1 Thursday, 22
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, ladies
7 and gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth, the interpreters,
8 legal assistants, court reporters. I see that the French court reporter
9 is not listening to me. And now --
10 Good morning. You still can't hear me? Is it all right now?
11 Good morning.
12 Good morning, Mr. Harmon, Mr. Cayley, Mr. Petrusic, Mr. Visnjic,
13 Mr. Krstic.
14 Good morning, Witness. Have you had a good rest?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're going to continue
17 answering questions which Mr. Cayley is going to put to you.
18 Mr. Cayley, I think that today things are already in order.
19 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President. What I've done -- good morning,
20 Your Honours.
21 What I've done is to go back through the transcript to spot where
22 the choreography went wrong and I'd like to go back to Exhibit 281. It
23 only involves, in fact, the last three exhibits.
24 So if, Mr. Usher, you could present the original notebook.
25 WITNESS: WITNESS Y [Resumed]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Examined by Mr. Cayley: [Cont'd]
3 MR. CAYLEY: This, Your Honours, is tab 3, Exhibit 281.
4 Q. Witness, could you look at that notebook, please? Do you
5 recognise this notebook?
6 A. Good morning, Your Honours. I do recognise the notebook.
7 Q. Is this a notebook from Konjuh?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. CAYLEY: And, Your Honours, the faithful copy of that document
10 is Prosecutor's Exhibit 281 at tab 3.
11 Q. Thank you, Witness.
12 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher.
13 This, Your Honours, is contained at tab 14, Prosecutor's Exhibit
15 Q. Could you inspect that book, please, Witness. Is this a book from
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How do you recognise it as a book from Konjuh?
19 A. By the date under which this notebook was registered, the date
20 when we transcribed the conversations, and, of course, it was my
21 handwriting and I was at Konjuh at the time.
22 MR. CAYLEY: And if that could be returned, please, Mr. Usher.
23 The last notebook, Your Honours, is Prosecutor's Exhibit 296,
24 which is tab 18.
25 Q. Do you recognise this book?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Where is it from?
3 A. From Konjuh also. It was in the period of July when I was at
4 Konjuh, in that period.
5 Q. Thank you, Witness.
6 MR. CAYLEY: Again for the purposes of the record, the witness is
7 referring to the original of Prosecutor's Exhibit 296 at tab 18.
8 Mr. President, I would simply add that both Your Honours and the Defence
9 are welcome to inspect the originals of these documents, but I can state
10 that the copies are faithful copies of the original document which the
11 witness has been inspecting.
12 Q. Now, Witness, I would just like to address two particular
13 intercepts with you which you took down.
14 MR. CAYLEY: If the usher could help me at this point. Just to
15 prepare you, we need also Prosecutor's Exhibit 286, which is found at tab
16 8. If you could give that to the witness. And if the witness to be
17 provided with Prosecutor's Exhibit 326. Mr. Usher, we have a spare here
18 to avoid any delay.
19 The next exhibit, Madam Registrar, is 327, and that's the only
20 other one with this witness. So it's Prosecutor's Exhibit 327.
21 Q. Now, Witness, in respect of Prosecutor's Exhibit 326 --
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise, but we
23 haven't received those exhibits, Mr. Cayley, so could we get a copy to be
24 able to follow, please?
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We have not received any either,
1 Mr. Cayley. I think we only got as far as 290, I think.
2 MR. CAYLEY: My apologies, Mr. President. The registrar's office
3 has them, but I -- we have a spare copy, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Cayley. I think that
5 we now have all the necessary exhibits. So thank you very much.
6 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Witness, do you recognise this intercept? Do you recognise your
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Is this an intercept that you took down?
11 MR. CAYLEY: This is now referring to Prosecutor's Exhibit 326/C.
12 Q. What is the date of this intercept?
13 A. The 14th of July, 1995.
14 Q. How do you know it's the 14th of July, 1995?
15 A. Because I put down that date. It is my handwriting.
16 MR. CAYLEY: And could you place that intercept, please, Mr.
17 Usher, onto the ELMO so it can be seen in the public gallery.
18 Q. Could you point to the date at the top of that document, please,
20 MR. CAYLEY: If the camera could --
21 A. The date is at the top of the page, at the beginning of the book.
22 MR. CAYLEY: And if now, Mr. Usher, the witness could be provided
23 with tab 8, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 286.
24 Your Honours, you will find this at, using the last three digits
25 of this exhibit, page 871.
1 Mr. Usher, is that an extract of the exhibit? Is that
2 Prosecutor's Exhibit 286?
3 THE USHER: Yes.
4 MR. CAYLEY:
5 Q. Do you see the same intercept in front of you now?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I think the "14" has been slightly obliterated by the hole punch
8 at the top, the "14" in the date.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you see that?
11 MR. CAYLEY: For the purposes of the record, the witness has
12 confirmed that the original exhibit that he referred to, which is 326C, is
13 contained within Prosecutor's Exhibit 286, at page 00800871. Thank you,
15 Mr. President, I'm going to read this into the record. It's a
16 reasonably short intercept, and it commences with the frequency which is
17 872.500, 0905 hours, channel 9.
18 Let me interrupt, just before I move into this, if I can ask the
19 registrar to prepare Exhibit 327 and to also have the same exhibit, 286,
20 ready for the witness so that while I'm reading this out we won't have any
21 more delay.
22 Q. It begins: "Duty Officer - General Zivanovic
23 D: ... a group towards the Drina. The group
24 is huge.
25 Z: Who told you that?
1 D: Our intelligence officer, Dusko Vukotic
2 says so.
3 Z: Where are you calling from?
4 D: ...
5 Z: From the duty officer's post.
6 D: Yes, just to let you know, just to inform
8 Z: And where are they headed ...
9 D: ...
10 Z: Yes, yes, Mladevac, Novo Selo. I know.
11 D: Kula Grad.
12 Z: I know. Mane needs to be informed
14 D: Whom should I inform?
15 Z: The Zvornik Public Security Centre, since
16 that's the area of their police. They are
17 the key now. The Army is busy with something
18 else at the moment.
19 D: OK.
20 Z: Mane is working now. He has policemen in
21 Konjevic Polje and Zvornik, and in Sekovici.
22 And that's just enough for two or
23 three /illegible/. And the groups are not as
24 large as they are talking about. They're
25 exaggerating. They're lying.
1 D: ...
2 Z: Well fuck it. There is a thousand here
3 and a thousand there. It's not true.
4 D: OK."
5 Again, the same document has the date at the top right-hand
6 corner, 14th of July, 1995.
7 Witness, how were you able to recognise that this was General
8 Zivanovic in this conversation, if you can recall?
9 A. We monitored this frequency for a long time. The telephone from
10 the office from which the General usually called had a very specific
11 tone. The microphone of his telephone would magnify the volume, and it
12 was simply quite specific. And that's how we recognised it.
13 Q. Had you heard that tone on many occasions whilst listening on the
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If I could now move to the last exhibit, which is Prosecutor's
17 Exhibit 327.
18 If you could look at the third page of that, please, Witness,
19 which is the original version. Do you recognise this intercept?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is this an intercept which you took down?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. CAYLEY: If, now, the witness could be shown Prosecutor's
24 Exhibit 286, which is the same exhibit that we looked at before. Your
25 Honours, again this is found at tab 8.
1 If you'd go, Mr. Usher, to page 872, which is actually the page
2 after the page from the previous occasion that we were looking at this.
3 Your Honours, that is page 872, and that's the last three digits
4 of the evidence registration number in Prosecutor's Exhibit 286.
5 Q. Do you see the intercept that I've just shown to you on the
6 left-hand side of that page?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that's the same intercept that you've just inspected.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What is the date of that intercept? If you look at the previous
12 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could show him the last page.
13 A. The 14th of July, 1995.
14 Q. Now, you're now looking at the previous page, which is 871, and
15 that has a date at the top of the 14th of July, which is the date which
16 you read out previously; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The first intercept that we dealt with today, the first specific
19 intercept, at what time was that taken?
20 A. This conversation took place at 0905 hours.
21 MR. CAYLEY: Now, for the purposes --
22 A. When I transcribed it is something I could not determine, when I
23 actually wrote it down on paper, because it was recorded and we wouldn't
24 usually immediately transcribe it onto paper.
25 Q. We'll come back to that point. The time "9.05" applies to the
1 first intercept which you identified, the first specific intercept. If we
2 then turn the page.
3 MR. CAYLEY: The first intercept, Your Honours, is Prosecutor's
4 Exhibit 326.
5 Q. The next intercept and the one that we're presently talking about,
6 at what time did you take that down?
7 A. The next conversation was recorded at 9.35.
8 Q. Also on the 14th of July, 1995.
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. CAYLEY: For the purposes of the record, the witness has
11 identified the intercept within Prosecutor's Exhibit 327/C as comprising
12 part of the notebook, Prosecutor's Exhibit 286, at page 00800872.
13 Mr. President, I will read this fairly short intercept into the
15 "0935 hrs, 872.500, Channel 9. Slavko -
17 Z: Thank you so much ... I'm here at the
18 command post but I'm slowly packing my
19 backpack, they've already asked me to go
20 somewhere else ... Slavko /illegible/ that
21 small table /stolak/ ... /illegible/ the
22 personnel officer deceived me ... Gavric is
23 fucking around with me."
24 Now, Witness, how did you identify Zivanovic in this intercept?
25 A. By the voice on the telephone.
1 Q. And you identified Slavko because Slavko is referred to in the
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further questions for the
5 witness so I can now offer him for cross-examination.
6 JUDGE RIAD: Just to remark, the French translation is not so
7 identical with the English. Sometimes -- it does make perhaps a great
8 difference. In French: "Merci, Dieu te donne longue vie ..." The other
9 one doesn't mention it, and the last sentence is differently translated.
10 I will not tell you about it.
11 MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, I'm glad it's just the French translation
12 and not the original.
