Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6611

1 Wednesday, 30 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.47 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is case number IT-97-25-T,

8 the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: The late start this morning was caused by the traffic

10 disruption relating to the corruption conference across the way.

11 Yes, Mr. Vasic. You proceed, please.

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

13 Examined by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Q. Yesterday we talked about your trip towards the village on the 8th

17 of April, 1992. You told us that you had managed to pass the second

18 roadblock as well that had been put up in the part of Foca that is called

19 Aladza. Can you tell us who manned this roadblock and were the people

20 manning this roadblock armed?

21 A. I'm sorry. I haven't got anything on my screen.

22 Q. Please go ahead.

23 A. I said yesterday that there were armed men at this roadblock and

24 they searched me and my family and the vehicle. They were probably

25 looking for weapons. Since they didn't find any, they let me pass. They

Page 6612

1 were fair.

2 Then I continued my journey directly to the village. That's about

3 17 or 18 kilometres away. There weren't any problems whatsoever.

4 Q. Do you know which ethnicity these people who manned the roadblock

5 in Aladza belonged to?

6 A. They were Muslims. This is a purely Muslim neighbourhood.

7 Q. You said that you arrived to the village with your family. How

8 much time did you spend at the village with your family? You were there

9 until when?

10 A. I stayed in the village until sometime between the 15th and 20th

11 of April. Then a few soldiers came with the following piece of

12 information: That all military conscripts had to report to the unit.

13 Q. Tell me, please: Where did you report to then?

14 A. Because of my inability to return to Foca where my war assignment

15 was, I remained there at the village. However, a few days later they

16 carried out some kind of organisation. Soldiers came from other villages

17 too and we all went to Preljuca. That's a hill, an elevation, sort of.

18 It's about three hours away on foot.

19 Q. Were you issued any weapons then?

20 A. Yes. At a place called Okoliste, there's a church there. People

21 who did not have any weapons were issued weapons. The organisation was

22 quite bad. There were no uniforms except for people who already wore

23 them. Most people wore civilian clothes, including myself.

24 Q. Can you tell me until when you were with this unit at Preljuca?

25 A. I remained at Preljuca until the beginning of May, the 3rd, 4th,

Page 6613

1 5th, of May, around those dates. I then asked the commander to let me go

2 because my family was in the village, and we had already heard there over

3 the radio that people who would not report for their work obligations

4 would remain jobless. Since my wife was employed too, I planned to take

5 her and we were informed that it was possible to return to town.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note. Could the witness's

7 microphones please be brought closer to him.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes. You've just been asked to have

9 your microphones brought closer.

10 Q. So you said that on the 3rd or 4th of May you returned to town.

11 What did you find in your apartment when you returned to Foca with your

12 family?

13 A. On the 3rd or 4th, I returned from Preljuca to the village, and

14 then three or four days after that, after I checked how I could get to

15 town, because it was still unsafe and my children were with me, I was

16 wondering whether I should go on foot or ... I decided -- we got into the

17 car and we reached town without any problems on the way.

18 Q. Did you reach your apartment in Foca?

19 A. Yes. I came to the apartment. There weren't any problems

20 whatsoever. Before I reached the apartment, I realised that the town was

21 badly damaged, houses were burned, windows shattered. There weren't any

22 pedestrians in town except for a person who would hurry by. Some military

23 men, vehicles that were speeding by. And I came to the apartment. We

24 entered the apartment. Almost everything had been destroyed there. Not

25 many things were taken away; however, not a single window pane was left in

Page 6614

1 my apartment. Since I lived in Donje Polje, shells were falling all

2 around the building and everything was shattered.

3 Q. After you returned to Foca, were you mobilised again in some unit?

4 A. I stayed there until the 12th or 13th of May in order to organise

5 life for my children. They allowed me to do that. I put some plastic on

6 the windows, even some glass, cleaned up the place, and then we left I

7 think around the 14th of May to a place called Previla. The company was

8 called Donje Polje. That's where I lived and that's how it was

9 organised. People had to be in the unit that belonged to the place that

10 they were from, so I therefore did not return to Preljuca.

11 Q. Can you tell us until when you stayed with this unit at its

12 positions?

13 A. The position at Previla, the hills around Previla. Borovac,

14 Stolac, Kace, these are some elevations. I stayed there until the

15 beginning of September 1992.

16 Q. At the beginning of September 1992, did you return to Foca?

17 A. The commander of my company informed me that I should go back to

18 Foca and report at the KP Dom.

19 Q. Before returning to Foca, did you return the weapons that you

20 had? Were you demobilised?

21 A. Yes. I returned my weapons, but not my equipment, the clothes I

22 was wearing. They didn't ask for that.

23 Q. When you came to the KP Dom, that is to say, in September 1992,

24 who did you report to?

25 A. I reported to Mr. Micun Jokanovic. He was my boss before the war

Page 6615

1 too. He was head of the commercial department and I worked for that

2 department before the war and I work for that department even now.

3 Q. Why did you report to Micun Jokanovic precisely?

4 A. I assumed that he was my boss. I was told that I was supposed to

5 drive, so that's why I went to Micun.

6 Q. You were told that you were supposed to drive. That particular

7 job of driver, was that a post that belonged to Micun Jokanovic and the

8 commercial department, and who did this commercial department belong to at

9 that time?

10 A. Yes. I belonged to this commercial department, and the commercial

11 department belonged to -- I mean, it was organised in the following way:

12 Above the commercial department was the director of the economic unit. We

13 did not have a director then. This job was carried out by Mr. Milorad

14 Krnojelac. Micun explained that to me.

15 Q. Do you remember what Micun Jokanovic told you when you arrived at

16 the KP Dom regarding your duties, and did he tell you anything about the

17 functions of Milorad Krnojelac?

18 A. Yes. He called me in and said, "We have to go and see Mr. Milorad

19 Krnojelac to reach an agreement, because we don't have a director. No

20 director has been appointed and the organisation is not the same as before

21 the war. Whatever we need to do now should be discussed with him."

22 Q. You said anything that you do. Did he mean the service in which

23 you performed your compulsory work order at the time, your work

24 obligation?

25 A. Yes, that's precisely what he meant.

Page 6616

1 Q. With Mr. Micun Jokanovic, did you ever discuss who manages the

2 part of the prison where the Muslim detainees were?

3 A. Yes, later, on our various trips when we were travelling. Not on

4 that occasion. On that occasion he went to see Mr. Milorad Krnojelac in

5 his office. He informed him that I was there and that I was going to see

6 him. We did have a discussion then, talking about what needed to be done

7 for the economy. It was said that there was a lot of work to be done.

8 There were two drivers from before who were much older than I was, and

9 they were not able to travel far. It was said that a lot of travelling

10 needed to be done towards Yugoslavia, in that direction, and that that's

11 the sort of work that we were going to do.

12 Q. You said you talked to Micun Jokanovic later about who was

13 managing the part of the prison where the Muslim detainees were. Can you

14 tell us what Micun Jokanovic told you on that occasion?

15 A. Well, he explained briefly that Mr. Krnojelac was managing the

16 Economic Unit and convicts of Serbian ethnicity, and as far as military

17 detainees of Muslim ethnicity were concerned, it was Savo Todovic and the

18 army who were in charge.

19 Q. On the 8th of April, 1992, when you were leaving, you didn't go

20 back to the KP Dom. Were there any convicts left at that time at the KP

21 Dom, those who had been serving their sentences before the war?

22 A. Yes. On the morning of the 8th of April, when I left the KP Dom,

23 it remained standing there as usual.

24 Q. Did you hear later what happened to people who were doing time

25 there? What happened to them after military operations began?

Page 6617













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Page 6618

1 A. Yes. People talk about it still. They were apparently

2 transported across Montenegro, Serbia, and handed over, as I heard, in

3 Zvornik. I don't know whether the Muslim authorities were in that area or

4 something like that.

5 Q. Do you know -- did you hear anything about who headed that

6 transport of convicts which left Foca for Zvornik, as you say?

7 A. I heard. I heard about it. It was then warden Radojica Tesovic,

8 his deputy, Milutin Tijanic, Mitar Rasevic, the guards' commander, and

9 some other policemen. Perhaps I could remember. Miro Prodanovic and

10 others.

11 Q. Did you hear anything about when Radojica Tesovic returned to Foca

12 after leaving with this transport?

13 A. Yes, I did. I don't know the exact date, but it was sometime in

14 May. I don't know the date.

15 Q. You said you were a driver in the Drina Economic Unit. Which

16 vehicles did you drive at the time when you were doing your work duty

17 there?

18 A. Five or six vehicles. Most of the time I drove vehicles which

19 travelled long distance. The Furgon for furniture shipping, FAP 1620,

20 which has a higher carrying capacity, and depending on the type of

21 commodity that needed to be shipped, I was given that vehicle to drive.

22 Q. You mentioned various types of commodities. What types of goods

23 did you transport?

24 A. When I was driving from the KP Dom, I would get a loaded Furgon or

25 a delivery truck which went to various towns in Yugoslavia and sometimes

Page 6619

1 I drove construction materials from Maglic, also to various places in

2 Yugoslavia. And driving back to the KP Dom, I carried mostly food

3 supplies. With this truck, 1612, I carried mostly fodder, maize

4 et cetera, or I would bring in raw materials and inputs needed for the

5 furniture factory.

6 Q. You said that you shipped out commodities from the KP Dom towards

7 Yugoslavia and brought back other goods. Were those barter deals?

8 A. Yes. As far as I know, the payment system was not operating, so

9 most deals were barter deals. And I never went alone. Somebody always

10 came with me, be it Mr. Milorad Krnojelac himself or one of his associates

11 selected by him, usually Micun Jokanovic, and sometimes Bozo Drakul as

12 well. Bozo Drakul worked in the finance department.

13 Q. You said that Milorad Krnojelac sometimes accompanied you on those

14 trips. Do you know who actually negotiated and contracted all those

15 barter deals across Yugoslavia or with Yugoslavia?

16 A. All major transactions in Yugoslavia at least from what Micun

17 said, and I know this myself too, were negotiated by Mr. Milorad

18 Krnojelac, either alone or jointly with Micun.

19 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Krnojelac travelled to Yugoslavia to

20 negotiate these deals?

21 A. I know that he made several such trips. My colleagues told me

22 that this was the practice even before I joined them, and he travelled

23 with me several times as well.

24 Q. Can you tell me to which particular places you travelled with Mr.

25 Milorad Krnojelac?

Page 6620

1 A. Yes. I remember very well the one occasion when only the two of

2 us went. Our destination was Bileca. There was no oil to be found

3 anywhere in our region, and he found it there and a purchase was made of

4 up to 1.000 litres. I don't know from whom. Then we also went to

5 Podgorica, and once we went to Belgrade. On that occasion, Krnojelac

6 stayed for a while in Belgrade to finish up some business, and I know that

7 he had to visit his own son, who was in the hospital, and his brother's

8 son. He left me a list where I should report. I unloaded the furniture

9 that I had brought and continued on to Pozarevac where I was supposed to

10 pick up some purchases. I think it was pasta, some edible oil, food

11 supplies mainly. And I also had to visit the company called Serbia in

12 Kragujevac, that is the trade company, and I loaded similar goods there.

13 I spent two days on these errands and I returned to Foca two days later.

14 I don't know when Mr. Krnojelac returned.

15 Q. Could you tell me how long would you stay away in those places

16 where you travelled, Niksic, Podgorica, Bileca, Serbia? How long would

17 these journeys take, except on this occasion when you already told us how

18 long you were away?

19 A. Well, Bileca is not far away. We returned on the same day. I

20 remember in Podgorica, or rather, in Niksic, we spent the night when we

21 were travelling to Podgorica. We had a problem with the loading. The

22 concentrate which was being prepared in some privately owned mixer. The

23 name of the owner was Dzoko

24 Q. You had some problems with loading in Niksic. Did you have

25 problems with loading goods some other time? Did it ever happen that you

Page 6621

1 couldn't pick up the goods that you had come for?

2 A. Yes, all sorts of things happened. It would be too long a story

3 to tell you about all the things that happened to us on those journeys,

4 regardless of the decency of our business partners, who had been our

5 partners from before the war and received us well. Legislation changed

6 and we were often stopped by the police in Serbia and Montenegro, and they

7 would ban us from circulation. Sometimes they would prevent us from

8 unloading the goods we were carrying. It turned out we needed some

9 special approvals. There was a lot of red tape involved. Laws kept

10 changing all the time. New bans were introduced, sanctions. We took some

11 byroads which we had never taken before in order to pass through somehow.

12 That's the kind of thing that happened.

13 Q. Do you know who else accompanied Mr. Milorad Krnojelac apart from

14 you, and I mean drivers from the Economic Unit.

