Page 6823
1 Tuesday, 5 June 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Krnojelac, we're in a new courtroom. Are
10 you able to hear the proceedings in a language which you can understand?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I can follow.
12 THE INTERPRETER: The accused does not have a microphone.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I can
14 follow the proceedings and thank you for asking me. I'm happy to say a
15 word in this courtroom in what has been almost a year.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, thank you, Mr. Krnojelac.
17 Yes, Ms. Kuo, you're cross-examining.
18 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 WITNESS: ZARKO VUKOVIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vukovic. Before the break, we were discussing
23 the visits you made to the KP Dom to visit your former colleague RJ.
24 During your first visit, you went with another colleague, Spomenka
25 Hamovic, and she brought medicine from RJ's wife for him, right?
Page 6824
1 A. No. She came to see me and asked me to join her and go and visit
2 and hand in those medicines.
3 Q. So RJ's wife gave the medicine to Mrs. Hamovic, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know why RJ's wife could not visit him herself at the KP
6 Dom?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. When you went to visit with Spomenka Hamovic, she also brought
9 bread and meat and strawberries for RJ; isn't that right?
10 A. I don't think so. She didn't bring anything but a pack of
11 cigarettes and some medication.
12 Q. RJ and Mrs. Hamovic were colleagues and very close when they
13 worked together at the school, isn't that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And Mrs. Hamovic is a compassionate person, right? She taught
16 handicapped children?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you went to visit and RJ was brought to the warden's office,
19 he immediately asked Milorad Krnojelac about the fate of Halim Konjo;
20 isn't that right?
21 A. No, he didn't ask him at all.
22 Q. And isn't it true that Mr. Krnojelac said, "Don't ask. He's
23 dead"?
24 A. That's not true.
25 Q. When Spomenka Hamovic heard this comment, she shuddered at the
Page 6825
1 thought of it, isn't that right, because --
2 A. She didn't hear that comment because it didn't happen. That
3 conversation did not take place.
4 Q. During that visit, at some point Mr. Krnojelac left the room,
5 right, because he had an official visit?
6 A. He left for a brief moment. I don't know why. We were talking
7 and probably he was considerate enough to leave us alone for a while. I
8 think actually he was ordering coffee when he went out.
9 Q. All four of you were colleagues together at the school, right?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. There were no reason for him to leave the three of you alone to
12 conduct any sort of private conversation, was there?
13 A. I don't think he did.
14 Q. When you met with RJ, he wanted to get out of KP Dom; isn't that
15 right?
16 A. No. He didn't want to get out because he couldn't get out. In
17 fact, he always wanted to get out but he couldn't. I mean RJ -- if I
18 understood you correctly, RJ always wanted to get out but he couldn't. He
19 even asked if we could help him get out, but neither Milorad nor I could
20 give him that sort of help because we had no say in any decision making,
21 and, of course, we would have gladly released him if we had been able to.
22 Q. But RJ did ask you and also Mr. Krnojelac for your help, right?
23 A. Yes. But we couldn't help him at all. He just asked, "Can you
24 help me?" We said, "No, we can't. I can't and Milorad can't. It doesn't
25 depend on us."
Page 6826
1 Q. You felt bad that RJ was in the KP Dom because you knew there was
2 nothing to justify his detention, right?
3 A. Well, I was hard hit by the fact that all of them were detained,
4 not only him. I didn't know whether they were guilty of anything. I
5 didn't know that RJ was guilty of anything, but I thought that if there
6 had been anything, he would prove that he wasn't guilty of anything.
7 Q. You said if you could have helped him, you would have helped him.
8 A. Yes, I would have gladly helped him.
9 Q. You -- on this visit when RJ asked for help in being released, you
10 yourself asked Milorad Krnojelac if he could exert any impact so that RJ
11 could be discharged, right?
12 A. Yes, I did ask, and he said he couldn't help at all because he
13 didn't have a say in it.
14 Q. So before that moment, you yourself thought that Milorad Krnojelac
15 had power to impact RJ's release. Otherwise, you wouldn't have asked,
16 right?
17 A. No. I knew that he couldn't. It's just that we were answering
18 [redacted] question at the same time. I said he couldn't, and he said at the
19 same time that he couldn't either. I even knew that we could not arrange
20 a visit, so we took a roundabout way of doing it.
21 Q. I'll direct you to the statement that you gave to Defence
22 investigators on February 17th of this year. It's paragraph 6. You
23 discussed how you went on your first visit to deliver the heart medicine,
24 and you stated, "I then asked Mico" meaning Mr. Krnojelac, "whether he
25 could exert any impact so that RJ could be discharged." So you yourself
Page 6827
1 asked Mr. Krnojelac if he could exert any impact and then he told you no.
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. On your second visit to RJ, you went with Milisa Dakic, who is a
4 cousin of RJ's wife, right?
5 A. No. He's not a cousin of his wife, [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted].
8 Q. He was very close with RJ, right?
9 A. Well, [redacted], of course they were
10 close.
11 Q. This was -- did you know where Mr. Dakic lived during this time?
12 He was in Foca still, right?
13 A. No, he left Foca a long time ago.
14 Q. When you met Mr. Dakic, where was that? I mean when you made the
15 plans to go visit RJ together.
16 A. We met downtown in front of the grill bar. We went in for a drink
17 and sat there for a while, and among other things, he asked me after
18 [redacted]. I didn't know until then that he had lived in that house and I
19 didn't know they were friends. But I told him about [redacted], that he had
20 been arrested, and he asked, "Can we visit him?" I said no, and in any
21 case, you have to arrange it at Velecevo with the military authorities,
22 and if you get their approval, then you can go. And that is exactly what
23 he did. And the next day, he informed me that we could go there together,
24 and we did.
25 Q. Let me remind you that you should refer to your former colleague
Page 6828
1 by "RJ." When you met Mr. Dakic and he asked after RJ --
2 A. I apologise.
3 Q. -- you had just been to visit him not too long ago, right, at the
4 KP Dom?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you went to visit KP Dom that time, you did not -- you went
7 directly to the KP Dom. You didn't go first to Velecevo, did you?
8 A. He had been to Velecevo, Dakic did.
9 Q. I'm asking about the first visit. When you went with
10 Mrs. Hamovic, you did not go to Velecevo first, you simply went to the KP
11 Dom, right?
12 A. No, we didn't. That's true.
13 Q. Yet when Mr. Dakic asked about visiting, you said that you could
14 not visit RJ. That's not true, is it? You did. You just visited him.
15 A. I told him you couldn't go there.
16 Q. Mr. Dakic had military connections at Velecevo, and those were the
17 connections that you said he used, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In fact, Mr. Dakic was the person who eventually arranged for RJ
20 to be released, right?
21 A. I don't know. I don't know about that. He promised that he would
22 try to do whatever he could. Because Mico and I were not able to do
23 anything, so he promised that if there was anything he could do, he would
24 do it. But we didn't hear from each other since. He left at that time.
25 Q. So you don't actually know whether Mr. Dakic arranged for RJ's
Page 6829
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Page 6830
1 release or not, right?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. In fact, you don't know at all who arranged for RJ's release, do
4 you?
5 A. No. I assume it was Dakic, but I don't know. I had no access to
6 such information.
7 Q. What was Mr. Dakic doing during this time when you met him? What
8 was his -- why was he even in Foca?
9 A. I think he had come to visit his own family.
10 Q. When -- you said that Dakic was the one who arranged the visit by
11 going to his military connections in Velecevo, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You're saying that at that time, you had already told Mr. Dakic
14 that Mr. Krnojelac did not have any power to arrange for visits, right?
15 A. I think he couldn't exert any influence. That's why I told him to
16 go and arrange it up there.
17 Q. When Dakic, Mr. Dakic, heard that RJ was being held at the KP Dom,
18 he was unhappy about it or surprised, right?
19 A. No, I don't think he was particularly surprised.
20 Q. But he was close enough friends with RJ that he asked if you
21 could, if you could visit RJ, and in fact, the next day you went, right?
22 A. No, he didn't ask me to go. I just agreed to go with him if that
23 was allowed. I wanted to avail myself of the opportunity to visit [redacted]
24 together with him because I couldn't find another opportunity.
25 Q. When Mr. Dakic went to Velecevo, he did not ask the military
Page 6831
1 authorities to have RJ released, did he? I mean before you went to the KP
2 Dom.
3 A. I don't know about such things. I didn't go with him up there.
4 Q. In fact, when you went to visit the KP Dom this time, you also
5 went to see Milorad Krnojelac in the warden's office, right, before RJ
6 could be brought to you?
7 A. [No translation].
8 Q. And when RJ was brought to you and you all met in Mr. Krnojelac's
9 warden's office, Mr. Dakic also asked Mr. Krnojelac if he could discharge
10 RJ; isn't that right?
11 A. No. He received us in this other office, the auxiliary one, the
12 one we used the first time.
13 Q. You mean the deputy warden's office which is attached to the
14 larger warden's office, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... fact that the office
17 Mr. Krnojelac was using was the big warden's office; it's just that you
18 were using -- he let you use the deputy warden's office for the visit,
19 right?
20 A. I don't know if it was smaller, but it was a pretty private
21 office. That's where we sat and that's where RJ came when he came.
22 Q. So you're saying you never went into the larger warden's office?
23 A. No, I didn't.
24 Q. Never?
25 A. No.
Page 6832
1 Q. So if there were a machine-gun there, pointed out at the
2 prisoners' quarters, you wouldn't have seen it, would you? You weren't
3 there.
4 A. I didn't see anything.
5 Q. You weren't there in that office, the warden's office?
6 A. Well, I cannot remember now whether I peeked in there first before
7 going into the other office.
8 Q. When you met with Mr. Krnojelac and Mr. Dakic -- sorry?
9 JUDGE HUNT: We don't seem to have a translation of that answer.
10 MS. KUO:
11 Q. Sir, you started to say something and I interrupted you with a
12 question. Could you repeat or tell us what you were going to say.
13 A. I know I went into this office where the secretary was, and then
14 this other office into which he showed us was right next to the first
15 one. I remember peeking into his office first and then he waved his hand
16 sort of and showed me to go into the other one.
17 Q. And it was during this time when you peeked into his office that
18 you're sure you never saw any machine-gun; is that what you're telling
19 us?
20 A. I didn't see that anywhere.
21 Q. When you learned -- or you've told us that you heard that
22 Mr. Krnojelac did not have any authority to release or effect the release
23 of detainees, you were surprised, right?
24 A. Well, no. I wasn't really surprised by anything during that
25 entire war. I had sort of accepted everything as it came. He was the one
Page 6833
1 who admitted prisoners and released them but he had no say in anything.
2 He couldn't even approve a visit, because if he could have, he would have
3 approved a visit for my sake. He wouldn't have waited for Dakic or
4 anybody else to ask.
5 Q. Normally a warden does have say in his -- in the running of the
6 prison, right? He has authority over the entire prison, normally?
7 A. Yes, but this was not a prison entirely under his purview. There
8 was a military part controlled by the military authorities and there was
9 this other part which he was in charge of, and that included the Drina
10 Economic Unit, the farm, et cetera, the production of food, which was very
11 much needed, and taking care of that is the first task he ever received
12 from the executive council, as far as I know.
13 Q. Mr. Vukovic, you never asked Mr. Krnojelac to visit RJ and were
14 refused, were you?
15 A. Well, I did ask once before if I could come and visit, and he
16 said, "No, no, don't even try. I can't decide about that."
17 Q. He didn't tell you where you could go to make the arrangements,
18 did he?
19 A. I didn't really insist.
20 Q. He didn't tell you to go to the military authorities, did he?
21 A. No. I didn't ask about that even because it was dangerous to go
22 anywhere and intervene and ask to go and visit.
23 Q. Mr. Krnojelac himself never offered to you that if you wanted to
24 have anything done, you had to go, you or someone else had to go to the
25 military, right? He never said that to you.
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Page 6835
1 A. No. We never discussed that topic at all.
2 Q. Mr. Krnojelac knew exactly whom to go to, to see whether detainees
3 could be released, didn't he?
4 A. I don't know whether he knew.
5 Q. Well, he forwarded requests from Muslim detainees to be released
6 to the proper authorities, didn't he?
7 A. I don't know. I didn't work at the KP Dom.
8 Q. When Mr. Krnojelac told RJ in your presence that he couldn't help
9 him, that wasn't true, right? Mr. Krnojelac knew exactly where to go and
10 who had authority over these detainees; isn't that right?
11 A. I don't know about that. He may have known, but I don't know.
12 Q. When Mr. Dakic and you and Mr. Krnojelac met with RJ, isn't it
13 true that Mr. Krnojelac gave Mr. Dakic the phone number of somebody at the
14 Crisis Staff for him to contact regarding RJ's release?
15 A. No, he didn't give him anything because Milisa Dakic offered to
16 try and arrange it of his own accord, because both Mico and I answered
17 [redacted] that we couldn't do anything. And then Dakic said, "I will try."
18 Where he was supposed to go and try, we didn't know. We didn't ask.
19 Q. Sir, are you absolutely sure that Milorad Krnojelac never gave
20 Milisa Dakic the phone number of the Crisis Staff?
21 A. I'm absolutely certain, because Milisa had been up there in this
22 staff before.
23 Q. Mr. Vukovic, when you met with RJ on those occasions, it was clear
24 to you that RJ thought that Mr. Krnojelac could help him, right?
