2 That's all I can remember.

3 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that those persons also took care of the

4 cattle. What sort of produce did the farm put out at the time when you

5 were there?

6 A. It was a farm with cows, hens, laying hens, and pigs, which means

7 it produced milk, eggs, and sometimes animals were slaughtered for meat,

8 meat for the army. And sometimes this meat was also taken down to the KP

9 Dom.

10 Q. Were milk and eggs also taken to the KP Dom?

11 A. I know that eggs were; I'm not sure about milk.

12 Q. Do you know who drove the eggs to the KP Dom?

13 A. When meat, eggs, and milk were driven to the KP Dom, the driver

14 was Lazo Divljan in that Poly vehicle.

15 Q. Was any milk shipped to shops to be sold to the population?

16 A. Milk was also sold to citizenry, and priority was given to mothers

17 of underage children. Lists were even made according to which these --

18 this milk was to be distributed to small children.

19 Q. Did you ever learn what kind of competences Milorad Krnojelac had

20 as warden of the KP Dom?

21 A. Sometimes towards the end of July or in the beginning of August,

22 there was talk over coffee with Novica Mojovic who told me that Milorad

23 Krnojelac was appointed warden of the KP Dom and director of the Drina

24 Economic Unit with competences or authority only over convicted persons.

25 Q. Did you see Milorad Krnojelac on the farm while you were there?

Page 6237

1 A. Yes. We met several times on the farm.

2 Q. What was he wearing then?

3 A. It was a combination of civilian and uniform, even when I was on

4 the farm.

5 Q. Did he have a weapon then?

6 A. By no means.

7 Q. While you were working on the farm, do you know whether the Brioni

8 Motel was in operation?

9 A. I know for sure that it wasn't.

10 Q. Until when did you work at the farm?

11 A. Until April 1993. I think it was the 15th or the 16th of April.

12 Q. Where did you go then?

13 A. Then I went to join an army unit again, according to my

14 assignment.

15 Q. Did the army mobilise you again at that time?

16 A. Well, I joined the unit. That means I was mobilised by the army.

17 Q. How long did you stay with that army unit?

18 A. I stayed with that unit until the signing of the Dayton Accords.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

20 would like to show this witness the Prosecution Exhibit P3.

21 Q. Would you kindly find number 70 in this exhibit. Have you found

22 it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Under 70, it says "Mijovic, Zoran, son of Krsto." Is that you?

25 A. Yes, that is my name and surname and my father's name.

Page 6238

1 Q. It says "born on the 18th of June, 1951."

2 A. No. It's the 16th of June, and I can show my passport to prove

3 it.

4 Q. Further on, in column 4, it says you entered on duty on the 7th of

5 May, 1992. Is that true?

6 A. Well, I suppose this date is correct.

7 Q. In column 5 it says you worked until the 4th of August, 1992. Is

8 that correct?

9 A. No. I worked until the 16th of July that same year. I

10 transferred to the farm after that, but since the farm was an integral

11 part of the KP Dom, and it still is, it means that I worked until the 16th

12 of July, 1993. Something is wrong here.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. We won't be needing

14 this exhibit any more. Thank you, sir.

15 Your Honour, the Defence has no more questions. Thank you.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Ms. Kuo?

17 MS. KUO: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mijovic.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. I just want to clarify the answer to the last question. You said

22 that you worked until the 16th of July, and then the transcript shows

23 1993. Was it 1993 or 1992?

24 A. I worked at the KP Dom until the 16th of July. I transferred to

25 the farm on the 16th, in 1992, and then later, in July 1993, I left the KP

Page 6239

1 farm, the KP farm.

2 Q. Earlier I believe you said that you joined the army unit in April,

3 15th of April, 1993. Was that a mistake? Did you mean April or July?

4 A. On April 23rd, 1993, I reported to the unit, and I was there until

5 the 6th -- I mean, the 7th of May, of 1992. Then in 1993, after the 15th

6 or the 16th of April, I joined the unit again, and I was there until the

7 signing of the Dayton Accords.

8 Q. So the document that you were shown, if it were to be accurate,

9 would show that you started work at the KP Dom on the 7th of May, 1992;

10 and until the 16th of July, 1992, you worked as a security guard at the KP

11 Dom; and then from the 16th of July of 1992 until April of 1993, you were

12 working at the farm. Is that right?

13 A. Yes, and that's what it says in my statement. This is correct.

14 It's true that I worked on the farm from the 16th of July, 1992, until

15 July 1993. After that I went to the military unit.

16 Q. Then there's no significance whatsoever to the date that's shown

17 on the document of 4th August 1992; is that right? Just a mistake?

18 A. Yes, it's most certainly a mistake, because I was supposed to be

19 recorded up until this date. Because the farm is a part of the KP Dom, so

20 I should have been noted down as being there until July 1993.

21 Q. Mr. Mijovic, you had been working at the KP Dom for almost 20

22 years when you retired in 1991, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At that time you were not yet 40 years old, right, when you

25 retired?

Page 6240













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6241

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you get another job at that point?

3 A. Yes, I found another job. I started to work in a trade.

4 Q. What trade was that?

5 A. I was trading in mixed goods, various kinds of goods, and I was

6 doing this together with my younger brother.

7 Q. So you had your own business with your brother; is that right?

8 A. The company was in my brother's name and I was helping him.

9 Q. Now, during the time, the almost 20 years that you worked at the

10 KP Dom before your retirement, you were familiar with the rules and

11 procedures there, right?

12 A. Yes. Yes. I was familiar with the regulations very well, because

13 I never exceeded my authority.

14 Q. You worked that entire time as a guard, right?

15 A. Yes, it's true that I worked as a guard.

16 Q. In the KP Dom procedures, or the rules, before the war, there were

17 strict limitations on how the guards could treat the prisoners, right?

18 A. The regulations were not strict, but they were binding, in

19 accordance with the law.

20 Q. And you yourself said you never exceeded those limitations, so

21 there were limitations on what you could and could not do to the

22 prisoners, right?

23 A. We had our own limitations which we were required to stick to, as

24 officials.

25 Q. These were things that were an official part of the KP Dom rules.

Page 6242

1 They were not just something that people informally agreed; there were

2 rules in place, right?

3 A. Yes. I said there were regulations that we had to stick to, those

4 who were supposed to enforce these regulations.

5 Q. Among these rules was a rule that said you could not beat

6 prisoners, right?

7 A. The use of a baton was not allowed. We were not allowed to beat

8 prisoners. There were rules delineating what we needed to do with

9 persons. So there were special limitations imposed on those officials who

10 had special authority.

11 Q. You mean that people like yourself who had access to the

12 prisoners, right? Is that what you mean by "special authority"?

13 A. Those workers who worked on those duties, we called those people

14 with special authority, meaning that they could transfer persons from one

15 room to another, place them in isolation if they had broken any rules.

16 This is what we meant. Because the rehabilitation service was not

17 permitted to do that. They would call us if it was necessary for us to

18 intervene.

19 Q. And we understand that you never exceeded these rules, but if you

20 ever saw one of your colleagues exceed these limitations, you would have

21 an obligation to report it, right?

22 A. If somebody exceeded these limitations, they would be subject to

23 disciplinary measures in accordance with laws that applied to us, the law

24 on labour relations on our working conditions. The person would be

25 accountable for their actions if they had committed something like that.

Page 6243

1 Q. What was the chain of command? Let's assume that there was a

2 guard who was accused or was seen beating a prisoner. Who would

3 discipline that guard?

4 A. There was a disciplinary committee which would establish that

5 person's responsibility.

