Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6928

1 Wednesday, 06 June 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 11.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, these things happen, I'm afraid. But we may

10 get the link established during the day or we may not get it until

11 tomorrow. But hopefully we will still get it at some stage. So I'm very

12 grateful to you all for organising the witness to come back. I'm sorry,

13 Mr. Krnojelac, that you have been called back early.

14 Before we get under way, may I just raise a matter with the

15 Prosecution which has been worrying some of us?

16 In relation to those who disappeared, and I mean those who were

17 sent off purportedly to be exchanged or to go plum picking, we are trying

18 to organise the evidence in various counts, and we are not sure under

19 which count the Prosecution relies in relation to those disappearances. I

20 don't expect you to answer right now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, but we would be

21 grateful to have some indication so that our collection of evidence can be

22 properly classified. It's not exactly easy. I'm sure that it's there

23 somewhere, and it's an issue which has been litigated throughout the

24 trial, so nobody is under any surprise. But we would like to know just

25 where it should be fitted. We will come back to you when you've been able

Page 6929

1 to look that up.

2 Right. Well, Mr. Bakrac, you proceed now with Mr. Krnojelac.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, excuse me, I just waited

4 for you to raise the question that you wished to raise with my learned

5 friend. I thought that we would avoid something that happened during the

6 Prosecution case. However, I would like to ask for protection measures

7 for two witnesses. One will be coming after this. I'm just seeking

8 facial distortion and initials rather than full names. These are two

9 additional witnesses, numbers 32 and 33. These are witnesses who live in

10 Sarajevo. They know that these hearings are televised. They were hoping

11 they wouldn't be, but they are afraid that precisely the segment while

12 they testify will be telecast, and they live in an area where Bosniaks

13 live. So they don't need voice distortion, just facial distortion and

14 initials instead of their names.

15 I shall repeat this once again. I was convinced that we would not

16 be in that kind of a situation ever that we ask for such protective

17 measures from the Trial Chamber a day before the witnesses' testimony. We

18 tried to handle this in a different way, but the witness asked us to ask

19 the Trial Chamber for this possibility.

20 JUDGE HUNT: I hope, Mr. Bakrac, you will blush when I ask you

21 this question. What if the Prosecution says, "But this denies us the

22 opportunity of getting information from those who usually watch the

23 television," which may assist them in their cross-examination of these

24 witnesses?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that you've

Page 6930

1 already made me blush. But by your leave, may I just add one more thing?

2 These are character witnesses. These are people who are not aware of what

3 was going on at the KP Dom. They do not know about facts that the

4 Prosecutor deals with. So if this is a mitigating circumstance, the

5 Defence is seeking protective measures for witnesses who are only

6 character witnesses for the accused.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. What does the Prosecution say?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Other than the Defence counsel, we have no

9 objections.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. Now, what initials would you

11 suggest for Witness 32, Mr. Bakrac? You don't want -- do you want a

12 number, a D number or something like that?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I was waiting for the

14 interpretation, so I rushed head-on again. Since we've already had

15 Witnesses A and B, I think it would only be logical for these witnesses to

16 be Witness C and Witness D.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. The Witness number 32 in the

18 Defence list of witnesses will be referred to as Witness C, and the

19 Witness number 33 in that list will be known as Witness D, and they will

20 be given facial distortion. Thank you.

21 Now, can we proceed?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Examined by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]

Page 6931

1 Q. Good morning, sir. Can you hear me?

2 A. Yes, I can.

3 Q. As I did yesterday, I'm going to ask you once again to pause for

4 the interpretation of my question to finish and then to answer my

5 question.

6 Yesterday we discussed a person who I'm not going to ask you about

7 again. I finished that particular matter. But if necessary - you had a

8 list in front of you. I can't see the list in front of you right

9 now - but if necessary, if you refer to this person, just mention that

10 person as number 73, please, rather than by name.

11 A. I didn't understand you. The name or what?

12 Q. No, no. Wait a minute, please. I want to remind you of

13 something. Yesterday, because one person had protective measures, we had

14 a piece of paper with that person's name on it. You're going to get it

15 again now. So if during your examination-in-chief you want to refer to

16 that person, do not mention that person's name; just refer to that person

17 as number 73, please.

18 A. Number 73.

19 Q. That's right. Sir, do you know a person called Ekrem Zekovic?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Is it correct that you did not know that person?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you perhaps find out subsequently who this person named Ekrem

24 Zekovic is?

25 A. No, I did not. I had no opportunity to find out.

Page 6932

1 Q. Do you know a person named Muhamed Lisica?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Since when have you known Mr. Muhamed Lisica?

4 A. I can't remember the year. I knew him before the war. He was a

5 skilled or a highly skilled worker, a welder of broken cars, exhaust

6 pipes, et cetera. He worked in Ozren, at Brod, for a number of years. I

7 knew him from there. Since we had a makeshift workshop at the KP Dom

8 which was not equipped for major overhauls and repairs of vehicles, we did

9 not have equipment for more complex matters related to machines, engines,

10 et cetera, so our vehicles were serviced by the station at Brod called

11 Ozren. That was the only service station that repaired all vehicles in

12 the Drina area.

13 Q. Can you remember how often you went to Ozren and how often you saw

14 Mr. Muhamed Lisica?

15 A. Well, not often, because our workshop could handle minor repairs.

16 We had mechanics. We did not have many electricians, car electricians --

17 Q. Sir, you don't have to go into all these details. I'm just asking

18 you if you can remember how often you went to Ozren, how many times?

19 A. I can't remember how many times. Perhaps every two years or every

20 year and a half or something like that, in order to have the engine

21 serviced or replaced.

22 Q. Apart from going to the Ozren workshop for repairs, did you see

23 Mr. Muhamed Lisica at some other place or other places?

24 A. No. No, I did not. He was a person who did not strike me as a

25 very serious man, judging by his behaviour amongst his workers. We did

Page 6933

1 not have the opportunity of travelling together because that is in the

2 opposite direction; I mean, the service station is on one side of town and

3 the KP Dom is on another side of town.

4 Q. If I've understood what you've been saying, you saw Mr. Muhamed

5 Lisica exclusively and only when you went to the Ozren workshop?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Please just pause and let me finish my question and let my

8 question be interpreted. Your answer was brief, but nevertheless, could

9 you please wait? Did you see Mr. Muhamed Lisica at the KP Dom when the

10 war conflict broke out, from April onwards?

11 A. I can't remember which time of year it was since I did not go to

12 the metalwork shop. There was no need for me to do it professionally. I

13 drove the vehicle towards the workshop. When I got out of the vehicle, I

14 saw Muhamed Lisica together with the other workers, about 40 or 50 metres

15 away from me. He wore a protective overcoat because he was using that

16 kind of equipment which called for that.

17 Q. Apart from that one time which you just described to us, did you

18 see Mr. Muhamed Lisica ever again at the KP Dom?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When you saw Muhamed Lisica that time that you described to us,

21 did you talk to him?

22 A. There was no need for that, and I did not talk to him.

23 Q. As for the persons I mentioned, Ekrem Zekovic and Muhamed Lisica,

24 or any other person at the metalwork shop or in front of the metalwork

25 shop, did you ever talk to any one of them about your brother's position

Page 6934

1 at the KP Dom?

2 A. No. There was no need for me to do that, to talk about that.

3 Since earlier on, before the war, we were told that we were not supposed

4 to talk to convicted persons, and then in that atmosphere also, I did not

5 talk to anyone.

6 Q. What you said to me just now is quite clear to me, but I'm going

7 to ask you very specifically now. Did you ever say to anyone, including

8 the two above-mentioned persons, that your brother is an asshole, an

9 idiot, because he accepted this appointment by the SDS, and that he will

10 answer for that some day? Did you ever say that to anyone, notably Ekrem

11 Zekovic and Muhamed Lisica?

12 A. Such derogatory terms do not exist in my vocabulary. I could not

13 use such words ever when speaking of anyone, especially not my brother. I

14 think that this is a big mistake, to use such terms. A person who could

15 have used such a word should be ashamed, especially in such places like

16 this one, to use vocabulary like that. I did not say that and I did not

17 talk at all.

18 Q. Do you think that your brother is responsible for the detention of

19 Muslims at the KP Dom in Foca?

20 A. No. He did not go there on behalf of the SDS. He was not a

21 member of the SDS even. His wife is a Croat.

22 Q. Just a minute, please, sir. Tell me, hypothetically, if we were

23 to consider him responsible for the detention of the Muslims, would you

24 ever say that to them, in front of them?

25 A. I could not say that in front of anyone. I could not say that, no

Page 6935













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Page 6936

1 matter who would be listening.

2 Q. You said to us a few minutes ago that your brother was not a

3 member of the SDS. Was he a member of any party? Are you aware of any

4 such thing?

5 A. Yes. It was one party, members of the League of Communists of

6 Yugoslavia, and I was a member of that party as well.

7 Q. So you're sure that your brother was not a member of any other

8 party later?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know, and can you tell me, whether your brother was a

11 person who had nationalistic hang-ups, or to put it briefly, a

12 nationalist?

13 A. No. My brother was a teacher. He made no distinctions in terms

14 of Muslims, Croats, Serbs. He had great friends among the Muslims. I

15 can't say that he had more Muslim friends than he had Serb friends, I

16 don't know exactly who he socialised with, but he had great friends with

17 whom he spent his time, had coffee, worked in the same school with them,

18 et cetera.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. I should like to go back to a question that I've

20 put to you, and this is an explanation for the Honourable Trial Chamber as

21 well because the answer recorded in the transcript is not quite clear. I

22 asked you whether you were sure that your brother was not a member of any

23 other party, and the answer recorded here is "No." That can mean that

24 you're not sure. So could you please clarify this to us? Do you know or

25 do you not know? Are you sure that he was not a member or not?

