Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5742

1 Wednesday, 26 July 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, ladies and

7 gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth, the interpreters, legal

8 assistants, court reporters, the registrar; good morning, Mr. Harmon,

9 Mr. McCloskey, from the Prosecution. I see we have a new member of your

10 team today; good morning. Good morning, Defence counsel, Mr. Petrusic,

11 Mr. Visnjic; good morning, General Krstic.

12 We are going to resume our case. Good morning, madam. Can you

13 hear me? I didn't hear an answer. Can you hear me? Yes, I'm in front of

14 you. I'm talking to you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do hear you.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You're going to read the solemn

17 declaration that the usher is going to give to you, please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Do you want me to read

19 out loud?

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, please read it

21 loudly.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 WITNESS: WITNESS DD

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 5743

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated, please.

2 Can you get a little closer to the microphone, please.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the other microphone be switched on as

4 well.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is this a protected witness,

6 Madam Registrar?

7 Please look at that piece of paper to see simply whether your name

8 is written on it, and tell us yes or no if that is your name.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Are you

11 comfortable?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please feel at ease. You are

14 going to answer questions which, first, the Office of the Prosecutor is

15 going to put to you. I see Mr. Harmon on his feet, so Mr. Harmon is going

16 to question you. He is to your right, already on his feet.

17 MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours, good morning, and

18 good morning to my colleagues for the Defence.

19 I will not be leading this witness. I wanted to take the

20 opportunity to formally introduce my colleague, Ms. Magda Karagiannakas

21 who will be leading the examination of this witness and the next witness.

22 I thought it appropriate to formally introduce her since she is a new face

23 in this courtroom. Now I pass the floor to Ms. Karagiannakis.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Harmon. We

25 welcome with pleasure Ms. Magda. I think this will be her first official

Page 5744

1 address in the Tribunal, so I wish you welcome. You have the floor,

2 madam.

3 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Thank you, Your Honours, and good morning to

4 you and to the Defence.

5 Examined by Ms. Karagiannakis:

6 Q. Good morning, Witness.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. Can you tell me what your nationality is and what your religion

9 is?

10 A. I am a Muslim woman.

11 Q. In what year were you born?

12 A. In 1954.

13 Q. Were you born in a village in the Srebrenica municipality?

14 A. I was.

15 Q. What level of education did you achieve at school?

16 A. Four years of elementary school.

17 Q. Why didn't you proceed any further in your elementary schooling?

18 A. We didn't have the means, especially not for girls. Rather, boys

19 were educated to a higher level if possible.

20 Q. So what was the normal educational level for girls in your

21 village?

22 A. Well, so-so. Girls attended to the household and housework; they

23 engaged in knitting and embroidering and farming.

24 Q. How old were you when you got married?

25 A. I was going on to 23.

Page 5745

1 Q. Was it normal in your village for girls to get married at this age

2 or an earlier age or at a later age, if at all?

3 A. It was quite normal for girls to get married at that age; some at

4 a slightly earlier age. But from 23 on, it was reckoned that she was a

5 bit late.

6 Q. Now, when you got married, where did you go to live?

7 A. I went to the place where I stayed until the fall of Srebrenica.

8 Q. How far away from Srebrenica town was this village?

9 A. Not far. I don't know whether it was roughly half an hour on

10 foot.

11 Q. Now, did you have any children?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. Can you tell me how many children you have and when they were

14 born? But please don't tell me their names.

15 A. I had four children (redacted)

16 (redacted), about the end of December. Then the

17 second delivery was in 1981; actually, my third child, second delivery. I

18 had my fourth child in 1986, on the 21st of October.

19 Q. You had four children. Was it normal in your village to have

20 large families or small families, or were there many people without any

21 children at all?

22 A. Well, that was quite exceptional if people didn't have children at

23 all because they couldn't, but it was normal to have four, five, even six.

24 Q. Can you tell me how your husband was employed?

25 A. My husband worked in a company, transportation company called

Page 5746

1 (redacted) [phoen] In Potocari.

2 Q. And what did he do there?

3 A. My husband sometimes stood in for the manager, and sometimes he

4 worked as the boss in this company, as a kind of chief.

5 Q. And what was your job or role?

6 A. My role was to be a faithful housewife, to work hard, to take care

7 of the household and its needs, to look after the children, to do the

8 housework and the farming and the land, everything that was necessary. To

9 tend the livestock, as well.

10 Q. And who made the decisions in your family?

11 A. My husband was head of the family and the household and

12 everything, but we would consult if necessary and take decisions. If I

13 were to suggest something, he wouldn't humiliate me; we would decide

14 together. But he was the number one.

15 Q. Now, who out of your family dealt with the authorities and any

16 paperwork that you had to complete or your family needed?

17 A. That was all my husband's affair.

18 Q. And who out of your family managed the finances and the money?

19 A. My husband earned the money and brought it home, and then together

20 we would decide what we needed, what for, and how much, and we spent it

21 like that.

22 Q. Was the way in which your family was organised common or uncommon

23 in your village?

24 A. It was very common. That is how it was in all the households. We

25 were not in any way exceptional. That is how things were in our part of

Page 5747

1 the country and in the village specifically. One had to know who was in

2 charge, who was the head of the family, the head of the household and the

3 property, so nothing could be done without him.

4 Q. Now, did you have any Serb neighbours?

5 A. We did.

6 Q. And were they aware of the way in which your family and other

7 Muslim families were organised in your village?

8 A. Yes, they did know. We were friends, in fact. We went to have

9 coffee at each other's houses. And if we were working on something, we

10 would help one another. We would help them, and they would help us.

11 Q. Can you please describe for me your house, your land, and any

12 livestock that you may have had?

13 A. I can't really describe the land, I can just tell you that I had

14 more than a hundred dulums, a dulums being 900 square metres. I'm not

15 sure exactly how much, over a hundred, but I know that it was over a

16 hundred. Then I had up to 50 sheep, about 15 goats, sometimes as many as

17 a hundred chicken.

18 My house was 10 by 12 metres, and it had a first floor. There was

19 a separate entrance for the ground floor and a separate one for the first

20 floor.

21 Then the stable was about ten metres long. Next to the stable

22 there was a garage. In the stable we held cows and horses. We had a

23 separate stable for the sheep. Then we had a smoking shed for meat. Then

24 we had a plum area, six by two and a half, an outside toilet next to the

25 stable, then a chicken pen. That was separate.

Page 5748

1 Q. In general, how would you describe your standard of living at that

2 time?

3 A. How can I describe it? It was a kind of life one could only hope

4 for, the kind of life we had before the war. One had one's own land. You

5 could produce what you wanted: vegetables, fruit, tend livestock, dairy

6 products, everything. Whatever you needed, you had everything. My

7 husband was working in a public company. He brought home his earnings.

8 All we had to do was enjoy life.

9 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like to focus your attention on the events in

10 Srebrenica in July 1995. At that time the attack on Srebrenica started,

11 were you living with your husband and your sons in your home about three

12 kilometres from Srebrenica town?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And when the attack commenced, did you and your family leave your

15 home to go into the woods because shells had fallen near your house and

16 you feared for your safety?

17 A. Yes. We were sleeping that night. We knew that the UNPROFOR was

18 there, and we felt safe. We were working and sleeping normally, even

19 though they would shoot arbitrarily whenever they wanted because they were

20 close by, when they would see people in the fields.

21 So we were sleeping that night and early in the morning when the

22 shelling started, we were so scared, we jumped up. A shell fell close to

23 our house. The windows shattered. The whole house shook. There was so

24 much dust that we could hardly see one another through it.

25 Then we started screaming. The children jumped up in their

Page 5749

1 underwear, in their T-shirts. They started screaming. My husband threw

2 one by one of us out of the house to the right. There was a bit of

3 shelter there, and he said run into the vale that was below the house to

4 take shelter. And he helped one child after another get out of the house,

5 and then me. I was screaming. I grabbed him; I didn't want to go without

6 him. He said, "You go and I will follow."

7 I turned around. There was a line with clothes hanging out to

8 dry. I grabbed some things because the children had nothing on. And so

9 we ran through our own fields that were sown with wheat and maize, and we

10 ran and ran and the shells kept falling. When a child would trip in the

11 wheat or corn, I would scream thinking he had been hit, but it was all

12 right; they got up again.

13 And we got to the bottom of this creek, and then we sought shelter

14 in some kind of cellars and dugouts, but there were a lot of people there,

15 so there wasn't enough room. There were others that had got there before

16 us. And it was terrible.

17 Q. Witness, after a few days, did you and your family subsequently go

18 to Srebrenica town, to an UNPROFOR checkpoint?

19 A. We did. We were in the woods and along the streams for two or

20 three days. Then we got to Srebrenica. Because I had a lot of relatives

21 there who had been chased out of their homes earlier on, so I stayed with

22 them for awhile, hoping that Srebrenica would be protected by the people

23 who were protecting us.

