Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7463

1 Thursday, 14 June 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Before we start, I just want to say something about

10 the final briefs. I understand that both parties have expressed some

11 concern to the Trial Chamber staff about what we expect. What we do not

12 expect is the mammoth final briefs that seem to have become obligatory in

13 these trials. That was the whole purpose of the practice direction:

14 reducing their size.

15 You need not think that we will look only at the final brief when

16 we come to write the judgement. What we want in the final brief are your

17 arguments, with references to the transcript. We don't want great

18 passages from the transcript set out unless there is some extraordinary

19 importance in a particular part of the transcript. All of our legal

20 officers and we have been here throughout the trial. We've heard the

21 trial. We don't want some general description of how the trial went. We

22 do not want anything that is in your pre-trial briefs as to the law

23 repeated. If you want to add to it, by all means. But what we need are a

24 set of propositions as to what your arguments are as to why a particular

25 count should be upheld or why it should be rejected, and then, preferably

Page 7464

1 in footnotes or in brackets, references to the name of the witness and the

2 transcript page and line so that we can go and look at it in the

3 transcript.

4 Your final briefs should be relatively short, unless you have an

5 extraordinary number of arguments. What we want, of course, is more

6 attention paid to your better arguments than to those which you put in for

7 the purposes of making an appeal point or something. Anyway, our

8 expectation that you are working busily on these briefs is not, I think,

9 an unfair one. We are indeed working busily on draft statements of what

10 we believe the law to be, which will, of course, will be amended if you

11 have something new to show to us.

12 Everybody is working on this at the same time as the trial is

13 running. I think that you can accept that we understand that counsel in a

14 trial have more to do than write final briefs. For those of us who have

15 been counsel, we understand only too well that the sitting hours are the

16 shortest part of counsel's work. But nevertheless, we have got some

17 limitations upon our availability. Thankfully, none of us will have to

18 leave on the 16th of November, but we want to be ready and available to

19 start new trials in September, because of the arrival then of the ad litem

20 Judges, and therefore, although we can't promise to have the judgement out

21 by then, we want to have all of our work done on it, or at least the great

22 bulk of our work done on the judgement before then. That is why we are

23 insisting upon you being ready to get your briefs in a very short time

24 after the evidence is concluded.

25 There's one further matter, whilst I'm on the progress of the

Page 7465

1 trial. We have an unfortunate scheduling clash on Monday, the 2nd of

2 July, if indeed this trial is sitting that week. We haven't yet worked

3 out what the break will be. On that day, we have to have a Status

4 Conference in another trial in order to comply with the Rules, and that

5 was the only date upon which we could get an agreement from counsel, who

6 come from widespread parts of the world. So that on that day, we will be

7 breaking from this trial at 10.30 a.m. and resuming at 12.00, so that the

8 Status Conference in this other case can be heard in that period.

9 However, we have yet to see whether we will be sitting in this case on

10 that day.

11 Now, Ms. Kuo.

12 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]

16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krnojelac.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. Yesterday I asked you about whether your father got a metal device

19 for you to exercise, and you said there wasn't. Did your father ever

20 work -- did your father ever get you a metal device for your wheelchair,

21 not for purposes of exercise, but to help you manoeuvre your wheelchair?

22 Do you remember your father helping you with that?

23 A. Absolutely not. What kind of device can move a wheelchair except

24 for my own hands and arms? I can't see any device doing that better than

25 my own hands and arms.

Page 7466

1 Q. Sir, we don't really need for you to have long comments like

2 that. Did your father ever help you at all in any sort of metal devices

3 as a result of your injury?

4 A. No, never.

5 Q. Sir, you live today in Foca, which has been renamed Srbinje;

6 right?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. When was Foca renamed Srbinje; do you remember?

9 A. I can't remember that. I'm sure it wasn't at the beginning. It

10 was only later. I don't know the date. It was at some municipal assembly

11 meeting. I really don't know about that. Until the present day, both

12 Foca and Srbinje are mentioned, so it's not the real name of Foca. Both

13 Foca and Srbinje have remained and both names are mentioned until the

14 present day.

15 Q. But Srbinje is the official name, right, on all official

16 documents?

17 A. Yes, until the joint authorities started functioning again. As

18 soon as the joint authorities started functioning again, then it was

19 returned. Both Foca and Srbinje are functional.

20 Q. When did the joint authority start functioning?

21 A. Immediately after the elections, after Dayton, as far as I know,

22 something like that. 1996, something like that.

23 Q. When Foca was renamed Srbinje before, you said, the joint

24 authorities started functioning, there was a celebration to mark the

25 renaming of the town; right?

Page 7467

1 A. I really don't know about that.

2 Q. You were in Foca this whole time, weren't you?

3 A. If I was in Foca -- I mean, I was at home more than I was outside,

4 and I don't have to know when each celebration is held in Foca. Now, I

5 know that on the 19th of May, the Slava of the town is celebrated, 19th or

6 20th of May. I'm not sure. That's the Slava that is celebrated by the

7 town.

8 Q. And on that day, the renaming of the town was also celebrated;

9 right?

10 A. Well, I don't know whether the celebration was on account of the

11 fact that the name of the town was changed, but the Slava is celebrated

12 for sure. First of all, please, people were not even asked about this

13 change of name. It is this municipal council and the assembly that did

14 that.

15 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you about that. I'm asking you very simple

16 questions and I expect some simple answers. Could you explain to us what

17 Slava is, for the benefit of the court, and what kind of celebration that

18 is.

19 A. Slava. We the Serb people have Slavas. You have Christmas; we

20 have Christmas. But we also have -- for example, my family celebrates

21 St. Nicholas, so we celebrate St. Nicholas Day. We have all these saints

22 who we celebrate: St. John, St. George, the day of St. George, the day of

23 St. John, and that's when we invite all of our friends over to our home.

24 Regardless of which ethnic group our friends belong to, we invite

25 everybody over to our house to celebrate with us. It's a kind of feast;

Page 7468

1 it's a kind of celebration. There's lots of food there and then there is

2 a special bread-like cake. That is part of our religion too. That's the

3 way it's been for centuries and that is what we carry on as well.

4 Q. Sir, you still haven't explained what a Slava is. Do you mean

5 Slava is the holiday, or what exactly is it on May 19th?

6 A. It's not a holiday for everyone. It is a holiday for the person

7 who celebrates a particular Slava. On the 19th of May, it is the town

8 that celebrates its Slava. And then they invite their friends and other

9 people from other towns. I really don't know how to explain this to you.

10 I'm not a theologian. I don't know exactly how to explain this to you,

11 and I don't know how to explain it in a different way.

12 JUDGE HUNT: I wonder, Ms. Kuo, whether it's a question of having

13 the word translated. "Slav," of course, incorporates the Serbs, and it

14 may be that it's the Serb -- turning it into a Serb town. I was trying to

15 think of the right verb there. It is difficult, I think, for somebody to

16 express it in a language for us to understand what it means. It may be

17 we'll have to ask the interpreters for their assistance in some official

18 way, if they can interpret it for us.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Patron Saint's Day. But it is always used in

20 the original, Slava spelled with a capital S.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Patron Saint's Day, we've been told by the

22 interpreters. Thank you very much, indeed.

23 MS. KUO: Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, we've now gotten an English translation. But I

25 would like to know, when you say the town of Foca celebrated its Slava on

Page 7469

1 May 19th, do you mean the town of Foca itself had a patron saint?

2 A. How should I know? I don't know.

3 Q. I'll move on. During the investigation into your father's case,

4 there was a defence investigator named Mr. Dundjer who was assisted by the

5 wife of your cousin, Rada Sestovic-Krnojelac; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And when they were preparing to help your father with his defence,

8 you also helped them by locating witnesses and documents; right?

9 A. Well, it wasn't only me. It was the entire family that was

10 involved, that is to say, my brothers, my mother. Everybody was

11 involved. It wasn't only me.

12 Q. You were the person who was able to obtain the Red Cross document

13 that we looked at yesterday; right? For the record, that's D138.

14 A. I explained how I obtained that document. I can repeat it if you

15 wish.

16 Q. You do not need to repeat it. You mentioned that a friend helped

17 you get that document. What capacity did your friend have that he had

18 access to such a document?

19 A. An ordinary person from Bileca. I don't know how he obtained it,

20 I really don't know. I just know that one day he brought it to me and

21 that I immediately sent it to the lawyers by fax.

22 Q. This wasn't something that any normal person could get; right? I

23 mean, Mr. Dundjer himself couldn't get it. He needed you, through your

24 friend, to locate this document.

25 A. I said that I was complaining to my friend about the fact that we

Page 7470

1 could not obtain this material, and he said that he would try, that he

2 would try, and he succeeded in doing that. How he succeeded in doing

3 that, I don't know.

4 Q. What position does your friend hold?

5 A. I tell you, he's an ordinary man. He doesn't hold any big

6 position. He's an ordinary worker.

7 Q. What I'd like to know, and I think what would be of interest in

8 this court, is how that document was located through your friend. If we

9 don't know that, somebody could have just made up the document. How can

10 you tell us the document was a real document?

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I think that the Prosecution counsel

14 has not objected to the authenticity of this document. I don't know why

15 this witness is being asked about assumptions as to whether somebody could

16 have fabricated it or not. I don't think that this is a question that

17 should be allowed. The authenticity of this document has not been

18 questioned in any way. There was no objection, and now this witness is

19 being asked to say whether somebody could have just made it up.

20 JUDGE HUNT: That's not what the witness is being asked,

21 Mr. Bakrac. It was the explanation for the need for an inquiry. But as

22 you say, it would be relevant only if there was a challenge to the

23 authenticity of the document.

24 Is there such a challenge?

25 MS. KUO: It's a question of weight, Your Honour. Of course, the

Page 7471













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7472

1 document is there and it's the way it is. But a question of how it was

2 obtained would certainly be relevant to whether it can be relied upon.

3 JUDGE HUNT: But the weight to be afforded to it in the way you

4 are suggesting is that it is false, which means it's not authentic.

5 MS. KUO: Yes, in a roundabout way.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I don't think you can be roundabout about

7 this. Either you accept it as an authentic document and then challenge

8 the weight of it because it's secondhand or thirdhand or something, but so

9 far there's been no challenge to the fact that it is a Red Cross, if

10 that's so. I frankly don't remember. There were so many of these

11 documents that went in.

12 MS. KUO: Your Honour, we didn't challenge its admissibility and

13 the fact that it may be a Red Cross document. But who prepared it, who

14 had access to it, whether the contents are reliable are a different issue.

15 JUDGE HUNT: That's not the way you explained it to the witness,

16 and I think that the objection that is taken is probably a good one if

17 that is what you wanted to obtain from this witness. But if you want to

18 proceed upon the basis it is a Red Cross document but nevertheless the

19 information that it contains was influenced by the person who obtained it,

20 then this is a very proper question.

