Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4232

1 Tuesday, 20 June 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.38 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, ladies and

7 gentlemen. Good morning, technical booth, the interpreters. Good

8 morning, Mr. Harmon, Mr. Cayley. Good morning, Mr. Petrusic,

9 Mr. Visnjic. Good morning, General Krstic.

10 Good morning, Witness. Are you feeling rested today? Fine. As

11 you know, today you're going to answer questions which Mr. Petrusic is

12 going to put to you. I would like to remind you that you are still

13 testifying under oath.

14 Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS V [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, my

18 learned friends from the Prosecution. Good morning, Witness V.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

20 Q. Witness V, did you acquire your initial skills in radio telegraphy

21 in the army of the former Yugoslavia?

22 A. I wouldn't agree with that. I'm not a telegraphist.

23 Q. Was your initial knowledge about electronic surveillance and radio

24 interception acquired in the army of the former JNA?

25 A. No, I wouldn't agree with that. I was a signalman in the army.

Page 4233

1 Q. Were you deployed in the unit for electronic surveillance and

2 radio interception in the JNA?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Witness V, I have no intention of showing you a statement that you

5 gave to the Prosecution, but can you remember saying, on the 6th and 12th

6 of May, 1999, when you were interviewed, that you were engaged in those

7 activities?

8 A. I was a signalman in the JNA, and I engaged in these activities

9 only in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 Q. How long did your training last regarding communication systems in

11 the JNA?

12 A. Six months.

13 Q. Was the vocational training in communications -- did that take

14 place throughout those six months?

15 A. No. The first three months were devoted to general training, and

16 the second three months to more specialist training.

17 Q. When you joined the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you engaged in

18 electronic reconnaissance and radio interception?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us, at Okresanica, which devices did you use?

21 A. They were amateur radio devices which were refurbished to be

22 adjusted to the needs we had.

23 Q. Could you tell us whether there was any difference between the

24 equipment and the devices?

25 A. Could you repeat that question?

Page 4234

1 Q. Can you tell us, was there any difference between the equipment

2 that you used and devices?

3 A. There was a difference. As I have already told you, those were

4 amateur devices that were adjusted to our needs.

5 Q. In order to monitor a conversation, what was essential in terms of

6 equipment?

7 A. Your Honours, I'd rather not answer that question.

8 Q. Is that a military secret?

9 A. Well, let us call it that.

10 Q. Can you be more specific without saying -- without the

11 qualification of uncertainty?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. If the army you belonged to supplied photographs of that

14 equipment, Exhibit 298 and 299, does that mean that you are still under

15 the obligation to keep this as a military secret?

16 A. I'd rather not talk about that.

17 Q. Is that your will?

18 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if I could interrupt Mr. Petrusic, and

19 could I ask for a closed session?

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Petrusic, do you agree

21 we're going to go into closed session or, rather, private session?

22 MR. CAYLEY: I can explain myself once we're in closed session,

23 Your Honour.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Closed session, sorry.

25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session now.

Page 4235

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8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session now.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Mr. Petrusic, you may continue.

12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. When you were monitoring a "conversation," let me put that in

14 quotation marks, you took it down on a piece of paper.

15 A. Some of the conversations. If there was a shortage of notebooks,

16 then this would be taken down on pieces of paper which would later be

17 bound together. But most of those were lost.

18 Q. Those that were not lost, what did you do with them?

19 A. They were handed over to the superior command ad acta.

20 Q. Were they forwarded by means of a computer that was installed

21 there?

22 A. Written reports were sent by computer and the notebooks that were

23 filled in completely would be forwarded by hand.

24 Q. Witness V, I should like to use an example and ask you, as a

25 specialist in the area, to explain it for us. If, by way of example,

Page 4238

1 Zlatar calls Badem -- you know the code names, the secret names -- or to

2 be more practical, if Bratunac calls Vlasenica, do you hear both

3 participants in the conversation?

4 A. That depends. Sometimes it is possible to hear both; sometimes

5 one; sometimes one is more audible than the other. It depends.

6 Q. In this particular example, can you tell us what that depends on?

7 A. It depends on the direction of the antenna and the locations.

8 Q. Those two participants in the conversation, were they on the same

9 frequency?

10 A. I'd rather not answer that question.

11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, fully appreciating

12 Mr. Cayley's objection, I would propose we go back into closed session.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Closed session, please.

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5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see in the public gallery that

7 we are in public session, so you may continue, Mr. Petrusic. Thank you

8 very much.

9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Witness V, Exhibit 283 of the Prosecution, please look at the

11 highlighted page 30 with the initials in the upper right-hand corner,

12 "W.E." Witness V, you can put it on the ELMO.

13 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, just out of caution, there is actually

14 a signature on that page of somebody that could be identified

15 potentially.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Cayley, you're right.

17 Perhaps we could cover or hide the signature with a piece of paper.

18 Before putting it on the ELMO, conceal the signature with a sticker,

19 please.

20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as the number and

21 the initials are the subject of my question, perhaps it would be better

22 not to place it on the ELMO but just to show it to the witness.

23 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, unfortunately it was placed on the

24 ELMO, so maybe if we could -- if you could make an order essentially to

25 stop the public feed on --

Page 4242

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Madam Registrar, we need

2 to redact the showing of this document, so the signature needs to be

3 redacted, perhaps the whole document that was shown on the ELMO.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. The --

5 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, the booth is indicating to me that

6 they didn't switch to public feed, so it never went out on the television

7 screen. So the problem doesn't arise.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any event, I think it is

9 possible to show the exhibit with this small sticker on it, or focus on

10 number 30 and the initials "W.E." Mr. Usher, are you following me? Show

11 only this part here. Yes. I think it is the upper corner, the upper

12 right-hand corner. Fine.

13 Mr. Petrusic, I'm sorry. Please continue.

14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I knew this would

15 have caused so many problems, I could have withdrawn that question, but

16 anyway ...

17 Q. Witness V, this page that carries the number 30 and the initials

18 below, were they placed there by you or one of your colleagues?

19 A. No, I didn't note that down. Perhaps one of my colleagues did.

20 Actually, I don't know.

21 Q. Do you know whether one of your colleagues had a similar signature

22 to this and these initials?

23 A. No.

24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has no

25 further questions. Witness V, thank you.

Page 4243

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

3 Mr. Petrusic.

4 Mr. Cayley.

5 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Re-examined by Mr. Cayley:

7 Q. Witness, I only have really one question for you. Mr. Petrusic

8 asked you in your cross-examination, when you were listening to a

9 transmission, whether you could hear both parties to the conversation.

10 And your answer was that sometimes you could hear both parties and

11 sometimes you could only hear one party, and it depended on a number of

12 factors.

13 The question that I have for you is simply this: Isn't it a fact

14 that it was possible to monitor both participants in a conversation, and

15 in fact you did on a number of occasions?

16 A. In many occasions, you could follow both participants, as I've

17 already said. There were situations where one participant was not very

18 audible, not as audible as the other.

19 Q. And when one of the parties was not audible, what did you write

20 down in your written note of the intercept?

21 A. Usually, if we couldn't hear at all, then we would make a note of

22 it and say that one of the participants was completely inaudible. If it

23 was partially audible, then we would put three dots where it was not

24 audible and continue with the conversation.

25 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I don't have any further questions for

Page 4244

1 the witness. Thank you.

2 Questioned by the Court:

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Cayley.

4 Judge Fouad Riad, do you have any questions? No.

5 Madam Judge Wald.

6 JUDGE WALD: Witness V, I just have a few general questions.

7 The first is: Based on your knowledge and experience in both the

8 JNA army and later in the Bosnian army, is it generally true that when

9 parties are speaking, military parties, to one another on these lines,

10 they have a general notion that they may be intercepted? I mean are they

11 aware that there may be interceptions by a different -- by an opposition

12 force? I mean generally aware. I'm not asking you about any specific

13 situation, but are they not generally aware that these relay stations are

14 in existence and may be monitoring them?

15 A. According to some army rules, this should be respected. That is

16 to say, they ought to know that they might be monitored. In most cases,

17 depending on the circumstances and in wartime, they don't always adhere to

18 that.

19 JUDGE WALD: So they have a general idea that there's a good

20 chance they might be monitored. I think you've answered that, so I'll go

21 on to the second question.

22 Are there, without again getting specific in any way, are there

23 ways in which, say, two military posts in the same army could communicate

24 with each other by radio that would not -- that couldn't be intercepted,

25 that would defy being intercepted? I mean do they have defensive devices

Page 4245

1 so that they won't be intercepted, or encryption, or something so that the

2 opposite force would not be able to intercept them? I don't want to know

3 what they are, but do those -- if they really need to convey some secret

4 material from Post A to Post B, are there ways? I don't want to know what

5 they are, but are there ways that they can do it?

6 A. Yes, of course that exists.

7 JUDGE WALD: Okay. So my third question then is: If somebody in

8 Post A wanted to convey something that was very sensitive or delicate to

9 Post B, why would they use an open -- or a line in which there was a risk,

10 a real risk, of interception? Why would they not use whatever these

11 devices are that would be much harder or impossible to intercept? I mean,

12 are there reasons, based on your observations and knowledge in both

13 armies, that would explain why somebody who had some very sensitive

14 information would use a line that was very possibly open to interception?

15 A. Well, number one, perhaps they don't have any other means of

16 communication. Secondly, usually people think, "Well, they won't hear me

17 this time." So those are the two sort of reasons.

18 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness V, I have two questions

20 for you. You said that one of the factors which could facilitate

21 communication was the direction of the antennae. As you know, the

22 communication channels here are wavelengths, airwaves. How do climatic

23 conditions or how can the climate and climatic conditions influence

24 communications? Or to put it another way, can the climate influence

25 communication lines?

Page 4246

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you explain that to us a

3 little?

4 A. Well, I'm not an expert in that field, I'm afraid, so I can't.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For example, in January or July,

6 in principle, what is a better time, a better season for communicating?

7 A. Probably July, at least in the cases I worked on.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, is it July or

9 January?

10 A. July, I said.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] July. Thank you.

12 Another question. We saw the numbering of the pages with the

13 initials, the "WV" and the "E." When you wrote your notes -- you did the

14 transcript of this little notebook -- were those page numbers already

15 there or were the pages numbered once the notebook had been completed?

16 A. When we received our notebooks, the pages were already numbered,

17 because this was a measure of precaution, to avoid somebody ripping out

18 the pages.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

20 Judge Fouad Riad has a question for you.

21 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 [In English] Witness V, good morning.

23 Just to follow up on the question asked by my colleague. You were

24 in the JNA for some time. Did you receive any kind of directions or

25 instructions that when there is something very sensitive you should not

Page 4247

1 transmit it through any means which could be intercepted? Were there some

2 kinds of things which should not be done in this way which could be

3 intercepted? You said there were other means. Were there military rules

4 for protection of very secretive information?

5 A. There were. You had to use certain codes and so on, names, so

6 on.

7 JUDGE RIAD: This would be sufficient protection, or were there

8 other means of keeping items which cannot be reached in the JNA?

9 A. My work post, the work I did, we had to adhere to some of these

10 things. But in other jobs, on other posts, the protective measures might

11 have been more stringent.

12 JUDGE RIAD: So you think that there were other means which cannot

13 be intercepted.

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Witness V. That

17 brings you to the end of your testimony here at the Tribunal. We should

18 like to thank you for coming and wish you bon voyage to your country. Do

19 not get out of your seat straight away because you enjoy protective

20 measures. I think we need to take a break to prepare for the next

21 witness.

22 Mr. Cayley, I think we also have exhibits to tender.

23 MR. CAYLEY: What you just mentioned, Mr. President, in respect of

24 a break, we've spoken with our learned colleagues, a 15-minute break

25 because the next witness requires voice distortion and that has to be set

Page 4248

1 up, so now would be an appropriate time.

2 If I may deal with the exhibits before that. There are two

3 photographs, Exhibits 298 and 299. Then there are seven intercepts.

4 Bearing in mind the decision of the Court yesterday, Your Honours,

5 in which you were delaying admission of the notebooks, I merely wish to

6 raise a small point. I'm in no way wishing to challenge a decision that's

7 already been made, but in respect of the individual intercepts, these are

8 very short, brief extracts.