24 When we saw that nothing would come of it, people started moving

25 towards UNPROFOR, where they were stationed. It's Vezionica or something;

Page 5750

1 that is what the name of the area was where UNPROFOR was stationed. We

2 all ran to them. You would think the whole world was there.

3 Q. At the time when you were at the checkpoint, did your husband and

4 older son leave you to try and escape Srebrenica through the woods?

5 A. Everyone was there. Men, women, children, all the young people.

6 I remember very well it was Tuesday. We were hoping, and I'm still

7 hoping, but we didn't know what was happening. People were crying,

8 screaming. Shots could be heard all the time. Somebody was trying to

9 comfort us, telling us, "Srebrenica will not fall. Don't take it too

10 hard. Don't panic," but nothing came of it.

11 They had some kind of makeshift radios; they were trying to listen

12 to the news. People were hoping that something would happen. Then one

13 could hear, for example, "We heard it on the radio. They will send the

14 aeroplanes now. They will save us now." I remember very well that

15 somebody had a very small radio set, but it was very unclear, everything I

16 heard.

17 At one point I heard that the situation in Srebrenica was calming

18 down and that people were going back to their homes. But then I realised

19 that nothing good would come of it because everybody had gathered around

20 the UNPROFOR base. People had started gathering there two or three days

21 before. They were all over the place, along the creeks, in the woods,

22 hiding in the rocks.

23 Q. So was that the place that your husband and your older son left

24 you to go to try and escape through the woods?

25 A. At that point, the shelling started again. The detonations were

Page 5751

1 so loud, one would think that the whole earth was on fire. Somebody

2 shouted out, "Nobody is ever going to come and save us." I remember some

3 people saying, "Let us go through the woods," and "The adult men should go

4 through the woods and women and children to UNPROFOR."

5 At that point I told my husband for the last time, "We're not

6 going to separate ourselves," and he told me not to worry. He told me to

7 take two of our children and leave, and he said that he would join other

8 men. But as we were talking, we could see that the shells were falling

9 around the UNPROFOR base and women and children were being hit and

10 wounded. Shells were falling on the building where people were staying.

11 It was such a chaos.

12 So we parted; my husband left with my eldest son. Then I realised

13 that some Dutch soldiers were going towards the building we called

14 Vezionica, and they were motioning to us to follow them. Then I thought,

15 thank God they are going to save us. They're calling us to join them, and

16 I was so sorry that my husband and son had left, that they had gone to the

17 other side, thinking that the soldiers would protect us.

18 So we followed them and we followed them in the direction of

19 Potocari. On the way to Potocari, and we were walking all the time, the

20 shells kept falling around us. Shots could be heard from all kinds of

21 weapons, I don't know which ones, but we kept walking. The trucks with

22 wounded people and other people that had boarded them were catching up

23 with us. That is how we managed to reach Potocari, where there was a

24 large number of old trucks and buses.

25 I think that the temperature was around 37 or 38 degrees

Page 5752

1 centigrade, and we took shelter behind the trucks. We were looking for

2 some shade and water but there was no water.

3 Q. Witness, is it true to say that you spent two nights in Potocari

4 out in the open with your sons?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And --

7 A. It was on Tuesday. On that day, we spent the evening there, the

8 whole day Wednesday, and we were still there on Wednesday evening. Then

9 there was this black Thursday that came. I remember it was around 10.00

10 or half past ten. We were still there, and at that time we reached the

11 line near the trucks where people were waiting to be transported.

12 Q. What happened then?

13 A. Could I please have a glass of water?

14 Things were getting worse and more horrible every day, every

15 hour. We spent sometime there on that day, but we didn't have anything to

16 eat, we didn't have any water to drink. We were looking for shelter and

17 water all the time, and that is how we spent that first day.

18 When the night fell finally --

19 Q. Witness --

20 A. -- we were looking for a place to shelter ourselves. Yes?

21 Q. Witness, you mentioned black Thursday. What happened on that

22 black Thursday when you were going to be transported out?

23 A. I was going to tell you the whole story from Tuesday to Thursday.

24 Can I do that?

25 Q. Witness, the Judges have already heard quite a lot of evidence in

Page 5753

1 this case about the events in Potocari, so for the purposes of my

2 examination, I'm not going to ask you questions about those days. The

3 Judges and the Defence may want to ask you questions about what happened

4 on those days, and you should answer those questions if they ask them, but

5 now I'd like you to focus your attention on the day that you were going to

6 be transported out of Potocari, please.

7 A. Okay. So when that black Thursday came, it was in the early

8 morning hours, and my child was still sleeping, the child that was about

9 to be snatched from me. So I woke him up, telling him that we should

10 leave, that we should go to the trucks. He got up. He wanted to eat -- I

11 asked him if he wanted to eat something but he couldn't take anything. He

12 complained about being dirty. He had some kind of white shirt on him. I

13 took off that shirt and then I cleaned him a little bit. I had some other

14 clothes in my bag and I gave it to him. I was trying to calm him down. I

15 told him that we would soon be transported to some place where we could

16 have a shower and wash ourselves a little bit.

17 Then we moved closer to the line. There was a kind of tape around

18 the area. There were a lot of people. We couldn't cross over. I

19 realised that my son was not feeling well, that he was about to faint.

20 Then I started looking for some water but there was no water anywhere.

21 There was a friend of ours there, an elderly man, and he said that he

22 would go and get some water for my son.

23 So he left, and then after he came back he was totally white in

24 his face. His wife was there. But he kept shaking his head like this and

25 he was telling his wife something about some horrible things that he had

Page 5754

1 seen. His wife wanted to know what he had actually seen, but he kept

2 crying and shaking his head. He said, "I saw everything. I saw heads and

3 limbs all over the place where I went to fetch some water." At that point

4 my child started trembling, and he was about to faint again.

5 Finally, it was our turn to approach the rope and we were finally

6 let through. I felt relieved. I thought to myself, thank God. After

7 everything I had seen, after I had seen people being separated, I kept

8 thanking God because we seemed to have passed through, me, my children,

9 and these friends of ours.

10 But then there was a line of their soldiers standing there on both

11 sides, on our left-hand side and on our right-hand side, and it was a kind

12 of column that they had formed, a kind of gauntlet, a corridor that we had

13 to pass through. We couldn't see the trucks or the buses. We had covered

14 a distance of about 100 metres but we still couldn't see any vehicles.

15 When we were halfway through, I heard a voice say, "Popovic, look

16 out for this one," and I immediately realised that he was referring to my

17 child. But then there were other children there as well. There was my

18 sister-in-law's child and some other people. Then the soldiers insisted

19 and I felt paralysed at one point. But I mustered some courage to whisper

20 in my son's ear and to tell him, "Don't worry, sonny. Just go. Keep

21 going."

22 We walked for about 50 metres, and then from the left column one

23 of their soldiers jumped out, and he spoke to my child. He told us to

24 move to the right side, and he told my son, "Young man, you should go to

25 the left side." And then he said, "Why me? I was born in 1981." But he

Page 5755

1 repeated what he had said, "You people should go to the right-hand side."

2 He had some kind of bags in his hand, and the soldier told him to

3 throw the bag to the right side and to go to the left, but I grabbed him

4 by his hand and I -- he kept repeating, "I was born in 1981. What will

5 you do with me? What do you want me do?" And then I begged them, I

6 pleaded with them. Why are you taking him? He was born in 1981. But he

7 repeated his order. And I held him so hard, but he grabbed him.

8 And then my son threw out that bag, and the soldier picked up the

9 bag and threw it on a pile on the right-hand side, and he took my son's

10 hand, and he dragged him to the left side. And he turned around, and then

11 he told me, "Mommy, please, can you get that bag for me? Could you please

12 get it for me?"

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam, please, take your time.

14 Take your time to calm down. We are here with you; we're listening to

15 you. Take your time.

16 A. That was the last time I heard his voice.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Take your time, madam. Do you

18 think you'll need a break? Would you prefer to go on?

19 If you feel able to continue, please let us know that.

20 A. Yes, yes, I can continue.

21 My other child who was with me kept screaming. This child was

22 born in 1986. He grabbed me by my hair; he was pulling my hair. He was

23 shouting and screaming, "Mommy, they have taken my brother away. They

24 have taken our brother." And then I was thinking about taking this other

25 child and going to where my son had been taken, but he kept screaming. He

Page 5756

1 was asking for his aunt that had been with us, but I just stood there

2 thinking what to do. But he kept screaming, pulling my clothes, my hair,

3 and then I started comforting him, and I told him to calm down. I was

4 trying to tell him that his brother would not be harmed in any way.

5 And I just stood there for a while. I didn't know what to do. I

6 didn't know where to go. But at that point my sister-in-law came and her

7 sister-in-law, and they took me with them. They told me to go with them,

8 and we went to a truck. It was a large truck. It didn't have any canvas

9 on. So they put me onto that truck, and we sat down. The truck was still

10 standing, and I kept looking at that direction where they had taken him

11 to. There was a bus full of men that was standing there, and there was

12 some men around the bus as well. They were actually many of them. They

13 could have been put in five more buses. And I was thinking, well, thank

14 God, at least they have buses. They will be taken somewhere by a bus.

15 But at that point our truck left, and I didn't see him again. Nothing.

16 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:

17 Q. Witness, were you then transported by that truck with your young

18 son to Tisca where you got off and then walked to Kladanj?