6 Q. Was this a permanent committee, or was it a committee that a

7 warden would have to call together?

8 A. It was a permanent committee, a disciplinary committee which

9 worked and applied to all officials who were not carrying out their work

10 duties in accordance with the laws. So this committee could dismiss them,

11 could fine them, or it could issue a warning or it could transfer them to

12 a different job. The committee had three members, it had its own

13 president, and it was elected by the assembly of workers.

14 Q. Who were the members of the committee? I mean by their -- tell us

15 their position.

16 A. Do you need names or -- I'm not quite clear about your question.

17 Q. I don't need the names. Were they -- were they elected? You said

18 they were elected by the workers. Were they fellow guards and other staff

19 members or were they officials in the management, like the warden or the

20 deputy warden or the commander of guards?

21 A. No. Since the KP Dom was a specific work organisation which --

22 where convicted people served their sentences, it had its economy and it

23 also had a management which conducted the financial affairs. It also had

24 a rehabilitation service which was in charge of rehabilitating the

25 convicts, convicted persons. All of these services had their own

Page 6244

1 organisational units which, amongst themselves at a meeting, elected --

2 proposed and elected -- would propose people to the workers' assembly, and

3 then the workers would elect these members of the committee because the

4 bosses could not be in these committees. So each service or unit would

5 have a member, and the people who voted on who would be elected, the

6 number had to be an odd number in order to have a majority vote.

7 Q. So that the committee that you're talking about was basically a

8 kind of appeals committee made up of -- or was it an investigative

9 committee that would hear the allegations and make a decision about it.

10 Is that what it was?

11 JUDGE HUNT: I think, Ms. Kuo, the use of the word "appeals" there

12 may mislead the witness.

13 MS. KUO: Yes.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think you were relying upon it in the end.

15 MS. KUO: I said appeals, but then I rethought that.

16 JUDGE HUNT: That's what I thought, but it may not have been

17 clear. May I suggest you reformulate the question in the way you put it

18 at the end --

19 MS. KUO: Certainly.

20 JUDGE HUNT: -- and by itself.

21 MS. KUO: Yes.

22 Q. The committee that you mentioned, was it an investigative

23 committee that would consider the allegations and make a decision?

24 A. Precisely. The committee was the one that investigated charges

25 that were made against a certain staff member. The legal department would

Page 6245

1 prepare a proposal to initiate proceedings - this was the job of the legal

2 services - if there was a report made against a certain worker.

3 When this report was received by the committee, a meeting was

4 scheduled, and it would be like a kind of council or a tribunal. Then

5 they would reach a disciplinary measure, a form of punishment. That's

6 what it was called, a disciplinary measure. And when this measure was

7 set, then at the city level there was a higher committee so that the

8 person who -- who had a finding made against him could appeal to a

9 second-instance committee, and then this could only then be resolved at

10 that stage only by a court.

11 Q. Let's go back to the initiation of allegations. You've told us --

12 we're working a little bit backwards. Let's start from the beginning.

13 If, if you saw one of your colleagues do something that was in

14 violation of the rules that was serious, for example, beating a prisoner,

15 and you reported that, whom would you report it to?

16 A. If he did something like that, then we had our foreman that we

17 would go to. They would go, in turn, to their bosses, and the bosses

18 would in turn go to the warden.

19 Q. And you mentioned bosses and bosses. Can you tell us -- fill

20 those blanks in for us? You would go to your foreman who had what kind of

21 position? Was there a title, or was it just foreman?

22 A. We would just call them "boss."

23 Q. And during the time just before you left the KP Dom, who was that

24 person? I mean just before you retired.

25 A. To tell you the truth, I can't remember the name. A lot of things

Page 6246

1 have happened to me in my life since then, and I have forgotten that. I

2 was involved in my own affairs. I have forgotten a lot of people that I

3 didn't have any contacts with any more so that I have lost, lost sight of

4 the names. I know that it existed, but who that person was at that time I

5 really don't remember.

6 Q. So that foreman would then report to the commander of guards,

7 right, or relay the information you gave to the commander of guards?

8 A. Yes. If it was one of the guards, in that case he would go to the

9 commander of guards.

10 Q. And then the commander of guards in turn would relay the

11 information to the deputy warden, right?

12 A. No, it wouldn't go like that. I've already said this would go to

13 the legal department, which would take statements from the person making

14 the report and from the person that was charged, because once the legal

15 department took the statements, then the statements were sent to the

16 committee.

17 Q. You mentioned earlier that the bosses would, in turn, take this

18 information to the warden. At what point would this information reach the

19 warden? Before or after the legal department?

20 A. After the hearing, because until statements were taken, things

21 were not really known. Once the statements were taken, it was the

22 obligation of the bosses to inform the warden about the situation in the

23 KP Dom.

24 Q. And so during the time when statements are being taken by the

25 legal department, the warden is not involved or wouldn't know about it?

Page 6247













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6248

1 A. He wasn't involved, and he didn't need to know until this work was

2 completed, because the legal officers had their own duties.

3 Q. The legal officers' office was just down the hall from the

4 warden's, right?

5 A. Do you mean before the war, while I was working there?

6 Q. Yes. We're still during that time now.

7 A. No. No, it wasn't like that.

8 Q. Where was the legal department?

9 A. On the second floor, at the opposite end from the warden's

10 office. One was from the entrance to the right and the other was from the

11 entrance to the left. So when you came to the second floor, there were

12 six or seven offices before the legal department; and then also on the

13 other side, six offices before you reached the warden's office. On that

14 floor where you are indicating, that's where the commercial service was,

15 which was dealing with the sales of the products from the economic unit.

16 Q. But it was the same floor. The legal department was the same

17 floor as the warden's office; right?

18 A. I said that on the second floor, at one end was one of those

19 offices, and then the other office was at the other end of the corridor.

20 Q. Sir, during the 20 years or so that you worked at the KP Dom

21 before you retired, there were times when this disciplinary procedure was

22 initiated, right? I mean, it happens in any institution that there are

23 violations or allegations of violations, and that did happen;

24 investigations did happen while you were there.

25 A. As far as I can remember, yes, there were such cases, because

Page 6249

1 people who work will make mistakes, and sometimes people -- some people

2 made more mistakes, some people made fewer mistakes. Some people were

3 dismissed. Some people had to change their post. Perhaps they were

4 demoted as a form of punishment. And there were also fines. Sums which

5 were five to ten per cent, at the most, were deducted from their salaries.

6 Q. What role would the warden play in all these disciplinary

7 proceedings? At one point he would need to learn of the allegations and

8 the investigation. Did he have a role to play?

9 A. The warden didn't have a direct role. We perhaps -- he didn't

10 need to be informed about an investigative procedure being launched

11 against a particular worker. Once the committee determined a disciplinary

12 measure, at that point the warden was informed about it.

13 Q. Did the warden have any say in whether a person -- in what

14 punishment a person received?

15 A. The warden didn't have any say, and he didn't interfere in things

16 like that.

17 Q. If the warden himself learned of a violation, he would have to

18 report that, just like everybody else; right?

19 A. Well, whether the warden knew or not, I don't know. He didn't

20 inform me about that. But I don't know of any cases where the warden

21 would do anything like that.

22 Q. My question was a slightly hypothetical one. If the warden knew

23 of something, if the warden learned from somebody about an allegation, the

24 warden would have to report that, just as you said you would have to

25 report it, right?

Page 6250

1 A. I don't know what the warden would do. That's something that I

2 really wouldn't know.