9 My understanding of the rationale behind your general decision was

10 the fact that the Defence were being expected to agree to admission of a

11 very large document which they had not had the opportunity to read in its

12 entirety. I don't believe that that would prevent from being admitted the

13 individual intercepts, because they are, as I say, one-and-a-half-page

14 extracts. They can be read. The witness has offered foundation for

15 them.

16 So I would offer into evidence Exhibits 313A, B, and C, 314A, B,

17 and C, 315A, B, and C, 316A, B, and C, 317A, B, and C, 318A and B, and

18 318/1A and B. And -- sorry, my colleague has just informed me -- 316/1A,

19 B, and C. That is, of course, on the understanding that the notebooks

20 themselves, from which these documents are extracted and translated, are

21 not yet admitted into evidence.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic, are you able at

23 this point to state your views with regard to yesterday's exhibits and the

24 ones tendered today? Mr. Petrusic.

25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with respect to

Page 4249

1 these two exhibits, 298 and 299, the Defence has no objections to make

2 there in view of what Mr. Cayley has just presented. But these

3 transcripts of the radio communications are, once again, a source from

4 this overall material that we have received.

5 I do not wish at any point, in any way, to be taken as

6 justification on the part of the Defence counsel, but the Defence is still

7 not able to say whether it agrees to the exhibits or objects to them. We

8 are still not able to say, so my position is the same as it was during

9 yesterday's proceedings, and at the end of this session, I would like to

10 reserve the right to either agree to the documents tendered or to object.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley, any comments?

12 MR. CAYLEY: Simply this, Mr. President, and I don't wish to sort

13 of repeat myself ad nauseam: My understanding of the Court's decision was

14 that additional time was to be given to the Defence because they had not

15 had sufficient time to read all of these three volumes in their entirety.

16 These are very short documents, the extracts; they can be read very

17 quickly. The witness has provided foundation by identifying his

18 handwriting and confirming that he took them down.

19 By admitting these into evidence, it in no way admits the entire

20 notebook, so the linkage for the Prosecution in that respect is still

21 missing. But, as I say, the witness has identified these, he's provided

22 foundation, and it's my view, my submission, that they should be admitted

23 into evidence at this point in time.

24 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Cayley, let me just make sure I understand your

25 position. Suppose we were to admit these excerpts into evidence now, and

Page 4250

1 then in a week or so or whenever, Defence counsel, they had some objection

2 to the accuracy or something of the notebook translation as it was later

3 typed up into the written report, to the report which has been admitted.

4 In your view, would they be able to make that objection now that the

5 report itself had already been admitted? I think that's the only concern

6 that we would have.

7 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, what was actually going through my mind

8 was this: It was actually economy in use of witness. I'm sorry I may not

9 actually be answering your question directly.

10 JUDGE WALD: Go ahead.

11 MR. CAYLEY: We had a single witness who identified all of these

12 books.

13 JUDGE WALD: Yes.

14 MR. CAYLEY: If the Defence raise a problem with all of the books

15 in their entirety, we would call that one witness back. Each of these

16 individual intercepts extracted from the notebooks have been identified by

17 a particular witness. If these are admitted now -- and I have to say for

18 the moment, and I can't speak for the Defence, I can't see what objection

19 they can make to this specific document because they've been able to read

20 it and it it's very brief -- we would not then have to call back each of

21 the intercept operators to answer questions on each of the individual

22 exhibits. I know it's not Mr. Petrusic's intention that we should call

23 back all of these witnesses, but we may find ourselves in a position where

24 we would have to do so.

25 So that's where my thought in this was coming from. I don't

Page 4251

1 believe it places the Defence at a disadvantage because the source, the

2 books which we need to rely on to make the evidential link, are still not

3 admitted into evidence yet. That's a piece of our puzzle that we still

4 have to get in.

5 JUDGE WALD: Excuse me for interrupting you. So suppose,

6 worst-case scenario, something happens and the books don't get admitted

7 into evidence, would that automatically invalidate these transcripts if

8 they had already been admitted into evidence?

9 MR. CAYLEY: I don't believe so, Your Honour, based on the Rules

10 of Evidence with which I've become familiar. Perhaps our systems --

11 perhaps the answer to your question would be, "Yes," but I think here it

12 would perhaps lower their value on the scale of evidence. But I do

13 believe that you would still be able to consider them in evidence. You

14 just wouldn't have the source book available. It would perhaps be a "7"

15 rather than a "10", to put it crudely.

16 JUDGE WALD: All right, thank you.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] With respect to the documents

19 and their admittance, the Chamber feels that they should be taken

20 together. It is true that they are of a different nature, but we're going

21 to give them the same treatment all together and we are going to give the

22 Defence time to pronounce themselves.

23 But I should like to tell the Defence that it is important, with

24 respect to the Prosecutor's job, to know whether the documents are

25 admitted or not. So as soon as the Defence counsel can give us a

Page 4252

1 response -- it would be advisable by the end of the week -- please do so,

2 and don't leave it to the last moment.

3 It is true that the Chamber has made a decision, but the Chamber

4 also understands that it is very important for the Prosecution to know

5 whether they can count on those documents or not. And it is in that light

6 that we are going to accord the same conditions to these documents, except

7 298 and 299, which have been admitted today. But with respect to the

8 other documents, we would be following the same regime but would like to

9 ask the Defence counsel to give us a timely response. Thank you.

10 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I'm sorry. There's four more exhibits

11 which I suspect my learned colleagues will not have a problem with. 138

12 and 139, which were maps offered by my learned friend Mr. Harmon, the

13 first map showing the operator locations at Okresanica, 139 showing lines

14 of radio communication. 137 was the list of call signs legend, and 300

15 was the list of operators which the previous witness identified. That

16 document should be under seal because it identifies many of the

17 witnesses. Thank you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think, Mr. Cayley -- yes, very

19 well. I have just received the interpretation, so that's all right. So

20 that particular one was under seal.

21 Mr. Petrusic, with respect to the exhibits.

22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has no objections to

23 make to the documents put forward, but I feel that Document 137, Lasta,

24 that it should read " Istra" and not "Lasta". But that is just a

25 suggestion on my part. That is to say, we suggest that the Prosecution

Page 4253

1 check that word out.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley --

3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] But I have no other objections to

4 the documents.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley, do you accept the

6 suggestion made to you by the Defence, to replace "Lasta" by " Istra"?

7 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you, Mr. Petrusic. I

8 think rather than myself giving an answer, we should actually check with

9 the witnesses with whom we're dealing, because I'm not an expert on this.

10 It's possible that we made a mistake in the name of the call sign. But my

11 understanding also is that these call signs did change from time to time,

12 so I would appreciate that possibility and maybe we will amend it. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So 137, Exhibit 137,

15 was shown to the witness as it stands.

16 Mr. Petrusic, all these exhibits, 138, 137, 139, are public ones,

17 and the other one is under seal. If there are any corrections, we can

18 introduce them later on. But otherwise, they are admitted. 300 is under

19 seal.

20 We will now have a 20-minute recess to prepare the courtroom for

21 the next witness.

22 Witness V, please remain seated for a few more minutes. Thank you

23 for coming.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 4254

1 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can you

4 hear us?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you please read the solemn

7 declaration that the usher is going to give you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 WITNESS: WITNESS W

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Perhaps you could

13 get closer to the microphone, please. Move closer to the microphone,

14 please.

15 Are you comfortable?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this better?

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. You are now going to see

18 your name written on the piece of paper that the usher is going to show

19 you, and tell us, yes or no, whether that is your name.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you're now going to answer

22 questions put to you by Mr. Harmon, who is on your right, please.

23 Show it to the Defence, please.

24 MR. HARMON: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. President. Good

25 morning, Your Honours. Good morning to my colleagues for the Defence.

Page 4255

1 Examined by Mr. Harmon:

2 Q. Witness, I'm going to be referring to you as "Witness W"

3 throughout the course of your testimony.

4 Now, Witness W, can you tell me, what is your nationality?

5 A. Yes. I'm a Muslim.

6 Q. And from what country do you come?

7 A. I come from Bosnia and Herzegovina.

8 Q. Could you describe for the Judges your educational background,

9 please?

10 A. Yes. I have a two-year post-secondary education as a teacher of

11 technical education.

12 Q. Are you currently employed in Bosnia?

13 A. Yes, I am.

14 Q. Where do you work?

15 A. I'm working in AID.

16 Q. What does "AID" stand for?

17 A. It stands for the Agency for Investigation and Documentation.

18 Q. The translation that I heard was "Agency for Investigation and

19 Documentation". Is that a correct description or is it the Agency for

20 Information and Documentation?

21 A. You received the correct translation.

22 Q. Before the agency for which you worked, AID, was it named the

23 Service for State Security or SDB?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Have you been employed by SDB since 1982?

Page 4256

1 A. Correct. From 1982, I worked there continuously.

2 Q. Witness W, I'd like to turn your attention now to the time period

3 when there was war in Bosnia, specifically in December of 1994, and ask

4 you at that time did you form an electronic surveillance unit composed of

5 members from the SDB?

6 A. A minor correction. I didn't form it, (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 Q. Now, what was the purpose of this particular unit you've just

11 described?

12 A. The purpose. I wouldn't call it a unit. It wasn't a military

13 unit. It was a department of the service. And its purpose was to go on

14 site, to choose an appropriate location, and to survey and intercept radio

15 waves and thereby acquire interesting information for the needs of our

16 service.

17 Q. Did you and other members of your service conduct those activities

18 from December of 1994 until the end of the war?

19 A. It is true that we engaged in those activities in that period.

20 MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have the assistance of the usher,

21 please, and if I could have the usher place Prosecutor's Exhibit 138 on

22 the ELMO. 138 is a map. Mr. Usher, that's fine, thank you.

23 Q. Witness W, can you tell the Judges where you conducted these

24 activities from, from what location?

25 A. In the period from 1994 until the end of 1995, I was at the

Page 4257

1 location at (redacted).

2 MR. HARMON: And the witness has pointed to that location on

3 Prosecutor's Exhibit 138.

4 Q. Witness W, how many men were working with you in this particular

5 endeavour?

6 A. (redacted)

7 (redacted).

8 Q. Can you tell the Judges how you conducted your work in terms of

9 shifts?

10 A. Our work was conducted in shifts. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 Q.Now, you've informed us that (redacted) unit was working at the location

16 of (redacted), and my question is: Did the army also have an

17 Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit at that same location conducting similar

18 activities?

19 A. Yes. Actually, this was an army facility in which we used only

20 one room. It is a facility in which our corps had its own sections for

21 reconnaissance, and we were given this one room to use which we did use.

22 So we engaged in the same activities.

23 Q. Witness W, while you engaged in the same activities, was your work

24 separate and independent from the similar work being conducted by the army

25 units at that same location?

Page 4258

1 A. The work was separate but it was not completely independent

2 because we coordinated in many areas. Should I explain that further?

3 Q. We'll come to that, Witness W. When I say "independent," you

4 didn't use the same staff members that the army used in attempting to

5 intercept communications, did you?

6 A. That is correct. We had civilians and they had soldiers.

7 Q. In addition, you touched on it in your previous answer, your

8 physical location where you were conducting your intercept operations was

9 in a different part of the facility than where the army was conducting its

10 intercept operations; is that correct?

11 A. It was the same facility. I wouldn't like to describe it, but

12 within that one building, we were one of the rooms in a row, the room that

13 was free, unoccupied, at the time.

14 Q. All right. Witness W, my point is that you were in a separate

15 room with members of your unit conducting your activities; the army, at

16 the same facility, was conducting its activities from different rooms; is

17 that correct?

18 A. That is correct. We had that one room in which we worked, stayed,

19 and even slept in our free time.

20 Q. In spite of the differences between the two units, the army unit

21 and the unit from the SDB, did you use similar types of equipment to

22 attempt to capture enemy radio communications?

23 A. Yes, very similar equipment. The equipment had the same system of

24 work. One could distinguish the model or the type, the manufacturer of

25 the equipment. It had a different manufacturer.

Page 4259

1 Q. Witness W, I'm not a radio aficionado, but you have become quite

2 familiar with the techniques that were used to intercept these enemy

3 communications. Were the techniques employed by the SDB unit and the

4 techniques that were employed by the army units at (redacted) similar?