19 A. Yes, but on the road to Tisca we were stoned on several occasions

20 because it was an open truck which did not have any cover, any tarpaulin,

21 and my other child was hit on his head.

22 I had a kind -- some kind of shoes with me, and then I put them on

23 my child's head. That happened the first time when we were stoned. But

24 that happened once again, and a woman who was on the truck had a kind of a

25 blanket, and I put the blanket on my child's head, and I put the shoes on

Page 5757

1 my head. And this is how we were transported to this place which I didn't

2 know. I didn't know what kind of place it was, what kind of town, but at

3 one point the truck stopped, and we were told that we were in Tisca. And

4 they told us that we would be taken from there to Kladanj.

5 So we started getting off the truck. It was a rather high truck,

6 and it was not very easy to get off the truck. I needed some help, and

7 people helped me get down. There was a very big Cetnik standing there

8 together with another one, a very young man, young boy who was actually

9 smaller than my son who was born in 1986, but he was holding a rifle. And

10 he told us to move on quickly. He told us "Hurry up, hurry up. Get off

11 the truck." We kept quiet. We got off the truck, all of us. And we

12 continued along the road on foot where they told us we should go in the

13 direction of Kladanj.

14 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Your Honours, I will need to go into closed

15 session for the next couple of questions I have for this witness.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, we will go into closed

17 session -- or, rather, private session.

18 [Closed session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Please go on.

8 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:

9 Q. Witness, I'd now like to ask you some questions about life after

10 the fall of Srebrenica.

11 Can you describe where you live now and the type of accommodation

12 it is?

13 A. I'm now living in a collective centre. You can only imagine what

14 it's like. Every minute of the day I wish I was no longer alive. Some

15 people singing, some people listening to music, another one dancing;

16 everyone is doing whatever they like.

17 My room is about four by six, something like that. That is where

18 we sleep, where we live, where we cook. The bathroom, toilet, everything,

19 all in one. That is where we have to dry our clothes and to have

20 visitors. That's all we have.

21 Q. Who do you live with in that room?

22 A. I'm living in that room with my son, born in 1986. I also have a

23 daughter who has no accommodation at all. She comes to see me. She has

24 two children of her own. So you can't keep it tidy. If you're in

25 pyjamas, you can't change. You often sleep in the clothes you wear during

Page 5760

1 the day. And that is how it is.

2 Q. Are you employed?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you receive an income?

5 A. I receive something based on my husband's employment in the

6 company, and then out of his social insurance, I'm given an allowance,

7 taking into account that I have a minor with me. But I'm not old enough

8 to have a pension.

9 Q. How much money do you receive a month?

10 A. 140.

11 Q. 140 what?

12 A. Money. What do they call them? Marks, coupons. I don't know.

13 These convertible marks or something.

14 Q. How would you compare your standard of living today to the

15 standard of living you had before the war?

16 A. There's no comparison. I've told you my whole life, what it was

17 like before and what it is like now. How can you compare the two?

18 Q. Now, what has been the impact of these crimes on you and your son?

19 A. You can imagine what it has been. My young son, born in 1986, he

20 has demands. He wants this and that, and he starts trembling when I tell

21 him I don't have it, I can't afford it. Then he accuses me of all kinds

22 of things, saying that it was my fault that things are like this. "If I

23 had a father, he would give me everything."

24 So you can imagine in addition to all my stress and anxieties, I

25 have to try and console him. He keeps blaming me. "Perhaps it would have

Page 5761

1 been better if you didn't have me even." And then sometimes I also think

2 it would be better if none of us had survived. I would prefer it.

3 Q. How do you feel about returning to your village?

4 A. What would you suggest to me, after everything I've been through?

5 If I had felt well and if I had strength. When war criminals are still

6 walking around and doing what they want, what's the point about

7 thinking -- even though I sometimes think that it would be better if we

8 hadn't survived. Should I take him over there too to be killed and

9 slaughtered?

10 It's true that I loved my village and estate, but of course

11 there's no comparison with the love one has for children. I did love it

12 all, the house and the farm and everything, but what's the point of it all

13 now?

14 Q. What do you think has happened to your husband and your two sons?

15 A. How do I know? As a mother, I still have hope. I just can't

16 believe that this is true. How is it possible that a human being could do

17 something like this, could destroy everything, could kill so many people?

18 Just imagine this youngest boy I had, those little hands of his, how could

19 they be dead? I imagine those hands picking strawberries, reading books,

20 going to school, going on excursions.

21 Every morning I wake up, I cover my eyes not to look at other

22 children going to school, and husbands going to work, holding hands.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you finished your

24 examination-in-chief?

25 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour. I won't ask any more

Page 5762

1 questions.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam, for the moment the

3 Prosecutor has no further questions. Would you like to have a break now?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whatever you say. I will tell you

5 everything I know, whatever you ask me.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. We know that you are a very

7 brave woman, but we're going to have a break because we normally have a

8 break, and after that we'll come back here and we will continue to listen

9 to you.

10 For the moment, we're going to have a 20-minute break.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.42 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam, have you had a little

15 rest?

16 WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So now, madam -- I was saying,

18 madam, that you are now going to answer questions which Defence counsel is

19 going to put to you. I have already told you that you are a very brave

20 woman, so now you're going to answer questions put to you by Mr. Visnjic.

21 Mr. Visnjic, you have the floor.

22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has no

23 questions for this witness.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Mr.

25 Visnjic. No additional questions.

Page 5763

1 Judge Fouad Riad, do you have any questions?

2 Questioned by the Court:

3 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. President.

4 Good morning, madam. Can you hear me? I am in front of you.

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE RIAD: I share the views of the president in saying that we

7 have a great deal of admiration for your courage, and we understand and

8 feel for your pain, but there is a life ahead of you, and the whole world

9 is on your side.

10 I simply wanted to ask you whether your husband before being

11 arrested, whether he took part in any resistance or whether he attacked

12 people on the other side? Was there any reason for his arrest in your

13 opinion?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Were any weapons found in your home?

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Was there any political activity he

18 was involved in?

19 A. No.

20 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Was he selected among others, or did

21 they round up people without any discrimination?

22 A. One and all, as I just said, regardless.

23 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] And as for your son, was he chosen

24 among many other boys? Did they take a lot of other boys of his age?

25 A. All the others, whoever was there.

Page 5764

1 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] When you say all of them, of what age

2 were they? How old were they, the others, your son's friends?

3 A. Well, it depended. Some were younger than my son, a year or two.

4 Some were a little older. There were men of different ages there. There

5 were even babies that were being born. They took them, too, if they were

6 boys, not to mention the older boys.

7 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes, but your son was born in 1981?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] So he was 12, 13, 14?

10 A. He was going on 14 then.

11 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Was he big? Did he look like a

12 mature young man, in your opinion? Could one think that he was older?

13 A. The children were snatched away. The children were quite tall

14 because I was quite big and so was my husband, so they were not

15 underdeveloped.

16 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] But you told them that he was born in

17 1981?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Have you returned to your house?

20 A. No. How can I go back? When we went to observe the 5th

21 anniversary of this greatest massacre, I think the whole world was

22 watching how they react, even today how they rally, the Cetniks, how they

23 threaten and how they demonstrate their threats, and the security was such

24 that we only just somehow managed to get through.

25 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Did you go back to see your house?

Page 5765

1 A. No. That day and the next day and the day after, after we had

2 fled our houses towards Srebrenica to hide, we heard from some neighbours

3 and friends who went back during the night to get some food that

4 everything out there had been set on fire and destroyed.

5 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Do you still have any relationships

6 with your former Serb neighbours? Have you picked up those relationships,

7 or are you completely separate now?

8 A. I have no contact. I never saw them again. I did recognise a

9 neighbour when they took my child away from me, and I was watching out for

10 them. I wanted to find them to ask them because I was hoping that perhaps

11 he might have saved my son, because we were so close with all of our

12 neighbours, not just them. But he was the only one I noticed there, and I

13 hoped and prayed to find him, but I never managed to get in touch with

14 him.

15 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Have your neighbours changed their

16 attitude towards you, or do they still have friendly feelings towards you?

17 I'm talking about your Serb neighbours.

18 A. You mean up to the time they took my child? You mean the

19 neighbour I recognised?

20 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes, and the others.

21 A. I noticed him, and I saw that he could recognise me, too, because

22 he cast a quick glance at me. We exchanged glances, and I thought that I

23 should scream out for him to save my child, but then I thought better of

24 it because I had heard from others that the neighbours were doing the

25 worst things and so I thought maybe my child would fair even worse, so I

Page 5766

1 restrained from addressing him.