15 A. Yes. I know that he travelled with Arsenije Krnojelac and Milivoj

16 Drakul, especially during the period before I came to the KP Dom. They

17 told me that that had been the practice.

18 Q. Do you know if any aid arrived from other penal institutions in

19 Serbia for the KP Dom Foca?

20 A. Yes. I think I mentioned this. The time when we travelled from

21 Belgrade, we were carrying that aid. I wasn't loading it -- I'm sorry.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter lost this answer, or rather did

23 not understand this answer. Could it be repeated.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I apologise, sir. I see on the screen that the interpreter lost

Page 6622













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Page 6623

1 part of your answer, so could you please repeat your answer to this

2 question.

3 A. I already mentioned when I left from Belgrade going to Pozarevac

4 that these goods that I had loaded onto the vehicle were given by the KP

5 Dom in Pozarevac. However, it was actually loaded in some other place,

6 but we were told that this aid was given by the KP Dom in Pozarevac. I

7 did not bring in the aid from Krusevac, but I heard that the KP Dom from

8 Krusevac had also given some aid.

9 Q. While you worked as a driver, did you take any goods from the

10 Drina farm?

11 A. Yes. I brought it and I would take it away. I would bring

12 concentrated cattle feed, corn, everything that was needed, and from the

13 farm we took -- well, I did it a bit more rarely, but there were several

14 occasions when milk and eggs were brought, produce from there. That's it,

15 for the most part.

16 Q. Where did you take these eggs and milk that you just mentioned?

17 A. We had a shop that we still have, and some of the milk and eggs

18 were taken to that shop and the rest to the KP Dom, both milk and eggs.

19 Q. Do you know why there was less milk taken to the KP Dom as opposed

20 to eggs, as you just mentioned?

21 A. There were small quantities of milk in the first place; however, I

22 heard that orders had been issued that milk had to be given to the

23 children in town. Let me mention another thing. When I would deliver

24 milk in the morning, there were immense crowds there: Women, old people,

25 waiting to buy milk and eggs.

Page 6624

1 Q. Do you know, when you went to the farm, whether there were still

2 persons there who were serving their sentences that had been passed

3 according to final judgements pronounced before the war, and do you

4 remember any of them, if there were any?

5 A. Yes. I don't know the number - five, six - but I remember Vucila,

6 Dzoko, a married couple, man and wife. I've forgotten just now. I also

7 know that there were two Muslim women from the women's prison. They were

8 cooking there. There was a family too, a family of Muslims. They were

9 called Maslo. Elderly people, middle-aged people, children, I saw them

10 there.

11 Q. Were these Muslims detained there? Were they brought into custody

12 there or did they come of their own free will?

13 A. How they came, I don't know. I wasn't there. I didn't talk about

14 that to anyone. But they were not detained. I saw them out there. The

15 children were playing. These middle-aged people, there were two men.

16 They also did some work there. There were also two youngish women. I

17 don't know whether they were their wives or sisters or whatever. They

18 also did some work. They were collecting eggs, things like that. I think

19 there were two elderly people. They didn't do anything. They were just

20 staying there. I don't know how to put this. It is a prison, but some

21 kind of an open prison. I wouldn't know.

22 Q. Thank you. You said that you drove a Furgon, a truck, other

23 vehicles. Where would you park these vehicles when you would return from

24 your trips?

25 A. Primarily at the metalwork shop, for safety reasons. It was

Page 6625

1 unsafe outside because of the war and lots of things were going on: Theft,

2 things like that.

3 Q. At the metalwork shop, was there a mechanic's shop?

4 A. At the very end of the metalwork shop there was a car repair

5 shop. It's still there. There are two pits there for repairing cars, and

6 that's where we would park our vehicles.

7 Q. Could you tell me what the procedure was when you would notice

8 that something was wrong with a vehicle that you would bring back to the

9 metalwork shop?

10 A. There was a civilian at the metalwork shop, at least when I came

11 there, and later too. Relja Goljanin. Micun told me about that: Report

12 to Relja. That's where we repaired vehicles. Muslims worked there.

13 Q. After that, when you would report that there was something wrong

14 with a vehicle, would the vehicle be fixed?

15 A. Yes, for the most part, except if there was a really big problem

16 and there were no spare parts. These were very good mechanics,

17 exceptionally good. They managed even to do the impossible, as far as I

18 could tell.

19 Q. For example, when the exhaust pipe would be damaged on a vehicle

20 that you were driving, could these mechanics repair that?

21 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, they would repair that.

22 Q. Did you or your colleagues drive vehicles with broken exhaust

23 pipes at that time?

24 A. No. No. No, I did not, never. There was no reason for that

25 either.

Page 6626

1 Q. Do you know whether your colleagues, the other drivers, did that?

2 A. As far as I know, no, in that period when I was there.

3 Q. While you worked as a driver at the Economic Unit, can you tell us

4 what your working hours were?

5 A. Working hours for drivers were relative. It depended on the work

6 involved. You would go on a trip and also locally. It depended on what

7 had to be done: Loading, unloading goods. A job, once started, had to be

8 completed. That's what our orders were and that's what we did. That's

9 the way it always is, wartime and peacetime.

10 Q. Since you said that you contacted Mr. Krnojelac, do you know what

11 his working hours were?

12 A. Yes. The entire administration of the civilian part worked from

13 7.00 to 1500 hours, that is to say, the commercial department, the

14 administration, where women worked, et cetera.

15 Q. While you worked as a driver, did you take your meals at the

16 kitchen of the KP Dom?

17 A. Yes, but very seldom, very seldom. When we were on the road, we

18 took food with us, canned food, eggs, things like that. We didn't get any

19 per diems or anything. And then also when we went to the farm, we would

20 eat there. So very seldom. I went in there to eat a few times. I don't

21 know how many times.

22 Q. Can you tell me whether you remember what Milorad Krnojelac wore

23 when you saw him?

24 A. I remember, yes. It varied. It varied, like me and everybody

25 else. Sometimes civilian clothes, sometimes uniform, sometimes a

Page 6627













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Page 6628

1 combination. It depended on who had what. Nobody bought anything.

2 Somebody had remained homeless. Also clothes would get torn. For

3 example, I would travel around Yugoslavia wearing soldier's boots because

4 I didn't have any other footwear.

5 Q. When you saw Milorad Krnojelac, did he have any weapons on him?

6 A. No. I never noticed that, no.

7 Q. Did you ever hear that Milorad Krnojelac's house had burned down

8 during the war operations?

9 A. Yes, I knew, and of course it was his immediate neighbourhood.

10 Those houses had burned down at the very beginning of the war, Serb and

11 Muslim houses, most of them. There were quite a few houses in Donje Polje

12 that had burned down.

13 Q. Did you ever drive materials that were used for the repair of that

14 house to that house?

15 A. Yes. I didn't drive that much to the house, but I used an FAP

16 Kiper truck to drive things from there, as the house had burned down,

17 there was a lot of rubble. And then we would load that rubble onto the

18 truck and take it to the dump.

19 Q. When you took that rubble away from the house, do you remember who

20 you saw there, who you saw working there or who you saw there as simply

21 being there?

22 A. I do remember. Four men of Muslim ethnicity loaded this on. I

23 know Mustafa Telo. I talked to him a bit more then, and his son. I know

24 this man from before the war, because he had a restaurant. And I don't

25 know the fourth one.

Page 6629

1 Q. You said to us that you talked to Mustafa Telo. Do you remember

2 this conversation? Do you remember what he said to you?

3 A. Yes, except for the usual things: Asking about our respective

4 families, both ways. He told me that he was satisfied in terms of how he

5 was doing. "It's easier for me. My son is here," he said to me. He said

6 that he had actually volunteered to work there, that it was good for him

7 there, except for better food and cigarettes and coffee and even drinks,

8 whoever wanted any, the most important thing, as he said to me, was this

9 fair treatment. He had words of praise for the entire family.

10 Q. Sir, you said when you were demobilised, when you returned the

11 weapons that you had been issued, you came to the Economic Unit. Until

12 when were you a driver at the Economic Unit after this September 1992 when

13 you came to the KP Dom?

14 A. Yes. The 19th of December, 1992, a Muslim offensive was launched

15 against the village of Josanica then. I was at home then. The military

16 police came to my home saying that I should come with them. I said to

17 them that I was working at the KP Dom, that I had a work obligation

18 there. They showed me a list, and I was on that list. He gave me two

19 hours to get ready and to come to a particular place, and that's the way

20 it was. Then we were driven in the direction of Josanica. I was involved

21 in these terrible things: The collection of corpses, the carrying of

22 wounded. I didn't see any wounded men. It was mostly dead people. I

23 don't know who organised all of this. Searching the woods for those who

24 were missing, things like that. I had some relatives there too. I

25 attended funerals. This went on for several days.

Page 6630

1 After that, the military organised some reserve positions there,

2 not only on that line where Josanica is, but at several places, and that's

3 where they dispatched me too then.

4 Q. Is that to say that you were mobilised again then by the military,

5 and until when were you at these positions that you mentioned?

6 A. Yes. I remained with a few interruptions. We would be there for

7 five or six days and then we would be at home for five or six days, and

8 that was until mid-February 1993.

9 Q. What happened in mid-February 1993?

10 A. Well, yes. A similar procedure as in the beginning of September

11 1992. Yet again I was sent to the KP Dom. And then I continued doing the

12 same job again.

13 Q. Did you again return the weapons that you had been issued with at

14 the military unit?

15 A. Yes. I said the procedure was the same, the same, the same. I

16 just leave my rifle and I take the rest.

17 Q. You said to us that in mid-February 1993 you returned to the post

18 of driver in the Economic Unit. How long were you driver there this

19 time? Did you go to the front again?

20 A. Yes. In 1994, twice: Once in the spring and once -- was it the

21 autumn? Whatever. At any rate, when the war ended I was at the front

22 line. It was Treskavica. However, I can mention that later on this was

23 done in a different way. Throughout Foca, a battalion of work obligation

24 was organised. I was there, and then they called up people when

25 necessary. That's the way they had put it.

Page 6631

1 Q. When was this work obligation battalion formed? Which year was

2 this?

3 A. No. No. I can't remember. I know that the workers of Maglic

4 were there, teachers. At any rate, from all work organisations. I can't

5 remember when it was established. I don't know. I didn't see this piece

6 of paper. But I know that we were called up. That's when this situation

7 was at Treskavica. I can't remember all these dates really.

8 Q. You said to me that Treskavica was in 1994, 1995. Is that when

9 this battalion was formed?

10 A. Yes, that's when it functioned, but I don't know when it was

11 formed. I was at Rogoj, together with the teachers: This was 1994, I

12 think, the summer of 1994, and school didn't even start on time. They

13 stayed longer. There was some kind of a situation there. The artillery

14 was there, the front line was far away, and we were sort of a back-up for

15 this artillery.

16 Q. Since you worked as a driver at the Drina Economic Unit, do you

17 know when Milorad Krnojelac stopped being the director there? When was he

18 released by the Ministry of Justice?

19 A. Well, mid-1993, I think, the beginning of June, something like

20 that.

21 Q. I do apologise. I'm not sure that the transcript is correct. I'm

22 going to ask you once again: Which month did you say?

23 A. July, I think.

24 Q. How come you know that?

25 A. Well, I wasn't there all the time, but I did come, and I saw the

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Page 6633

1 new management coming in, and Mr. Krnojelac was still coming at the time.

2 It was probably a replacement, and I don't know how long this replacement

3 process took.

4 Q. After this replacement, who did you address for the work you did

5 with Milorad Krnojelac before that?

6 A. Well, Micun Krnojelac was my boss, of course, and Mr. Radojica

7 Tesovic, who came to become director of the Drina Economic Unit.

8 Q. You said Micun Krnojelac. Until now you talked about Micun

9 Jokanovic. Was that --

10 A. A slip of the tongue.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.

12 Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions, and I think

13 it's two minutes to 11.00.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I think we'll wait until after

15 the adjournment.

16 We'll adjourn now until 11.30.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. With your

21 leave, I would like to say that perhaps the Defence counsel have made a

22 technical mistake. We agreed yesterday with the Prosecutor's office that

23 Witness B, who is envisaged to be the last witness, be the next one, and

24 he is entitled to voice distortion. We should have probably told you this

25 yesterday, but as my learned friend told me, she will need the entire time

Page 6634

1 until the lunch break for cross-examination. So I thought perhaps it

2 wouldn't be too late now to announce this in order for us to make the

3 preparations for voice and facial distortion during the lunch break. I

4 apologise once again for this omission.

5 JUDGE HUNT: He already has been granted voice distortion, has he

6 not, if it is a he.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. That could be sorted out during the lunch

9 hour, if you could have him brought in so his voice could be tested.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] He is here already, actually.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour

12 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krsmanovic.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. You told us that before the war you were a driver in the transport

16 unit of the Drina commercial section of the KP Dom; right?