25 A. No, no. He didn't think anything of the kind because as soon as
Page 6836
1 he heard my reply and his reply, he knew that we couldn't do anything and
2 he didn't insist any further. He knew that if we could have, we would
3 have helped him.
4 Q. It was clear to you that RJ thought Milorad Krnojelac knew what
5 was happening to detainees at the KP Dom and asked him about it, right?
6 A. I think he didn't know because he didn't ask anything apart from
7 whether he could help him. I don't think he asked any other questions.
8 Q. Isn't it true that RJ asked Mr. Krnojelac in your presence about
9 what happened to a group of detainees who disappeared overnight?
10 A. That conversation did not take place. He didn't ask him anything
11 in our presence.
12 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Krnojelac told RJ, "Don't ask. I don't
13 know"?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Sir, you were living in Foca during this time, not inside the KP
16 Dom, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So you were in a position or, at least, in a better position than
19 RJ to know what was going on around town, right?
20 A. In town what was going on? Yes. But what happened in prison, I
21 didn't know about that.
22 Q. And RJ asked you to tell him things about what was happening in
23 town because he was inside the prison and couldn't know, right?
24 A. Well, he didn't ask me. We didn't talk about anything.
25 Q. How long were these visits with RJ?
Page 6837
1 A. While we would have a cup of coffee; very short.
2 Q. And during that whole time, you never talked about what was
3 happening in the KP Dom?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Sir, there was never a time when Milorad Krnojelac was absent from
6 the KP Dom for an extended period of time, right?
7 A. Well, he was away for a longer period of time when his son had had
8 his accident and when he was in Belgrade. I don't know exactly for how
9 long he was absent, perhaps 15 or 20 days, something like that. I don't
10 know exactly. It's a longer period of time.
11 Q. Did RJ ever ask you about this period of time when Milorad
12 Krnojelac was absent, where he had gone?
13 A. Well, we didn't even talk. How could we talk about that when he
14 was detained and I was a free man? We had only those two contacts.
15 Q. Were those contacts before or after Mr. Krnojelac went to visit
16 his son?
17 A. I think that one was before and the other one was after.
18 Q. So you're saying that during this period of time when
19 Mr. Krnojelac was visiting his son, that was not a period of time that RJ
20 asked about why Mr. Krnojelac was not at the KP Dom, right? That's not --
21 he never asked you about that time.
22 A. Well, he could not ask me. How could he ask me when I did not
23 have contact with him when Milorad was absent? So he could not have asked
24 me even if he had wanted to. So it's impossible.
25 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you to reason things out or to use your logic.
Page 6838
1 I'm just asking you factual questions. So the answer is no, he never
2 asked you, right?
3 You -- in your meetings or in your -- during your coffee visits to
4 RJ, you told RJ that Milorad Krnojelac had no power to help him and that,
5 in fact, Mr. Krnojelac was dissatisfied with his job, right?
6 A. That's what he told him, that he could not help him. And I said
7 to him that I could not help him either.
8 Q. Isn't it true that you told RJ that Milorad Krnojelac was
9 dissatisfied with his job?
10 A. Well, we didn't talk about that. How could we talk about that?
11 Milorad was present there.
12 Q. You once told RJ that Milorad Krnojelac had run away to the
13 countryside, right?
14 A. I never said that to him.
15 Q. This was all part of the story that you were trying to present to
16 RJ, that Milorad Krnojelac did not want to be warden and was forced to be
17 warden, right?
18 A. I had two visits with RJ. Both took place with Milorad being
19 nearby, so I couldn't say anything in his name.
20 Q. As part of the story also, you even told RJ that Milorad Krnojelac
21 tried to kill himself because he was so dissatisfied with the job. Isn't
22 that right?
23 A. That's nonsense. That's nonsense. I could not have said that.
24 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never did try to get out of his job, did he?
25 A. Well, he did talk to me about it a few times, that it was a very
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Page 6840
1 difficult job for him, that he'd be glad to leave it. And once he even
2 said to Mladjenovic that he would not do this job any more.
3 Q. And the reasons he gave for not wanting to do the job were that it
4 was a hard job at his age, right?
5 A. Well, it was a hard job to do at that time because food supplies
6 had to be provided and you had nothing to pay with. And then you'd have
7 to get food in exchange for cattle or cattle feed or something. It's very
8 difficult.
9 Q. The question is not whether in fact it was a hard job or not, the
10 question was how Mr. Milorad Krnojelac felt about it. He --
11 A. He explained, he explained the job in the following way, that it
12 was difficult.
13 Q. Okay. I don't need to have another job description from you. The
14 question was, Mr. Krnojelac said he was dissatisfied with the job only
15 because he said it was hard, not because he disagreed with any of the
16 politics of it, right?
17 A. Well, it's not only a question of politics. He explained this to
18 me because I understood that job, that it was hard for him to do that job.
19 Q. It was hard for him to do the job because there was so much to do,
20 right?
21 A. Well, that's probably the case, too, but one of the reasons was
22 that he said, "I, such an old man, have to go and to beg people for
23 help."
24 Q. He never once said to you, "I disagree with the policy of the
25 Muslims being detained here and that's why I want to get out of the job,"
Page 6841
1 right? He never once said that to you?
2 A. Well, listen, he and I thought along the same lines before as
3 well, and that is that nobody should be detained without an indictment,
4 and these were times of war and these people were separated from the rest,
5 and that didn't belong to him either. He was in charge of the convicts
6 who were already serving their sentences, and he had to provide food for
7 them, to organise their activities and things like that. That required
8 quite a bit of work.
9 Q. So the answer is no, he never said that to you, right?
10 A. What do you mean? What did he never say to me?
11 Q. My question to you was whether Mr. Krnojelac ever told you he
12 disagreed with the Muslims being detained there, as a reason for him
13 wanting to get out of the job. And I take it from your answer that the
14 answer is no, he never said that to you.
15 A. No, we talked but that was not within his job. We were talking
16 about whether we agreed or disagreed. We did not talk about the job in
17 that way, no.
18 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never took any steps to get himself removed from his
19 job, did he?
20 A. Well, yes. I'm telling you right now that he said to Mladjenovic
21 that he couldn't do that job any more, that it was not for him.
22 Q. That was in June of 1993, more than a year later; isn't that
23 right?
24 A. That was, I don't know, June, July, 1992, yes.
25 Q. In July of 1993, one of the Muslim detainees escaped KP Dom; isn't
Page 6842
1 that right?
2 A. I don't know about that.
3 Q. When precisely was Milorad Krnojelac removed as warden?
4 A. Well, I said that it was August 1993. However, it was shown
5 exactly here in court last time that it was the 1st of July 1993.
6 However, my impression was that it was August, because of his coming to
7 school, that is.
8 Q. When did he come to school?
9 A. He came to school on the 4th of September 1994.
10 Q. We are talking about 1993, sir. You don't know exactly when
11 Mr. Krnojelac was removed as warden in 1993, do you?
12 A. Last time, what was presented here was the 1st of July, and I
13 thought it was August because I know that he waited for a job for a year.
14 Q. In fact, after the 1st of July 1993, Mr. Krnojelac continued to go
15 to the KP Dom, right?
16 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that.
17 Q. Mr. Krnojelac -- you told us that finally in 1993, in June,
18 Mr. Krnojelac asked Mr. Mladjenovic to be removed from his position.
19 Mr. Krnojelac never told you anything about the Department of Defence
20 contacting him, did he?
21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?
22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic?
23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I object because the witness said that
24 in June or July 1992, he submitted a request to Mladjenovic, and my
25 learned friend has been saying that it was in 1993, but the witness said
Page 6843
1 1992.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Let's just see about that.
3 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I see --
4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, page 16, line 23 does say 1992.
5 MS. KUO: I stand corrected, Your Honour. I misheard it.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
7 MS. KUO:
8 Q. You're saying that the request was made as early as 1992. That
9 request was never repeated in 1993, right?
10 A. Well, possibly, but we never discussed that subject. Why would he
11 repeat all of that to me again?
12 Q. During the year or so that you claim Mr. Krnojelac waited on this
13 request, he did nothing further to make sure that he could be removed from
14 the job, right? That was the only thing he did, one request?
15 A. I stated about this once when he asked for that, but he probably
16 asked several times. Why would he keep telling me, "I've asked for this,
17 I've asked for this," et cetera, et cetera? Who was I to him so that he
18 would have to report to me all the time?
19 Q. You don't actually know whether he made any further requests after
20 that, do you?
21 A. I've already answered that the first time. Why would I repeat my
22 answer?
23 Q. Sir, the first time you said he probably did make requests, and I
24 just want to make sure because you told us he never talked to you about
25 it. If he never talked to you about it, you don't know. That's the
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1 honest answer, right?
2 A. We had very few contacts from Saint Nikolas Day 1992 until the
3 summer of 1993, because I was taken to the front line to stand guard
4 actually at the village of Brusna.
5 Q. When is Saint Nikolas Day, or when was it in --
6 A. The 19th of December, 1992. When the massacre was committed at
7 Josanica, I was mobilised then and then I was taken to the front line.
8 Q. From June until that time, you were in a position to meet with
9 Mr. Krnojelac, even just being around town?
10 A. Perhaps we met, but I'm not sure that we did.
11 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never told you -- and the answer to this is just a
12 yes or a no, okay? Mr. Krnojelac, during the entire time from June or
13 July of 1992 until he was removed as warden in the summer of 1993, never
14 once told you he made any requests to be removed, except for that one,
15 right?
16 A. It's hard for me to remember whether there were other
17 conversations about that subject. I think that I got the impression that
18 he did not want that. Was it from one conversation or two or three, I
19 could not state that precisely right now. You know, it's been a very long
20 time ago.
21 Q. Mr. Vukovic, you're absolutely sure that Mr. Krnojelac made this
22 single request in June or July of 1992, not 1993, right?
23 A. I'm sure that he made it then, but he did later too, I think.
24 Q. Ah, okay. Why don't you tell us about that now? Now you're
25 telling us he made another request. Tell us about that other request.
Page 6846
1 When was it?
2 A. I can't remember.
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise for
4 interrupting my learned friend. However, I think that the appropriate --
5 that the interpretation was inappropriate. The witness said that probably
6 he asked later. He did not say decidedly that he asked for it; he
7 thinks.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Can you tell me where? I'm looking for it in the
9 transcript.
10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Just a minute,
11 please. Page 19, line 22.
12 JUDGE HUNT: But the transcript reads that, "He did later, too, I
13 think." And the question is, "Now, you're telling us he made another
14 request." Is that the difference you want to draw? I couldn't see any
15 word "probable," that's why I asked you.
16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. The
17 witness said that later he probably made requests, and that is not what
18 the interpretation said. And then my learned friend asked ...
19 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Well, then you say the interpretation is
20 wrong at line 22. It says, "But he did later, too, I think"; it was, "He
21 probably did."
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE HUNT: That means we'll have to check through the
24 interpreters.
25 MS. KUO: I accept that there's more ambiguity to it than I
Page 6847
1 assumed.
2 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Ms. Kuo, you'd better ask the question
3 again.
4 MS. KUO:
5 Q. On what basis do you think he probably made another request?
6 Certainly not because he told you himself, right?
7 A. I got that impression, that he did not want that job, probably on
8 the basis of several conversations with him.
9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never told you that anything the Department of
10 Defence did prompted his desire to leave the job, did he? I meant the
11 Ministry of Defence.
12 A. We did not discuss that subject.
13 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never told you that he had no idea what was going on
14 at KP Dom regarding the Muslim detainees, did he?
15 A. Yes. He said to me that he did not know about that.
16 Q. So Mr. Krnojelac never told you that he met on a regular basis or,
17 rather, frequently with Muslim detainees? He never told you that, did he?
18 A. He told me once that outside, a group of them had passed by him
19 and among that group was a neighbour of his, and that it was very
20 unpleasant for him to see them there on that other side.
21 Q. But Mr. Krnojelac specifically told you that he didn't know at all
22 what was happening about Muslim detainees being abused or mistreated at
23 the KP Dom, right?
24 A. He said to me that that was a separate part of the KP Dom that was
25 given for these prisoners, and that he had nothing to do with that, and
Page 6848
1 that he could not exercise any influence over their detention or release
2 or whatever, that practically, he had nothing to do with them.
3 Q. My question was -- I understand what you're saying about the
4 influence that Mr. Krnojelac had or not, but my question was about his
5 knowledge. He knew what was happening with the Muslim detainees being
6 abused and mistreated, right?
7 A. No, no. How could I know? He never talked to me about that. He
8 did not talk about that part of the prison at all. He did not talk about
9 these detainees.
10 Q. He never told you -- but in fact, detainees like RJ did tell
11 Mr. Krnojelac what was happening in terms of people being abused and
12 mistreated, right? Even in your presence.
13 A. Well, I don't know about that. I don't know about that. Not in
14 my presence. In my presence, no, never.
15 Q. When you talked with Mr. Krnojelac, did he ever express any
16 dissatisfaction with how the Muslims -- how the military presence in the
17 KP Dom was affecting his job?
18 A. We did not discuss that subject. He said to me that he had
19 nothing to do with that over there, and there was no need to discuss it
20 any further.
21 Q. So Mr. Krnojelac never told you that he met -- that he habitually
22 met with the more prominent members of the Muslim community who were
23 detained in the KP Dom, did he? He never told you that?
