1 Monday, 2 July 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
7 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.
9 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 WITNESS: MILORAD KRNOJELAC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]
13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krnojelac.
14 A. Good morning.
15 MS. KUO: Could I ask the usher to move the ELMO either forward or
16 back so that it's not in the way. Thank you.
17 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, last week just before the break, we were talking
18 about the one night or the one evening when you stayed late at the KP Dom,
19 and you said it was to get the bakery started. You remember that; right?
20 A. I remember that we were talking about that, yes.
21 Q. And when you testified to this event in your direct examination,
22 you said that it was in late May of 1992; is that right?
23 A. I think that is right. It is most probably right, late May 1992.
24 Q. When you gave an interview to the investigators of the
25 Prosecutor's office on the first day, that is the 5th of June, 2000, you
1 told them that night or that evening when you stayed late was most
2 probably around the end of June, beginning of July. Do you remember
3 saying that?
4 A. I do not remember saying that. However, since that certainly
5 happened earlier, because there was no electricity in May, this was
6 probably an error in dates, because this certainly happened much earlier,
7 before the tragedy in my family took place. So that's why it was probably
8 the end of May.
9 Q. But, sir, you knew about that connection with the time even in
10 June of last year when you talked to the investigators, and yet you said
11 it was in June, possibly July. You've changed the date, haven't you?
12 A. I did not change it on purpose, for sure, but it is possible that
13 I made a mistake.
14 Q. You talked about how the -- you stayed until 9.00, because that's
15 when the bakers were baking the bread. Isn't it true that the bakers,
16 when they came, came much later?
17 According to the city baker himself, they came at 3.00 in the
18 morning whenever they had to bake bread, not 9.00.
19 A. Please, first of all, the bakery had to be started up. Then if
20 I'm not mistaken, at least 12 hours were required for the bakery to get
21 going, because it uses solid fuel, wood. Then it is only after 12 hours
22 that the bakery could be used; that is to say, that is when bread could
23 actually be baked, because that is the furnace that requires more time to
24 attain a certain temperature in order to make it possible for bread to be
1 As soon as Relja said that he didn't need any material from the
2 central warehouse, because you may recall that I said because of those
3 keys I stayed back anyway, he stayed on to finish some minor details and
4 also to get the fire started in the furnace in the bakery.
5 I hope you will understand what I'm saying. This is a furnace
6 that is fired by solid fuel, firewood, that is.
7 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you often met with Muslim detainees upon their
8 request; right?
9 A. I cannot say that that was often. If I met a few people, with a
10 person perhaps once, with somebody else perhaps two or three times, I
11 wouldn't call that often. Because when I say "often," I would imply doing
12 something several times during the course of one day, so I wouldn't call
13 it often. I don't know how people understand this word "often."
14 Q. According to your words in your interview with the Office of the
15 Prosecutor last year, you said, "I would habitually meet with more
16 prominent people in town who were detained at the KP Dom."
17 A. Well, for me, prominent people are doctors, teachers, and any
18 well-intentioned person, any person of goodwill and good intentions.
19 Q. My emphasis was on the word "habitually." You met perhaps not
20 often but habitually; right?
21 A. Well, what happened, happened. Perhaps I used that word
22 "habitually," because these people who were detained, it depended on
23 whether they were allowed all these things by the guards and by the guard
24 on duty at the entrance desk, whether they would allow them whatever. So
25 whoever was allowed by the guard on duty to come, and if he asked me
1 whether I would see him, I did not refuse to see anyone, regardless of who
2 asked to see me.
3 Q. So the procedure for a detainee to see you was that the request
4 would be made through the guards, and then the guards would ask you if you
5 would meet with them; right?
6 A. If the guard would come and tell me, "Milorad, can you see
7 such-and-such a person?" I would say yes, and then he would bring that
8 person who he had mentioned to me and then I would briefly talk to that
9 person. If there was coffee, then we would have a coffee and a
10 cigarette. These were not long conversations. It would be about as long
11 as it takes to smoke a cigarette, and you can smoke a cigarette in, say,
12 five to ten minutes, not more than that.
13 Q. These were not strictly social calls, were they? When people
14 asked to see you, it wasn't always in your personal capacity as a friend
15 or an acquaintance; often they asked to see you -- or most of the time
16 they asked to see you because you were the warden. Right?
17 A. I think, though, that it wasn't all because of that, although
18 there is some of that as well. They wanted to come and see me primarily
19 so that some of them who were coming for the first time would ask me
20 whether I knew what their situation was, and it also happened that they
21 would ask for toiletries that they needed, if there weren't any. And it
22 wasn't any special kind of socialising or long conversations. It's not
23 because they knew I was warden, because every one of them who came to see
24 me, I assert to you here from this stand, that I told them all the truth,
25 that I was warden in charge of the economic part. They knew that this was
1 rented out to the military and they knew that it was the military that was
2 in charge of them, the military command. I did not conceal that from
3 them, never, not from a single one of them.
4 Q. So the people, the detainees who came to see you, came to ask you
5 for help; right?
6 A. Well, usually help. As I told you, those who would come for the
7 first time would ask me whether I knew what their fate was.
8 Q. Among the people whom you met with were [redacted]
9 [redacted], Husein Lojo, Safet Avdic, RJ, and Dr. Avdo Softalija; right? These
10 were some of the prominent members of the community whom you met with.
11 A. Please, I do not remember that all these people came to see me. I
12 don't remember that Mr. Safet Avdic came to see me, and I don't remember
13 this other doctor that you mentioned. Softalija did you say?
14 Q. The chief of the medical centre in Foca, the person that we
15 discussed earlier. Sadinlija. I'm sorry. I mispronounced it.
16 A. Sadinlija. Dr. Sadinlija. Oh, Dr. Sadinlija, yes. He was at the
17 health centre. He was not at the hospital. During those first days, he
18 came to see me at the office. I think it was the end of April, or rather,
19 in the month of April. The first conversation I had was precisely with
20 Mr. Sadinlija. He asked to speak with me.
21 Q. You also met with [redacted],
22 who was a prominent Muslim politician; right?
23 A. I don't remember that encounter. I personally think that I did
24 not meet with them.
25 Q. You also met with three members of the Cengic family, right,
1 before their release? They were related to the assembly deputy Muhamed
2 Cengic, from Miljevina.
3 A. Please, it seems to me that we discussed that. That meeting was
4 when the commander of the Tactical Group came, and when he said that he
5 would like to have a meeting in my office with three men, three men who
6 were supposed to be released. I think that we discussed that and I
7 explained that. However, if necessary, I can explain this same situation
8 once again as to how this happened and that they were taken to Belgrade,
9 in the words of the commander. Whether they were actually taken or not, I
10 don't know.
11 Q. The Commander of the Tactical Group, Marko Kovac, came to you and
12 asked if he could finish a job here and if you could have those three
13 detainees brought to him; isn't that right?
14 A. Please don't do that. He said to me, "Milorad, can I have a
15 meeting with three detained persons who are supposed to be released and
16 sent to Belgrade?" In the meantime, these three persons had already come
17 to my office, and a moment before that, I had ordered coffee. And then
18 when they had their meeting, their conversation, I left. I really don't
19 know what they discussed, believe me.
20 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, on the 6th of June, 2000, during your interview
21 with investigators of the Prosecutor's office, you gave the following
22 description of that meeting, and I'm reading from the English, page 31:
23 "One morning, the commander of the Tactical Group came to my office,
24 greeted me, and asked me, `Milorad, can I do something here, finish a job
25 here?' I said, `Yes, you can. What is it about?' He said,`I would need
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 three detainees to come here.' Of course I approved it, and these three
2 detainees were brought to my office later."
3 That's how you described that; right?
4 A. I don't see any difference. The meaning of what I said then and
5 now is the same, although I perhaps have not used the same words. It's
6 logical that I cannot remember it all word for word, but I think that the
7 meaning is the same, and my answer is, therefore, the same now as well.
8 Q. The Commander of the Tactical Group, Marko Kovac, came to you to
9 ask you if he could finish a job there and you said yes; right?
10 A. What else could I have said? I said yes.
11 Q. And when he asked specifically for three Muslim detainees to be
12 brought to your office, you approved it; right?
13 A. Please, he did not ask for that from my office. I assume - this
14 is the most probable option - he told somebody before hand, either the
15 guard on duty or some other person, that these men should be brought
16 there. It was not that he said from my office where they should be
17 brought, or he didn't inform anyone from my office. That means that he
18 had agreed with someone, as he was entering the building of the KP Dom,
19 probably the duty officer or someone else - I don't know to whom - but
20 people -- these men were brought to him to my office.
21 Q. These men were brought to your office only because you approved
22 it, not because anybody made any arrangements beforehand; right?
23 According to your own description, that was the way things happened.
24 A. In my personal opinion, when I say that he had agreed upon
25 something beforehand, that meant that he agreed with the guard on duty
1 where these people should be brought to him, and they were brought to see
2 him in that office, and I did not refuse him. I did not say that he could
3 not talk to these people in this office, because that's a biggish office.
4 Not biggish. It's a pretty big office where four or five people can sit
5 at a table and have a meeting, a conversation.
6 I don't know what they discussed, but I was just told that they
7 were supposed to be released and driven to Belgrade. To who, where, I
8 don't know.
9 Q. According to your description, there was never any mention of any
10 arrangements being made beforehand, and there was also no description of
11 him ordering you to do anything. He came to ask you permission and you
12 gave it to him; isn't that right?
13 A. He never gave me any orders. He never came before. He only came
14 that morning.
15 Q. Let's go back to the meetings that you had with the other
16 detainees. You have told investigators of the Prosecutor that you ate
17 fresh and healthy food when you were working at the KP Dom; right?
18 A. I think that everybody ate fresh and healthy food, because in the
19 warehouses, not too much food was ever stockpiled, so it could not be old
20 or past its expiry date. I never felt any consequences as a result of the
21 fact that I ate that food, so I consider it to be healthy and fresh. And
22 that is very important for the human organism, for food to be healthy and
23 fresh, in my opinion.
24 Q. But you knew, from what the detainees were telling you, that they
25 did not receive enough food to eat; right?
1 A. Oh, please, don't. I keep saying that no one ever told me that
2 they were not receiving enough food to eat.
3 Q. Isn't it true that [redacted] told you that there should be the
4 food -- the leftover food should be given to the detainees? And as a
5 doctor, he said the food wouldn't spoil, but that they didn't have enough
6 food, so they were willing to eat even leftovers. Isn't that right?
7 A. We have to understand two things here. During the first days,
8 detained persons got food from the kitchen of the military that was at
9 Livade, and of course, it might have happened - I did not see it
10 happen - that food that was not eaten was thrown out of the containers
11 that it was brought in.
12 However, I never heard of any surplus food from our kitchen being
13 thrown away, and I did not hear from any detainee that he had too little
14 food, because three meals is three meals, after all.
15 I cannot assert this, and I was not in charge of monitoring that,
16 but it is possible that perhaps there was not always enough, perhaps, but
17 none of the detained persons complained that they did not get enough
19 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, on the 6th of June, 2000, during your interview
20 with investigators - this is on page 35 in the English version of
21 Exhibit P46 - you stated: "On one occasion [redacted] said that the food
22 should not be thrown away, that it should be preserved for the following
23 day. I replied, `Doctor, if the food is preserved for the following day,
24 it's going to rot. It's going to be spoiled, and one should not give such
25 rotten, spoiled food for people to eat.' And he said, `It won't hurt
2 A. Since the days were hot and freezers and refrigerators were not
3 working, that is correct, from my point of view, that the food would
4 spoil. But I told you, most probably, because afterwards, never. When
5 the kitchen started working within the compound of the KP Dom, no one ever
6 told me that food was thrown away when they brought it from Livade, from
7 the kitchen where they did the cooking for the army as well, because
8 during the first days, I cannot state with certainty, but until the
9 kitchen started working at the KP Dom, food was brought from Livade where
10 it was prepared for the military as well, and that is where the command of
11 the rear was too. That is this area called Livade. That is where these
12 warehouses are, too, where the food was kept.
13 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, wasn't it obvious to you, based on the conversation
14 that you had with [redacted], that the detainees did not have enough food
15 to eat and that's why he was asking that food be kept for the following
16 day? Wasn't that the only conclusion you could draw from that kind of
18 A. I could not conclude that it was that way. My conclusion was,
19 rather, that he wanted it to be used economically so that there would be
20 no waste, so that food would be used economically. Not that somebody did
21 not have enough food, because I cannot imagine that somebody was that
22 inhuman not to give people food and to spill it, on the other hand, to
23 throw it away. Because I thought that they did not feel it necessary to
24 use all that food and that perhaps that's why it was thrown away, although
25 I didn't know about it. I can't say now that the doctor did not say the
1 truth, but I must say that I heard a lot of things when he appeared here
2 that caused great concern, in my opinion, if I may say so.
3 Q. Isn't it true that during this interview when you told the
4 investigators what I just quoted, the question that was asked of you was:
5 Did [redacted] complain about the food? And that was the answer that you
6 gave. It wasn't whether you had any discussions about food management or
7 the use of resources, but it was about whether he complained about the
8 food, and in fact the conversation you had was him complaining about the
9 food; isn't that right?
10 A. That's right. And he said that it should not be thrown away. But
11 my conclusion was in that sense, that he wanted, from the point of view of
12 good husbandry, that no food should be thrown away. That's how everybody
13 should think. And perhaps the food had already gone bad, because if it
14 had stayed in that kind of dish overnight, that was closed in these dishes
15 where it was brought, perhaps it could have gone a bit sour. And most
16 probably the cooks came to the conclusion that this food should be thrown
17 away rather than given to people which could have caused a disease or
18 something, and I think that that would have been a far greater misfortune
19 if somebody got dysentery or some other kind of abdominal ailment.
20 Nowadays also I throw away food that I'm not sure about. It's better to
21 throw it away than to risk something. If you see that it's not tasty,
22 it's better to eat plain bread than to eat other things as well and then
23 get an upset stomach and get sick.
24 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, when you met with your former colleague, RJ, in
25 your office, he asked for food that you had left over in your office;
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 right? He asked for it to be taken back to his room so he could eat it;
3 A. Believe me, I'm not aware of that at all, and I'm so surprised
4 that my colleague said that. I do not remember something like that at
5 all, that something like that had happened and that he had asked for that,
6 because I personally think that had he asked me for that, that I would
7 have obtained some tinned food through the warehouse keeper for my
8 colleague. I simply can't believe this. Why did my colleague say that?
9 Well, let it be. That is his affair. But I really cannot remember that
10 that took place, nor do I remember any such thing.
11 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you never saw Muslims walking around in the yard
12 for exercise; right? The only time they were in the yard was going to and
13 from the canteen for meals; isn't that right?
14 A. I have to tell you that at times I did, but it was very seldom
15 that I saw them going for a meal. The rest, I never even looked at that
16 yard except when passing by on my way to the furniture factory - and that
17 was very seldom - and the dining-room. And through the window -- I didn't
18 look through the window into the yard. Very seldom. No, I can't remember
19 ever casting a deliberate look, unless it was as I would be standing up
20 and then I just cast a glimpse. But yes, they could walk around without
21 my seeing them, because my office overviews the facilities where they are
22 accommodated rather than the playground beyond the dining-room and towards
23 the furniture factory. So perhaps it did happen that I had a look at
24 these facilities, accommodation facilities, but not that I walked to my
25 window to look through it with a purpose in mind deliberately, because
1 that is the position of the windows in the room, so that they could walk
2 without my seeing them.
3 Q. So in other words, your windows from the warden's office faced
4 directly onto the prisoners' quarters rather than the yard; right?
5 A. Especially where there was this desk. Yes, precisely. That is
6 how you could see, from that desk. And that is the central part of the
7 building, not that one more to the left which is, I think, building number
8 1 on your sketches or what. But that is the building where the clinic was
9 there. It couldn't be seen from my window, through that window which was
10 next to the desk, as far as I can remember the arrangement of the view.
11 Q. And just so we're clear about what the view was from the warden's
12 office, I'd like to have you shown Exhibit 6/2, P6/2.
13 MS. KUO: I'm sorry. I think I made a mistake. The warden's
14 office, because it's on the second floor, it should be 6/3.
15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, could you show us -- you've given us a description
16 now of what you could see from your office. Could you show us now what
17 you could see, just so we're very clear about that?
18 A. This is -- no. I thought you were showing something to me. I
19 think that this is my office, my office, where the pointer is now.
20 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I understand that at one point you had an office on
21 the ground floor and then you moved -- in the early days, and then you
22 moved upstairs to the warden's office on the second floor. The place
23 you're pointing to now, is that the ground floor office or the second
24 floor office? I know this is a floor plan for the second floor, but I
25 want to be clear about the location of the office you're talking about.