17 A. Yes, I was a truck driver in that firm.

18 Q. This transport unit, was it only a unit serving the Drina

19 commercial department or did you also have to transport prisoners or staff

20 members?

21 A. That vehicle carried only goods.

22 Q. I was not talking about your particular vehicle. I was talking

23 about the transport unit as such. You spoke about -- yesterday you spoke

24 about a pool of drivers called transport unit and I was referring to this

25 transport unit. So these drivers, including you, did you drive prisoners

Page 6635

1 to court or to police, was that another unit?

2 A. Yes. It existed. The transport unit functioned across the

3 board. However, for the transportation of detainees, there existed

4 special vehicles, and it was handled by the police. Whereas I and

5 civilian drivers had other vehicles which belonged to the Economic Unit,

6 and they served the Economic Unit. Whereas the vehicles for

7 transportation of detainees were registered in the name of the KP Dom and

8 they were driven by policemen, except for buses. There were several buses

9 before the war which took detainees out to work sites.

10 Q. How many drivers were in your transport department before the war?

11 A. There were between 30 and 40 vehicles. However, the number of

12 civilian drivers was 6 or 7. Other drivers drove detainees.

13 Q. And these 6 or 7 drivers, how many of them were Muslims?

14 A. 50/50.

15 Q. And during the war, only the Serb drivers remained in their jobs

16 as drivers; right?

17 A. Yes, that's correct. There was not a single Muslim driver.

18 Q. The Muslims had to leave Foca; right?

19 A. Well, what happened, happened. When I came to Foca for the first

20 time, there were some remaining Muslims. I don't know how many. However,

21 not a single Muslim worked in any of the enterprises, as far as I know.

22 Q. And the three drivers that remained, the Serb drivers, that was

23 you, Mr. Arso Krnojelac, and who was the third one?

24 A. The third one was Milivoj Drakul.

25 Q. Was there also a driver, at least sometime a driver with the name

Page 6636

1 Milic?

2 A. Oh, yes. There were two Milics. One of them was a policeman who

3 drove that special vehicle called Maria, although I'm not sure he drove

4 it during the war. And the other Milic, in the beginning of the war -- I

5 wasn't there at the time. I drove that vehicle later. This Dragica Milic

6 is a psychologist by occupation, and he drove that vehicle, FAP 1612,

7 while I was on the front line.

8 Q. Your special task before the war was delivering furniture to

9 Yugoslavia, right, to Serbia and Montenegro? That was your specialty,

10 right?

11 A. I don't know quite understand. You mean a special task that only

12 I performed?

13 Q. No. That was what you did. You usually drove furniture to Serbia

14 and Montenegro? We are talking now about your job.

15 A. Before the war, I drove everywhere, and during the war, yes, it's

16 correct. During the war I drove to Belgrade more than the others did,

17 because I used to work in Belgrade for a while. They knew I knew the

18 city. Whereas the other drivers, both Serb and Muslim, didn't like going

19 there. They found it difficult to find their way around.

20 Q. And during the war, you continued to drive to Belgrade and other

21 towns in Serbia and Montenegro? That remained your major work; right?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. And it was before and also during the war that Mr. Micun Jokanovic

24 actually assigned the special deliveries and trips to you; is that

25 correct?

Page 6637













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6638

1 A. Yes, that is correct. He was my chief both before and during the

2 war and I always received all my orders from him.

3 Q. And you would use, before the war and during the war, you would

4 use a particular Furgon freight vehicle?

5 A. Yes, but it was not always the same vehicle. We had another man

6 down there who was not a chief, but he was a clerk in the transportation

7 unit who assigned various trips to drivers.

8 Q. And who was that? Can you tell us his name?

9 A. Sometime up to 1989, it was Hamid Besevic, or 1990, and then he

10 was replaced Risto Matovic until the beginning of the war.

11 Q. And during the war, did Hamovic remain in this position or did

12 someone else take over?

13 A. No. There was no one down there during the war. Micun handled

14 all of this.

15 Q. For transport of furniture, would you always use Furgon freight

16 vehicles or also this vehicle that you called FAP 1612 [As interpreted]

17 A. Well, most of the time I used the Furgon, but whenever a vehicle

18 of higher carrying capacity was needed, because the Furgon could carry

19 up to 4 tonnes and the other one could carry 9 tonnes, we used this FAP

20 1612, but we used it less than the other one.

21 Q. And the Furgon truck, does it also have a number? Is there a

22 vehicle Furgon 1620?

23 A. No. In all the papers and in the circulation licence, it just

24 says FAP Furgon. I think, if there was any other name, it was Dubrava,

25 because it was the Dubrava company in Zagreb which manufactured it.

Page 6639

1 Q. I am of course not familiar with the trucks in the former

2 Yugoslavia. You said FAP Furgon. So an FAP is a Furgon vehicle?

3 A. I don't know how to explain this. FAP is the automobile factory

4 in Priboj which manufactures vehicles. FAP manufactures both cars,

5 trucks, and buses. And this particular Furgon was a vehicle specialised

6 for carrying furniture. It's rather long and pretty wide. It can take in

7 7 1/2 to 8-metre objects and you can put in furniture, bookshelves,

8 et cetera.

9 Q. Yes. Thank you. How many passenger cars did the KP Dom have?

10 Can you tell me that?

11 A. You mean before the war?

12 Q. Before the war, please.

13 A. There was one bus with 28 seats. There were two smaller buses

14 seating 16 to 17. But one of them was always in Sarajevo on a work site

15 owned by the Drina Economic Unit. It was a permanent work site because

16 the Drina Economic Unit was carrying out works there. There was a

17 Mercedes sedan, the warden's vehicle. There was a Lada. [As interpreted]

18 There was one Volkswagen. Whether it was a Golf or a Jetta, I don't know.

19 It was also in Sarajevo on the work site, also owned by the Drina Economic

20 Unit. And there was a Maria owned by the KP Dom. And I forgot to say

21 that the Mercedes was also owned by the KP Dom.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just want to say that

24 on page 24, line 16 in the transcript, it says Lada, whereas the witness

25 said there were two Ladas. That's the only difference between the

Page 6640

1 transcript and what he actually said.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Do you want to follow that up?


4 Q. Were there two Ladas or one Lada?

5 A. Yes, there were two Ladas, and they belonged to the Drina Economic

6 Unit and they were registered in its name. One of them drove the director

7 occasionally, the other one was used by the head of the commercial

8 department and filled in on other journeys whenever necessary.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.


11 Q. Sir, you mentioned that the warden had a vehicle at his disposal.

12 What kind of vehicle was that, before the war?

13 A. It was a Mercedes. I don't remember the series. I just know it

14 was a Mercedes.

15 Q. And during the war, which car was assigned to the warden?

16 A. When I came to the KP Dom, I saw the warden had a red Yugo. I

17 don't know whether it was his private car or not. I never drove that and

18 I don't know in whose name it was registered.

19 Q. Whom did you see driving in the car, the red Yugo?

20 A. Yes. I saw him in that Yugo. He didn't have a driver. He drove

21 it himself.

22 Q. And him, that's Mr. Krnojelac, Milorad; right?

23 A. Right. Right.

24 Q. You said he, that is, Mr. Krnojelac, did not have a driver. He

25 was never driven by a driver around in an official car of the KP Dom; is

Page 6641

1 that what you say?

2 A. Not that I know of. I never drove him except when he travelled

3 with me in the truck on several occasions.

4 Q. Before the war, the Drina Economic Unit had business with certain

5 companies in Montenegro and Serbia, right; they had permanent customers

6 for their products; right?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. And these companies ordered goods produced in the KP Dom, and you,

9 as a driver, drove the products then to these companies; right?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. And these deliveries were agreed upon beforehand; right? You left

12 with the goods and you knew where you had to go, and the customers knew

13 that you were coming; right?

14 A. Yes. It was a well-organised arrangement. A consignment note

15 would be written, handed over, together with the goods. That was our job,

16 and the rest was handled by the bosses.

17 Q. Did you have invoices with you, and did you actually get the

18 payment, or was that done afterwards?

19 A. No. No. I just had this waybill indicating the quantity of

20 goods. I would return a copy, and that's all.

21 Q. You would usually drive alone; right? You wouldn't need anyone

22 from the accountant's or the business apartment with you?

23 A. Before the war, I usually drove alone. Somebody accompanied me

24 only in the event I was supposed to pick up some purchases there. If I

25 was just delivering, then I would go alone.

Page 6642













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6643

1 Q. And you -- those trips to Montenegro and Serbia, those were

2 usually day trips; right? It's not so far to Belgrade and Niksic, or

3 other places; right?

4 A. Well, no. Before the war we used to travel across Yugoslavia, to

5 the south, Nis, Leskovac, or to Belgrade. You could never go and return

6 in one day, because even taking the short cut through Gorazde along the

7 Drina, it was 360 kilometres. It was even against the law to do it in one

8 day, so we took two days. And if we had goods to carry from there and

9 load them at the point of destination, we would stay as long as three

10 days, whereas we would return from shorter trips in the same day, such as

11 Uzice. We were allowed to go there and back in one day.

12 Q. You said that you also brought goods back from these trips, and

13 you said that it was actually raw materials for the furniture factory or

14 fodder or other things for the farm; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that would also be prearranged before you left Foca; right?

17 You would know where to go after the delivery and where to pick up those

18 raw materials or food; right?

19 A. Yes. I would always get a paper where it was written who took

20 contact, the address of the company, telephone numbers. Everything was

21 organised beforehand.

22 Q. Yes, because that's logical and economical to do that; right?

23 A. Yes. That's how it was.

24 Q. And except for the fact that the payment system changed during the

25 war, this same economical and logical practice continued, right, during

Page 6644

1 the war?

2 A. Oh, no. Everything was upset. First of all, telephone lines were

3 down. Confidence was lost among business partners, regardless of the fact

4 that those were old business partners. There appeared new entities,

5 private entrepreneurs. The system of payment transactions changed. When

6 I started working the payment system was down completely. All the deals

7 were exclusively barter deals, back-to-back deals, goods in exchange for

8 other goods. As Micun explained to me, there were even triangular deals,

9 whereas we would drive our commodities to the second partner, the second

10 partner would ship it to someone else, and we would get payment from a

11 third person.

12 Q. So that's understood, and that's why I said except for the payment

13 procedure. But you knew when you left the KP Dom, you had loaded goods

14 for a certain customer and you knew where you would bring them; right?

15 You didn't leave the KP Dom not knowing where to bring what to which firm,

16 right?

17 A. Yes, I knew where I was going. And all this documentation,

18 various papers, as far as I found out from Micun and others, Mr. Krnojelac

19 and others, all that was handled by others. I, as the driver, didn't have

20 to do that. They had to write out customs declarations. There was a lot

21 of red tape, and they handled it all.

22 Q. Yes. And it was all prepared before you left the KP Dom with your

23 truck full of goods; right?

24 A. Well, on the way there, yes. As far as the trip back was

25 concerned, if I was to carry something, documentation was prepared there,

Page 6645

1 and we had to prepare everything for import. It was much harder to get

2 the goods in. They would let you get it out more easily, but it was

3 harder to bring something back. I heard from Micun that there was

4 embezzlement involved. Everyone tried to bypass the law, and new

5 legislation was introduced to fight that, so every shipment of goods had

6 to be accompanied by voluminous documentation.

7 Q. So because this barter deals are actually more complicated to

8 handle than the usual cash business, a lot had to be prepared in advance

9 before you left with the truck? That's what you said; right?

10 A. Yes, probably that's right.

11 Q. You said that you went to work in the KP Dom for the last time

12 before the war on the 8th of April, 1992; right?

13 A. No. On the 8th of April I didn't work. I just came there and

14 left within five minutes, because on the 8th of April nobody worked.

15 Q. But you said you went to work, and that was actually the last time

16 before the war that you went there and you returned home without working,

17 and you only came back in September; right?

18 A. Yes. Yes, that is right.

19 Q. Are you aware that on the 8th of April or even one or two days

20 before, a group of convicts escaped from the KP Dom and that Mr. Tesovic

21 actually let them escape? Are you aware of this?

22 A. I'm aware of the fact that all sorts of things happened. I was

23 not involved in it in any way except that I heard rumours who allowed it,

24 how come. I know that Mr. Tesovic was at Velecevo, at the women's prison,

25 during those critical days. I don't know which day he went there. I

Page 6646

1 heard that Mr. Tijanic was at the Dom and that they were in contact, that

2 the then-deputy warden, Mr. Alija Berberkic was at the Dom. I knew him

3 very well. I don't know about the rest, who else was there. Probably --

4 no, not probably. Certainly the KP Dom service was there, not of the

5 Economic Unit. I doubt that anyone from the Economic Unit was there.

6 There was the police, the rehabilitation people. At any rate, I know from

7 the stories I heard later that both the Serbs and Muslims were there, but

8 who exactly, I can't say.