21 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. That is the direction of my question.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, in that case, Mr. Bakrac, I think the

23 question is admissible. But the witness is not being asked to make

24 assumptions, and I hope he won't answer it as if he were being asked. He

25 does have a tendency to go on and on because he wants to explain the

Page 7473

1 answer in a way which he sees to be relevant but which is not really

2 relevant to the question. But the point you made was a good one

3 otherwise.

4 Yes, Ms. Kuo.

5 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. And my main point is that the

6 witness has expressed a reluctance to tell us how he obtained the

7 document, in what way his friend obtained it, and so that's why I'm trying

8 to let him know why it's important.

9 JUDGE HUNT: That's right. And so far as I'm concerned, that is

10 an appropriate means of cross-examination.

11 MS. KUO: Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you've heard our discussion. I don't want you to

13 make any assumptions, but can you tell us how your friend received this

14 document, through what connections? And if you don't know, simply say you

15 don't know. We don't need an explanation.

16 A. I have to explain this to you. I know how difficult it is to

17 obtain such documents, and my friend actually asked me not to give his

18 name, so I absolutely could not have got the document had I not promised

19 that I would not give his name. These are such controversial matters. A

20 person could lose his job, whatever. This document came from Trebinje,

21 again from a friend of his. I don't know whether he works there or not.

22 I don't know. I don't know whether he has connections at the

23 International Red Cross. I don't know about that either. But they really

24 asked me not to give their names, and I promised I would not disclose

25 their identity.

Page 7474

1 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, the document that you were shown yesterday

2 regarding Bota, you said you had never, ever seen that document before; is

3 that right?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. But you were the one who directed Mr. Dundjer where to get it;

6 right?

7 A. That's right. I directed Mr. Dundjer to the command, and I called

8 a man there who gives certificates concerning wounding, and my brother

9 went with him. Whether they went directly to the command or not, I don't

10 know. As far as I know, he was sent there to get it there. Where he got

11 it, I don't know.

12 Q. In addition to locating documents, you also helped locate

13 witnesses and had them brought to the Cafe Gong, where they were

14 interviewed; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In fact, you were present during some of those interviews; right?

17 A. No, I was not present during a single interview.

18 Q. Not at all?

19 A. Well, I would just phone a man. I would ask him whether he wanted

20 to talk to the investigator. He would say yes or no, and then I'd say,

21 "Would you come to Cafe Uno," because my brother Spomenko was always

22 there. No, not Uno. I made a mistake. Gong. Gong is in the house. Uno

23 is my cafe, so I keep saying "Cafe Uno." It's really Cafe Gong. Spomenko

24 works in that cafe. So if they would agree to come, he would meet them

25 there and he would take them to sort of a separate area where a fireplace

Page 7475

1 is, and that's where Mrs. Rada Krnojelac was and Mr. Dundjer. So I was

2 not present during the meetings with witnesses.

3 Q. You actually called witnesses to ask them to talk to the

4 investigators, right, witnesses that you thought would be helpful to your

5 father?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Sir, you've been following the proceedings in this case; right?

8 A. Well, to the extent to which I could.

9 Q. And some of the proceedings are actually broadcast, and so you're

10 able to watch the witnesses testifying; right?

11 A. I think it is so -- how should I put this? What was broadcast was

12 against -- was only what was against my father. Whatever facts spoke in

13 favour of my father were not broadcast. On our television, in this

14 programme about The Hague, they only showed the facts that spoke against

15 him, but nobody mentioned any facts that spoke in his favour, and I

16 believe that there must have been such facts as well. Now, whether it's

17 some television manipulating things this way, whatever, that's at any rate

18 what we saw on television in Srbinje, and we watch the

19 Bosnian-Herzegovinian television.

20 Q. And watching the television, you're able to hear what the

21 Prosecution witnesses have alleged against your father; right?

22 A. Well, I could, on the basis of what I saw, what was broadcast, and

23 I didn't even manage to see everything that was broadcast. I simply

24 didn't manage to.

25 Q. Regarding the Defence case, you have been in regular contact with

Page 7476

1 the Defence investigators and perhaps even the lawyers; right? Someone

2 has been telling you about what the Defence witnesses are able to present

3 in favour of your father.

4 A. Well, all of those who agreed to talk also made statements.

5 Q. And you're aware what is in the statements by those people; right?

6 A. No, I didn't read the statements. Rada Krnojelac can know. She

7 is my sister-in-law. And Dundjer.

8 Q. Even though you didn't read the statements themselves, you know

9 basically what they had to say in favour of your father, right, the basic

10 content?

11 A. Well, how could I know that? They probably spoke of what they

12 know, what they know, what happened.

13 Q. You told us that sometimes you called up people to ask them to

14 testify in favour of your father. Therefore, one can only conclude from

15 that --

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness did not say that he

19 called people to testify in favour of his father. He said that he called

20 people and asked them whether they wanted to testify and whether they

21 wanted to talk to the representatives of the Defence. After all, I would

22 like to recall -- I mean, I don't know where this is going. I would like

23 to recall the first motion ruling passed by the Honourable Judge Mumba

24 that the Defence has the possibility, with a view to providing defence, of

25 discussing certain things with family matters. I cannot exactly quote the

Page 7477

1 decision, because I really did not expect such questions.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, there is no suggestion of impropriety in

3 the question. It's a perfectly proper path of investigation by the

4 Prosecution in order for us to judge what weight to be placed upon the

5 evidence which is produced. There's nothing wrong with you talking to

6 members of the family, and the question does not suggest that there was

7 anything improper. But as to the basis of your objection, may I take you

8 back to the question asked at page 12, line 13, and the question was:

9 "Regarding the Defence case, you have been in regular contact with the

10 Defence investigators, and perhaps even the lawyers; right? Someone has

11 been telling you about what the Defence witnesses are able to present in

12 favour of your father." Answer: "Well, all of those who agreed to talk

13 also made statements."

14 Now, there's nothing wrong with the question. If there has been a

15 misinterpretation of that question and answer, then the witness can deal

16 with it. But you can't object to the question, because that is a clear

17 suggestion that they were the ones who were in favour of your father. It

18 is, if I may say so, a little unreal to imagine that this witness will be

19 bringing along people to give evidence other than those who will give

20 evidence in favour of your client. I don't see what the point of your

21 objection is.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I agree. Everything

23 that you have said is correct. However, if the witness said that he

24 called people and asked them whether they wanted to testify, I think it is

25 wrong to ask him the following way: You said that you were calling people

Page 7478













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7479

1 who would testify in order to help your father.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I see nothing wrong with it, Mr. Bakrac, and I think

3 you are, if I may say so, being far too sensitive, far, far too sensitive,

4 and I wish you would allow the cross-examination to proceed without

5 constant interruptions about matters because you are concerned about

6 things that really are not there.

7 You proceed, please, Ms. Kuo.

8 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, nobody is saying that it was improper for you to

10 have contact with Defence investigators or the lawyers, and you've told us

11 that you actually spoke to some of the people, that you took the

12 initiative to speak to people who might be able to help your father. So

13 my question is: You knew the kinds of information that they would be able

14 to provide to help your father, right, otherwise you wouldn't have called

15 them?

16 A. I didn't know absolutely who would say what. I called them to

17 talk to Mr. Dundjer and Mrs. Rada. So I absolutely did not know what

18 those people would say, nor did I expect them to go one way or the other.

19 And they came and talked to the lawyers. They said what they knew and

20 gave their statements, which you have probably received here.

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, surely you did not call everybody in Foca to see if

22 they had information relevant to this case; right? You only called a

23 certain number of people.

24 A. Well, if I had called all of Foca, you would have had 20.000

25 people here in The Hague.

Page 7480

1 Q. That's my point. You called a certain number of people whom you

2 knew had certain information; right?

3 A. They were not certain information; just the truth that the people

4 said.

5 Q. You didn't call the people who had something to say against your

6 father, because you were trying to help your father; right? I mean,

7 you're not calling people who can say what your father did if that would

8 result in his being convicted; right? That wasn't your purpose.

9 A. You see, we could conduct a survey in Foca, and I can guarantee

10 that 99 per cent of the people in Foca would have a positive opinion of my

11 father. Of course, every individual has enemies, and those account for 1

12 per cent.

13 Q. Sir, we're not asking about polls and we're not asking about

14 opinions. The simple question is: You called the people to come speak to

15 Defence investigators whom you thought could help your father; right?

16 It's a very simple question. Please don't make it more complicated.

17 A. I'm not trying to complicate things. Normally -- it's normal that

18 I should have called those people.

19 Q. It's normal because you love your father very much; right?

20 A. More than anyone else in the world.

21 Q. You would do whatever you could to make sure that he gets

22 acquitted so he can go home; right?

23 A. He should be acquitted anyway. And I would just like to reach the

24 truth, nothing but the truth. Only the truth.

25 Q. You'd like to see your father home; right?

Page 7481

1 A. Of course I would, because that's where he should be.

2 MS. KUO: No further questions.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Mr. Bakrac.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I shall be

5 very brief, and I'll just wait for a moment.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Are you all right to go on, sir? I can assure you

7 it's not going to be very long now.

8 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I can.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understood your hint

11 and I'm really going to be brief.

12 JUDGE HUNT: It wasn't a hint, Mr. Bakrac. But re-examination,

13 except perhaps Mr. Vasic's the other day, should usually be pretty short.

14 Re-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I'll just ask you in reference to the last

16 part of the cross-examination: Did you call up people linked to the KP

17 Dom or who worked in the KP Dom because you assumed they could say

18 something about it?

19 A. Yes, predominantly them, those that had some connections to the KP

20 Dom, and the people that I knew had worked with my father.

21 Q. Did you call up people who knew your father well and who could say

22 something about his character?

23 A. Precisely so.

24 Q. My learned friend asked you yesterday why you stayed at home until

25 the 11th when the shooting started on the 8th. Was there any shooting on

Page 7482

1 the 9th and the 10th?

2 A. I think I said that it was relatively quiet. There may have been

3 a shot here and there, but there wasn't any heavy fire. I think I

4 explained that at the beginning. Because later we heard that a group from

5 the Serb side and another group from the Muslim side were about to

6 negotiate some kind of a peace settlement, and we had really hoped that

7 that would come. That is why we stayed around and waited on the 9th and

8 10th. We didn't know how long it would last. On the 11th, when the

9 shooting started from all sides, we simply had to go.

10 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you said that you left without taking

11 anything with you and that some people gave you clothing. Do you know

12 whether your late uncle gave something to your father?

13 A. As far as I can remember, he gave him an olive-grey shirt as part

14 of the old uniform. As far as I can remember, he gave him a set of

15 underwear, trousers, shoes, and a jacket, because I was supposed to put it

16 on when I was supposed to get married. My marriage, my wedding had been

17 planned with my girlfriend at the end of June, but I didn't manage to

18 arrive on time.