13 JUDGE RIAD: I hope the original corresponds to the English more.
14 MR. CAYLEY: I will have it checked, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] May I also make a remark,
16 Mr. Cayley. I think that the translators were not able to read the
17 original. We have here the witness. The witness can read his own
18 writings perhaps, I don't know, but maybe the witness should be asked what
19 the interpreters were not able to read. Maybe he can tell us what they
20 left out.
21 MR. CAYLEY: That's an excellent idea, Mr. President. The reason
22 that we haven't always done it actually with the witnesses is because the
23 copies from the original books are not always that good and it involves
24 people sort of having to do that, but I can ask the witness, if you wish.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, please do that,
1 Mr. Cayley.
2 MR. CAYLEY:
3 Q. Witness, could you turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 327/C, if you
4 still have it, and just read -- actually, if you could wait one moment.
5 We will find it in the original notebook.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think it will be page 53,
7 would it not, Mr. Cayley?
8 MR. CAYLEY: I have it, Mr. President. I'm just seeing that it's
9 actually a copy that can be read.
10 Mr. Usher, I've extracted the page here.
11 Q. Witness, can you read the copy that's in front of you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you read it out to the Court, please.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. From the beginning.
16 A. The time is 9.35. The frequency is 872.900, channel 9. The
17 participants are Slavko and Zivanovic, and Zivanovic is speaking which is
18 the "Z".
19 "Thank you, God bless ... here I am at the command post but I'm
20 packing my backpack slowly because because they're asking for me at
21 another place ... Slavko, is that small table going to come ... the
22 personnel officer deceived me ... Gavric is fucking around with me."
23 Q. You stated that the frequency was 872.900, and on the copy I have
24 it's a very clear "5". I don't know whether you misspoke. Is the
25 frequency 872.500 or 900?
1 A. 872.500.
2 MR. CAYLEY: I can offer the witness now for cross-examination,
3 Mr. President.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
5 Mr. Cayley.
6 Mr. Visnjic.
7 Witness Y, you're now going to be answering questions put to you
8 by Mr. Visnjic.
9 Your witness, Mr. Visnjic.
10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic:
12 Q. Good morning, Witness Y. Witness Y, during your testimony
13 yesterday and examination by the Prosecution, you said that you had
14 graduated from secondary school.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Which secondary school?
17 A. The locksmith secondary school.
18 Q. May I take it then that your secondary school education does not
19 have any special connection with a knowledge of radio devices?
20 A. No, not through school.
21 Q. You then said that during your military service in the JNA that
22 you were in the signals -- a signals unit and that you were an operator in
23 this signals unit.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Which signals units did you work for, telephone, radio, or
1 something else?
2 A. No. I worked with radio communication.
3 Q. You also stated that as the commander of a squad, you were in
4 charge of vehicles with radio devices on them.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did those vehicles contain radio relay installations?
7 A. No.
8 Q. During your military service, were you in charge of, or work with,
9 radio relay devices?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. During your military service did you work on radio relay devices
12 of the RRU1 type?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the RRU800?
15 A. Not with the RRU800, but I did work with the RRU1 type, yes.
16 Q. In view of your later work, did you know how the RRU800 device
17 operated? Were you familiar with it?
18 A. Do you mean within the JNA?
19 Q. No, I mean later on working with this kind of equipment.
20 A. Yes, I did get to know that device, yes.
21 Q. Could you tell me, please, whether there is a difference between
22 the radio relay installation RRU1, and RRU100-- 800, I beg your pardon,
23 with respect to sending out signals, signals transmission?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Every relay -- radio relay device directs its signal from one
1 point to another. Is that correct, in principle?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. On that basis, can you explain to us the difference in the
4 functioning of RRU1 and RRU800?
5 A. RRU1 is a one-channel telephonic device, one channel. That is to
6 say, it can transmit only one conversation, whereas the RRU800 has greater
7 possibilities and can cover up to 24 channels at the same time.
8 Twenty-four conversations simultaneously can be transmitted.
9 Q. If the radio relay device transmits a signal directly from one
10 point to another, I assume that the signal is directed in a certain beam.
11 Is that right?
12 A. Well, yes. That also depends on the antenna.
13 Q. For you to be able to intercept that beam, you must be at a
14 certain distance from the device, laterally speaking; is that right?
15 A. No. No, that's not correct.
16 Q. Do you have to be on a line with this beam?
17 A. You mean laterally -- no, you have to be close up. If you say
18 "laterally," you can be 50 kilometres away and hear it laterally. You
19 don't have to be in the vicinity. You can be 50 kilometres off, for
20 example, to be able to hear it laterally. But if you're on the same line,
21 then of course audibility is better.
22 Q. That means that the beam is dispersed in one way or another.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The beam we're talking about is a radio-wave beam, if I can use
25 the term; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you happen to know the difference between the beam dispersion
3 between the devices RRU1 and RRU800?
4 A. I've already said that that depends on the antenna used. There
5 are directed antennas and circular beam antennas -- antennae, and there
6 are antennae with stronger direct waves, better guided.
7 Q. So the difference's in the antenna and not in the device. Would
8 it be correct to put it that way?
9 A. Well, that would depend. It depends on the frequency of the
10 antenna, the strength and -- the strength of the device and equipment
11 used, and so forth.
12 Q. So we cannot differentiate from where the signal is sent.
13 A. What do you mean? The type of device to help us recognise --
14 Q. No. Let me make my question clearer. I'll put it another way.
15 With respect to the device RRU1 or RRU800, so with respect to
16 those two devices, taking those two devices, is there a difference in type
17 in signal transmission?
18 A. The difference is in the frequency.
19 Q. These devices, RRU1 and RRU800, do they have standard antennae as
20 a component part of the equipment?
21 A. In the sets -- well, it depends what the sets are used for. RRU1
22 does have a standard type of antenna. The RRU800, it depends on the
23 location it is deployed, whether it is intended for stationary purposes or
24 for mobile purposes.
25 Q. A standard antenna for RRU1, is it the antenna which directs this
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and English transcripts.
2 A. Yes, it is, but not in the sense of beaming just one way. It also
3 has lateral beams and rear beams.
4 Q. During your time in the JNA, you became squad leader, did you not,
5 you got the rank of squad leader.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The knowledge you gained about the RRU1 installations, the
8 equipment and beam ability, you also gained that in the JNA, did you?
9 A. No. My knowledge about antennae and how they are beamed was
10 acquired earlier on.
11 Q. You mean before you did your military service.
12 A. Yes, that's right, before.
13 Q. Can we take it, then, that information on the beaming of antennae
14 from RRU1 was not a military secret but it was common knowledge to anybody
15 with the rudiments of technical education?
16 A. Well, yes. We would learn about antennae and beaming and RRU1
17 devices, yes.
18 Q. Thank you. I should now like to go back a bit and talk about your
19 work at Majevica, Okresanica, and on Mount Konjuh.
20 Can you tell me, please, when you were transferred to Konjuh, did
21 you have any functions to perform there, or were you a regular soldier?
22 A. I worked as a regular, ordinary soldier.
23 Q. For your work, did you have any written instructions that you had
24 to adhere to, any rules, regulations, for the job?
25 A. Well, they were just standards according to which we worked, a
1 system according to which we worked which was designed, and the platoon
2 commanders presented us with this; that is to say, they issued orders as
3 to how we were to work.
4 Q. Was there a difference in the method of work at Majevica and the
5 method of work employed at Konjuh, for example?
6 A. Well, the method of work was always basically the same. While I
7 was at Majevica, I would usually work four-hour shifts, and we kept
8 records, and on Konjuh -- that is to say, at Majevica, I would work six
9 hours and at Konjuh I would work four hours. That would be the
10 difference, in the duration of the shift. There would be two or three
11 shifts per 24 hours.
12 Q. Did you keep a log of any kind with respect to the shifts and the
13 duration of those shifts?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The work you did, I assume, requires great concentration, does it
16 not, and that it is classed as a difficult job.
17 A. Well, depending on the quantity of work, yes. The work is hard;
18 it is taxing.
19 Q. Working 12 or 14 hours, for example, without interruption at one
20 of these work posts, was that possible? Were you able to do this with
21 full concentration all the time?
22 A. Well, we never worked 12 hours without a break, we would usually
23 have breaks, and if you did more than 12 hours, then this would be without
24 a shift. For example, if there was a lot of work to do, we would step in,
25 depending on the circumstances. We had standard shifts and you knew the
1 individuals who had to be on those shifts, but depending on the situation,
2 others would come in to help out. Of course, it is very strenuous work,
3 and after you've been doing that work for some time, fatigue sets in.
4 Q. Can we take it, then, that the shifts were four hours, because you
5 couldn't go on for much longer except in extraordinary circumstances?
6 A. Well, our normal workload was between four and six hours.
7 Q. In July 1995, was radio communication intense during that period?
8 A. In July, no.
9 Q. You said that RRU1 was a device which transmitted signals on one
11 A. It is a single-channel, single-conversation device, and it can
12 transmit teleprinter operations as well.
13 Q. When you say "one channel," does that mean that both parties to a
14 conversation can be monitored and are speaking on one and the same
16 A. It is a telephonic device which means that its operations are
17 duplex, which means it has transmission and reception at the same time.
18 One device of this kind is the 10 megahertz; the frequency is lower. But
19 depending on the situation, sometimes you can hear both participants,
20 sometimes you cannot; sometimes you only hear one of the participants in a
22 Q. Yes, but that is conversation within the frameworks of one
23 channel; is that correct?
24 A. Yes. Usually there are two frequencies. One is 10 megahertz
25 lower than the other.
1 Q. But technically speaking, using the technical term, it is referred
2 to as the one channel, a single channel.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. If conversations were to be held on two channels, is that
5 technically possible?