9 Q. And you also heard that Mr. Tesovic actually ordered that the

10 weapons stored in the KP Dom were destroyed so that they could not be used

11 by any of the combatants; right?

12 A. Yes, I heard that.

13 Q. Mr. Tesovic was a moderate man; right?

14 A. Well, before the war, I was in Mr. Tesovic's office only when he

15 admitted me into the KP Dom. It was a big company, employing 350 persons,

16 and I don't know. I can only guess in terms of some of the stories that

17 went around. I don't know. A good manager.

18 Q. [Realtime transcript read in error "approved"] He disapproved of

19 nationalistic tendencies; right? He was not a member of the SDS or

20 radical parties; right

21 A. I don't think so. I think that before the war, it was the

22 communist party.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you dropped your voice at the

24 beginning of the last question. I think you meant to say disapproved of,

25 didn't you.

Page 6647













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Page 6648

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I said "he disapproved."

2 JUDGE HUNT: You had dropped your voice and the witness may also

3 have misunderstood it.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Obviously you got a wrong translation.

5 Q. I asked you if Mr. Tesovic disapproved of nationalistic tendencies

6 and was not a member of the SDS or other nationalistic parties.

7 A. I think he was not a member of any other party, and I'm convinced,

8 like most of the citizens of both ethnicity -- I'm convinced that most

9 citizens of both ethnicities were against what was happening, and he

10 belonged to that majority.

11 Q. The KP Dom was one of the biggest prisons in the former

12 Yugoslavia, right, and you already mentioned that it had 350 employees.

13 A. Well, I don't know how big the other prisons were. I don't know

14 about that. I knew that there were quite a few prisons, but how big each

15 one was, I don't know. I only came to the Zenica prison. I brought goods

16 there and I took goods from there. I know it's a big prison. To

17 Pozarevac I went during the war and before that. I know that's a big

18 prison, but I didn't visit the others. I don't really know.

19 Q. However, the KP Dom was rather huge, a huge prison?

20 A. Well, yes, yes. There were quite a few civilian employees and

21 there were also convicted persons there. I don't know exactly how many.

22 The number probably varied.

23 Q. To be the warden of such a big prison, that was a highly respected

24 position; right?

25 A. Yes, I think so.

Page 6649

1 Q. You said that the Drina commercial department functioned very well

2 before the war and that's one of the reasons why you went there to work;

3 right?

4 A. Yes. The salaries were good, before the war. That's the way I

5 understood your question. I personally had other reasons. In this

6 Focatrans where I had worked, relations had already been disrupted among

7 the people working there.

8 Q. We do not need to discuss this in detail, but yesterday you said

9 that the Drina Commercial Department functioned well. It was perhaps the

10 best company in the area. That's what you said yesterday. That was what

11 I was referring to. You said that yesterday.

12 A. Yes. Yes, that's right. Good salaries, things like that. Yes.

13 Q. That means Mr. Tesovic did a good job as the warden. He was a

14 successful warden; right?

15 A. Before the war, yes, he was a good warden, and he also had other

16 services that were good, working well. He had a director. He had his

17 associates. Perhaps it's not necessary for me to mention all of them. I

18 knew perhaps not all of them, but quite a few.

19 Q. It was quite natural for the authorities that such a good -- a

20 successful warden would remain in the position during the war, wasn't it?

21 A. At that time I was not there. I don't know what happened, what

22 was going on. However, as far as I know, he was not there when

23 Mr. Krnojelac was appointed.

24 Q. You had a lot of things that happened while you were not there.

25 Did Mr. Tesovic refuse to take the position as the warden? Do you know

Page 6650

1 that?

2 A. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. Tesovic didn't

3 even tell me about this. I talked to him, but he didn't say anything. I

4 don't know.

5 Q. Do you know a person Veselin Cancar?

6 A. Veselin Cancar? Could that perhaps be the person who was in

7 prison in Sarajevo during the war? Is that Veselin Cancar? There was a

8 Cancar. I'm not sure about the first name. Oh, that's it? I didn't know

9 him before. I met him after the war. He came to the KP Dom once,

10 actually, and somebody pointed him out to me and said, "That's the man who

11 was somewhere in prison during the war. I think it was Sarajevo."

12 Q. Are you aware that he refused to become the warden of the KP Dom

13 during the war when this position was offered to him?

14 A. This is the first time I hear that.

15 Q. The deputy of Mr. Tesovic, Mr. Berberkic, a Muslim, he fled Foca

16 in April 1992; right?

17 A. I don't know who went when, because I was not in Foca in April. I

18 went to the village. I don't know how things evolved. Perhaps some

19 detail that somebody told me about, but I was not involved. I don't know

20 about this.

21 Q. But when you came to the KP Dom in September, he was not there any

22 more; he had gone; right?

23 A. No, no, no. He was not there. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. And his position, the deputy warden position, remained vacant for

25 more than a year; right?

Page 6651

1 A. I think not. The position of the deputy? I didn't hear of that,

2 that it existed at all. I know that the office was empty.

3 Q. Where was the office? Where exactly in the building? Do you know

4 that?

5 A. Yes, I know. Tijanic sits there now. That is the office between

6 the office of the warden and the deputy warden's office. There is this

7 small office of the secretary that divides the two, so to speak.

8 Q. You said it was empty during the war, this office of the deputy

9 warden?

10 A. Well, yes, empty. When Tijanic came, he took that office and he

11 sits there, Mr. Milutin Tijanic.

12 Q. And Mr. Krnojelac was sitting in the warden's office during the

13 war; right?

14 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. Who was the director of the Drina economic section, of the entire

16 section? Who was the director before the war?

17 A. Before the war, it was Josip Simovic. No, sorry. Sorry. This

18 was a slip of the tongue. Not Josip. His brother, Milenko.

19 Q. He's a Serb?

20 A. Milenko was the director.

21 Q. And Milenko is a Serb?

22 A. I think he was of Croat ethnicity, I think, or some combination.

23 I'm not sure. I think an ethnic Croat.

24 Q. He was not there during the first -- during the war; right? He

25 also left the KP Dom?

Page 6652













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6653

1 A. Yes. I did not see him after the 8th of April, ever.

2 Q. Do you know what did he do? Did he leave Foca?

3 A. Well, he's not there. I don't know.

4 Q. The position of Mr. Milenko remained also vacant until in summer

5 1993 Mr. Tesovic came back and took this position; right?

6 A. That's correct, and that office was empty too.

7 Q. You have already mentioned that when the war started, the

8 prisoners of -- the prisoners were transferred to Montenegro through

9 Serbia to Zvornik; right?

10 A. Yes. I stated that on the basis of what people were saying.

11 Q. Do you know which drivers drove the trucks in which they were

12 transported?

13 A. No. No, I don't know. I think convicted persons, I think. I'm

14 not sure.

15 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Tesovic, Mr. Tijanic, and Mr. Rasevic

16 accompanied these convicts on their transfer to Zvornik; right?

17 A. Yes, I heard that. There were others too.

18 Q. For the administration of a prison, it is natural to take care of

19 the convicts and to look after their safety, right; it's their job?

20 A. Well, probably that's what they're there for. I'm a driver. But

21 I guess that they have to do their work. Everyone does his own work. I

22 did not go into who was in charge of what. I don't know.

23 Q. And Mr. Rasevic actually returned to his old position after this

24 task was done. He returned to his position as guard commander; right?

25 A. Yes. That's what I heard. And when I returned to the KP Dom, he

Page 6654

1 was there.

2 Q. Mr. Tesovic did also return, but he did not return to the KP Dom

3 compound; right?

4 A. Well, Tesovic talked to me. He went back to the farm.

5 Q. You say he went back to the farm. He was not on the farm before.

6 He was the warden. So to say he went back to the farm ... What did he do

7 on the farm?

8 A. I don't know. I don't know what he did. Probably almost

9 nothing. I really don't know. I wasn't there at the time. When I came,

10 he also went with me, perhaps once or even twice. Once to Kragujevac. So

11 he started getting involved in the work too. But before I came, I don't

12 know.

13 Q. And what position did he have when you started to see him? What

14 did he -- what position did he have?

15 A. I don't know whether he had any special assignment. I know that

16 he took care about food and to be very accurate, he used his friends in

17 order to get food. Tesovic, Krnojelac, Micun, whoever had friends in some

18 town went there to either get something or buy it at a cheaper price. It

19 was a struggle for survival.

20 Q. Mr. Tijanic also did not return to his position in the

21 rehabilitation section; right?

22 A. No, he didn't.

23 Q. What did he do between April 1992 and summer 1993? Do you know

24 that?

25 A. I don't know for sure had a he did. He was with the military, I

Page 6655

1 think. I think he was with the military, but what he was, I don't know.

2 Q. You mentioned that during the mobilisation, you would have had to

3 report. Where would you -- but you couldn't do it because you were not in

4 Foca. Where would you have to report? Would you have to report to the KP

5 Dom?

6 A. I don't know. They were immediately making these announcements

7 over the radio that everybody had to report, military conscripts, that

8 they had to report to certain places. It was announced over the radio

9 that people should report at the places where they lived. That's the kind

10 of announcement that was being made.

11 Q. Where would you have had to report if you could reach Foca? To a

12 military office or to the TO or to the KP Dom?

13 A. I'm not sure. Over the radio they were giving this information.

14 I had not had a war assignment. I did not have my war assignment written

15 down anywhere. I don't know. There was probably this specific place

16 where people were supposed to report to, but I couldn't make it.

17 Q. You said that you were first stationed at Preljuca; right?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. And did you function there as a driver, or what did you do?

20 A. No. No, not a driver; a soldier. They gave me a rifle and guard

21 duty. Some soldiers had taken the position before that, and we came

22 there.

23 Q. And you said that you then got the permission to take your family

24 back to Foca so that your wife could reply to her work obligation; right?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 6656

1 Q. Who --

2 A. No. No. I did not get a certificate of any kind. They just let

3 me go, until I finished all this. My commandering officer was a man I

4 knew, a neighbour.

5 Q. Yes. And then you said afterwards you were assigned to Previla.

6 What did you do there? Did you function there as a driver?

7 A. No. No. A soldier again. Again a soldier.

8 Q. Previla is near the Gorazde -- near Gorazde. There was the front

9 line at that time, right, until September 1992?

10 A. Well, yes, but the front line is far away from Previla. The

11 command was at Previla and the front line is far away from Previla, five,

12 ten, or even fifteen kilometres away, in the direction of Borovac, Stolac,

13 Osanice whereas Previla is towards the interior, towards Ustikolina, to

14 put it that way.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

16 show the witness the Exhibit 250/1. It's the map that Mr. Masovic put

17 together.

18 Sorry, Your Honour, it's 240/1. It's a mistake.

19 Q. Please -- it's a little bit difficult to see. Maybe you look at

20 the original first. Can you point out to us where Previla is?

21 JUDGE HUNT: Is it marked? Is that what you're asking?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. It's in this circle, number 2.

23 Q. If you see the circle --

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the witness.

25 A. I found Ustikolina.

Page 6657













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Page 6658


2 Q. And you see this number 2. You see the number 2, the circle with

3 the number 2 on top, sir; right? And just look around below the number

4 2.

5 A. I found Previla. I found it.

6 Q. Yes. And yesterday you also mentioned a Stolac hill. Can you

7 also point this --

8 A. Yes. Yes, I found it.

9 Q. Are you --

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I do not have to describe it, Your Honour.

11 We can all read it.

12 Q. Are you familiar a little bit with this terrain, especially that

13 you were assigned there for quite some time?

14 A. Well, for the most part, yes. Not all of it, of course.

15 Q. There is no huge plum tree orchard there; right? There's not a

16 plant for plum trees in this area around Stolac hill?

17 A. No. It's a mountain.

18 Q. And do you know Podstolac or Podvila [phoen] before Stolac hill?

19 It's not actually -- it's not named here in this map, but are you able to

20 say where it was?

21 A. Podstolac near Previla, near Previla. Stolac is far away. From

22 Previla is takes an hour to reach Stolac on foot.

23 Q. Do you know a place Suhi Potok, where a stream comes down the

24 Stolac hill? Do you know that? Does that sound familiar to you?

25 A. No. No. No. I can mention that I know the elevations where I

Page 6659

1 was, Borovac, Kacelj. That's where I was. I was there briefly. I was at

2 Stolac for a while. And now I can't see this. Nekopi, that's where the

3 artillery used to be. I was there for a while and then Repetitor that is

4 near Osanice.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. That's enough with the map.

6 Q. Sir, in September 1992, the Serb army had their defence lines near

7 Stolac hill; right?

8 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct. In fact, the line was exactly at

9 Stolac, on the top of Stolac hill.

10 Q. And detainees from the KP Dom were used there to dig trenches.

11 Are you aware of this?

12 A. No. No. I never saw anyone digging there. I never even heard

13 about it.