5 A. Yes, similar.

6 Q. Now, Witness W, could you enlighten us, please, as to the

7 different objectives between the types of communications in general that

8 your unit was attempting to intercept and, to the extent that you know it,

9 the types of communication the army was attempting to intercept?

10 The reason I ask you that question is I'd like you to shed some

11 light on why two units at the same location, using similar equipment and

12 techniques, were operating. Could you shed some light on this issue for

13 us, please?

14 A. In that period, that is, at that time in December 1994, when we

15 moved into that location, our main aim was to collect information

16 regarding the interests of the State Security Service. I don't know

17 whether it is necessary for me to explain what kind of information those

18 are.

19 Q. Witness W, suffice it to say it wasn't exclusively military

20 information; is that correct?

21 A. We did not collect military information, but if, in the course of

22 our activities, we came by such information, we would pass it on to the

23 army unit.

24 Q. Now, just so the record is perfectly clear, in July of 1995 when

25 the VRS took over the enclave of Srebrenica, was your unit operating from

Page 4260

1 (redacted)?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. During the period of time when the enclave fell, did your unit

4 collect military communications and record military communications?

5 A. Yes. In that period we did not -- we were not particular. The

6 situation was such that we all had to dedicate all our efforts to

7 everything that was going on.

8 Q. Now, let me talk about the cooperation and the coordination

9 between your intercept unit and the army units that were also intercepting

10 communications. Did the army share with you intercepted communications

11 that it received?

12 A. Let me elaborate a little. It was not customary until then to

13 exchange information at that level of that type, but when this situation

14 became so difficult, we did so on the spot. We agreed and implemented the

15 agreement and exchanged information throughout in both directions; that

16 is, the army would share their information with us and we would share all

17 our information with them, at (redacted).

18 Q. When you say "at this period of time," are you referring to the

19 period of time when the enclave of Srebrenica fell to the VRS?

20 A. Yes, yes, and throughout the time of the events that followed

21 after the fall of Srebrenica.

22 Q. And did you exchange this information, at a minimum, on a daily

23 basis?

24 A. Yes, we exchanged them on a daily basis.

25 Q. And did you exchange the information more often if the information

Page 4261

1 that the army had intercepted was very urgent, very important?

2 A. Yes, depending on the urgency. We would assess the urgency in

3 such a way that we classified information as especially urgent and

4 ordinary information. We didn't make any further distinctions in

5 assessing urgency. It was either very urgent or not very urgent. Very

6 urgent information was exchanged immediately, and just the urgent, several

7 times during the day.

8 Q. Witness W, I'd like you to explain mechanically how the

9 information that the army had, that they wanted to provide to you, was

10 obtained by you. How was it exchanged?

11 A. Of course I'll explain that. The information obtained by members

12 of the corps, the 2nd Corps, were processed in their communications centre

13 and converted from paper to computer. And after that, using a diskette,

14 the file would be typed in. The contents of the information would be

15 received on a diskette on our own computer. We would record that

16 information under our own numbers, and we would add a sentence which would

17 read, I think, "Taken over from the unit of the 2nd Corps," so that our

18 superiors would be able to distinguish between the information we had

19 obtained and the information obtained by that unit.

20 Q. Witness W, so it's perfectly clear, would the information that the

21 army gave you be downloaded onto a disk and then given to the SDB?

22 A. Yes. My department would receive it.

23 Q. What they would receive would be the complete text of one or more

24 intercepted communications that the army had obtained that particular day;

25 is that correct?

Page 4262

1 A. Yes. In one file, they could have one report, or five, or ten.

2 It depended on how much material they would store in that file, how many

3 reports.

4 MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have the assistance of the usher,

5 please, and I would like first of all shown to the witness Prosecutor's

6 Exhibit 302/2C. It's a four-page document in B/C/S.

7 Witness W, if you just review that document before we place it on

8 the ELMO, then we'll place it on the ELMO, and I want you to identify

9 certain parts of that exhibit, please.

10 For Your Honours' benefit, this particular exhibit has a four-page

11 B/C/S text, and then the last conversation on the B/C/S of that particular

12 document has been translated into French and English. So only one of the

13 conversations on this 302/2C has been translated into French and English.

14 Q. Witness W, have you had a chance to review Prosecutor's Exhibit

15 302/2C?

16 A. Yes, I have looked at it.

17 MR. HARMON: Now, if the usher could place that on the ELMO.

18 Q. Witness W, I'm going to ask you -- Mr. Usher, if you would kindly

19 place the top portion of the document so it is visible on the ELMO.

20 Witness W, can you take a look at the document that's on the ELMO,

21 and can you identify this document, please?

22 A. As I have said, it is a document or information obtained by the PB

23 of the 2nd Corps and forwarded to my department. My department would

24 register that document under number 626 on the 14th of July, 1995, with an

25 indication that it was taken over from the 2nd Corps. This was the

Page 4263

1 standard practice.

2 Q. And the date, "14/7/95", is the date that you received the

3 communications that are contained in this document from the army; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes. On that date, we received this file on a disk. We typed it

6 into our computer on the edit programme that we used, and we added --

7 there's something I forgot to say. In the heading of such a document

8 which would be forwarded to us by the corps, there would be their header

9 with the contents. And instead of that, we would put our number, the

10 date, and the indication that it was taken over from the 2nd Corps.

11 Everything else is the same as the original text. It is the original

12 text.

13 Q. The original text as received from the army?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, if you would turn to the last page of

16 the B/C/S version. It has an ERN number of 00927783, and if you would

17 place that on the ELMO.

18 Q. Witness W, there appears on the ELMO now a conversation. Is this

19 one of the conversations that you received from the army on the 14th of

20 July, 1995?

21 A. Yes. That is within that one file that we received that day.

22 MR. HARMON: What Your Honours then have is a translation in

23 French and English of that one conversation. I will read the translation

24 into the record, and I would also direct Your Honours' attention to

25 another exhibit which was tendered through Witness U. It is Exhibit

Page 4264

1 302/1A, 1B, and 1C. 1C is the handwritten version of this same

2 conversation that was recorded by Witness U.

3 Now, I will read into the record the translation of that last

4 conversation that's found on Prosecutor's Exhibit 302/2C.

5 "784700 MHz, Channel 3 at 2102 hours.

6 Participants: Palma Duty Officer (Major

7 Jokic) - Badem - X - Y.

8 : Hello, Badem. Let me talk to Beara.

9 B: Who wants to talk to him?

10 : The Palma duty officer wants to talk to

11 him. Beara is needed urgently, somebody

12 needs him. The Superior Command urgently

13 needs him, but he has to call me.

14 B: Okay.

15 P: Okay what? Give me Beara, don't hang

16 up.

17 J: Hello, who is it, Major, I'm the duty

18 officer at Palma. I need Beara urgently.

19 This is Major Jokic, who is that? Why the

20 fuck are you not answering? Is Ostoja

21 there? Is Brko there? Don't fuck around,

22 the line has to be free and you must pick it

23 up right away! Who is Ostoja? Is Ostoja

24 there? Have him call me urgently. I will, I

25 will. Hello! Hello!

Page 4265

1 B: Here is Beara, you have him on the

2 line.

3 J: Hello!

4 X: ... Hello. Is the operations duty officer

5 looking for me? Go ahead. Vojanovic is not

6 here, he's up at Snagovo. There are some

7 problems there, at the line I've told you

8 about. The Turks have pushed our guys back

9 toward Crni Vrh.

10 Y: ...

11 X: Yes. I told him to consolidate the lines

12 up there. That's it.

13 J: Hello!

14 B: Just a moment. One moment old man.

15 J: Is that Beara? Jokic here.

16 BE: ...

17 J: We were together, Colonel, Sir. Number

18 155 called you and asked you to call him

19 urgently.

20 BE: ...

21 J: Number 155. That's, I mean, Superior

22 Command, you go ahead and call them, you

23 have, so I don't speak like this.

24 BE: ...

25 J: Yes. Hey. We have huge problems over

Page 4266

1 here.

2 BE: ...

3 J: There are big problems. Well with the

4 people, I mean, with the parcel.

5 BE: ...

6 J: Who? Drago is nowhere around. I don't

7 know where the others are all day.

8 BE: ...

9 J: What? Call up there number 155 in the

10 Superior Command and that's it. Okay,

11 boss.

12 BE: ... Why number 155? Where is that?

13 J: Well, I can't tell you on this line,

14 you know. You have it over there at

15 signalsmen', who that is.

16 BE: Yes?

17 J: Bye.

18 Remark: Thanks to the switchboard operator's

19 mistake at Badem we recorded a conversation

20 between X and Y, who couldn't be heard,

21 while he was intercepting and the line 44 was

22 open for Jokic."

23 And that ends the translation of the last conversation that is found on

24 Prosecutor's Exhibit 302/2C.

25 Now, Witness W, I'd like to return to the work that was being

Page 4267

1 performed by yourself and by members of your unit, and what I'd like you

2 to do, please, is walk us through the procedures that were used by the SDB

3 when they intercepted a communication. What I would like you to do is

4 start with the time an individual who was attempting to intercept

5 communications had a pair of headphones on and walk us through the

6 procedure of recording that conversation and transmitting that

7 conversation to your higher superiors.

8 A. Yes. Perhaps we should go a step backwards first and then take a

9 step forward.

10 After looking at the frequency spectrum, searching it, and we were

11 able to differentiate the frequency that was of interest to us and

12 determine the exact channel we were interested in, and setting the radio

13 devices so the operators could monitor that particular conversation and

14 tape conversations of that kind in such a way that from the reception set,

15 the receiving set, which was made up of several components, the NF signal

16 or the voice signal would be brought onto the Uher tape recorder, and this

17 recorded in volume audibly each conversation.

18 As soon as a operator heard a conversation of this type going on,

19 he would switch on the tape recorder, the tape recorder would then begin

20 recording, and after having recorded the conversation, depending on its

21 urgency, that is to say, if it was an urgent conversation, it would be --

22 that tape, that is to say, would be relayed to a free Uher and

23 reproduced. Another operator, the second operator would replace the first

24 operator and continue to monitor the conversation.

25 Depending on the quality of the signal received, the conversation

Page 4268

1 would then be reproduced directly into the computer, or if the signal was

2 of a poorer quality, it would be reproduced onto a piece of paper. Very

3 often, with the help of another colleague and a third colleague, perhaps,

4 that is to say, I myself would do this work, if everything was audible, it

5 would be recorded on the computer. If not, then parts of the conversation

6 or words which were inaudible or we did not know what they meant or didn't

7 hear them properly, we would place three dots. So if we didn't know

8 several words, or even a paragraph, we would put asterisks in the middle

9 so that the person reading would know that we had not been able to hear

10 several words or even a whole paragraph, that it would be unintelligible.

11 Q. So if the conversation was audible, it would be recorded from the

12 tape into the computer, and if there was a problem with the

13 understandability or the quality of the transmission, then, from what I

14 understand of your testimony, you would sit with colleagues, you would

15 reduce the conversation on a piece of paper until there was some form of

16 agreement as to its accuracy, and then it would be typed into the

17 computer; is that correct?

18 A. That's correct, yes.

19 Q. What happened to those pieces of paper on which the conversation

20 was recorded?

21 A. Well, it was customary for pieces of paper of that kind to be set

22 fire to. When we had a certain number of them, we would burn them. That

23 was customary in our service.

24 Q. Now, let me then turn my attention to the procedure once again.

25 Were the conversations that had been intercepted recorded in writing soon

Page 4269

1 after or immediately after they had been received?

2 A. If they were very urgent, classed as very urgent information, then

3 it was immediately processed. If it was not very urgent information, then

4 it would also be processed in a short space of time afterwards, if nothing

5 happened after that conversation; that is to say, if there were no other

6 conversations, then that too would be processed.

7 Q. So if it wasn't an urgent conversation, how long after -- and I'm

8 speaking in general terms -- how long after was it that it was reduced to

9 writing?

10 A. Not long. It didn't wait long. Up to one hour.

11 Q. Now, was there an effort by your service to accurately record

12 these conversations, in other words, make sure that each word that had

13 been intercepted was accurately reproduced on the computer?