Page 6937

1 A. He was a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia and he

2 was not a member of the SDS. I understood that you asked me which party

3 he was a member of.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, we will get along a lot more quickly and get

5 your answers recorded a lot more accurately if you would please watch that

6 screen and make sure you do not start your answer until you see the typing

7 stop. Now, please, sir, we have asked you and asked you and asked you

8 about this. We are very anxious to get your evidence, but we are not

9 going to get it accurately if you persist in coming in on top of the

10 interpreters.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but this screen

12 wasn't working at all.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'm glad that it is now. Thank you, sir.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I think it's quite clear now. I

15 think there's no need to go back to this question any more.

16 Q. Tell me, sir: What is Milorad Krnojelac's wife by ethnicity? Do

17 you know?

18 A. I know very well. She is a Croat, an ethnic Croat.

19 Q. Did your brother and his wife have a harmonious marriage before

20 the war?

21 A. A super good marriage.

22 Q. Did something change during the war? Did anything go wrong in

23 that relationship?

24 A. No. No, nothing went wrong. It's still the way it was when it

25 began.

Page 6938

1 Q. Sir, do you know when your brother left the KP Dom in Foca?

2 A. As far as I remember, since I was not present all the time, this

3 was in June/July 1993.

4 Q. When your brother left the KP Dom, do you know whether he found

5 another job immediately? Did he get another work duty?

6 A. No.

7 Q. "No," meaning you don't know, or meaning "no, he didn't"?

8 A. No, he didn't get any other work duty, I think for another year,

9 as far as I know.

10 Q. Do you know what your brother did during that year?

11 A. Nothing. He visited me on the farm to help me with my work, but

12 he didn't do anything else for a long time.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

14 Your Honours, those were all the questions the Defence had for

15 this witness. Thank you.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krnojelac.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. Immediately before the outbreak of the war, you worked in the KP

22 Dom as a driver of a Furgon truck, right?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. You transported products produced in the KP Dom, in particular,

25 furniture, to customers, right?

Page 6939

1 A. I transported furniture most of the time.

2 Q. You also transported raw materials to the Drina Economic Section,

3 right?

4 A. Will you please repeat that question? I didn't quite understand

5 it.

6 Q. You also transported raw materials to the Drina Economic Section,

7 such as wood, sponge, whatever was needed, right?

8 A. Not wood. As for sponge, inputs, cloth, nylon, nuts and bolts,

9 metal rings and frames needed for furniture, I did transport that.

10 Q. The wood needed in the furniture factory, who transported it?

11 JUDGE HUNT: We've got the French translation coming in.

12 [Technical difficulty]

13 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear English now?

14 JUDGE HUNT: We can hear English, but we can also hear French. I

15 don't know whose button is on, but somebody has got it on.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Is it still the case now?

17 JUDGE HUNT: Let's wait and see what the French man says. Yes, it

18 is still coming through in French.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Testing, testing, testing.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps if the French could test as well.

21 THE INTERPRETER: 100, 99, 98, 97, 96, 95.

22 JUDGE HUNT: There's no French coming through.


24 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I think it's best to repeat my question. You may

25 also have had difficulties. The wood that was used in the furniture

Page 6940

1 factory, who transported the wood?

2 A. I don't know about that, because I was on the road every day.

3 Q. You also drove prisoners to work sites before the war; did you do

4 that?

5 A. I did not drive prisoners to work sites, because my job was to

6 carry furniture and my vehicle was allocated for that purpose and for no

7 other purpose, no passengers.

8 Q. And you didn't do that with any other vehicle before the war?

9 A. No. There were other drivers there, and I don't know.

10 Q. Does that mean that before the war, you only drove this Furgon

11 vehicle and no other KP Dom car?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. After the outbreak of the war, in that time afterwards when you

14 worked in the KP Dom, you then drove different cars, not only the Furgon,

15 right? You also drove a FAP truck?

16 A. On two occasions I drove the FAP truck, but my task, I'm saying

17 this again, was specifically to drive the Furgon and to transport

18 furniture.

19 Q. Mr. Micun Jokanovic was your direct supervisor, and you got all

20 your tasks from him, right?

21 A. As far as work is concerned, he was -- and even before the war, he

22 was our boss, because all our rolling stock belonged to the commercial

23 department.

24 Q. Before the war, you drove long distance, right, but during the

25 war, it was Mr. Krsmanovic who drove the long distances, right?

Page 6941













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6942

1 A. Mr. Krsmanovic, in the first months, was on the front line, I

2 don't know how long exactly, and I was driving the Furgon. I wasn't very

3 sure of myself, but I had to do it because my children were being treated

4 in the military medical academy in Belgrade, and I was exploring

5 possibilities to go and visit them.

6 Q. Does that mean that you actually volunteered to have long-distance

7 travelling or what was that supposed to mean, what you just told us? Did

8 you volunteer to have long-distance trips to Belgrade or what?

9 A. No. I was called up again for work duty, and it was an agreement

10 between Micun, Milorad Krnojelac, Bozo Drakul, and Cedo Krnojelac, who

11 worked jointly to restart and restore the economy and restart the

12 business. I was an employee with many years of service there and I simply

13 couldn't refuse to accept that job again, to contribute to this effort to

14 restart the economy.

15 Q. Sir, my question was actually related to long-distance

16 travelling. A driver can do a lot of things, long-distance travelling,

17 short trips, and my question was: When Mr. Krnojelac -- when

18 Mr. Krsmanovic came back to the KP Dom, he did the long-distance

19 travelling while you, the older person, travelled more in Foca, in the

20 closer area, right?

21 A. I didn't have any local trips except with the small TAM vehicle

22 which I drove from time to time to the farm, and in that vehicle, I

23 actually transported people who were supposed to work there.

24 Q. Was there a driver Milic as well in the KP Dom during the war?

25 A. Milic? We at the KP Dom had a guard by the name of Milic. I

Page 6943

1 don't remember his first name. And we also had Dragisa Milic, who was a

2 psychologist.

3 Q. You do not recall any driver Milic?

4 A. No, I don't. Unless you mean the Milic who drove the guards'

5 Mariah vehicle occasionally. They had a Mariah vehicle, the guards did.

6 Q. But that was a guard, right? Dragisa Milic was a guard, he was

7 not a driver? Or was he a driver?

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac?

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness did not say that Dragisa

11 Milic was a guard. He was a psychologist.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A rehabilitation officer.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And the Prosecutor is asking him,

14 "And you said that Dragisa Milic was a guard?" Page 14, line 2.

15 JUDGE HUNT: That seems to be so.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I actually asked him if Milic

17 was a guard. I didn't -- I asked him if Milic was a guard, because

18 according to --

19 JUDGE HUNT: You mean in addition to being a psychologist?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, and not a driver. The point is, Milic

21 was not a driver.

22 Q. Dragisa Milic was not a driver, right?

23 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest you ask the question again, see where

24 you get to, but make it clear that you are anxious to know what he was

25 beyond being a psychologist. You don't have to accept that he was a

Page 6944

1 psychologist, of course. It's a matter for you.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: According to the P3 list, it is, correct.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then.


5 Q. But I'm actually asking you about whether you had a driver, Milic,

6 or someone who, in addition to other jobs, did driving as well?

7 A. While I was around - and I must say, I was on the road a great

8 deal of the time - when I would come back from a trip I would see

9 sometimes Dragisa Milic. But as for him being a driver together with me,

10 I don't know.

11 Q. Dragisa Milic, he occasionally drove an FAP 1612, right?

12 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. It may have happened while I

13 was not around, because I don't recall any such thing.

14 Q. And Dragisa Milic, in which period did he work in the KP Dom

15 during the war? Do you recall that? Did he work throughout the years

16 1992 to 1994? Do you recall that?

17 A. I don't know who worked where and for how long.

18 Q. Your son Momo was the manager of the furniture factory, right?

19 A. My son Momo was the manager of the furniture factory.

20 Q. Before the war and during the war, right?

21 A. Before the war and during the war.

22 Q. The Drina Economic Section also sold farm products before and

23 during the war, right?

24 A. Will you be so kind as to repeat that question?

25 Q. The Drina Economic Section, the entire Drina complex within the KP

Page 6945

1 Dom, also sold farm products before and during the war, did it?

2 A. We did not have any agricultural produce to sell on the market.

3 Q. Sir, the Drina -- the farm produced eggs and meat and milk, right?

4 A. This farm produced eggs, meat, and milk before the war.

5 Q. And they sold it, didn't they?

6 A. Before the war, the output was higher; there were larger

7 quantities. And during the war, before we managed to restart the

8 business, it was rough going. Later on, we got some milk, meat, and eggs,

9 but we didn't sell that. We used them to feed the citizens and the KP

10 Dom.

11 Q. You said, "We used them to feed the citizens and the KP Dom," but

12 that means they sold the products to citizens, right?

13 A. Yes. Those were very small amounts of money which we saved from

14 day to day, and we had very small amounts of produce which we saved also

15 to supply this very small shop in town which sold that produce to people

16 in limited amounts.

17 Q. And when food products from the farm were delivered --

18 THE INTERPRETER: A part of the answer is missing at the end. We

19 missed the part of the answer.