2 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] And so you have no Serb neighbours

3 around you; you don't visit one another at all?

4 A. Probably there are some, but I have no contact with them. Simply,

5 we don't communicate. How do I know? I just can't believe that having

6 the kind of life we had, that this could have happened, so I keep

7 wondering. I don't know what to say to you, starting from myself and my

8 children and onwards, further afield.

9 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] So if you could remember, before this

10 happened, did you hear any talk of a plan of what was going to happen, or

11 were you completely taken by surprise? In the media, on the radio, et

12 cetera, were there any announcements as to what would happen? Were there

13 any threats?

14 A. No. They worked together in various companies, their men and our

15 men, the men in our neighbours' families. Our children went to school

16 together. We had land next to one another. When he had to collect the

17 hay, and if it was going to rain, we would help them to do it quickly, and

18 they would help us to collect the hay.

19 So you couldn't notice anything at all until we saw that they were

20 loading their families into trucks and cars, with supplies, and driving

21 them away somewhere. I don't know where. Then someone asked, "Where are

22 you going? What's happening?" and then their answer was very vague.

23 "Some fools could come along and do who knows what. Of course, we won't

24 hurt you and you won't hurt us, we believe that, but some fools may come

25 along." So they thought it would be better to move for awhile.

Page 5767

1 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] They left a long time before those

2 events, so they knew what was going to happen. How long beforehand did

3 this happen?

4 A. Not long before that happened. They didn't leave much earlier. I

5 forgot what I was going to say a moment ago.

6 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Never mind. I'm not asking you for

7 dates. The point is they left before.

8 A. Yes. It was only after all these things happened that we thought

9 about the reasons why they had left. Because they gave different answers;

10 some people said they were going to stay with relatives in Serbia, to do

11 some kind of work there; others were saying they were going on holiday.

12 They were giving different answers. Only after all this happened, we

13 realised why they had left and where they had left to, their families and

14 their children. But the men stayed behind.

15 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] So you understood that they left in a

16 collective manner; all the Serb families left together.

17 A. No, we didn't really see them go together. But there were fields

18 that belonged to them a little further away. Then some people would leave

19 on one day and others on another day, and then somebody would say, "I saw

20 that family leave," and then the next day, someone would say, "I saw this

21 other family leave." And we were wondering. Until then, they didn't do

22 anything wrong. They didn't hurt us and, of course, we didn't hurt them

23 either.

24 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam. I wish you

25 courage.

Page 5768

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Fouad Riad.

2 Judge Wald, please.

3 JUDGE WALD: I have no questions for the witness except to thank

4 you for coming and sharing your very sad story with the Tribunal. I think

5 it will help us in making our decision. Thank you.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Me too, madam, I have a very

7 small question for you.

8 Do you have anything that you would like to say and that has not

9 been asked of you?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do. I wanted to say if I had

11 known these people would betray us the way they did, those who had sworn

12 to protect us and signed documents to that effect, I would have saved my

13 family, my husband and my children. We could have sought shelter

14 somewhere and at least we would have died together and our bones would be

15 together. I would have stayed in front of our house together with my

16 whole family and let them all kill us together if I had known what would

17 happen.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So, madam, I wish to repeat that

19 you are an extremely brave woman. You have said that the body lives, but

20 perhaps the soul needs to gain strength from the little hands of your

21 son. You must continue living, at least if for no other reason than to

22 testify about all those events that you have shared with us and to avoid,

23 as you have said, that fools may appear again in the future. So that is a

24 very good reason to continue living.

25 We thank you very much for coming here and we would like to wish a

Page 5769

1 better life for you and for all your loved ones. So you may now leave.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say one more thing, please?

3 May I?

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to appeal to you to ask

6 Mr. Krstic, if you can, whether there is any hope for at least that little

7 child that they snatched away from me, because I keep dreaming about him.

8 I dream of him bringing flowers and saying, "Mother, I've come." I hug

9 him and say, "Where have you been, my son?" and he says, "I've been in

10 Vlasenica all this time." So I beg you, if Mr. Krstic knows anything

11 about it, about him surviving some place ...

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, madam, I think all of us

13 have heard your plea, and I think that all the people who are here and who

14 can do something will do it. But I repeat, you have good reasons to

15 continue living. All the people here present and all those listening to

16 us will do whatever is possible to do. We understand and feel for your

17 suffering.

18 I will ask the usher to lead you out now. Thank you once again

19 for coming.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Magda.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

24 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour, we have our next witness here

25 ready to give testimony, and there are no protective measures in relation

Page 5770

1 to this witness. Her name is Jasna Zecevic. We'd like her to be brought

2 in, if possible.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good. So we are now waiting for

4 our next witness to be brought in.

5 Yes, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: I just wanted to say for the record that this

7 witness that just left is pseudonym DD.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Zecevic. Can

11 you hear me?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Could you please

14 read the solemn declaration that the usher is giving you.

15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

16 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 WITNESS: JASNA ZECEVIC

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated now. Make

19 yourself comfortable. Could you perhaps come a little closer to the

20 microphone so that we can hear you better. Ms. Zecevic, you will first be

21 answering questions that will be put to you by Ms. Magda Karagiannakas.

22 You have the floor.

23 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Examined by Ms. Karagiannakis:

25 Q. Witness, can you tell me your name and spell your last name for

Page 5771

1 the record, please?

2 A. My name is Jasna Zecevic, so last name is Z-e-c-e-v-i-c. I'm

3 sorry.

4 Q. That's all right. Before we get started, I'd just like to remind

5 you that we are both speaking the same language, but what we say has to be

6 translated simultaneously into French and B/C/S, so that means that after

7 I ask a question, I'd like you to talk a pause, a few minutes -- a minute

8 or two break before you answer it. And I will do the same after you

9 finish so that we give enough time for the translators to do their work.

10 What is your nationality?

11 A. My nationality is I'm born in Croatia, and my father is from

12 Bosnia, my mother is from Croatia, so we call it now "other." So my

13 nationality is "other."

14 Q. Where do you currently live and how long have you been living

15 there?

16 A. I'm living now in Tuzla in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'm living

17 there for 30 [sic] years.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me, you said your nationality is "other"?

19 A. Yes, that's --

20 JUDGE RIAD: What's it mean, "other"?

21 A. It means that I don't have clear nationality because I live in

22 Bosnia, and I'm not born in Bosnia, and I am a child of mixed marriage, so

23 my father is Muslim, my mother is a Catholic.

24 JUDGE RIAD: And they call you "others"?

25 A. Yes, that is the term.

Page 5772

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Page 5773

1 JUDGE RIAD: The term?

2 A. Yes. You have different nationality in Bosnia now, and there is

3 some people who are not -- it's not Bosnian nationality because we don't

4 have still Bosnian nationality.

5 JUDGE RIAD: But in your passport is written "other"?

6 A. No, it's nothing. Nothing is written. It is Bosnian passport is

7 nationality. I'm living in Bosnian.

8 JUDGE RIAD: So you have the Bosnian nationality?

9 A. Bosnian nationality, but it's not existing Bosnian nationality. I

10 mean, that's a special term we use in Bosnia. You can be in Bosnia a

11 Serb, Croat, or Muslim, and "others."

12 JUDGE RIAD: And others are mixed marriages only, or foreigners?

13 A. Mixed marriages and foreigners and everyone who are not Croat,

14 Muslim, or Serb.

15 JUDGE RIAD: They're called "others"?

16 A. Yes, called "others".

17 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:

18 Q. Witness, is the term "other" a term used in the census forms to

19 describe people that are not Bosnian -- or sorry, Muslim, Croatian, or

20 Serbian?

21 A. Yes, you are correct.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, what are your academic qualifications?

23 A. I finished -- I'm an engineer of geology. I finish in 1989 on the

24 faculty of Tuzla, mining and geology, and in 1991 I finished post-graduate

25 study in geochemistry, also in the faculty of Tuzla, University of Tuzla.

Page 5774

1 Q. Where are you currently employed and what is your position?

2 A. Currently I'm working in NGO at an organisation Vive Zene. It's a

3 non-government organisation. Vive Zene what means "woman alive," and I'm

4 director of that NGO.

5 Q. What is the aim of your NGO, and how was it established?

6 A. So Vive Zene established in 1994 and established and with aim to

7 provide the psycho-social support for the victim of war, to the women and

8 children.

9 Q. And how is your organisation funded?

10 A. My organisation is funded from European Community, with the

11 donation from European Community, from Netherlands government, Switzerland

12 government, some other NGOs from Netherland and from Switzerland, from

13 Sweden also, and England.

14 Q. What sort of programmes does Vive Zene run?

15 A. So we have one programme of psycho-social support which we

16 implement in a different settings. We implement the psycho-social

17 programme in the residential part. We call it psycho-therapy centre for

18 women and children traumatised by the war. And also in the community

19 work, the same programme, and on the ambulant way so that outpatient are

20 coming from time to time to the centre.

