1 Wednesday, 1 November 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness takes the stand]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.20 a.m.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, ladies and

6 gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth and the interpreters; good

7 morning to the OTP, the Defence counsel.

8 Good morning, General Krstic. We are now going to continue your

9 testimony. You are continuing under oath.

10 I see that Mr. McCloskey is already ready to proceed.

11 Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

13 Honours, counsel, General Krstic.

14 WITNESS: RADISLAV KRSTIC [Resumed]

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could start with Exhibit 609. This is a

18 15 July interim combat report to Vinko Pandurevic to the Command of the

19 Drina Corps. If you could put the first page of the English on the ELMO,

20 and I'm going to be concentrating on the fifth and sixth paragraphs, the

21 two little ones near the bottom. There we go. That's perfect.

22 Q. Now, General, as we discussed -- this document has been discussed

23 before. The first three paragraphs basically discuss the difficult

24 situation posed by the Zvornik Brigade from the column coming up through

25 them and the Tuzla 2nd Corps threatening on the front lines, but what I

1 would like to ask you about is the paragraphs that start "An additional

2 burden." And let me read the phrases and I'll ask you about some things.

3 But to start out with, on 15 July, we know that large numbers of

4 Muslim prisoners have been distributed throughout the schools in the area

5 of the Zvornik Brigade responsibility, at the school in Orahovac, at the

6 new school in Petkovci, at the school in Kula near Pilica, and presumably

7 the school in Rostovici.

8 You've heard the evidence from the survivors and from Mr. Butler.

9 Do you challenge the fact that there were numerous prisoners in those

10 schools on July 15th, 1995?

11 A. I learnt of this fact during these proceedings. This document

12 went to the Command of the Drina Corps and not to the forward command post

13 of Krivaca. That was where it was dispatched, the Command of the Drina

14 Corps. And if the Commander of the brigade notes here on the basis of the

15 witnesses who testified, I have no reason to challenge it.

16 Q. So the first sentence: "An additional burden for us is large

17 number of prisoners distributed throughout the schools in the brigade

18 area."

19 So that's true?

20 A. That has been observed by the Brigade Commander.

21 Q. "As well as obligations of security."

22 Now, we know from your own version of events that Ljubo Beara, the

23 Chief of Security for the Main Staff is heading the -- General Mladic's

24 plan to murder all the prisoners. And also according to yourself, he was

25 working hand in glove with Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, the Security Chief

1 for the Drina Corps; is that right?

2 A. May I respond to that question in private session, please?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Agree or disagree. I think all this information

4 came out as part of the public session. I'm not asking for details, just

5 if he can agree or disagree.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] General Krstic, could you just

7 say yes or no, please, to the question put to you by the Prosecutor.

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY:

10 Q. And then we have a restoration of the terrain. This is the term

11 "asanacija terena", in the B/C/S. Would restoration of the terrain

12 include the burying of the bodies at Orahovac and Petkovci?

13 A. I don't think that that was what it meant. The "asanacija",

14 restoration of the terrain in the fighting with the 28th Division, they

15 attacked from the rear the 21st Zvornik Brigade.

16 Q. General, my question is --

17 A. The 1st Zvornik Brigade. I apologise.

18 Q. The burying of bodies from the death field at Orahovac, would that

19 be considered "asanacija terena" or restoration of the terrain?

20 A. I don't know what the Commander of the brigade had in mind, but I

21 have answered your question. When you speak of "asanacija terena" or

22 restoration, is where combat activities have taken place. And whether it

23 encompasses what you have said, I don't know.

24 Q. Burying bodies after a mass execution can also be restoration of

25 the terrain, can it not?

1 A. I don't know who was engaged in that.

2 Q. General, my question is, it's a simple one: Burying the bodies on

3 the field at Orahovac, is that -- could that be referred to as restoration

4 of the terrain?

5 A. Restoration of the terrain after combat activities can imply a

6 collecting up the persons killed on both sides.

7 Q. Could the burying of the bodies in Orahovac be considered

8 restoration of the terrain?

9 A. I don't know whether burying bodies comes under the concept of

10 restoration of the terrain.

11 Q. It does in the situation of combat, doesn't it?

12 A. When there is combat, then there is the collection, and this is

13 done by the units in charge of restoration and gathering the bodies of

14 those who were killed on either side.

15 Q. So what does Vinko Pandurevic mean when he says "the burden for

16 us"? Is he speaking of the Zvornik Brigade?

17 A. I think he is speaking about the prisoners whom someone brought to

18 the area of responsibility of his brigade.

19 Q. I'm asking you what the meaning of "us" is.

20 A. The Zvornik Brigade probably.

21 Q. And if the Zvornik Brigade's obligations of security were the

22 obligations imposed on them by Colonel Beara, what would those obligations

23 have been?

24 A. Probably security, security of the facilities and features where

25 the prisoners were.

1 Q. Colonel Beara's job was to see to it that thousands of Muslim

2 prisoners were murdered; correct?

3 A. I answered that question earlier on.

4 Q. Next paragraph: "This command ..." Does he mean the Zvornik

5 Brigade command?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "This command cannot take care of these problems any longer."

8 Now, "these problems," these are the problems of obligation of security

9 and restoration of the terrain, are they not?

10 A. He is probably thinking of the security issue.

11 Q. The one we just spoke of regarding the responsibilities imposed

12 upon him by Ljubo Beara, pursuant to orders from General Mladic? I'm

13 sorry. I interrupted you. What was your answer? You said yes?

14 A. I didn't answer the question.

15 Q. Okay. Well, let me try to clear it up. So the problems that

16 Vinko Pandurevic cannot take care of any longer are the obligations of

17 security; is that right?

18 A. He is probably thinking of that.

19 Q. Therefore, by that sentence, "The command cannot take care of

20 these problems any longer," by that sentence we know that he has been

21 taking care of those problems up until the time he wrote this letter, can

22 we not?

23 A. I don't know when the prisoners of war started arriving there,

24 what that time period was. On the 14th, between the 14th and 15th of

25 July, he returned from Zepa to his own area of responsibility.

1 Q. "... as it has neither the material nor other resources. Now, the

2 material needed for the mass execution of hundreds of Muslims are

3 ammunition; correct?

4 A. I don't think he's thinking about that. I don't think Vinko

5 Pandurevic is thinking of ammunition.

6 Q. But the material needed for mass executions are ammunition;

7 correct?

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, ask the General

9 what material he thinks is necessary for executions, and then you can go

10 into the specificities of that.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY:

12 Q. General, what materials are needed for executions in the context

13 like Orahovac, when you have those sorts of numbers?

14 A. I don't know what materials are needed. That is something that

15 the person that did that, executed that, knew, and it wasn't Vinko

16 Pandurevic, and I am quite sure that he wasn't thinking of those

17 materials. If he was thinking of anything, he was probably thinking of

18 food for his brigade and for the prisoners of war. He does not speak here

19 at all about executions of any kind.

20 Q. "If no one takes on this responsibility, I will be forced to let

21 them go." Who is he referring to? Letting who go?

22 A. Probably the prisoners of war.

23 Q. Located in the schools distributed throughout his area?

24 A. That's what he said: in the schools.

25 Q. So are you saying that the burden that he's concerned with is the

1 care and feeding of those prisoners; if someone doesn't take care of the

2 care and feeding of those prisoners, he's going to have to let them go?

3 A. Precisely so.

4 Q. Those are the prisoners that were blindfolded and murdered on the

5 field of Orahovac, weren't they?

6 A. I don't know whether at that time when Vinko Pandurevic was

7 writing his report whether the prisoners of war were blindfolded, had

8 blindfolds on their eyes, because he doesn't speak about that in his

9 report.

10 Q. Do you remember the survivor witnesses who described the dead that

11 piled up in the gym, that died of exposure or something else and were

12 pushed off into a corner of the gym?

13 A. I remember when a witness spoke about that, but Vinko Pandurevic,

14 in his report, makes no mention of that anywhere.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 627.

16 JUDGE WALD: Can I just ask a couple of questions to straighten

17 something out.

18 Vinko Pandurevic had been with you, General, at the forward

19 command post before he was called back to his brigade down in Zvornik; is

20 that right? He had been up in Zepa with you?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 JUDGE WALD: At the forward command post? Go ahead.

23 A. I apologise. He wasn't at the forward command post, he was with

24 his unit in the area of deployment for the completion of the assignment

25 towards Zepa. So he was in that area towards Zepa.

1 JUDGE WALD: I understand. So he would have known where you were

2 though. He knew at that time that you were at the command post, would he

3 not, at the forward command post?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE WALD: So when he went back -- when he was called back to

6 Zvornik to take care of this situation and then when he sent his

7 communique, Exhibit 609, who -- it was addressed to the Drina Corps

8 Command; was that not right? I don't have it in front of me, but I think

9 that's right. Is it addressed to the Drina Corps Command?

10 Who would he have expected was at the Drina Corps Command to

11 receive that communique?

12 A. This communique was to be received by the Corps Commander,

13 General Zivanovic.

14 JUDGE WALD: Was General Zivanovic at the regular command post at

15 that time on July 15th when he sent it?

16 A. He was the Corps Commander.

17 JUDGE WALD: I know he was Corps Commander. I'm just asking you

18 whether you know whether on July 15th, when this was sent, he was at the

19 corps command post at Pribicevac.

20 A. I don't know whether he was at the command post in Vlasenica or

21 whether he was somewhere in the area, in the area of responsibility of the

22 corps and those brigades.

23 JUDGE WALD: All right. My last question to you is: Did

24 Pandurevic return to the Zepa front after July 15th? Did he come back to

25 his -- the parts of his unit that were in Zepa after July 15th? Did he

1 return or did he stay down in Zvornik with that part of his brigade?

2 A. He stayed in Zvornik. He did not go back to Zepa.

3 JUDGE WALD: I see. So when was -- when was the next time after

4 July 15th that you saw or had reason to talk to Pandurevic personally,

5 face to face? Do you remember when you next saw him personally?

6 A. I don't remember when I next saw him.

7 JUDGE WALD: Do you remember whether it would be weeks or months

8 later or a few days later?

9 A. I think I saw Colonel Pandurevic with his unit in the area of

10 responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps in Western Bosnia when I went

11 there to tour the units in that corps and his unit among all the others.

12 JUDGE WALD: And last part of my question: At that time, although

13 that was later, obviously, at that time did you have any discussion or

14 conversation with Colonel Pandurevic about these events?

15 A. No, I did not talk to him.

16 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you, General.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] General, I too have two

18 questions for you. Pandurevic, he left for his area of responsibility,

19 but before that he was with you at the Zepa operation. That was the zone

20 or what was -- what were his tasks, his assignments in the Zepa

21 operation? Could you remind me of that, please?

22 A. He had his own assignment stemming -- pursuant to the order for

23 Zepa with part of his unit, like all the other units that were engaged for

24 Zepa.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And his brigade, where was it

1 deployed? What area?

2 A. You mean towards Zepa? It was deployed in the area of Podplan,

3 which was the area of deployment when the unit arrived in the area, and

4 from there it was to go to accomplish its assignment towards Zepa.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Therefore, he had to leave. Did

6 he inform you that he would have to leave?

7 A. He received orders. He got orders from me, that is to say, from

8 General Zivanovic, in fact. General Zivanovic called and said that he had

9 to return urgently with his unit, and that was on the 14th of July. I

10 think it was in the afternoon hours, that the situation was highly complex

11 and serious in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade. And I

12 conveyed that to Colonel Pandurevic, and in the course of the night,

13 between the 14th and 15th, he returned to his own area of responsibility.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Complex and difficult for what

15 reasons? When I say "complex and difficult," why? I'm asking whether you

16 know, whether you were informed of the reasons that led to the situation

17 and which led to conclude that the situation was difficult and complex.

18 A. First of all, because of the attack of the 2nd Corps of the

19 BH army from the direction of Tuzla towards the area of responsibility of

20 the brigade and because of the attack of the 28th Division from the rear,

21 the flanks of that brigade.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was there any mention of the

23 existence of prisoners?

24 A. No. There was no mention at all of the presence of prisoners.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please continue,

1 Mr. McCloskey.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Q. Who was in charge of the brigade command in the absence of

4 Commander Pandurevic up in Zvornik?

5 A. The Chief of Staff of that brigade, Major Obrenovic.

6 Q. And who would have been the person that would have briefed

7 Pandurevic on the situation in his brigade when Colonel Pandurevic

8 returned on the 15th of July?