6 A. Well, I've already said, one frequency is 10 megahertz lower than
7 the other and so that possibility exists; that is to say, on one frequency
8 you hear one of the participants, you hear his voice, and on the other
9 frequency you hear the voice of the other participant in the conversation,
10 and they are having a mutual conversation, they are talking to each
11 other. But you hear one on one location and another on another location.
12 Q. Yes, but that's all within one channel, is it?
13 A. Yes, one channel.
14 Q. Can there be a combination that one person is speaking on one
15 frequency and another on quite a different frequency regardless of this
16 duplex system?
17 A. On the RRU1 device, this is automatic.
18 Q. And on the RRU800?
19 A. Well, that depends. For the RRU800, it depends. The operators
20 decide. Their leaders, their commanders decide which channel will be
21 used, and then you can hear both ways. It is a two-way -- two-way
23 Q. The difference in frequency can, of course, be greater than the
24 difference used with the RRU1 device; is that correct?.
25 A. Yes. Yes, of course. You can have an arbitrary frequency; it can
1 be higher or lower. With RRU, this is regulated automatically.
2 Q. Let me ask you about the RRU800 device now. If you are
3 intercepting or monitoring a conversation with the RRU800 device --
4 A. Yes, I'm following you.
5 Q. -- there is a great difference in frequency between one of the
6 participants, his signal, and the other participant in the conversation
7 and that second signal. There is a greater difference than the one you
8 explained which is automatically regulated on the RRU1 device; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you then hear both participants, or do you hear each
12 participant on another channel, on two separate channels?
13 A. You hear them on one channel, but once again, let me say that it
14 depends on the frequency. One party can be heard on another frequency, on
15 another channel, whereas the other frequency will also be heard on some
16 other channel.
17 Q. When you were working at one work post, how many channels were you
18 able to monitor simultaneously? I mean physically rather than
19 technically. Not how much equipment you had, but how many channels could
20 one operator monitor?
21 A. He has those that are automatically memorised. One device has 24
22 channels, and when the device does the scanning, it switches from one to
23 another. And also he could follow on the RRU1 one or several channels.
24 That depended.
25 Q. Thank you. You also worked at Okresanica as well as at Konjuh.
1 Did those sections belong to the same unit?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was it the same company which was based in Tuzla?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you issued equipment, technical devices, from the same
7 A. As for the equipment, it came from various quarters but basically
8 from the same command, yes.
9 Q. Can the same be said of the notebooks that you received and in
10 which you noted the conversations?
11 A. Yes, the notebooks arrived from the command too.
12 Q. Does the same apply to the tapes used for recording conversations?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When receiving these notebooks and tapes, did you sign some kind
15 of a document?
16 A. No, I didn't sign anything. The commander of the platoon did
17 that. I was not platoon commander so I didn't sign anything.
18 Q. Was the platoon commander with you in the shift all the time?
19 A. Yes, as far as Konjuh is concerned.
20 Q. I see. As far as Konjuh is concerned.
21 Do you remember whether the notebooks you used had the pages
22 numbered on them?
23 A. I really didn't look. They did, yes. Not quite all of them, I
24 think, but most of them did.
25 Q. Tell me, how much time could a tape take or, rather, what duration
1 of conversation?
2 A. I don't know, but these are large tapes. They're not like the
3 standard tapes.
4 Q. So a minimum of several hours? Would that be a good estimate?
5 A. Six hours. Yes, six hours, because you could tape on both sides.
6 You could record on both sides of the tape.
7 Q. Tell me, when the communication -- radio communication was not
8 intensive, how many hours of conversations were you able to record during
9 the day?
10 A. What do you mean? What kind of conversations? If there was no
11 communication, it wasn't intensive. It wasn't intensive, how much time?
12 I really don't know how to answer that question. I don't understand what
13 you mean.
14 Q. Let me rephrase it. When you say that radio communication was not
15 intensive in a certain period, can you tell me then, in that period how
16 many conversations would you intercept?
17 A. That depended on the time of day. Usually there were more during
18 the day, in the morning, four to five conversations an hour.
19 Q. You mean on average or in the morning?
20 A. On average. That would be low-intensity communication.
21 Q. Tell me, please, while you were a soldier at Konjuh, did you
22 receive orders in writing, any order that would be handed to you
24 A. As a soldier, I didn't receive any written orders, I received oral
25 orders, and the orders came over the communication system, so I had no
1 insight into them.
2 Q. The year 1995 was the third or fourth year of the war. Was there
3 a shortage of equipment and technical resources at the time?
4 A. Yes. That was the rule. We were always short of equipment.
5 Q. Does that apply to notebooks as well and magnetic tape?
6 A. Yes. But all in all, there were sufficient quantities overall.
7 Q. Does that mean that shortages occurred but rarely?
8 A. In 1995, the situation had improved as regards notebooks and tapes
9 as compared to 1993 and 1994, not to mention 1992.
10 Q. Did you run out of notebooks and tapes sometimes in 1995?
11 A. Hardly. Tapes certainly not. They could be obtained in
12 sufficient quantities. But all this was a long time ago, so I can't
13 remember exactly whether we ever ran out of notebooks.
14 Q. Tell me, in view of the distance between your facility and the
15 base in Tuzla, and the same applies to the facility at Majevica, how
16 frequently were you visited or, rather, if you had some urgent need, how
17 were they able to supply you with it?
18 A. At Okresanica it was easier, a little more difficult at Konjuh,
19 but there were couriers coming and going regularly from the brigades,
20 usually every day. So, we really didn't have to go all the way to Tuzla
21 to fetch something. It could be delivered by courier from the closest
23 Q. Can it be said that you had virtually a daily connection with your
24 basic unit via courier or communications?
25 A. Yes. We had the -- Okresanica was a wire station, but at Konjuh
1 it was wireless, so there was only radio communication from there.
2 Q. Tell me, what was the procedure when a notebook is filled in
4 A. It would be put aside, and when the next shift would come at the
5 facility, then the platoon commander would be present usually, and the
6 company commander. They would carry those notebooks to the command, back
7 to the command down there.
8 Q. Tell me -- and what was the procedure regarding the tapes?
9 A. We would write a piece of paper on the tape with the date when we
10 would turn on the other side of the tape to tape it on the other side, and
11 then also they would take them to the command when the complete shift --
12 new shift took over.
13 Q. Tell me, when you were working in your one shift, was anyone
14 specifically assigned to a particular activity within radio interception
15 -- I'm not talking about encryption -- or did all of you do everything?
16 A. At Konjuh there were people specifically assigned to antennas,
17 another man for tapes, and then the encryption, of course. Nothing else,
18 I think. There were no other specific assignments, I think.
19 Q. What was the procedure for sending reports from Konjuh?
20 A. It would be typed on the computer, protected like any other
21 telegram, and forwarded.
22 Q. So in June 1995, you had a computer at Konjuh?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Tell me, while you were working at Majevica and at Konjuh, apart
25 from the Army of Republika Srpska and their signals, did you capture any
1 other signals? For instance, of the HVO.
2 A. The RRU1 would catch them from time to time, but we didn't monitor
4 Q. Can you explain what you mean when you say you didn't monitor
5 them? If you heard them, what would you do?
6 A. They mostly used these signals in Posavina.
7 Q. What would the procedure be?
8 A. We would just register them. We would just note it down.
9 Q. You would register them but you wouldn't intercept them?
10 A. No. We would get orders from above, from our superiors what we
11 were to intercept.
12 Q. How did you get that order?
13 A. Via the platoon commander.
14 Q. Orally?
15 A. Yes, orally.
16 Q. My question is whether all the soldiers within your group were
17 equally well trained for radio interception.
18 A. No, they were not equally trained.
19 Q. When there was a change of shifts, the small shifts, was any
20 written document compiled regarding the number of devices, their
21 operational abilities or any faults that there may be or anything like
23 A. I can't remember that. We were always working in one place, and
24 it could easily be noticed if anything were to be taken away.
25 Q. When shifts changed, did you receive notebooks from the previous
2 A. Yes. The notebooks would be at the workplace.
3 Q. But when the whole group would leave, when you're going for the
4 seven-day rest, did you then also leave the notebooks to the next shift?
5 A. They would always stay there. They would never be taken
6 anywhere. They would always be in that same room in which we worked.
7 Q. Yes, but if I understood you correctly, you said, a moment ago,
8 that the notebooks were taken to the command in Tuzla.
9 A. Yes, those that were full, but I'm talking about the notebooks
10 that were still not full. They would remain in the room in which we
12 Q. Tell me, please -- no. Let me withdraw that question and let me
13 rephrase it.
14 When intercepting conversations, did you have the impression that
15 the other side, the monitored party, knew that there was a possibility
16 that they were being intercepted by you?
17 A. Yes. They had this more elaborate system later on for the
18 protection of some information.
19 Q. When intercepting those lines, did you sometimes have the
20 impression that the opposing party was intentionally giving you some
21 information on an open line?
22 A. One could usually notice that. One could feel that in the actual
23 pronunciation, because they weren't so skilled. They assumed that we
24 [sic] were being monitored. In fact, they could hear that on the radio.
25 But as far as I know, they didn't engage in any deception, as it is
1 called, as far as I know.
2 Q. But it was common knowledge, as you have explained, that a large
3 number of persons on both sides were aware of interception.
4 A. Yes. Well, they were on guard but they couldn't always be on
6 Q. But whether they were watchful or not, that was up to the operator
7 to judge.
8 A. No. No.
9 Q. Tell me, please, how much freedom did the operator have in
10 determining how interesting a particular conversation was?
11 A. The operator would usually judge how interesting a conversation
12 was and whether it needed to be transcribed.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic, I'm sorry for
14 interrupting you. Do you have any idea how much time you need to finish
15 your cross-examination?
16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm almost done.
17 Another couple of minutes. I'm watching the time too.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. Thank you very much.
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Didn't the operator very frequently, on the basis of his
21 impression and his prior knowledge, identify the participants in the
23 A. The participants were usually recognised by certain specific
24 characteristics, certain characteristics which depended on the person in
1 Q. A moment ago you said that you recognised General Zivanovic by his
2 telephone, the telephone he used.