19 Q. So if I understood you correctly, you were supposed to put on the

20 jacket that your father was given for your own wedding?

21 A. Yes, that is right.

22 Q. Yesterday, in answer to a question from my learned friend -- no,

23 let me ask you first: When you were transported by helicopter to Belgrade

24 on the 23rd, were you operated on immediately?

25 A. Yes. As soon as I got off the helicopter and was admitted to the

Page 7483

1 VMA, my left leg was operated. I had gangrene; it had to be operated

2 immediately.

3 Q. Were you able to see who was hospitalised in the VMA?

4 A. No. I was in intensive care, I said that.

5 Q. My learned friend asked you when you arrived in Belgrade on the

6 23rd of June, was Bota already there and you said, "I don't know." Does

7 that mean that you don't know whether he was there or you're claiming that

8 he wasn't?

9 A. I really don't know whether he was or not. I was in intensive

10 care for 15 days and I never left it, so I can't know whether he was

11 there.

12 Q. In answer to a question by my learned friend yesterday, you said

13 that you don't know the exact date when he was wounded. Let me ask you

14 now: Do you know, since you said that you don't know when exactly he was

15 wounded, do you know whether he was wounded before you or after you? Do

16 you know that?

17 A. Before me, that's for sure. Two or three days before me. I don't

18 know exactly. I know that he was wounded, but I don't know the exact

19 date, though I did see the date when I saw the certificate that was given

20 to me by the lady. So now I do know the date.

21 Q. Yes, we understand that. But you said you don't know the exact

22 date. I'm just asking whether his wounding occurred before you were

23 wounded, on the day you were wounded, or after that?

24 A. I was wounded on the 22nd of June and he was wounded before me.

25 Q. Do you know where he was wounded? The location, not the place of

Page 7484

1 his injury.

2 A. The main road that goes from Foca to Dubrovnik, via Tjentiste,

3 Gacko, Bileca, there were many ambushes and people were killed. This

4 ambush was where a road branches off for the village of Vrbica. This is

5 about 20 to 25 kilometres from Tjentiste on the Foca-Dubrovnik road.

6 Q. Do you know where this is exactly?

7 A. It's a kind of junction where the road branches off for Vrbica.

8 There's a village up there; I just can't remember the name of it.

9 Q. Is that the same road on which you were wounded?

10 A. No. When you go to Tjentiste, there's a road going to Kosur. So

11 from this crossroads to Kosur, it's about 20 to 25 kilometres away. I was

12 wounded about ten kilometres on the way to Kosur, and it's a hill

13 overlooking the village, as I said.

14 Q. So if I understand you correctly, between the place where Bota was

15 wounded and where you were wounded, the distance is some 20/25 kilometres

16 plus another ten kilometres. So the distance is about 30 or 35 kilometres

17 between those two places.

18 A. Yes, roughly that.

19 Q. And that's not on the same road?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Yesterday, my learned friend asked you about the apartments used

22 by Muslims, whether your brother Spomenko, your mother and you -- your

23 mother and father and you, whether you stayed in those apartments. Don't

24 repeat, please. My question is: Were you the only people who were given

25 Muslim apartments for temporary use, or were there other people in Foca?

Page 7485













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7486

1 A. There were ever so many. In fact, I think to this day there are

2 some 500 people living in Muslim apartments on the basis of temporary

3 decisions issued by the executive council. It's not a permanent right

4 that you could stay there for as long as you liked. It's only permission

5 to stay until the people who used to live in them come back. So as soon

6 as they come back, you have to move out, leave the apartment in the

7 condition that you got it in, as soon as the original tenants come back.

8 Q. You said that there were more than 500 people still. Are these

9 all people whose houses were burnt down or who had fled from their homes?

10 A. Yes. There are many refugees and people whose houses had been

11 destroyed.

12 Q. You said that in the metalwork shop you addressed Relja Goljanin

13 to repair some shelves for you. Would you tell me what year that was in?

14 A. In 1994.

15 Q. What month; can you remember?

16 A. Well, I think it was May or maybe later. I don't know for sure.

17 It could be later, because in August, late in August, I opened the shop.

18 So it could have been later. But it was certainly in 1994.

19 Q. Was your father in the KP Dom, holding any kind of position in the

20 KP Dom then?

21 A. I think he had no job at all. He was unemployed again.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The Defence

23 has no further questions.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence here. You are

25 now free to leave.

Page 7487

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I just want to correct an error I made

4 yesterday during the cross-examination regarding the document that has

5 been referred to regarding Bota's injuries. At one point I showed a

6 document to the witness and the court inquired about it, and I said that

7 that document had not been entered in evidence. In fact, it has. It was

8 entered by the Defence investigator. That's ID D141, which has the date

9 when Bota was injured.

10 JUDGE HUNT: So it now has an exhibit marking D141.

11 MS. KUO: Yes, it is D141, but I thought it had not, but in fact

12 we double-checked and it has been entered. Thank you.

13 JUDGE HUNT: My concern is only that if these things have been

14 overlooked, there may be an argument later as to whether some document is

15 in evidence because it was cross-examined on.

16 MS. KUO: Of course.

17 JUDGE HUNT: That's my only concern, is to try and keep the record

18 straight.

19 MS. KUO: That's why I'm bringing this up, so that the record is

20 straight.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you for telling us that, Ms. Kuo.

22 Now, the next witness, Mr. Bakrac.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the next witness is

24 Mrs. Slavica Krnojelac.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Do you expect the evidence in chief to take very

Page 7488

1 long?

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I believe it will

3 not take long at all. I don't think there is any need for any lengthy

4 examination. Just a few points that the Defence feels it should raise.

5 JUDGE HUNT: I was rather alarmed at the estimate given in your

6 list of witnesses, that was all. Do you think we'll finish here today?

7 That's all I was thinking of.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you would be kind

9 enough to assist me, I really don't remember what our estimate was for

10 this witness.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Two and a half hours in chief.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I think we'll half it. Maybe even

13 more than that.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE HUNT: Now, madam, will you please make the solemn

17 declaration in the document that the usher is showing you.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, Ms. Krnojelac.

23 Mr. Bakrac.

24 Examined by Mr. Bakrac:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, madam.

Page 7489

1 A. Good morning.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The ELMO is in my way, so could

3 perhaps the booth wind it down, please. Thank you.

4 Q. Madam, from each witness we hear the words "good morning" and we

5 also address to them an indication that we speak the same language, so you

6 have to wait for a minute for my question to be interpreted before giving

7 your answer. If that will assist you, you have the screen in front of

8 you, and when you see the typing has been completed, you can start with

9 your answer. Am I right in concluding that you need your glasses?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But please, madam, concentrate more on your question. Just watch

12 it stop, that's all, because I see that you're staring at the screen and

13 I'm afraid you won't even hear what I'm saying. Tell me, please, your

14 name.

15 A. Slavica Krnojelac.

16 Q. When were you born?

17 A. On the 11th of July, 1942.

18 Q. Where were you born?

19 A. At Ilidza.

20 Q. When you say "Ilidza," where is that?

21 A. It's close to Sarajevo, the municipality of Ilidza.

22 Q. What ethnicity are you?

23 A. I'm a Croat.

24 Q. Our questions are brief and the interpreters are managing, but

25 you're answering me instantaneously. Just make this pause, please.

Page 7490

1 Are you married to Mr. Milorad Krnojelac?

2 A. Yes. We've been married for almost 40 years.

3 Q. Do you have children, and how many?

4 A. Four sons.

5 Q. Do you have grandchildren, and how many?

6 A. Yes. Nine.

7 Q. Have you had a criminal record or have you ever had any offences?

8 A. No, never. That is why I'm so uncomfortable. It is the first

9 time for me to be in a court of law.

10 Q. Could you tell us what is your occupation?

11 A. I was a teacher, and then afterwards I started working as a bank

12 employee.

13 Q. Since when have you been working in the bank?

14 A. Since 1978.

15 Q. In a particular bank in Foca?

16 A. Yes, in the Privredna Bank of Foca, or the Economic Bank of Foca.

17 Q. Are you still employed there?

18 A. Yes, I am.

19 Q. If I understand things correctly, you have been working in that

20 bank since 1978; you have not changed your job?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Immediately prior to the outbreak of the war in Foca, were you

23 working in that bank?

24 A. I was.

25 Q. I think there is no dispute that the war started on the 8th of

Page 7491

1 April. That's why I'm asking you: Do you remember the 8th of April, in

2 the morning, whether you went to work?

3 A. Yes, I went to work, but I came back after a short while.

4 Q. When you came back, who did you find at home?

5 A. I found my husband, who had also come back from work; my son also;

6 and the other two sons. Actually, I'm sorry. I'm a bit confused. One

7 son. And this other -- or rather, fourth son was in Sarajevo, as he was

8 studying there at the university.

9 Q. Which son was in Sarajevo?

10 A. Bogdan.

11 Q. And the other sons were in the house?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was anyone else there in addition to your sons?

14 A. In the house there was my oldest son's brother-in-law, because he

15 was working in the coffee bar which was on the ground floor of the house.

16 Q. How long did you stay in the house from the moment you came back

17 on the 8th?

18 A. The shooting started on the 8th, until noon or so; then there was

19 a lull; then in the afternoon there was more shooting. And then the next

20 day and the day after there was some kind of a ceasefire. The parties

21 apparently were trying to negotiate an agreement. However, after those

22 two or three days, the shooting resumed. I think this was around the

23 11th. I'm not quite sure, but sometime around then. The shooting started

24 again and it was intense. There's an abandoned elementary school near our

25 home, and we saw from our house that the Green Berets were grouping there,

Page 7492













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7493

1 and they were carrying some boxes, something wrapped in some sort of

2 sacks, and we were afraid that it would be dangerous to stay there.

3 Q. And what did you decide then?

4 A. As in the afternoon the shooting resumed, and just before darkness

5 the snow started falling and there was a fog, and as my oldest son's

6 brother-in-law happened to be there with his small car, Fica, Fiat, he

7 drove us in two groups to my brother-in-law's at Cerezluk.

8 Q. You said he made two trips. Who did he transport?

9 A. I forgot to mention that in the meantime, during those two days of

10 lull, the fiancee or girlfriend of my son's brother-in-law came and stayed

11 in our home, so that he, in one group, drove myself, my husband, and my

12 oldest son. Then the oldest son went back with him and picked up his

13 fiancee and my younger son.

14 Q. You said that you left in two groups, taking advantage of the

15 snowfall and the fog. Did you take anything with you from the house?

16 A. No. We thought that this would be brief and that some kind of

17 solution would eventually be found, and we just thought we'd spend that

18 one night there.

19 Q. If I understood you correctly, you said you went to your

20 brother-in-law's at Cerezluk, two brothers-in-law.