1 A. I'm pointing this thing that you have given me, that is, the
2 ground floor of the second floor [as interpreted]. Do you agree or will
3 you give me another ground plan? But I can also explain on this one. I
4 can explain the first office and the second office with this plan. The
5 first office is on the ground floor, where, according to others, was the
6 censorship, and the second office, the second warden's office, was on the
7 second floor of the administrative building. And you told me that this is
8 the second floor. So my office -- my office in the administrative
9 building is this one here. And the desk was here, in this part, next to
10 this wall, the desk.
11 MS. KUO: I'll just describe this for the record. The witness is
12 pointing to -- it would be the far left side of the right-hand wing of
13 that office. So if you come into the KP Dom, it's directly to the right
14 of the entrance but on the second floor.
15 JUDGE HUNT: It's also the room that almost every other witness in
16 the place has identified as the warden's office. I think we can move on
17 from this point.
18 MS. KUO: I'd like to have the record reflect that the place where
19 the desk is indicated by this witness is precisely that wall on the
20 extreme left-hand side of the room.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Krnojelac, could you show us what your visibility was
22 from that room if you look out the window?
23 A. Well, that is what I'm saying, that this building, this guard
24 building, protrudes slightly, and somehow during the construction it
25 penetrated the yard, so that I couldn't see this part from my office,
1 especially this part here, from this office that I had. That is, I could
2 see something in this direction.
3 MS. KUO: The witness, when he said that he could not see, he
4 pointed in the direction of what's been indicated as Room 13, but what he
5 could see was more in the direction of Room 14.
6 Q. Yes?
7 A. If you will allow me, please, to add just that it depends whether
8 I sat down or stood up. If I sat at the desk, then I couldn't see
9 anything, because this view was obstructed because of what is below the
10 window, and one could not see anything from the sitting position. And it
11 was only if I had stood up and was upright that I could see it, but not
12 this part that I showed you before. So you must understand me. It
13 depends on whether I was sitting down or whether I was in an upright
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krnojelac. And isn't it true that from one of the
16 windows in that warden's office there was the barrel of a machine-gun that
17 pointed out precisely over the prisoners' quarters, and this was the
18 machine-gun gun that RJ asked you about when he visited your office, and
19 you told him that it was only a barrel but it was there to scare the
20 detainees? Isn't that right?
21 A. I say under full responsibility that there was absolutely no pipe
22 and nobody ever asked me about it. There was no barrel, when I was
23 asked. But when he laughed, I decided by his laughter, I decided that he
24 had made it up or that somebody had made him say that, because I don't
25 believe it. But I am affirming that there was no barrel.
1 MS. KUO: Thank you. We don't need this diagram any more.
2 Q. Are you saying that RJ made the comment about the machine-gun but
3 there was no machine-gun even when he talked about it, that he just
4 randomly made a comment that there was a machine-gun?
5 A. Come out of the question. Machine-guns, or any barrels. There
6 was no barrel. I guarantee that. Nothing like that in my office, but if
7 I made add, this censorship, that is the first office, my view was even
8 more obstructed there. My view was even more obstructed from the
9 censorship office. Because you mentioned which room it was about, and I'm
10 explaining it. From the censorship even less, because of the window and
11 because of the device which was next to the window and because of another
12 window, the -- my field of vision was even smaller.
13 Q. Are you saying, when you talked about RJ, that he did make a
14 comment about the machine-gun and then laughed about it?
15 A. During his presentation, when I watched him, that was my
16 impression and my conclusion, but I'm saying that it was not in the
17 office, and I do say it under full responsibility.
18 Q. My question to you, Mr. Krnojelac is: Did RJ make a comment about
19 the machine-gun when he was in your office?
20 A. No, no, no. No, no. There was no conversation about that.
21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, during the winter between 1992 and 1993, there was
22 no heating in the prisoners' quarters of the KP Dom; isn't that right?
23 A. If you mean the area where the detainees were accommodated, what
24 I'm saying is that from time to time, I would see smoke coming out of the
25 chimney. Now, what rooms did the smoke come from, do I not know, but
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 there was smoke coming out of the chimney.
2 Q. And was this smoke from wood burning? Is that what you mean?
3 A. Yes, yes, yes, in furnaces using firewood, like the one that
4 existed in my administrative building. There was this stove, and we used
5 firewood for it.
6 Q. There were some -- there was one room in the prisoners' quarters
7 that was used for convicted Serb prisoners; right?
8 A. The distribution of those quarters for people serving the
9 sentences pronounced on them before the conflict, if you mean those
10 persons, yes, there was this room, but I do not know exactly which,
11 because I've never been there, as I have already said.
12 Q. You were in charge, you told us, of those people serving their
13 sentences, and you're telling us that you never visited them in their room
14 to see how they were accommodated?
15 A. No, I never went to visit them, because they had others. As I
16 said, late Novica had assumed full responsibility. After that, he tasked
17 the Rehabilitating Officer Zecevic, so that I didn't. And those who came
18 now and then to use alcohol, because I said, and I think you understand
19 when I say that at the farm, it was a semi-open institution. There was
20 alcohol, so -- yes. I'm sorry.
21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, the question was not about the farm. We've talked
22 about the farm. My question was about the KP Dom compound and about the
23 people serving their sentences who were housed in the KP Dom.
24 You were in charge of those people; right? Not Mr. Mujovic and
25 Mr. Zecevic who were in charge at the farm. You were responsible,
1 according to your own words, for those people serving sentences, and so
2 you were responsible for those people serving sentences who were indeed
3 housed at the KP Dom; right?
4 A. Yes, except that another person was responsible for them, for
5 those who were either in KP Dom. It was Mr. Lazo Divljan who was
6 responsible for them, and he used them for work.
7 Q. You were, nevertheless, responsible for their welfare, right, to
8 make sure that they had enough to eat, that they were kept warm, that they
9 were treated humanely. That was still your responsibility; right?
10 A. Right. But nobody -- none of them ever complained to me about
11 having take a bath, about not having heating or food like everybody else
12 accommodated in the KP Dom.
13 Q. You put in measures to make sure that they had enough to eat and
14 that they were kept warm and that they could be treated humanely; right?
15 A. Well, I did not take any special measures, because I'd already
16 said in the beginning, but I was a teacher and I knew a little about it.
17 And it was people who had spent some time in the KP Dom who would know
18 these things, and they simply came to meet me halfway because of all the
19 circumstances and all my troubles, and they just came to help me in that
21 Q. The prisoners serving their sentences had access to television and
22 radio, right, while they were detained or imprisoned?
23 A. If you mean this period of time that I was there, I wouldn't know
24 about that.
25 Q. Yet Husein Lojo, a Muslim teacher who came and spoke with you,
1 asked you for TV and radio, and you said you couldn't provide it to him;
3 A. I did not say that I could provide it for him. Excuse me. I said
4 that it was jurisdiction of the military command, and they are the ones
5 who can provide it and that they should provide it, not me, because how
6 could I provide it for them?
7 Q. You also knew that the Muslim detainees didn't have access to
8 visitors. They were not permitted visitors after the first few weeks;
9 right? In other words, in May of 1992, they were allowed visitors, but
10 then after that, nobody could receive visitors from the outside. You knew
11 that; right?
12 A. I'm not aware of that, they did not -- that they did not receive
13 visitors, except for a few days when it was said that they had contracted
14 lice, and it was then that visits were prohibited. After that, I do not
15 recall any prohibition of visits, nor do I know who could have prohibited
16 those visits. If the visits were prohibited, then this prohibition could
17 only come from the military command.
18 Q. You also knew that the Serbs serving their sentences were allowed
19 to walk around in the KP Dom compound, right, while the Muslim prisoners
20 were detained in their rooms?
21 A. They had no contact with them either. Then I did not know it.
22 The internal organisation, either in the case of ones or the case of
23 others was not something that I did not know.
24 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, on behalf of the Serb prisoners serving their
25 sentences, you wrote recommendations for their early release based on the
1 work that they did at the farm; right?
2 A. You mean persons serving sentences.
3 Q. That was precisely my question.
4 A. Well, that was done beforehand, too, but since people knew more
5 about that, I told you, those people who worked there, and they made the
6 list and the report, the analysis for the Ministry of Justice, they
7 thought that they should write who would be -- who was eligible for -- for
8 some lenience at different periods of time, and it had to do with their
9 conduct and the way in which they performed their tasks at the farm.
10 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I would like to have
11 the witness shown Exhibit D85. The first page of the English on the
13 Q. This is a document that you prepared, Mr. Krnojelac, listing the
14 persons serving their sentences, and for each one -- for most of them
15 you've made a recommendation for a reduction in sentence because of the
16 work done and the behaviour of the individual; right?
17 A. I think I just said that. I did not write this, but I accept it
18 from my collaborators, this information which they had written.
19 Q. You never prepared any sort of documents like this on behalf of
20 the Muslim detainees; right? There was never any review of their
21 sentences based on their acceptable behaviour, was there?
22 A. Excellent question, and my answer to it is as follows: For things
23 that I was responsible for, I had to do something like this and authorise
24 it, but all those in the Ministry of Justice knew, they had been told
25 verbally, and they told me that this could be done by persons who worked
1 with persons serving sentences, and I was responsible for them. And for
2 those other persons, because I was not responsible for them, I could not
3 make any proposals for those persons who were detained.
4 Q. As far as you know, there were never any documents like this --
5 I'm not asking you if you did it yourself. You've already told us that
6 you did not. But as far as you know, nobody ever prepared documents like
7 this regarding the Muslim detainees; right?
8 A. I'm not -- I do not know if anybody did that. I do not know.
9 Q. Nobody ever came to you to ask you about the work that the
10 detainees did for the furniture factory or the farm or the metalwork shop
11 and whether the detainees did acceptable work that could go toward their
12 early release; right? Nobody ever asked you about that, did they?
13 A. Neither did anyone ask me nor had anyone reason to ask me, because
14 those people knew that I was not responsible for their work --
15 Q. Sir --
16 A. -- because there was somebody else who was responsible for them.
17 Q. My question was: You've told us that you were in charge
18 ultimately of the furniture factory and the farm and the metal workshop.
19 And you've also told us that Muslim detainees worked in all three of those
20 places. And my question to you is: No one ever came to you to ask you
21 about the performance of those Muslim detainees for the purposes of
22 reviewing whether they should be released; right? No one ever asked you
23 for your opinion about the work they did; right?
24 A. Nobody asked me for my opinion, but whether heads, work units were
25 asked about that, I wouldn't know.
1 Q. You're saying that even though you were the person who was
2 ultimately in charge of those three economic units, that nobody asked you
3 in your official capacity but might possibly have asked someone else?
4 A. Nobody ever turned to me with that.
5 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, during one of your conversations with your former
6 colleague RJ, he told you that he could hear the sound of people being
7 beaten; isn't that right?
8 A. My colleague, my highly appreciated colleague, never said that to
10 Q. He never told you that people were scared when they heard these
12 A. We never, ever talked about that.
13 Q. Didn't RJ also tell you about a specific incident when one
14 detainee tried to get ahead in the line to get food and was beaten by
15 guards because he did that? Did he tell you that?
16 A. Believe me, I am telling you that he did not, and I do not
17 recollect that there was any conversation with my colleague about this or
18 any other similar situation.
19 Q. You asked RJ to give you information about what the detainees'
20 conditions were like, didn't you?
21 A. Never, not even that. I never told him even that, nor did he ever
22 tell me about that either.
23 Q. RJ was a colleague of yours, a close colleague, for many years at
24 the school; right?
25 A. Very close colleagues, colleagues of many years. [redacted]
3 Q. You were friends with him in addition to being colleagues; right?
4 A. Well, in a sense, friendly colleagues, because if we are
5 colleagues, then we're friends too. We didn't visit one another at
6 home - that is, we did not carry out our friendship in our homes - but in
7 school, outings with children, excursions, or in pubs, and so we would
8 spend some time as friends.
9 Q. He was someone you trusted; right?
10 A. He is not the only one. There are a number of people whom I
11 trusted, and he was one of those that, yes, whom I trusted.
12 Q. During the times that you met when he was detained at the KP Dom,
13 you sometimes talked about what was happening at the KP Dom; right?
14 A. No. No. He never said to me or talked to me about what was going
15 on, except that we would sit down, have some coffee, and talk. And yes,
16 there was frequent mention of his -- the state of his health, and that is
17 how that medicine came up, what the colleague mentioned. It was really
18 very difficult to find that medicine in the area, but he managed to get it
19 from somewhere - whether from Serbia or Montenegro, I don't know - but she
20 [as interpreted] found somewhere that medicine.
21 Q. And you never asked RJ how he was doing? Aside from his health,
22 you never asked him about what life was like for him in the KP Dom?
23 A. Whenever he came to see me, he was always in such a good mood that
24 there was no problem. He had taken care of his family, he knew where his
25 children were, where his wife was. So on the contrary; he always seemed
1 to be in a very good mood - that's the way he seemed to me - like he did
2 before the war. He was generally in a good mood.
3 Q. You told him sometimes about things that you knew that had
4 happened at the KP Dom; right?
5 A. I keep repeating this to you. I did not know. I never talked to
6 him and he never talked to me about these things that were going on, if
7 they were going on, because I do not know that they were going on.
8 Q. You knew that Halim Konjo had died at the KP Dom and you told RJ
9 about it, didn't you?
10 A. I did not know that he had died. I heard that he had committed
11 suicide, and it was only natural that I should tell my colleague about
12 that, because there was no reason for me to hide that. I found that out
13 through Mr. Jokanovic, that a commission came and that he committed
14 suicide. I did not hide this. With your permission, may I say that I
15 never hid anything that I knew, or rather, what I heard from others in
16 terms of what they conveyed to me.
17 Q. When Halim Konjo died at the KP Dom, that news spread very quickly
18 that very morning; right?
19 A. I'm saying once again: He didn't die. I heard that he committed
20 suicide. I don't know whether it was that morning, that same morning. I
21 mean, I found out after the commission had already come, or rather, after
22 the commission had finished its work. That's when I found out from Gojko
23 Jokanovic that a commission came because of the suicide of Mr. Konjo. I
24 don't know anything more about that.
25 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you learned about that the very morning after
1 Mr. Konjo died; right? You told the investigators during your June 6th,
2 2000 interview, on page 38 in the English version: "When I came to work
3 in the morning, I found out about that case."
4 A. Possibly, but I'm telling you how I found out. Mr. Jokanovic said
5 to me that he had committed suicide and that a commission came to carry
6 out an investigation. Whether it was immediately in the morning, at 7.00,
7 or whether it was at 9.00, or when the commission came, that I don't know.
8 Q. And you stated further on that same page: "It happened in the
9 morning. During the change of guards, the word was spread that it had
10 taken place." So the news of Mr. Konjo's death spread very quickly that
11 same morning after he died, right, and you heard about it then as well?
12 A. I just said now how I found out about it.
13 Q. Mr. RJ also told you that people were disappearing overnight,
14 didn't he, that sometimes detainees were taken out and no one ever heard
15 from them again?
16 A. He never said that to me, or am I aware of that.
17 Q. During your conversations with [redacted], he also told you that
18 the Muslim detainees required medical attention, medical treatment; right?
19 A. Mr. [redacted] did not talk to me about that.
20 Q. [redacted] never mentioned to you that the detainees needed
21 medical attention?
22 A. I do not remember that.
23 Q. The pharmacy that you said was a part of the Drina Economic Unit
24 served both Muslim detainees and Serbs serving their sentences; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You did not make any distinction in the distribution of medicines
2 between those two groups, did you?
3 A. Since I said that I gave the key to Mr. Jokanovic, then I did not
4 distribute the medicines either. He distributed the medicines, and I
5 never told him to make any kind of distinction. I told him to give
6 medicine to everyone for as long as there was enough medicine, or rather,
7 in line with what the doctor would prescribe.
8 Q. I'd like to ask you about the time when Ekrem Zekovic escaped from
9 the KP Dom in July of 1993. During that time, you were still working at
10 the KP Dom, you've told us, and when you found out that he escaped, this
11 concerned -- this worried you, didn't it, that someone should have escaped
12 directly from the metalwork shop, of which you were ultimately
13 responsible; right?
14 A. I would like to ask you kindly to say the following: Already then
15 I was working on the preparations for the handover of my job, because I
16 knew by then that I had been discharged, or rather, that I had received a
17 decision stating that I was no longer warden, and it is precisely for that
18 reason that I called Relja that morning so that we could go to Brod in
19 order to settle our debts and finish all the other business that we had at
20 Brod, business that he was familiar with. Relja and I went to Brod. We
21 completed this business and we asked if there were some other outstanding
22 problems to have all of this prepared as soon as possible. And I had no
23 duties involved with his escape from the metalwork shop. It's not that I
24 was sad, so that I could say that I was sad that he had escaped, but
25 there's just one thing: I would have felt sorry had he gotten killed, but
1 that was his right, I imagine, to try to escape if he had the opportunity
3 Q. Relja Goljanin was still in charge of the metalwork shop at that
4 time; right?