9 A. He should have been briefed and informed on the situation by his

10 Chief of Staff, Major Obrenovic.

11 Q. You spoke to Major Obrenovic on the 15th of July, didn't you? You

12 had been very clear that the only time you ever found out anything about

13 anything in the Zvornik area while you were in Zepa was in a communication

14 with that brigade.

15 A. Yes. After General Zivanovic called the forward command post,

16 Major Obrenovic called as well. I don't remember whether I talked to him

17 or it was Colonel Vicic or Major Jevdjevic who talked to him, but at any

18 rate, it happened in the afternoon hours of the 14th. And the contents of

19 the conversation was similar to what was said by General Zivanovic, that

20 is, that the situation was very difficult and that one part of the Zvornik

21 Brigade should return to its area of responsibility, and Obrenovic said

22 that the order of General Zivanovic was conveyed to Colonel Pandurevic.

23 Q. So on 14 July there was a full briefing of the Drina Corps

24 command, including yourself, on the situation in the Zvornik Brigade area

25 of responsibility?

1 A. No, not me. I was informed by the Corps Commander. I am his

2 subordinate. I was the Chief of Staff. I was informed that the situation

3 was difficult, that one part of the Zvornik Brigade should be returned to

4 its area of responsibility.

5 Q. There was a -- the command staff was briefed by Major Obrenovic on

6 the situation in the Zvornik area on the 14th of July?

7 A. Major Obrenovic called the forward command post after General

8 Zivanovic, and he said that the situation was difficult and he requested

9 that the brigade commander be returned with one part of his brigade to

10 their area of responsibility.

11 Q. So Major Obrenovic actually called the Krivaca forward command

12 post, where you were working?

13 A. Yes. Through the Drina Corps command, through the communications

14 centre in Vlasenica, that is, the Drina Corps headquarters.

15 Q. So you were able to get information either directly from Obrenovic

16 or from whoever he talked to at that point, on the 14th?

17 A. I have already answered that question.

18 Q. I would like to clarify this issue, if I could. I think it's an

19 important issue. So you were able to get information either directly from

20 Obrenovic or from whoever talked to him at that point on the 14th of July?

21 A. I first received the information from the Corps Commander and his

22 order as to what Vinko Pandurevic should do. After that Dragan Obrenovic,

23 the Chief of Staff of the brigade, called, and he requested that one

24 portion of the brigade be returned, that the situation in the brigade's

25 area of responsibility was difficult. And he was told that Colonel

1 Pandurevic had already been ordered to do that. There was not any other

2 information that was provided from Dragan Obrenovic to either myself or to

3 anyone else at the forward command post at Krivaca.

4 Q. At what time on the 14th did Dragan Obrenovic call the forward

5 command post?

6 A. In the afternoon hours of that day, in the evening. I don't

7 remember the exact time.

8 Q. I don't need an exact time, General, but afternoon/evening, is

9 that your best estimate?

10 A. I think that it was sometime around 1800 hours, just before the

11 evening.

12 Q. So a full briefing, then, on the events that had been going on on

13 the afternoon of the 14th in the Zvornik Brigade area would include what?

14 A. First of all, that was not a full briefing. All that was said was

15 that the situation in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade

16 was difficult.

17 Q. General, my question was: What would a full briefing -- assuming

18 he gave you a full briefing, what would a full briefing have involved?

19 A. It is very difficult to respond to assumptions; however, Major

20 Obrenovic referred to a difficult situation because of the attack of the

21 2nd Corps from the direction of Tuzla and because of the attack of the

22 28th Brigade in the rear of the 1st Zvornik Brigade.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] General, I'm sorry to interrupt

24 you. This is not an assumption, what we are talking about here. We are

25 talking about military practice and military rules and regulation. That

1 is to say, when a subordinate is supposed to inform his superior about a

2 certain situation, does he have to tell him everything that has happened

3 in the meantime or not? So that was the essence of the question. So if

4 he has to brief him on the situation, what exactly it is that he is

5 supposed to tell him? So we are talking about the military structure here

6 and the chain of command, rules and regulations. Please, General.

7 A. Major Obrenovic spoke only about the difficulty of the situation

8 in his area of responsibility, that the attacks from the direction of

9 Tuzla and by the 28th Division were very fierce, and he wanted the forces

10 of the brigade to be returned, the forces of the brigade that were engaged

11 in the area of Zepa. That was all he said. That was the request made by

12 Major Obrenovic. He didn't speak about anything else.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but General, if we say that

14 a subordinate officer informs his superior officer -- I'm talking about

15 the chain of command here -- and if he tells him, "I'm in a very difficult

16 and a very complex situation," you, as the Chief of Staff, do you accept

17 this as a piece of information? Don't you ask the reasons why? Don't you

18 want to know what kind of information exactly we are talking about?

19 Because if you say the situation is very difficult and complex, you're

20 merely providing an opinion. The person who has to take certain measures

21 and certain decisions has to know what the situation is in reality and

22 what the reasons are. So what we are talking about is: Did he have to

23 explain that piece of information or was it sufficient for him to say that

24 he was in a difficult and a complex situation?

25 A. Your Honour, it was by all means enough, the fact that he said

1 that the situation in his area of responsibility was very complex and

2 difficult. He didn't convey to him any other piece of information to that

3 effect.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. You have answered

5 the question.

6 Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. General Krstic, would a full explanation of the situation in the

9 brigade's zone of responsibility on the afternoon/evening hours of the

10 14th include the facts that they had to store thousands of prisoners in

11 the schools in their area and they had to spend most of the day executing

12 them and burying them, that particular situation? Shouldn't that have

13 been part of a full briefing by Major Obrenovic?

14 A. No. No. Major Obrenovic didn't even speak about that.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we can go to Exhibit --

16 JUDGE WALD: I've got one last question. When General Zivanovic

17 asked you to relay the order to Major Pandurevic that he should go back

18 and rejoin the rest of his brigade down in Zvornik, where was General

19 Zivanovic physically located? When he told you to relay that order to

20 Pandurevic, where was he?

21 A. He was at the Vlasenica command post. This is where he called me

22 from.

23 JUDGE WALD: Right. And that was on the 14th, right?

24 A. Yes, on the 14th.

25 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. I just wanted to get that.

1 MR. McCLOSKEY:

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question was

6 previously raised in a private session because it concerns information as

7 to who gave that particular piece of information to General Krstic. So I

8 should like to ask to either move into private session or for the question

9 to be withdrawn, bearing in mind the fact that the broadcast is 30 minutes

10 delayed.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I apologise. I think Mr. Petrusic

12 is correct.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, I'm sorry, I was

14 waiting for the interpretation.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I apologise. I believe Mr. Petrusic is correct on

16 that point, and it would be more appropriate to go into private session

17 based on our agreements and rulings.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well then. We will move

19 into a private session

20 [Private session]

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22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We are in public session.

24 Please continue, Mr. McCloskey.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY:

1 Q. General, how many kilometres is it from Vlasenica to Zvornik?

2 A. Approximately 50 kilometres, I think.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 627A.

4 Q. Now, this is an intercept that the Prosecution has dated as 16

5 July, at 1111 hours, between Colonel Ljubo Beara and a Cerovic. Can you

6 remind the Court: There is a Cerovic in the Drina Corps staff, in the --

7 is it -- I'm sorry. What is Cerovic's position? I'm running out of

8 words, thankfully.

9 A. Assistant commander for morale, religious, and legal affairs.

10 Q. What does the term "triage" mean to you in a military medical

11 sense?

12 A. In a military sense, as in any other sense, first of all, I think

13 it comes from medicine, this particular expression, "triage." It has to

14 do with the separation of the sick and the wounded and their further

15 treatment. When it comes to the army, this is something that is also done

16 in peacetime as well. Every day triage has to be done on the soldiers,

17 and after the triage they are sent further on for further treatment or

18 examination, if necessary.

19 Q. Are you familiar with the name Trkulja? Is there a Trkulja in the

20 Drina Corps or the Main Staff that was involved in the events around

21 Zvornik between July 16th and July 18th?

22 A. I should like to ask for a private session, if possible, please.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Security reasons again, General

24 Krstic?

25 A. Yes.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us go into private session,

2 please, then.

3 [Private session]

17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue, Mr. McCloskey.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have Exhibit 630A bis. This again is

20 a 16 July intercept, at 1355 hours, between Zlatar and Palma.

21 Q. General, to direct you down near the bottom, this appears to be

22 someone asking for a -- "Just have him brief me on what's new for Zlatar

23 1." So that means someone is looking for a briefing for the Drina Corps

24 headquarters or the Drina Corps Commander, or can you tell?

25 A. I really don't know who the person in question is here. This was

1 an intercept, an intercepted conversation. "Palma" refers to the Zvornik

2 Brigade, and "Zlatar" is the code name for the Drina Corps centre.

3 Q. My question was: When this makes a reference to Zlatar 1, do you

4 know if that is for -- a briefing for the Drina Corps centre as a command

5 or is it a specific reference to the commander of the Drina Corps?

6 A. I don't know what this refers to.

7 Q. And they made a small corridor so the civilians could pull out.

8 And in fact, on the 16th of July Vinko Pandurevic did make a small

9 corridor so the Muslim civilians, as well as soldiers, could go through to

10 the free territory; is that right?

11 A. This is what I heard here during the trial.

12 Q. The first time you ever heard about Vinko Pandurevic letting out

13 the Muslim soldiers and civilians was at this trial?

14 A. I believe it was the first time, yes.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour --

16 JUDGE WALD: I have one further question.

17 General, would Colonel Pandurevic have had the military authority

18 and structure of the army to make a decision like allowing a corridor so

19 that part of this column, which consisted some of soldiers, some of

20 civilians, could go through, or would he, under military structure then in

21 operation, have had to get somebody's consent for that, to create a small

22 corridor so that civilians and military who had been up to this time,

23 apparently, being both fought and captured and taken prisoner, could now

24 go through? Could he have done that on his own authority or did he have

25 to get someone else's authority to create that corridor?

1 A. I will answer your question regardless of this document. An

2 approval has to be given by the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS for

3 something like that.

4 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: One quick question on that subject.

6 Q. Vinko Pandurevic got in a little bit of trouble for doing this

7 without the commander's authority, didn't he?

8 A. I don't know that.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] This seems to be a convenient

10 time for a break, 15-minute break.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.33 a.m.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, you may

14 continue.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 If we could have Exhibit 620A.

17 This is a 16 July intercept at 1358 hours, between the Zlatar duty officer

18 and the Palma duty officer initially, and then it goes into several names.

19 Q. General Krstic, if you could take a look at that. I know you've

20 seen that before.

21 Now, this intercept involves, and I'll start at the third line:

22 "Palma duty officer speaking. 500 litres of D2 for Lieutenant

23 Colonel Popovic."

24 Then it goes down and says, "Hello, is that Basevic? And then

25 somebody finally says, "Yes, it is."

1 Is there a Basevic in the Drina Corps staff, General Krstic?

2 A. There were several Basevics, quite a few Basevics in the Drina

3 Corps staff. Among others, there was Basevic in the command of the Drina

4 Corps.

5 Q. Yes. In the command, what was the Basevic in the command?

6 A. Basevic was a clerk in the technical service, in the logistics

7 base of the Corps Command.

8 Q. So would he deal with fuel allocations as part of his job?

9 A. I don't know whether that is his job.

10 Q. In this field, in the command staff, you have no idea whether or

11 not he might be involved in getting fuel allocations at times in the

12 Technical Services Branch?

13 A. That is ensured by the Assistant Commander for Logistics, and from

14 the Technical Service as well that would be to be too, from the Traffic

15 and Communications Service as well.

16 Q. On 16 July, there were buses -- by the evidence that has been

17 presented in this case, there were buses travelling from the Kula school

18 in Pilica to the Branjevo farm all day long transporting prisoners to the

19 execution fields at Branjevo farm. And if Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was

20 going to need fuel for those buses, how would he go about getting it if he

21 started running out of fuel?

22 A. I don't know at all whether he dealt in fuel, Lieutenant Colonel

23 Popovic, whether he needed fuel at all.

24 Q. My question was: If Popovic did need fuel for any job, how would

25 he go about getting it?

1 A. He would request the Assistant Commander for Logistics.

2 Q. For the Drina Corps?

3 A. Yes, of the Drina Corps.

4 Q. So he would do something like in one of the lines down near the

5 bottom: "He just called me from the field and told me to pass you the

6 message over there."

7 So Popovic might call from the field from the Drina Corps and pass

8 the message on that he needed fuel? That would be one day to do it?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. All right. On the second page of the English there's a mention

11 that: "Well, then get in touch with Rosevic." Do you know a Rosevic in

12 the Drina Corps Command Staff?