3 A. Yes. The telephone in General Zivanovic's office had a specific
5 Q. Could someone else have used General Zivanovic's telephone?
6 A. There is such a possibility, so one cannot claim 100 per cent that
7 it was he.
8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you, I have no
9 further questions.
10 Thank you, Witness.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much,
12 Mr. Visnjic.
13 Mr. Cayley, any re-examination?
14 MR. CAYLEY: I don't have any questions for the witness. Thank
15 you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
17 Mr. Cayley.
18 Judge Fouad Riad, you have some questions.
19 Questioned by the Court:
20 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness Y. Can you hear me?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE RIAD: Just two small questions to clarify a few things.
23 In your answer to the Defence counsel when he asked you, "Were all
24 soldiers within your group equally well-trained for radio interception,"
25 you answered, "No, they were not equally trained." Does that mean that
1 they were better than you or less than you? Were you among the best?
2 A. I was somewhere in the middle. There were some who new a little
3 more. But more or less in the middle. There were those who were better
4 trained and those who were less well-trained than me.
5 JUDGE RIAD: You were a squad leader, weren't you?
6 A. No. No.
7 JUDGE RIAD: I understood that you were the squad leader of an
8 armoured brigade. Perhaps I misunderstood. So you were in the middle.
9 A. In terms of training I was in the middle. I was in the Yugoslav
10 People's Army the leader of a team. This was before the war. This was
11 before the war and ...
12 JUDGE RIAD: But if you were the leader of the team, then you were
13 well-trained? I mean, as the leader of a team, what was your standard?
14 A. In the JNA I was well-trained, yes, for those operations, for
15 signals, of which I was an operator on signals devices. But in the war, I
16 engaged in a different activity. I didn't work on communications that
17 were transmitting messages but, rather, I was capturing signals,
18 intercepting signals, actually capturing messages on the signals equipment
19 used by the other side.
20 JUDGE RIAD: In this last position, you were, as you said, among
21 the average.
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE RIAD: Now, also in one of the answers to Defence counsel, I
24 think he asked you, if the opposing party was aware of being intercepted,
25 they would be intentionally giving you some information on an open line.
1 You apparently agreed that they would be aware, but then you said that
2 they did not engage in any deception. How do you know that they did not
3 engage in any deception? How did you judge that, to give you false
4 information since they knew that they were intercepted?
5 A. Yes, they knew --
6 JUDGE RIAD: Was there any way of them finding out?
7 A. We did not do that. There was another group for analysis. They
8 would receive information from different quarters, from many sides, and
9 then they would make jokes to cover up things a little. But one could
10 feel that immediately. When they had something important to say and they
11 had to say it on that telephone line, they would try to cover it up in a
12 way to -- but basically we still knew what they were talking about.
13 JUDGE RIAD: That would explain what you said when you said they
14 did not engage in any deception. That was a categorical estimation, that
15 their information was genuine. So they did engage in deception and you
16 had to analyse it and to check it.
17 A. I didn't check these things. If there was information that I
18 would take down, it would be sent on to the team for the processing of
19 information, and they would have information from the ground and from
20 other locations and they would decide what to do with it, to whom to send
21 it. That was not my part of the work; that was not my job.
22 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad
25 Madam Judge Wald.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and English transcripts.
1 JUDGE WALD: Two questions. One, you talked about a group that
2 analysed the communications that were transcribed in light of other
3 information they might have. Was that group in the command headquarters
4 or in your unit? The one you just talked about a few seconds ago. You
5 said there was another group that would analyse the reports, in light of
6 other information they might have to figure out their significance. Was
7 that in your unit or was that after the reports were sent ahead to the
9 A. That group was in the command of the 2nd Corps, and they engaged
10 in those activities over there. Our duty was just to provide the raw
12 JUDGE WALD: My second question is a more general one. In many,
13 many of these communications, including -- well, mostly 326, but some in
14 even 327 that you identify, we have many of the little dots meaning that
15 you didn't hear, legibly, those. Can you give us some general notion in
16 your experience of what was the cause mostly of these gaps? Was it mostly
17 interference with the signal or that the speaker's voice might go in and
18 out, or what was the usual reason why there would be these gaps in the
19 middle of the conversations?
20 A. These gaps in conversations would occur because usually one
21 speaker could be heard better. On occasion both could be heard well. But
22 this was due to the system of work of the relay device. It transmits on
23 one frequency and receives on another, and that is why that usually we
24 could only hear one speaker well.
25 The three dots at the beginning of a conversation -- that is what
1 I would usually write down -- meant that the conversation was already
2 ongoing when I ran into it, and later on the dots mean that I can't hear
3 the participant or I can't understand him. And it would happen that there
4 would be some other interference, a transmitter nearby or something.
5 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge
8 Witness, I too have some questions for you.
9 For example, Exhibit 326 makes mention of a name, "Mane." From
10 your experience, did you know who Mane was?
11 A. Mane, I can't remember now, but we knew quite a large number of
12 them at the time. We would take down the names, the names of the superior
13 officers, of various brigades. Just now I can't remember because "Mane"
14 is certainly a nickname. It could be Manojlovic or something like that
15 but I don't know now. Other people did these things. When processing the
16 information, they kept their own notes and archives.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So there were nicknames, but did
18 people also use names in addressing each other which were not their proper
19 names? I don't know if you can understand what I mean.
20 A. We do use nicknames a lot in our part of the world; sometimes they
21 are based on the surname and sometimes on the first name or something
22 else. They are derived from names or something else, but they're quite
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another question, you spoke
25 about the intensity of work. There was a lot, there was less. For the
1 period while you worked on this job, do you have an idea which was the
2 more intensive period and the less intensive period?
3 A. That depended on the situation. For instance, the demand for
4 fuel, if there was a high demand for personnel or some other material,
5 then there would be more conversations, depending on the intensity of the
6 activities on the ground.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] For example, when there were
8 military operations going on, from your experience could you infer
9 something? There was a lot of traffic, a lot of work, very intensive
10 communications, and after an operation would there be an easing, a
11 reduction, or not?
12 A. Well, you see, at the beginning of the war there were more open
13 lines, and when operations were engaged in they spoke a lot on open
14 lines. Then General Mladic, for instance, would be allowed directly on
15 the radio, directly by mistake, but nobody asked us about it. And as soon
16 as it was aired, he realised that this was aired, they took measures to
17 protect themselves, but they couldn't always achieve that. So by mistake
18 our command aired what -- this message by General Mladic.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. How could the
20 speakers know that they were being intercepted?
21 A. They could hear it. They could hear it on the radio. And the
22 standard procedure in the JNA was to take it as granted that the enemy was
23 listening in. This was always a standard warning issued to everyone, "the
24 enemy is listening."
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My last question, Witness Y. In
1 your workplace, you received empty notebooks, clean notebooks to begin to
2 write into. Was there a certain frequency, a regularity? Did you receive
3 one at a time, five, or ten at a time? How did it happen?
4 A. That depended. Sometimes we had more notebooks, sometimes less.
5 So then the commander would be informed that for the next shift he should
6 bring clean notebooks. And they would bring them anyway, a couple of
7 notebooks just in case, so that they would be available. Tapes would be
8 taken away regularly.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you ever start a completely
10 clean notebook? Did you ever write down the first conversation in a
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When that happened, did the
14 notebook already have anything written on it or not?
15 A. Yes. In the exhibits shown here, there's a notebook with my
16 handwriting at the beginning, and there's a date at the beginning of the
17 conversation, though that wasn't my custom to write down the date, because
18 everything would be typed in the computer and there was always a header
19 with the date. So the date would be automatically indicated on the
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness Y, but I'm not
22 talking about the date that you wrote. I'm going you whether there was
23 anything else written in that notebook by someone else when you received
25 A. Oh, yes. Yes.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What? What was written in the
2 notebook before you started writing in it?
3 A. The previous conversations. My colleague who was working before
4 me, he would write things down in that notebook.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm afraid you haven't
6 understood me. I'm talking about a notebook that you started, that you
7 were the first to write in the first message. So other colleagues haven't
8 yet had occasion to write in it. You received a new, clean notebook to be
9 used by you first.
10 So I'm asking you, before you or anyone else started such a new,
11 clean notebook, was anything written in that notebook that reached you,
12 when the notebook reached you that was already written in it when the
13 notebook reached you? Have you understood now?
14 A. Yes. Yes, I understand now. The notebooks were registered, and
15 this was done by a man from the company -- in the company down in the
16 command. He would register that notebook under an ordinal number. So
17 there would be a logbook of registered notebooks, and there would be a
18 date and the number under which the notebook was registered.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you have any idea what he
20 wrote, what he wrote and why?
21 A. He wrote down that that notebook has been registered so that it
22 shouldn't be thrown away and it has to be returned, and there is a date
23 when it was registered, and upon receiving it, he would probably put down
24 the date when he got it back.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. When you say that there
1 was a number, a registration number, that registration number, was it in
2 order, in some sort of an order?
3 A. They determined the numbers, so I really don't know. I can have a
4 look at the number again if you like to see whether there is any logic in
5 it, but I really don't know. Someone else did that. It was someone
6 else's responsibility, not mine.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. You have
8 answered our questions. Thank you very much, Witness Y.
9 We all deserve a break, and you too. Thank you very much for
10 coming to the Tribunal, and we wish you a happy journey home.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please don't move just yet. You
13 are under protective measures.
14 We have going to have a half-hour break. I apologise to the
15 interpreters and the other staff for taking a little longer, but we will
16 make up for it with a half-hour break.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 --- Recess taken at 11.12 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.45 a.m.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can you
22 hear me?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can hear you.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the
25 solemn declaration that the usher is going to hand you.