5 A. Relja Goljanin was still in charge of the metalwork shop. In this
6 period while I was there, it was called the metalwork shop. It's still
7 called the metalwork shop. But it was the metalwork shop before too, and
8 it was also the plant for maintenance of various things at the KP Dom.
9 Q. You and Mr. Goljanin were at Brod that very day when Mr. Zekovic
10 escaped; right?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Mr. Zoran Sekulovic had not started working, had not been
13 appointed the warden yet at that point; right?
14 A. My personal opinion is that they would not have given me discharge
15 papers without giving others -- or somebody else an appointment.
16 Q. I'm not asking --
17 A. When I was being discharged --
18 Q. I'm not asking your opinion; I'm asking you about facts. When
19 Mr. Zekovic escaped, Zoran Sekulovic had not started as the new warden
20 yet; right?
21 A. He hadn't come to the KP Dom yet.
22 Q. And there was nobody who was appointed as some sort of acting
23 warden between you and him; right? You remained in your position as
24 warden until Mr. Sekulovic started as warden; right?
25 A. I'm not aware that anyone else was appointed.
1 Q. So when you and Mr. Goljanin found out that in your absence one of
2 the detainees escaped from the metalwork shop, this was naturally
3 something that concerned you; right?
4 A. I was not concerned. Relja had told me that Zeka had escaped from
5 the metalwork shop.
6 Q. And since you were technically the superior to Mr. Goljanin and
7 the metalwork shop, this also concerned you; right?
8 A. It did not concern me, because it is the security that is supposed
9 to take care of that. Why is it called security? They should secure
10 things and make sure that nobody can escape.
11 Q. When Mr. Zekovic was brought back the next day, you were waiting
12 for his arrival at the KP Dom gate, weren't you? When he was brought
13 back, you saw him immediately; right?
14 A. No. I was not waiting and I did not see him immediately. At that
15 time I had finished my work at the accounting service, or rather, that
16 part of my work that I was supposed to complete, and I was supposed to go
17 home. And in the hall, after 30 or 40 metres, in that part where you
18 enter, where the main entrance is to the hall, I saw a small group of
19 people, and they took a man somewhere behind that entrance office, the
20 guard's office at the entrance. And I said, "What was going on?" and then
21 I was told, "The police captured Zekovic and they brought him right behind
22 the guard office."
23 Since this was the end of working hours, and since I knew that I
24 had received the decision stating that I was no longer warden, I asked the
25 guard on duty whether I could see him, and he said, "Yes, you can." And I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 walked in there and there was a guard in front of the office - I can't
2 remember which one - and I said, "The duty officer said that I could go
3 see him." And he opened the door and I saw him sitting on the bed. I
4 offered him a cigarette and --
5 Q. We'll get to that. Mr. Krnojelac, when Mr. Zekovic was being
6 brought in, one of the guards bringing him in was Burilo, right, Milenko
8 A. Believe me that I cannot remember at all who was on duty then and
9 which guards were in the hall.
10 Q. But you do know Milenko Burilo, don't you, who he is?
11 A. At this moment I can't remember which guards were there and
12 whether Burilo was there. I'm not saying that he was there or that he
13 wasn't there. I'm saying I can't remember.
14 Q. I'm asking you not about that date in particular but whether you
15 know the guard Milenko Burilo at all. You recognise him; right?
16 A. I knew Burilo before the war as well. Not particularly, but I
17 knew him, and I knew that he worked at the KP Dom as a guard.
18 Q. Isn't it true that even before the war he had a reputation for
19 being violent toward prisoners?
20 A. I am not aware of that because I did not work on that during the
21 war, and I was not asking people who was what kind of person or worker in
22 some other organisation.
23 Q. During your interview with investigators on the 13th of July of
24 2000, on page 40 in the English version, 36 in B/C/S, you describe Burilo
25 as being sturdy, corpulent, and strong. Do you remember that
2 A. Do I remember that description? I don't know, but I do know that
3 he was strong, on the fair side. He had sort of reddish hair, if you
4 could put it that way, but he was a strong, corpulent man and kind of
5 plumpish. That's true.
6 Q. And you know that he was a guard during this time, right, at the
7 KP Dom?
8 A. At that time, he worked at the KP Dom security. I mean if you are
9 asking me about that day in particular, I can't remember, but while I was
10 there, I would see him amongst the KP Dom security men.
11 Q. You told the investigators, regarding Burilo, on that same page:
12 "I don't know what he had with these people before the war, and I
13 especially don't know what he did during the war."
14 But you knew that he was a policeman at the KP Dom during the war;
16 A. That is correct. I agree and that is true.
17 Q. When Ekrem Zekovic was brought in, isn't it true that Burilo beat
18 him at the entrance and that you and the guard Milivoj Milic had to step
19 in and try to get him to stop beating him?
20 A. There is no reason for me not to say the way things actually
21 were. In the meantime, I had taken some 30 steps in the hall, and I did
22 not see that. I only saw that they took him by the entrance, the room for
23 guards on duty, by that room. And then I don't know who was there
24 exactly. They brought Zeka. And I already told you about this. I asked,
25 and I went there, and I saw him sitting there.
1 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Zekovic was unconscious when he was first
2 brought into that room because he had been beaten upon arrival?
3 A. When I came, I found him sitting on the bed.
4 Q. One of the reasons you gave us for wanting to see Mr. Zekovic was,
5 according to your testimony here, that you thought perhaps he had gotten
6 beaten. So you understood that there was a distinct possibility, when
7 someone tried to escape, that he would in fact get beaten when he was
8 caught; right?
9 A. Since I asked the officer on duty to see him, it is true that I
10 asked to see what condition he was in, physical and mental, and to chat to
11 him as a person, to smoke a cigarette together, to give him some relief,
12 perhaps, with that cigarette. Had I known -- I did not know, because
13 there were not such cases. I was not aware of any such case. It was the
14 first such case of a Muslim detainee trying to escape. But I did hear
15 that before, there were two escapes of Serbs who had been detained at the
16 KP Dom, that they escaped from the KP Dom.
17 Q. You knew, when you requested to see Mr. Zekovic, that there was a
18 very good possibility he would have been beaten when he was captured;
20 A. No, I did not know that. I simply wanted to see him and to smoke
21 a cigarette together with him. Did I know? No, I did not know.
22 Q. You didn't know Mr. Zekovic very well, did you, before he came to
23 KP Dom?
24 A. I did not. I did not.
25 Q. You didn't have very much contact with him while you were at the
1 KP Dom; right?
2 A. I even don't know whether I had a single contact with him. I
3 can't remember. I don't know about that.
4 Q. So this is somebody with whom you had no special relationship;
6 A. Right.
7 Q. And yet you specifically requested a guard to go see this Muslim
8 detainee after he was captured; right?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. You told Mr. Zekovic, when you met him in the cell, that it was
11 too bad that he had tried to escape, because otherwise he would have been
12 on a list of people to be released that very day; right? "That day" being
13 the --
14 A. No. No, that's not right. I did not say anything to Mr. Zekovic
15 about that. I just asked him, "How are you? Are you all right? Would
16 you like to smoke a cigarette?" I offered him a cigarette, and he said,
17 "I'm fine." I offered him a cigarette and he took the cigarette and we
18 both lit cigarettes.
19 Q. This was -- Mr. Zekovic wasn't surprised to see you, was he?
20 A. Don't know. I cannot know what other people feel. He only
21 surprised me with his statement here when he told me that I gave him a
22 Herzegovina cigarette. Believe me, I never smoked Herzegovina cigarettes
23 in all my life. Had he mentioned any other brand of cigarette, I would
24 have believed it, but he specifically remembers Herzegovina, and I know
25 that I never ever smoked Herzegovina.
1 And now as for his other feelings, whether he felt this way or
2 that way, I don't know, because I cannot assess other people's feelings.
3 Q. I should have asked it this way: He did not act surprised to see
4 you, did he?
5 A. Well, believe me, I didn't notice any special surprise.
6 Q. You didn't have to introduce yourself; right? He knew who you
8 A. I did not introduce myself. I believe he did know. He said that
9 he went to the metalwork shop, so he saw me and he knew. And he probably
10 knew me before the war, before the armed conflict broke out.
11 Q. The day that this conversation took place was the 8th of July,
12 1993; right?
13 A. Believe me, I can't remember the date. It was in the month of
14 July, at any rate, 1993. That's when he escaped.
15 Q. I'd like to show you Defence Exhibit D45. This is a list of
16 Muslims to be released from the KP Dom, signed by the Foca Tactical Group
17 Commander, Colonel Marko Kovac. It's a list of people dated the 12th of
18 July, 1993, and it says that they are to be released on the order of the
19 Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska of July 8, 1993, for an
20 exchange. Do you see that?
21 A. Yes, I see that.
22 Q. Mr. Zekovic's name is not on this list. That's clear; right?
23 A. As for what I see here, I don't see his name here.
24 Q. But this is precisely the decision that you were referring to or
25 that was referred to by Mr. Zekovic when he said that you told him on that
1 date that he would have been on the list but because he escaped, he was
2 not on the list any more; right?
3 A. I assert that I did not say that to him, nor did I know of this
4 exchange or this list at all. And we see where this decision was made and
5 where this list was made and who signed it as well. I can't see here on
6 the monitor, but there must be a signature there who signed it, who
7 approved of this exchange. I did not know about this. I didn't know
8 about a single one, for that matter. If ever I found out about an
9 exchange, I found out only after it had actually happened, never in
11 MS. KUO: Thank you. We don't need this document any more.
12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you said that this cigarette that you offered
13 Mr. Zekovic was a peace pipe. Can you explain why a peace pipe was
14 necessary? What kind of peace were you trying to achieve with him?
15 A. I can't remember having said a peace pipe, but perhaps I compared
16 that cigarette. If one smokes a cigarette together, that is some kind of
17 cooperation, nice cooperation, but I didn't refer to those peace pipes
18 that people talk about in this world. I was thinking of tranquility,
19 because I thought, I thought that perhaps he was frightened, that he was
20 scared somehow at that moment. And as for his momentary psychological
21 situation, perhaps it might have been easier for him. Because when I
22 light a cigarette, when I go to the cell now afterwards, I inhale four or
23 five times and I almost eat up the cigarette.
24 No. In no other way this peace pipe, only in terms of getting
25 more tranquil, from a health point of view, because we all tend to get
1 upset and these are problems. And of course this is more harmful than it
2 is good in terms of bringing us tranquility, but it's a habit that a
3 person acquires.
4 Q. You were trying to get Mr. Zekovic tranquil so you could find out
5 about the circumstances of his escape; right?
6 A. Believe me, I do not remember that we talked about anything else
7 but which way he had gone, where he spent that night. And he explained
8 this to me, that he crossed the Drina, that on the right bank of the Drina
9 he spent the night, and that in the morning he set out in that direction
10 to see his family. I didn't even know. He told me then that his family
11 was in Montenegro. We did not talk about anything else then. We each
12 smoked a cigarette. I left. The guard stayed there. And what happened
13 later, well, I just went to the apartment where I lived.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MS. KUO: It's 11.00, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume at 11.30.
17 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.
20 MS. KUO:
21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, none of the prison guards or staff was ever
22 punished for their treatment of Ekrem Zekovic after his escape; right?
23 A. I wouldn't know.
24 Q. Did you or any other staff members suffer any consequences from
25 the fact that he was able to escape?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I would not know. I did not.
2 Q. I'd like to turn our attention to the Red Cross. The Red Cross
3 did not have access to the KP Dom until the 23rd of June, 1993; right?
4 A. I think, and from, I heard from others, they had come before that
6 Q. They had attempted to come into the KP Dom, but you never
7 permitted them to come inside; right?
8 A. They never turned to me or asked me to gain access, so who it was
9 who banned them from entering, who prohibited access to them, I would not
11 Q. You had contact with the Red Cross as early as October of 1992,
12 didn't you?
13 A. I do not know the exact time when that happened, but be that as it
14 may, I only -- I had contacted with them only once, or rather, twice, is
15 that I had a kind of contact with them.
16 Q. I'd like to have you shown Exhibit D106. This is a letter dated
17 21st October 1992 which you signed, as the warden, to the Red Cross in
18 Foca, asking for aid packages for captured and detained persons. That's
19 your signature and you wrote this; right?
20 A. Just one explanation: I did not know that you are talking about
21 this Red Cross, not the International Red Cross. Yes, this is my
23 Q. There was a difference, in your mind, between the Red Cross in
24 Foca and the International Red Cross? Isn't it the same organisation?
25 A. To my mind, it is one and the same, but just to make this
1 distinction so that it wouldn't turn out as if I hadn't had any contact
2 with the Red Cross in Foca. Yes, this is indeed my signature and request
3 addressed to the Red Cross.
4 Q. And you testified in your direct examination that in fact you did
5 not receive these aid packages; is that right?
6 A. I did not receive these packages, but a few days later I received
7 another kind of foodstuffs than those that were in the packages. At
8 least, that's what I heard, because the head of the Red Cross said that
9 she could not get those packages because at that time the refugees had
10 turned out, and those packages were very convenient for refugees and
11 displaced, so that later on she gave -- I wouldn't know the quantities,
12 but there was some oil and beans and some detergents, and so on.
13 Q. And you got foodstuffs not from the Red Cross itself, right, but
14 from another source? Is that right?
15 A. That food that I am referring to came from the warehouse which
16 belonged to the Red Cross, where they stocked this food which was received
17 by aid.
18 Q. You made a distinction between the Foca Red Cross and the
19 International Red Cross. The Foca Red Cross contact you had was with a
20 former student of yours; right?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Which was different from the International Red Cross, in your
23 mind, because those people from the International Red Cross were from a
24 different country and spoke a different language; right?
25 A. No, but because the International Red Cross did not communicate
1 with me; they communicated with the army and the army command. And about
2 this here, I directly communicated with the boss of the Red Cross. That
3 is the difference.
4 Q. And just looking at document D106 again, under the subject line,
5 these were aid packages that you requested for captured and detained
6 persons, not for sentenced people, not for the people serving their
7 sentences; right?
8 A. By "detained persons," I also meant persons who had been sentenced
9 and were serving their terms. I meant them just as well as those persons
10 who had been brought in under custody.
11 Q. So it was for everybody who was held at the KP Dom?
12 A. In any event, yes, I wrote them and asked for it for everybody in
13 the same way, with no discrimination whatsoever.
14 Q. Thank you. With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have you
15 shown document D37.
16 Mr. Krnojelac, document D37 was submitted by the Defence, and it
17 is a report from the Republika Srpska Ministry of Justice and
18 Administration and the Section for Enforcement of Sentences, to the
19 Minister of the Ministry of Justice and Administration. It's dated the
20 22nd of October, 1992, and it's the report on the situation in prisons and
21 prisoner of war collection camps. And it's several pages long, listing
22 several prison camps, and it says that it was based on a list given by the
23 International Red Cross.
24 The Foca KP Dom is not listed on this document, is it?
25 A. I'm looking through it. KP Dom Foca. No, I don't see it
1 mentioned. This report was submitted by Slobodan Avlijas, not me.
2 Q. Now, the people who were detained at the KP Dom Foca were not
3 registered with the International Red Cross by the time of this document;
4 right? That's why it's not listed.
5 A. I simply do not know whether they were registered or not, because
6 they were not under my jurisdiction. If they were not, then it is the
7 responsibility of the military command, that is, the Tactical Group. I do
8 not know.
9 Q. Now, this report was prepared by the Ministry of Justice and it is
10 addressed to the Minister of Justice. You often went to Ministry of
11 Justice meetings in Bijeljina; right?
12 A. Again, I wouldn't -- that word "often." It was only two or three
13 times that I went, and I must say that at none of -- that none of those
14 meetings that I attended took place anywhere else but in Bijeljina,
15 because in Bijeljina, there was, but you'll begrudge me repeating it all
16 the time, because there was a detachment or a subsidiary or something,
17 because it was sort of a halfway for everybody to come, to go, and that is
18 why we all went to Bijeljina where those meetings were held.
19 Q. And in fact, you had just -- there had just been a meeting in
20 Bijeljina in September of 1992 where prosecutors, judges, and wardens were
21 all called together to discuss cooperation with the military judicial
22 organs; isn't that right? Weren't you present at that meeting?
23 A. I do not know the exact dates of the meetings, but I think that
24 there should be some orders, because at a meeting in 1992, I was present
25 there and there were some justice authorities or the presidents of courts
1 were also present at that meeting and wardens of KP -- different
2 penitentiary institutions.