13 A. We didn't have any Rosevic in the Drina Corps Command Staff. I

14 don't know that surname at all in connection with the Drina Corps.

15 Q. There's a place called Rocevic near Kozluk, isn't there?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Is the Basevic you're referring to in the technical service a

18 clerk?

19 A. We didn't mention any Vasic in the Technical Service.

20 Q. I'm sorry. It was Basevic.

21 A. Yes, in the Technical Service.

22 Q. Isn't there, in fact, a Major Basevic, that you used to drive to

23 work with, in the Technical Services?

24 A. I don't know. That was Lieutenant Colonel Basevic. I don't know

25 whether he was a Major at that time.

1 Q. And what was his job?

2 A. His job was to see to the fact that the technical equipment

3 functioned properly.

4 Q. Could he be involved in the fuel?

5 A. A technical state of weapons. I don't know.

6 Q. Okay. On the second page in the English, in the middle, it says,

7 "Give me the operations duty officer. Is Major Golic there by chance?"

8 And then someone answers, "Yes," and then the person says, "Let me talk to

9 him." And then the person says, "Golic, Pop just called me and told me to

10 contact you. 500 litres of D2 to be sent to him immediately, otherwise,

11 his work will stop." Then it talks about a bus loaded with fuel going to

12 Pilica village.

13 Now, we know that Pilica village is the village that the Kula

14 school is located at, don't we?

15 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we cannot hear the General's answer.

16 The microphone does not seem to switch on for the first one of words.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY:

18 Q. They're not getting your response, so you may need to try to speak

19 into the microphone. It may be a faulty mic. So try to speak up if you

20 could, I think.

21 A. I apologise. I turned my head towards the map. The village of

22 Pilica is on the road towards Zvornik.

23 Q. And then at the bottom of the page we have Lieutenant Colonel

24 Krsmanovic, who we've learned was -- what was his job again?

25 A. In the Drina Corps we had several Krsmanovics as well, and

1 Krsmanovic was the head of the Traffic Department in the Command of the

2 Drina Corps.

3 Q. He was a Lieutenant Colonel at the time?

4 A. Yes. He was a Lieutenant Colonel.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go to 619A.

6 Q. General, what is this document?

7 A. It is a material list.

8 Q. And what is the purpose of this document?

9 A. The purpose of every material list is what has been issued and

10 received with respect to the technical resources and materiel.

11 Q. And so the substance of this exhibit indicates that Lieutenant

12 Colonel Popovic received 500 litres of diesel fuel; is that right?

13 A. I did not compile this document. It says here to whom it is

14 dispatched.

15 Q. And that addressee station is for Lieutenant Colonel Popovic?

16 A. Yes. In the document that's what it says.

17 Q. And is the Zvornik Brigade involved in any way in this document?

18 A. It has the stamp of the Zvornik Brigade, the military post from

19 Zvornik, but whether this is its military post, I don't know. There were

20 other military posts, apart from the Zvornik Brigade military post, in

21 Zvornik.

22 Q. Do you see any personnel from the Main Staff mentioned in this

23 document?

24 A. I don't see it, no. I don't know who it refers to.

25 Q. So do you see any indication in this document that the Main Staff

1 is involved in this transaction in any way?

2 A. I don't know who these individuals are, the signatures of these

3 individuals, so I can't comment.

4 Q. In space 14, under -- is it name and address of recipient, in the

5 original I believe it just -- it says "KDK." And what does that mean?

6 A. KDK could be an abbreviation for the command of the Drina Corps.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that is my understanding is the

8 meaning of that, and I note that the translation says "commander of the

9 Drina Corps," and that should be changed and corrected to be "command of

10 the Drina Corps."

11 THE INTERPRETER: Command of the Drina Corps. The interpreter

12 apologises.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we'll try to have that straightened out for

14 your exhibits. If we could now go to Exhibit 63A [sic].

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, just one moment,

16 please. [In English] I would like to see the document, please.

17 [Interpretation] General Krstic, you have before you, and on the ELMO as

18 well, you're reading the special service organ: "M. Krstic." Could you

19 tell us who that person is?

20 A. I don't know who that person M. Krstic is.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I can see in the English

22 version, and I haven't got the B/C/S version, but I think that there is a

23 signature, at least in the B/C/S version. Is there in fact a signature?

24 Does a signature exist? And if so, do you know that signature? Do you

25 recognise the signature, General Krstic?

1 A. No, I do not. There were a number of Krstics in the logistics

2 base, in Sokolac, for example, in the 35th Base in Bijeljina, and there

3 are people with the surname Krstic on the territory of the Zvornik

4 municipality as well. I don't know whether they had any particular

5 Krstic.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but to have diesel fuel,

7 would this document have to go to Sokolac or Bijeljina?

8 A. Well, supplies for all the units in the area came from the

9 logistic base at Sokolac and Bijeljina, and I think that the Zvornik

10 Brigade relied on logistic supplies at the 35th Base in Bijeljina. They

11 relied on that base.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

13 Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, for the record, Mr. Butler

15 testified about this document, and I believe he identified these names.

16 It is not part of the Prosecution's submission that this M. Krstic is the

17 General. We believe he's a conscript in the Zvornik Brigade. And there's

18 a Milorad Krstic in the logistics branch. There's also, at the bottom

19 right-hand corner, received by Branko Bogicevic. There's also a Zvornik

20 person by that name also.

21 And if we then -- I think we're at Exhibit 635A, and the

22 transcript may have -- may be wrong when I mentioned this before, so we

23 should try to fix that, if possible. It's 635/A.

24 This is a 16 July intercept in the afternoon of 1602 hours,

25 between Zlatar and Palma, and Zlatar says: "Give me 01."

1 Q. Who would 01 be, General, in this context?

2 A. Zlatar 01. I don't know whether anybody had that name, code

3 name. I don't know whether it was the duty officer, operative officer or

4 the Corps Commander, or what.

5 Q. Isn't 01 the Corps Commander?

6 A. No. I don't know that 01 referred to the Corps Commander. That

7 is not stated in any document. It doesn't say in any document that the

8 commander is referred to as 01. He has his name and surname and his rank

9 and duty.

10 Q. And extension 385, that's the same extension that in the intercept

11 of 15 July that General Zivanovic referred Colonel Beara to call. Does it

12 help refresh your recollection on the 385 and whose extension that may

13 have been on 16 July?

14 A. I don't know.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 638/1A, and if the

16 General could be given the B/C/S version, which is 638/1B.

17 Q. General Krstic, while you were in -- operating in Zepa, did you

18 ever need fuel?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Never had to go through Basevic to get some fuel?

21 A. There was no need. The fuel for motor vehicles was not very often

22 used. The vehicles were not often used. And as I have already said in

23 relation to the Srebrenica operation, the units that took part in the

24 operation relied on their logistical support.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have Exhibit 622A now. This is a

1 16 July intercept at 2116 hours between Colonel Popovic, who asked to be

2 connected with General Krstic, and Krstic was not there so he asked to be

3 connected with the OC.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, I will take this

5 opportunity and tell you that there is a correction that needs to be done

6 on the transcript, as the registrar has just informed me.

7 Madam Registrar, what is it all about? Could you tell us?

8 THE REGISTRAR: It's Exhibit 635/A. You said "635/1A," so I just

9 wanted to clarify.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mine had "1A" on it, but I think we know which one

11 it is. Thank you.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY:

14 Q. Now, General, if you could take a moment -- have they given you

15 the B/C/S version of this?

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: The General needs the B/C/S version of 622A. He

17 can have mine if that will simplify it.

18 Q. General, if you could take a moment to familiarise yourself with

19 this intercept which we have again seen before.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Your question, Mr. McCloskey,

21 please.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY:

23 Q. General Krstic, this begins by, as I stated, that Lieutenant

24 Colonel Popovic asked to be connected with General Krstic, and he was not

25 there, so he then asked to be connected with the OC. What is the OC in

1 the context of someone calling the Drina Corps Command?

2 A. I can talk about this not only in this particular context but in

3 general [as interpreted]. This refers to the operations centre where the

4 duty operations officer usually sits.

5 Q. And do you know someone that may have been on duty in the

6 operations centre on 16 July named Rasic, with the nickname Rale?

7 A. As far as I know, at the Drina Corps we did not have an officer by

8 the surname of Rasic, especially not within the Command of the Drina

9 Corps. I don't think that any of the officers with the surname of Rasic

10 would be there with whom Lieutenant Colonel Popovic would contact

11 concerning the Drina Corps.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Visnjic.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, line 22, which is

14 still on the screen, I believe that the answer was not interpreted in

15 precise terms. The General actually said, "I cannot speak about this

16 particular context but only in general terms."

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

18 Mr. Visnjic. I too heard that.

19 Does the Prosecutor have any objections? Is there an answer that

20 needs to be corrected? No? Very well. Thank you. The transcript has

21 been corrected. Thank you very much, Mr. Visnjic.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY:

23 Q. Is there an operations centre at the Main Staff?

24 A. At every command, starting from the brigade or regimental level,

25 there would be an operations centre and a duty operations officer there.

1 Q. But to find you on 16 July, what operations centre would anyone

2 call to find you, who, as you say, were at the forward command post in

3 Krivaca?

4 A. In this particular context, I see no reason at all for Lieutenant

5 Colonel Popovic to ask for me. I didn't know where that person was, and,

6 well, if he wanted to look for me, he should have done so through the

7 operations centre of the Drina Corps Command.

8 Q. I understand that, General, but my question was: If someone was

9 to try to call you at the Krivaca forward command post, let's say from

10 Zvornik, what operations centre would they call?

11 A. The operations centre of the Drina Corps Command.

12 Q. And then the operations centre, to find you, would patch them down

13 to you at the Krivaca forward command post. Is that how it works?

14 A. Yes. That's what the communications people know best.

15 Q. But you know it too?

16 A. As far as I know, I myself being from the infantry, this is a type

17 of communication.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. Mediation in communication.

20 Q. And when communication comes through Zvornik to the operations

21 centre and gets patched down to the forward command post in Krivaca, those

22 communications are on open lines and interceptable, are they not?

23 A. Those lines are protected ones.

24 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we didn't hear the beginning of the

25 answer.

1 MR. McCLOSKEY:

2 Q. General, they had a hard time hearing you again. Your voice is

3 falling off, so you need to try to speak into the mic if you can.

4 A. Those are the protected lines.

5 Q. But a communications person may know better than you about these

6 particular lines, would he not? Say --

7 A. Yes, in any case.

8 Q. Okay. On page 2 of the English there's a mention of Vidoje

9 Blagojevic, who, as we know now, is the commander of the Bratunac Brigade,

10 and there's talk in this intercept of Blagojevic's men arriving to some

11 event on the 16th associated with Colonel Popovic, late. Do you recall

12 Drazen Erdemovic's testimony that the men from Bratunac arrived in the

13 afternoon to assist them in the executions at Branjevo Farm on July 16th?

14 A. Yes. He spoke about that.

15 Q. There's mention of a --

16 A. I mean, Erdemovic did, but I don't know whether these are the

17 soldiers in question. I'm not familiar with the fact that they were

18 detached [as interpreted] and under whose orders, except for what I heard

19 during the trial and on the basis of documents, and yesterday during your

20 examination, that as of the 14th, one or two companies of the Zvornik

21 Brigade had to be dispatched for the purposes of reinforcement, for combat

22 operations with the forces of the 2nd Corps of the BH army, and the 28th

23 Division of the BH army as well.

24 Q. By my interpretation, you said, "One or two companies of the

25 Zvornik Brigade had to be dispatched." Did you mean Bratunac Brigade or

1 Zvornik Brigade?

2 A. In the report of Colonel Milanovic and Colonel Blagojevic, the

3 report of the 14th or the 15th, I don't think -- I don't know exactly the

4 date -- that somebody ordered that one to two companies should be sent to

5 the Zvornik Brigade for the purposes of reinforcing the troops of the

6 Zvornik Brigade in combat operations along the front lines.

7 Q. Yes, but those were Bratunac Brigade troops that were sent up to

8 Zvornik, is that right, not Zvornik Brigade troops?

9 A. Yes, yes, of the Bratunac Brigade.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 650A.

11 THE WITNESS: Sorry to interrupt you. I am referring -- I'm

12 talking about this in the context of the previous documents, the documents

13 that we have already discussed, not in the context of this particular

14 document.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, if the General could be given the B/C/S

16 version of this. And I know it's a little difficult to make out. This is

17 another familiar intercept from 17 July at 0615 hours. And by the note at

18 the top, it is between General Krstic and Captain Trbic, and then

19 switchboard and then Pandurevic.

20 Q. First of all, General, is there a Captain Trbic in Zvornik, that

21 you know?