14 A. It was essential that every word, literally every word be recorded

15 and that it should be audible, properly heard. You couldn't guess because

16 these were serious matters, and anything that was not sufficiently clear,

17 not heard well enough, any word not heard well enough was not recorded.

18 Q. Witness W, how was it that you and your colleagues were able to

19 identify the speakers in the intercepted communications?

20 A. I have to say that we knew some of the speakers very well from the

21 media, we knew their voices. Every citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

22 further afield were well acquainted with their voices. Many of them

23 introduced themselves as well once the connection was established. So

24 they would say, "Good morning. I'm so and so. I need so and so," and

25 that would give us the information we needed about both participants, both

Page 4270

1 parties. Very often there was a mediator in this communication; that is

2 to say, the two parties would know each other but the intermediary would

3 introduce them, so that was another way we learnt who the actors were.

4 Q. In the situation where you could not identify the people who were

5 speaking back and forth, how did you record that on your reports?

6 A. That too happened on several occasions, and we would use "X" and

7 "Y" to denote those individuals.

8 Q. Now, were the written records of the intercepted communications

9 maintained by your agency in the regular course of business?

10 A. Yes. Of course it was our duty to make up an archive, that was

11 standard practice in our service, and to store the information we had

12 arrived at, and that is what we did with these documents as well.

13 Q. Witness W, I'm now going to put before you a number of exhibits,

14 and I'd like to start with Prosecutor's Exhibit 303.

15 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you could have at your disposal

16 Prosecutor's Exhibit 303 through Prosecutor's Exhibit 312. Mr. Usher, if

17 you would first of all place the B/C/S version of Prosecutor's Exhibit 303

18 on the ELMO.

19 Q. Witness W, I'd like you to take a look at Prosecutor's Exhibit

20 303, and let me ask you first of all, is this a document that was prepared

21 by the SDB?

22 A. Yes, it is a document compiled by my department.

23 Q. How do you know that looking at this document? Use the pointer if

24 need be.

25 A. In the heading it says "CSB/SDB," up here, "SDB Tuzla." Then you

Page 4271

1 have the date and then there is a number for evidence which we keep in our

2 archives today, and we have all these registration numbers down. Then

3 there is a sentence which we always used as an introduction to all the

4 conversations, and it was along the lines of this one here.

5 Q. Now, Witness W, at the bottom of this particular exhibit there

6 appear to be a set of numbers, "JN160/JD065." What do they represent?

7 A. Yes, I forgot to say, and that is perhaps the basic piece of

8 information. As a signature, you have the names of people, the codes, the

9 codes of the people who compiled the document. The first one, "JN160,"

10 denotes the man who recorded the conversation, taped the conversation, and

11 the second code, that is to say, "JD065," is the man who reproduced the

12 conversation.

13 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, may I go into private session for just

14 one or two questions, please.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private

16 session, at least for a couple of minutes.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4272

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that we're already in

4 public session.

5 Please continue, Mr. Harmon.

6 MR. HARMON:

7 Q. Witness W, focusing on this particular communication, there are a

8 number of initials that go down the left-hand side indicating the

9 participants in the conversation. Am I correct that "K" stands for Krstic

10 and "X" stands for Lieutenant Colonel Krsmanovic?

11 A. Yes, you're right.

12 Q. I will read this communication into the record, starting at the

13 upper left-hand corner:

14 "CSB/Security Services Centre/-SDB/State Security Service/Tuzla

15 Date: 12 July 1995

16 Number: 552

17 Very urgent

18 On the above date, while monitoring the

19 Zvornik-Vlasenica Radio Relay on frequency

20 785.000 MHz at 0735 hours, we recorded a

21 conversation between someone called Krstic

22 (K) and Lt. Colonel Krsmanovic (X).

23 The conversation is as follows:

24 K: Hello, is that Krsmanovic?

25 X: Yes, go ahead.

Page 4273

1 K: Listen! Write this down!

2 X: Yes.

3 K: Now, Pale, Visegrad, Rogatica, Sokolac,

4 Han Pijesak, Vlasenica, Milici, Bratunac,

5 Zvornik. Now, this, from all these places,

6 50 buses in total are to be at the stadium in

7 Bratunac by 1700 hours.

8 X: At 1700 hours at the Bratunac stadium.

9 K: May very sure this is done. Is that

10 clear?

11 X: Understood.

12 K: Go ahead.

13 JN160/JD065."

14 MR. HARMON: I have finished with this exhibit, Mr. Usher.

15 A. I have just one remark to make.

16 MR. HARMON: Please.

17 A. I apologise. I think that in reading the frequency, you said

18 "705", and the frequency was, in fact, "785".

19 MR. HARMON: If I did make that mistake, thank you for the

20 correction. That's correct.

21 Mr. Usher, I would like to have 304C placed on the ELMO, with the

22 date on the upper left-hand corner visible.

23 Q. Can you see that document, Witness W?

24 A. Yes, I can.

25 Q. And can you tell the Judges, is this a document that was prepared

Page 4274

1 by your unit?

2 A. Yes, it is. This is also a document compiled by my department.

3 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, in the B/C/S version there are two

4 conversations, 557 -- number 557 and 558, and we have only translated 557,

5 so the record is clear.

6 I will read this into the record then, number 557, and I'm only

7 reading that part of this B/C/S version that has been starting with 557.

8 "A conversation between a certain Ognjenovic

9 (O) and a General (G) from the Drina Corps

10 Command in Vlasenica (code name Zlatar) took

11 place on the same day, on the same frequency,

12 on channel 5, at 0843 hours.

13 The conversation proceeded as follows:

14 G: Ognjenovic, what's happening around

15 Jagnic (?). What have you heard?

16 O: As far as I know, they heard here that

17 the Turks are passing through a certain area

18 and that they've found a path through the

19 minefield.

20 G: Okay, right. And has the commander

21 ordered /them/ down in Konjevic Polje what's

22 to be done?

23 O: He ordered them, he ordered these guys

24 down at Palma /code name/ (Zvornik Brigade)

25 what to do and so forth. Both the

Page 4275

1 MUP /Ministry of Interior/ and these guys ...

2 G: Good, to the MUP in Konjevic Polje and

3 Zvornik. Okay, bye."

4 And at the bottom of the B/C/S version, there appears the letters

5 "JN160/JD065".

6 Q. And, Witness W, again the designation "JN160/JD065" is the same as

7 what you previously described, is that correct, the person who heard the

8 conversation and recorded it?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. And looking at this document, can you tell us the date when this

11 conversation was intercepted?

12 A. Yes. It is also the 12th of July, 1995.

13 MR. HARMON: Let me turn to the next exhibit, Witness W.

14 Mr. Usher, if you would kindly place 305 -- just one moment, please.

15 Mr. Usher, if you would place 305B on the ELMO, please.

16 Q. Witness W, will you take a look at Prosecutor's Exhibit 305B, and

17 then I'll ask you some questions about it. Have you had a chance to take

18 a look at that exhibit?

19 A. Yes, I have.

20 Q. Was this an exhibit that was captured by members of your unit?

21 A. Yes, it is the document captured by the members of my unit.

22 Q. On what day?

23 A. On the 12th of -- I think there's a mistake here, because it says

24 "04/1995". I think that's a mistake, because 561, the number 561, it

25 says the 12th of the 4th, "04". That's probably a mistake.

Page 4276

1 Q. How do you know that? Why do you say that?

2 A. Number 561, we know, according to the order, what date was

3 connected to that number. I apologise. What was it I said, the 12th of

4 the 7th? That's probably a mistake. I didn't notice it until now.

5 Q. What date do you believe this document was captured by members of

6 your service?

7 A. I have the exact date. I can check it out. I can check it,

8 because I have a notebook, a diary, which records all the information that

9 came in.

10 Q. Can you refer to your notebook, please, and confirm for us the

11 date of this particular transmission?

12 A. Therefore, it was like this: The date was -- just one moment,

13 please. Let me find it. 561, 561. Just one moment, please. Yes. The

14 12th of July, 1995, I have it here, when the file was formed and when it

15 was sent out.

16 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Witness W. Now, I will read this document

17 into the record, then.

18 "CSB /Security Service Centre/-SDB /State

19 Security Service/ Tuzla."

20 "Date:", as recorded in the original

21 document, "12 April 1995.

22 Very urgent.

23 Number: 561.

24 On the aforementioned date while monitoring

25 Pale Radio Relay, on frequency 785.000 MHz,

Page 4277

1 Channel 5, at 1205 hours, we

2 recorded a conversation between certain

3 Ognjenovic (O) and General Krstic (K).

4 The conversation was as follows:

5 K: I said, are they passing over there?

6 O: No, not near us.

7 K: Then where are they?

8 O: We are not sure. They passed down there

9 and ran into a minefield in Duboki Potok, as

10 you perhaps already know that. And how they

11 came back, one group of 200 of them returned,

12 but we don't know whether they passed or

13 returned.

14 K: Are there any remains of the dead in the

15 place where they went through?

16 O: Our guys didn't manage to get down there,

17 since there are mines laid by our right

18 neighbour. We don't have plans, so we didn't

19 go down there.

20 K: Collect the data as much as you can, call

21 the units on the lines, particularly the ones

22 on the right wing. Have them investigate

23 everything, and then we'll get in touch.

24 O: I don't know if you're going to be able

25 to get in touch with Radika up there, so let

Page 4278

1 me put you through.

2 K: Go ahead and try.

3 The conversation continues between Krstic and

4 Krsmanovic (X).

5 K: What happened with the buses?

6 X: They should arrive in two minutes.

7 K: Have them start immediately.

8 X: Okay. We'll order them to move as soon

9 as they arrive.

10 K: Do you understand, to leave immediately.

11 X: ...

12 K: Go on.

13 JN160/JD073."

14 Q. Again, Witness W, the "JN160/JD073" represents what you've told us

15 previously; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. HARMON: Now I'll turn to the next exhibit, which is

18 Prosecutor's Exhibit 306. Mr. Usher, if you would kindly place 306/C on

19 the ELMO.

20 Your Honours, there is a conversation that is 562 and a portion of

21 564 on the B/C/S. We have only translated the other conversation, 563,

22 that's found on the original B/C/S version.

23 Q. First of all, Witness W, can you identify this document as being a

24 document that was prepared by members of your service?

25 A. Yes, that is correct. It is our document.

Page 4279

1 Q. And on what date was this document prepared?

2 A. On the 12th of July, 1995.

3 Q. I will read this document into the record. I'm reading from

4 306/A:

5 "CSB/Security Services Centre/-SDB/State Security Service/Tuzla

6 Date: 12 July 1995

7 No. 563

8 On the aforementioned day while monitoring

9 Zvornik-Vlasenica RR direction on frequency

10 785.000 MHz, Channel 11, at 12:20, we

11 recorded a conversation between two

12 unidentified men (X and Y).

13 The conversation went as follows:

14 X: What are we going to do about fuel?

15 Y: I don't know. I told Miletic.

16 X: Yes.

17 Y: He doesn't know either.

18 X: Those trucks are leaving from Ilijas,

19 Pale, Visegrad, Zvornik, Sokolac, Rogatica.

20 They are all coming here now.

21 Y: Do you have any orders from up there?

22 X: I have it from Krsto, where he ...

23 ordered directly. That request went up there

24 and I am thinking that it can't be 200

25 litres. It is 200 tonnes. And this morning

Page 4280

1 I /or he/ left seven tonnes there for this

2 equipment and two tonnes in Zvornik. That is

3 nine. There is no more.

4 Y: Call Mile.

5 X: I'll call him right away."

6 All right. We will now turn to the next document, which is

7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 307.

8 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, again we'll follow the same procedure, if

9 you would kindly put 307C, the B/C/S version, on the ELMO.

10 Again, Your Honours, this is a document in the original B/C/S that

11 has two identified conversations, number 570 and 571, and the attached

12 translations only are to number 570.

13 Q. Witness W, you've had an opportunity to take a look at this

14 document. Can you first of all tell me, is this a document that was

15 prepared by your service?