3 Q. But the warden is not an exception, right? I mean, he's an

4 employee at the KP Dom, just as you were. The same rules apply to him in

5 this respect, right?

6 A. It's true that he's an employee at the KP Dom, but I wouldn't know

7 what he would do, in the same way that he wouldn't know what I would do,

8 would I make a report or not. I really don't know what the warden would

9 do.

10 Q. I'm not talking about specific people and what a specific person

11 would or would not do; I'm simply asking about what the rules for

12 everybody says. You mentioned at the beginning of your testimony that

13 there were rules about discipline, and you knew them and everyone knew

14 what they were, and these rules applied to everybody, right? There's no

15 exception for the warden.

16 A. Regarding the law on labour relations, all the workers were equal

17 before that law, meaning the warden as well was subject to that law, the

18 law on labour relations. He was bound by that law, just like any other

19 worker, any other employee.

20 Q. Now, if the warden saw somebody being -- saw a guard beating a

21 prisoner, or heard about it, he would have an obligation to report that so

22 that this investigation could start, right?

23 A. Well, as far as that's concerned, I told you what is provided for

24 under the law, but I really -- other than that, I don't know. I really

25 couldn't say.

Page 6251

1 Q. There was no exception, as far as you know, for the warden? The

2 rules that you were familiar with didn't say everybody except the warden

3 had to report these things, right?

4 A. The rules were binding on everybody, in exactly the same way.

5 There were rules which were to be respected by everybody.

6 Q. Mr. Mijovic, before the war, Mr. Tesovic was the warden at the KP

7 Dom, right?

8 A. It's true, when I started working, that Tesovic was the warden,

9 and he was on that post until the day that the hostilities broke out.

10 Q. So he was there for almost -- or more than 20 years by 1992;

11 right?

12 A. Radojica Tesovic started to work at the KP Dom before I did. He

13 worked in the rehabilitation unit for a while. For a period he was away

14 from the KP Dom and he was involved in -- in local city politics. He was

15 the mayor, and then he was again returned to KP Dom as warden.

16 Q. When he returned after being mayor to the KP Dom, to being KP Dom

17 warden, do you remember what year that was?

18 A. It's hard for me to remember the year. I will make a mistake if

19 I -- if I try to remember the year.

20 Q. Was it shortly before the hostilities started or a number of years

21 before then?

22 A. I think it was maybe four or five years before the hostilities

23 broke out.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MS. KUO: Your Honours, it's 11.00.

Page 6252

1 JUDGE HUNT: It's 1.00, actually. We'll resume at 2.30.

2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
























Page 6253

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic.

3 I'm sorry. Ms. Kuo.

4 MS. KUO:

5 Q. Mr. Mijovic, before the lunch break we were talking about Radojica

6 Tesovic. He was Serb, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And he was a good warden, wasn't he?

9 A. During his term, he carried out his duty.

10 Q. He treated Muslim prisoners and Serb prisoners alike, right?

11 A. That's what the conditions of his work were like.

12 Q. And he was professionally trained as a warden, right?

13 A. Before he became a warden, he filled a lot of other positions in

14 the KP Dom and gained a rich experience which allowed him to be successful

15 in that job.

16 Q. Mr. Tesovic was well-known and well respected in Foca, wasn't he?

17 A. In his long years of service, he earned a reputation that earned

18 him the respect of people.

19 Q. Among his duties as a warden, which he successfully carried out,

20 was taking care of the prisoners, right, making sure that no harm came to

21 them?

22 A. Well, that was his job.

23 Q. And shortly before the outbreak of hostilities in Foca, it was

24 known that Mr. Tesovic disagreed with any kind of nationalistic party

25 politics, right?

Page 6254













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6255

1 A. As far as I'm concerned, I had no contact for a year with

2 Mr. Tesovic, and I saw him rarely. In fact, we went different ways.

3 Q. But you've never known him to support nationalistic politics, have

4 you?

5 A. I didn't know, and I had no particular interest in that.

6 Q. Just before you returned to KP Dom on your wartime assignment, do

7 you know who the deputy warden was?

8 A. You mean pre-war? What period are we talking about?

9 Q. I mean pre-war. Just before the war started, who was the deputy

10 warden?

11 A. In 1991, when I started, it was Alija Berberkic.

12 Q. At some point was Savo Todovic -- before the war, was Savo Todovic

13 the deputy warden?

14 A. As far as I know, Savo Todovic was a lawyer dealing with

15 administrative affairs.

16 Q. Just before the war, who was the guard commander?

17 A. When I left, or got retired --

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter isn't certain.

19 A. -- it was Mitar Rasevic.

20 MS. KUO:

21 Q. There was some ambiguity in the interpretation about how it was

22 you left the KP Dom. Did you simply leave or did you retire?

23 A. I didn't leave the KP Dom. It was my own personal request to go

24 into retirement because pursuant to the relevant article of the labour

25 law, I had fulfilled all the conditions for retirement. And the legal

Page 6256

1 service approved my request, so I went in to retirement and got an old-age

2 pension.

3 Q. You mentioned that Mijan Simovic [sic] was the head of the Drina

4 Economic Unit before the war. How long had he been the director of the

5 Drina Economic Unit?

6 A. That's a mistake. Miljenko Simovic was the director, and his

7 brother, Josip Simovic, was the director of the farm.

8 Q. I'm sorry I made that mistake about the names. Could you tell us

9 how long each of them had been in their respective directorships?

10 A. I can't remember when any of them started in their duties. There

11 were many workers. We couldn't know who worked when. Those were all

12 various work units, and there was not much contact or socialising among

13 them.

14 Q. Where was Miljenko Simovic during the war? Was he still working

15 on the farm when you were there?

16 A. Miljenko Simovic never worked on the farm.

17 Q. I'm sorry again about the names. Was Josip Simovic at the farm

18 when you were there?

19 A. When I came to the farm to work, he wasn't there.

20 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

21 A. I couldn't have known amidst all that.

22 Q. Did you see Miljenko Simovic during the war at KP Dom?

23 A. When I came there and during the time I worked there, he wasn't.

24 Q. So he was not head of the Drina Economic Unit any more when the

25 war started, right?

Page 6257

1 A. Well, probably he couldn't have been working there if he wasn't to

2 be seen there.

3 Q. During the 20 years or so that you worked at the KP Dom, you got

4 to know or work somewhat with the Drina Economic Unit, right? You're

5 familiar with it.

6 A. Yes, I was familiar.

7 Q. And you mentioned just now the two Simovics. One was the director

8 of the Drina Economic Unit and the other one was the director of the farm.

9 So there were two different directors; is that right?

10 A. No, that is not so, because this one Miljenko was the director of

11 the entire economic unit; and the other brother, Josip, was the director

12 of the smaller work unit within the economy which comprised also, in

13 addition to the farm, the metalwork shop, the furniture factory, the

14 fisheries, the catering, and other work units. And the director of all

15 that taken together was Miljenko Simovic.

16 Q. Compared to functioning before the war, isn't it true that the

17 Drina Economic Unit during the war was significantly smaller?

18 A. It should be smaller because due to war operations, the fisheries

19 were destroyed, the construction unit was destroyed, the catering had

20 fallen apart and stopped operating. The only things that remained with

21 the furniture factory and the farm and a part of the metalwork shop.

22 Q. Do you know during the time that you were at the KP Dom how many

23 prisoners were working at the furniture factory?

24 A. I couldn't know because I never entered the furniture factory. I

25 never displayed an interest in that. It was not my job.