24 A. No, except for this case that he mentioned when they passed by
25 him.
Page 6849
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Page 6850
1 Q. Did you know [redacted]?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never mentioned that he met with [redacted], did
4 he?
5 A. No, we didn't talk about that. We didn't talk about that at all.
6 Q. [redacted]
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You knew he was detained at the KP Dom, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never told you that he met with [redacted], did he?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know Husein Lojo?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never told you that he met with him when he was
15 detained at the KP Dom, did he?
16 A. No, no. No, I told you, we did not discuss that subject at all.
17 Q. When you were trying -- the two times that you went to visit the
18 KP Dom, neither time did anybody tell you that you had to go through Savo
19 Todovic, did they?
20 A. No.
21 Q. No one ever told you that Savo Todovic was in charge of the
22 military part of the prison, did they?
23 A. No, no one did.
24 Q. Now, you were good friends with Milorad Krnojelac before, during,
25 and after the war, right?
Page 6851
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In fact, during the war, there were -- you were -- you had many
3 opportunities and, in fact, you were together quite often, right?
4 A. No, no. We met very seldom. Our jobs took us apart, and we moved
5 in different directions.
6 Q. When Mr. Krnojelac was -- did Mr. Krnojelac ever discuss to you
7 the circumstances under which he was given this work assignment?
8 A. Yes. We commented upon that. He said that he got a work
9 obligation to become the director of Drina in the KP Dom, and I told him I
10 got a work obligation as well and that we both had to accept that,
11 regardless of the extent to which we liked this or not.
12 Q. When you received your work obligation, nobody accompanied you
13 personally to your assignment, right? You were given the assignment and
14 then you went to that place by yourself.
15 A. I stayed with my work obligation at the job that I was doing
16 before the war to organise the functioning of schools, and I remained in
17 that area until Saint Nikolas Day, that is to say, the 19th of December,
18 1992.
19 Q. I meant the day that you received your assignment, nobody
20 personally escorted you to that workplace, did they?
21 A. I just got an assignment. I remained at the place where I was.
22 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never told you during this conversation when he said
23 he accepted his position reluctantly, that someone physically took him to
24 the KP Dom immediately, right? He never told you that.
25 A. I think that he went to the KP Dom in a car. I don't know whether
Page 6852
1 it was in the presence of the president of the municipality or the
2 president of the executive council or someone.
3 Q. Mr. Krnojelac never said to you that he felt like he was being
4 taken prisoner and being forced to work at the KP Dom as if he were a
5 prisoner, right? He never said that to you.
6 A. Well, he didn't say as prisoner. He felt unpleasant about taking
7 over an important position, and those were the comments that he was
8 making, not that he was being taken prisoner.
9 Q. So when you said you were forced to take this work assignment and
10 Mr. Krnojelac was forced to take his assignment, you didn't really mean
11 actual physical force, that he was forced to take the assignment. It was
12 more sort of in an obligation kind of way, right?
13 A. Obligation, yes, because failure to fulfil an obligation meant
14 going to prison, because those who failed to do their military service
15 went to prison. They were subject to punishment.
16 Q. So this was a military assignment for Mr. Krnojelac, wasn't it?
17 A. Yes. Everything was an obligation then. It was a military --
18 sorry, no. It was a work obligation. That's as far as he and I were
19 concerned. Other people were summoned, were called up into the army, and
20 we were too old to be -- to do active military service.
21 Q. Sir, this was wartime, right?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. And everybody during wartime has obligations, right?
24 A. Yes, but not everybody had the same obligations. Those who were
25 older than 50 did not have the same obligations as those under 50.
Page 6853
1 Everyone falls within a certain category. So that the youngest people
2 went to the front line and older people remained in the rear. They did
3 their work duty.
4 Q. And someone had to coordinate how each person would do the job,
5 right? There were authorities that would coordinate that, decide who
6 would go where; isn't that right?
7 A. That was the executive council of the municipal assembly which
8 decided who did military service -- who did their work obligation, and the
9 military authorities decided who to send to the front line and put into
10 combat units.
11 Q. But during wartime, the military and the civilian authorities must
12 cooperate; isn't that right?
13 A. I suppose so.
14 Q. And this, you understood, was your military -- I understand you're
15 not at the front line, but nevertheless, because it's wartime, it is a
16 military obligation for you to do your work duty, right?
17 A. That work duty was on par with military duty. If anybody failed
18 to fulfil their work duty, they would go to prison.
19 Q. In your job during this wartime, before you went to the front, you
20 were coordinating reopening the schools, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you worked with an officer for military issues in close
23 cooperation to get the schools reopened, right?
24 A. No. I received an assignment from the president of the
25 municipality to organise the work of schools.
Page 6854
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Page 6855
1 Q. But you had an officer for military issues working with you,
2 right?
3 A. Oh, no. That was at my enterprise. There was a military sort of
4 clerk who worked there. If you mean the statement I gave earlier?
5 Q. When you had this officer, the clerk that you said, the military
6 clerk, that was during the war?
7 A. No. That was before the war. We had a clerk for defence and
8 protection. That was his title.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, it may be that the acoustics in this room
10 are greater than we are used to, but your voice is very intrusive. If you
11 want to talk to Mr. Bakrac, may I suggest you sit closer to him so you
12 don't have to shout? Did you want to take an objection to something?
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I was just
14 discussing with my colleague that the answer of the witness was not
15 recorded, to the effect this clerk had this duty before the war, but he
16 made his point again in his next answer to my learned friend's question,
17 so it makes no more difference for the record.
18 JUDGE HUNT: That's good to hear, but, please, when you are
19 discussing with Mr. Bakrac, I'm sure you are diverting the witness - not
20 intentionally, but you are - because he can hear it and he can understand
21 it. So just speak a little bit more quietly, please.
22 Yes, Ms. Kuo?
23 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Vukovic, did this clerk --
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll take
Page 6856
1 care.
2 MS. KUO:
3 Q. Mr. Vukovic, did this clerk for military affairs stay on and
4 continue working with you during the war?
5 A. Yes. At the time when we were making preparations for the
6 reopening of schools, he was still with me at the enterprise.
7 Q. And you -- in September of 1992, you returned to the Veselin
8 Maslesa school where you had been principal years before, right?
9 A. Yes. On the 16th of August, I organised the work of schools
10 because we had finished the previous school year prematurely, so we
11 started school on the 16th of August. Since there was no maths teacher, I
12 was assigned to be the maths teacher, and my work at my enterprise was
13 placed on hold indefinitely.
14 Q. The discussions about having a math teacher assigned took place
15 after June and July of 1992, right? They continued after that time?
16 A. No. In August 1992, we started working at the school, and there
17 was a math teacher, a lady, who worked until the 15th of September. And
18 then with -- having received a work order starting with the 1st of
19 September, I transferred from my enterprise to the school to work as the
20 math teacher. I received this assignment from the military department to
21 work at the school starting with the 1st of September.
22 Q. In other words, the decision for you to become a math teacher at
23 the school was not made until August or September of 1992, right?
24 A. No, not at the Veselin Maslesa school. I got assigned to be the
25 acting teacher as of 1st September 1992. Because the schools had finished
Page 6857
1 early, the previous year, in May, so they started early the next school
2 year, on the 16th of August, to try and catch up.
3 Q. And the authority that assigned you to this work was the Serbian
4 Municipality of Foca, the school administration itself, right?
5 A. The school administration, yes. The acting director issued this
6 order and signed it, and he was told to do so by the Secretariat for
7 National Defence, I suppose. They sort of indicated who could be assigned
8 to this work. The president of the municipality approved that my work at
9 my enterprise be placed on hold, sort of, so that I could transfer to the
10 school.
11 Q. So it was the Ministry of Defence that made this decision
12 ultimately; isn't that right?
13 A. I don't know who passed this decision on to the acting school
14 director, but that's the way it was handed to me.
15 Q. The Ministry of Defence had to be notified as well that you had
16 been given this assignment; isn't that right?
17 A. Probably. The acting director probably informed them.
18 Q. You've said "probably." I'd like to show you what's Exhibit D112,
19 which has already been entered into evidence.
20 MS. KUO: You may place that on the ELMO.
21 Q. Mr. Vukovic, if you look at the very bottom of this document,
22 where there are a list of people to whom copies need to be sent, there is
23 number 1, the person named, that's you; number 2, the school archives; and
24 number 3, the Ministry of Defence, Foca section, right?
25 A. Well, if you look at this, everything is clear. You can see that
Page 6858
1 it's the way I said it. The acting director signed this and ordered me to
2 be transferred there.
3 Q. So it's not "probably," it's for certain that the Ministry of
4 Defence needed to be notified, right?
5 A. Well, that's not within my competence. It's within the competence
6 of the acting director. I didn't follow his work.
7 Q. So I'm just asking about the document. You've told us that when
8 you see the document, it makes clear to you he did have to be notified,
9 and I'm just asking you to confirm that.
10 A. I cannot confirm whether the acting director notified someone or
11 not. I said that I got the decision. Whether it was copied to the
12 Secretariat of Defence or anybody else, I cannot know that.
13 Q. Thank you. When you were teaching at the school, you did not
14 report in uniform, military uniform, did you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You wore civilian clothes?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And all the students, obviously, were civilians as well. None of
19 them were soldiers, right?
20 A. There were people who were refugees and had nothing to put on.
21 There were some people like that, even among teachers. Some wore shirts
22 which actually belonged to military uniforms. There were children who
23 also wore anything they could find.
24 Q. Are you telling us that children in the primary school reported in
25 military uniforms?
Page 6859
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Page 6860
1 A. I mean to say that there were cases like that, too, but in
2 general, of course, we tried -- we, the teachers, tried to wear civilian
3 clothes, and children wore whatever they put their hands on. We didn't
4 really worry much about that, whether we were wearing this or that. The
5 important thing was to be dressed somehow.
6 Q. I'm afraid that you've misunderstood my question. The question
7 was whether the students in this primary school reported in military
8 uniform. That was the impression that I thought you were trying to give.
9 The students did not report in military uniform, did they?
10 A. There were cases like that, children who wore parts of military
11 uniform, be it shoes or shirts or trousers. And we never returned --
12 turned anyone back home just because he was dressed like that.
13 Q. And even some of the teachers wore military uniforms, right?
14 A. No, not full military uniforms, but there were teachers who wore
15 military shirts under their sweaters. There were teachers like that.
16 Q. You told us that Milorad Krnojelac left the KP Dom in the summer
17 of 1993 but was not assigned to become the headmaster of the school until
18 September of 1994. And in your statement to Defence investigators, you
19 refer to this time when Mr. Krnojelac did not have an assignment as a form
20 of punishment for his hardly waiting to leave KP Dom. Can you tell us
21 what you meant by that?
22 A. Well, it was my assumption, because he didn't find another job for
23 a whole year. I suppose that was one of the reasons. Another reason was
24 that he wanted to come back to school because he liked that job and he
25 often said that. And since they couldn't find a job for him for a long
Page 6861
1 time, I came to the conclusion that some pressure was exerted to keep it
2 that way because he had asked to leave the Dom.
3 Q. During this time, you're aware that Milorad Krnojelac was not sent
4 to the front line, right?
5 A. Yes, I know that he was not. Not as far as I know, at least. And
6 even by his age, he wasn't in the category that was subject to being sent
7 to the front.
8 Q. He also was not forced to do any other kind of job, any kind of
9 menial labour, for instance, right?
10 A. No, that didn't happen. It would have been illogical for him to
11 become a menial worker after being director of the Drina enterprise. That
12 would have been inappropriate.
13 Q. That would have been insulting to him, isn't that right?
14 A. Well, I don't think he would have taken it as an insult, but --
15 because he was ready to work.
16 Q. During this time, Mr. Krnojelac's family remained in Foca, right?
17 A. Yes, they remained in Foca.
18 Q. He was able to stay in the apartment where he was staying at that
19 time, the one that used to belong to Dr. Sostevic, right?
20 A. You mean Sosevic. Yes, that's where he was.
21 Q. His family was never punished because of this, during this year,
22 right?
23 A. I don't think he was, unless being jobless was a punishment.
24 Q. And in fact, during this whole time when Mr. Krnojelac was
25 jobless, he got credit for social security purposes up till the day before
Page 6862
1 he started as headmaster of the school in 1994, right?
2 A. I don't think anybody got credit for social security purposes
3 during that period, not those who worked and not those who didn't work.
4 Q. In September of 1994, Mr. Krnojelac was able to return to the
5 school where he had worked before, right?
6 A. Yes. Even back in April 1994 he was able to return because that
7 director, who had actually been acting director, retired. But since he
8 was waiting for a teacher's vacancy until September and none appeared
9 before the beginning of the school year, he accepted that job, finally.
10 But he could have returned even in April.
11 Q. So what you're saying is that between April and September 1994,
12 Mr. Krnojelac remained voluntarily jobless because it wasn't the job he
13 wanted, right? He was waiting for the job he wanted.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. As principal, Mr. Krnojelac had permanent contact with
16 representatives of the International Community, including members of the
17 military who were there, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. During this time, Mr. Krnojelac himself expressed concern that he
20 might be on the list of indicted persons by this Tribunal for war crimes,
21 isn't that right?
22 A. No. If he had been concerned about that, he wouldn't have
23 communicated or socialised with them. He wouldn't have received such
24 visits or talked to them.