21 Q. Does your organisation work in collective centres and refugee

22 towns and --

23 A. Yes, that is what we call community work. So our

24 multidisciplinary team are working in the refugee settlements outside of

25 Tuzla.

Page 5775

1 Q. You mentioned a multidisciplinary team. What is that team made up

2 of or who is that team made up of?

3 A. Multidisciplinary team is consisting two therapists for the women,

4 psychotherapists for the women, two psychotherapists for the children, two

5 pedagogues who are working also with the children, three social worker,

6 and one physiotherapist. That's -- we call it body therapist because

7 she's working on a different way than usually physiotherapy. And the one

8 doctor and one nurse.

9 Q. How many people has Vive Zene provided therapy for since its

10 beginnings?

11 A. From 1994 until January 2000, we provide all our service in

12 stationary part for 124 women and 222 children, that is a residential

13 part; and around 4.011 women in ambulant way and 28 children, but these 28

14 children is just who attend on a psychotherapy programme; and there is

15 more than 400 children what we treat in our pedagogical workshop in the

16 community, in the refugee community.

17 Q. Just to clarify a point, was it 411 women or 4.011 women that you

18 provide ambulance service for?

19 A. 411.

20 Q. Of the people that you have treated, how many of them come from

21 the Srebrenica survivor community, and by that I mean people that came

22 from Srebrenica after the summer of 1995?

23 A. So that is in this number of stationary, what we treated in

24 stationary concept, in stationary part, is 60 women from Srebrenica.

25 Q. Have you provided any ambulance services to these women?

Page 5776

1 A. In this number what I said for ambulant is 180 women and from

2 Srebrenica.

3 Q. What functions do you perform in your organisation now?

4 A. At this moment as a director of the centre, I am responsible for

5 organising the life in the centre, organisational part, for the fund

6 raising, for public relation, contact with the donors and assisting the

7 women to organise their life inside the centre.

8 Q. What does that last task involve?

9 A. The last task we consider very important because the women who are

10 living in the centre, as they are traumatised, so they don't have this

11 internal structure with what we consider the normal life, so we are

12 trying, I am trying, to give them support in organising very normal and

13 simple things, like cleaning the house, taking care about their children,

14 so that they have to have back this feeling of normal. Certain time for

15 the breakfast, certain time for the lunch, so some rules to keep them in a

16 normal structure. We are trying to give them back.

17 Q. What other experiences have you had with the Srebrenica community?

18 A. So with the Srebrenica community before the war I had also some

19 experience because I worked for one month in mining -- my study was in

20 Srebrenica. So with the Srebrenica community I could describe or I can

21 tell my experience of very calm and nice community with some patriarchal

22 structure in their community, and after the war I have different

23 experience because working and living with these women who came after the

24 fall of Srebrenica.

25 Q. How were you working and living with these women after the fall of

Page 5777

1 Srebrenica, and by that I mean in what capacity? What were you doing for

2 them?

3 A. So I already told you about this helping and assisting them.

4 During that time they are living in our centre, to assist them, to give

5 them back the strength that they can continue as much as is possible the

6 normal life, and to be the family again. I mean, they are not complete

7 family, but they are, because they have children. So it's very hard for

8 them to understand that without the husband and without the men, they are

9 the family with their children. So that is the main task what we have.

10 Q. And before you were director of Vive Zene, did you work for them

11 in any other capacity?

12 A. Before I become director, from 1996 I am director of Vive Zene, so

13 I was working in Vive Zene from 1994 as translator with the psychologist

14 from Germany, and she was treating the women traumatised by the war, and I

15 was translator in psychotherapy in the group and individual treatment.

16 Q. And in that capacity, did you have any special contact with the

17 women of Srebrenica?

18 A. I didn't understand.

19 Q. Well, when you were a translator, what sort of -- did you have --

20 what was your first contact with women from Srebrenica?

21 A. First contact -- sorry, first contact with women from Srebrenica

22 from 1995, it was in airport Dubrave when they came in July when they came

23 from Srebrenica, as translator with these women.

24 Q. Okay. Had the survivors from the Srebrenica community in 1995

25 treated by your organisation come primarily from Srebrenica town or from

Page 5778

1 the rural area surrounding Srebrenica?

2 A. All of them we treat from 1995, they are coming from around

3 Srebrenica, from the rural area. So they are not from the town of

4 Srebrenica. But in that moment when they were from the town of

5 Srebrenica, that was the second time that they were refugees. When they

6 came to Tuzla, that was the second time. The first time they came in

7 Srebrenica from their villages, I think from 1993. So they lived for two

8 years in this enclave, protected enclave, and in 1995 they came as

9 refugees again to Tuzla.

10 Q. From your experience and contact with the women and children from

11 this survivor group, can you describe the respective roles of women and

12 men in their society?

13 A. In the society of Eastern Bosnia, or I can say that in the

14 villages in Bosnia not just in Srebrenica, I can describe it as a

15 traditional patriarchal family structure. So the point was that men were

16 responsible for the family, so he was the one who made decisions, the

17 decision-maker. He was working outside of the house, I mean public -- he

18 was responsible for the public work; he earned the money. And the woman

19 was responsible and worked in the house more and in the field. So she was

20 responsible for the children but she didn't make the decisions.

21 So that was common not just in the Srebrenica population but also

22 in other villages in Bosnia.

23 Q. Again, from your experience and contact with this survivor group,

24 can you describe the way in which the people living in the rural areas

25 surrounding Srebrenica supported themselves?

Page 5779

1 A. Their income, what they got, it was from the work the men had in

2 mining companies, because usually they work in the mining companies and

3 the factories around Srebrenica. And the field they had belonged to

4 them. I mean, the field -- they had houses, and the field they were

5 working, and they produced the food for themselves.

6 Q. How important would you say that a house and land was to the

7 people from this survivor community?

8 A. Their house and their land was everything that they had, so that

9 was their life. That's, for them, everything and only what they get --

10 what they have.

11 Q. In your opinion, was the societal structure and the respective

12 roles of men and women in this society common and widely known in Eastern

13 Bosnia?

14 A. Yes, it was very well known and very clarified and divided, who is

15 the man and who is the woman.

16 Q. I'd now like to turn to the issue of -- more specifically, how the

17 Srebrenica survivor community that you have dealt with lives after the

18 fall of Srebrenica.

19 First of all, the issue of accommodation. What type of

20 accommodation do survivors generally live in?

21 A. Now, at this moment, and after the fall of Srebrenica, they are

22 living in collective settlements, refugee settlements, and so-called

23 private accommodation.

24 Q. What is a collective settlement?

25 A. A collective or refugee settlement is supposed to be the place for

Page 5780

1 living for the people who are refugees from Eastern Bosnia or whatever,

2 and those are the houses made by internationals -- the International

3 Community. With four or five rooms in one house, it is supposed that one

4 or two families live there but there are usually five or six families; so

5 20 people in one smaller house are living. They have a joint kitchen and

6 a joint toilet. So they have in one room a few generations, maybe

7 mother-in-law or mother, or mother and child, so a few generations are

8 living in one room. They sleep there, they cook, they eat, they wash,

9 they do everything in that small room. They live in that.

10 Q. Do the refugees that live in these collective settlements own

11 their houses or their apartments or their rooms?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Who owns those rooms?

14 A. It belongs to the Bosnian country, I mean, to the government.

15 Q. How many victims from the fall of Srebrenica are living in the

16 Tuzla municipality today?

17 A. In the Tuzla municipality, it is around 7.000 refugees from

18 Srebrenica from 1995. But altogether it's 140.000 refugees in the Tuzla

19 surroundings.

20 Q. Now, in June of this year, you visited a collective centre with an

21 investigator from the OTP who took a tape of your visit. I would now like

22 to show you an excerpt of this video which I have previously shown you in

23 my office, and I'd like you to comment on it after the end of the video,

24 okay?

25 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Could Exhibit 386 please be played, and if we

Page 5781

1 could dim the lights as well.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:

4 Q. Which collective settlement is depicted in that video?

5 A. This is the Spionica settlement.

6 Q. How many collective centres are there in the Tuzla area which

7 Srebrenica survivors live in?

8 A. There is altogether eight collective settlements, and Srebrenica

9 survivors are living in each. So they are divided in each settlement, but

10 mostly they are living in three: Spionica, Nihatovici, and Karaula. They

11 are in each settlement. They are not divided, separate from the other

12 refugees.

13 Q. Those conditions which you have described and which we have now

14 seen in the video, in Spionica, are they typical of what one might expect

15 to see?

16 A. This, what you see, is one of the nicer - we call it nicer -

17 settlements, and this, what you see, it is in the summer so it is very

18 clean. After action we had, we were doing the cleaning of the settlement,

19 together with the people who are living there. So there are others, like

20 Mrdici - we don't have it; I didn't see that - but Mrdici is on the top,

21 on the surface of the former mining company. So during the summer you

22 can't come with a car on top of that hill. This settlement, what we see,

23 Spionica, during the winter, you saw the road, so it's very wet and you

24 can't walk.