21 Q. Sir, the interpreters did not understand all of your answer. They

22 only caught the last --

23 A. Repeat it, please.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... your last answer completely.

25 Can you repeat the end?

Page 6946

1 JUDGE HUNT: It's a bit difficult for him to answer that one.


3 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps we should read to him what his answer is as

4 it is recorded.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Will you please repeat it?


7 Q. Yes. I will read to you what you --

8 JUDGE HUNT: The question and the answer.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The question and the answer, yes.

10 Q. You said -- my question was: "You said, 'We used them to feed the

11 citizens and the KP Dom,' but that means that they sold the products to

12 citizens?" And then your answer was: "Yes. Those were very small

13 amounts of money which we saved from day to day, and we had very small

14 amounts of produce which we saved also to supply this very small shop in

15 town which sold that produce to people in limited amounts." That is what

16 the interpreter heard. Did you say anything else?

17 A. I said that we didn't just sell, or rather bring it to the shop

18 for sale, but that we also brought it to the KP Dom warehouses to feed the

19 people who were there.

20 Q. And when you made such deliveries, or the other drivers, did you

21 use a red Kedi or red Poly vehicle?

22 A. No. I never drove the Poly at all. I got to drive the two-tonne

23 TAM vehicle which had two benches inside and was covered by a canvas

24 sheet. I was not the only driver of that vehicle. We took turns on it,

25 and we used it to transport milk and eggs in the amounts that were made --

Page 6947













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Page 6948

1 that were prepared.

2 Q. Sir, I asked you specifically about the red Kedi or red Poly. Who

3 drove it, if not you?

4 A. I don't remember either the Poly or the Kedi.

5 Q. You don't recall that there was such a car or what, or don't you

6 just not recall who drove it?

7 A. I don't remember who drove them. And as far as the Kedi is

8 concerned, I don't remember that we had a vehicle by that name.

9 Q. Sir, my understanding is the Kedi and the Poly is just the same,

10 just some people call it Poly and some others call it Kedi. So if you

11 prefer Poly, then we stick with Poly. What was the Poly used for?

12 A. I don't really know because I never drove it. When I came for my

13 work duty, I didn't even see it. I don't know who drove it or where it

14 was.

15 Q. The cars of the KP Dom, they were all parked within the area of

16 the metalwork shop, right?

17 A. Not all vehicles were within the metalwork shop. The two-tonne

18 FAP and the Furgon were parked in the parking area which was used even

19 before the war, since as far as I can remember, we lost in that war

20 turmoil one Mercedes, two Ladas, a van and so on and so forth.

21 Q. Sir, we will request you to stick to my question. I was not

22 asking about any other cars.

23 A. Could you repeat that question?

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Wait a minute.

25 [Alarm sounds]

Page 6949

1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

2 JUDGE HUNT: I'm just having some inquiries made as to whether

3 that is a real alarm or one of these exercises that the security people

4 like to put us through, and to make a request that if it is the latter,

5 that because of the time we've already lost, we should continue. But we

6 will let you know what happens.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But I shall continue.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, please.


10 Q. Sir, it was not a question. It was just a reminder that you

11 should stick to my question and not speak about other things that were not

12 asked. You say that the cars, the vehicles that you drove, were not

13 parked within the metalwork shop area. Is that what you say?

14 A. They were not parked within the metalwork shop.

15 Q. So you, when you took a truck or, yes, a truck, if you took a

16 truck --

17 JUDGE HUNT: Excuse me a moment.


19 JUDGE HUNT: I'm told it's an air-raid alarm from outside that the

20 Netherlands still run once a month, an air-raid alarm, as a trial, and we

21 need not be concerned with it.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

23 Q. Sir, when you had to take a truck to drive goods, you would not go

24 into the metalwork shop then? You just would go to the parking in front

25 of the KP Dom? Is that what you say?

Page 6950

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the red Kedi -- the red Poly that we talked about, it was

3 parked inside the metalwork shop area, right?

4 A. I did not talk about a Poly. I did not even see it. And I can't

5 talk about it.

6 Q. Sir, we were talking about a red Poly, and so far you had answered

7 my questions related to this car, and now you say you did not talk about a

8 Poly. Now, I wonder what do you mean?

9 A. I did not see it and I don't know who drove it, if it existed

10 there at all. That's what I said by way of an answer a few minutes ago, I

11 think.

12 Q. Sir, you mentioned a Mercedes car. Was this car used for the

13 purpose of the warden before the war?

14 A. Yes. It was used for the warden before the war.

15 Q. Did the warden have a specific driver or did he drive on his own?

16 A. He had a driver.

17 Q. Who was that?

18 A. Risto Matovic.

19 Q. During the war, the warden's car was a red Yugo, right?

20 A. What was that? I didn't understand that. Could you please repeat

21 it?

22 Q. During the war, the warden's car was a red Yugo, correct?

23 A. Which warden are you referring to?

24 Q. I'm referring to your brother. There was no other warden, right?

25 There was your brother.

Page 6951

1 A. My brother was not the warden.

2 Q. Who then was the warden?

3 A. He was the director, the director and the temporary warden, for us

4 and persons he found at the KP Dom who had been convicted before.

5 Q. Your brother was the only warden in the KP Dom from April 1992 to

6 summer 1993, right? There was no other warden?

7 A. He was not the warden. Somebody called him warden. Somebody

8 called him director. Somebody called him boss. Because he was appointed

9 for getting the economy going.

10 Q. What car did your brother drive? Was it the red Yugo car?

11 A. Yes, it was.

12 Q. Did this car belong to the KP Dom or was it his private car?

13 A. My brother had a private vehicle, a Yugo. Later there was another

14 Yugo that he drove round the town of Foca.

15 Q. The red Yugo. We are talking about a red Yugo. Was it the

16 private car of your brother or did it belong to the KP Dom?

17 A. Since both were red, one of them belonged to the KP Dom.

18 Q. When did your brother get the first red Yugo that you mentioned?

19 When did he get it?

20 A. I can't remember, because both were the same: red. I can't say

21 exactly which month this was. I know that he parked his vehicle and used

22 the vehicle that somebody allocated to him. Who that was, I don't know.

23 Q. Where did he put his -- let's call it his private red Yugo? Where

24 did he park it? At his house or in Cerezluk, or where?

25 A. Precisely in Cerezluk, by my house.

Page 6952

1 Q. It was an older car, then? He had it before the war, right?

2 A. Before, a lot earlier, he had a Skoda, and then he got a Yugo,

3 before the war.

4 Q. Yes. And the one he parked in Cerezluk was an older vehicle,

5 right; it was not new?

6 A. In Cerezluk, in my garage, there was only that Yugo. There

7 weren't any other new cars.

8 Q. The other car, the second red Yugo that was allocated to the KP

9 Dom, your brother used it during the war for business trips and also for

10 private travelling, right?

11 A. He could not use it for private purposes. He used it for these

12 short official trips.

13 Q. When he left the KP Dom after his time, as you call it, temporary

14 warden, he took this car with him, didn't he?

15 A. Please repeat that question.

16 Q. When your brother left the KP Dom in summer 1993, he took this

17 second Yugo with him, right?

18 A. No, he did not take it. That Yugo remained in the KP Dom for

19 Zoran Sekulovic, the new warden.

20 Q. Zoran Sekulovic drove a white Golf, didn't he?

21 A. I don't know the reason why, how come he managed to get a Golf and

22 where he got it from and the Yugo disappeared.

23 Q. The red Yugo, the second red Yugo, was serviced in the KP Dom by

24 detainees working in the car workshop, right?

25 A. I personally do not remember any repair of the Yugo in the KP Dom.

Page 6953













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6954

1 Q. The detainees, the Muslim detainees working in the car workshop,

2 they serviced all cars, all vehicles in the KP Dom, right?

3 A. I don't know about that, since I had a vehicle that was in pretty

4 good condition and I drove that. I think that they could not do that much

5 servicing, because before the war even, we did not have a warehouse with

6 spare parts of any meaningful proportions. So since they did not have any

7 spare parts, they could hardly have done it, and it was difficult to

8 obtain spare parts during the war.

9 Q. They took spare parts from the old vehicles that were out of order

10 and that were parked along the Drina River, didn't they?

11 A. They did not. As for the spare parts that had to be replaced,

12 that was done by the Ozren service shop. They maintained their workshop

13 throughout the war, at Brod.

14 Q. Let me clarify your answer. Do you say that Muslim detainees who

15 worked at the car workshop did not take parts off old cars? Is that your

16 answer?

17 A. I do not remember, because it was not necessary. It was not

18 possible to use a part from a large transport vehicle on a luxury vehicle,

19 and there weren't any luxury vehicles at the parking lot. We didn't have

20 them within the compound at all.

21 Q. I was not talking about the compound and I was not talking about

22 the official parking lot, sir. I said specifically the old trucks that

23 were out of order and that were parked along the Drina River. There was

24 such a spot for the old cars, right?

25 A. Yes. However, during my time, the time I spent there, I do not

Page 6955

1 remember that we would take apart one vehicle and make another one out of

2 it, because when the war broke out, the vehicles were technically in

3 proper condition.

4 Q. Sir, you even took Mr. Lisica and Mr. Zekovic just to these old

5 vehicles at the Drina River to put off parts, didn't you? You supervised

6 them there.

7 A. I did not take them out to take off parts. I would not be in

8 charge of any such thing either, for me to be present to see what they

9 were doing.

10 Q. Sir, and you also took Muslim detainees, car mechanics, to Ozren

11 in Brod so that they work on old cars or used cars, right?

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we did not get an

13 interpretation of this question.