21 A. Yes. They share the same house.

22 Q. How long did you stay there in their home?

23 A. Well, we stayed in that house with them something like after the

24 20th. I'm afraid I can't tell you the exact date. I can't remember. You

25 can imagine in such situations one remembers only the most important dates

Page 7494

1 of events of significance to you personally.

2 Q. Let us just explain for the transcript. You said around the

3 20th. What month was that?

4 A. It was April. I'm sorry. Forgive me. We arrived in April, but

5 this was in May. We left in May.

6 Q. Where did you go in May?

7 A. We went to the collection centre - I don't know how I should call

8 it - for people whose houses had burnt down, who had to leave their homes,

9 and we went to the Zelengora Hotel.

10 Q. I was just going to ask you why you moved to the Zelengora Hotel.

11 Tell us, actually, what is the reason. Why did you go to the Zelengora

12 Hotel?

13 A. We went to the Zelengora Hotel because all the people whose houses

14 had been burnt down in town and from the surrounding villages came there,

15 because there was a kind of soup kitchen set up. And as my brother-in-law

16 has a large family and we had this opportunity to move there, we didn't

17 want to be an additional burden for them, so we were put up in the hotel.

18 Q. You said that you didn't want to be an additional burden to them,

19 and you also mentioned soup kitchens. Did you go there before you moved

20 to the hotel? Did you go to the soup kitchen even before you moved to the

21 hotel?

22 A. I did not, not before I moved.

23 Q. Who did?

24 A. I don't know. Maybe some of the children might have stopped by

25 there, but we spent most of our time up there while we were up there.

Page 7495

1 Q. Your house burnt down; is that right? Do you remember how and do

2 you remember the date and when you found out?

3 A. I remember that very well, because the house of my brothers-in-law

4 is on a hillock, so our house can be seen well from their terrace. So I

5 saw our house on fire and I was standing there and crying. It was very

6 hard to watch, something that you had created by giving up so many things,

7 you yourself and your children. Let me just say that my oldest son, when

8 he was about to graduate from high school, did not even go on his high

9 school excursion because he didn't want us to give any extra money for the

10 clothes that would have been involved. He thought that it was needed for

11 the house.

12 Q. During the war, or rather, when the war conflict broke out and

13 stopped, did you go on working at the bank?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Was that work obligation?

16 A. Yes, it was. I was given assignment papers on work obligation.

17 Q. When did you start working in the bank?

18 A. You mean after the conflict?

19 Q. Yes, I mean after the conflict.

20 A. Well, when the situation became normalised. Perhaps after seven

21 or eight days, when all operations in town stopped.

22 Q. Can you tell us how long you stayed at the Zelengora Hotel? You

23 said that you moved around the 20th of May. How long did you stay there?

24 A. We stayed at the hotel, well, perhaps until August, mid-August. I

25 can't remember exactly, because a great misfortune occurred which

Page 7496

1 afflicted us all so badly. The date of this misfortune remains in my

2 memory for the rest of my life.

3 Q. Madam, let us not discuss everything at great length. But since

4 you mentioned this great misfortune, who had this accident? Was it only

5 one son? Can you tell us?

6 A. No. On the 22nd of June, two of our sons had an accident, and

7 also one son of my brother-in-law. It was my eldest and youngest son. Do

8 you want me to give all the names?

9 Q. Please do.

10 A. Spomenko and Bozidar.

11 Q. Tell us, please, where were they treated?

12 A. First they were taken to the hospital, the medical centre in Foca,

13 and then the next day, they were transferred by helicopter to the VMA in

14 Belgrade.

15 Q. Did you come along to Belgrade as well, and with whom?

16 A. Not by helicopter. Only medical staff took the helicopter.

17 Q. I was not referring to the helicopter. Did you just go to

18 Belgrade? When and with whom?

19 A. We went on the 24th, in the morning, because we received

20 information that Bozidar's other leg had also been amputated. So that did

21 it, and we wanted to go and be with him during these hardest moments of

22 all.

23 Q. When you arrived in Belgrade, was your youngest son's life in

24 danger, and what was the condition of your oldest son?

25 A. When we arrived in Belgrade, our youngest son Bozidar was in a

Page 7497

1 very serious condition, and my oldest son had already had an operation

2 performed on his eardrums, because the explosion had affected his

3 eardrums. He also had quite a bit of shrapnel in his head and body.

4 Q. When you said "when we arrived," what did you mean by that? Who

5 arrived in Belgrade?

6 A. Oh, we came to Belgrade in two cars. Our son Dubravko, who works

7 at the police station, he got from the police station a Golf so that we

8 could go. My husband and I went and our son Dubravko, who was driving.

9 Our son who was a student in Sarajevo had already arrived and he also went

10 with us. In the other car, the other car was a Lada that belonged to my

11 brother-in-law's son, in the Lada was my brother-in-law, my sister-in-law,

12 and their son.

13 Q. Tell me, please, how long did you stay in Belgrade, and where did

14 you stay?

15 A. In Belgrade, when we just arrived, we all stopped at the Djukovic

16 family to get a bit of rest, and that's where my brother-in-law stayed

17 because they are actually related. We went to Leko Kalajdzic's family.

18 Q. Can you remember how long you stayed in Belgrade that time?

19 A. Well, we stayed perhaps about ten days, perhaps about 15 days. At

20 any rate, I know that when we wanted to leave, we wished to consult the

21 doctor to see finally what he could say to us. However, there was a

22 holiday, the 4th of July that is celebrated in Yugoslavia, so we had to

23 stay until after the holiday.

24 Q. Did your husband stay with you?

25 A. Yes, my husband stayed, because this son who was working at the

Page 7498

1 police station had to return the vehicle and he had to go back to work.

2 So the son who was a student also left with him.

3 Q. When you returned to Foca, how much time did you spend there, and

4 did you go back to Belgrade?

5 A. Yes. I stayed for a few days and I returned to Belgrade again.

6 But that time I took with me my son Bozidar's fiancee so that she could be

7 there too, so that it would be easier for him to cope during those first

8 days.

9 Q. How long did you stay in Belgrade?

10 A. Well, at least a month. I don't know. I can't say for sure.

11 That was my longest single stay. Later, whenever an opportunity arose, I

12 went to Belgrade. But his fiancee was by his side practically all the

13 time.

14 Q. You said that later, whenever an opportunity arose, you went to

15 Belgrade. Did your husband go sometimes when an opportunity arose to

16 visit his son?

17 A. Yes, when he could make it, when he could be absent. Sometimes we

18 went precisely for that purpose over the weekend. And when he travelled

19 on official business, he would sometimes stop by, even when I was not

20 there.

21 Q. You said to us that sometime in August you moved from the hotel.

22 Where did you move from the hotel?

23 A. Yes, we moved. We moved to an abandoned apartment, Dr. Ismet

24 Sosevic's apartment, that was given to us by the municipality.

25 Q. Did you get it for temporary use?

Page 7499













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7500

1 A. Yes, for temporary use. On the door there was an inscription

2 stating that the apartment was allocated for temporary use to such and

3 such a person. The name was also referred to.

4 Q. Are you still in that apartment?

5 A. No. I got out of it last year. We managed to do some repairs on

6 our own house and then I moved. Truth to tell, not everything has been

7 repaired yet, but you can live there.

8 Q. What did you do with Ismet Sosevic's apartment that you were

9 using?

10 A. I handed the apartment over, and a record was made of that, to the

11 office for displaced persons and refugees.

12 Q. Was your son Spomenko also in a Muslim apartment?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did he also use it temporarily?

15 A. Yes. You see, all apartments, regardless of whether they were

16 Serb or Muslim, were allocated to other persons only for temporary use.

17 Q. Is your son Spomenko still in that apartment that he was using

18 temporarily?

19 A. No. He moved together with me to our house.

20 Q. Your son Bogdan and your son Dubravko, do they also have Muslim

21 apartments that they are using temporarily?

22 A. No. Bogdan and Dubravko are using abandoned Serb apartments.

23 Q. And your son Dubravko, did he move?

24 A. No. During these few days that I'm here, he should be going back

25 to the house as well.

Page 7501

1 Q. Madam, we've just been talking about the house. I want to ask you

2 the following: Can you remember, since your house burned down, whether

3 any work was done on your house in 1992?

4 A. Yes. In 1992, the house was covered and it was cleared, cleaned,

5 all of this. What's the word for this? You know, individual bricks,

6 things like that. People call it rubble in our parts.

7 Q. Do you know how come this happened, that your house was covered?

8 A. I really don't know, but I think it went through the

9 municipality.

10 Q. Do you know that persons of Muslim ethnicity who were detained at

11 the KP Dom worked on covering the house?

12 A. Yes, I know that because precisely when they were working, I would

13 prepare lunch and take it to them.

14 Q. Did you always take lunch to them whenever they worked?

15 A. Every day when they worked. I only took lunch, nothing else. I

16 personally did that.

17 Q. Do you know whether they were brought juice, things to drink,

18 tobacco?

19 A. Yes. There were those plastic pots for preparing coffee. So I

20 cooked coffee for them, because in Bosnia coffee is like a special treat.

21 Q. Tell me, please, do you know who your husband addressed in respect

22 of having the house covered, and what he asked for?

23 A. I think he addressed someone at the municipality, because

24 everybody addresses the municipality and they ask for things. I know that

25 he told me that he asked for a tent or something like that, a canvas, to

Page 7502

1 cover the walls at least. So what actually happened and who decided to

2 have it covered by a roof, I don't know about that. I just know it was

3 from the municipality.

4 Q. Thank you, madam. Do you know, since you are married to

5 Mr. Milorad Krnojelac, do you know what Mr. Milorad Krnojelac did in 1992,

6 where he was employed?

7 A. I know. He was employed at the KP Dom, the Drina Economic Unit.

8 When he received orders to go there, he showed me these orders. I didn't

9 read it. I can't see without my glasses. But it was very short. It was

10 only two or three lines on that piece of paper. And he told me that he

11 was supposed to go there in order to take care of the building, to repair

12 the damage, to try to maintain the economy, to get the furniture factory

13 started up again, et cetera.

14 Q. Later, as you lived together, did you talk about his work? If so,

15 how often?

16 A. We usually do not discuss what we do at work. As for our work, we

17 don't discuss it very much, but I did ask him. I said, "Oh, rumour has it

18 that Muslims are detained there." And he said to me, "Don't worry. I

19 have nothing to do with them. They are under the military."

20 Q. Was your husband absent often? Did he travel a lot? Do you

21 remember that?

22 A. Yes, he did travel. He travelled to Serbia, he travelled to

23 Montenegro too. Usually they would take some goods and then carry out

24 barter, because there was no system of payments in place, so it was simple

25 barter. They exchanged it for something else.

Page 7503

1 Q. You said that you lived with your husband for such a long time.

2 Was he involved in politics?

3 A. No, he was never involved in politics.

4 Q. Since this is your husband, you would probably have to know

5 whether he was a member of the Serb democratic party.