22 A. No, I don't know that there was a person by that surname.

23 Q. Isn't there a Captain Trbic that worked in the security branch

24 under Drago Nikolic, Chief of Zvornik Security?

25 A. No. I'm not familiar with that at all. I didn't even know who

1 the chief of Zvornik security was until this trial; in particular, the

2 fact that a Captain Trbic would have been with that particular service.

3 Q. So if we read the first couple of lines, it starts off with T

4 saying, "Yes," and then K: "General Krstic." And then T says, "Go ahead,

5 General, sir. This is duty operations officer, Captain Trbic." And then

6 Krstic says, "Trbic!" And then T says, "Yes. Go ahead." And then Krstic

7 says, "What's new?"

8 At 0615 hours on 17 July are you already up and about?

9 A. I was not involved in this conversation at all. I didn't take

10 part in it. There's no -- security chiefs are never on duty within an

11 operations service. They have their own duty service. This is something

12 that is regulated with the military rules.

13 Q. I understand that's --

14 A. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. McCloskey. -- if this Captain

15 Trbic was at all with the Security Service.

16 Q. General, I understand that's your general response to these

17 intercepts. I would like to ask you just specific questions related to

18 their substance or their names on them.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: But I see, Your Honour, that it's break time.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, it is indeed. We will have

21 a 15-minute break at this point.

22 --- Recess taken at 11.17 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue, Mr. McCloskey.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

1 Q. General Krstic, I'll read a bit more of this and then ask you

2 about some of the information in it, and after it said Trbic, "T" says,

3 "Yes? Go ahead." And "K" says, "What's new?" And "T" says, "Well,

4 everything is under control so far. There are no problems to yesterday's

5 report."

6 Now, you have seen the interim daily combat report of July 16th

7 from Vinko Pandurevic where he describes the combat situation that

8 occurred between the column and 2nd Corps where all the Serb casualties

9 occurred. Did you receive that interim combat report of 16 July from

10 Vinko Pandurevic describing the situation that I've just described?

11 A. May I have the exhibit, please, the interim combat report of the

12 16th?

13 Q. General, we can get that for you, but the question is: Did you

14 receive that -- if you need to read the report. Did you receive any

15 interim combat reports down in Krivaca on the 16th?

16 A. From the Bratunac Brigade and Colonel Milanovic. Apart from that,

17 I didn't receive any interim combat reports, apart from the ones from the

18 Bratunac Brigade and Colonel Milanovic. Maybe that was dispatched to the

19 Command of the Drina Corps. That is why I would like to have a look at

20 the exhibit, and I should like to ask if I may be shown the exhibit,

21 please.

22 Q. Well, I'll withdraw the questions regarding that, because I don't

23 have it on hand right now, but we'll try to bring that back.

24 So on the 16th of July, many Muslim soldiers were killed in the

25 Zvornik Brigade area of responsibility, were they not?

1 A. I learnt of that during the proceedings here.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could provide the General Exhibit 614A.

3 It is the interim combat report of 16 July. The B/C/S version there. And

4 if you could put the English version on the ELMO.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. McCloskey, could you clarify your question when

6 you said on the 16th of July, many Muslim soldiers were killed in the

7 Zvornik Brigade area of responsibility. You mean killed in battle or

8 murdered?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. I mean killed in battle.

10 Q. You can ignore the highlighted remarks or the highlighted parts.

11 I think that's just our internal ...

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could move the -- yeah. Move it up some

13 more so we can get the full context of the English report.

14 Q. It is the submission of the Prosecution, General, that in this

15 intercept, the question, "Okay. Have you killed the Turks up there?" was

16 reference to the Muslim column that were killed during battle and that the

17 report in question is this report before you, which makes reference to

18 having several hundred Muslims killed in a combat operation on 16 July.

19 And I note in the intercept, "T" says, "Well, I guess you got the

20 report. What more can I tell you?" And "K" says, "I got it." And,

21 again, this is Exhibit 650A.

22 So now that you've had a chance to review this, did you receive

23 this particular interim combat report, 650A?

24 A. You mentioned this exhibit and this conversation. This is -- I

25 never had this conversation with Trbic, neither did I ever get this

1 interim combat report because it was not sent to the forward command

2 post.

3 Q. All right. Is it your understanding that the column was broken up

4 during this combat that occurred on the 16th of July?

5 A. On the basis of this report you mean? Do you mean this report?

6 Q. On the basis of your knowledge, getting it from anything, this

7 report, this court, your experience, your participation.

8 A. I had no previous knowledge about that at all.

9 Q. Let's go down towards the bottom of the page of the Exhibit 650A,

10 the intercept, where according to the intercept there's a conversation now

11 between Krstic -- General Krstic and Vinko, and makes a reference that the

12 Vinko is a commander. The Commander of the Zvornik Brigade is named Vinko

13 Pandurevic; is that correct?

14 A. That's correct, yes.

15 Q. And I'll read the relevant passage.

16 "K: This is Krstic.

17 P: Hello, General, sir.

18 K: Hello, Vinko. Vinko!

19 P: Go ahead.

20 K: Are there any changes in reference to that report?

21 P: Nothing significant. Basically, we'll probably finish this

22 today.

23 K: Finish it?

24 P: Yes.

25 K: Good.

1 P: We'll go up there today to comb it and consolidate and the

2 defence line will practically be where it used to be. There

3 is a stretch about 300-400 metres long that's open. Those

4 three trenches of ours. We are parallel to them and so far

5 there have been no problems."

6 Did you have this conversation with Vinko Pandurevic on this date,

7 17 July?

8 A. I have already said that I never had this conversation.

9 Q. Were you aware that the position of the front lines didn't change

10 very much after the major battle that occurred on the 16th of July?

11 A. I didn't know about these problems at all, except for what Colonel

12 Cerovic, on the 20th of July, told me at the forward command post of

13 Godjinje [phoen], but I had no other information than that.

14 Q. Did you get information about the front lines and the positioning

15 of the front lines in Zvornik after this combat?

16 A. No. As I have already said, this report was not sent to the

17 forward command post but to the command of the Drina Corps. It never

18 reached the forward command post.

19 Q. Were you concerned, after a major battle, whether or not the front

20 line had changed at all at this time, July 17th? Wouldn't that be

21 something you would be concerned about no matter what your position?

22 A. Probably it would. If the situation were such, of the type that

23 you have described, then somebody would order the offensive to be stopped

24 towards Zepa.

25 Q. What did Cerovic tell you about?

1 A. He said -- briefly, he informed me about that area of

2 responsibility of the corps on the 20th. He said that there were a lot of

3 problems, considerable problems, in the area of responsibility of the

4 Zvornik Brigade, and that an offensive had been launched from the Tuzla

5 direction by the forces of the 2nd Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

6 and the 28th Division, from the rear. He also told me that the situation

7 had been normalised on the 20th, when he informed me of that, and he also

8 told me that pursuant to orders of the Main Staff, we should set aside a

9 portion of the units and send them to the area of responsibility of the

10 2nd Corps, to deploy them there.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting,

12 Mr. McCloskey, but I have a question.

13 General Krstic, you said that Cerovic, I think, informed you that

14 there had been quite a number of problems. Did he specify? Did he

15 mention the type of problems that were being encountered? What type of

16 problems?

17 A. Nothing special. He just said that they were having problems and

18 that the situation in the area of responsibility of Zvornik and the 1st

19 Birac Brigade had been brought back to normal. He said that the situation

20 had been normalised. That's how he described it.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you have the

22 curiosity -- were you curious to know what type of problems they had been

23 having?

24 A. Because he described the situation in the way he did, I didn't ask

25 him anything special, because the Zepa operation was ongoing and I had to

1 continue with the implementation of my assignments in that regard.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but as commander, are you

3 convinced that one can learn by the problems one is having to avoid them

4 in future, avoid having the same problems in future?

5 A. He didn't speak about any special problems except for the ones he

6 mentioned, and quite simply --

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, General, but the question

8 is, and I'm going to repeat the question: He said that he was having

9 considerable problems, but were you not interested in knowing what those

10 problems actually were, what his problems were? Were you curious to know?

11 A. All he said was that there were --

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. Very well. I'm not going

13 to insist.

14 Mr. McCloskey, you may continue.

15 JUDGE WALD: I have one question. General, to your knowledge, was

16 General Zivanovic at the regular command post in Vlasenica most of the

17 week from the 13th through the 17th, or did he, to your knowledge, come

18 and go? Did he show up there every day, or do you know whether he was

19 there most of the time, in Vlasenica, at the command post, General

20 Zivanovic?

21 A. General Zivanovic was the commander of the corps.

22 JUDGE WALD: I understand that.

23 A. He had the right to choose where he would be. So I myself don't

24 know where he was at the time, whether he was at the command post at

25 Vlasenica all the time or some other spot in the area of responsibility of

1 the Drina Corps.

2 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

3 A. That was up to him.

4 JUDGE WALD: I understand that. My next question is: What would

5 the usual army procedure be if a communique or a report comes to the

6 command post and the commander is not there? What would the procedure

7 be? Let it just stay until he comes? Would it go to the next in command,

8 which, under your argument, was yourself, who was still the deputy

9 commander and Chief of Staff, or would it be sent on to him wherever he

10 was? What would happen to a report that came to the command post if the

11 commander was not there?

12 A. At all events, these reports and communiques had to reach the

13 commander, and I was involved in my assignment towards Zepa. I was busy

14 with that. And it is quite understandable that they would not have

15 informed me about that except for the Corps Commander who was there. He

16 would be informed and he would take steps, whether he was at the command

17 post or somewhere around in the area of responsibility of the Bratunac

18 Brigade, Milici Brigade, Zvornik Brigade, or whatever, Birac Brigade or

19 Vlasenica Brigade. I don't know.

20 JUDGE WALD: So your answer, if I understand it, is that whoever

21 the commander was, if he wasn't at the command post when a report or a

22 communique of some importance came, whoever was on duty would take steps

23 to get it to him, wherever he was; is that right?

24 A. Yes. If it was urgent, it would be dispatched immediately. If it

25 wasn't that urgent, then it could wait for the commander's return and then

1 be handed to him.

2 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] General, you said that it was

4 quite understandable that the reports or communiques did not reach the

5 forward command post, but was it understandable that no information

6 reached you with respect to the situation that was evolving? When you

7 said "understandable," I'm using your own words. I'm using the term

8 "understandable."

9 A. Yes, I understand. It was understandable if the Corps Commander

10 was there and present and following and monitoring the situation, and the

11 Corps Commander knew full well where I was, where I was engaged, and what

12 problems I was facing with respect to my assignment for Zepa. So it was

13 not logical to burden me with that if he himself was there, because we

14 were able to pull out a portion of the Zvornik Brigade and, pursuant to

15 orders from the Corps Commander, return them back to the area of

16 responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade. Therefore, the Zvornik Brigade no

17 longer existed towards Zepa. All its forces were down there.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, General. I was speaking

19 about understandability with respect to reports and communiques. You said

20 that it was understandable. Now, I insisted upon the fact that was it

21 understandable that no information reached you? You said that that was

22 understandable. It didn't reach you, the commander, at the forward

23 command post?

24 A. I'll repeat what I said. There was -- the Zvornik Brigade was not

25 there any longer.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, General. Never mind. I'm

2 not going to repeat my question.

3 Please continue, Mr. McCloskey.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY:

5 Q. General Krstic, on the 17th of July in the Zepa operation, would

6 you have liked to have had Vinko Pandurevic back assisting you in that

7 operation?

8 A. No. Why? I had enough troops for the operation towards Zepa.

9 Q. Vinko Pandurevic and his unit were part of the original troops

10 that were sent down there, and they, as we know, had to be pulled back

11 right as the operation was going. So are you saying today you didn't need

12 him back at all?

13 A. They were not pulled out in the midst of the operation but at the

14 very beginning of the operation. And aside from the pullout of that part

15 of the Zvornik Brigade -- I mean, apart from them. I had enough forces

16 for the purposes of my operation towards Zepa.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 652A. And this is a 17

18 July intercept between Bedem, Krstic, and the name Veletic is mentioned

19 but cannot be heard, according to this document.

20 Q. General Krstic, what is the code name Bedem?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. And are you aware of a Colonel Veletic that was part of the Drina

23 Corps?

24 A. Colonel Veletic was Chief of Artillery with the Drina Corps, if

25 that indeed is the same person.

1 Q. There's another Colonel Veletic, isn't there?

2 A. It's a very common surname.

3 Q. You had a unit in the Drina Corps called the 4th Drinski Brigade?

4 A. Yes. It was a temporary formation which was not part of the

5 overall structure.

