1 Wednesday, 29 March 2000
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.15 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
7 morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning,
8 interpreters, I can see that you are there; good
9 morning, sound engineers, counsel for the Prosecution,
10 for the Defence, General Krstic; and also good morning
11 to the witness and his interpreter.
12 We shall now resume our case, the Krstic
13 case. For the record, we are all here, the same,
14 except for Judge Wald, who, for urgent and pressing
15 matters, could not join us. Under Rule 15 bis,
16 paragraph (A), the two Judges, Judge Riad and I,
17 believe that the interests of justice, that is, a fair
18 and expedient process, requires that we continue
19 hearing this case.
20 During the absence of Judge Wald, and she
21 will be absent for three days, we have decided to
22 continue hearing the case, and we shall do so by
23 hearing the evidence that was begun yesterday by the
24 witness who is already in the witness box.
25 Mr. McCloskey, it is now up to you. I should
1 like to remind the witness and his interpreter that you
2 are both under oath, and you will now continue to give
3 your testimony. Mr. McCloskey, it is now really time
4 for you. Thank you.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 WITNESS: WITNESS F [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examined by Mr. McCloskey: [Cont'd]
9 Q. Witness F, I believe we left off yesterday
10 where you had described the bodies you'd seen and
11 photographed, and you were describing them on the
13 Now, let me ask you, how close were you able
14 to get to those bodies and view them?
15 A. Approximately 20 to 25 metres. I was on a
16 slope, on an incline, so I didn't see straight ahead.
17 I looked downwards.
18 Q. Were you able to make out the kinds of
19 clothes that the people were wearing?
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,
21 Mr. McCloskey. The French booth did not hear your
22 question. Could you repeat it, please?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
24 Q. Were you able to make out the different kinds
25 of clothing that the people were wearing?
1 A. Yes, I could. The victims had all civilian
2 clothes; some of them had blue jeans, pullovers,
3 coats. But there were no persons with military
5 Q. Could you make out the sexes of the victims?
6 A. They were all men between the ages of
7 approximately 15 to --
8 THE INTERPRETER: -- 45, I believe the
9 witness said. The interpreter is not sure.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY:
11 Q. Can you state that again? There was a little
12 bit of an interpretation problem. They didn't make out
13 your last answer.
14 A. They were all men, in the age group 15 to
16 Q. And were you able to see any injury on any of
17 these victims?
18 A. Yes. Some of them had bloodstains on their
19 backs and at the back of their heads.
20 Q. And what did you do after seeing these
21 victims and photographing them?
22 A. I climbed back up and I joined my colleague
23 who was standing on guard there. I looked at him. I
24 was in shock. And we immediately returned to the
1 Q. And about what time was that, if you can
3 A. Around noon.
4 Q. And did you go back outside the compound any
5 time that day?
6 A. After returning to the compound, I returned,
7 I had a cup of coffee, and then I went back outside.
8 Q. And what was going on outside the compound?
9 A. People were still being deported, taken to
10 buses, just like the first day, actually.
11 Q. And I believe you discussed this briefly, but
12 can you tell us what the senior VRS officers you saw
13 there -- out there that day?
14 A. High-ranking officers, they were all present
15 again. Some of them were just standing and looking
16 whether things were going according to plan, and for
17 the rest, they didn't do much.
18 Q. And can you name the officers whose names you
19 now know?
20 A. The person present in the courtroom was
21 there, and some others, some people who just were
22 walking around, not so many, and that was all.
23 Q. How about General Mladic?
24 A. He was also present, indeed, yes.
25 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. He said they were
1 standing and looking. He didn't say looking at what
2 and standing where. Can I just ask?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those officers
4 were in the vicinity, standing near the vicinity of the
5 main compound, near the interrogation house, and they
6 were just watching whether everything was going to
7 plan, and some of them also went towards the direction
8 of Srebrenica, the officers.
9 JUDGE RIAD: Near the interrogation house or
10 near the bodies?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Next to the
12 interrogation house is where the officers were.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. And how long did it take until all of the
15 Muslims were transported from the area outside the
17 A. Till about dusk, 6.00 or 7.00 in the evening,
18 since it was summertime. I would like to repeat that I
19 don't remember the times, I didn't -- when you live
20 through such days, you don't watch the time, you don't
21 look at your watch. One is a bit unstable.
22 Q. Did you see anything happen to the belongings
23 that were in front of the White House after everyone
24 was transported out of the area?
25 A. All around the compound, there were many
1 personal belongings belonging to those Muslim
2 civilians, mainly next to this White House, the
3 interrogation house. The belongings of all those men
4 were heaped up, the men who had been separated. Most
5 of those belongings were just put on one big heap and
6 then were set afire.
7 Q. And were you able to photograph this?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could show the
10 witness Exhibit 62.
11 Q. Do you recognise this photograph as a
12 photograph you took?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And approximately when was this taken?
15 A. During the end of the evening, when dusk
17 Q. And was that the same day that the Muslims
18 were finally all transported out of the area?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And were you able to see who lit this pile of
21 belongings on fire?
22 A. Negative.
23 Q. Could it have been Dutch soldiers?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Now, the soldiers you saw in black that
1 you've described earlier, did you ever get close enough
2 to them to be able to identify if they had any emblems
3 on insignias on them?
4 A. Yes, indeed, I was close to them, but I
5 couldn't see any emblems.
6 Q. Were you able to make out any emblems or
7 insignia on any of the soldiers that you were close
8 enough to see during those two days?
9 A. No. The infantry units only had little
10 strips of fabric on their shoulders, just to show that
11 they were belonging together, and of course the police
12 cars had the letters "Police" written on them. And
13 that was all the emblems I could see.
14 Q. So did you stay in Potocari for about another
15 week, and then -- until you were finally shipped out
16 with the rest of your colleagues?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions,
19 Mr. President.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
21 Mr. McCloskey.
22 Now, Witness F, the time has come for you to
23 answer the questions which Mr. Petrusic, as I see, will
24 ask you. He is one of the counsel for the defence of
25 General Krstic.
1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,
2 Your Honours, my learned friends.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:
4 Q. Good morning, Witness F. In the beginning of
5 your testimony, and today, you referred to units
6 dressed in black uniforms. Did these units have their
7 own command?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And independently of units wearing camouflage
10 uniforms of somewhat poorer quality, operated on their
11 own, operated independently?
12 A. No, they were independent of the black
14 Q. Yes. My question is they operated
15 independently of other units, didn't they?
16 A. Yes. They didn't do any business with other
17 infantry units.
18 Q. So those other infantry units had their own
19 command, didn't they?
20 A. Yes. They mainly consisted of NCOs who went
21 along with them, along the lines, and the people in
22 black had their own commanders. So they were separate
23 from each other.
24 Q. These units, just for the sake of
25 identification, I will call them the same way you did,
1 that is, poorer dressed units, wearing uniforms of
2 worse quality, engaged in combat with the Muslim units,
3 didn't they?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Could you tell us where precisely was this
6 combat in relation to Bratunac-Srebrenica road? Where
7 was fighting taking place?
8 A. If I could have a map, I could show you, just
9 to clear things up.
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
11 just a moment while we show the witness the exhibit.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
13 Mr. Petrusic.
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
15 Perhaps it would even be better if -- Mr. Dubuisson is
16 suggesting to use Exhibit 2, and then the witness
17 perhaps could show it on that map.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 Mr. Dubuisson will help us now.
20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
21 may I make a suggestion, please? Perhaps this will,
22 after all, be a better solution.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I
24 think you are right, Mr. Petrusic, and I think we
25 should remove the big map, if it is not necessary. If
1 the small map is put on the ELMO, then we can all see
2 it. And perhaps we shall not need the big map,
3 Mr. Dubuisson, perhaps it could be removed. I think
4 that it blocks the view for our interpreters, and they
5 do need to have at least visual communication with
6 Mr. Petrusic.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I should also
8 like to ask Mr. Petrusic the number of the exhibit.
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, for the
10 record, Exhibit 5A of the Prosecution.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I
12 think it is better now, because otherwise we would have
13 to go into a closed session because if the witness had
14 to move about, then it would be difficult to provide
15 the protection measures.
16 Yes, Mr. Petrusic, I think now it will be all
18 A. At that moment, when I was on my location,
19 looking towards Bratunac, OP Papa, to the eastern side
20 there were a couple of Muslim fighters, so that is that
21 side [indicates]; to the north we heard sounds, heavy
22 engine sounds, heavy vehicles. It later turned out to
23 be a Russian T-55 tank. They came from the
24 direction -- they came from the western direction. The
25 Muslim fighters fired light mortar from the east
1 towards north, and this fire was answered by Serb
2 machine-gun fire, not tank fire. And their position
3 was such -- my position was such that I saw the shells
4 coming in, I had to crouch behind my sandbag from time
5 to time, because also our position was a bit harmed by
7 In the days before the fall of the enclave,
8 there were -- for a couple of days, there was heavy
9 artillery fire to be heard around Srebrenica, and it
10 all came from the north into Srebrenica. A couple of
11 times we had to hide in our bunkers, and in the
12 vicinity of Potocari, here [indicates] in the
13 mountains, there was quite some fire. It was heavy
14 machine-gun fire and mortar shellings.
15 From this direction [indicates], here were
16 Serb positions, there was heavy fire with cannon fire.
17 MT-12 was the type of those cannons, and that went on
18 for a couple of days. Thank you.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
20 Mr. Petrusic, I'm sorry to cut in, but perhaps we need
21 to have a synthesis of what the witness said, because
22 we are receiving the interpretation "from here to
23 here," but we do not know where he was. Could you give
24 us the coordinate points? Where is Bratunac? Where is
25 Srebrenica? And where was the witness? I think it
1 will be a synthesis, but this is merely a suggestion,
2 Mr. Petrusic.
3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Precisely that
4 is what I wanted to ask about the road between Bratunac
5 and Srebrenica.
6 Q. Where exactly did the fighting between Serb
7 and Muslim forces take place?
8 If I may be allowed to continue. The
9 witness, when pointing, because we have those figures
10 on the map, perhaps he will keep the pointer on the
11 figure, or rather on the box, on the square, that he's
13 A. My position was in map square 91, this square
14 here [indicates], at the top of this square. I was
15 looking towards map square 64, 65, the square under 65,
16 90, and 63. The Muslim fighters were all in the map
17 square here [indicates], under this, so that's 59, and
18 they fired from 59 to --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please
20 repeat the last number? Could the witness please
21 repeat the last number?
22 A. Square 59 is where the Muslim fighters fired
23 their mortars, towards square 64, this general
24 direction [indicates], and this fire was answered with
25 machine-gun fire, and from time to time cannon shots.
1 My position was such that I saw the shells come in and
2 land in this location [indicates]. Sometimes I had to
3 hide behind my position because of the detonations and
4 the shells.
5 In the days before that, before the enclave
6 fell, there was heavy firing from square 64 -- or, I
7 correct myself, 65, up till 83, up to and including
8 83. Along this line [indicates], there was heavy
9 artillery mortar fire, and the fire was so heavy that
10 the compound was shaking in this vicinity.
11 Around the compound Potocari, I will mark
12 this with a circle here, there were quite some fights
13 taking place in the woods here [indicates]. From the
14 direction of Budak here, square 63, we heard heavy
15 engine sounds. It later turned out to be a tank, T-55,
16 a Russian T-55 tank. It turned on the way to
17 Srebrenica, and later on it entered Srebrenica.
18 Behind the tank there was an armoured vehicle
19 with an anti-aircraft -- which was used for shooting at
20 houses, and of course there were many infantry units
21 with them.