16 A. [No interpretation]

17 MR. HARMON: I didn't get a translation of that.

18 Q. Let me ask the question again. Is this a document, Prosecutor's

19 Exhibit 307, is this a document that was prepared by your service?

20 A. Yes, it is our document.

21 Q. On what date was this document prepared?

22 A. This document was also prepared on the 12th of July, 1995.

23 Q. I will read into the record this document.

24 "Tuzla CSB/Security Services

25 Centre/-SDB/State Security Service/

Page 4281

1 Date: 12 July 1995

2 Number: 570

3 On the above-mentioned day, intercepting the

4 Zvornik-Vlasenica RR /radio-relay/ route on

5 frequency 785.000, channel 5, we registered

6 at 1250 hours a conversation between General

7 Mladic (M) and an unidentified male person

8 (X).

9 The conversation proceeded as follows:

10 X: Go ahead, General.

11 M: Have these buses and trucks left?

12 X: They have.

13 M: When?

14 X: Ten minutes ago.

15 M: Good, excellent. Continue to monitor the

16 situation. Don't let small groups of them

17 sneak in. They've all capitulated and

18 surrendered and we'll evacuate them

19 all - those who want to and those who don't

20 want to.

21 X: I understand, General.

22 M: Don't issue any statements and don't

23 interrupt them over the /?radio/

24 station. We'll open a corridor towards

25 Kladanj.

Page 4282

1 X: ...

2 M: Indeed, let it pass there. Take a patrol

3 of ours to wait on the road and remove the

4 mines and obstacles ... leave the territory.

5 X: Yes, General.

6 JN160/JD073."

7 Once again, Witness W, those numbers at the end stand for what you

8 have previously testified; is that correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. I'll now turn to the next exhibit, which is 308.

11 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, kindly put 308 on the ELMO.

12 Q. Witness W, is this a document that was prepared by your service?

13 A. Yes, that also is a document prepared by my service.

14 Q. When I say and I have said in the past, "is this a document

15 prepared by your service," what I mean specifically by that question in

16 respect of this document, the previous documents, and the documents to

17 come, is this a document of an intercepted communication that was captured

18 at the mountain top (redacted), where you were monitoring enemy

19 communications?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. Then I will read this document into the record.

22 "Tuzla CSB/Security Services

23 Centre/-SDB/State Security Service/

24 Date: 13 July 1995

25 Number: 597

Page 4283

1 On the above-mentioned day, intercepting at

2 the Zvornik-Vlasenica RR /radio-relay/ route

3 on frequency 785.000 MHz, channel 3, at 2035

4 hours, we registered a conversation between

5 Major Obrenovic (O) and an unidentified

6 General (G).

7 The conversation proceeded as follows:

8 O: General, sir, is that you?

9 G: Yes.

10 O: It's Major Obrenovic.

11 G: Greetings.

12 O: Listen, those ambushes I've been setting

13 up over there on the wide road and on part of

14 Glodansko Brdo - they just called me two

15 minutes ago, there's a large column of Turks,

16 three continuous kilometres long, from the

17 school in Glodi.

18 G: Wait! Listen, you can't talk like that

19 on the phone. Call Mane, gather everybody

20 and send them all up there right away.

21 O: Mane's?

22 G: Yes.

23 O: Well, that's why I'm calling you.

24 G: Tell them right away to gather and drive

25 up there. As soon as possible.

Page 4284

1 O: All right, understood.

2 G: Come on chief, don't let anything

3 through.

4 O: We'll stop /them/.

5 G: OK, take care.

6 JN160/JD065."

7 Once again, Witness W, do the number designations at the bottom of

8 the page relate to what you have previously testified about?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. We'll now turn our attention to the next exhibit, which is

11 Prosecutor's Exhibit 309.

12 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, once again kindly place the B/C/S version

13 on the ELMO.

14 Q. Examining the B/C/S version, Witness W, can you tell us whether

15 this is a document of intercepted communications that were collected by

16 your unit operating from the mountain top that you've previously

17 identified?

18 A. Yes, that is our document.

19 Q. On what date was this particular communication intercepted?

20 A. The messages 605, 606, I can't see whether there are any others,

21 were downloaded on the 14th of July, 1995.

22 MR. HARMON: Once again, Mr. President and Your Honours, we have

23 only translated the conversation 606 in the B/C/S. On that same page

24 there is conversation 605 and a portion of 607.

25 Q. I will now read into the record number 606. Actually, Witness W,

Page 4285

1 would you kindly read into the record the portion of the document that is

2 before you in B/C/S.

3 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, you would have to move this down so the

4 witness can see it. The portion under number 605, there's a small

5 paragraph under 605, starting with the word "navedenog."

6 A. You're talking about conversation 605?

7 Q. I'll withdraw the question. I had some confusion on this.

8 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, will you return to 606, please.

9 Q. I will proceed in reading this into the record, then.

10 "Number: 606

11 On the above-mentioned day, intercepting the

12 Pale RR /radio-relay/ route on frequency

13 836.000, channel 13, we registered at 0805

14 hours a conversation between General Mladic

15 (M) and an unidentified male person (X).

16 The conversation proceeded as follows:

17 M: Hello, friend.

18 X: Good morning, brother. How are you?

19 M: Fine, fine. You bet.

20 X: A man can't get away from you in the

21 newspapers, both foreign and local.

22 M: I can't help it. (laughs)

23 X: That's the way. Listen, I'll be brief

24 and to the point: I was here just now with a

25 narrow circle, you know, of friends here, and

Page 4286

1 now it depends on you /as printed/. Are you

2 going to be there these days?

3 M: Well, I am after Sunday.

4 X: But not today and tomorrow?

5 M: I'm busy, but I am /here/ today if you

6 can come over.

7 X: You'll be there late in the afternoon?

8 M: Until 1500 hours and then I'm going to

9 the field. I'll be busy for two or three

10 days and then I'm coming back.

11 X: And where's Pepo?

12 M: Pepo is in the field.

13 The rest of the conversation was not interesting."

14 I've concluded reading that particular document, and we'll now

15 turn our attention to 310, Prosecutor's Exhibit 310.

16 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, kindly place the B/C/S version of this

17 document on the ELMO. This is a document, Your Honours, that has

18 conversations numbered 605, 606, and 607 on the document, and we've only

19 translated number 607.

20 Q. Looking at the B/C/S document, Witness W, can you tell me if this

21 was a document containing captured communications from the enemy that was

22 prepared by your service?

23 A. Yes, we prepared it.

24 Q. On what date did you prepare it?

25 A. You would have to move it up so I can see the beginning. Yes, the

Page 4287

1 14th of July, 1995.

2 Q. I will now read into the record the translation of the

3 conversation number 607.

4 "Number: 607

5 /handwritten:/ The pursuit

6 On the same day, intercepting the Pale

7 RR /radio-relay/ route on frequency 836.000

8 MHz, channel 5, at /?0810/ hours, we

9 registered a conversation between two

10 unidentified male persons (X and Y).

11 The conversation proceeded as follows:

12 X: Have a lot of their soldiers escaped to

13 the woods?

14 Y: Well, a lot did, the motherfuckers.

15 X: You don't say.

16 Y: Yeah, down there around Kasaba and

17 Konjevic Polje. It's a real fuck-up now to

18 chase them all out.

19 X: Are they active or is it just mopping up

20 that's going on?

21 Y: Well, there's a little bit of

22 everything. There are those who are mostly

23 surrendering but some are still resisting.

24 X: Uh-huh, it's not too dangerous?

25 Y: Well, fuck it, this road here, from

Page 4288

1 Zvornik towards us, is closed. It's not

2 safe, they opened fire just yesterday at one

3 of our Puchs /jeep/.

4 X: Was there any damage?

5 Y: No. A policeman was seriously wounded,

6 but overall it's good. The road will stay

7 closed until further notice.

8 X: And have the colleagues arrived, the ones

9 yesterday?

10 Y: Radakovic said he's expecting them

11 today. You mean these signalmen of ours?

12 X: I meant the guy who went yesterday to

13 Bijeljina.

14 Y: Well, I don't know if he was able to get

15 through. Radakovic told me that two captains

16 and a staff sergeant are arriving today. But

17 I don't know what happened because the road

18 was closed. Just military vehicles, the

19 'special purposes' ones, can pass.

20 X: So would you say that this area is sealed

21 off?

22 Y: Well, yes.

23 X: They don't have anywhere to escape?

24 Y: Well, that shouldn't happen. It's mostly

25 under control, although it's woods out

Page 4289

1 there ...

2 X: In kilometres approximately, how many

3 square kilometres is that?

4 Y: I can't tell you now exactly.

5 X: Is it basically five by five?

6 Y: Yes, yes, something like that. They

7 fucking know that terrain, they've spread out

8 in the woods and it's very difficult.

9 X: And do they have any food up there?

10 Y: Hardly anything.

11 X: They can sleep now wherever they want?

12 Y: Well, they can't go on for long like

13 that. They can for a short time, it's just

14 that they can fuck us up somewhere.

15 X: Yeah, they can.

16 JN160/JD065."

17 That ends my reading of this document. Again, Witness W, the

18 numbers "JN160/JD065," does that represent what you previously testified

19 about?

20 A. Yes, they mean the same.

21 MR. HARMON: I'll turn now, Witness W, to the next exhibit. It's

22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 311. Again, Mr. Usher, kindly place the B/C/S

23 version of 311 on the ELMO.

24 Your Honours, again this a document which contains multiple

25 conversations in B/C/S. We have only translated the conversation numbered

Page 4290

1 610.

2 Q. Witness W, is this a document that was prepared by your service,

3 and does it contain the captured enemy communications?

4 A. Yes, it is also a conversation that we intercepted.

5 Q. On what date?

6 A. Could you show me, please? Yes. The 14th of July, 1995.

7 MR. HARMON: I will read this into the record.

8 "Number 610.

9 On the above date, while monitoring a Radio

10 Relay Zvornik - Vlasenica on frequency

11 785.000 MHz, Ch. 3, at 0910 hours, we

12 recorded a conversation between the Drina

13 Corps Commander, Milenko Zivanovic (M) and

14 Major Jokic (J).

15 J: General, just to inform you, I just have

16 some information about the Turks.

17 M: What?

18 J: They were crushed on Velja Glava and now

19 there is a huge group moving towards the

20 Drina, according to intelligence, towards

21 Zljebac - Mladevac. The group is huge,

22 absolutely enormous.

23 M: How big is the group?

24 J: It's huge. Ever since I heard this

25 information I can't fucking believe it.

Page 4291

1 M: Who told you that?

2 J: Thousands of 'em. Our intelligence

3 officer sent us an info.

4 M: Which intelligence officer?

5 J: Dusko Vukotic.

6 M: Where are you calling from now?

7 J: From here, as a duty officer.

8 M: And where are they headed?

9 J: According to our intelligence organs they

10 spread out from Velja Glava, they think in

11 this direction, so now they're going back

12 towards Mladevac and towards Zljepce over

13 there to Novo Selo, you know?

14 M: Yes, yes, Mladevac. Good. Good. I know

15 that.

16 J: Yes, Kula Grad, to the left of Kula Grad.

17 M: Mane needs to be informed immediately.

18 (Mane, a MUP employee, most likely a chief).

19 J: Whom should I inform?

20 M: The Zvornik Public Security Centre.

21 They're there now. The army is doing other

22 work at the moment.

23 J: The Chief of Staff, Obrenovic, is coming

24 now so we'll take steps immediately.

25 M: Mane should finish that off for you

Page 4292

1 because Mane has policemen in Konjevic Polje

2 and Zvornik, and we are not talking about

3 such a large number of people, they're

4 lying.

5 J: Is that so?

6 M: Take care.

7 JD073/JD065."

8 May I have just a moment, Mr. President. My colleague has passed

9 me a note.

10 My colleague has brought to my attention there appears to be two

11 sentences that have not been translated on to the English version of 610,

12 and on the B/C/S version, 311/B, it appears that the first two sentences

13 at the bottom of that page have not been translated at least on to the

14 English version. I think I can read the first sentence in B/C/S. It

15 appears to say: "Hello, Major Jokic." The second sentence I cannot read,

16 but we will go back to the Language Service Section with this particular

17 exhibit and submit a more complete and revised version of this.

18 Witness W, now let me turn to the last exhibit in this series. It

19 is Prosecutor's Exhibit 312.

20 Mr. Usher, if you would show this to the witness, because the

21 reproduction, at least my reproduction, is not very clear. Let him

22 inspect it first, and then it can be placed on the ELMO.