3 Q. And at that time, there was a discussion about these so-called
4 prisoners of war camps within the Justice Ministry; right? There was some
5 discussion within the Justice Ministry of these prisoners of war camps;
7 A. As far as I can remember, the discussion was not about prisoners
8 of war or persons brought under custody at the time but about the
9 distribution about penitentiaries and the work of courts, rather, justice
10 authorities in municipalities.
11 Q. With the military justice organs; isn't that right?
12 A. I do not remember them being present there or any discussions
13 between the justice authorities and the military. It was with civilian
14 authorities, that is, with bodies of civilian courts, of civil courts,
15 whatever you like to call them. Courts, not military, not military ones.
16 At least as I can remember. Or at least nobody introduced himself and
17 said that he came from a military court.
18 MS. KUO: I'd like to have the witness shown Exhibit D89.
19 Q. This is a notice set out by the Ministry of Justice and
20 Administration, dated the 5th of September, 1992, and it states that the
21 Ministry of Justice has assessed the situation and concluded that a
22 working meeting must be convened with court presidents, public
23 prosecutors, and wardens, and that includes you, right, Mr. Krnojelac?
24 A. I can't even read this document properly because I think my
25 glasses are too poor and I can't read this. And I cannot remember that I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 ever knew about this document or that I know anything about it.
2 No. No, I'm not familiar with this document.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, it could be increased in size on the screen,
4 I think, if you wanted it.
5 MS. KUO: We can certainly do that, Your Honour. We could ask the
6 usher to please help us by putting the B/C/S version on the screen, and
7 then we can ask the audio-visual staff to increase the size. The relevant
8 part would be the first four paragraphs.
9 JUDGE HUNT: When I see the document that the accused was looking
10 at, I can see I'd have some trouble myself, and I believe my glasses are
11 all right.
12 MS. KUO:
13 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, does this help? Are you now able to read the
15 A. I do not remember this document. I do not remember ever seeing it
16 or receiving it.
17 Q. In the course --
18 A. And I can't, I can't read it because -- but I simply do not
19 remember at least the heading which I did read, but this heading I did
20 read. The rest I didn't read. I don't remember ever being informed about
21 such a document.
22 Q. Let's try it this way, Mr. Krnojelac: This is the copy that we
23 got from your lawyers and we don't have anything that's any clearer than
24 this, but we did manage to get it translated by the translation staff
25 here, and I will read a portion of it to you in English and ask you
1 questions based on that.
2 You've told us you don't know this document, but it's true that
3 you did attend a working meeting that was called by the Ministry of
4 Justice after the 5th of September, 1992, the purpose of which meeting was
5 to discuss cooperation with various other judicial organs; right?
6 A. I'm not aware that any of those meetings we held discussed such a
7 document. I simply do not remember. It was a long time ago. I do not
8 remember. Perhaps I was there and present, but it had nothing to do with
9 the KP Dom, as I was a beginner in all this and perhaps I didn't pay
10 attention, and so that is why I cannot remember.
11 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I don't -- I'm not focusing the questions about
12 whether you know about the document. The question was your participation
13 in a meeting.
14 I'm going to read from the document, from the English version, and
15 just ask you about the statement. According to this document signed by
16 the Minister or signed for the Minister of Justice: "Wardens of penal and
17 correctional facilities are required to bring to the meeting the rules of
18 internal organisation for approval."
19 That was what you were instructed to do and that's what you did;
21 A. I know that rules were adopted by one of those meetings. I
22 brought to that meeting the rules on the internal organisation that
23 existed before, prior to the armed conflict.
24 Q. According to this document, this meeting took place on the 16th of
25 September, 1992, and that attendance was mandatory. So you did
1 participate; right?
2 A. Well, I cannot confirm the date, whether it was that date, but
3 such a meeting which was to adopt the rules on the internal organisation
4 of work, I said that I had brought the rules, but I had brought the rules
5 which had been adopted before the armed conflict. We never prepared any
6 rules, and they accepted those rules which were the old rules.
7 Q. Among the other things that were discussed at this meeting were
8 cooperation between the civilian military -- civilian judicial organs and
9 the military judicial organs; right?
10 A. I do not remember any military organs at that meeting where I
11 presented these rules. I do not remember any military bodies being at
12 that meeting, or perhaps I did not know them, and I am not aware of that.
13 Q. Again, this is not my question whether there was any military
14 people present, but let me read to you a portion of paragraph 4: "This
15 notice of a meeting requires the presidents of the high courts and senior
16 public prosecutors to prepare briefings." And on paragraph 4 it states
17 that among other things, the briefings should include information about
18 cooperation with the internal affairs organs, military judicial organs,
19 inspection services, et cetera. So cooperation between the civilian and
20 the military judicial organs was discussed at the meeting; isn't that
22 A. I'm telling you that I do not remember it being discussed, unless
23 they had a separate meeting and they had a different meeting. But at this
24 meeting, I do not remember this cooperation discussed. But perhaps there
25 were some separate meetings and perhaps they discussed it at that meeting,
1 and we, the wardens of penitentiaries and reformatories, discussed the
3 MS. KUO: Thank you. We don't need this document any more.
4 Q. Just returning very briefly to the Red Cross, Mr. Krnojelac. On
5 the day that the Red Cross finally was allowed to come to the KP Dom on
6 the 23rd of June, 1993, a group of detainees were hidden in the bakery,
7 where they weren't doing any work, but they were simply kept there so they
8 would not be registered; isn't that right?
9 A. I'm telling you that I do not know anything about that.
10 Q. As far as you know, none of the detainees were approved to work at
11 the bakery, right, the group that was hidden that day, including
12 intellectuals such as Safet Avdic?
13 A. I have told you that I am not aware of that and that I know
14 nothing about it at all.
15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you were among the people whom the military command
16 included in their list of people who needed to be notified about military
17 arrest authorities; isn't that right?
18 A. Could you please clarify your question?
19 Q. You were notified that there had been a change in military arrest
20 authorities; right? The military officials notified you of changes in
21 their arrest authority; isn't that right?
22 A. No info. I never received -- I was never notified about any
23 military authority or any -- I never received any notification about
24 anything from the military authorities.
25 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have you
1 shown Exhibit D54.
2 Q. This is an order dated 7 September 1992, and it's signed by the
3 Commander of the Foca Tactical Group, Colonel Marko Kovac. And it states
4 that the commander of the military police and chief of security are
5 authorised to arrest an offender at the request of a unit commander, or
6 based on their own assessment, and it also talks about when a person could
7 be released under those circumstances. And under number 3 of this order,
8 it states: "Inform the warden of the Foca KP Dom of this order." That
9 was you, wasn't it?
10 A. Please, I am telling you that I never had this order and that this
11 has absolutely nothing to do with me, with this order. "Inform the warden
12 of the Foca KP Dom," and above it, it says who can arrest and who can
13 release. So it shows: "Inform the warden of the Foca KP Dom," and who
14 was the warden of the KP Dom in the civilian part, but this then has to do
15 with the warden of the KP Dom responsible for detainees, that same
16 commander or one of his men whom he had authorised to do it, not for me.
17 This has nothing to do with me, because I had no right either to arrest or
18 to release, because you see who arrests and who releases and who has the
19 right to put somebody under arrest.
20 MS. KUO: Thank you. We're done with this document.
21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I want to talk about Savo Todovic. When you
22 arrived at the KP Dom, he was already there; right?
23 A. As far as I can remember, I did not see him there straight away.
24 On the 18th, I did not see him. I do not know even if I saw him on the
1 Q. Do you know --
2 A. But later on I did see him.
3 Q. Do you know when he started working there?
4 A. I don't know exactly about anyone except myself. All I know is
5 that people did not come to the KP Dom right away. The inflow of these
6 workers for the labour duty started somewhere after the 20th, 21st of
8 Q. You knew that Savo Todovic was somebody who had worked at the KP
9 Dom before the war; right?
10 A. I learnt afterwards, gradually, who had worked where. Before I
11 went there and before this information, I did not know that Savo Todovic
12 used to work for the KP Dom. I learnt about that afterwards.
13 Q. You learned, while you were still working at KP Dom, that Savo
14 Todovic had worked there before the war; right? He was one of the
15 professional staff who returned to the KP Dom as part of his work
16 obligation; right?
17 A. Later I learned that he had worked at the KP Dom before the armed
18 conflict broke out as well, but I don't think that he had work
19 obligation. If you have a document of that kind -- but no, he did not
20 have work obligation; he had a military obligation.
21 Q. And you said "later." It was still while you were at the KP Dom;
22 right? You learned while you were still at the KP Dom that Savo Todovic
23 had worked there before?
24 A. I was at the KP Dom, yes.
25 Q. And you also knew that he had been in charge or had been working
1 with legal affairs before the war; right?
2 A. Somebody from amongst the staff at the accounting department told
3 me that he was a clerk who was responsible for convicted persons at first,
4 and later on he became a lawyer. That's what I heard towards the end of
5 my tenure there, and that he became a lawyer.
6 Q. His office was also down the hall from yours, right, on the same
8 A. On opposite ends with regard to the staircase, to the left and to
9 the right, but it's on the same floor.
10 Q. You also had contact with him regarding the allocation of
11 detainees for work in the economic units; right?
12 A. Please, may I just explain this? This office was -- after Mr.
13 Vujovic -- or rather, while Mr. Vujovic was there, he was in that office;
14 and later, when Vujovic left the KP Dom, then Mr. Todovic moved to that
15 office. That was -- I can't remember exactly, but let me say that it was
16 almost towards the end of 1992 when Vujovic left. I don't know whether it
17 was September, August. I don't know exactly.
18 MS. KUO: For the Court's information, Mr. Vujovic is listed as
19 number 1 on Exhibit P3.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
21 MS. KUO:
22 Q. Mr. Vujovic was the lawyer at the KP Dom, right, and when he was
23 there he was also under work obligation; isn't that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When Mr. Vujovic left, Mr. Todovic moved into his office, right,
1 and was also working with legal affairs as a lawyer?
2 A. Whether he immediately moved, I don't know, but he was not
3 involved in legal affairs as far as the economic part was concerned.
4 Q. You also knew that Savo Todovic kept a log or files of the
5 convicted prisoners; right?
6 A. I did not know that. Actually, as far as I know, not all the
7 files of convicted persons at the KP Dom have been found at all.
8 Q. The question was about what Savo Todovic was doing at the KP Dom.
9 You told the investigators of the Office of the Prosecution, on the 6th of
10 June, when you spoke, on page 8: "I do not know exactly what Todovic did
11 there. He was not a craftsman or anything like that. He was a lawyer,
12 and he might have done these legal things."
14 A. It seems to me that I was quite accurate and fair when I said
15 before this Court what he did approximately and what he was in charge of.
16 Q. On that same page, you said: "Who would know who was under whose
17 supervision?" This is regarding Mr. Todovic still. "I never tasked him
18 with anything. The only thing I knew he did was keeping the log or the
19 files of the convicted prisoners."
20 Did you say that?
21 A. Before the war that he did that, yes. As for later on, I think I
22 was quite clear when I talked about this here, and I don't see why you're
23 asking me to repeat all of that, because then we went into closed session
24 when I said to this Honourable Court what he did.
25 Q. I'd like to have you shown Exhibit D -- I'm sorry, P46. And this
1 is a transcript of the section that I just read out, page 8 as well in the
2 B/C/S. We've put an arrow at the point.
3 MS. KUO: Perhaps Mr. Krnojelac can just have it placed in front
4 of him.
5 Q. And we've put an arrow at the relevant section, and I'd just like
6 to have it confirmed, that statement that I read, where you stated: "The
7 only thing I knew he did was keeping the log or the files of the convicted
9 A. But I certainly said here that this was done before the war.
10 Perhaps I didn't say it, but that's what I meant, the work that he did
11 before the war. And later on, I could not have said something like that,
12 like what I said before this Court, perhaps for some justified reasons.
13 And I also said that he was not a craftsman, a repairman, so that he would
14 be in charge of a work unit. He didn't do that before either. And then
15 this was some kind of precaution on my part, because I did not think that
16 questions would be put as to what other people did. I thought that I was
17 only supposed to answer in respect of what did I and what I was in charge
19 However, it seems to me that I was clear and accurate in terms of
20 saying before this Honourable Court what I knew. And after all, that is
21 the oath I took, that I will say the truth, and indeed I spoke the truth.
22 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, the section that we're discussing was something you
23 said in answer to the following question: "But was he under your
25 So the time that we're talking about was not before the war.
1 You're not talking about what Mr. Todovic did before the war, were you?
2 The question was about your supervision of him, and your answer was about
3 what he did while you were there, and that was to keep a log or files of
4 the convicted persons; right?
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have been trying to
6 find what my learn friend has been saying just now. Could she just tell
7 me, please, on page 8 of the B/C/S version, which line is this?
8 MS. KUO: It's toward the bottom of the page, if my memory serves
9 me right, and if counsel would like, we can put that back on the ELMO so
10 he doesn't have to search for it.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Please, because I don't seem to be
12 able to find it on page 8 at all.
13 A. Let me just say here, in respect of this answer, it says here, in
14 fact, I did not know what he did, and I think that that is the gist of my
15 answer. In fact, I do not know what he did, which means that in that
16 case, I did not say --
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Well, my colleague has shown this to
18 us now, but could she please just tell me where files or a log is
19 mentioned of convicted persons?
20 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps if you'd just stop talking for a minute, all
21 of you, because the usher was about to put it on the ELMO. It might be a
22 good idea if somebody from the Prosecution could point it out whilst on
23 the ELMO.
24 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I apologise. I think Mr. Bakrac is right.
25 We seem to have gotten the wrong page.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE HUNT: You're working from the English version. Have you
2 got the reference in the B/C/S?
3 MS. KUO: I have the reference as being page 8 as well, but I
4 think it's inaccurate.
5 JUDGE HUNT: I see.
6 MS. KUO: Because looking at it now, the people who are speaking
7 are not -- they don't match up.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Right.
9 MS. KUO: So with apologies to the Court, we're going to look for
10 that right now.
11 JUDGE HUNT: And then perhaps Ms. Dicklich can point it out whilst
12 it's on the ELMO so that Mr. Bakrac can see it.
13 MS. KUO: While this is being done, Your Honour, I can go on so we
14 don't waste time.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I don't know. Is it going to take very long to
16 find? Surely it is to be found in a paragraph which starts with some
17 words, and if those words can be located, then you should find the
19 MS. KUO: Your Honours, we've found it right now. It starts --
20 JUDGE HUNT: How about putting a ring around the word, putting it
21 on the ELMO and then Mr. Bakrac can find it.
22 MS. KUO: It starts at the bottom of page 7 and it goes to the top
23 of page 8. So the question is at the bottom of page 7, the last line, and
24 then the relevant portion is lines 1 through 3 of page 8.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that should be sufficient.
1 Have you found it now, Mr. Bakrac?
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Good.
4 You proceed, Ms. Kuo.
5 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Looking at the bottom of page 7, and there is the question which
7 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff poses to you: "But was he under your supervision?"
8 And then the answer you gave is on the next page, at the top, and there
9 you said: "Who would know? Who would know who was under whose
10 supervision? I never tasked him with anything. The only thing I knew he
11 did was keeping the log or the files of the convicted persons."
13 A. Yes, that's what it says. And I think you can see this quite
14 well. Who would know who was under whose supervision, when I did not know
15 under whose supervision he was? At that moment, perhaps I did not even
16 have the strength to say that which I was not certain that somebody else
17 would corroborate, too, in terms of what he did. Because it would have
18 been pointless if I was the only person to say before this Honourable
19 Court that somebody had been doing something unless it had been said by
20 someone else too.
21 I think that you should try to understand me on this point, that
22 at that moment, I wanted there to still be some secrecy with regard to
23 what he did. I did not give him any orders.
24 So he did work on this file before the armed conflict, but in this
25 case, no, he had some specific, special tasks that we already said to the
1 Honourable Court here.
2 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, are you telling us that during those four days of
3 interviews last year, when you were given the opportunity to say that
4 everything you wanted to, that you kept some things secret?
5 A. Well, in all of this, I kept saying the military, the military,
6 the military, but before this Honourable Court, when I testified, I gave
7 the names. So it is true that names were not named then and that no
8 particular reference was made to who was exactly what, except for what was
9 corroborated later by statements of both one and the other.
10 Q. My question to you is: "Did you deliberately withhold information
11 during these four days of interviews? Did you deliberately not state a
12 fact that you're testifying to now?
13 A. I thought then that I was only answering with respect to what had
14 to do with me personally and that you and the Court would not be asking me
15 about the work of others. That is why I thought it was sufficient if I
16 would just say what I did and what I was in charge of, because this is my
17 first time in court. I was never before a court of law before, and I
18 don't know what I'm supposed to do. I thought it was sufficient to talk
19 only about my duties, what I did, and what I reported about.