22 The Muslim fighters which were here already
23 were seen to be running back and forth while they were
24 fired at, looking for new positions in the field. In
25 63, there were also quite some Muslim fighters.
1 Apparently, they tried to resist against advancing Serb
2 military, in square 63 to 66.
3 I could see all of this, I observed it from
4 my position, my location on the compound, in map square
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Mr. President. My
7 colleague has pointed out to me that it's not clear who
8 had the anti-aircraft gun, and perhaps that's an
9 important factor for this discussion.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I
11 think that there have been quite a few problems with
12 interpretation here. I believe that the French
13 interpretation has more or less followed, but while
14 Mr. McCloskey was speaking, they were still
15 interpreting the words of the witness. We should try
16 to figure out exactly where the anti-aircraft gun was
17 positioned, I believe that that was the question.
18 After the witness has answered to that question, I will
19 then ask Mr. Petrusic to ask specific questions because
20 the witness has already covered quite a few facts.
21 But let me ask the witness the following
22 question: If we look at the map, if we look at the
23 circle on the map, I think that Bratunac is in the
24 north-westerly direction, whereas Srebrenica is
25 situated towards south. Is that the case, Witness?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you
3 therefore be more specific and tell us the exact
4 position of the AA gun?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This
6 anti-aircraft gun was placed on a vehicle. I'm not
7 familiar with the kind of vehicle, but the
8 anti-aircraft gun was a ZSU-23.2 [Interpreter's Note:
9 "ZSU-23.2" I believe the witness said] it came from
10 the direction of OP Papa. It was the direction
11 of the compound Potocari, towards the direction of
12 Srebrenica. It halted at the edge of a wood,
13 approximately at a distance of three kilometers --
14 no, I correct myself -- two kilometres from the
15 compound. They were firing at the positions in the
16 eastern direction, in map square 92, where the Muslim
17 fighters were at that moment.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
19 Mr. Petrusic, could you now ask your question.
20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes,
21 Mr. President. My first question was also quite
22 specific, but the witness elaborated on it. I will
23 continue asking very specific questions, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
25 then. But both of you, both you, Mr. Petrusic, and
1 counsel for the Prosecution, can always ask the
2 witness -- can always remind the witness to give
3 specific answers.
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Bearing that in mind, therefore, could you
6 tell us the time of day when this conflict between
7 Serbian and Bosnian forces occurred?
8 A. They were already busy quite early in the
9 morning on that day, and the nearer the Serbs advanced,
10 the fights became heavier. And during the previous
11 days, of course, there were also -- we heard some
12 fights --
13 Q. Yes. Thank you. Could you now tell us what
14 date it was?
15 A. We're mainly talking about the first day.
16 Q. Could you perhaps refer us to a specific
17 event which took place on a date which you are sure
18 about, to put it somehow in context? And then in
19 respect of that date, if you can please tell us the
20 exact date of this particular event, which is now
21 interesting for us.
22 A. Those -- around the days of the 10th and the
23 11th, until the Serbs had entered the enclave, then
24 there was hardly any fighting anymore. But I can't
25 very well remember the dates. We just lived from day
1 to day.
2 Q. Yesterday, Witness F, you testified about a
3 police transporter or personnel carrier that arrived in
5 A. Do you mean the blue vehicle?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. That's correct. It had also arrived, yes.
8 Q. You refer to it as a police personnel
10 A. That vehicle was a blue vehicle. It was very
11 distinctive between all that green materiel. It was an
12 armoured vehicle, on wheels.
13 Q. Were there any police forces in Potocari?
14 A. Yes. When the troops had all entered, there
15 were also police officers present, and they mainly
16 drove Volkswagen Golfs, [Interpreter's Note: "Type E,"
17 I believe the witness said]. Blue ones.
18 Q. When did the Muslim refugees start arriving
19 in Potocari from the direction of Srebrenica? Could
20 you tell us the date, please?
21 A. The refugees already had realised that the
22 tension was mounting, so those refugees had been
23 gathering a couple of days before the fall, they had
24 been gathering around the compound. But to repeat, I
25 don't know all the dates.
1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
2 Mr. President -- very well, then.
3 Q. Witness F, do you know where the transport of
4 refugees from Potocari towards Bratunac by buses had
6 A. Around noon.
7 Q. On what day, please?
8 A. Directly after the fall of the enclave, after
9 the Serbs had entered.
10 Q. Was it on the day after the fall of the
12 A. The same day the enclave fell and the Serbs
13 marched next to the compound, immediately vehicles were
14 put on the disposal for the refugees, to take them
16 Q. Did the enclave fall on the 11th of July?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Therefore, can we say that the evacuations
19 started on the 12th -- I'm sorry, on the 11th of July?
20 A. Immediately after the Serbs had entered, the
21 buses and trucks came to transport those people. They
22 came immediately behind the troops. So it was
24 Q. So this took place on the 11th of July?
25 A. To my knowledge, yes.
1 Q. Was it on that day that you first saw General
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. The next time you saw him was on the
5 following day?
6 A. I saw him during two days; that's correct.
7 Q. So it was on the following day?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could we say that you yourself concluded
10 that, in addition to other officers, General Krstic was
11 trying to look after the things, was trying to make
12 sure that everything was going on according to a plan?
13 A. Yes. I think that was the case. Of course,
14 I didn't know at that time what his function was.
15 There were several officers present whom I didn't
16 know. And it was their affair, of course.
17 Q. So it was your conclusion?
18 A. Yes, because such an operation is led on a
19 high level, and that high level is usually present to
20 see whether everything is going according to plan. Why
21 else would they be there?
22 Q. So after the second time you saw General
23 Krstic, you never saw him again in that area?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Did you know that a higher ranking officer of
1 the VRS was arrested and that proceedings have been
2 opened against him before this International Tribunal?
3 A. I knew that there were proceedings going on,
4 but I never really followed against whom and why. I
5 don't have time for that. I'm too busy with my work.
6 Q. A film was shown here in the Netherlands,
7 whose authors, I believe, are some BBC journalists.
8 The subject of the film were the events which took
9 place in July 1995 in Srebrenica. The title of the
10 film was "A Cry from the Grave" or "A Scream from the
11 Grave." Have you seen that film, by any chance?
12 A. Actually, during five years, I only heard
13 negative things about Srebrenica. That is why I did
14 not -- I didn't want to deal with Srebrenica anymore.
15 I had enough of it, like many of us. And I was not
16 interested in Srebrenica anymore. I've been harassed
17 by these events for long enough now.
18 Q. And lastly, Witness F, I should like to know
19 whether, when you saw General Krstic, whether you also
20 saw him giving any orders to his subordinates, to his
21 subordinate officers?
22 A. Of course I was not with the commanders, but
23 if anything was discussed, it was said and it was
24 talked about, and they made gestures and they moved
25 their arms. But I don't know what was said. I don't
1 understand the language. Of course, there were
2 directions to follow plans.
3 In the army, usually the case is that an
4 order is given out, but it's never carried out as it
5 was given, so you always have to adapt it.
6 Q. But in this particular case, do you know
7 which instructions we are talking about? I mean, the
8 instructions emanating from General Krstic. And if you
9 could please give me a yes or no to this question.
10 A. It was mainly about the transport being
11 speeded up --
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
13 I apologise, but I wanted a simple yes or no answer
14 from the witness.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness F,
16 you have been asked a question by Mr. Petrusic, who
17 wanted to know whether you are able to -- that is,
18 whether you were able to hear the instructions that
19 were allegedly given by General Krstic to his
20 subordinate officers, and I think that the answer
21 should be yes or no.
22 I hope I'm correctly interpreting your
23 intervention, Mr. Petrusic.
24 So, please, yes or no.
25 A. I didn't understand the language, but orders
1 were given.
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. We have a bit of a contradictory answer here,
4 because if you do not understand the language --
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
6 Mr. Petrusic -- sorry. I believe the witness has
7 answered your question. Apparently, there is a slight
8 contradiction, but the witness is a soldier and I
9 believe that he's able to understand the so-called
10 non-verbal aspects of the communication. He said that
11 he did not hear the General give instructions because
12 he doesn't speak the language, but it was his
13 impression that he was giving instructions. So I think
14 that we should accept this.
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
16 Your Honour. I do not have any more questions for this
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
19 Mr. Petrusic, I did not want to interrupt the
20 cross-examination, but I think that we should avoid
21 repeating what was already said during the direct
22 examination. We should have a very specific context,
23 lay some foundations, and then ask specific questions.
24 We, of course, have a possibility to discuss later on
25 evidence given by witnesses in general. There will be
1 enough time for that, and the Defence, as well as the
2 Prosecution, will have an opportunity to do so at the
3 end, to make their submissions. At this point in time,
4 we are just hearing the evidence. You are doing your
5 job, both the Defence and the Prosecution, and we, the
6 Judges, are listening.
7 So in future cases, please try not to oblige
8 the witness to repeat what has already been said during
9 the direct examination, and try to restrict yourself to
10 specific and concrete questions. Thank you, once
11 again, Mr. Petrusic.
12 Mr. McCloskey, will there be any redirect
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just briefly, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
16 Mr. McCloskey, let us hear you.
17 Re-examined by Mr. McCloskey:
18 Q. I believe you've testified that you're not
19 sure about the various dates of these incidents; is
20 that correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Are you clear that the day that the Bosnian
23 Serb troops came into Potocari is the same day that the
24 transportation of the refugees began?
25 A. When the Serbs had entered, immediately after
1 them the vehicles arrived in order to transport the
2 people. That's correct.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. I don't have
4 anything further, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
6 Mr. McCloskey.
7 Judge Fouad Riad.
8 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you,
9 Mr. President.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE RIAD: I'll call you Witness F. Good
12 morning. My questions will be of a general character
13 and would help us draw the conclusions without going
14 into details most of the time. In fact, my questions
15 turn around to main things, the role of the Drina Corps
16 in this organisation, which you mentioned was very well
17 organised and it was a well-prepared stage.
18 Now, what was the role of the Drina Corps, in
19 your opinion, in this very well-organised stage? Was
20 it a prominent role? Was it a leading role? What was
21 your assessment?
22 A. In my opinion, to cleanse the area as quickly
23 as possible, mop it up from all sides. As you know,
24 there were also military advancing from Srebrenica.
25 And from the vicinity of Bratunac, also units were
1 advancing. So they closed the whole Muslim fighting
2 area. That was a prepared operation, very well
3 prepared indeed. And immediately afterwards, they
4 mopped up the area, cleared it of all resistance, so
5 that within a couple of days the area was under their
6 command. So that the main road from Bratunac towards
7 Srebrenica was in their own hands, because for them
8 that was a main road in this area.
9 JUDGE RIAD: And the Drina Corps was there
10 all the time?
11 A. Yes, it was always present.
12 JUDGE RIAD: Always present. And it is also
13 a well-organised corps. What you said, that the Serbs
14 were very well-organised, this applies also to the
15 Drina Corps?
16 A. Yes, certainly.
17 JUDGE RIAD: And a good chain of command?
18 I'm repeating you. With a good chain of command?
19 A. Yes, indeed, there was very good command.
20 They were disciplined men, they were experienced
21 military men. Indeed, it was a well-planned
23 JUDGE RIAD: You did not notice that some
24 soldiers were just going wild and doing whatever they
25 wanted, killing or raping, whatever they wanted?