25 Q. When you gave a statement to Defence investigators, you told them
Page 6863
1 that -- and I'll just quote it; it's in the next-to-last paragraph -- "I
2 remember that he asked me last summer -" and "he" is Mr. Krnojelac - "what
3 I thought of the idea that he asked Major Hans Time whether he was on the
4 list." That was the list of indicted persons from this Tribunal, right?
5 A. We were talking once in a wider circle of people when Kunarac had
6 surrendered, and the conversation was about whether he really should have
7 surrendered or shouldn't have, and Mico said, "If there was an indictment
8 against me, I would turn myself in too." That's the general drift of that
9 conversation. And then he sort of asked, "Do you think there may be an
10 indictment against me?" And I said, "No, because if there were, they
11 would have arrested you a long time ago," because that was a year after
12 the arrival of the representatives of the international community, and
13 their cooperation was in full swing. They often visited the school and
14 brought presents. They talked to people. They entered the school to meet
15 with the students. When Mico was unable to attend, when he was away, he
16 appointed me his deputy for those purposes, asking me to receive them. At
17 no time did we avoid cooperating with them. This man, Hans Time, came
18 very often and we were almost friends. We were simply socialising.
19 Q. Mr. Vukovic, are you aware that at the time Milorad Krnojelac was
20 arrested and brought to the Tribunal, he carried a false identification
21 document?
22 A. I don't know about that.
23 MS. KUO: No further questions, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination, Mr. Vasic?
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, just a few.
Page 6864
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Page 6865
1 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:
2 Q. Mr. Vukovic, in response to a question by my learned friend, you
3 said that Mr. Dakic had been to visit the staff. Which staff did you
4 mean?
5 A. The army staff at Velecevo.
6 Q. Thank you. In your statement, referring to the fact that some
7 teachers wore military shirts and that some children wore parts of
8 uniforms, could you tell me how children of refugees from areas they had
9 to flee due to combat operations were? How were they dressed?
10 A. Those were precisely the children who wore parts of uniforms.
11 They were children of refugees. And some of the teachers were also
12 refugees and wore military shirts under sweaters, and we never asked any
13 questions or objected to that because we knew the shops weren't working,
14 we knew that the Red Cross had no clothing to offer.
15 Q. Thank you, sir. When, with your colleague Mrs. Hamovic you went
16 to the first visit to RJ, to which office did you go?
17 A. I seem to remember that we first peeked into Mico's office and
18 then he told us to go into a different one.
19 Q. On that occasion, did you greet Milorad Krnojelac?
20 A. Of course.
21 Q. Was that before he sent you to a different office?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I have just one more question. You were talking about restarting
24 production, and you mentioned the farm at Velecevo. What did you mean?
25 A. The command, the military command, was in one building, and this
Page 6866
1 farm was in a different building between Velecevo and Brioni. One of
2 Drina's units worked in Velecevo, that is Brioni, and when I mentioned
3 Velecevo, I meant the military command.
4 Q. Did you say one of the tasks of Milorad Krnojelac was to restart
5 production at Velecevo?
6 A. I meant the animal farm at Velecevo.
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Your Honours, Defence
8 has no further questions. It's 11.00 anyway.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, sir, for giving evidence before
10 us. You are now free to leave.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE HUNT: We will adjourn and resume at 11.30.
14 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.
18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
20 A. Good afternoon.
21 Q. Could you please give us your name and surname.
22 JUDGE HUNT: We have to get a solemn declaration first.
23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Would you stand up, please, sir, and would you make
25 the solemn declaration in the document which the usher is handing to you.
Page 6867
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: MILAN PAVLOVIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please.
6 Now, Mr. Vasic.
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Examined by Mr. Vasic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can you give us your name and surname,
10 please.
11 A. Has the typing finished by now? I'm not very good at this kind of
12 thing. May I speak?
13 Q. Yes, please go ahead.
14 A. My name is Milan Pavlovic.
15 Q. Sir, before I start the examination-in-chief, I have something to
16 ask you. Since you and I speak the same language and since my questions
17 and your answers have to be interpreted, could you please pause briefly
18 after every one of my questions, and could you answer only then, please.
19 In front of you on the screen you have a text. When this black square
20 stops completely, that means that the typing has finished and then you can
21 start answering the question.
22 Sir, could you please give us your date of birth; day, month,
23 year.
24 JUDGE HUNT: I think he's taking you very literally. It's
25 actually flashing just off the screen. I can see it on my laptop.
Page 6868
1 When you see the typing finish, sir, you can then answer.
2 A. My year of birth is the 10th of February, 1953, and I was born in
3 Zavidovici.
4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Are you married? Have you got any children?
6 A. Yes. I'm married and I have three daughters.
7 Q. Can you tell me what your daughters do.
8 A. All of them are studying. They are studying.
9 Q. Where did you complete elementary and secondary school?
10 A. I completed secondary and elementary school in Foca.
11 Q. What are you by profession?
12 A. I'm an electrician.
13 Q. After completing school, where did you get a job and when?
14 A. I got a job immediately after I finished secondary school, at the
15 KP Dom, sometime in the month of June 1971.
16 Q. What did you do at the KP Dom from June 1971 onwards?
17 A. For a while, I worked at the furniture factory, perhaps three or
18 four years, and then I was transferred to the metalwork shop, to the
19 central heating unit. I was a foreman at the central heating unit.
20 Q. Until when did you work as a foreman at the central heating unit
21 at the KP Dom?
22 A. I worked there until I retired.
23 Q. And when did you retire; which year?
24 A. I retired in 1990.
25 Q. While you worked at the KP Dom, did the economic unit function
Page 6869
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Page 6870
1 attached to the KP Dom?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who did the central heating unit belong to where you were
4 foreman?
5 A. The job that I held until I retired belonged to the metalwork shop
6 attached to the Drina Economic Unit.
7 Q. At the time when you were working there, before you retired, did
8 the Drina Economic Unit have a director?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you remember who the director of the economic unit was before
11 you retired, that is to say in 1990?
12 A. Well, I think Simovic Milenko was before I retired, as far as I
13 can remember.
14 Q. Sir, tell me, please, in 1992, did you live in Foca?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In which part of Foca did you live?
17 A. I got an apartment just before the war, perhaps seven, eight or
18 ten years before, so I lived in my apartment in Aladza.
19 Q. When the war conflict just broke out on the 8th of April, 1992,
20 where were you?
21 A. I was in my apartment.
22 Q. Until when were you at your apartment, do you remember?
23 A. Well, I was at the apartment until the -- well, when the conflict
24 broke out and perhaps two days after the conflict broke out.
25 Q. Where did you go after that?
Page 6871
1 A. After that, I went with my wife -- after that, I went with my wife
2 to Dragocava, and then I took the path all around because there was lots
3 of water between where we were and where my parents lived, so then I
4 crossed the bridge at the Dragocava to Cerezluk where my parents lived.
5 Q. When you sent out from Dragocava to Cerezluk, was the fighting
6 still on in that part of town where you lived?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you mobilised, sir, and when?
9 A. I was mobilised as soon as I arrived in Cerezluk.
10 Q. And until when were you with that unit?
11 A. Well, I was in that unit until sometime around the end of April.
12 Around the 29th of April, as far as I can remember.
13 Q. And after the end of April, where did you go then?
14 A. After April or, rather, the end of April, orders arrived stating
15 that I should report for work duty at the KP Dom.
16 Q. When you were mobilised, were you issued any weapons and a
17 uniform?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When orders arrived for you to report for work duty, what happened
20 to this weapon and uniform?
21 A. Since there were relatively few weapons, the weapon remained
22 exactly in the position where I had left from, and I had to leave and
23 report at the KP Dom while the weapons remained at the position there.
24 Q. Who did you report to when you arrived at the KP Dom for your work
25 duty?
Page 6872
1 A. I reported to engineer Relja Goljanin, who is head of the
2 metalwork shop otherwise.
3 Q. Why did you report to Relja Goljanin precisely?
4 A. Well, Relja Goljanin had been my boss before the war anyway, and
5 the message that I got at the position was that I should report to him.
6 Q. When you reported to Relja Goljanin, did he tell you what your job
7 would be, what you were supposed to do?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What did he say to you? Can you remember?
10 A. Well, he said to me -- I mean, after I retired, all the people who
11 remained working at my working place were of Muslim ethnicity, and since
12 there were no Serbs available to do that job, and the job I had was rather
13 specific, he asked me to get the boiler room operational so that it could
14 start working, so that possibly the factory could work, and so that the
15 kitchen could work, and so that convicts and detainees could take baths.
16 Q. When you reported for work duty, what shape was the boiler room
17 in?
18 A. Well, the boiler room was quite damaged - the roof, the pump,
19 certain parts of all of this - so I needed a few days to put all of this
20 in order so that it could function at least to a certain extent, for the
21 time being, at any rate.
22 Q. Did somebody help you in overhauling this boiler room?
23 A. Well, yes. I had two or three convicts of Serb ethnicity who were
24 there before the war, and a colleague of mine also was assigned to work
25 duty, and he had retired a bit after me.
Page 6873
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the name of
2 this person.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Did you get that message, Mr. Vasic? We have lost a
4 name.
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
6 Q. Sir, could you please repeat your colleague's name, clearly, so
7 that the interpreters could understand?
8 A. Miladin Ikonic.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. After the overhaul was completed, did the boiler
10 room start working, at least provisionally, and for how long?
11 A. Well, as soon as these problems that I found there were sorted out
12 - and that took about two days - we, or rather I, lit the furnaces. And
13 the very lighting takes about a day or two. Then the boiler room started
14 working. In this particular case, the first thing it was used for was to
15 provide steam for the kitchen in order to have food cooked, and also to
16 provide hot water for baths to be taken by convicted and detained
17 persons.
18 Q. Can you tell us how long the boiler room worked?
19 A. Well, I can't remember exactly. Before I came here, I was
20 thinking about it. It was a long time ago, but I think it was about seven
21 or ten days. That's the way it seems to me. It worked for as long as
22 there was electricity, actually. And then when there was no more
23 electricity, then we stopped working.
24 Q. After the boiler room could no longer work because of the shortage
25 of electricity, did you remain there at that particular work obligation at
Page 6874
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Page 6875
1 the KP Dom? Did you remain working at the KP Dom?
2 A. Well, I remained perhaps for a day or two or perhaps three days
3 after there was no more electricity.
4 Q. The working place that you worked at, which segment of the KP Dom
5 did it belong to when you reported for work duty, for your work
6 obligation?
7 A. It belonged to the metalwork shop all along, and to the Drina
8 Economic Unit.
9 Q. You said that after the boiler room stopped working, you remained
10 there for another day or two. Where did you go after that?
11 A. After that, after that day or two or three days - I can't remember
12 exactly how long this lasted, I can't remember exactly how long, exactly
13 how many days - a list came from the military command that we should
14 report to the military command -- or, rather, that we should report at
15 Livade and go to the front.
16 Q. Were you issued any weapons again then, and were you mobilised
17 again then?
18 A. Yes. Yes, I was issued weapons and I was mobilised again.
19 Q. How long did you stay in this military unit?
20 A. I stayed in this military unit until the 1st of October, 1993.
21 1993, yes -- or rather -- 1993, yes, 1993.
22 Q. The 1st of October, 1993. What happened then?
23 A. Well, let me tell you. After I left, or rather, even before I
24 left and while I was working during those 15-odd days at the KP Dom, I
25 omitted to mention to you, I forgot to mention a colleague of mine who
Page 6876
1 worked at the metalwork shop who is a disabled person, and he is therefore
2 not a military conscript; that is Dusko Djurovic.
3 I used the time I spent working there to instruct him as to how
4 the boiler room functions, and since I left and his knowledge in this
5 particular line of work was very limited, very small because he could not
6 learn everything in those three or seven days, I heard that they had had
7 various problems, or rather, in wintertime 1992, 1993, because of the very
8 low temperatures, heaters broke down and pipes that were full of water
9 broke because of the frost, and there were major problems.
10 Q. Is this why you received orders to report back to work duty at the
11 KP Dom?
12 A. Yes, precisely, because I'm the best of all of those men. And I
13 was foreman of that plant anyway, and I was quite familiar with the
14 subject matter because I spent quite a bit of time working at that unit.
15 And in a way, perhaps, I must have been the most meritorious person in
16 terms of repairing the damage that had been incurred during the winter
17 period.
18 Q. Did you return your military equipment, then, the one that had
19 been issued to you, before you went to the KP Dom?
20 A. Yes, uniform and equipment.
21 Q. Who did you report to, then, after getting to the KP Dom?
22 A. I reported to Relja Goljanin in that time too, and I remained
23 there for my work obligation.
24 Q. You mentioned that when you first came from your unit, when you
25 were first demobilised, on the 29th of April, 1992, that the place you
Page 6877
1 worked at belonged to the Drina Economic Unit. Do you know who then
2 headed the Drina Economic Unit?
3 A. Could you please tell me -- are you asking me about which period?
4 Q. When you first came to the KP Dom, when you were first
5 demobilised, you said that you reported to Relja Goljanin. Who headed the
6 Drina Economic Unit at that time, do you know?
7 A. At that time, the economic unit, the Drina Economic Unit was
8 headed by Mico Krnojelac.