20 Q. Your lawyers were there with you during these interviews every
21 single moment; right?
22 A. They were present during these interviews, yes. Not at every
23 moment. When they went to have breakfast, they weren't there, but they
24 were present during the interviews, yes.
25 Q. And you were told by the investigator himself, before you began
1 the interview, that if you didn't want to answer questions, you had a
2 right to say you didn't want to answer the question; right?
3 A. Yes, that is correct. As a matter of fact, he cautioned me that
4 everything that I would say would be held against me. And then I said it
5 would be best for me to keep silent and not to say anything. But then
6 they told me, well, then there would be no point in this kind of an
7 interview. So it was said to me. I was made aware of that.
8 Q. And you did answer questions voluntarily; right?
9 A. Voluntarily at any rate.
10 Q. And you spoke with the investigators because you felt the need to
11 explain your situation, and you tried to convince them that you were not
12 guilty of what you were accused of; right?
13 A. At any rate, I think I once said, "It seems to me that you want to
14 accuse me of something that I have not done, and I'm not going to make any
15 further reference to that."
16 Q. And had you not wanted to answer a particular question, you were
17 free to say, "I don't wish to answer that question. Please move on";
18 right? Nobody ever said, "You must answer this question."
19 A. One of the members told me that I could do it that way. However,
20 teachers have an occupational obsession. They speak all the time. And
21 you can see it here, and you have been seeing it, that I talk too much all
22 the time. I want to explain my truth as best I can.
23 Q. And are you telling us that in the course of explaining your truth
24 over those four days there was information that you deliberately held
25 back, to keep a secret? Is that what you're telling us? And now today in
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 court you're saying that there was further situation?
2 A. Well, I could not put it that way, to deliberately withhold, to
3 hold back. I thought that it only had to do with me personally, and with
4 the extent to which I am a war criminal in that respect, to present the
5 truth. The truth doesn't always have to be cheerful. It can be happy; it
6 can be sad. But what I wanted to do was to tell the truth, irrespective
7 of what it was like.
8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, this transcript shows the second day of your
9 interviews. By the time you were asked about Savo Todovic, you had
10 already been asked about several other people at the KP Dom; isn't that
11 right? This was not the first time that you were being asked about
12 someone else's actions.
13 A. I even know that I said to the gentlemen, the investigators who
14 talked to me, "Please, I cannot" -- or did I say, "Shall I not mention the
15 name of the person who was present when the Red Cross was there?" Because
16 I hoped that these records, minutes of the Red Cross would be presented to
17 this Honourable Court and that then they would show that such-and-such a
18 person was there on behalf of the military and let him talk about the
19 detained persons. I did not mention that name because I was hoping that
20 his name would be found in the minutes of the Red Cross, this
21 International Red Cross, this humanitarian organisation.
22 Q. When you were asked specific questions about Savo Todovic, you
23 never said, "I don't wish to discuss this person," did you?
24 A. Well, what could have been said? And which was, in a way, in my
25 opinion, important, I said that already then. I did not say everything,
1 probably. And that is why I later asked for a closed session to say this,
2 because I told you: Foca is a small town. And in addition to that, 19
3 members of my family -- I mean, I love them, and I have to defend and
4 safeguard the truth as well.
5 Q. I'd like you to turn to page 7, just to go back a little bit
6 further and discuss how this discussion came about during the course of
7 the interview. Go toward the bottom of page 7, please. You were
8 basically going through the list P3, a list of all the employees at the KP
9 Dom, and you've gotten to number -- you went through number 9 or so, and
10 you got to the name Savo Todovic at the very bottom of the page. You
11 point to the middle of that paragraph. You said,
12 "This person, Savo Todovic, it says here he was a deputy chief, a
13 deputy director for legal and financial affairs since 1st July 1993. What
14 he was doing there, I don't know. I only remember that laws were changing
15 in the justice. Most probably that is when this law was changed, that is,
16 when this title of deputy director for legal and financial affairs was
17 introduced, because I do not know of such a name, of such a title."
18 And then you were asked whether Savo Todovic was under your
19 supervision, and then you gave the answer that we quoted earlier. At no
20 point when his name came up on the list and in the course of discussion
21 did you ever say, "I do not wish to speak about this particular
22 individual," isn't that right?
23 A. Whether I said that, I really can't remember. Well, you're
24 showing me this now, but this assistant over here for administrative and
25 financial affairs, appointed as of the 1st of July, 1993, that is on that
1 list of personnel. And already on the 1st of July, 1993, I was being
2 relieved of my duty as warden. At one of the meetings in Bijeljina,
3 mention was made of amending laws in the justice system, and then the name
4 was mentioned of the kind of person who did not exist until then,
5 according to law, that is to say, assistant warden for legal affairs, and
6 in the previous law there was no such post. And when I was told,
7 "Milorad, why are you not talking about this law?" And I said that had
8 it been the law on elementary school, I would talk about it, but since
9 this is the law on justice, I cannot discuss it at all, because I don't
10 know about it, and I certainly won't with be working in the justice
11 system, but I will be working in schools. Because this was in 1973. It
12 was in April or perhaps even May. Then this law about the judiciary was
13 discussed. Because I did not take part in this discussion at all, as I
14 was not very knowledgeable with regard to such matters, and I said that if
15 we were discussing the law on elementary education, I would take part in
16 the discussion, but I would not be needing this because I would not be
17 working at the judiciary. Oh, I do apologise. Sorry.
18 Q. We don't need for you to answer things that are irrelevant, and we
19 certainly don't need for you to repeat that. My question to you was
20 simply about the interview. During the course of the interview, you never
21 once said, "I do not wish to speak about Savo Todovic, because I wish to
22 protect my family or myself or any other person," right? You spoke freely
23 about this person; right?
24 A. But it is true that I said that Savo Todovic was appointed for
25 military obligation. It is sure that I said that, that he was a military
1 conscript and that he was appointed with regard to military obligation,
2 not work obligation.
3 Q. You stated further - and perhaps with the help of the usher, we
4 can look at the middle of page 8 - when you were asked about whether in
5 fact he was your deputy, and you said he was not. And then, about halfway
6 down the page, you make the following comment:
7 "Anybody in the KP Dom could believe that I was the director of
8 the KP Dom because of their lack of information. Whether he was playing
9 some other game behind my back, as many could have done at KP Dom at that
10 time, starting from the security personnel, I do not know. When I left KP
11 Dom, I found out some things which I did not know while I was there."
12 Here you make reference to some games that could have been played
13 behind your back. Are you saying that Savo Todovic and other security
14 personnel were playing games, pretending that you were in charge when you
16 A. Any one of them, either security personnel or any other military
17 person, could have said to everyone, "Well, Milorad is warden of the KP
18 Dom. Milorad is responsible for you." He could have. It doesn't mean to
19 say that he did say it, but he could have, and that is why I said that he
20 could have said something like that behind my back. These are experienced
21 people. They could have said, "It is Milorad's fault that you are
22 detained and everything." I didn't hear that, but he could have said,
23 "Milorad Krnojelac is the warden for everything, but Milorad Krnojelac
24 said what he was and what the military was."
25 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, isn't it true that a year ago, during the time you
1 gave these four days of interviews, you denied knowing who was in charge
2 of the military part of the KP Dom?
3 A. I said that the army was responsible for the military part, and I
4 did not say who was made responsible on behalf of the army. And to this
5 day, I still do not know -- I wouldn't say exactly, but on the basis of
6 some actions, one could know.
7 Q. Let me see if I heard this correctly. You're saying to this very
8 day, you don't know who was in charge of the military part of the KP Dom,
9 the counterpart to the civilian side, of which you were in charge?
10 A. I'm only referring to this transcript before a year ago, and I
11 say: Well, today one already knows these things, and at that time it was
12 the way it was. If a document is adopted by somebody else, and if it is
13 not adopted by Milorad Krnojelac, then it means that the other person is
14 responsible and not Milorad Krnojelac.
15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, let me quote to you from the 6th of June. This is
16 Exhibit P46, and it's page 4 in both the B/C/S and the English: "I wish I
17 had known then who the director of the other unit was. I only know that
18 it was a military unit belonging to the Tactical Group in Velecevo." You
19 said that; right?
20 A. Please, let me tell you something. Honestly, I was under no oath
21 at that time, and I consider this conversation with gentlemen from the
22 Office of the Prosecutor was something completely else from how I
23 understood that the purpose of this Tribunal. I thought I was talking
24 with them about those situations which had to do with me. And at that
25 moment I never talked about that other part which I simply -- but what
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 referred simply to the military command.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, the accused has said several times that his
3 belief was they were only interested in what he was doing. Are you going
4 to investigate that at all? Was he told not to talk about other people,
5 or what?
6 MS. KUO: Yes.
7 JUDGE HUNT: It seems to me that you've let it go each time. If
8 you're going to take it up later, by all means. I don't want to take your
9 cross-examination out of order. But it is a surprising assertion which it
10 seems to be needed to be investigated, at least a little.
11 MS. KUO: Yes. I'll do that right now, then.
12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, are you saying that you were told that you would
13 only be giving information about yourself and not be asked questions about
14 other people?
15 A. Well, right now I can't remember whether this is correct. I was
16 asked about others. I cannot deny that. But my idea was that it will be
17 enough to only speak about what I did and what I knew in this particular
18 case, and what I was responsible for. I simply never thought that I
19 should then speak about who else did what and what his duty was. That was
20 my line of thinking.
21 Q. Surely you expected that if you were trying to say someone else
22 was responsible, that you would be asked who that other person was in
23 order for you to assert your innocence; right? That certainly came as no
24 surprise to you.
25 A. It came as a surprise to me that nobody was ready to understand me
1 that I was not responsible, and that is what I was explaining, that I was
2 responsible for something else and not for the detainees.
3 Q. Sir, the question was not related to your actions. You've already
4 told us that. The question was related to whether you logically would
5 have expected that someone would be interested in who was responsible, if
6 not you; right?
7 A. Even one of the members of that team conducting the interview
8 said, "Don't explain to us. Don't explain to us. If you don't want to
9 mention somebody, just tell us, 'I don't want to speak about that.'" In
10 other words, it was enough for me to talk about myself.
11 Q. And in the passage we just went through, you never said, "I don't
12 wish to speak about this individual," right? You went ahead and said what
13 you knew about that person, and it certainly didn't include his being in
14 charge of the military part; isn't that right?
15 A. Of all that I said, that he was a military conscript, and it was a
16 common fact that he was responsible for the military part not for the
17 economic part, because it was not a labour duty; it was military duty.
18 And I thought that it was enough for me to say that, to point out that.
19 Because my knowledge of law, excuse me, but is really none, because I know
20 nothing about it, and then here I'm confronted with all that.
21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you stated earlier, just a few minutes ago, that at
22 the time that you made this statement to the investigators, that you were
23 not under oath. Are you telling us that because you were not under oath,
24 you did not tell the truth?
25 A. Heaven forbid. I spoke the truth then, except that I didn't
1 mention directly the work tasks of other people, because my motive is
2 truth, nothing but the truth, and I think I said somewhere I want to
3 defend myself with truth, even though some others maybe do not want to
4 testify to that. I don't know which part of the transcript that is in.
5 Q. And the passage I've quoted to you just now where you said: "I
6 wish I had known then who the director of the other unit was, that is, the
7 director of the military part," that's accurate; right?
8 A. Well, you can interpret it as you like and say that that is
9 correct, but I can say that I simply did not know that I was supposed to
10 say, "Well, that is so-and-so," even on that occasion. But I think it's
11 never late to arrive at the truth, and I've repeated it now during my
12 testimony before this Honourable Court. Because usually one says the
13 truth is like the cork. The deeper you try to sink it, it will surface
14 sooner or later.
15 Q. I would like to show you this transcript so we have a better idea
16 of the context in which this statement arose. It's Exhibit P46, and it's
17 page 4 in the English, and it's also page 4 in the B/C/S. In the English
18 it's line 5.
19 The question that was posed to you was: "I really want to know
20 who was the warden at the time that you were there as the head of the
21 economic part of the KP Dom."
22 And the answer that you gave is at the bottom of the page. We're
23 having it highlighted right now.
24 This is the question that's being posed to you, which I've just
25 read out, regarding who was the warden. Your answer to that was not, "I
1 don't wish to answer this."
2 MS. KUO: Perhaps the usher can leave it there.
3 A. I haven't read it. I haven't read it yet.
4 MS. KUO:
5 Q. Your answer to that question: "Who was the warden of the KP Dom
6 if you were the director of the economic unit?" was not, "I don't wish to
7 answer that," but it was, rather: "I wish I knew, too, and I wish I had
8 known then who the director of the other unit was. I only know that it
9 was the military unit belonging to the Tactical Group in Velecevo."
10 So you affirmatively say that you don't know; right?
11 A. My -- my answer was that that is the Tactical Group which was at
12 Velecevo and was under the military command. And you can see straight
13 away here that it was the warden of that same technical group or, rather,
14 from the military command and that at that time I didn't quote his full
15 name. Now, again, the commander was so-and-so, and now I think in this
16 case if he was the commander, then he was also the warden of that military
17 part, because it doesn't say anywhere the warden of the military part but
18 the commander of the Tactical Group, and it was all subordinated to the
19 military command. Therefore, the warden is most probably the commander of
20 the Tactical Group.
21 Q. So my point is you simply said you didn't know the name and now
22 you wish to tell us that you do know the name; right?
23 A. Please, somewhere during the interview, I mentioned the name of
24 Mr. Marko Kovac. I hope that you will find it somewhere in the
25 transcript, because I did mention his name.
1 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, it's a fact, isn't it, that during your interviews,
2 you were not afraid to give names. You were simply asserting to this one
3 single point that you didn't know what the name was; right? You never
4 said you were afraid and didn't want to give the name. You simply said
5 you didn't know who it was; isn't that true?
6 A. I thought that there was no need for me to mention any names, and
7 I am telling you because I don't know how else to answer these questions.
8 I simply thought there was no need for me to mention their names and that
9 I should speak only about my part, that is, what I did and what I was in
10 charge of. And if that is a mistake and if that is a responsibility, then
11 it is up to the Honourable Court to think about it. I'm telling the
13 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the
14 witness shown the transcript from the last day of the interview, which is
15 the 27th of July. The Exhibit number is P50. The relevant page is 21 in
16 the English, and the B/C/S is now being shown on the ELMO. If we could
17 move it up just a little. Yes, a little bit so that we can see the
18 beginning of that. Okay.
19 Q. You were asked by Mr. Kemppainen: "So my last question was about
20 military command, the chain of command in military, and who was
21 responsible for the military part of the KP Dom? And if I got it right,
22 you are not willing to give in the names. And for further clarification,
23 KP Dom and military in general. Yes, the military part. I mean the
24 military part."
25 And then your answer, Mr. Krnojelac: "It's not that I don't want
1 to give names, it's just that I don't know who was in charge there."
2 Those are your words; right?
3 A. Because it did not happen in the KP Dom, in the administrative
4 building where I was. It happened in the military command. That is, I
5 insisted on drawing these distinctions and that is why I am supplementing
6 this answer.
7 I meant the military part of the KP Dom. Then -- and that is what
8 the gentleman said. And then I answer it's not that I don't want to, it's
9 that I do not know who was responsible for it all, because it did not
10 happen in the KP Dom, in the administrative building where I was, but it
11 was settled in the army command, which means that I did not have an
12 opportunity to see what went on in the army command, and in that case --
13 and it didn't happen in the administrative building where I worked and
14 where I performed my duties.
15 MS. KUO: Thank you. We don't need this document any more.
16 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you've talked very much about this division between
17 the military part and the civilian part, and you've made reference to this
18 contract letting the military use a part of the KP Dom.
19 Isn't it true that you personally were the person who permitted
20 the military to take, to rent out part of the KP Dom for their use?
21 A. I did not do that of my own will, but excuse me, just recall that
22 I said that on the 19th, with Mr. Mladjenovic, the President of the
23 Excessive Board of the Assembly of the municipality of Foca, who said
24 himself that that matter would be settled. And that matter was then
25 settled, and it seems to me that I -- well, we've been talking now, you
1 and I, for a long time, but I think I've told you that. And when that
2 letter arrived, then I asked him, "So what do I do now?" And that --
3 because he was the only one nearby whom I could ask. And he said, "Well,
4 Milorad, there is no more convenient place or better place for those
5 people than the KP Dom, and so approve it." And I just approved it and
6 told him that they should return it in a proper state, in the working
7 order, because I thought it would be all over much sooner.
8 I never thought that these armed conflicts would go on until the
9 Dayton Accords in 1995. I thought it will be over much sooner than that.
10 It will be over in a couple of days and that that part would not be
11 needed, that it would all be exchanged, that the people would go back to
12 their homes and their families and I back to my job and so on and so
14 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the
15 witness shown D38.