1 A. During the first stage, what I for myself --
2 what I called the disciplined military, had the main
3 area to mop up the area as quickly as possible. And
4 the second stage, those were the Rambo-types, a bit
5 wild, indeed, who looted other houses, took away
6 belongings, and I'm sure they have -- they committed --
7 the witnesses who committed human rights, they were
8 under the command of another commanding person. I
9 think they were kind of temporary soldiers, like
10 temps. I don't think that the first line committed
11 those acts, because they didn't have time for that.
12 They had another duty. They had the duty to empty the
13 area of rebels and resistance.
14 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned several cases
15 where you saw General Krstic. I noted them, but of
16 course you know them as well as I. He was with General
17 Mladic when he was distributing the sweets to the
18 children, and then you saw him when he wanted to enter
19 the compound to see how many refugees were there.
20 That's the first day.
21 You apparently saw him the second day, around
22 the White House, looking whether everything went
23 according to plan. And you also mentioned that you saw
24 him with high-ranking officers of the VRS, standing and
25 looking around to see if everything was according to
1 plan, near the interrogation house. Apart from other
3 And also you mentioned that he was there to
4 see that everything was going according to plan.
5 Now, doesn't that really -- that doesn't
6 really fit in, when you say that the others were doing
7 what they wanted. If he was there to see if everything
8 was going to plan, then there was someone in control of
9 the situation. Was he in control of the situation?
10 A. Indeed, he was constantly present, but those
11 rebels or those Rambo-types just went their own way.
12 On the second day, when I took the pictures
13 in the vicinity, the pictures of the bodies, there were
14 many Rambo-types around. They guarded the surroundings
15 and they were in houses and on chairs, all sitting on
16 material belonging to Muslims, and they used stuff and
17 they took it along, and he didn't say anything about
18 it. Those people carried alcohol, cigarettes. They
19 had stolen our watches, our weapons, and nothing was
20 said about that.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Now, to take an example, when
22 you mentioned today that he was with high-ranking
23 officers, standing and looking around, I even asked you
24 what he was looking at. And the dead bodies which you
25 spoke about, with the bloodstains on the back of their
1 heads and so on, were lying behind -- were lying behind
2 the interrogation house. Was it possible that he would
3 just not see anything of what's happening?
4 A. Nine to ten corpses which I found were
5 diagonally in an open field at the edge of a forest,
6 near a creek, behind the interrogation house, about 700
7 metres from the compound. I don't think it was visible
8 by Dutch military men, but I'm sure that he knew about
10 JUDGE RIAD: How far were these dead bodies
11 from the interrogation house?
12 A. 400 to 450 metres. That's my estimate.
13 JUDGE RIAD: And other things you mentioned,
14 for instance, the babies -- when you mentioned the
15 first night, people hanged themselves and there were
16 dead babies inside the compound. Is anybody in control
17 of this situation? Would it be possible for him to be
18 completely unaware of it?
19 A. You mean somebody belonging to DutchBat?
20 JUDGE RIAD: No. General Krstic. Somebody
21 in control.
22 A. Of course they knew about this.
23 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
25 Judge Riad.
1 I should like the witness to look again at
2 Exhibit 5/2. Here it is.
3 Witness F, you mentioned the site marked "F"
4 as the point of observation where you observed a series
5 of events which you then described to us; is that
7 A. That is absolutely correct.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you use
9 the pointer and indicate on the ELMO -- will you please
10 turn to the ELMO?
11 Perhaps, Mr. Usher, you could help the
13 Can you tell us: What was the angle at which
14 you were observing these events? Could you trace it?
15 Could you mark it with the marker? Could you use the
16 marker to show at which angle you were? Could you just
17 draw at which angle were you watching it, the visual
19 A. [Marks]
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just to get
21 our bearings right. Could you perhaps put next to
22 letter "F", "north" and "south."
23 A. [Marks]
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So now
25 north is the direction of Bratunac. Is that so? And
1 then Srebrenica to the south.
2 A. That's correct. Yes.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And for
4 west and east, we have mountains on those two sides.
5 A. That's correct.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, I
7 should like to ask you: How long were you at that
8 particular site observing, more or less? How long did
9 you observe them from that particular place?
10 A. The day before the fall, plus the night, till
11 about 11.00 on the first day. I think 15 or 16 hours.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So if I
13 understand you well, you were there on the 10th, during
14 the night between the 10th and 11th, and on the 11th
15 until about 11.00.
16 A. That's right.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you go
18 back to your observation point after 11.00 on the
19 11th of July?
20 A. Yes. This position had been prepared when
21 the situation -- when the tension was mounting, so it
22 also had to be broken down. So this was an additional
23 position on the compound.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you did
25 not come back to this observation post. You picked out
1 a different observation post; is that correct?
2 A. Indeed. I had been assigned to another
3 place, yes, and of course there was a command for me,
4 when the Serbs had already entered.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. And
6 where was this other observation post?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. Could you
8 please ask the witness to start again. I'm sorry.
9 Interpreter's mistake. Could you please ask the
10 witness to start again.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 Excuse me, Witness F. You really have to speak slowly
13 and make a pause between question and answer.
14 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness speak
15 up, please.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We need a
17 double pause because we are not in the usual situation
18 with the interpreters. With the working conditions
19 that we have now, we need twice as much time for breaks
20 so the interpreters can catch up with you. So will you
21 please begin once again? So your second observation
22 post, where was it?
23 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness speak
24 up, please.
25 A. The Muslim refugees were already present on
1 the compound, and I was assigned to take up an
2 additional position at the arrow "UN base." This was,
3 at the same time, the toilet for all the Muslim
4 refugees, so I was literally standing in you know
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My second
7 question is as follows, Witness F: Where were you when
8 you saw General Krstic?
9 A. At the moment -- at that moment, I was at the
10 main entrance to the compound, this location
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another
13 question. Where was General Krstic?
14 A. At the centre of all the happenings, around
15 the refugees, so he was in the centre between the main
16 entrance, the bus complex, and the White House, around
17 the compound.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now,
19 Witness F, I will ask you to use the pointer to show
20 the place where you saw General Krstic. And I'm going
21 to use also the transcript which the Prosecutor used --
22 I can use another letter, if we need one, in addition
23 to the letter used by the Prosecutor.
24 Can you show us on this exhibit, where were
25 you when you saw General Krstic? Where was the place
1 from which you saw General Krstic? And mark it with a
2 "G". We had an "F" on the exhibit, didn't we?
3 A. [Marks]
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very good.
5 Now, will you mark the place where General Krstic was
6 at the time, and put an "H" next to it.
7 A. [Marks]
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another
9 question, Witness F. How far away are points "H" and
11 A. Ten to fifteen metres. They just were
12 walking around together.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ten to
14 fifteen metres; is that so?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another
17 question. Were there any barriers, anything that would
18 obstruct your view, houses or trees or anything,
19 between the place where you were standing and the place
20 where General Krstic was?
21 A. There were no obstacles, no trees, no rocks.
22 There were security people, but nothing else.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So all the
24 other VRS officers whom you mentioned, General Mladic,
25 Commander Nikolic, and others, they were also there, at
1 this place around point "H", were they?
2 A. Around point "H".
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another
4 question. Why do you say that this person who is
5 sitting behind in the dock is the same person that you
6 saw from -- that you saw at point "H"?
7 A. I don't understand your question. I'm
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I see
10 that you couldn't understand because I was trying not
11 to lead you. You're saying that General Krstic, and
12 that is the person who is sitting here in the bottom of
13 this room, was on the 11th and the 12th of July -- that
14 you saw him in that place. Why is it, how, on the
15 basis of what are you concluding that this is one and
16 the same person?
17 Sorry. Did somebody tell you, "This is
18 General Krstic," or did General Krstic meet you and
19 introduce himself and say, "I'm General Krstic"? That
20 is it. Can you understand now? How did you know?
21 A. Nobody came up to me and told me that this is
22 the General, but I recognise his face. I recognise it
23 very well.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you're
25 saying that this is -- that this was General Krstic,
1 because when you arrived here to the courtroom, you
2 recognised this person as that person whom you already
3 saw on the 11th and the 12th of July at that place. Is
4 that what we can infer from your answer, Witness F?
5 A. That's correct.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
7 Tell us another thing. On the 11th of July and on the
8 12th of July, so on the two occasions that you saw
9 General Krstic, did you always see him at that same
10 place, at "H", or did you see him in different places?
11 A. Of course, he moved around, but I saw him at
12 those points. And for the rest, I was busy with my own
13 work. I didn't always pay attention to him.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, this
15 was not my last question, Witness F. I'm sorry. I
16 should like to -- if you can -- but I think that your
17 training enables you to tell us the results of your
19 With regard to what you saw concerning
20 General Krstic, what is it that you saw? Don't give us
21 your conjectures, but if possible, describe to us --
22 because you had your camera. So as in a photograph,
23 tell us, what did you observe with regard to General
24 Krstic? It is both difficult and easy.
25 A. Indeed, it's difficult to find the right
1 words to describe it. I think a mass murder of a great
2 amount of people, of many people, which were taken out
3 by military apparatus. And it was certainly
4 well-prepared, and many civilians were victims of this,
5 amongst them children, women, men, and that is to put
6 it in very soft words. The film "Schindler's List" was
7 nothing compared to that. It was really horrible. And
8 you can understand that, for me, this is a very
9 emotional affair.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness F,
11 I want to ask you now: General Krstic -- who did
12 General Krstic talk to, if he talked?
13 A. With several officers. I apologise for being
14 so emotional, but after five years, things are
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That is
17 quite natural, Witness F. It is human to
18 have emotions, and we understand how you feel and we
19 respect that too. But if you answer my question, I
20 will try to ask short questions, and you can answer
21 them directly. If you want a break, then we can make a
22 break. Shall we continue? Very well. Thank you.
23 So were there some individuals who came and
24 went to General Krstic?
25 A. Yes. I think they were mainly officers, and
1 I didn't observe it for the rest. I was busy with
2 other things, unfortunately.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And did
4 General Krstic use some means of communication; that
5 is, a radio, walkie-talkie, or something else that he
7 A. I didn't observe it directly.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] From what
9 you saw, were there some individuals who looked as if
10 they were asking questions of General Krstic or
11 supplying him with some information?
12 A. Yes, indeed. There was some consultation
13 going on around the generals and the officers.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When
15 General Krstic moved from the place where he spent most
16 of the time, that is, point "H", and when he moved away
17 from there, did you have an opportunity to see what he
18 was going to do?
19 A. Mainly he walked around and looked whether
20 everything was going according to plan, but I didn't
21 see what he did exactly.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right. I
23 believe you have provided us with a great deal of
24 information. I think that Judge Riad has yet another
1 Judge Riad.
2 JUDGE RIAD: Witness F, I'm not going to
3 prolong your discomfort much longer, but to the best of
4 your knowledge, and this is a question of general
5 assessment and if you remember: Was General Krstic
6 present all the time in all the events during these two
7 days, or was he -- because you mentioned that he was
8 there when they were distributing sweets to the
9 children in front of the camera, and he was there to
10 meet important people -- but apart from that, you never
11 referred to him. You would say that General Krstic
12 wanted to enter the compound to see how many refugees
13 were hiding. It was Krstic that was entering, not
14 Mladic. And in other cases, he was looking whether
15 everything was according to plan. You referred to
16 Krstic as if he was in control and there was no
17 Mladic. Was Mladic not there anymore?
18 A. I didn't see him anymore. I think he was one
19 of the responsibles in assigning duties to the
21 JUDGE RIAD: So it appeared to you that it
22 was Krstic who was in charge in the execution, and he
23 had the control?