9 Q. How come you know that the Drina Economic Unit was then headed by
10 Mico Krnojelac?
11 A. Well, Relja, engineer Relja Goljanin, said to me that he agreed
12 with the director of the Drina Economic Unit, Mico Krnojelac, that I
13 should come to work there, or rather, that I should come for work duty.
14 Q. When you came back to the KP Dom the second time, after being
15 demobilised in October 1993, who was director of the Drina Economic Unit
16 then, do you know?
17 A. In October 1993, it was Radojica Tesovic.
18 Q. Did you see Milorad Krnojelac at the KP Dom then?
19 A. No.
20 Q. During your first stay at the KP Dom, your first period, did you
21 ever have any contact with Muslim military detainees?
22 A. No. I didn't.
23 Q. And did you have any contact with them during your second period
24 at the KP Dom, which started in October 1993?
25 A. The second time I came to the KP Dom, I spent all my time with
Page 6878
1 Muslims, with the Muslims who worked in that period in the metalwork
2 shop.
3 Q. How long did it take to remove the damage in the heating system,
4 in the boiler room, when you came to the KP Dom?
5 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I cannot say precisely how long, but
6 it took certainly two months and maybe more.
7 Q. Did anyone help you do that work at that time, restarting the
8 boiler room and the entire heating system?
9 A. Well, yes. For the entire duration of our work on repairing the
10 damage on the boiler room, it was mostly Muslims, certain craftsmen -
11 welders, tinsmiths, locksmiths and others - who did the work. There were
12 some Serbs as well, but it was mostly Muslims.
13 Q. Do you know Mr. Muhamed Lisica?
14 A. Had you asked me this before I came here to the Tribunal, I would
15 have told you, no, I didn't know such a man, and I will later explain why.
16 But yes, I do know Muhamed Lisica.
17 Q. Would you explain, please, what you just started saying.
18 A. Well, about a month ago, or maybe a little more than that, my
19 family and friends from Belgrade started calling me on the phone, and they
20 said that they had watched a report from the Tribunal and that one of
21 those Muslims mentioned me in that context, saying something like -- that
22 Mico Krnojelac carried out orders of the military command at the KP Dom.
23 In the first moments, I just couldn't believe that my name had been
24 mentioned in whatever context linked to the KP Dom, and particularly in
25 relation to Mr. Mico Krnojelac.
Page 6879
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Page 6880
1 I waited to see the report on the work of the Tribunal which is
2 broadcast on Bosnian television on Tuesdays around five, and I watched
3 precisely as Muhamed Lisica was testifying in the part where he mentioned
4 me. The picture was not very good, and I didn't really recognise him.
5 And then ten or so days passed after the broadcast, and when people from
6 Foca started stopping me on the street and asking me about his testimony,
7 referring to him by his nickname Lija, and it was only then that I knew
8 who they were talking about.
9 Q. Have you ever discussed Mr. Milorad Krnojelac's position and
10 function at the KP Dom, while he was at the KP Dom, with Muhamed Lisica?
11 A. As far as Muhamed Lisica, nicknamed Lija, is concerned, I never
12 saw him before the 1st of October, 1993, at the KP Dom.
13 Q. After the 1st of October, 1993, did you discuss Krnojelac's
14 function and position at the KP Dom with Muhamed Lisica?
15 A. Regarding Mico Krnojelac, I couldn't have discussed it with
16 Lisica, or anyone else, because Lisica did not work with me in my unit in
17 that entire period. And I couldn't have discussed it at any time with any
18 of the detainees, and I couldn't have discussed anyone else at the KP Dom
19 with the detainees or express my opinions.
20 Q. Did you tell Mr. Muhamed Lisica that Mico Krnojelac was receiving
21 and carrying out orders from the military command?
22 A. No. I didn't tell him that, and the only reason is that, after
23 his testimony, I thought it was my duty as a human being and a citizen to
24 deny what he said. And at my own initiative, I later found Mico
25 Krnojelac's son and explained to him the problem with this statement of
Page 6881
1 Lisica's, and I asked him to put me into contact with the lawyers so that
2 I -- so as to enable me to deny this statement.
3 Q. Did you talk to Muhamed Lisica about why Mr. Sevko Kubat was not
4 released from the KP Dom?
5 A. Sir, I was a worker at the KP Dom. I had a particular job to do,
6 and that did not include asking questions about any of the Muslim
7 detainees, and I never did that. I never asked about Sevko Kubat, nor did
8 I express any views on Milorad Krnojelac.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. Could you please tell me, this boiler room, after
10 it was repaired, did it operate continuously after your arrival there in
11 1993?
12 A. After it was repaired, it did not work continuously. We
13 encountered various problems, starting with purchases of coal, which was
14 very expensive. We only operated in those periods when the Drina Economic
15 Unit was able to provide the raw materials and to ensure production. And
16 when they wanted the press to work, we would light up the boilers, work
17 for about a week, and after the press, which served to glue something at
18 the furniture factory, we would stop the operation of the boiler room and
19 start preparing for the next stage. We would in fact wait for the next
20 stage. And that was the varnishing of the materials that had been
21 pressed.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell me, how long did you stay on this
23 job at the KP Dom?
24 A. I stayed there until the signing of the Dayton Accords, but a
25 couple of months, maybe three or four months, before the signing of the
Page 6882
1 Dayton Accords, four new men were employed who had passed the examination
2 required to work with vessels under high pressure, and my job was to train
3 them on the job, to give them some skills to operate this plant so that
4 they would be able to continue working there.
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
6 Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions of this
7 witness, thank you.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Ms. Kuo?
9 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo:
10 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Pavlovic.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. You've testified that you -- at the beginning of the war, or
14 during April, you were mobilised and issued weapons and a military
15 uniform, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And shortly after that, you were given your work obligation to go
18 to the KP Dom instead, right?
19 A. What did you mean; instead of what? I didn't hear the end of the
20 question.
21 Q. Let me ask it to you this way: When you were mobilised, what date
22 was that?
23 A. I don't really remember the date. That was before -- if I was
24 mobilised on the 9th of April, and the war broke out on the 7th, that
25 means that I was mobilised when I came home.
Page 6883
1 Q. When you were issued the weapon and the military uniform, you did
2 not go immediately to the KP Dom. You were not told to go immediately to
3 the KP Dom, right?
4 A. No. When I got the uniform and the weapon, I went to the mountain
5 lodge above my house. At that time, that was where the front line was.
6 And I spent there the days before going to the KP Dom. As the front line
7 spread, we moved -- we shifted position.
8 Q. So you were actually at the front line for a number of days, and
9 even weeks, before you were sent to the KP Dom, right?
10 A. I was there until the 29th of April.
11 Q. Just to clarify, you mean you were at the front line until the
12 29th of April?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You went to the KP Dom specifically to fix the boiler, is that
15 right, because of your skills?
16 A. Yes. Not that's the boiler. In fact, that's a vessel under very
17 high pressure.
18 Q. But in layman's terms, it's the boiler?
19 A. If you think that a huge vessel under ten atmospheres pressure is
20 a boiler, then let it be a boiler.
21 Q. You were authorised -- in fact, you were sent to the KP Dom to
22 work on this by the military, right?
23 A. No. It was upon the summons of my former boss, that is the
24 manager of the Drina Economic Unit.
25 Q. Who was that?
Page 6884
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Page 6885
1 A. Could you repeat what you said?
2 Q. What was the name of the person who summonsed you?
3 A. Relja Goljanin.
4 Q. During the two weeks that you were at the KP Dom, obviously you
5 were not at the front line.
6 A. No, I wasn't on the front line.
7 Q. So somebody needed to get permission from the military unit that
8 you belonged to, to let you be at the KP Dom for two weeks to fix this
9 boiler, right?
10 A. There was probably some kind of request regarding me. I was
11 simply asked when I was in my unit and told that I had to go and report to
12 that man, Relja Goljanin.
13 Q. When you reported to the KP Dom and during those two weeks when
14 you were there, did you have any dealings at all with Mr. Krnojelac?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And you told us that you worked with a colleague, Mr. Ikonic, and
17 also two or three Serb convicts. Who supervised those convicts?
18 A. Even before the war, the people who worked in my unit were the
19 people who were allowed to go outside the perimeter, because the boiler
20 room is outside the walls of the KP Dom, and we supervised -- in fact, we
21 selected the people who were allowed to go outside the KP Dom.
22 Q. And during the two weeks when you were there during wartime, were
23 you able to select those people who worked with you, the convicts?
24 A. No. As far as selection is concerned, it was quite clear what my
25 job was, and it was quite clear whose job it was to select people. It was
Page 6886
1 not mine.
2 Q. Whose job was it to select those convicts to work with you?
3 A. In this case, Relja Goljanin would bring me a list of people who
4 were at my disposal to do the work.
5 Q. So in other words, during the whole time that you were working on
6 fixing the boiler, you never had to go through Mr. Krnojelac to have
7 anything done, right? Everything went through Mr. Goljanin.
8 A. Yes. All this went through Relja Goljanin and the guard who
9 worked at the gate of the metalwork shop. In that part of the metalwork
10 shop, before the war and during the war, we always had a guard.
11 Q. You stayed at the KP Dom, fixing the boiler, for two weeks, which
12 means until the middle of May, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. During that time, you never noticed any increased military
15 presence, did you, or the sudden appearance of the military?
16 A. In the period when I worked there -- and I have to say that the
17 boiler room was removed from the metalwork shop about 50 metres or more,
18 and one of the particular features of my work was that I spent my time
19 there working with vessels under high pressure which need constant
20 supervising because it's very dangerous. And I see from what you're
21 saying that you don't quite understand this sort of work. It's very
22 dangerous to handle vessels under high pressure because there is a danger
23 of explosion with terrifying consequences. And I never left my workplace,
24 and I didn't see anyone except when I went for breakfast. That was the
25 only time I left my workplace.
Page 6887
1 Q. Your workplace is actually part of the KP Dom, right?
2 A. Well, if you look at the KP Dom and the Drina Economic Unit as a
3 whole, then, yes.
4 Q. And during those two weeks, you went to the KP Dom every day,
5 right?
6 A. Yes. Those two weeks I was present all the time. I didn't go
7 home at all. I had to be there day and night while those high-pressure
8 vessels were in operation.
9 Q. You said day and night. Did you actually sleep at the KP Dom?
10 A. For a while, precisely in the period you are referring to, I spent
11 the nights at the metalwork shop. There were two or three beds there. If
12 you could say I slept at all.
13 Q. I would like to have you shown Exhibit P6, and you can indicate to
14 us where the boiler room is on this diagram.
15 A. Like this?
16 Q. Sir, you'll need to point to the ELMO, the piece of paper, rather
17 than the computer screen. If it would help you to have the diagram placed
18 directly in front of yourself first, you can orient yourself and then
19 indicate it to us.
20 A. Well, as far as I can tell -- well, this is it. This would be the
21 boiler room.
22 Q. Let's have that placed on the ELMO and you can show it to us.
23 A. [Indicates].
24 MS. KUO: The witness has indicated a separate building, that is
25 to -- directly above the metal shop on the diagram. In Exhibit P6A, which
Page 6888
1 has English translations, it indicates that as the boiler room facility.
2 Q. Thank you. Could you show us where you were spending the nights?
3 You said that there were two or three beds.
4 A. I don't know where. Well, I mean, I can't see there on that
5 sketch where the office of the metalwork shop is. It's probably here in
6 this long thing, in part of this long thing, this long room -- or rather,
7 in the left corner after the entrance.
8 MS. KUO: The witness pointed to the metalwork shop building,
9 which is directly below the boiler room facility, and it's the upper
10 building rather than the lower building on the diagram.
11 Q. And sir, you said you stayed there day and night, so certainly you
12 ate your meals in the canteen with the rest of the staff?
13 A. Well, in the period when the boilers were operating, I slept
14 there, and I also took my meals at the KP Dom throughout that period.
15 MS. KUO: Thank you. We don't need the diagram any more.
16 Q. Sir, when you arrived at the KP Dom, did you notice a military
17 presence; soldiers, people in uniform?
18 A. Well, I didn't notice. The facility that I work in doesn't have
19 any windows. These are concrete walls. It's simply a closed facility.
20 And it is apart from the KP Dom itself. I didn't notice.
21 Q. When you went to the canteen to eat, did you notice military
22 personnel present?
23 A. Well, in that period, when I went to have breakfast, I didn't see
24 -- the usual guards were there and I really didn't see anyone else.
25 Q. And when you were in the metal shop area, the place where you
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Page 6890
1 indicated you slept, you didn't notice any soldiers there either, in early
2 May?
3 A. No, never.
4 Q. Sir, you never heard the name Savo Todovic mentioned in connection
5 with being part of the military command at the KP Dom, right?
6 A. Well, let me tell you -- well, I can't say to you -- I don't know
7 whether Savo Todovic was within the military command. I just know -- I
8 mean, now I'm talking about the period when I came there the second time
9 for my work obligation. Some of these papers that had to do with the
10 detainees, or rather, people who worked with me, had the signature of Savo
11 Todovic on these papers. What he did, that was not my job. I was not
12 interested in that.
13 Q. During the first period when you worked at the metalwork shop, you
14 never heard Savo Todovic's name mentioned, right?
15 A. I didn't. Later, I heard more from the Muslims themselves. To
16 tell you the truth, as for the working practice in the KP Dom, it meant
17 that we should talk as little as possible and that everyone should do his
18 own job, and we all know what our jobs were.