16 Q. This is a request directed to the KP Dom Foca from the Commander
17 of the Foca Tactical Group, signed Miro Stanic. And just by the way, Miro
18 Stanic is the same person you've identified already as the President of
19 the SDS from that list of Crisis Staff members; right?
20 A. It's Miro Stanic's signature. At least that's what it says in the
21 typewriter. What is it in handwriting, I don't know, but it says Miro
23 Q. So this is dated the 8th of May, 1992, and you saw that document;
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So actually, in addition to being the President of the SDS, Miro
2 Stanic -- you already knew at that point that Miro Stanic was also the
3 Commander of the Foca Tactical Group during this time; right?
4 A. Whether he was the commander of the Tactical Group I didn't know,
5 but it says here the "Commander of the Tactical Group," and I cannot say
6 yes or no, because with the army, I don't know their positions. But it
7 says the "Commander of the Tactical Group." Whether he was the commander
8 or not, I do not know that. But it says here the commander. Excuse me,
9 "For the commander." If I'm correct, here on the stamp it says, "For."
10 Oh, yes. I saw this "a" and dash, and that is why I understand it must be
11 for the commander.
12 Q. Yes. I understand that convention which is --
13 A. But you don't see it in English.
14 Q. When it says "For" it usually means that somebody else is signing
15 it but that it's on behalf of another person, usually a much
16 higher-ranking person; right? That's what it means?
17 A. It means that he's not the commander, that it's for, for. It
18 means on behalf of the commander. That's how I see it.
19 Q. On behalf of the Commander Miro Stanic; right? The title
20 "commander" belongs to Miro Stanic, right? Because both names are
21 typed -- both the title and the name are typed in, even if the signature
22 may not be the same person; right?
23 A. Please, it says here "Miro Stanic," typewritten and signed for the
25 MS. KUO: Perhaps we'll just take a look, a quick look at the
1 B/C/S version so that everybody understands this discussion, which the
2 witness has. Very briefly, if the witness could place that on the ELMO.
3 Q. The word "commander" is written in -- is typed in, and the name
4 "Miro Stanic" is also typed in; right?
5 A. Yes. Except that it is this dash and "a," written by hand. And
6 on this stamp, I suppose it also says "for."
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes: That is, the word "Za,"
8 Za, which means "for" or "on behalf of," and the "a" is the accusative.
9 Q. But you're saying that Miro Stanic was not, in fact, the commander
10 but that as President of the SDS he was signing on behalf of somebody
12 A. I'm not claiming that. I'm not claiming that either he was or
13 that he wasn't, because I don't know.
14 Q. Let's take it then as either possibility. Mr. Stanic was either
15 the Commander of the Foca Tactical Group or he had the authority to sign
16 on behalf of the Tactical Group; right?
17 A. Let it be so, because I do not know what is the state of affairs.
18 MS. KUO: Could I ask the usher to give the B/C/S version back to
19 the witness and have the English on the ELMO.
20 The request was to use the premises within the KP Dom compound for
21 the accommodation of prisoners of war, and it talks about the premises
22 being used temporarily and that would they would be returned in good
24 Okay. I would like to have the witness now shown Exhibit D38/1.
25 Q. After you received that request, you wrote this response, right,
1 and signed it?
2 A. Yes, that is my signature.
3 Q. And it's dated the 10th of May, 1992, which means that's the day
4 that you wrote it; right?
5 A. Yes, the 10th of May, 1992. That's what it says, so that's
6 probably when it was.
7 Q. The 10th of May, 1992 was a Sunday, wasn't it?
8 A. Possibly.
9 Q. So you were --
10 A. I don't know what day it was.
11 MS. KUO: The Prosecution has a calendar of May 1992 which shows
12 that May 10th was, in fact, a Sunday, and I can show it to Defence counsel
13 and see if they agree to that. This was something that was generated
14 through the computer.
15 I think, Your Honour, if we could just ask Mr. Bakrac or Mr. Vasic
16 if they agree that in fact it's a Sunday so that we can proceed.
17 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid you're speaking so quietly I didn't even
18 hear you. I don't know whether the interpreters did.
19 MS. KUO: I wanted to know if Mr. Bakrac or Mr. Vasic had an
20 objection to proceeding on the fact that May 10th, 1992, was a Sunday.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on the -- this computer
22 paper it says that that was the 10th. But it's 1.00 and perhaps a
23 convenient time for a break. So we shall check it, compare it with our
24 calculations, and if that is so, then no problem.
25 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume at 2.30.
1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.
3 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. Just before the break we were
4 asking Defence counsel whether they would agree that May 10th, 1992 was a
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
8 MS. KUO:
9 Q. So Mr. Krnojelac, you wrote that particular document, D38, on a
10 Sunday; right?
11 A. I didn't on Sunday, that's for sure. I told you: When I got the
12 letter, I first consulted Mr. Mladjenovic, and after that, this document
13 was written. And as for the calendar, I didn't have one in front of me,
14 so it is possible that whoever was doing the actual writing made a mistake
15 in the date.
16 Q. You wrote that document, didn't you?
17 A. I wrote it, but couldn't it have been possible for me to write on
18 Monday, the 11th, that it was the 10th, and then I had it typed and
19 then -- obviously there was a mistake. I agree with you that the 10th is
20 a Sunday, but I guarantee that I did not sign it on a Sunday.
21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, let's have this document placed before you again.
22 When you wrote this decision granting permission to the military to use
23 premises of the KP Dom, you wrote that the premises were temporarily
24 allocated for the accommodation of prisoners of war and detained persons.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The request was only for prisoners of war. You added the words
2 "detained persons," didn't you?
3 A. I'm not sure what was in the request. However, since other
4 persons were there as well, of Serb ethnicity, who were detained, then
5 this was added to the former. I don't know what it said originally in the
6 request, whether it was imprisoned persons and then detained persons too.
7 I'm not sure.
8 Q. All right. We'll have you given Exhibit D38 and you can take a
9 look. The request is for accommodation of prisoners of war, full stop.
10 A. That's exactly what it says. However, at that time, since there
11 were also persons of Serb ethnicity who were detained, it is for that case
12 that I added this, and that is why it says "prisoners of war and detained
14 Q. So you wrote a decision in which you gave the military
15 accommodations for more than they actually requested; isn't that right?
16 A. Because I stated, together with Mr. Mladjenovic, president of the
17 municipality, I said that there were detained persons as well, and then
18 I'm sure he knew this, and he said, "Oh, just be free to write for both,
19 because you have nothing to do with either of them, so they will both be
20 put up there." So it is with his approval that I wrote this decision,
21 because he then said to me, "What would be better accommodation than what
22 we have right now at the KP Dom?"
23 Q. You, according to your testimony, met with Mr. Mladjenovic
24 regarding the decision. You met with him over the weekend, right, because
25 the 8th was a Friday.
1 A. Precisely on the 8th. If it was a Friday, it is most probable
2 that I consulted with him immediately, that I went to the municipality,
3 carried out consultations, and on Monday finished this, because I did not
4 want to do this on my own either.
5 Q. You didn't have to get anyone else's signature on this; right?
6 You didn't have to meet with Savo Todovic or Mitar Rasevic or Marko
7 Kovac. You wrote this with your signature, right, and that was enough for
8 the decision to take effect?
9 A. The decision for the temporary allocation of accommodation in
10 agreement with the president of the Executive Committee, that was decided,
11 and I thought there was no need for me to contact anyone else.
12 Q. And there is no other document, no separate document that has
13 Mr. Mladjenovic's signature granting permission to use the KP Dom. This
14 is the only document granting permission and it has your signature on it;
16 A. Since at that time I was temporary warden, I asked him. He gave
17 his approval to me. He did not give me any orders in writing or any other
18 document in writing, only what you see here. As far as I can remember,
19 only this, what you can see here. That is how it all ended.
20 Q. You never spoke to the commander of the Foca Tactical Group about
21 what specifically they were requesting, right, in terms of what particular
22 premises and for how long and who would be in charge? You never had any
23 meetings or contact with the military to get those details, did you?
24 A. No meeting, nothing, except for this request that was submitted.
25 Q. And the decision that you made, that you signed, 38/1, that also
1 doesn't specify what premises, for how long, and who would be in charge of
2 those premises, does it?
3 A. It is not specified. It just says that they have to maintain the
4 premises and keep them in proper condition, return them in proper
5 condition, but it was considered that these were quarters for detained
7 MS. KUO: Could I ask the usher to have 38/1 placed on the ELMO.
8 I'm sorry. The English translation is fine.
9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, according to your decision, it says the premises of
10 the KP Dom Foca are temporarily allocated. It doesn't say a part of it,
11 does it?
12 A. The premises are temporarily allocated for the accommodation, the
13 premises of the Foca Penal and Correctional Facility, the accommodation of
14 prisoners of war and detained persons. This accommodation meant the
15 premises where they were put up anyway at the moment when I arrived - I
16 said that - on the 18th of May. So accommodation in those premises where
17 they were already accommodated. That's what I meant, and that is exactly
18 the way I view it today, that these are the premises where they were
19 accommodated anyway.
20 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, can you explain to us why you needed to have this
21 decision if they were accommodated there already?
22 A. Please, this paper, this request, and I did request this from
23 Mr. Mladjenovic in a certain way, to have things known, whose is what, to
24 have these people moved out. And then since he said that it was
25 impossible to relocate them to another because there was no such facility,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the letter was sent, the decision was reached, this was obtained, and
2 that's it.
3 Q. Are you saying that the Tactical Group commander wrote his request
4 because you asked for the request to be made so there was something in
6 A. I cannot assert that. I can only assert that I said to
7 Mr. Mladjenovic that in some way this should be regulated, and he said
8 that he would certainly regulate it. And he did, or, rather, they did
9 regulate it the way they regulated it, like this, because --
10 Q. There's nothing in this decision that says the guard building was
11 allocated to the military, is there? That remained part of your
12 jurisdiction; right? That's not where the accommodations of the prisoners
13 of war and detained persons were.
14 A. Also, upon arriving at the KP Dom, this building was under the
15 people who were from Uzice. And afterwards, it remained to be an
16 auxiliary building for these premises, just like the dining hall, because
17 these are auxiliary premises and one cannot function without the other.
18 And the economic unit did not really need these buildings, so it did not
19 affect it, the fact that this was allocated to them.
20 Q. So these additional buildings, you're saying, were allocated for
21 military use without a written decision, right, as auxiliary buildings, in
22 your words?
23 A. Those were auxiliary buildings in relation to these buildings that
24 pertain to the accommodation of people, and they were also taken before I
25 came, except for the dining hall. The dining hall was not taken because
1 it had not been prepared to function.
2 Q. There's nothing in this document, is there, Mr. Krnojelac, that
3 says that these premises will be maintained by a separate staff?
4 A. Are you referring to the guard building or -- excuse me. What are
5 you exactly referring to? I'm not sure I know what you mean.
6 Q. I'm talking about the piece of paper in front of you, your
7 decision to allocate the premises of the Foca KP Dom for the accommodation
8 of prisoners of war and detained persons. There is nothing in this
9 decision that you wrote and signed that says that these premises that are
10 being allocated for this use would be maintained by a separate staff;
12 A. It says here very nicely: "The user of the premises is obliged to
13 maintain them and return them in good condition."
14 I mean by that that the user is who? It says up here the
15 prisoners of war and detained persons. For me as a teacher, at that point
16 that was quite sufficient for me. I'm not a lawyer, a legal person. It's
17 not that I could explain this further or write something else. I thought
18 this was sufficient, and I thought that that is what was meant by this.
19 Q. There was nothing that says that there should be a separate staff
20 that was in charge of that -- the part that was allocated to the military;
21 right? It was the exact same staff at the KP Dom who were working in the
22 part allocated to the military and the part that remained under your
23 control as you describe it; right?
24 A. The way I describe it, it is that staff that are there, precisely
25 it is their duty to keep this in good condition. It is not for someone
1 else to do that, no way.
2 Q. Thank you. We'll move away from this document.
3 Mr. Krnojelac, you testified earlier in your testimony that you
4 had nothing to do with any weapons. You never carried weapons at the
5 KP Dom, and you had absolutely nothing to do with them while you were at
6 the KP Dom, and, "If you ask me," you said, "I'd burn all the weapons."
7 Do you remember testifying to that?
8 A. This last bit, I don't know if I said I'd burn it or use it as
9 agricultural tools. But as for the rest, as far as I can remember, it's
10 quite correct, because I think I even said that I would not even make toys
11 for children that way, and I never carried weapons at the KP Dom, or
12 anywhere else, for that matter.
13 Q. But you were very much involved in the security of prisoners and
14 detained persons, both within the KP Dom and when they were being
15 transferred out; right?
16 A. I was not involved in that.
17 Q. Are you sure that you were never involved in a proposal to
18 transfer prisoners and detained persons to -- or from Bileca?
19 A. I never took part in that, I certainly didn't.
20 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the
21 witness shown Exhibit D39.
22 Q. This is a document which you signed, Mr. Krnojelac, dated 6th of
23 May, 1993, and it's addressed to the Herzegovina Corps as well as the Foca
24 Tactical Group, and it's a report regarding a proposal to relocate a
25 prison from Bileca to Foca.
1 MS. KUO: And if we could move a little bit further down. Okay.
3 Q. You talk about some of the problems that would be encountered in
4 such a transfer, and you state in this order, or in this report, that:
5 "In order to implement this order to transfer detainees from Bileca to
6 Foca," and I emphasise the word "detainees," "we believe the following
7 issues need to be resolved." And you talk about having to provide
8 security, adequate security personnel. You list 20 employees securing the
9 KP Dom who were sent as military conscripts, and then in addition, there
10 were 24 other military conscripts, and you state:
11 "This personnel structure does not meet even the most minimum
12 requirements for this type of work, and we therefore believe that for the
13 security of inmates, at least 30 workers with prior security experience
14 need to be provided."
15 So you made a report to the military, telling them exactly what
16 you needed in order to carry out the security of a transfer of detainees
17 to the KP Dom; isn't that right?
18 A. I would kindly ask you, because -- I mean, I was listening to what
19 you were saying, because you have a legible manuscript. But this report
20 is an answer to a request by the Herzegovina Corps to relocate the prison
21 from Bileca to Foca, the prison from Bileca to Foca, and down here, as far
22 as I can see, the answer is quite different. Probably in this request of
23 theirs I was actually answering that which should happen. However, here I
24 am saying in this piece of information that since this institution falls
25 under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice and administration of
1 Republika Srpska, it is necessary to obtain their approval, that is to
2 say, not my approval, but their approval, the approval of the ministry, in
3 order to have this carried out and to do something like that, to relocate
4 the prison from Bileca to Foca. That is not to say that I could decide
5 this of my own free will, but they had to ask the Ministry of Justice for
6 approval so that this could be done. So with your permission, I would
7 like to say that this is a kind of answer to their request, because I did
8 not have the right to do that, or rather, I had to ask my superiors, and
9 that is, the Ministry of Justice, the ministry of the judiciary, and that
10 is why I did not take part in this. And for as long as I was there, this
11 was not even carried through, and I had to answer.
12 Q. My question to you, Mr. Krnojelac, was not about your authority to
13 approve this. I understand, and it's clear from the document, that they
14 needed to get approval from the Ministry of Justice, but my question was
15 simply your knowledge. You had a very detailed knowledge of exactly how
16 many military conscripts were working for security, and you also had a
17 very detailed knowledge of how many more would be needed for security
18 purposes; isn't that right? Because that's what you put into the
20 A. Well, probably, in agreement with my associates that I received
21 such information from them, they who knew about this and that this was
22 necessary and that I obtained this kind of information from them, and that
23 is the kind of answer that I gave in respect of what was supposed to be
25 Q. I'd like to have you shown Exhibit P446. This is a list signed by
1 you; isn't that right, Mr. Krnojelac? It's your signature on the second
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And are you able to read the date for us? It's a little bit
5 difficult to see that.
6 A. I can only see here October 1992. I cannot see any other date.
7 Oh, yes, yes. Are you referring to the one that's written in pen or are
8 you referring to the list of military conscripts on the first page, the
9 date over there?
10 Q. I mean the date --
11 A. I'm not clear on this.
12 Q. The date of your signature, so it would be the second page. To
13 the left of your signature it says -- it looks like 23 November
14 nineteen-ninety something, and that last date is not clear on the
15 handwritten copy. Are you able to make that out or tell us what date that
16 was, what year?
17 A. Not this, but over here, because it says on the first page for
18 October 1992, it is probably also 1992.
19 MS. KUO: Okay. Then just for the record, the English translation
20 which has it as 23 November 1997 is inaccurate. It should be 1992.