24 A. Yes, I think he was one of the big officers
25 who were in charge, yes, who had been assigned this
2 JUDGE RIAD: Was it apparent that there was
3 somebody higher than him, someone who Mladic considered
4 higher in hierarchy?
5 A. Yes. That's right.
6 JUDGE RIAD: No. My question is: Was there
7 someone higher than Krstic in hierarchy, between Mladic
9 A. Not at that moment at that point and in that
10 place, but I think there was some evaluation going on
11 with the chief of staff in higher levels.
12 JUDGE RIAD: But not at this level, not on
13 the ground.
14 A. Not directly there.
15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
17 Judge Riad.
18 Witness F, only a point of clarification.
19 Exhibit 5/2, on which you marked the angles at which
20 you observed, and for the record, can one say that
21 basically your angle of observation was towards west or
22 north, to the east, but not to the south? Yes?
23 A. That's right. My view towards the south was
24 blocked by the high tower on the compound. I could
25 look over the roof of the compound till the high tower
1 and the beginning of the compound.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I
3 see. In any event, I believe the exhibit and the
4 record show quite clearly that your field of visibility
5 went in three directions, except for the south.
6 Very well, Witness F. You have finished your
7 testimony. You testified for a long time here. You
8 lived through these events. The Prosecution, the
9 Defence, and the Bench and the Chamber asked you a
10 number of questions. But is there something that you
11 would like to say and yet have had no opportunity to
12 say before in answering questions? If there is
13 anything of that kind, you can do so now.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very
15 much. Again, for me, after five years, this is the
16 first time I can talk about these photographs. Hardly
17 anybody knew about it. I'm very grateful to you for
18 listening to my story, and I think this is a very good
19 thing for history and for human rights. Thank you very
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I also
22 hope, we all hope, Witness F, that it will also be good
23 for you and for your peace of mind, having been able to
24 say all those things, to recount all those things that
25 you have kept to yourself for such a long time. We
1 thank you very much for coming here. Somebody will
2 help you leave the courtroom.
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Before you
4 release the witness, I am referring to 5/2A, as marked
5 by the witness, 5/3A, 59, 60, 61, 62, and 63 are all
6 Prosecution Exhibits.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
8 Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We would
10 tender those into evidence.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
12 Mr. Petrusic, any objection?
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No,
14 Mr. President.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] These
16 exhibits were tendered and admitted. Mr. Dubuisson,
17 you will take care of all the bureaucratic measures
18 that are needed.
19 Witness F, thank you. I should also like to
20 thank the interpreters who were with us.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
23 before the break, what do we have next?
24 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President,
25 Your Honours; good morning, counsel.
1 We have two witnesses remaining for the day.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In open
3 session or do we need any protection measures?
4 MR. HARMON: Yes. That's correct. Both
5 witnesses will need protection measures. The first
6 will be in public session with face distortion and a
7 pseudonym; the second, we are requesting a closed
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
10 Mr. Petrusic, do you have any objection as to the
11 application of protective measures? We know that in
12 principle you do not object to protective measures, but
13 it has to be made clear for the record.
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes,
15 Mr. President. Before we began this morning, we didn't
16 have an opportunity to consult, so I do not know the
17 order of witnesses. So this should be perhaps left for
18 after the break. We should be made familiar with the
19 order of witnesses, because we do not know which
20 particular witness is requesting what protective
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
23 can you respond to that?
24 MR. HARMON: I was under the impression that
25 we did provide the order of witnesses, but if it's
1 unclear, I'm happy to do so again over the break.
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but as
3 far as we understood you yesterday, there may have been
4 some changes that occurred in the meantime.
5 Mr. Harmon, is the order, therefore, the same
6 as yesterday?
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think
8 that Mr. Harmon has suggested that you can solve the
9 issue during the break. However, let me remind you of
10 one thing that is quite important for our work, that
11 is, how we should proceed, because during the break we
12 can undertake all the necessary measures for the next
13 witness. So Mr. Harmon said that he could tell you
14 everything about the next witness during the break.
15 Mr. Dubuisson, I hope that all the measures
16 will be taken so that we can start right away with the
17 witness once we come back from the break, and I hope
18 that protective measures will be applied.
19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. Very
20 well, Mr. President. We will be sitting in public
21 session for the next witness.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] A 20-minute
24 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
2 afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me? Could you please
3 now read the solemn declaration.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
5 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
6 and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: BEGO ADEMOVIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be
10 seated now.
11 Are you comfortable, sir?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I hope you
14 have been well treated here in The Hague.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excellent.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We shall
17 try to do the same. Witness, I should like to thank
18 you first for coming here, and let me just explain to
19 you that you will first be answering questions put to
20 you by Mr. Harmon, who is representing the Prosecution,
21 as soon as we have made sure that everything is in
22 order and that we can communicate properly.
23 I can see that Mr. Harmon is satisfied that
24 everything is okay. Mr. Harmon, you have the floor.
25 MR. HARMON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President,
1 Judge Riad.
2 Examined by Mr. Harmon:
3 Q. Sir, could you state your name?
4 A. Ademovic, Bego.
5 Q. How do you spell your last name?
6 A. A-d-e-m-o-v-i-c, "Bego" being my first name.
7 Q. How old are you, sir?
8 A. I'm 58.
9 MR. HARMON: I didn't get a translation in
10 the English.
11 A. Fifty-eight.
12 MR. HARMON:
13 Q. Could you tell us; are you a Muslim by faith,
14 Mr. Ademovic?
15 A. Yes, I am.
16 Q. And can you tell us about your education?
17 How far did you go in school?
18 A. I have the first four forms of the elementary
19 school, and I'm a driver by profession.
20 Q. Do you have some difficulty in reading?
21 A. Well, I can't read very well.
22 Q. Now, you said that you were a driver by
23 profession. How many years were you --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- how many years were you a driver?
1 A. Thirty.
2 Q. And what kind of vehicles did you drive?
3 A. All kinds of transport vehicles and buses.
4 Q. And where are were you employed as a driver?
5 A. I worked at the Vihor Company and the
6 Partizanski Put Company in Belgrade.
7 Q. And where is the Vihor Company located?
8 A. In Bratunac.
9 Q. And how long were you employed as a driver in
11 A. I worked there for less than a year. I mean,
12 I worked less than a year in the Partizanski Put
14 Q. And, therefore, did you work for a number of
15 years in Bratunac as a driver?
16 A. Well, yes. I retired as a driver.
17 Q. Now, before the war started, where did you
19 A. In the village of Dzile, the municipality of
21 Q. Now, are you married?
22 A. Yes, and I'm a father of four children.
23 Q. Now, I'd like to draw your attention to the
24 events that took place before the fall of the
25 Srebrenica enclave, and let me ask you; before the fall
1 of the enclave, were you living in the village of
3 A. Yes, I was.
4 Q. Where is that in relation to the town of
6 A. It is situated in the direction of the Radava
7 Mountain, in the vicinity of Srebrenica.
8 Q. And how far away is it from the town of
9 Srebrenica, that particular village?
10 A. About ten kilometres, I couldn't be more
11 precise. Maybe less than ten kilometres.
12 Q. When you were living in that village, with
13 whom were you living?
14 A. With my mother, with my uncle, my wife, my
15 two sons, my two daughters-in-law, and my four
17 Q. Now, at some point in time, Mr. Ademovic, did
18 the Bosnian Serb army come into the enclave and did you
19 leave that village?
20 A. I'm sorry. I don't understand your
22 Q. At some point in time, did you flee from the
23 village of Kutezero?
24 A. I was living in Dzile, and then I fled Dzile
25 after the fall of the Srebrenica municipality, and then
1 I reached Kutezero. If you're asking me about the fall
2 of Srebrenica, well, yes, at that time, I fled from
4 Q. And with whom did you flee the village?
5 A. I fled with my daughters-in-law, and with my
6 mother, and my uncle had died before the fall of
7 Srebrenica, and our grandchildren were with us as
9 Q. And why did you flee?
10 A. Well, I fled from Chetniks. I didn't want to
11 be slaughtered by them.
12 Q. Where did you go?
13 A. We went to Potocari.
14 Q. Now, did all of you who had fled from your
15 village arrive in Potocari?
16 A. I don't know about that.
17 Q. Did your mother arrive in Potocari?
18 A. My mother couldn't walk, so she couldn't
19 continue, and she remained in the woods, and that's
20 where she died.
21 Q. Now, let me ask you; do you remember the day
22 when you arrived in Potocari?
23 A. It was on a Tuesday, on the 11th.
24 Q. Was that the 11th of July, 1995?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And where did you and your wife and other
2 members of your family take refuge?
3 A. At the Zinc Factory in Potocari. There were
4 lots of people there.
5 Q. Now, when you arrived in the Zinc Factory,
6 was there any shooting going on in and around the Zinc
8 A. There was some shelling and some gunfire.
9 People got injured by shells, fragments of shells.
10 There may have been casualties or fatalities, but I'm
11 not sure.
12 Q. Okay. And when you arrived in Potocari on
13 the 11th of July, were there other refugees in and
14 around the Zinc Factory?
15 A. Yes. Yes, a lot of people, a crowd of
17 Q. Are you able to estimate how many people
18 there were?
19 A. Over 2.000 or 3.000, probably more than
21 Q. Did you and your wife and family members take
22 refuge inside the Zinc Factory or outside on the
23 grounds around the Zinc Factory?
24 A. Around the Zinc Factory, coming from the
25 direction of Bratunac.
1 Q. Now, at some point in time, did members of
2 the Bosnian Serb army arrive in Potocari?
3 A. No, they didn't.
4 Q. When did members of the Bosnian Serb army
5 arrive in Potocari?
6 A. On the following day, after 10.00, on
8 Q. So that would be the 12th of July; is that
10 A. Yes, the 12th of July.
11 Q. Now, could you see in which direction the
12 Bosnian Serb soldiers were coming?
13 A. We were first told to clear the asphalt area,
14 that soldiers would be coming from the direction of
15 Srebrenica, and they came in in a column of two, and
16 then they continued towards Bratunac. And then
17 Chetniks started arriving from all directions.
18 Q. Now, did you recognise any members of the
19 Bosnian Serb army who had come in to Potocari?
20 A. I recognised only a colleague of mine from
21 Vihor, Lazic. He worked there as a bus driver, and he
22 was working in the reserve section.
23 Q. When you say "the reserve section," do you
24 mean the reserve section of the bus company or the
25 reserve section of the army?
1 A. Of the former Yugoslavia, Tito's Yugoslavia.
2 Q. And when you say "reserve section," what are
3 you referring to?
4 A. Oh, he was wearing clothes, this particular
6 Q. Can you describe the particular suit he was
8 A. It was grey in colour. It was a warm kind of
10 Q. Okay. Did you see anybody else?
11 A. I couldn't recognise anyone else. I didn't
12 recognise anyone in the column.
13 Q. Did you, later on, notice any Bosnian Serb
14 soldiers you knew by name who may not have walked in in
15 the column but may have been walking amongst the
17 A. There was a huge crowd of people, and I knew
18 only knew Zoran Mirosavljevic.
19 Q. How was he dressed?
20 A. He was wearing a camouflage suit.
21 Q. Now, let me ask you to focus your attention
22 on that day again, the 12th of July, and ask you if you
23 saw a conversation taking place between a Bosnian Serb
24 soldier and a family of Bosnian Muslims. Did you see a
25 conversation taking place, and could you describe to
1 the Judges what you saw and what you heard?