14 Q. When did you leave this area? Do you know the exact date?

15 A. No, not the exact date, but it was in the first half of

16 September. I think it was around the 10th that I came to the KP Dom. I'm

17 not sure, but it was in the beginning.

18 Q. You mentioned that you saw -- that you got the order to go to the

19 KP Dom as your next war assignment from the commander, actually, of the

20 unit in Previla. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes. The company commander informed me, I don't know who he got

22 this information from, but he told me to go home and to rest for a few

23 days, have a bath, et cetera, and then go to the KP Dom.

24 Q. And you said you left the rifle behind but you took the uniform,

25 correct?

Page 6660

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Did you continue to wear this uniform while you worked at the KP

3 Dom, or what did you wear?

4 A. I wore different clothes. When I knew I wasn't going on the road,

5 I used this, because the dirt -- because the work with the trucks was

6 dirty, and when I was travelling somewhere, I wore civilian clothes, and I

7 wouldn't have been allowed to cross the border wearing a uniform.

8 Q. It must have been a relief for you to be off the front line and to

9 work at the KP Dom instead; right?

10 A. Certainly. It was a great relief. I had come back to my family.

11 The job was not an easy one. There was a lot of exertion and hard manual

12 work, but it was better.

13 Q. When you reported to the KP Dom, did you report to the warden or

14 to whom, on the first day, on the first moment of your arrival?

15 A. On that day I immediately reported to Micun Jokanovic.

16 Q. And when did you see Mr. Krnojelac as the warden for the first

17 time: On that same day or only later on, in relation to business travel?

18 A. On the same day. Mr. Micun took me to Mr. Krnojelac's to have a

19 talk. He actually called him on the phone beforehand to tell him that I

20 was there and that we needed to discuss the work.

21 Q. I would like to clarify a matter. And I would like to show you

22 Exhibit P3 and would like you to look under the number 136.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We actually wouldn't need it on the ELMO. We

24 wouldn't need it on the ELMO. It's just for him to look at.

25 A. 136, you say?

Page 6661

1 Q. 136. There is Milosav Krsmanovic, and your birth date.

2 A. Yes, that's me.

3 Q. That's you. And I would just want to clarify the dates. You see

4 the dates on this list attached to you, and it says here, actually, for

5 the starting day in the KP Dom, 2nd September 1993.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That's probably a mistake, because you said you started in

8 September 1992 [Realtime transcript read in error "2000"].

9 A. Yes, that's correct. It's a mistake. I don't know for sure, but

10 it may be because I didn't get a permanent work duty. It's just that Mr.

11 Micun and Krnojelac arranged for me to be released from up there on a

12 temporary basis because somebody was needed to work. Because the

13 circumstances were those of mobilisation, military police would come and

14 check papers, so I did not have a permanent, compulsory work order for a

15 while.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I just see that there is a

17 mistake in the transcript. It says September 2000. It has to be

18 September 1992.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I think that's the way it was understood, anyway.


21 Q. You said it's just that Mr. Micun and Krnojelac arranged for me to

22 be released from up there. You mean from the front line?

23 A. Yes. Yes. That's what Micun told me, because work required it

24 and they arranged for me to be allowed to come back and work.

25 Q. Did Mr. Micun tell you what he and Mr. Krnojelac actually did to

Page 6662













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Page 6663

1 get you released? What steps did they take?

2 A. Well, he told me that they made arrangements. Whether they wrote

3 a request or they went to talk to somebody, and I'm not sure, but it seems

4 an order came from Marko Kovac to Previla that I should be let go. That

5 was the route.

6 Q. Did you see that order or did you see anything in writing in

7 relation to your transfer?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Thank you. I would also like to show you another list where your

10 name appears, and it's Prosecution Exhibit P446. And I would like you to

11 have a look at line number 7. You see under number 7, it's again your

12 name.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... here as a soldier deployed in

15 the KP Dom?

16 A. Yes, I see that. I know this list, and since Mr. Micun explained

17 it to me, and not only he, but other employees as well, this list was made

18 so that we could receive our salaries, because nobody paid us. And the

19 army only had funds. So this was done to get us our salaries. Because

20 there are some people here who never even came close to the army.

21 Q. However, you were actually taken from the front line to the KP Dom

22 for these work duties there, and in between you were taken back to the

23 front line, you returned to KP Dom; right? That's what you told us?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. So you were actually a soldier throughout, only that you

Page 6664

1 occasionally were assigned to the KP Dom; right?

2 A. Yes. I was a military conscript.

3 Q. Sir --

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The list we would not need any more.

5 Q. Sir, when you worked in the KP Dom during the war, it was actually

6 the same work that you did before the war, and it was still Mr. Micun

7 Jokanovic as your direct supervisor; right?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, did you know him from before the war?

10 A. Yes. Yes. From 1976 or 1977, after I came to work at the KP

11 Dom. His brother and his brother's son worked with me at the time, and I

12 got to know him through them. And I may have seen him in passing. I may

13 have known him by sight even before that, but not closer.

14 Q. Mr. Krnojelac was a captain first-class in the Territorial

15 Defence; right?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. When you spoke to Mr. Krnojelac and when you travelled with him,

18 did you address him as warden?

19 A. Yes. When we travelled, he didn't require it really. At the KP

20 Dom, yes, but when we travelled together, he didn't ask me to address him

21 like that. We just talked.

22 Q. And the other staff members, they also addressed him as the

23 warden; right?

24 A. Yes, for the most part. I spent the least of my time with this

25 management. The army, the journeys, even if I wasn't very far away, I was

Page 6665

1 on the road within the town limits, in villages. I had to bring in animal

2 feed, supplies, et cetera.

3 Q. And the detainees, whenever you saw them, for instance, on this

4 work site, Krnojelac's house, they also called him warden; right? They

5 did not say "Mico," right?

6 A. I never saw him together with them. I went there to the house at

7 most twice a day. I went there to collect waste from the fire, and Mico

8 didn't come there on those occasions.

9 Q. Yes. The Drina economic section was considerably reduced during

10 the war; right?

11 A. Yes, except for the Economic Unit, which did operate. The

12 furniture factory operated on lower capacity. The printing press did work

13 a little. The fisheries were destroyed. The construction section did not

14 work at all, et cetera.

15 Q. When exactly did the furniture factory start to work? Do you know

16 that?

17 A. I don't know. When I came there, it did work. I don't know when,

18 but it worked before, because I know my colleagues drove out furniture

19 from it.

20 Q. And Muslim detainees worked in the furniture factory; right?

21 A. Yes, I know that.

22 Q. How many?

23 A. I don't know. I never went in there. Because I was loading

24 furniture at a sort of ramp at the entrance, and the people who worked

25 there would come out to do the loading. I would just stand there and

Page 6666

1 wait.

2 Q. And Muslim detainees worked also in the metalwork shop and on the

3 farm; right?

4 A. They did in the metalwork shop. They also worked on the farm, but

5 I don't know when they started, because at first it was the Serb prisoners

6 who worked there. They started to work there as well, later, at a later

7 stage. I don't know when.

8 Q. When you say "the Serb prisoners," do you mean the convicts that

9 were already there from before the war or do you also mean the military

10 detainees of Serb ethnicity?

11 A. Both. Both.

12 Q. So the Serb convicts and the Serb, let's call it military

13 detainees, they both worked also on the farm, in the furniture factory,

14 and in the metalwork shop? Do you know that?

15 A. In the metalwork shop, and I know about this much better, Serbs

16 didn't work at all except for civilians. There were a couple of

17 civilians. Serb military detainees didn't go in there, and I didn't see

18 Serb convicts work there.

19 Q. And in the furniture factory, do you know if Serbs of these two

20 categories worked there?

21 A. I heard that they worked together.

22 Q. And Mr. Todovic was the one who assigned whatever detainee or

23 convict to the work assignments in whatever place; right? It was always

24 Mr. Todovic who assigned those work duties, to the Muslims and the Serbs,

25 right?

Page 6667













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Page 6668

1 A. I heard about that. I heard that he was in charge of the

2 Muslims. I don't know about Serbs, though. Maybe the military once. All

3 I heard was that he was in charge of the Muslims. I heard that first from

4 Micun Jokanovic and I heard the same thing later from some Muslims.

5 Q. Sir, you gave a statement to Defence investigators in February

6 2000 [sic], of this year. Do you remember that, 2001, February, you gave

7 a statement to Defence investigators, Mr. Dundjer and Ms. Rada

8 Sestovic-Krnojelac? Do you remember that?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. And you gave this statement in the Cafe Gong? Did you go to the

11 Cafe Gong to meet them?

12 A. Yes. They called me on the phone, they invited me to come. I

13 went there together with my predecessor there, Miladin Matovic.

14 Q. Why did you go together with him? Did he also give a statement

15 there at the same time or this Miladin Matovic?

16 A. Yes, on the same day.

17 Q. On the same day, at the same time, or one after the other? How

18 did that go?

19 A. Well, I was sitting in one room and Miladin went to another room

20 to give a statement, together with them. When he got out, I went in. But

21 at that time they didn't tell us we would be coming here. They only told

22 us they were taking statements for The Hague.

23 Q. And who else was present besides Mr. Milenko and Ms. Rada

24 Sestovic-Krnojelac? Was anyone else present in the same room?

25 A. Not while we were giving our respective statements. It's a

Page 6669

1 catering establishment. There was no one there at our tables. There were

2 people around.

3 Q. But when you gave your statement, it was not a separate room where

4 nobody could see you; it was within this catering section, just on a table

5 there; right?

6 A. Well, this catering establishment has corners, alcoves, actually.

7 In some places there is a fireplace. There are these alcoves where you

8 could sit separately from other people, and at that time it was

9 practically empty.

10 Q. And Ms. Rada Sestovic-Krnojelac and Mr. Dundjer both spoke with

11 you?

12 A. Yes. Yes, they did.

13 Q. And you said that there is Mr. Matovic was interviewed at the same

14 time in another place in Cafe Gong; right? That's what you said?

15 A. Yes, that's true.

16 Q. Just to clarify: Mr. Matovic, is that Mr. Miladin Matovic?

17 A. Yes, Mr. Miladin Matovic.

18 Q. I have his statement here, and it says that he was interviewed on

19 a different day, not on the same day as you. According -- I can show

20 it to you.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to show the witness

22 first his statement, and it has the ID number 134.

23 JUDGE HUNT: This is the other person's statement, is it?

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. That is Mr. Krsmanovic's statement.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Right. I was wondering, however, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff,

Page 6670

1 where we're headed with this. Are you asking him to say the other witness

2 is not telling the truth?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. I just want to clarify the circumstances

4 of his own giving a statement.

5 JUDGE HUNT: But by suggesting to him that somebody else has said

6 something to the contrary, I'm not sure where that leads us.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. Your Honour, the witness said that

8 Mr. Miladin Matovic went there with him with the same day and was

9 interviewed at the same time in a different spot, and according to at

10 least the written documentation, that's not true.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's why I'm suggesting to you: You are

12 asking this witness to say whether the other witness is telling the truth.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. If he has told us the truth. If it

14 is --

15 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think there's any difference. If I may say

16 so, it's not a method of cross-examination which really leads to any

17 conclusive or even helpful result. You could ask him whether he is

18 certain that is so. By all means, pin him down if you wish, and then you

19 can ask the other witness, when that witness is called, whether he is

20 accurate. But I don't know where it's going to get us.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This witness has already testified, and at

22 that moment it wasn't clear to me that they were there at the same time.

23 Because according to this other statement, Mr. Miladin Matovic was

24 interviewed actually a week later.

25 JUDGE HUNT: But where does this get us? Anyway, even if that

Page 6671

1 were so, is there a suggestion of collusion between the two witnesses?

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's a suggestion that he was influenced by

3 other people present.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if that's what you want to do, you proceed, but

5 I don't think that it is an appropriate means of cross-examination to ask

6 him whether somebody else is telling the truth. Indeed, in most countries

7 with which I am familiar, that sort of cross-examination is prohibited

8 because it gets you nowhere. So I'm just suggesting to you: If you think

9 that that's what you're going to do with it, you can just simply ask him

10 directly, but you cannot ask him to say that what somebody has put in a

11 statement which is never going to get into evidence is true.


13 Q. Was Mr. Matovic present had you gave your statement, and could he

14 hear what you were saying?

15 A. No, he wasn't present when I was giving my statement. We sat

16 together after that.

17 Q. And did you discuss what you have told the investigators?

18 A. Very superficially, not much.

19 Q. Did you discuss especially the position of Mr. Todovic of being in

20 charge of the Muslims? Did you discuss this after you gave this

21 statement?