1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
2 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS Z
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Would you please take a look at
7 the piece of paper being shown to you and tell us whether your name is
8 written on it. Give us a yes or no answer, please.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you feel comfortable and at
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just take things easy. You're
14 now going to be answering questions put to you by -- I think it's
15 Mr. Harmon.
16 Mr. Harmon, your witness.
17 MR. HARMON: Thank you. Good morning, Mr. President and Your
18 Honours; good morning to my colleagues.
19 Examined by Mr. Harmon:
20 Q. Good morning, Witness Z. I'm going to be calling you by that
21 designation because today you are a protected witness.
22 Witness Z, let me begin by asking you: What is your nationality?
23 A. By nationality I am a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 Q. And what is your religious faith?
25 A. My religion is Islam. That is to say, I am a Muslim.
1 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me a second. Here it says "Witness Y
2 resumed." It is not Witness Y anymore. Just at the top.
3 MR. HARMON: That should be corrected. It should be Witness Z.
4 We're starting with Witness Z and not resuming with Witness Y.
5 MR. HARMON:
6 Q. Witness Z, could you tell the Judges about your educational
7 background, please?
8 A. Yes. I went to primary school in my native town of Banovici,
9 secondary school as well, mechanical and technical secondary school. And
10 I did two years at the faculty of technology. I wasn't able to continue
11 my studies for financial reasons.
12 Q. Let me focus on your two years at faculty for technology. What
13 kind of subjects did you take in that curriculum?
14 A. I had a lot of chemistry, organic, inorganic, analytical, general,
15 then mathematics, the technology of materials, physics, English, and so
17 Q. Now, Witness Z, did that educational background in any way assist
18 you in the use of radios, or was it something that was unrelated to
19 technical abilities with a radio?
20 A. It was unrelated with technical abilities.
21 Q. Let me focus, Witness Z, on your interest in radio. At some point
22 in your life, did you develop an interest in radios and did you
23 participate in amateur radio activities?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when did you develop an interest in radios and can you
1 describe that interest to the Judges, please?
2 A. Yes. When I was 17, a friend of mine took me to a radio ham club,
3 and when I saw all the devices and installations there, and when I saw
4 that you could talk to many people in the world via radio and have
5 friends, I took a liking to it, and the rest came of itself. Until the
6 end of the war, I worked in the -- the radio club was not active, and
7 since then I haven't worked in the club.
8 Q. Now, while you were pursuing your interest in amateur radio, did
9 you receive a certificate of some sort? What type of certificate was it?
10 A. Yes. First of all, I had to sit for the
11 C category exam. You had to be able to know a certain number of Morse
12 code per minute, then the rudiments of electronics and basic knowledge in
13 radio devices.
14 As I progressed and learnt more, I went on to sit for my B
15 category examination, and that offered -- afforded me the possibility of
16 having my own station, and I had to have more signs, 100 to 150 signs,
17 than for the previous category, with a tolerance of error 2 to 5 per cent,
18 and a greater knowledge of electrical engineering.
19 Q. So you did, in fact, receive your
20 B certificate after sitting for the examination?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Now, let me take you to your JNA service. Did you serve in the
23 JNA, and in what parts of what years did you perform that service?
24 A. Yes. I served the army of the former Yugoslavia from 1981 to
1 Q. Did you specialise in your military service during that period of
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What speciality did you have and can you explain it to the Judges,
6 A. Yes. I became a signalman on the basis of the knowledge that I
7 had gained while I was a civilian, and in the signals unit, I was a radio
8 telegraphist and a radio teleprinter.
9 Q. And during that period of time did you become familiar with JNA
10 radio equipment that was at your availability in your unit?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, following your active service in the JNA, which concluded in
13 1982, did you continue to serve in the JNA reserves?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And during the period of service in the reserves, did you receive
16 additional training in the use of radio equipment?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So in addition to receiving additional training, did you continue
19 to use the radio equipment that was being used by the JNA at that period
20 of time?
21 A. Yes, at military exercises.
22 Q. I want to direct your attention now to the war in Bosnia, and let
23 me ask you if in 1992 you became a member of the Electronic Reconnaissance
24 and Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit, a part of the Bosnian Muslim military
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In that capacity, were your duties and responsibilities to
3 intercept and monitor enemy radio communications?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you serve in a unit of this type until the end of the war?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Now, from the time period we're talking about, which
8 is 1992 until the end of the war, whose enemy communications were you
10 A. I was intercepting and monitoring communication between the Army
11 of Republika Srpska.
12 MR. HARMON: Can I have the Exhibit 138 put on the ELMO please.
13 It's a map.
14 Q. And while this map is being given to the usher, the small map,
15 please, I'll ask you, Witness Z, at what location or locations did you
16 conduct your military anti-electronic warfare service. What were the
17 locations in Bosnia where you conducted this activity?
18 A. The first location was called Lipik, which is one of the peaks of
19 Mount Majevica. Then I was transferred to the Okresanica location, which
20 is a little higher up from the previous one and had better -- there were
21 better conditions for signal reception.
22 After Okresanica, during the war, I was transferred to the
23 location of Par Selo village, Par Selo, and I stayed there for about a
24 year. And my last location was on Konjuh.
25 Q. So the record is clear, is the first location you mentioned,
1 Lipik, a short distance away from Okresanica?
2 A. About a kilometre, as the crow flies.
3 Q. Witness Z, I'd like you to direct your attention to Prosecutor's
4 Exhibit 138, and with the pointer, could you please point to the location
5 Okresanica and to Konjuh.
6 A. This is the Okresanica location and this is the Konjuh location.
7 MR. HARMON: For the record, the witness pointed to the green dot
8 at the top with "Okresanica" next to it and the green dot on the left side
9 of the map with "Konjuh" next to it. Thank you, Witness Z.
10 Mr. Usher, I'm finished with that exhibit, thanks.
11 Q. Witness Z, you served at Okresanica from January or February of
12 1993 until spring of 1994; is that correct?
13 A. Yes. I can't tell you the exact month because it was a long time
14 ago, but it was thereabouts, at the beginning of the year.
15 Q. When did you start your service at Konjuh?
16 A. I was transferred to Konjuh in the spring of 1995.
17 Q. And you remained at that location until the end of the war; is
18 that correct?
19 A. That's correct, yes.
20 Q. Now, let's turn your attention to the point in time when you
21 served in Konjuh. First of all, in what capacity did you serve at that
23 A. At the Konjuh location, I was an operator for monitoring devices.
24 Q. What does that mean?
25 A. That means that I worked in a shift, and I had some headsets and
1 some equipment and I followed scanning devices that scanned memorised
2 frequencies. If there was a conversation, I would tape it on a tape
4 Q. We'll get to the specific procedures in detail in just a minute.
5 How many men do you recall working on a single shift at Konjuh?
6 A. In my shift there was sometimes five men, sometimes six.
7 Q. Do you remember how long the shifts were when one group of men
8 would be at Konjuh before another group of men would replace them?
9 A. Yes, I do. From seven days. Sometimes the shifts lasted 10 days,
10 even 15 days.
11 Q. Now, Witness Z, the events I'm going to be asking you about took
12 place five years ago. You may or may not remember some of the details,
13 but do you remember that in enemy transmissions that you were intercepting
14 call signs were used, call signs that were associated with specific
15 military units in the VRS?
16 A. Yes, I remember.
17 Q. As you sit here today, do you remember the call signs and what
18 units they were specifically associated with?
19 A. I couldn't tell you that today. So much time has gone by.
20 Q. Witness Z, let me now turn to a more detailed analysis of the
21 procedures that you used as an intercept operator, and if you would kindly
22 and succinctly describe the procedure that you used, starting with putting
23 on your headphones and finally delivering the end product to your higher
24 command. Could you just take us through that step by step, please.
25 A. The first thing was the headphones which I placed on my ears, and
1 they were linked to the receptor, receiving device, receiver, and they had
2 memorised frequencies that were listened in to. That device was linked to
3 the tape recorder, the recording device. That means that when the signal
4 appears on the device, it turns the frequency until it reaches the
5 pertinent one; then the apparatus stops there for several seconds. We
6 have to depress a button and fix it, fix the frequency by depressing a
7 button, and immediately after that we press the button on the tape
8 recorder for it to start recording.
9 When the conversation is over, we switch off the tape recorder,
10 take a pencil and notebook, and record/transcribe the conversation that
11 was taped on the tape.
12 After that the notebook with the recorded conversation is handed
13 over to the person in charge of sending it further on.
14 Q. Then what would happen?
15 A. I didn't understand your question.
16 Q. Would the notebook be handed over to somebody to transmit the
17 captured conversation?
18 A. Yes, that's what I just said. It is handed to somebody to
19 transmit the captured message which is typed out on the computer, coded,
20 and via computer transmission, it is sent to the centre.
21 Q. Now, in the mechanical process that you've described of first
22 getting the signal and then the pressing of the button on the tape
23 recorder, was there information, albeit a brief amount of information,
24 that was not recorded on the tape recorder?
25 A. That is possible, yes. That did happen on occasion.
1 Q. Was that information that was not captured on the tape captured by
2 the intercept operator in some form so it could be inserted into the
3 information that would be reduced to writing?
4 A. Yes, because while the device scans 23 or whatever frequencies, it
5 takes a little time, and they might have introduced themselves and said
6 who was talking. But it was important for us to receive the heading, the
7 introduction, and then we wrote it down in the notebook, although it might
8 not exist on the tape recorder. It wasn't captured on the tape recorder,
9 but we heard it a split second later so it exists in our heads and is then
10 recorded in the notebook.
11 Q. Now, were efforts made if there was a doubt about what was said on
12 the captured enemy communication to listen to it again in an attempt to
13 ascertain what was being said?
14 A. Yes, often.
15 Q. If you were unable to decipher the communication, the word or part
16 of the sentence, how was that reflected in the handwritten notes that the
17 operator put in a notebook?