2 A. Yes. There were lots of Chetniks walking
3 around, quite a few people were sitting next to me.
4 There was one man, together with his wife and their two
5 children, son and daughter. Two soldiers approached
6 them. They said hello to the man and the girl, and
7 they inquired about their health. And they said to the
8 man, "Let us take your wife and your daughter so that
9 they can be put on the first buses," and the man said,
10 "No. We're not going to separate." But they grabbed
11 the girl and they took her away from him. The wife
12 fainted, and the man was motionless. He was simply
13 watching this thing happen. And the girl was taken
14 away in the direction of Srebrenica, from the Zinc
16 Q. Do you know what happened to that girl?
17 A. No, I don't know.
18 Q. Can you tell the Judges how those soldiers
19 were dressed?
20 A. They were wearing camouflage suits.
21 Q. What colour was the camouflage?
22 A. It was multi-coloured.
23 Q. Was there any particular dominant colour, any
24 particular ...
25 A. It wasn't very visible. I'm not a specialist
1 for colours. It was difficult to tell.
2 Q. Okay. Do you know the kind of camouflage
3 uniforms worn by the army and the kind of camouflage
4 uniforms worn by the police? Do you know the
5 difference between those two?
6 A. No. I cannot tell the difference.
7 Q. Did you know the names of those particular
8 soldiers who took away the girl?
9 A. No. I don't know them at all.
10 Q. Now, while you were in the Zinc compound
11 area, did you see other Serb soldiers walking among the
13 A. I didn't see them do anything. They were
14 just cursing at people, calling them names, telling
15 them that they would be slaughtered, that they would
16 end out their lives there. They were telling them to
17 leave the area, that it was a Serb country, that it was
18 part of the Greater Serbia.
19 Q. Now, how were the soldiers who were making
20 those curses, do you remember how they were dressed?
21 A. The same. The same kind of suit.
22 Q. Camouflage suits; is that correct?
23 A. Camouflage.
24 Q. Could you see any particular marks or badges
25 or patches on those soldiers?
1 A. I could only see them on Zoran Mirosavljevic,
2 but those who were cursing did not wear any insignia.
3 Only Zoran had some kind of badge on his arm.
4 Q. Do you remember what kind of badge Zoran had
5 on his arm? Could you describe it?
6 A. I cannot describe it. I only saw that he had
7 some kind of insignia, but I wasn't paying attention to
9 Q. Mr. Ademovic, at some point in time when you
10 were walking in and around the Zinc Factory, did you
11 see a violent incident involving a child?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Can you tell the Judges what you saw?
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. Please, tell the Judges what you saw.
16 A. After they'd taken away the girl, the
17 situation was a bit calmer. I walked around the Zinc
18 Factory -- I wanted to get to my wife and my
19 daughter-in-law -- and I went by a soldier where there
20 was many people. There was a woman carrying a child in
21 her arms, and the soldier asked her whether the baby's
22 name was Alija. She said it wasn't. Then he inquired
23 whether it was a boy, and the woman said yes. Then he
24 bent down, took a knife out, he took the baby and hit
25 the baby with a knife here, like this. I turned around
1 and the baby fell down. It was dead.
2 Q. When you say "he hit the baby here," where
3 did he strike the baby with the knife?
4 A. Here [indicates], in the chest. Under the
5 head, near the neck.
6 Q. What happened then?
7 A. I went back. I didn't know what happened
8 then. I only learned that the child was dead. But I
9 fled in the opposite direction.
10 Q. Now, can you tell the Judges how that soldier
11 was dressed?
12 A. He had the same kind of suit as others were
14 Q. That is a camouflage suit.
15 A. Yes, camouflage.
16 Q. At the time that that baby was murdered, were
17 there other refugees in and around that crime scene?
18 A. Yes. You couldn't move through them. They
19 were standing next to each other.
20 Q. What was the reaction of the people who saw
21 this killing of this child?
22 A. There wasn't much reaction. After that, it
23 was as if things were normal.
24 Q. Okay. And later on in the day -- let me ask
25 you this question, Mr. Ademovic: About what time of
1 the day did that happen, if you can remember?
2 A. I didn't have a watch, but I think that it
3 could have been around 12.00.
4 Q. Now, did you, that day, attempt to go get
5 some water for your family?
6 A. Yes, I did. I went up the hill, in the
7 direction of Srebrenica, and wanted to take some
8 water. I also wanted to get some food. I wanted to
9 find something to cook for my children. And then I was
10 stopped by a soldier. And this took place before
11 10.00. There were Serb troops over there, and there
12 was a kind of ribbon which prevented us from moving
13 on. So I turned around and went back.
14 Q. Where did you go?
15 A. I went outside the compound of the Zinc
17 Q. And where outside the compound of the Zinc
18 Factory did you go?
19 A. Outside the Zinc Factory. I mean, up the
20 hill, towards a barn. There were a lot of people
21 there. The situation was somewhat calmer at that point
22 in time, and people were moving around. They went up
23 to a meadow, and they were drinking and eating, but
24 they were mostly silent.
25 Q. Were you with anybody?
1 A. I was with Dzemal Karic. There were a lot of
2 people around us, but the two of us stuck together.
3 Q. At some point in time, did a Serb soldier
5 A. Yes, they appeared from behind. We spent
6 some time sitting there, and at one point somebody said
7 that Serb soldiers were coming. And people fled to the
8 Zinc Factory. And the two of us, we went to a barn and
9 we hid there. And we didn't follow the people who went
10 towards the Zinc Factory, and they didn't see us.
11 Q. So you were hidden in a barn or near a barn,
12 on a hillside, overlooking the Zinc Factory; is that
14 A. There was a shed below the stable, and we hid
15 behind that shed.
16 Q. What did you see when you hid behind that
18 A. Two Serb soldiers followed the people, and
19 they went in through a hole of the Zinc Factory fence.
20 They took three Bosniak men from that -- through that
21 hole, and they moved in the direction of Aljo's house.
22 We saw them, and we were actually watching in their
23 direction. There were between 10 and 15 people there,
24 between the Zinc Factory and Aljo's house. There was a
25 kind of ramp that had been prepared there, and they
1 moved the people towards that location. There were two
2 Chetniks and some other soldiers as well, and they were
3 taking people -- taking men by their arms. They would
4 hold them by an arm behind their back. The third one
5 would grab the person by the hair. They would turn in
6 the direction of the Zinc Factory and they would kill
7 those men by -- with a kind of machete, decapitating
9 Q. How many people were involved in this killing
11 A. I couldn't exactly tell. They all looked the
12 same. They were wearing the same kind of clothing,
13 they were more or less of the same age. There were
14 between eight and ten of them. I don't know if this
15 was done always by the same person, or rather the same
16 persons, but they were there, lined up. And I couldn't
17 tell you anything more precise.
18 Q. Do you recall what the men who were doing the
19 killings were wearing?
20 A. This same kind of clothing; the one that was
21 worn by other soldiers.
22 Q. Camouflage clothing?
23 A. Yes, camouflage clothing.
24 Q. Now, after you witnessed these first three
25 men being killed, tell the Judges what happened.
1 A. The two soldiers went back, and they were
2 bringing in other Bosniak men. And then a truck
3 arrived, coming from the cornfield. And when the truck
4 was filled with dead bodies, they had some kind of
5 camouflage bags, they ordered some Muslims to fill up
6 those camouflage bags, which were then put onto a
7 truck. And they kept working like this for a while.
8 Q. Did the truck with the bodies leave the area?
9 A. Yes, on several occasions, and it would come
11 Q. And after the truck left the area, what
13 A. The truck would leave the area, and then it
14 would come back again. The last time it came, it was
15 already at dusk.
16 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Ademovic, how long was it
17 that you watched killings take place from your location
18 near the shed?
19 A. It must have been, I'm not too sure, but it
20 must have been two hours. More. More.
21 Q. Now, during this period of time, did you or
22 your colleague, Mr. Karic, keep a count of how many
23 people you had seen murdered?
24 A. Dzemal Karic had a box of cigarettes, Drina,
25 from a Sarajevo factory, and he had a short pencil.
1 And as they were taking them away, he was writing four,
2 then five, then seven, and on. And then he added it
3 up, and we got the figure of 83. But the pencil
4 broke. Anyway, it was a stub only, so that it couldn't
5 write any longer, and they were still taking people
7 Q. Are you able to estimate the number of people
8 you saw killed in the fashion which you've described?
9 A. What he added up was the correct sum, 83, but
10 they continued taking people away, and then we could
11 not write anymore. But there must have been over 100.
12 Q. Now, please continue describing what occurred
13 at that location.
14 A. Night had already fallen, but it wasn't quite
15 dark yet. I knew those people from sight. I didn't
16 know their names. And the last batch, in it I
17 recognised Hazim Lonjinac in that last group of five
18 men. And then all of a sudden noise started, and those
19 people came back alive, that group of five men. And
20 they left. And we entered the Zinc Factory. And I
21 found Hazim Lonjinac, who had been with that group,
22 with a child in his arms. He's some kind of a
23 son-in-law of mine. And I told him, "Son-in-law, I've
24 already mourned you." And he said that an officer had
25 come and attacked those Chetniks, and he gave me his
1 name. And he said, "I was the one who got you away.
2 Get down to the Zinc Factory." But I've forgotten the
3 name. He gave me both the first and last name of that
4 officer, but I've forgotten.
5 Q. What happened to the assassins?
6 A. They stayed there -- well, they left later
7 on. As soon as they stopped killing, they just
9 Q. Now, you mentioned the name of an individual
10 who may be related to you by marriage, Hazim Lonjinac.
11 And that's the man who you have identified as --
12 A. Yes, my niece -- he's my son-in-law. My
13 niece is married to him.
14 Q. Do you know what happened to Hazim Lonjinac?
15 A. Don't I? My daughter-in-law told me, the
16 wife of my son who was killed. My two daughters-in-law
17 and my wife went towards Kladanj that night. And my
18 daughter-in-law told me that she had got off the bus at
19 some point, and several men were standing in a group
20 next to a stone boundary. And when the headlights went
21 on, then she recognised Hazim in that group.
22 Q. Do you know the location where Hazim was
23 standing in that group?
24 A. I didn't see it myself, but from what my
25 daughter-in-law told me, next to the asphalt, up the
1 slope, next to the boundary, next to the bank.
2 Q. Was there a name for that location?
3 A. Luke. Some people call it Luke. I've heard
4 people call it Luke.
5 Q. Now, let me return to the time when you came
6 down from the hill and after you saw Hazim. Did you
7 find your wife and your other family members in and
8 around the Zinc Factory?
9 A. No. And I never saw them again, until I
10 arrived in Kladanj. And they had left that night.
11 Q. Mr. Ademovic, I'd like you to describe, if
12 you would, to the Judges the night between the 12th and
13 the morning of the 13th. Can you describe the scene as
14 you saw it?
15 A. In the Zinc Factory compound -- nobody spent
16 the night there, but across the asphalt, in the
17 transport compound. And I was in the middle. All the
18 people were around me. There was moonlight, and the
19 visibility was better than now. And from all sides
20 Chetniks were coming, carrying torches with them,
21 flashlights. And people lying down were tired. They
22 would pull the people up by the hair and look at their
23 face. If they would like the face, they would take him
24 away. If they didn't recognise him, they would leave
25 him behind. But they mostly took them away. And
1 people were screaming, people were distressed. It was
3 Q. Now, when you say, "The Chetniks were
4 coming," can you be more precise? Who were the
5 Chetniks? How were they dressed?
6 A. Chetniks. That was no army. Those are
7 criminals. They are called the Bosnian Serb army, but
8 that's a crime. They are beasts. They are not
9 humans. A man, a human being, has a soul, and those
10 people didn't have anything. Heavy crimes. What
12 Q. How were those individuals who came in in the
13 night with those flashlights, how were they dressed?