6 Q. Was Colonel Veletic in command of that brigade?

7 A. I don't remember. He may have been. As I said, it was a

8 temporary formation which was -- which would be established if necessary.

9 That was the unit that I found when I came back from my treatment.

10 Q. And that's the same Colonel Veletic that you mentioned was the

11 Chief of Artillery, Colonel Stojan Veletic?

12 A. Yes. Colonel Stojan Veletic is Chief of Artillery.

13 Q. Did you ever have a communication -- excuse me. Did you ever want

14 Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic to return to his unit?

15 A. I really don't know anything about the fact that Lieutenant

16 Colonel Vlacic was outside of his brigade.

17 Q. Could you step to the diagram that we have with the pointer and

18 look over the far side of it. The big exhibit is 28/1. And could you

19 look where we have noted on the far right-hand bottom the 4th Drinski

20 Brigade Commander Colonel Stojan Veletic and the Chief of Staff Lieutenant

21 Colonel Ljubomir Vlacic. Do you see them and can you point those out?

22 A. Yes. That's what's written here.

23 Q. Is that structure correct? Does this help refresh your

24 recollection?

25 A. Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic was the Chief of Staff of the 1st Birac

1 Brigade, and I don't know anything about him being on this post, that is,

2 the Chief of Staff of this temporary brigade, especially in that period of

3 time, that is, at the time a breakthrough was carried out by the

4 28th Division and an attack launched by the 2nd Corps of the BH army from

5 the direction of Tuzla towards the area where Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic

6 was.

7 Q. If you could go to the other end of the diagram and you'll see the

8 organigramme for the Birac Brigade, and we see Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic

9 there also.

10 On July 17th, can you tell us -- can you point out on the far left

11 side on the bottom again is the Birac.

12 A. Yes, the Birac Brigade.

13 Q. You can take a seat. Thank you, General.

14 On 17 July, what was the -- what were the duties of Lieutenant

15 Colonel Vlacic?

16 A. Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic was the Chief of Staff of the 1st Birac

17 Brigade.

18 Q. And did you -- was he working in the Sarajevo-Romanija area with

19 the 4th Drinski Brigade on the 17 July?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to Exhibit 661A.

22 Q. Now, this is an intercept of 17 July. It's the date that the

23 mobilisation order was signed by you that we talked about yesterday. And

24 this is a conversation between a general who is at Zlatar, which we know

25 to be the Drina Corps headquarters in Vlasenica.

1 On 17 July, did you order that Colonel Popovic report to the

2 forward command post in Krivaca?

3 A. No.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 662/A bis.

5 Q. This again is a 17 July conversation at 1244 hours between "X" and

6 a Trbic. In reading this, does this refresh your recollection as to any

7 Trbic involved with you at the time?

8 A. No.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 664/A bis, another

10 intercept, 17 July, making reference to what appears to be the previous

11 two intercepts where the orders are changed again to let the person finish

12 the work up there.

13 Q. Are you familiar with the work that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was

14 doing on the afternoon of 17 July at Branjevo farm?

15 A. No, not at all. I don't know that.

16 Q. Do you recall the evidence, the aerial imagery on 17 July of all

17 the bodies on the field at Branjevo farm with a bulldozer working, digging

18 a big hole where bodies were later pulled out of?

19 A. I cannot recall all of the details on all mass graves that were

20 testified about by witnesses, the survivors, but I probably heard about

21 this one.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 649/A.

23 This is an order that I know you're familiar with, General, dated

24 17 July, from commander of the VRS, Colonel General Ratko Mladic, and it

25 is to the Drina Corps command, for information 1st Zvornik Brigade, 1st

1 Bratunac Brigade, 1st Milici Brigade, 67th PV. And it's entitled

2 "Integration of Operations to Crush Lagging Muslim Forces." And I would

3 direct your attention to the first paragraph.

4 Q. And can you briefly tell us your theory of what this document

5 means?

6 A. I have already provided an explanation of this document. I can

7 link it with the time when General Mladic ordered that the attack be

8 continued and that the forces enter the town of Srebrenica. Also, with

9 his very explicit words addressed to the Bratunac Brigade command, when

10 he -- when Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic said to General Mladic that it

11 was not such a good idea to go to Zepa, because they didn't know the

12 whereabouts of the 28th Brigade, and when he said, in very explicit terms,

13 that that was only his concern. And as to the concern of Lieutenant

14 Colonel Popovic, that was Zepa, and that he had enough forces to command

15 over in that area, and also with the presence of Colonel Beara in that

16 area, together with his assistant.

17 In view of all I have said, I think this order can be placed in

18 the same context, that is, the order whereby General Mladic places all of

19 the units in that area under the command of the command group of the Main

20 Staff, which was supposed to coordinate the activities of all the forces

21 engaged in that area. He also designated the command post, that is, where

22 those forces would be commanded from, which was the command post of the

23 military police battalion in Nova Kasaba.

24 Q. When you say this is an indication that he has now taken command

25 over the forces in these areas, what areas in particular?

1 A. The areas of Milici, Bratunac, and Zvornik.

2 Q. All right. I would direct your attention to paragraph 1, which is

3 the paragraph that involves Zvornik:

4 "Send three officers, Colonels Nedo Trkulja, Milovan Stankovic,

5 and Bogdan Sladojevic, from the GS VRS to the command of the 1st Zvornik

6 Brigade to assist in the joining of the VRS and MUP forces."

7 Are you telling us that this language, sending these fellows to

8 the Zvornik Brigade to assist is actually placing them under -- over

9 command of these forces?

10 A. Well, further down in the text --

11 Q. If you could answer my question --

12 A. That can be clearly seen from the text that follows.

13 Q. Could I get a "yes" or "no" answer to that, General Krstic? And

14 then, please, you can explain it. And my question was: --

15 A. Yes. Yes. It places it under the command.

16 Q. Could you explain that? Have you already?

17 A. I believe that I have already explained that. So in the further

18 text of this order, you can clearly see that.

19 Q. I'll continue to read:

20 "After mentioning these three people, sending it to the 1st

21 Zvornik Brigade to assist in the joining of the VRS and MUP forces, the

22 planning and coordination of combat operations to block, crush, and

23 destroy lagging Muslim forces in the wider areas of Kamenica ..."

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I note it's break time.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, and you're quite right,

1 Mr. McCloskey. We are going to have a one-hour break at this point.

2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 1.17 p.m.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. McCloskey. You may

3 continue.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. I'd like to go paragraph 2 of Exhibit 649A and read it.

6 "The team from the VRS GS shall assess the situation on the

7 brigade's front line and in the rear, the available forces, and hear out

8 the proposal and opinion of the commander of the 1st Zvornik Brigade, on

9 the basis they draw up a plan together with the brigade commander to comb

10 the terrain, block, crush, and destroy the straggling part of armed Muslim

11 groups in the wider area of Kamenica, Cerska and Udric."

12 Now, General Krstic, the first paragraph talks about assisting in

13 the planning and coordination of operations and the second one says get

14 together and draw up a plan together. How do you conclude that that means

15 anything but what those words are saying, assist in joining, working

16 together?

17 A. It says here inter alia to listen to the proposal and opinion of

18 the commander of the 1st Zvornik Brigade and together with him to draw up

19 a plan, together with the brigade commander, to comb the terrain. And

20 when there is a plan and somebody -- a superior officer for a task of this

21 kind, then it is quite normal that the officer from the Main Command need

22 not accept the proposal if they do not agree. So it is up to him. He has

23 the final word, the final say.

24 Q. You read all that into these two paragraphs?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now in paragraph 3 there's a specific reference. "I hereby

2 appoint Lieutenant Colonel Keserovic, the officer for Military Police in

3 the GS VRS Security Administration, as the Commander of all the

4 aforementioned forces during the conduct of the aforementioned task,"

5 referring to the Bratunac area, not the Zvornik area.

6 In that paragraph there is a specific reference, so you don't have

7 to read in who's commander of the forces, but on paragraphs 1 and 2 you're

8 reading in that someone is the commander; is that right?

9 A. It is Lieutenant Colonel Keserovic, because in point 3 -- in

10 paragraph 3 it can be clearly seen that General Mladic is ordering the

11 units which are mentioned in the text, the 1st Bratunac, 1st Milici

12 Brigade, the 67th Regiment and so on.

13 "The battalion of the police, the Protection Regiment, the MUP

14 forces engaged in the wider area of Bratunac, Milici and Drinjaca will

15 comb the territory," et cetera. That means he is issuing orders to all

16 the units, which bears out my former position and stand and opinion in

17 response and answer to your question.

18 Q. Well, I think it's very clearly written there that Colonel

19 Keserovic is the Commander of those Bratunac units. You're not suggesting

20 that Colonel Keserovic is the Commander of the Zvornik units, are you?

21 A. The commander of all the forces mentioned. "It says in executing

22 the task and determine somebody from the security department, the Main

23 Staff, Lieutenant Colonel Keserovic." So it refers to all the units

24 mentioned in paragraph 3 at the beginning. And it is General Mladic who

25 is issuing the order, the assignment.

1 Q. So Colonel Keserovic is not under the command of the forces in

2 Zvornik, just the ones mentioned in paragraph 3?

3 A. Yes. And further in the text it states that he will be in charge

4 of the operations towards Cerska, further engagement towards Cerska, and

5 shall propose a plan to General Mladic. And Cerska is in the area of

6 responsibility of Udric and the Zvornik Brigade.

7 Q. He has no forces from the Zvornik Brigade as part of that

8 paragraph, does he?

9 A. That is not specifically stated in paragraph 3. It doesn't say

10 the Zvornik Brigade. But if at the top it says that he should hear the

11 Commander of the Zvornik Brigade and his proposal, that is implied,

12 because Cerska and Udric are within the area of responsibility of the

13 Zvornik Brigade.

14 Q. And this says, "An order for further engagement towards Cerska

15 shall be proposed to me by Lieutenant Colonel Keserovic." So that is mere

16 proposal at this stage on July 17th. In fact, it's not a proposal yet,

17 it's a mere suggestion to make a proposal.

18 A. Yes. It is an order because it says "shall be proposed." That is

19 an order.

20 Q. Now, the task in paragraph 3 is to take effect when?

21 A. From the 17th of July.

22 Q. So prior to the 17th of July, in particular the 16th of July, we

23 learned yesterday that Colonel Blagojevic was in command of these same

24 forces and had actually inspected them and given them tasks; is that

25 correct? To simplify the question, 17th is Keserovic, 16th is

1 Blagojevic.

2 A. Colonel Blagojevic was the commander of the forces in the area

3 that I designated in my earlier testimony.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't have any other questions on this document,

5 Your Honours.

6 If we could now go to Exhibit 688/A -- 680/A, excuse me. And this

7 is an 18 July intercept at 0716 hours; participants: General Krstic,

8 Sergeant Posaljak, Colonel Cerovic.

9 Q. Do you know of a Sergeant Posaljak at the Drina Corps headquarters

10 in Vlasenica?

11 A. I don't remember that surname.

12 Q. And we've spoken of Colonel Cerovic before, and by this intercept

13 on 18 in the morning, you are looking for Colonel Cerovic, who appears to

14 be having his breakfast, and you tell him to leave his breakfast, "to put

15 him on quickly, man." And the person says, "Understood, General, sir."

16 And you say, "On 385."

17 Again, this is the extension we've heard before. Does this help

18 refresh your recollection as to the extension you had on July 13 and

19 beyond in 1995?

20 A. No, I don't remember at all that that was that extension.

21 Q. As we go to the second page in the English, making some commands

22 and some statements, and you say, "And, well, pay special attention to the

23 west of you." Cerovic says, "Roger." You say, "I hope everything is okay

24 down there with Vinko." Cerovic says, "It is. I talked to Vinko last

25 night. He'll send an additional report today. He stabilised everything

1 he was supposed to do."

2 Now, this is the same Cerovic that came to Krivaca to brief you,

3 is that right, or there is a Cerovic that came to brief you in Krivaca?

4 A. Colonel Cerovic, assistant to the commander for moral guidance,

5 religious and legal matters.

6 Q. And we're talking about 18 July, and Vinko Pandurevic did, in

7 fact, send an interim daily combat report on 18 July. General, are you

8 okay to answer that question? Did you get the question?

9 A. I didn't hear the question.

10 Q. On July 18th Vinko Pandurevic did, in fact, send to the command of

11 the Drina Corps an interim combat report. You've referred to it

12 previously and it's been discussed previously. Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes, but it didn't arrive at the forward command post of Krivaca.