Page 6258

1 Q. Mr. Mijovic, I want to go back to something we had discussed

2 before the lunch break. We were talking about the disciplinary measures

3 in place before the war, and you said that often mistakes happened, and of

4 course, we all understand that. Were you yourself ever disciplined during

5 that time?

6 A. In my 20 years of service, I was never subjected to any

7 disciplinary measures.

8 Q. Now, you stated that you received -- you returned to the KP Dom on

9 May 7th of 1992 because you received a summons to go there. Is that

10 right?

11 A. Yes. It's true that I returned on the 7th of May according to the

12 assignment given me by the military command.

13 Q. When you received that assignment, you were able to report to the

14 KP Dom by yourself, right? In other words, no one had to escort you or

15 take you by force.

16 A. There was no need to because I reported of my own free will to the

17 secondary school centre where assignment to units were given. After that,

18 I joined my unit to which I was assigned, and I was informed by my direct

19 superior there that my assignment had been changed and that I should

20 report instead to the KP Dom.

21 Q. Mr. Mijovic, many of the things that you're saying now you've

22 already told us during the direct examination so there's no need for you

23 to repeat it, and it would be a lot easier if you would simply answer the

24 question. I'm trying to ask a lot of yes and no questions, so there's no

25 need for you to explain each time, okay? It will go a lot faster.

Page 6259

1 So you went to the KP Dom. Nobody had to physically walk you over

2 to the KP Dom, and you didn't object to going there, right?

3 A. I didn't object because an assignment has to be obeyed, complied

4 with.

5 Q. When you reported to the KP Dom, you were assigned to duty at the

6 front gate as a guard, right?

7 A. Not exactly at the front gate, but along the building, along the

8 side of the building which -- where the gate was, the whole length of that

9 side.

10 Q. And the main entrance is -- there's one main entrance where

11 pedestrians come in, and then further down closer to the bridge is an

12 entrance for vehicles, right?

13 A. No, not quite. There is first of all the gate, the entrance, to

14 the administrative building, and from the administrative building you go

15 to the gate which leads to the compound.

16 Q. Very well. When you used the term "gate," you mean the gate that

17 separates the administrative building from the courtyard, right?

18 A. That's what I call the main gate, and I was in front, outside, the

19 entrance to the building.

20 Q. There's only one -- there's that one entrance to the

21 administrative building, and from there you need to pass through there in

22 order to get to the gate in order to get into the compound, right?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. So everybody who was coming in, if you were on duty, is -- you

25 would know when people were coming in, right? You would see them. You'd

Page 6260

1 have to check them to make sure they had authorisation to come in, and it

2 was only if you allowed them to come in that they were allowed to, right?

3 You were the gatekeeper.

4 A. Our task was to stand guard, and if anyone came by, he entered the

5 administrative building and would come across the guard standing there,

6 show his papers, the guard would ask him where he was going, and that's

7 all.

8 Q. So you -- were you ever the guard inside to whom people showed

9 papers or were you only the guard outside?

10 A. In all the time that I spent there, I was in external security,

11 that is, outside.

12 Q. You testified in your direct examination that your job was to keep

13 unauthorised people out of the KP Dom, so you would have to know who was

14 authorised and who was not authorised, right?

15 A. I said it was our duty to prevent such people from entering by

16 other paths. Somebody could enter across the wall, for instance, and we

17 were supposed to catch such a person and prevent this attempt.

18 Q. As detainees were brought in, you also participated in searching

19 them, right?

20 A. No, that's not right, because we couldn't leave this area. It's a

21 guard post which cannot be left without permission, without special

22 arrangement. Somebody, for instance, had to come to replace me during the

23 time I went to breakfast.

24 Q. When Muslim detainees were brought in, you saw them being brought

25 in, right, sometimes by the busload?

Page 6261













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6262

1 A. I didn't see the bus bringing them, because I wasn't on duty then,

2 perhaps. If you count all the days that I was on duty, it wasn't much.

3 If a bus came, it came outside the gate to the administrative building,

4 and we couldn't see who was on the bus.

5 MS. KUO: I'd like, with the assistance of the usher, for the

6 witness to be shown Exhibit P6, please.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. It's about

8 the transcript, page 62, line 2. It says, "We couldn't see who was on the

9 bus," and the witness actually said, "We couldn't see who was inside," and

10 he meant small passenger vehicles. I think this is a mistake in the

11 transcript.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, the reference beforehand in the question was

13 "by the busload." I don't know whether he adopted it.

14 Perhaps you had better ask it again, Ms. Kuo, and see whether you

15 can clear it up. The translation certainly came out "could not see him on

16 the bus." I heard that. The question is whether the interpretation is

17 correct.

18 MS. KUO: Yes. I think it's a little bit odd, because he says he

19 didn't see a bus, so it wouldn't really make a difference.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Let's get it sorted out.

21 MS. KUO:

22 Q. What were you not able to see?

23 A. I said that while I was working, I never saw a bus bringing

24 Muslims, which means that I never saw that a bus ever came or brought

25 anyone. If there was a bus, it didn't arrive in the shifts when I was on

Page 6263

1 duty. If anybody came in smaller vehicles, they went straight to the

2 entrance gate, so we couldn't see inside.

3 Q. So there were never buses that came on your shift, but if there

4 were a bus that came on your shift, you wouldn't be able to see who was

5 inside; is that what you're saying?

6 A. No, no, no. I said the bus never came. As far as buses are

7 concerned, I never saw a bus. If there was anything, it was a small

8 passenger vehicle. I couldn't see inside it, because we were not allowed

9 to leave our guard posts.

10 Q. Let's turn our attention to Exhibit P6, and this is a diagram of

11 the KP Dom. Sir, please take a look at it and indicate to us where your

12 post was, the guard post that you've described to us. It may be easier

13 for you to look --

14 A. You mean this?

15 Q. Please look at the document itself.

16 A. This is supposed to be the road, right?

17 Q. Yes, that's right.

18 A. I can't see with these eyeglasses at all.

19 Q. Can you locate the entrance to the administrative building? Would

20 it help if somebody showed you where the administrative building was?

21 A. Yes, if somebody could please do that.

22 MS. KUO: I don't know if the usher is in a position to indicate

23 that.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I can certainly understand the difficulty in reading

25 that plan. It's in very tiny print.

Page 6264

1 A. [Indicates]

2 MS. KUO:

3 Q. Mr. Mijovic, you have your finger now right on the entrance to the

4 administrative building. Does that help you orient yourself?

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Can you use the pointer?

7 A. This is down from the bridge. May I ask -- this is the metalwork

8 shop, this part here.

9 MS. KUO: Perhaps we can have the witness look at Exhibit P6/1.

10 It's a little bit larger.

11 A. This is the park.

12 JUDGE HUNT: We have a photograph -- I'm sorry. We have a

13 photograph, do we not, Ms. Kuo, of the front of the KP Dom taken from

14 across the road? I don't know if that will help the witness.

15 MS. KUO: Yes. We'll try with this diagram first and then we'll

16 show him the photograph.

17 A. Maybe I can show you here.

18 Q. All right, Witness. I know it's very difficult on the diagram,

19 but I'll show you Exhibit P18, photograph 7441. We have an enlarged

20 photograph which shows the front of the KP Dom. Perhaps you can show us

21 on that the extent of your guard post.

22 A. May I turn it towards myself? It's upside down. This is taken

23 from this direction, right?

24 Q. I have a picture -- I have a photograph, which is 7529, which is a

25 closer picture, where you can very clearly show the entrance.

Page 6265

1 JUDGE HUNT: There's certainly one without the trees, as I

2 recall. Is that the one you've now shown him?