22 A. No. Talking to him and talking here, I always said that I did my

23 job as a driver, and I couldn't say much about the other things. I

24 couldn't talk about things I don't know, and the same is true of my

25 colleagues. All I know is my job.

Page 6672













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Page 6673

1 Q. Mr. Krsmanovic, in your statement that you gave to the

2 investigators, to the Defence investigators, you do not mention

3 Mr. Todovic at all, and you in particular do not mention that he was in

4 charge of the Muslims, not a single sentence. That's correct; right? You

5 didn't mention him.

6 A. In my mind, I didn't think it was necessary. I had nothing to do

7 with him. I had no contact with him during my work and the entire time I

8 was at the KP Dom.

9 Q. So you do not actually know what Mr. Todovic did and what he was

10 actually in charge of; right? You don't know.

11 A. I never saw a single piece of paper. All I know was from rumours,

12 from what others told me.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's time.

14 JUDGE HUNT: And if I may say so, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you've

15 established out what you set out to establish without asking him whether

16 the other witness was telling the truth.

17 Now, Mr. Bakrac, your witness who has the voice distortion, would

18 you ensure that he is put through the test during the lunch adjournment

19 so we don't have to waste time when he begins his evidence.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, with the kind

21 assistance of the staff. He has been in the witness room since this

22 morning, but I cannot pass through all the doors on the way, so I'll need

23 assistance.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. We'll adjourn now until 2.30.

25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.

Page 6674

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krsmanovic. You mentioned already that the KP

6 Dom farm sold food in the shop that belonged to the KP Dom. They also --

7 from the farm, they also delivered food to the army; right?

8 A. I don't know about that. Maybe, but I wouldn't know. I never

9 carried anything.

10 Q. Did you transport farm products to other companies in Foca, like

11 Maglic?

12 A. I know that a certain amount of goods was given to Maglic, some

13 other goods, but how much, I really wouldn't know.

14 Q. When you say "goods," you mean food, food products; right?

15 A. I'm not sure. I know that timber from them was brought in and

16 some materials were transported to them, stuff necessary to repair windows

17 and buildings. I transported that a couple of times. I didn't carry any

18 food for them. I know on one occasion eggs were delivered to them for

19 Easter. I'm not sure, but that was at a later stage, in 1993 or 1994, but

20 as a one-time delivery, eggs were once transported to them. I don't know

21 which year it was.

22 Q. Did the KP Dom farm sell food products to Montenegro and Serbia?

23 Do you know that?

24 A. In the beginning of the war, certainly not. Maybe later, but not

25 at the outset.

Page 6675

1 Q. And when you say "later," what do you mean? Did you yourself

2 deliver food products to Serbia or Montenegro at some point in time?

3 A. I didn't, not during the war.

4 Q. You mentioned that you, when you came back from your trips to

5 Serbia and Montenegro, that you brought back food and raw materials, and

6 you mentioned these barter deals. It was better to get raw materials and

7 food in exchange for products and money, right, at least because of the

8 high inflation rate, isn't it?

9 A. Well, probably. There wasn't any money. It was mostly goods that

10 were brought in.

11 Q. And the hens and the fodder that you brought in was for the farm

12 to raise the animals there and to produce eggs; right?

13 A. Yes. Production of eggs, milk, pigs, meat.

14 Q. And you used what you brought in, the raw materials and those

15 things that we just spoke about to raise more money within the Drina Unit;

16 right? What you brought back was basically to raise more money, more

17 earnings?

18 A. Well, I'm not very knowledgeable about economics, but this is

19 trade, exchanges, in order to have the furniture factory working, I had to

20 take these deliveries to Spuz. Furniture was taken and sometimes things

21 were exchanged for raw materials or whatever, but the bosses were really

22 in charge of that.

23 Q. You mentioned that you, on one occasion, brought back aid from

24 other prisoners in Serbia. What kind of aid was it? Was it food or what?

25 A. It was food, once from Pozarevac, food: Pasta, some kind of cans,

Page 6676

1 some oil. I'm not sure about the quantities. This was in parcels. Rice,

2 sugar.

3 Q. When you made your trips to Montenegro or Serbia, did you have to

4 have travel authorisation from the KP Dom?

5 A. Yes. As a matter of fact, there had to be some kind of permits

6 for the trucks, some kind of papers were made in addition to the travel

7 orders we had, also some kind of order or permit was required for the

8 vehicle itself in order to be able to cross the border.

9 Q. And who approved your travelling? When you travelled, who gave

10 you approval?

11 A. My travel orders were issued by Micun Jokanovic.

12 Q. Did you yourself have to fill in a kind of travel authorisation

13 form?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

16 show the witness D90.

17 Q. Sir, this is a travel authorisation -- it's not related to your

18 personal travelling. It's actually related to Mr. Krnojelac's. But we do

19 not want to discuss the trip that Mr. Krnojelac made or may have made. We

20 just want to discuss the document as such, the form as such. Did you have

21 to fill in or did someone else fill in such a form for your travelling?

22 Do you know this form?

23 A. Yes. Yes. We got two orders: This one for us and the other one

24 for the vehicle. The other one was for the vehicle. It was filled out.

25 It had the number of the vehicle, the name and surname of the driver, who

Page 6677













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6678

1 was issuing the order, and also whether it was in proper condition.

2 Q. Yes. Just a few questions related to the general procedure. This

3 second page of the travel authorisation, was it actually the backside of

4 the first page or was it two separate pages? Do you recall that?

5 A. Yes. This is the kind of orders that we had. This is it. These

6 were orders from the KP Dom administration, and possibly travel expenses

7 would be paid on the basis of that. I hardly ever slept at a hotel. If

8 you would have a bill from a hotel, then you would get a per diem. I have

9 three brothers in Serbia, so I usually would spend the night at one of

10 their places. One is in Panca, one is in Kralja.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the third one.


13 Q. The interpreter didn't hear the third one that you mentioned.

14 Could you repeat it?

15 A. I'll repeat three. Pancevo, Belgrade, and Kragujevic.

16 Q. Sir, you didn't answer my questions. I just wanted to know This

17 first page, this first page and this second page, were they actually on

18 one piece of paper? The second page, was it the back side of the first?

19 A. Yes. Yes, it's the same paper.

20 Q. And on the first page, on the bottom there is mentioned a log

21 book, a log book. Was there only one log book in the KP Dom where all

22 this travelling was logged in, or was there a separate log book for the

23 Drina Economic Unit? Do you know?

24 A. Yes. Separately. Sometimes it was the same, though, too. I

25 don't know about the war. There was a secretary who does this. I don't

Page 6679

1 know how it was during wartime. I think it was all KP Dom. That all was

2 signed by the warden. We didn't have a director. I don't know how the

3 secretary did this, how the bookkeeping functioned, how this budget was

4 financed, how payments were made into these accounts. I'm not very

5 knowledgeable about these things. I know now -- I'm sorry. I do

6 apologise. Now there are two books. I don't know what it was like during

7 the war, but now there are two books. One is for this and the other is

8 for that. I don't know how it was during wartime, though.

9 Q. You say one is for this and the other is for that. What is "this"

10 and "that"? Does it mean one is for the Drina Economic Unit travelling

11 and the other is for the rest of the KP Dom, or what do you mean? What

12 were the two log books for?

13 A. Well, precisely that's it now, but I don't know whether there were

14 two books in wartime. I don't know.

15 Q. There is a handwritten reference number on the document. It says

16 here on the number 313/10. Do you know what that refers to?

17 A. I don't know. I don't know. Perhaps the register, that book. I

18 don't know.

19 Q. And --

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. That's enough. Those were the

21 questions for this form.

22 Q. And when you returned, you had to submit a note with the travel

23 expenses, I suppose; right? If you had any expenses, you had to submit it

24 with this form; right?

25 A. Yes. Yes. If I had the bills, I would hand them in.

Page 6680

1 Q. And you had to do this within three days after return; right?

2 A. Well, there wasn't a deadline. I don't know. At any rate, after

3 the goods were unloaded and after finishing everything else, we would hand

4 this in too. We didn't have very many bills. We took fuel with us so

5 that we would be able to return, because nobody would give it to us over

6 there. Then I didn't sleep at a hotel. Perhaps sometimes they would,

7 much later, give us some kind of a minimum per diem where I could, within,

8 say, three days have only one lunch in Yugoslavia. So that was the value

9 of that kind of money. So that's why we took this canned food along.

10 Q. So you had a per diem travel allowance from some point in time?

11 A. Yes, we did, but it was very small. Its value was very small in

12 relation to the expenses there.

13 Q. And you were reimbursed after you returned, shortly after, right,

14 shortly after? You didn't have to wait for months to get your money back;

15 right?

16 A. Yes. Well, not for months. It wasn't very fast either, but say

17 within seven, ten days - I don't know - something like that. There was a

18 bit of this working capital in the sense that the shop was making some

19 money and then they would be able to cover petty expenses that way.

20 Q. And for trips within Foca, you wouldn't get any allowances or

21 expenses; right?

22 A. No. No, nothing. Nothing.

23 Q. KP Dom didn't have its own gas station; right? You didn't have a

24 gas station on the premises?

25 A. No, never. Not before the war, not during the war, not now.

Page 6681

1 Q. Did you receive the gas from the army during the war?

2 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that. I don't know.

3 Q. Where did you fill the tank when you had to travel? Where did you

4 fill the tank of the truck?

5 A. We had our own warehouse, and there were barrels of oil over there

6 in barrels.

7 Q. On the KP Dom premises?

8 A. Yes. Yes. Outside the compound. It was a garage where this was

9 stored.

10 Q. You would not buy gas at any private gas station for the official

11 travelling?

12 A. There weren't any private gas stations anywhere in our territory.

13 They didn't exist. There were only state-owned gas stations, but you

14 couldn't buy gas there. You couldn't.

15 Q. And during the war, did you have a private car of your own?

16 A. Yes. Before the war and during the war and now, I have one and

17 the same vehicle, and that is a Zastava 128.

18 Q. But you could not fill the tank of your private car on the

19 expenses of the KP Dom; right? You couldn't just go to the KP Dom barrel

20 and get private gas; right? That was not allowed, was it?

21 A. I couldn't. There was a warehouse worker, Nebojsa Vujicic. He

22 was the one who would pour out the gas for the KP Dom. I used diesel oil,

23 not gasoline. And his bosses told him who should be given how much. When

24 I went to Yugoslavia, I would get as much as I needed to get to Belgrade

25 and back. They would do the arithmetic and calculate exactly how much I

Page 6682













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Page 6683

1 would need to go there and to get back, and then I would take these extra

2 supplies along.

3 Q. So you couldn't get your private car filled on expenses of the KP

4 Dom, nor any other staff member; right?

5 A. I never took a drop. If anyone else did, I'm not aware of that.

6 Q. And the warden, he couldn't do that either, or could he use the

7 gasoline of the KP Dom for his private car?

8 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that. Maybe -- I guess if he used

9 his private vehicle for official purposes, he would get orders to that

10 effect; however, I'm not aware of that. I never saw it.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher I would like to

12 show the witness Exhibit 6.

13 Q. Mr. Krsmanovic, this is a ground plan of the entire KP Dom. Yes,

14 that's fine. Could you point out to us where the gas storage was?

15 A. May I point it out here?

16 Q. On the ELMO, please, yes.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Sir --

19 A. There are two marked, two garages marked, but there are three,

20 actually. This is next to the metalwork shop and that's where this garage

21 was.

22 Q. Sir --

23 A. Excuse me. Perhaps I made a mistake. Let me see. The

24 administration building here, the metalwork shop here, here. I'm sorry,

25 here.

Page 6684

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. This is the entrance to the metalwork shop, and before entering

3 the metalwork shop here, right over here.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not understand the last

5 sentence.


7 Q. Could you please repeat the last sentence. The interpreter didn't

8 hear you.

9 A. Above the garage is the entrance into the metalwork shop, and

10 before the entrance, on the left-hand side, there are three garages. One

11 was used for fuel.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the building left

13 from the entrance to the metalwork shop compound.

14 Q. And you also mentioned the repair shop. Can you point out to us

15 the repair shop where the cars were repaired?

16 A. It's right over here, at the end, at the very end, over here.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the last building

18 belonging to the metalwork shop compound.

19 Q. And you mentioned earlier on where you parked the trucks and the

20 other vehicles within the compound. Could you show where you parked?

21 A. It's this area here by the car workshop. All of this is empty up

22 here and over here, and this is where the vehicles were.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the entire empty

24 space right from the auto mechanical workshop.

25 Q. And Witness, were there any old trucks outside of the KP Dom

Page 6685

1 compound parked, those that were not in working order; and if so, could

2 you point out where that was?