14 JUDGE HUNT: The question - I'll read it so that it can be

15 interpreted for you - was: "Sir, and you also took Muslim detainees, car

16 mechanics, to" --


18 JUDGE HUNT: -- "in Brod so that they work on old cars or used

19 cars, right?"

20 A. I did not take them. There were mechanics up there. I was not in

21 charge of doing any such thing either.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

23 show the witness a list with names that we actually had produced to -- not

24 to use certain names, and there is one for all participants.

25 JUDGE HUNT: This pseudonym document will be Exhibit P456, and it

Page 6956

1 will be under seal.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Sir, please have a look at the second name on this list of names

4 with the number 249, and please do not say the name. Use the number 249.

5 You know the person 249, right?

6 A. This person?

7 Q. 249, right.

8 A. I know this person well.

9 Q. He is a good car mechanic, right?

10 A. Good car mechanic. We who worked before the war in transportation

11 services, with freight vehicles, as far as servicing was concerned, we

12 requested -- all right. This man, this mechanic, we wanted him to service

13 our vehicles. There was another one, a Serb, who was as good as he was,

14 and I can't remember his name.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. The interpreters, the court

16 reporters, and the audiovisual staff have very kindly agreed to sit on

17 until 1.00, our usual adjournment time. If there is anybody that has a

18 problem about sitting on for the extra half hour, please let us know now.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Not me, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Very well then. We will continue.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, the Defence

22 is not bothered, but I would still like to ask, since the witness has been

23 here from the very beginning, could we just ask the witness whether he can

24 stay until 1.00? Usually witnesses have an hour and a half, but this

25 witness started from the very beginning, so perhaps, if he would need a

Page 6957

1 break, we could ask him, since he will be the only witness who will be

2 testifying for two hours. And I think that he is the oldest witness of

3 all except for a few Prosecution witnesses.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I shudder to tell you, Mr. Bakrac, that he is the

5 same age as I am, and I am very used to sitting for two hours at a time.

6 But anyway, if the witness has any problem, please let us know, sir.


8 Q. Sir, you knew the person 249 from before the war, and as I

9 understand you, you respected him as a good crafts -- good, skilled

10 worker?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you never had any problems with him?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And you took this person 249 to the Ozren company to work on a

15 truck that belonged to Ferid, a Muslim in Brod, right?

16 A. I did not personally drive this person to the service shop to

17 build vehicles.

18 Q. Do you know that he was working there as a detainee, taking parts

19 from Ferid's truck? Do you know that?

20 A. I'm not aware of that at all, about him taking parts off

21 something, and building them into something else?

22 Q. You did not only take him there, you even stayed with him there

23 until he had his work done. Isn't that the truth?

24 A. I did not take him there and I did not wait for him to finish his

25 work.

Page 6958

1 Q. Do you know the son of this person 249?

2 A. No, no. I don't know him. Once we lit a cigarette together at

3 the Dom and he told me his son was there as well, but I didn't know him.

4 Q. Where did you lit the cigarette? Where were you and he?

5 A. I got into our mechanics' workshop where he happened to be. I

6 came in with the Furgon so that the front part could be examined to see

7 whether the vehicle was ready for the road or not. I was quite a smoker

8 then. We both lit cigarettes, and when I left, I gave him five cigarettes

9 so that he could have more to smoke.

10 Q. You did not only lit the cigarettes, you talked, didn't you?

11 A. The conversation did not last more than ten minutes, ten minutes

12 at the most, because I was in a hurry to get out with the Furgon.

13 Q. Before the war, the Drina Economic Unit had business contacts with

14 companies in Montenegro and Serbia, right?

15 A. Before the war, we had business contacts with Serbia, Montenegro,

16 Croatia, and our other republics. Truth to tell, I personally did not go

17 to Slovenia.

18 Q. The products of the KP Dom, especially the furniture factory, were

19 well-received among customers, right? They were good products?

20 A. The products of the KP Dom varied. There were several different

21 kinds. There were traditional products for villages and then different

22 products for towns, and it depended on who would order what.

23 Q. Sir, I didn't want to go into the details what exactly was

24 produced for what purposes. My question was that the goods produced,

25 especially in the furniture factory, were easy to sell. You had permanent

Page 6959













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6960

1 business partners, didn't you?

2 A. What we manufactured operated pretty well.

3 Q. The business contacts with customers in Montenegro and Serbia

4 continued throughout the war, right?

5 A. Yes. We were torn apart by problems, but we had some stock left,

6 but we couldn't get payment for it, not in money. We got food supplies,

7 concentrates, in exchange. That's the only way we could do it, because we

8 had no money.

9 Q. When you started out with a load of furniture from Montenegro and

10 Serbia, you knew where to deliver them, right? You knew that before and

11 during the war.

12 A. Any orders that we received were negotiated by Milorad, Micun

13 Jokanovic, and we would load goods according to contract. It was all

14 within the framework of barter deals, because the payments system did not

15 function, so we had to use some of the produce of the farm and leave a

16 part of it for ourselves.

17 Q. Sir, I would like to know what you did. It's not -- you were not

18 engaged in this negotiation of contracts, right? You were not involved in

19 this. You were the driver.

20 A. I was not a businessman. I was a driver. Moreover, I wouldn't

21 see what they loaded onto my truck, whether it was a bookshelf or a sofa.

22 I would get a waybill from the dispatcher and I could read the names of

23 goods there only. If I had more schooling, I wouldn't have been a driver

24 in the first place.

25 Q. That's understood. And when you left the KP Dom with a load of

Page 6961

1 furniture, you knew where to drive; you knew where to deliver that,

2 right? You had an address.

3 A. That was written in the waybill.

4 Q. And you also had an address of where to go next to take back goods

5 to the KP Dom, such as fodder and food, right?

6 A. I didn't always know what I would be bringing back. It depended

7 on what the companies would agree among themselves in the meantime. I

8 would deliver furniture to one company, and that company which received

9 the furniture would agree with a third company to provide me with

10 concentrate in exchange, on their behalf.

11 Q. But it was all prearranged by the business people, by the office

12 clerks, right? It was all prearranged before you left the KP Dom, right?

13 A. Our commercial department had to do that part of the job, and it

14 was handled by the three persons I mentioned, who had reached all the

15 necessary agreements beforehand. And of course, I couldn't go on a trip

16 without specific plans having been made. I would know that I was going to

17 a warehouse to get canned food and the next day I would get a sack full of

18 beans from a second place. And if I was driving concentrate, I wasn't the

19 only one to go to get it. There would be people before me and I would

20 have to wait for my turn.

21 Q. Sir, you lived in the Cerezluk neighbourhood. That's a Serb

22 neighbourhood, right?

23 A. The place where I lived personally was not populated at all until

24 1959, and then in 1959 the Serbs began to settle there.

25 Q. Sir, we would not need all these details. It's a Serb

Page 6962

1 neighbourhood, and that's actually enough.

2 A. Yes, it's a Serb settlement.

3 Q. You lived in a house adjacent to the house of your older brother,

4 Sreta, right? You said it was partitioned vertically.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did the Kunarac family live close to your house, Lekso Kunarac?

7 A. I don't know what you call close, but it was about --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure of the distance.

9 Could the witness repeat it?


11 Q. Could you please repeat the distance? The interpreters did not

12 hear you.

13 A. I didn't understand you.

14 Q. The interpreter did not hear the distance that you just

15 mentioned. Can you repeat the distance between your house and the Kunarac

16 house?

17 A. It's a distance of about 12 to 1500 metres.

18 Q. Do you see the Kunarac house from your house?

19 A. No.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

21 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] In the transcript, page 17, line 30,

23 it says, "12 to 1500 metres." The witness said, "1200 to 1500 metres."

24 Perhaps we should correct it now to avoid confusion later. If it said

25 1.2, I could understand, but it says 12.

Page 6963

1 JUDGE HUNT: If somebody says it is between 12 and 1500 metres, I

2 would not myself interpret that as being from 12 metres to 1500 metres.

3 It's just an ordinary English expression. I think that there is no doubt

4 that what the witness intended to convey, and which the answer as

5 translated certainly does convey; he was talking about between 1200 and

6 1500 metres. I'm afraid it's idiomatic English, Mr. Bakrac. I'm sorry to

7 have to explain it to you that way, but you need not be concerned.

8 You proceed.


10 Q. Your brother Milorad lived in a row of houses in Donje Polje that

11 was right on the confrontation line between the Muslims and the Serbs,

12 right?

13 A. He was not on the line. I did -- did not even know where that

14 line was put.

15 Q. But the house was in Donje Polje, in a Muslim --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- neighbourhood, predominantly Muslim neighbourhood, right?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Your brother-in-law -- maybe - I hope I got his name right - Ilija

20 Radovic, also lived there, right? He had a house there too, didn't he?

21 A. Yes. They were next to each other.

22 Q. Were these separate houses or were they connected to each other,

23 like your brother Sreta and yours?

24 A. They were not connected in the way my house was connected to my

25 brother's.

Page 6964

1 Q. So were they separate houses, without any connecting wall that

2 they shared? Is that what you say?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Your answer "no" is a little bit ambiguous. So they were separate

5 houses?

6 A. Repeat the question.

7 Q. Your answer "no" to my question they were separate houses, without

8 any contacting wall, does that mean they were separate and they did not

9 have a wall together?

10 A. I'm talking about houses which had their own walls, own separate

11 walls. They had no walls in common. There was a space between houses.

12 Q. The Serbs living in this row of houses, they were in an endangered

13 position in case of a war, right? It was not safe to be among the

14 Muslims, correct?

15 A. If I understood your question correctly, nobody ever thought they

16 were in danger if they had Muslim neighbours, or in the case of Muslims,

17 if they had a Serb neighbour.