21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you testified during your direct examination that
22 you were given this list and that you signed it; right?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. And if you look at the first page, you will see that it's listed
25 as a list of men liable for military service, members of the Foca KP Dom,
1 October 1992. And you are listed first and your rank is Captain First
2 Class. Everybody else in the list after you is listed simply as a
3 soldier. That's accurate; right?
4 A. That's the way it looks, yes: soldier, soldier, soldier.
5 Q. And among the people on the list, if you look at number 2, is Savo
6 Todovic, and number 3, Mitar Rasevic, Relja Goljanin, Drakul Bozo, a lot
7 of people that we've already talked about as working at the KP Dom at this
8 time. And number 19, for example, it Risto Ivanovic, who was working as a
9 guard at the KP Dom; right? This is accurate.
10 A. [No translation]
11 Q. So you knew that all these people were liable for military
13 A. According to their age. And up here it says military conscripts.
14 And in terms of their age, I knew that they were subject to military
15 obligation, because everybody under the age of 55 was eligible for
16 military obligation.
17 Q. You prepared this list in preparation for the possible
18 mobilisation; right?
19 A. I did not prepare this list. I did not prepare it for
20 mobilisation. I did not prepare it at all. At any rate, the main
21 objective of this list was, as I said, the Ministry of Defence was
22 supposed to know how many military conscripts were where, because I knew
23 that that was done in other enterprises, other companies as well. I did
24 not prepare this list, nor was such a unit with this composition, for as
25 long as I was at the KP Dom, have any other purpose but working on
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 information in terms of how many military conscripts there were, although
2 some of them got military obligation and others got work obligation.
3 And then afterwards, or perhaps even immediately then, an attempt
4 was made to show in this way that these people were supposed to receive
5 some parcels, and I thought that this was unfair, because there were other
6 people who also worked at the KP Dom. So they were supposed to get them
7 too. But this turned out to be a way of getting allowances or parcels
8 from the military because they were military conscripts, men of military
10 Q. So, Mr. Krnojelac, on the 23rd of November, 1992, when you signed
11 this document, you knew the names of all the people who were working at
12 the KP Dom who were eligible for military duty, including all the security
13 guards; right?
14 A. And I am telling you that I did sign this list, but I did not
15 compile it. This list was literally compiled by Mr. Savo Todovic.
16 Q. I understand that you've told us that he compiled it, but it's
17 your signature on it, not his, and therefore, you knew the names of these
18 people; right? That was your responsibility before you sign a document,
19 that you look it over, read it, and know its contents; right?
20 A. And I am putting it to you that I only paid attention to the years
21 of birth and none to the names. I did take care of the year of birth,
22 because up there it says people liable for military duty, and that is why
23 I paid attention to that, and I didn't pay attention to the rest, and that
24 is what I said. Of course, the Honourable Court will take its decision.
25 I cannot say anything else.
1 Q. Thank you, sir. You knew --
2 A. Thank you.
3 Q. -- Mr. Krnojelac, as of the 9th of June, 1992, exactly how many
4 Muslim detainees were in the KP Dom; right?
5 A. I think that I already told you in my testimony so far that from
6 time to time, from time to time, now and then, I knew, I learnt the number
7 of people from the man responsible for the warehouse, because when it came
8 to food, then he would sometimes tell me, "Well, Milorad, there's so many
9 of them."
10 Q. You knew the exact number of people who had passed through the
11 KP Dom as well; right? In other words, people that were brought there and
12 then released. You knew that number as well, didn't you?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You also knew how many military conscripts were working at the
15 KP Dom as of June 9, 1992. That number was 42; right?
16 A. I knew it only on the basis of one document, and at that time I
17 did not know it, nor did I have an occasion or opportunity to know it.
18 Q. What was the one document that you're referring to?
19 A. Well, the one that you mention and in which 38 or I don't know how
20 many people, because it is the document with my signature, and I did not
21 deny that it was my signature, having to do with the mining, then that is
22 it. And I apologise, because I admitted it to my Defence, that that was
23 my signature, and we did not challenge that.
24 Q. You also knew, in June 1992, exactly how many weapons and what
25 kind were available at the KP Dom; right?
1 A. No, I did not know, but it says in this document.
2 Q. You -- this document that you're referring to was a document in
3 which -- which you signed; right?
4 A. If we are talking about the same document, then, yes, if it's
5 about mines.
6 Q. And in the document, you requested that there be mines -- this was
7 a letter to the War Presidency of the Serbian municipality of Foca in
8 which you ask mines to be placed at the KP Dom; right?
9 A. If you allow me, I should like to explain this. If you could also
10 give me the document, I'd like to see it, and I can explain everything
11 that I know about this document.
12 Q. I'd like to ask you first before we get to the document. You
13 requested that mines be put into the KP Dom; right?
14 A. I did not request that mines be placed in the KP Dom.
15 Q. You never ever asked for mines to be placed in the KP Dom for
16 security purposes?
17 A. For no reason, for no reason whatsoever did I ask the mines to be
18 placed in the KP Dom.
19 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the
20 witness shown Exhibit P445.
21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I would like to start first with the second page of
22 this document and ask you if that is your signature and stamp.
23 A. It is.
24 Q. Let's go to the first page then. This is a letter which you wrote
25 and signed to the War Presidency of the Serbian municipality of Foca.
1 It's dated 9th of June, and the letter talks about how you had -- the
2 subject of the letter is a request for mine laying and weapon
4 In your request, you state that on an earlier date, on the 1st of
5 June, 1992, you submitted a request to the Crisis Staff asking for mines
6 to be put down and that experts came to inspect the grounds and agreed
7 with the recommendation but did not actually put the mines in, and that
8 was the reason for this letter of the 9th of June, to get action; right?
9 There was a previous request which was partially followed up on, but
10 because it was not fully implemented, you sent this second request;
12 A. I did not send a request. I did say that I signed it. But a man
13 who fell out of the blue, and I -- that was me who came to become the
14 temporary warden of the penitentiary, reformatory, had I even been there
15 for a longer time, I could never know any one of these items, because I
16 did not have any documentation as to what -- how many people there were,
17 how many people had passed through the KP Dom by then and that I should
18 know how many military conscripts -- how many conscripts should guard
19 those men.
20 This could be written only by a man who had exact information as
21 to how many people had passed through, how many people there were in the
22 KP Dom at the time, how many persons were needed to guard them. Because I
23 am a teacher. How can I know how many people are needed to guard and what
24 their number -- what the necessary number is? I couldn't possibly know
1 So this paper was put on my desk, and I was -- it was said,
2 "Milorad, this is a paper you should sign." Why? In order to put mines
3 in the upper part where it says there are no lights and where there are no
5 And incidentally, to protect the property, because that upper part
6 that is along the KP Dom was unprotected, and because it was also sent
7 from the command to sign it. Mr. Savo Todovic brought this to me, and at
8 that moment, as the temporary warden, without any knowledge about this,
9 that is what I put to you, I signed it, and because he said that that was
10 the only way in which the unit could enter and lay the mines. But they
11 did not put the -- did not put the mines only where it says here in the
12 upper part, they also, unfortunately, that is, alongside the upper part of
13 the fence, on the upper part of the Dom, they also laid those mines, or,
14 rather, not afterwards, but that same day, they also laid the mines in the
15 lower part, in the lower part which did not have any asphalt covering, in
16 the direction of the warehouse where the stocks of the furniture factory
17 were kept.
18 And that is why I say that I'm not competent to say, to give my
19 opinion about this, nor did I have all these elements with me, nor did I
20 know anything about this until that time.
21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you're saying that Savo Todovic prepared this
23 A. He brought it to me so that I would sign it, and I personally
24 think that only the military could know, and he perhaps, and perhaps the
25 guard commander, how many weapons there are in a group. He brought it to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 me to sign it. Whether he wrote it, I cannot say that, because I did not
2 see him do it.
3 Q. Surely you read the document before putting your signature on it,
4 didn't you?
5 A. Well, I read the document, yes, I did. I can't say I didn't,
6 because it would be foolish to sign something without reading it first,
7 and I did not think there was anything bad about it for those people who
8 were in the penitentiary, reformatory. I did not think it was an
9 aggravating circumstance. I thought it was a security element. And
10 because of the property, because above the quarters of the KP Dom is the
11 part where there is a factory, and that is where the central warehouse was
12 and the production materials for that factory and so on and so forth, in
13 that upper part precisely.
14 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, it would also be foolish to sign something if you
15 didn't agree with it; right?
16 A. I've just told you how was it that I signed it, because the
17 security in this upper part and the property itself in the KP Dom.
18 Because it was not lit, there was no outside security. I think it was
19 quite clear when we said that there is the inside security and the outside
20 security. In that part there was no outside security, according to his
22 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you've told us today that your reason for
23 requesting the mines to be laid down was that it was protection for the
24 property that was in that area, but there's nothing in this request that
25 makes any reference whatsoever to property, is there?
1 A. There is something here, somewhere where it says that this upper
2 part is not lit.
3 Q. There is the sentence in paragraph 3, at the second half, where
4 you say:
5 "This is especially relevant, in view of the fact that there is
6 no lighting along the perimeter wall or on the premises of the
7 institution. We have been informed recently that a number of detained
8 persons might try to escape from the institution."
9 So the reason that was given was a fear of escape by the detained
10 persons; right?
11 A. I've just told you that I did not write this and I didn't quote
12 this as a reason. I did not write it, but signed it, I did.
13 Q. And by signing it, you agreed with it; right?
14 A. Well, agreed in the sense that this upper part of the KP Dom does
15 not have any lighting, it is unguarded, so that it could be a kind of
16 protection, both -- also of the property which was in this part, right
17 above, right behind the area serving for the accommodation of detained
18 persons in the KP Dom.
19 Q. You could have written in an additional sentence in this request
20 to say "in order to protect the property." You could have handwritten
21 that in before you signed this, but you didn't do that, did you?
22 A. Well, had I had my today's experience then, but after a month and
23 a half, I didn't have all that experience. Had I had my today's
24 experience, I suppose I would have done that, but a man has no experience,
25 has no knowledge, has no expertise. And presumably, I suppose, at that
1 moment it did not occur to me. But thank you very much. Yes, that would
2 have been a good idea. But I couldn't really -- not everything could
3 occur to me at that time. As for this first date, the 1st of June, that I
4 signed it and wrote it, I put it to you that I did not. And I didn't know
5 about the 1st of June, although it says so here.
6 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, what was the reason for the mining, and who
7 requested it?
8 A. Well, it transpires from this that that was requested by the army
9 command, because they knew that 470 persons -- they knew how many guards
10 they needed. And then from time to time -- and you also agree with me,
11 and other witnesses also said that people went to stand guard. So that is
12 that it often happened that there were not 42, but sometimes there were 31
13 or 30, depending on how many people had gone from the security to the
14 front line, to the line of combat, if I may put it that way, and that is
15 why I think that.
16 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, what was the reason for the mining?
17 A. I have no idea. I'm telling you, I did not write this, and I do
18 not know what the reason was.
19 Q. You've told us today, just a moment ago, that the reason was to
20 protect property. Are you saying that's not true?
21 A. Well, if I say something twice, then you tell me, "We've heard
22 it. Don't go on." And when I say one thing once, then I'd rather not
23 repeat it. One of the reasons, from my point of view, was also the
24 protection of property.
25 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you, in your capacity as the temporary warden,
1 requested that these mines be put in because you had learned that
2 somebody -- that the detainees might try to escape in early June; right?
3 That's what happened. You signed this based on that information; right?
4 A. Based on that information, I am telling you that I didn't sign
5 it. But it was brought, and I was told, "Milorad, you have to sign this
6 document," and I signed it. I read it and signed it. And my only comfort
7 was that because it was not lit and because it was not guarded, that it
8 was also the protection of the KP Dom, and in no way because of this
9 organisation. I had nothing to do with it, and it is obvious that it was
10 the military who wrote it this way, because they were responsible and the
11 guards were responsible for it.
12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, there is nothing in this document that makes
13 reference to the military making this request, is there?
14 A. That's what you think, and my view is what I've just explained.
15 Q. If there was a separate military command making this request to
16 the War Presidency, there's no reason to ask for your signature, is there?
17 A. Please, the entry and laying of mines precisely in a part of the
18 KP Dom, property of KP Dom, they thought that that was the only way how
19 they could enter and lay the mines.
20 Q. There is nothing in this document that says, "At the request of
21 the military, I am giving permission for people to come lay mines." It
22 says that, "As the warden, I am making the request for the mines to be
23 brought in," right, or are you denying what it says?
24 A. I say that I did not write it, that it was written by somebody
25 else. It was written by a person who was -- who knew the situation at the
1 KP Dom very well. And for me, after a month and a half, to know the
2 situation all that well, after this period of time when one first had to
3 take stock of the situation, and for me to know all this, that I knew all
4 that, well, had I been a warden to this day, I wouldn't have known about
5 this thing. But there are people who knew that, and they wrote that, and
6 they did not write it because of me, nor did I write it. And I am telling
7 you, that is how it was, and it's up to you to decide what's more
8 convenient to you.
9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, after you read and signed this document, you knew
10 exactly what weapons there were at the KP Dom; right?
11 A. I do not know where these weapons come from, whether these are the
12 weapons that were received from the military command, or was it found in
13 the KP Dom? I know that the armoury --
14 Q. I didn't ask you where the weapons came from. I'm just saying
15 that after you read this document and signed it on the 9th of June, 1992,
16 you had knowledge of exactly what weapons there were at the KP Dom, right,
17 because it's listed here.
18 A. I never paid any attention to this: who, how much, what kind. I
19 just cast a cursory glance. I wasn't interested to know what, where, who,
20 whether it's in working order, whether it says we don't have ammunition,
21 and so on and so forth.
22 Q. And when you signed this letter, you agreed with the proposition
23 that certain of the weapons be replaced with another kind of weapon which
24 would be more effective and practical for guarding this number of
25 prisoners at the KP Dom; right? That's what the final sentence of this
1 letter says.
2 A. It could only be to satisfy the guard commander for their
3 security. I have nothing to do with it.
4 Q. We'll move on. Mr. Krnojelac, you described --
5 MS. KUO: We don't need this document any more.
6 Q. You described your life and you described how you come from a
7 humble background; right?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. And you stated that when you were assigned to the school in Zavait
10 in 1962, that was by decree; right?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. When you were -- when you had to fulfil your obligation to the
13 army in 1963, that was also by decree, against your wishes; right?
14 A. Well, had I had any other possibility, I wouldn't have gone to
15 serve the army. I would have stayed and left my wife and army, so for me
16 it's an obligation. It's a decree.
17 Q. Sir, the answer is simply yes. When you were --
18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not know why my
20 learned friend asks the -- wants the witness to answer yes if she wants
21 him to explain what she's asking. I also agree that we should move on,
22 but if he feels that it is necessary to explain the answer, to say what is
23 his view of that, I do not know why should he be denied that right and why
24 he should be asked to answer only yes.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, your client concedes he talks too much,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 and that is clearly right. Now, we've done nothing to interfere, but
2 there does come a limit. That question could have been answered yes or
3 no. If there is a need for an explanation, you have the right, in
4 re-examination, to have that explanation given, but a cross-examiner is
5 not obliged to let the witness have his head.
6 Now, she's let him have his head throughout the last three days,
7 and I think the time is coming when we're all getting tired. If the
8 cross-examiner wants the witness to answer yes or no and it is a question
9 which should be and could be answered yes or no, then she is entitled to
10 have it. Now, you take it up in re-examination if you wish, but he's
11 given that explanation at least twice, to my memory, already, and it
12 wasn't necessary for him to say it.
13 We're not fools. We can read the transcript. We know what he
14 said, and it's unnecessary for it to be repeated every time.
15 You proceed, Ms. Kuo.
16 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. When you went to pursue further studies in Sarajevo, you also
18 described it as being under orders. You were ordered to go pursue those
19 studies; right?
20 A. There was a shortage of mathematics and physics teachers, and I
21 was told -- yes.
22 Q. It was not your choice, and you described it as being against your
23 will; right?
24 A. It was partly choice or, rather, willingness to do so.
25 Q. As a result of this which you were ordered to do, you actually got
1 a benefit; right? In other words, as a result of your pursuing these
2 higher studies in Sarajevo, you were able to get a job in Foca rather than
3 the rural towns where you previously taught; right?
4 A. I said that there was also willingness from that point of view, so
5 that I could send my children to high school. One has better chances when
6 one is a mathematics and physics teacher than if one is only a primary
7 schoolteacher, teaching Grades 1 through 4.
8 Q. When you were assigned to be the warden of KP Dom, you've
9 described that as also having been an order against your will; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. But you also got certain benefits from it. For example, you were
12 not sent to the front line like everyone else, and your risks of being
13 killed were greatly minimised; isn't that right?