18 A. If it was not possible to hear a word or several words, we would
19 either place a question mark or three dots so that anybody reading would
20 know that there is a portion missing.
21 Q. Now, I want to focus your attention on one conversation today.
22 MR. HARMON: I need the assistance of the usher, if I could.
23 Mr. Usher, if you would show the witness the original notebook and also
24 place before him Prosecutor's Exhibit 296, and I'm referring to tab 18 in
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and English transcripts.
1 For Your Honours' and counsel's reference, we're going to be
2 referring to a conversation in this notebook that is found at page
3 00804535 and runs through 537.
4 Also, Mr. Usher, if I could have the witness shown Prosecutor's
5 Exhibit 328, which is an excerpt from the notebook, and place that before
7 Exhibit 328 is the conversation that is found on the page that I
8 just mentioned to Your Honours.
9 Q. First of all, Witness Z, did we conduct an exercise in my office?
10 Did I show you the original notebook and ask you to go through it page by
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did I ask you to see if you could identify this notebook as a
14 notebook that came from Konjuh?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. After inspecting this notebook, is this a notebook that comes from
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did I also ask you to make a comparison between the original
20 notebook and the copy that's found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 296 to see if
21 it was a faithful copy?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. After reviewing and comparing the original notebook to the copy,
24 is Prosecutor's Exhibit 296 a faithful and true copy of the original
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, if I can have back the original
3 notebook, please. Mr. Usher, if you would assist the witness, please, in
4 the notebook, turning to page -- the last three digits are 535, and if you
5 could also give the witness Prosecutor's Exhibit 328, the B/C/S version.
6 Q. Witness Z, the handwriting in Prosecutor's Exhibit 328, the B/C/S
7 version, and the handwriting that's found on page 00804535 through 537, is
8 that your handwriting?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is this a conversation that you personally intercepted?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you copy the conversation that you intercepted into this
13 particular notebook?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Let's turn our attention to this particular conversation, then,
16 and I'm referring to Prosecutor's Exhibit 328. On the top of the
17 conversation, two people are identified. Who are they?
18 A. Colonel Ljubo Beara and General Krstic.
19 Q. Now, how is it that they were identified? How did you come to
20 that conclusion?
21 A. They introduced themselves previously. That's the case that I
22 explained earlier on, that it's possible that the speakers introduced
23 themselves but that that isn't caught on the tape.
24 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'm prepared to read this conversation
25 into the record, if I could, and I will start now with the following:
1 "255.850 MHz, 1000 hrs, (Krle)
2 Colonel Ljubo Beara - General Krstic"
3 Q. Let me stop right now before I continue my reading. On the
4 left-hand column of the notes that you prepared, there is a "B" and a
5 "K." Can you tell us which of the speakers "B" refers to?
6 A. "B" refers to Colonel Ljubo Beara, one of the speakers.
7 Q. And "K," the letter "K"?
8 A. "K" is General Krstic, the other speaker.
9 Q. May I continue now with reading this exhibit.
10 "B: General, Furtula didn't carry out the
11 boss's order.
12 K: Listen, he ordered him to lead out a
13 tank, not a train.
14 B: But I need 30 men like it was ordered.
15 K: Take them from Tasic or Sladojevic, I
16 can't pull anybody out of here for you.
17 B: But I don't have any here. I need them
18 today and I'll give them back tonight.
19 Krle, you have to understand. I can't
20 explain it to you.
21 K: I'll disturb everything on this axis if I
22 pull them out, and a lot depends on him.
23 B: I need 15 to 30 men with Boban Indzic. I
24 can't do anything.
25 K: Ljubo, this /line/ is not secure.
1 B: I know, I know.
2 K: I'll see what I can do, but I'll disturb
3 a lot. Please, you have /some men/ down
4 there at Nastic's and Blagojevic's.
5 B: But I don't have any. If I did, I
6 wouldn't be asking for" --
7 I'm sorry.
8 "B: If I did, I wouldn't still be asking for
9 the 3rd day.
10 K: Check with Blagojevic, take his Red
12 B: They're not there, only 4 of them are
13 still there. They took off, fuck'em,
14 they're not there any more.
15 K: I'll see what I can do.
16 B: Check it out and have them go to
18 K: I can't guarantee anything. I'll take
20 B: Krle, I don't know what to do any more.
21 K: Ljubo, then take those MUP /Ministry of
22 Interior/ guys from up there.
23 B: No, they won't do anything, I talked to
24 them. There's no other solution but for
25 those 15 to 30 men with Indzic. That were
1 supposed to arrive on the 13th but didn't.
2 K: Ljubo, you have to understand me too, you
3 guys fucked me up so much.
4 B: I understand, but you have to understand
5 me too, had this been done then, we wouldn't
6 be arguing it over it now.
7 K: Fuck it, now I'll be the one to blame.
8 B: I don't know what too do. I mean it,
9 Krle. There are still 3.500 parcels that I
10 have to distribute and I have no solution.
11 K: I'll see what I can do."
12 And that ends my reading of the exhibit.
13 Now, Witness Z, did I ask you if you could, five years after the
14 events, date this particular conversation, and were you able to attach a
15 specific date to this conversation?
16 A. You did ask me, but I was not able to remember the exact date.
17 Q. Did I then ask you to conduct an exercise in reviewing the
18 notebook, Prosecutor's Exhibit 296, in an attempt to find a date indicated
19 in the notebook prior to the conversation that I have just read and
20 following the conversation that I have just read?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you do so?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did you locate two dates?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. HARMON: Could I have the usher, please, turn for the witness
2 and the page -- the last three digits in this exhibit are 528. So towards
3 the front of the notebook, please.
4 Q. Now, directing your attention to page 00804528 of Prosecutor's
5 Exhibit 296, do you see a date of 11/7/95 on that page?
6 A. Just one moment, please. It says "528," not"258", the last three
7 numbers, the last three digits.
8 Q. 528. If I misspoke, then it should be 00804528. And if you could
9 come down four lines from the top. Do you see a date?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What is that date?
12 A. The 11th of July, 1995.
13 Q. Whose handwriting is that?
14 A. This is my handwriting.
15 Q. All right.
16 MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, if you could turn the pages to
17 00804537. Do you see a date on that page?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What is that date?
20 A. The 16th of July, 1995.
21 Q. And that date appears on the same page where the end of the
22 conversation that I read into record appears; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So is it fair to say that this conversation that is found -- that
25 you recorded, was recorded sometime between the 11th of July, 1995 and the
1 16th of July, 1995?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now I'd like to show you the next --
4 MR. HARMON: I'm finished with both of those exhibits, Mr. Usher.
5 And I would like to have Prosecutor's Exhibit 329 -- actually, if you
6 leave 328 there in front of the witness, that single sheet of paper, and
7 if I could have 329 distributed to the Judges and to counsel and shown to
8 the witness.
9 Q. Witness Z, can you tell me what this Prosecutor's Exhibit 329 is,
10 in your opinion?
11 A. This is a computer recording of the conversations we transmitted.
12 Q. Now, there are some differences, are there not, between the
13 notebook, the conversation that you recorded in the notebook, and the
14 transmission that is found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 329? Isn't that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And while the substance of the two conversations is the same, let
18 me direct you to some of the differences in this exhibit and 328.
19 Now, in Prosecutor's Exhibit 328, which is the notebook, on the
20 fourth line -- I'm sorry. Let me count these lines. On the second "K"
21 from the top on page 535, you will notice in upper case letters the words
22 "Tasica and Sledojevica," and in Prosecutor's Exhibit 329, which is the
23 transmitted copy, you'll notice the words "Nastic and Blagojevic." So
24 there's a difference there; isn't that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I'll show you one other difference, although there are some other
2 differences. I'll show you one other difference which is the last line of
3 the intercepted communication, and if you'd turn to page 0804537, the last
4 line, "K", there is a difference, is there not, between what is in the
5 notebook and what is on the written typed transmission; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And indeed, the -- in looking at the translation, one can see that
8 in the typewritten version that was transmitted there are two words that
9 appear in the typewritten version at the beginning that do not appear in
10 the handwritten version. Isn't that correct?
11 A. Would you repeat that question once again, please.
12 Q. Yes. Would you look at the last line in both the typed
13 transmission and the handwritten -- and your handwritten intercept.
14 There's a difference between those two sentences, isn't there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. For the record, on 00912 -- I'm sorry. I'm sorry. On 00727630,
17 which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 329/B, there are the words "jebi ga," which
18 in the English translation -- pardon my language -- are the words "fuck
19 it," and those words do not appear in your handwritten notebook, do they?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The rest of the sentence, "I'll see what I can do," remains the
22 same; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. My question to you, Witness Z, is: Can you account for these
25 differences? Do you know why there are differences?
1 A. After so many years, no.
2 Q. Can you -- I understand after this many years it's difficult to
3 reconstruct a single conversation in this sense, but can you suggest any
4 possibilities as to why there might be differences between the typewritten
5 text and the handwritten notebook version of the same conversation?
6 A. There is a possibility that the man who is doing the typing,
7 because he can't understand something, can ask us to relisten to the tape,
8 several of us, because he can't read the handwriting or because something
9 is not clear. Then we listen to the tape and try to clear things up.
10 Q. But as you sit here today, five years after this conversation was
11 intercepted by you, you can't tell these Judges exactly why there is a
12 difference that appears between these two versions of the same
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. HARMON: Witness Z, thank you very much.
16 Mr. President, I have finished my examination. Thank you.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
18 Mr. Harmon.
19 Witness Z, you are now going to answer questions which Mr. Visnjic
20 is going to put to you, please.
21 Mr. Visnjic, your witness.
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic:
24 Q. Witness Z, during your examination-in-chief you explained to the
25 Prosecutor that during your military service you underwent certain
1 training in signals equipment.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Within the framework of that training, were you trained for
4 interception and monitoring enemy lines?