18 Q. Before the war, nobody would have thought that he would be

19 endangered living among the other ethnic group, but immediately before the

20 war, the people from Foca moved into the quarters of their respective

21 group, ethnic group, because it was safer; isn't that correct?

22 A. I'm not aware that anyone of any ethnicity moved to different

23 areas because they felt insecure or unsafe, because we were all sure.

24 Moreover, we invited each other for coffee and even to our own religious

25 holidays that we celebrated respectively, and we all visited each other.

Page 6965













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6966

1 Q. When the houses burned down, the house of your brother, of your

2 brother-in-law and these other Serb houses in Donje Polje, nobody got

3 hurt, right? The houses were destroyed but nobody got hurt, no person,

4 right?

5 A. As far as I know, I personally did not hear of any injuries,

6 because those people who got hurt got out with just the clothing they were

7 wearing.

8 Q. Nobody got hurt because the Serb families living in this row of

9 houses had abandoned them when the conflict broke out; isn't that right?

10 A. Not before the conflict. I wasn't there. I was away in my

11 village. I heard from townspeople that some roadblocks were put up by

12 Muslims in Donje Polje. I wasn't there to see it. I don't know when

13 people left town, but I know about my brother. I cannot remember exactly,

14 but he got out on the third or the fourth night. He was under heavy

15 fire. There was a fierce conflict there, and he got out and came to

16 Cerezluk, to my place.

17 Q. You said that your brother left when the gunfire started, and the

18 gunfire started on the 8th of April. That's when the conflict broke out

19 and that is when your brother left his house, isn't it?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know whether it

21 was really said that way, because I cannot follow English and B/C/S at the

22 same time, but the witness said, actually, the following: "The conflict

23 broke out on the 8th of April." And we got the interpretation into B/C/S

24 that it was in the end of April. So the witness may have been confused by

25 this interpretation. That's what we heard in our headphones. I don't

Page 6967

1 know whether it was put that way in English.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know how the witness can be confused by the

3 interpretation, but I think what you're suggesting is that the question

4 has confused him, which has been based upon the interpretation. I'm just

5 looking through the transcript to see where this "April" came up.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The "April" came up, actually, during --

7 JUDGE HUNT: Some time ago, wasn't it?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. It's when he started to describe what

9 news he got in Birotici. The witness mentioned that according to what he

10 was told, the war broke out on the 8th of April.

11 JUDGE HUNT: And then the answer he gave which led to your

12 question was: "I cannot remember exactly, but he got out on the third or

13 the fourth night." That's what you're relying upon.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. But, Your Honour, I was just repeating

15 what he said during the examination-in-chief. During the

16 examination-in-chief he said that his brother left when the gunfire

17 started.


19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And that is what I'm now actually putting to

20 him.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Bakrac, I'm sorry if you are confused, but

22 you have confused me now. I don't know where we're headed with this. If

23 that's what he said in his evidence in chief, that his brother left when

24 the gunfire started, and the gunfire started in April, what's wrong with

25 the question?

Page 6968

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's just a mistake in

2 the interpretation that we get in our headphones. It says "the 8th of

3 April" on the transcript, but the interpretation of that particular

4 question that we got sounded like this: "You said the war started in end

5 April." And the witness didn't say this, actually. In the

6 examination-in-chief he said it started on the 8th of April. That's why

7 I'm saying the witness may be confused by this, because of the

8 interpretation we got.

9 THE INTERPRETER: [Previous translation continues] ... booth

10 apologises. It was a mistake in the translation and I confused "the 8th

11 of April" for "the end of April." So it is the 8th of April. I hope it's

12 all clear now.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. We'll get the question asked

14 again. I don't think there's anything wrong with the question, frankly,

15 but the interpretation of the question is conceded to be wrong. So ask

16 the question again and it will, I'm sure, be translated correctly.


18 Q. When you were asked by Mr. Bakrac about the events, you mentioned

19 that your brother left when the gunfire started, but the gunfire started

20 in Foca on the 8th of April and not three, four days later.

21 A. Yes. The regrouping was not that strong, because we didn't even

22 think that it would reach the proportions that it eventually reached. And

23 I remember that when I came down from my village - I don't remember

24 whether it was the 9th. I suppose it was - I remember that my brother,

25 that evening or the next evening - I don't remember - but in any case, it

Page 6969

1 was dusk. I was very confused by the shooting. I cannot tell you the

2 hour or the time, but that was when he got out with his family and his

3 brother-in-law and they all came to join me in Cerezluk.

4 Q. If I understand you correctly, he came either on the 9th or on the

5 10th of April. Is that what you say?

6 A. I cannot say with any certainty whether it was the 9th or the

7 10th.

8 Q. And your brother-in-law Ilija came together with him, with him and

9 his family; is that correct?

10 A. My brother-in-law, the husband of my wife's sister, he was away at

11 that time. He had gone to his village, just as I had, to take care of the

12 sowing. He is an older man and retired.

13 Q. And the family of --

14 JUDGE HUNT: I think we've taken sufficient advantage of all of

15 the staff for the length of time we've been sitting. We're very grateful

16 to the interpreters, the court reporters, and the audiovisual people for

17 sitting on. We'll resume again at 2.30.

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.








Page 6970

1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krnojelac.

5 A. I can barely hear you.

6 Q. Can you hear me now better? I mean, you hear the interpreters.

7 Can you hear them?

8 A. I can.

9 Q. I just greeted you, so you have not missed something. Sir, before

10 the break --

11 A. Thank you.

12 Q. Before the break, we spoke about the arrival of various family

13 members in your house and Sreta's house. When did Ilija, your

14 brother-in-law, arrive at your place in Cerezluk?

15 A. He is not my brother-in-law in that sense, in the sense of zet,

16 z-e-t. He is my brother-in-law in the sense of badzenog. I said that a

17 few minutes ago. That is to say that he is my sister-in-law's husband. I

18 can't remember. He was in the country. He found out that his house had

19 burned down. He got in within a week, a week, I'm sure. I can't remember

20 the exact date though.

21 Q. Was he in the house when you arrived there, coming from your

22 village?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How many days later did he arrive; do you recall?

25 A. I can't recall the day. About three or four days, because I

Page 6971













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6972

1 remember it had just happened. Some of the beams were still smoking, so

2 he could see that from my house.

3 Q. So on the day when the house, the Krnojelac house, burned and

4 this -- the person Ilija's house burned, he was already there?

5 A. Ilija was not present at that moment.

6 Q. I understood that you, when you saw the houses burn, went to the

7 ground floor and asked Ilija and Milorad to come and look. That is at

8 least what I have in -- what I remember you said.

9 A. I don't remember having mentioned Ilija. I remember having

10 mentioned that I said this to my brother. I could not have said this -- I

11 could not have said that the house was on fire because his wife was there,

12 so I said that he should come and see for himself what was going on.

13 Q. Whose wife was there?

14 A. Repeat that question.

15 Q. You mentioned, "I could not have said that the house was on fire

16 because his wife was there," and I wonder, to which wife are you

17 referring?

18 A. The wife of Milorad Krnojelac.

19 Q. When your brother and his wife arrived in Cerezluk, were they in

20 their car?

21 A. I don't know. I can't remember. They came by car but whose car

22 it was, I can't remember.

23 Q. Whose else's car could it have been? Did they come to -- with

24 someone else, together with someone else?

25 A. I remember that a waiter, his son's brother-in-law, who happened

Page 6973

1 to be in the restaurant, had a Fiat 750, called Fica.

2 Q. Was this -- this brother-in-law, was he together with

3 Mr. Krnojelac, or why do you refer to this Fiat?

4 A. He worked for him, because he had a restaurant in the house, on

5 the ground floor. He worked as a waiter.

6 Q. So this waiter came with him to Cerezluk? Is that what you say?

7 Is that what you remember?

8 A. Yes. And he stayed a few days over there. I can't remember

9 later, what happened later, because I went to the country.

10 Q. The sons of your brother Milorad, did they also come to Cerezluk?

11 A. The sons of my brother came to Cerezluk.

12 Q. When did they come?

13 A. They came in two groups, as far as I can remember, since they all

14 could not fit into the Fica, so the others went in the evening.

15 Q. Who came in the Fica together with Milorad? Who of the sons?

16 A. I can't remember, because they didn't come to right in front of

17 the door. There's a gate that is about 20 metres away from the yard, and

18 I didn't happen to be at the gate then.

19 Q. The other neighbours living in that same row of houses that was

20 burnt down, Bozo Drakul and Savo Obrenovic, they went to Orahovo, right?

21 They also --

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. And your colleague, Miladin Matovic, who also lived there, he also

24 went to Orahovo; do you know that?

25 A. I don't know who went where, because in that kind of situation I

Page 6974

1 didn't know myself when I should decide to go back to my village.

2 Q. When Milorad, with his family, arrived, you said, "They stayed so

3 that we could all stay alive." That's what you said during the

4 examination-in-chief. So does that mean they intended to stay until the

5 war -- the fighting was over, to stay alive?

6 A. Please repeat that question to me.

7 Q. You said that they came to Cerezluk, the Milorad family came to

8 Cerezluk, so that "we could all stay alive." That is what you said. And

9 I wonder, does that mean they intended to stay for a while until the

10 danger and the fighting is over?

11 A. Since we always got along well, it is only natural that they

12 retreated, because this was a predominantly Serb neighbourhood, so that

13 they would not stay back where their house was.