19 Q. When you worked with the Serb convicts during those two weeks at
20 the beginning, did they have papers authorising them to work with you?
21 A. Every convict, or rather, every person who went out through the
22 gate of the KP Dom, had to have a pass in order to pass through the gate,
23 and then that pass would remain at the gate with the person who had that
24 job.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could Ms. Kuo please speak
Page 6891
1 into the microphone.
2 MS. KUO: I apologise for not speaking into the microphone.
3 Q. You never saw whose name was on the pass, these passes, as
4 authorising those Serb convicts to work with you, right?
5 A. Whose name are you actually referring to? I didn't quite
6 understand what you were saying.
7 Q. You told us that during the second time you were at the KP Dom,
8 that the people who worked with you had papers, and some of the papers had
9 to do -- I'll just read back to you: Some of these papers that had to do
10 with the detainees or the people who worked with you had the signature of
11 Savo Todovic. So I'm asking you whether the Serb convicts during the
12 first time you were there had similar papers, and if so, whose name was on
13 that?
14 A. Well, the first time I worked, Savo Todovic did not do that job --
15 or rather, his name appeared only when Muslims were concerned. As for
16 signatures for Serb convicts before the war, I know that there was always
17 a man who would appoint them for work. I can't remember exactly now. I
18 think it was Dragisa Milic, but please take that with a grain of salt
19 because I'm not sure.
20 Q. You've told us that -- at the KP Dom, you were not supposed to
21 talk very much, and you were supposed to just do your job; is that right?
22 A. Exactly. Regardless of whether it was convicts before the war or
23 whether it was detainees, it was one of the rules of our code of conduct
24 not to talk to these persons, especially not to have any kind of very
25 private conversation.
Page 6892
1 Q. You worked with both Serb convicts and Muslim detainees, right?
2 A. In 1993, I worked with both.
3 Q. You didn't make any distinctions between them based on their
4 ethnicity, did you? You treated them the same.
5 A. Well, I think that the very fact that I worked there for a year --
6 I didn't really calculate this period very precisely - that is to say, all
7 the way up to Dayton. I worked with quite a few of these Muslims, and my
8 name is not mentioned in any context except in the statement of the
9 above-mentioned gentleman. I think that that shows that I did my job
10 honestly and properly.
11 Q. I don't think you really answered my question, sir. You treated
12 both Muslims and Serbs correctly; isn't that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When the convicts or the detainees were working with you in the
15 boiler room or in the metalwork shop, they weren't actually guarded.
16 There wasn't really a guard standing with them the whole time when you
17 were interacting with them, right?
18 A. Well, Serb convicts always worked with me, as far as work in the
19 boiler room is concerned. As for the work carried out by Muslim
20 detainees, they worked only in that period when the boiler room was not
21 operating, that is to say, when we were carrying out repairs in this
22 respect, and then there was always one of the guards there. When they
23 would get a list as to who would be working with me, then there would
24 always be a guard there.
25 Q. Muhamed Lisica was one of the Muslim detainees who helped fixed
Page 6893
1 the boiler room, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You worked with him quite often?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And certainly during those -- the times that you were working, you
6 didn't -- you had to talk to each other, you had to communicate in order
7 to work together, right?
8 A. Well, I didn't have to communicate. It was my job to give orders
9 and to supervise what he did and to show him how he should do it. And it
10 was his job to do the actual work. It wasn't that there was some
11 discipline involved or this rigid kind of relationship, but even if there
12 was any conversation, we would always let the other side, regardless of
13 whether it was this convict or that convict, to do the talking, or
14 detainee or whatever.
15 Q. You never had any problems with Mr. Lisica, did you?
16 A. No, no. Lisica was a very good worker. I can only say the very
17 best about him as a worker. And that is why I was really surprised by
18 this statement of his. I had to come here to refute it.
19 Q. You understood that the statement that was attributed to you was
20 something that was harmful to Milorad Krnojelac, right? If it were true,
21 what Muhamed Lisica said you said, that would have hurt Milorad
22 Krnojelac's Defence, right?
23 A. I'm not interested in whether it would hurt Milorad or not. I'm
24 only interested in whether I said this or not. Since I did not say
25 this -- my purpose is not to help Milorad Krnojelac, nor can I help him,
Page 6894
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Page 6895
1 but I can refute that which is not true, and I stand by that.
2 Q. When people approached you about the statement, it was not -- it
3 was in a context where you felt like you were put in a bad situation for
4 having said something against a fellow Serb in Foca, right?
5 A. Well, let me tell you. My name being mentioned in the context of
6 something that I did not say -- I was not interested at all in whether
7 this was Milorad or any other person. Had I said this, I would not have
8 appeared here at all.
9 Q. Mr. Pavlovic, you mentioned earlier a Dragisa Milic as being the
10 person who might have authorised the Serb convicts to work with you. This
11 is somebody who worked at the farm, and he was a psychologist, right?
12 A. Dragisa Milic was a psychologist, but really, although I really
13 want to, I cannot remember who did this work. Maybe Savo did it, too, but
14 I really don't know.
15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, while there is a pause
16 between the questions, about the interpretation, it is row, line -- page
17 59, line 6. The witness said, "Maybe Savo did this, but I doubt it," and
18 that's not what the transcript says.
19 JUDGE HUNT: I think, Ms. Kuo, the easiest thing to ask him is to
20 give the answer again.
21 MS. KUO: Yes, I need to get this clarified, in any event.
22 Q. Sir, you told us that Mr. Milic was possibly the person who signed
23 the papers on behalf of the Serb convicts. Was that before the war or
24 during the war, in the two weeks that you yourself worked with the Serb
25 convicts?
Page 6896
1 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I did not think about these things
2 before. Now, why did I relate Dragisa Milic to this list? Because
3 Dragisa Milic, before the war, while I had the job I had before I retired,
4 I would always go to Dragisa Milic to get certain convicts, or rather a
5 list of convicts who would be working with me. Now, at the outset, when I
6 mentioned Dragisa, I said that I was not sure. If this has to be
7 clarified, I would rather say that I do not know who did this job, not to
8 engage in guess work now, to mention one or the other. I think it would
9 be fairer to put it this way because I really don't know.
10 Q. So you don't know what role Savo Todovic was playing during this
11 time either, right, whether he signed papers for certain people or not?
12 I'm just talking about the two weeks.
13 A. These two weeks that you're talking about, at that time, Muslims,
14 detainees, did not work at all, either at the metalwork shop or anywhere
15 else, as far as I know.
16 Q. Sir, I'm asking you about Savo Todovic and what role he played
17 during those two weeks. You don't know what role he was playing at that
18 time, right?
19 A. I don't know. I don't know.
20 Q. You told us that you were at the KP Dom the second time until
21 shortly before the Dayton Accords. Isn't it true that you had already
22 left the KP Dom by the 31st of October 1994? That was the last day you
23 were there.
24 A. 1994? Dayton? No. From the end of 1993 until the signing of
25 Dayton, it seems to me that it was the spring, May or June, 1995.
Page 6897
1 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have this
2 witness shown Exhibit P3.
3 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to item number 62. At 62, that
4 is your name, right, and your birth date?
5 A. No. My date is the 10th of February 1953, and that is my name and
6 surname.
7 Q. The 29th of April 1992 as the beginning of your work obligation is
8 the correct date, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And it says here also that the 31st of October 1994 is when your
11 work obligation ended. Is that accurate?
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?
13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic?
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The witness already answered this
15 question earlier. However, I think it would be fair if --
16 JUDGE HUNT: Wait a minute, please. You're not here to help the
17 witness at this stage. You have the right to re-examine later. The
18 cross-examiner is not bound by any answer he gave earlier, and is entitled
19 to ask the same question again. If you want to clear something up about
20 that, you may do so in re-examination. Just let the cross-examination
21 have -- cross-examiner have her head.
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. I agree
23 with you. However, I wanted to say that this exhibit has a time limit,
24 and that was not stated to the witness, and I don't think it is fair to
25 speak to him about the date when he was in the KP Dom, and this exhibit,
Page 6898
1 as it says in the very heading, refers to a limited period of time. It
2 says here that this is a list of personnel in the period from April 1992
3 until October 1994, not after October 1994, so that we could ascertain
4 whether somebody was there after this date or not.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if that is so, Ms. Kuo, it doesn't take us very
6 far.
7 MS. KUO: That's fine, Your Honour. I was confused about the
8 dates and so I wanted him to clarify it. If in fact it is 1995 and this
9 document ends in 1994, then, of course, the 1995 date stands.
10 JUDGE HUNT: I am not quite sure where we are headed with all of
11 this cross-examination.
12 MS. KUO: I wanted to establish when exactly he was present at the
13 KP Dom, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE HUNT: I know, but we have got a certain cut-off date as to
15 relevance in this case. That's when Mr. Krnojelac finished in his
16 position of warden, whatever that position meant.
17 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. I'll continue, then.
18 Q. Mr. Pavlovic, you were present at the KP Dom -- were you present
19 in KP Dom in July of 1993? We are done with this exhibit. Thank you.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you later learn that Ekrem Zekovic had escaped from the
22 metalwork shop in July of 1993?
23 A. When I came -- I told you about this. As I worked with Muslims,
24 detainees, they talked to me themselves, Lisica and other men, and they
25 said that Zekovic had escaped. He had escaped a few months before that.
Page 6899
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Page 6900
1 Later on, as I worked there, I never saw Zekovic, and I don't know
2 anything about this.
3 Q. Did you also learn from the Muslim detainees that the Muslim
4 detainees who worked at the metalwork shop were also punished as a result
5 of Ekrem Zekovic's escape? Did they tell you that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Mr. Pavlovic, during the time, both the first time and the second
8 time you worked at the KP Dom, were you ever aware that a military command
9 was in charge of any part of the KP Dom?
10 A. To tell you the truth - I repeat it once again - I was not
11 interested at all in what the military was doing, what certain people were
12 doing. I came there to do my part of the job. I stuck to that. I had
13 already got to a certain age. I was simply doing my own job, I wasn't
14 interested in anything else.
15 Q. Sir, when you told us that you were sent to the front line at the
16 very beginning of the war, that was the mountain lodge Dub, right near
17 Foca, right?
18 A. I spent quite some time, practically all my life, underneath that
19 mountain lodge. We, the citizens, know that it's the mountain lodge. I
20 don't know whether Dub is the name. And I was then at that position where
21 the mountain lodge is, but whether it's actually called Dub, that I really
22 don't know.
23 Q. But it's right near Foca or right in Foca itself, right?
24 A. No. That's above Cerezluk, above my house, above my parents'
25 house where my parents lived. Perhaps about two kilometres above it, a
Page 6901
1 kilometre and a half, that is to say, on the other side of the hill -- or
2 rather, Foca is in a valley, so this is right above my house.
3 Q. You talked about your parents being in Cerezluk. That was still
4 in Foca. That's just a neighbourhood, right?
5 A. I said that I came to my parents' house, and my parents and
6 children -- or rather, my sister's children were not at that house. They
7 were in the country, in a village called Mazoce, 16 kilometres away from
8 Foca. I was in this house, my wife, and my brother-in-law. In the house
9 of my parents, that is.
10 MS. KUO: Your Honours, it's 1.00.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We'll adjourn until 2.30.
12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
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Page 6902
1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Kuo?
3 MS. KUO: Your Honour the Prosecution has no further questions for
4 this witness.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination?
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Re-examined by Mr. Vasic:
8 Q. Mr. Pavlovic, my learned friend asked you about contacts between
9 you, the employees, with persons who were detained in the KP Dom. Could
10 you tell me, please, before the war, what were the rules regarding
11 contacts with persons who were serving their sentences there?
12 A. Well, before the war, the rule was - and after the war, too - that
13 persons employed at the KP Dom, or rather, in the Drina Economic Unit,
14 were supposed to avoid any conversation that had to do with personal life;
15 that only work could be discussed, that is.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that you left when there was no more
17 electricity. Can you tell me how much time is needed in order to start up
18 the boiler room if there is no electricity?
19 A. Two days are required to start up the boiler room, in order to
20 light the boilers, in order to -- in order to get the right heat, and in
21 order to get steam.
22 Q. Just one more question: My learned friend asked you whether,
23 within the KP Dom, when you were there for the first time, you saw any
24 soldiers there. I want to ask you whether you noticed any persons there
25 who were not originally from that area, that is to say, Foca and its
Page 6903
1 surroundings.
2 A. I did see these people during the first days, or rather, before I
3 came, there were some people who were not from our town. While I worked,
4 as I said, I hardly left my working place. I practically didn't go out at
5 all. I did not see them. However, I heard later from other people there
6 were some people like that too. But I don't know which period. I was at
7 the front line. So when this later period was, I really can't tell you.
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Pavlovic.
9 Your Honours, the Defence has no further redirect.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for coming here to give evidence and
11 for the evidence you've given. You are now free to leave.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If I may, with your leave, I would
17 like to address you to save time. I don't know whether this is a good
18 moment, but I would like to ask the witness about a name. We have already
19 prepared a piece of paper with that name on it. The usher is not here,
20 but I should like to ask him to put this piece of paper in front of the
21 witness on the witness stand, so I'll bring the paper to the
22 representative of the registry.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Bakrac. Well, that
24 pseudonym sheet which relates to Mr. Arso Krnojelac will be Exhibit D154,
25 and it will be under seal.