3 MS. KUO: There will always be trees there, Your Honour.

4 A. Between the road and these trees, it's this part here, up to this

5 hall, the cinema hall.

6 MS. KUO: And the witness is indicating the length of the front of

7 the administrative building, going from the entrance toward the right on

8 the photograph to where he says is the cinema hall. It's about a third or

9 three-quarters of the way to the right.

10 A. This is the metalwork shop.

11 MS. KUO: The witness has just indicated the left-hand side of the

12 photograph.

13 Q. So basically your guard post was that length of the building,

14 going back and forth from the entrance to the administrative building, to

15 the end of the cinema, toward the metal shop, right?

16 A. Yes, up to the metalwork shop.

17 Q. And while we have this photograph here, could you show us where a

18 vehicle bringing people to the entrance of the administrative building

19 would be? This is the road. They would pull up right to that entrance,

20 right?

21 A. It comes from the metalwork shop and up to the very entrance.

22 Q. And you've just indicated the entrance to the administrative

23 building. That area where a vehicle coming would be is within your guard

24 post, right? It is, right, within the area that you would be patrolling?

25 A. That's the part that I covered; that's where I patrolled during my

Page 6266

1 shifts. I didn't see once that a vehicle came - I mean during the night -

2 that it came to the KP Dom and brought somebody there. Whatever happened,

3 happened during the day.

4 MS. KUO: Thank you, usher. We do not need the photographs or the

5 diagrams any more.

6 Q. Mr. Mijovic, I never asked you about night-time. Let's talk about

7 daytime. It's true that vehicles came and brought Muslims to be detained

8 at KP Dom during the daytime, right?

9 A. I don't remember any groups being brought while I was there, if

10 they were brought. I do not remember any groups being brought when I was

11 there.

12 Q. I'm not asking you, Mr. Mijovic, about any groups. I'm asking you

13 about any Muslims at all being brought. You know that Muslims were being

14 brought to the KP Dom, right, during the time you were there. That's not

15 contested: They were being brought.

16 A. They were. It's clear they were bringing Muslims. The majority

17 of them were brought in before I arrived.

18 Q. But while you were there, after you arrived on May 7th, there were

19 still Muslims being brought in, right?

20 A. I don't remember that they were being brought.

21 Q. There were Muslims being brought in by the military police. You

22 have told us that.

23 A. It was the duty of the military police to bring them.

24 Q. You were on duty for 12-hour shifts, sometimes during the daytime,

25 sometimes during the night-time, but the Muslim detainees were being

Page 6267

1 brought in during the daytime shifts, right?

2 A. I don't really remember anything regarding that particular

3 question so that I could explain that to this Court.

4 Q. So you're telling us that you were working 12-hour shifts from

5 6.00 in the morning till 6.00 in the evening, the daytime shifts were at

6 least two or three times a week for two months and more, and during that

7 entire time no Muslim detainees were brought in? Is that what you're

8 telling this Court?

9 A. Yes, that's what I want to say.

10 Q. You are aware that the number of Muslim detainees increased during

11 the month of May and the beginning of June, right?

12 A. I don't remember how many there were at all because I really don't

13 know how many there were, how many detained Muslims there were. I don't

14 know how many came, how they were brought, nor what their exact number

15 was. I didn't really have anything to do with that.

16 Q. You're saying that you never searched any Muslims who were brought

17 in to the KP Dom? You never searched them and took their money and ID and

18 jewellery into -- for safekeeping. You never did that?

19 A. I never did that because I wasn't permitted to leave my guard post

20 in order to do that. Other people were in charge of doing that.

21 Q. Mr. Slavko Koroman was also working that front gate, right, the

22 entrance to the administrative building?

23 A. I know Slavko, but I don't know where his post was. I don't

24 remember that now.

25 Q. You don't remember that he worked at that front door with you

Page 6268













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6269

1 during the time that you were there?

2 A. It all depends in which shifts we were. If we weren't working on

3 the same shifts, then I wouldn't know where he was working.

4 Q. But you know that when he was working a shift, whether or not you

5 were there at the same time, it was that front entrance to the

6 administrative building, right? Everyone saw him there. Are you the only

7 one who's going to say he wasn't working there?

8 A. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that we didn't

9 always work in the same shift, so I don't know when and where Slavko

10 worked. He probably worked around there somewhere.

11 Q. So in addition to the fact that you're saying you never saw Muslim

12 detainees being brought in, you're also saying that you never saw Slavko

13 Koroman working at that front door, never ever?

14 A. I said that we didn't work in the same shifts. Whether he work at

15 the main entrance or at some other place, how can I know that?

16 Q. Do you know Milenko Elcic?

17 A. I know Milenko Elcic.

18 Q. He worked at that front door too, didn't he?

19 A. I'm not sure I can remember. Perhaps he did.

20 Q. And he participated in searching the detainees as they were

21 brought in, right?

22 A. It was the duty of the person working at the gate to search people

23 to see if they had any weapons and to make sure that they didn't commit

24 anything.

25 Q. So you did see him working at that front gate, right?

Page 6270

1 A. Perhaps he did.

2 Q. Isn't it true that on May 25th -- well, do you remember if you

3 were working on May 25th, 1992?

4 A. I think that I wasn't working that day because I think that the

5 thing that I did for Mr. Milorad was around that time, so I was probably

6 engaged elsewhere.

7 Q. What was the date when you did that thing for Mr. Milorad

8 Krnojelac?

9 A. I cannot remember the exact date, but it was probably around the

10 end of May. Exactly when it was, I can't remember. I didn't think it was

11 necessary for me to note it down, and I didn't -- I don't remember.

12 Q. But since I asked you about the date of May 25th, you specifically

13 say that you think it was that day that you were engaged elsewhere, right?

14 I mean, there's no other reason for you to think it was that date except

15 that I asked you about it.

16 A. I don't know. I can't remember the exact date when I worked.

17 What else could I say?

18 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Mijovic, that on the 25th of May, 1992, at

19 about 9.30 in the evening, a bus arrived from Bar in Montenegro with

20 Muslims and Serbs inside, about 25 people, and that as they were brought

21 off the bus, about eight or ten soldiers beat the Muslims, and you and

22 Slavko Koroman and Mr. Elcic were all there? Isn't that right? That's

23 why you don't want to place yourself at the KP Dom on the 25th of May

24 because that's what happened, right?

25 A. No, no. I was not present then. If the bus was brought, really,

Page 6271

1 I wasn't there if or when the bus was brought.

2 Q. Isn't it true that when these prisoners and detainees were brought

3 in from Montenegro that a fellow guard Radomir Matovic, who worked in the

4 kitchen, lined them up against the wall, kicked and hit them using his

5 rifle butt? Isn't it true that that's what happened when they were

6 brought in?

7 A. I wasn't there, and I didn't see it.

8 Q. Had you seen such a thing happen, you would have known that it was

9 completely improper, right, for soldiers or guards to beat people as

10 they're being brought in to the KP Dom? You would have known that, right?

11 A. Well, as far as that's concerned, it's not all right for things

12 like that to be done. Everybody should know that. Like I said, based on

13 my long-term work, it wasn't my idea that something like that should be

14 done, and I also condemned somebody who would do something like that.

15 Q. We talked earlier about the procedures before the war for

16 reporting misconduct. Were these procedures still in place during the

17 war? In other words, had you seen a violation such as I described, that

18 you would have reported it to your foreman and it would have gone up the

19 chain of command the same way that you described it?

20 A. I can't explain how it would have worked because it was a

21 completely different time from the time that I was explaining to you, so I

22 really don't know how that would have worked at that time.