14 Q. And when people go somewhere in a safe place, they take things

15 with them, clothing and other items, right? That's natural.

16 A. They didn't have time, most probably, and they could not have

17 imagined that they could not return to their house, that it would burn

18 down, actually.

19 Q. Mr. Tesovic, the pre-war warden, was highly respected in Foca,

20 wasn't he?

21 A. I don't know that he was more highly respected than others who

22 honestly did their jobs.

23 Q. Mr. Tesovic was your chief, right?

24 A. Yes. He was my warden.

25 Q. He was experienced in his job because he did it for quite some

Page 6975

1 years, right?

2 A. I don't know. I was a driver. I could not test him as to what he

3 was like.

4 Q. The economy, the Drina commercial department, was doing good,

5 right? It was working well.

6 A. The Drina Economic Unit was doing well. The payment system was in

7 place. There was lots of work and salaries were paid.

8 Q. So Mr. Simovic, the head of the Drina section, and Mr. Tesovic,

9 were successful in their job; doesn't that mean that?

10 A. Not only Simovic. Their predecessors were successful too, because

11 they were not the only ones to improve production. Generations and

12 generations came, and everybody did his own job.

13 Q. Sir, I'm really wondering now: Whenever I ask you about someone,

14 you drift away to speak about something else. Do you do that on purpose?

15 Don't you want to answer my questions?

16 A. I want to answer, and I believe that I am answering your

17 questions. If I drifted away, I do apologise.

18 Q. Mr. Tesovic was a warden who did a job for quite some time, and it

19 was quite natural to leave him in this position as long as he doesn't do

20 anything bad, right? That's natural. That's normal.

21 A. It is natural, normal. He had various political -- he held

22 various political offices in the municipality, and at that moment, he

23 happened to be warden of the KP Dom.

24 Q. Mr. Tesovic was a moderate man who disapproved of all these

25 nationalistic tendencies, right?

Page 6976

1 A. Mr. Tesovic, just like Milorad Krnojelac, did not approve. They

2 were not nationalists. They were members of the League of Communists.

3 Q. However, Mr. Tesovic was replaced on the 18th of April with your

4 brother. That's true, right?

5 A. Mr. Tesovic was not replaced. He was not in Foca at the beginning

6 of the war.

7 Q. Your brother Milorad became the temporary warden of the KP Dom on

8 the 18th of April 1992. That's correct, isn't it?

9 A. I cannot remember the date when he was appointed director and

10 temporary warden of the KP Dom.

11 Q. Mr. Berberkic, the deputy warden, a Muslim, he left Foca when the

12 war started, right?

13 A. I was not there. I do not remember when he left.

14 Q. But his position remained vacant for more than a year, until

15 summer 1993, right?

16 A. The position of deputy warden was vacant until Milorad Krnojelac,

17 temporary warden, was replaced.

18 Q. Mr. Simovic, the head of the Drina section, also left the KP Dom.

19 Do you know what he did afterwards?

20 A. I do not remember seeing Mr. Simovic at all after the war broke

21 out, since I was absent.

22 Q. But you came later to the KP Dom and he was gone, he wasn't there

23 any more, right?

24 A. I don't know what happened to him.

25 Q. When the war started, the prisoners of Muslim ethnicity were

Page 6977













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Page 6978

1 transferred to Montenegro and ended up in the Tuzla prison. Do you know

2 that?

3 A. I am not aware of where they ended up. I know that they left, but

4 where they ended up, I don't know about that.

5 Q. Mr. Tesovic, Mr. Milutin Tijanin, and Mr. Rasevic, they

6 accompanied these detainees, these prisoners, on their way out of Foca to

7 the new prison, right? You're aware of this?

8 A. I heard that they went out and that Milutin Tijanin and Radojica

9 Tesovic and Mico Rasevic were with them probably, accompanying them, but I

10 don't know about this.

11 Q. After having transferred the Muslim prisoners, Mr. Rasevic

12 returned to his position as the commander of the guards, right?

13 A. He returned, but I don't know when.

14 Q. But he returned to his old post in the KP Dom?

15 A. I don't know what he did.

16 Q. You were talking about Mr. Rasevic. You know that he was the camp

17 commander -- sorry, the guard commander. We were talking about Rasevic.

18 A. Since I was not a guard, I don't know what he did and what kind of

19 duties he had.

20 Q. Mr. Tesovic, when he returned in April 1992, he started to work on

21 the farm and not in his previous position, right?

22 A. He worked at the farm, but when he did and what he did at the

23 farm, I don't know.

24 Q. Mr. Tijanin, when he returned, he also did not resume this

25 function in the rehabilitation section. What did he do?

Page 6979

1 A. I don't know. I did not see him.

2 Q. Did they refuse to work in their previous function as the warden

3 and as the rehabilitation officer? Do you know that?

4 A. I could not know that, because I'm a driver. I did not go into

5 that, who would do what.

6 Q. The Muslim prisoners, when they were transferred, they were

7 transported in Furgon trucks. You are aware of that fact, right?

8 A. I don't know about that.

9 Q. The Furgon trucks later on remained in Montenegro and were driven

10 back to the KP Dom by two drivers. Do you know that?

11 A. I don't know. When I got there, there was a number of Furgons at

12 the parking lot.

13 Q. So you were not one of the drivers who drove these trucks back?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You said that when the war started, you engaged in guarding the

16 village Birotici. Did you have rifle and uniform?

17 A. I had two hunting rifles. I did not have a uniform. I just had

18 my civilian clothes that I wore at home. I was a huntsman. I have those

19 rifles until the present day. They are at my home.

20 Q. You were not equipped with uniform or an automatic rifle; that's

21 what I understand from your answer. You used your old -- or your hunting

22 rifles?

23 A. Yes. Yes. Hunting rifle, not military rifle. Nobody also issued

24 any military weapons to us, as far as the village is concerned.

25 Q. Who was the commander or the head of this village guard? Who was

Page 6980

1 that?

2 A. It was Ljubisa Dostic.

3 Q. And was he a soldier, or who put him in this position to be the

4 head of the village guards?

5 A. I don't remember who appointed him. I know that he used to be a

6 worker, an electrician, in the forestry and industrial enterprise of

7 Maglic.

8 Q. Was he a soldier at that time?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Who ordered you and the other villagers to stand village guard?

11 A. We started doing that of our own accord, and there were not many

12 of us and most of us were elderly like myself. We determined our own

13 positions and we did not have a specific guard post; we just made rounds

14 in the evening lest there be an incident or something, because there were

15 women and small children there.

16 Q. While you stood guard or while you were in the village in spring

17 1992, you tried to help Muslims to get safely out of the area, right? You

18 helped Muslims, didn't you?

19 A. I didn't even see any Muslims, because we have a village of

20 Zupnija next to us, but it's pretty far removed, about an hour's walk.

21 Q. So you say you never came across Muslims, Muslim villagers, in the

22 area; is that what you say?

23 A. Could you please repeat that question?

24 Q. You never came across Muslim villagers during your time in

25 Birotici?

Page 6981

1 A. If you mean during the state of war, I didn't.

2 Q. On your way to Foca, to Cerezluk, when you brought food to your

3 family there, did you come across Muslims on your way?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you go on foot or did you drive from Birotici to --

6 A. I went on foot. There were three roads from my village leading to

7 Foca, to Cerezluk, and I chose the road which leads to Muslim

8 neighbourhoods [as interpreted].

9 Q. When you went through these Muslim neighbourhoods, you met

10 Muslims, right? That's natural.

11 A. I didn't know whether they were there, and I didn't come across

12 that place where their village used to be.

13 Q. Let me clarify something. According to the transcript, you said,

14 "I chose the road which leads to Muslim neighbourhoods." Did you

15 actually say that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. What kind of road did you choose?

18 A. I chose the road where there were no Muslims, where there was no

19 Muslim population.

20 Q. It's clarified. How did you learn that Micun Jokanovic needed an

21 additional driver? How did you learn about that fact? Did your brother

22 tell you?

23 A. My relative came, who lived in the adjacent house, and said to

24 Micun Jokanovic, "I would need Arso to be relieved and come to us for work

25 duty." I set out, I don't know after how many days -- I set out to go to

Page 6982

1 my company and see what it was all about. I found Micun Jokanovic, and he

2 informed me that I was to start on my work duty.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was waiting for the

4 witness to finish his sentence. I think this is an interpreting mistake.

5 Page 15, line 46, according to what I see here, it looks as if his

6 relative spoke to Micun Jokanovic, whereas the case actually is that Micun

7 Jokanovic passed on this message.

8 JUDGE HUNT: That may be the case but what do you suggest he

9 said? That's what the transcript reflects.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness said that his relative

11 came to the village and told him, the witness, that Micun Jokanovic had

12 asked him to invite him to come down and assume his work duty.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the interpreter apologises

14 but the witness is speaking in a very convoluted manner and is almost

15 incomprehensible.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, we just got the interpreter conceding

17 that she is having some difficulty in following the way in which

18 Mr. Krnojelac is answering the questions.

19 Perhaps, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the simplest way would be to ask him

20 what it was the relative said, the relative who lived in the adjacent

21 house, and let him start again.


23 Q. Your relative that lived in the adjacent house, he came to you and

24 told you that Mr. Micun Jokanovic had asked for you to come to the KP

25 Dom. Is that what -- is that what happened?

Page 6983













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Page 6984

1 A. That is how it all happened. My relative knew Micun Jokanovic and

2 the latter told my relative that I should go back to my work and that that

3 would be my work duty, my compulsory work order.

4 Q. Why would there be a -- you say -- you call it a compulsory work

5 order. Who gave you this compulsory work order? Did you receive anything

6 in writing?