25 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit 390.

Page 5782

1 Q. Can you see the exhibit from there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What is that a photo of?

4 A. That is the same settlement you see, Spionica, just in a different

5 time. You see the children that are usually outside of the houses because

6 they don't have any other place -- there is no infrastructure for normal

7 life in such a settlement. So they are outside most of the time.

8 Q. Is there a playground in this settlement?

9 A. No. This is the playground, what you see, if you can call it a

10 playground.

11 Q. Thank you. How would you generally describe the lifestyle of the

12 Srebrenica survivors who live in these settlements, in these collective

13 centres?

14 A. The lifestyle? I will not call it a lifestyle because there is no

15 life in this settlement. So they are living in, you saw, the small, small

16 rooms. They don't have any individuality, so they don't have any normal

17 conditions for the -- especially for the children to grow up in such a

18 settlement.

19 Q. How do the Srebrenica survivors that live in these settlements

20 view them? Do they see them as permanent or temporary? Do they view them

21 as their own?

22 A. That is a big problem because they see it just as temporary, and

23 they are living there for five years and they still feel that it's just

24 temporary. So they don't do anything. As you can see on this picture,

25 they don't do anything around their houses. Even if they used to work in

Page 5783

1 their former life - we call it former life - around the garden to help the

2 flowers like all other people, to have a nice garden, but because of this

3 situation which they are in now, they are living in a so-called temporary,

4 they are stuck in that, so they don't do anything for what we consider a

5 normal life.

6 Q. You mentioned that some Srebrenica survivors live in empty Serb

7 houses. What is this accommodation generally like?

8 A. Generally, this accommodation in empty Serb houses is more or less

9 the same as the collective settlements. They are also in one room. The

10 government, they give them these places because there was no other places,

11 there is not enough settlements. But they are maybe in a worse situation

12 because they are split. These houses are not like this, together in one

13 small community. So they are also isolated, more isolated than these

14 people in the group. They are isolated in the settlement and they are

15 individually isolated.

16 Q. Do the people living there own those houses or have any right to

17 them?

18 A. No, they don't have any rights. That is just temporary. They

19 live just temporary because they have to go back one day.

20 Q. Of the Srebrenica survivor community that you and your

21 organisation have dealt with, how many of them are employed?

22 A. The women we treat, there is just one woman employed and she was

23 employed after she finished some courses. It's not real employment. I

24 mean, she's cleaning the houses around, the flats, so she earns some money

25 for her children. But generally there is no employment between the

Page 5784

1 women. They are not employed. Not just the refugees. I mean the

2 situation in Bosnia, as you know, it's very hard to be employed at this

3 moment. Not just because they are refugees, but they are not employed.

4 Q. So from what source, if any, do they receive any income?

5 A. So the income, if they're lucky, they could get from the

6 government, it's 300 Deutschemarks for the missing person. That's only

7 what is officially allowed, 300 Deutschemarks, for one women and two or

8 three children.

9 Q. What do the survivor families have to pay from this 300

10 Deutschemarks a month?

11 A. Now, in this moment, they have to pay everything, the food, the

12 clothes, everything that they need for the life of their children, to feed

13 their children, to feed themselves, to pay -- they have some bonus for

14 electricity that they don't have to pay in the collective settlements, and

15 everything after that, they have to pay. But it's usually not less -- not

16 so much. And also they have to buy wood or oven or dishes, everything

17 that you need to survive.

18 Q. What standard of living would you say this income affords these

19 people?

20 A. There is no standard. I can't talk about the standard in this

21 condition. It is just that they have to survive somehow so they are

22 surviving. There is no life standard in such a condition so ...

23 Q. Now I'd like to turn to another issue, and that is the

24 bureaucratic and social status of the Srebrenica survivors.

25 What bureaucratic status do the Srebrenica survival women have?

Page 5785

1 A. Srebrenica women from 1995, they have now special status of

2 missing -- they have missing husbands. That's new in our society. I

3 mean, new for them, because in our society, it's very important that you

4 have some status, especially as a woman. You have to be either divorced

5 or married or to have clear status, but this is -- with missing husband,

6 there is no status. So they are -- that's new from 1995. "Missing

7 husband" is a new status. She's not a widow, which she could be, and

8 she's not divorced and she's not married. So that's produced a problem

9 for the women.

10 Q. What type of problem does this produce?

11 A. In a bureaucratic way, view, way, this produced the problem that

12 if she want to start a new life, for example, if she want to get married

13 again and she have children, and usually most of them, they don't have

14 documents that they were married when they came because of the situation,

15 how they came into Tuzla. So they have, according to our law, and maybe

16 all the law in the world is the same, so they have to get married again

17 for the missing husband, with some witnesses, usually that's mother-in-law

18 or some cousin, so she is going with the children to get married with the

19 missing husband, and then get divorced from the husband missing, and then

20 she has some status, so she is divorced. And then she can get married if

21 she wants. But some of them don't do that because of the money they will

22 lose, that is economic problem involved.

23 Q. You mean to say if a woman wants to remarry, she has to go along

24 to the town hall and marry a missing husband; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5786

1 Q. To get the paperwork.

2 A. Yes. If she doesn't have documents with her, then she can't prove

3 that she has a husband, she has to have a witness.

4 Q. Now, how many women from the Srebrenica survivor community that

5 you and your organisation have dealt with have remarried since the fall of

6 Srebrenica?

7 A. We have three cases but they didn't remarry. That is another

8 problem. They wanted but they didn't. I didn't finish this. Because if

9 they do that, they will lose their income, this 300 Deutschemarks. So

10 that's why they are -- we have -- the last cases, what we have, these

11 women are in a big dilemma because of that. If she gets married, she will

12 have the status of a married woman and she will lose this 300

13 Deutschemarks. If she don't have -- if she don't get married again, she

14 will keep her income, but her child, she had a child with this man, will

15 be in a difficult situation because the child is not from the official

16 marriage. So that's bureaucratic and economic and social problem.

17 Q. Now I'd like to move on to another issue and that is the

18 particular problems that the adult women survivors from Srebrenica have.

19 What sort of problems do they commonly have?

20 A. I don't understand. Sorry.

21 Q. What is the main problem that a woman from the Srebrenica survivor

22 community has? What is the main problem that you have seen that they

23 have?

24 A. The main problem they have with managing their life now without

25 men, without husbands, and to keep this role of the woman that they are

Page 5787

1 used to live in this traditional marriage and the family, they grow up.

2 And with the new role they have to take over the role of the husband and

3 to take care of the children, about the children, and they have to take

4 care about all outside work. I mean, to get some official paper,

5 documents, to talk with the people is sometimes hard for them.

6 So to go out, to take these two roles, of keep the role of the

7 women and take the role of the husband, for them is the biggest problem

8 besides trauma in the war, what they get.

9 Q. Do you have any examples you can provide of -- that illustrate

10 this problem?

11 A. Yes. I illustrate, there is many cases of these missing husbands,

12 but few women, they really had a big -- some big difficulties to manage

13 their life outside of the centre in Vive Zene when they was in Vive Zene.

14 So when they was coming in the centre and after few months they adapting

15 to condition, what they are used to work in the centre, and then we try to

16 help them to go out and to handle their problems, what they have -- that

17 is, just small things about health care, documents for the health, books,

18 more books. So they have to go outside with the public transport or to

19 knock on some doors and to ask, to write some paper. That is the things

20 that we are trying to help them, but not to do for them because if we do

21 for them, so it will be the same that we take role of their husbands.

22 So we are working on that, that finally they do that. And it was

23 very hard for one woman to do that, and she was shocked when she went to

24 the bus, and then she went to town. And Tuzla is very small town it's not

25 big town. And she went in the centre for the social welfare just to ask

Page 5788

1 for some paper for her children, and when she came back in the centre, it

2 was strange for all of us when she react like she done something very big

3 things. And she said, "Oh, I was in the bus, public bus." And for her

4 with her 25 or 27 years, it was first time that she was in that situation,

5 and she was really proud to do that.

6 Q. Do you have any other examples of --

7 A. Yes, there is many. There was one woman also what was for her --

8 I mean, these are the cases what I'm talking now what was for them very

9 strange to do. For us it's very normal to have women do that, but for

10 them it was -- there is in Tuzla one organisation, it's Bospor [phoen],

11 it's name Bospor. They provide little credit, assistance for the refugee

12 women. So they organise few women, and they get this small credit, and

13 they can buy some sewing machine to earn some money or the cow to have

14 some food for themselves, and that way it is organised.

15 So when we try to explain to our women, we call it our women,

16 Srebrenica women, that it could be also useful for them. So it is also

17 hard for them to understand that they could work first. When you ask them

18 that they can work, they said, "I have children." So that's explanation

19 for them because they are used to stay at home and work. They are very

20 responsible at home. But when you tell them you can go out and work, then

21 she's -- it's strange for them.