6 A. No, never. The only party that he was ever a member of was the

7 League of Communists of Yugoslavia.

8 Q. Did your husband have any nationalistic bias, or let me put it

9 simply: Was he a nationalist?

10 A. Well, really, this seems a bit ridiculous. A man who has a mixed

11 marriage of his own, how could he have a nationalistic bias?

12 Q. Did you and your husband raise your children in the sense of

13 having definite nationalist feelings or not?

14 A. No. No, we did not bring them up that way. I said that I'm a

15 teacher by profession too. I completed teachers' college. And he is also

16 a teacher. A teacher cannot be a nationalist, because if a teacher is,

17 then he missed his vocation. That's how we brought up our own children.

18 So our children had friends in both ethnic groups. They socialised with

19 them. My son Dubravko was best man at a Muslim friend's wedding too.

20 Q. Since you married a Serb, did you celebrate Catholic holidays at

21 your home?

22 A. Yes. How should I put this? We had -- I don't know how to put

23 this right. We had two Christmases and two Easters. These were holidays

24 in our family. Also New Year's day and the birthdays of our children.

25 Q. You told us for how long you've been married to Mr. Krnojelac. Do

Page 7504

1 you think that this is a harmonious marriage?

2 A. Yes. Yes. Our marriage has been harmonious. Many people in town

3 envied us.

4 Q. What is the attitude of your own family, the family that you grew

5 up in, from Ilidza, from Sarajevo?

6 A. A real relationship of friendship, as if we were all one family.

7 Q. You say that many people envied you and you had a harmonious

8 relationship. You also say that your own family that you grew up in also

9 respected that relationship of yours. Did this relationship change in any

10 way just before the war, during the war, or now, after the war, since

11 Mr. Krnojelac has been detained?

12 A. No. No, it did not change. These strong family ties and this

13 harmony that always existed between our families remained the same.

14 Q. You did not change your opinion of your husband, the opinion you

15 had when you met him, when you married him, after all the ugly years and

16 bad things that happened and that you lived through?

17 A. No. I did not change my opinion, and I think that nothing can

18 change my attitude towards him, because I know him well. It's been 40

19 years, and I think that he is the way he was, and I don't think he is

20 capable of doing what he is being accused of having done.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The Defence

22 has no further questions. I think that I was much, much shorter than what

23 I promised you before the examination-in-chief itself, let alone what I

24 mentioned in the written submission.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Your oral estimate this morning was practically spot

Page 7505

1 on, to use a colloquial expression, but thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

2 Cross-examination will occur after the adjournment at 11.30.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

8 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Krnojelac.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. Mrs. Krnojelac, you do not have to observe now your screen because

11 we speak a different language and the problem does not arise at all. So

12 you do not have to observe it.

13 Mrs. Krnojelac, you told us that you and your family stayed for a

14 few days in your house right after the outbreak of the war, and you also

15 mentioned that your son Bogdan was in Sarajevo. When did he come back to

16 Foca?

17 A. He returned to Foca sometime after the 24th, I think, the 24th of

18 April. Sometime around then.

19 Q. And was he mobilised into a military unit or into a police unit?

20 A. You mean immediately?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Not straight away.

23 Q. When was he mobilised?

24 A. He was mobilised when the general mobilisation was proclaimed.

25 Q. When was that?

Page 7506













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7507

1 A. The general mobilisation, if I may explain, occurred around the

2 20th. There was a loudspeaker. But he wasn't there at the time. But

3 from time to time a vehicle with this loudspeaker would go around town,

4 calling on all those who still hadn't reported to report, so that when he

5 came, he did report for mobilisation.

6 Q. You mentioned the 20th. Is that the 20th of April, 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When, actually, did he become a soldier? I mean Bogdan. Do you

9 recall? You do not need to know the date, the exact date. But maybe the

10 month?

11 A. I don't know. The end of April or the beginning of May, I'm

12 afraid I can't tell you. But it was 1992.

13 Q. Do you know into which unit he was recruited?

14 A. He was in the rear, in the warehouse.

15 Q. As a soldier or reserve police; do you know that?

16 A. No, he wasn't a reserve policeman. A soldier.

17 Q. You mentioned that when the -- no, thank you. When the war

18 started on the 8th of April, you and your Serb neighbours were afraid,

19 right, because you were right in the middle between Cafe Bor, where the

20 Muslim positions were, and the Serb positions on the hill above your

21 house; right? You were afraid.

22 A. Yes, we were afraid, because there were stories that they wanted

23 to divide Foca into two parts, a Muslim and a Serb part. The line of

24 separation was supposed to be our street, so we would then belong to the

25 Muslim part. And then, as we had built that house at the cost of great

Page 7508

1 sacrifice and a great deal of effort, it was very difficult to part with

2 it.

3 Q. Your neighbours Obrenovic, Drakul, and Matovic, they left already

4 when the war started on the 8th of April; right? They left right away for

5 Serb villages.

6 A. They left before us. When exactly they left, in view of the

7 conditions at the time, I really don't know. But we stayed on because, as

8 I was saying, it's very difficult to part with something that you had

9 invested so much in. Our children were still in elementary school and

10 they did manual work as if they were adults, when we were building it, and

11 it was very difficult to part with it.

12 Q. Your neighbours Kovac, Kovacevic, and Gruic, they also left before

13 you; right?

14 A. They left. They said that they, too, would stay. However, at a

15 certain point in time, we thought we were alone because we saw no one

16 moving around their houses anymore.

17 Q. And when you saw the other Serb houses being abandoned, you also

18 thought of leaving to Cerezluk; right?

19 A. Not immediately. Not straight away. We didn't think of leaving.

20 We kept thinking that somehow a solution would be found, and that is why

21 we stayed longer than the others, because we believed in something, which

22 we saw later on it was foolish on our part to have believed in.

23 Q. It was a prospect for you to leave. It was an option that you

24 just didn't want to take at the moment between the 8th and the 11th;

25 right? You were thinking about it.

Page 7509

1 A. It was an option, but we kept thinking about it until the 11th,

2 and then the 11th was decisive, when we saw that Muslims were grouping.

3 This was maybe some 50 metres away as the crow flies from our house into

4 this abandoned school, and this caused fear.

5 Q. We do not have to repeat -- you do not have to repeat all these

6 details, because it's already said. You mentioned the car in which you

7 left, and your husband did not have a car at that time; right?

8 A. He did have a Skoda.

9 Q. Why did you not leave in the Skoda?

10 A. Because it was in very bad shape, and it stayed behind. We left

11 it there.

12 Q. Did you ever use it later on when you returned to Foca, or was it

13 destroyed or taken away?

14 A. We never used it, and I really don't remember what happened to

15 it. Anyway, we never used it again.

16 Q. Your husband later got a car, a red Yugo, from the KP Dom; right?

17 A. I don't know. My son had a Yugo, the youngest one, Bozidar.

18 Q. You never saw your husband in a red Yugo, in a newer red Yugo than

19 the one of your son?

20 A. You see, I would have to look at the registration plates to know

21 the difference. Red Yugos began coming to Foca when people were given

22 loans, and they could buy a car on hire purchase, and this was a very

23 frequent car to be seen in town. Most of them were red or white, so I

24 really can't tell whether it was one or the other, because I didn't look

25 at the licence plates.

Page 7510

1 Q. When you saw your husband driving a red Yugo, he took it home;

2 right? He drove in this red Yugo to your apartment, to Hotel Zelengora;

3 right?

4 A. No. My son drove it more than he did, my son Bozidar.

5 Q. When you left for Cerezluk, you intended to stay until the

6 fighting had ceased and your area would be safe; right?

7 A. We thought it would be over quickly and that we would be able to

8 return home.

9 Q. Yes, but you knew it could be some days; right?

10 A. Well, you see, the first time the shooting started, it lasted for

11 one day. Then there was a two-day lull. So we thought it would all blow

12 over very quickly.

13 Q. But however, you were going to stay overnight, and you took

14 clothing and other items with you, didn't you? That's natural; right?

15 A. No, we didn't take anything with us, because we left in such haste

16 that it never occurred to us to take anything with us except for what we

17 were wearing.

18 Q. You mentioned that you saw your house burning. At what time of

19 the day did you see it burn?

20 A. I think it was around in the morning sometime, something like

21 that, and during the night. It burned for a long time, or maybe that's

22 the impression I had. I think it burned on for two days, because it was a

23 big house, and the apartment in the attic was all made of wood panelling,

24 so that the flames were very big.

25 Q. Who actually told you that your house was on fire? Do you recall

Page 7511

1 that? Or did you observe yourself and see it right away?

2 A. I saw it and I watched it and I cried as it burnt, because you can

3 see that from the balcony. I saw other houses burning as well. I saw

4 when, just below our houses, when some men were running around and

5 carrying something. I couldn't see what it was, but I saw it being thrown

6 at the balcony and then the house would go up in flames, and this was a

7 house three houses away from ours.

8 Q. The houses of your Serb neighbours in Partizanski Put, they were

9 set on fire earlier than your house, right, one day earlier, actually. Do

10 you recall that?

11 A. Their houses were torched earlier. So was ours. But it

12 didn't -- apparently it didn't burn properly. But we didn't dare go down

13 there to see what was happening, because the area was already held by the

14 Muslims, and then afterwards it burnt down completely.

15 Q. Just let me clarify one point. You were on the balcony when your

16 house started burning; is that what you say?

17 A. No. You see, really, I did see the house in flames when I went

18 out on the balcony, because we were looking around. We were hoping that

19 we would be able to see what was going on down there. So it just so

20 happens that I saw it burning, and I said, "It's gone. It's burnt down."

21 Q. But it's not that someone came to you and said, "Come out to the

22 balcony and see your house is burning." That's not what happened.

23 A. I don't remember, believe me. I know I saw it, but you're asking

24 me to remember these things. These were terrible moments, and because one

25 is so emotional, one doesn't register all these details.

Page 7512

1 Q. After your house was burned, you received clothing from family

2 members and from your friends; right? Clothing, bed linen, and other

3 things, didn't you?

4 A. Yes. When we were up there, from my sister-in-law I got some

5 clothes, and then some friends of ours, and the bedding, a TV set. A suit

6 for my husband or, rather, a jacket and trousers were brought to us by

7 friends when we were in the hotel. But the basics we got in Cerezluk.

8 Q. At the time when you moved into Hotel Zelengora - you've already

9 given us a date - at that time the fighting in Foca had already stopped

10 and the Serb authorities were in control; right?

11 A. Yes, the fighting had stopped.

12 Q. This taking over of Foca by the Serb authorities, do you

13 personally call this the liberation of Foca?

14 A. Well, that's what everyone calls it, and it has come to be

15 customary to say that Foca has been liberated. In fact, they withdrew

16 towards Ustikolina.

17 Q. I asked about you personally. Do you personally use the term

18 "liberation" when you think of this taking over by the Serbs? Is that,

19 for you, liberation?