7 A. I set out a few days after I was informed of this, and I reported

8 to my previous employer. I found Micun Jokanovic there. My brother

9 wasn't there. And he told me that he had been appointed director of the

10 Drina Economic Unit in order to turn the production around, in the

11 capacity of temporary warden.

12 Q. Sir, I was not actually asking about your brother. I was asking

13 about yourself. Did you get a written order or another order from

14 whatever institution, that you have to work in the KP Dom as your war

15 assignment or, as you put it, compulsory work order? Did you get

16 anything?

17 A. There was no written order. I didn't receive a written order.

18 Q. And when -- you said that it was in May 1992 that you reported and

19 had this conversation with Mr. Jokanovic. In the beginning of May or

20 later, do you recall?

21 A. That was my first arrival there. I can't remember exactly, but it

22 was in the first half of May.

23 Q. And it was Mr. Jokanovic who told you about the position of your

24 brother?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6985

1 Q. Your brother Milorad himself and the other family members never

2 mentioned that to you, that he was the temporary warden?

3 A. He said to me when I didn't find him, when I found Micun instead,

4 he was probably away somewhere in town, and when he came back, we got

5 together and he explained to me how he was appointed temporary warden of

6 the KP Dom.

7 Q. What did he explain?

8 A. He explained to me that he had been appointed so that we could

9 manage to jump-start the economic activity and especially the farm,

10 because we had some cattle there.

11 Q. Sir, Mr. Krnojelac, your brother Milorad, he became warden on the

12 18th of April, and you claim that for considerable time, you didn't know

13 about it, although you went to Cerezluk to bring food? It was never

14 mentioned?

15 A. I didn't get together with Milorad personally in those days

16 because I was busy with the sowing up there in my village.

17 Q. You told us that you occasionally went to Cerezluk to bring food,

18 and you met relatives, and no one ever mentioned it to you, that he was

19 the temporary warden? You had to hear it from someone who was not a

20 relative of you?

21 A. No. Nobody ever told me that.

22 Q. Sir, you know Mr. Todovic, Savo Todovic, right? He worked in the

23 KP Dom?

24 A. I know Savo. In fact, I know that Savo worked in the

25 rehabilitation service before the war. What his exact position was, I

Page 6986

1 don't know.

2 Q. And during the war, you don't know what his exact position was

3 during the war either, right?

4 A. Around the war, he occupied the position of lawyer.

5 Q. You don't know what he had to do exactly, because you were the

6 driver, right?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You mentioned that you and your family come from Birotici, the

9 Krnojelac family comes from Birotici, right?

10 A. Yes. I said we were born in Birotici, which is the village --

11 sorry, which is a hamlet, an integral part of Bunovi.

12 Q. What about your wife? Where does she come from?

13 A. My wife is from Mazoce. She's a farmer.

14 Q. And is that close to Birotici or is it in an entirely different

15 area?

16 A. That is in the direction of Stjepan Polje, but a little bit

17 higher, about two and a half hours on foot up a mountain.

18 Q. And you mentioned Zavait. Zavait is actually an entire area that

19 has the same name, right? It's not just one small place; it's a wider

20 area, correct?

21 A. I'm sorry. I did not understand the question.

22 Q. You spoke about Zavait, that your brother lived there for a while,

23 and I was asking you that Zavait is actually the name of an entire

24 region. It's not just a small hamlet; it's an entire region that is

25 called Zavait, right?

Page 6987

1 A. Every village in that Brod area has its own name. Those are

2 hamlets, and we outsiders call all of it Zavait.

3 Q. And you said it was very particular and that is how you remember

4 Zavait, that there is a certain tree growing there that is used for

5 furniture production; right? You mentioned the name of the tree.

6 A. It's a fir forest and there are also other conifers, such as birch

7 and others, and this timber is used by the Maglic company of Foca.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

9 show the witness a map. And I was just told that it is not into evidence

10 yet, so we would then like to enter this map into evidence.

11 Q. Sir, I think you had better look at the map in front of you first

12 to orient yourself. Look at the map first and orient yourself, and you

13 see there are three yellow stickers on the map so that you have a little

14 bit of help. Do you see the stickers, these little arrows, the red ones?

15 A. I see red stickers, but I cannot read the numbers. I cannot read

16 the letters, that is. I don't see well enough.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Let's put it on the ELMO. I will try

18 to ask you -- as you cannot actually read it, I will like to ask you --

19 it's a little bit difficult. Now, please put the directives so that we

20 can see all three --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, can you please speak into

22 the microphone.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Please put it so that we can see the

24 three arrows. It's really hard to see.

25 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid, as we do share the same age, I share the

Page 6988

1 disability. I cannot read the writing at all.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Okay. Give me -- can I have the map? I'll

3 try to ask questions without using the map.

4 Q. The area Bunovi that you mentioned, is it parallel to the Drina

5 River? Is it a mountain terrain on the right side of the Drina River,

6 above Brod?

7 A. Bunovi is indeed on the right side of the Drina River, near Foca,

8 but I can't remember the altitude. My altitude, as far as I remember, was

9 950 metres.

10 Q. And Birotici is also a location on a hill above -- even above

11 Bunovi. It's a continuation, right?

12 A. Birotici are parallel -- is parallel to Bunovi, but our personal

13 hamlet of Birotici is beneath -- is in the foot of a mountain, and I can't

14 remember the name of the mountain. That mountain, in my estimate, is

15 1.800 metres high.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I think it is important for the

19 credibility of the witness that it should not remain in the transcript

20 that he doesn't know the name of the mountain, because it says here, "I

21 can't remember the name of the mountain," and he said, "Actually, if you

22 want me, I'll say the name, Javorak, and that is 1.800 metres high." I'm

23 really sorry to interrupt and slow down this examination, but I do have to

24 make certain corrections.

25 JUDGE HUNT: You say he did mention the name of the mountain?

Page 6989













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Page 6990

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. The witness exactly said, "My

2 village is beneath a mountain. If necessary, I'll mention its name," and

3 then he added, "Javorak, which is 1.800 metres high," and the transcript

4 recorded something entirely different.

5 JUDGE HUNT: You can clear it up, I think, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think we can use -- we can give another map

7 a try. It's actually the map that Mr. Masovic made. The exhibit number

8 is 55/1. If we put it on the ELMO --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is the right spot, but you can focus

11 more so that we can see the area between the numbers 10 and 9 best.

12 Stop.

13 Q. Sir, I wonder if this is now big enough for you to see. There is

14 a circle with the number 8. You see that circle, this red circle, with

15 the number 8? Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you see the Drina River indicated in this circle?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Yes. And next to the Drina River where the red circle goes

20 through, you see Bunovi, right? Do you see the word "Bunovi"? If you

21 follow from the number 20 -- you see the number 20 in this circle, right?

22 A. I see it right over here.

23 Q. Yes. And when you follow this number 20 a little bit down along

24 the Drina River and you go to the right side, you see a word. That's

25 Bunovi. That's the location of Bunovi, right?

Page 6991

1 A. It doesn't seem very legible. I can't see it. I can't read it.

2 But that is where Bunovi should be.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Your Honour, I think -- can you see

4 Bunovi? I think it's --

5 JUDGE HUNT: I make no admissions, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


7 Q. So you see now it's very big. There is Bunovi above Brod. Yes.

8 Thank you. And now we move --

9 A. Now I see Bunovi. Now I see it.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And can the technical people move a little

11 bit down. Can you move -- no. Just the other way. Just the other way.

12 Now we have lost -- yes.

13 Q. And now do you see Birotici also? It's actually down --

14 A. I see it.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And now let's focus -- can we have now a

16 little bit broader? Can we see a little bit more? Because the third

17 location -- the third location is actually between the circles 10 and 8.

18 Could you focus in on this? Between 10 and 9, sorry.

19 A. Not now.

20 Q. Yes. Can you focus on the word Zavait?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Stop --

23 A. I can see it now. I can read.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Zavait, right? You see

25 Zavait, at the right-hand corner?

Page 6992

1 A. I see it, I see it.

2 Q. When -- sorry, not to focus -- please not so close, a little bit

3 further that we can see Birotici and Zavait. Yes. Thank you. If you

4 drive from Foca to Zavait, you follow this road over Bakic, right? You go

5 this road Bakic?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. And there is a crossing where there is a little street leading to

8 Birotici, right? When you drive to Zavait, you could easily get to

9 Birotici as well, right? You see this little street?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yes, thank you. That's enough with the maps.

12 A. It's a forest path.

13 Q. Yes. You say it's a forest path. It's a road, isn't it? It's a

14 kind of road? You can use a car, right?

15 A. A forest road. Not now.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand.

17 A. When the war broke out, the road was damaged, and only while logs

18 were being taken out it still worked, but now, no.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, there is a correction. I just

20 was told the map that we used was -- and that is the Masovic map, is

21 240/1. It was not correct. And we would only enter this -- this is

22 already in evidence. We wouldn't need the other map because we couldn't

23 really use it, so ...

24 Q. Sir, during the war, you would sometimes drive to Zavait to get

25 wood, didn't you, for the KP Dom?

Page 6993

1 A. I, to Zavait? I didn't drive anything to Zavait during the war,

2 because, for our purposes, nothing was necessary nor was there anything to

3 be brought.

4 Q. Sir, I didn't ask you if you brought something to Zavait. I asked

5 you if you took something from there, and that is in particularly wood for

6 the furniture factory.