23 Q. Are you saying that if you'd seen a violation like that, you would

24 not have had the obligation to report it during the wartime because things

25 were completely different?

Page 6272

1 A. Based on what I myself did, you could come -- you can come to the

2 conclusion of what I would have been like -- what it would have been like,

3 because I took a great risk by doing what I did, because if at any point I

4 was stopped by anyone, I would have been killed the same as those other

5 people would have been killed.

6 Q. What risk are you talking about?

7 A. By transporting those two Muslim women, because at that time an

8 order was in force that they were not allowed to leave the town. And I

9 took it upon myself personally to do this favour for Mr. Milorad and to

10 take them out.

11 Q. So you're saying that the risk that you would have taken, had you

12 reported the misconduct of somebody at KP Dom by beating a Muslim

13 detainee, that that risk was comparable to the risk of violating an order

14 and taking a Muslim to safety, same risk?

15 A. I don't think that that would have been that kind of a risk, but

16 who knows what could have happened. I really don't remember enough now in

17 order to define it.

18 Q. But in other words, you were scared to report if you saw another

19 guard beating a Muslim detainee, right; you were scared to report that

20 during this time? You certainly remember that, right?

21 A. War is war, and who knows what the effect of that would have

22 been. Things are different in peacetime and they're different in wartime.

23 Q. So there were instructions that it was permissible for a guard to

24 beat up Muslim detainees during that time at KP Dom, right?

25 A. Nobody ever issued such an instruction, nor was anybody allowed to

Page 6273

1 do that. And as far as the professional guards are concerned who were

2 doing this, I believe that they did their job professionally and none of

3 them ever did anything like that. This is what I think, because I never

4 saw anybody commit anything like that.

5 Q. So there was an understanding, then, that soldiers could beat up

6 the Muslim detainees, right, and that if you tried to report that, you

7 would be risking, taking a big risk?

8 A. I don't know whether I would have exposed myself to a risk, but as

9 soon as the army arrived at KP Dom, they took the responsibility upon

10 themselves. So I believe that nobody ever really was disturbed there,

11 because these were professionals, these people, and they were doing their

12 job.

13 Q. During the whole time that you were at the KP Dom in 1992, nobody

14 was ever punished or disciplined for abusing Muslim detainees, were they?

15 There was never any disciplinary action taken.

16 A. I don't remember that anything like that ever happened. Whether

17 it happened or it didn't, I really -- I don't know. I don't remember.

18 Q. You told us that the military had taken over the KP Dom. They did

19 that before you arrived on May 7th, right?

20 A. The military took over the KP Dom before. I don't know how that

21 happened, but I know the situation on the 7th of May. How it was before

22 that, I don't know.

23 Q. So as far as you were concerned, the time that you were guarding

24 that front part of the KP Dom, you were working for the army, right?

25 A. I received the assignment from the army.

Page 6274

1 Q. You made no distinction within the KP Dom between any military or

2 civilian part, right? I mean, it was all run by the military, for whom

3 you worked.

4 A. There was a distinction. People who knew or understood how the KP

5 Dom worked, or the running of the KP Dom, that was what the army was in

6 charge of. And then there was also the section with people who were

7 convicted and serving their sentences, and this is what the warden was in

8 charge of. These were people who were convicts at the start of the

9 hostilities, so that was part of the warden's duties. He was monitoring

10 the convicts who were already there. Those others who had violated some

11 rules after the outbreak of the hostilities were under the supervision of

12 the military.

13 Q. While you were at the KP Dom, before you went to the farm, you

14 never made these fine distinctions, right? While you were guarding that

15 front part of the KP Dom, the warden was the warden. He came and went as

16 he pleased to the KP Dom and he was in charge of the KP Dom, right?

17 A. I was securing the front part of the KP Dom. That was my duty, to

18 secure the KP Dom, and only when I got to the farm did I find out about

19 all the different functions. The warden never addressed us, never issued

20 us orders or anything like that. We received our orders from other

21 sources. The warden only was in charge of the economic unit and also of

22 those old convicts, the convicts that I mentioned before.

23 Q. From what other sources did you receive your orders?

24 A. The command issued orders, and this was conveyed to us, and Mitar

25 Rasevic was the one who was organising our work, our duties.

Page 6275













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6276

1 Q. So you received your directions and orders directly from Mitar

2 Rasevic, right?

3 A. The work that we were supposed to do and when we were supposed to

4 do it, this is -- we received our schedules from him. He was organising

5 our shifts and telling us how to work and what our duties were.

6 Q. And where Mitar Rasevic was getting his orders, you don't know

7 that, do you?

8 A. Well, it's difficult for me to know that.

9 Q. So the answer is no.

10 A. The answer is not no, but it's something that I cannot know

11 something like that. I don't know. I just know that whoever Mitar

12 received his orders from, he would convey those orders to us.

13 Q. During the two and a half months that you were at the KP Dom, you

14 never once noticed any distinction between any military or civilian part

15 of the KP Dom, right? It was only when you got to the farm that you claim

16 that Mr. Mojovic told you that there was this limited role of the warden?

17 A. I have already said that it was my job to secure the KP Dom. I

18 never went inside or discussed this with anybody. I knew what I was

19 supposed to do, so I never talked about that with anyone else. It was my

20 job to carry out my orders.

21 Q. While you were working, Mr. Mijovic, there was no distinction

22 between the professional guards and the military conscripts who were there

23 working as guards, right? You were all guards?

24 A. Professional guards worked in the internal security. They were

25 already there at the outbreak of the war. They left the KP Dom until

Page 6277

1 everything was finished, but then they continued; they carried on with

2 their former duties. And then we were the ones who were in charge of

3 external security.

4 Q. During peacetime there were also guards in charge of external

5 security, right?

6 A. I've already said that in the operation of the KP Dom, there was

7 the external security, physical security, as well as internal security,

8 and they were in charge of the organisation and the schedule, the

9 enforcement of sentences and the enforcement of rules within the KP Dom.

10 Q. There were no Muslim or Croat guards working at the KP Dom any

11 more when you arrived in 1992, right?

12 A. When I arrived, there were no Muslims, because they had left the

13 KP Dom. They left it all in disarray. When I was working there before,

14 there were no Croats working there. There was only one Slovenian who was

15 working there. As far as Croats were concerned, they didn't want to come

16 to work there.

17 Q. When you returned to the KP Dom about a year after you had left,

18 many of your former colleagues, the Serb colleagues, were still working

19 there, right?

20 A. I found there most of those who worked there before. Perhaps a

21 few of them retired, in the same way that I did. There were some younger

22 people there, or perhaps a year or so older than me, and so on.

23 Q. So there were people like yourself, like Mr. Koroman, who had been

24 retired and were called back during the wartime to fill in the ranks, so

25 to speak, right?

Page 6278

1 A. The command gave us that duty, but I don't know what their reasons

2 were for doing so.

3 Q. Since you were already colleagues with many of these what you call

4 professional guards at the KP Dom, there was no distinction between

5 someone like you, who was called in during the wartime, and the people who

6 had continued working there and were still working there, right? It's all

7 the same.

8 A. We could not all have been the same, because I had already served

9 my time, my work time. As soon as that happens and you retired, you no

10 longer had any right to enter the complex. So after that, it was quite

11 known what we were allowed to do. The minute that we lost our official

12 identification, from that moment on we would lose all our official

13 authority as well.

14 Q. And people like yourself, then, who were not, or no longer, or had

15 never been professional guards, did not have a right to enter the

16 compound; is that what you're saying?