20 A. I don't know. I can't say liberation. Well, it was simply those

21 who stayed on set up their authority. I don't know. I never gave the

22 matter any thought, believe me.

23 Q. The liberation of Foca, that is a rather nationalistic term seen

24 from the Serb side; right?

25 A. Well, let me tell you, I don't know how it was seen. At that

Page 7513













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7514

1 point in time, I didn't think about these things. All I cared about was

2 for the shooting to stop, for us to have peace, for us to be able to sleep

3 peacefully, though we didn't sleep in tranquillity at all.

4 Q. Do you recall when Foca was renamed Srbinje? Do you know when

5 that was?

6 A. Believe me, I don't know the date. But I do know that there was

7 some reaction on the part of the citizens of Foca that people reacted to

8 this, "Why should the name be changed?" As for myself, though I have been

9 in Foca for 40 years, I very rarely use the word "Srbinje." For me it is

10 still Foca.

11 Q. You said that you do not know the date. But do you know which

12 year? Was it 1993 or 1994?

13 A. Believe me, I don't know. This didn't interest me at all. As for

14 me, it was Foca, as I have already said.

15 Q. You mentioned the reactions that some people took to this

16 renaming. But others celebrated it; right? It was officially celebrated,

17 the renaming; right?

18 A. Believe me, I don't know. I know that there was a lot of

19 reaction, quite massive, because there was some kind of a poll conducted,

20 so that the citizens were really quite angry.

21 Q. But the majority in this poll must have been for Srbinje;

22 otherwise, it would still be Foca; right?

23 A. I don't think that's quite right, because even now many people --

24 maybe some people who were in charge from the party in power, they wanted

25 the change and they introduced it. But as far as the masses are

Page 7515

1 concerned, my opinion is that they still considered their town to be

2 called Foca and themselves as Focaci, the people of Foca.

3 Q. You mentioned that you moved into Dr. Sosevic's apartment. It was

4 fully furnished; right? Mr. Sosevic had left his things behind.

5 A. The apartment was furnished, as far as the actual furniture is

6 concerned. However, as regards bedding and the other items that could be

7 moved, somebody had taken these things away before we arrived. We don't

8 know who it was.

9 Q. But you did not pay anything to Mr. Sosevic for taking over his

10 furniture; right? You just took it over.

11 A. Yes. It was for temporary use. Everything was given. When I

12 arrived at that apartment, I found Dr. Ismet Sosevic's documents, his

13 diploma, children's photographs, family photos, various legal papers, a

14 decision on the apartment, the garage, the weekend home, his cardiogram.

15 I packed all that together and left it in one place. After Dayton was

16 signed, when the opportunity arose, I established contact through some

17 friends and we sent these things. I also had the message conveyed to him

18 that anything he wants of the furniture, whenever he comes, I would give

19 it back to him. However, Dr. Ismet Sosevic thanked me, through this

20 friend, for the documents and photographs and things I had sent him --

21 Q. Madam, I asked you a very simple question and I want to keep the

22 cross-examination very short; therefore, I would rather prefer if you

23 would just answer my question.

24 You mentioned that you moved back into your house, which was still

25 under construction, and you said it was in -- you said it was last year,

Page 7516

1 that is, 2000, the year 2000?

2 A. Yes. I have the decision from the office for refugees and

3 displaced persons certifying that I have handed over the apartment. I

4 didn't bring it, but I can send it to you, if you need it.

5 Q. When your husband was arrested, did it actually start, that they

6 wanted you to move back into your house, this committee or this

7 organisation? Is that when it started?

8 A. No, it wasn't then that it started. My husband was arrested three

9 years ago, and I moved back last year. When this Commission for Displaced

10 Persons and Refugees started operating, at first it would accommodate the

11 homeless in temporary accommodation; and then later, when requests for

12 restoring tenancy rights were made, these decisions to move people out

13 were issued. That is how I got the decision, even though the house had

14 not been completely repaired.

15 Q. Mrs. Krnojelac, you said that you worked in the Privredna Banka

16 before and during the war. Did you have dealings with foreign currency

17 accounts?

18 A. Not with foreign currency accounts. I had nothing to do with them

19 because I was a clerk in the accounting department and I am not directly

20 linked to anything but actual accounting and bookkeeping.

21 Q. Of the personal accounts of customers, or what was your special

22 job?

23 A. My job was general bookkeeping. As there was a mobilisation and

24 people had left, mostly women stayed behind to work. We did everything to

25 do with bookkeeping.

Page 7517

1 Q. I was talking about the time before the war. Just before the war,

2 were you involved -- before the war.

3 A. Oh, I see, just before the war. I'm sorry. Just before the war,

4 I kept the citizens' current accounts.

5 Q. Before the war, the director was Spaso Cosovic, a Serb; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did he remain in this position during the war?

8 A. No. He left for Belgrade. He abandoned his job.

9 Q. Who became the new director?

10 A. The new director was Slavko Cosovic.

11 Q. And he's a Serb too?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. He was a member of the SDS?

14 A. No. You mean the new director? No, he wasn't. He was a member

15 of Dodik's party, Mr. Dodik's party. I don't know the name just now.

16 Q. Is this the Radical Party? Is this the Serb Radical Party?

17 A. No. I don't know anything about politics.

18 Q. Mr. Bogdanovic also worked in the bank and he was an economist

19 before the war; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And during the war, he was a guard and he always was on night

22 shift; right?

23 A. There were very few men who hadn't left, and people had to be on

24 duty at the bank, so it was the men who were unfit for military service

25 who were on duty, or those who had young children and who did not have

Page 7518

1 wives, and also those who were elderly.

2 Q. Mr. Medin Tatarevac, you know this person; right? He was one of

3 your Muslim colleagues in the bank?

4 A. Yes. He was director of the foreign exchange sector.

5 Q. When did he work last? When did you see him for the last time in

6 the bank?

7 A. I'm not sure, but on the 4th, I think the 4th of April, I think I

8 saw him, because that year Bajram was on the 4th of April, and in the

9 bank, usually for these religious holidays, colleagues would prepare a

10 treat for their other colleagues, for Christmas, for Bajram, and then we

11 were together and then our Muslim colleagues had prepared a treat for us.

12 Q. After the outbreak of the war, he did not return to the bank for

13 work; right?

14 A. I did not see him.

15 Q. Because he was arrested and taken to the KP Dom, and from there he

16 disappeared; right? You know that. He was your colleague.

17 A. I know that he was my colleague, but whether he was arrested and

18 taken away, believe me, I don't know about that.

19 Q. Mr. Aziz Sahinovic was also your colleague; right?

20 A. Yes, and his wife also worked with us.

21 Q. And Mr. Aziz Sahinovic had a rather high position in the bank. He

22 was a sort of manager; right?

23 A. No. No. He was not a manager. He was a clerk for cooperation,

24 so he went into the field in order to provide, so to speak -- I mean -- I

25 mean, to advertise savings with our bank. That was his job.

Page 7519

1 Q. Did he have dealings with foreign currencies?

2 A. Yes. Yes. Savings, either foreign exchange savings or dinar

3 savings.

4 Q. How long do you know him?

5 A. I don't know. Perhaps for as long as I've been working at the

6 bank. Perhaps a year later or something, because he met his wife at the

7 bank as well. She came to work there after me, so they got married later,

8 and this marriage is a result of the fact that they both came to work at

9 the bank.

10 Q. He was an honest person; right? He was not a thief.

11 A. I cannot say that anybody is a thief when I don't know. It's very

12 hard, you know, and that is a big accusation.

13 Q. You know him as an honest person; right? We are talking about

14 your colleague.

15 A. While we worked together, there is nothing bad that I ever learned

16 about him.

17 Q. You did not hear that he actually had stolen or taken away

18 30.000 -- more than 30.000 Deutschmarks? You did not hear anything like

19 this; right?

20 A. Believe me, I just know that some foreign exchange went missing,

21 and it was two men and one woman who were mentioned in that context. This

22 woman had a child sick with leukaemia and she also had some savings in our

23 bank. And people talked about him too, but believe me, I did not want to

24 think about this or to burden myself with it in any way.

25 Q. The two men that you mentioned were mentioned in this context, was

Page 7520













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7521

1 it Mr. Aziz Sahinovic and Mr. Tatarevac?

2 A. No. No. I did not hear about Tatarevac at all. A woman. There

3 was a woman directly having to do something with foreign exchange. She

4 actually carried the foreign currency to Sarajevo and she actually kept

5 the safe with foreign exchange in it.

6 Q. Who actually claimed that Mr. Aziz Sahinovic was responsible or

7 may have been involved? Who claimed that? Do you know?

8 A. Well, you know, believe me, I can't give you a direct answer.

9 This was just talk that went round the office. When you don't work, then

10 people talk, and then they say some money went missing. As for small

11 clerks, the little people there, we didn't really know anything. We were

12 just talking about it, but we didn't really know anything.

13 Q. When did it go around the office? Was it in June 1992?

14 A. Immediately the beginning, when -- well, perhaps that safe was not

15 opened immediately. That was an omission. And then when people got

16 together in order to open the safe, they established that there was no

17 foreign currency there. Now, this involved people from that particular

18 branch. I belonged to the main office, the head office, and I work on the

19 fourth floor, whereas these people at the branch office, they are on the

20 ground floor and they are a branch office of ours, so we from upstairs

21 were not very well versed in this.

22 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Aziz Sahinovic was tortured in the KP Dom,

23 in relation to these rumours, and are you aware that he disappeared from

24 the KP Dom and is believed no more alive? Do you know that?

25 A. Believe me, I don't know that he was tortured. I know that he was

Page 7522

1 at the KP Dom, because a few days later his wife came to us at the bank,

2 and they had a Yugo car too. They also bought it on credit. They had a

3 white Yugo car and it was parked in front of the police station, and she

4 came to ask to leave together with her children, and she said that her

5 husband was over there.

6 Q. What was your reaction to hearing that your colleague was in the

7 KP Dom?

8 A. You know what, nobody likes to see a colleague or anyone detained,

9 but there's nothing I could do to help.

10 Q. Before the war, the bank had customers of all ethnic groups,

11 right: Muslims, Serbs, Croats?

12 A. Yes. Predominantly Muslims and Serbs. I was the only Croat at

13 the bank.

14 Q. And when the bank reopened in May 1992, only the Serbs got salary

15 cheques; right?

16 A. Perhaps it was about ten days. There was a Muslim who came. His

17 last name is Avdagic. He came. I had already moved to the hotel when he

18 came to work too, because he lived in a building near the hotel, so we

19 would sometimes walk home together from work. I would go to the hotel and

20 he would go to his home.

21 Q. Madam, I just asked you a rather simple question, and you didn't

22 answer that. I asked you: When the bank reopened and functioned as a

23 bank again in May 1992, only the Serbs, the Serb customers, got salary

24 cheques. That's what I meant.