23 Mr. Usher, please place that on the ELMO.

24 Q. Witness W, is this a document of a recorded intercepted

25 communication that was captured by your service?

Page 4293

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And was this captured -- strike that. On what day was this

3 communication captured?

4 A. I can't see it very well on this copy. I can't even see the

5 number quite well, whether it is "664". If it is, I could check in my

6 diary regarding the date. But most probably it is the 16th of July, 1995,

7 as far as can be discerned from this copy.

8 MR. HARMON: All right. Let me -- may I have just a moment.

9 Q. Witness W, I'm going to see if I can get a better copy of this.

10 I'll ask you a question after the break. We'll try to get a better copy

11 of this. In the meantime, we'll reserve that question, and let me pursue

12 this.

13 Looking at this document, are you able to see whether this was a

14 document that was, in fact, prepared by your service?

15 A. Yes, it is obviously a document prepared by my service.

16 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, since the witness has not identified

17 the document number or the date, I'm reluctant to read in the

18 translation. So if we could have a break, at which point I will endeavour

19 to get a better copy for the witness, so then I can proceed. This is my

20 last document, by the way, and then I will conclude my examination of the

21 witness.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Harmon. We were

23 waiting for the end of the presentation of these documents, but we

24 understand. So we're going to have a break, a half-hour break.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.

Page 4294

1 --- On resuming at 1.15 p.m.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Harmon, let's continue.

3 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Mr. President and Your Honours.

4 We have resolved the issue. I have a better photocopy of the

5 exhibit I had intended to show the witness earlier; it is 312/C bis.

6 If you could show that, Mr. Usher, first to the witness so he can

7 identify the date and the number of the intercepted communication, we'll

8 place that on the ELMO and proceed.

9 Q. Witness W, I apologise for presenting to you earlier a poor

10 reproduction of this exhibit, but now that you've had an opportunity to

11 examine it, let me ask you first of all, is this a communication that was

12 intercepted by members of your unit?

13 A. Yes. That is the text of the message that my unit registered.

14 Q. On what day was this particular message intercepted?

15 A. On the 16th of July, 1995.

16 Q. Then I will read this translation of 312/C bis into the record.

17 "CSB/Security Services Centre/-SDB/State

18 Security Service/Tuzla

19 Date: 16 July 1995

20 Very urgent

21 No: 664

22 On the above date, monitoring the Pale Radio

23 Relay on frequency 836.000 MHz, Channel 13,

24 at 1615 hrs, we recorded a conversation

25 between Main Staff Duty Officer and General

Page 4295

1 Mladic, who was inaudible.

2 The conversation was as follows:

3 : Good day General, Sir.

4 : Well, it's like this. I've just sent a

5 telegramme to Toso. Well, the President

6 called a short while ago and said that he had

7 been informed by Karisik that Pandurevic had

8 arranged passage for the Muslims over to that

9 territory. Since I have no communication

10 with him, I asked the duty officer to

11 urgently connect me with him: to /?have

12 him/ send me a telegram with that

13 information and not to do anything without

14 authorisation until he receives our answer.

15 Now I'm waiting for them to call me because

16 Pandurevic hasn't called for the last

17 four ...

18 : Yes, of course. No, but there are both

19 fighters and civilians.

20 : Nobody is playing around, that's just the

21 information we got. I spoke to Krsto down

22 there. He says it's going well but I ... he

23 didn't say how far they got, but he says it's

24 going well.

25 : According to Maric, yes ... is solved.

Page 4296

1 : This morning, last night, they captured

2 equipment at four UN check points, down in

3 Zepa, took them to the base, confiscated the

4 equipment.

5 : Good, there were no other major problems,

6 up on Majevica there was something but that

7 has been resolved.

8 : Bye.

9 JD073/JD065."

10 Witness W, I have just a couple of questions about this particular

11 conversation. The first is: This conversation is only a one-sided

12 conversation that you were able to intercept; is that correct?

13 A. Yes. We just heard one of the speakers, and we wrote it down that

14 way.

15 Q. The numbers that appear at the end of this document,

16 "JD073/JD065," are those code numbers for members of your unit?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. I've concluded with that document.

19 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, I'd like to return very briefly to

20 Prosecutor's Exhibit 306, which, in the form it was presented to Your

21 Honours this morning, omitted the second page. So I have had a new

22 document prepared; it is Exhibit 306/C bis.

23 Mr. Usher, if you would put the last page of that document on the

24 ELMO, and particularly what I would like to have on the ELMO, Mr. Usher,

25 are the numbers that appear at the bottom of the second page.

Page 4297

1 Q. Witness W, at the bottom of this now-complete document -- you've

2 earlier testified about it -- do there appear to be two sets of numbers on

3 the bottom?

4 A. I didn't understand the question.

5 Q. At the bottom of this document that is now complete, do the

6 numbers "JN160/JD073" appear?

7 A. Yes, yes, they do appear.

8 Q. And that, consistent with your previous testimony, indicates the

9 identity of persons involved with this particular communication; is that

10 correct?

11 A. That's right, yes.

12 MR. HARMON: With that, Mr. President and Your Honours, I've

13 concluded my direct examination. Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

15 Mr. Harmon.

16 Mr. Petrusic. Witness W, you're now going to be answering

17 questions put to you by Mr. Petrusic. Please go ahead.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

19 Q. First of all, let me say good afternoon to you, Witness W.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. In performing your duties, you worked in the same building where

22 the members of the army were located, the Bosnia-Herzegovina army, for

23 anti-electronic warfare and reconnaissance; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. Did you proceed according to the same rules?

Page 4298

1 A. I don't know which rules you mean.

2 Q. Were there any written rules or regulations which you, that is to

3 say, your service, were duty-bound to abide by in the performance of your

4 duties?

5 A. No, apart from the housekeeping rules of conduct.

6 Q. Do you know whether rules of that kind existed in units -- in the

7 units of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army?

8 A. I think that it is clear to you that I am a member of the SDB, and

9 I don't know what rules they used or whether they had any.

10 Q. Did you, or the service to which you belonged, in that location

11 keep a diary of any kind, of daily orders or anything of that kind?

12 A. We were not a military organisation. That is typical of a

13 military organisation. It is typical for the service to which I belong

14 that all the papers on which the messages are recorded, after use, after

15 they've been sent on, be destroyed, especially as we were located in

16 premises not owned by us.

17 Q. In view of the service that you belonged to, did you have a work

18 plan of any kind from that service?

19 A. Nothing specific in concrete terms. At the beginning, I described

20 what we did and what our basic tasks were.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

22 microphone. We're having difficulty following him.

23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation].

24 Q. Can you tell us, how many sets of equipment for interception did

25 your service dispose of?

Page 4299

1 A. Yes. We had three sets of equipment. However, we also had some

2 other receivers which were able, without a complete set, to receive

3 certain waves and frequencies.

4 Q. [No interpretation]

5 A. What was interesting for us, of course, we did.

6 Q. Did your service --

7 MR. HARMON: Excuse me. There appears on the transcript -- excuse

8 me, Mr. Petrusic. There appears on the transcript "[No interpretation]"

9 for one of your questions, which makes the record incomplete.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter wasn't able to hear. There was

11 something wrong with the microphone.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Harmon, thank

13 you very much. It is page 90, line 22. You have the answer, but no

14 question. The question has not been recorded in the LiveNote. [Page 80].

15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation].

16 Q. "Were the frequencies memorised," was the question.

17 A. Do I need to answer that question again?

18 Q. Yes. Please repeat your answer.

19 A. Yes. The frequencies were memorised, those that we found

20 interesting.

21 Q. Witness W, the Prosecutor asked you in detail about the procedure

22 of reception of messages, their transcription. But what the Defence is

23 interested in, is the reception of that message and what happened to it

24 after that or, rather, how it was typed into the computer.

25 A. As I have already recounted, the way in which a message was

Page 4300

1 received, recorded, and reproduced. It is processed in the computer,

2 encrypted, and then forwarded to the base; that is, to the headquarters.

3 Q. Was it forwarded to headquarters by means of computer?

4 A. Yes, of course. Excuse me. What do you mean when you say "by

5 computer methods"? It was processed in the computer and forwarded with

6 the help of a modem.

7 Q. So it was forwarded by fax modem?

8 A. I wouldn't like to talk about the way in which messages were

9 transmitted.

10 Q. I won't insist on that, but was that method, the one you do not

11 wish to talk about, used from the 12th of July onwards during that period?

12 A. Mostly.

13 Q. Can you tell us when you were supplied with this computer

14 equipment?

15 A. Let me put it this way: Another department I headed in 1992

16 already had a computer, so the computer in this facility was not available

17 from the beginning, but I received it. I couldn't tell you the exact

18 date, but that can be established on the basis of the encrypted files,

19 because in the period when I didn't have a computer of my own, the

20 information was forwarded through the communications system of the 2nd

21 Corps, to the command of the 2nd Corps, and then from the 2nd Corps

22 Command, information was forwarded to the headquarters of my service on a

23 disk.

24 Q. When one of your messages was forwarded in the method you have

25 described, do you know whether there was a reception stamp on that

Page 4301

1 message, a stamp confirming receipt?

2 A. I don't understand what kind of stamps you're referring to.

3 Q. When you forwarded a message to your superior service, did it

4 register somewhere that it had received that message?

5 A. You see, that also enters into the question of the method of

6 transmission of information, but everyone knows that information has to be

7 registered upon reception.

8 Q. So you had some sort of confirmation that the information had been

9 received.

10 A. Of course.

11 Q. On the Uher tape recorder tapes, you have recorded tapes. What

12 happened to those tapes?

13 A. I think your question was not phrased properly. The Uher tapes

14 did not contain cassettes but conversations, taped conversations.

15 Q. Thank you for correcting me. So you tape a cassette, that is, you

16 tape conversations on a cassette. What happens to that cassette?

17 A. It depends on the type of conversation, its importance, and other

18 characteristics which would determine how it would be kept, if at all.

19 Q. If they are the conversations that we heard read out today and

20 which were read by the Prosecutor and which you confirmed, have those

21 conversations been preserved on tape?

22 A. I could not answer that question. I think that it is a sensitive

23 question and I do not wish to answer it.

24 Q. Is it because you don't know or because you don't want to answer

25 it?

Page 4302

1 A. I have already said what I mean.

2 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, perhaps we could go into a private

3 session and Your Honours could explore this with the witness.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We are going into private

5 session, please.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4303

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that we are in public

19 session, so you may continue, Mr. Petrusic.

20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Exhibit 303/C of the Prosecution which you confirmed -- and it is

22 a conversation between Krsmanovic and a certain Krstic -- on which grounds

23 do you identify that certain Krstic if he did not introduce himself, nor

24 did the other participant in the conversation call him by name?

25 A. An excellent question. You see yourself that this is not the very

Page 4304

1 beginning of the conversation, and usually what happens is, in that few

2 seconds until the button is released of the pause, one, two, or three

3 words are uttered, and obviously those words were spoken. Otherwise,

4 certainly the words "a certain Krstic" would not be there.

5 Another matter, and I shall assist you again, is that in this

6 period of time we were not focusing on this channel intensively because we

7 knew that this channel was covered by the army. So when we had nothing

8 else to do, we too would monitor this channel, together with them.

9 Q. Witness W, you mean that this frequency, 785, that this frequency

10 was covered both by you and the army?

11 A. Well, in those pauses that we had on our frequencies.

12 Q. Witness W, reviewing these conversations that were shown to you

13 today, I note that they mostly refer to this frequency of 785.000.

14 A. What do you want of me?

15 Q. You said that you didn't use it frequently, but the conversations

16 shown to you --

17 A. They are very few in number.

18 Q. But would you agree with me, then, that the conversations shown to

19 you in the course of the day were captured from the frequency 785.000?

20 A. Of course. I confirmed that several times.

21 Q. Witness W, it seems to me that you still have in front of you

22 Exhibit 303/C. In the header, after the date and the number, there is the

23 sentence: "On the above date, while monitoring the Radio Relay

24 Zvornik-Vlasenica on frequency 785.000 ..." et cetera, you recorded a

25 conversation between these two participants.