17 A. What I want to say is that people like that could not be working

18 with the convicted persons.

19 Q. There weren't that many convicted persons left at the KP Dom, were

20 there? Maybe 25 or 27?

21 A. As far as I can remember, it's about that number, because for the

22 most part, they went to the farm to work. It's hard to know what their

23 number was. In the morning most of them would go to the farm to work, and

24 some of them would stay there, whereas others would go back for the

25 night. It depended on who liked drinking more. Those who liked to drink,

Page 6279

1 they would come back to spend the night at the KP Dom, whereas the others

2 who were hard workers stayed at the farm, because the work there was hard.

3 Q. Let me see if I understand your answer. These convicted prisoners

4 were allowed to drink at the KP Dom?

5 A. Convicted persons are forbidden to consume alcohol at the KP Dom,

6 and they are not allowed to drink when they are out there somewhere

7 working, because that entails punishment.

8 Q. But you said just now that those who liked drinking more came back

9 to the KP Dom rather than staying overnight at the farm, so you mean that

10 the Serb prisoners were allowed to drink, then, if they came back to the

11 KP Dom, right?

12 A. I said drinking was forbidden, but because since the farm was very

13 near the main road, you could easily find somebody who would share a

14 bottle and invite people. They would get drunk. They would sort of play

15 truant at night. It was not proper security, really. It was an open

16 area. Anyone could drift away as they pleased.

17 During the night, they would simply disappear. There were

18 villages all around. They could sit around there drinking, and they

19 didn't have to go back during the night. They would only have to appear

20 in the morning to go back to work. It was only those who were very

21 conscientious who spent the nights there where they were supposed to.

22 Q. The Muslim detainees were never allowed to play truant and go

23 drink in villages, were they? Security for them was much tighter.

24 A. As for security measures, they were the responsibility of the

25 persons who escorted them, who brought them to the farm to work. In the

Page 6280

1 summertime, there was more work and more people were required. They

2 volunteered because they wanted extra cigarettes and extra food. Both

3 prisoners -- both Serbs and Muslims were taken there to work, and if there

4 was drink available to one, there was drink available to all.

5 Q. Are you saying that Muslim detainees played truant, that you know

6 of specific instances where Muslim detainees were allowed to go drinking

7 when they went out to the farm? You know that personally?

8 A. I said it was forbidden to everyone to consume alcohol. If anyone

9 did that, they did it on the sly. If there was only one guard, he

10 couldn't be everywhere at the same time. He couldn't see to it that

11 anybody -- that everybody was in their proper place. It was a large

12 area. It was a farm. There were 30.000 hens, cows, a pig farm. Lots of

13 places to cover and to supervise. It was forbidden to them, of course,

14 but if they did it, they did it on the sly, hiding.

15 Q. Most of the 25 or 27 convicted Serb prisoners at the KP Dom went

16 to work at the farm, right? Almost all of them, in fact.

17 A. Let me tell you this: Two or three of them were not allowed

18 because they were chronic alcoholics. They were not allowed to go out.

19 And while myself -- while I was working there, I knew that those two or

20 three were not allowed to go into the -- onto the farm. They had to

21 return to the KP Dom.

22 Q. But they went to work at the farm and then went back to the KP

23 Dom, even those two or three, right?

24 A. No. Those who were punished were punished for violations of house

25 rules. They couldn't go outside the perimeter to work.

Page 6281

1 Q. While you were working at the farm, you were working primarily

2 with the convicted Serb prisoners, right?

3 A. That was our main work post.

4 Q. You were sent to work at the KP farm as part of your wartime

5 assignment, right?

6 A. The command assigned me. In fact, it was Novica Mojovic who sent

7 a request that if I could, I should be sent there to work.

8 Q. But you were still under military command, right? Your status in

9 that regard had not changed when you were transferred to the farm, had it?

10 A. No, my status didn't change because I was a military conscript.

11 Q. You described the shifts that you worked and that was a 6.00 till

12 6.00 shift. All the guards worked that shift; is that right?

13 A. All the guards who worked, worked that way. That was the way the

14 shifts changed during my time. I don't know what -- how it went after I

15 left.

16 Q. And when there was a change in shift, as you went off shift you

17 would have to sign out; or if something had happened unusual during that

18 shift, you'd have to make a report of it, right, so the next shift coming

19 in would know? Wasn't that regular procedure?

20 A. As far as our shifts are concerned, at least in my job, once I was

21 free to go home, I didn't have to make any reports any more. If there was

22 anything to tell, we told each other verbally. There were no notebooks

23 and no registers. There was no need to put anything, anything in writing.

24 Q. But you would inform the next group of guards, the next shift,

25 what had happened - you just said that - verbally, and that's so they know

Page 6282













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6283

1 things to look out for or things that had changed during your shift,

2 right?

3 A. If anything had happened, it was usually our observations. Our

4 main concern was to prevent an escape. If a bar in defence had not been

5 sawn apart or something like that, that was our main concern. That was

6 the only thing we could tell each other, if anything.

7 Q. Speaking of escapes, isn't it true that in May there was talk of

8 possibly somebody trying to organise an escape and so security was put on

9 alert?

10 A. As far as that is concerned, the service was not put in the state

11 of alert, and in all the 20 years I worked there, there was not a single

12 escape. Those are stories, grapevine, gossip. I don't know of any

13 escapes.

14 Q. Nevertheless, land mines were put into the KP Dom around the back

15 toward the furniture factory, right? That happened while you were there.

16 A. About land mines, the part of the compound which is apart from the

17 building nearer of factory, since it was impossible to provide external

18 security of the wall and the area around the wall - you couldn't shoot

19 because you could shoot the guard - that is probably the reason why that

20 was done. Only the front part of the building could be secured physically

21 by guards. That's what I heard.

22 Q. Those land mines were put in while you were at the KP Dom, right?

23 People came in and put the land mines in while you were there. The answer

24 is yes.

25 A. I told you that the mines were put there.

Page 6284

1 Q. You mentioned that there were times when Muslims, Muslim detainees

2 were released, and you gave us the name of somebody. It's true, isn't it,

3 that Muslim detainees during the time that you were there in 1992 were

4 taken out and not brought back?

5 A. It's true that in the month of May, Asim Isanovic was detained

6 down there, and the military command later released him, through what

7 channels I don't know. But anyway, he got permission to leave the

8 territory and go to Montenegro, to the town of Bar to his brother's, and

9 that is because -- I know this because Asim Isanovic has a house near my

10 father's, and that's how I know this.

11 Q. Sir, you told us, you told us these details already. The answer

12 was just yes. Please keep your answers short, all right?

13 Mr. Asim Isanovic was not the only Muslim who was released or

14 taken out of KP Dom, right?

15 A. You know, that's all I know. There's nothing more that I know.

16 I'm telling you the truth.

17 Q. You don't know that some other Muslims were released, either

18 individually or in groups? You don't know that?

19 A. I don't know about those things.

20 Q. You never saw groups of Muslims being taken out for exchange? You

21 never saw that while you were standing at the front door to the

22 administrative building?

23 A. Sometime in July - I don't know the date - I was on duty that day,

24 a group was taken out. I don't know how many people there were in the

25 group. They were put on a bus, and they were taken for an exchange to

Page 6285

1 Cajnice because Green Berets from Gorazde had captured a number of Serbs,

2 so this exchange could take place.

3 I later heard that this group was brought back because the Muslims

4 had refused to exchange the captured Serbs for these people. That's what

5 I heard later. That's what I've been told, because I wasn't on duty when

6 they returned.