3 A. Yes. All of this over here is an empty area, all the way here.

4 This is the road leading to the hospital, and down here, down here, that's

5 where they were parked. There were several vehicles, perhaps seven or

6 eight vehicles that were not used at all. Let me just add one more

7 thing. This was during a certain period of time due to the damage on

8 these vehicles - I don't know which year this happened - part of these

9 vehicles were taken to the farm in order to maintain them. However, they

10 could not be driven, so they hooked onto trucks and then trailed to the

11 farm.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the area above

13 the word "Drina," and especially the area between the river bank and the

14 metalwork shop building.

15 Thank you. That's enough.

16 Q. Witness, you described the repair procedure for cars. How many

17 staff members worked in the mechanical car repair shop before the war?

18 How many people worked there?

19 A. Before the war, only one civilian, Salko Kovac. He was foreman of

20 the workshop and he had convicts. It varied: Three, four.

21 Q. And during the war, there were a few Muslim detainees who worked

22 in this repair shop; right?

23 A. Yes, two.

24 Q. Yes. And they could not do all the work that was necessary on all

25 the vehicles right away; right?

Page 6686

1 A. Well, it depended. There was less work. There were very few

2 vehicles that were operated. Before the war there were more. So they

3 managed to finish this work for the most part. They were exceptionally

4 good mechanics, especially one of them, [redacted]. Can I tell you

5 about this a bit more? He's the best repairman, the best mechanic in that

6 entire area.

7 Q. But Mr. Goljanin, the foreman, actually he decided what was to be

8 done first. The more urgent things were to be done first; right?

9 A. Well, Relja Goljanin, I don't know whether he was head of

10 department or something like that. He was simply the boss at the

11 workshop. That's what they called him. And the priorities in terms of

12 what should be fixed first is something that he established, probably with

13 Micun and with the warden, Mr. Krnojelac. What is really important, if a

14 trip had to be made, then which vehicle could be repaired first for that

15 trip.

16 Q. And this gentleman that you just mentioned who was such a good

17 mechanic, he wasn't always there. He was, for instance, also in Miljevina

18 repairing machines for mining; right?

19 A. Yes. I know that he went there. I heard from him that it was not

20 only mining machinery; he also repaired the private cars of some people.

21 In any event, he did go up there. I don't know in which periods and how

22 often, but I know that he wasn't always there.

23 Q. So if there was something which was not important, which didn't

24 really affect driving, it wouldn't be urgent, it wouldn't be done right

25 away if the mechanics were doing something different; right?

Page 6687













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Page 6688

1 A. I don't know about that. I never wondered about it. I never

2 thought about it. I didn't ask. I did my job and other things were

3 handled by other people.

4 Q. So it is possible that when the mechanics didn't have time, a car

5 would drive around with a faulty exhaust pipe, as long as the driving is

6 not affected; right? Nobody would bother much; right?

7 A. I don't know. Those mechanics, they didn't do exhaust pipes.

8 Another man did it. His name was Lija. He was a welder, and he worked

9 within the compound of the metalwork shop. He had his own work there, and

10 he would occasionally go to the car repair shop to weld something whenever

11 necessary. But neither [redacted] nor Sefko Kubat were welders. They couldn't

12 weld.

13 Q. But when Mr. Lisica, Lija, had other urgent tasks to do, the car

14 would drive around with the faulty exhaust pipe for a while; right?

15 That's possible, isn't it?

16 A. I don't know about that. It didn't happen while I was there,

17 particularly not with the vehicles that I drove, especially to Yugoslavia.

18 Such a vehicle couldn't travel in such a condition, even if the trip had

19 to be delayed. And then there was also another car repair shop at Ozren

20 where cars would be taken if they couldn't be repaired in our own shop.

21 Q. The FAP truck 1612 had actually for a while a faulty exhaust pipe,

22 hadn't it? It was driving around for a while with a faulty exhaust pipe.

23 Don't you recall that?

24 A. No, I don't. While I drove that vehicle, it didn't.

25 Q. Sir, do you recall that there was a rather broken-down Furgon

Page 6689

1 truck parked in this area near the Drina River in 1992, in summer 1992?

2 Do you remember that there was one Furgon truck that was repaired by Sefko

3 Kubat and [redacted]? Do you recall that?

4 A. No. Maybe before I came, but I don't know anything about it.

5 Q. Are you aware that one of the detainee drivers, the Muslim,

6 Mustafa Alikadic, had to drive this Furgon truck back and forth between

7 Foca and Gorazde along the front line?

8 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know what happened and how, but at

9 one point [redacted] told me.

10 Q. What did he tell you?

11 A. That he went out somewhere to drive this truck, out into the

12 field, but I really don't know.

13 Q. Do you know Mustafa Alikadic, the driver? Did you see him in the

14 KP Dom?

15 A. No, I don't know him at all.

16 Q. Do you know a driver Murat Islambasic, detained in the KP Dom?

17 Do you know this person?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Mr. Krnojelac drove a red Yugo car. That's what you said. It was

20 serviced by the Muslim detainees in the mechanical workshop; right?

21 A. Yes, he did drive a red Yugo. As far as servicing is concerned, I

22 wouldn't know. That car didn't come in at any time when I was present,

23 but it's possible.

24 Q. You said that you do not really know whether it was his private

25 car or whether it was an official KP Dom car. Is that correct or is that

Page 6690

1 a misunderstanding?

2 A. Yes. I don't know.

3 Q. When Mr. Krnojelac left the KP Dom, this car left with him, right,

4 or did it remain in the car park?

5 A. It didn't stay in the carpark. He drove it away.

6 Q. And the new warden used the white Golf, right, Mr. Sekulovic?

7 A. Yes, for a while he did.

8 Q. The KP Dom had a red Kedi that was used for deliveries; right, a

9 Poly? Some people say a Poly.

10 A. Yes. Yes. It's a Zastava 128 Poly.

11 Q. And it was serviced by the Muslim detainees in the mechanical

12 workshop; right?

13 A. Yes. Yes, it was.

14 Q. And it was also washed by the detainees; right? Servicing

15 included washing?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Mr. Krsmanovic, besides transporting goods, did you also transport

18 detainees to work sites?

19 A. Well, yes, but that was at a later stage, maybe as late as 1994.

20 Earlier, when I just came back to the KP Dom, it was Serb prisoners who

21 handled unloading and loading. They didn't go with me. They started

22 coming with me -- they started going to the farm, four of them, but when

23 they started, I don't know. They would go to the farm in the morning and

24 come back in the evening.

25 Q. And did you ever transport or drive around Muslim detainees to

Page 6691

1 work sites or to whatever places?

2 A. Well, yes, but very seldom, very seldom, and only two or three of

3 them who travelled with me in the driver's cabin, but that was in 1993, in

4 the autumn, when we were bringing in firewood, and we went on a couple of

5 occasions to bring back firewood for the compound.

6 Q. And when you did take out these few Muslim detainees, you had to

7 check them out at the duty officer; right? You had to inform the duty

8 officer that you were taking these certain detainees out and you had to

9 check them in as well; right? There was a procedure, wasn't there?

10 A. No. I did not do that. A policeman went.

11 Q. You mentioned that you saw Muslim detainees work at the house of

12 Mr. Krnojelac, but you did not bring them there; right? You just saw them

13 there?

14 A. Yes. I had come by truck to carry certain material and goods. I

15 don't remember. Maybe I drove them on a couple of occasions, but I went

16 there just a few times. Sometimes it would be twice in one day, maybe two

17 trips there and back, just to unload some material.

18 Q. Do you recall in which month you did this and in which year?

19 A. It was in late autumn 1992, around that time. I cannot remember

20 the date for the life of me, but the month could be October or November.

21 It was already rather cold.

22 Q. What materials did you transport there? What did you bring? You

23 talked about the rubble that you took away, but what did you bring to the

24 house?

25 A. That had already been piled up outside the house, all the rubbish,

Page 6692













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Page 6693

1 pieces of mortar, burnt pieces of the house, and that's what I would take

2 away.

3 Q. Yes, but you were talking about what did you bring to the house.

4 What kind of materials did you bring to the house?

5 A. A couple of times smaller quantities of construction material, and

6 on one occasion, sand; sand, gravel for those construction works, cement

7 perhaps.

8 Q. And those materials you got from the premises of the KP Dom?

9 A. I really don't remember. Well, no. The sand was loaded onto the

10 truck by the Drina River, and I really don't remember about the rest.

11 Q. Did you transport pieces of a metal staircase to Mr. Krnojelac's

12 house that was produced in the KP Dom? Do you recall this?

13 A. No. It was certainly not me.

14 Q. And you said -- you mentioned already that you saw these Muslim

15 detainees there working. Did you also see Mr. Vasiljevic working there?

16 A. Well, I didn't see him working, but he was there when I arrived.

17 He was around.

18 Q. In which capacity was he there? What did he do there? Was he

19 supervising the detainees or the works?

20 A. I don't know all the details. All I know is that he owns the

21 construction company and that he knows about construction. He must have

22 done some kind of work like that. I think he was there on business. I

23 don't think he was guarding anything.

24 Q. The detainees were guarded by Mr. Krnojelac's son; right?

25 A. I don't know. He was around. How it was arranged, I don't know.

Page 6694

1 I never saw any police, not on a single occasion. Mr. Krnojelac's son was

2 there. Whether he was guarding or doing something else, I don't know. I

3 spoke to Mustafa Telo on one occasion. I don't know if I've mentioned

4 this. I had the impression that he was very satisfied.

5 Q. You have already mentioned that.

6 A. Really? I apologise.

7 Q. Yes. And which son? Mr. Krnojelac has four sons; right? Which

8 son was there? Do you know the name, the first name?

9 A. Yes. It was Spomenko, the owner of that Gong Cafe.

10 Q. And when you saw him, was he in military uniform?

11 A. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure. I really can't remember. It

12 was a long time ago. I got to know some of his sons during the war. His

13 other sons I never really got to know; I just saw them in passing.

14 Q. You mentioned that among the four detainees there was a restaurant

15 owner. That's a person with the nickname Polani; right?

16 A. Yes, he was.

17 Q. You told us what Mr. Mustafa Telo said to you. That actually

18 means these detainees were there so that they got additional food; right?

19 For them it was good to get some additional food; correct?

20 A. Well, yes. They said, "We have good food," and, as I already

21 mentioned, coffee, cigarettes.

22 Q. And they also worked there because they could not bear to be

23 locked up all the time in the rooms; right? It was better to just be

24 outside and work; right?

25 A. Yes. That's normal.

Page 6695

1 Q. This work that you did on Mr. Krnojelac's house, that is, taking

2 away rubble, bringing goods there, you did it only for Mr. Krnojelac's

3 house and not for the adjacent other Serb burnt-down houses; right?

4 A. Well, at that time there were no other houses under repair. Later

5 we did Bozo Drakul's house, but that was much later, and I think those

6 were the only two staff members of the KP Dom whose houses had been burnt

7 down, and both of them were repaired.

8 Q. When you say "much later," when -- or of what year do you speak?

9 A. I think the war was already over. Repairs had started at one

10 point, then stopped, and then it resumed, and it was finalised.

11 Q. Did you ever bring any materials to the apartment where

12 Mr. Krnojelac lived in during the war that is, the apartment of

13 Dr. Sosevic?

14 A. No. I don't even know where that apartment is. I've never been

15 there. I just know the neighbourhood, but I don't know where the

16 apartment is at all.

17 Q. Do you know Mr. Saja Sahimpasic's green grocery store in Foca, the

18 store that he owned before the war check?

19 A. Yes, I knew him well and we are neighbours.

20 Q. This store was taken over by Bozidar Krnojelac; right?

21 A. I don't know. I didn't know that he was there. I know where

22 Bozidar Krnojelac is, but I didn't know that Cajo had anything to do with

23 it. I know that Cajo had a place in Donje Polje which was destroyed, and

24 I know that somebody else built a house on that location. I really don't

25 know who owns it now.

Page 6696

1 Q. You said that Mr. Krnojelac accompanied you on the truck on

2 several occasions to Montenegro and Serbia; right?

3 A. Yes, he did.

4 Q. And if I understand you correctly, it's actually only three times

5 that he did that; right?

6 A. Well, it was certainly once to Bileca, once to Belgrade, once from

7 Niksic to Podgorica. Perhaps once again we travelled to Niksic, but I

8 couldn't confirm that with 100 per cent. But he did travel with me three

9 times. I don't know if he travelled with other drivers.

10 Q. The trip to Bileca was a one-day trip; right? You went there in

11 the morning and returned in the evening?

12 A. Exactly.

13 Q. And when? Do you recall when approximately that was?

14 A. I have been on the road so much that I really can't tell you

15 anything about the dates. If I had ever known that it would come to this,

16 I would have kept a log book, a record, but I really can't remember a

17 single date.

18 Q. Was it in the beginning, when you started to work in the KP Dom,

19 or was it more -- some months later? Do you recall this?