14 Do you remember?
15 A. All military. I could have seen two or three
16 in civilian clothes.
17 Q. Mr. Ademovic, let me now turn to the morning
18 of the 13th of July and focus your attention on the
19 early morning hours. What did you do first thing in
20 the morning of the 13th of July?
21 A. I didn't sleep, nor did anybody else. The
22 dawn broke and our heads hurt to a bursting point.
23 Down there, there was the River Krizevica, and I
24 started down to wash myself. There was no Chetniks
25 around. And above me was a woman screaming like crazy,
1 "What's happened?" They took away two of her
2 daughters that night. I started towards the Krizevica,
3 the stream. I washed my face, came back. I saw a man
4 on his knees moving. This is cut [indicating], both
5 his hands, around his ankles, also both feet, his nose
6 cut off, his ears cut off, his eyes gouged out. He is
7 moving on his knees and only moaning "Oh." He was
8 hanging like that. I didn't come near him.
9 Another one was hanging. I'm sorry. I
10 didn't come near him.
11 Q. You saw two individuals, one of whom was
12 mutilated and a second man who was hanging. Did I
13 understand your testimony correctly?
14 A. Yes, that's right. You understood me.
15 Q. What did you do after you saw those two
17 A. I saw buses and I headed there straight
18 away. I reached the rope, and they had separated --
19 many of us continued separating, so I reached the
20 rope. It was tight there, but I bent down and passed
21 under the rope, and nobody said anything. So I reached
22 the bus, and its driver was an acquaintance of mine
23 before the war, a fellow driver. So I sat next to him
24 and headed for Kladanj.
25 Q. Let me interrupt you there for just a
1 second. I omitted to show you three exhibits.
2 MR. HARMON: And I'd like the usher to put
3 these on the ELMO, Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/10, 5/13 and
5 Q. These relate to the killings that you
6 described earlier.
7 MR. HARMON: Which exhibit is that, please?
8 THE USHER: 5/10.
9 MR. HARMON:
10 Q. Do you recognise Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/10?
11 A. I do. Where shall I show it? Here, this is
12 Aljo's house [indicates]. This is also Aljo's house.
13 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, let him use the
15 Q. Would you please point to Aljo's house, and
16 then I'll describe it to the Judges.
17 A. This is Aljo's house [indicates].
18 MR. HARMON: For the record, the witness has
19 put the pointer on the house that is directly in the
20 middle of the exhibit.
21 Q. Would you go to Exhibit 5/10, please. I'm
22 sorry, 5/13. Do you recognise that photograph?
23 A. This is the stable. This is the shed where I
24 was, from where I watched. Down here [indicates], down
25 there, there should have been the Zinc Factory, but
1 it's not here. Aljo's house is over there. That's
2 where it should be. Between the Zinc Factory and the
3 house, there was to be some wheat or some corn, and
4 that's where the slaughter took place.
5 MR. HARMON: Just for the record, the witness
6 indicated with his pointer --
7 Q. -- and would you point again where you were
8 hidden when observed these events took, please?
9 Just put the pointer on the ELMO where you were hidden?
10 A. Here [indicates].
11 MR. HARMON: The witness has put his pointer
12 on the left-hand side of this structure. There appears
13 to be some perpendicular wooden slats at the left side
14 of that building, and that's where he said he was.
15 Q. Is that also the location where Mr. Karic
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, could you place
19 Prosecutor's 5/11 on the ELMO.
20 Q. Do you recognise anything in that particular
22 A. Here's the fence through which the Chetniks
23 were taking away the Bosniaks, through this wire fence
24 [indicates]. And this is Aljo's house. And that's
25 where they took them through, and there should be the
1 stable, but it's not here. I can't see it.
2 MR. HARMON: Now let me, for the record --
3 the witness, when he was talking about the fence, he
4 was pointing to a fence that is on the -- more to the
5 right side than to the left side. It appears to have a
6 hole in it. And when he pointed and referred to Aljo's
7 house, he was referring to the house, the roof of which
8 is on the left-hand side. It's the tallest structure
9 in the photograph.
10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ademovic. You can
11 turn around and we can continue with your testimony.
12 A. Thank you.
13 Q. Before we get, Mr. Ademovic, to your actually
14 leaving the enclave on a bus, let me ask you, did
15 anybody, prior to your getting on a bus, come to you
16 and give you a choice, as to whether you could stay in
17 Srebrenica and Potocari, or whether you could go to any
18 particular location you wanted?
19 A. No way. All them, they were shouting at us,
20 cursing us, cursing Aljo, saying, "Why didn't you go
21 with Fikret? Perhaps you would have survived." Here,
22 nobody -- no, we were all leaving, getting away from
24 Q. Now, let me ask you, please, tell me where
25 you went. You said you got on a bus. Tell the Judges
1 what happened when you got on the bus and who you
3 A. I only recognised the fellow driver, that
4 one, and all those people there, I wasn't really
5 looking. Perhaps I knew somebody, but I can't
6 remember. I only remember the driver, Raco
8 Q. And he was a colleague of yours, or a former
9 colleague; is that correct?
10 A. It is.
11 Q. He was a Serb.
12 A. He was.
13 Q. Tell me what happened.
14 A. Where?
15 Q. Once you got on the bus.
16 A. I got onto the bus, I sat somewhere in the
17 middle of the bus, and when the bus was full, he set
18 off. When we passed by Bratunac, he called me to sit
19 next to him and I sat next to him. He offered me a
20 cigarette and said, "Well, how about you? Are your
21 sons alive?" I said, "I don't know." "Where did you
22 go?" And I said, "Through the woods." And he said
23 "Not good. There was some bad fighting with our army
24 and there was also some fighting between your troops.
25 Lots of people died. I hope somebody is still alive.
1 We were to take you tonight," Wednesday night, that is,
2 "and I started and I was brought back from the petrol
3 station at Zivinice, and I saw our troops moving to
4 meet your troops to an ambush, so that I didn't drive
5 last night, nobody drove last night."
6 When we got to Sandici, Pantic called
7 Milici -- militia men stopped us. Before the war, he
8 was a policeman. And that man was lying there on the
9 asphalt next to him, and there were about 20 through
10 Sandici, 20 men in civilian clothes with their hands
11 like that. Pantic shook hands with me and said, "Hi.
12 I looked for you yesterday in Potocari. I was bringing
13 you some Slivovitz, some brandy, but I couldn't find
14 you. And now I don't have it with me. Go and sit in
15 the back. Don't sit here. Raco, get those two lads,
16 they're Muslims. They arrived through the woods. They
17 were good to us." And we went on.
18 Q. Let me ask you some questions to clarify your
19 testimony. Who was Pantic? Was he a Serb?
20 A. A Serb.
21 Q. Did you know him -- you knew him from before
22 the war; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, we knew each other well before the war.
24 Q. And you said that you saw 20 people. How
25 were their hands? Could you show the Judges --
1 A. Around 20, around 20.
2 Q. Could you tell the Judges how they were
3 positioned and what position their hands were in?
4 A. They were all in civilian clothes, and they
5 their hands like this [indicates]. Nobody was driving
6 them down. They were coming down the hill by
7 themselves, down to where Pantic is.
8 MR. HARMON: And when the witness said "like
9 this," he put both his hands together behind the back
10 of his head, so the record is perfectly clear.
11 Q. Now, did Pantic put some people on the bus?
12 A. Two young boys, some 12 or 13 years old.
13 Q. Do you know why he put those young lads on
14 the bus?
15 A. I know nothing. I don't know the reason.
16 Q. Did the bus then drive away from Sandici?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In which direction did it drive?
19 A. Towards Konjevic Polje, Milici, Nova Kasaba,
21 Q. Did you see anything unusual on the way to
22 Konjevic Polje?
23 A. I did. Before Kaldrmica, to our right, there
24 were about two or three buses standing, and to the
25 left, there were the Chetnik troops, so that Raco
1 couldn't get through, and he stopped. And he turned
2 his hand, and with his coat, he covered my head behind
3 his back. And two soldiers approached Raco. Raco
4 opened the door, "We want to see if there is anything
5 for us," and he said, "There's nothing for you," and
6 they turned back, that is, they didn't get onto the
8 Q. What happened then?
9 A. And I watched from the buses how they were
10 taking off men, and there were some women. And the
11 buses started, and Raco started towards the playground,
12 near Nova Kasaba. Around 1.000 Muslim Bosniaks were
13 walking in a column, with their hands like this
14 [indicates]. And Chetnici escorting them with rifles.
15 Raco was driving very slowly and said, "Bego, do you
16 recognise anyone?" And I said, "I don't, not one,"
17 because I saw them from their back.
18 So he stopped in Nova Kasaba, he honked, and
19 a shop owner came out and Raco asked for a litre of
20 brandy. And the grocer brought it to him, and he paid
21 him, and he just dropped it in front of him and went on
22 driving. And when we reached Luke --
23 Q. Let me interrupt you right there because I
24 need to clarify a couple points in your testimony.
25 You said you saw about 1.000 men. Could you
1 tell if these men were Muslim men or if they were
2 Bosnian Serbs?
3 A. Muslims, and Bosnian Serbs were driving
5 Q. And in which direction were they going? I'm
6 afraid I missed that part of your testimony. Were they
7 going in a particular direction, to a particular
9 A. Towards Kasaba, before the playground.
10 That's what I saw. Towards Kasaba.
11 Q. When you say "playground," what kind of a
12 playground is it?
13 A. Football, a football stadium.
14 MR. HARMON: Again, for the record, when this
15 witness indicated that the men had their hands, again,
16 in a particular position, he made a gesture for the
17 Court to see, which was both hands behind the back of
18 the head.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Ademovic, where did you stop that
20 bus journey?
21 A. At Luke.
22 Q. What happened there?
23 A. The troops there surrounded the bus, and Raco
24 got out that brandy from the glove compartment and two
25 big tins and said, "Bego, give it to that woman, to put
1 it in her bag, and when you cross over there, have a
2 drink. Had I known that I'd come across you, I would
3 have brought some marks for you. I've got lots of
4 Serbian money, but you can't use it over there." And I
5 said, "Well, shall I cross alive?" And he said, "You
6 will." And he opened the door, took me by my left
7 shoulder and said -- he called the radio and said,
8 "Vojvoda, call them on the radio and tell not to leave
9 this one alone, he is our fellow driver," and the other
10 one replied, "Nobody will touch Bego." And that's how
11 I continued my journey.
12 Q. At some point in time, did you help a woman,
13 as well?
14 A. When I was leaving that bus, those troops,
15 they shouted at me to come back asking, "Would I mind
16 taking along a woman who had suffered a stroke?" and I
17 said "Sure." So I did.
18 Q. Mr. Ademovic, while you were at Luke, did you
19 see anything happen to a young girl?
20 A. I did. I saw a Chetnik dragging her back.
21 She had torn all her clothes. She could have been 18,
22 19, and she was screaming, "Uncle Bego, help me. Don't
23 let them do it." But I kept silent, I wasn't saying
24 anything, and he dragged her behind.