Page 4305

1 My question is: If one of the participants was outside the

2 Zvornik-Vlasenica direction, can you intercept him?

3 A. You mean if one of the parties is calling from Pale, for

4 instance?

5 Q. If one of the participants is outside the radio relay

6 Zvornik-Vlasenica, can you record that conversation?

7 A. Technically speaking, and that is the only way I can view things,

8 I receive the signal on that segment of the route, conditionally

9 speaking. So everything I register on that direction and I consider to be

10 interesting, I take it down.

11 Q. Of course, when you're talking about the direction, you are

12 talking about the radio relay direction.

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. All the evidence shown to you or, rather, the conversations shown

15 to you mainly relate to the Zvornik-Vlasenica radio relay. So there are

16 two destinations or, rather, two locations.

17 In Exhibit 305/B, you begin your report with the same sentence:

18 "On the above-mentioned date, while monitoring Pale Radio Relay ..."

19 without the other location of the radio relay direction being indicated.

20 A. You've obviously found a mistake in the written report, an error,

21 and I should like to clarify something.

22 On a radio relay route, we can hear the complete telephone

23 communication taking place along that route regardless of where the

24 participants may be at that particular moment.

25 What does that mean? It means that a participant in the

Page 4306

1 communication may be from Bijeljina.

2 Q. So you say this is an error?

3 A. Which?

4 Q. Where you just mentioned the radio relay route Pale, without

5 indicating the other location.

6 A. Your Honours, I'm trying to explain things, that frequency is not

7 linked to locations. A frequency is the route that we intercepted, and

8 along that route, at the intercepted wavelengths, we captured

9 conversations which may have been spoken in Rogatica or Bijeljina, and as

10 far as I can remember there was some conversations coming from Serbia all

11 along that one and the same route.

12 Q. So in this case, as you said, that was an error.

13 A. Of course. This is an error on the part of the person who was

14 typing this report. Frequency 785 determines the route that was

15 intercepted. Pale, Zvornik, Vlasenica, et cetera, those are not

16 determinant. So in this specific case, "Pale" is the error.

17 Q. It wasn't me who said it was an error, you said it was an error

18 and I repeated it.

19 But, sir, we're talking about one and the same frequency here,

20 both when we're talking about the Pale route and the Zvornik-Vlasenica

21 route, and that is 785.000.

22 A. I'm afraid you don't understand me. I am claiming or, rather,

23 noting and stating that in Exhibit 305/B the word "Pale" has been

24 erroneously written, because it should be "the Radio Relay Route

25 Zvornik-Vlasenica." That is how we called it. So here a substitution was

Page 4307

1 made. It is the frequency that determines the direction at that

2 particular moment in time.

3 Q. Talking about Exhibit 305, where you identify General Krstic as a

4 participant in the conversation, whom again the other participant does not

5 identify in the course of the conversation, was the same method of

6 identification used that you described with respect to Exhibit 303/C, and

7 that conversation was one between Krsmanovic and Krstic?

8 A. Not necessarily. Some were -- halfway through the

9 examination-in-chief by the Prosecution, I explained the way in which we

10 recognised voices. Maybe 1073, the operator, recognised the participant

11 by his voice.

12 Q. In these two exhibits, 305/B and 303/C, we have the same person

13 listening in, intercepting the conversation. In 303/C, he describes him

14 as a certain Krstic, and 305/B, as General Krstic. So it is the same

15 operator and I think it is the same date, the 12th of July. There is a

16 few hours' difference between 7.35 and 12.05 when the second conversation

17 was intercepted.

18 Can you tell us, if the message was intercepted by the same

19 person, is it possible that in one case he describes him as "a certain"

20 and in the second case as a specific person, that is, as "General Krstic"?

21 A. Something that you should know is that in these two conversations,

22 there's 1065 and 1073, two different reproducers; that's one point. The

23 second point, the person who is recording and the person who is

24 reproducing are physically in the same room, so even if that did happen so

25 quickly, it explains why there was no dilemma in the second conversation.

Page 4308

1 There are several methods, as I have explained, for the

2 recognition of voices, and I don't think I should repeat them. I have

3 also explained that there are sound recordings which do not start from the

4 very beginning. The first sentence was spoken, for instance: "This is

5 General Krstic. Give me so and so." That first sentence is not recorded,

6 and there are such recordings with that first sentence missing, if you're

7 following me.

8 Q. In Exhibit 308/C --

9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to leave the

10 exhibits for the time being.

11 Q. -- by hand we see in the upper right-hand corner, as far as I was

12 able to decipher it, it says "Search for civilians -- pursuit of

13 civilians." Could you tell us whether you know who wrote that down, on

14 what occasion, why and when?

15 A. Personally, I believe that that has absolutely nothing to do with

16 the reproduction of conversations, and I would rather not comment on it.

17 Q. The same words can be found on Document 310/C.

18 A. My answer is the same.

19 Q. Just a moment, please. I apologise. On Document 310/C, in the

20 middle -- at the top of the page, it says "pursuit" again. No, it says

21 "capture of civilians," I'm sorry, at the top of the page. And in the

22 middle of the page, it says "pursuit" in handwriting. My question is: is

23 that your handwriting? Did you write that?

24 A. I have given my answer. I think that that has absolutely nothing

25 to do with reproduction.

Page 4309

1 Q. On Document 309/C -- so with reference to this document, 309/C,

2 your answer is the same?

3 A. I have no reason to change my answer.

4 Q. Will you tell me, please, sir, whether this photocopy of these

5 documents -- are they true to the original?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On the original documents themselves, are these words written

8 there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. We have one more document that I'd like to show with the same

11 contents. This is 311/B. I assume that your answer is the same. Is it?

12 For purposes of the transcript, in the right-hand side of the

13 page, towards the end of the page, it says "pursuit".

14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness has not

15 answered the question. I am waiting for an answer.

16 A. Sir, as far as I understood you, you just noted that in the

17 right-hand corner it says the word "pursuit". You didn't ask a question.

18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation].

19 Q. I'm asking you whether you wrote that or someone else in your

20 service subordinate to you.

21 A. I have already stated my answer and do not consider that that

22 influences the quality or the aspect of the conversation itself.

23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that completes my

24 cross-examination. Thank you.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

Page 4310

1 Mr. Petrusic.

2 Mr. Harmon, do you have any additional questions?

3 MR. HARMON: I do, Mr. President. Thank you.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Harmon:

6 Q. Witness W, let me start with Exhibit 303. You were asked by my

7 colleague Mr. Petrusic a question about how it is that you could identify

8 someone called Krstic in this conversation when the name "Krstic" is not

9 mentioned anywhere in the text. And as I understood your answer, and I

10 would appreciate your clarifying this for me, when the conversation was

11 being intercepted, initially the tape recorder that captured the

12 conversation was not on, and between the point in time when the

13 conversation was first heard by the intercept operator and the time it

14 took to depress the tape recorder, a certain portion of the conversation

15 was omitted from the tape. Do I understand that correctly?

16 A. Yes, sir, you understand that correctly. That did happen on

17 occasion, and I warned of that in a portion of my testimony. I said that

18 these were very serious matters and that in all cases, when we were not

19 absolutely sure who we were dealing with, we would always place the letter

20 "X" or "Y" to denote that individual. Similarly, if we were not 100

21 per cent certain of a letter, we would place a question mark next to the

22 name. I hope that from reading all these documents, that you have been

23 able to realise that all we did was serious work and that it was profound

24 work as well. Thank you. That's my answer.

25 Q. Let me stay with this particular document, and let me put myself

Page 4311

1 in the shoes of the person who is monitoring the conversation, who hears

2 the conversation. Let me ask you for your observations on this

3 conversation. Is this a long conversation, if you can tell from just

4 looking at the text?

5 A. The conversation was not long. Therefore, the conversation is

6 short.

7 Q. With an intercept operator who hears a conversation and knows that

8 he is a little late in capturing all the conversation, in other words, is

9 a little late in depressing the button, what steps, if any, are taken to

10 record or identify the speakers in the initial omitted sentence of the

11 conversation? Were any steps taken at all?

12 A. Yes. Let me put it this way: The operator, when the conversation

13 starts, can lose a split second of time, and when he releases the stop

14 button, in releasing the stop button he has already heard the

15 participants. However, and straightaway at that very same moment he

16 records the participants, whether we know who they are or not; that is to

17 say, whether they have introduced themselves or not, whether they are

18 known or not known to the operator.

19 At that very same moment, we record the time the conversation

20 starts. At the same time, we also record the numbers on the tape recorder

21 so that we can go back and reproduce the conversation from the tape.

22 Q. So, generally speaking, when an operator hears a conversation and

23 a party is identified, the first step, I take it, is to depress the button

24 on the tape recorder, and the second step is to attempt to record the

25 missing portions or the identities of the speakers, if that's possible.

Page 4312

1 Is that correct?

2 A. That's correct. That is precisely the order. We record the

3 identity of the party, if we know who that is or whether this was stated,

4 so we record the time of the conversation, the numbers from the meter, and

5 afterwards we record the frequency, the channel on which the conversation

6 took place. Of course, all this is linked up to the date.

7 MR. HARMON: Let me change the topic.

8 My colleague asked you a series of questions about the

9 Zvornik-Vlasenica radio frequency, 785 megahertz, and if I could have the

10 witness shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 139.

11 Mr. Usher, if you could place on the ELMO the lower left quarter

12 of this document. If you would raise it just a little more, please.

13 Raise it up, please, Mr. Usher. That's fine. Thank you very much.

14 Q. Now, have you seen this document before coming to court,

15 Witness W?

16 A. Yes, I have.

17 Q. Do you see the communications route that used 785.000 megahertz on

18 this document, and could you point it out to the Judges, please?

19 A. I think that's the route.

20 Q. Witness W, do you see a line that goes from the location Panorama

21 and goes up towards Zlatar, and there are some numbers midway between

22 those two locations specifically saying "785.000 megahertz"? If you would

23 move your pointer up. No, Witness.

24 MR. HARMON: May I approach the witness and just point on the

25 exhibit to what I'm referring to.

Page 4313

1 For the record, Mr. President and Your Honours, I've indicated on

2 Prosecutor's Exhibit 139 the numbers "785.000 megahertz" midway between

3 the Zlatar notation and the Panorama location, the Panorama location being

4 the centre of the radiating lines going out.

5 Q. Witness W, can you -- what does this "785.000 megahertz" that I've

6 pointed out to you indicate?

7 A. The frequency 785, it is 785 megahertz, and it denotes the

8 frequency of the route or the bearer of the signal who, within his

9 composition, has 24 channels, if you can understand that. It is the upper

10 and lower sound volume which has 24 sound-speaking channels.

11 Now, what does that mean? It means that each of these frequencies

12 can bear a load of 24 telephone conversations in one direction. That

13 means in one direction, a conversation in one direction, unilateral,

14 one-way.

15 Q. Witness W, I want to understand radios, I can assure you, better

16 than I know them now, but I'm learning every day. Let me ask you this:

17 When there are two speakers in a radio communication, the first

18 speaker is physically located at Location A and the second speaker who is

19 receiving the conversation is located at Location B. When a radio

20 communication is transmitted from Point A to Point B, does it have to go

21 through a relay centre on some occasions or can it be transmitted

22 directly?

23 A. It depends on where the two parties in the conversation are

24 located. There are relay centres which direct the direction, and the two

25 parties in a conversation -- I explained this a moment ago -- need not be

Page 4314

1 in Zlatar or Panorama for the conversation to be heard. So they can be in

2 another location linked to that portion through which the signal must

3 pass.

4 Q. Let me give you a concrete example, Witness W. Could one party to

5 the conversation, for example -- strike that.

6 The conversation that you intercepted that is the subject of

7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 303A was intercepted along a certain frequency, the

8 Zvornik - Vlasenica Radio Relay. Now, the frequency is identified as

9 785.000. Based on that information in this report, can you point on this

10 map to tell me the approximate route or the area where this conversation

11 was intercepted?

12 A. I claim that the conversation passed Route 785, passed through

13 it. That is what I can say.

14 Q. Let me ask you the next question, which is: Could one of these

15 speakers in this conversation have been physically located -- and for the

16 sake of example -- at Bratunac, which is on the right side of the map at

17 Badem? Is that possible?

18 A. Yes, it's possible.

19 Q. And, therefore, when the conversation was being communicated to a

20 location, for example, at Zlatar or at Vlasenica, the conversation, as I

21 understand it, would pass from Bratunac, through the communications centre

22 which is at Panorama, and then be repeated up the line to Vlasenica. Is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.