7 Q. You didn't ever see people being taken out for exchange, being put

8 on military vehicles and being driven away? Never, ever saw that?

9 A. I didn't see that. The people who were taken away, they were

10 taken away in a bus. As far as I can remember, it was a bus.

11 Q. You remember it was a bus because you saw it? How else do you

12 remember that it was a bus?

13 A. It's been a long time. You forget such things. Details -- some

14 details stick in your memory, others fade. I forgot a lot of things from

15 that time.

16 Q. If you came and worked in the morning shift at 6.00, the people

17 who had been working in the night shift would tell you what had happened

18 during the night, right?

19 A. I didn't need to say anything unless it concerned security.

20 Q. If people had come in during the night who were unauthorised, you

21 would hear that from the night-shift guards when you came in the morning,

22 right?

23 A. We were not duty-bound to inform one another about such things.

24 Q. But in all likelihood, as a matter of efficiency and professional

25 courtesy, your colleagues would tell you about what had happened during

Page 6286

1 the night if something like that had happened, right? If unauthorised

2 persons had tried to break in, you would hear about that in the morning,

3 right?

4 A. As for me personally, I never heard anything of the kind, and I

5 don't know about anything of the kind.

6 Q. The metal gate was always locked, right, of the administrative

7 building into the compound?

8 A. I don't know whether it was locked, because when I was entering,

9 the guy who was there opened it for me. I cannot know that it was always

10 locked.

11 Q. Was the door to the administrative building from the outside

12 locked?

13 A. The entrance to the administrative building was not locked.

14 Q. So anybody who wanted to walk into the administrative building

15 could do so?

16 A. I don't know what you mean. I don't understand your question.

17 Q. If somebody wanted to walk in from the street, he could do that,

18 right?

19 A. You couldn't come in from the street if you had no business in the

20 building. Passersby couldn't just enter into the building.

21 Q. You patrolled the outside of the KP Dom and so you were the first

22 barrier that a person walking into the administrative building would face,

23 right?

24 A. I was the first person they came across, or perhaps my colleague

25 who worked with me. I didn't say I worked alone. We worked in pairs,

Page 6287

1 because it was a long stretch that we had to cover.

2 Q. And if you and your colleague saw somebody that you knew was not

3 authorised to come in, you would have to stop that person, right?

4 A. Such persons would have to go back, because they had no business

5 to enter.

6 Q. So you knew that people who worked at KP Dom were allowed in.

7 That was clear.

8 A. Will you please repeat the question?

9 Q. Among the people who were allowed to walk into the administrative

10 building were people who worked inside the KP Dom, right?

11 A. The only people who were allowed to -- they were only allowed to

12 enter the administrative building during working hours. Even staff

13 members couldn't enter the administrative building when they were not on

14 duty. After your working hours, there was no need for you to enter.

15 Q. But there were guards who worked at night, and of course those

16 guards were allowed in at night, right?

17 A. The guards who worked at night were there, but they couldn't get

18 inside, because it was not allowed to anyone.

19 Q. They couldn't get inside where?

20 A. Will you please say it again?

21 Q. You said the guards at night were there, but they couldn't go

22 inside. What do you mean by "inside"?

23 A. I mean -- do you mean those who were on duty or those who were not

24 on duty?

25 Q. Sir, I'm just asking you to clarify your own words. I don't know

Page 6288

1 what you meant. What did you mean by that they were not allowed inside?

2 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest that you put it to him not so much as

3 an interrogation but as a suggestion. Does he mean that the officers who

4 worked or the guards who worked outside the wall were not allowed inside?

5 We'll get nowhere at this rate, if I may say so.

6 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I will ask it that way, but --

7 JUDGE HUNT: I know you're entitled to ask it, but you're getting

8 nowhere with the questions, and I'm trying to speed this up just a little

9 to get to an issue. I can see where you're headed, at least I think I

10 can, and I won't disclose that, but I think you can get there a little bit

11 more quickly. Take him through each different type of guard that you're

12 interested in.

13 MS. KUO:

14 Q. There were guards who worked there at night, right?

15 A. It depended on what kind of shift you got.

16 Q. There's a night shift that goes from 6.00 p.m. until 6.00 a.m.,

17 right? Yes or no?

18 A. The shift existed, just as I said, from 6.00 p.m. to 6.00 a.m.

19 Q. Was there an outside guard working that night-time shift?

20 A. Outside which building? You mean outside the administrative

21 building?

22 Q. Sir, you've told us that there was an internal guard and an

23 external guard, and I'm simply asking you -- you explained that you did

24 that -- you were the external guard, sometimes you worked during the

25 daytime, and I'm simply asking you, during the night-time shift, if there

Page 6289













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6290

1 was an external guard as well.

2 A. Yes, there was external security at night.

3 Q. Was there an inside guard as well during the night-time shift?

4 A. There must have been internal security at night, during night

5 shift.

6 Q. And when you said earlier that the guard was not allowed inside,

7 did you mean that the external guard was not allowed inside?

8 A. I meant that those who were working outside in external security

9 were not allowed to go in, inside.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, having got there now, may I ask you, not

11 with any sense of censure, but how long do you think you will be with this

12 witness?

13 MS. KUO: It's extremely difficult, Your Honour. I was hoping to

14 finish today, but the answers have been three times as long as I

15 anticipated.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I can understand your problem, but I'm leading up to

17 this. The next we have is a doctor, and I would be very loath to think

18 that he would be caught part heard over the week's adjournment. Would it

19 be appropriate to interrupt your cross-examination of this witness and

20 take the doctor first in the morning so that he can be assured of a

21 departure?

22 MS. KUO: I have no problem with that. Actually, the next two

23 witnesses are doctors.

24 JUDGE HUNT: I thought only one of them was.

25 MS. KUO: Both are doctors, and I anticipate that the questioning

Page 6291

1 will be short.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, let's see if we can get two of them in.

3 MS. KUO: Yes. I have no problem with interrupting this

4 cross-examination.

5 JUDGE HUNT: What about that, Mr. Bakrac? Would you have any

6 objection to interposing your two next witnesses before the

7 cross-examination of this witness continues, so as to ensure that they are

8 able to return to their homes and not have to come back later?

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't mind. If I

10 understood you correctly, you mean tomorrow's work, because we've almost

11 finished today. But if my learned friend Ms. Kuo has not many questions

12 left, perhaps we can deal with them during the morning session, and in

13 that case I don't think the doctors would take up much time either,

14 because the Defence only intends to deal with their part of

15 responsibilities at the KP Dom, that is, medical assistance. And in our

16 view, and according to our plan, that will not take up much time. So I

17 believe that we can finish with the doctors tomorrow as well, before the

18 end of working hours.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure you understood what Ms. Kuo said. What

20 she said was she would have very few questions of the doctors, that she

21 doesn't know how long she will take with this witness, because there is

22 obviously a difficulty in some form of communication there. You've shown

23 one of -- the next witness is a two-hour evidence in chief and the other

24 one is a one-and-a-half-hour evidence in chief. I think, if I may say so,

25 it would be very unwise to continue with the cross-examination of this

Page 6292

1 witness until we've disposed of those two witnesses.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence does not

3 mind starting with the doctors tomorrow. I think their testimony will be

4 even shorter than we had envisaged, perhaps not even two hours. If the

5 Prosecution agrees, we can start with the doctors tomorrow and then devote

6 the rest of the time to the cross-examination of this witness.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I think that's what we'll do, then. We'll adjourn

8 now until 9.30 tomorrow.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of May

11 2001, at 9.30 a.m.