25 Q. Did you know that young girl?
1 A. I didn't. She knew me. I didn't know her.
2 Q. Now, as you made your way toward the free
3 territory, did you see any Bosnian Serb soldiers you
5 A. Two were sitting to the right of the road,
6 and he said, "Bego, take his wife, she has suffered a
7 stroke," and I've shared lots of meals with them in
8 their house, so all right. So they said, "Bego, come
9 sit down. Have some water. You'll faint." So I sat
10 down, he gave me a box of cigarettes, and I had a brief
11 rest, and that's how I went on my journey.
12 Q. Do you know the name or nickname of that
13 particular soldier?
14 A. I don't know his name. He used to work for
15 the bauxite. That's what they called him.
16 Q. Sorry. I didn't hear what they called him.
17 What did they call him?
18 A. Lega. That was his nickname or perhaps his
19 last name. I don't know.
20 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ademovic. I've
21 concluded my examination. My colleagues will ask you
22 some questions.
23 A. Thank you.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
25 Mr. Petrusic, how long will you need for your
1 cross-examination, more or less?
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
3 it will be Mr. Visnjic who will cross-examine the
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 So I'm asking the same question of Mr. Visnjic. How
7 long will you take? I'm asking because of the break.
8 Should we make the break now or not?
9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
10 I was about to suggest a break because we have to
11 resolve some technical matters with the technical
12 booth, so as to get ready for it, and I should like to
13 suggest a break.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 We shall now make a 15-minute break, then.
16 --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
19 Mr. Ademovic, we are now going to continue with your
20 evidence. Let me just remind you that you have to
21 speak slowly because we have interpreters here who are
22 interpreting what you say, and you have to speak
23 slowly. I hope Mr. Visnjic will do the same. And
24 we'll also show you how to do it, how to speak slowly.
25 Mr. Visnjic, you have the floor.
1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
2 Mr. President.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic:
4 Q. Mr. Ademovic, I know it is hard for you to be
5 reminded of these events, but unfortunately we have to
6 ask you a few details, we have to ask you to explain
7 the events that took place in July 1995 in somewhat
8 greater detail.
9 Mr. Ademovic, could you please explain to the
10 Chamber whether you have given any statement about
11 these events on any previous occasion?
12 A. Yes, I have.
13 Q. How many?
14 A. I don't know how many statements I gave to
15 the Tribunal, but I remember giving a statement to the
16 authorities in Tuzla on one occasion.
17 Q. Mr. Ademovic, the usher will now show you
18 Exhibit 6. Exhibit 6 is your statement of the 18th of
19 August, 1995, the statement that you gave to the State
20 Security Service in Tuzla.
21 A. Yes. Yes, I can tell you all about it. I
22 don't have to read it. I'll tell you how it happened.
23 I was called in Tuzla, they told me to come to an
24 office, which was a small office, a small room. There
25 were four of us, three men and one woman. The
1 investigators were not serious at all. They were not
2 serious. So they were flirting with the lady, they
3 were not listening to what I was saying. And at the
4 moment I had to put my signature on the statement, he
5 didn't bother to read it -- I'm sorry. He did read
6 it. But I told him that the statement had nothing to
7 do with what I had just told him, and he told me that I
8 should sign it now, that they were very busy, that he
9 would later on come to see me at home or call me to his
10 office, and that we would correct the statement later
12 He never came to see me, nor did he ever call
13 me. But I was called by the Tribunal in Tuzla, so I
14 told them that the statement that I had previously
15 given was not correct, the statement that I gave to our
16 SUP, Ministry of the Interior. But they told me that
17 this did not matter, that what mattered was what I was
18 going to tell them, and this is how we proceeded.
19 So the original statement is not correct, and
20 I warned them about that.
21 Q. Mr. Ademovic, were you ever called again?
22 A. You mean by our people, by the SUP people,
23 the people from Tuzla?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. No, they didn't.
1 Q. Did you give one more statement to the
2 Tribunal later on?
3 A. I gave several statements to the Tribunal. I
4 don't know how many.
5 Q. While you were giving your statement to the
6 Tribunal, was anybody from the Bosniak police present
7 on that occasion?
8 A. I gave the statement in the SUP, in Tuzla.
9 Q. While you were giving the statement to the
10 Tribunal, was anybody present, anybody from the Tuzla
11 Ministry of the Interior, present in the office?
12 A. I don't know. I mean, they were wearing
13 uniforms. They were people from the SUP, people from
14 the Ministry of the Interior.
15 Q. Mr. Ademovic, do you then deny everything
16 that was said in the statement of the 18th of August,
18 A. I do not deny everything. There have been
19 errors, that is true.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
21 Mr. Visnjic, sorry to interrupt, but I believe the
22 witness has already answered that question. If you ask
23 specific questions, you will get specific answers. I
24 believe that the witness has already explained these
1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
2 Mr. President. I was already going to ask a very
3 specific question in relation to that.
4 Q. Mr. Ademovic, let me read you a passage from
5 your statement of the 18th of August, I mean, the
6 statement you said was a bit problematic, and I should
7 like to hear an explanation from you. I should like
8 you to explain the differences from that statement and
9 what you're saying now.
10 A. I don't know. I don't remember what
12 Q. Will you please wait for my question.
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] For the
15 interpreters, the Serbian version of the text is on
16 page 2.
17 Q. "In the meantime, I ended up in the Express
18 Transport compound, from where I saw a Chetnik, blond,
19 short, medium build, close to the asphalt road. He
20 snatched a three-or four-month old child from its
21 mother's arms and smashed it on the cement. He then
22 took the woman by the hair, put her head across his
23 knee and slit her throat. The two men from the crowd
24 wrapped the corpses in a blanket and took them away
25 along the Bratunac road."
1 A. No, no, I don't know what he wrote down.
2 This is what I heard later on. I heard that the woman
3 had been Naser's close relative, that she was killed
4 together with her child. But I did not say that.
5 Q. Yes, but the event, the way you related it
6 today, is not the same one that is described in the
8 A. I don't know how it happened. I only heard
9 people describe the event later on, how this Naser's
10 close relative was killed, together with her child.
11 Q. You told us about an event -- you told us
12 about this event today, and you told us that a baby was
13 killed by a soldier in the Zinc Company?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. However, this is not the same event.
16 A. Well, these are two different things.
17 Q. What do you mean, "two different things"?
18 A. Well, I can only say that the child -- I can
19 only claim that the child was killed.
20 Q. Did you ever mention this event, the way you
21 described it today, to the investigative authorities of
23 A. I may have told them that I had heard about
24 the event.
25 Q. But I'm asking you about this particular one
1 that took place near the Zinc Company.
2 A. Yes. I believe that I told them so.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please
4 pause between question and answer.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry
6 to interrupt you, Mr. Visnjic, but Witness, please, try
7 to make a pause before you start answering the
8 questions. This will be much easier for the
10 You speak the same language, the counsel and
11 you, and I know that it is very easy for the two of you
12 to communicate speedily, but you have to bear in mind
13 that there are interpreters between you. If you can
14 please bear this fact in mind, the Chamber will be
15 grateful. I could perhaps motion to you, I can tell
16 you either to slow down, like this [indicates], or to
17 make a pause.
18 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] I should like to
19 remind the interpreters to say "Question" and "Answer"
20 because sometimes it is very difficult to distinguish
21 between the two.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 Mr. Visnjic, you may continue.
24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
25 Mr. President.
1 Q. Mr. Ademovic, let me read you one more
2 passage from your statement of the 18th of August,
3 1995. It is the last passage on the first page of the
4 Serbo-Croatian text.
5 "When they left at around 1300, Chetniks
6 went into the crowd and immediately began taking away
7 young women. I was with Ibran Mehmic [phoen] and
8 Dzemal Karic from Kasaba in the Zinkada compound, when
9 I saw Chetniks taking away a group of about ten young
10 women towards the river, which was across from the
11 Zinkada. I do not know any of the young women, but I
12 know that the group of Chetniks who took away the women
13 was commanded by Zoran Mirosavljevic, son of Dimitri,
14 from Bratunac."
15 A. I already told you that there were a lot of
16 people there, and I told you that the people who took
17 my statement didn't actually listen to what I was
18 stating. They were flirting with this young woman. I
19 don't know what they wrote down. This is not what I
20 said, this is not what I saw, and this is not what I
21 told them.
22 Q. Mr. Ademovic, you described an event today in
23 which a Serb soldier took away a Muslim girl from her
25 A. Yes. That took place in the Zinc Factory.
1 There were two soldiers.
2 Q. Yes. That is the event I have in mind.
3 Could you please tell us whether the event that you
4 have described today and the event as it is described
5 in the statement, if such an event should have
6 happened, are one and the same event?
7 A. I was just about to explain this to you.
8 This is something different. This is not what I said.
9 Q. Mr. Ademovic, I should like to go back to the
10 12th of July, 1995 and your whereabouts on that day. I
11 think that the record shows that while you were near
12 Aljo's house, that you reached that particular location
13 at around 10.00, but I don't think it is correct.
14 A. No, this is not correct. I got there on
15 Tuesday, at 11.00 p.m. I arrived in Potocari, in the
16 Zinc Factory, on that evening.
17 Q. Yes. Very well. I should like to discuss
18 the incident of the killing of a number of Muslims by
19 Serb soldiers in the vicinity of Aljo's house. Do you
20 know which event I have in mind?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. When exactly did you reach the position from
23 which you could observe the event?
24 A. Well, I didn't have a watch, but it could
25 have been sometime after 3.00, 3.00 p.m. Yes, it was
1 in the afternoon hours.
2 Q. Could you give us an idea as to how long this
3 event lasted?
4 A. I don't know whether you followed my
5 testimony. It was a bit -- it was between two and
6 three hours. But I didn't have a watch, so I couldn't
7 tell you more precisely.
8 Q. I should now like to discuss a few details of
9 that event, if you can remember them.
10 You spoke about a kind of ramp. I more or
11 less have an idea as to what you had in mind, but could
12 you explain to the Judges what it was?
13 A. There were two -- there was a kind of
14 scaffold that had been prepared for the killing, and
15 there was a beam across which people were put, with
16 their hands behind their backs. The Chetniks were
17 holding their hands behind their backs. There was a
18 third Chetnik holding them by their head, and there was
19 a fourth one who was chopping their heads off and
20 throwing them on a pile.
21 Q. You said they used a kind of sword.
22 A. Well, some people call it a sword, some
23 people call it a knife. You probably know exactly what
24 I'm talking about. Some people even call it a
25 machete. We have hundreds of names for one particular
1 thing in the Bosnian language.
2 Q. Yes, but I believe that there is a difference
3 between a knife and a sword and a saber. Could you
4 please explain the difference to the Judges?
5 A. Well, I don't know what more you want. There
6 is this thing -- I must say that I didn't come close to
7 those men. I had not had any sleep for five days
8 because of the shelling, because of the commotion and
9 everything, but I could see a huge blade like this
10 [indicates] that they used for chopping off people's
11 heads. I don't know exactly how you would call it. We
12 call it, I don't know, a saber, a sword, a butcher's
14 Q. I know it's a bit uncomfortable for you to
15 remember these details, but could you tell us how it
16 happened, this chopping off of heads?
17 A. Yes, the same way -- they chopped off
18 people's heads the way you chop off heads of animals.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
20 Mr. Visnjic, what is the objective of your questions?
21 I mean, how can we be assisted by these details?
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
23 the witness has mentioned the approximate time of the
24 event, and he also gave us an approximate number of
25 people that were killed in this way.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
2 Mr. Visnjic, but I think that we should be able to
3 understand. We all realise that it is very difficult
4 for a witness to be very specific and precise after
5 five years, and we cannot expect the witness to tell
6 the exact time of the day, the exact number of the
7 victims. I don't think that these particular details
8 are relevant for the present case.