14 I saw that report here for the first time.

15 Q. Now, according to this document, you say also that "We understand

16 each other. This is not a secured line," and so on. Did you know that

17 when you spoke over the radio on -- or the telephone on the 18th of July

18 that you may be speaking over an open line?

19 A. I wouldn't caution anybody whether it was an open or protected

20 line. I would have to know that in advance and not have to caution

21 anybody of that.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 694/A. This is a 19

23 July intercept at 0812 hours, between Colonel Cerovic and a person by the

24 name of Vinko. Now, the areas mentioned in the initial part of the

25 intercept, "They are up there in Crni Vrh, over there at Potocani,

1 Planinci, the part towards Baljkovica." All those areas I just mentioned

2 are all within the Zvornik Brigade's area of responsibility; is that

3 correct?

4 A. I only know where Baljkovica is, whereas there are a lot of Crni

5 Vrh, places called Crni Vrh. There are a lot of features that are called

6 Crni Vrh in the area. All I know is about Baljkovica.

7 Q. And where is Baljkovica?

8 A. In the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade.

9 Q. That's the famous -- now famous location where many Muslims and

10 many Serbs died on July 16th?

11 A. Well, from the testimonies of the witnesses and from the documents

12 that I have seen here, it would appear so, yes.

13 Q. Have you not been to the command room of the Drina Wolves and seen

14 the plaque for the four Drina Wolves that died on 16 July 1995 in

15 Baljkovica?

16 A. Not at all. I never saw that.

17 Q. Were there still Muslim stragglers in the area of Baljkovica on 19

18 July, as far as you've learned?

19 A. I don't know that.

20 Q. Did you make an order around this time period of 19 July to stop

21 shift rotations?

22 A. I don't remember whether I gave any orders in that regard or not.

23 Q. There's a mention of a shift for Trnovo. What is a shift

24 rotation, and how would it -- how would Trnovo have fit into that?

25 A. I can't remember that.

1 Q. Generally speaking, do sometimes Drina Corps units get shifted to

2 rotations of duty outside the Drina Corps area of responsibility, such as

3 Trnovo, areas in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and others?

4 A. I know that the Bratunac Brigade later on was sent to the area of

5 responsibility of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in its entirety in the

6 Trnovo area and placed under the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

7 Q. But you recall making no orders about shift rotations at about

8 this time period?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And then as we go down farther on this, Vinko says, "No,

11 seriously. I've sent you a report yesterday. You could see what kind of

12 losses we sustained." Now, do you recall the 18 of July interim combat

13 report was, in fact, the report that listed the severe losses suffered by

14 the Zvornik Brigade, was it not?

15 A. That can be seen here from the documents.

16 Q. So that's true; the 18th of July interim combat report did have

17 the losses sustained by the Zvornik Brigade?

18 A. Yes, but I said that I never -- the report never reached me at the

19 Krivaca forward command post. I later learnt, and I have a list of the

20 casualties, the soldiers that died and the officers from the Zvornik

21 Brigade in the area.

22 Q. And the next sentence from Cerovic, Colonel Cerovic responding to

23 that, "Yes, and I presented that to Krstic and wrote him special based on

24 your interim and daily reports."

25 Did you receive a special report that incorporated Vinko

1 Pandurevic's interim combat reports of July 15th and July 18th?

2 A. I never received a report like that at all, no.

3 Q. So how do you respond to this being written here?

4 And I can call your attention -- I know you're reviewing the copy

5 of the handwritten document that was written on the child's notebook. How

6 did it come to pass, in your view that, these words could be written on

7 the notebook paper?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Can you think of any possible way a Muslim intercept operator

10 could have thought up these words to -- for any reason?

11 A. I don't know.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to the next exhibit, OTP Exhibit

13 698A bis. This is a 19 July document between Krstic and Jevdjevic, 2157

14 hours.

15 Q. To remind us about Jevdjevic, do you have a comms person called

16 Jevdjevic?

17 A. I have already said countless times that it was the Commander of

18 the Communications Battalion that was at the forward command post of both

19 Pribicevac and Krivaca.

20 Q. And according to this conversation, did you have any telephone

21 conversations between yourself and your comms person Jevdjevic within the

22 Zepa operation zone?

23 A. I don't remember that I had any conversation whatsoever, except

24 for with the radio relay station RUP 12.

25 Q. Was Jevdjevic with you at the forward command post on July 19,

1 under your theory?

2 A. Yes. Yes, he was with me at the 23rd command post, but when this

3 message was intercepted, I was already sleeping, staying with my wife's

4 family, and there is no telephone there at all. At that time there was no

5 telephone there.

6 Q. Did you ever order 200 men to be needed for the Zepa operation as

7 noted in this intercept?

8 A. No. We had enough of our own forces. We needed no

9 reinforcement.

10 Q. Down at the bottom of the English page there's a comment about

11 Blagojevic and Srna should be called to come here. Was Srna a nickname or

12 a shortened name for Colonel Andric?

13 A. I heard that from Mr. Ruez, and I said perhaps they called him --

14 they referred to him like that while he was the Commander of the Birac

15 Brigade.

16 Q. And there's a mention to a Jokic up in the front of the document,

17 and you mentioned earlier that there is a Predrag Jokic has a Colonel in

18 the Corps Operations Department; is that right?

19 A. That is Predrag Jocic and not Jokic. With a "C", not a "K".

20 Q. Thank you, General.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now if we could go to Exhibit 789A, and if we

22 could give the General a transcript in 789B.

23 Your Honours, this is a transcript of a tape recording that was

24 provided to the Defence last night. This is a tape recording that the

25 Prosecution received from the 2nd Corps forces of Bosnia. In addition to

1 the transcript of this tape, we have two notebooks with handwritten --

2 handwritten accounts of this conversation, and with that foundation, it is

3 the Prosecution's submission that this is a reliable and credible

4 conversation and that we would lay the full foundation for this on -- in

5 our case in rebuttal.

6 Q. And, General, I'd like to read this to you first and then we will

7 play the tape and then I'll ask you some questions about it.

8 JUDGE WALD: Can you tell me the date?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: August -- it's been identified from the notebooks,

10 Your Honour, as 2 August 1995. Thank you for asking.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see Mr. Petrusic on his feet.

12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are not

13 challenging that the Defence, during yesterday afternoon, received this

14 written text, the text of the conversation, as well as the audio

15 cassette. However, the notebooks that are being mentioned by

16 Mr. McCloskey, to which he refers as a possible authentic proof of the

17 verisimilitude and credibility of this conversation as well as a date,

18 which is the 2nd of August, the Defence has not received, and we,

19 therefore, consider that on the basis of this assertion, the claim made by

20 the Prosecutor, we cannot conclude with any certainty whether that is

21 precisely taken from the notebook that he has mentioned. And experience

22 has taught us, on the basis of the proceedings so far, that when it comes

23 to the intercepts, then their confirmation and authenticity was

24 ascertained in a different fashion, and that was by hearing people who

25 intercepted the messages. We heard from them.

1 The Prosecutor has also said that he would be playing this tape,

2 audio cassette, and with respect to that, I don't know how the tape is

3 going to be played, whether the original, that is to say, the copy that

4 was given to us, or perhaps what Mr. McCloskey talked to us about

5 yesterday afternoon. He mentioned a modified version, that it is a video

6 version, in fact, of this cassette. But I should like to reserve the

7 right to take the floor again once we hear your ruling with respect to the

8 issue I have raised.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. It's my understanding, and I

11 was there, that we provided counsel with the copies of the handwritten

12 notebook accounts that they're referring to. We didn't provide them the

13 entire notebook, as we have never provided the entire notebooks, as you're

14 aware, but we did provide them with the photocopied version of the

15 handwritten accounts from the notebook.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And the Defence was able to

17 verify and to actually see the original?

18 A. They did not ask last night, Mr. President, and if they had, we

19 would have certainly shown them to them.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Sorry. I interrupted you. You

21 did not finish, Mr. McCloskey.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I said, Your Honour, we -- we did provide them the

23 photocopies of the portions, but they did not ask to see the originals.

24 Had they, we would have -- well, we would have tried to dig them out of

25 evidence. I believe they wanted to see the whole notebook, to which we

1 said no.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, there has been

3 another aspect to the problem which was raised by Mr. Petrusic, the issue

4 of the cassette that you were going to play. He mentioned a modified

5 version. How do you respond to that?

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I explained to counsel last night that we

7 had -- what I provided them in the cassette format was a copy from the

8 original reel to reel, and that we had placed that cassette format as is

9 the -- what has become the habit in litigation that I have been involved

10 in, we have placed that audio on a video, and we have subtitled the video

11 so that when the words are heard on the audio, you can see them spelled

12 out. So you have some idea about the emphasis of the language even

13 though, obviously, it will be in the B/C/S language.

14 In that regard, in order to identify who is speaking, there's --

15 when General Krstic is speaking, there's a little photograph of

16 General Krstic, and when Dragan Obrenovic is speaking, there is a little

17 picture of Dragan Obrenovic.

18 Now, this is a somewhat long conversation between some

19 unidentified people and other parties, Jevdjevic at the end of it. We

20 have two versions of it on the audio and video that has the whole

21 conversation, and we have another version that merely has the part where

22 General Krstic was involved in. And what I told counsel is that we

23 intended to just play the audio and the video part that included

24 General Krstic, but, of course, they would have the full tape of the full

25 conversation and the transcripts that go along with it. And that was the

1 plan and that's what we discussed, and I don't understand the

2 misunderstanding, but we can try to work it out.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm going to go back

6 to the notebooks and the explanation provided by Mr. McCloskey that that

7 was not a practice and that we didn't request that. During the

8 Prosecution case it was customary for us to receive photocopies of the

9 texts, and we have no problem with that, regardless of the time framework

10 and when we actually receive them. If the Chamber should adopt the

11 position that this intercepted conversation should serve as the foundation

12 for the question by my learned colleague from the Prosecution, the

13 question that he is going to ask to General Krstic, then in that case,

14 since we do not yet have the authenticity confirmed of that intercepted

15 conversation, and as long as we don't have the authenticity confirmed of

16 the cassette, we do not believe that it is possible and admissible to make

17 a new exhibit, that is, a videotape, on the basis of two pieces of

18 evidence that have not yet been confirmed, that is, the transcript of the

19 intercepted conversation and the cassette itself. It is true that on this

20 cassette a voice can be heard, and quite distinct, and it is louder than

21 other voices.

22 I can also understand the Chamber and my learned colleague from

23 the Prosecution, since this cassette is in B/C/S, that they are not going

24 to understand the contents of the conversation but that they will have the

25 transcript in front of them, that is, in case -- if only the audio

1 cassette is played. Therefore, any playing of the videotape would

2 constitute actually a third exhibit on the basis of these as yet

3 unconfirmed exhibits, not authenticated. So the Chamber will be able to

4 see that the voice that can be heard, that is louder than other voices,

5 that that voice is, according to the allegations by the Prosecution, the

6 voice of Major Obrenovic.

7 So what I want to know, what I should like to ask you is: Is the

8 purpose of playing of this cassette for all of us in the courtroom, and

9 the public as well, here, or rather recognise maybe the voice of General

10 Krstic or some other individual? If that is indeed the case, if that is

11 the purpose of the playing of the tape, then this kind of information can

12 only be confirmed by an expert. And when I say "an expert," I'm referring

13 to a professional from the relevant branch, with the relevant expertise,

14 who would be able to listen to the cassette and to say with a certain

15 degree of certainty that that is indeed the voice of such-and-such a

16 person, that is, the voice of General Krstic.

17 Let me conclude. The Defence is not going to contest, is not

18 going to object to the playing of the audio cassette but, of course, of

19 its original copy, that is, of the material which was taken from the

20 equipment which was used by the BH army to intercept these conversations.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, I think that

22 there are certain new elements in the response of Mr. Petrusic which might

23 justify something that you have brought up. Do you want to offer any

24 further comments to what Mr. Petrusic has just said, or ...

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, briefly. Earlier --

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. McCloskey.

2 Before you respond, I myself need some clarification. I don't know about

3 my colleagues. But I should like to know whether the Defence has had the

4 opportunity to hear the original version of the recording.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Your Honour, they have not, but they did not

6 ask last night either.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, yesterday --

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] There is another question, I'm

10 sorry, that I have. Do you have the recording, that is, the audio

11 recording, of all intercepted conversations that you have presented here?

12 I believe that the answer is no, but I should like to hear you anyway.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: The answer to that, Your Honour, is no. It's my

14 understanding there are a few audio recordings of a few of the intercepts,

15 and I am trying to check, as we speak, on if any of them were used in

16 evidence. But the initial study into this showed that while there were a

17 few intercepts that we didn't find were relevant that were on tape, that

18 this particular conversation was the one conversation of our relevant

19 material that we had. Now, there may be some that there are additional

20 tapes for. I'm trying to find that out as soon as possible.