14 A. That's no privilege, because I already told you that I would have
15 preferred to have been sent anywhere else, but I got orders to go to the
16 KP Dom. That is only an aggravating circumstance.
17 Q. In addition, you had access to a car which you sometimes used for
18 your personal use, not just for KP Dom business; isn't that right?
19 A. I had a family car. My son had a car for personal needs, so I did
20 not need a car for personal needs. And it is mentioned only for -- the
21 other vehicle's only mentioned for business needed by the Drina Economic
23 Q. You got free labour to fix up your house from the Muslim detainees
24 at the KP Dom, didn't you?
25 A. That is just a house that was protected. It was not being
1 repaired. Until the present day, it has not been fully repaired. It was
2 just protected from further dilapidation, and on somebody else's orders,
3 not mine.
4 Q. Labour was provided to you free. You never pay for that, did
6 A. No one ever sent me a bill for that or an invoice.
7 Q. As a result of your having been the warden of KP Dom, you were
8 promised another job within the justice -- within the municipality of
9 Foca; isn't that right?
10 A. A job was not promised to me. Had it been promised to me, I would
11 not have been unemployed for one year.
12 Q. After the one year, during which time efforts were being made to
13 find you a suitable position, you got a job in the Ministry of Education;
15 A. Because again, a lot of work had to be done. It was not a
16 question of resting up. Ten facilities had to be put in working condition
17 so that the younger generations could receive a proper education. And not
18 a single friend of mine went there to enjoy that kind of privilege.
19 Q. During the year when you did not actually do any work, you still
20 got credit for social security purposes; right?
21 A. Well, most fortunately I didn't have to go and see a doctor, but I
22 did have social insurance. That is why it says in that list from the
23 KP Dom that it goes on until 1994, but I did not go to see a doctor a
24 single time during that period.
25 Q. And in fact, why when you finally got a job in September of 1994,
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13 English transcripts.
1 it was as headmaster of the school, which was a promotion; isn't that
3 A. It was no promotion. I just wanted to be a teacher, and that is
4 why in 1998, I did not reapply for the job of principal. But even had I
5 applied, what happened, happened. But even the first time, it was
6 orders. They said, "Here you are. If you want to, you can be principal.
7 If not, nothing."
8 Q. So again, a decision was placed to you in your life where you were
9 ordered to do something against your will; right?
10 A. Then I was given a choice. "Take this or don't come back looking
11 for another job and then try to make do on your own." And since I had no
12 other way out, I had to accept that job too.
13 Q. You were given a choice that was not really a choice, so you were,
14 according to your own description, ordered by decree to be headmaster;
15 isn't that right?
16 A. Thank you very much for having understood me precisely. That's
17 just the way it was.
18 Q. You see your life as a series of decisions that were made by other
19 people, not by yourself; isn't that right?
20 A. Well, I cannot say that that's the way it was in every respect.
21 Most importantly, in my marriage, nobody else made decisions except for
22 the two of us, and I have been most fortunate in that. As for the rest,
23 there are quite a few cases where other people had a significant
24 influence, because had I had any other choice, had I had some property or
25 had I had a different trade that I could have been engaged in, I would
1 have preferred going into agriculture than being principal of a school.
2 Q. The way you see your life, and I'll just use one of the quotes
3 that you gave us, "Everything that has happened to me except death." So
4 you've been a victim all your life; isn't that right?
5 A. I cannot say all my life but a good part of my life. May I just
6 mention this period to you, from the outbreak of the war conflict? My
7 house burned down, my sons had that accident, my daughter-in-law -- oh,
9 Q. We've been through this litany of suffering that you've told us
10 again and again about it and we know about it. That's why I asked you the
11 question, to summarise it. You see your life as having been suffering at
12 the hands of other people; right? That's a pattern. It's not your
13 responsibility. These were things that you were forced to do by other
14 people. Isn't that right?
15 A. That's not the way it was in all segments. There were things that
16 happened without that.
17 Q. You told us about your marriage. I know that that's an
18 exception. You did that freely. But all the other things, the jobs, the
19 things you were forced to do in your professional career, the misfortune
20 that befell you and your family during the war, those were things that
21 were outside your control, that somebody else was to blame; right?
22 A. Well, whether somebody else was to blame or not, I just wanted to
23 add that you heard about my past, about my childhood, but those were good
24 days, nice days, although there were hardships too. Then I worked. But I
25 also had some good days, some fine days. I had my family too. Not
1 everything was bad. During my life, there were nice days, good days, too,
2 when a man enjoyed living in such a society and in such company. I cannot
3 say that it's all dark when there were good things too.
4 As for this, it was the way it was, except that I'm terribly
5 pleased that I had people at the KP Dom who truly accepted the
6 difficulties that I encountered as if they were their own, and they really
7 helped me so that I would not have lost entirely.
8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you knew the basic contents of the Geneva
9 Conventions, right, that they were humanitarian laws about how detainees
10 and prisoners had to be treated humanely; right?
11 A. I said that I had heard of them. But please try to understand
12 me. I had nothing to do with the prisoners, but I tried, as much as I
13 could, to help in any way so that it would be better from the point of
14 view of food, means of hygiene, et cetera.
15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I'll quote your own words from the interview you
16 gave to the investigators of the Prosecution's office regarding humane
17 relations and humanitarian law. You said: "A person that possesses even
18 a bit of soul has them already, so to speak, within himself."
19 That's accurate; right?
20 A. That's accurate.
21 Q. You didn't actually have to read any particular documents to know
22 right from wrong and humane from inhumane. You already have that built in
23 as a human being; isn't that right?
24 A. If I am clear with myself, that I do not have internal hatred
25 towards other people, and if I will only work to help them, I believe that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 is humane. But also, it is never a waste of time to read all these
2 materials like the Geneva Conventions and everything else, because you
3 never know when you may need that, as we can see.
4 However, even had I read them, I could not do anything but what I
5 have done because I was not in charge of the detained persons.
6 Q. These are not the questions. I am trying to go through the very
7 last 15 minutes of the day in a very structured way, and you do not need
8 to repeat what you have told us repeatedly already. So just please listen
9 to the question and answer.
10 When -- after your first day at the KP Dom and you saw the Muslim
11 detainees there, you went home and you told your wife that you saw Muslim
12 detainees at the KP Dom, didn't you?
13 A. No. No. On the first day, I did not go back home. I spent the
14 night at the KP Dom. Please.
15 Q. The first night when you did go back, you told your wife that you
16 saw Muslim detainees at the KP Dom, didn't you?
17 A. When I came not home but to Cerezluk where I lived, I told her.
18 Q. You told her -- you didn't tell her that they were suffering, did
20 A. Well, I only saw them through the window. How could I know that
21 they were suffering and how they felt?
22 Q. But you told your wife that you were not in charge of the Muslims,
23 and you told her that to reassure her; right?
24 A. Well, I said that to her because it was the Uzice Unit that was in
25 charge of that, the unit that was there.
1 Q. You also had frequent contact with Zarko Vukovic during the war;
2 right? And he knew your role at the KP Dom; right?
3 A. These were not frequent contacts, but there were contacts, and he
4 knew what my role was. That's right.
5 Q. When you told him that you were concerned that you might be on the
6 list of indicted persons by this Tribunal, he reassured you by saying that
7 if you had been on the list -- that you were not on the list, because if
8 you had been on the list, you would have already been arrested; right?
9 A. Please, where did you get that kind of information from? I never
10 could have thought of this. It never could have crossed my mind that I
11 could have come to the International Tribunal for having worked at the
12 KP Dom. I don't see where you got this information from, because a man
13 who does his job in an economic organisation, that he could come to answer
14 for things he is not guilty of, I can't understand that.
15 I'm sorry that I have to repeat this for the Honourable Court, but
16 I was arrested. I had left my apartment and --
17 Q. Sir --
18 A. Sorry. I'm sorry.
19 Q. Are you saying that you never told Zarko Vukovic that you were
20 concerned that you might be on the list of indicted persons? You never
21 said that to him?
22 A. I never said this to him. I just said that if I knew that I was
23 in any way a suspect, I would have gone immediately and voluntarily given
24 myself up when Kunarac had surrendered. That's what I stated.
25 Q. You were already worried that you were on the list of indicted
1 persons by the end of 1997; isn't that right?
2 A. I was never worried. I never thought that I could be accused or
3 suspected, whichever way you want to put it.
4 Q. I'd like to show you Exhibit P7, which is your ID, dated 1995.
5 I'll give you the original and the photocopy can be placed on the ELMO.
6 This is your identification card dated 11 January 1995, with your
7 photograph; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And all the information contained in this document is accurate;
10 isn't that right?
11 A. The 25th of July, Stipe Stjepanovic [phoen], last in Birotici,
12 Foca, Milorad Krnojelac. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. KUO: I'd like to have the witness shown Exhibit P8. Again,
15 he can get the original and the photocopy can go on the ELMO.
16 Q. This, Mr. Krnojelac, is an identification card, again with your
17 photograph. It's a different photograph. It's issued from December 1st,
18 1997. And this shows a false name, Marko Kostic, with a false date of
19 birth; isn't that right?
20 A. Yes, that's just the way it is.
21 Q. And you carried both the real identification card and the false
22 identification card with you; isn't that right?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. But I explained why it was carried.
1 Q. You told us that you were aghast when you received this false
2 identification card, and yet, instead of putting it away or throwing it
3 away, you carried it in your pocket and it was found on you on the date of
4 your arrest; isn't that right?
5 A. It was found on the day of the arrest. I carried both in my
7 MS. KUO: Thank you. We're done with these documents.
8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you didn't care at all what happened to the Muslim
9 detainees, did you? You didn't care at all what happened to them; right?
10 A. How can you say that I didn't care? How able I was to know what
11 was going on is another question, but I care about every person and I care
12 about what's going on to any person. Because I lived in that kind of a
13 milieu, and because of the children and because of the pupils, everyone
14 was important to me, and their problems, and everything that had to do
15 with their parents too.
16 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, I will quote to you from your interview with the
17 investigators the 13th of July, 2000, and it's Exhibit P48. In the
18 English it's page 36, lines 16 through 18, and in the B/C/S it's page 33,
19 lines 3 through 6. You state:
20 "I don't know what happened, what was in the civilian part, and in
21 the final analysis, I don't care what was in the civilian part, just as I
22 don't care what happened in the part controlled by the military, for which
23 I was not responsible."
24 It was all the same to you, wasn't it? You didn't care about
25 anyone but yourself; isn't that right?
1 A. I don't know how all of this has been translated, but I cannot
2 remember having said something like that, that I did not care. Because,
3 at any rate, even had I said something like that, heaven forbid, that I
4 did not care, it cannot be said that way, when I took care of food and
5 accommodation and various resources, and now I'm saying that I didn't
6 care. I don't know what was done with this. I don't know how this was
7 translated. I cannot remember that I said something like that. Had I
8 said -- if I said something like that, I apologise, I truly apologise. I
9 said a few minutes ago that I cared, I really cared. Perhaps not the
10 right word was chosen. I did not know what was going on. Perhaps this
11 was not translated quite concretely. It's not that I did not care.
12 Indeed I cared, because these were my friends and colleagues, as I said.
13 Q. I'll show you the document, then.
14 A. No, I'm not doubting your document. Please, I'm not doubting your
15 document. I'm just saying that I cannot allow myself to have said
16 something like that. I don't know whether it was translated properly or
17 whether I blurted out something. It is a possibility that I said that I
18 did not know what was going on, but that I said that I did not care what
19 was going on, I could not accept that.
20 MS. KUO: No further questions.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Re-examined by Mr. Bakrac:
24 Q. [Interpretation] I'll start from the end. I'll start from the
25 end, since you cautioned me, and this is an answer to a question, and the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 question was not read out to us and I'm going to read the question now.
2 In response to Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff's question --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down. The
4 interpreters do not have this.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Just slow down, Mr. Bakrac. This is not a speed test
6 for the interpreters, please.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Especially not at the end of a
8 working day.
9 Q. Q. Do you know what punishment was envisaged for
10 stealing bread in your civilian part, for example?
11 A. Oh, my goodness. In the civilian part, I don't know
12 what was there, not at all. So ultimately, I'm not
13 interested in what took place in the civilian part
14 or what happened in the military part, where I was
15 not responsible. It seems to me that you really
16 want to accuse me of something that I'm not guilty
18 Can you explain this to us? Did you mean, generally speaking,
19 that you did not care about what was going on, or can you explain to us
20 what you were thinking when you made this kind of statement?
21 A. As far as I understood this, it is a question of bread, and in
22 that case, really, because I did not know what would happen if a convict
23 had stolen a piece of bread or did I see a detainee steal a slice of
24 bread, I could not have known what could have happened or what would have
25 been done about that slice of bread. Because that seems strange to me
1 that for a slice of bread, even in wartime, that somebody would have to be
2 held accountable for that. That's the sense in which I meant it. And
3 this other thing, no way. Heaven forbid. I would never say anything like
4 that, even in the hardest possible situation. I wouldn't have said that
5 for them or for anyone. It just had to do with a slice of bread, and I
6 did not know if something like that was happening, whether somebody
7 punished them for that or not. In my opinion, they should not have been
8 punished. Nobody should be punished for that.
9 Q. I'm going to ask you quite directly in respect of this. In
10 response to my learned friend's questions, you were telling us about your
11 suffering. Do you think that the Muslim detainees also suffered because
12 they were detained at the KP Dom?
13 A. If I compare this to this time that I have spent now in gaol,
14 since I am suffering, most probably they have suffered too. Because,
15 please, when they gave statements, when listening to their statements,
16 their witness statements, when they made these statements, believe me that
17 I was living through all of this as if I had felt all of that myself. I'm
18 in prison too. So a lot in respect of what will happen to me depends on
19 their statements, and I'm not to be blamed at all for the statements that
20 they have given, for what they have said in their statements, and their
21 statements are not entirely truthful, but their statements can be one of
22 the reasons why I am here now.
23 Q. My learned friend read out a sentence to you from the interview
24 that you gave on the 6th of June, 2000, on page 30. If the Prosecution
25 agrees, this is one sentence. I'm going to repeat it so that we do not
1 waste time. I don't want to give it to you to read it. This is in line
2 28 in the B/C/S version. You said, "One morning the commander of the
3 Tactical Group came. He came to my office. We said hello and he asked
4 me, 'Milorad, could I do a job at your place?'" Can you explain this,
5 what this meant, "at your place"?
6 A. I can't say whether he said, "I would like to do a job. I would
7 like to do something in your office, at your place. Three detainees will
8 come, so that I can talk to them." Of course I said that that was all
9 right, and I ordered coffee, but I did not attend the meeting. They just
10 had this coffee.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's 4.00.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. We'll adjourn in a moment. We're not sitting
13 tomorrow because of the security requirements for the building. We'll
14 resume on Wednesday.
15 Mr. Bakrac, without in any way seeking to limit you, have you got
16 any idea how long you may be on Wednesday.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we still owe you some
18 translations and some documents. As for the re-examination, I don't think
19 it will go on for longer than half an hour, that is to say, technical
20 questions regarding the tendering of certain translations into evidence.
21 As for the Defence, I think that we will be able to finish everything
22 during the first morning session.
23 JUDGE HUNT: What we have in mind in relation to the final briefs
24 would be to require them to be delivered, filed, by Friday, the 13th,
25 which would give you more than the week that you were originally promised,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 and then list the matter for oral submissions the following Wednesday, the
3 I want to remind both parties that the written submissions, the
4 final brief, is not intended to be a complete review of the whole trial.
5 We have the transcript. We have very careful summaries of the evidence.
6 What we want to know are the submissions that each party wants to make on
7 the various factual issues which we have to determine, and we don't want
8 it expressed in long, argumentive pages. We want your submission, any
9 brief argument you want to put in support of it, and the transcript
10 references of the evidence you want us to read in relation to that
11 particular matter. If you have any further legal submissions, that is,
12 further to the legal submissions you made in your Pre-Trial briefs, by all
13 means add to them, but we don't want you merely to repeat them. Then,
14 when we come back for the oral arguments, we will, of course, allow you to
15 make some final peroration on behalf of the Prosecution and the Defence,
16 but we would not expect that to be of any substantial length. What we
17 expect you to do mainly in those oral submissions is to provide an answer,
18 where you wish to, to any of the submissions put in the written final
19 briefs. In the final briefs, yes, in the final written briefs. So there
20 is not a lot of repetition.
21 Now, we won't make those orders just at this stage, but we would
22 like to hear from you on Wednesday morning whether you have any reasonable
23 objection to those dates. We are very anxious that we are able to be able
24 to start making some fairly final decisions on factual issues before the
25 end of the month so that the writing of the judgement can be well underway
1 during the summer vacation.
2 So with those admonitions, we'll adjourn now until 9.30 on
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.05 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of July,
6 2001, at 9.30 a.m.