Page 6904
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Page 6905
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you please make the solemn declaration in
3 the document that the usher is showing you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: ARSENIJE KRNOJELAC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.
9 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Examined by Mr. Bakrac:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Now I have to say something that we say to every
13 witness. Sir, can you hear me?
14 A. I hear you.
15 Q. Sir, I would like to ask you, since we speak the same language and
16 it all needs to be interpreted so that the other participants in the
17 proceedings can understand us, I would like to ask you to make a brief
18 pause before answering. If it's easier for you, please watch the screen
19 in front of you. You will notice that a transcript is being typed out,
20 and when you see the typing has finished, you can start answering. In
21 other words, don't answer immediately after I ask my question; make a
22 brief pause.
23 Can we start? Have you understood me?
24 A. Yes, we can.
25 Q. Sir, will you please tell me your name and surname.
Page 6906
1 A. Arsenije Krnojelac.
2 Q. When and where were you born?
3 A. On the 11th of August, 1935, in the village of Birotici.
4 Q. You say in the village of Birotici. Is it a village or a hamlet?
5 A. It's a hamlet near Bunovi.
6 Q. Please wait after I ask my question. Tell me, did you do your
7 military service; where?
8 A. Yes, I did in 1957, 1958, in Skopje.
9 Q. While you served in the army, did you acquire any skill?
10 A. I was recruited...
11 Q. Yes, please go on.
12 A. ... into the auto mechanic unit.
13 Q. Did you undergo any training to become a driver, and what kind of
14 training, what category?
15 A. I got categories A and C in the military class.
16 Q. Do these categories allow you to drive sedan cars and freight
17 vehicles?
18 A. These categories, when written into a driver's licence, comprised
19 permission to drive luxury sedans and freight vehicles.
20 Q. What other schooling do you have?
21 A. At that time, I had completed four years of elementary schooling.
22 Q. After having done your military service, did you go back to school
23 and did you pass any other examinations?
24 A. When I came back from school, I took the civilian's test, the
25 civilian's driving test, in order to be able to work as a driver, a
Page 6907
1 professional driver, and first I took the test for the C category and
2 professional examination for a skilled driver.
3 Q. You said, "When I came back from school." Did you mean the army?
4 A. Will you please repeat that question? I didn't understand you.
5 Q. "When I came back from school, when I got out of school," did you
6 mean to say the army or did you really mean school? You said that about
7 taking this state examination.
8 A. No. I had to take this state examination in order to become a
9 professional, skilled driver in the civilian class.
10 Q. In which year did you take this exam to become a civilian driver?
11 A. As far as I recall, it was 1963.
12 Q. When and where did you get your first job?
13 A. I got employed for the first time in May 1955, with the timber
14 processing company called Maglic. The full name is Forestry and
15 Industrial Enterprise of Maglic. And there I found a job as a skilled
16 worker.
17 Q. Until when did you work at Maglic?
18 A. I worked in Maglic until 1957 or 1958, when I went to the army to
19 do my military service.
20 Q. Having done your military service, did you go back to continue
21 working at Maglic or did you find another job?
22 A. I came back to the farm where I worked with my parents, because we
23 lived in poverty. It was a mountainous, rural area where we lived, and I
24 had no choice but to look for a job. And I went looking for a job in that
25 same company, the Forestry and Industrial Enterprise of Maglic. In that
Page 6908
1 company, if my memory serves me well, I spent some time. There was a
2 military post box -- post office box enterprise in Foca, which employed
3 people, and was looking for manpower to pave roads.
4 Q. Just a moment, sir. We don't need all the details about the line
5 of work of that company. Just tell me where you found your next job.
6 A. In the military post box as a driver. That was after I passed the
7 civilian's driver's test for the C category, that is for freight
8 vehicles.
9 Q. Can you tell me where did you work next?
10 A. After that, I started building a house in Foca. After I spent a
11 year working for that military post box, I was forced, since we spent a
12 lot of time on the road, to transfer to the fire brigade company as a
13 driver again in Foca, based in Foca.
14 Q. Tell me, sir, did you work as a driver at the KP Dom, and if so,
15 when did you start?
16 A. I worked at the KP Dom from 1977, I cannot remember the date, but
17 it was late April, early May. Again, I worked as the driver of a freight
18 vehicle called Furgon, that is, a delivery truck for furniture, for
19 transporting furniture.
20 Q. And tell me, until what year did you work at the KP Dom in Foca as
21 a driver?
22 A. I can't remember the date, but that's the position from which I
23 retired. It should be 1964 -- I'm sorry, 1994.
24 Q. If I understood you correctly, you worked continuously at the KP
25 Dom in Foca from 1977 to 1994?
Page 6909
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Page 6910
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And all this time you worked as a driver of that Furgon?
3 A. Yes, that's true. All that time I worked as a driver,
4 transporting furniture.
5 Q. When the war in Foca began, where were you on that 8th of April,
6 1992?
7 A. You want me to be precise? I was about to retire, and there was
8 even a decision approving my retirement, but it wasn't signed yet. I
9 thought it would be signed in time. And I had about ten days of vacation
10 left over from the previous year and some days of vacation due to me for
11 the current year, so I took that vacation and spent it in the village
12 where I was born.
13 If you want to know why, it's because I was always more interested
14 and keener on farming, and I had inherited a small house from my father,
15 and I was preparing for the sowing season, the usual crops, potatoes and
16 so on and so forth, and that's where I was in those first days of war.
17 Q. You say in the village where you were born where you renovated
18 your old father's house. Is that the hamlet of Birotici?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Did you come back from that village to Foca, and if so, when?
21 A. I must say that I wasn't counting days or looking at the calendar.
22 I found out the next day that it was the 8th of April. One of my
23 neighbours and relatives who came out of Foca -- who got out of Foca told
24 me that war had broken out in town. I was pretty much taken aback by
25 that. I hadn't thought it would come to that. He said there was a lot of
Page 6911
1 shooting. When this man got out of town, it was already the 9th.
2 We were talking about all of that - I won't go into detail - and
3 the next morning I set out in the company of my neighbour. We did not
4 take the real road, the usual road which our parents used. At that time,
5 it was a little better, but we took the forest paths, rather, because
6 people had told us on the way - Serbs did - that the Muslims were
7 controlling one of the villages on the way, that is, Zubovici.
8 Q. We don't really have to go into all this detail. I don't want to
9 interrupt you, but we don't need to know all the details of your travel
10 from your hamlet to Foca. Just be so kind as to tell me, did you have a
11 house or an apartment in Foca?
12 A. In Foca? I had a house in Foca.
13 Q. Did you have a house on your own or did you share it with
14 someone?
15 Please just wait for the interpretation to finish. I do apologise
16 for interrupting you once again but you started answering the question
17 before I even put it. Go ahead now.
18 A. I had a house in a neighbourhood called Cerezluk. I shared it
19 with my older brother. We shared it. It was partitioned vertically. It
20 was built in the 1960s.
21 Q. You mentioned Cerezluk. Is that a part of Foca? Where is it?
22 Can you tell us?
23 A. That's a part of Foca. It's newly-built. It is on a little hill,
24 and from it you can see practically all of Foca, facing the church that
25 existed there.
Page 6912
1 Q. When you arrived home, who did you find there?
2 A. In the house, inside, I did not find anyone, neither in my
3 neighbour's house or in my house. In the basement, I found my brother, my
4 sister-in-law, the children, a baby that was only two or three days old.
5 The baby was my older brother's.
6 Q. How long did you stay at your house in Foca, or rather, at
7 Cerezluk?
8 A. I stayed three to four days. I was there with my other
9 relatives.
10 Q. From the moment when you returned from the countryside, did
11 Milorad Krnojelac come to your house? Did he come to that same house?
12 A. Milorad? I rushed again. Milorad Krnojelac, as far as I can
13 remember, on the next day, in the evening, it was around dusk. I don't
14 have to say exactly whether it was the same day or the next day, for
15 several reasons. At dusk, he came to Cerezluk with his family so that we
16 could all stay alive. That's what we believed.
17 Q. When Milorad came with his family, did he take something from his
18 house?
19 A. No. Most probably, in view of the fact that Milorad Krnojelac was
20 not an extremist of any kind, he was not in the party that was in the
21 making. He waited for the last moments. When gunfire started from who
22 knows where, he tried to get out and to reach us at Cerezluk.
23 Q. From the window or from the terrace of your house, can you see
24 Donje Polje and can you see the house of Milorad Krnojelac?
25 A. From my house, there are few places in Foca that cannot be seen.
Page 6913
1 All of Donje Polje, as it's known, and the centre of town, even a bit of
2 the hospital, too.
3 Q. Were you watching to see what was going on with that area, Donje
4 Polje, and what was going on with Milorad Krnojelac's house?
5 A. It didn't even cross my mind to watch only the house of Milorad
6 Krnojelac. I went out to the terrace to watch in order to see what was
7 going on. It was dusk, but I wanted to see what was going on in Donje
8 Polje. I saw that part of Serb houses on fire. I did not notice
9 immediately that there was a big fire at Milorad Krnojelac's and Ilija
10 Radovic's. As far as I can remember, Grujicic Velisa too. That was one
11 place. I returned. Since I'm a huntsman, I had binoculars. I took the
12 binoculars and I saw that Milorad Krnojelac's house was burning.
13 Q. May I interrupt you, please? Just tell me -- you mentioned that
14 it was dusk. Was it the same day, the same evening, when Milorad
15 Krnojelac came to your house or was it some other evening?
16 A. As far as I can remember, it was the evening of the next day, as
17 far as I can remember.
18 Q. I do apologise, but you said you're a huntsman, that you took your
19 binoculars. What happened then?
20 A. I looked. I could not tell from which side the fire was coming.
21 It was very hard. I could not even tell him directly that the house was
22 on fire. His wife was downstairs and so was he, on the ground floor. I
23 went downstairs and I said, "It seems to me that the house is on fire.
24 Why don't you go to the terrace to take a look."
25 He rushed out and also my brother-in-law Ilija did too. They took
Page 6914
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Page 6915
1 the binoculars, and they realised that their houses were already well on
2 fire. There was quite a bit of panic then, and there were tears. Had
3 they known, they probably would have taken some clothes along, at least,
4 but they were there without a thing.
5 Q. Did your brother Milorad say something then? Did he make any
6 comments?
7 A. It's hard for me to say this. I cried. He was strong. I
8 remember that well. When he said, "May this be the last fire, the one on
9 my house. May no one's house in Foca be on fire after this," I looked at
10 him. He probably thought that he would build another one.
11 Q. Did you see any other Serb houses on fire?
12 A. Yes, I did. I can't remember, five or six of them above. I know
13 the names of two of these men: Milisav, the dentist; Momir, the
14 blacksmith; Bozo Drakul. Another mailman, I don't remember his name, was
15 it Vaso or something. I can't remember his last name now.
16 Q. If you can't remember, it doesn't matter.
17 A. I can't remember.
18 Q. I'd just like to clarify something, because in the transcript it
19 says Momir, and then it says the blacksmith in the sense of that being his
20 profession. But did he actually have that last name?
21 A. Kovac, which also means blacksmith. Kovac was his last name, and
22 his real name, his first name, was Momcilo. Momcilo Kovac is his name.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that you stayed there for a few days.
24 Where did you go after that?
25 A. After a day or two after that, I went to where I had come from,
Page 6916
1 went to the village. My wife was over there, my grandchildren. I wanted
2 to inform them about all these misfortunes. Since they were wearing what
3 they had worn when they got out, Milorad took some clothes that belonged
4 to my sons, some that belonged to his sons, and some that belonged to my
5 brother, the brother with whom I had built the house together. At that
6 moment, his wife didn't have anybody to turn to for clothes. I sent my
7 own wife to find some clothing for Milorad Krnojelac's wife.
8 Q. So how long did you stay in the village?
9 A. I had already arrived in time for the sowing. Since I saw that we
10 wouldn't even have any potatoes to eat, and I was very good at this, both
11 my wife and I, since we were -- actually, she came from an even longer
12 line of farmers. She was very good at this. So I stayed there, and I was
13 engaged for village guard duty. There were few of us. I had to do that
14 too. Women were quite panic-stricken, but I had enough time to till the
15 land in addition to doing that.
16 Q. Did you take food to your family that had stayed behind in the
17 house at Cerezluk?
18 A. Yes, I did. May I say another thing? I had two cows. I had two
19 swines. From the previous year, I had had some kidney beans, potatoes,
20 and also some pickled vegetables, salads from the previous winter, so my
21 wife was very good at preparing this. And to tell you the truth, it would
22 weigh from ten to 15 kilos, and I had to carry that as I walked for about
23 two hours. And I shared that with my brothers, and it was welcome,
24 indeed.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, is there really any need for all of this
Page 6917
1 detail? What are we leading to? Is it relating to the fire still? Or to
2 the clothing that they were wearing? I'm scratching around, looking for
3 some point of relevance here.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that one of the
5 questions put by the Prosecutors to the witnesses is about food, that is
6 to say, food that was brought to people from their homes. And also in
7 view of what this witness will have to say later, I thought that by way of
8 an introduction, I thought this would be relevant. Of course, not in such
9 detail. I am indeed trying to shorten things, and I don't want the
10 testimony to be so detailed, but I'm trying not to interrupt the witness.