5 A. No.
6 Q. During your statement to the Prosecutor you said that in 1992 you
7 joined the forces of the BH army. Was your first assignment the
8 monitoring of enemy radio communications?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In the course of your work in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did
11 you have any specialist training there for this kind of work?
12 A. During the war?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. During the war, in 1994, I attended a course for one month in
16 Q. At that course were you taught the procedure for safekeeping
17 documents which were used as a record of the intercepted conversations?
18 A. I really can't remember that.
19 Q. You worked at several locations during the war.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was the procedure of data processing the same at all those
23 A. More or less, but that depended on the operator; whatever method
24 he found easier, better, and quicker.
25 Q. Did you have any rules regarding the safekeeping of these
1 documents, these notebooks or any other documents that you were issued?
2 A. No.
3 Q. While you were working or serving, rather, in the JNA, were you
4 familiar with the operations of RRU1 and RRU800?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In view of the conversations we have referred to contained in
7 Exhibit 329, could you tell the Court from what device was this
8 conversation transmitted? On what device was it transmitted?
9 A. On RRU1.
10 Q. The RRU1 receiver enables communication between two participants
11 in a telephone conversation; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. RRU1 is a monochannel device; is that right?
14 A. Yes. Do you mean does it only have one frequency for transmission
15 or can it use several frequencies? Do you mean can it use several
16 frequencies or only one? Was that your question?
17 Q. My question is whether the RRU has several channels.
18 A. I understand better now. On the intercepting device, we had
19 frequencies not channels. The frequency on which the telephone signal is
20 transmitted, we didn't have an RRU1 on us, we had a more modern monitoring
21 device, more modern than the RRU1.
22 Q. But do you know whether that RRU1 can transmit on several
24 A. Yes, it can transmit on several frequencies depending on how we
25 adjust it.
1 Q. But when you have two participants in a conversation, they're on
2 one channel.
3 A. Oh, no. One is the receiving frequency and the other is the
4 transmitting frequency; that is how a duplex system works. However --
5 Q. But is that all within one channel?
6 A. There are two channels, the transmitting and receiving
7 frequencies. There are two different channels; however ...
8 Q. Is it possible in that case for you to hear only one of the
9 participants in the conversation and not the other?
10 A. It is possible if the location is at a low altitude.
11 Q. If you have two different frequencies, your scanning device stops
12 at one; is that correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And it is on that frequency that you hear the transmission, on
15 that frequency.
16 A. We hear both participants at my location.
17 Q. On the same frequency.
18 A. On the same frequency, because it is the main telephone signal.
19 Q. So on the same channel for you, from your standpoint.
20 A. Yes. One is heard less well and the other better depending on the
21 atmospheric conditions and if the antennas are good and if they are turned
22 in the right direction.
23 Q. Thank you. Tell me something, you described to the Prosecutor in
24 detail the procedure of noting down the intercepted messages, how they are
25 recorded on tape. My question is as follows: After a conversation has
1 been noted down in the notebook, you handed that notebook to whom for
3 A. To the person whose responsibility it was to type it out on the
4 computer and to forward it on.
5 Q. Did that person have any right to change the text written by you?
6 A. Only with our approval or after another listening to the tape but
7 not on his own.
8 Q. Did that person have any right to add something that was not
9 written down in your notebook?
10 A. Only with our approval, the person who was working on it and the
11 others, after relistening to the tape.
12 Q. So was that oral agreement or written?
13 A. In most cases it was oral, because this was all done in haste. He
14 would be typing; we would be next to him often dictating it to him. There
15 were several occasions when this happened.
16 Q. Tell me, please, when working on Mount Konjuh, you were issued
17 certain notebooks into which you noted down the conversations; is that
19 A. We never signed to confirm receipt of those notebooks but we did
20 receive them.
21 Q. Can you recognise who wrote down the date of registration of those
23 A. I tried but I was unable to remember.
24 Q. Could it have been one of your colleagues in the station?
25 A. Yes. Usually the operator would place the date if he has time.
1 But we couldn't be too pedantic because of the haste and the amount of
2 work. There were few personnel and quite a number of devices.
3 Q. You described to the Prosecutor a procedure whereby a conversation
4 begins on the radiolink but the tape recorder is not turned on
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In that case you said that the very beginning of the conversation
8 is memorised and entered in the notebook later.
9 A. Yes, it is memorised and taken down two seconds later if it has
10 been recognised with certainty.
11 Q. In view of the conversation that was discussed in Exhibits 328 and
12 329 of the Prosecution, can we agree that in this conversation General
13 Krstic was identified on the basis of something that was not on tape.
14 A. On the basis of something that was in my head a couple of seconds
16 Q. Can we also agree that the first word taped is the word "General"
17 in the vocative?
18 A. I don't have it in front of me.
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to show the
20 witness Exhibit 328/C.
21 A. In haste, frequently we couldn't write down "General, how are
22 you? How's your wife and children?" and things like that, so we would
23 often start off from things that we ourselves thought we should start
24 with, that is, what was important as information.
25 Q. Well, was the word "General" on tape or not?
1 A. In my opinion, the word "General" was taped, was registered on
3 Q. In the course of work, you said that you had the discretionary
4 power to decide whether a conversation was more or less important; is that
6 A. It is correct.
7 Q. Also as part of that discretionary right, a decision was taken to
8 note down some conversations and to leave out others; is that true?
9 A. Yes, unimportant conversations were usually left out.
10 Q. This type of conversation that we have just referred to in
11 Exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit 328, was this type of conversation
12 classified as an important one?
13 A. This conversation was taped because a colonel, Ljubo Beara, and
14 General Krstic appear. They were very well-known figures at the time.
15 Q. So was it classified as an important conversation for that reason?
16 A. I cannot remember that now. What was important for us -- to take
17 note of the information. As for who would judge it to be important or
18 not, that was not our concern.
19 Q. In view of the nature of the conversation, the nature of the
20 conversation, I assume you made an effort to note down every word
21 accurately as taped. Is that correct?
22 A. We did our best to be as precise as possible. However, there are
23 many, many reasons why that was very difficult to achieve.
24 MR. VISNJIC: I would like to ask the usher to show the witness
25 Prosecution Exhibit 328/B and Prosecution Exhibit 328/C.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
14 and English transcripts.
1 Q. You have the handwritten and the typed version of the same
2 conversation in those two exhibits. My question is: Can you confirm in
3 any way that this Exhibit 329/B is what -- what your teleprinter operator
4 or typist typed at Mount Konjuh?
5 A. I cannot assert that with certainty. It was a long time ago, and
6 at the time I didn't even see this document.
7 Q. On the other hand, can you confirm that your colleague who was
8 working with you and you with him, in view of the nature of the
9 conversation, and you endeavoured to transcribe it as accurately as
10 possible in a typed version and to send it on to headquarters.
11 A. Yes, we tried. That is why we would relisten to the tape again if
12 that was asked of us by the operator.
13 Q. I should like to draw your attention to a difference in the one
14 but last sentence. In the typed text the word "packet" is given in
15 quotation marks. It is the one but last sentence in the handwritten text
16 as well. However, in the handwritten text, there are no quotation marks.
17 Can you explain the difference, please?
18 A. That was up to the typist, the person who was doing the typing.
19 Q. In the course of your duties on Mount Konjuh, did you have someone
20 in your group who was an analyst, who would analyse these texts?
21 A. At Konjuh there was no one who was specifically assigned to that
22 task, but if anyone had time, in order to facilitate his own work and for
23 his own purposes, he would try to analyse the text.
24 Q. Was the typist an analyst?
25 A. The typist had everything in computer lettering in one place, and
1 he could read it through, when he had time, to inform himself, because it
2 was much easier to do that from the typed version than from our
3 handwritten versions, if he wanted to.
4 Q. How many times a day, in the course of July, would you send
5 telegrams and messages? In the course of July 1995, did you send
6 telegrams and messages to the headquarters?
7 A. I couldn't tell you with any certainty. It was a long time ago.
8 Q. Can you remember the intensity of radio communication in July
10 A. The traffic was slightly more intense as compared to Srebrenica
11 and some other areas. I can't really remember any more. I don't even
12 remember the areas any more.
13 Q. Do you know where the tapes ended up, the tapes that were full
14 with the intercepted conversations? What was the procedure with them?
15 A. Well, at the end of shift a man would come from the base and take
16 them away, and then he would bring them back again for the next shift
17 because we didn't have sufficient tapes, so we had to reuse them.
18 Q. Do you know how many conversations could be recorded, how much
19 time could be recorded?
20 A. Well, it depended on the speed. This tape recorder had three
21 different speeds. If you switch over to the highest speed, then I don't
22 think more than an hour or an hour and a half of information. But if you
23 slow down the speed, then you could record two, two and a half, maybe
24 three hours on this one big tape, but then the quality is much poorer of
25 the signal because the tapes were old anyway. So we used the highest
2 Q. Did the tape -- could the tapes be used on both sides?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So one tape had a minimum of three hours, a maximum of six hours.
5 A. At the lowest speed, yes, which is one we used only occasionally.
6 To decipher a particular word to slow it down, but, otherwise, we used the
7 highest speed for recording.
8 Q. So you can't tell us definitely what the capacity of the tape was?
9 A. I could in those days but now I really can't.
10 Q. Witness Z, referring to this particular conversation, if you can
11 recall the conversation itself, and also on the basis of what we have
12 discussed so far, allow me to ask you a few final questions.
13 Can we agree that a part of this conversation was most probably
14 not recorded on tape?
15 A. I cannot tell you for sure.
16 Q. Can we also agree that the conversation that you took down by hand
17 differs from the typed version produced here as the telegram sent from
18 Mount Konjuh?
19 A. The substance is the same but some written errors exist.
20 Q. Can we also agree that you cannot confirm with any certainty that
21 this is the telegram that was sent? I'm talking about Exhibit 329/B, the
22 typed text.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So you cannot confirm --
25 A. I cannot say with certainty that is it, because I didn't see it
1 afterwards. What was important for me was this one.