21 Now, in response to Mr. Petrusic, I believe it was yesterday I

22 asked General Krstic if he ordered the killings of any Muslims between the

23 dates of July 11th and November 1st. I also asked him if he ever made an

24 order to take no prisoners between those dates. As you'll clearly see

25 from the transcript on this intercept, General Krstic three times tells

1 Dragan Obrenovic, in response to Obrenovic's statement that he has

2 captured more, he says three times that "Kill them all. Not one should be

3 left alive. Kill them all." And this is meant --

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We will see.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- as an impeachment --

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We'll see, Mr. McCloskey.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: What this is delivered for at this point is to

8 impeach the statement of General Krstic saying he made no such orders. I

9 offer this with the firm belief and the foundation that this material is

10 credible and reliable, and we will back it up and prove it, like we have

11 each and every other important intercept in this case, and I would never

12 offer anything like this unless I thought we could do that.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me consult with my

14 colleagues.

15 JUDGE WALD: Just one second. I don't quite understand. You've

16 had this for a while or you just got a hold of it yourself recently?

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. We've had this for a while. In fact, Your

18 Honour, you may recall that there was a -- one of the witnesses made

19 reference to something and it was clear that there was something else out

20 there.

21 JUDGE WALD: Okay. I don't remember that. But anyway, you've

22 had -- but for strategic reasons or whatever, you have not laid the same

23 kind of foundation yet for this document that you did for all those other

24 intercepts; right?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Not no, yet, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE WALD: Not yet. But you're telling us that you're going to

2 do that, in your rebuttal case, is it, or ...

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Absolutely, Your Honour, if the General

4 denies the conversation, and then of course that would be -- then that

5 would be appropriate.

6 JUDGE WALD: So you're not seeking -- I'm just trying to get this

7 straight now. You're not seeking to introduce this now as an exhibit --

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.

9 JUDGE WALD: -- the same way that you introduced all those other

10 intercepts as exhibits?

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. It's different. We will mark this as an

12 exhibit. We will have it numbered as an exhibit.

13 JUDGE WALD: What you're seeking to do now, if I understand you,

14 is to use this as the basis for impeachment the way we use witness

15 statements and all kinds of things as impeachment, some of which -- most

16 of which don't eventually get admitted but some of which may eventually.

17 I'm just trying to put it into its perspective. Is that roughly ...

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. That's precisely what we're

19 doing, and as --

20 JUDGE WALD: I understand what follows from that. And so then my

21 last question would be, from what Mr. Petrusic said, is: He said he

22 wouldn't object to the audio cassette being played. What's the problem

23 with doing it that way?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can play the audio.

25 JUDGE WALD: I'm just asking you what your problem is with what he

1 said.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's much less communicative to the trier of fact.

3 JUDGE WALD: But he does have -- he does have some kind of -- you

4 don't want to admit it, I'm sure, but he does have some kind of point

5 about building on, building on, building, if nothing has yet been actually

6 admitted.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I understand that, and --

8 JUDGE WALD: Which would you prefer? Just to cross-examine him on

9 the basis of this as a potential impeachment tool or to play the audio?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well --

11 JUDGE WALD: For the same or both?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, at a minimum, I would like to play the audio

13 as well, so he can hear it and he can evaluate it.

14 JUDGE WALD: Subject to later on, if it turns out that way,

15 introducing it as an authenticated exhibit in the usual way?

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely, and with our full intention to do

17 that.

18 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: With the witness who will be here that wrote in

20 the notebook.

21 JUDGE WALD: Right. I just wanted to clarify that.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. Can we -- should we play it without

23 expertise or with expertise? What is your response?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, as I mentioned to counsel last night,

25 we have given the copy of this audio to a voice expert, and we have been

1 trying for months now to get a final answer from the expert. And it is my

2 understanding, and you'll be able to hear from the video, the voice of

3 General Krstic is very slight. However, we do have an official

4 translation of -- official transcript and translation done by the unit,

5 the Translation Unit here. So it's clearly audible enough to get a full

6 and accurate transcription on. However, we have not had a complete answer

7 from the expert, except the few times I've been able to reach him over the

8 phone and it's based on my communications with him. I do continue to

9 believe that this is -- this tape is reliable, though I have not received

10 the official report yet, so I'm hesitant to say a thing about that.

11 JUDGE WALD: And you don't have any problem if later on, if you

12 try to put this into the official record, with the fact that the Defence

13 clearly has every right to raise any objection that it feels --

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely.

15 JUDGE WALD: -- it can?

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that is one of the main reasons we met with

17 them last night to give this to them. I offered them a cassette tape in

18 case they needed it to take with them and they had one. So that wasn't a

19 problem.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me consult with my

21 colleagues. But I see that we're getting close to our usual time for a

22 break. Perhaps we should have a break at this point. Fifteen-minute

23 break.

24 --- Recess taken at 2.05 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 2.20 p.m.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber will, therefore,

2 accept to listen to the recording as a means of impeachment of the

3 testimony of General Krstic, with the reservations made by the Defence.

4 However, I'm somewhat under the impression that all of the recordings have

5 been admitted with this caveat.

6 So now we're going to listen and watch the video/audio cassette,

7 if we can say it that way. It will be marked for identification, but it

8 is not going to be admitted for the time being.

9 Madam Registrar, the number has already been given, 789.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President. It's 789.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Mr. President. Did you want the audio

12 played --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I just wanted to clarify whether you wanted us to

17 play the audiotape or the videotape with the audio.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Maybe I was not clear enough.

19 We are going to listen to the audiotape. I apologise.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. And I believe they are

21 now set up to play that, though it is very poor quality and I don't think

22 the interpreters are going to be able to do it, but I guess we'll just

23 play it and see what happens.

24 [Audiotape played]

25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:

1 "O: Very good.

2 Y: Yes.

3 O: Where is Zepa?

4 Y: Behind us.

5 O: Hey, listen. Where are you driving Yugoslavia, man?

6 Y: Well, fuck it. That's the agreement.

7 Y: Well ...

8 O: Hello? Hello?

9 X: Just a moment.

10 O: Hey, operator, what's happening, did I lose the line?

11 K: Hello?

12 O: Yes. Yes.

13 K: Is that you, Obrenovic?

14 O: Yes.

15 K: Krstic here.

16 O: How are you General, sir?

17 K: I'm great, and you?

18 O: Thanks to you I am too.

19 K: Way to go, Chief. And how's you're health?

20 O: It's fine, thank God, it's fine.

21 K: Are you working down there?

22 O: Of course we're working.

23 K: Good.

24 O: We've managed to catch a few more, either by gunpoint or in

25 mines.

1 K: Killed them all. God damn it.

2 O: Everything, everything is going according to plan. Yes.

3 K: Single one must be left alive.

4 O: Everything is going according to plan. Everything.

5 K: Way to go, Chief. The Turks are probably listening to us.

6 Let them listen, the motherfuckers.

7 O: Yeah, let them.

8 K: Right. Where is your boss?

9 O: He went up towards you.

10 K: When, today?

11 O: Yes.

12 K: This morning?

13 O: Yes.

14 K: Good. Go on we'll be in touch.

15 O: Can I talk to Jevdjevic for a moment?

16 K: Jevdjevic?

17 O: Yes.

18 K: All right.

19 J: Hello. Yes?

20 O: Listen. Which road should I use to send a truck in your

21 direction to pick up some cattle?

22 J: And where is that?

23 O: Well, I don't know. My boss told me to give you a call

24 because you know where most of them are.

25 J: Well, the others have already grabbed everything.

1 O: And there's nothing left?

2 J: No, not really. Even worse, now their code names are Cowboy 1

3 and Cowboy 2.

4 O: Okay. Where are they? Someone told me somewhere near Milici,

5 right?

6 J: In the place where Legenda often carried out searches, and

7 then further up.

8 O: So I should go up to Milici?

9 J: Yes, to Podravanje and Stublic.

10 O: Uh-huh, to Stublic.

11 J: Yes. You will find them at Stublic.

12 O: Okay.

13 J: You know the frequency and there are soldiers there and lots

14 of sets so you can call.

15 O: Good.

16 J: That's it.

17 O: Good.

18 J: How are you?

19 O: Well, it's okay.

20 J: So long, let's get together sometime.

21 O: Okay. Take care.

22 J: Bye."

23 JUDGE WALD: Could I make a request? Could I just hear the first,

24 say, one minute of that without the translator so I could just hear the

25 voices? With her overtaking, you can't make out anything. Just maybe the

1 first 30 or 40 seconds of it without the translator saying anything, just

2 the audio.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely. And one clarification, the last part

4 of this where there is talk about cattle and cowboys, it's the submission

5 of the Prosecution that they are, in fact, talking about cattle and

6 cowboys, and it's really not part of --

7 JUDGE WALD: Yes. I just want to hear the voices without the

8 overlay just for 30 seconds.

9 [Audiotape played]

10 JUDGE WALD: That's fine. Thank you.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. McCloskey, did you have any special reason to

12 play it with the video?

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just merely to show that -- to give an indication

14 of when the B/C/S language is being spoken so that you could get the

15 impression of the emphasis on the words, sort of like following the

16 bouncing ball in a song. Just so the trier of fact can hear the audio and

17 then see the words. However, it's not necessary, I think, especially with

18 the last playing. We got a very good indication of what this exhibit is.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. .

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey,

21 with your questions.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: General Krstic, did you, on August 2nd, 1995, tell

23 Major Obrenovic to kill the people he captured that day?

24 A. No, Mr. McCloskey. This is 100 per cent montage. On that day I

25 didn't talk to Obrenovic at all. Second, I did not recognise the other

1 participant in the conversation, and especially not my own voice, myself.

2 I repeat: This is a montage, 100 per cent, rigged. I never would have

3 done that on the phone or physically, had he been in my presence. I would

4 never have done that.

5 Q. On July 19th, shortly before this interview -- excuse

6 me -- shortly before this conversation, in an area near Nezuk, we've heard

7 evidence from a survivor of the murder of captured Muslim men. Are you

8 saying this kind of thing did not happen? Are you contesting the July

9 19th evidence of the slaughter of the captured Muslim men?

10 A. I don't know what exhibit that refers to.

11 Q. You don't recall the survivor that testified being captured in the

12 Nezuk area by people with the Krajina Corps patches on their arms and what

13 happened to those ten people or so that were captured?

14 A. I do remember, but I understood that it was during battle, combat.

15 Q. You don't recall the testimony where the 15-year-old boy was taken

16 aside and shot down in cold blood? You thought that was combat?

17 A. I don't remember that particular moment. I would like to see the

18 exhibit, to be shown the exhibit.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 740/A, which is an

20 August 1st combat report from the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

21 Q. General, if you could take a moment to familiarise yourself with

22 that, and if we could zero in on paragraph 3. And in paragraph 3 of the

23 first section:

24 "In the early hours of the morning, a small group of enemy

25 soldiers stumbled into the M/P, in front of the 7th Infantry Battalion's

1 trenches in the Pandurica area, where a few Muslim soldiers were left for

2 dead and wounded."

3 What does the abbreviation M/P mean in this context?

4 A. Minefield.

5 Q. And the previous conversation, Major Obrenovic says that "We've

6 managed to catch a few more," and you say, "Uh-huh," and Obrenovic says,

7 "Either on gunpoints or on mines."

8 A. I've already stated my opinion with regard to the conversation

9 that we have just heard. It was 100 per cent rigged.

10 Q. You say that you were on August 2nd back working in the Drina

11 Corps command post?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. To your knowledge, were there Muslim stragglers from Srebrenica

14 still running around in the woods in the Zvornik area of responsibility?

15 A. Possibly there were in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik,

16 Birac, and Vlasenica Brigade.

17 Q. General, possibly they were, or were there?

18 A. It is possible that there were some.

19 Q. Noting in paragraph 2 of this document:

20 "Main tasks of our units: A company from the 8th Infantry

21 Battalion remains in the Glodansko Brdo area and is working on the

22 organisation of ambush operations. So far they have not observed enemy

23 movements from the direction of Srebrenica."

24 So ambush operations on August 1st are still going on for

25 Srebrenica stragglers, under this document; is that correct?

1 A. From this report, that can be seen. It is a legal operation, a

2 legal action.

3 Q. It also notes that the Chief of Brigade inspected the units of the

4 "R" Battalion in the area. The chief of the brigade is who?