11 But I'll try to do my best when I see that we are getting a great many
12 details that we don't really need.
13 JUDGE HUNT: I appreciate your efforts in attempting to curtail
14 the amount of detail, but we are not really worried about people bringing
15 food from their own holdings to members of their family. The issue of
16 food here is whether the prisoners or the detainees in the KP Dom were
17 given less food than was available to everybody else in the KP Dom. There
18 has been no dispute, as I understand it from the Prosecution or from
19 anybody's evidence, that there was a shortage of food in Foca generally.
20 The issue was whether the Muslim detainees got less than the fair share to
21 which they were entitled within the KP Dom. Now, this evidence doesn't
22 even touch that. And if the Prosecution have been asking questions
23 directed to this, they must have asked them very briefly because they
24 passed through my attention to the matter. So let's try and keep, if we
25 have to deal with food, to what the real issue is here.
Page 6918
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I
2 didn't want to deal with the question any more, anyway, and I wanted to
3 put my next question to the witness. I wanted to ask him whether he
4 reported to the KP Dom at all, since he had worked in the KP Dom before
5 the war. So if so, when did he report?
6 A. I did report at the KP Dom for work duty towards the end of May,
7 around that time. I can't remember the date.
8 Q. How come you reported for your work obligation? Were you a
9 military conscript?
10 A. I went down there, I was in contact with my friends, my
11 neighbours, et cetera. We had no electricity, and they said that military
12 conscripts were being asked to report, and I was not supposed to report to
13 the military, and since I -- since -- actually, my director -- not my
14 director but the director for commercial affairs, Micun Jokanovic, was
15 working at the KP Dom, and he said that they needed a driver and that I
16 should report for my work obligation because they needed a driver
17 urgently, although there was one driver there, but he could not manage to
18 do everything because there was more and more work. I -- actually, when I
19 arrived there --
20 Q. Just a second, please. Tell me, sir, were you engaged by the
21 military? Were you mobilised by the military maybe?
22 A. No, no. When I left from the village, I went back to Micun
23 Jokanovic's. I went back to the village to say I would be reporting for
24 the work obligation, and I met my commander, who was in charge of the
25 village guards. I said to him that I would be going for my work
Page 6919
1 obligation. He said to me that he had me registered there as some kind of
2 a guard actually at the village, but that I should report to him when I
3 return. However, Micun Jokanovic --
4 Q. Just a second, sir. We've understood this. Tell me, who did you
5 report to at the KP Dom?
6 A. Micun Jokanovic. And Micun Jokanovic told me that Milorad
7 Krnojelac was appointed director of the economy, temporary warden. At
8 that moment, I did not see Milorad Krnojelac. I don't know whether he was
9 there in town or not. The next day, I saw him when he told me that the
10 economy had to get going because the factory had been considerably
11 destroyed - the pipelines, the bakeries couldn't work, electricity, things
12 like that - that we had to set out to carry out a major task, and that is
13 to start up the economy again, the economy having been in a rather
14 critical state.
15 Q. Sir, you don't have to explain all of this to us. We heard about
16 it from previous witnesses. Tell me, please, did you specifically get
17 some assignment, and if so, from whom?
18 A. I got an assignment from Micun, that I was supposed to go on a
19 trip, to take some goods, our goods, because there was no system of
20 payments any longer. We had to be involved in barter in order to provide
21 food, both for humans and for cattle, wherever we could find anything.
22 Q. Did you ask Micun Jokanovic or anyone else specifically to do
23 something else when you were not driving?
24 A. No. Exceptionally I would drive the Furgon from time to time. I
25 asked Micun Jokanovic to spare me a little, and that I wanted to go back
Page 6920
1 to my village again. I didn't want them to drive me very hard because I
2 wanted to finish the work I had started in my village.
3 Q. You said you were driving the Furgon. What did you transport in
4 that vehicle, and where?
5 A. We had a very wide network of business partnerships and
6 cooperation in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, everywhere except
7 in Slovenia, so we had a certain amount of furniture of our own
8 manufacture and we drove it to various places to exchange it for the goods
9 that we needed, and we needed concentrates and food supplies for the
10 people.
11 Q. Did you take back any raw materials for starting production, the
12 furniture factory, or anything else?
13 A. I didn't understand you. Maybe you meant inputs for the furniture
14 production. Yes, yes, we did. We -- if we drove our couch, for instance,
15 to sell it or exchange it for something else, we would take back sponge or
16 something else.
17 Q. Just tell me -- I'm making a pause to check the interpretation.
18 When I'm making a pause, I don't expect you to go on talking, I'm just
19 waiting for the interpretation.
20 Can you just tell me, when the war had already begun and when you
21 reported for work duty, where did you travel?
22 A. To Serbia, to Niksic. That's where we travelled, in those places.
23 And also in Belgrade we found the goods that we were looking for.
24 Q. Did Milorad Krnojelac travel with you?
25 A. Milorad Krnojelac travelled once to see how this could be done and
Page 6921
1 to ask -- since he was a man with a good reputation, he knew how to do
2 these things. So we unloaded furniture, as far as I remember it was in
3 Kragujevac, and that's how we handled it. And then in another warehouse,
4 we took and loaded into our vehicle the food for the KP Dom.
5 Q. Did Milorad Krnojelac travel for the purpose of purchasing goods
6 only once, or did he travel more than once?
7 A. I remember he travelled twice with me to Niksic.
8 Q. If I understood you correctly, in addition to that trip to Serbia,
9 he travelled twice to Niksic?
10 A. Twice to Serbia.
11 THE INTERPRETER: "Twice to Niksic," interpreter's correction.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Do you know that Krnojelac's, Milorad Krnojelac's sons were
14 wounded?
15 A. I know about that well because my own son was wounded as well as
16 his sons.
17 Q. Can you remember when that happened?
18 A. That happened on the 22nd of June, 1992.
19 Q. Can you tell us what kind of injuries they suffered and where they
20 were treated?
21 A. They were admitted into the Foca hospital. We went there in the
22 evening. There were a lot of procedures: puncturing, amputation. One of
23 his sons suffered an injury to the head. I remember we were at the
24 hospital until 6 or 7.00, and then a doctor by the name of Supic told us
25 that they had to go to Belgrade without delay because they were in danger
Page 6922
1 of falling into a coma and dying, if I may put it that way.
2 Q. Allow me to ask you this: Were they actually transferred to
3 Belgrade and when?
4 A. They were transferred to Belgrade by helicopter, I think it was
5 the next day or the day after. I can't say exactly. I was in a state of
6 shock. We followed them and we arrived there on the 24th of July -- June,
7 June.
8 Q. You said you followed them and you arrived there on the 24th of
9 June. When you say "we," who do you mean?
10 A. We followed these young men who were transferred by helicopter,
11 our sons.
12 Q. I understood that much, but who went to Belgrade after them?
13 A. I went by car together with my wife and another of my sons
14 driving, while Milorad and his wife were taken by his son in a different
15 car; so we took two cars.
16 Q. Can you remember, how long did you stay in Belgrade?
17 A. Rather a long time. It seemed like a month to me, though it
18 couldn't have been a month, because I was waiting for the news from the
19 doctors at that hospital. At one point they would say he is in a state of
20 clinical death, and at another point the doctor said he was going to get
21 better. We had family there, though not many; we had more friends, and we
22 stayed with them.
23 But this was a state of painful expectation, and the amputation
24 was done in stages. Sometimes it seemed that they wouldn't have to cut
25 all the way, and at other times they thought the patient would die and
Page 6923
1 they cut some more. But it must have been 12 to 15 days. And when I came
2 back to my village where I had left my cows with a neighbour, I remember
3 him saying to me, "You stayed away for all of 15 days."
4 Q. Thank you, we understood that. We don't need any more details.
5 When you say you stayed that long, could you tell us, did Milorad
6 Krnojelac stay as long as you did?
7 A. Milorad Krnojelac and his wife stayed there, whereas his son, who
8 was employed at the Secretariat of Internal Affairs, came back. And he
9 had that job both before the war and during the war. Milorad and his wife
10 returned together with us.
11 Q. Do you know where Milorad and his wife stayed while they were in
12 Belgrade?
13 A. I do. My wife has this relative in Belgrade, Njegos Dzukovic, and
14 we also have a close friend, Leka Kalajdzic. And Milorad's wife would
15 stay with them, with those people personally, for as long as a month.
16 Q. Could you tell me briefly, where did Milorad and his wife stay?
17 You stated -- you gave us two names.
18 A. They spent more time at Leka Kalajdzic's than at Njegos
19 Dzukovic's.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. You said you were driving a Furgon, delivering
21 furniture?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you ever drive Muslim detainees who were kept at the KP Dom?
24 A. You mean in the Furgon?
25 Q. No, I mean wherever.
Page 6924
1 A. Not in the Furgon. When the farm was working a little, and when
2 we got hold of this concentrate to keep the farm going, I did. There was
3 a TAM vehicle carrying two tonnes, with benches in the back, covered by
4 canvas sheet, and they used to be driven to the farm. And to tell you the
5 truth, I think they worked in facilities with hens, pigs, cows. I didn't
6 really look what they were doing.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. We would also unload the feed that we brought back, et cetera.
9 Q. Do you own a house in Zavajt?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Does your brother Milorad own a house in Zavajt?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You must be aware that your brother Milorad was a teacher in
14 Zavajt for a while?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know where he lived while he was a teacher in Zavajt?
17 A. In the school. There were two schools there, an old one and a new
18 one. The old house was refurbished and turned into a building used for
19 accommodation, and it contained four separate flats. And the other school
20 was used for teaching.
21 Q. When Milorad finished with this job, did he return that apartment
22 to the school?
23 A. That apartment remained the property of the school, and another
24 teacher moved in. I don't suppose that Milorad could have taken it with
25 him, the apartment, I mean.
Page 6925
1 Q. While you were working at the KP Dom, did you ever drive to Zavajt
2 to a barrel maker, and do you know if there is a barrel maker in Zavajt?
3 A. There is no barrel maker in Zavajt. If you ask me --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the interpreter does not
5 really understand the word used by the witness.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, the interpreters are having trouble with
7 one of the words the witness is using.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. You said that there was no barrel maker, and you said, "If you ask
10 me whether there is" -- and then you used a word. Could you tell us what
11 that word was and what it means? I think you said "jelika." Can you tell
12 us what that means?
13 A. It's a coniferous tree. It's actually a fir tree used for
14 manufacturing, roofing and furniture and other things. That's what they
15 have in Zavajt, fir trees.
16 Q. I didn't quite understand you. Does -- is it the case that there
17 is -- that they have this type of tree in Zavajt or is there a workshop
18 processing that kind of timber?
19 A. No. I didn't mean a workshop. There is no workshop. They have
20 that kind of tree there.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May I ask the usher -- I don't
22 believe that the witness has this Exhibit D154 in front of him.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Are we going to be left up in the air about the
24 conifer trees? What on earth has this got to do with this case?
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't know.
Page 6926
1 That's what the witness said. I have never heard about any of this
2 before, and I cannot possibly know what was in his mind. I've tried to
3 clarify, but I just think that the witness said there was no barrel maker,
4 and using some kind of jargon, he said they had some particular type of
5 tree. But if you want me, I'll try again.
6 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, please. No, no. But just see if you can
7 exert a little bit of influence by leading him to where it is you want to
8 take him, so that you take him to the subject you want him to discuss and
9 just not leave it to him to work out what he wants to say. I can
10 understand he wants to tell us the whole story. We really do not need to
11 know all this detail.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, believe me.
13 I'm doing my utmost to keep this short. And on the other hand, I don't
14 want to restrain this witness completely because we will not be able to
15 get on the transcript what he is saying, and some of it is important to
16 the Defence.
17 Q. Sir, I will ask you just to tell me briefly, can you see in front
18 of you the piece of paper with a name on it. The usher will now show it
19 to you. Will you please read this name, to yourself, though. Don't say
20 it aloud because it is a protected name, and next to that name there is a
21 number, number 73. Have you read the name? Please don't say it aloud,
22 just read the name and tell us -- have you done that?
23 A. Yes, I have read it.
24 Q. Tell me, have you ever driven that person, the person bearing that
25 name number 73, to Zavajt or anywhere else?
Page 6927
1 A. No. I never travelled to Zavajt.
2 Q. Have you ever made any comments in front of that person, the
3 position of your brother in the KP Dom?
4 A. No. There was never any need for me to do that. There was never
5 any need for me to make any comments about him.
6 Q. Do you remember driving that person anywhere at all, or can you
7 remember any situation when that person was present?
8 A. No, I don't. I don't remember any such thing.
9 Q. For the record, can we clarify this? Is it the case that you
10 don't remember, or rather that you remember never having been with him or
11 driving him?
12 A. I didn't drive him.
13 Q. Do you remember, have you ever told anyone that you advised your
14 brother Milorad to refrain from taking that position at the KP Dom?
15 A. No.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague is warning
17 me about the time. Looking from my angle, it seems to be 4.00.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Not quite, but we've got something to say before we
19 go. We've got the videolink tomorrow, so we'll start off with the two
20 witnesses, the taking of their evidence, and Mr. Krnojelac will have to
21 wait until their evidence is taken before he resumes.
22 Right. We'll adjourn now until 9.30 in the morning.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m., to
24 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of
25 June, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.