7 A. From Zavait?

8 Q. Right. Yes.

9 A. Is your question from Zavait?

10 Q. Yes. My question was actually, during the war, you occasionally

11 drove to Zavait to get -- to take wood to the KP Dom from there. That was

12 my question.

13 A. No. I did not.

14 Q. Muslims -- Muslim detainees went with you to load the wood, isn't

15 that correct?

16 A. No, it's not.

17 Q. And on your way, you at least on one occasion stopped in Birotici

18 because it's just a side trip, a side trip, right?

19 A. First of all, this road that is on the map cannot lead to my house

20 from Zavait, nor from my house to Zavait. That was a high road, a forest

21 road, for taking wood out before the war and a lot earlier than that.

22 When the timber was cut up, then the road was finished too.

23 Q. What do you call a high road? A road -- the road from Foca to

24 Zavait, is that what you call a high road?

25 A. No. The altitude of the road from my house is different. This

Page 6994

1 road does not link Birotici, our village. It passes above Birotici. It

2 is at zero level there. That is to say, it doesn't lead anywhere else

3 from there, not the village but the forest.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I have to use

5 this map 240/1 again. We would need it -- for the technical people, we

6 would need the same position as before so that we can see Birotici and

7 Zavait. Please focus in between the circles 9 and 10. Yes, stop.

8 Q. Sir, you see this road from -- going to Zavait, and you see this

9 little crossing below Bakic or above -- above Bakic, when we take this

10 card. There is a road?

11 A. I see it.

12 Q. So can you explain why this road --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- doesn't lead to Birotici, although it is in there in the map?

15 A. This road does not lead to the village of Birotici. It is a road

16 that was made before the war, a lot before the war. Only wood was taken

17 out, whereas we in Birotici have the road down there. As far as I can see

18 it's called Kopilovi and Kunduci.

19 Q. Can you please point out this other road that you're talking

20 about? Because I see actually only one road. Can you point it out on the

21 ELMO, please? Not on the screen. You have to do it on the ELMO, sir.

22 A. [Indicates] I can't see it there. It's this road here. From

23 Kopilovi and Kunduci here.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Could the usher maybe --

25 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, yes, I was going to suggest that

Page 6995













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Page 6996

1 the usher can reproduce what he's pointing at on the screen, he can

2 reproduce on the ELMO.


4 Q. Sir, would you please put your finger on the road that you were

5 talking about, on the screen so that the usher can show it on the ELMO?

6 Please put your finger on the road that you were talking about.

7 A. [Indicates] Here, here.

8 Q. The witness --

9 A. It's a provisional road that we made with a little bulldozer so

10 that only small cars could pass, so that our village could communicate

11 that way. This road was closed 20 years ago. Not closed, but actually

12 it's inaccessible.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the witness earlier said that the

14 road he was referring to went through two towns and he named them.

15 Unfortunately, the transcript has yet to check them. If you could get the

16 names again from him, we may be able to identify it on this plan.


18 Q. Sir, can you tell us the two villages that you had to go through

19 to get to Birotici? You mentioned it before but we haven't got the

20 names. What are the names of the two villages that you pass through to

21 get to Birotici?

22 A. Kopilovi is the name.

23 Q. And the other name you also said --

24 A. By the Drina.

25 Q. The witness actually is pointing on this little interrupted line

Page 6997

1 combining a road --

2 A. That's it.

3 Q. Yes. Along the Drina river through Kopilovi to Birotici?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Okay. Now we have it. Thank you. And actually you mentioned

6 three possibilities to get to Birotici. What are the other two?

7 A. I'm sorry, I can barely hear you. Can you put the volume up a

8 bit?

9 Q. You have to do that at your desk.

10 A. No. This is too loud.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Would you, please, usher, would you please

12 put the map slightly different so that we can also see Foca? Just move it

13 a little bit down. Stop, yes.

14 Q. I repeat my question. You mentioned earlier that there are

15 actually three possibilities to get to Birotici, and you have pointed out

16 one. What are the other two ways to get to Birotici? Can you point it

17 out on the map again?

18 A. I mentioned paths for walking, not roads for vehicles.

19 Q. You see Dragocava on the map. Do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And there is also an interrupted line leading from Dragocava --

22 about approximately Dragocava to Birotici. Is that a foot path or could

23 you go there with a truck?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And the third way to get to Birotici? You mentioned three ways.

Page 6998

1 A. Paths for walking. As for cars, as I mentioned, that's the road

2 from Drina towards Kopilovi. That's about four kilometres of curves and

3 it goes way up.

4 Q. This road that is indicated between Birotici and the road that

5 leads to Zavait, you can use it with trucks, can't you?

6 A. They could go before but now they can't. They used to be able to,

7 15 years ago.

8 Q. What about 1992?

9 A. No.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. We don't need the...

11 Q. Sir, there is a barrel maker in Foca, right, a cooper, do you

12 know?

13 A. No.

14 Q. There is a cooper near the Orthodox cemetery in Foca, near

15 Cerezluk. You do not know that?

16 A. Could you repeat your question? I didn't understand it.

17 Q. There is a cooper who makes barrels near the Orthodox cemetery in

18 Foca, right?

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] In order for you to get the right

20 impression of the witness, we just got an interpretation now of this word

21 "cooper." We did not get an interpretation of the word "cooper." We got

22 it just now and that's when he started answering.

23 JUDGE HUNT: I think you'll find that earlier on, there was, if it

24 was interpreted correctly, the first question after we put the map away

25 was, "There is a barrel maker in Foca, right, a cooper, do you know?"

Page 6999

1 It's a very old English word, I should hasten to add, "cooper." Do you

2 say that was not translated in that way? Well, certainly, thank you very

3 much.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I have it from a transcript

5 where a witness referred to this. Therefore I used the same wording.

6 JUDGE HUNT: I remember, when it was used, thinking that's a good

7 old English word.


9 Q. So now you heard the question. You are aware that there is a

10 barrel maker near the Orthodox cemetery in Foca, a cooper?

11 A. I am not aware of that, that there is a cooper near the Orthodox

12 cemetery in Foca.

13 Q. But it's your neighbourhood, isn't it?

14 A. Yes. Not my neighbourhood. It is -- I mean, that neighbourhood

15 is further off. I mean, the cemetery is about two kilometres away.

16 Q. The Orthodox cemetery is frequented by the Serbs from Cerezluk;

17 right? You also go there, don't you?

18 A. I do, when necessary, by car.

19 Q. And in summer 1993, you actually took a barrel from this cooper,

20 didn't you? You loaded it on a truck.

21 A. No barrel did I load onto a truck, nor do I know where this barrel

22 maker is.

23 Q. Do you still have this piece of paper, this P456? The persons

24 listed under 73 and the son of number 249, they were with you and they

25 loaded the barrel and they unloaded it; isn't that the truth?

Page 7000

1 A. That is not the truth.

2 Q. And when they -- please.

3 A. [redacted], that is to say, 242 [as interpreted], I did not

4 travel in a car to load anything, barrels, whatever; nothing. As for 73,

5 I don't even know that one at all.

6 Q. Sir, I didn't ask you about the number 249; I asked you about the

7 son of 249 being with you on this occasion.

8 A. I don't even know him.

9 Q. And you, on this occasion when the barrel was unloaded by these

10 Muslim detainees, you had this conversation with a neighbour about your

11 brother taking the position in the KP Dom and that you disapproved of

12 this; isn't that the truth?

13 A. First of all, they could not unload a barrel, because I did not

14 drive one, nor do I know anything about a barrel or about its unloading.

15 Q. Sir, you said you do not know the person 73.

16 A. No.

17 Q. [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 A. First of all, I did not stop by, nor did I have the time to go to

20 cafes, because I was very busy with driving and work. For two or three

21 days -- I did not return to Foca two or three days at a time. I would get

22 very tired and then I would hurry home to take a bath, to pull myself

23 together, and to be with my family.

24 Q. Let's talk about your brother's position in the KP Dom. You

25 personally found and still find it unwise that your brother took this

Page 7001













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7002

1 position as the warden, right? You think it's wrong, he shouldn't have

2 done that, right?

3 A. I do not think that he shouldn't have done it at all, because we

4 were all aware that something could get going in respect of the economy.

5 Q. I have to clarify something with you. It says in the English

6 translation we heard that you said, "I do not think that he shouldn't have

7 done it at all." That is a double negative, so --

8 JUDGE HUNT: I think it's an appropriate one, though,

9 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. You asked him: Didn't he think that he shouldn't

10 have done it. And he's saying: No, I didn't think that he shouldn't have

11 done it. He's disagreeing with the proposition you put to him. It can't

12 be read as a positive.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Okay. Then I was wrong. Thank you.

14 Q. You knew that he was a teacher and he did not have the skill and

15 the experience to run an economic unit, and also not a prison, right? You

16 knew that.

17 A. I knew that he was a teacher and that his virtues, qualities match

18 everything, and that he had people there he worked with for years and he

19 sought agreement with them and he got quite a bit going. Considering the

20 times, he managed to do something, in view of the fact that war had

21 brought about a lot of damage.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 4.00.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Now, we received information that the audiovisual

24 technical staff are still working on the audiovisual link, or videolink,

25 that they are presently attempting to obtain a part that apparently has

Page 7003

1 broken down, and there is at least some hope that we'll be able to proceed

2 with the videolink tomorrow. However, in the event that they have not

3 been able to fix it, I suggest we should be here with all the witnesses,

4 ready to go with the witnesses here, in the unhappy event that they have

5 not been able to fix the videolink.

6 We'll resume again tomorrow at 9.30.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 7th day of June,

9 2001, at 9.30 a.m.