22 So with this credit and Bospor organisation, in Vive Zene we are

23 trying to push them in some way, to help them to go in a normal life. So

24 they -- one of them, she took the credit, and the problem was that she was

25 waiting for the long time to finish the paper in this office of Bospor.

Page 5789

1 And this -- her reaction, like previous I explain of this woman, she was

2 very proud also, then she was waiting few times. She went to the office

3 of Bospor and asked for the paper, and last time the girl, she was working

4 there, she said it is not finished. But she was very strong, and before

5 that it was strange for us because she couldn't talk almost for a few

6 months, and then she came and she sit and she said, "I will not leave this

7 room until you finish my paper."

8 And it was shock for all of us, that she really show her power,

9 that it's coming back to her, that she is very strong, and she can survive

10 that, and she can take responsibility for this issue.

11 Q. Now, Ms. Zecevic, and I'd like to move on to another topic and

12 that is the particular problems that you see in the children survivors of

13 Srebrenica in 1995. Can you describe -- can you tell me what those

14 problems usually are?

15 A. Usually the children who was in our centre and the children we

16 treat in the community, refugee community, and after missing -- all this

17 what happened in Srebrenica and growing up in such a condition as you can

18 see where they are living, they have a lot of problems with concentration,

19 first of all in the school. And it is, besides trauma -- I will not talk

20 about that -- but the sitting in the small room with the whole family and

21 growing up with five years in one small room with the older people, and

22 you don't have your place for the playing, for the learning, reading,

23 anything, so there must be some consequences besides war and all what's

24 happened. So they have a problem with the concentration, as I mentioned.

25 And they have the problem in the family that they took some wrong

Page 5790

1 roles. So like we had a few of them, and last very, very specific case is

2 one mother, she have two girls and boy. Two girls is younger and boy is

3 older, around 12 years, the boy. He is very, very bad in the school, very

4 bad. All bad marks, but mother don't recognise that, and she just don't

5 think that he is bad. The girls are always alone in our kindergarten.

6 They take care of each other, but mother, she's talking with the boy

7 because he is a man.

8 So he's always in our working room where the sewing machine we

9 have. He's with the women, all the women, other women from the group, and

10 he controls, somehow he control his mother, what she's doing, how she's

11 behaving. And then few times I find out that she's talking a coffee when

12 he wake up in the morning. So he don't go downstairs in the kitchen

13 because he's tired or whatever, but she bring the coffee to him like to

14 his -- her husband.

15 So she change this relation in the family, mother with the

16 children, so she behave to him and she give him the role of the father, of

17 the man. And when they are discussing about the money, small what they

18 have, how they would spend, so she discuss with him, not with the girls.

19 Not with some others, just with him. And that's with this boy a big

20 problem because maybe he'll like it, but he's very confused with that

21 because it's too much for him on his back to have this role of the father

22 or the man responsibility, and he can't manage that in the school, also he

23 have problems. He feel sometimes very nice and important because the

24 mother ask him in front of all of us, but it's very bad in this way.

25 Q. The adolescents from this community, are they employed?

Page 5791

1 A. Sorry, I didn't hear you.

2 Q. The young teenagers from the Srebrenica survivor community --

3 A. No, no. They are not employed.

4 Q. What type of problems does the lack of income cause to them?

5 A. So the problem what they have -- this adolescent, you mean?

6 Adolescent, they also don't have, I always repeat, the normal life because

7 they don't have really normal life, so they spend their times all the day

8 in front of these houses waiting that something happen. And they don't

9 have any possibility to work. They sometimes clean some flats around, the

10 girls. The men, they are going in the market. Maybe you heard about

11 Arizona. It's in a borderline of Republika Srpska and Federation. They

12 do some black, black market or -- and then finally when they don't have

13 anything else to do, so they get married. They get married very young in

14 this community, in this refugee settlement. It's some solution for them.

15 Q. I'd like to move on again and ask you, in your experience, from

16 your experience in dealing with the women in the Srebrenica survivor

17 community, what generally is their attitude to returning to their homes?

18 A. So generally all of them, they want to go back, and they would go

19 back. But they -- deeply inside when you start to talk about that with

20 them, so they are very afraid, very afraid about going back. And they

21 don't have trust any more, so they lost their trust.

22 Q. Who are they afraid of?

23 A. So they are afraid of the neighbours, maybe, former neighbours

24 because they have very bad experience from Srebrenica and all other. And

25 not just that they are afraid and they don't believe any more, so they are

Page 5792

1 also afraid about what they will do there when they go back because

2 usually they are from the villages, as I mentioned, as you know. So

3 usually they have the houses with the ground; now it's destroyed. So even

4 if you or me or whoever bring the house back in a good condition and she

5 go back with the children, what she will do there? That's their concern.

6 Where will be the income? Where the children will go to school?

7 Q. Now, the majority of people treated by your organisation are from

8 the Srebrenica community, but do you also treat other victims of war

9 trauma?

10 A. Yes, we treat, we treat them.

11 Q. And what is the main difference between the victims of Srebrenica

12 in 1995 and other victims of war trauma?

13 A. We treated -- the main difference for what we made conclusion is

14 this missing person. I mean, that is the first and the biggest difference

15 that start to send phenomena of missing person is -- for these women

16 because you can't work in the process of recovery. They are stuck. They

17 are waiting position always. They are keeping their thought that husbands

18 will come back, that they will -- they are living somewhere. So you can't

19 work in the hill, and they can't move any step. So they are all in this

20 waiting position.

21 But other people, other women we treat, they have their husbands,

22 they know that they are killed. So they see the graves, so they finish

23 with this mourning process, or they are in middle of the process. But

24 with the missing person they never start this process. So that is the

25 big, big difference for our team to work with.

Page 5793

1 And also this feeling of Potocari, this collective trauma and

2 collective guilt, it's big difference, and that's a feeling that this

3 feeling of guilt, I mentioned it. It's -- they was all together, they was

4 all together with the husbands and brothers, with the fathers, and they

5 thought they are safe, and they stay, and they leave them. They thought

6 that they leave them to go in the buses, whatever, and they feel that not

7 so good because they -- she feel that he left behind her, that she's

8 guilty on some way, that she didn't know that she will never see him.

9 Maybe she will behave in different way if she know that he will stay.

10 That's the concern. What they always have that they could do, she could

11 do something better in the last moment. So this feeling inside them, what

12 they have, it's very tough for them to live it.

13 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Zecevic.

14 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: I have no further questions.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Ms. Magda

16 Karagiannakis.

17 Ms. Visnjic, do you have any questions to ask of this witness?

18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, the

19 Defence has no questions for this witness.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

21 Mr. Visnjic.

22 Judge Fouad Riad, but let me just remind you that we will need to

23 have a break soon.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE RIAD: Ms. Zecevic, good morning. I gathered that your main

Page 5794

1 problem is the rehabilitation of the women of Srebrenica? Did I -- do you

2 think I say it rightly?

3 A. Our main problem is rehabilitation.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Psychological and social?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE RIAD: And in general, how many women do you have without,

7 without husbands now?

8 A. In our centre?

9 JUDGE RIAD: No, the refugee settlement in general. Can you speak

10 for the whole thing?

11 A. No, I don't know this information exactly.

12 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know?

13 A. I can just tell about our centre, in therapy centre.

14 JUDGE RIAD: All right. Let us concentrate on your centre.

15 A. It is 60 women what we treat in our centre from Srebrenica from

16 1995, survivors from 1995 with the missing husbands; and 80 women outside

17 of the centre in this collective settlement.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Within these 60 missing husbands, how many are known

19 to be dead, and how many are still in a waiting position, as you said?

20 A. Yes. They are all still in the waiting position. Just one woman

21 get a paper. She didn't see the bones, but she get the paper from Red

22 Cross that he -- that they find the body of her husband. It was in 1997.

23 Just one woman.

24 JUDGE RIAD: Now, how much you think these women who have not been

25 ready to face life, because you said it was a patriarchal society and were

Page 5795

1 completely sheltered, how much are they, in your opinion, capable now of

2 starting a new life?

3 A. If they have condition, if they have condition what concern

4 infrastructure and income without husband, they could start, all of them

5 who passed therapy centre of Vive Zene, and they could start the normal

6 life, so they can survive. With the condition I mean of infrastructure of

7 income, of normal house and surrounding, nothing else.

8 JUDGE RIAD: And is it being done? Is this in the process of

9 being done, to give them this natural, normal life?

10 A. No, because they have to go back. They are still in the refugee

11 settlement.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Their only chance is to go back, no other

13 possibility? These refugee centres cannot be changed into permanent

14 residences. You know, refugees all over part of the world for 50 years

15 now.

16 A. Yes, yes. It could be maybe in the future, they could be -- these

17 settlements could be arranged and in each house one family lived. It

18 could be arranged if it will be like that, but according to the data and

19 everything, they have to go back. So it's not planned that they will stay

20 in refugee settlement.

21 JUDGE RIAD: What about the children, is there education going on,

22 or are they really lost in life?