20 A. It couldn't have been right in the beginning, because right then I

21 made several trips to Yugoslavia. I don't know how much later. I'm

22 afraid to tell you something that isn't true. It could have been in the

23 spring, because there was a shortage of oil at the time, but I'm not sure.

24 Q. Spring 1993, then?

25 A. Yes. That's what I meant to say.

Page 6697













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Page 6698

1 Q. And this overnight trip to Niksic and Podgorica, was it after

2 Bileca or before; do you know? This trip where you stayed overnight in

3 Niksic. Do you know?

4 A. I don't remember, really.

5 Q. And this trip to Belgrade where you started out together and you

6 returned after some days, but Mr. Krnojelac returned at a time that you

7 don't know, when was that? In which year?

8 A. Autumn 1992.

9 Q. Detainees, Muslim detainees, were exchanged while you worked at

10 the KP Dom; right?

11 A. Well, I know they were exchanged, but I don't know anything else.

12 I don't know when or anything else. As you know from my previous

13 statements, it went on when I arrived and it maybe went on later, but I

14 was never around and I don't know about those things. I couldn't tell you

15 anything in detail.

16 Q. But you know about a group of detainees that were taken away for

17 plum picking in September 1992; right? You heard about this group, didn't

18 you?

19 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of the time of any exchanges or how

20 it all went.

21 Q. Do you know Mr. Murat Crneta?

22 A. No. No. I can add, though, who I know out of the detained

23 Muslims. Some who worked in the metalwork shop, I knew them well, and a

24 couple of them who went out to work on the farm. But I never entered the

25 compound or the quarters. I never go in nowadays, and I didn't do so

Page 6699

1 during the war. I never had any contact with them.

2 Q. Do you know -- but you are living -- you were living in Foca, and

3 Foca is not a big town, so there is a possibility that you knew some

4 people from before the war. Did you know Mr. Murat Crneta from before the

5 war?

6 A. That's possible. The name sounds familiar, but I cannot place it.

7 Q. And Halid Konjo, did you know a Muslim with this name?

8 A. Yes, I knew Konjo -- I knew the Konjos. They owned a tavern at

9 which I frequented, and I knew them rather well, and I knew their old man,

10 who had two sons. I knew two of his sons. Maybe he had more.

11 Q. Were you aware that Halid Konjo was detained in the KP Dom?

12 A. No. No, I don't. I don't know.

13 Q. At the beginning of this cross-examination, I showed you a map and

14 you pointed out Previla and Stolac hill to the Court. You are aware that

15 the bodies of Halid Konjo and Murat Crneta were found there in a mass

16 grave together with five other bodies; right? You learned that in 1997,

17 didn't you?

18 A. No. I don't know anything about it.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Mr. Vasic.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:

23 Q. Mr. Krsmanovic, in response to my learned friend's question, you

24 mentioned an automobile, Yugo, a red car, and you didn't know whether it

25 was owned by Mr. Krnojelac or by the KP Dom. Can you tell us whether this

Page 6700

1 particular make of car, this Zastava Yugo, was widespread throughout the

2 territory of the former Yugoslavia before the conflicts broke out?

3 A. Well, they called it the national car. There were lots and lots

4 of them, especially in the territory of the present-day Yugoslavia and the

5 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were a lot of these vehicles.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. You said after Mr. Krnojelac left that you did

7 not see this vehicle. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac drive it off personally?

8 Did you see that yourself?

9 A. No, I didn't see anything personally, but I don't know what

10 happened to the vehicle itself, and I was not there that moment when

11 Krnojelac officially left the Dom. I know -- I don't know whether I

12 mentioned this earlier - that for a while Krnojelac was there together

13 with the new management.

14 Q. Sir, in response to my learned friend's question, you talked about

15 the documentation that was prepared when you would go on a trip. Can you

16 tell us, please: Where was documentation prepared for the goods you would

17 bring in to Foca?

18 A. That documentation was prepared at the place where we loaded the

19 goods, in the companies where we would take these goods from. And then

20 later, in relation to that place, or perhaps a bigger town, when customs

21 declarations were first written. For instance, if we were loading goods

22 in Sobovic [phoen], that was near Kragujevac, that's where we got cattle

23 feed. Of course we had to go to the town of Kragujevac to have all the

24 necessary paperwork done, things like that.

25 Q. So this documentation was made after you would come to the company

Page 6701

1 where you would be taking the goods from?

2 A. Yes. I don't know in which period. For a while things could go

3 without customs declarations, but then this thing started too. I don't

4 know which period is involved.

5 Q. In response to my learned friend's question, you said that the

6 position of warden of KP Dom was appreciated before the war. What about

7 the position of the president of the municipality, of the Municipal

8 Assembly? Was that highly regarded before the war? Was that a position

9 above that of warden of the KP Dom? Was that position appreciated more

10 than the position of warden of the KP Dom in a town like Foca?

11 A. These are real big questions for me. I'm a plain working man. I

12 don't know how important all these people are. They gave orders to me.

13 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me: Do you know that before he became

14 warden of the KP Dom in Foca, Radojica Tesovic was president of the

15 Municipal Assembly of Foca?

16 A. I knew this man for years, but he was not president of the

17 Municipal Assembly. What was it called in those days? Of the executive

18 council of the Municipal Assembly.

19 Q. Was Radojica Tesovic president of the executive council of the

20 Municipal Assembly of Foca before the war, before he became warden of the

21 KP Dom?

22 A. Yes, much earlier, because he was warden of the KP Dom for two

23 four-year terms, and that was eight years all together. And he was in the

24 municipality before that.

25 Q. In response to my learned friend's question, you said that Mr.

Page 6702

1 Tesovic was opposed to inter-ethnic differences, that he was a moderate,

2 and that he was opposed -- or rather that he was in the group of those who

3 were opposed to what was going on in Foca. Can you say the same of

4 Milorad Krnojelac?

5 A. Yes, certainly. Not only Milorad. I pointed this out. The

6 majority, the majority of people, both of Serb and Muslim ethnicity, a

7 vast majority at that. I would particularly underline not only Milorad,

8 but the entire Krnojelac family, all of them, those who I know, especially

9 Milorad Krnojelac, in terms of where he lived. I lived at Donje Polje

10 too. That is where there is a majority Muslim population. I know that he

11 was a well-liked man, neighbour, friend. Among his family, neighbourhood,

12 and his company, he was a good teacher.

13 Q. Thank you, sir. In response to my learned friend's question, you

14 mentioned the former director of the Drina Economic Unit, Mr. Simovic,

15 from before the conflict. Do you know whether his brother, Mr. Josip

16 Simovic remained in Foca after the war broke out?

17 A. Yes. He worked up there in Jelec in Jelec. He was in charge of

18 the fisheries there. He used to work at the farm too. He was there for a

19 while. That's what I heard. But I don't know when he left.

20 Q. Did you hear that after the instruction of the fisheries in Jelec

21 he was in Bukovice? I'm referring to Mr. Simovic?

22 A. I'm not aware of that. Maybe, but I don't know.

23 Q. You said to us that you were mobilised and that after that you

24 went for your work obligation to the Economic Unit of the KP Dom and then

25 you were mobilised again and then you went to the work obligation and then

Page 6703

1 again you were mobilised by the army. You said in response to my learned

2 friend's question that you were a military conscript throughout. But I'm

3 interested in the following: While you were in the Economic Unit, were

4 you a soldier in that period while you were a driver at the Economic

5 Unit? Were you in military service then?

6 A. Well, I was a military conscript, in view of my age, and the

7 period while I worked in the KP Dom I worked as a civilian.

8 Q. That is to say that after you were dismissed from your unit you

9 were a civilian, and then you were a driver in the KP Dom Economic Unit in

10 1992 and 1993, and then you were mobilised and taken to the front every

11 time when the military would call you up. So did you have to return your

12 weapons and equipment and everything else that was issued to you by the

13 military every time you went to the KP Dom?

14 A. Yes. I think I said that. I returned the weapons that had been

15 issued to me, but nothing else.

16 Q. In response to my learned friend's question today, you said that

17 within the metalwork shop, that cars were washed near the metalwork shop.

18 Did you ever see Muslim detainees washing a Zastava Poly that belonged to

19 the KP Dom, the one that was mentioned by my learned friend? Did you ever

20 see that yourself?

21 A. Possibly. I don't know what's important. I saw that every

22 vehicle was washed and repaired, and I would often spend some time there.

23 I don't know. I would also drive practically every vehicle there. It was

24 necessary. Sometimes I'd come back from a trip and I wouldn't even get

25 any decent rest and I would be transferred to another vehicle. Sometimes

Page 6704

1 there was lots of work and sometimes -- well, it's that kind of a job.

2 Q. You mentioned that you saw people who were working on

3 Mr. Krnojelac's house and that you talked to Mr. Telo. Did he tell you

4 that he came to work on Mr. Krnojelac's house only because of the good

5 food, or did he just tell you that the food there was good?

6 A. I think that I've said that three times already, that he

7 volunteered, that they liked being there, that it was better than out

8 there. And I said what else they had in addition to the food, and that

9 they were received in a friendly way within this family, things like that.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

11 Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions for the

12 re-examination of this witness.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for coming to give evidence. You are

14 now free to leave.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, when even your witness points out that

18 he's given evidence about something three times should be a lesson to us

19 all.

20 All right. Now, this one, with all of these protective measures,

21 requires us to close the public gallery, doesn't it? But the video

22 recording can still be played outside the courtroom. The pseudonym

23 document for Witness B will be Exhibit D152.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE HUNT: I'm reminded that in this particular courtroom the

Page 6705

1 undistorted voice of Witness B will be found on channel 7. Exhibit D152

2 will, of course, be under seal.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE HUNT: Will you please make the solemn declaration in the

5 document which the usher is showing you, sir.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

11 Yes, Mr. Vasic.

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Examined by Mr. Vasic:

14 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. Since you are a protected witness, a witness who has voice

17 distortion and facial protection, would you please pause after I've put my

18 question. First of all, because we speak the same language, and the

19 interpreters need time to interpret my questions so that the other persons

20 involved in this trial could follow what we are saying. Then I have to

21 turn off my microphone lest your voice be heard through my microphone,

22 because then the protection would be pointless. So please pause after

23 every question I put to you and then give your answer. Perhaps the best

24 thing would be for you to look at the screen in front of you. You have

25 the transcript there, and when the cursor stops, that means that the

Page 6706

1 question has been interpreted and then you can give your answer. Have you

2 understood what I've said?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Sir --

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the help of the usher, could the

6 witness please be shown ID D152.

7 Q. Sir, you are Witness B. Is your name and surname underneath

8 Witness B?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Beneath your name and surname, can we see the date and place of

11 your birth?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Underneath the day, month, and year of your birth, can we see your

14 profession?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Sir, when we talk about the places that are listed underneath your

17 profession, could you please use these designations provided here, namely,

18 town A, town B, town C, instead of the actual names of these towns. Also,

19 I kindly ask you that when you mention the persons whose names are listed

20 underneath the town names, you use the following designations. Friend 1,

21 friend 2, friend 3, and friend 4, instead of their real names. Have you

22 understood this?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us what your marital status is? Are you married?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6707

1 Q. Do you have any children?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Have you done your military service; and if so, when and where?

4 A. Yes. In Zagreb. 1973, 1974.

5 Q. Do you have a criminal record?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Can you tell us whether you were employed, if ever; and if so,

8 where?

9 A. After I did my military service, I worked at SIK Maglic, in the

10 construction plant there, and then in the furniture factory.

11 Q. After working in this company, did you go to work for a different

12 company?

13 A. Then I started a private business of my own.

14 Q. When did you start working as a self-employed person?

15 A. From 1983.

16 Q. In 1992, did you work as a self-employed person then as well?

17 A. Yes, until the war.

18 Q. When did you stop working as a self-employed person?

19 A. Well, when the war started and until it ended. That was the

20 interruption.

21 Q. Before the war conflict broke out in April 1992, did you work

22 outside the territory of the municipality of [redacted]

23 A. [redacted]

24 Q. [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 6708

1 A. I travelled very often.

2 Q. Just before the war conflict broke out, did you have a car

3 accident; and if so, where?

4 A. I did have a car accident, towards the end of March 1992, on the

5 road between Pluzine and [redacted], near the village of [redacted].

6 Q. Were you injured then?

7 A. [redacted].

8 Q. [redacted]. Can you tell us where you

9 received medical treatment after the accident?

10 A. The [redacted].

11 Q. [redacted], was it suggested to

12 you that you should go for further examinations to the hospital in

13 [redacted]

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry. I made a

15 mistake. I used the name of the town that I was not supposed to use.

16 This is actually town A.

17 JUDGE HUNT: It will be redacted. And I think that we'll cease

18 there. We'll resume again at 9.30 in the morning.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 31st day of May,

21 2001, at 9.30 a.m.