25 Q. And, therefore, when you intercepted the communication, it was

Page 4315

1 intercepted somewhere along the line in the direction going -- I'm sorry,

2 at this megahertz, 785.000 megahertz, and it was intercepted at that

3 particular frequency; is that correct?

4 A. That's correct, yes.

5 Q. So to conclude, the physical location of the persons at either end

6 of the communication -- I'm sorry, at the transmitting end of the

7 communication isn't necessarily Panorama, which is the centre of the

8 radiating lines in this diagram; is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions. Thank you.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

12 Judge Fouad Riad.

13 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness W. I have just one question,

16 and I would like to ask you this question knowing that it's not a

17 professional question. I'm a layman; I'm not scientifically involved like

18 you.

19 You said that there are some sound recordings not starting from

20 the beginning, and certain recordings would have the first sentence

21 missing. You mentioned as an example, saying, "This is General Krstic.

22 Give me so and so." Then you said later that when you don't capture the

23 beginning, you record first and then you start to find the identity of the

24 party. When you missed the first part and you record, then later you try

25 to record the identity of the party. How do you find the identity of the

Page 4316

1 party if it was not captured at the beginning?

2 A. Your Honour, at the beginning of the conversation, he might have

3 identified himself. He could have stated his name; he could have done

4 that even before the operator switched the tape recorder on, but the

5 operator heard it and recorded it on paper. So the two parties -- and the

6 two parties can, of course, identify themselves in the course of the

7 conversation.

8 However, there is another thing. Very often the voices can be

9 recognised. In the course of one day you have the same person having

10 several conversations, and of course the operator can remember the sound

11 of his voice. Or another case, he might say that he is the corps

12 commander, for example, and we did have a corps commander at the time so

13 we would know who that person was.

14 JUDGE RIAD: In fact, this leads me to a more specific question,

15 because you said textually there are several methods for the recognition

16 voices. I'm speaking of scientific methods, the way you can have a

17 voiceprint or that sort of thing.

18 A. No, no, no.

19 JUDGE RIAD: If we apply this to Prosecution Exhibit 303/A, when

20 you say the conversation was between someone called Krstic and Lieutenant

21 Colonel Krsmanovic, according to your knowledge, how did they detect that

22 it was Krstic? Because it's announced as a fact. He said it was as if he

23 knew it but it did not come in the conversation. In the conversation they

24 said, "Hello, is that Krsmanovic?" but the other doesn't say, "Hello, is

25 that Krstic?"

Page 4317

1 A. Yes. I tried to explain that in the way I did. Quite certainly

2 the operator who did this did not do it -- did not record something that

3 he imagined. It either happened or what might have happened was that the

4 time needed for the operator to switch on the tape recorder, the words

5 "Krsmanovic here" -- I beg your pardon, "Krstic here" might already have

6 been spoken, or he recognised his voice.

7 But at all events I maintain that we always aspired to have the

8 names of people quite certain and sure because of everything that

9 followed; that is to say, the people who worked professionally in these

10 matters, in my own service, do not any erroneous data or information.

11 JUDGE RIAD: So it becomes a matter of practice that they always

12 know who is speaking, and then they just mention it without having to

13 prove it.

14 A. Any dilemma that might exist would be recorded as well. So if he

15 wasn't certain, then there would be an "X," or if it wasn't audible

16 enough, if he didn't hear just one letter of the name, once again you

17 would have a question mark next to the name, which means that it

18 associates that name but it need not be, because one letter might change a

19 name. So unless you have heard a name completely, we would put "X" or

20 "Y."

21 JUDGE RIAD: That's quite satisfactory. Thank you.

22 Just as a hypothetical question. In the conversation in the same

23 document, there was an order by, what you called, someone called Krstic

24 asking for 50 buses in total at the stadium in Bratunac, by 1700 hours.

25 Could there be any possibility of knowing if he's calling from Bratunac,

Page 4318

1 for instance, or this was completely impossible for those who are

2 recording? Was he speaking from Bratunac?

3 A. We were not able to locate this with any precision.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Or approximately, you cannot.

5 A. We only knew that the conversation passed by that segment, and we

6 intercepted it there.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

8 A. Thank you too.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

10 Riad.

11 Madam Judge Wald has the floor.

12 JUDGE WALD: Witness, two of these intercepts do identify in the

13 paper form General Krstic as being a participant in the conversation, 303

14 and 305, and then there are several intercepts which you or whoever

15 prepared them doesn't identify. It says, "Unidentified General" or

16 "Unidentified X" or "Y" and you had told us that very often the person

17 listening can sometimes identify because they recognise the voice, as well

18 as a formal introduction that goes on the tape.

19 My question is: Since all of these intercepts that we've been

20 dealing with over the last hour all took place over a couple of days, July

21 12th to July 14th, would it be reasonable to infer, since General Krstic,

22 by whatever means was identified as the participant in two of them, that

23 that pretty much means that he would not have engaged in any of the

24 intercepts where the people are unidentified, like "Unidentified General,"

25 or else his voice would have been recognised, or is that not a fair

Page 4319

1 inference to draw?

2 A. I hope that I have understood you correctly now, and you must try

3 and understand me too.

4 JUDGE WALD: I will.

5 A. I forgot to mention a detail which can bring the operator into a

6 dilemma, that is to say, that he cannot say the name, that is, the quality

7 of the connection, the quality of the sound. Perhaps it was an individual

8 who took part in the previous conversation, but because of the quality of

9 the communication connection itself -- what I want to say is that we

10 didn't want to send out any disinformation to our head office ourselves;

11 that was not our intention at any time.

12 JUDGE WALD: So you are saying that you erred on the side of being

13 very conservative, and even if you thought somebody might be the same

14 person, you wouldn't put it down unless you had something more certain; is

15 that right?

16 A. Yes, that's right. That is precisely right. We would have to be

17 100 per cent certain in order to write somebody's name down.

18 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

19 A. Of course we didn't know that there would be The Hague.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness W, you have just

21 asserted something that I was going to ask you, because you said that you

22 were doing serious work but that at the time - then - you didn't know that

23 you would be working for the Tribunal as well.

24 A. No, I did not. Not in my ...

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question. You saw a

Page 4320

1 series of documents produced by your service, if I can put it that way.

2 Do you know who underlined those documents, did the underlining?

3 A. Well, this is my answer: I think that it was a type of working

4 document that you have been handed; the working documents. So why should

5 I speak on that subject if it was the task of my service? I think that is

6 sufficient, to answer your question.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 Another question. If the document 557 -- so we have document 557,

9 and the date is the 12th of July. Document 563 has the same date, that is

10 to say, the 12th of July, and another document, 563 -- no, document 561,

11 what date should it have?

12 Have you got a pencil and could write it down, a piece of paper --

13 Mr. Usher, please -- because it's more visible that way. So document 561,

14 dated the 12th of April -- I beg your pardon. No, I jumped the gun. Let

15 me start again.

16 Document 557, 12th of July; 563, 12th of July. What is the date

17 that document 561 should have? Have you understood?

18 A. It would be logical that the same date would be on that document

19 too; that is logical. However, there is the possibility of the fact that

20 it was sent -- that is to say, I'm not quite certain of which document we

21 mean, whether it was a document taken over, but it might have been

22 processed during the night and entered in the following day, or that it

23 was somewhere between day and night. I would have to see. I would have

24 to check that.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Your answer is sufficient. In

Page 4321

1 fact, it was a question put to you by the Prosecutor. It was a date

2 which, in your opinion, was in error. But it could happen through logical

3 deduction, of course.

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question for you. I'm

6 not sure that I understood something properly. What is the date when you

7 began working in that building with the Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit in

8 it?

9 A. There is an exact date. I know that it was in December 1994 when

10 the first report was sent out.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question. We can see

12 that the 12th of July, there was a lot of work on the 12th of July for

13 you. We can also see that the operator JN160 worked throughout the day of

14 the 12th, more or less, because the documents have that date, and also on

15 the 13th and 14th.

16 Let us take the 12th for a moment. If that particular individual

17 listened in once and recognised the voice of General Krstic, is it logical

18 to suppose that he could recognise it in all the intercepts, subsequent

19 intercepts, except the ones where you said there was a poor communication

20 line?

21 A. It is not logical to recognise it every time. Let me try and

22 explain why. Nobody could take on the responsibility of saying, "I heard

23 the voice once and I'll be able to recognise it every subsequent time."

24 First of all, this is because we didn't only listen to Krstic.

25 Had we only listened to Krstic and had we only had Krstic, then that could

Page 4322

1 probably be possible, the operator in case could say that that was the

2 case. But you always had to have elements which would determine

3 identity.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question: During those

5 same days, on the other side in your service I think you said that there

6 were at least two people working there, the operator, that is to say,

7 Operator JN160, and the other person, Operator JD073. How did you work

8 together?

9 A. Quite simple. We had a room the size -- that is to say, it was

10 three and a half metres by three metres in size. And I've already said

11 that we had a bed there and the device and a table, and that was enough.

12 We were there all the time. That's where we were.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And my other question: The

14 documents that we have seen have to do with two frequencies largely, 785

15 and 836. Let's leave out the other numbers. We see that the 785

16 frequency produced at least -- that is to say, the documents were obtained

17 on channels 5, 11 and 3. The other one, let us leave behind for the

18 moment.

19 Now, these channels, 5, 11 and 3, were they part of the 24

20 possible channels on the same frequency or not?

21 A. Yes. Very often -- that is to say, I have not mentioned this so

22 far. In identifying the individual channels within the frameworks of

23 those 24 channels, we knew exactly who was using which, but with the

24 proviso that from that telephone, somebody else could call from that

25 telephone. So we never dared say exactly who it was. It was a telephone

Page 4323

1 in his office, for example, but the courier could have used it, the

2 secretary could have used it, a soldier could have used it, and so on and

3 so forth.

4 So we knew 100 per cent that on that route, the telephone belonged

5 to so and so. That's what we could say for sure.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did the same person monitor the

7 same channel or could the same person switch to other channels?

8 A. We had distinct channels, and as we didn't have many personnel,

9 only (redacted), we mostly used those few channels or listened to those few

10 channels and frequencies and all the things that we have said; identified

11 the channel, who it belongs to, et cetera, et cetera. So it wasn't one

12 person who was associated to one channel exclusively, because we didn't

13 have sufficient people. But we also did not cover hundreds of frequencies

14 at the same time. That was not possible.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So thank you very much. We have

16 learned a lot about radio today, and so we wish to thank you for teaching

17 us and, above all, for speaking seriously. Thank you for your testimony.

18 I think we have some exhibits to admit, Mr. Harmon.

19 MR. HARMON: I have shown and introduced through this witness's

20 testimony and laid the foundation for a number of exhibits. These are

21 exhibits which were not contained in the notebooks but which are distinct

22 pieces of paper, and I can identify them. And I would move for their

23 admission, obviously understanding the Court's previous ruling. But this

24 constitutes a distinct set of documents, and I will identify them.

25 303A, B and C; 304A, B and C; 305A, B and C; 306A, B and C and C

Page 4324

1 bis; 307A, B and C; 308A, B and C; 309A, B and C; 310A, B and C; 311A and

2 B; 312A, B and C and C bis. We would tender those documents into

3 evidence. Thank you.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Harmon. But in

5 view of the ruling of the Chamber, perhaps they should be put in the same

6 package, and I think that is what Mr. Petrusic is about to ask.

7 Mr. Petrusic.

8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely so, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that case, Mr. Petrusic, you

10 see that the Prosecutor has facilitated your task a little, so please try

11 and facilitate the task of the Prosecution as well. So review all the

12 documents so as to be able to take a position as soon as possible,

13 please.

14 I think we have come to the end of your testimony, Witness W. We

15 thank you very much for coming here, and we wish you success in your work

16 and a safe journey to your country.

17 We will now adjourn. We will be here again tomorrow at 9.30.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 2.45 p.m., to be reconvened on

20 Wednesday, the 21st day of June, 2000,

21 at 9.30 a.m.

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