23 A. They are going on now, but most of them, all of them, they missed

24 for at least one year of school. They will finish, but they have

25 difficulties in learning, and they have difficulties with concentration,

Page 5796

1 but they will finish the school. They have possibility near the

2 settlements to go to school.

3 JUDGE RIAD: So in your opinion as a therapist, this generation

4 can be saved?

5 A. Saved? This generation will survive, I will call it that way.

6 JUDGE RIAD: And the women?

7 A. They survived, in this moment they survived.

8 JUDGE RIAD: And how could they go back to a normal life?

9 A. I told you, they could go back. It will never be a normal life

10 for them like they used to live before. It will be their life, the new

11 life, and we are trying to help them with a new structure, with their

12 children. So they will survive.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Just my last question. How many institutions are

14 like yours, like Vive Zene?

15 A. In Bosnia, there is just one other NGO. Medika in Zenica and Vive

16 Zene in Tuzla; so there are just two institutions like ours, NGOs. But

17 there is also the clinic and other governmental institutions. But Vive

18 Zene and Medika in Zenica are just two organisations in the Federation to

19 treat the women and children of Srebrenica and other refugees.

20 JUDGE RIAD: You are doing a great job. Thank you.

21 A. Thank you.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge

23 Riad.

24 Madam Judge Wald.

25 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

Page 5797

1 I have just one or two questions and they are about the children.

2 Is it true that most of the Srebrenica survivor families that you deal

3 with are families of women and children without a male, without an adult

4 male presence there?

5 A. Yes. We treat just women and children without males.

6 JUDGE WALD: So what do you think the effect of the lack of male

7 role models, you know, fathers for children, both boys and girls, has? Is

8 that a strong problem too, that they don't have adult working role models

9 to model themselves after?

10 A. It's not just the men who are working that's important for them.

11 I mean, the model of a father -- a missing father is a big problem and

12 will produce the consequences later on, and I don't know which kind. It

13 depends on the structure of children, the structure of life, what they

14 have now. Certainly they will have some differences than the normal

15 family, but we could talk about that just after a few years. I don't know

16 now.

17 JUDGE WALD: Are you able to tell, among some of these adolescents

18 that you talked about who are growing up, the survivors, are you able to

19 tell their attitude toward going back one day to Srebrenica? In other

20 words, do they have any attraction toward going back, or is their only

21 wish to get a way out into the bigger world?

22 A. For the adolescents, for the young people, they don't talk about

23 going back. They really don't talk -- their wish is just -- their dream

24 is just to go outside, far away from Bosnia. Just that.

25 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

Page 5798

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Ms. Zecevic, I have a few

2 questions for you.

3 You spoke about an interdisciplinary team. I should like to know

4 who is the person who coordinates the work of that team?

5 A. The person who coordinates it is the psychotherapist. Do you need

6 the name?

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, not the name.

8 A. A psychotherapist for the women, and she is the coordinator of the

9 whole psychosocial programme in the centre. She leads that team.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As part of your work as a

11 therapist, is there a possibility for women to talk amongst themselves

12 without the presence of a therapist?

13 A. Of course there is. In the centre, they live like one family. So

14 besides the therapist, the work with the therapist, with the doctor,

15 social worker, they have organised their life in the centre. They have

16 their living room; they have their dining room. They are sitting

17 together, drinking coffee, and talking about whatever they want. So they

18 are talking also about their problems and what's happened with them.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] One of the problems that you

20 experience in your work is the problem of missing persons. You spoke

21 about that absence and the way it affects the women. In your opinion,

22 what is the way in which the children and the adolescents are experiencing

23 this absence, the absence of the missing persons from their lives?

24 A. For the children and also for the adolescents, it's the same

25 effects as for the mother, because it's a strange category for them. They

Page 5799

1 are still waiting. Because they are listening to the stories from the

2 mothers, because they are always with them, they are living together in a

3 small room, they are always listening to the stories from the mothers.

4 One problem I didn't mention also is that sometimes when they

5 grow, after four or five years, when they are listening about her story,

6 and usually she repeats that it would be better if she is dead and he is

7 alive, so sometimes it's happened that the children take that guilt --

8 give that guilt again to the mother in the end when she or he is angry,

9 and then he says, "It will be better that you are dead and father is

10 alive." So also this transfer of the feeling of guilt is happening. So

11 it's also the same consequences for them.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Is there any way, any

13 possibility for these people, women in particular, women survivors of

14 Srebrenica, to take part in the organisation of the centre?

15 A. Yes, of course. They are living with us so they are cooking in

16 the kitchen, they are helping our cooker. You mean in our centre? Yes.

17 So they also have -- we have meetings, I have meetings every Friday with

18 them, and we call it an organisational meeting. So they have their duties

19 but also their rights. So that is part of what we are trying to give

20 them, from the patriarchal structure, to teach them that they have some

21 rights but they have to ask for the rights. We will not give them by

22 ourselves; they have to ask for the rights. So they have obligations,

23 they have duties, but they have also their rights.

24 That is part of the healing process. Besides the professional

25 work of trauma and recovery and all kinds of therapy they get, this part

Page 5800

1 of the structuring of their life, we consider very important for them.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,

3 there is work to be done so that there can be a change of standards, a

4 change of cultural perceptions in their lives. Do you sometimes invite

5 other people, people coming from other cultures, or women who have

6 different circumstances, who live alone, for example, who can come and

7 talk to your women about their situation?

8 A. Yes. We have a part of the psychotherapy centre -- what we have

9 is we have one small social project in the school Dokanje, in the

10 surroundings of Tuzla, and that is where different people, a category of

11 people, are living; that is, domicile people, refugees, and returnees.

12 That is three different nations: Muslim people, Croats, and Serbs.

13 So we have for Bajram, that's -- you know what Bajram is. The

14 women from the centre of Vive Zene, we invite them to this and they have

15 like a party. It's not a party but they are sitting together. So we call

16 that project social recovery and rebuilding the trust in these groups. So

17 we make -- and we are working on this also in the refugee community, on

18 integration. In the local community, even it is very hard, and we are

19 doing that. We are trying to do the best from our side, but it's not --

20 in a community of refugees, it's harder because they are isolated groups.

21 But these women from the centre, they have contact with the project in

22 Dokanje.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. I see that my

24 colleague Judge Fouad Riad has another question for you.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge.

Page 5801

1 JUDGE RIAD: Can you hear me?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Are there any women among the ones you have

4 who are not Muslims who are married to Muslims and are left behind?

5 A. We had in -- but it's not a Srebrenica woman. I mean, in the

6 centre we had in 1994 one woman from Gradacac and she was married to a

7 Muslim. He was killed. She was in our centre in the first group, in

8 1994, with other Muslim women. She was the only one because all the

9 refugees that were coming into Tuzla, it was mostly women.

10 JUDGE RIAD: The children from these marriages, how are they

11 considered?

12 A. You mean how they are treated?

13 JUDGE RIAD: How they are treated, and to whom do they belong?

14 A. They belong to the mother because they were with the mother in our

15 centre. Two boys, they were with their mother.

16 JUDGE RIAD: So they are considered -- I mean, she was a Serb or a

17 Croat? Whatever. The children are considered as belonging to the mother,

18 or they are following the father's steps?

19 A. The children stay with the mother. The mother raised them. So I

20 don't have a clear explanation for that because that is a big problem.

21 You asked if they are Croats or Muslims --

22 JUDGE RIAD: How are they treated? What future do they have?

23 A. They have a future the same, like all other children in Bosnia who

24 don't have a father.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, but which community is accepting them?

Page 5802

1 A. The community of Tuzla town.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Is there a new community where there is no

3 discrimination?

4 A. In Tuzla there is no discrimination.

5 JUDGE RIAD: So you think that will be the future of this part of

6 the world, no discrimination?

7 A. Yes, I think in Tuzla -- especially in Tuzla it is a multicultural

8 society. Others.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Ms. Jasna

11 Zecevic. Thank you for coming, and we wish you a great deal of success in

12 your work. I think that you have a very important task to perform, you

13 and other persons like you who are willing to work in this area, which is

14 extremely important for providing living conditions for victims who have

15 suffered, whoever they may be. I'm talking about all victims of all

16 conflicts. So we wish you success in your work and a happy journey to

17 your place of residence where there are many people who need you.

18 Ms. Magda, I think there are some documents to be tendered into

19 evidence. Yes?

20 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to tender the

21 video, which was Exhibit 386, and the photo, which was Exhibit 390, into

22 evidence.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic, any objections?

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So these exhibits have been

Page 5803

1 admitted into evidence.

2 Before we adjourn for a break, do we have other witnesses?

3 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: No, Your Honour, we have no other witnesses for

4 today.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And for tomorrow?

6 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: We have one witness for tomorrow, the last

7 witness for the Prosecution.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In that case, we will meet again

9 tomorrow at 9.30. I wish you a pleasant afternoon, and bon voyage to the

10 witness.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.37 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of July,

13 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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