5 A. It refers quite certainly to Colonel Pandurevic.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 741/A. And I merely

7 would like you to note in paragraph 2 that the Chief of Staff inspection

8 of the "R" Battalion and the Student Company is part of the main tasks.

9 So under this document, on August 2nd Dragan Obrenovic would still be

10 active in the Zvornik Brigade area of responsibility?

11 A. Yes. According to this report, he would be there.

12 Q. And the situation in the territory on August 2nd, there's a note

13 that:

14 "In the Glodi-Siroki Put area, an enemy group consisting of five

15 soldiers moving in the Kamenica-Glodi direction was broken up. As the

16 group smashed, three of the enemy soldiers were killed but two managed to

17 flee. The combing of the area is continuing."

18 So based on the information in paragraph 3, there are still Muslim

19 stragglers in the Zvornik Brigade area that are coming in contact with

20 Zvornik Brigade troops?

21 A. From the report, that is evident.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 325A, and if --

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just one moment, Mr. McCloskey.

24 General Krstic, the 2nd of August, on that date, 1995, did you

25 receive and read this report on that date?

1 A. No, I did not receive it. Only if something special is being done

2 is it dispatched to the commander. But there is a collective report that

3 is sent to the commander for his overview.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise,

5 Mr. McCloskey, for the interruption. Please continue.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, the next exhibit is under seal, so if we

7 could briefly go into private session.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us move into private

9 session now. How long do you need, Mr. McCloskey? Roughly speaking.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I hope no more than a few minutes, but there is

11 some information here that could lead us longer.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well.

13 [Private session]

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6 (redacted)

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8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY:

11 Q. Do you recall the phones going down in the Vlasenica area on

12 August 2nd when you were there?

13 A. I don't remember that at all. Telephones were down frequently.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, if we could go through a series of FBIS

15 reports, Exhibit 113/3 is the first one.

16 General, do you recall hearing in the media any reports of

17 suspicious activity or criminal activity happening at Srebrenica after

18 14 July 1995?

19 A. I heard about that over the radio and on television,

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina radio and television.

21 Q. When did you first start hearing about those reports?

22 A. I don't remember when that was.

23 Q. What reports did you hear?

24 A. I don't remember, but they spoke about the disappearance of a

25 large number of people from Srebrenica.

1 Q. General, this is a report of a news item that was received in

2 China, noting that:

3 "The UN Security Council on Friday [14 July] demanded that the

4 Bosnian Serbs respect fully the rights of the civilian population from the

5 Srebrenica and other persons protected under the international

6 humanitarian law.

7 "It asked them to permit access by the International Committee of

8 the Red Cross.

9 "The Council condemned the Bosnian Serbs for their recent conduct

10 in and around the UN safe haven of Srebrenica.

11 "'The Council is deeply concerned among'"

12 Excuse me.

13 "'The Council is deeply concerned about ongoing forced relocation

14 of tens of thousands of civilians from the Srebrenica safe areas to the

15 Tuzla region by the Bosnian Serb party,' said the presidential statement

16 of the Security Council.

17 "'Such a forced relocation is a clear violation of the human

18 rights of the civilian population,' the statement added.

19 "Council reaffirmed that those who had committed or who had

20 ordered the commission of 'ethnic cleansing' would be held individually

21 responsible.

22 "It also reiterated its demand that the Bosnian Serb forces

23 immediately and unconditionally release unharmed all detained persons of

24 the United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR), and that the parties

25 respect fully the safety of all UNPROFOR personnel and ensure their

1 complete freedom of movement ."

2 Did you hear anything about any of this?

3 A. I haven't got that exhibit in Serbian in front of me.

4 Q. That's why I read it. Does that refresh your recollection at

5 all? 17 -- excuse me. 14 July statements from the UN.

6 A. I was in the Zepa area and I had no means by which to hear

7 information of that kind.

8 Q. When you got back did you hear anything?

9 A. I don't remember whether I did or did not.

10 Q. General Krstic, these are major allegations of misconduct directed

11 towards the Drina, which would, in fact, be the Drina Corps, since it was

12 a partial operation in your area. You have no recollection of hearing

13 these international allegations?

14 A. Mr. McCloskey, I cannot say that I heard about it if I did not

15 hear about it. There must be the necessary conditions for me to be able

16 to hear this. Even if I heard it, I don't remember hearing it. I don't

17 know when it was, who issued this announcement, or anything of that kind.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] General Krstic, the question was

19 to know whether after your return from Zepa you happened to learn

20 something with respect to that event which you before were not able to

21 hear. So we're talking about after your return from Zepa.

22 A. Mr. President, I don't remember at all having heard that report or

23 announcement.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue, Mr. McCloskey.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now if we could have Exhibit 114/1. And since

1 General Krstic apparently is -- doesn't have any recollection regarding

2 any of this, I will try to briefly summarise the information and go on to

3 the next one. Actually, I will be reading this one in its entirety. This

4 is another FBIS report, dated July 17th, 1995, from the Balkan States. In

5 particular, it's noted --

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters request that Mr. McCloskey read

7 the report slowly, please.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before continuing,

9 Mr. McCloskey, are you aware of the fact that you should be finished by

10 3.00? Okay?

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I wish I could finish by 3.00 more than anything,

12 Mr. President, and I'm sorry, but there has been much discussion not

13 anticipated for, though I guess we can always anticipate discussion.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We'll take this into consideration,

15 Mr. McCloskey. [Interpretation] I merely wish to remind you.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. The title of this is

17 "Zametica Denies Maltreatment of Srebrenica Muslims," and it comes

18 from -- particularly from Banja Luka Srpska Television in Serbo-Croatian,

19 on 17 July at 1830 hours GMT, and says:

20 "Jovan Zametica, advisor to Radovan Karadzic, the president of

21 the Serb Republic, pointed out the following in today's press release: In

22 the past several days, the international --"

23 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down, Mr. McCloskey.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: "-- media, aided by the Muslim authorities, have

25 been using violent propaganda, unrealistically reporting on the events

1 related to the situation in Srebrenica. The accusations concerning

2 alleged torture, killing, rape, and deportation of Muslim civilians are

3 being repeated without any independent verification. The truth is that

4 none of those accusations has a firm basis. UNPROFOR has been on the

5 ground in Srebrenica the entire time and can confirm the fact that the

6 Muslim civilian population was treated well by the Serbs. Moreover, the

7 stories about civilians being expelled are completely untrue, since their

8 evacuation was arranged beforehand with the representatives of the Muslim

9 civilian authorities. The Muslim authorities demanded that the evacuation

10 be carried out for fear of the Serbs returning to their homes in

11 Srebrenica.

12 "It should be pointed out that the Muslims committed terrible

13 crimes against the Serb civilians in this area. The aim of the Muslim

14 propaganda is to conceal the fact that the Muslim authorities were making

15 the position of their own people worse consciously and on purpose,

16 manipulating the international opinion in the attempt to involve the

17 International Community in the conflict on their side, as an active

18 participant in the conflict."

19 General Krstic, this comes out of Banja Luka, 17 July 1995. You

20 heard nothing about this?

21 A. I am seeing this for the first time here, and hearing it from what

22 you have read.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 113/5. This is a FBIS

24 report from 24 July 1995, entitled "Mazowiecki on Serb Human Rights

25 Abuses," and it talks about Tadeusz Mazowiecki, special UN Human Rights

1 Commission envoy, talking about the concerns of the Srebrenica population

2 of this time period, and that about 7.000 people from Srebrenica were

3 missing and their fate is unknown.

4 Q. So you heard nothing about this either?

5 A. I am hearing it for the first time from you here and now.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the last exhibit, which we do not have to put

7 on the ELMO, is 113/6, dated July 27 [Realtime transcript read in error

8 July 7], 1995, and entitled "Mazowiecki Resigns as Envoy to the Former

9 Yugoslavia," where Mr. Mazowiecki, in a letter to the UN, resigned because

10 he could no longer take part in the fictional defence of human rights in

11 the former Yugoslavia.

12 Q. Did you hear about the resignation of envoy Mazowiecki?

13 A. No, I did not hear of it.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting,

15 Mr. McCloskey, but I think the date of this document was the 27th. On the

16 transcript I think I see 7. Do we need to clarify that point?

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. It should be 27 July 1995.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Please proceed.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I note it's 3.00 p.m. I have a few

20 more documents, none that should be real lengthy. I hope we can finish up

21 within one hour tomorrow morning.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. I was just about to

23 ask you how much more time you needed, and I wanted to speak seriously.

24 We have always spoken seriously, but now let's speak more seriously.

25 You need one hour, you say, one hour to complete everything; is

1 that right? Or are you going to tell us tomorrow that you're going to

2 need an hour and a half?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would plead Mr. Harmon's defence. Lawyers are

4 not reliable on this time frame. Perhaps it's because there are so many

5 other lawyers in the courtroom. I would sincerely try for an hour, but it

6 might take two. We have the article regarding the ceremony of the Drina

7 Wolves and a very short video regarding that ceremony, and we have the

8 full translated article now and a few other documents. But I would

9 certainly hope that two hours would take -- would do it.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I am asking you the question

11 now, because in a moment you'll be saying four hours. If I give you the

12 opportunity, you double. So you say two hours, that that is sufficient;

13 is that right, Mr. McCloskey? It is just for the purpose of organising

14 our work.

15 So let us say two hours. I gave you one hour. You asked for

16 two. Now I give you another opportunity. Two hours to complete your

17 business, Mr. McCloskey. You have this afternoon to organise your

18 material and all your questions and then tomorrow we shall be rounding off

19 within the space of two hours, Mr. McCloskey. Is that agreeable to you?

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I should like to recognise at

22 this point that the Judges have taken up some of your time, and that is

23 why we all -- we're always ready to show understanding for your

24 situation. But I should like to say that you did ask for something and

25 that you had the right to ask for it, and the Judges did take up some of

1 your time. So the Judges are now going to be lenient and give you more

2 time. You are going to get one hour more than you asked for.

3 And for the purpose of organising our work, I think we shall be

4 able to finish the cross-examination of General Krstic by the Prosecutor

5 tomorrow, and as we have already said and discussed -- how shall I put

6 this? To ensure that the witnesses who are waiting -- have been waiting

7 here for some time will be able to go back home, we are going to start off

8 with the testimonies of two witnesses which the Defence has at its

9 disposal, that is to say, tomorrow and Friday and possibly Monday as well,

10 bearing in mind the fact that the right to reply by the Defence and the

11 Judges' questions will take place on Tuesday if we have finished with the

12 witnesses, that is to say, if we have no more witnesses to hear. So

13 throughout Monday we shall be winding up our work, and then on Tuesday

14 we're going to start off with the rejoinder and the questions by the

15 Judges.

16 Is that clear to all parties? Would anybody like to make any

17 observations at this point?

18 Yes, Mr. Petrusic. I see you on your feet.

19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a few days ago, in

20 answer to your question how long the redirect would last after the

21 cross-examination, I told you that this would take approximately one day.

22 However, I should like now to inform the Trial Chamber that in the

23 meantime, the Defence has, shall I say, reorganised itself, and we shall

24 need a much shorter space of time; that is to say, we will be taking up an

25 hour and a half to two hours. And I draw your attention to that to help

1 you in your own plans and organisations and scheduling.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

3 Mr. Harmon, does that organisation seem to you to be convenient?

4 Say "yes," please, so we don't have to lose any time.

5 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. However, I was informed by the

6 Defence that they had one witness who they would like to have the three

7 Judges here, not two Judges, and it was my understanding that that witness

8 would commence on Tuesday.

9 So for purposes of our planning, in light of your direction now,

10 it appears that that witness may start before and that causes some lack of

11 clarity for our planning purposes. So if we could clarify that one point,

12 we would be appreciative.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much. So

14 tomorrow we're going to wind up the cross-examination of General Krstic by

15 the Prosecutor, and we're going to start off with the two witnesses, two

16 witnesses who will be available, and they will be heard by my colleagues.

17 I myself will be absent on Friday and Monday, but my colleagues will be

18 sitting and continuing the proceedings, and we agreed upon that, I think.

19 The witness that the Defence wishes to be heard before a full

20 Trial Chamber can be heard on Tuesday, and after that, we are going to

21 have the redirect by the Defence and the Judges' questions. The objective

22 is to allow the witnesses to go home, those of them who have been waiting

23 here for a long time. I think we agreed on that point, that all parties

24 agreed. So I don't want to repeat what has already been said, but I thank

25 Mr. Harmon for his observations. And there we have it. I think that the

1 situation is clear.

2 We reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.20 to continue with

3 Mr. McCloskey and to wind up within two hours.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.10 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of

6 November, 2000 at 9.20 a.m.

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