25 A. Oh.

Page 7523

1 Q. So I'm speaking about the Serb customers; they received salary

2 cheques?

3 A. There was a misunderstanding. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I thought

4 you asked me about the employees. I'm so sorry.

5 Q. No problem.

6 A. In Foca, they were the only ones who stayed back and worked. This

7 colleague, for as long as he worked, I think that he had the same kind of

8 compensation I did. But to say the truth, our salaries were very small,

9 symbolical, to put it that way.

10 Q. In summer 1992, there was no more Muslim colleagues in the bank,

11 and the Muslim customers also had disappeared; right?

12 A. Well, they did not appear. They weren't there; they didn't show

13 up.

14 Q. We have discussed the repair works on your house. You were not

15 present when your husband had this discussion with the municipal

16 authorities; right? You were not present.

17 A. No.

18 Q. In which month did the Muslim detainees work on the house? Do you

19 recall when it started and when it ended?

20 A. Believe me, I don't know exactly, but I think it was the last

21 months of 1992. Perhaps October, November, something like that,

22 approximately.

23 Q. And you mentioned that they repaired the roof and they cleared the

24 rubble. Muslim detainees also --

25 A. Yes.

Page 7524

1 Q. -- built in an iron staircase; right?

2 A. Believe me, as far as the staircase is concerned, I didn't

3 supervise that. But I know that they did some welding on the staircase

4 that had been brought there. But where from, I really don't know. I was

5 not paying much attention because I was troubled by other things.

6 Q. Did the detainees also do some plumbing work so that you had

7 water, or any other plumbing work; do you recall that?

8 A. I don't remember. When I was supposed to move to the house, a

9 plumber was working there.

10 Q. Your son Spomenko guarded the detainees while they worked on the

11 house; right?

12 A. Yes, he was present.

13 Q. You mentioned how you provided food and coffee to the detainees,

14 and my question is: To provide coffee, that's the usual hospitality in

15 Bosnia; right? Who works on the house gets coffee and who visits the

16 house gets coffee; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You even brought --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- beer for them to drink; right?

21 A. Believe me, I don't know. I personally did not.

22 Q. At that time when you brought the food, in October/November, you

23 could buy food. You could prepare food and other goods. You could buy

24 goods in shops and on the market; right?

25 A. You could hardly buy anything. What I prepared and brought was

Page 7525

1 from the countryside, because my brother-in-law was there and I also had a

2 sister-in-law there, so they sent us these dairy products, eggs, potatoes,

3 you know, things that are grown in the country; then vegetables that had

4 already been collected in the autumn.

5 As displaced persons, we also got some aid from the Red Cross. We

6 got some tinned food; we also got some toiletries, things like that. At

7 first, we also got some aid from the church, from the Orthodox church. So

8 out of all of that that we had, I tried, to the best of my ability, to

9 bring them food after all and to keep them satisfied.

10 Q. Do you recall that Muslim detainees from the metalwork shop of the

11 KP Dom made an exercise machine for your son, Bozidar, so that he could

12 exercise after his injury? Do you recall that?

13 A. No, no, I do not recall that at all, because he was not doing any

14 kind of exercise on any kind of machine. Until the present day, he's the

15 way he is.

16 Q. The trucks of the KP Dom and the drivers of the KP Dom helped you

17 by removing rubble from your house; right? They worked on the house;

18 you're aware of that, aren't you?

19 A. You know what, I really don't know about that, how things

20 happened, how they were done. I just came to the house to bring them

21 food. I waited for them to eat it, whatever was there, and I didn't stay

22 any longer than that. So I really can't answer your question.

23 Q. As far as detainees worked on the house or drivers helped, you did

24 not pay anything for the work to the KP Dom; right?

25 A. I don't know. Maybe. When we were, for example, making the door,

Page 7526

1 the entrance door for the house, when the roof was put in place in order

2 to be able to close the house, that door was paid for. There was an order

3 and it was paid for, as far as I can remember. And also something else

4 was paid. I don't know whether it was a bed or something like that.

5 Q. You mentioned that you had family outside Foca who prepared or

6 grew some food. Where was the family? Your own family, or do you refer

7 to Mr. Krnojelac's family?

8 A. That's my husband's family, the Krnojelac family. All of my

9 family was in Sarajevo.

10 Q. And where was the family of Mr. Krnojelac staying, except for

11 Cerezluk? Where in the countryside?

12 A. Birotici. And the sister in Zavait.

13 Q. Where did the sister live in Zavait?

14 A. Kadijino Brdo is the name of this village or, rather, hamlet.

15 Q. Did she have a house there? Did she actually live there?

16 A. Yes. And she died the first year when my husband was arrested.

17 Q. What is the name of the sister?

18 A. Staka.

19 Q. Was she a farmer? Did she grow plants?

20 A. His sister was quite ill, but the brother-in-law, her husband, is

21 pretty well off, so he grew vegetables and crops and also had livestock,

22 pigs, et cetera.

23 Q. Just a question, just a completely different question: Do you

24 know a Slobodan Gagovic? Did you ever hear this name? Do you know who

25 that could be?

Page 7527













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Page 7528

1 A. Slobodan Gagovic? No.

2 Q. You mentioned that you went on the 24th to Belgrade to be with

3 your sons, and you mentioned that you took the Golf. Dubravko drove you

4 in a Golf. Why did you not take Bozidar's red Yugo? Was it not

5 functioning properly for such a long journey?

6 A. Well, it's not that it wasn't in good condition. Simply, the Golf

7 used diesel oil and therefore it was more economical, and also more

8 comfortable than the Yugo. So we got it from the police station. He got

9 it from them, actually, and he also got a travel authorisation from them.

10 It was like an official trip.

11 Q. How long did the drive take to Belgrade? Is it four, five hours?

12 A. Longer. Longer, because we went -- I mean, there was no other

13 way. We had to go to Pljevlja, Prijepolje, that way, so it took a long

14 time. Perhaps seven or eight hours, if not even longer than that.

15 Q. Where on the road did you meet up with your brother-in-law, Arso?

16 Where on the road did you meet him?

17 A. We didn't meet up somewhere along the road. We left Foca

18 together. We left together.

19 Q. From where?

20 A. In front of the hotel.

21 Q. You mentioned the permission that your son Dubravko got. Your

22 husband didn't get a permission?

23 A. My husband had travel authorisation. I also had to get permission

24 from where I worked because it was forbidden to leave the municipality

25 without permission.

Page 7529

1 Q. During this stay in Belgrade, this 10 to 15 days that you

2 mentioned, your son was in intensive care; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You could only see him through a glass window. You could not

5 actually talk to him; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You mentioned that you were looking for a doctor, to speak to the

8 doctor. When did you actually then meet the doctor?

9 A. Well, I said when the Defence asked me that this was after the

10 holiday. Because the 4th of July is a holiday, it was celebrated all over

11 Yugoslavia. And then after that holiday, I don't know exactly, a day or

12 two later, I can't remember now which day this 4th of July was, during the

13 week I mean, but it was after that holiday.

14 Q. Did the doctor tell you that your son was better and was going to

15 leave the intensive care?

16 A. He said to us that there was no more danger, and then we went

17 home. Then after a short break, I came back again with his fiancee.

18 Q. Except for saying that your son was better, did the doctor also

19 tell you that he would get out of intensive care, as he actually did? Do

20 you recall that?

21 A. Believe me, I can't remember.

22 Q. Until then, you hadn't spoken to your son, right; you always saw

23 him through the glass window?

24 A. Yes. It would happen that we would come and that he would seem to

25 be asleep, that he would not take notice of us at all.

Page 7530

1 Q. You love your son very much, all your sons; right?

2 A. All my sons, and my husband.

3 Q. And you knew that it would be very hard, psychologically very

4 hard, for your son Bozidar after losing his legs; right?

5 A. Yes, because he was only 24 years old.

6 Q. And you would not go home to Foca without having spoken to him and

7 without taking care of him in the few days when he is not in intensive

8 care; right? You would want to speak to him. You would not leave.

9 A. Well, I had to leave. We had to go back, because there weren't

10 any connections, and everybody was waiting for us to tell us what the

11 situation was, but we were hoping that I'd go back soon.

12 Q. There was no reason for you to go to Foca and leave him alone and

13 just return a few days later. You wouldn't leave without having talked to

14 him at least once.

15 A. There was reason, because the older son, Spomenko, who was

16 operated on his eardrums, he had quite considerably recovered and he was

17 there, and that was decisive for us, as we knew that one member of the

18 family would be at his side, so we could leave.

19 Q. Madam, you said your husband was in the communist party a long

20 time before the war; right?

21 A. Yes. That was the last time he was a member of any party.

22 Q. You yourself, were you also a member of the communist party?

23 A. I was not.

24 Q. Until when was your husband a member of the Communist League? Do

25 you know that? Was it until the new parties were formed?

Page 7531

1 A. He was a member of the League of Communists for as long as that

2 organisation existed in Foca.

3 Q. And when --

4 A. He never changed anything. The war started, and that was how it

5 all ended.

6 Q. When the new parties were formed in 1990, did your husband cease

7 to be in the communist party or did he join the new communist party that

8 was built then, established then?

9 A. No. He said, "I was a member of one party once in my life, and I

10 don't wish to be a member of any other party ever again."

11 Q. Your husband was not really a convinced communist; right?

12 A. I don't know how to explain it. He was in favour of the communist

13 policy, for togetherness.

14 Q. But he was not a convinced communist actually working in functions

15 in the communist party --

16 A. No.

17 Q. -- he was a teacher; right?

18 A. No, no, no. He was a member, just a member.

19 Q. It was very common before 1990 to be a member of the communist

20 party. It was opportune because it could help the career; right?

21 A. It's true that certain people could not be managers if they were

22 not members, but there were exceptions.

23 Q. You mentioned that your husband worked at the KP Dom. He was

24 actually the warden of the KP Dom; right?

25 A. Yes, but the part for the economy, the economic part.

Page 7532

1 Q. You personally did not ever go to the KP Dom. You stayed away;

2 right?

3 A. No, I never went there.

4 Q. And as you have told us, you did not talk much about the job in

5 the KP Dom with your husband. You mentioned that.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said that you love your husband and he loves you too; right?

8 A. Yes. Yes, very much so, and I appreciate him very much.

9 Q. He would not tell you things that would scare you; right? He

10 wouldn't tell you such things.

11 A. I don't think that there were any things he could tell me that

12 would scare me, because between us there was trust, understanding, and at

13 the hardest moments in our lives we were there for one other.

14 Q. That's understood, Mrs. Krnojelac, but your husband would not tell

15 you things that do not concern you if it was scary things and troubling

16 things; right? He would not share such things if it does not concern

17 you.

18 A. I think he would share it with me. He would feel easier if he

19 did, because I too would share with him things that were troublesome.