9 I do not wish to impose any method on you --
10 you're doing your job and I have a profound respect for
11 that -- but we simply cannot ask this witness to
12 remember things that took place five years ago, and he
13 just told you that he hadn't had any sleep for five
14 days. We have to be able to imagine the circumstances
15 of the event, which was very emotional, and we have to
16 bear in mind that there are certain limitations on
17 human perception.
18 I'm sorry, but I have to tell you that it is
19 almost a torture -- I'm a bit reluctant to use this
20 word -- for the witness, to try to remind him of all
21 these events. Well, I don't want to say that you've
22 been torturing this witness, but please bear in mind
23 the fact that we have to proceed in a speedy fashion
24 and we have to restrict ourselves to the details which
25 are really important and relevant. Please try to be
1 more precise and direct in your questions.
2 And I'm sorry once again for having
3 interrupted you, Mr. Visnjic.
4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
5 Mr. President.
6 Q. Mr. Ademovic, I'm now going to read a portion
7 from your statement given on the 23rd of May, 1996, and
8 I should like you to confirm this passage.
9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit
10 7, page 3, last paragraph of the Serbo-Croat version.
11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This
12 statement will be marked as Exhibit D7.
13 A. Why don't you read it to me? I can't read
14 very well.
15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. "In between the executions, the group of
17 soldiers was drinking and eating."
18 A. Yes, they were.
19 Q. "It looked like it was for them a kind of
20 entertainment --"
21 A. Yes, it was like a wedding. They would drink
22 and play amongst themselves in between two killings.
23 Q. "The same two soldiers went to fetch another
24 group of men, and the same event happened again."
25 A. Yes, they brought another group of men.
1 Q. Mr. Ademovic, at what intervals would those
2 two same soldiers go back to the Zinc Factory to bring
3 new people? And how many men would they bring along
4 with them?
5 A. Well, not less than four, not more than six
6 or seven. Somewhere between four and seven.
7 Q. How long did it take them to go and bring
8 that group? Well, the Judge has just told you --
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,
10 Witness. Could we make something into a rule? Before
11 you begin to answer, take one minute to think. Can you
12 understand what I'm saying? So Mr. Visnjic asks you a
13 question --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just
17 imagine that you have to take one minute to think about
18 your answer, and then answer. Okay? All right? Very
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have a
21 watch. I couldn't really time it. I couldn't know.
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. One more question, Mr. Ademovic, about that
24 incident. You said that bodies were put in some
25 camouflage bags, or something like that, if I
1 understood you well.
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. What kind of sacks were they?
4 A. Well, they are sky blue. They are more or
5 less like this chair here.
6 Q. Why camouflage? I don't understand. Was it
7 something with the interpretation?
8 A. Well, that's the colour, that's what I call
10 Q. Who is Aljo Hasanovic, Mr. Ademovic?
11 A. Aljo Hasanovic, the owner of the house. They
12 were slaughtering next to his house. Aljo.
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I have no
14 further questions, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
16 do you have any additional questions?
17 MR. HARMON: No, Mr. President, I have no
18 further questions.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge
21 Questioned by the Court:
22 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Bego Ademovic, good
23 afternoon. Can you hear me?
24 A. Good afternoon. I can hear you very well.
25 JUDGE RIAD: I just want to follow with you
1 some of this very painful experience you had. I will
2 not prolong it, as much as I can.
3 First you said, when I think the Prosecutor
4 asked you about the Bosnian Serb soldiers, you said
5 that that was no army. When you said that, I
6 understood, or perhaps it was meant, that these were
7 monsters and not soldiers. But did you also mean that
8 they were not organised completely, they were just wild
9 people running around, or was it disciplined as an
10 army, although they were acting like monsters? Did you
11 understand my question?
12 A. I understand your question. A proper army
13 wages a war against an army and does not just kill,
14 does not mutilate, does not rape the young girls, does
15 not cut arms, does not gouge out eyes, does not behead
16 people. So that to me, they're wild men. No army,
17 they are.
18 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. Please bear with me. It
19 so happened in previous wars, perhaps you were not
20 born, there was the Second World War, where some armies
21 exterminated people and they were still called armies.
22 So do you consider that this was just bands, wild
23 bands, or was it in the form of an army? I'm speaking
24 from the formation side, not their morality. I
25 understand your revolt, but we're not discussing their
1 morality. So the discipline, the organisation, the
2 weapons, and what constitutes an army officially.
3 A. The Chetnik leadership, the top, from
4 Milosevic in Belgrade, organised something like a hoard
5 of miscreants to exterminate the Muslims in Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina, to create Greater Serbia. When such a
7 case happened, I wasn't born then, but the same thing
8 was in 1941. In my village, 73 people burnt to death
9 in their houses, and 61 survived, and the tradition
10 goes on. That's what my parents told me. I don't
11 know. They killed my uncle and brothers and sisters.
12 And what do I know? Lots of my relatives.
13 JUDGE RIAD: Well, that brings me to another
14 question, because you also mentioned that the soldiers,
15 when they stopped you and cursed you and your group,
16 they told you, "This is a Serb country." Did they tell
17 you what you were supposed to do, where you were
18 supposed to go?
19 A. The soldier did not stop me. That was in
20 Potocari. When they stopped us, they did not insult
21 anybody, they did not offend anybody on the road. And
22 this happened in Potocari, on Wednesday, after 10.00.
23 They were cursing our balija mothers, "You'll all be
24 butchered. You will be burned in acid. This is our
25 Serb fatherland. This is Greater Serbia."
1 JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you were on your way
2 to Konjevic Polje, I remember you said two soldiers
3 asked the driver, Raco, when he stopped, they asked
4 him, "Is there anything for us," if you remember. What
5 did they mean by "Is there anything for us?"
6 A. Well, he meant if they liked somebody, they
7 would get them off, so to kill them, to rape.
8 JUDGE RIAD: In fact, you also mentioned that
9 sometimes, and you gave two different meanings, you
10 said, "They would stop people and choose the people
11 they liked to kill." What is the meaning of "choose
12 the people they liked"? I remember your words. You
13 said, "Sometimes the people they liked and sometimes
14 the people they suspected." Does that apply to women
15 or to men?
16 A. Well, women, if they liked them, to rape
17 them, and men, to finish them off, unless somebody was
18 a friend of theirs.
19 JUDGE RIAD: I found your words. You said,
20 "They would pick the people they recognised." Were
21 they after certain people, or they just took anyone?
22 A. That happened too, to look for individuals,
23 for specific individuals, but that only happened now
24 and then. They were usually taking everybody. In
25 Potocari, there lived Omer. He was born like this
1 [indicates], he was an invalid; he was 75 years old,
2 and they killed him too.
3 JUDGE RIAD: If you remember, you mentioned
4 that you saw something like 1.000 Muslims, driven by
5 Serbs, with their hands behind their heads. I think
6 that was when you were in the bus. Did you know after
7 that what happened to these men?
8 A. Killed in the playground, before Kasaba, all
9 of them.
10 JUDGE RIAD: And how did you know that?
11 A. People who watched it said, hiding in the
12 thicket and watching from the thicket. Brought to the
13 playground, put a table there, a PAM on the table,
14 around the table, and they would just go around, make a
15 round, and finish them all off.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Also by slaughtering them with
17 knives or shooting, or you don't know? You don't know
18 the way.
19 A. I heard only about shooting them dead, not
20 about slaughtering them dead.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Just one last question. Perhaps
22 I don't want to remind you. You said your mother died
23 in the forest, in the woods. How did she die?
24 A. My mother -- my mother was 81 and was over
25 100 kilogrammes. We were going through the woods -- we
1 were going through the forest and she remained there,
2 she died there.
3 JUDGE RIAD: I would like to thank you and to
4 apologise for having aroused these memories.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness
7 Ademovic, I have only one question for you. Are you
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
11 very much.
12 Witness Ademovic, you were a driver by
13 profession, and it took you to large cities, especially
14 before the war, on various occasions.
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For
17 instance, you must have been to Sarajevo very many
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In
21 Sarajevo, was there a military barracks there?
22 A. Yes, but I never went into the barracks.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was there a
24 police station there, for instance?
25 A. In Sarajevo, you mean? Yes. Yes, there
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In the
3 streets of Sarajevo, for instance, or perhaps some
4 other city, could you distinguish between a soldier and
5 a policeman?
6 A. You mean before the war?
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before the
8 war, yes.
9 A. Yes. Yes. They had different uniforms.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] They had
11 different uniforms.
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] On the
14 10th, the 11th, the 12th, the 13th of July, did you see
15 the difference between the police and the military
17 A. I didn't. Those camouflage uniforms are all
18 alike, and I know nothing about them. I knew what
19 Tito's uniform was, but that was a different type of
20 police and a different kind of army. Now I don't
21 understand anything.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So this was
23 your answer. Thank you very much. We should like to
24 thank you for coming to give your evidence. It is
25 always difficult to bring back those memories, to
1 remember those horrible things that you lived through,
2 but we hope that having come here, it will help you to
3 find peace for yourself and enough peace to live in
4 peace with other people, whether with people of your
5 religion, your race, or perhaps you will make some
6 other choice.
7 But perhaps you were not asked something that
8 you should like to say, that you had no other
9 opportunity to say. Is there something that you should
10 like to say now?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you,
12 Mr. President. I hope if Alija goes from power, his
13 party, and if Milosevic goes, then we shall live
14 together as we did before. If they stay on, there will
15 be no life for us.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
17 Thank you very much, and we wish you a happy return
19 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Once again,
20 Your Honour, I want to see if Exhibits D6 and D7 are
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
23 Mr. Visnjic, do you want to tender these documents?
24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Indeed,
25 Mr. President, yes. D6 and D7.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Any
2 objections? Mr. Harmon, do you object?
3 MR. HARMON: I have no objection to D6, and
4 if you just give me one minute to look at D7, no
5 objection to D7 either. Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As you
7 know, Mr. Visnjic, the Prosecutor needs to look into
8 it, to see if there is any obligation of
9 confidentiality, if there is anything that requires
10 different measures.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 So D6 and D7 are admitted, and Mr. Dubuisson will take
14 care of them.
15 Very well. It is now twenty-five past two.
16 I don't think that it is really possible to call in
17 another witness, is it, Mr. Harmon?
18 MR. HARMON: It's up to Your Honours,
19 Mr. President. We're prepared to present another
20 witness, but I leave it to your discretion.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank
22 you, Mr. Harmon. I do not really think it will be very
23 convenient and useful to have a witness who will only
24 take the solemn declaration and then leave. So we
25 shall adjourn today, until half past nine tomorrow.
1 I wish to apologise to the interpreters. I
2 know the interpreters are well familiar with the
3 working conditions, better than we do. We are really
4 doing our best to help them, but there is --
5 spontaneity, I think, is more powerful, and I don't
6 think that even the President of the Chamber can not
7 interfere with the witness and the way in which he
8 speaks. But we shall perhaps have to think of some
9 technical device to keep us remembering the
10 interpreters, that they are there.
11 Very well. I hope that if we understand what
12 their working conditions are, then perhaps we shall be
13 able to do something about them and make them better.
14 Very well. I wish you a pleasant afternoon,
15 and we shall be back here at half past nine. Thank
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
18 2.38 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
19 the 30th day of March, 2000, at
20 9.30 a.m.