2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further
3 questions. Thank you.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Harmon.
5 Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.
6 Mr. Harmon, any additional questions?
7 MR. HARMON: Just one.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.
9 Re-examined by Mr. Harmon:
10 Q. Witness Z, in reviewing both the notebook translation in English
11 and the translation in English of the typed -- teletyped version of the
12 same conversation, I see that Colonel Beara makes two references to the
13 individual with whom he is speaking.
14 One is, and I'll translate -- I'll read the English version of the
15 notebook: "Krle, I don't know what to do any more." And eight lines down
16 from that, essentially the third line from the bottom of the English
17 translation, there is again reference to someone: "I don't know what to
18 do. I mean it, Krle," and this sentence continues. That same reference
19 to Krle can be found in the typewritten version.
20 My question to you, Witness Z is: In your country, is "Krle" a
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know now whose nickname that was at the time you took this
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Whose nickname was Krle?
2 A. At that time, even we used to refer to him as Krle because he was
3 often called Krle on the phone.
4 Q. And who is "him"?
5 A. It is General Krstic.
6 MR. HARMON: I have no further questions. Thank you.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
8 Mr. Harmon.
9 Judge Fouad Riad.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE RIAD: I have just a question or two. Perhaps you
12 can answer them or you cannot. The one is exactly what the Prosecutor
13 asked you, because in this Exhibit 328/A, it starts with "General," as if
14 you are speaking to -- this is the same document, as if you are speaking
15 to someone of a higher grade in some kind of official way, and then it
16 proceeds with "Krle." So you mentioned that it's one and the same
18 Is it natural, normal that -- perhaps you know, you do not know.
19 You worked in the army. Is it normal that you can talk to a general and
20 then you can use his nickname and go from an official way to some kind of
21 familiar way?
22 A. Your Honour, with my friends, if they are friends, one can switch
23 over to calling him by nickname if you're acquaintances, friends.
24 JUDGE RIAD: So it was usual in -- even militarily speaking?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE RIAD: The other thing, there is no date. You put the hour
2 but not the date. As you said, it's been handled differently. But we can
3 detect the date here because they say some kind of -- eight, nine lines
4 from the bottom, Beara says that they were supposed to arrive on the 13th
5 but didn't, the 15 men or the 30 men. Then higher up he says, "I would
6 still be asking for them for the 3rd day." So if you count, you can know
7 that this document is on the 16th. Could you agree with that, the 16th
8 of -- you did not mention the month either, so it could be which month?
9 A. Your Honour, you are very quick to observe things. I wouldn't
10 have noticed that at all. I cannot tell you with certainty. I can just
11 say that it is possible that it could have been between those two dates,
12 the date before and the date after this conversation was intercepted by
14 JUDGE RIAD: And which month?
15 A. July.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Now, I refer also to a question asked of you by
17 Defence counsel concerning the word "parcels." In French it's called, I
18 think, "colis." I don't know what it is, the original word. It so
19 happens that in the typewritten version, it was put into quotation marks,
20 but in your handwritten it was not, and you said that the typewritten was
21 written by people who reflected on it.
22 Does the word "parcel" have any equivocal meaning? Could it mean
23 several things? Did it give way to certain doubts, and that's why they
24 put it between quotation marks? What was meant by "parcels" in the
25 original language? Did it have several meanings? "3.500 parcels."
1 A. Sir, I'm unable to say with certainty.
2 JUDGE RIAD: So you don't know why they put it between quotation
4 A. I don't know.
5 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. Thank you.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad
8 Judge Wald.
9 JUDGE WALD: Witness Z, I'm going to ask you just a couple of
10 questions about the notebook, not about the transcript later on.
11 I notice that in the notebook that we're dealing with, which is
12 Prosecutor's Exhibit 296, in which this conversation appears, every
13 conversation that I could see in there has got the time of day noted
14 down. It's got "10.20" or "10.30" or "11.00." Was there some reason why
15 always they put down the time of day but they didn't always put down the
16 day itself?
17 I mean, what has happened here is some days it has the day for the
18 16th, the 17th, the 18th, the 19th, the 20th, and the 23rd of July, but as
19 you pointed out in answering the Prosecutor's question, between the 11th
20 and the 16th, there appear to be no actual dates noted down. Was there
21 any routine for putting down the time of day but you didn't have a
22 responsibility to put down the day?
23 A. It all depended on the operator who was working. I, for instance,
24 often failed to put the date because I thought that the guy before me had
25 put the date; that is what I believed. That is one reason.
1 Could you repeat once again the last part of your question. I
2 didn't quite get it.
3 JUDGE WALD: It was basically the same question. I think you've
4 answered it. I was just saying, everybody always put down the time of day
5 and every single conversation that I could say has got the time of day.
6 They didn't always put down the day itself, and I just wondered if there
7 was any explanation. You just gave me the best one that you have.
8 My other question would be that in looking through this same
9 notebook and all the conversations, just looking at them, that were
10 recorded on the days that actually had dates, the 16th, the 17th, the
11 18th, the 19th, there would be six, seven conversations in one day,
12 approximately, average, in one day when the date was noted. But I notice
13 between the 11th and the 16th, which are the only two dates in which the
14 conversation we talked about appears, and that's five days, there were
15 only about -- I think I looked at five or six in that whole period.
16 Would there be some reason why in a five-day period there would
17 only be five or six conversations recorded, whereas in most of the
18 subsequent days there were six or seven every day? Was there anything you
19 can remember about those days that would explain why so few conversations
20 occurred as opposed to later days?
21 A. I think that there's no reason.
22 JUDGE WALD: This leads me to a question you've probably answered
23 but I want to make sure I've understood the answer. Was only one person
24 in your unit at a time using a single notebook? In other words, was only
25 one man listening and recording in a notebook at a single time? Two
1 people were not using two different notebooks at the same time, or were
3 A. No.
4 JUDGE WALD: Just one notebook at a time, right?
5 A. At a given time, only one notebook.
6 JUDGE WALD: My last question, then, and I just want to make
7 sure. In this notebook which has got these printed numbers at the top,
8 00804535, et cetera, do you happen to remember with this notebook whether
9 those numbers were at the top when you started using the notebook?
10 MR. HARMON: Judge Wald, perhaps I can clarify that. Those are
11 our evidence registration numbers. When we get that, that's our way of
12 introducing and logging into evidence accurately the pieces of evidence.
13 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you. That's fine.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge
16 Witness, if we look at Exhibit 328/C, I think you have it in front
17 of you -- I'm going to ask the usher; yes, I think so -- at the very
18 beginning you have written in brackets "Krle." Can you tell us why you
19 wrote that?
20 A. After so much time, I really don't know the exact reason.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But in any event you told the
22 Prosecutor that "Krle" was a nickname for General Krstic. Was there any
23 reason between the beginning of listening and the beginning of recording
24 that you would write something down so as not to forget, or you really
25 can't explain it?
1 A. That is possible because we referred to the General amongst
2 ourselves as Krle because that is what they called him whenever they spoke
3 about him, and we would use that name in our free time when talking about
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Further on, Witness
6 Z, you wrote "Colonel Ljubo Beara and General Krstic." Is that a note
7 that you made before you started taping, or did you add that at the end?
8 No, let me put that question differently because actually I'm asking you
9 two questions at the same time.
10 Between the moment when you begin listening and the moment you
11 begin taping, you might hear something. Was it possible to make a note of
12 what you heard and which you couldn't record?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it was possible to make such
15 a note. Would you make that note at the beginning of the transcription or
16 at the end, after having transcribed it?
17 A. It had to be at the beginning precisely because later on one might
18 forget. As soon as you hear the name, you take it down if you haven't
19 managed to tape it, because we had to be 100 per cent certain of that at
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So what you wrote down before
22 transcribing, "Colonel Ljubo Beara and General Krstic," does that have
23 anything to do with this taking of quick notes that I have referred to?
24 A. It could be, because "Colonel" is the rank, the name and surname.
25 Quite easily it could be.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] On that date, I don't know if
2 you remember well this transcription, but on that date, do you remember
3 whether you were in the company of other persons or whether you were
5 A. I don't remember. I'm sorry.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. You decoded "Krle." Are
7 you in a position to tell us what "Mane" stands for? It's not written in
8 your handwriting.
9 A. Mane, I'm afraid I cannot recollect just now.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You have no idea of having heard
11 this name on the communications lines. Never mind. If you can't
12 remember, you can't remember. You're not necessarily obliged to
14 Witness Z, you have answered our questions. We wish to thank you
15 for coming here, and we wish you success in your work and a safe journey
16 to your place of residence. Don't move for the moment. We're going to
17 have a break.
18 As for the exhibits, we always have the same problem and we'll
19 deal with them together, won't we, Mr. Harmon?
20 MR. HARMON: We will. We will tender them for admission into
21 evidence; however, recognising the Court's previous ruling, we will defer
22 the decision on that until later. Thank you.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're going to have a half-hour
24 break now and we will resume after that.
25 --- Recess taken at 1.18 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 1.50 p.m.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley.
3 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, good afternoon. The next witness
4 wishes to be heard by the Court in closed session. Merely, I'm announcing
5 it so that the public understand why we are, in fact, in closed session.
6 I've spoken to my learned friends Mr. Visnjic and Mr. Petrusic.
7 They are in agreement that this witness be heard in closed session. I can
8 give reasons if you wish, in closed session, as to why he wishes to be
9 heard, if you feel that is required.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Petrusic.
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. For purposes
12 of the record, there has been agreement between the Prosecution and the
13 Defence with respect to going into closed session for this witness.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us now go into
15 closed session. I'm saying this for the benefit of the public. Perhaps
16 we're going to continue in closed session or we'll ask for the reasons for
17 doing so. Thank you.
18 [Closed session]
13 pages 4486-4502 redacted –closed session
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
22 2.31 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
23 the 23rd day of June, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.