20 Because after all, if you have someone to talk to and share with, you feel

21 different; you feel better.

22 Q. He never or rarely talked with you about his job. You said it was

23 not an issue that you discussed often.

24 A. No, we didn't, because at first I knew what his duties were, and

25 when I asked him, "And what about the detained persons?" he said that he

Page 7533

1 had nothing to do with that, that that was under the army command. So he

2 relieved me. I no longer worried about it any more.

3 Q. And he did not later on tell you that detainees, Muslim detainees,

4 came to him and complained and told him that they suffered? He didn't

5 tell you that; right?

6 A. We did talk. He told me how our neighbour, [redacted], had come

7 to see him and that my son went to visit his uncle. He did tell me about

8 that.

9 Q. He did not tell you that Juso Dzamalija committed suicide in the

10 isolation cell; right?

11 A. He didn't tell me that, no.

12 Q. He didn't tell you that Halim Konjo was found dead in the prison?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When he took this position in the KP Dom in April 1992, he didn't

15 have any reservations taking this position; right? It was better than to

16 be on the front line; right?

17 A. Well, you see, whoever was under work obligation and received such

18 a decision, he was very happy to receive it, because, as you know, work

19 obligation is one thing and going on the front line is another. That's

20 quite understandable.

21 Q. And he also didn't tell you later on that he tried to get out of

22 this position?

23 A. I think that I know from the experience I had at work, where I was

24 working, a state of war had been proclaimed, and you couldn't refuse

25 anything, whatever you were given as your assignment.

Page 7534













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7535

1 Q. My question was: He never told you that he was trying to get out

2 of this assignment?

3 A. Yes, he tried, and we always kept talking about how nice it was to

4 work with children at school, how different that was.

5 Q. However, he stayed on and he was even appointed a permanent warden

6 by the Ministry of Justice, right, in July 1992?

7 A. Yes, he did receive a decision. He brought it home. Why they did

8 that, I don't know. He takes every job very seriously and conscientiously

9 and he tries to do his very best, and most probably the people who

10 appointed him appreciated his work, were satisfied with him. That is my

11 opinion. Whether that is so, I don't know.

12 Q. Was he proud of having this position? It's a rather high

13 position.

14 A. No. No. He loved what he used to do, to work with children. And

15 may I add: When he was appointed director of the school later on, school

16 principal, he was very sorry not to be in the classroom with children. He

17 didn't care about positions.

18 Q. Madam, you are married since, as you said, almost 40 years, and

19 you miss your husband.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you miss your husband; right?

22 A. Terribly.

23 Q. And you want to have him back home as soon as possible; right?

24 A. Certainly. Who wouldn't want that?

25 Q. And you do everything to help him to get home; right?

Page 7536

1 A. What can I do to help? I can just tell the truth about him,

2 nothing more than that. What will happen, no one knows. Maybe you do,

3 you know, here.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether you

7 will believe me, but the Defence has not a single question for the

8 re-examination.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, madam, for giving evidence. You are now

10 free to leave.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Bakrac, your proposal was to call these

14 experts -- or expert or experts after your client; is that right?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We thought that

16 would be most appropriate, in view of the timetable, and we know about Ana

17 Najman, that the Prosecution wants to cross-examine her and that we have

18 to bring her. We're still not quite sure about the economist. We're

19 still looking through the documents. I think that we will not need the

20 expert witness for criminal law, so one is certain, as emanates from the

21 response of Prosecution, and possibly a second expert for economic

22 matters.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, well, it's certainly appropriate, if I may put

24 it that way, for Ms. Najman to be giving evidence after your client. Now,

25 you wanted some time off so that you can consult with your client about

Page 7537

1 the evidence he's going to give.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission, I

3 would not like to detract from the dignity of this courtroom and the

4 seriousness of this trial and of everything else which has brought us all

5 here, but I have to mention that the Defence needs -- and the Defence

6 means colleague Vasic and myself. We are the only ones in this courtroom

7 who are not full-time employees. Our families are more than 2.000

8 kilometres away, and I must admit that I feel a little like a refugee and

9 somebody who is homeless, because I am out of clean clothing. As I said,

10 I don't want to be taken not seriously. Both of us have school children

11 that are finishing the school year, and the school year will be over

12 tomorrow.

13 So if I may, I would like to present our plan. We thought we

14 would go back home for three days, until Tuesday, and then on Tuesday, we

15 try to prepare the examination-in-chief of the accused. We really do need

16 those three days, for the reasons I have given. I thought it necessary

17 for me to provide this explanation, as we asked for a break.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, if I may take the two points you put

19 forward, one about clean clothes. The Netherlands, and in particular, Den

20 Haag, does have laundries, and I'm not really very impressed by that. As

21 to the fact that you have children about to start holidays, I'm afraid if

22 you accept a brief to come to work in Den Haag, then I'm afraid that's one

23 of the problems you face.

24 In relation to preparing the examination-in-chief, I've already

25 pointed out to you the problem that you face or your client faces by not

Page 7538

1 being called as the first witness in his case, and I only want to

2 emphasise what I said earlier about some conclusions that may be drawn

3 about his evidence.

4 I know you have explained that you believe he'll be giving

5 evidence only along the lines of the interview he gave to the Prosecution,

6 but I don't want you to feel that that comment - which we said was open

7 for the Prosecution to make and for us, as a conclusion we can draw -

8 disappears. Indeed, it is somewhat made more likely by the fact that you

9 are going to spend a long time with your client getting him ready, having

10 now heard all of the evidence which has been given except for

11 Ms. Najman's. But I'm not going to take that any further. I just want to

12 remind you of that particular problem.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I don't

14 know whether I have been fully understood regarding preparations. Please

15 don't think that only the Defence is tired. I know there are long days,

16 but believe me, we haven't had time to find one. But we feel that three

17 weeks of trial without interruption would be tiring for the accused too,

18 because we are expecting a long and exhausting cross-examination. So we

19 feel it would be reasonable for him to have a rest and to prepare in that

20 sense.

21 Furthermore, when the Defence says "to prepare with the accused,"

22 it means to prepare its questions so that the examination-in-chief should

23 be channeled correctly so as not to waste time, so that we can focus on

24 the facts that we consider to be important and relevant. It was in that

25 sense that I said that we needed a time to prepare of two or three days,

Page 7539

1 and of course a short rest.

2 I fully respect -- I know we're all doing a hard job here and that

3 we're all tired. But the testimony of the accused is, after all, an

4 important element in these proceedings, and we would like our client not

5 to be able to reproach us for being exhausted when he started his

6 testimony.

7 We shall do everything else as planned regarding the closing

8 statement and everything else that you referred to today.

9 JUDGE HUNT: We note what you say. Whether we agree with it or

10 not is a different matter.

11 You seek, then, the whole of next week; that's what you're really

12 asking for.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. After that we can

14 go on working without interruption for as long as you say. I've really

15 given you the reasons, because the first day we can travel is Friday, we

16 would go Friday and return Monday, to be able to prepare the questions.

17 And as we are not working on a Friday and a weekend follows, that is what

18 makes it so long. If we had ended up on another day, I wouldn't be asking

19 for a whole week. It just seems to have worked out that way.

20 JUDGE HUNT: You had, in fact, asked for a whole week, but that

21 was why we reserved our decision, until we knew just when it was the

22 evidence -- the other evidence ceased. Anyway, is there anything more you

23 want to say about it?

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Believe me, it

25 wasn't planned in advance. I somehow expected, estimated, that we would

Page 7540

1 finish on Thursday. If we had finished on a Tuesday, then we would have,

2 believe me, suggested something else.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. You sit down.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE HUNT: Does the Prosecution want to say anything about

6 this?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Just one suggestion in relation to the

8 economist. If the economist could make an addendum to his report in

9 writing, we would probably just agree to it again and he wouldn't have to

10 come at all. That would be a suggestion.

11 JUDGE HUNT: I did suggest that at the time when this was

12 previously discussed, and I hope that it will be carried out.

13 Well, Mr. Bakrac, you must have a crystal ball that is very

14 accurate to be able to say that you were expecting it to finish on a

15 Thursday. We will grant you the time. That means that your client will

16 start on Monday, the 25th of June. You, of course, will be doing more

17 than just strapping up your client. I assume you'll be working on your

18 final brief, as indeed the Prosecution will be working on its.

19 I would like the amendment to the indictment to be sorted out

20 before the accused gives evidence. It's only a matter of appearances,

21 perhaps, but I think that it is important that at the time he gives

22 evidence, the indictment is in its final form.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, actually, everything is

24 finished. The only reason why we didn't file the third amended indictment

25 up to now is that the question is: Do we have to attach all the schedules

Page 7541













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 7542

1 again, or would you accept just the body -- the body of the indictment

2 with the two additional sections in it?

3 JUDGE HUNT: I must confess, I had not thought of something even

4 as extensive as a third amended indictment. Just an amended paragraph

5 5.2, I would have thought, is sufficient, and it can be attached to the

6 existing indictment.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: What we actually did is we have the third

8 amended indictment, and it's signed already by the Deputy Prosecutor, and

9 all we did is we added in 5.1, we added this section (f), and in -- no,

10 sorry, 5.2, we added the section (f). In the last paragraph related to

11 5.2, we just gave a few details about exchanges and plum-pickers, and that

12 was all we did. We have it as a complete document, but we didn't attach

13 the schedules again.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Well, certainly, if that is so, then you need not

15 attach the schedules. They can be taken from the last -- well, the

16 current indictment. Have you shown the amendment to the Defence?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Not yet. But we'll file it right now

18 after -- yes, when we go out of the room, we will file it. But we can

19 give Mr. Bakrac an additional --

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Copy.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- copy right now in the courtroom,

22 actually.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I don't expect you to be able to deal

24 with this straight away. But is there any problem that you see in

25 granting this amendment, bearing in mind that it is only to reflect what

Page 7543

1 the evidence has been and the issues which are being fought? Do you

2 expect there will be any objection to it?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the moment, no, but

4 we really have to look at the amendments to see whether they are in

5 conformity with procedure. But in principle and for the moment, no.

6 JUDGE HUNT: That's a very reasonable attitude to take, if I may

7 say so, and I fully understand that you do have to look at it first. But

8 I would like to have some form of a response from you before you leave

9 today so that we can either grant the amendment or not, and we can then

10 start with your client's evidence on Monday week.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we shall try to give you

12 a reply. But could we send this response by fax to you on maybe Monday

13 morning at the latest? If there are certain dilemmas, would you please

14 allow me to fax it to you by, shall we say, 1200 or 1400 hours Monday? So

15 you would have our response throughout the following week.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, yes, that would be reasonable. I thought you

17 were going to spend time with your children. That's why I suggested

18 that.

19 Very well. We'll adjourn now until Monday, the 25th of June.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I thought so too, Your Honour.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.58 p.m.

22 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of June,

23 2001, at 9.30 a.m.